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moonglow
Mar 18th 2008, 04:23 PM
A friend just showed me this video on youtube...the intent of this post is NOT to attack this preacher but to open it up for conversation. There are actually several things I would like to address on this video. First John Hagee, in this ad for his new book, is defending Israel and the Jews by saying most did not reject Jesus as the Messiah...then shortly after that says Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah in word or deed. :hmm:

This is not what the bible says:

Matthew 1:1
[ The Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah ] The record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham:

John 4:24-26

24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

There are more of course...but he goes on to say the Jews can't be blamed for what was not offered to them.

Your thoughts on that please?

I would LIKE to just discuss this and not have it go like most posts go when a teacher or preacher's words are brought into question...first I believe we have the right TO question all that lead others spiritually...to heed the warnings Jesus gave us in watching out for false teachers and prophets, etc...but I also don't wish this to be taken as an attack on Hagee...I am not doing this to attack this man, but to try to understand why he is even saying this in the first place. I don't watch him and know little about him...but found this pretty shocking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8khCJTDD44
John Hagee Jesus NOT Messiah(audio|video perfect)



God bless

MikeAD
Mar 18th 2008, 07:35 PM
I heard this a couple of months ago, he said on a TV interview "Jesus wasn't the Messiah" but I think he was referring to the Jews and it was taken out of context.

As in regards to Jesus never saying he was the Messiah, as far as I know, thats true. He said "I am who you say I am" and "the son of Man" but never said he was the Messiah.

I was always taught that he did this because it is truly faith that saves, him saying it could have taken away the faith aspect.

menJesus
Mar 18th 2008, 07:43 PM
I thought he said it on his program - as best as I can remember, he said, "Jesus never said he was - others ( his accusors) said it!" Thats it, more or less...

Actually, I thought I already read about this on a thread here - but, maybe not...

daughter
Mar 18th 2008, 07:50 PM
He asked His disciples who they thought He was, and Peter said, "you are the Messiah..." And Jesus said that flesh and blood had not revealed this to Peter, but the Spirit of God.

So technically, Jesus didn't say that He was the Messiah. And technically, He wasn't annointed by the High Priest with olive oil, and presented to the people as the King. (Though He did suffer at the garden of Gethsemane, which means "olive press" - more on this in another post perhaps.) And He was presented to the High Priest, and to secular authorities, etc.

But although Jesus didn't say He was Messiah, He allowed it to be understood that He was the Messiah. So Hagee is picking nits, I think.

MikeAD
Mar 18th 2008, 07:50 PM
I thought he said it on his program - as best as I can remember, he said, "Jesus never said he was - others ( his accusors) said it!" Thats it, more or less...

Actually, I thought I already read about this on a thread here - but, maybe not...

You are right, did you ever hear him say what I heard? I seem to remember thinking it was out of context when I heard it. It wasn't on TBN it was a news network.

In a similar not: There was a Jewish Philosopher that wrote in the 2nd century that non-Christians really couldn't be punished for not accepting Christ because such a very small percentange of the Human population ever actualy got the chance to make a choice (in his mind). He wrote that even when Jesus was alive, the majority of the Holy Land didn't meet him or witness his miracles. So only those who could really see his miracles could be held responsible by God for accepting or denying.

Thats a terrible job of paraphrasing (im in a rush) just wanted to say that this speech has been going on since the death of Jesus.

Christians have usually held that he never said he was the Messiah, and non-Christians have used that against us.

menJesus
Mar 18th 2008, 08:02 PM
Actually, John Hagee said "Jesus never said He was the messiah! He never claimed to be! His accusors said it - He didn`t say it!"

I think he was trying to impact people with the way he was presenting it - John Hagee does that... ;)

And it WAS on TBN, as I do not have cable... and I have never, ever seen him on a local news program... but thank God, I can get TBN! :)

MikeAD
Mar 18th 2008, 08:04 PM
Actually, John Hagee said "Jesus never said He was the messiah! He never claimed to be! His accusors said it - He didn`t say it!"

I think he was trying to impact people with the way he was presenting it - John Hagee does that... ;)

And it WAS on TBN, as I do not have cable... and I have never, ever seen him on a local news program... but thank God, I can get TBN! :)

No, no I know he said that, it was much publicized when he said it. But Im saying, when discussing his new book he was on either CNBC or headline news and the clip was "Jesus was not the Messiah." I knew, or at least I hoped, that his full sentence was something like "according to many ...Jesus was not the Messiah" or something like that, but on the news it was taken out of context. This sentence from him, has been much discussed in far right blogs/radio shows.

menJesus
Mar 18th 2008, 09:07 PM
No, I don`t have cable and cannot get any news stations except local ones. But I can imagine the negative feedback that came from that statement! :(

Not that JH would care - he`s very outspoken, and I imagine he would enjoy a tussle here and there - hahaha... he`s from Texas, after all... ;) I like the guy.

moonglow
Mar 19th 2008, 12:59 AM
Did you guys watch that short video where he actually says Jesus was not the Messiah in word OR deed? And that its not the Jews fault they rejected Him because He never offered...the ad isn't broken up to use his words out of content. Everything he says goes against scriptures...so I am rather surprised people have no problems with it.

Jesus AGREED with others when they said He was the Messiah or the Son of God and He spend His whole ministry fulfilling the prophesies of the Messiah for the Jews...of reaching out to them..and while many did believe, many also didn't.

Think about this for a minute, why was He put to death in the first place?


I am just rather dumb founded that Hagee said what he said and thought maybe someone that watches him alot could shed some light on this.. this video sure doesn't make me want to watch him! I just figured there must be more to the story here or something...at least I would hope so.

God bless

MikeAD
Mar 19th 2008, 02:36 AM
Did you guys watch that short video where he actually says Jesus was not the Messiah in word OR deed? And that its not the Jews fault they rejected Him because He never offered...the ad isn't broken up to use his words out of content. Everything he says goes against scriptures...so I am rather surprised people have no problems with it.

Jesus AGREED with others when they said He was the Messiah or the Son of God and He spend His whole ministry fulfilling the prophesies of the Messiah for the Jews...of reaching out to them..and while many did believe, many also didn't.

Think about this for a minute, why was He put to death in the first place?


I am just rather dumb founded that Hagee said what he said and thought maybe someone that watches him alot could shed some light on this.. this video sure doesn't make me want to watch him! I just figured there must be more to the story here or something...at least I would hope so.

God bless

Well, when I first heard him say it, I was angry but over time I figure I would give him the benifit of the doubt and hope he was taken out of context. There has been a lot of accusations thrown at him by radio hosts, such as Alex Jones, and I figured I wouldn't bring it up around here since I figured most people would be fans of his.

Edit: sorry, Moonglow I just now saw the link at the bottom of your original Post.

That video is pretty shocking!

moonglow
Mar 19th 2008, 03:00 AM
Well, when I first heard him say it, I was angry but over time I figure I would give him the benifit of the doubt and hope he was taken out of context. There has been a lot of accusations thrown at him by radio hosts, such as Alex Jones, and I figured I wouldn't bring it up around here since I figured most people would be fans of his.

Edit: sorry, Moonglow I just now saw the link at the bottom of your original Post.

That video is pretty shocking!

I try not to be a big fan of any preacher actually..I think its too dangerous anymore. While I have some favorites on the Christian radio station I listen too, there are times I strongly disagree with the things they say...

Anyway I was wonder why no one was commenting on the video link I posted...I guess I put it too far down in my post...they said to be sure and put a description of it in there so I did! lol I will go back and bold it in red and maybe everyone will see it. I was wondering why people were just talking about what they heard on the news over this and not this actual ad he did that I posted.

God bless

th1bill
Mar 19th 2008, 04:12 AM
Moonglow,
.. I went to youtube and viewed the clip there. When I was first converted I litterally consumed the scriptures and I watched John Hagee quite a bit. As time went along he made me more and more uncomfortable, I was studying the scriptures every day and the more I read the more I heard Mr. Hagee go out of context and on occasion he just jumped right off the ship into heresy, as he did in that clip.
.. I also restrain myself from doing the unChristian thing by going after him but I will steer no man in his direction. Lass, I believe your right on the mark in your distrust.

menJesus
Mar 19th 2008, 07:56 AM
I haven`t seen the video clip, nor will I. I do like John Hagee - when he preaches the Word, he`s great! But its like th1bill said - sometimes he takes things out of context... but rather than throw it all out, I have learned to tune out the more radical programs, and listen closely when he preaches the Word!

What else can I do? Most tv preachers are getting off-track in one way or another, nowadays... its really sad to see and hear...

daughter
Mar 19th 2008, 10:17 AM
Oh my, that's really shocking! Jesus was accepted by the disciples as Messiah, and never said, "no... you've got it wrong", but told them that the Spirit of God had revealed that truth.

Is Hagee saying that Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, were lying?

I agree that Jesus has yet to fulfill every Messianic prophecy - but if He's not the Messiah then why are we following Him? If I didn't think Jesus was the Messiah I'd be a Jew, not a Christian. I'm not sure, but I think a combination of sympathy with Israel (itself no sin) and spiritual pride have led Hagee right of into the deep dark bushes.

And there is some truth in what he's saying... Jesus had lots of followers among the Jews who loved Him, and it was a combination of interests between the powers that be that killed Him, not an entire people - unless you mean the entire human race.

But this is disturbing. I'm with Bill on this, if you read scripture a lot of what Hagee says is unnerving.

menJesus
Mar 19th 2008, 10:24 AM
Daughter, thank you! I could not articulate my thoughts here... :(

John Hagee`s "sympathy with Israel" is certainly what is pulling him away from the plain preaching of the Word. Personally, I am praying that he goes back to the Bible-thumping, hell-fire and brimstone preacher that he used to be... :)

moonglow
Mar 19th 2008, 01:53 PM
I haven`t seen the video clip, nor will I. I do like John Hagee - when he preaches the Word, he`s great! But its like th1bill said - sometimes he takes things out of context... but rather than throw it all out, I have learned to tune out the more radical programs, and listen closely when he preaches the Word!

What else can I do? Most tv preachers are getting off-track in one way or another, nowadays... its really sad to see and hear...

menJesus...I want to reassure you that this video ONLY shows hagee talking...no one else is on it and nothing is said against him on the video. Though of course in the description area there is a little comment. The video is only one minute long...it only shows him advertising his new book...that is it. But of course its your choice on whether you watch it or not...I saw your last comment and I understand totally what you are saying. That is what I was saying too...its to the point where in listening to any pastor we have to know what is true and what isn't...preachers and teachers aren't perfect...they mess up...I mess up...as I learn my understanding of certain verses change...but all of us should have the same core beliefs no matter how much we vary on other topics in the bible. Our core beliefs should be that Jesus is the Messiah, is the Son of God, did offer salvation to all men, died for our sins, rose on the third day...and well you know the rest.

I agree with what several said on here, we need to pray for him on this.


th1bill

Moonglow,
.. I went to youtube and viewed the clip there. When I was first converted I litterally consumed the scriptures and I watched John Hagee quite a bit. As time went along he made me more and more uncomfortable, I was studying the scriptures every day and the more I read the more I heard Mr. Hagee go out of context and on occasion he just jumped right off the ship into heresy, as he did in that clip.
.. I also restrain myself from doing the unChristian thing by going after him but I will steer no man in his direction. Lass, I believe your right on the mark in your distrust.

Thanks. I just thought maybe I was missing something with him on this...


daughter Oh my, that's really shocking! Jesus was accepted by the disciples as Messiah, and never said, "no... you've got it wrong", but told them that the Spirit of God had revealed that truth.

Is Hagee saying that Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, were lying?

I agree that Jesus has yet to fulfill every Messianic prophecy - but if He's not the Messiah then why are we following Him? If I didn't think Jesus was the Messiah I'd be a Jew, not a Christian. I'm not sure, but I think a combination of sympathy with Israel (itself no sin) and spiritual pride have led Hagee right of into the deep dark bushes.

And there is some truth in what he's saying... Jesus had lots of followers among the Jews who loved Him, and it was a combination of interests between the powers that be that killed Him, not an entire people - unless you mean the entire human race.

But this is disturbing. I'm with Bill on this, if you read scripture a lot of what Hagee says is unnerving.

Spiritually speaking we all nailed Him to the cross. But yes the Jewish religious leaders did want Him dead...scripture is pretty plain on that! And since they couldn't do it the had to turn to Roman who ruled over them to have it done. This is nothing new though, all of us know this as you can't read the gospels without seeing they were constantly following Him around, accusing Him of things...even flatly says, 'they plotted to kill Him'. The Jewish religious leaders saw Jesus as a threat as He was always exposing them for what they really were and for leading people astray and they didn't want to lose their high rule and status among their own people. But to say Jesus didn't come to earth to be the Messiah...that is just not true. :(

Anyway thanks for the input on this everyone!

God bless

Studyin'2Show
Mar 19th 2008, 03:37 PM
Here's Hagee's answer to this issue. https://www.jhm.org/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&type=gen&mod=Core+Pages&gid=F9D83613EC574E6D8A2530B583FE9B95 We actually have already discussed this in this thread http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=117246

God Bless!

P.S. He released an updated version of the book because of the misunderstanding, but Youtube doesn't have that! ;)

daughter
Mar 19th 2008, 04:46 PM
Well, he's not stupid. Now he gets to sell the book twice!

Studyin'2Show
Mar 19th 2008, 05:21 PM
Well, he's not stupid. Now he gets to sell the book twice!:rofl::rofl::rofl: Maybe you get a discount if you return the first one? :P

Tanya~
Mar 19th 2008, 06:00 PM
There seems to be some confusion about whether Jesus actually openly claimed to be the Messiah. In the book of Mark, Jesus makes it a point to keep His identity quiet up until the point when it is time for Him to go to the cross. When the time came, Jesus plainly tells the Sanhedrin that He is the Messiah (translated "Christ"):

Mark 14:60-62

60 And the high priest stood up in the midst and asked Jesus, saying, "Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?" 61 But He kept silent and answered nothing.

Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?"

62 Jesus said, "I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."
NKJV

Jesus plainly tells them He is the Messiah, and that in the future they will see Him coming with the clouds of heaven, and reigning in power.

Studyin'2Show
Mar 19th 2008, 06:12 PM
I don't think he's confused, Tanya. In the clip, according to his explanation in the link I posted, he was speaking from the perspective of a common Jew, not the perspective of the Sanhedrin which was run by the Sadduccees that didn't even accept the resurrection. From what I understand, the book is intended to teach Christians to better understand the WHY the Jews believe what they believe so that we can be more effective witnesses to them. Basically, it seems to be a big misunderstanding.

Tanya~
Mar 19th 2008, 06:15 PM
I meant confusion on the part of some who have posted in this thread. :)
I just wanted to make sure everyone knew that Jesus did indeed claim to be the Messiah. His entry into Jerusalem on a donkey was itself an announcement of who He was, but in case of doubt, when asked, He did plainly say He is Messiah.

slightlypuzzled
Mar 19th 2008, 07:49 PM
Over the centuries, Christians have been quick to condemn the Jews for failing to recognize Jesus as Messiah. This approach led to replacement theology and the viewpoint of some that God has rejected and broken covenant with the Jewish people. These ideas, in turn, opened the door to a vicious Christian anti-Semitism that led to the Crusades, the Inquisition and countless pogroms.

I tried to challenge this view by highlighting a distinction that has been long recognized in Christian theology between the role Jesus played in His first coming, and the role He will play in his second coming. Jesus came the first time as the suffering Messiah, as exemplified by His persecution, rejection and crucifixion. Jesus will come back as the reigning Messiah, who will rule the world from His throne in Jerusalem as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.





Basically, he is rehashing his same old premillenialism with a 'political' twist. I say 'political' since he is trying to make the situation more palatable for the Jewish authorities he works with in his ministry. He has that right; ever since the movie 'The Passion of the Christ', the mainstream Jewish feeling has been that the NT writings, and Paul in particular, were dead wrong in their assessment of what really happened. Hagee was an early critic, albeit a gentle one, of the portrayal of the Jewish involvement in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
Hagee is right, the Jews, throught the centuries, were the recipients of harsh treatment from many who claimed to be Christians, but were really wolves in sheeps clothing.

Paul points out, in Ephesians, that Jew and Gentile were made into one new creature, and this had always been God's eternal purpose in Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:
11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit

Ephesians 3:
6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

In Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, just the one new man that is reconciled to God through the cross of Christ. They both are under the ruling Christ.

Ephesians 1:
19...That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.


A careful reading of John and Acts will show that the Jewish nation, as a whole rejected or, in many cases, accepted Jesus as Savior and Messiah.

daughter
Mar 19th 2008, 08:18 PM
His entry into Jerusalem on a donkey was itself an announcement of who He was, And what an announcement!

moonglow
Mar 19th 2008, 10:23 PM
Here's Hagee's answer to this issue. https://www.jhm.org/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&type=gen&mod=Core+Pages&gid=F9D83613EC574E6D8A2530B583FE9B95 We actually have already discussed this in this thread http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=117246

God Bless!

P.S. He released an updated version of the book because of the misunderstanding, but Youtube doesn't have that! ;)

Oh I am so sorry for repeating this topic...I hadn't seen it and now I saw it (didn't read that big huge thread though) I saw it was closed....which means things went badly...I hope this thread doesn't go that way though. As I said, I know nothing about him...in knowing nothing about him his 'ad' for his book sure came off the wrong way! I read the first link you gave...he seemed to be talking about some confusion in chapter ten in the book...I didn't see anything about the ad, but that is ok as he addressed the concern on that link...and was disheartened so many thought he was denying Jesus as the Messiah. He seems to think most know him well since he has been preaching for 30 plus years ( I think it said) and people should know how he stands on this...

He is writing this for long time viewers and readers and seems to have forgotten about new viewers or those given some youtube video...:lol:

Anyway thank you and the others that posted and explained that he was talking from a different point of view trying to get the Christians to stop harassing the Jews which is a GOOD thing! Now I never understood why a Christian would attack the Jews to start with...I mean I realize they (wrongly) blame the Jews for the death of Jesus...but Jesus Himself said He willingly lays down His life...that no one makes Him...plus He is Jewish! And He had to die! We call that day GOOD Friday then turn around and bash the Jews for it? Never made one bit of sense to me...plus it goes against His teachings!

At any rate if he can stop this hatred of Jews through this book that I say more power to him.

I buy alot of Hank Hangaffe books (probably spelled that wrong) and listen to him on the radio when I get a chance too. I have heard the attacks on him too. They all get it one way or another...sometimes they need some correcting...none of them are infallible. As long as we always try to sort it out, see what is true and of course check it against the bible I think we will be ok.

God bless

HisGrace
Mar 19th 2008, 11:42 PM
What he said certainly was confusing, but here is a quote from Brother Hagee -"I was surprised to learn that some people were interpreting my words as a rejection of this most fundamental Christian belief that Jesus came to earth as the Messiah promised in the Hebrew Scriptures. I have been preaching the gospel for half a century. Almost every Sunday for the past 50 years, I have stood in front of Christian audiences to clearly proclaim the glory of our Lord, Savior and Messiah, Jesus Christ. For the past 30 years, these weekly sermons have been beamed to millions around the world on Christian television.

I tried to challenge this view by highlighting a distinction that has been long recognized in Christian theology between the role Jesus played in His first coming, and the role He will play in his second coming. Jesus came the first time as the suffering Messiah, as exemplified by His persecution, rejection and crucifixion. Jesus will come back as the reigning Messiah, who will rule the world from His throne in Jerusalem as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. "

menJesus
Mar 19th 2008, 11:42 PM
FYI: John Hagee has been preaching for 50 years, now.

As I said, I didn`t watch the video, and I am not going to. I do have enough doctrine in me to recognize when someone goes off-track, and I just tune them out... ;)

I also know that he has strongly aligned himself with the jewish people - and rightly so... but I do not concentrate on him when his program is focused on them...

Actually, it takes just about all my time and all my concentration to figure out my own christianity, and the KJV!

What I want to learn about Jews, I can do in my own time, from the posts of our own Fenris. :)

menJesus
Mar 19th 2008, 11:44 PM
What he said certainly was confusing, but here is a quote from Brother Hagee -"I was surprised to learn that some people were interpreting my words as a rejection of this most fundamental Christian belief that Jesus came to earth as the Messiah promised in the Hebrew Scriptures. I have been preaching the gospel for half a century. Almost every Sunday for the past 50 years, I have stood in front of Christian audiences to clearly proclaim the glory of our Lord, Savior and Messiah, Jesus Christ. For the past 30 years, these weekly sermons have been beamed to millions around the world on Christian television.

I tried to challenge this view by highlighting a distinction that has been long recognized in Christian theology between the role Jesus played in His first coming, and the role He will play in his second coming. Jesus came the first time as the suffering Messiah, as exemplified by His persecution, rejection and crucifixion. Jesus will come back as the reigning Messiah, who will rule the world from His throne in Jerusalem as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. "

Well, I hope this clears up some of the confusion. John Hagee is a good preacher - as long as he stays right on track with it all...

HisGrace
Mar 20th 2008, 02:40 PM
I also know that he has strongly aligned himself with the jewish people - and rightly so... but I do not concentrate on him when his program is focused on them... I believe John Hagee has been given this special anointing to educate us about the Jewish people. They are the apple of God's eye and place a crucial role in the end time prophecies.

daughter
Mar 20th 2008, 02:44 PM
He's been annointed to sell lots of books too...

:D

David Taylor
Mar 20th 2008, 04:06 PM
I believe John Hagee has been given this special anointing to educate us about the Jewish people. They are the apple of God's eye and place a crucial role in the end time prophecies.


Unfortunately, being educated about the Jewish people is not the commission we have been given from above.

The true commission, rather, is to take the gospel of Jesus Christ to all creatures, from every nation; and those who accept it; and who repent and turn to follow the Lord God are the good apples; those who reject it, and who reject God's Son are the bad fruit that is cut off and cast into the fire.

Anointing to the rejection of Jesus Christ, isn't of God...regardless of how well it might be packaged.

Sometimes we seem to forget what Jesus Himself had to say:

John 8:42,46 "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death."

II John 1:9 "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."

The focus and honor is on Jesus, and His outreach through His gospel to all men who will repent and accept Him; not to any modern prophets, or any modern racial groups or individuals who openly reject Him after being shared the gospel.

Mark 3:35 "For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life"

Studyin'2Show
Mar 20th 2008, 05:44 PM
Yet Paul is called the apostle to the Gentiles and Peter the apostle to the Jews. :hmm: A person can have a specific calling to a specific nationality. ;) Being called to a specific people does not mean you would NOT witness to someone of another race, like Peter with Cornelius. It is not a sin to follow a specific calling to a specific people. Those who feel called to witness to the Jews get lots of flack but the same does not happen when a missionary feels called to China or India or Mexico etc.

God Bless!

daughter
Mar 20th 2008, 05:51 PM
Hagee gives the impression that he thinks he owns the Jewish people. That may just be me, but I find him rather condescending at times.

Besides, it's one thing to be called to be an apostle to people. It's another thing entirely to write lots of books about it, generate maximum publicity, and become wealthy on the back of such "apostleship."

Not saying that Hagee's necessarily done that... because I could be wrong. But it looks very much like a marketting excercise to me.

Studyin'2Show
Mar 20th 2008, 05:57 PM
daughter, I was simply responding to what David Taylor had said, not necessarily defending Hagee. He's not really my 'cup of tea' and I'll leave it at that. However, I defend his right to preach the Gospel. Paul said that there were some who preach for the wrong reasons but still the Gospel is preached. I tend to like to discuss concepts rather than people since I can not judge the heart. ;)

God bless!

daughter
Mar 20th 2008, 06:01 PM
Ah, I see what you mean. And you're right, we're better to discuss ideas rather than tear other people down. I'm sure Hagee's been instrumental in leading very many to Christ, and I should remember that.

David Taylor
Mar 20th 2008, 07:20 PM
Yet Paul is called the apostle to the Gentiles and Peter the apostle to the Jews. :hmm: A person can have a specific calling to a specific nationality. ;) Being called to a specific people does not mean you would NOT witness to someone of another race, like Peter with Cornelius. It is not a sin to follow a specific calling to a specific people. Those who feel called to witness to the Jews get lots of flack but the same does not happen when a missionary feels called to China or India or Mexico etc.



Sad thing is, noone should get any flack for witnessing to anyone; regardless of race. Because race is irrelevant, it is the state of the individual's soul and relationship (or lack thereof) with the Lord that is important.

If folks would stop getting hungup on the race of others, and would simply follow Jesus' advice to love their neighbors, then the harvest would be much more fruitful.

:D

David Taylor
Mar 20th 2008, 07:23 PM
daughter, I was simply responding to what David Taylor had said, not necessarily defending Hagee. He's not really my 'cup of tea' and I'll leave it at that. However, I defend his right to preach the Gospel. Paul said that there were some who preach for the wrong reasons but still the Gospel is preached. I tend to like to discuss concepts rather than people since I can not judge the heart. ;)

God bless!

Problem with Hagee's approach, though, is that he has taught that Christians 'shouldn't preach the gospel' to Jews....that their economy will be dealt with later; after the Church is gone.

I've seen him on TV bluntly and straight out say that if you are a Christian, you shouldn't be sharing the gospel with and trying to evangelize Jews.

Sorry, but that approach is grossly against the teachings of the N.T. and detrimental to lost souls who otherwise, might be open to the gospel.


Noone, John Hagee or otherwise, should be hindering the gospel's outreach to any person.

Studyin'2Show
Mar 20th 2008, 07:44 PM
Sad thing is, noone should get any flack for witnessing to anyone; regardless of race. Because race is irrelevant, it is the state of the individual's soul and relationship (or lack thereof) with the Lord that is important.

If folks would stop getting hungup on the race of others, and would simply follow Jesus' advice to love their neighbors, then the harvest would be much more fruitful.

:DThat's the point I was making with Peter being called to the Jews. There are those that are called to Haiti or China or Africa. Are they racist? Not in my opinion. Being called to a specific group does not mean that if you have the opportunity to witness to others you don't. :o

As to Hagee's view on Jewish evangelism (or lack thereof), that was not what I was addressing. I know that we are expected to preach the Good News to ALL creatures which means ALL, including Jews. My point was simply that your broad statement seemingly condemning the idea of being called to a specific group, goes against what we read of Paul and Peter in scripture. ;)

God Bless!

David Taylor
Mar 20th 2008, 07:47 PM
My point was simply that your broad statement seemingly condemning the idea of being called to a specific group


Which of my broad statements was that?

I'd like to re-address it more carefully; because I would never want to give the impression that I would condemn anyone from evangelizing based on race.

Studyin'2Show
Mar 20th 2008, 07:53 PM
Which of my broad statements was that?

I'd like to re-address it more carefully; because I would never want to give the impression that I would condemn anyone from evangelizing based on race.If I misunderstood what you were saying, I apologize.:blush:

David Taylor
Mar 20th 2008, 08:00 PM
If I misunderstood what you were saying, I apologize.:blush:

I'm not sure if you did or not? :confused

Which of my statements was it that seemed condemning of evangelizing?

Studyin'2Show
Mar 20th 2008, 08:06 PM
I'm not sure if you did or not? :confused

Which of my statements was it that seemed condemning of evangelizing?
The focus and honor is on Jesus, and His outreach through His gospel to all men who will repent and accept Him; not to any modern prophets, or any modern racial groups or individuals who openly reject Him after being shared the gospel.I was merely commenting that biblically Peter is said to have been called 'specifically' to the Jews (racial group), but that does not mean he would not witness to a non Jew (Cornellius). There are some who are called to a particular group of people. I know someone personally who is called to Haiti and another who is called to native Americans. They are not racist because of this calling to a particular racial group. I hope that clears up any confusion.

Tanya~
Mar 20th 2008, 08:12 PM
I'm wondering something about Hagee's thesis though. He says in his advert that he scripturally proves that the Jews as a whole did not reject Jesus as the Messiah. In his letter to his readers, he stresses that he does believe Jesus is the Messiah, but that doesn't address the question of whether or not he believes Jesus revealed Himself as Messiah to Israel or not. If He hadn't been rejected, how could the Scripture be fulfilled:

Ps 118:22
The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
NKJV

Studyin'2Show
Mar 20th 2008, 08:17 PM
I'm wondering something about Hagee's thesis though. He says in his advert that he scripturally proves that the Jews as a whole did not reject Jesus as the Messiah. In his letter to his readers, he stresses that he does believe Jesus is the Messiah, but that doesn't address the question of whether or not he believes Jesus revealed Himself as Messiah to Israel or not. If He hadn't been rejected, how could the Scripture be fulfilled:

Ps 118:22
The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
NKJVI think the logic he uses is that the 'builders' are the leaders of Israel. The leaders, in his view, rejected Yeshua but I think he does not feel that the common Jew rejected him. :dunno: At least that's how I read his position.

Tanya~
Mar 20th 2008, 08:20 PM
I think the logic he uses is that the 'builders' are the leaders of Israel. The leaders, in his view, rejected Yeshua but I think he does not feel that the common Jew rejected him. :dunno: At least that's how I read his position.

Yet the Scriptures do hold that the Jews in general did reject Him. Of course the first Christians were all Jewish, but the Jewish leadership did influence the people to reject Christ and this is true even up to the present day, which is why most Jews then and now reject/ed Jesus and do not believe He is the Messiah.

David Taylor
Mar 20th 2008, 08:39 PM
The focus and honor is on Jesus, and His outreach through His gospel to all men who will repent and accept Him; not to any modern prophets, or any modern racial groups or individuals who openly reject Him after being shared the gospel.I was merely commenting that biblically Peter is said to have been called 'specifically' to the Jews (racial group), but that does not mean he would not witness to a non Jew (Cornellius). There are some who are called to a particular group of people. I know someone personally who is called to Haiti and another who is called to native Americans. They are not racist because of this calling to a particular racial group. I hope that clears up any confusion.


OK, I see how that was poorly worded. To expand and clarify, my intent was when someone who focus on solely a racial group, to the exclusion of anyone external to that particular group.

Paul preached to Jews and Gentiles.
Peter preached to Jews and Gentiles.
They focused, however, on the people in the places they were at, at the time....just like all the other disciples wherever God sent them, and us as well. Noone focused only on a specific racial group; but shared the gospel discrimently with whomever they met who was lost.

David Taylor
Mar 20th 2008, 08:47 PM
I think the logic he uses is that the 'builders' are the leaders of Israel. The leaders, in his view, rejected Yeshua but I think he does not feel that the common Jew rejected him. :dunno: At least that's how I read his position.


But that premise, if 'builders = leaders of Israel', rejected Jesus as Messiah; also fails.

Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimethea were both leaders of Israel; on the Sanhedrin court.

Later in Acts, we see that many of the Priests, were followers of Jesus.

Acts 6:7 "And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith."

HisGrace
Mar 20th 2008, 09:53 PM
Unfortunately, being educated about the Jewish people is not the commission we have been given from above. Sometimes by getting caught up in the latest book or quote by a pastor, we lose sight of their fundamental beliefs.

John Hagee's site Our Mission -
"The mission of John Hagee Ministries is to aggressively fulfill the commission that Jesus Christ gave to his followers to go into the world and make disciples of all people."

"Our purpose is to bring the lost to Jesus Christ and to build up and encourage those who are already believers."

John Hagee's Beliefs - notice that Israel is near the bottom of the list.
http://www.jhm.org/ME2/Sites/dirmod.asp?sid=&type=gen&mod=Core+Pages&gid=CFF4455DADAC4DB6A1E518444392C3D7


We must remember that we are living in the end times and he is trying to educate us re God's covenant promises to Abraham. Many prophesies have been and are presently being fulfilled, and someone has to be assigned to make us aware of the importance of what is going on and will happen in the future.

That is why we watch the evening news. We like to be aware of what is going on in the world.

menJesus
Mar 20th 2008, 10:02 PM
Yes, Israel and the end-time prophecies is one thing John Hagee does focus on, in some of his programs. And rightly so.

Right now he is teaching about the temple - 3 very cool programs... :)

Studyin'2Show
Mar 20th 2008, 11:54 PM
But that premise, if 'builders = leaders of Israel', rejected Jesus as Messiah; also fails.

Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimethea were both leaders of Israel; on the Sanhedrin court.

Later in Acts, we see that many of the Priests, were followers of Jesus.

Acts 6:7 "And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith." I was explaining what I believe HIS position is, not giving mine. :D I haven't really studied this out but it looks like it would be a very interesting study. :hmm: As to Nicodemus and Joseph being leaders, actually they were pharisees who were not in power as though they were members of the Sanhedrin. It was the Sadduccees who were the ones with real power. So, who were 'the builders'? I know that traditionally we ascribe that to 'the Jews' on the whole, but using the logic you mentioned saying it couldn't be 'the leaders; since Nic and Joe ;) accepted Messiah, can we really consider it as 'the Jews' since many thousands of Jews DID accept Him as well.:hmm: I'll have to pray for revelation and study on that one. Thanks for peaking my interest. :D

God Bless!

Tanya~
Mar 21st 2008, 12:17 AM
Joseph at least, was a member of the Sanhedrin.

Mark 15:42-43
Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent council member, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, coming and taking courage, went in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.
NKJV

Nicodemus was "a ruler" of the Jews:

John 3:1

There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
NKJV

It isn't that every Jew, to a man, rejected Jesus. But the leadership as a whole (the majority) did, and the natural political rivals (Pharisees, Herodians and Saduccees) joined forces to plot against Him.

Studyin'2Show
Mar 21st 2008, 12:41 AM
It isn't that every Jew, to a man, rejected Jesus. But the leadership as a whole (the majority) did, and the natural political rivals (Pharisees, Herodians and Saduccees) joined forces to plot against Him.I think that is Hagee's position. That the 'leadership', in general, are 'the builders' that reject the cornerstone. :dunno:

Tanya~
Mar 21st 2008, 01:22 AM
It sounds though, from his advertisement for his book, that the reason they rejected Jesus is because He never revealed Himself as the Messiah to them, when He had.

I don't mean to put you on the spot though, or in a position where you feel like you have to defend Hagee. It is clear that the Jews reject Jesus and are still under the blindness that Paul prophesied would one day end. The result of the builders rejecting their Messiah, is that the people also reject Him and continue to do so, denying that Jesus is the Messiah. So even though it was just the powerful who rejected Him initially, they influenced and continue to influence the whole nation.

BTW I'm not dissing Israel. I believe what Paul said in Romans 11. :)

Studyin'2Show
Mar 21st 2008, 02:13 AM
I think he's saying that the only place He actually said for certain that He is Messiah, was before the High Priest.

Mark 14:60-64
60 And the high priest stood up in the midst and asked Jesus, saying, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?” 61 But He kept silent and answered nothing.
Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?”
62 Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
63 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “What further need do we have of witnesses? 64 You have heard the blasphemy! What do you think?” And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.

This is the ONLY place where He straight out answered the question regarding His Messiah-ship, and the common Jew would not have heard this. I haven't really studied this enough but I can understand his logic. There's this thing called plausible deniability. There's a lot there to sift through.

God Bless!

Tanya~
Mar 21st 2008, 02:42 AM
Jesus' entry into Jerusalem on a donkey, and the welcoming reception of the crowd, clearly shows Him to be presenting Himself to the nation as the Messiah, and their acceptance of Him as such.

Zech 9:9
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your King is coming to you;
He is just and having salvation,
Lowly and riding on a donkey,
A colt, the foal of a donkey.
NKJV

Ps 118:22-27
22 The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. 23 This was the LORD's doing;
It is marvelous in our eyes.
24 This is the day the LORD has made;
We will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I pray, O LORD;
O LORD, I pray, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD!
We have blessed you from the house of the LORD.
27 God is the LORD,
And He has given us light;
Bind the sacrifice with cords to the horns of the altar.
NKJV

The crowd's response of "Hosanna!" is a reference to verse 25 -- Hosanna means 'save now.' Their reference to Jesus as the Son of David is their recognition that He is Messiah. And Him making the point of coming into the city mounted on the colt of a donkey, to be received by the people in this way, was a tacit announcement of Himself as the Messiah. It is not necessary for Jesus to stand in the temple and announce that He was Messiah. That wasn't required. He fulfilled the Scriptures, intentionally, to make that point.

Matt 21:14-16

14 Then the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them. 15 But when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that He did, and the children crying out in the temple and saying, "Hosanna to the Son of David!" they were indignant 16 and said to Him, "Do You hear what these are saying?"

And Jesus said to them, "Yes. Have you never read,

'Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants
You have perfected praise'?"
NKJV

Hagee's idea that Jesus did not present Himself to the nation as Messiah is just wrong.

IPet2_9
Mar 21st 2008, 03:52 AM
There were some Christian peace protesters in front of John Hagee's church the other day. There were like 12 of them. And 20 police. It was quite a scene. :o

http://whtt.org/straitgate/index.php?news=2&id=253

menJesus
Mar 21st 2008, 08:59 AM
That article is dated 10-20-2007. And I`m sure this is not the only time its happened, there.

Studyin'2Show
Mar 21st 2008, 10:27 AM
Tanya, I think you are missing his point, which is where the conflict originated. He is NOT saying (as far as I can tell) that He did not present Himself as Messiah in Jerusalem and that many recognized Him based on Scriptures. He still only positively affirmed it once, in one place, before only the Sanhedrin. But Jerusalem is merely one city in Israel. There are likely many Jews living in Jerusalem who never even heard of Yeshua. :hmm: True?

daughter
Mar 21st 2008, 10:38 AM
What about the Samaritan woman in John?




19"Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. 20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."
21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

And then she goes and tells everyone she knows, and many of them believe, so many that Jesus had to stay a couple of days talking to them.



39Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman's testimony, "He told me everything I ever did." 40So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41And because of his words many more became believers.
42They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world."


It must have been very widely known that Jesus was the Messiah... everyone was talking about it.

Studyin'2Show
Mar 21st 2008, 11:02 AM
You see, we have the mentality of people who are chit-chatting across the pond (the Atlantic) in a matter of mere nanoseconds. The Samaritan woman went back to HER village to tell of Him, and they accepted Him and asked Him to stay. Yet only a little later it says that the Samaritans didn't want Him there. Different Samaritans! Samaria was big. :D Israel was big. They had no televisions or telephones; no newspapers or magazines. I do not watch the news. There are things that happened in my own city that I have no clue about. I'm reclusive that way from the things of the world. I'm the type of person that doesn't go down to gawk if an ambulance comes on the block. At the hotel on Monday night, the front desk clerk died and I had no idea because we didn't go down to the crime tape to see what was happening. During a time of literally NO mass media, I can imagine that there were many who never heard the name Yeshua while He walked amongst them. I think we as believers have been taught as if every single person in Israel personally rejected Messiah, but I don't think that was the case.

What does that mean in the grand scheme of things? I don't know. Does it mean we shouldn't witness to Jews? I don't think so. Many Jews have become great believers in Messiah and have led many others of all nations to Him. As I said, it's an interesting study. I believe I will delve deeper into it. ;)

God Bless!

David Taylor
Mar 21st 2008, 12:43 PM
someone has to be assigned to make us aware of the importance of what is going on and will happen in the future.


That would be "the Holy Spirit"...
John 14:26 "the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."


through the reading and studying of Gods Word...
Acts 17:11 " they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. "



Not John Hagee, or any other modern-day "expert".

Studyin'2Show
Mar 21st 2008, 01:16 PM
Different strokes for different folks. It takes all types of Gospel preachers to reach all types of people. I see people on here all the time trash TBN, yet my mother was saved watching TBN. My friend got saved in a crackhouse watching TBN and reading along in her Bible. So should we trash those people preaching the Gospel that don't appeal to us or should we just not sit under them. I choose the latter. In 50 years as a fire and brimstone preacher (not my style) I am absolutely sure that he has led numerous souls to the LORD. So, because he has what some see as a bonehead interpretation (I'm still reserving my opinion) on one thing do we throw out the baby along with the bathwater. Ironically, many believers, I'm tempted to say most, NEVER witness to Jews anyway so the point is moot. :rolleyes: The bottom line is that all the hype in this issue is deceptive because Hagee does not believe that Jesus was not the Messiah.

God Bless!

moonglow
Mar 21st 2008, 03:37 PM
Different strokes for different folks. It takes all types of Gospel preachers to reach all types of people. I see people on here all the time trash TBN, yet my mother was saved watching TBN. My friend got saved in a crackhouse watching TBN and reading along in her Bible. So should we trash those people preaching the Gospel that don't appeal to us or should we just not sit under them. I choose the latter. In 50 years as a fire and brimstone preacher (not my style) I am absolutely sure that he has led numerous souls to the LORD. So, because he has what some see as a bonehead interpretation (I'm still reserving my opinion) on one thing do we throw out the baby along with the bathwater. Ironically, many believers, I'm tempted to say most, NEVER witness to Jews anyway so the point is moot. :rolleyes: The bottom line is that all the hype in this issue is deceptive because Hagee does not believe that Jesus was not the Messiah.

God Bless!

That is very true! Well I shy away from most TV preachers...we really can't discount those that were lead to Christ because of them.

I know a man that was a womanizer, a heavy drinker and smoker. He has ALOT of children by alot of different women. He is still embarrassed to say how many he has though they are all grown now...he is in his senior years now. He was watching one of these TV preachers one night years ago and was convicted and got on his knees right then and there and accepted Jesus into his life. All his addictions were taken from him on the spot! He suffered no withdrawals at all. He changed completely. :)

Now he believes in what he calls the 'full gospel church' meaning speaking in tongues..the whole nine yards...something I was not raised to even understand actually. I cannot say he wasn't saved, I cannot put down whatever preacher he was listening too...I really can't say anything because he was saved...the evidence of that is very clear and cannot be denied. So now I am much more careful with my words about any preacher on TV or otherwise...I don't jump on bandwagons and just assume they are bad apples because others say so. God works through whomever He wants too and how He wants too. As long as they aren't leading people away from Christ, we can't say too much actually.

God bless

daughter
Mar 21st 2008, 03:40 PM
God works through whomever He wants too and how He wants too.
Amen!

Tanya~
Mar 21st 2008, 05:02 PM
Tanya, I think you are missing his point, which is where the conflict originated. He is NOT saying (as far as I can tell) that He did not present Himself as Messiah in Jerusalem and that many recognized Him based on Scriptures. He still only positively affirmed it once, in one place, before only the Sanhedrin. But Jerusalem is merely one city in Israel.

I don't think this is true.

John 10:22-30
Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."

25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."
NKJV

Jesus told them more than once or twice. It wasn't only before the Sanhedrin on the night of His crucifixion that He revealed He was Christ.


There are likely many Jews living in Jerusalem who never even heard of Yeshua. :hmm: True?

I don't think that's true. There may have been some, but the majority of people in the whole land of Israel and surrounding areas heard of Jesus, and many of them set out to see Him in person.

Mark 3:7-8
But Jesus withdrew with His disciples to the sea. And a great multitude from Galilee followed Him, and from Judea 8 and Jerusalem and Idumea and beyond the Jordan; and those from Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, when they heard how many things He was doing, came to Him.

People from all around, heard about Jesus and what He was doing.

Hagee states: "Since Jesus refused by word and deed to claim to be the Messiah, how can the Jews be blamed for rejecting what was never offered?"

Yet Peter states: "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know — Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it... Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." (Acts 2:22-24, 36)

If he wants to claim that Jesus never offered Himself as Messiah to the Jews, what does he do with the apostles? Do a concordance search of the word "Christ" in the New Testament. I don't know how it is possible that Hagee can claim that the Jews were never offered salvation through faith in Jesus as the Messiah. If Jesus was not offered to the Jews, then He couldn't have been offered to the rest of us either, because the gospel of Messiah was first offered to the Jews.

Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
NKJV

Paul, in Romans 9, 10 and 11 speaks about Israel and her rejection of Jesus as Messiah. The gospel was offered to Israel.

I can appreciate and sympathize with Hagee's heart for Israel and love for the Jewish people, and persecution by the church in times past against the Jews is unconscionable. Persecution of anyone is not Christian, and the persecution of the Jews is particularly evil because Israel is the root which supports the grafted-in branches. They are beloved by God for the sake of the Fathers, and whom God loves, His people also love.

But Hagee is wrong to say that Jesus was not offered to Israel as Messiah.

Tanya~
Mar 21st 2008, 05:16 PM
I think we as believers have been taught as if every single person in Israel personally rejected Messiah, but I don't think that was the case.

I don't think this is the case either, and it wasn't what I was taught. The Scripture shows that Many Jews believed in Him, including those from the leadership. But because the Jewish leaders rejected Him (the builders), those whom they led were taught to reject Him as well, and this is why the Jewish people as a whole do not believe Jesus is the Messiah -- why Judaism excludes Jesus. This is what I understand from Scripture. That isn't to say that no Jew believes in Jesus. But most Jews do not believe in their Messiah. The blindness of the nation of Israel as a whole will continue until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. But that doesn't mean every Jew will be or is blind to their Messiah and for that reason we must witness to everyone God presents to us, both Jew and Gentile.

Studyin'2Show
Mar 21st 2008, 06:09 PM
That may be the way we were taught but there's nothing in scripture that tells us that He had contact with that many people in the entire country. Even with CNN today there are people who have never heard of people that are considered famous. And they didn't have CNN. In the scripture you quoted He was not speaking to everyone in Israel. Those who were sick and searching came looking for Him, but an average farmer or shepherd or merchant likely just went to work for six days and rested on the Sabbath. They didn't think they needed to be healed so they wouldn't have gone looking for a healing. He didn't come to be famous. In fact, He was constantly telling people NOT to tell about Him. Yeshua told us by His actions who He was. They were looking for Him to say it in words, which is why they told Him to tell them plainly.

Listen, whether Harvey Cohen or Schlomo Levine knew of Yeshua makes no difference to me in how I witness. He commissioned us to go into ALL the world and make disciples. He did NOT say EXCEPT for the Jews. Many great believers (even after Peter and Paul :D) have been Jewish. It just doesn't seem likely to me that the average Joe in Israeli knew that Yeshua might be Messiah. :hmm:

God Bless!

HisGrace
Mar 21st 2008, 06:17 PM
That would be "the Holy Spirit"...
John 14:26 "the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."


through the reading and studying of Gods Word...
Acts 17:11 " they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. "

Not John Hagee, or any other modern-day "expert".
Why bother having churches, good books, and sound spiritual teachers? Although I may be growing in knowledge I don't profess to know the hundreds if tidbits of wisdom in the Bible. God gives us all separate discernment and insight, which we should share with each other. Many have a special anointing in different subjects. We will never stop learning.

HisGrace
Mar 21st 2008, 06:33 PM
Different strokes for different folks. It takes all types of Gospel preachers to reach all types of people. I see people on here all the time trash TBN, yet my mother was saved watching TBN. My friend got saved in a crackhouse watching TBN and reading along in her Bible. So should we trash those people preaching the Gospel that don't appeal to us or should we just not sit under them. I choose the latter. In 50 years as a fire and brimstone preacher (not my style) I am absolutely sure that he has led numerous souls to the LORD.


That is very true! Well I shy away from most TV preachers...we really can't discount those that were lead to Christ because of them.

I know a man that was a womanizer, a heavy drinker and smoker. He has A lot of children by alot of different women. He is still embarrassed to say how many he has though they are all grown now...he is in his senior years now. He was watching one of these TV preachers one night years ago and was convicted and got on his knees right then and there and accepted Jesus into his life. All his addictions were taken from him on the spot! He suffered no withdrawals at all. He changed completely. :)

. So now I am much more careful with my words about any preacher on TV or otherwise...I don't jump on bandwagons and just assume they are bad apples because others say so.

God works through whomever He wants too and how He wants too.
Amen! Amen folks!! It is all about winning souls. There are many Christians out there whose main mission in life is to root out every 'heretic' behind every tree. What damage are their words doing? Are their own souls in danger because of slandering these preachers? My heart is really heavy because of their own possible judgment and, more crucially, their negative influence on others.

Tanya~
Mar 21st 2008, 07:32 PM
That may be the way we were taught but there's nothing in scripture that tells us that He had contact with that many people in the entire country.

The Scripture shows that He had contact with multitudes of people from the whole country and the areas surrounding Israel.

Mark 3:7-8
But Jesus withdrew with His disciples to the sea. And a great multitude from Galilee followed Him, and from Judea 8 and Jerusalem and Idumea and beyond the Jordan; and those from Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, when they heard how many things He was doing, came to Him.
NKJV

A great multitude is a lot of people, and those who did not come to meet Him out of curiosity or need, still would have heard of Him. This is why, on the road to Emmaus, the two disciples were incredulous when Jesus asked them about the things that had happened.

Luke 24:18
Then the one whose name was Cleopas answered and said to Him, "Are You the only stranger in Jerusalem, and have You not known the things which happened there in these days?"
NKJV


This was big news, and even though they didn't have TV, that doesn't mean the news did not spread at a very fast rate. Also, Paul said to Festus, "This thing was not done in a corner."

After Jesus' resurrection and ascension, the apostles went forth as Jesus commanded, preaching the gospel -- that Jesus is the Christ. They went to the Jews first, and then to the Gentiles.

Acts 13:46-47
46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.
NKJV

This was repeated over and over, if you read through Acts.

Acts 18:5-6
When Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. 6 But when they opposed him and blasphemed, he shook his garments and said to them,"Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."
NKJV

Acts 18:27-28
27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace; 28 for he vigorously refuted the Jews publicly, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.
NKJV


Jesus as Messiah was first presented to the Jews, but He was rejected by them, as the Scriptures foretold. Not all the Jews rejected Jesus, for example, the Jews in Berea heard what Paul said and searched the Scriptures, verified the truth, and many of them believed. But the majority of the Jews rejected the gospel.


Even with CNN today there are people who have never heard of people that are considered famous.

That is true, but it doesn't pertain to what happened with Jesus in Israel. If a few people never heard of Jesus, that doesn't change the fact that the nation as a whole rejected the Messiah who was clearly presented to them as such.

Paul, in recounting his conversion to Agrippa, said this about his ministry:

Acts 26:19-23

"Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. 21 For these reasons the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. 22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come — 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles."
NKJV


There is no way that Hagee's claim that Jesus was never presented as Messiah to Israel could be true.


He didn't come to be famous.

He came to fulfill prophecy, to do the works God sent Him to do, to suffer for our sins, to die and rise again... all things that were prophesied about the Messiah. He was famous because of the works that He did and the things that He taught, and also because of the controversy that developed. But His purpose in coming was to be the Messiah. I don't see how Hagee could say that Jesus refused by word and deed to be the Messiah. He would have been disobeying the Father if He had refused these things.

At Pentecost, all who were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (i.e. Jesus as Messiah) were Jews and Jewish proselytes. They were accepting Jesus as Messiah. Jesus had been presented to them as Messiah, and they received Him as such by being baptized in His name. If Jesus had not been offered to the Jews as their Messiah, that wouldn't have happened. They didn't receive Jesus as anything other than Messiah.


In fact, He was constantly telling people NOT to tell about Him. Yeshua told us by His actions who He was. They were looking for Him to say it in words, which is why they told Him to tell them plainly.

And He did tell them plainly, on more than one occasion. All the evidence of Scripture shows that Jesus was presented as Messiah to Israel, and that Israel rejected Him. Many people as individuals accepted Him from the nation of Israel, but the nation as a whole did not accept Him -- they did not receive the Messiah because it was necessary, for the fulfillment of Scripture, that they reject Him. If He had not been presented to them as Messiah, they would not have rejected Messiah. That is Hagee's theory -- He is saying that Israel didn't reject Messiah because Jesus did not come to them as Messiah. But he's just wrong about that.

Studyin'2Show
Mar 21st 2008, 07:45 PM
Tanya, the scriptures you posted tell of Paul's travels which happen long after His crucifixion and resurrection. This has to do with someone else testifying to Yeshua's Messiah-ship not Himself. BTW, did you notice that on the road to Emmaus they asked if He was a stranger in JERUSALEM, not Israel? Which is the point. Sure many people in Jerusalem may have heard of Him but we're not only speaking of Jerusalem. Israel has many, many cities. However, I think I'll bow out at this point, as we seem to disagree and going in circles will get us nowhere. ;) Thanks for the dialog.

God Bless!

Tanya~
Mar 21st 2008, 08:07 PM
The point is Hagee claims that Jesus was not presented to the Jews as Messiah, and that therefore, they are not responsible for rejecting Him as Messiah. The consequences of the rejection of Christ extends to the present day, in that Jews do not believe Jesus is the Son of David. If they didn't understand when Jesus was on the earth, they had opportunity to be shown more clearly in the time of the apostles, and to the present day. But still, Israel doesn't believe Jesus is the Son of David.

What it looks like is that Hagee, in his well-intentioned desire to show that persecution of the Jews was/is wrong, makes the mistake of trying to teach Christians that Jesus was not presented to Israel as Messiah when He was.

When someone writes a book that he claims "will shake Christian theology," it is important to look at what it is he is seeking to shake, and whether the shakeup is warranted. I'm all for evaluating the truth and changing my beliefs and practices to align with the truth of Scripture. But we want to be like the Bereans, and compare what is said against the Scriptures, to see whether these things are so.

The thing is that he says Jesus wasn't presented to Israel as Messiah, and they are therefore not responsible for rejecting Him. Now if they lacked understanding and that lack of understanding led to the crucifixion, that would be one thing. At Pentecost, 3,000 Jewish people recognized that the Messiah had been crucified, and that they were complicit in the act. They repented, believed the gospel, and were baptized to receive Him. At that point, Israel could have received the gospel of the Messiah. But that didn't happen. Israel continued to reject Him even though His identity as Messiah and Son of God was shown more and more, through the ministry of the apostles to be incontrovertible.

It isn't possible that Jesus was not presented as Messiah while people received Him as such.

markedward
Mar 23rd 2008, 05:27 AM
(Responding to the thread as a whole)

John Hagee claims (in a certain video circulating YouTube):

1 The Jews did not reject Jesus as the Messiah.
2 Jesus did not come to be the Messiah, and He denied "by word and deed" to be the Messiah.
3 Jesus never offered salvation to the Jews and can't be blamed for rejecting what they were never offered.

Biblical problems with...

Number 1
Mark 15:31-32
In the same way the chief priests and the teachers of the law mocked him among themselves. "He saved others," they said, "but he can't save himself! Let this Messiah, this King of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe." Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him.

The use of "this Messiah" (literally, "this anointed one") is derogatory and used as a mockery of Jesus. The "Jews" (being, the "chief priests" and the "teachers of the Law," as well as the many who called for Him to be crucified) did outright deny Jesus to be the Messiah. This is not to say all Jews rejected Him; obviously, many of the disciples and the other followers of Jesus were Jews, and they did accept Him as the Messiah, but in contradiction with what Hagee teaches, the majority of the Jews did (at least initially) reject Jesus as the Messiah.


Number 2
Mark 14:60-62
Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.

Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?"

"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

John 4:25-26
The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."

Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

Here, Jesus outright says He is the Messiah. Aside from this, Jesus never denied being the Messiah, He only told people to keep quiet about it. If a demon saw Jesus, the demon would cry out "You are the Holy One of God!" Why would they do such a thing if He wasn't the Messiah? Whenever people said Jesus was the Messiah, He told them to not say anything, but He never denied being the Messiah. By word and deed, Jesus outright called Himself the Messiah, in contradiction with what Hagee claimed.

Number 3
For one, the followers of Jesus were Jews. Simon Peter, James, John, etc. They were all Jews, and He very plainly offered salvation to them. He walked all around Judea and Galilee preaching salvation and the Kingdom of God to the Jews. If Jesus wasn't offering salvation to them, as Hagee says, why did He devote nearly His entire ministry to preaching salvation to them? And aside from that, Paul's epistles contain numerous occasions stating that salvation (from Jesus) is "first for the Jews, then the Gentiles."

These three points that John Hagee makes require ignoring certain Biblical passages (such as the ones above in blue) as well as a rejection of half of Paul's statements. Now, does Hagee himself believe these words? Maybe he was just saying them in order to present the "defense" for the Jews? So, if he does believe these things, he is grossly ignoring key points in Scripture. And if he doesn't believe these things but merely presented them as the "advocate" for the Jews, then he is essentially arguing against what he knows to be Truth, which is simply inane. Now maybe there's another reason I haven't considered, but if the case is one of these two, then I personally don't think he should be teaching people Scripture.

moonglow
Mar 24th 2008, 03:30 PM
(Responding to the thread as a whole)

John Hagee claims (in a certain video circulating YouTube):

1 The Jews did not reject Jesus as the Messiah.
2 Jesus did not come to be the Messiah, and He denied "by word and deed" to be the Messiah.
3 Jesus never offered salvation to the Jews and can't be blamed for rejecting what they were never offered.

Biblical problems with...

Number 1
Mark 15:31-32
In the same way the chief priests and the teachers of the law mocked him among themselves. "He saved others," they said, "but he can't save himself! Let this Messiah, this King of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe." Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him.

The use of "this Messiah" (literally, "this anointed one") is derogatory and used as a mockery of Jesus. The "Jews" (being, the "chief priests" and the "teachers of the Law," as well as the many who called for Him to be crucified) did outright deny Jesus to be the Messiah. This is not to say all Jews rejected Him; obviously, many of the disciples and the other followers of Jesus were Jews, and they did accept Him as the Messiah, but in contradiction with what Hagee teaches, the majority of the Jews did (at least initially) reject Jesus as the Messiah.


Number 2
Mark 14:60-62
Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.

Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?"

"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

John 4:25-26
The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."

Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

Here, Jesus outright says He is the Messiah. Aside from this, Jesus never denied being the Messiah, He only told people to keep quiet about it. If a demon saw Jesus, the demon would cry out "You are the Holy One of God!" Why would they do such a thing if He wasn't the Messiah? Whenever people said Jesus was the Messiah, He told them to not say anything, but He never denied being the Messiah. By word and deed, Jesus outright called Himself the Messiah, in contradiction with what Hagee claimed.

Number 3
For one, the followers of Jesus were Jews. Simon Peter, James, John, etc. They were all Jews, and He very plainly offered salvation to them. He walked all around Judea and Galilee preaching salvation and the Kingdom of God to the Jews. If Jesus wasn't offering salvation to them, as Hagee says, why did He devote nearly His entire ministry to preaching salvation to them? And aside from that, Paul's epistles contain numerous occasions stating that salvation (from Jesus) is "first for the Jews, then the Gentiles."

These three points that John Hagee makes require ignoring certain Biblical passages (such as the ones above in blue) as well as a rejection of half of Paul's statements. Now, does Hagee himself believe these words? Maybe he was just saying them in order to present the "defense" for the Jews? So, if he does believe these things, he is grossly ignoring key points in Scripture. And if he doesn't believe these things but merely presented them as the "advocate" for the Jews, then he is essentially arguing against what he knows to be Truth, which is simply inane. Now maybe there's another reason I haven't considered, but if the case is one of these two, then I personally don't think he should be teaching people Scripture.

Studying'2Show already addressed this actually here:

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1577915&postcount=17 (Studying'2Show)


Here's Hagee's answer to this issue. https://www.jhm.org/ME2/dirmod.asp?s...2530B583FE9B95 We actually have already discussed this in this thread http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=117246

God Bless!

P.S. He released an updated version of the book because of the misunderstanding, but Youtube doesn't have that!

I agree that Jesus went to the Jews first...bible says so...lol.

Matthew 10:5-7

5 Jesus sent out the twelve apostles with these instructions: “Don’t go to the Gentiles or the Samaritans, 6 but only to the people of Israel—God’s lost sheep. 7 Go and announce to them that the Kingdom of Heaven is near.

Matthew 15:23-25
23 But Jesus gave her no reply, not even a word. Then his disciples urged him to send her away. “Tell her to go away,” they said. “She is bothering us with all her begging.”

24 Then Jesus said to the woman, “I was sent only to help God’s lost sheep—the people of Israel.”

25 But she came and worshiped him, pleading again, “Lord, help me!”

You cannot talk to a Jew today and them not know who Jesus was...who we claim He was. Though of course, many disagree that He was the Messiah...but they do acknowledge He lived and see Him as a great teacher or prophet.

God bless

IPet2_9
Mar 24th 2008, 05:26 PM
You cannot talk to a Jew today and them not know who Jesus was...who we claim He was. Though of course, many disagree that He was the Messiah...but they do acknowledge He lived and see Him as a great teacher or prophet.That has not been my experience. When I have witnessed to Jews, they usually say inflammatory things like, "Jesus didn't exist", or "Jesus is in Hell now, and He got what he deserved". I got another beauty: "The messiah will not ride into Jerusalem on a donkey, he will ride in a BMW". Then there's a few who say Jesus was "a Jewish rabbi crucified by the Romans" and the New Testament does not portray Him accurately.

The people who see Jesus as a great teacher and prophet are actually the Muslims.

daughter
Mar 24th 2008, 05:47 PM
It depends what Jews you are talking to. Most Jews I know I met when I was a student at Oxford, which means they are highly educated. The very educated Jews that I know all agree that Jesus did exist, because nobody who has studied history to a tertiary level in any honesty can say that He didn't.

Those Jews said that Jesus was a rabbi, misrepresented by Christians, who was crucified by the Romans. Some of them considered him to be a prophet. The ones who thought he was a prophet were, obviously, reform Jews, not Orthodox. But even some of my Orthodox friends had a fondness for Jesus. They thought He was wrong, but they admired His courage, and agreed that He'd obviously changed the world profoundly.

I can't remember... I think she was raised Orthodox, went to a reform synagogue at Oxford, and has since returned to Orthodox Judaism, but I think it was Smylin who said to me that she couldn't get over the fact that before Jesus every single biography she'd ever read of any historical character, they were all either emperors, princes, generals... even Buddha, she pointed out, was a prince.

Then along comes Jesus, and you've got, within a century or so (she went with a late date for the gospels) four biographies of a builder, a carpenter dude, from the poorest part of Israel. She thought He must have been someone special to change cultural mores like that.

"Of course," she said, "the gentiles couldn't respect a simple builder, they had to make out he was God..." That was her stumbling block. Not that He existed, not that He was potentially Messiah... but that He was God. And you can understand exactly why that would be a problem... the great thing for Jews is not to commit idolatry. They see believing Jesus is God as idolatry. I'm not saying they're right (obviously I don't agree with that) but I can see that they are trying to be faithful to God as He revealed Himself at Sinai.

Any Jew who said that Messiah would drive into Jerusalem in a BMW is probably not very well versed in scripture, and again, not representative of all Jews. Most Jews I know who heard that would probably gasp at the materialism of it.

moonglow
Mar 27th 2008, 05:16 PM
That has not been my experience. When I have witnessed to Jews, they usually say inflammatory things like, "Jesus didn't exist", or "Jesus is in Hell now, and He got what he deserved". I got another beauty: "The messiah will not ride into Jerusalem on a donkey, he will ride in a BMW". Then there's a few who say Jesus was "a Jewish rabbi crucified by the Romans" and the New Testament does not portray Him accurately.

The people who see Jesus as a great teacher and prophet are actually the Muslims.

Wow! That hasn't been my experience in the Jews I have talked too...they first know He lived, second see Him a teacher or prophet as I said. If they didn't believe He existed why would they say things like 'He got what he deserved..or he is in hell now'? No one would say that about someone they believed did not exist. For instance...image anyone saying that about Santa clause or the tooth fairy. People KNOW they did not exist (at least with santa clause not how he is portrayed today). So no one would say things like that to start with if they didn't know He existed. No one would ever say the tooth fairy was in hell! Because they know their is no such person! So they contradicted themselves by even saying such a thing to start with.

In Islam they do not deny that Jesus existed at all...He is in their Koran. But He is seen as a great prophet only and they will tell you when Allah comes back he will come back with Jesus AND Mohammad.

All three major religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam know Jesus lived as a man and did miracles. Any individual denying this is either out of touch with their own teachings or simply don't know what they are talking about. This is considered common knowledge and one of the things atheist cannot deny or overcome. Why would one man, be known in three separate religious beliefs like this? They differ on how He died along with who He really was. But none of them deny He ever lived.


Any Jew who said that Messiah would drive into Jerusalem in a BMW is probably not very well versed in scripture, and again, not representative of all Jews. Most Jews I know who heard that would probably gasp at the materialism of it.

Really! That is a new one on me! And it certainly not the idea of the Messiah they are looking for based on articles on Jewish websites either.

God bless

DAISHI
Mar 30th 2008, 11:49 AM
I get the impression that he's talking about the secular Messiah as expected, since he goes into the part about the conspiracy and such. When he discusses how they could reject him since he never claimed to be the Messiah, I think again he's right in the context of the secular Messiah. But it also sounds like he's trying to be inflamatory in that sense in order to spark interest in his book.

DAISHI
Mar 30th 2008, 11:51 AM
God works through whomever He wants too and how He wants too.
Amen!

Absolutely. Paul did say that some preach for their own purposes and yet the name of Christ is still spread.