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danield
Mar 18th 2008, 09:23 PM
I just do not understand how someone like Rev Wright can be a pastor. Any pastor that says the lords name in vain especially in the pulpit does not have the Lord in his heart. I am sick of hearing people repeat his remarks on news and I am not a pastor. How can the deacons of that church allow him to say such things? I know if I were a member of that church, I would not only leave that church, but I would have many words to say to that pastor for leading his members down a spiteful, hateful road!

I try to follow many different denominations of preachers, but I have never come across anyone like him. Are there many churches out there that preach this type of sermons on Sundays?

menJesus
Mar 18th 2008, 09:27 PM
I`m with you, danield! But, how can he have a congregation??? Who is willing to sit under a man like that???

It sounds more like a militant group meeting, than a church meeting... reminds me of white supremists and Adolph Hitler and Jim Jones... and radical Islam :(

Fenris
Mar 18th 2008, 09:30 PM
I guess anyone can be ordained and set up a congregation. If you surf Youtube and find videos of him preaching, his congregants seem really into his speeches too.

menJesus
Mar 18th 2008, 09:33 PM
Oh my! I believe Obama has just effectively, figuratively, cut his own throat, here...

its going to be between Hillary and McCain, and McCain will win. :)

Revinius
Mar 20th 2008, 04:52 AM
2 Timothy 4:3-4 "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

menJesus
Mar 20th 2008, 08:18 AM
ProjectPeter says this is kind of preaching is happening in a lot of churches. What a scary thought. This certainly makes me reluctant to go visit a new church.

One more sign of the last days???

Duane Morse
Mar 20th 2008, 08:48 AM
I just do not understand how someone like Rev Wright can be a pastor. Any pastor that says the lords name in vain especially in the pulpit does not have the Lord in his heart. I am sick of hearing people repeat his remarks on news and I am not a pastor. How can the deacons of that church allow him to say such things? I know if I were a member of that church, I would not only leave that church, but I would have many words to say to that pastor for leading his members down a spiteful, hateful road!

I try to follow many different denominations of preachers, but I have never come across anyone like him. Are there many churches out there that preach this type of sermons on Sundays?
People follow that which they are most akin to.

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

daughter
Mar 20th 2008, 10:39 AM
Oh my... I'm just listening to this idiot on Youtube. He's just said that Obama's not rich! And this isn't preaching, this is prosletysing. His only point about Jesus is that "He was a poor black man, in a culture run by and controlled by white people."

Is that what he gets from the Bible? Really?

I think it highly likely that Jesus was dark skinned... but do we actually know? And should we actually care? If God had thought it was important, wouldn't He have filled the Bible with descriptions of the skin colour of the various people in it? Now, why didn't He?

Oh... hang on...

Because it doesn't matter!!!

This guy's not into the Bible at all, other than as something to pick through like an old crow looking for scraps to sustain him. I know that there are white racists out there too, but this guy really is on a different planet from the rest of us.

cnw
Mar 21st 2008, 03:16 AM
Well hey...I mean if you want a good political foul mouthed Sunday morning church service full of bigotry, this mans your preacher....of course you should only go there if your black
(for the record, I have two black brothers and one of my closest friends is black and they wouldn't sit under this man!!!)

Athanasius
Mar 21st 2008, 05:26 AM
Wow, he equated Barack Obama with Jesus. . .

menJesus
Mar 21st 2008, 08:52 AM
Oh my goodness! Why do I keep thinking of the words "false prophet"?

May God open the eyes of his congregation, and let them know the Truth.

Clavicula_Nox
Mar 21st 2008, 02:19 PM
If Jesus were black, how is it that he would be black and everyone around him would have been white? Sure, maybe the legionaries, but does anyone know what legion had jurisdiction of Judea? Who knows, it might have been one those legions made up of the local populace.

Were the Jews all rich white honky men? Does he believe the entire point was the sacrifice upon the cross or does he believe the point was that he was persecuted for being a black man praying at the wrong place at the wrong time and the rich white honky pig police showed up and had to rodney king him?

This is getting ridiculous.

StarscreamX-2
Mar 21st 2008, 08:38 PM
Gonna be "devil's Advocate" here:

Wright can say and do anything he wants to the point of not breaking any law.....which he kinda did by "supporting" Obama....As an American he has a right to do and say what he feels is right. Now their are folk here on this message board that will accept that my "Theology" is demonic in origin (OSAS, Rapture, etc, etc) So why should any one be offended with Wright?

Wrights "theology" is nothing new (Nothing is new under the Sun) and his concepts are nearly as old as Christianity itself. The Catholic Church has a White Jesus on the Cross.....Most of us have a Blue eye long hair hippy picture of Jesus in our house.

Done being "devil's Advocate" now.

What shows Wrights ignorance is that the "White" guy in charge of Jesus' trial found no Guilt in him.....and it was the *ahem* Jews (not being of the "white" race) that cried "CRUCIFY HIM!" and then let a murderer go.......



Eric.

Athanasius
Mar 21st 2008, 08:56 PM
Wright can say and do anything he wants to the point of not breaking any law.....which he kinda did by "supporting" Obama....As an American he has a right to do and say what he feels is right. Now their are folk here on this message board that will accept that my "Theology" is demonic in origin (OSAS, Rapture, etc, etc) So why should any one be offended with Wright?

Wrights "theology" is nothing new (Nothing is new under the Sun) and his concepts are nearly as old as Christianity itself. The Catholic Church has a White Jesus on the Cross.....Most of us have a Blue eye long hair hippy picture of Jesus in our house.

Done being "devil's Advocate" now.

What shows Wrights ignorance is that the "White" guy in charge of Jesus' trial found no Guilt in him.....and it was the *ahem* Jews (not being of the "white" race) that cried "CRUCIFY HIM!" and then let a murderer go.......


Wright can do and say whatever he wants for all I care. But if he's teaching from scripture, as he reminded his congregation in one of his videos, then he has to stick to what scripture teaches. His sermons are esiegetical, and that's completely unacceptable.

The different 'versions' of Jesus is a moot point, in my opinion. If we're doing something bad by having a 'white Jesus'. Then Wright is doing exactly the same in victimizing a 'black Jesus' (Of which Jesus would have been dark skinned, but not Black).

And yes, OSAS is demonic:rofl:

cnw
Mar 22nd 2008, 02:34 AM
WHAT???????


Wright can say and do anything he wants to the point of not breaking any law

OH YA EXCEPT GODS LAW. We can't have the attitude that preachers who profess to be saved can teach anything. This guy cant be saved though...
Xel, osas isn't Demonic, just not Scriptural...:rolleyes:

Athanasius
Mar 22nd 2008, 02:51 AM
Xel, osas isn't Demonic, just not Scriptural...:rolleyes:

I know it's not demonic :) I also know it's not scriptural :P

RoadWarrior
Mar 22nd 2008, 02:56 AM
Well hey...I mean if you want a good political foul mouthed Sunday morning church service full of bigotry, this mans your preacher....of course you should only go there if your black
(for the record, I have two black brothers and one of my closest friends is black and they wouldn't sit under this man!!!)

This isn't exactly how his church is, though. There are white people who go there. I saw a youtube clip of a woman (white) telling what a great church it is, how loving the people are there. Oh, and she is one of the ministers there.

And watch the audience in the film clips, you do see the occasional white person. However it is true that not a lot of white Americans are comfortable with the style of worship that is frequently encountered in black churches.

baxpack7
Mar 22nd 2008, 03:44 AM
Mt 5:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

All we can do is bless him and pray for him. In doing so, we'll heap burning coals down upon his head.

Duane Morse
Mar 22nd 2008, 08:23 AM
In doing so, we'll heap burning coals down upon his head.
That is an admirable thing to do, to be sure.

(note the sarcasm?)

Follow_Me_Infantry
Mar 22nd 2008, 02:20 PM
No different than Phelps, another false "pastor" that has the title without the heart.

These "reverends" (pffffft) will always exist because they'll always have a following. Hate will always exist until Jesus restarts the world and brings it back to God's once-intended purpose. Until then, Satan holds the lease on this planet.

It's not up to me to judge their salvation, but if I look at scripture I am confident in saying that their actions are certainly opposite of what Jesus tells us to do.

Pray for them.

diffangle
Mar 22nd 2008, 09:07 PM
What shows Wrights ignorance is that the "White" guy in charge of Jesus' trial found no Guilt in him.....and it was the *ahem* Jews (not being of the "white" race) that cried "CRUCIFY HIM!" and then let a murderer go.......

Or more importantly is the no man took His life from Him, He laid it down Himself...

Jhn 10:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=10&verse=17&version=kjv#17)Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Jhn 10:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=10&verse=18&version=kjv#18)No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Fenris
Mar 24th 2008, 12:43 PM
Gonna be "devil's Advocate" here:

Wright can say and do anything he wants to the point of not breaking any law.....

Of course. But when Obama publicly supports him, it says something about the man who would be president.

StarscreamX-2
Mar 24th 2008, 04:47 PM
Fenris,

Well, once again I could say we all have elements/persons in our lives that may color use wrong....BUT, I agree with you......

Fenris
Mar 24th 2008, 05:06 PM
Fenris,

Well, once again I could say we all have elements/persons in our lives that may color use wrong....BUT, I agree with you......
Yah, of course. But I don't think any of is here hang out with someone who falls into the Wright category. Further, Wright isn't an acquaintance or friend of Obama's; he's his spiritual leader. A guy Obama chose to go and listen to for the last 20 years, a man he donated money to and a man who inspired the title of Obama's book.

diffangle
Mar 24th 2008, 10:14 PM
Yah, of course. But I don't think any of is here hang out with someone who falls into the Wright category. Further, Wright isn't an acquaintance or friend of Obama's; he's his spiritual leader. A guy Obama chose to go and listen to for the last 20 years, a man he donated money to and a man who inspired the title of Obama's book.
And sits on Obama's advisory commitee.

pnewton
Mar 24th 2008, 10:18 PM
While I can not stand the Reverend Wright on many levels, this controversy has made me think about the American legacy. After all, we did enslave on race to satisfy the economic greed of another. We did wipe out another race almost entirely so that we could possess their land. We engaged in at least one war of conqest for land when we fought Mexico. Yet all of this is now in the past.

Today, we only have the black stain of allowing the slaughter of millions of the unborn who give their young lives so that women do not have to be inconvenienced. We are increasing tolerant of homosexuality, divorce and sexual promiscuity. When one considers what God did to the cities of Sodom, Ai, Jericho, etc., one wonders how much longer we have.

Radical Islamic Muslims call us the Great Satan. It may the one thing they are right about.

Yes, it will preach. I don't think Wright can see beyond his hatred long enough to do it though.

diffangle
Mar 24th 2008, 10:38 PM
[quote=pnewton;1582907]While I can not stand the Reverend Wright on many levels, this controversy has made me think about the American legacy. After all, we did enslave on race to satisfy the economic greed of another. We did wipe out another race almost entirely so that we could possess their land. We engaged in at least one war of conqest for land when we fought Mexico. Yet all of this is now in the past.

Yes there are evil white people, but there are evil black people, there are evil asian people, there are evil hispanic people, there are evil...

There's also good white people, good black people, good asian people, good hispanic people, good...

Like I told someone the other day, white people also fought hard and died in order to abolish slavery and some black people were enslaving black people long before whites were and some black people still enslave black people in Africa... the point is that evil and good exists in all races so why so much focus on whites? The blanket statements against whites is wrong, period... I in no way shape or form have enslaved another human being, I have not forced them to take drugs, nor have I injected the AIDS virus into anyone. :(



Today, we only have the black stain of allowing the slaughter of millions of the unborn who give their young lives so that women do not have to be inconvenienced.
And the inconvenience of men too.



We are increasing tolerant of homosexuality, divorce and sexual promiscuity. When one considers what God did to the cities of Sodom, Ai, Jericho, etc., one wonders how much longer we have.

Indeed time will tell. :cry:



Radical Islamic Muslims call us the Great Satan. It may the one thing they are right about.

As if they're any better with their jihad.



Yes, it will preach. I don't think Wright can see beyond his hatred long enough to do it though.

Agreed.

IPet2_9
Mar 24th 2008, 11:07 PM
Seems to me that when Rev. Wright used bad language on the pulpit, people didn't notice or take issue that much--until he voiced that he thought 9/11 was an inside job. Now all of a sudden it's a problem and he needs to be removed.



Radical Islamic Muslims call us the Great Satan. It may the one thing they are right about. As if they're any better with their jihad.

We need to take the log out of our own eye first. I am thinking of a country right now who has toppled two countries in the past decade with religions other than their own, and installed puppet governments. And now they are eyeballing a third. When we take the log out, I am sure we can see who that country is. That country sure is on a jihad themselves, and they ain't radical Muslim.

diffangle
Mar 25th 2008, 01:40 AM
[quote=IPet2_9;1582958]Seems to me that when Rev. Wright used bad language on the pulpit, people didn't notice or take issue that much--until he voiced that he thought 9/11 was an inside job. Now all of a sudden it's a problem and he needs to be removed.

I don't have issue with that... the thing I take issue with is the racist rhetoric, the white verses black crud.




We need to take the log out of our own eye first. I am thinking of a country right now who has toppled two countries in the past decade with religions other than their own, and installed puppet governments. And now they are eyeballing a third. When we take the log out, I am sure we can see who that country is. That country sure is on a jihad themselves, and they ain't radical Muslim.

I'm not claiming America doesn't have any blood on our hands but how many Chrisitan countries are there? How many Muslim countries? Like America, blood was shed in order to obtain 22+ Muslim countries.

Clavicula_Nox
Mar 25th 2008, 02:34 AM
Is America a Christian country in the same sense Iran is a muslim nation?

MikeAD
Mar 25th 2008, 02:54 AM
Is America a Christian country in the same sense Iran is a muslim nation?

In no way are the two analagous. Literally no way.

A female In Pakistan and Iran (during certain times of the day) you can still be tried (and given the death penalty) for walking with a male that is not in her immediate family (husband father brother).

I hate to say it, but I understand that law, or at least where it comes from in the Qu'ran, but what I don't get is the law that goes along with that. If I were to kill a man and a woman for holding hands, I will most likely not be charged as long as the judge/jury think I actually thought those two were illegally fraternizeing.

In Muslim countries, laws are diriven directly from that particular countries interpretation of the Qu'ran, the Hadith, etc. etc.

In America our laws, while some are ethically similar to Judeo Christian laws, they are in no way reflective of our religion. Further, I would find it hard for a President or leader of the US to defend forein policy in religious terms.

diffangle
Mar 25th 2008, 03:30 AM
Is America a Christian country in the same sense Iran is a muslim nation?
Not really, we have alot more religious freedom in this country than the Muslim countries have in theirs.

danield
Mar 25th 2008, 04:00 AM
You know I have kept up with this situation extremely carefully because it hurts me to know that we have a pastor preaching this type of behavior in America. Even though this man was trying to say that God will condemn America for the things in which it has done in the past, he actually said the Lords name in vain. Many people are quickly overlooking this by saying well I have to read his entire sermon to see what he was saying. This is what baffles me. This man took the Lords name in vain plain and simple to sensationalize that God will curse America. It took me a millisecond to understand what he was saying and how he was saying it. I knew that he was saying that God will curse America for her actions, but he also was saying it in a way to grandstand himself in front of people. He put God down in order to lift himself up in front of his congregation.

If you respect the lord you would never put those words together, and you hate the words when you hear someone say it in public. As a pastor you would not let them slip out of your mouth because it should not be in your heart and what is in your heart is what you say. There have been many people on this board who have criticized sins of other people but no one here ever even thought to use the lord’s name in Vain to say that the lord would curse someone because of any one particular sin.

I would also put the question to the Moderators of this board, if you saw someone use that language to describe something on this board what would you do? How long would it take you to edit the post and sensor the poster?

As far and the other things he has said, a lot of them are racist. I just could not get over what he said about Natlie Hollaway and her death in Aruba by the hands of those boys. It came across to me like she deserved what she got. We have no clue as to what exactly happened to that girl, and even if she did have a drink she did not deserve to be raped and murdered and thrown to the sharks. We do not know for sure that is what happened but it sure is suspicious that a beautiful girl left a night club with 3 boys never to be seen again. There are other things that might have happened like a date rape drug could have been involved. We just do not know. And to say those cold things about her while he mother is reeling from grief is just plain hateful.

As far as his comments about America, I too think America may be in for rough times ahead. I know I probably could have said it better from the pulpit then he did and I am not a preacher, but none the less I too think many people are in love with money instead of their fellow man. And racism is alive and well in America. But as for a pastor, I think he should be trying to break those barriers and bring one another together instead of fueling the fire.

As far as Obama knowing what was going on, there is no doubt he did. How can he teach at Harvard Law and understand one of the more complicated professions and not understand what his pastor was saying on Sunday? His wife did too. He distanced himself from Rev Wright prior to the election knowing it would be an issue. Also Fox News did not bring this completely to light only after Obama has all but beaten Clinton. I am sure they did this because they feel that they can with this controversy help elect McCain. Could you imagine what Super Tuesday would have looked like if this would have come to light prior to that election? It was really convenient. But I personally feel that it is all part of God’s plan.

diffangle
Mar 25th 2008, 04:23 AM
The prophet Elisha cursed in YHWH's Name...

2Ki 2:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=2Ki&chapter=2&verse=22&version=kjv#22)So the waters were healed unto this day, according to the saying of Elisha which he spake.

2Ki 2:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=2Ki&chapter=2&verse=23&version=kjv#23)¶And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

2Ki 2:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=2Ki&chapter=2&verse=24&version=kjv#24)And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of YHWH. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

danield
Mar 25th 2008, 04:55 AM
The prophet Elisha cursed in YHWH's Name...

2Ki 2:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=2Ki&chapter=2&verse=22&version=kjv#22)So the waters were healed unto this day, according to the saying of Elisha which he spake.

2Ki 2:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=2Ki&chapter=2&verse=23&version=kjv#23)¶And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

2Ki 2:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=2Ki&chapter=2&verse=24&version=kjv#24)And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of YHWH. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Are you saying that Elisha used the Lords name in Vain to curse them? You know it would have been very easy to say God will * America! If the sentence is used in this way it would compliment this scripture. Having no respect for the lord like Mr. Wright did is a cardinal sin. I do not think Elisha handled his verbage to disrespect for the lord in any way. Do you love what Mr. Wright said or do you love the lord? It is that simple. And I do not understand why people take up for Mr. Wright instead of taking up for the Lord!

diffangle
Mar 25th 2008, 05:05 AM
Are you saying that Elisha used the Lords name in Vain to curse them? You know it would have been very easy to say God will * America! If the sentence is used in this way it would compliment this scripture. Having no respect for the lord like Mr. Wright did is a cardinal sin. I do not think Elisha handled his verbage to disrespect for the lord in any way. Do you love what Mr. Wright said or do you love the lord? It is that simple. And I do not understand why people take up for Mr. Wright instead of taking up for the Lord!
Doh! :o When have I taken up for Wright? If you read my responses in this thread and the one that Fenris started on Wright, you'll see that I'm no fan of his ;) ... he's a racist through and through.

All I did by posting that Scripture was to ponder that a curse was done in YHWH's name, Wright is obviously just as angry at America as Elisha was at those little children so I wonder how different Wright's cursing in His Name is as opposed to Elisha's cursing in His Name. :dunno:

danield
Mar 25th 2008, 05:21 AM
Doh! :o When have I taken up for Wright? If you read my responses in this thread and the one that Fenris started on Wright, you'll see that I'm no fan of his ;) ... he's a racist through and through.

All I did by posting that Scripture was to ponder that a curse was done in YHWH's name, Wright is obviously just as angry at America as Elisha was at those little children so I wonder how different Wright's cursing in His Name is as opposed to Elisha's cursing in His Name. :dunno:
I am thrilled to see that you do not agree with him! :pp As far as pondering what Elisha would have said I am sure he handled it in the way that I described! If you love someone it should be the first thing on your mind not to offend them. What he said is very offensive, and he said it to elevate himself at the expense of degrading the lord. I am sure he will come out and make a comment of how he meant it in another way, but he will make another sin by telling a lie. The lord will know his heart, but what disturbs me the most is how he is leading others down his path!

pnewton
Mar 25th 2008, 11:23 AM
Are you saying that Elisha used the Lords name in Vain to curse them? You know it would have been very easy to say God will * America! I agree, an this is what I tried to say earlier, perhaps poorly. Where Wright crosses the line is using the imperative to call down a curse upon America. Lest I point out the obvious, he is not Elisha. Elisha's postition in Israel was singular, in that he was the lone prophet of God in the theocratic state of Israel. He was not a Christian, but a Jewish prophet. I would rather look to the words of James.

James 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
God's wrath will fall where it may. God does not need the Reverends Wright or Phelps cheering Him on.

Fenris
Mar 25th 2008, 12:18 PM
Seems to me that when Rev. Wright used bad language on the pulpit, people didn't notice or take issue that much--until he voiced that he thought 9/11 was an inside job. Now all of a sudden it's a problem and he needs to be removed.


No, it's not a problem and he doesn't have to be removed. This is a free country and he is entitled to his opinion.

The issue is that a presidential candidate is quite taken with this pastor. It says a lot about him. A lot of disturbing things, IMHO.

Clavicula_Nox
Mar 25th 2008, 12:32 PM
Not really, we have alot more religious freedom in this country than the Muslim countries have in theirs.


n no way are the two analagous. Literally no way.

A female In Pakistan and Iran (during certain times of the day) you can still be tried (and given the death penalty) for walking with a male that is not in her immediate family (husband father brother).

I hate to say it, but I understand that law, or at least where it comes from in the Qu'ran, but what I don't get is the law that goes along with that. If I were to kill a man and a woman for holding hands, I will most likely not be charged as long as the judge/jury think I actually thought those two were illegally fraternizeing.

In Muslim countries, laws are diriven directly from that particular countries interpretation of the Qu'ran, the Hadith, etc. etc.

In America our laws, while some are ethically similar to Judeo Christian laws, they are in no way reflective of our religion. Further, I would find it hard for a President or leader of the US to defend forein policy in religious terms.

I know, that's what I was implying, thanks for backing me up! :hug:

MikeAD
Mar 25th 2008, 02:20 PM
I know, that's what I was implying, thanks for backing me up! :hug:

I know, but it really is odd that people still claim the the US is a religious/Christian nation.

I know I've posted this before but I'll post again, last semester I got the chance to meet executioners from Pakistan and Iran while I was studying forms of execution.

They were so proud that "we don't need the electric chair we have the strongest arm on earth, 1.5 strokes and its over" referring to the sword. They were VERY nice and well foudned in scripture but they lived in a society where their profession was so glorified. They talked about the fact that at any time there are a dozen women waiting execution just for eating at the wrong time of the day or playing soccer too late. But the strangest part was the one guy, was one of many children and they all worked to put him through school. I guess it would be like the equivelant of getting into Harvard or MIT and your parents working 2 jobs because they are so proud you got in...

diffangle
Mar 25th 2008, 02:34 PM
I know, but it really is odd that people still claim the the US is a religious/Christian nation.

I know I've posted this before but I'll post again, last semester I got the chance to meet executioners from Pakistan and Iran while I was studying forms of execution.

They were so proud that "we don't need the electric chair we have the strongest arm on earth, 1.5 strokes and its over" referring to the sword. They were VERY nice and well foudned in scripture but they lived in a society where their profession was so glorified. They talked about the fact that at any time there are a dozen women waiting execution just for eating at the wrong time of the day or playing soccer too late. But the strangest part was the one guy, was one of many children and they all worked to put him through school. I guess it would be like the equivelant of getting into Harvard or MIT and your parents working 2 jobs because they are so proud you got in...
Ugh! That's so jacked up. :B

Clavicula_Nox
Mar 25th 2008, 04:05 PM
I know, but it really is odd that people still claim the the US is a religious/Christian nation.

I know I've posted this before but I'll post again, last semester I got the chance to meet executioners from Pakistan and Iran while I was studying forms of execution.

They were so proud that "we don't need the electric chair we have the strongest arm on earth, 1.5 strokes and its over" referring to the sword. They were VERY nice and well foudned in scripture but they lived in a society where their profession was so glorified. They talked about the fact that at any time there are a dozen women waiting execution just for eating at the wrong time of the day or playing soccer too late. But the strangest part was the one guy, was one of many children and they all worked to put him through school. I guess it would be like the equivelant of getting into Harvard or MIT and your parents working 2 jobs because they are so proud you got in...


Wow, how did you arrange for those interviews?

MikeAD
Mar 25th 2008, 04:22 PM
Wow, how did you arrange for those interviews?

Guest speakers at a lecture, here in Delaware.

Clavicula_Nox
Mar 25th 2008, 05:05 PM
Wow. This may seem dumb, but did they give off a..I dunno..the presence of a killer? Do you know what I'm talking about? Where you can look at someone, or be near someone, and just know? I was made aware of this awhile ago when talking to my fiance about some deployment experiences. She said she knew I had killed from looking in my eyes when we first met, others have said similar things about how you can tell a natural warrior from the way they carry themselves.

I dunno, it just seems surreal to hear it being talked about non-chalantly.

MrAnteater
Mar 25th 2008, 05:12 PM
The guy has a lot of hate in his heat. I prayed that him and other people proclaiming to preach in the name of God with an underlying message of hate receive peace in their lives.

Fenris
Mar 25th 2008, 06:10 PM
Great response I just found:



Dear Senator Obama:


I have now read and reread your speech, understanding you take this to be a “teaching moment,” I have applied myself to its lessons. But some questions have arisen and I need a little more clarification.


You tell me Reverend Jeremiah Wright’s horrendous remarks will take on a different meaning if I will but contextualize them and understand he has seen terrible things in his time, a burden shared by all African-Americans. A fair proposition; from Kant to Auden and beyond we learn we define by comparison and only by internalizing can we grasp true meaning. So I have done precisely that: looked inside myself to understand how hatred might need to be contextualized.


I did not have to look far. I remembered how, as a boy, I sat at the Passover Seder with my sister’s Polish-born husband and the remnants of his family. The remnants of five families to be precise, for the 12 weary souls around that table were all that remained of what had once been 300. The others – their loved ones, their sons, their daughters, their hopes and dreams – were gone, their lives consumed by zyklon-b gas, their mortal remains wisps of smoke from a Büchenwald chimney. These people, who had seen and suffered so much, read of my ancestor’s deliverance from Egypt exactly as the Bible instructed: in the present tense, as if it happened to them. “For with a mighty hand the Lord thy God raised thee out of Egypt and brought you from slavery to freedom.” But as they spoke – or really whispered such was the fear and holiness of the moment – they were not conjuring up Egyptian slavery as a present experience but recalling the horrors they themselves had witnessed, murder on a scope once unimaginable and only made possible by perverted technology. Though their Yiddish was foreign to me, I picked up the odd word. When they spoke of the Concentration Camp guards, they called them the Ukrainians. When they remembered the betrayal of their neighbors, I could distinguish the word Pole. But above all, it was the Germans, the hated Germans. The Hun. The Devil’s Scourge. And I was filled with a righteous hatred. Had I, in that moment, the power to end the life of every German on earth, I might have well done so. That is a shameful thought. I am humiliated by the memory. But perhaps, in context, you can understand my homicidal rage and forgive me, and should I have chosen to preach that doctrine in a place of worship and stir an audience to its feet as it cheered my righteous fury, I trust you would offer me the fig leaf of “context.”


As the Seder ended, my brother-in-law, seeing my rage, put his arm around my shoulder and asked what troubled me. I stammered the best explanation I could. He smiled, “Don’t be a fool,” he said, “the Germans left so many of us dead and stole the joy from so many that remain. So now you want to give them the final victory by allowing your own life to be consumed and twisted and deformed by the same hatred? Leave it to them. That’s why we, at this table, forgive. Not forget, but forgive. You just heard how Moses told the Israelites not to celebrate the death of the Egyptians in the Reed Sea. Learn.”


But his words were empty to me.


A few years later, work on a particular film took me to Munich, and as I drove past the road signs to Dachau, past Hitler’s favorite spot, “The English Gardens,” to my suite at the Bayerischof Hotel (where The Fuehrer himself once stayed) I was physically ill. I couldn’t stand to hear the German tongue, nor bear to see Germans smile, and when I noticed a man in traditional Bavarian dress I again felt my homicidal anger rise. I survived that trip, came back to the safety of my blessed America, promising never to return to part of the world that was home to alien races who had destroyed so many people just like me.


Sometime after that, I was invited to participate on a panel on “Hollywood and Stereotypes” sponsored by the American Jewish Committee and the Konrad Adenauer Foundation. It was against my instinct, but a good friend had asked I participate and so I did. It began with a clip from Hollywood movies picturing stereotypical Germans and ended with the famous moment in Casablanca where the French stand and sing “La Marseillaise”. What a crock, I thought, Senator! After all, the short story upon which the film was based was set in Marseilles where the French were happily arresting Jews for transport to their own concentration camp at Drancy. Besides France had yet to apologize for her diligent rounding up and deportation of Jews even after the successes of D-Day. And yet they considered themselves victims which meant never having to say they were sorry. My first co-panelist to speak was a young woman, a German filmmaker. She spoke of how growing up as a German she felt ashamed and humiliated whenever it was necessary to admit her lineage and how her life was about working to ease her shame. It was pure self-hatred. Senator, by some strange alchemy I heard myself explaining to her the mantle of guilt did not fall upon the shoulders of her generation. In fact, I found myself describing Germany’s honest attempt to come to terms with the horrors committed in its name. I spoke of all the things they had done from which the French, the Ukrainians, the Poles had run. How they taught in their schools the truth of their actions, how they policed their civil society and punished words or acts that had echoes of that time, how they worked tirelessly to make reparation to those survivors not stamped out by their hobnailed boots. They had sought atonement. That is not say anti-Semitism and anti-Semites did not persist in Germany. Of course they did, as they do everywhere. But they are no longer the soul or intent of the German nation, they are seen for the abhorrent aberration they truly are. Mind you, Senator, the “new” Germans did not ask for forgiveness; they knew this was not within the power of humankind and could only be given by the grace of God. They acted out their atonement from pure understanding of what had gone before.


And in that instant I realized my hatred was unjustified. The “context” was false. I was nursing the anger for my own psychic advantage and not because the current state of humanity or my own experience gave it justice. And I shed my anger. And when another film project took me to Germany, my journey was completely different. I’m not saying as I sat in the lobby of the Hotel Vier Jahreszeiten Kimpinski in Munich I couldn’t help but imagine it filled with SS Officers enjoying the fruits of their murdering conquest. Of course I did. But I also understood the young Germans around me could not be held to that account. When one of my colleagues, also Jewish, made a derogatory remark I engaged him, and with surprising ease found he agreed it was time to let go. I threw away the comfort of context, spoke the truth to him. And it freed me. Now, this is not true for all Jews, Senator; some still dwell on that bitterness, and you would say, understandable, given the “context.” Perhaps. But they are not our soul or intent. They are a past generation and we do not look to them for leadership. We teach redemption. We try to hold them to some form of account.


That is the teaching opportunity I hoped you would evoke: not explaining Wright’s outrage to me, but explaining his outrageousness to him. That’s how we’ll reach the postracial era: by no longer justifying ourselves with what was, instead speaking to what now exists. Not deny the past, but recognize that’s what it is: past.


You say you are devoted to Reverend Wright because he brought you to Christ. I can only imagine how powerful a relationship that forges. But, my imperfect understanding of the Christian Faith tells me you can do him an equally magnificent service: You can help bring him back to Christ. Show him redemption and salvation lie not in the satisfaction of doing little dances in a pulpit while you slander good and decent people. Teach him that great leadership and Christian love abjures the very filth – and I pick that word deliberately – that he spews on an apparently regular basis. After all, Senator, you know our government did not invent the HIV virus to kill African-Americans. You know, Senator, this is not the United States of KKK America. You know the truth of 9/11. At least you should. Both you and Michelle have benefited mightily from the new spirit that has come to America in the last two generations. I thought you were part of that. I thought you were post-racial.


But in your silence, in your justifications, in your facile instruction to contextualize, you seem just a more presentable version of those dreary self-promoters, Sharpton, Jackson, Bakewell and the rest. Surely this is not you. Please, Senator, be brave. Lead. From a position of honesty where context is our daily reality, not drawn from bitter memories, no matter how justified they once might have been. Deny Jeremiah Wright your comfort of “context”. Be Presidential. To all Americans.


Yours sincerely, and in prayer for the Grace of God,
Lionel Chetwynd


PS – I would like to discuss your stereotyping of “typical” white people whose only valid dissatisfaction is apparently the occasional irritation at the misuse of affirmative action. But enough for now. Perhaps another time.





Lionel Chetwynd is an Oscar and Emmy Award nominated filmmaker living in Los Angeles.

MikeAD
Mar 25th 2008, 06:26 PM
Wow. This may seem dumb, but did they give off a..I dunno..the presence of a killer? Do you know what I'm talking about? Where you can look at someone, or be near someone, and just know? I was made aware of this awhile ago when talking to my fiance about some deployment experiences. She said she knew I had killed from looking in my eyes when we first met, others have said similar things about how you can tell a natural warrior from the way they carry themselves.

I dunno, it just seems surreal to hear it being talked about non-chalantly.

Heres the thing, no, really. They seemd like the average run of the mill guy. They were really educated in forms of execution that dated back many centuries, they had a wide knowledge on international law and the law of their respective countries.

I wouldn't say that I would want to spend a night with them or anything, but thats what I always found so odd...its like their calling from God, they see it as an honor, or at least an obligation.

RoadWarrior
Mar 25th 2008, 08:09 PM
Great response I just found:



Fenris, this response is EXCELLENT. Thank you for sharing it.

menJesus
Mar 25th 2008, 10:56 PM
The guy has a lot of hate in his heart. I prayed that him and other people proclaiming to preach in the name of God with an underlying message of hate receive peace in their lives.

Amen and amen. Praying for him will do more than all the angry words in the world - justified though they may be. :(

Warrior4God
Mar 29th 2008, 11:39 PM
I think this pastor isn't a bad man. I think he is bitter and a bit misguided, though. He is sick of seeing the black race suffering all the injustices over the many decades that they have. He is a pastor, and should be more peaceful and godly in his speech and his actions, but in the end he is just a man. He is not perfect. Hopefully somebody can speak some calming and loving words of wisdom to him to help him see the light. :hmm:

Jeanne D
Mar 30th 2008, 08:53 AM
Some day Reverend Wright will stand before the judgement throne and have to answer for the hatred and bitterness he holds in his heart.
He isn't going to be able to make excuses for it by pointing his finger at everyone else. God is going to want to hear what he did as an individual and how he chose to handle that hatred.

Jeanne

menJesus
Mar 30th 2008, 10:49 AM
Amen. Not only for himself, but for infecting his congregation with that same hatred and bitterness.

Warrior4God
Mar 30th 2008, 03:34 PM
The last two posts hold truth in them, but before you go throwing stones, think about this. How would you feel if people called you n***er all the time while growing up? Treated you like you were less than human because your skin is dark? I'm thinking you would hold some resentment in your heart as well. I'm not saying he is right for the things he has said, but to be honest it's understandable. You seem to have a lot of criticism and judgment for the man but not much sympathy or compassion for the things he must've gone through as a black man. :hmm:

diffangle
Mar 30th 2008, 04:37 PM
The last two posts hold truth in them, but before you go throwing stones, think about this. How would you feel if people called you n***er all the time while growing up? Treated you like you were less than human because your skin is dark? I'm thinking you would hold some resentment in your heart as well. I'm not saying he is right for the things he has said, but to be honest it's understandable. You seem to have a lot of criticism and judgment for the man but not much sympathy or compassion for the things he must've gone through as a black man. :hmm:
He's a preacher, Scripturally speaking... they're held to a higher standard than the average Joe. Our Messiah didn't teach hate all people of a particular race b/c a few from that race persecuted you at one point in time. He taught us to love our enemy, to turn the other cheek, to walk an extra mile when asked. There's no excuse for racial prejudice other than it being plain ol' hatred. Hatred is not what Yahushua taught. :(

danield
Mar 30th 2008, 07:16 PM
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/27/obamas-former-pastor-builds-a-multimillion-dollar-retirement-home/

Another interesting twist to this his ministry.



FOX News has uncovered documents that indicate Wright is about to move to a 10,340-square-foot, four-bedroom home in suburban Chicago, currently under construction in a gated community.

“Some people think deals like this are hypocritical. Jeremiah Wright himself criticizes people from the pulpit for middle classism, for too much materialism,” said Andrew Walsh, Associate Director of the Leonard E. Greenberg Center for the Study of Religion in Public Life with Trinity College in Hartford, Conn.


Public records of the sale show Trinity initially obtained a $10 million bank loan to purchase the property and build a new house on the land.
But further investigation with tax and real estate attorneys showed that the church had actually secured a $1.6 million mortgage for the home purchase, and attached a $10 million line of credit, for reasons unspecified in the paperwork.


I really hope he will use his influence to futher the lords kingdom!

Warrior4God
Mar 30th 2008, 08:07 PM
He's a preacher, Scripturally speaking... they're held to a higher standard than the average Joe. Our Messiah didn't teach hate all people of a particular race b/c a few from that race persecuted you at one point in time. He taught us to love our enemy, to turn the other cheek, to walk an extra mile when asked. There's no excuse for racial prejudice other than it being plain ol' hatred. Hatred is not what Yahushua taught. :(

I agree with you. It's not RIGHT what he has been saying. I never indicated otherwise. I'm just merely pointing out there is a human side to the situation. I'm just saying let's not verbally stone the guy to death. He obviously has a lot of bitterness from all the lousy experiences he has endured. Hopefully God will somehow open his spiritual eyes and heart to how wrong he has been and the guy will do a 180 turn around. We can all hope for that can't we? :confused

menJesus
Mar 30th 2008, 08:25 PM
The last two posts hold truth in them, but before you go throwing stones, think about this. How would you feel if people called you n***er all the time while growing up? Treated you like you were less than human because your skin is dark? I'm thinking you would hold some resentment in your heart as well. I'm not saying he is right for the things he has said, but to be honest it's understandable. You seem to have a lot of criticism and judgment for the man but not much sympathy or compassion for the things he must've gone through as a black man. :hmm:

I`m not throwing stones, or judging him - I am appalled that he has been in a pulpit and has been allowed to REMAIN in the pulpit, preaching what he has...

Apparently he paid no attention whatsoever to Martin Luther King - "we shall overcome".

And just for the sake of argument, how do you KNOW he grew up in the way you wrote?

Finally, for a christian, ESPECIALLY for a preacher man, I would think the term "fruit of the Spirit" would mean something to him... no matter WHAT color he is...

Jesus did NOT preach a gospel of hate... or racial division...

But yes, I am praying for him - it seems to my uneducated eyes that he has a terrible hardness in his heart that only God can soften...

pnewton
Mar 31st 2008, 12:51 AM
The last two posts hold truth in them, but before you go throwing stones, think about this. How would you feel if people called you n***er all the time while growing up? Not to say that all racism is dead, but I do not know that this is a realistic problem today. In any case, I have met or heard of few people more racist than Wright. If he can not control himself because of his past, he needs another profession.

menJesus
Mar 31st 2008, 09:34 AM
I may be wrong about this, and if I am, I apologize, but I think what he needs to do is get down on his knees and find out who he is in Jesus. The Bible specifically tells us to put the past behind... we are to work for today, and tomorrow, for the Lord, not to sit around and be a victim of the circumstances of our forefathers...

A LOT of the people in this country are the offspring of immigrants who came here from a horrible life in another country...

danield
Mar 31st 2008, 05:10 PM
I may be wrong about this, and if I am, I apologize, but I think what he needs to do is get down on his knees and find out who he is in Jesus. The Bible specifically tells us to put the past behind... we are to work for today, and tomorrow, for the Lord, not to sit around and be a victim of the circumstances of our forefathers...

A LOT of the people in this country are the offspring of immigrants who came here from a horrible life in another country...

I agree MenJesus! :pp

Seeker of truth
Mar 31st 2008, 05:24 PM
I may be wrong about this, and if I am, I apologize, but I think what he needs to do is get down on his knees and find out who he is in Jesus. The Bible specifically tells us to put the past behind... we are to work for today, and tomorrow, for the Lord, not to sit around and be a victim of the circumstances of our forefathers...

A LOT of the people in this country are the offspring of immigrants who came here from a horrible life in another country...

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

MrAnteater
Mar 31st 2008, 06:00 PM
The reverend preaches black liberation theology.

White people are clearly identified as the enemy and preaches hate against them.

Sounds like all the makings of a cult to me.

danield
Apr 29th 2008, 01:15 AM
What do you guys think of his response as of late?

WonderWoman4Jesus
Apr 29th 2008, 01:18 AM
I believe Rev. Wright is misguided and taking up the wrong banner. He should be trying to bring people of all races to Christ. I believe it is important to examine the past so we don't repeat the mistakes of it, but to make it the focus of the black community is bringing them down from their potential. His comments were hateful and not Christ-like in the least. I believe he should be responding in a more Christian manner by apologizing and trying to reform his sermons.

danield
Apr 29th 2008, 03:14 AM
I am trying to listen to everything he says to understand where he is coming from. He is in the spotlight right now because he is a pivotal role in our election. The press has him under a microscope, and he has the opportunity to shine for Christ, but I am thinking he is trying to shine for the black liberation theology with Christ in the back ground. He sprinkles conflict in his speeches, but I guess I should not criticize him because he is standing up and preaching even if it is not all entirely correct. I guess what I am saying is that I should not look at the speck in my brothers eye when I have a log in my own. However, I asked these questions to see what you guys felt about the matter because your opinion is normally correct!

Revinius
Apr 29th 2008, 05:56 AM
I guess I should not criticize him because he is standing up and preaching even if it is not all entirely correct.

If he is in a leadership position within the Body of Christ, then it becomes the business of the Church at large. We are not being hypocritical in pointing out flawed doctrine but loving in our rebuke. I dont want to see this guy or any under him go to Hell and his false teachings fill me with rightious anger the like of Nehemiah and Christ.

Athanasius
Apr 30th 2008, 01:52 AM
I want to know why I have so much trouble speaking in front of people, and yet charlatans like this do it no problem ;\

Revinius
Apr 30th 2008, 05:28 AM
I want to know why I have so much trouble speaking in front of people, and yet charlatans like this do it no problem ;\

Heh its missuse of Gods gift, just like the Apostle Paul did - used his charisma to have Christians killed then God turned it to Him.

baxpack7
Apr 30th 2008, 09:11 PM
There was a story in the Miami Herald that Obama was severing ties with Mr. Wright and will no longer be consulting him in any capacity. Interesting, huh?

Clifton
Apr 30th 2008, 10:26 PM
There was a story in the Miami Herald that Obama was severing ties with Mr. Wright and will no longer be consulting him in any capacity. Interesting, huh?

Obama made his public conference speech yesterday of how he was angered and saddened by Wright's public comments over the weekend, and called it a spectacle, divisive, and destructive, and that his relationship with Wright has changed now.

Blessings.

Fenris
May 1st 2008, 10:22 AM
How was the reverend's comments this weekend different from the stuff he's been saying at the pulpit over the last 20 years?

Clifton
May 1st 2008, 12:59 PM
How was the reverend's comments this weekend different from the stuff he's been saying at the pulpit over the last 20 years?

As The Fox News Channel expresses, we heard nothing different than we heard of out of the so-called "out of context snippets" in the past several weeks, but Wright simply confirmed them and upheld his position(s) and rhetoric. Wright got his 15+ minutes of fame and I guess we should not be surprised if we hear from him again since Obama has tossed him under the rug.

I heard one pastor that knew Wright says that is Wright as he has been all along.

As for the "out of context" claim, IMO, the kind of rhetoric I heard does not belong in any "context" of a "sermon" (dare I call it that).

Blessings.

Revinius
May 1st 2008, 01:40 PM
How was the reverend's comments this weekend different from the stuff he's been saying at the pulpit over the last 20 years?

Its just politics mate. He equals bad press for Obama, thus Obama seperates himself from the pastor.

Fenris
May 2nd 2008, 12:27 PM
We're Not in Philly Anymore
Jeremiah Wright is now disowned, and Barack Obama is forever discredited.

By Charles Krauthammer


“I can no more disown him (Jeremiah Wright) than I can disown my white grandmother.”
— Barack Obama, Philadelphia, March 18

Guess it’s time to disown Granny, if Obama’s famous Philadelphia “race” speech is to be believed. Of course, the speech was not just believed. It was hailed, celebrated, canonized as the greatest pronouncement on race in America since Lincoln at Cooper Union. A New York Times columnist said it “should be required reading in classrooms across the country.” College seniors and first-graders, suggested the excitable Chris Matthews.

Apparently there’s been a curriculum change. On Tuesday, the good senator begged to extend and revise his previous remarks on race. Moral equivalence between Grandma and Wright is now, as the Nixon administration used to say, inoperative. Poor Geraldine Ferraro, thrice lashed by Obama in Philadelphia as the white equivalent of Wright’s raving racism, is now off the hook.

These equivalences having been revealed as the cheap rhetorical tricks they always were, Obama has now decided that the man he simply could not banish because he had become part of Obama himself is, mirabile dictu, surgically excised.

At a news conference in North Carolina, Obama explained why he finally decided to do the deed. Apparently, Wright’s latest comments — Obama cited three in particular — were so shockingly “divisive and destructive” that he had to renounce the man, not just the words.

What were Obama’s three citations? Wright’s claim that AIDS was invented by the U.S. government to commit genocide. His praise of Louis Farrakhan as a great man. And his blaming 9/11 on American “terrorism.”

But these comments are not new. These were precisely the outrages that prompted the initial furor when the Wright tapes emerged seven weeks ago. Obama decided to cut off Wright not because Wright’s words or character or views had suddenly changed. The only thing that changed was the venue in which Wright chose to display them — live on national TV at the National Press Club. That unfortunate choice destroyed Obama’s Philadelphia pretense that this “endless loop” of sermon excerpts being shown on “television sets and YouTube” had been taken out of context.

Obama’s Philadelphia oration was an exercise in contextualization. In one particularly egregious play on white guilt, Obama had the audacity to suggest that whites should be ashamed they were ever surprised by Wright’s remarks: “The fact that so many people are surprised to hear that anger in some of Reverend Wright’s sermons simply reminds us of the old truism that the most segregated hour of American life occurs on Sunday morning.”



That was then. On Tuesday, Obama declared that he himself was surprised at Wright’s outrages. But hadn’t Obama told us that surprise about Wright is a result of white ignorance of black churches brought on by America’s history of segregated services? How then to explain Obama’s own presumed ignorance? Surely he too was not sitting in those segregated white churches on those fateful Sundays when he conveniently missed all of Wright’s racist rants.

Obama’s turning surprise about Wright into something to be counted against whites — one of the more clever devices in that shameful, brilliantly executed, 5,000-word intellectual fraud in Philadelphia — now stands discredited by Obama’s own admission of surprise. But Obama’s liberal acolytes are not daunted. They were taken in by the first great statement on race: the Annunciation, the Chosen One comes to heal us in Philly. They now are taken in by the second: the Renunciation.

Obama’s newest attempt to save himself after Wright’s latest poisonous performance is now declared the new final word on the subject. Therefore, any future ads linking Obama and Wright are preemptively declared out of bounds, illegitimate, indeed “race-baiting” (New York Times editorial, April 30).

On what grounds? This 20-year association with Wright calls into question everything about Obama: his truthfulness in his serially adjusted stories of what he knew and when he knew it; his judgment in choosing as his mentor, pastor, and great friend a man he just now realizes is a purveyor of racial hatred; and the central premise of his campaign, that he is the bringer of a “new politics,” rising above the old Washington ways of expediency. It’s hard to think of an act more blatantly expedient than renouncing Wright when his show, once done from the press club instead of the pulpit, could no longer be “contextualized” as something whites could not understand and only Obama could explain in all its complexity.

Turns out it was not that complex after all. Everyone understands it now. Even Obama.