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lwfc
Mar 20th 2008, 11:24 PM
The main reason I have never been a Christian is because I am gay..

I recognise that the Bible clearly says it is wrong, but I have generally always just accepted that it is who I am and I can't change it. I don't believe that I chose to be this way, but I also don't believe that anyone is born gay. But I have always really wished that I was straight because it would be much easier, and if I were to become a Christian then I couldn't be gay anyway right? But how could I possibly "make" myself straight? I didn't choose to be gay, so how could I choose to be straight? I don't want to lie to myself about how I feel, and I can't help the fact that I have feelings for girls and not for guys (though, I have only actually ever had one male friend in my whole life).

It doesn't help that for the past year and a half I have had a massive crush on a good friend of mine who is a Christian, and it makes me worry that maybe the only reason I've thought about becoming a Christian and started thinking I believe in God, etc, is because of her...which would clearly not be a good reason to do so. The attraction I have to her is most of the time not sexual though, I just want to be with her all the time and she's always on my mind...I'm always happy when I'm talking to her and then I get depressed as soon as she's not around. I've toyed with the idea of telling her, but I don't think it would be a good idea as I don't want to mess up our friendship.

I've always wished I was straight, way before I started thinking about religion and believed that there was nothing wrong with being gay, because I just wanted to have a "normal" life, get married and have kids etc. But I don't want to lie to myself and deny who I really have feelings for. I really wish I could have feelings for a guy but it just doesn't seem that likely to me. I don't really know what to do about it all...:giveup:

renthead188
Mar 21st 2008, 03:12 AM
The main reason I have never been a Christian is because I am gay..

I recognise that the Bible clearly says it is wrong, but I have generally always just accepted that it is who I am and I can't change it. I don't believe that I chose to be this way, but I also don't believe that anyone is born gay. But I have always really wished that I was straight because it would be much easier, and if I were to become a Christian then I couldn't be gay anyway right? But how could I possibly "make" myself straight? I didn't choose to be gay, so how could I choose to be straight? I don't want to lie to myself about how I feel, and I can't help the fact that I have feelings for girls and not for guys (though, I have only actually ever had one male friend in my whole life).

It doesn't help that for the past year and a half I have had a massive crush on a good friend of mine who is a Christian, and it makes me worry that maybe the only reason I've thought about becoming a Christian and started thinking I believe in God, etc, is because of her...which would clearly not be a good reason to do so. The attraction I have to her is most of the time not sexual though, I just want to be with her all the time and she's always on my mind...I'm always happy when I'm talking to her and then I get depressed as soon as she's not around. I've toyed with the idea of telling her, but I don't think it would be a good idea as I don't want to mess up our friendship.

I've always wished I was straight, way before I started thinking about religion and believed that there was nothing wrong with being gay, because I just wanted to have a "normal" life, get married and have kids etc. But I don't want to lie to myself and deny who I really have feelings for. I really wish I could have feelings for a guy but it just doesn't seem that likely to me. I don't really know what to do about it all...:giveup:

You're an honest girl and that's pretty cool. I like that about you.

I'm Chris, I'm twenty years old and I live in New York. I wanted to say something about your post... you're confused about your sexuality. As far as you know... you feel attracted to the same sex, but you say that you have had very little contact with males in your life. Healthy relationships with men is where your sexuality is naturally pointed, if you have never had any, you wouldn't KNOW if you were really attracted to men or not.

Is it possible that you have been attracted to girls because (for some reason) the men in your life just weren't desirable?

It's good that you feel some uneasiness about this situation, I encourage you to seek answers regarding your sexuality.

You have also said that you were interested in exploring Christianity. That is wonderful and I am very happy to hear this. The best place to start, perhaps, would be The Bible. The first part is the story of God creating us, man choosing to turn away from God and God promising us (humanity) a chance to turn back to Him. The second part is the story of the fulfillment of the promise.

This would be the best place to start to find answers. I would suggest reading The Gospel of Mark and Paul's Letter to the Romans in the New Testament. I urge you though, before you do this, ask God to reveal Himself to you. You can speak it or think it or whatever... but take a minute or two (literally) before you read it and Ask God to show you the truth.

I will pray for you Laura.

Christopher

mjl
Mar 21st 2008, 03:22 AM
lwfc,

Do you believe that a homosexual lifesyle is a sin in the eyes of God? I will tell you what I believe. As you said in your post, the Bible does say clearly that homosexuality is wrong, a sin. I do not take the Bible as just a book that says something is wrong or right, good or bad. There are probably books that say homosexuality is perfectly fine. What makes it wrong is the fact that God, in His Holiness and perfection, says it's wrong; it goes against His own being/character. Because He is holy and perfect, His word, the Bible, is truth. I will not say that homosexuality is a greater sin than any other sin, it is not. The point is that we must recongize our own sinfulness(breaking God's law, things contrary to His truths). Any sin, one or many, seperates us from God. God does not want us to be seperated from Him, so He provides us, through Jesus' death on the cross, a way to be united to Him. I'm going to say some things that may sound harsh, but I say them out of love. Salvation is a life or death choice. We cannot live one way and die another. God says "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish"( Luke 13:3). You can't do it in your own strength. "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed"(John 8:36)

lwfc, Christ can reach you where you are. ref.Hebrews 7:25



mjl

VerticalReality
Mar 21st 2008, 03:27 AM
The main reason I have never been a Christian is because I am gay..

I recognise that the Bible clearly says it is wrong, but I have generally always just accepted that it is who I am and I can't change it. I don't believe that I chose to be this way, but I also don't believe that anyone is born gay. But I have always really wished that I was straight because it would be much easier, and if I were to become a Christian then I couldn't be gay anyway right? But how could I possibly "make" myself straight? I didn't choose to be gay, so how could I choose to be straight? I don't want to lie to myself about how I feel, and I can't help the fact that I have feelings for girls and not for guys (though, I have only actually ever had one male friend in my whole life).

It doesn't help that for the past year and a half I have had a massive crush on a good friend of mine who is a Christian, and it makes me worry that maybe the only reason I've thought about becoming a Christian and started thinking I believe in God, etc, is because of her...which would clearly not be a good reason to do so. The attraction I have to her is most of the time not sexual though, I just want to be with her all the time and she's always on my mind...I'm always happy when I'm talking to her and then I get depressed as soon as she's not around. I've toyed with the idea of telling her, but I don't think it would be a good idea as I don't want to mess up our friendship.

I've always wished I was straight, way before I started thinking about religion and believed that there was nothing wrong with being gay, because I just wanted to have a "normal" life, get married and have kids etc. But I don't want to lie to myself and deny who I really have feelings for. I really wish I could have feelings for a guy but it just doesn't seem that likely to me. I don't really know what to do about it all...:giveup:

Let me ask you a question, and please . . . give me an honest answer.

Do you think guys are ugly? I know that sounds like a strange question, but seriously . . . are there no men that you believe are good looking?

I will wait for your response before I go further.

moonglow
Mar 21st 2008, 03:36 AM
The main reason I have never been a Christian is because I am gay..

I recognise that the Bible clearly says it is wrong, but I have generally always just accepted that it is who I am and I can't change it. I don't believe that I chose to be this way, but I also don't believe that anyone is born gay. But I have always really wished that I was straight because it would be much easier, and if I were to become a Christian then I couldn't be gay anyway right? But how could I possibly "make" myself straight? I didn't choose to be gay, so how could I choose to be straight? I don't want to lie to myself about how I feel, and I can't help the fact that I have feelings for girls and not for guys (though, I have only actually ever had one male friend in my whole life).

It doesn't help that for the past year and a half I have had a massive crush on a good friend of mine who is a Christian, and it makes me worry that maybe the only reason I've thought about becoming a Christian and started thinking I believe in God, etc, is because of her...which would clearly not be a good reason to do so. The attraction I have to her is most of the time not sexual though, I just want to be with her all the time and she's always on my mind...I'm always happy when I'm talking to her and then I get depressed as soon as she's not around. I've toyed with the idea of telling her, but I don't think it would be a good idea as I don't want to mess up our friendship.

I've always wished I was straight, way before I started thinking about religion and believed that there was nothing wrong with being gay, because I just wanted to have a "normal" life, get married and have kids etc. But I don't want to lie to myself and deny who I really have feelings for. I really wish I could have feelings for a guy but it just doesn't seem that likely to me. I don't really know what to do about it all...:giveup:

Hi and welcome to the board!

First I would like to ask you where do you live that you aren't ever around guys? That seems kind of odd. Or do you mean you just never became friends with a guy except for one? I didn't quite understand that part.

The thing is with becoming a Christian..you don't change yourself...God changes you. Paul (from the bible) dealt with alot of people in his churches that had all sorts of different sexual activities going on, including homosexuals before they were saved. These people lived by the Romans who were pagans and it was common for them to indulge it any and all sorts of sexual stuff. Once they were truly saved, this type of behavior stopped, the desire stopped...something they could not do on their own.

1 Corinthians 6
11 There was a time when some of you were just like that, but now your sins have been washed away, and you have been set apart for God. You have been made right with God because of what the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God have done for you.


Far too many people won't even consider coming to God because they have this idea they can't change...well many times they can't! Not on their own. Now I do know of one gay lady that is Christian that while those feelings have not felt her of still being gay, she does not engage in any type of homosexual activity so she doesn't sin against God. I am straight, I don't engage in any type of heterosexuality so I don't sin against God (I am not married). While I am still straight and she is still gay, neither of us sin in this area as the Lord has given us self control. The thing I notice about most gay people is they think they HAVE to be in a sexual relationship. Why is that? Why can't they just have relationships without the sexual part? I mean I have friends, both male and female and I don't feel like I HAVE to have sex with the men. I realize the very idea of living this way sound pretty horrible to most...but with the Holy Spirit its really no big deal. I have a very happy and fulfilling life.

Just something to think about.

God bless

Gypsy
Mar 21st 2008, 11:38 AM
Well Hi and welcome,
I think that it’s awesome that you're feeling a spiritual need, no matter what has led you there and I’m so glad that you’ve come here with your questions. Know this:



For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.The world! All of us! Even bank robbers and axe murderers, because in the end we are all sinners and none of us deserve His love. He does anyway. So much that He became man to die Himself for our sins - that's just how He rolls!

Whosoever believeth in him – not whosoever believeth in him and is straight or white or has the biggest bible and the shiniest shoes on Sunday. Whosoever.

To my knowledge, there is no scripture which describes Jesus specifically condemning people for being gay, only immoral acts. So in my mind the fact that you are attracted to other members of the same sex is no more sinful then me being attracted to members of the opposite sex. It’s what we do with those feelings which potentially becomes sinful and that’s the same whether those sins manifest themselves from hetero or homo sexual attraction. Attraction is not sinful, but lust is sinful, sex outside of marriage is sinful and it is not His will that people of the same gender marry.

I think like most of us were, when we were at the same point in our walk as you are, you might have your cart before your horse a little. You’re thinking “I can’t be a Christian because I am/have been sinful” when you should be thinking “I can’t stop my sinful behavior because I am not Christian.” Like others have said here; God makes the changes in your life all you have to do is let Him. Your focus right now should not be on I’m gay/I’m not gay it should be on finding Jesus (He’s right next to you by the way). Open your heart to Him and He will guide you.



it makes me worry that maybe the only reason I've thought about becoming a Christian and started thinking I believe in God, etc, is because of her...which would clearly not be a good reason to do so.
Honest, you can come to Him nekid and painted blue and He would still welcome you with open arms! He just digs it that you showed up!



The attraction I have to her is most of the time not sexual though
This I find curious. Have you considered that it is this woman’s relationship with Christ and the resultant effect in her life in which you are interested? Just wondering.

God Bless you and I hope you will keep coming back.

lwfc
Mar 21st 2008, 02:38 PM
I'm Chris, I'm twenty years old and I live in New York. I wanted to say something about your post... you're confused about your sexuality. As far as you know... you feel attracted to the same sex, but you say that you have had very little contact with males in your life. Healthy relationships with men is where your sexuality is naturally pointed, if you have never had any, you wouldn't KNOW if you were really attracted to men or not.

Is it possible that you have been attracted to girls because (for some reason) the men in your life just weren't desirable?
Yeah, I suppose that's possible. I mean, I don't know many guys that well at all and have just mostly been surrounded by girls so I suppose I could just be attracted to girls because I know them much better, and tend to feel uncomfortable around guys. I'd never really thought about it like that until I was talking about it with a friend of mine the other day, who pointed out that as I'm going to university in september I'll probably get to know more guys then and that would probably help me to work it out better..


This would be the best place to start to find answers. I would suggest reading The Gospel of Mark and Paul's Letter to the Romans in the New Testament. I urge you though, before you do this, ask God to reveal Himself to you. You can speak it or think it or whatever... but take a minute or two (literally) before you read it and Ask God to show you the truth.
Yeah, I already got some advice in another thread, and someone recommended that I start by reading Mark, so I read about half of it last night and I'll finish off reading the rest of it later..


Let me ask you a question, and please . . . give me an honest answer.

Do you think guys are ugly? I know that sounds like a strange question, but seriously . . . are there no men that you believe are good looking?

I will wait for your response before I go further.
No, I find some guys to be quite good looking, but I just feel uncomfortable around them. I don't generally find that I'm able to connect with them personally, and don't see how I can have a relationship with/be in love with a guy...but I have no problem with having those kinds of feelings towards girls.


First I would like to ask you where do you live that you aren't ever around guys? That seems kind of odd. Or do you mean you just never became friends with a guy except for one? I didn't quite understand that part.
Well I've been at all girls schools since I was 6 and I don't really do a whole lot outside of school, so I've never really made friends with guys. I did have one good male friend who was pretty much my best friend for a while, but we don't speak so much any more, because he asked me out and I turned him down and it got a little bit awkward.


Far too many people won't even consider coming to God because they have this idea they can't change...well many times they can't! Not on their own. Now I do know of one gay lady that is Christian that while those feelings have not felt her of still being gay, she does not engage in any type of homosexual activity so she doesn't sin against God. I am straight, I don't engage in any type of heterosexuality so I don't sin against God (I am not married). While I am still straight and she is still gay, neither of us sin in this area as the Lord has given us self control. The thing I notice about most gay people is they think they HAVE to be in a sexual relationship. Why is that? Why can't they just have relationships without the sexual part? I mean I have friends, both male and female and I don't feel like I HAVE to have sex with the men. I realize the very idea of living this way sound pretty horrible to most...but with the Holy Spirit its really no big deal. I have a very happy and fulfilling life.
I don't think you can say that about every gay person though..although there does seem to be a lot of promiscuity among gay people, which I don't like. I myself am definately not like that, I don't feel like I have to have sex with girls. I have had a sexual relationship with a girl, but it was about 2 and a half years ago now. In fact I've not even kissed a girl for about 2 years, so I am not sinning right now either then? I notice it with a lot of straight people I know though, some of my friends are always talking about sex with their boyfriends and personally I would want to wait a lot longer than they do anyway, whether it were with a girl or a boy...


To my knowledge, there is no scripture which describes Jesus specifically condemning people for being gay, only immoral acts. So in my mind the fact that you are attracted to other members of the same sex is no more sinful then me being attracted to members of the opposite sex. It’s what we do with those feelings which potentially becomes sinful and that’s the same whether those sins manifest themselves from hetero or homo sexual attraction. Attraction is not sinful, but lust is sinful, sex outside of marriage is sinful and it is not His will that people of the same gender marry.
Just out of curiosity, where is it in the Bible that it says sex out of marriage is a sin? And what is the difference between attraction and lust? Because surely you can't help having "lustful" feelings towards someone, but if you're not going to act on them anyway, why does it matter?


This I find curious. Have you considered that it is this woman’s relationship with Christ and the resultant effect in her life in which you are interested? Just wondering.
Yeah, I have and it could be. I mean I do find myself interested when she talks about religion, and she was probably the first person I considered talking to when I started to think about all of this stuff. But I don't know that it's only that, because while it's most of the time not a sexual attraction, it is at times..but mostly I just really like being around her. I dunno.

VerticalReality
Mar 21st 2008, 02:51 PM
No, I find some guys to be quite good looking, but I just feel uncomfortable around them. I don't generally find that I'm able to connect with them personally, and don't see how I can have a relationship with/be in love with a guy...but I have no problem with having those kinds of feelings towards girls.

So would you agree that your draw toward the same sex is not so much of a physical nature but of a formulated conclusion in your mind?

moonglow
Mar 21st 2008, 03:18 PM
Originally Posted by moonglow
Far too many people won't even consider coming to God because they have this idea they can't change...well many times they can't! Not on their own. Now I do know of one gay lady that is Christian that while those feelings have not felt her of still being gay, she does not engage in any type of homosexual activity so she doesn't sin against God. I am straight, I don't engage in any type of heterosexuality so I don't sin against God (I am not married). While I am still straight and she is still gay, neither of us sin in this area as the Lord has given us self control. The thing I notice about most gay people is they think they HAVE to be in a sexual relationship. Why is that? Why can't they just have relationships without the sexual part? I mean I have friends, both male and female and I don't feel like I HAVE to have sex with the men. I realize the very idea of living this way sound pretty horrible to most...but with the Holy Spirit its really no big deal. I have a very happy and fulfilling life.


I don't think you can say that about every gay person though..although there does seem to be a lot of promiscuity among gay people, which I don't like. I myself am definately not like that, I don't feel like I have to have sex with girls. I have had a sexual relationship with a girl, but it was about 2 and a half years ago now. In fact I've not even kissed a girl for about 2 years, so I am not sinning right now either then? I notice it with a lot of straight people I know though, some of my friends are always talking about sex with their boyfriends and personally I would want to wait a lot longer than they do anyway, whether it were with a girl or a boy...


Ok that explain alot. Sometimes I think parents go over board in trying to protect their children...by separating you from boys, probably to avoid early teenager sex and pregnancies, etc, its set you up for another situation I am sure they didn't intend! Of course you don't feel comfortable being around guys when you rarely are! Plus most teenagers and even young adults get uncomfortable around the opposite gender not because they aren't attracted to them but because of the fear of rejection.

One time I was watching a documentary on women in prison. Some had become involved in gay relationships while in prison though like one young lady said in it, I am not gay, I just needed someone to care about and someone to care about me but once I get out I don't plan on continuing in this lifestyle. Now she had been around guys and probably had some type of relationships with them...whether just friends or more. You haven't really even had that!

These women had no choice..they only had other women around them. In a way you have been in the same situation with school. Not really having the chance to be around other guys. In the teen years our bodies hormones bring up sexual feeling and attractions...if no one but other girls are around you, where is that going to be directed at? Them, of course. I really wish parents would not do this to their kids...it can create all sorts of problems. You might be gay and you might not be...its really hard to tell because you haven't been given the chance to really be around many guys.

Anyway every gay person I have ever encountered, even those that claim to be Christians seem to think they have to be in a sexual relationship...only a very few see it differently. Now I am NOT saying straights are any better! As you pointed out, there are plenty of straight people involved in sexual relationship. Far, far too many. I get frustrated with so many straight people that point fingers at the gay community when they are no better.

Anyway, no you aren't sinning in this area right now which is good. From our view point though (knowing the bible as we do) it says we are all sinners, we all fall short of God's glory. Meaning all of us have sinned. One sin separates us from God. This is why we need Jesus...He is like the bridge between us and God. Once we realize this, that He paid for our sins, and accept Him into our lives, we can ask the Lord to forgive us for our sins, and He wipes them away...He forgets about them. (God can't really forget anything, this is an expression in the bible) it simply means its over and done with and won't be held against you. Lets say for instance at age 15 you stole something..you were certainly old enough to know better. This is a sin you have to pay for yourself, unless you accept that Jesus paid for it for you. Ask for forgiveness and that debt is gone.

Hope that makes sense.

God bless

Gypsy
Mar 21st 2008, 05:33 PM
Hi again,

To my knowledge (and maybe some of the more experienced Christians will correct me if I am wrong) the bible never specifically mentions homosexual marriage at all. It does however consistently hold that homosexual activity is a sin;


9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,



26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.




22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
That marriage is an institution of God and meant to be between a man and a woman is made clear from Genesis.



21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs [a] and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

23 The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman,'
for she was taken out of man."

24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
and restated by Jesus:




4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Although, again in my view, the bible doesn’t specifically say that gay marriage is a sin, to approve of gay marriage would be to sanction behavior which the bible clearly states is sinful.

Lust and attraction; to me the difference is between that which is voluntary and that which is involuntary. Recognizing that another person is attractive to you is involuntary – if I’m at the market and turn the corner and see a pretty girl, I can’t say to myself “No, she’s not pretty” – she’s pretty – that’s not sinful, but now it becomes conscious and I begin to have the potential to sin. Do I continue to think about her, fanaticize about her, stare at her inappropriately, follow to the next isle to continue to look at her – sinful, because I’m choosing to do so and I know that it is against God’s will.

Not that I think it what you are doing, but let me just say up front because I’ve seen it a few times here when gay folks begin there walk – there simply are no scriptural loopholes wherein it is possible to be both actively gay and following His will. There simply isn’t. I’m sorry, because I know that would make it easier for you. But, what I can promise is that once you have open your heart to him, you will come to realize that it really doesn’t make that much difference – whether you’re gay, straight, seems so important now but the greatest pleasure you could ever derive from these things is nothing in comparison to the joy of knowing His love and far far less in comparison to the pleasure which awaits those who have accepted Jesus reward in heaven.

Gods Love.

aliveinchrist
Mar 21st 2008, 08:32 PM
Hi Laura! Welcome!

I only read through a few posts, because I got a few things i would like to say.

First, if you don't mind my asking, what was your home life like? Was your dad around a lot? Or do you not know him?

Next, Jesus can work WONDERS in us, if we let Him. Like someone else said, we can't change by our own power, but we change by the power of Christ in us.

Meaning, if you accept Jesus into your heart, and you pray continually, and ESPECIALLY whenever you start feeling desires or having thoughts about another woman, to lift you free of this sin, He will heal you. It may not be BAM, over night, but have patience and keep praying.

Again like someone else said, homosexuality is not any greater of a sin than swearing or adultry. But it IS still a sin, and one that you need to bring before Jesus, and lay it at His feet.

I don't believe either, that people are born homosexual. I DO believe that is a choice, whether consciously or even subconsciously. Some people may not even be AWARE that they chose that. And still others, might be raised that way, and some just might not know any better.

The reason I, personally, don't believe that people are born homosexual, is because if they were, EVERYBODY would be a homosexual. That's just my personal opinion, though.

The difference between attraction and lust? I believe, that attraction is simply appreciating someone for their looks, or their personality. Lust is a strong physical attraction/wanting someone for their body. Appreciating their looks is far different from WANTING their looks. Does that make sense? And it does matter. God said that if you even LOOK at someone with lust in your heart, you have sinned.

ServantofTruth
Mar 21st 2008, 08:49 PM
I really think the biblical christian position needs posting in a simple form. There are 3 positions a person can take on homsexuality....


1. A person is gay/ lesbian incined but does not act on it.

2. A person is gay/ lesbian inclined knows it is sinful by bible teaching and still acts in a gay way, has gay relationships. BUT like any sin continues to try to stop/ over come that sin.

3. A person is gay/ lesbian inclined states the bible is wrong and has relationships.


Positions 1 & 2 are OK as a christian. Obviously position 3 is wrong and not christian. We all sin and homosexuality is just another sin, though many try to elevate it above most others. Love should be shown at all times to all people, homsexuals no different.
However a word of warning. This is NOT saying go ahead and do this sin and casually say i'm trying and failing, i'll keep trying. A celebate life or to form a normal hetrosexual marriage is the ideal.

I hope this helps everyone reading this, the topic comes around so often, it's any easy one to reply to - if not an easy one for those involved obviously. God bless, Servant of Truth.

lwfc
Mar 21st 2008, 10:20 PM
So would you agree that your draw toward the same sex is not so much of a physical nature but of a formulated conclusion in your mind?
I dunno, not completely, because I find girls physically attractive as well.


Ok that explain alot. Sometimes I think parents go over board in trying to protect their children...by separating you from boys, probably to avoid early teenager sex and pregnancies, etc, its set you up for another situation I am sure they didn't intend! Of course you don't feel comfortable being around guys when you rarely are! Plus most teenagers and even young adults get uncomfortable around the opposite gender not because they aren't attracted to them but because of the fear of rejection.
Actually, I chose the school, not my parents, so I suppose that's not their fault. Well I may not have had so much choice in the first one, but I had a big say in what secondary school I went to. But I can see how it might have an effect, but at the same time that doesn't quite add up as I'm pretty sure I'm the only lesbian in a year of about 150 girls (well, only "out" one anyway).


Anyway, no you aren't sinning in this area right now which is good. From our view point though (knowing the bible as we do) it says we are all sinners, we all fall short of God's glory. Meaning all of us have sinned. One sin separates us from God. This is why we need Jesus...He is like the bridge between us and God. Once we realize this, that He paid for our sins, and accept Him into our lives, we can ask the Lord to forgive us for our sins, and He wipes them away...He forgets about them. (God can't really forget anything, this is an expression in the bible) it simply means its over and done with and won't be held against you. Lets say for instance at age 15 you stole something..you were certainly old enough to know better. This is a sin you have to pay for yourself, unless you accept that Jesus paid for it for you. Ask for forgiveness and that debt is gone.

Hope that makes sense.
Yeah, that makes sense. What if I were to do that, but then end up acting on feelings for girls sometime again? Would He still forgive me that time, if I were trying to not act on it? Wouldn't it just be really hypocritical of me> I'm not saying I'm going to do that..just wondering.


Lust and attraction; to me the difference is between that which is voluntary and that which is involuntary. Recognizing that another person is attractive to you is involuntary – if I’m at the market and turn the corner and see a pretty girl, I can’t say to myself “No, she’s not pretty” – she’s pretty – that’s not sinful, but now it becomes conscious and I begin to have the potential to sin. Do I continue to think about her, fanaticize about her, stare at her inappropriately, follow to the next isle to continue to look at her – sinful, because I’m choosing to do so and I know that it is against God’s will.
Hmm, I see what you're saying, but when I have sexual thoughts about a girl I don't really feel as if I chose to be thinking like that or that I can help it. If anything I don't want to be thinking about her like that because it just makes me upset but sometimes I get thoughts like that and can't seem to get rid of them?


First, if you don't mind my asking, what was your home life like? Was your dad around a lot? Or do you not know him?
My parents got divorced when I was 7 but I went to stay with him every other weekend until I was 13. I don't see him so often now, but that's more down to us both being too lazy/busy to call each other. But my step dad has lived with us for nearly 10 years now I think.


The difference between attraction and lust? I believe, that attraction is simply appreciating someone for their looks, or their personality. Lust is a strong physical attraction/wanting someone for their body. Appreciating their looks is far different from WANTING their looks. Does that make sense? And it does matter. God said that if you even LOOK at someone with lust in your heart, you have sinned.
But if it's something you do subconciously, without wanting to or meaning to, why is it a sin?


However a word of warning. This is NOT saying go ahead and do this sin and casually say i'm trying and failing, i'll keep trying. A celebate life or to form a normal hetrosexual marriage is the ideal.
I'm not sure I understand...as long as someone is honestly trying to not act on feelings for the same sex then it's not so bad? :confused

IWalkWithHim
Mar 21st 2008, 10:35 PM
I just wanted to say how proud I am of all of you and how you adress situations like this. I am in agreement with all of you regarding the help that you have given to this young lady. With friends that I have spoken with, homosexuality is one of the MOST difficult things to overcome. But Jesus delivers people from it as He does with so many things through the power of His love. :hug:

VerticalReality
Mar 22nd 2008, 02:45 AM
I dunno, not completely, because I find girls physically attractive as well.

I understand. However, I don't think you're seeing my point. I'm a guy. I think there are other guys who are good looking. It doesn't mean I'm practicing homosexuality to think people of the same sex are good looking. Any guy, if they are being totally honest with themselves, can and will say that they think there are other folks of the same sex who are physically good looking people. That doesn't make them someone who is practicing homosexuality though, correct? You see we have a concept in our society that says people are just homosexual and there is nothing they can do about. It's just the way they are. However, I don't believe this whatsoever. You see you are no different than anyone else when it comes to how you see other people physically. You can be honest with yourself and know that there are people of both the male and female sex that are good looking or physically attractive. However, this doesn't define homosexuality or mean that you are practicing homosexuality.

Homosexuality is a sexual relationship with a person of the same sexual origin. No duh . . . right? So, if it's not so much the physical part as can be evidenced by the truths above, what do you think it is?

I'll tell you what it is. You are currently allowing carnal desire and worldly lust to control your mind. This is what the Word of God says about unbelievers who are not born again by the Spirit of God . . .


Ephesians 4:17-24
This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But you have not so learned Christ, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

I don't say these things to offend you, so please don't misunderstand the intent. I'm simply informing you about why you currently feel as if you can't help but desire the same sex. You see desire is the problem here. You are currently just obeying the desire that is filling your carnal mind. You have a mind that is not renewed to the things of God. Another thing I will tell you, and you may not understand this whatsoever, but you are currently under the control of spiritual forces . . .



Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.


Whether you realize it or not there are unseen spiritual forces all around that have influence on your daily life. These spiritual forces tempt you and lead you away from the things of God.



Ephesians 2:1-3
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.


You are currently being controlled by the spirit of this world who is contrary to all things that are of God. The spirit of this world will continue to lead you this way until you are no longer under his power. The only way not to be under this power is to be a child of God born again by His Spirit. Whether you understand this or not you are currently losing a spiritual battle over your mind. You are being controlled and manipulated by carnal desires of the flesh and unclean wickedness of this world. The only way for you to overcome this is to submit yourself to God and hand over all control to Him. You must surrender yourself in humility and acknowledge that you are a sinner in need of divine regeneration of God's Holy Spirit. The only way you can receive this is by believing on and accepting by faith the sacrifice given you by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is by God's grace that you can be saved, and only by faith in Jesus can you receive salvation. And I'm not just talking about salvation as far as heaven is concerned. I'm talking about salvation right now in your daily life. You see without this salvation and faith in the Son of God Jesus Christ you will never be able to overcome the carnal desires filling your mind right now. You will never be free from the bondage and chains of oppression brought on by this world. You will deal with heartache, depression, anxiety and every other ungodly thing that would afflict your soul. That's what walking according to the spirit of this world will do for you.

However, Jesus Christ has declared that through Him you shall be free. Through Him you have an opportunity to lay aside the baggage of this world and step into a relationship that no earthly relationship could ever equal. Your joy, your peace and your victory hinge on who you choose to serve. You can either serve the god of this world and reap destruction, or you can serve the Living God and reap blessing. You can bring your own death and demise through following the spirit of this world, or you can have life and life more abundantly by following the One who conquered every spiritual adversary that you will ever face. All you have to do is believe.



Joshua 24:15
And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”



Who are you going to serve, lwfc?

Revinius
Mar 22nd 2008, 05:42 AM
Feelings can make you think something may be right when in reality it may be completely wrong. If we, humanity, are governed only by how we feel towards things there would be complete anarchy with chaos and death everywhere. People would be reduced to be little explosive sovereign entities that could 'feel' anything at any moment and listen not to reason but to the randomness of what could essentially be hormones.

For anything to be wrong or right it has to have some solid measure, some benchmark, of what is wrong and right. Society isnt reliable at that, society changes almost daily these days on what it thinks is right/wrong. Besides, what is society but humans choosing other humans how they should live. No, society is not a measure of anything but rather a collection of attitudes that are as multi-coloured and any rainbow.

Without God there can be no right or wrong.

ServantofTruth
Mar 22nd 2008, 08:00 AM
I'm not sure I understand...as long as someone is honestly trying to not act on feelings for the same sex then it's not so bad? :confused

That is 100% correct. Take many examples. Bad language, we all try to never use it, but we continue to slip occasionally. Being kind to people, in posting on a web site for example. We try, really try, then our ego/ pride is hurt and we react badly.
Don't let anyone blow this one issue up in your mind and say it is any bigger than another sin. It is not. Don't let the devil and his followers rob you of salvation through this.

I'm originally from Greater London by the way! Petts Wood ( between Orpington and Bromley ). My sister lives in Belverdere. I'm now in St Leonards near Hastings / Bexhill on the South coast. Hope to link up again soon. Servant of Truth.

aliveinchrist
Mar 22nd 2008, 02:22 PM
as I've stated before, lwfc, nobody is saying homosexuality is a greater sin than others. It isn't.

Revinius
Mar 22nd 2008, 03:48 PM
Right, sin is sin whether its driving above the speed limit or even murdering someone.

Tanya~
Mar 22nd 2008, 04:58 PM
The Scripture does teach that those who practice homosexuality (among other things) will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. It isn't the worst sin of all, and it isn't in a category by itself. It is among other particularly heinous sins.


1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV

When we come to the Lord, we repent and turn to God. That means we turn from these sorts of things and pursue a different way of life. A person cannot continue in this kind of lifestyle and think they can "add God" in such a way that they will be able to go to heaven.

When you are sick of the sin because of all the stuff that goes along with it, maybe then you will be ready to repent and turn to God. Then He will cleanse you -- wash you, sanctify you, justify you, and make you fit for His kingdom.

RoadWarrior
Mar 22nd 2008, 08:12 PM
Hi lwfc,

Others have given you scripture and some discussion has happened regarding your relationship with your father. I have not, however, heard any mention of your mother, and your relationship with her.

I have a friend who worked in the psychological field. She was once active in a female/female relationship, but later came out of it and devoted her life to Christ. Something she told me about it, is that girls who seek those relationships (or are drawn in to them) do so because what was missing in their young life was a healthy mother/daughter relationship.

If that is the case with you, the draw to the other girl is more about emotional intimacy than it is about physical intimacy. Satan tends to use our needs and turn them to do wrong things.

We all have a need to be loved and cared for. Having your parents divorce when you were so young had to be traumatic for you. It must have left you feeling lonely and deprived of the parenting you needed.

lwfc
Mar 22nd 2008, 10:33 PM
Eep, there's so many long posts to reply to now and I'm getting a bit confused!

I understand what most of you are saying, that by accepting Jesus I can get his help and he can stop me from the feelings I have etc...but the thing is while I'm starting to really think I believe in Him, I don't seem to be able to work out for sure what I believe yet. I know it's all a matter of faith but I don't really know how to find it. And how would I be able to accept Him and get him to help me with this before I knew that? There I times when I really feel like I believe in Him, like when I've been reading the Bible or trying to pray and stuff, but then there's other times when I just start telling myself I'm being ridiculous.


I don't say these things to offend you, so please don't misunderstand the intent. I'm simply informing you about why you currently feel as if you can't help but desire the same sex. You see desire is the problem here. You are currently just obeying the desire that is filling your carnal mind. You have a mind that is not renewed to the things of God. Another thing I will tell you, and you may not understand this whatsoever, but you are currently under the control of spiritual forces . . .
So basically satan is controlling my mind to make me think that I want to be with girls, and I can't stop him controlling me unless I accept God?


Who are you going to serve, lwfc?
See that question makes it sounds really easy. Obviously, from what you have said, I would choose God but I dunno...it just doesn't seem so easy in my head. Something is stopping me from it. I'd like to but then I just don't know if I really believe in it or not.. obviously nobody can prove it to me and that part is just up to me though, but I just find it a little difficult. I would like to believe, and accept Him, but I think maybe the fact that my opinion has changed so quickly from being a convinced atheist not so long ago to how I feel now, it just feels like too quick of a change?


Hi lwfc,

Others have given you scripture and some discussion has happened regarding your relationship with your father. I have not, however, heard any mention of your mother, and your relationship with her.

I have a friend who worked in the psychological field. She was once active in a female/female relationship, but later came out of it and devoted her life to Christ. Something she told me about it, is that girls who seek those relationships (or are drawn in to them) do so because what was missing in their young life was a healthy mother/daughter relationship.

If that is the case with you, the draw to the other girl is more about emotional intimacy than it is about physical intimacy. Satan tends to use our needs and turn them to do wrong things.

We all have a need to be loved and cared for. Having your parents divorce when you were so young had to be traumatic for you. It must have left you feeling lonely and deprived of the parenting you needed.
Nah that's not really the case for me. My mum and I are really close, I mean we disagree other things sometimes but who doesn't? Most of the time she's practically one of my best friends. I don't think my parents being divorced has made me deprived of good parenting though, I probably actually say my dad more often after they got divorced because I started going to stay with him every other weekend, whereas before he'd leave for work before I got up, get home after I'd gone to bed, and often go out on weekends. And my step dad moved in with us not long afterwards anyway.

I do understand what you say about emotional intimacy though. I've never really had a proper best friend, like one that I can tell anything to and be really close to, and sometimes I think maybe when I like a girl, that that is really all I want.


I'm originally from Greater London by the way! Petts Wood ( between Orpington and Bromley ). My sister lives in Belverdere. I'm now in St Leonards near Hastings / Bexhill on the South coast. Hope to link up again soon. Servant of Truth.
I don't know where any of those places are! :lol: Are they in the south of London? I live in north-west London, right on the outskirts.

RoadWarrior
Mar 22nd 2008, 11:03 PM
...
Nah that's not really the case for me. My mum and I are really close, I mean we disagree other things sometimes but who doesn't? Most of the time she's practically one of my best friends. I don't think my parents being divorced has made me deprived of good parenting though, I probably actually say my dad more often after they got divorced because I started going to stay with him every other weekend, whereas before he'd leave for work before I got up, get home after I'd gone to bed, and often go out on weekends. And my step dad moved in with us not long afterwards anyway.

I do understand what you say about emotional intimacy though. I've never really had a proper best friend, like one that I can tell anything to and be really close to, and sometimes I think maybe when I like a girl, that that is really all I want.

Sorry if we overwhelmed you. We all have a different approach to the issue, and just want to help.

Maybe really it is about having a proper best friend. Maybe the rest of it is just somehow you got confused about what it is to be and have friends.

It is healthy and good to have friends who are just friends, both male and female.

I'm glad to hear that you have good relationships with both your parents. When you feel comfortable talking to your mum about everything, then that includes this kind of problem as well. Have you ever discussed these feelings that you have, with her?

lwfc
Mar 22nd 2008, 11:10 PM
Sorry if we overwhelmed you. We all have a different approach to the issue, and just want to help.

Maybe really it is about having a proper best friend. Maybe the rest of it is just somehow you got confused about what it is to be and have friends.

It is healthy and good to have friends who are just friends, both male and female.

I'm glad to hear that you have good relationships with both your parents. When you feel comfortable talking to your mum about everything, then that includes this kind of problem as well. Have you ever discussed these feelings that you have, with her?
Nah I didn't mean you overwhlemed me and that it was bad, just that there was so much that I didn't know where to start with writing a response to it. I really appreciate all of the help people have given me in the thread, but I don't know exactly what to say in reply to all of it that's all.

It could be, I suppose. Though I have managed to get much closer friends in the past year and a half or so.

Well, my relationship with my dad is not quite so brilliant nowadays but it's ok. I did try to "come out" to my mum about three years ago, but she didn't seem to want to believe me at first. I think she kind of accepted it later on, but it wasn't really mentioned so much. So no, I suppose I'm not comfortable talking to her about abolutely everything..

RoadWarrior
Mar 22nd 2008, 11:37 PM
... Though I have managed to get much closer friends in the past year and a half or so.

Well, my relationship with my dad is not quite so brilliant nowadays but it's ok. I did try to "come out" to my mum about three years ago, but she didn't seem to want to believe me at first. I think she kind of accepted it later on, but it wasn't really mentioned so much. So no, I suppose I'm not comfortable talking to her about abolutely everything..

Yes, I think that would be a really hard thing for a mum to hear. We all want our children to have happy lives, and it's hard for us to see the homosexual lifestyle as being happy - it goes so completely against our social standards, even for non-Christians.

In the teen years, it is normal to think about romance, love, and future possibilities. A lot of what goes through your mind at this stage can have to do with what kind of exposures you have had. What did you read, watch on telly, or hear about through other people who are close to you. But what you think the world is like, and what your own life will be like, can be different. You have a lot more control over your own life than you realize. The choices you make now will put you on one pathway or another.

It might be safer to postpone making big decisions about your whole life, in favor of making small ones that affect you today. No matter what you ultimately do with your romantic life, acting out sexual behavior in teen years is not safe.

It is good that you are making more friends. You need to develop a good balance in your life right now, with studies, friends, helping your mum around the house, - just general learning how to be a responsible person in society. Give yourself some time before you stick a BIG LABEL on yourself. What I'm trying to say is, don't put yourself into a homosexual box and lock yourself in. Focus your attention outward, onto your favorite studies, your hobbies, your interests in life.

If you could attend a church, it might be helpful. It would broaden your horizons.

ServantofTruth
Mar 23rd 2008, 01:21 PM
1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV

I believe no sinner can enter the kingdom of heaven. We are all sinners. I do a few of the things in these verses, but firmly believe i belong to Christ Jesus and am headed for the kingdom of God.
Surely the point is we all sin all day every day, others parts of Pauls letters say as such. But we are washed clean by our Lord and it is this spiritual cleansing that makes the impossible...possible. Sorry to post the obvious, i know we all know this.
I in no way want anyone to commit any sin, including homosexuality, but the verses above include me and homosexuals together. I doubt anyone reading this post is not on that list at least once, if not many times.
I am a strong fighter against homosexuality, especially within Christian groups.

Gypsy
Mar 23rd 2008, 03:57 PM
Hmm, I see what you're saying, but when I have sexual thoughts about a girl I don't really feel as if I chose to be thinking like that or that I can help it. If anything I don't want to be thinking about her like that because it just makes me upset but sometimes I get thoughts like that and can't seem to get rid of them?Well that's kind of the point. Left to our own devices we will all choose to sin - it's how we're wired - we're born into it. But just because we can't help but choose to sin (like an alcoholic can't help but to drink), doesn't mean that we don't still have the choice. Is why we need Jesus. There is no temptation too great that He can not give you the strength to overcome. Sins like lust, that don't manifest themselves outside of ourselves are tough, because it's so easy to convince yourself that if you're not hurting anyone else, then they are not as bad as those which affect others directly - oh I'll just think about this girls butt for a few mins or I'll just harbor this little resentment or I'll just let myself be a little pridefully. What's the big deal? It's not hurting anyone. It's a trick of the dark one and a dangerous trap at that. The truth is that we don't need for God to justify His will to us, only to try to understand what His will for us is and just as a six year old, who can't understand why he can't have cookies for supper, needs to trust that his parents will is for his own good, so must we with God. No kidding I need to read this everyday:



5Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.


As others have said here; sin is not scalable - it is all equally ugly to God. I heard a sermon once about an armature pilot who just got his flying license and was flying for the first time alone. In his classes he was told not to fly into clouds as his plane was not designed for it. At first he stayed far away from the clouds and then closer and closer, soon he tried to just clip the clouds with the wings of the plane, then brush of the sides or top of them. Then just through the corners of the clouds. Soon, he found himself in the middle of a large cloud, completely disoriented, spinning out of control, not knowing which way is up or down.

Sin is like that too. All sin is dangerous, because it leads us away from the Father, who is the only pure source of love. I pray that you will come to know that love as we do.

May God Bless you lwfc. I'm so glad you are here.

lwfc
Mar 23rd 2008, 10:48 PM
Yes, I think that would be a really hard thing for a mum to hear. We all want our children to have happy lives, and it's hard for us to see the homosexual lifestyle as being happy - it goes so completely against our social standards, even for non-Christians.
Yep, I suppose so. I was only 15 when I told her this as well so she told me that I was probably too young to know, which at the time upset me a bit I suppose.


It is good that you are making more friends. You need to develop a good balance in your life right now, with studies, friends, helping your mum around the house, - just general learning how to be a responsible person in society. Give yourself some time before you stick a BIG LABEL on yourself. What I'm trying to say is, don't put yourself into a homosexual box and lock yourself in. Focus your attention outward, onto your favorite studies, your hobbies, your interests in life.
Hmm, to be honest I think that that label is already on me quite a bit. Most people already know I'm gay, as I've been "out" to my friends since I was about 13, and have had a relationship with a girl in the year below me that most people knew about. I guess it will be difficult to get rid of that label, because I can't exactly go around to everyone I know and say "by the way, I'm not gay anymore". I also remember a few years ago a friend of mine introduced me to a boy that I did actually think was quite good looking by saying "this is Laura, she's a lesbian" which was quite unhelpful and it's not just me labelling myself. I don't really label myself like that so much anymore, but I suppose I still have the label there anyway.


If you could attend a church, it might be helpful. It would broaden your horizons.
I did contact a church a while back to ask them for some help, but as I mentioned in my other thread, I haven't been back since. I feel weird about just turning up there, I wouldn't know what to do really. I suppose I could email them again and tell them I want to attend a service. But my parents would probably want to know what I'm doing going out so early on a sunday morning :lol: as I haven't discussed this all with my mum yet..


Well that's kind of the point. Left to our own devices we will all choose to sin - it's how we're wired - we're born into it. But just because we can't help but choose to sin (like an alcoholic can't help but to drink), doesn't mean that we don't still have the choice. Is why we need Jesus. There is no temptation too great that He can not give you the strength to overcome. Sins like lust, that don't manifest themselves outside of ourselves are tough, because it's so easy to convince yourself that if you're not hurting anyone else, then they are not as bad as those which affect others directly - oh I'll just think about this girls butt for a few mins or I'll just harbor this little resentment or I'll just let myself be a little pridefully. What's the big deal? It's not hurting anyone. It's a trick of the dark one and a dangerous trap at that. The truth is that we don't need for God to justify His will to us, only to try to understand what His will for us is and just as a six year old, who can't understand why he can't have cookies for supper, needs to trust that his parents will is for his own good, so must we with God.
I can understand that, but like I said earlier, I don't understand how I can be able to admit I need Him etc when I can't entirely be sure I totally believe? How can I get that faith that I need?

moonglow
Mar 23rd 2008, 11:19 PM
I can understand that, but like I said earlier, I don't understand how I can be able to admit I need Him etc when I can't entirely be sure I totally believe? How can I get that faith that I need?

Pray for it...ask Him for faith...only God can give that to us anyway. Right now, (just my two cents) is I wouldn't worry that much about whether you are gay or not...ALL of us need Jesus. That is the first step.

Mark 9:23-25
23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”
24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”

Unless this happens nothing else is going to change. Hang in there!

God bless

RoadWarrior
Mar 23rd 2008, 11:34 PM
...
I did contact a church a while back to ask them for some help, but as I mentioned in my other thread, I haven't been back since. I feel weird about just turning up there, I wouldn't know what to do really. I suppose I could email them again and tell them I want to attend a service. But my parents would probably want to know what I'm doing going out so early on a sunday morning :lol: as I haven't discussed this all with my mum yet..

I can understand that, but like I said earlier, I don't understand how I can be able to admit I need Him etc when I can't entirely be sure I totally believe? How can I get that faith that I need?

Would you be comfortable telling your mum that you want to go to church? Would she maybe go with you?

Getting to the place where you believe, or getting "born again" as Jesus described it, isn't really something you can plan, formulate, and do. It is something that happens to you as you are going along. Jesus said it this way:

Jn 3:8 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." NKJV

You have read Mark, now read the book of John. Mark is straightforward, chronological. John is more mystical, not necessarily chronological.

If you have questions as you go along, make notes and ask us.

lwfc
Mar 23rd 2008, 11:51 PM
Pray for it...ask Him for faith...only God can give that to us anyway. Right now, (just my two cents) is I wouldn't worry that much about whether you are gay or not...ALL of us need Jesus. That is the first step.

Mark 9:23-25
23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”
24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”

Unless this happens nothing else is going to change. Hang in there!

God bless
To pray well don't I need to have faith though? I mean at the times I've prayed is when I do feel closer to believing, but if I'm not entirely sure does praying work?


Would you be comfortable telling your mum that you want to go to church? Would she maybe go with you?
I dunno, I feel weird about telling her about it for some reason, I'm not so sure why. Religion isn't something that we ever really talk about but I think the last time we did, although I was beginning to question it in my mind, I didn't really say anything about it, and she just thinks I'm completely atheist, and it wasn't that long ago so I think the sudden change seems weird.


You have read Mark, now read the book of John. Mark is straightforward, chronological. John is more mystical, not necessarily chronological.

If you have questions as you go along, make notes and ask us.
Ok I will do that. I had some questions when I was reading Mark, but I forgot to note them down and now I have forgotten them :/

jesus-disciple
Mar 24th 2008, 12:05 AM
The main reason I have never been a Christian is because I am gay..

I recognise that the Bible clearly says it is wrong, but I have generally always just accepted that it is who I am and I can't change it. I don't believe that I chose to be this way, but I also don't believe that anyone is born gay. But I have always really wished that I was straight because it would be much easier, and if I were to become a Christian then I couldn't be gay anyway right? But how could I possibly "make" myself straight? I didn't choose to be gay, so how could I choose to be straight? I don't want to lie to myself about how I feel, and I can't help the fact that I have feelings for girls and not for guys (though, I have only actually ever had one male friend in my whole life).

It doesn't help that for the past year and a half I have had a massive crush on a good friend of mine who is a Christian, and it makes me worry that maybe the only reason I've thought about becoming a Christian and started thinking I believe in God, etc, is because of her...which would clearly not be a good reason to do so. The attraction I have to her is most of the time not sexual though, I just want to be with her all the time and she's always on my mind...I'm always happy when I'm talking to her and then I get depressed as soon as she's not around. I've toyed with the idea of telling her, but I don't think it would be a good idea as I don't want to mess up our friendship.

I've always wished I was straight, way before I started thinking about religion and believed that there was nothing wrong with being gay, because I just wanted to have a "normal" life, get married and have kids etc. But I don't want to lie to myself and deny who I really have feelings for. I really wish I could have feelings for a guy but it just doesn't seem that likely to me. I don't really know what to do about it all...:giveup:

My granddaughter is experiencing the same thing.

Hi, Sweetheart;

First, I want to say that you've met the first requirement, acknowledging that you have a problem. Secondly, never give up, as your little smiley indicates.

My granddaughter is 19 and she was brought up in church to know Jesus. About two years ago, she admitted to me that she is homosexual, which broke my heart, because I love her with all my heart. I still really don't know how to relate to this quandry, but I'm trying. I do know I'll never turn my back on her.

I'm not quoting this scripture to frighten you, but to show you how strongly God feels about homosexuality. As you can see from the second scripture, homosexuality is not the only death-penalty sin. Revelation 21:8 mentions even witchcraft, adulterers.

And here: "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." (Lev 20:13)

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I would be lying if I told you I understand this. However, if you are serious, as you say that you wish you were straight
But I have always really wished that I was straight because it would be much easier, all you have to do is confess it to Jesus and he is faithful and just to forgive you. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You may be gay, but if you want to live for Jesus, ask him for forgiveness, abstain from having sex, and live one day at a time until you know in your "knower" (heart) that you are saved and want to live the Christian life. Study your Bible. Begin to think on pure and good things and take all impure thoughts to Jesus.

Here is a good link to read: Homosexuality - A Christian Perspective http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_outlines/hom.htm

You can google for other sites on being freed from homosexuality.

All the best to you, Sweetheart, and I'll be praying for you.
jesus-disciple

RoadWarrior
Mar 24th 2008, 12:08 AM
To pray well don't I need to have faith though? I mean at the times I've prayed is when I do feel closer to believing, but if I'm not entirely sure does praying work?


Prayer is just talking to God. He will hear you, no matter how clumsy and halting. Just be honest. If you have a small amount of faith, or even hope that He is real, He will know it and honor that small bit.




I dunno, I feel weird about telling her about it for some reason, I'm not so sure why. Religion isn't something that we ever really talk about but I think the last time we did, although I was beginning to question it in my mind, I didn't really say anything about it, and she just thinks I'm completely atheist, and it wasn't that long ago so I think the sudden change seems weird.

Is she atheist? Do you have an indication from her that she would be unhappy about your going to church?

I look forward to your questions!

lwfc
Mar 24th 2008, 02:55 PM
I'm not quoting this scripture to frighten you, but to show you how strongly God feels about homosexuality. As you can see from the second scripture, homosexuality is not the only death-penalty sin. Revelation 21:8 mentions even witchcraft, adulterers.

And here: "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." (Lev 20:13)

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
I don't understand that. If God love us all, why would he want to sent people to hell just for something like not believing in him or being gay, even if you're still a good person?
Also..if homosexuals should be "put to death" as the first one says..how could you still be saved :S

I would be lying if I told you I understand this. However, if you are serious, as you say that you wish you were straight all you have to do is confess it to Jesus and he is faithful and just to forgive you. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
I've probably done more sins than just this that I'm not even aware of or don't know are sins. He probably knows what my sins are better than I do, so how can I confess them? Surely He knows already?

You may be gay, but if you want to live for Jesus, ask him for forgiveness, abstain from having sex, and live one day at a time until you know in your "knower" (heart) that you are saved and want to live the Christian life. Study your Bible. Begin to think on pure and good things and take all impure thoughts to Jesus.

Here is a good link to read: Homosexuality - A Christian Perspective http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_outlines/hom.htm
To be honest for a long time I have been abstaining anyway :lol:
I will look at the link.


Is she atheist? Do you have an indication from her that she would be unhappy about your going to church?
I don't know what she believes to be honest. I always presumed that because I was baptized when I was a baby that she at least believed in God even if she wasn't that religious, but we were talking about some quiz that was in the paper a while ago that gave me the impression that maybe she doesn't. But I dunno. I'm just wary because most of my family are atheists and I think they might make fun of me for changing my mind.

Gypsy
Mar 24th 2008, 03:21 PM
I can understand that, but like I said earlier, I don't understand how I can be able to admit I need Him etc when I can't entirely be sure I totally believe? How can I get that faith that I need?Each of our walks are different, so my path, or anyone else’s, might not be the right way for you. Faith is like love – you can’t just go buy a jug of it at the market. For some people that faith comes like a fire-hose and for some people it comes drip by drip, but for sure it will come if you ask for it. Ask yourself why you keep coming here. Don’t you think you’re being lead? Don’t you think that all of us who have written to you are being lead to do so? He is calling you Laura and I believe that what you have been doing by reading scripture and coming here and talking to Christians is pleasing to Him. Just give yourself a chance. Be open to Him. Ask Him to make Himself known to you. Tell Him you feel confused. Tell Him your lost or scared or lonely. Tell Him that you can’t decide what to have for lunch. You’re not bugging Him – He digs it!

To be honest that’s all there really is to being a Christian – having a relationship with Jesus Christ. He will take care of all the rest. Honest, He will!

lwfc
Mar 24th 2008, 03:33 PM
Yeah, I do feel like there has been a reason for me questioning things, coming here, talking to other Christians, listening to a lot of Christian music etc. I do think that He is leading me to do this. He has led me this far and now I just want believe in him completely...

YoungLink
Mar 24th 2008, 03:43 PM
Also..if homosexuals should be "put to death" as the first one says..how could you still be saved :S

Yeah, lol out of context that is difficult to get.
The first was a quote from the Old Testament- it showed the penalty for the sin. The penalty would have obviously been a deterrent, but the problem wouldn't go away entirely as it is not just the physical act that is wrong.
Jesus in the New Testament took the place of the sinner to be the sinless sacrifice.

Gypsy
Mar 24th 2008, 04:05 PM
I just want believe in him completely...
Well isn't this in and of itself a sort of profession of faith? If you want something then to you it must have value and for it to have value you have to believe that it exists to begin with.

lwfc
Mar 24th 2008, 04:07 PM
But wanting to believe in something and actually sincerely believing it are different things surely? I still keep telling myself that I'm being stupid about the whole thing sometimes...

Gypsy
Mar 24th 2008, 04:13 PM
Laura, don't let anyone here tell you that they haven't had doubts. Every Christian has. Hes not counting how many times you fall down. Hes counting how many times you get back up. My point before is that if you do want to believe in something that badly then on some level you must at least believe it exists. Do you feel the same way about wanting to believe in Santa Clause?

RoadWarrior
Mar 24th 2008, 04:14 PM
But wanting to believe in something and actually sincerely believing it are different things surely? I still keep telling myself that I'm being stupid about the whole thing sometimes...

You are not being stupid. I came to the Lord when I was still unsure of my own belief - my own faith. Faith grows as we practice it.

Just as a journey of a thousand miles begins with one step, so does this journey. You are already on the first step, by being here, by asking questions, by wanting to believe.

lwfc
Mar 24th 2008, 04:19 PM
Laura, don't let anyone here tell you that they haven't had doubts. Every Christian has. Hes not counting how many times you fall down. Hes counting how many times you get back up. My point before is that if you do want to believe in something that badly then on some level you must at least believe it exists. Do you feel the same way about wanting to believe in Santa Clause?
Well, I'd like to believe in Santa because it made Christmas more exciting when I was little. Doesn't mean that I do though :lol: I see what you mean though I guess.

Gypsy
Mar 24th 2008, 04:25 PM
Laura, I think you're doing just fine. I'm going to have to log off soon. I need to travel for my job. I just don't want you to think I'm blowing you off. Keep praying. Keep reading the bible. and keep comming here. I promise you - it's so much better than Santa Clause!!!

tango
Mar 24th 2008, 09:14 PM
lwfc, there's a lady on here who goes by the name of hootinannie who is a former le$bian, you might find some of her posts interesting.

One example is here (you'll need to scroll down a few posts in the thread, and since it's not in this section you're not allowed to post in the thread yourself). You may find it interesting.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=115139

lwfc
Mar 24th 2008, 10:45 PM
I went and read her testimony thread...it was very powerful!

jesus-disciple
Mar 25th 2008, 12:32 AM
I'm not quoting this scripture to frighten you, but to show you how strongly God feels about homosexuality. As you can see from the second scripture, homosexuality is not the only death-penalty sin. Revelation 21:8 mentions even witchcraft, adulterers.

And here: "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." (Lev 20:13)

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


I don't understand that. If God love us all, why would he want to sent people to hell just for something like not believing in him or being gay, even if you're still a good person? Also..if homosexuals should be "put to death" as the first one says..how could you still be saved :S

God loves us all and does not want to see anyone go to hell. Instead, from the beginning, it has been his desire that we dwell with him. Because Adam and Eve brought sin into the world, we are all now born in sin. God wanted a way to bring us all to back to him. God is a holy God and our sins separate us from him. So he had to have a perfect sacrifice, not one of animals or herbs, but a sacrifice of perfect blood. So, he sent Jesus into the world to be that perfect sacrifice for our sins. Jesus took upon himself our sins that we may be presented to God without spot or blemish. Because we are born into sin, we need a way back to God, because sin separates us from God.

You see, I'm a Christian and, though I do not practice any of the sins listed above, I would be eternally damned, also, if I didn't allow to be Jesus my savior, as my sacrifice for my sin.

Romans 6:23 tells us: For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


I've probably done more sins than just this that I'm not even aware of or don't know are sins. He probably knows what my sins are better than I do, so how can I confess them? Surely He knows already?

Hon, you've done no more than anyone else. The difference is, we've given our lives to Jesus and no longer do those things.

Yes, he knows everything you've done, and it grieves his Holy Spirit, especially since he knows that all you have to do is have a genuine sorrow for the wrong you've done and live for Jesus.

In God's love,
jesus-disciple (Faye)

lwfc
Mar 25th 2008, 04:59 PM
Why is everyone "born into" sin just because Adam and Eve chose to disobey God? Even if they have never done any of those sins themselves? Like you said you don't do any of those things, but still need Jesus to forgive your sin? :S

Gypsy
Mar 25th 2008, 08:26 PM
Why is everyone "born into" sin just because Adam and Eve chose to disobey God? Even if they have never done any of those sins themselves? Like you said you don't do any of those things, but still need Jesus to forgive your sin?


Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.We are born into a world that has been damaged by the sin of Adam and Eve. The point is not that we are paying for the original sin, but that we are, by nature sinners. Even the smallest children sill tantrum in selfishness. I’ve never known a child who had to be taught to lie or to at some point disobey their parents.

Adam's sin brought sin into the world, but we are all still sinners. The cool thing is that just as it took only one man (Adam) to bring sin into the world so that we all fell from His grace, it took only one man (Jesus) to have it forgiven!

God Bless

lwfc
Mar 25th 2008, 11:18 PM
Are we sinners by nature because of Adam's sin though? If so, why? He did it and not us? If Adam and Eve had not sinned and sin hadn't entered the world as a result, would humans still be sinful by their nature? And why did God create us knowing that this would happen if he didn't want us to sin?

RoadWarrior
Mar 25th 2008, 11:39 PM
Are we sinners by nature because of Adam's sin though? If so, why? He did it and not us? If Adam and Eve had not sinned and sin hadn't entered the world as a result, would humans still be sinful by their nature? And why did God create us knowing that this would happen if he didn't want us to sin?

The tree in the garden of Eden was the knowledge of good and evil. That knowledge entered the world, entered into the family of man, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Once it was here, there was no "undo" key to back up and make it not so. And everyone born into the world now would have this "virus", this knowledge that there is good in the world, and there is evil in the world.

What God did, was give mankind another chance. Now we know the difference, and it is up to us to choose which we prefer - the evil or the good. These choices come to us in a hundred different ways day by day.

But there is one major choice, which ultimately is the choice that helps us to determine all the other choices that we make. If we choose God, then we are choosing the good. If not, we are choosing the evil. All the rest of our choices grow out of that basic decision.

Knowledge is not the same thing as wisdom. When you read the book of Proverbs, you will read a lot about wisdom, which we need in order to make wise choices and decisions in all the hundred decisions of the day.

lwfc
Mar 25th 2008, 11:43 PM
Ok, but...why did God put the tree there? If he didn't want evil in the world couldn't he just have not created the tree? Because by creating the tree he knew people would get the knowledge of evil and in doing so he therefore created evil? Why woukd he want to create evil?

I understand the choosing God and therefore choosing the good, but why is evil there to start with?

RoadWarrior
Mar 25th 2008, 11:53 PM
Ok, but...why did God put the tree there? If he didn't want evil in the world couldn't he just have not created the tree? Because by creating the tree he knew people would get the knowledge of evil and in doing so he therefore created evil? Why woukd he want to create evil?

I understand the choosing God and therefore choosing the good, but why is evil there to start with?

This is a mystery. I think we all have wondered about that. When I wondered about it, I tried to learn what was going on between God and the serpent. So I did a study. I have a thread about that subject if you want to read it. This is what I came up with when I was struggling with the same question.

It may not be a complete answer but it was enough for me to decide that I wanted to be on God's side.

If you want, you can link to the thread and read it:
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=118545

Then come back here to ask questions. Not everyone agrees with my findings, but it will give a starting point for your questions.

lwfc
Mar 25th 2008, 11:55 PM
Thanks, it's a bit late for me to read it right now (midnight...I need to stop staying up so late :/) But I will definately read it at some point and get back to you.

Gypsy
Mar 26th 2008, 02:01 AM
Are we sinners by nature because of Adam's sin though? If so, why? He did it and not us? If Adam and Eve had not sinned and sin hadn't entered the world as a result, would humans still be sinful by their nature? And why did God create us knowing that this would happen if he didn't want us to sin?This always seems to be a balking point for a lot of folks in the beginning and frankly I’m not sure why because, even before I was saved, I knew that I was a sinner. I knew that I, nowhere close, was deserving of His grace and love. If you could show me one sinless person then maybe I could say –“ yeah they got a raw deal”, but as far as I know, there has only ever been one and He chose to die horribly to pay the ransom for the rest of our sins. I think that in the beginning, folks say “well what’s the big deal? It’s just an apple. I could have resisted that! I could have done better!” But what if it wasn’t? What if I were Adam and God had said “Jeffrey, do whatever you want, just don’t have a beer or eat these peanut butter cookies ever” or you were Adam and He had said “Laura, you can have anything, but just don’t think of your friend lustfully”? The fact is that we all would fail, because we all are sinful. You, me, Mother Teresa, Gandhi, we all have sinned and none of us deserve His grace (do you know what I mean when I say grace?)

As far as why it had to be like that? Why didn’t He just make us not sinful?; well really that’s God’s business not mine, but I think of it like this: Did you ever have a boyfriend/girlfriend (sorry I’m not trying to be funny) who was just so in love with you that they did whatever you wanted? Liked whatever you liked? Believed whatever you believed? That there was nothing to them themselves but the desire to make you want them? It didn’t work did it? Because the act of true love has to be the result of a choice and that person had no choice. They were just so puppy dog, blue eyed, mindless sure that they loved you that nothing about themselves mattered to themselves. I think it’s the same with God. He doesn’t want us to be automatic love robots. He wants us to freely choose to love him, but to freely choose to love Him He has to give us a choice – enter free will. Free will is our choice to accept God’s love or not to. By making the choice we demonstrate to Him our genuine love or lack there of.

God Bless.

tango
Mar 26th 2008, 07:18 AM
Ok, but...why did God put the tree there? If he didn't want evil in the world couldn't he just have not created the tree? Because by creating the tree he knew people would get the knowledge of evil and in doing so he therefore created evil? Why woukd he want to create evil?

I understand the choosing God and therefore choosing the good, but why is evil there to start with?

lwfc, you may find another one of hootinannie's threads interesting here. It's long but well worth sticking with. It's titled "New light on the age-old problem of sin", and you can read it here:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=100442

Duane Morse
Mar 26th 2008, 07:49 AM
The main reason I have never been a Christian is because I am gay..

I recognise that the Bible clearly says it is wrong, but I have generally always just accepted that it is who I am and I can't change it. I don't believe that I chose to be this way, but I also don't believe that anyone is born gay. But I have always really wished that I was straight because it would be much easier, and if I were to become a Christian then I couldn't be gay anyway right? But how could I possibly "make" myself straight? I didn't choose to be gay, so how could I choose to be straight? I don't want to lie to myself about how I feel, and I can't help the fact that I have feelings for girls and not for guys (though, I have only actually ever had one male friend in my whole life).

It doesn't help that for the past year and a half I have had a massive crush on a good friend of mine who is a Christian, and it makes me worry that maybe the only reason I've thought about becoming a Christian and started thinking I believe in God, etc, is because of her...which would clearly not be a good reason to do so. The attraction I have to her is most of the time not sexual though, I just want to be with her all the time and she's always on my mind...I'm always happy when I'm talking to her and then I get depressed as soon as she's not around. I've toyed with the idea of telling her, but I don't think it would be a good idea as I don't want to mess up our friendship.

I've always wished I was straight, way before I started thinking about religion and believed that there was nothing wrong with being gay, because I just wanted to have a "normal" life, get married and have kids etc. But I don't want to lie to myself and deny who I really have feelings for. I really wish I could have feelings for a guy but it just doesn't seem that likely to me. I don't really know what to do about it all...:giveup:
I really wonder how you can think both ways.

You don't think anyone is born gay, yet it is who and what you are and you can't change it?

If you were not born gay, then some experience influenced your decision to be gay.
And if that is so, then you should be able to change it by understanding the event for what it was.

Sorry, but it can't be both ways.
Either you are born that way, or your environment molded you.

Either you have no free choice in the matter, because you simply are gay because of genetic or spiritual factors - or you have freely chosen (even if only on the subconscious level) to be gay because of circumstances in your surrounding environment.

aliveinchrist
Mar 28th 2008, 12:13 AM
I don't understand that. If God love us all, why would he want to sent people to hell just for something like not believing in him or being gay, even if you're still a good person?

Also..if homosexuals should be "put to death" as the first one says..how could you still be saved :S

I've probably done more sins than just this that I'm not even aware of or don't know are sins. He probably knows what my sins are better than I do, so how can I confess them? Surely He knows already?

To be honest for a long time I have been abstaining anyway :lol:
I will look at the link.


I don't know what she believes to be honest. I always presumed that because I was baptized when I was a baby that she at least believed in God even if she wasn't that religious, but we were talking about some quiz that was in the paper a while ago that gave me the impression that maybe she doesn't. But I dunno. I'm just wary because most of my family are atheists and I think they might make fun of me for changing my mind.

I'm a little late here. Been having problems with my computer. (stupid syware) Anyways, I read this post of yours, and I really wanted to respond to it.

lwfc, God doesn't send people to hell. We send ourselves to hell by rejecting Jesus as our savior. Being a good person doesn't matter. You have to have Jesus in your heart and accept Him as your lord and savior. Just being "good" has no warrant.

Homosexuality, as any other sin, can be forgiven by Jesus if the person asks for it. That passage was in the old testament, so, from my understanding, it doesn't stand that they should be "put to death", as Jesus paid the penalty for our sins. Am I making sense? Back in the old testament, WE paid for our sins, hence being put to death. When Jesus came, HE paid for our sins. So now, all we have to do is ask for forgiveness for them. Pretty easy, huh?

But that verse is still an example of how much God detests homosexuality. (He detests ALL sin, but since the subject is homosexuality, that's what I'll use.)

Even if you don't know what your sins are, you can still ask forgiveness by saying something like "Lord, as a human, I know I've sinned. I don't know specificly, but I ask forgiveness for any sins that I have committed". Something along those lines.

Don't you worry about being made fun of. As followers of Christ, we ARE going to be made fun of. Put down, scorned, etc. But it's not US personally they scorn, it's Jesus. Atheists are doing precisely what Satan wants. To divert people from Jesus. Don't let them sway you or confuse you.

Love in Jesus,
Michelle

lwfc
Mar 28th 2008, 03:14 PM
Sorry I've not replied for a few days, I've been quite busy.


This always seems to be a balking point for a lot of folks in the beginning and frankly I’m not sure why because, even before I was saved, I knew that I was a sinner. I knew that I, nowhere close, was deserving of His grace and love. If you could show me one sinless person then maybe I could say –“ yeah they got a raw deal”, but as far as I know, there has only ever been one and He chose to die horribly to pay the ransom for the rest of our sins. I think that in the beginning, folks say “well what’s the big deal? It’s just an apple. I could have resisted that! I could have done better!” But what if it wasn’t? What if I were Adam and God had said “Jeffrey, do whatever you want, just don’t have a beer or eat these peanut butter cookies ever” or you were Adam and He had said “Laura, you can have anything, but just don’t think of your friend lustfully”? The fact is that we all would fail, because we all are sinful. You, me, Mother Teresa, Gandhi, we all have sinned and none of us deserve His grace (do you know what I mean when I say grace?)
I thought that the sin came into the world once he had eaten the apple? So was he still sinful before, which is why he ate the apple?
Um..I think I know what grace means. I'm not sure. What do you mean by it?


As far as why it had to be like that? Why didn’t He just make us not sinful?; well really that’s God’s business not mine, but I think of it like this: Did you ever have a boyfriend/girlfriend (sorry I’m not trying to be funny) who was just so in love with you that they did whatever you wanted? Liked whatever you liked? Believed whatever you believed? That there was nothing to them themselves but the desire to make you want them? It didn’t work did it? Because the act of true love has to be the result of a choice and that person had no choice. They were just so puppy dog, blue eyed, mindless sure that they loved you that nothing about themselves mattered to themselves. I think it’s the same with God. He doesn’t want us to be automatic love robots. He wants us to freely choose to love him, but to freely choose to love Him He has to give us a choice – enter free will. Free will is our choice to accept God’s love or not to. By making the choice we demonstrate to Him our genuine love or lack there of.

Hmm, I'd never thought of it like that before, but I suppose that makes sense. I haven't had someone like that :lol:, but I see what you mean. Love doesn't really mean anything if it's not a choice.


lwfc, you may find another one of hootinannie's threads interesting here. It's long but well worth sticking with. It's titled "New light on the age-old problem of sin", and you can read it here:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=100442
Thanks, I'll have a read at some point, I'm kinda busy lately so it might be a while until I get a chance to read it properly.


I really wonder how you can think both ways.

You don't think anyone is born gay, yet it is who and what you are and you can't change it?

If you were not born gay, then some experience influenced your decision to be gay.
And if that is so, then you should be able to change it by understanding the event for what it was.

Sorry, but it can't be both ways.
Either you are born that way, or your environment molded you.

Either you have no free choice in the matter, because you simply are gay because of genetic or spiritual factors - or you have freely chosen (even if only on the subconscious level) to be gay because of circumstances in your surrounding environment.
What I mean, is that I don't believe anyone is born gay, because it wouldn't make sense from either a religious or non-religious point of view. Why would God let people be born gay if it is a sin? (if he would, then that's not a God I want to believe in). But from an evolutionary point of view it also wouldn't make sense because it prevents people from reproducing.

I also don't believe that I made a free and concious choice to be gay, why would I wish to do that, and just make things harder for myself. I'm aware that some gay people may have for some reason chosen to be that way, but it's definately not the case for the majority.

I don't know what it is that makes people become gay, but I think that it has something to do with your upbringing, the environment around you, etc. As I said I've been mostly surrounded by girls my whole life and perhaps that is what made me become gay. It may have influenced me to subconciously "choose" to be gay, but what I meant in my first post is that I certainly don't believe that it was a decision I was aware of making.


lwfc, God doesn't send people to hell. We send ourselves to hell by rejecting Jesus as our savior. Being a good person doesn't matter. You have to have Jesus in your heart and accept Him as your lord and savior. Just being "good" has no warrant.
But surely he is capable of stopping people from going to hell? So why does he still allow them to? Why would he create hell and allow people to go there if he loved them?


Homosexuality, as any other sin, can be forgiven by Jesus if the person asks for it. That passage was in the old testament, so, from my understanding, it doesn't stand that they should be "put to death", as Jesus paid the penalty for our sins. Am I making sense? Back in the old testament, WE paid for our sins, hence being put to death. When Jesus came, HE paid for our sins. So now, all we have to do is ask for forgiveness for them. Pretty easy, huh?
If someone sinned before Jesus was about, and they were put to death, how would they be able to be forgiven for their sins? Wouldn't everyone just have ended up going to hell?

Revinius
Mar 28th 2008, 05:34 PM
But surely he is capable of stopping people from going to hell? So why does he still allow them to? Why would he create hell and allow people to go there if he loved them?

He is more than capable of doing anything, thats pretty much established by the title "all-powerful". The real clincher is that in all his power he wants people to choose either him or their own way. That is the nature of love after all. Hell was originally created for Satan. It's a place of supreme seperation from all that is good of God, its also a place of supreme justice from God. Because we have rebelled like Satan did, we will experience a similar fate. Those who dont desire God are granted their wish and are seperated from him for eternity. I cant imagine a worse fate, which is what makes the message so much more urgent.



If someone sinned before Jesus was about, and they were put to death, how would they be able to be forgiven for their sins? Wouldn't everyone just have ended up going to hell?

Jesus has always been about. At the start of the Gospel of John it states that the Word (Jesus) preceded creation. God is always the same and has always existed in triune unity/community with himself. The standards of the law have and always will exist, just because they were revealed to the Jews in Exodus "because their hearts were hard" doesnt mean the law hasnt always been there. But what is interesting in this is the law is a vehicle for faith. You need faith before the law has meaning for you, and it is by faith we are told we are saved. Jesus died for all that would have faith in him, in and for all time.

I seem to have condensed alot of information into one paragraph :rofl: so if you need confirmation on any of those points please dont hesitate to ask. :hug:

tango
Mar 28th 2008, 08:28 PM
But surely he is capable of stopping people from going to hell? So why does he still allow them to? Why would he create hell and allow people to go there if he loved them?

God loves us enough to give us a free choice. We can choose to be with God, or we can choose to be separated from God.

If we choose to be separated from God, we get what we chose. To turn your question around, why would a loving God force us to be with him if we had chosen not to be with him?

Gypsy
Mar 30th 2008, 03:06 PM
I thought that the sin came into the world once he had eaten the apple? So was he still sinful before, which is why he ate the apple?
Um..I think I know what grace means. I'm not sure. What do you mean by it?Understand that God is not bound to time like you and I are, so to Him there is no “before he ate the apple” (just so you know, although popularly the forbidden fruit is portrayed as an apple, it never really says so in scripture. Many researchers say that based on the location it was more likely a pomegranate!) The way I understand it (and I’m sure some of the more experienced Christians will correct me if I’m off base – this is kind of big brain stuff for me) we are both shamed in His eyes by that original sin and our own sinfulness. We live in a world that is sodden with sin, because Adam’s choice allowed sin into this world. It’s like poison in the air which surrounds us and infects the flesh of our bodies. So even if someone could manage to live a perfectly virtuous life (and they couldn’t), they would still be bound to that sin by birth through their flesh. But the point is that we are all sinful anyway, Adam, you, me, my mamma – sinful! But God created time and exists outside of it. To Him, Adam didn’t choose to sin before he sinned, and that didn’t happen before I told my first lie or got drunk in the woods with my buddies in high school. The whole of humanity is just sinful and the one thing that He can not tolerate is sin, because He is perfect. Perfectly good. Perfectly loving. And Perfectly just. The wage of sin is death and that ransom has to be paid for us to be with Him.

Enter grace. Grace to a Christian, is the act of love, where it is unwarranted. It is central to our faith.




16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.He loved us so perfectly and wanted us to be with Him so badly, that He Himself paid that ransom. He Himself became man and lived the perfectly virtuous life, the sacrifice of which was necessary to atone for all of the sin of the world. That his blood has washed away, not only the sin of Adam, but of all of humanity. All that is required of us is to recognize that sacrifice and to ask to, learn about and follow His will.

He loves you Laura, as much as me or anyone else on this board! God Bless and you are in my prayers.

lwfc
Mar 31st 2008, 08:58 PM
I had a really good talk with my friend last night. She was telling me a lot about being Christian and what it's like for her and stuff, and asked some questions that I asked her and it was really nice. I think I agree with what someone said earlier in the thread, that my attraction to her may be something more to do with seeing the affect being Christian has in her life and wanting that for myself. I find myself to be really interested in what she has to say when she talks about it.

Talking to her and hearing what she had to say about it I think made me want to become a Christian more, and I think helped me understand quite a bit more.

I understand the things that people have said to me so far in this thread about being gay and stuff, and I really would like to have God in my life. But it still is a little bit hard to take, having to "give up" being gay. I suppose I find it hard to take that the love that I feel is a sin. I can't quite explain what I'm trying to say really. But from what I've seen, there are some churches that accept homosexuality, and say that it is ok? It just seems to me like, if some people are Christians, but also they are gay, do I really have to stop being gay, if these people don't? What are people's views on this? Do you think these people may have a valid point that it's not that part or do you believe that they're simply only choosing to believe the bits that they want to believe aren't aren't really true Christians? I mean, before I considered becoming a Christian, I was always quite annoyed by "homophobic" attitudes of Christians as I found it quite hyprocritical that the same book of the Bible that comdemns homosexuality also condems things like vegtable gardens and clothes made out of polyester, but no-one seems to take notice of these verses? I mean that part does still confuse me quite a bit...why is it that homosexuality is still regarded as a sin but these things are not?


He is more than capable of doing anything, thats pretty much established by the title "all-powerful". The real clincher is that in all his power he wants people to choose either him or their own way. That is the nature of love after all. Hell was originally created for Satan. It's a place of supreme seperation from all that is good of God, its also a place of supreme justice from God. Because we have rebelled like Satan did, we will experience a similar fate. Those who dont desire God are granted their wish and are seperated from him for eternity. I cant imagine a worse fate, which is what makes the message so much more urgent.
What about people that do desire God but can't quite find the faith that they need and aren't completely sure? Do they get sent to hell as well?


Jesus has always been about. At the start of the Gospel of John it states that the Word (Jesus) preceded creation. God is always the same and has always existed in triune unity/community with himself. The standards of the law have and always will exist, just because they were revealed to the Jews in Exodus "because their hearts were hard" doesnt mean the law hasnt always been there. But what is interesting in this is the law is a vehicle for faith. You need faith before the law has meaning for you, and it is by faith we are told we are saved. Jesus died for all that would have faith in him, in and for all time.
What I meant was before Jesus came for earth and died for our sins...before that, what happened to people who sinned? They couldn't have it taken away by Jesus if he had not died for their sins yet surely? So...if they had to pay for their sins with death, how were they to be forgiven? I'm a little confused by your paragraph to be honest :lol:


God loves us enough to give us a free choice. We can choose to be with God, or we can choose to be separated from God.

If we choose to be separated from God, we get what we chose. To turn your question around, why would a loving God force us to be with him if we had chosen not to be with him?
That's a fair point..but isn't hell supposed to be all fire and suffering etc? I can understand people not getting to be with God if they don't wish to, but surely God still loves them, and why would he wish to punish them? Especially people who, perhaps due to where they lived, were unable to find God, or break away from their existing religions? Do they deserve to be punished that way simply due to the circumstances of their life?



He loved us so perfectly and wanted us to be with Him so badly, that He Himself paid that ransom. He Himself became man and lived the perfectly virtuous life, the sacrifice of which was necessary to atone for all of the sin of the world. That his blood has washed away, not only the sin of Adam, but of all of humanity. All that is required of us is to recognize that sacrifice and to ask to, learn about and follow His will.
If every person is inherantly sinful, why, when God become man himself, was he not sinful too? If someone lived in the same way that Jesus did, they would still be sinful, but he wasn't?

tango
Mar 31st 2008, 09:19 PM
What you'll often find (this is based on my own experience as well as a few other people's experience) is that when you become a Christian a lot of the worldly stuff you used to enjoy just doesn't cut it any more. It really is like becoming a different person. Sometimes the effect is immediate, sometimes it's gradual, but the difference is the same sooner or later.

I'm not going to tell you that homosexuality isn't a sin because I believe the Bible is pretty clear on that. It's certainly not the only sin, but it's often easier for people to remove the speck from someone else's eye than the log from their own eye (Matthew 7:3-4).

I can't directly relate to the feelings you're experiencing, but I can say that God's spirit will convict you of things in your life that need to change. Exactly how that happens will vary from person to person. Focus on what the Bible says and how the Spirit convicts you rather than worrying about how someone else is living their life. If you were driving somewhere you'd use a map, you wouldn't just follow the car in front and hope they knew the way - in the same way when you're becoming more like God you need to be careful who you follow.




That's a fair point..but isn't hell supposed to be all fire and suffering etc? I can understand people not getting to be with God if they don't wish to, but surely God still loves them, and why would he wish to punish them? Especially people who, perhaps due to where they lived, were unable to find God, or break away from their existing religions? Do they deserve to be punished that way simply due to the circumstances of their life?


If you think of hell as somewhere away from God you probably get a better picture than the notions of fire and demons poking people with sharp sticks. I can see where you're coming from with your question, but by the same token why would God force something on us when we had chosen something else?

People can break away from their religions if they choose to. They might be shunned for it, they might be imprisoned or even executed for it. But these people are blessed and rewarded in heaven (1Peter 3:14).

aliveinchrist
Apr 1st 2008, 02:02 AM
What about people that do desire God but can't quite find the faith that they need and aren't completely sure? Do they get sent to hell as well?

Yes, they do go to hell. Because they didn't choose Him. As I said below, there are no excuses.


That's a fair point..but isn't hell supposed to be all fire and suffering etc? I can understand people not getting to be with God if they don't wish to, but surely God still loves them, and why would he wish to punish them?

Of course God still loves them. But God does not punish them. We punish ourselve, WE choose hell, when we reject Him. Think of it this way:

God says "Will you come to me, my child?" I say (something along the lines of), "No way! I've got my own life to live!" or "No, I don't think I can right now......I've got too many things to figure out.....not right now."

Basically, I say "No, God". By saying no, ultimately, I have chosen hell. By rejecting God, we choose hell. By accepting God, we choose heaven.



Especially people who, perhaps due to where they lived, were unable to find God, or break away from their existing religions?

God makes Himself available to everybody in some way. There are no excuses.

Do they deserve to be punished that way simply due to the circumstances of their life?

Like I said, there are no excuses.


If every person is inherantly sinful, why, when God become man himself, was he not sinful too? If someone lived in the same way that Jesus did, they would still be sinful, but he wasn't?

Because He is perfect. He became LIKE man in the flesh, but He was not like man in sinful nature. Jesus is perfect. He CAN'T be sinful.

Revinius
Apr 1st 2008, 02:43 AM
why is it that homosexuality is still regarded as a sin but these things are not?

I'll refer you to this site as it seems to have a good explanation.
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/lawrole.html

Homosexuality, and indeed all sin regarding sex, is mentioned a great deal throughout the Bible. In fact God loathes those who misuse the gifts he gave them in all things. The real issue above all is that God gave us such things for the use in our enjoyment and his glory and we havent showed him respect in doing just that. We have done the opposite and taken something beautiful and perverted it. The fact that sexual sin is such an issue is that it is something incredibly intimate. Marriage is an illustration of the relationship between God and the Church, an intimate connection. So ofcourse if something that is so close and so special has become so corrupt and ungodly, then ofcourse its going to be a problem. I am getting tired and have work to do soon, if you wanna talk more on this your welcome. :)



What about people that do desire God but can't quite find the faith that they need and aren't completely sure? Do they get sent to hell as well?


Luke 11:10 "For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." If you honestly and openly seek the Lord you will find him. :hug:



What I meant was before Jesus came for earth and died for our sins...before that, what happened to people who sinned? They couldn't have it taken away by Jesus if he had not died for their sins yet surely? So...if they had to pay for their sins with death, how were they to be forgiven? I'm a little confused by your paragraph to be honest :lol:


Yeah alot of scripture is hard to grasp. The bulk of the levitical law covers the whole topic of sin and how its to be atoned for. Ever wonder why Christians often refer to Jesus as the 'lamb of God'? Well lambs were used as an offering of atonement in the OT for the sins of the people of Israel against God. The punishment for their sin was poured into the lamb so Gods justice could be satisfied. Jesus is the ultimate sin offer, he paid with death the price we rightfully should have paid. This is what is so enormous about what he did and why Christians are always talking about him. :)

That's a fair point..but isn't hell supposed to be all fire and suffering etc? I can understand people not getting to be with God if they don't wish to, but surely God still loves them, and why would he wish to punish them? Especially people who, perhaps due to where they lived, were unable to find God, or break away from their existing religions? Do they deserve to be punished that way simply due to the circumstances of their life?




If every person is inherantly sinful, why, when God become man himself, was he not sinful too? If someone lived in the same way that Jesus did, they would still be sinful, but he wasn't?


Yup he was an anomally. A perfect sinless lamb to the slaughter. Some find it hard to believe he lived a life without sin but being God and all its hard to rebel against oneself :P. What is worth mentioning is that God's becoming a man gave him the frailties that are of man. He was not sinful but he was finite. He could die, and as is recorded he did and rose again. On one hand God shows his human side and the other proves his divinity by raising himself from the dead.

Gypsy
Apr 1st 2008, 03:14 PM
If every person is inherantly sinful, why, when God become man himself, was he not sinful too? If someone lived in the same way that Jesus did, they would still be sinful, but he wasn't?




9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form
This gets at why there must be a concept of the trinity. Father, Son, Holy Spirit = 3 persons = 1 God. Jesus was his own person, but He was also God. It's difficult to understand at first but in the one body of Christ there coexisted two natures, both God:




1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. . . .14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.and man:




14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.His human nature was just like ours, He could stub His toe, be tempted, die, but His divine nature was perfect. If His human nature was separable from the divine and existed on its own then it would have been capable of sin, but it was not. He is both God and man, human and divine, and His divine nature is pure and incapable of sin.



1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
and had to be as such as only a perfectly morally pure man could offer Himself as the sacrifice for all sin to an infinitely holy God. I know I probably butchered that a little, but I hope in makes some sense.



But it still is a little bit hard to take, having to "give up" being gay.I'd say don't even think or worry about this right now. Don't think of being Christian as a set of rules - CHRISTIANITY IS NOT ABOUT RULES, IT'S ABOUT HAVING A RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS! PERIOD! He will show you the path that the Father intends for you. Not me. Not anyone on this board. Not the girl you've been talking to. He may use us to show His will to you, but it's His will we serve, not our own or each other's and He will give you the strength to follow that path. You're gonna tear yourself up over the weighing pros and cons of both sin and love - "Well Gee, on the one hand God's eternal love does sound pretty good, but on the other drunkenness, or immoral sex or drugs or lust or whatever is just so darn fun. Maybe if I could just make God understand how important it is to me". It just doesn't work like that and you're gonna make yourself crazy! Dedicate yourself to loving Jesus and say "what will be, will be" and follow where He leads you. He'll take you there!

He's right there next to you Laura. Give Him your hand.

God's Love

lwfc
Apr 11th 2008, 11:38 PM
Sorry it's taken me a while to reply!


I can't directly relate to the feelings you're experiencing, but I can say that God's spirit will convict you of things in your life that need to change. Exactly how that happens will vary from person to person. Focus on what the Bible says and how the Spirit convicts you rather than worrying about how someone else is living their life. If you were driving somewhere you'd use a map, you wouldn't just follow the car in front and hope they knew the way - in the same way when you're becoming more like God you need to be careful who you follow.
How exactly? You mean like a sign that I need to stop doing something? I mean I'm technicall doing nothing wrong right now as I'm not in any kind of relationship anyway? How am I supposed to know of some kind of sign?


If you think of hell as somewhere away from God you probably get a better picture than the notions of fire and demons poking people with sharp sticks. I can see where you're coming from with your question, but by the same token why would God force something on us when we had chosen something else?
Yes, I can see that if you did not wish to be with God then you shouldn't have to be, but isn't that what hell is supposedly like - fire and suffering etc? If it is like that, then it doesn't really seem like he is giving people a fair choice. It's "choose me or you'll burn in hell forever"...seems like a bit of a threat really? I can understand being apart from God, but do people really need to be punished in this way? He created us knowing that many people would not obey him and he would have to send them to hell...but making them suffer for eternity doesn't seem like a very loving thing to do?[/QUOTE]


People can break away from their religions if they choose to. They might be shunned for it, they might be imprisoned or even executed for it. But these people are blessed and rewarded in heaven (1Peter 3:14).
But what if they never even hear the christian message? How could they know? Are they to be punished simply for not knowing about it due to where they live?


Of course God still loves them. But God does not punish them. We punish ourselve, WE choose hell, when we reject Him. Think of it this way:

God says "Will you come to me, my child?" I say (something along the lines of), "No way! I've got my own life to live!" or "No, I don't think I can right now......I've got too many things to figure out.....not right now."

Basically, I say "No, God". By saying no, ultimately, I have chosen hell. By rejecting God, we choose hell. By accepting God, we choose heaven.
But why make hell like that, as an option, in the first place?


Luke 11:10 "For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." If you honestly and openly seek the Lord you will find him. :hug:
Really, cause I've been trying but at times it doesn't feel much like that :( It's all very overwhelming and confusing to get my head around...I just often feel like, I don't know what to do with all this...


Yup he was an anomally. A perfect sinless lamb to the slaughter. Some find it hard to believe he lived a life without sin but being God and all its hard to rebel against oneself :P.
Ok that makes sense...I do have another question though, a little bit unrelated. If Jesus was God, then why did he pray? Who exactly was he praying to if he was God?


I'd say don't even think or worry about this right now. Don't think of being Christian as a set of rules - CHRISTIANITY IS NOT ABOUT RULES, IT'S ABOUT HAVING A RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS! PERIOD! He will show you the path that the Father intends for you. Not me. Not anyone on this board. Not the girl you've been talking to. He may use us to show His will to you, but it's His will we serve, not our own or each other's and He will give you the strength to follow that path. You're gonna tear yourself up over the weighing pros and cons of both sin and love - "Well Gee, on the one hand God's eternal love does sound pretty good, but on the other drunkenness, or immoral sex or drugs or lust or whatever is just so darn fun. Maybe if I could just make God understand how important it is to me". It just doesn't work like that and you're gonna make yourself crazy! Dedicate yourself to loving Jesus and say "what will be, will be" and follow where He leads you. He'll take you there!
So I should focus on that for now and the whole being gay thing later? How will he show me? Some kind of sign? How am I meant to know what it is, or where to look? I mean I've been trying to pray and stuff quite a bit and I have asked this, but I don't feel like I'm getting any kind of response..I don't really feel any different afterwards.

Revinius
Apr 12th 2008, 05:22 AM
Really, cause I've been trying but at times it doesn't feel much like that :( It's all very overwhelming and confusing to get my head around...I just often feel like, I don't know what to do with all this

Keep asking questions, keep challenging your old notions and most of all ask him in. Some, like CS Lewis are pulled kicking and screaming to God, some pursue him for years until he has planned for them to know him. His breaking you down can take time i would warrant but it does happen. He desires to be in relationship with all his creations and take it from me, he is good! :bounce:

So my advice is pray, pray and.....keep praying. If you recognise yourself as desolate without God then your in the right place. When i look around me every day i only confirm this notion. :pray:



Ok that makes sense...I do have another question though, a little bit unrelated. If Jesus was God, then why did he pray? Who exactly was he praying to if he was God?


God has always been in perfect communion with himself and as such he talks to himself. Not in some human skizophrenic sense but as he is. Thats why desires relationship with us also as he is a relational being. So God, Jesus and Spirit have been in loving relationship with themselves for eternity. Thats what made the cross such a massive event. It was a temporary rending of the son from the Trinity. Something akin to God cutting a chunk of his 'brain' and several body parts off.

lwfc
Apr 14th 2008, 09:43 PM
Keep asking questions, keep challenging your old notions and most of all ask him in. Some, like CS Lewis are pulled kicking and screaming to God, some pursue him for years until he has planned for them to know him. His breaking you down can take time i would warrant but it does happen. He desires to be in relationship with all his creations and take it from me, he is good! :bounce:

So my advice is pray, pray and.....keep praying. If you recognise yourself as desolate without God then your in the right place. When i look around me every day i only confirm this notion. :pray:
When I pray I often feel like I'm just saying the same thing every time. Like I have nothing new to say each time, does that matter? I mean wouldn't the repetitiveness of it annoy him? I find knowing what to actually say really hard! Probably every couple of days or something I try praying but I don't know what to say to him. I know what kinds of things I think about but then when it comes to it I don't know how to actually say it.

I find the whole relationship with him thing confusing too...cause sometimes when I pray I feel a bit like there's some kind of..connection there, but most of the time I don't really. I feel a bit kind of..peaceful afterwards, but I feel weird when I actually am praying, as if it's just not working. How do you get a relationship with him? How do you like, know if he is responding to what you're praying for? Cause although I keep praying for him to help me in all of this and working this stuff out, I'm still just as confused. Although, I suppose I do still keep coming back here and looking for answers, so is that how he is answering it? By getting me to do these things?

Son_kissed
Apr 15th 2008, 12:17 AM
When I pray I often feel like I'm just saying the same thing every time. Like I have nothing new to say each time, does that matter? I mean wouldn't the repetitiveness of it annoy him? I find knowing what to actually say really hard! Probably every couple of days or something I try praying but I don't know what to say to him. I know what kinds of things I think about but then when it comes to it I don't know how to actually say it.

I think we all have a difficult time with prayer for a while. Don't worry, He knows what you want to say. If you want, when praying for the things you've prayed for before, you can even just say, "Here I am again, asking the same thing I've been asking before... you know what I need, the questions I have, and if you're really out there, and you're who people say you are, I know you'll answer me." And He will.

Sometimes it helps me to write out my thoughts- I can clarify them better - and then I can say it more clearly, too.


I find the whole relationship with him thing confusing too...cause sometimes when I pray I feel a bit like there's some kind of..connection there, but most of the time I don't really. I feel a bit kind of..peaceful afterwards, but I feel weird when I actually am praying, as if it's just not working. How do you get a relationship with him? How do you like, know if he is responding to what you're praying for? Cause although I keep praying for him to help me in all of this and working this stuff out, I'm still just as confused. Although, I suppose I do still keep coming back here and looking for answers, so is that how he is answering it? By getting me to do these things?

That's probably one way He's answering. If you continure seeking Him, He answers in lots of different ways. I was pretty doubtful for a long time, but I was genuinely looking for the truth. He gave me some pretty clear evidence of it in my seeking, and that's what it took for me. Its not the same for everyone. But, again, its because I was genuinely seeking the truth and willing to embrace it. At some point you have to make the decision to repent and believe and start walking in faith. Once you do, and you're walking in His will, you'll begin to really see Him working in your life. He'll test your faith, and as you continue to submit to His will, He'll make Himself even more evident in your life. It becomes easier and easier to really relate to Him on a personal level as you see just how involved in your life He is. It's not always a walk in the park. And when we're not in His will, the evidence of Him working in our life isn't going to be there. Thats when you know you need to change something. :)

Anyway, have you ever read The Hiding Place? It's a wonderfully, inspiring, true story of God at work in the life of Corrie Ten Boom and her family who assisted in the Dutch underground and spent the remainder of the war in concentration camps after being caught. I'd highly recommend reading it. Great book.

And of course reading the Bible helps us learn who He is. Read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Then read them again. Get to know Jesus. Then read "the rest of the story."

Revinius
Apr 15th 2008, 05:30 AM
When I pray I often feel like I'm just saying the same thing every time. Like I have nothing new to say each time, does that matter? I mean wouldn't the repetitiveness of it annoy him? I find knowing what to actually say really hard! Probably every couple of days or something I try praying but I don't know what to say to him. I know what kinds of things I think about but then when it comes to it I don't know how to actually say it.

God is infinately patient. Have a flick through Exodus and you will see how God is patient. The israelites just dont get it and i would have lost my rag with them long ago :P. When you pray it doesnt have to be a formal thing, although that can help. Pray as you would talk with your best friend, tell God everything, tell him how your day went and how you desire him. Tell him your hopes and dreams and ask him to become a part of them.

A preacher whose name eludes me once said that true discipline is praying till you pray honestly and for real. Prayer shouldnt be hollow but meaningful. Honestly approach God in prayer as you would someone you love and cherish more than anything else, because thats who he is. The alpha and omega, beginning and the end. Look around you, he made and is responsible for making it live. It still staggers me at how a speck such as me could have the priveledge to be allowed to commune with that.


I find the whole relationship with him thing confusing too...cause sometimes when I pray I feel a bit like there's some kind of..connection there, but most of the time I don't really. I feel a bit kind of..peaceful afterwards, but I feel weird when I actually am praying, as if it's just not working. How do you get a relationship with him? How do you like, know if he is responding to what you're praying for? Cause although I keep praying for him to help me in all of this and working this stuff out, I'm still just as confused. Although, I suppose I do still keep coming back here and looking for answers, so is that how he is answering it? By getting me to do these things?

We all go through high and low points, but what shines through the most is the knowledge that God is real and God will never break His Word. The spirit inside of you is only a fledgling, but it will grow, you need to feed it spiritual milk in the form of continuing in your journey in knowing God. I dont mean just knowledge of God, but truly knowing Him. It all takes a bit of trust/faith, you have to take yourself out of your comfort zone and hand him the reigns of your life. Its the hardest thing you will ever have to do but, as i and many will attest, its the most worthwhile thing you will ever do.

As i said, challenge you answers and preconceptions on life and everything. But more importantly than all this, spend time with God. Look at his creation, not in the context of it merely being 'stuff', but it being the result of his desire to be in communion with you. It was made with us in mind, with you in mind. Once you look at the world in such a new light you will start to understand what God is all about.

I hope this made sense, i am feeling somewhat emotional at the moment. Sharing personal experiences does that. :P

ImmenseDisciple
Apr 15th 2008, 05:23 PM
Hey lwfc. I'd personally suggest that you don't limit yourself to the more structured and focused sessions of prayer, and rather, whenever you find something weighing on your mind, wherever you are, bring it to God. You don't need to speak out loud or close your eyes or anything, just talk to Him in your head about it. He's more than happy with a conversational tone - he's just happy that you're talking to Him - and it may turn out to be in this kind of setting that you'll repeatedly find you can see how He's answering. I hope so :)

Try it out.

Gypsy
Apr 15th 2008, 08:16 PM
Did you ever have a close friend to whom you could talk for hours about anything to and then you or he/she move far away and although you try to keep in touch the relationship just drifts? You call them on the phone almost as a formality and have the same conversation each time - Hey, how are you? Good, how are you? Good, What's new? Nothing just working, you? Nothing . . .

There really is no relationship, just going through the motions of one. It sounds to me like that's what you're doing with God. God doesn't mind the same prayer over and over - He's cool like that, sometimes it means that it's something important that you have to work out and sometimes it means that it's just not His will that you get a pet monkey for your birthday - but do you feel as though your prayers are genuine or just going through the motions? What do you bring to him? Your hopes? fears? failures? gratitude? A "Thank you Father for this beautiful day" or "Jesus give me strength for this" is no less meaningful to Him than an eloquent production full of "thees and thous". Just don't sweat it. Let Him into your heart. Let Him twine Himself up with your thoughts and feelings and listen (not just with your ears) to what He is saying. Get used to doing that and then look back after a while and see if you can notice a difference. Was the day a little more beautiful because you gave credit to its artist? or were you a little stronger in dealing with a situation that you asked for His strength? I promise you that its real - you just don't know how to hear it yet.

God's Love lwfc, you'll be in my prayers tonight.

lwfc
May 4th 2008, 10:12 PM
I'm sorry that I haven't posted here for so long! I'm really busy, stressing about my exams that are coming up. And to be honest it's left me with not much time to come here or doing stuff like that. I did feel like I was perhaps getting close to God, but now lately I feel like I'm a lot further away again. I'm just very stressed, and I feel like it's..distracting me. My exams start in three weeks and I need two A's and a B to get into the university I want to go to and I haven't even begun revisining. I know that in the long run, God is much more important than my exams, but I need to get good grades, but I feel like I'm being really distracted by this and just need to forget about it for a while and focus on my exams for now. But that makes me feel really selfish! I mean, even though I haven't replied for ages, I read the replies to my last post ages ago. I keep coming on here, and am about to write a reply when I tell myself that I don't have to time to do it and I should be revising, so I don't post anyting. But then I just procrastinate and don't revise anyway, because I still have my mind on all of this, and I just don't know which I should be concentrating on, and as a result I'm sitting around, doing neither! Yeeaahh I'm a little confused right now. Should I just focus on my exams and then continue this once they're over? It's just that seems so self centered of me to do that :S

Revinius
May 4th 2008, 11:37 PM
I'm sorry that I haven't posted here for so long! I'm really busy, stressing about my exams that are coming up. And to be honest it's left me with not much time to come here or doing stuff like that. I did feel like I was perhaps getting close to God, but now lately I feel like I'm a lot further away again. I'm just very stressed, and I feel like it's..distracting me. My exams start in three weeks and I need two A's and a B to get into the university I want to go to and I haven't even begun revisining. I know that in the long run, God is much more important than my exams, but I need to get good grades, but I feel like I'm being really distracted by this and just need to forget about it for a while and focus on my exams for now. But that makes me feel really selfish! I mean, even though I haven't replied for ages, I read the replies to my last post ages ago. I keep coming on here, and am about to write a reply when I tell myself that I don't have to time to do it and I should be revising, so I don't post anyting. But then I just procrastinate and don't revise anyway, because I still have my mind on all of this, and I just don't know which I should be concentrating on, and as a result I'm sitting around, doing neither! Yeeaahh I'm a little confused right now. Should I just focus on my exams and then continue this once they're over? It's just that seems so self centered of me to do that :S

Do you think perhaps that this is distracting for a reason? What is university in the scope of eternity? You can always get in via bridging courses and what not anyway, but thats beside the point. You need to assess what is important in life, not by your standards but by Gods. Its a difficult thing to admit there is more to existance than ones hopes and dreams, everyone here will attest to that. Make yourself right with God and he will guide your life, be it to uni or anywhere he desires you to go. :)

lwfc
Jul 29th 2008, 10:00 PM
Hi, I've been away from this forum for quite some time. I thought instead of posting a new thread I would just add to this existing thread.

So, I had been trying to become a Christian but for wuite a while since I stopped posting on here I kind of gave up with the whole thing, focused on other things. Anyway recently I came to the realisation that that wasn't what I really wanted and I had been happier before when I had been seeking a way to be closer to God, but I still don't really know how to do it. I guess I should try reading the Bible right? I mean I've tried to start oraying again but I don't really know what to say. I mean before I'd been saying I'd stop doing all the things I'd been doing before, but since I've stopped trying to become a Christian I kinda started doing a whole lot of that stuff again, so it's kind of an empty promise??

I've still never been to a church or anything...I'd like to, but I'm still kinda scared of it. I feel weird about just turning up there? Should I ask one of my Christian friends if I could go with them to see what it's like or...? I dunno if that would help. I just still don't feel like I'm getting anywhere with all this :S

Sorry if this post doesn't make any sense, I'm pretty tired.

tango
Jul 29th 2008, 10:13 PM
Hi lwfc, good to see you back again.

If you start going to church you might find it very useful, you might find it confusing. There's nothing wrong with going along to see how you find it - you can go by yourself or ask a Christian friend to go with you if you prefer a little moral support. It can be daunting going to church for the first time, especially by yourself.

Whereabouts in London are you? There are so many churches in London of so many different denominations, if we know roughly where you are we might be able to suggest a church to try out (you can always send a PM or start a thread in Chat To The Moderators if you'd rather not give your specific location away in public).

The Bible is a great place to find out more about God. I'd suggest reading the book of Mark (the second book in the New Testament). Before you read, ask God to open your eyes and speak to you through his word. Then read it a couple of chapters at a time. If you sit and read right through in a single sitting you're likely to take in less of it. While you're reading, if you don't understand something take the time to read over it again. You can always ask in here what we think of something!

If you want to know more about prayer, there's a thread in the New In Christ forum that covers it. As a non-Christian you aren't allowed to post in the thread but you're welcome to read it. You can find it here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=133455)

lwfc
Jul 30th 2008, 12:02 AM
I'm in the north west of London. There's plenty of churches around, but all being different denominations and stuff, I don't know the difference and which is best to go to. I mean I understand the basics of the Christian faith, but I don't know the differences in what they believe. I know that the friend I would probably be most likely to ask is a Baptist, but the church that I would probably be most likely to go to as I did contact them before, is an Anglican church I think. I don't really understand the differences.

I know this probably sounds a bit stupid, but I'm also a bit embarassed about going because I haven't mentioned this to my mum and she just thinks that I'm an athiest. I know that's not really a big deal, but for some reason I feel embarassed about telling her where I'm going, as it would be weird that I'm up seeing as sunday mornings normally don't exist for me and I'm rarely up before midday! :P

I did read the book of Mark before I think, I read all of the gospels I think, but it was a while ago. Would you suggest I read them again?

calidog
Jul 30th 2008, 01:26 AM
The main reason I have never been a Christian is because I am gay..

I recognise that the Bible clearly says it is wrong, but I have generally always just accepted that it is who I am and I can't change it. I don't believe that I chose to be this way, but I also don't believe that anyone is born gay. But I have always really wished that I was straight because it would be much easier, and if I were to become a Christian then I couldn't be gay anyway right? But how could I possibly "make" myself straight? I didn't choose to be gay, so how could I choose to be straight? I don't want to lie to myself about how I feel, and I can't help the fact that I have feelings for girls and not for guys (though, I have only actually ever had one male friend in my whole life).

It doesn't help that for the past year and a half I have had a massive crush on a good friend of mine who is a Christian, and it makes me worry that maybe the only reason I've thought about becoming a Christian and started thinking I believe in God, etc, is because of her...which would clearly not be a good reason to do so. The attraction I have to her is most of the time not sexual though, I just want to be with her all the time and she's always on my mind...I'm always happy when I'm talking to her and then I get depressed as soon as she's not around. I've toyed with the idea of telling her, but I don't think it would be a good idea as I don't want to mess up our friendship.

I've always wished I was straight, way before I started thinking about religion and believed that there was nothing wrong with being gay, because I just wanted to have a "normal" life, get married and have kids etc. But I don't want to lie to myself and deny who I really have feelings for. I really wish I could have feelings for a guy but it just doesn't seem that likely to me. I don't really know what to do about it all...:giveup:
I have'nt read through all of these but can't help but respond.
Nothing can separate you from becoming a christian, gay or otherwise. It is Christ Himself Who will comform you into His image.

BroRog
Jul 30th 2008, 06:07 AM
Should I ask one of my Christian friends if I could go with them to see what it's like or...?

That's what I did. I went to see what it was like. But I didn't become a Christian that way. I became a Christian by reading the New Testament and thinking about what I read with an open mind -- neither for nor against. After that I watched Billy Graham on TV. After his sermon, I went into my bedroom and prayed to the angels, that if they wouldn't mind, please ask God to make himself real to me.

He did. Sorry, I can't remember how he did it. But that's how I became a Christian. After that, I went to the beach and got baptized. (I was living in Hawaii then.)

Every story is different. I don't expect you will come into the kingdom by the same door as I went through.

tango
Jul 30th 2008, 06:33 AM
I'm in the north west of London. There's plenty of churches around, but all being different denominations and stuff, I don't know the difference and which is best to go to. I mean I understand the basics of the Christian faith, but I don't know the differences in what they believe. I know that the friend I would probably be most likely to ask is a Baptist, but the church that I would probably be most likely to go to as I did contact them before, is an Anglican church I think. I don't really understand the differences.


As long as the church you're going to is a Christian church you should be OK. You may see things like spiritualist churches, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and so on. These are not the same as Christian churches, so avoid them.

Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists etc all have slightly different ways of doing things, but what's important is they all believe that Jesus died for us, as a sacrifice for our sins, and was raised from the dead. Which one is best for you is as much a matter of opinion as of fact, as long as the church teaches from the Bible you'll be fine.



I know this probably sounds a bit stupid, but I'm also a bit embarassed about going because I haven't mentioned this to my mum and she just thinks that I'm an athiest. I know that's not really a big deal, but for some reason I feel embarassed about telling her where I'm going, as it would be weird that I'm up seeing as sunday mornings normally don't exist for me and I'm rarely up before midday! :P


When I first went to church I went to the evening service, for that very reason! Even I can manage to get up by 6:30pm :)



I did read the book of Mark before I think, I read all of the gospels I think, but it was a while ago. Would you suggest I read them again?

If it's been a while it wouldn't hurt to read them again, just to refresh your memory of just who Jesus was, and just what he did while he walked the earth.

givemegrace
Jul 30th 2008, 03:49 PM
Hi Iwfc, i have not read all posts, but what i have read, i totally admire your honesty, it is weird going to church initially i felt that way too, i thought everyone was nuts and my purpose was to prove them all wrong.... boy was i wrong, for me it has been quite a journey, it is unique for everyone, i asked loads and loads and loads of questions till i came to a place that it just felt right to me, that Jesus came and died for my sin and the sin of the world. I want to say to you to pray to God, just as you would talk to a mate, just be real, God knows your heart. i am really excited for you as it is such an awesome experience when you first come to know God. God Bless you, you are a blessing to this board..:hug:

BibleBarb
Jul 30th 2008, 04:39 PM
Hiya, my name is Barb and I've read some of your posts. I've been where you are and I can definately relate. Let me just tell you my story and you can take it from there if it helps.

I was married at age 18 to a very abusive man. 4 children later I decided that enough was enough and I got a divorce. Soon after my divorce I started having attractions to other women and eventually began engaging in relationships. This went on for many years. I also ended up being involved with alcohol to a severe degree and my life as I called it was a nightmare. One day when I was at work on a particularly stressing shift, one of my co-workers was just as calm as she could be and I jokingly asked her what drug she was on because nobody could be that calm in the craziness that was happening. She replied that she was high on The Holy Spirit and of course I asked her to explain this to me and she did. I asked her to take me to church with her that Sunday and she agreed. It took a few weeks of me attending church to fully understand what Christianity and Salvation were all about, but I did get the message, The Lord opened my mind and my heart to his word. I spoke to the Pastor ( This was by the way a Baptist church) and he explained God's plan of salvation to me and that very day I became a child of God. This was 7 yrs ago and my life has changed dramatically. The first thing I noticed was I didn't crave alcohol anymore. God delivered me from it instantly. Over a span of about a few months I started having difficulty with my sexuality because although I wasn't in a live in relationship, I was still in a relationship and through scriptures and sermons I realized that this was wrong in the eyes of God. I prayed so hard about the situation and realized that my concern was not for me, but for my partner whom I really loved and didn't want to hurt. But I loved God more and eventually made the decision to break off the relationship. This didn't go well at first, but as the years went by, my ex-partner and I have been able to have a friendship and my prayer is for her to someday be saved and be released from the lifestyle even though to my knowledge shes not actively involved, I know she is still gay. It was hard at first, I still had feelings, but through prayer God took those feelings from me. Everyone is different, but one thing I do know is that God is no respecter of persons, what he does for one, he will do for another if it is within his will. And somethings take time. I'm still smoking cigarettes and still praying on that. But I know God will deliver me from this too. What I'm saying to you is that you don't have to wait until you have a change in your lifestyle to come to God, Come to God first and he will help you change your lifestyle. Go to church with one of your friends, learn about God's word. I assure you that the reason you are having these thoughts is because God is tugging at your heart. He wants you to come to him as you are. Go to him as you are and all your questions will be answered in a way that only he can answer. I reamained in the gay lifestyle almost a year after I became a Christian. We grow in God's word minute by minute, but if we don't have God's word, we don't grow at all. If you are sincere in seeking him, he will help you through everything, just trust in him now. When Jesus walked the earth, he had many followers who were sinners, but once they got to know him, made the decision to follow him and repent of whatever it was they were doing. You can become a Christian right now this minute despite your sins. That is why Christ suffered and died for us, for forgiveness of sins. Talk to your Christian friends and ask them to pray with you. Please don't wait to do this, do it now!.....................God Bless You................Barb

lwfc
Aug 1st 2008, 01:37 AM
As long as the church you're going to is a Christian church you should be OK. You may see things like spiritualist churches, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and so on. These are not the same as Christian churches, so avoid them.
What is the difference with these churches then? Why do you say to avoid them?


Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists etc all have slightly different ways of doing things, but what's important is they all believe that Jesus died for us, as a sacrifice for our sins, and was raised from the dead. Which one is best for you is as much a matter of opinion as of fact, as long as the church teaches from the Bible you'll be fine.
How will I know which I should go to then? Or should I not worry too much about the type of church I go to? As I don't really know what the slightly different things the denominations believe are, I don't know which I agree with so I don't know which I would choose. I suppose it doesn't really matter too much does it? I don't know when I will go anyway, as the friend I was going to ask is annoying unreliable in replying to text messages :lol: and I don't know how to ask her.


If it's been a while it wouldn't hurt to read them again, just to refresh your memory of just who Jesus was, and just what he did while he walked the earth.
I will do. What books are best to read after the gospels?


Hiya, my name is Barb and I've read some of your posts. I've been where you are and I can definately relate. Let me just tell you my story and you can take it from there if it helps.
Hey, thank you for sharing your story with me :)
I don't know that I would describe myself as in the "gay lifestyle" as you call it though, because I haven't been in a realationship for a long time anyway, so while I suppose I am not technically sinning, it still leaves me kinda confused. As you say you started feeling attracted to women after you got divorced, I assume you did not always feel attracted to girls? I've liked girls for as long as I remember, so it's hard for me to imagine ever not being attracted to them..and I kind of feel like a fake if I said I was a Christian whilst I still am

tango
Aug 1st 2008, 11:20 AM
What is the difference with these churches then? Why do you say to avoid them?


Spiritualist churches (also called spiritist churches) are nothing to do with the Christian church at all. The Latter Day Saints also have very little to do with the regular Protestant church.



How will I know which I should go to then? Or should I not worry too much about the type of church I go to? As I don't really know what the slightly different things the denominations believe are, I don't know which I agree with so I don't know which I would choose. I suppose it doesn't really matter too much does it? I don't know when I will go anyway, as the friend I was going to ask is annoying unreliable in replying to text messages :lol: and I don't know how to ask her.
As long as you are going to a Christian church, where the Bible is taught and Jesus is the centre of the worship you'll be OK. In terms of which Christian denomination you're most comfortable with, that's a matter for you to decide once you've had chance to try a couple out. If a church doesn't teach from the Bible and doesn't believe in salvation by grace through the sacrifice of Jesus then you'd be well advised to look for another church.



I will do. What books are best to read after the gospels?
Probably the book of Acts, then some of the epistles. The epistles are the letters that form most of the New Testament. Some are very short, so they look like easy reading, but a lot of them carry spiritual depth far greater than you might expect given their length!



I've liked girls for as long as I remember, so it's hard for me to imagine ever not being attracted to them..and I kind of feel like a fake if I said I was a Christian whilst I still am

That's something you can work through - remember that being tempted is not a sin, the sin is when you act on the temptation. If you were living in an ongoing gay relationship that would be a problem, but having desires is different to acting on them. If we all waited until we'd eliminated sin before professing Christ as our Saviour and attending church, then every church in the land would be empty.

Revinius
Aug 2nd 2008, 07:08 AM
Read Romans, that book is awesome, giving a great summary on the Christian ethos.

Tanya~
Aug 2nd 2008, 06:57 PM
Ephesians is excellent to learn the "how to" of being a Christian. If Romans seems a bit daunting, Ephesians is a good start.

ServantofTruth
Aug 2nd 2008, 08:17 PM
Surely Matthew's gospel would be even better? :)




BIG SofTy Soft outside, bible core. :spin:

lwfc
Aug 2nd 2008, 09:53 PM
Spiritualist churches (also called spiritist churches) are nothing to do with the Christian church at all. The Latter Day Saints also have very little to do with the regular Protestant church.
So...what do they teach then?


As long as you are going to a Christian church, where the Bible is taught and Jesus is the centre of the worship you'll be OK. In terms of which Christian denomination you're most comfortable with, that's a matter for you to decide once you've had chance to try a couple out. If a church doesn't teach from the Bible and doesn't believe in salvation by grace through the sacrifice of Jesus then you'd be well advised to look for another church.
Ok, well I have looked up churches near me, and just down the road I have found 4 churches..a methodist church, anglican, church of england, and a united reformed church. I don't really know what that means :lol: Should I just pick one and see? I'm also moving away to university next month so I'll probably find one, then move and have to do that again haha.



Surely Matthew's gospel would be even better? :)
I was asking about after the gospels :)

DoctorZOomZoOm
Aug 2nd 2008, 11:12 PM
I was like you about 10 years ago. I wasn't really a Christian when I started going, I was really more of a Universalist and I was into the occult. I found myself wanting to do more things and be around new people. I decided one day since I thought all religions are true I would put it to the test. I started going to an Episcopal church. Lucky me, it was a conservative one...somewhat of a rarity for that denomination.

I went by myself and I didn't know anybody. Most of them were much older than me, but I loved it. I wound up getting the Holy Spirit and losing the occult for good. I started serving in Church as a Lay Eucharist minister and Lay reader. It was awsome! Those were some of the best years of my life. Later on I got married in that very church and my wife and daughter were baptised there. Going to church really changed my life for the better. Every Sunday I'd leave church refreshed, with my spiritual batteries charged.

I would encourage you to go, and don't be afraid to shop around. You might have to go to several before you find a one that's a good fit.

markinro
Aug 3rd 2008, 04:27 PM
So...what do they teach then?


Ok, well I have looked up churches near me, and just down the road I have found 4 churches..a methodist church, anglican, church of england, and a united reformed church. I don't really know what that means :lol: Should I just pick one and see? I'm also moving away to university next month so I'll probably find one, then move and have to do that again haha.



I was asking about after the gospels :)

Most churches here - and I would think its the same in the UK - have a brochure listing their core beliefs along with a scripture to back it up. Here is what we list at our church...

We believe the Bible to be divinely inspired, an all sufficient guide for salvation and holy living, and the infallible authoritative Word of God. (II Timothy 3:16)

We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (I John 5:6-8)

We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal return in the power and glory. (I Corinthians 15:3-4, I Peter 2:18-24, and John 3:16)

We believe that for salvation of lost and sinful man, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential. (Romans 3:21-30, and Galatians 4:4-7)

We believe that the new birth makes one a member of the Church Body. (Acts 2:47)

We believe in the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as a definite experience subsequent to salvation with the normative evidence of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance and empowerment for ministry. (Acts 1:8, Acts 2:4, Acts 10:44-46, and Acts 19:6)

We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; that they are saved unto the resurrection of life; and that they are lost unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:24, 28 and 29)

We believe that the physical healing is provided for in the atonement, and is the privilege of all believers. (Isaiah 53:4, Matthew 8:16-17, Mark 16:18, James 5:14-15, and I Peter 2:24)

We believe in the imminent return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (John 14:3, I Thessalonians 4:13-18, and Revelation 22:20)

ServantofTruth
Aug 3rd 2008, 04:42 PM
So...what do they teach then?


Ok, well I have looked up churches near me, and just down the road I have found 4 churches..a methodist church, anglican, church of england, and a united reformed church. I don't really know what that means :lol: Should I just pick one and see? I'm also moving away to university next month so I'll probably find one, then move and have to do that again haha.



I was asking about after the gospels :)


Anglican and Church of England are the same thing and the denomination i know best. They are catholic with a small 'c', NOT Roman Catholic - though many both in the ministry and the congregation would love to be RC, consider themselves under the Pope/ Vatican.

United Reform is like Baptist, very close in the UK, not sure about further afield, like the USA?

Methodist - well i went to one of those a couple of weeks ago, for singing not worship. I'll let those with more knowledge explain.


BIG SofTy Soft outside, bible core! :pp

CoffeeCat
Aug 3rd 2008, 06:56 PM
Hello, Laura, from another Laura. :)

I just wanted to say that I feel for you, because I understand what you're going through. I stated in a much earlier thread that I wouldn't bring this up on the boards, but I feel the need to, again. Through all of my teen years, I struggled with bisexuality. It wasn't something I could help, believe me.... the feelings were constant. I felt, a lot of the time, like God wouldn't EVER take me the way I was, that there was no way I was good enough, that as hard as I TRIED to "be a Christian", I was failing. And then there was another factor.... exactly like you, I lived with my mom, my parents were divorced and I didn't see my dad often.. and most of my family wasn't a part of a religious belief to any degree. Some were and still are atheists. My mom, while loving and a dear friend of mine, wasn't someone I could talk to as a teenager about the bisexual feelings OR the fact that I wanted to start trying to believe in SOMETHING. Both were awkward topics, and the few times I tried to discuss them, I got the pat answer "you're young, you're confused, you don't know what you want, so there's no point discussing it." That hurt, so I didn't discuss it.

I came to Christ in university. I wasn't home much, and by then I'd given up mostly on "trying to be a Christian" because my efforts kept falling flat. I'd been frustrated and discouraged... and I was sitting in a history class one day when class let out, and I heard bells chiming. I wandered down the hall, and asked someone where the bells were coming from. They told me 'the chapel'. It was just a little Anglican chapel, meant for staff and students, but I walked in and found more peace that day than I knew.

Giving my life to God was NOT easy, and five years or so later, it is STILL not easy. But I learned some stuff. I don't have to try so hard all on my own. It's not a matter of trying to be good enough for God. It's a matter of saying I know I can't be good enough, so I need Christ's forgiveness and grace. It's not a matter of fighting a hard battle (homosexuality or bisexuality) all on your own. When you become Christian, God takes you as you are... but He loves you so much that He refuses to LEAVE you that way. :)

That's what I found, to my surprise and my joy, as I progressed slowly in my faith. God helped me by giving me a new focus. My desire was less and less on the confusion and the problem I'd struggled with for so long (6 years or so, anyway) and more and more on Him. I was also in a relationship with a guy, and while in that relationship, God DID help me to just focus on that guy and on nobody else.... and although I am not in that relationship now, I am grateful to God for helping me by placing some consistency in my life for nearly four years.

I am finding now, that as a single Christian again, I'm needing to guard my heart, my mind and my thoughts carefully. I'm not without temptations, even now. Sometimes God DOES bless us by taking urges completely away... and sometimes He just gives us the strength and grace to bear them. It seems to me that He's given me the latter. The last few weeks to a month have been hard on me both because I've been upset emotionally and tired physically, but also because I feel old attacks coming back at me that I thought were gone.

What I am learning right now is something that might help you, and that's that God will give us the grace and strength to get through anything if we just lean on Him. He'll also give us the way and the opportunity in our lives to NOT sin. With me, for instance, He's given me a wonderful chance to be single and to serve Him as a single woman. And I am delighted with that, because I can get closer to Him AND not be concerned with falling into a trap and falling into the kind of sin I KNOW He wants me to avoid.

As for actually becoming Christian..... you can't 'try to be a Christian' and eventually make it to being one. It isn't destination you eventually reach when you've tried hard enough. It's a journey you take, and take all of your life... and more often than not, you START that journey not knowing where you're going. You'll have lots of questions. Some people think that they need to have all their questions answered before they come to Christ. Nope. I'm still asking them and I came to Christ over 4 years ago. Reading the Bible and praying and attending church didn't come naturally to me either, because I was either VERY rusty at doing those, or I was unfamiliar with them...

... but you know how, when you start a new project, you're hesitant at first? But the more you do it, the more you learn about it, the more you get used to it and then grow confident in it? That's how faith was for me. I've struggled with secular humanism all my life... it's always been one of my top two struggles, that and feelings of bisexuality. So believe me, I came to God a skeptic, and I put my faith in Jesus as a skeptic willing to open my heart just a LITTLE and have faith the size of a mustard seed.... and God saw my heart was open just a little bit, and that little bit was all He needed to start His work in my life. I still wavered back and forth between faith and non-belief for a looooong time..... but I thank God He's so patient. Some people start believing in Christ and ZOOM, they're off. And.... wow. Amazing, for them. But that wasn't and isn't me. Me, I'm stubborn, and hesitant, and I take longer to do anything. I'm what I call "God's work in progress". But really.... aren't we all? Eventually, I DID settle into my faith, and I've been consistently in it, living with it and my questions for a good while now. I'm learning to love Christ more and more every day. I got involved with a church and help out with the youth there, because I've been blessed with the gift of a heart for young people who are struggling.... I help 12-13 year old girls there, mostly because that age was without a doubt the WORST time of MY life, so I believe they need people in their corner. But it's taken a LOT of God's grace and God's constant help, to get me to here... and it'll take more grace and help to move me through the rest of my life.

God bless you. Please don't be afraid to take that step out in faith. If you have questions, you can ask them after you decide to let Jesus in, and that's okay. If you have objections, talk to us about them but don't let them get in the way of giving God a chance to show you what He can do to your heart. If you're struggling with feelings that are REALLY hard to get rid of, know that either God will help you get rid of them, or God will help you learn to live with them.... but above all, God will sustain you whether or NOT you have them.

:hug: Please PM me anytime to talk. I feel a kinship with you I can't explain, so I hope that what I shared here helped a little.

tango
Aug 3rd 2008, 09:41 PM
So...what do they teach then?

Spiritists churches hold seances, which are expressly forbidden in the Bible. I'm not entirely sure exactly what the Latter Day Saints believe in, beyond the fact that they don't seem to regard the Bible as the inspired word of God. I spoke to one of their members some years ago and even he couldn't give me very many clear answers as to what they believed in.



Ok, well I have looked up churches near me, and just down the road I have found 4 churches..a methodist church, anglican, church of england, and a united reformed church. I don't really know what that means :lol: Should I just pick one and see? I'm also moving away to university next month so I'll probably find one, then move and have to do that again haha.


Any of those should be fine, just make sure they teach from the Bible and put Jesus at the centre of the worship. As long as they do that, and they welcome you, you should be OK there.

Where are you going to university? There may be some people who can recommend a good church to try.

lwfc
Aug 3rd 2008, 10:50 PM
I was like you about 10 years ago. I wasn't really a Christian when I started going, I was really more of a Universalist and I was into the occult. I found myself wanting to do more things and be around new people. I decided one day since I thought all religions are true I would put it to the test. I started going to an Episcopal church. Lucky me, it was a conservative one...somewhat of a rarity for that denomination.
What does an Episcopal church believe? I've never even heard of that denomination :blush: And what is the difference with a church that is conservative?


Most churches here - and I would think its the same in the UK - have a brochure listing their core beliefs along with a scripture to back it up. Here is what we list at our church...
Thanks. I will have a look around for these then :)


Anglican and Church of England are the same thing and the denomination i know best. They are catholic with a small 'c', NOT Roman Catholic - though many both in the ministry and the congregation would love to be RC, consider themselves under the Pope/ Vatican.

United Reform is like Baptist, very close in the UK, not sure about further afield, like the USA?

Methodist - well i went to one of those a couple of weeks ago, for singing not worship. I'll let those with more knowledge explain.
Hmm, from your description I think I may try either the United Reform one or the Methodist one first :)


exactly like you, I lived with my mom, my parents were divorced and I didn't see my dad often.. and most of my family wasn't a part of a religious belief to any degree. Some were and still are atheists. My mom, while loving and a dear friend of mine, wasn't someone I could talk to as a teenager about the bisexual feelings OR the fact that I wanted to start trying to believe in SOMETHING. Both were awkward topics, and the few times I tried to discuss them, I got the pat answer "you're young, you're confused, you don't know what you want, so there's no point discussing it." That hurt, so I didn't discuss it.
That sounds like a very similar situation to mine. While I'm close my mum, I do find it hard to discuss serious topics with her. When I first tried to tell her that I was gay, after I had worked up the courage for a long time, she just told be "no you're not, you're too young to know", and since I have given up trying to discuss things with her. Also, she knows that I was an athiest before, so when I tell her this I just think she'll decide I'm going through some kind of phase again..


God bless you. Please don't be afraid to take that step out in faith. If you have questions, you can ask them after you decide to let Jesus in, and that's okay. If you have objections, talk to us about them but don't let them get in the way of giving God a chance to show you what He can do to your heart. If you're struggling with feelings that are REALLY hard to get rid of, know that either God will help you get rid of them, or God will help you learn to live with them.... but above all, God will sustain you whether or NOT you have them.

:hug: Please PM me anytime to talk. I feel a kinship with you I can't explain, so I hope that what I shared here helped a little.
Thanks very much for sharing your story with me :) You sound similar to me and I hope that the same can happen for me as has for you :)


Where are you going to university? There may be some people who can recommend a good church to try.
Well, it depends on my results, which I get in 10 days (eek), but, if all goes well, Aston university (in Birmingham), and if not so well, then the university of Surrey, which is in Guildford.

ServantofTruth
Aug 3rd 2008, 11:05 PM
A lot of universities have christian groups/ organisations. Would you consider joining if the one you go to has one? Like a church this would be a loving group of spirit filled believers to study the bible with and do 'safe' activities with a trust worthy group of friends - who put you needs before their own.

Also obviously they could go to church with you. :pp

When we are considering the path of faith, following Jesus Christ, it can be differcult at first. Some will make huge changes immediatly, others more slowly but surely. It never hurts to not only have the Holy Spirit to guide, but also someone who knows the practical 'ropes' as well.

Accepting Jesus as our personal Saviour, confessing our sins at the foot of his cross, and accepting bible truth can be a lot all at once. But many are here waiting to accept you into our family, the family of Jesus Christ. I will be praying hard for you and all genuine seekers tonight and yes this may be one of those rare times when i get down on my knees, put hands together and close my eyes. May his Will, not ours be done tonight and always.



BIG SofTy Salvation, the ONLY results. :saint:

lwfc
Aug 3rd 2008, 11:27 PM
A lot of universities have christian groups/ organisations. Would you consider joining if the one you go to has one? Like a church this would be a loving group of spirit filled believers to study the bible with and do 'safe' activities with a trust worthy group of friends - who put you needs before their own.

Also obviously they could go to church with you. :pp
Yes I probably will think of joining it. I have actually already looked on the student union website for Aston to find if they have one. It looks like they do, but there isn't a whole lot of information on the website.


I will be praying hard for you and all genuine seekers tonight and [B]yes this may be one of those rare times when i get down on my knees, put hands together and close my eyes.
Thanks a lot :)

tango
Aug 3rd 2008, 11:34 PM
You may well find that there is a university-wide Christian Union, and also a smaller Christian Union within individual halls of residence.

It's also possible that there will be other societies that are more denomination-specific, such as the Anglican Society, Baptist Society, Methodist Society and so on. Your best bet is probably to go to the main Christian Union first of all.

You'll probably also find that all the local churches have some kind of welcoming function for new students where they invite you to a service and feed you afterwards. During the first few weeks of the academic year I frequently left a church with as much food as I could carry, having had to decline invitations to take even more with me.

lwfc
Aug 3rd 2008, 11:47 PM
You may well find that there is a university-wide Christian Union, and also a smaller Christian Union within individual halls of residence.

It's also possible that there will be other societies that are more denomination-specific, such as the Anglican Society, Baptist Society, Methodist Society and so on. Your best bet is probably to go to the main Christian Union first of all.
Aston is not as large a university as some others, I think they said there are 7,000 students in total, so I don't know that there will be more than just a main Christian Union? But I think I will join that anyway. And to think a while back I was probably set on joining the LGBT society when I got to university..


You'll probably also find that all the local churches have some kind of welcoming function for new students where they invite you to a service and feed you afterwards. During the first few weeks of the academic year I frequently left a church with as much food as I could carry, having had to decline invitations to take even more with me.
Haha...sounds like a good way to eat on a student's budget! :P

RoadWarrior
Aug 4th 2008, 12:08 AM
...
While I'm close my mum, I do find it hard to discuss serious topics with her. When I first tried to tell her that I was gay, after I had worked up the courage for a long time, she just told be "no you're not, you're too young to know", and since I have given up trying to discuss things with her. Also, she knows that I was an athiest before, so when I tell her this I just think she'll decide I'm going through some kind of phase again..


So what do YOU think? Is it a phase, or is something very real happening for you now?

tango
Aug 4th 2008, 06:56 AM
Haha...sounds like a good way to eat on a student's budget! :P

It certainly made the budget stretch a little further :)

One other thought, people at the Christian Union will also have a good idea of which churches are good and which are less good, which might be helpful.

lwfc
Aug 5th 2008, 02:16 PM
So what do YOU think? Is it a phase, or is something very real happening for you now?
No, I don't think it's a phase. But to be honest, I have had a few "phases" before, so I imagine it's possible she may see this as a phase too..


It certainly made the budget stretch a little further :)

One other thought, people at the Christian Union will also have a good idea of which churches are good and which are less good, which might be helpful.
Yeah. That would be good. First thing I have to do is to actually get in haha!