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covenant mom
Mar 23rd 2008, 05:49 PM
This is what I'm seeing when studying Rev ch 6. What do you guys think?





I declare the end from the beginning, and from long ago what is not yet done, saying: My plan will take place, and I will do all My will


]Isaiah 46:10 (http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vd3d3LmJpYmxlZ2F0ZXdheS5jb20vcGFzc2FnZS 8/Ym9va19pZD0yOSZhbXA7Y2hhcHRlcj00NiZhbXA7dmVyc2U9MT AmYW1wO3ZlcnNpb249NzcmYW1wO2NvbnRleHQ9dmVyc2U=)


Revelation 6 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)



The seals literally span the entire 7 year tribulation. Seal one kicks off the tribulation & things are wrapped up in seal 7 when there is silence in heaven b/c everyone has left & come to earth to set up the Millenial kingdom. In Matt we see Jesus explaining these days that parallel the first 5 seals, here: Matt 24:3-22 "3 While He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached Him privately and said, "Tell us, when will these things happen? And what is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?" 4 Then Jesus replied to them: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ’I am the Messiah,’ and they will deceive many. 6 You are going to hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, because these things must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these events are the beginning of birth pains. Persecutions Predicted 9 "Then they will hand you over for persecution, and they will kill you. You will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 Then many will take offense, betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 Because lawlessness will multiply, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be delivered. 14 This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed in all the world as a testimony to all nations. (See Rev 14:9) And then the end will come. The Great Tribulation 15 "So when you see the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place" (let the reader understand ), 16 "then those in Judea must flee to the mountains! 17 A man on the housetop must not come down to get things out of his house. 18 And a man in the field must not go back to get his clothes. 19 Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days! 20 Pray that your escape may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For at that time there will be great tribulation, the kind that hasn’t taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again! 22 Unless those days were limited, no one would survive. But those days will be limited because of the elect.



The First Seal on the Scroll ~ Anti-Christ



1 Then I saw the Lamb open one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2 I looked, and there was a white horse. The horseman on it had a bow; a crown was given to him, and he went out as a victor to conquer.




The Second Seal ~ War & no peace



3 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" 4 Then another horse went out, a fiery red one, and its horseman was empowered to take peace from the earth, so that people would slaughter one another. And a large sword was given to him.




The Third Seal ~ Famine/Food shortages/High food prices

5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" And I looked, and there was a black horse. The horseman on it had a balance scale in his hand. 6 Then I heard something like a voice among the four living creatures say, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius—but do not harm the olive oil and the wine."




The Fourth Seal ~ ¼ earth under Death’s authority & killed via war/famine/plague/disease



7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8 And I looked, and there was a pale green horse. The horseman on it was named Death, and Hades was following after him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill by the sword, by famine, by plague, and by the wild animals of the earth.




The Fifth Seal ~ Christian Martyrs

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of God’s word and the testimony they had. 10 They cried out with a loud voice: "O Lord, holy and true, how long until You judge and avenge our blood from those who live on the earth?" 11 So a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer until [the number of] their fellow slaves and their brothers, who were going to be killed just as they had been, would be completed.



The sixth seal is showing the celestial signs that occur immediately AFTER the tribulation & prior to the DOTL This is also tied in with the 2nd coming of Jesus, our blessed Hope! See Matt 24:29- 31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days: The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the celestial powers will be shaken. 30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the peoples of the earth will mourn; and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."



The Sixth Seal ~ Celestial signs immediately after tribulation which precede DOTL that begins after Christ’s 2nd coming that occurs now. This is also when the rapture would take place b/c it is closely tied to the 2nd coming.



12 Then I saw Him open the sixth seal. A violent earthquake occurred; the sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair; the entire moon became like blood; 13 the stars of heaven fell to the earth as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a high wind; 14 the sky separated like a scroll being rolled up; and every mountain and island was moved from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the military commanders, the rich, the powerful, and every slave and free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of Their wrath has come! And who is able to stand?"(seeMalachi 3:2)(see Isaiah 13:11)(see Zephaniah 1:18)

markedward
Mar 23rd 2008, 08:23 PM
In response to the white horse:

What about the horse specifically implies an evil man? My arguments to the opposite:

1 - Literally every other use of the word "white" in the Revelation is used to refer to people of righteousness and purity, whether they be men, angels or God Himself (including Jesus). To take this one instance of the word "white" and interpret it as a "false messiah" seems rather arbitrary and inconsistent. That is to say, when every other use of the word "white" is used to infer righteousness, it makes little sense to take this one use and turn it around.

2 - The other three horsemen are shown to be metaphoric. We don't expect a literal man on a red horse to ride around the world with a sword, hacking and slashing at people, or a rider on a black horse to carry around scales to weigh out every individual's wages and foods and such. Obviously, the riders of the red, black and pale horses are intended to be symbolic of events, not literal individuals. To take the rider of the white horse and interpret it as a literal individual when the rest are not is arbitrary and inconsistent.

3 - The epistles of John state that "the antichrist" is a spiritual concept that is found in anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Everyone from an atheist to a Buddhist to a Jew is the antichrist. John's wording infer not a specific individual but a spiritual movement of denial of Jesus.

4 - The one epistle (2 Thessalonians) that refers to a "son of perdition" or "man of sin" refers to him as just that: openly sinful. He isn't going to pretend to be a saving messiah, he's going to be a tyrant of a man. The above "man of sin" corresponds to Revelation 13's beast, but this beast is, again, presented as being openly sinful and destructive and evil. The Revelation is very distinct about who is righteous and who is wicked. When we see evil things, they are always presented as what they are: evil. We see a dragon attempting to devour the man-child. We see two beasts warring upon the saints. We see locust-like armies torturing mankind. We see a prostitute drunk on the blood of the saints. Throughout the Revelation, John consistently shows us the wicked exactly as they are; terrible, sinful, and wretched. And he consistently shows us the righteous exactly as they are; pure, good, and, more often than not, clothed in white. If the rider of the white horse is evil, the imagery doesn't fit the consistency of the rest of the Revelation, especially since John never says anything to the show that the rider of the white horse is only a "pretender."

My conclusion on the rider of the white horse is that it is symbolic of something good, possibly the outgoing of the Gospel or the movement of the Holy Spirit.



In response to the "celestial signs:"

I highly doubt that these would literally happen. Similar "celestial signs" were prophesied over ancient nations, such as Edom, Egypt, Babylon, Tyre, Assyria, etc. When judgment came to pass upon these nations, we never saw stars literally fall upon them (heck, a single star would annihilate the earth). The best we can call it is "prophetic hyperbole." It is intended to depict the intensity of the judgment that is to come to pass, but that doesn't mean it would literally happen. The darkening of the sun and moon and stars, or the stars falling away, or the heavens rolling up, or God coming on clouds, are all Old Testament metaphors for judgment; each of the things mentioned were prophesied over nations during the time of the OT, and the judgments came to pass, but they didn't happen entirely literally. To put this into the best modern analogy, it's similar to someone saying it was "raining cats and dogs." We don't look out the window and expect to see literal cats and dogs dropping out of the sky, it was a metaphor for the intensity of the rain.

covenant mom
Mar 23rd 2008, 09:50 PM
In response to the white horse:

What about the horse specifically implies an evil man? My arguments to the opposite:

1 - Literally every other use of the word "white" in the Revelation is used to refer to people of righteousness and purity, whether they be men, angels or God Himself (including Jesus). To take this one instance of the word "white" and interpret it as a "false messiah" seems rather arbitrary and inconsistent. That is to say, when every other use of the word "white" is used to infer righteousness, it makes little sense to take this one use and turn it around.

2 - The other three horsemen are shown to be metaphoric. We don't expect a literal man on a red horse to ride around the world with a sword, hacking and slashing at people, or a rider on a black horse to carry around scales to weigh out every individual's wages and foods and such. Obviously, the riders of the red, black and pale horses are intended to be symbolic of events, not literal individuals. To take the rider of the white horse and interpret it as a literal individual when the rest are not is arbitrary and inconsistent.

3 - The epistles of John state that "the antichrist" is a spiritual concept that is found in anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Everyone from an atheist to a Buddhist to a Jew is the antichrist. John's wording infer not a specific individual but a spiritual movement of denial of Jesus.

4 - The one epistle (2 Thessalonians) that refers to a "son of perdition" or "man of sin" refers to him as just that: openly sinful. He isn't going to pretend to be a saving messiah, he's going to be a tyrant of a man. The above "man of sin" corresponds to Revelation 13's beast, but this beast is, again, presented as being openly sinful and destructive and evil. The Revelation is very distinct about who is righteous and who is wicked. When we see evil things, they are always presented as what they are: evil. We see a dragon attempting to devour the man-child. We see two beasts warring upon the saints. We see locust-like armies torturing mankind. We see a prostitute drunk on the blood of the saints. Throughout the Revelation, John consistently shows us the wicked exactly as they are; terrible, sinful, and wretched. And he consistently shows us the righteous exactly as they are; pure, good, and, more often than not, clothed in white. If the rider of the white horse is evil, the imagery doesn't fit the consistency of the rest of the Revelation, especially since John never says anything to the show that the rider of the white horse is only a "pretender."

My conclusion on the rider of the white horse is that it is symbolic of something good, possibly the outgoing of the Gospel or the movement of the Holy Spirit.



In response to the "celestial signs:"

I highly doubt that these would literally happen. Similar "celestial signs" were prophesied over ancient nations, such as Edom, Egypt, Babylon, Tyre, Assyria, etc. When judgment came to pass upon these nations, we never saw stars literally fall upon them (heck, a single star would annihilate the earth). The best we can call it is "prophetic hyperbole." It is intended to depict the intensity of the judgment that is to come to pass, but that doesn't mean it would literally happen. The darkening of the sun and moon and stars, or the stars falling away, or the heavens rolling up, or God coming on clouds, are all Old Testament metaphors for judgment; each of the things mentioned were prophesied over nations during the time of the OT, and the judgments came to pass, but they didn't happen entirely literally. To put this into the best modern analogy, it's similar to someone saying it was "raining cats and dogs." We don't look out the window and expect to see literal cats and dogs dropping out of the sky, it was a metaphor for the intensity of the rain.

I appreciate your input, but I respectfully disagree.


In Matt 24 Jesus says “Take heed that no man deceive you, for many shall come in My name, saying ‘I am the Messiah,’ and shall deceive many.” These false messiahs and false prophets are represented by the white horse’s rider in Rev.6:2. The false religious systems of Islam is my best bed. They have deceived billions of people worldwide, and it is prophesied to get worse as we get closer to the end. The “bow” is a symbol of war. Who enforces their religion with the death penalty for non-believers in their system? Islam!? He was given a crown – by whom? Satan? Certainly not Yahweh!

covenant mom
Mar 23rd 2008, 09:55 PM
As far as the celestial signs being non-literal....I strongly disagree. Matt & Joel also describe these celestial events that will happen immediately after the tribulation of those days. There are many more reasons IMO to believe these will be literal than metaphoric.

ScottJohnson
Mar 23rd 2008, 09:59 PM
It's an excellent study Covenant Mom, but I tend to lean in with markedward concerning the first seal. Revelation is a very symbolic book and "white tends to be symbolic for purity. The premillennial anti-christ is anything but pure. Also the bow without the arrow indicates a peaceful conquest. The premill "anti-christ" will conquer by deception and force. Jesus' conquest has been and will continue to be a peaceful one. The only offensive weapon in the Lord's army is a sword which is the Word of God.

Banzy
Mar 23rd 2008, 10:29 PM
Nice post markedward.

Its too bad that a lot of people have made Revelation into something about the devil and the antichrist and the mark, etc. etc. and got the focus off of what it really is about: The Revelation of Jesus Christ. The whole book reveals Him.

In the 6th chapter most have taken the focus off of Jesus as well and contributed it to the antichrist etc. However, try to focus on Who is unsealing the book: The Lamb. Jesus is unsealing Himself, ie The Revelation of Jesus Christ. Read chapter 6 as its Jesus Himself. What did Jesus tell His disciples after the Cross(when He was the Lamb)? All authority had been given to Him. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations. Matt. 28:18-19.

The next horse is taking peace from the earth and there was given to him a great sword. What does Jesus Himself say in Matt. 10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword."

The next horse is black and has balances. Weighing the worth of wheat and barley. Plus not harming the oil and the wine. These are obvious references to christians.

The fourth horse has Death and Hades following. Who has the keys of Death, Hell, and the Grave? Jesus does.

Finally, the 6th seal speaks of Israel falling. The sun, moon and stars has direct ties to Israel. Remember to begin with, Israel was a person and had 12 sons. Have that in mind when you read about the 6th seal and read it along with the dream that Joseph had way back in Genesis 37: "Then he dreamed another dream and told it to his brothers, and said; Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me." Now read the interpretation of the dream from his father(Jacob, who became Israel)

"Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?" Thus equating himself with the sun, his wife with the moon and his eleven brothers as the stars.

Pretty cool huh? Also look at the rest of the 6th seal. Who are they fleeing from? The Lamb. Not the Lion. This all occurred because of His death, burial, and resurrection. Hallelujah! How appropriate on this Easter Sunday.

markedward
Mar 23rd 2008, 11:36 PM
As far as the celestial signs being non-literal....I strongly disagree. Matt & Joel also describe these celestial events that will happen immediately after the tribulation of those days. There are many more reasons IMO to believe these will be literal than metaphoric.The Revelation is filled with Old Testament imagery and idioms. One of these, of course, is the sun-moon-stars imagery.

Isaiah 13 - Isaiah prophesies against the ancient nation of Babylon. He says the stars, sun and moon would be darkened. Isaiah calls this day of judgment "the day of the LORD."

Isaiah 34 - Isaiah prophesies against ancient Edom. He says that the stars will dissolve and the sky would roll up and the stars would fall.

Ezekiel 32 - Ezekiel prophesies against ancient Egypt. He says the sun and moon and stars would be darkened.

Amos 8 - Amos prophesies against ancient Israel. He says the sun would set mid-day.

2 Samuel 22 - David sings against his enemies and against Saul. He says the earth and heavens trembled as God rode on dark clouds down to the earth.

Obviously, none of these literally happened, so the best explanation is that they are prophetic idioms related to the ancient Jewish culture. Since John came from this same culture, we have a very good reason to believe that the sun-moon-stars verses from Revelation (and from Jesus' Olivet Discourse) wasn't intended to be taken literally.

quiet dove
Mar 24th 2008, 01:08 AM
covenant mom, I am pre trib but I think it was a good post. I agree with you on the white horse. Wolf in sheeps clothing thing going on there. I also tend to take the celestial signs very literally.

I disagree that the interpretation takes us away from Christ. I believe in 6:15-16 we can see that it is all about Jesus Christ and He is the Lamb, the only one worthy to open the seals. There is no doubt about Who is in charge, Jesus. No one else but Jesus is worthy to send this wrath upon those who have rejected Him.

The rider of the white horse
Joh 5:43 I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.

Literalist-Luke
Mar 24th 2008, 02:15 AM
Hi, Covenant Mom! I am so glad you're here. Once my PMing is on, we're gonna hafta "talk".

OK, sorry, back to business....


The Revelation is filled with Old Testament imagery and idioms. One of these, of course, is the sun-moon-stars imagery.

Isaiah 13 - Isaiah prophesies against the ancient nation of Babylon. He says the stars, sun and moon would be darkened. Isaiah calls this day of judgment "the day of the LORD."This reason this prophecy has never been fulfilled literally is because it's still waiting for its ultimate fulfillment. You're writing it off too early.
Isaiah 34 - Isaiah prophesies against ancient Edom. He says that the stars will dissolve and the sky would roll up and the stars would fall.Same thing, this is still waiting for its fulfillment.

Ezekiel 32 - Ezekiel prophesies against ancient Egypt. He says the sun and moon and stars would be darkened.Same thing again.
Amos 8 - Amos prophesies against ancient Israel. He says the sun would set mid-day.This WAS fulfilled literally! Have you not read the story of the crucifixion? The Gospel accounts tell us that the sun went dark at noon. If that's not fulfillment, then I don't know what is! The parts about the destruction of Israel were also fulfilled to the letter in 70 AD!
2 Samuel 22 - David sings against his enemies and against Saul. He says the earth and heavens trembled as God rode on dark clouds down to the earth.This is awaiting a future fulfillment as well. Consider Psalm 22 for example. Psalm 22 is widely taken as a prophecy of Jesus hanging on the cross, centuries before crucifixion was even used as a method of execution. Yet the entire Psalm is in either present or past tense, just like the passage you reference in II Samuel 22. If Psalm 22 is referencing the then-future crucifixion as most Christians would agree, then so is II Samuel 22.
Obviously, none of these literally happened,Nope, one of them did, sorry, and the others will too at the 2nd Coming.
so the best explanation is that they are prophetic idioms related to the ancient Jewish culture. Can you find a place in the Scriptures where God instructs us to take it that way?
Since John came from this same culture, we have a very good reason to believe that the sun-moon-stars verses from Revelation (and from Jesus' Olivet Discourse) wasn't intended to be taken literally.So what other parts of the Bible shall we take metaphorically? How about Heaven? or how about the Resurrection? or how about the Crucifixion? Where do we draw the line?

markedward
Mar 24th 2008, 02:43 AM
This reason this prophecy has never been fulfilled literally is because it's still waiting for its ultimate fulfillment.

You're writing it off too early.

Same thing, this is still waiting for its fulfillment.

Same thing again.Simply saying they "wait for a future fulfillment" doesn't mean they are. It seems that the only way they could rely on a future literal fulfillment is if one presumes they are literal. Otherwise, it makes little sense to take them out of the context they were presented in. Are Assyria and Edom and Babylon still around? No. Those ancient nations have fallen and no longer exist, showing that their judgments were fulfilled. Even Egypt of the ancient days is no longer the great empire it was, so its judgment was fulfilled as well.


This WAS fulfilled literally! Have you not read the story of the crucifixion? The Gospel accounts tell us that the sun went dark at noon.The passage from Amos says that God would make the sun set at noon. The Gospel accounts didn't say that the sun set at noon, they say that the sky darkened. This is easily explainable as clouds covering the sky, but nowhere do the Gospels says that the sun set as Amos stated. The only way the passage from Amos could be considered to be prophesying the darkening of the sky at Jesus' time of death is if you take the setting of the sun as metaphoric for the sky becoming dark, and even that requires acknowledging that the passage from Amos is at least somewhat non-literal.


So what other parts of the Bible shall we take metaphorically? How about Heaven? or how about the Resurrection? or how about the Crucifixion? Where do we draw the line?This is ridiculous. You're drastically stretching what I was saying. I said that the sun-moon-stars expressions were Hebrew idioms. I specifically referred to the sun-moon-stars expression. I didn't say a single thing about heaven or the resurrection or the crucifixion being idioms. You're intentionally twisting what I had said to make it appear that I had suggested we take everything metaphorically when I did no such thing. Again, I was speaking of one topic, being Scriptural use of expression relating to the sun and moon and stars in prophetic manner and that I believe such expressions were metaphoric, and you have twisted my words to make it appear that I was suggesting core beliefs of the Christian faith were nother but metaphors when I said nothing about those cornerstone beliefs.

moonglow
Mar 24th 2008, 03:00 AM
I agree with what mark is saying...the bible tells us what is to be literal and what isn't. In Revelation it tells us Jesus will return with a double edge sword coming out of His mouth...we know this isn't to be taken literally...that the sword in this case, is the Word of God.

Revelation 1:16
He held seven stars in his right hand, and a sharp two-edged sword came from his mouth. And his face was like the sun in all its brilliance.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires

We know when the sword is literal:

Acts 12:2
He had the apostle James (John’s brother) killed with a sword.

We also don't expect Jesus to return literally holding seven stars in His hand. Either the stars would be tiny or Jesus would be gigantic. further down in Revelation 1 it explains what the stars are along with the lampstands:

20 This is the meaning of the mystery of the seven stars you saw in my right hand and the seven gold lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

It does not explain what the sword coming out of Jesus mouth is because more then likely John knew his readers would already know what that meant.

We have to remember WHO John was writing his letter too and what those readers of his time would know regarding the bible..mostly the OT as the NT wasn't written yet. What would these things mean to them first and foremost, then we can figure out what they mean to us today.

So we draw the line as to what is symbolic and what is literal simply by what the bible tells us is symbolic and what is literal. No more then that otherwise we end up with a misunderstanding of what these scriptures mean.

God bless

Literalist-Luke
Mar 24th 2008, 03:32 AM
I agree with what mark is saying...the bible tells us what is to be literal and what isn't. In Revelation it tells us Jesus will return with a double edge sword coming out of His mouth...we know this isn't to be taken literally...that the sword in this case, is the Word of God.

Revelation 1:16
He held seven stars in his right hand, and a sharp two-edged sword came from his mouth. And his face was like the sun in all its brilliance.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires

We know when the sword is literal:

Acts 12:2
He had the apostle James (John’s brother) killed with a sword.

We also don't expect Jesus to return literally holding seven stars in His hand. Either the stars would be tiny or Jesus would be gigantic. further down in Revelation 1 it explains what the stars are along with the lampstands:

20 This is the meaning of the mystery of the seven stars you saw in my right hand and the seven gold lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

It does not explain what the sword coming out of Jesus mouth is because more then likely John knew his readers would already know what that meant.

We have to remember WHO John was writing his letter too and what those readers of his time would know regarding the bible..mostly the OT as the NT wasn't written yet. What would these things mean to them first and foremost, then we can figure out what they mean to us today.

So we draw the line as to what is symbolic and what is literal simply by what the bible tells us is symbolic and what is literal. No more then that otherwise we end up with a misunderstanding of what these scriptures mean.

God blessI actually agree with you completely about letting the Bible separate what is to be taken literally vs. symbolically, and the examples you provided are entirely valid. So why should we not take the many prophecies of the sun going dark, the moon turning blood-red, and the sky rolling back like a scroll literally? It is quite true that there are no examples in all of history of an occurrence like that, but there has never been a 2nd Coming of Christ either. If the 2nd Coming is not going to happen precisely as the Bible describes for us, then how will it happen? How can we know?

quiet dove
Mar 24th 2008, 04:07 AM
It seems that what we need to consider with the literal, symbolic, metaphorical, idiom, allegorical issue here when discussing it is,... that we all believe the Bible 100% and none of us are saying any part of it has not or will not happen just exactly as written. I mean, even if one of us takes it the moon turning red as symbolism for something, it is still symbolism for something believed that literally has or will take place. What the symbolism stands for did or is going to happen, depending on the view. There are many prophecies in the Bible and depending on the other persons view, I can take what they see symbolically as literal and they can take what I see as literal as symbolically, or vice versa,( you know what I mean) just about verse by verse seeing them just the opposite of the other but that does not mean they or I doubt any one of the prophecies.

Lets not get off track and totally derail the discussion. All of us here believe the account of Christ death and resurrection to be literal and 100% accurate. We all agree He will literally return and take us to be with Him forever.

We just cant agree on how the prophecies of His return will come to pass. So back to the discussion of Rev 6 which will, one way or the other, be 100% fulfilled. That much we all agree on.
:)

ross3421
Mar 24th 2008, 06:52 AM
Agree with most but included some other info. All four are evil, correct. It would not make sense for 3 to be evil and one good? In addition we see "four" beasts in each kingdom (Satan/God) which are four kings ie. kings of the earth. A clue that they are the four beasts of the devil is that is is the four beasts of God which present them to John.



[quote]

The Third Seal ~ Famine/Food shortages/High food prices


5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" And I looked, and there was a black horse. The horseman on it had a balance scale in his hand. 6 Then I heard something like a voice among the four living creatures say, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius—but do not harm the olive oil and the wine."




I just want to say when this kingdom of Satan arises, there will be no food prices........The world will be much different than you think. Sael #3 is indicated that this king has control over all supplies but the shortage will only come to those which do not submit and receive the mark.





The Fourth Seal ~ ¼ earth under Death’s authority & killed via war/famine/plague/disease




The 1/4 again is due tot the fact that there are four kings each having control over 1/4. The little horn or king of kings will rule over all.

Mark

moonglow
Mar 24th 2008, 02:06 PM
I actually agree with you completely about letting the Bible separate what is to be taken literally vs. symbolically, and the examples you provided are entirely valid. So why should we not take the many prophecies of the sun going dark, the moon turning blood-red, and the sky rolling back like a scroll literally? It is quite true that there are no examples in all of history of an occurrence like that, but there has never been a 2nd Coming of Christ either. If the 2nd Coming is not going to happen precisely as the Bible describes for us, then how will it happen? How can we know?

The promises of God in the bible are literally fulfilled...the expression of wrath by God in the bible are always using symbolically. markedward gave some good examples of that from the bible. Many times in the OT we see the wrath of God being armies from other nations trampling those under God's wrath, though the scriptural expression may say something like the 'heavens shook' and 'star fell' etc. I am just learning this all myself.. but as I said the promises of God are literal. Anyway I want to respect what our moderator, quiet dove, has asked, and stick to the original post at hand.

So back to the topic at hand. I also believe the first horseman is Christ not an antichrist. There is no indication that the first rider is out to deceive...no arrow in his hand. And again white is always given as a sign of purity in the bible. People saying they are the Christ has always happened throughout our history and yes people have been deceived by them. In fact before Jerusalem fell there were alot of these types of people going around and deceiving many.

What I would like to do here is only present another viewpoint of the horses and their riders. I really don't want to debate it though as that usually leads to no where. So this is just for consideration...to disregard or file away for notes later. Oh by the way, Coffman uses some rather harsh terms here that some might find offensive and I am truly sorry about that as I mean no offense towards those holding other viewpoints.

This is from Coffman's bible commentary:
(http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=006)
It is wrong to read of these continuing scourges of war, famine, and disease as if they were, in any sense, unlimited. The oil and wine were not to be hurt under the black horse, and in the case of the pale horse, even the extensive arsenal of destructive weapons could not give him any authority over anything beyond "the fourth part of the earth." Thus, God's merciful providence for mankind is plainly evident in these awful calamities.

Some have been perplexed that God would permit such a thing as the disasters depicted under the last three of these horsemen. Caird thought that, "We may be pardoned for asking whether the Lamb who lets such horrors loose on the world is really the same person as the Jesus of the gospel story." F29 A comment like that is grounded in blindness to the great mercy of God evident even in these four judgments; and also, there is a blindness to the truth that it was not the Lamb who let loose the horrors - that epic mistake belongs to Adam and his posterity. Man, having rebelled against his Creator and being expelled from the Paradise of God, may thank only himself for the manifold miseries which drown the world in sorrows.

The progression of these visions is one that exhibits the following: (1) God permits people to continue the enjoyment of freedom of their will. God will not procure obedience through coercion. (2) The progression of disastrous human calamities is not permitted to ravage without limitation, but each of them is limited, a fact that will often recur in subsequent visions. (3) Nor are these terrible riders permitted to go alone.

At the head of the van is the white horse with its crowned rider; and all of the others "following" him means that they are not permitted to destroy except under the rules of divine restraint. Moreover, that first rider carries the news of the everlasting gospel, capable of saving all who were ever born on earth. It has the double quality, however, of making even worse those who hear it and reject it, a quality which fully entitles the Rider of the first seal to take his place with the other "judgments" upon mankind, indeed not as their equal, but as their king and leader. For "Neither does the Father judge any man, but he hath given all judgment unto the Son" (John 5:22).

The above analysis of these four riders absolutely requires that the first be understood as the Lord Jesus Christ. The denial of this can lead to exactly the kind of pessimism mentioned by Caird.

"The futurist interpretation holds that these seals refer to terrible judgments upon humanity at the end of this age." However, such an explanation leaves out of sight the undeniable truth that every morning's newspaper carries the account of what these ravaging horsemen are doing, not at some future time, but right now all over the world.
************************************************** *
At the link folks can read in more detail about each rider. I realize this view is totally different then the original post and I figure covenant mom would like to discuss her views much more then other people's views, so I will respect that and move on. As I said this is something to just consider...

God bless

covenant mom
Mar 24th 2008, 11:30 PM
Nice post markedward.

Its too bad that a lot of people have made Revelation into something about the devil and the antichrist and the mark, etc. etc. and got the focus off of what it really is about: The Revelation of Jesus Christ. The whole book reveals Him.

In the 6th chapter most have taken the focus off of Jesus as well and contributed it to the antichrist etc. However, try to focus on Who is unsealing the book: The Lamb. Jesus is unsealing Himself, ie The Revelation of Jesus Christ. Read chapter 6 as its Jesus Himself. What did Jesus tell His disciples after the Cross(when He was the Lamb)? All authority had been given to Him. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations. Matt. 28:18-19.

The next horse is taking peace from the earth and there was given to him a great sword. What does Jesus Himself say in Matt. 10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword."

The next horse is black and has balances. Weighing the worth of wheat and barley. Plus not harming the oil and the wine. These are obvious references to christians.

The fourth horse has Death and Hades following. Who has the keys of Death, Hell, and the Grave? Jesus does.

Finally, the 6th seal speaks of Israel falling. The sun, moon and stars has direct ties to Israel. Remember to begin with, Israel was a person and had 12 sons. Have that in mind when you read about the 6th seal and read it along with the dream that Joseph had way back in Genesis 37: "Then he dreamed another dream and told it to his brothers, and said; Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me." Now read the interpretation of the dream from his father(Jacob, who became Israel)

"Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?" Thus equating himself with the sun, his wife with the moon and his eleven brothers as the stars.

Pretty cool huh? Also look at the rest of the 6th seal. Who are they fleeing from? The Lamb. Not the Lion. This all occurred because of His death, burial, and resurrection. Hallelujah! How appropriate on this Easter Sunday.

Okay, this is an interesting take on the seals, that I'm not sure I've ever seen before. So do you make no connection btw the seals & the OD in Matt? And if the seals are as you say, how do they relate to the 70th week "tribulation" events or are they not apart of the 70th week. Or do you believe in a literal tribulation @ all? Just trying to understand where you are coming from that see it this way. :hmm:

heart hammer
Mar 24th 2008, 11:55 PM
I will say this first and foremost. It is dangerous to imply that the rider on the white horse in Rev 6 is the same rider on the white horse of Rev. 19 is a grievous mistake. This rider has a bow (satan has fiery darts). A crown was given to Him. When did Christ have to be given a crown He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords? Who would crown Him? At the same time we see that the beast is '...and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months...'.
When Christ comes He comes with a Sword and with ten thousands of His saints.
Do not be confused by the parallels. Satan is the deceiver because he makes the lie so close to the truth. Know the Word and the Lord who has authored it.
Take Care and God Bless

Banzy
Mar 25th 2008, 12:02 AM
Hello covenant mom,

P.S. I like your name, because I am a full new covenant believer. HE is risen!

I think all of our theories actually come down to how we see it. I believe in a victorious Christ and I believe in His awesome Church that He is building. I don't believe the devil has his best days ahead of him. I believe he was defeated by the Christ. I'm assuming you are pretrib or some kind of trib person, forgive me if I'm wrong, just trying to guess.

I'm not. I'm no trib as far as how they are interpreted. I believe the 70 weeks were as they were prophesied. And they happened, 490 consecutive years. If you look at the 6 things that the 70 weeks were about in Dan. 9:24 then read Isaiah 53 then read all of Hebrews you understand that they were all completely fulfilled by Jesus's death, burial, and resurrection.

Then notice as I stated in my first post, its the Lamb that opens the seals. Because of His death, burial, and resurrection all authority had been given to Him. Therefore He could say to His disciples to go out and make disciples of all nations. That is where I see the white horse.

Then if you look at what Jesus said about Himself in Matt. 10 that he wasn't there to bring peace but a sword and you read that the next horse is fiery red and it was granted to him to take peace from the earth and a mighty sword was given to him. The message of the cross and the resurrection is fiery and it certainly does divide as Jesus said.

The next horse is black and has a pair of balances. I believe this also speaks of Jesus and how He is The Blacksmith and He is building His church. If you look in 2Chronicles 2 you will notice that they are building the temple. Wheat, barley, oil and wine are in a couple of those verses together.

The next horse has Death and Hades with it. Just prior a couple of chapters Jesus tells John that He is the One that has the key to Death and Hades. Once again, this is right after His death when He went down into Hell and got the keys back. Satan is not in control anymore, Hallelujah! Our Lord and Savior is...

Finally, the last part of ch. 6 as I mentioned before speaks of Israel falling. Read what I previously said about the dream that Joseph had and the interpretation. Then read what Jesus says in Matt. 21:33-43 and also Matt. 23.

See what you think. If you disagree thats fine. I'll love ya no matter what cause you're a sister to me in the Lord and thats all I really need to know. I fully believe that as the days and years go by that the church will continue to grow and become brighter and brighter and I believe that more and more of the truth will become evident. Hope I answered some of your questions.

ScottJohnson
Mar 25th 2008, 12:10 AM
I will say this first and foremost. It is dangerous to imply that the rider on the white horse in Rev 6 is the same rider on the white horse of Rev. 19 is a grievous mistake. This rider has a bow (satan has fiery darts). A crown was given to Him. When did Christ have to be given a crown He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords? Who would crown Him?

Perhaps the same entity that gave Him all power in heaven and earth.

Mat 28:18
(18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

covenant mom
Mar 25th 2008, 12:19 AM
I will say this first and foremost. It is dangerous to imply that the rider on the white horse in Rev 6 is the same rider on the white horse of Rev. 19 is a grievous mistake. This rider has a bow (satan has fiery darts). A crown was given to Him. When did Christ have to be given a crown He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords? Who would crown Him? At the same time we see that the beast is '...and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months...'.
When Christ comes He comes with a Sword and with ten thousands of His saints.
Do not be confused by the parallels. Satan is the deceiver because he makes the lie so close to the truth. Know the Word and the Lord who has authored it.
Take Care and God Bless

I would have to agree w/ you Heart Hammer. I think you're correct here.:)

covenant mom
Mar 25th 2008, 12:23 AM
Hello covenant mom,

P.S. I like your name, because I am a full new covenant believer. HE is risen!

I think all of our theories actually come down to how we see it. I believe in a victorious Christ and I believe in His awesome Church that He is building. I don't believe the devil has his best days ahead of him. I believe he was defeated by the Christ. I'm assuming you are pretrib or some kind of trib person, forgive me if I'm wrong, just trying to guess.

I'm not. I'm no trib as far as how they are interpreted. I believe the 70 weeks were as they were prophesied. And they happened, 490 consecutive years. If you look at the 6 things that the 70 weeks were about in Dan. 9:24 then read Isaiah 53 then read all of Hebrews you understand that they were all completely fulfilled by Jesus's death, burial, and resurrection.

Then notice as I stated in my first post, its the Lamb that opens the seals. Because of His death, burial, and resurrection all authority had been given to Him. Therefore He could say to His disciples to go out and make disciples of all nations. That is where I see the white horse.

Then if you look at what Jesus said about Himself in Matt. 10 that he wasn't there to bring peace but a sword and you read that the next horse is fiery red and it was granted to him to take peace from the earth and a mighty sword was given to him. The message of the cross and the resurrection is fiery and it certainly does divide as Jesus said.

The next horse is black and has a pair of balances. I believe this also speaks of Jesus and how He is The Blacksmith and He is building His church. If you look in 2Chronicles 2 you will notice that they are building the temple. Wheat, barley, oil and wine are in a couple of those verses together.

The next horse has Death and Hades with it. Just prior a couple of chapters Jesus tells John that He is the One that has the key to Death and Hades. Once again, this is right after His death when He went down into Hell and got the keys back. Satan is not in control anymore, Hallelujah! Our Lord and Savior is...

Finally, the last part of ch. 6 as I mentioned before speaks of Israel falling. Read what I previously said about the dream that Joseph had and the interpretation. Then read what Jesus says in Matt. 21:33-43 and also Matt. 23.

See what you think. If you disagree thats fine. I'll love ya no matter what cause you're a sister to me in the Lord and thats all I really need to know. I fully believe that as the days and years go by that the church will continue to grow and become brighter and brighter and I believe that more and more of the truth will become evident. Hope I answered some of your questions.

Okay, that did clear up where you are coming from for me. I respect your views on this, but do disagree. I do agree 100% that we must love each other & be respectful as we disagree or agree. We for sure know that is Biblical! Thanks for the compliment. I enjoy conversations w/ folks like you. You are very kind. :kiss:

sudds
Mar 25th 2008, 05:19 PM
This is a good post and some good responses. Before I give my op, I want to establish some facts.

We must remember that there was a great war at the crucifixion of Jesus in the spiritual kingdoms. Apparently, God didn't have complete control over these spiritual kingdoms before Christ's resurrection.

Isaiah 24:21. In that day the Lord will punish the powers in the heavens above and the kings on the earth below.

Zechariah 4:15. When the powerful horses went out, they were straining to go throughout the earth!" And He said, "Go throughout the earth!" So they went throughout the earth.

In reference to the above verse....why were they straining? I would assume they met resistance; the same resistance from ungodly spiritual nations that the angel met that we read about in Daniel 10.

Revelation 11:15. The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven which said. "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and His Christ, and He will reign for ever and ever."

In reference to the above verse, "has become" means it is new. I don't think the above verse is talking about the end of the world i.e heaven, because it says "the kingdom of the world." As we know the kingdom of Christianity in not of this world. This has to have reference to the spiritual kingdoms that were reorganized and are still with us today. Dan 10 indicated that these spiritual kingdoms parallel with the events of our physical nations...even the same name.

Back to the post concerning Rev 6. I believe that the new world order is established after the resurrection. The book of Daniel is about world empires and their various commands when they controlled the world.

Assyria transported the men of conquered countries and injected Assyrian men to intermarry with the women of the conquered countries. Samaritans were a result of this.

Babylon transported anyone with talent or abilities to form a grand city.

Persia allowed the captives to go back to their original homeland

Greece wanted to live by the Greek language and culture.

Rome set up puppet kings. Declared a census, changed the calender, and named the days of the week (we still use today).

The sun-moon-stars imagery sometimes accompanies these physical world changes in the OT as Markedward pointed out. This was the case on the Day of Pentecost following the resurrection of Jesus. The sun-moon-star imagery was prophesied by Joel and fulfilled in Acts 2 just before the empire of God officially entered the world. It is also mentioned in the Olivet Discourse.

Acts 2:19. I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
Acts 2:20. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

So the question......what will be the changes in the new empire concerning the spiritual kingdoms that will affect the physical earth?

1. White horse - Christ conquering the spiritual nations of the world at the resurrection.

2. Red horse - there will still be wars on the earth.

3. Black horse - people will still have to work for a living

4. Pale horse - people will continue to die a physical death.

5. 5th seal - there is a holding place we call the hadean world that people will inhabit after their physical death.

6. 6th seal - Judgment Day.

IMHO

Banzy
Mar 25th 2008, 05:28 PM
Hello again, covenantmom:

Thanks for your comments as well. Just a little bit of background to let you know where I am coming from as you put it.

I once believed in a pretrib rapture. I was all about it. Studied it, heard others preach about it, bought some books about it. In other words I was into the the thing.

Then something changed. I believe Moonglow has a thread about this. But I began seeing things that don't add up. You could say that I got a revelation of who He is, kinda of like Paul in the beginning of his letter to the Galatians. Its like I explained in the last post. Its really how you see the whole scheme of things. And I as said, I see a victorious Christ. After the victory on the Cross and after His victory over death, I could no longer see the devil having his best days yet to come.

But not only that, I also began to realize that the pretrib view has anti-Cross, anti-church, and anti-Christ ideas that come with it. Please don't be offended by these thoughts if you currently believe in a pretrib view. I only trying to explain what I see.

For instance, in the pretrib rapture view, what happens after the so called rapture? Is it then all about Israel? And if so, does Israel build a temple? Do they implement animal sacrifices? If they would, these things would be reprehensible to God. And there are a number of other things that are anticross, antichurch, and antichrist that go along with this theory.

My ideas now--- A victorious Christ because of His work on the Cross and His victory over death. Daniel speaks about a stone that becomes a mountain then fills the whole earth. He says that this stone kingdom per se would be set up during the time of those other kings. Obviously the stone was Jesus, and yes His Kingdom was established over 2000 years ago during the time of the Roman Kingdom.

Where a lot of people miss it, is that they make the same mistake that Israel did and didn't recognize the Messiah. They thought he would destroy the Roman empire and restore Israel. But He didn't and you can read His explanation for it. But, Hallelujah, The Stone which the builders rejected has become the chief Cornerstone. And the Kingdom, which started as that Stone(Jesus) is becoming a mountain, and will fill the whole earth as Daniel said it would. And you can see today, that kingdom is continuing to increase. Its in you and I and everyone else who calls on the name of the Lord.

But when the focus of the endtimes gets on the antichrist and the devil and the beast and the mark of the beast and the rapture and the..... Ad nauseum, the focus gets off of Jesus.

So the areas we differ....

I believe His Kingdom is here and it is growing

Others believe His Kingdom is yet future and the devil's kingdom is growing.

I believe the 70 weeks of Daniel have been fulfilled. And if they have been fulfilled then there is not 7 week tribulation period. And if no 7 week trib period, then there is no rapture, before it, in the middle of it, after it, etc. etc.

Others believe that these 70 weeks are not 70 weeks but who knows how many weeks they turn out to be as they have stretched on now for way more than 490 years.

I believe when He said: "It is finished", He meant it. And because of His work on the Cross and His death, and finally His resurrection, He has become victorious. "...that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil..." Heb. 2:14

And because of what He accomplished: "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." Matt. 28:18

If all authority has been given to Him on earth and He told His disciples to make disciples of all the nations, then how does some beast or antichrist, or devil take over the earth? Is the devil stronger than the cross?

This may be a lot of digest but I just ask that you look at it. If it doesn't change your mind, like I've said before, thats ok. We are still a part of His body, and I love ya whether we agree or disagree.:kiss:

Literalist-Luke
Mar 25th 2008, 06:05 PM
Hello again, covenantmom:

Thanks for your comments as well. Just a little bit of background to let you know where I am coming from as you put it.

I once believed in a pretrib rapture. I was all about it. Studied it, heard others preach about it, bought some books about it. In other words I was into the the thing.

Then something changed. I believe Moonglow has a thread about this. But I began seeing things that don't add up. You could say that I got a revelation of who He is, kinda of like Paul in the beginning of his letter to the Galatians. Its like I explained in the last post. Its really how you see the whole scheme of things. And I as said, I see a victorious Christ. After the victory on the Cross and after His victory over death, I could no longer see the devil having his best days yet to come.

But not only that, I also began to realize that the pretrib view has anti-Cross, anti-church, and anti-Christ ideas that come with it. Please don't be offended by these thoughts if you currently believe in a pretrib view. I only trying to explain what I see.

For instance, in the pretrib rapture view, what happens after the so called rapture? Is it then all about Israel? And if so, does Israel build a temple? Do they implement animal sacrifices? If they would, these things would be reprehensible to God. And there are a number of other things that are anticross, antichurch, and antichrist that go along with this theory.

My ideas now--- A victorious Christ because of His work on the Cross and His victory over death. Daniel speaks about a stone that becomes a mountain then fills the whole earth. He says that this stone kingdom per se would be set up during the time of those other kings. Obviously the stone was Jesus, and yes His Kingdom was established over 2000 years ago during the time of the Roman Kingdom.

Where a lot of people miss it, is that they make the same mistake that Israel did and didn't recognize the Messiah. They thought he would destroy the Roman empire and restore Israel. But He didn't and you can read His explanation for it. But, Hallelujah, The Stone which the builders rejected has become the chief Cornerstone. And the Kingdom, which started as that Stone(Jesus) is becoming a mountain, and will fill the whole earth as Daniel said it would. And you can see today, that kingdom is continuing to increase. Its in you and I and everyone else who calls on the name of the Lord.

But when the focus of the endtimes gets on the antichrist and the devil and the beast and the mark of the beast and the rapture and the..... Ad nauseum, the focus gets off of Jesus.

So the areas we differ....

I believe His Kingdom is here and it is growing

Others believe His Kingdom is yet future and the devil's kingdom is growing.

I believe the 70 weeks of Daniel have been fulfilled. And if they have been fulfilled then there is not 7 week tribulation period. And if no 7 week trib period, then there is no rapture, before it, in the middle of it, after it, etc. etc.

Others believe that these 70 weeks are not 70 weeks but who knows how many weeks they turn out to be as they have stretched on now for way more than 490 years.

I believe when He said: "It is finished", He meant it. And because of His work on the Cross and His death, and finally His resurrection, He has become victorious. "...that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil..." Heb. 2:14

And because of what He accomplished: "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." Matt. 28:18

If all authority has been given to Him on earth and He told His disciples to make disciples of all the nations, then how does some beast or antichrist, or devil take over the earth? Is the devil stronger than the cross?

This may be a lot of digest but I just ask that you look at it. If it doesn't change your mind, like I've said before, thats ok. We are still a part of His body, and I love ya whether we agree or disagree.:kiss:This is Post-Millennialism.

covenant mom
Mar 25th 2008, 09:38 PM
Hello again, covenantmom:

Thanks for your comments as well. Just a little bit of background to let you know where I am coming from as you put it.

I once believed in a pretrib rapture. I was all about it. Studied it, heard others preach about it, bought some books about it. In other words I was into the the thing.

Then something changed. I believe Moonglow has a thread about this. But I began seeing things that don't add up. You could say that I got a revelation of who He is, kinda of like Paul in the beginning of his letter to the Galatians. Its like I explained in the last post. Its really how you see the whole scheme of things. And I as said, I see a victorious Christ. After the victory on the Cross and after His victory over death, I could no longer see the devil having his best days yet to come.

But not only that, I also began to realize that the pretrib view has anti-Cross, anti-church, and anti-Christ ideas that come with it. Please don't be offended by these thoughts if you currently believe in a pretrib view. I only trying to explain what I see.

For instance, in the pretrib rapture view, what happens after the so called rapture? Is it then all about Israel? And if so, does Israel build a temple? Do they implement animal sacrifices? If they would, these things would be reprehensible to God. And there are a number of other things that are anticross, antichurch, and antichrist that go along with this theory.

My ideas now--- A victorious Christ because of His work on the Cross and His victory over death. Daniel speaks about a stone that becomes a mountain then fills the whole earth. He says that this stone kingdom per se would be set up during the time of those other kings. Obviously the stone was Jesus, and yes His Kingdom was established over 2000 years ago during the time of the Roman Kingdom.

Where a lot of people miss it, is that they make the same mistake that Israel did and didn't recognize the Messiah. They thought he would destroy the Roman empire and restore Israel. But He didn't and you can read His explanation for it. But, Hallelujah, The Stone which the builders rejected has become the chief Cornerstone. And the Kingdom, which started as that Stone(Jesus) is becoming a mountain, and will fill the whole earth as Daniel said it would. And you can see today, that kingdom is continuing to increase. Its in you and I and everyone else who calls on the name of the Lord.

But when the focus of the endtimes gets on the antichrist and the devil and the beast and the mark of the beast and the rapture and the..... Ad nauseum, the focus gets off of Jesus.

So the areas we differ....

I believe His Kingdom is here and it is growing

Others believe His Kingdom is yet future and the devil's kingdom is growing.

I believe the 70 weeks of Daniel have been fulfilled. And if they have been fulfilled then there is not 7 week tribulation period. And if no 7 week trib period, then there is no rapture, before it, in the middle of it, after it, etc. etc.

Others believe that these 70 weeks are not 70 weeks but who knows how many weeks they turn out to be as they have stretched on now for way more than 490 years.

I believe when He said: "It is finished", He meant it. And because of His work on the Cross and His death, and finally His resurrection, He has become victorious. "...that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil..." Heb. 2:14

And because of what He accomplished: "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." Matt. 28:18

If all authority has been given to Him on earth and He told His disciples to make disciples of all the nations, then how does some beast or antichrist, or devil take over the earth? Is the devil stronger than the cross?

This may be a lot of digest but I just ask that you look at it. If it doesn't change your mind, like I've said before, thats ok. We are still a part of His body, and I love ya whether we agree or disagree.:kiss:

I'm a postie rapture position holder person thingamajig. :D

What would this belief do with lets say an increase in wickedness & fewer & fewer true followers of Christ? Would that mean that the Christians are failing to do their job or something else causes this phenomenon? What are the future prophecies left to be filled in this view? Just the 2nd comming? What leads up to the 2nd coming....tons of people being saved?

Also have a hypothetical question for you. Is there anything you could see in your lifetime unfold that would make you say, "hmmm, :eek: maybe Rev is literal" ? Just curious.

vinsight4u8
Mar 25th 2008, 10:10 PM
for the seal explanations:
Head to Zechariah 6 and Deuteronomy 32.

Banzy
Mar 25th 2008, 11:06 PM
hi again, covenant mom,

You asked: Increase in wickedness and fewer and fewer believers in Christ?

I do see an increase in wickedness. I believe the "world" will get darker and darker, but at the same time I see the church getting brighter and brighter.

You asked: If it was the failure of Christians? Sort of in a way. I could explain that later. Just remember its Jesus that is building His church and He said that the gates of hell wouldn't stop it.

Future prophecies yet to be fulfilled and what leads up to it/them?

Obviously, the glorious appearing of our Saviour. But prior to that, I believe Eph. 4:13-16 will be fulfilled. I believe He will come back to an awesome looking church, He is the One building it afterall.

You asked: Anything that would make you believe rev is literal?

Yeah, if some of the celestial things happened, I wouldn't have to believe cause nobody would be here after they occur.:lol:

So, you're a postie. Therefore you must still believe that the 70 weeks aren't finished. I'd ask again, take some time, read Isaiah 53 along with the six things that the 70 weeks were for in Dan. 9, and then read Hebrews.


To: Literalist-Luke

To be honest with you, I don't even know what post millenialism is perhaps I'll look into it. I've been called a replacement theologist, Kingdom Now person, and many others. But what I've found is that people throw around those words just to make themselves feel better. Its kind of like name calling from elementary school. I'm not saying you are doing that, its just what I've found to be true.

For me personally, I will give scriptures with everything that I say. People can then look them up themselves and decide for themselves. Its pretty simple that way. If they see the things I see, then that is great, if not then that is ok as well. Also, I try to answer any questions that someone might have about how they see it.

covenant mom
Mar 26th 2008, 02:39 AM
hi again, covenant mom,

You asked: Increase in wickedness and fewer and fewer believers in Christ?

I do see an increase in wickedness. I believe the "world" will get darker and darker, but at the same time I see the church getting brighter and brighter.

You asked: If it was the failure of Christians? Sort of in a way. I could explain that later. Just remember its Jesus that is building His church and He said that the gates of hell wouldn't stop it.

Future prophecies yet to be fulfilled and what leads up to it/them?

Obviously, the glorious appearing of our Saviour. But prior to that, I believe Eph. 4:13-16 will be fulfilled. I believe He will come back to an awesome looking church, He is the One building it afterall.

You asked: Anything that would make you believe rev is literal?

Yeah, if some of the celestial things happened, I wouldn't have to believe cause nobody would be here after they occur.:lol:

So, you're a postie. Therefore you must still believe that the 70 weeks aren't finished. I'd ask again, take some time, read Isaiah 53 along with the six things that the 70 weeks were for in Dan. 9, and then read Hebrews.


To: Literalist-Luke

To be honest with you, I don't even know what post millenialism is perhaps I'll look into it. I've been called a replacement theologist, Kingdom Now person, and many others. But what I've found is that people throw around those words just to make themselves feel better. Its kind of like name calling from elementary school. I'm not saying you are doing that, its just what I've found to be true.

For me personally, I will give scriptures with everything that I say. People can then look them up themselves and decide for themselves. Its pretty simple that way. If they see the things I see, then that is great, if not then that is ok as well. Also, I try to answer any questions that someone might have about how they see it.

Okay I will read those passages in a moment along with the ones the post below yours suggested (Deut & Zech). & I'll get back to you if I see something that strikes a question/point/issue/whatever.

You answered all my questions above clearly enough. One of your answers however generated another question...don't you love it when that happens? hee hee

This is the statement in question: "....I see the church getting brighter & brighter" My question is what exactly would cause this gradual brightening in the church? Does that mean that the church prior to the 2nd advent will have more Jesus than the early church in Act per say?

Also does your view leave room for the idea that harder times make for stronger Christians walking in a deeper faith? You know the ole refiners fire thing? Is that what you mean by the world getting darker but the church gets brighter?

Literalist-Luke
Mar 26th 2008, 02:47 AM
To be honest with you, I don't even know what post millenialism is perhaps I'll look into it. I've been called a replacement theologist, Kingdom Now person, and many others. But what I've found is that people throw around those words just to make themselves feel better. Its kind of like name calling from elementary school. I'm not saying you are doing that, its just what I've found to be true.

For me personally, I will give scriptures with everything that I say. People can then look them up themselves and decide for themselves. Its pretty simple that way. If they see the things I see, then that is great, if not then that is ok as well. Also, I try to answer any questions that someone might have about how they see it.Post-Millennial simply means that the 2nd Coming occurs at the end of the Millennium. The idea is that it's the Church's job to institute the Millennium by establishing Christ's Kingdom here on the earth and once that is successfully accomplished, He will appear from Heaven to take over the Kingdom that the Church has prepared for Him per His instructions in the Great Commission.

(BTW, I'm a Post-Tribulational Pre-Millenialist if you wonder.)

covenant mom
Mar 26th 2008, 02:52 AM
Ephesians 4
11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

When reading this I take it to mean that God has placed people in the verse 11 roles to lead the church until we all reach............ meaning it is something those guys are going to be doing to the end of life as we know it. There are some members of the body of Christ who are probably to that maturity level, but if we are waiting on Jesus to come back until everyone (even in our small church body of 30) to all be on this same spiritual page...He may never come back. Okay that sounds aweful, but I think you understand the humor I find in the idea. (I'm not mocking your view here, I promise)

However I'm guessing you see this as saying that @ some point the church as a whole will be at a perfect maturity level thus ushering in God's kingdom on earth. Am I understanding correctly? If so, I guess it's just how you interpret the verses.

covenant mom
Mar 26th 2008, 02:56 AM
Isa 53? It was talking about what Jesus did for us on the cross. I'm not sure where that ties into Hebrews? :help:

covenant mom
Mar 26th 2008, 03:06 AM
for the seal explanations:
Head to Zechariah 6 and Deuteronomy 32.


I can see that actually. I was very familiar with Zech 6 but hadn't seen the Deut passage before or @ least tied it together.

third hero
Mar 26th 2008, 01:41 PM
This is what I'm seeing when studying Rev ch 6. What do you guys think?






I declare the end from the beginning, and from long ago what is not yet done, saying: My plan will take place, and I will do all My will



The First Seal on the Scroll ~ Anti-Christ




1 Then I saw the Lamb open one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2 I looked, and there was a white horse. The horseman on it had a bow; a crown was given to him, and he went out as a victor to conquer.

First dilemma. Pigeon-holing. Show me where in the Bible, anywhere, when evil has the color white attached to it. No where in prophecy is any evil described in white. Even in this book, when it talks of Satan or the beasts, they are not described with hte color white. "White" in bible prophecy is usually attached to holiness. This is why I say that this first beasthas somethingto do with God, because nothing evil has that color attached.

My interpretation of the first beast. The Church. It is white. The church is white by the blood of Lord Jesus. It is given authority. Where is this authority given from? Where is the horse? In heaven? Then if it is in heaven, and it is given authority, then only the ruler of heaven can give the rider of that horse that authority. Hence, God gives the rider of the white horse authority. The mission of the white horse rider? To conquer. This makes complete sense when we figure what he is trying to conquer. Most notably, whose world is this? Is it not the kingdom of darkness that rules this planet right now? Is not the purpose of the Gospel to conquere this world of darkness with the Light of God? If all of this is true, and it is, then the only logical conclusion is to say that this is a restatement of the purpose of the church throughout the end times, to go forth conquering and seeking to conquer.




The Second Seal ~ War & no peace




3 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" 4 Then another horse went out, a fiery red one, and its horseman was empowered to take peace from the earth, so that people would slaughter one another. And a large sword was given to him.

Wars have happened over all history, and to simply say that this is war is to mis the point entirely. This is violence, which like war, has existed since the fall of man. The only difference is that this type of violence will invade all of the places on earth that men have felt that have been traditionally safehavens.

For instance, many move from the city to the suburbs in order to flee the violence found in the cities. According to this propecy, not even the suburbs would be safe, because violence wil overtake all of the peaceful places on earth, whereas man will begin to believe that there are no safe places left on this earth.



The Third Seal ~ Famine/Food shortages/High food prices


5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" And I looked, and there was a black horse. The horseman on it had a balance scale in his hand. 6 Then I heard something like a voice among the four living creatures say, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius—but do not harm the olive oil and the wine."

No comment




The Fourth Seal ~ ¼ earth under Death’s authority & killed via war/famine/plague/disease




7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8 And I looked, and there was a pale green horse. The horseman on it was named Death, and Hades was following after him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill by the sword, by famine, by plague, and by the wild animals of the earth.

No comment.



The Fifth Seal ~ Christian Martyrs


9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of God’s word and the testimony they had. 10 They cried out with a loud voice: "O Lord, holy and true, how long until You judge and avenge our blood from those who live on the earth?" 11 So a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer until [the number of] their fellow slaves and their brothers, who were going to be killed just as they had been, would be completed.

Point completly missed. The whole point of the fifthy seal being broken is to make the prophecy that God will not avenge any of his fallen people until all of them that are destined to die are fallen. Only at that point will God use His greaet Wrath and avenge the blood of the saints.



The sixth seal is showing the celestial signs that occur immediately AFTER the tribulation & prior to the DOTL This is also tied in with the 2nd coming of Jesus, our blessed Hope! See Matt 24:29- 31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days: The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the celestial powers will be shaken. 30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the peoples of the earth will mourn; and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

Joel 2-3 puts this celestrial sign into perspective. In Joel, there are two signs. The first one is this.

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. -Joel 2:31

During this passage, God is telling us through Joel that this period, when the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red, that He will pour out His Spirit on all flesh, and this will precede the day of His wrath.

If you look to the beginning of that very same chapter, another sign is used.

The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: -Joel 2:10

Nowthe context of this sign is that the Day of the Lod is upon Jerusalem. It is used when God is using Joel to describe when His army invades and slays men. This is truly the DAy of God's wrath, much different than the sign of the moon turning red.

My point? This sign in Revelation 6 is a reminder of the sign that is mentioned in Joel 2 concerning the pouring out of God's Spirit on all flesh, a sign that Peter mentions in Acts 2.

Special note: Who says in this passage that the time of the Lord's wrath is here then? The wicked. The wicked are always wrong. Remember that. They even got the signs wrong.



The Sixth Seal ~ Celestial signs immediately after tribulation which precede DOTL that begins after Christ’s 2nd coming that occurs now. This is also when the rapture would take place b/c it is closely tied to the 2nd coming.





12 Then I saw Him open the sixth seal. A violent earthquake occurred; the sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair; the entire moon became like blood; 13 the stars of heaven fell to the earth as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a high wind; 14 the sky separated like a scroll being rolled up; and every mountain and island was moved from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the military commanders, the rich, the powerful, and every slave and free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of Their wrath has come! And who is able to stand?"(seeMalachi 3:2)(see Isaiah 13:11)(see Zephaniah 1:18)


To understand this last sign, one must know what is about to happen next. The 144,000 are sealed as a result of the sixth seal. Consider this, a billy graham crusade where 144,00 virgin male Israelites are saved. This is what happens after the sign is released for all men to see.

This has nothing to do with the Great Tribulation. IN fact, the Great Tribulation is not described until the seven trumpets are blown, which is subsequent to the seals being released. Moreover, where is Christ when the seals are released? Is He not in heaven, released those seals? (Read Rev 5 for that one). This is what happens when someone attempts to pigeon-hole all of the end time events into the seven seals. It can not happen. All they do as add to what is there, and miss the complete meaning of the seals.

vinsight4u8
Mar 26th 2008, 02:30 PM
I can see that actually. I was very familiar with Zech 6 but hadn't seen the Deut passage before or @ least tied it together.


Great!!
Here's how I see things...

Zechariah chapter 5 ends with showing us that Shinar must return to power and be a wicked place again.
Zechariah chapter 6 shows us the rising of the nation of Shinar.
referred to here as the north country

Jeremiah 46:10 and Jeremiah 10:22 show the north country place to be:
where the Euphrates River is located
where the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar came from and took Judah
/so =today the land of Iraq


Moses (Deuteronomy 32) gave Israel a song as to their end days. The end days would involve a nation that would be their sealed up enemy.
Deuteronomy 32:34
sealed
laid up
in store
with Me
see the KJV


Rev. 6
John saw the would be evil nation coming forth.

white horse - King Faisal
the first ruler of Iraq

Zechariah had seen the white horses follow the black ones to the north country (Euphrates River) so there is where the rider must get on the horses.

black - ended up in the north country
white followed behind them

so in Iraq - are white and black horses
that once waited in the north country for riders to be unsealed

vinsight4u8
Mar 26th 2008, 02:35 PM
For the second seal?

that they - as in the rider slays and gets slain himself

the slaying is within the nation of Iraq

This seal is already opened too.

that they = as in Iraqis
shall kill one another

the second seal rider?
Abdul Qassim
(slew down the monarchy of Iraq)
was later slain
by the next ruler of Iraq

vinsight4u8
Mar 26th 2008, 02:40 PM
The 144,000 will be sealed just about the time of the opening of the fourth seal - for the 4th seal is when the man of sin will begin to rule Iraq.
>he is the Chaldean of Habakkuk 2's prophecy that will gather the nations unto himself
> Nebuchadnezzar's coming back - and doomed to the lake of fire one day
son of perdition
never gave up his pride or his many gods

Literalist-Luke
Mar 26th 2008, 03:52 PM
Show me where in the Bible, anywhere, when evil has the color white attached to it. No where in prophecy is any evil described in white. Even in this book, when it talks of Satan or the beasts, they are not described with the color white. "White" in bible prophecy is usually attached to holiness. This is why I say that this first beast has something to do with God, because nothing evil has that color attached.Your point is well taken, but it should also be pointed out that nowhere in the Bible are we specifically told the color white is automatically exclusive of all symbolism of evil. Your argument is an argument only from silence. In fact, there are two reason for taking this first rider as a symbol of evil, aside from the horse’s color.

The first one is simply because of consistency. As you know, we have three series of “sevens” in Revelation, the seals, the trumpets, and the bowls for a total of 21 events. If we accept your suggested interpretation, that would mean that of the 21 events, 20 of them are unpleasant events that involve some kind of disaster, and yet somehow, this first one is to be seen as a positive influence. So we actually have opposing arguments from the same reasoning: You say it is inconsistent to assign the color white to evil, and I can see that point. However, it is also inconsistent to say that this one event is a positive influence when all the other 20 events in Revelation in the series of sevens are negative, even disastrous influences.

The second reason is because of the Olivet Discourse. There is a distinctive parallelism between the seals and the sequence of events that Jesus gave us in Matthew 24:4-29. This cannot be a mere coincidence. It would seem that the burden would be to prove why we should not see them as being parallel when they appear to be a perfect match.

(I do appreciate that you did not use the worn out argument that the first rider is Jesus, like so many others have done, and consequently ignoring that the first rider is wearing a “stephanos” crown (victor’s crown) as opposed to the rider in Revelation 19 who wears a “diadem” crown.)
My interpretation of the first beast. The Church. It is white. The church is white by the blood of Lord Jesus. It is given authority. Where is this authority given from? Where is the horse? In heaven? Then if it is in heaven, and it is given authority, then only the ruler of heaven can give the rider of that horse that authority. Hence, God gives the rider of the white horse authority. The mission of the white horse rider? To conquer. This makes complete sense when we figure what he is trying to conquer. Most notably, whose world is this? Is it not the kingdom of darkness that rules this planet right now? Is not the purpose of the Gospel to conquere this world of darkness with the Light of God? If all of this is true, and it is, then the only logical conclusion is to say that this is a restatement of the purpose of the church throughout the end times, to go forth conquering and seeking to conquer. Again, I see your point, but it could just as easily be suggested the antichrist is given authority by the “prince of this world” (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:30;&version=72;). We actually have a statement of that very thing occurring in Revelation 13:2b – “The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.” It could also be suggested that the purpose of the horse’s white color would be indicative of the world’s perception of the antichrist, for there will be many who will accept him as some sort of “god” or a higher kind of being.

So I guess the bottom line comes down to why we should not view the seals as being parallel with Matthew 24:4-29. If you can answer that question, it’ll go a long way to making your case.
Wars have happened over all history, and to simply say that this is war is to miss the point entirely. This is violence, which like war, has existed since the fall of man. The only difference is that this type of violence will invade all of the places on earth that men have felt that have been traditionally safehavens.

For instance, many move from the city to the suburbs in order to flee the violence found in the cities. According to this propecy, not even the suburbs would be safe, because violence wil overtake all of the peaceful places on earth, whereas man will begin to believe that there are no safe places left on this earth. I can go along with this.
Point completly missed. The whole point of the fifth seal being broken is to make the prophecy that God will not avenge any of his fallen people until all of them that are destined to die are fallen. Only at that point will God use His greaet Wrath and avenge the blood of the saints.I can go along with that too. And to amplify your point, I would also suggest that an additional point to this seal is that, by martyring believers, those who are doing so are only adding to their own judgment.
Joel 2-3 puts this celestrial sign into perspective. In Joel, there are two signs. The first one is this.

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. -Joel 2:31

During this passage, God is telling us through Joel that this period, when the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red, that He will pour out His Spirit on all flesh, and this will precede the day of His wrath.

If you look to the beginning of that very same chapter, another sign is used.

The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: -Joel 2:10So far so good.

Now the context of this sign is that the Day of the Lod is upon Jerusalem.Where do you get that the Day of the Lord is upon Jerusalem? Are you saying that Jerusalem is to be the object of the Day of the Lord’s wrath? Or are you saying that Jerusalem is where the wrath goes out from to the rest of the world?
It is used when God is using Joel to describe when His army invades and slays men. This is truly the DAy of God's wrath, much different than the sign of the moon turning red.Right, the celestial signs are only an indicator that the Day of the Lord is about to begin, not that it has already begun.
My point? This sign in Revelation 6 is a reminder of the sign that is mentioned in Joel 2 concerning the pouring out of God's Spirit on all flesh, a sign that Peter mentions in Acts 2.An important detail, however, is that Peter does not call the events of Acts 2 the actual fulfillment of the Joel passage. He tells the crowd that the sign they were observing, of believers speaking in tongues, is “what Joel spoke of”, to give them a reference for context so that they would know that what they were seeing was truly from God Himself, but there was obviously no celestial signs that day.

Notice the stark contrast with all of these references in the Gospels (including Luke’s, the same author who wrote Acts):

Matthew 2:15 - “where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: ‘Out of Egypt I called my son.’ ”

Matthew 2:17 - “Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:”

Matthew 2:23 - “and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: ‘He will be called a Nazarene.’ ”

Matthew 13:14 - “In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”

Matthew 13:35 - “So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: ‘I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.’ ”

Matthew 26:54 - “But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

Matthew 26:56 - “But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled. ‘Then all the disciples deserted him and fled.”

Matthew 27:9 - “Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: ‘They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel…”

Mark 13:4 - “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”

Mark 14:49 - “Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.”

Luke 1:1 - “Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,”

Luke 4:21 - “He began by saying to them, ‘Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.’ ”

Luke 18:31 - “Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, ‘We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.’ ”

Luke 21:24 - “They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

Luke 22:37 - “It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

Luke 24:44 - “He said to them, ‘This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.’ ”

John 17:12 - “While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.”

John 18:9 - “This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: ‘I have not lost one of those you gave me.’ ”

John 19:24 - “ ‘Let's not tear it,’ they said to one another. ‘Let's decide by lot who will get it.’ This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled that said, ‘They divided my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment.’ So this is what the soldiers did.”

John 19:28 - “Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, ‘I am thirsty.’ ”

John 19:36 - “These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: ‘Not one of his bones will be broken,’ "

The Gospel writers go to great pains to point out, over and over again, that “this is the fulfillment of what was written”. Yet here in Acts 2, Peter does not use the word “fulfillment”. Why would there be a difference here? Wouldn’t that seem inconsistent? It is because the events of Acts 2 were not the actual fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy. The “speaking in tongues” is what Joel was “speaking of”, but there is more to come, obviously.
Special note: Who says in this passage that the time of the Lord's wrath is here then? The wicked. The wicked are always wrong. Remember that. They even got the signs wrong.Then what are we to make of this statement: “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

It appears that you might not realize that they are actually seeing the newly returned Jesus with their own two eyes at this point. “Hide from the face of him who sits on the throne!” But, just for the sake of discussion, if they are wrong as you suggest, then what are we to do with this passage? Why did John bother to include it if we are to simply discard it?
To understand this last sign, one must know what is about to happen next. The 144,000 are sealed as a result of the sixth seal. Consider this, a billy graham crusade where 144,00 virgin male Israelites are saved. This is what happens after the sign is released for all men to see.Actually, this 144,000 being saved is the salvation of Israel in Petra/Bosrah in conjunction with the 2nd Coming. This is the Remnant of Israel that Paul spoke of in Romans 9-11.
This has nothing to do with the Great Tribulation. In fact, the Great Tribulation is not described until the seven trumpets are blown, which is subsequent to the seals being released.Going back to the parallel with Matthew 24, you’re going to have to offer some proof to support this.
Moreover, where is Christ when the seals are released? Is He not in heaven, released those seals? (Read Rev 5 for that one). Of course. Even during the worst period in all of human history, He’s still on His throne, and He’s still in charge. Why is that a problem?
This is what happens when someone attempts to pigeon-hole all of the end time events into the seven seals. It can not happen. All they do as add to what is there, and miss the complete meaning of the seals.This kind of blanket statement is only counter-productive. Can we stick to comparing Scriptures so we can find some objective conclusions?

Truthinlove
Mar 26th 2008, 04:05 PM
HI Cmom and LL :D
Yes, I am following you guys :)

Literalist-Luke
Mar 26th 2008, 04:08 PM
Zechariah chapter 5 ends with showing us that Shinar must return to power and be a wicked place again.
Zechariah chapter 6 shows us the rising of the nation of Shinar.
referred to here as the north country

Jeremiah 46:10 and Jeremiah 10:22 show the north country place to be:
where the Euphrates River is located
where the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar came from and took Judah
/so =today the land of Iraq


Moses (Deuteronomy 32) gave Israel a song as to their end days. The end days would involve a nation that would be their sealed up enemy.
Deuteronomy 32:34
sealed
laid up
in store
with Me
see the KJVOK, I can go along with you so far…
Rev. 6
John saw the would be evil nation coming forth.

white horse - King Faisal
the first ruler of IraqKing Faisal? First of all, he’s in Saudi Arabia, and second what about him makes him the Antichrist? He’s done nothing to fulfill the conditions that the Apostle Paul gave us for identifying the antichrist.
Zechariah had seen the white horses follow the black ones to the north country (Euphrates River) so there is where the rider must get on the horses.

black - ended up in the north country
white followed behind them

so in Iraq - are white and black horses
that once waited in the north country for riders to be unsealedI can appreciate the tendency to assume that the horses here in Zechariah 6 are equivalent with the ones in Revelation 6, but there are some important differences. First, the horses in Zechariah are pulling chariots as opposed to the ones in Revelation who are carrying riders, secondly, the horses in Zechariah go to a specific area, while the ones in Revelation go throughout the earth, thirdly, the horses in Zechariah are spoken of in the plural, each chariot being pulled by horseS while the ones in Revelation are single horses, and lastly, their colors don’t match. They’re out of order, plus the “gray” horse of Revelation is not the same color as the “speckled” horses in Zechariah.
For the second seal?

that they - as in the rider slays and gets slain himself

the slaying is within the nation of Iraq

This seal is already opened too.

that they = as in Iraqis
shall kill one another

the second seal rider?
Abdul Qassim
(slew down the monarchy of Iraq)
was later slain
by the next ruler of Iraq http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/twitch.gif There is a huge amount of assumption going on here. How do you support all of this Scripturally?
The 144,000 will be sealed just about the time of the opening of the fourth seal - for the 4th seal is when the man of sin will begin to rule Iraq.
>he is the Chaldean of Habakkuk 2's prophecy that will gather the nations unto himself
> Nebuchadnezzar's coming back - and doomed to the lake of fire one day
son of perdition
never gave up his pride or his many godsThe sequence of events given to us in Revelation has the sealing of the 144,000 occurring in conjunction with the 2nd Coming. It’s the salvation of the Israeli Remnant spoken of by Paul in Romans 9-11. You’re attempting to connect the 144,000 with the fourth seal, but there is quite a bit of distance between the two. How do you justify your conclusion? What’s the parallel between the two events?

Literalist-Luke
Mar 26th 2008, 04:10 PM
HI Cmom and LL :D
Yes, I am following you guys :)Hey, it's great to see you here! ;)

Truthinlove
Mar 26th 2008, 04:14 PM
you too...I see Frank and God seeker on here as well...tooo funny

Literalist-Luke
Mar 26th 2008, 04:21 PM
you too...I see Frank and God seeker on here as well...tooo funnyReally!? Oh, this is great! I can't wait to "talk" to them!

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/woohoo.gif


OK, sorry, guys....http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/thtopic.gif

third hero
Mar 26th 2008, 06:04 PM
Ah, a new comer eh? Welcome.

ANd now for the fun and games.


Your point is well taken, but it should also be pointed out that nowhere in the Bible are we specifically told the color white is automatically exclusive of all symbolism of evil. Your argument is an argument only from silence. In fact, there are two reason for taking this first rider as a symbol of evil, aside from the horse’s color.

The first one is simply because of consistency. As you know, we have three series of “sevens” in Revelation, the seals, the trumpets, and the bowls for a total of 21 events. If we accept your suggested interpretation, that would mean that of the 21 events, 20 of them are unpleasant events that involve some kind of disaster, and yet somehow, this first one is to be seen as a positive influence. So we actually have opposing arguments from the same reasoning: You say it is inconsistent to assign the color white to evil, and I can see that point. However, it is also inconsistent to say that this one event is a positive influence when all the other 20 events in Revelation in the series of sevens are negative, even disastrous influences.

COnsistency is the one thing that is not found consistantly in scripture. All of the prophecies concerning Jesus were spuratically spread throughout the prophetic books, and there was really no differenciation between the suffering King and ther Conquering King, until Jesus came as the suffering King. Before Jesus walked this earth, we had no idea that Christ woulkd have to advents. There was no mentioning of that in scripture. So, consistency is not even at play here. Besides, have you read Isaiah? It takes th whole new Testament alone to decipher which witch is which when it comes to Jesus the Messiah. Both the conquering King and the Suffering King are described in that book, with not one ounce of consistency in it.

Now, the 21 major events that are mentioned in Revelation, I take it you are talking about the seven seals, trumpets and vials right? Not all of th em are bad. Take a look at seals 5-7. What actually happens during the breaking of those seals? Not much, just one celestrial sign and a massive hailstorm. the fifth seal gives us a promise by God, saying that He will not seek vengeance until the last of the Brethern who are destined to die are dead. How is that bad? This is the same as the rainbow in Genesis. At the end of the sixth seal, 144,000 Jews are converted and sealed by the Holy Spirit. How is that bad?

The people of the earth ends up jumping to conclusions, thinking that the day of the Lord is at hand. Notice that the angelic hosts, who would know better than us, don't even reference His coming until chapter 11, and we have the seven seals broken and the seven trumpets already played by then. Therefore, if we want to use consistency here, then we can say that the inhabitants of the earth are consistantly wrong, because they were hiding in the mountains for no reason. Besides, in chapter 16, we know what happens to the mountains when the Day of the Lord really happens, and let me tell you, hiding in them will do the inhabitants of the earth no good anyways.


The second reason is because of the Olivet Discourse. There is a distinctive parallelism between the seals and the sequence of events that Jesus gave us in Matthew 24:4-29. This cannot be a mere coincidence. It would seem that the burden would be to prove why we should not see them as being parallel when they appear to be a perfect match.

To say that there are not any parallels between Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 is to truly be blind. However, to broadbrush the entirety of Matthew 24 into Revelation 6 is equally unwise. Notice that Revelation 14-16:14 matches up perfectly with Matthew 24:22-28? How about Revelation 16:15 matching up with Matthew 24:29-31? If this is true, and it is, then how does these two passages that I have just pointed out match with Revelation 6? How about Revelation 12-13? Doesn't it line up with Matthew 24:15-21? Is not Jerusalem in Judea? Are they not to flee, like Israel does in chapter 12? So if this is true, where is the equivalent in chapter 6? The only thing that happens to Israel is that 144,00 of them are saved and sealed by the seal of God, which is the Holy Spirit.

My point is this. To be consistent in scripture is to see what the scriptures tell and consistently pointing that out, instead of trying to see Revelation as a jigsaw puzzle and piece them together with other scripture. Believe me, the scriptures tell the tale for themselves without our help. All we need to do is line them up.

For instance. Matthew 24:15-21 lines up with Zechariah 14:1-5, which lines up with Revelation 12-13. Put those scriptures together and we have one complete story of the first Day of the Great Tribulation. This is my point.


(I do appreciate that you did not use the worn out argument that the first rider is Jesus, like so many others have done, and consequently ignoring that the first rider is wearing a “stephanos” crown (victor’s crown) as opposed to the rider in Revelation 19 who wears a “diadem” crown.)Again, I see your point, but it could just as easily be suggested the antichrist is given authority by the “prince of this world” (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:30;&version=72;). We actually have a statement of that very thing occurring in Revelation 13:2b – “The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.” It could also be suggested that the purpose of the horse’s white color would be indicative of the world’s perception of the antichrist, for there will be many who will accept him as some sort of “god” or a higher kind of being.

Well, instread of trying to figure out what the white horse meant, I just asked God. He gave me the answer and I found reasons why He did. The color white is something that I use a lot because most of these prophecies were given to the prophets in either dream or vision form, which is very symbolic. Every detail of any vision or dreams holds a meaning. In this case, in Revelation, every time the color white is used, with the exception for chapter 6, it is linked to Jesus or His Father. It is linked to Holiness and Godliness. It is linked to cleanliness. It is pure, like the description of Jesus's hair. That symbolism is why I have to conclude that the color white is symbolic for Holiness, because in every other example of when that color was used in both the OT and NT, that's what it meant.

Moreover, it does not make sense that Jesus would be riding off on a white horse while at the same time breaking the rest of the seals in heaven. So, the Jesus thing really doesn ot make sense to me.


So I guess the bottom line comes down to why we should not view the seals as being parallel with Matthew 24:4-29. If you can answer that question, it’ll go a long way to making your case.

Matthew 24:3-14 goes hand and hand with Revelation 6. That, I can not deny. However, the rest of Matthew 24 better fits other portions of Revelation, and the 6th chapter does not cover it. That is my point.



Where do you get that the Day of the Lord is upon Jerusalem? Are you saying that Jerusalem is to be the object of the Day of the Lord’s wrath? Or are you saying that Jerusalem is where the wrath goes out from to the rest of the world?

Judgment first happens to Jerusalem, and then out of Jerusalem does God's wrath proceed to the rest of the world. take a look at these scriptures. Zechariah 14. We see a sequence here.

1. Jerusalem is ransacked.
2. The Lord comes.
3. The Lord is King of the entire earth, and Jerusalem is His capitol
4. The world is judged, and the survivors are to go to Jerusalem annually to worship Him there.

In the OT, and even in Revelation (chapters 11-12), we see Jerusalem being judged before the rest of the world, and there is even a scripture stating that Jeuss will come out of Jerusalem to slaughter His enemies. I think it was in Zechariah 12, but I am not sure. So, I am saying both.


Right, the celestial signs are only an indicator that the Day of the Lord is about to begin, not that it has already begun.An important detail, however, is that Peter does not call the events of Acts 2 the actual fulfillment of the Joel passage. He tells the crowd that the sign they were observing, of believers speaking in tongues, is “what Joel spoke of”, to give them a reference for context so that they would know that what they were seeing was truly from God Himself, but there was obviously no celestial signs that day.


You bring up a very valid point. Yes Peter made reference to it, but the sign did not happen at Penticost. The pouring out of God's spirit did happen, but the fulfillment of Joel 2 did not. That was the closest thing that the disciples had to explain the event at Penticost. So, I will agree with you there. Also, I had suspected that the Actual fulfillment of Joel 2 would be found in Revelation, and if my research is correct, then chapter 6 is the only point where it could happen.


It appears that you might not realize that they are actually seeing the newly returned Jesus with their own two eyes at this point. “Hide from the face of him who sits on the throne!” But, just for the sake of discussion, if they are wrong as you suggest, then what are we to do with this passage? Why did John bother to include it if we are to simply discard it?Actually, this 144,000 being saved is the salvation of Israel in Petra/Bosrah in conjunction with the 2nd Coming. This is the Remnant of Israel that Paul spoke of in Romans 9-11.Going back to the parallel with Matthew 24, you’re going to have to offer some proof to support this.Of course. Even during the worst period in all of human history, He’s still on His throne, and He’s still in charge. Why is that a problem?This kind of blanket statement is only counter-productive. Can we stick to comparing Scriptures so we can find some objective conclusions?

I doubt it. Take a look at Revelation 16. First, let's look at chapter 14. from verse 14-20, we see two gatherings. One of the righteous, and one of the wicked. Now, fast forward to chapter 16, preferably verses 14-21. We have now the wicked being gathered at Armageddon, and the righteous being gathered by Christ himself, (verse 15). what happens to the mountains when the last bowl of God's wrath is poured out? The mountains are completely leveled. In chapter 6, the mountains are only moved. This is one detail that can not be ignored. In chapter 6, this is not the time of God's wrath, because of what is stated in chapter 16. They are not seeing th Lord's face. They are seeing the sun, moon and stars change inexplicably. This caused the world great fear and panic. Meanwhile, in chapter 16, the world is drastically changed, with every city being leveled except for Babylon and Jerusalem. (Refer to zechariah 14 for the reason I included Jerusalem). When the people see Chrisst's face, they will not run to the mountains because the mountains wil be crumbling at that time.

covenant mom
Mar 26th 2008, 06:39 PM
HI Cmom and LL :D
Yes, I am following you guys :)
I'm sooo happy you are here!!!! :pp:hug::kiss:

vinsight4u8
Mar 26th 2008, 09:17 PM
OK, I can go along with you so far…King Faisal? First of all, he’s in Saudi Arabia, and second what about him makes him the Antichrist? He’s done nothing to fulfill the conditions that the Apostle Paul gave us for identifying the antichrist.I can appreciate the tendency to assume that the horses here in Zechariah 6 are equivalent with the ones in Revelation 6, but there are some important differences. First, the horses in Zechariah are pulling chariots as opposed to the ones in Revelation who are carrying riders, secondly, the horses in Zechariah go to a specific area, while the ones in Revelation go throughout the earth, thirdly, the horses in Zechariah are spoken of in the plural, each chariot being pulled by horseS while the ones in Revelation are single horses, and lastly, their colors don’t match. They’re out of order, plus the “gray” horse of Revelation is not the same color as the “speckled” horses in Zechariah. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/twitch.gif There is a huge amount of assumption going on here. How do you support all of this Scripturally?The sequence of events given to us in Revelation has the sealing of the 144,000 occurring in conjunction with the 2nd Coming. It’s the salvation of the Israeli Remnant spoken of by Paul in Romans 9-11. You’re attempting to connect the 144,000 with the fourth seal, but there is quite a bit of distance between the two. How do you justify your conclusion? What’s the parallel between the two events?

In Zechariah chapter 5:
an ephah is returned to Shinar
Why?
to rebuild the kingdom of Shinar where the piece orginally came from

Why?
Because the land of Shinar must be consumed as to even the timber and the stones of it.
Why
Because of the 20 by 10 curse on its land.

Daniel 2 shows that when kingdoms fall - the pieces then hunt the earth for a place to rebuild again. Shinar fell to the Persians and the Medes - so the broken pieces of Babylon now hunted the earth for a place to rebuild.
Daniel 2 shows us that the wind is what carries the fallen pieces of an empire - so in Zech. 5, we find that same scenario.

see Daniel 2:35

So - Babylon earned the 20 by 10 curse and God brought the curse to set on the land of Babylon (Shinar) as one day that curse of her total consumption must take place. To do this feat, prophecy continues with the story of the future land of Shinar for the endtime.

When?
After the mountains of brass have come to be.
Daniel 2 - third empire (brass)
Daniel 11, Daniel 8 - also shows that the Greek Empire area will have a last days role to play out.


I'm using the KJV...
Zechariah 5 begins with why there is a curse.
a 20 by 10 curse

the size of the porch at the holy site temple
20 by 10 cubits

So as Nebuchadnezzar entered into God's house - God sent the curse to Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom of Shinar.

Zechariah chapter 6- deals with horses - in chariots. The KJV shows the bay horses ask to go - as in they want to leave the chariot and wander the earth.
Notice that the north country will quiet those horses.

The bay horses are the spirit of the fear of the LORD - when silenced - Israel is taken by the wicked.
As in - the north country will take the land of Israel captive.


white - the spirit of wisdom and understanding )shows one gets a crown and begins the kingdom (in the land of Shinar)

red - the spirit of counsel and might (strength)

and so on

see Proverbs 8 and Isaiah 11:1-2

Zechariah was told that - these are the four spirits of the heavens.

Banzy
Mar 26th 2008, 11:05 PM
Wow, this thread really took off...

Anyways, back to the conversations with covenant mom and literalist Luke.

First off, covenant mom.

Yep, I know how answers lead to questions. Ok though, thats how we learn.

You asked: What would cause this gradual brightening?

Simple answer: Jesus. He is the one building the church. Remember what I said about the Stone, becoming the mountain, then filling the whole earth. Thats what I see. Brighter and brighter. As far as Eph. 4 goes. You see, I still believe that apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers and pastors exist today. Sure, most would agree on the evangelists, teachers and pastors, but I believe as a lot of people do, that apostles and prophets still exist today. But their main function, the function of all five is to teach their giftings to everyone else so that we all are at the same level. IE, the teacher teaches how to teach, the pastor teaches how to care for the flock, the evangelist teaches how to spread the gospel, and on and on till we all are fully equipped.

Isaiah 53 and how it ties in with Hebrews. If you read Dan. 9:24 you see that 6 things were determined. If you read Isaiah 53 you see how Christ fulfilled those things and then Hebrews explains them as well in the New Testament. Thus the 70th week of Daniel is over.

To: Literalist-Luke

You mentioned that Post-Mill says that its the churchs job to institute the Mill., by establishing Christ's Kingdom here on earth then He will appear, etc. etc.

Well, then I guess I'm not a Post-Mill. Its Jesus job to do all of that. Actually, the Holy Spirit doing it. Christ's Kingdom is here and thats the point I've been trying to make. Its in you, its in covenant mom, its in me, its in all of us who call on the Name of the Lord.

However, I do believe He is coming back when there is an awesome looking church on the planet, as Ephesians 4 says. But not only there, Hebrews tells us exactly what Jesus is doing now. He is waiting. Acts tells us that Heaven must contain Him until the restoration of all things. See I kind of view it this way. God did His work and then rested. Jesus did His work and is currently resting. I believe the Holy Spirit now is working and will complete His work in a people, then He will finally rest.

You see, its a victorious message! Mainly for the simple fact of His victory on the cross and over death.:pp

quiet dove
Mar 27th 2008, 12:23 AM
You see, its a victorious message! Mainly for the simple fact of His victory on the cross and over death.

But is has been a victorious message for each and every soul ever saved, not because the Church somehow at the last is apparently better than is has ever been in the past, to the point of a transformation that will bring Christ back to a perfected Church. How is it that this victory is only to come at the last, is not that the victory with in every believer since Pentecost?

Truthinlove
Mar 27th 2008, 01:30 AM
I'm sooo happy you are here!!!! :pp:hug::kiss:

:D :kiss: Thanks, me too....like de ja vu huh? hehe

Literalist-Luke
Mar 27th 2008, 06:14 AM
This spirit appears as a flawed counterfeit of the white horse of Jesus from Revelation 19 going forth “conquering” with great success, although not militarily as you would at first think (until you read the 2nd seal). This spirit's actions seem to have brought us the Catholic Church's deception of a counterfeit of Jesus' true teachings beginning in the 4th century CE. Confirmation of this is found in the Olivet Discourse where Jesus gives us a parallel list of developments. The first thing he mentions is that many will come “in his name” saying he is the Messiah and they will deceive many (Mt 24:4-5). What other group comes in the name of Jesus and tells people Jesus is Christ but does not tell them the whole story, deceiving many? Remember that one third of the world is Christian and following the unbiblical doctrines of the RCC to some degree. For example, even many Protestants rest on Sunday following the tradition decreed by the Pope rather than on Saturday following the precedent of the Bible.Your point about this rider not being Jesus is certainly well taken, and I also am certainly aware of the centuries-old theory of the Catholic Church being the source of the Antichrist, seeing the (no-longer-occurring) persecution even to the point of death of "heretics" who dared to read their own Bible for themselves. There is another theory that I think you would find very interesting. If it's not too presumptuous of me, I'd like to refer you to this thread - "Antichrist's Hijacking of Islam"

Let me know what you think.

vinsight4u8
Mar 27th 2008, 07:50 AM
white = in righteousness He judges and makes war

That is why Jesus is shown riding on a white horse.

vinsight4u8
Mar 27th 2008, 07:52 AM
Only the 4th seal is the man of sin starting to show up as the ruler of Iraq.
5th seal = the great tribulation
6th seal =end of the great tribulation
and the rapture of the church


4th seal - see Habakkuk chapter 2
the death and desires to be as hell man
at the end it shall speak

vinsight4u8
Mar 27th 2008, 08:25 AM
Rev. 7 is like a summary part. It takes us back to the place of about the start of the 4th seal and ends just before the 7th seal is opened.

John gets more clarification of the most important section of Rev. 6.
To understand how things unfold here go to Ezekiel chapter 7.
it speaks also of - four corners and time to set a mark on some of Israel for protection.
Protection from what?
God is about to send the wickedest person against the land of Israel to take her by
sword
famine
pestilence

=as in more than one type of destruction method

This slayer will be the one that is the time of trouble against Isael.


Ezekiel chapter 7
the end is come upon the four corners
recompense upon thee all thine abominations

see Isaiah 65:6
as it shows God will not keep silence till this part is done


Ezekiel 7:7
day of trouble near

7:15
the
sword
famine
pestilence

/notice only the 4th seal rider has several ways to slay

Ezekiel 7:24
will bring the worst of the heathen


So now what must be done for Nebuchadnezzar is coming to take Judah?
Ezekiel 9:11
the man
clothed with linen

/notice Rev. 15 shows the seven angels leave heaven and wear linen
are girded = have pockets
Rev. 7 - having the seal of the living God


Ezekiel 9
the one in linen has an inkhorn by his side
will set and mark
then returns to God to report what was done

Rev. 7 - John hears the numbers that were sealed
=John hears the all done marking people for protection report?

Literalist-Luke
Mar 27th 2008, 05:55 PM
In Zechariah chapter 5:an ephah is returned to Shinar Why?
to rebuild the kingdom of Shinar where the piece orginally came from Why? Because the land of Shinar must be consumed as to even the timber and the stones of it. Why Because of the 20 by 10 curse on its land.OK, I can go along with this. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/nod.gif
Daniel 2 shows that when kingdoms fall - the pieces then hunt the earth for a place to rebuild again. Shinar fell to the Persians and the Medes - so the broken pieces of Babylon now hunted the earth for a place to rebuild. Daniel 2 shows us that the wind is what carries the fallen pieces of an empire - so in Zech. 5, we find that same scenario. see Daniel 2:35The problem with this suggestion is that Daniel 2:35 describes the wind blowing away the debris of all four kingdoms all at once after the 2nd Coming has obliterated them. They don’t go around looking for a new location, they’re just history. End of story - Finito - See ya, wouldn’t wanna be ya. The wind blows them away, never to be seen again. “The wind swept them away without leaving a trace.”
So - Babylon earned the 20 by 10 curse and God brought the curse to set on the land of Babylon (Shinar) as one day that curse of her total consumption must take place. To do this feat, prophecy continues with the story of the future land of Shinar for the endtime. See, that part I can agree with. Babylon is indeed reserved for a final judgment in conjunction with the 2nd Coming as we see foretold in Revelation 18, among other places.
When? After the mountains of brass have come to be. Daniel 2 - third empire (brass) Daniel 11, Daniel 8 - also shows that the Greek Empire area will have a last days role to play out. I'm using the KJV... Zechariah 5 begins with why there is a curse. a 20 by 10 curse the size of the porch at the holy site temple 20 by 10 cubitsThat’s an interesting detail that I had not caught before, thanks.
So as Nebuchadnezzar entered into God's house - God sent the curse to Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom of Shinar. That makes sense.
Zechariah chapter 6- deals with horses - in chariots. The KJV shows the bay horses ask to go - as in they want to leave the chariot and wander the earth.
Notice that the north country will quiet those horses. The bay horses are the spirit of the fear of the LORD - when silenced - Israel is taken by the wicked. As in - the north country will take the land of Israel captive. Now, you do realize that Zechariah’s ministry was after Israel had “returned” from Babylon, don’t you? It was written after Daniel was written, so the fulfillment of the north country has to be something other than just Nebuchadnezzar. You probably already know that, don’t you?
white - the spirit of wisdom and understanding )shows one gets a crown and begins the kingdom (in the land of Shinar)

red - the spirit of counsel and might (strength)

and so on

see Proverbs 8 and Isaiah 11:1-2Which verse in Proverbs 8?
Zechariah was told that - these are the four spirits of the heavens.
white = in righteousness He judges and makes war
That is why Jesus is shown riding on a white horse.Right. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/nod.gif
Only the 4th seal is the man of sin starting to show up as the ruler of Iraq. OK, I can go along with “Iraq”, since I’m sure that you’re referring to Babylon. How do you get the fourth seal connection? What does ¼ of the earth’s population dying have to do with it? Wouldn’t the 1st or 2nd seal be a closer connection?
5th seal = the great tribulation
6th seal =end of the great tribulation
and the rapture of the churchThis I can agree with completely.
4th seal - see Habakkuk chapter 2 the death and desires to be as hell man at the end it shall speakI do see the connection between the Antichrist and Habakkuk 2, there’s no doubt about that. But it appears to me that there is just as viable a connection with the 2nd seal as the 4th one, even more so, actually, since Habakkuk speaks of violence throughout the earth, and that is certainly descriptive of the 2nd seal.
Rev. 7 is like a summary part. It takes us back to the place of about the start of the 4th seal and ends just before the 7th seal is opened.

John gets more clarification of the most important section of Rev. 6.
To understand how things unfold here go to Ezekiel chapter 7.
it speaks also of - four corners and time to set a mark on some of Israel for protection.
Protection from what?
God is about to send the wickedest person against the land of Israel to take her by
sword
famine
pestilence

=as in more than one type of destruction method

This slayer will be the one that is the time of trouble against Isael.

Ezekiel chapter 7
the end is come upon the four corners
recompense upon thee all thine abominations

see Isaiah 65:6
as it shows God will not keep silence till this part is done

Ezekiel 7:7
day of trouble near

7:15
the
sword
famine
pestilence

/notice only the 4th seal rider has several ways to slay

Ezekiel 7:24
will bring the worst of the heathen

So now what must be done for Nebuchadnezzar is coming to take Judah?
Ezekiel 9:11
the man
clothed with linen

/notice Rev. 15 shows the seven angels leave heaven and wear linen
are girded = have pockets
Rev. 7 - having the seal of the living God

Ezekiel 9
the one in linen has an inkhorn by his side
will set and mark
then returns to God to report what was done

Rev. 7 - John hears the numbers that were sealed
=John hears the all done marking people for protection report?OK, I can see your point and I do understand your line of reasoning. The only problem I’m seeing with this is that the parts about Ezekiel 6-9 have to do with the destruction by Nebuchadnezzar in 586 B.C. I realize that Ezekiel 7:1-3 are speaking of “the end”, but they don’t use Day of the Lord language, like “end times” or “end of days” or “the time of the end”. The only ending spoken of here is the end of Israel’s sovereignty, which it certainly was when Nebuchadnezzar invaded Jerusalem. Later on in Ezekiel, after Ezekiel 33:21-33 where the destruction of Jerusalem is announced to have occurred, then we see a distinctive switching over to prophecies about the end times, like the valley of dry bones, Gog/Magog, etc.

vinsight4u8
Mar 27th 2008, 07:31 PM
Zechariah chapter 5
KJV
Yes, I agree, this is after some of the Jews returned from Babylon. Daniel would have told people about the prophecy in chapter 2 that shows the wind carried pieces of empires.

"...and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them..."
/as in the wind carries broken sections of fallen empires

and one day no place will be found for any of the broken pieces....

But first, comes the wind job of carrying back a piece of Shinar to reset up her kingdom.
When it this kingdom?
wings of a stork
/at the appointed time


The wind will, in the end, finally carry away all the shattered pieces of other empires, so that no place will be found for them.
verse 44
"...the kingdom shall not be left to other people..."

applying the wind job to
Zechariah chapter 5
verse 9
"...and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah...

Zechariah asked as to where the ephah is being taken.

the reply he was given

verse 11
"...To build it an house in the land of Shinar..."

house - palace
a kingdom

"... it shall be established..."

To do this> takes the spirit of wisdom and understanding.
/leading us right into Zechariah chapter 6
/the house building time in the land of Shinar
at the appointed time =the end time

Proverbs 24:3
"Through wisdom is an house builded; and by understanding it is established:"

vinsight4u8
Mar 27th 2008, 07:49 PM
So Zechariah chapter 5 is about Nebuchadnezzar earning the 20 by 10 curse on his Babylonian land, due to he crossed wickedly the 20 by 10 dimension place of the temple porch.

1 Kings 6:3
"And the porch before the temple of the house, twenty cubits {was} the length thereof,...and ten cubits {was the breadth..."

Since Babylon has yet to fall in a very destructive manner, an ephah for the land of Shinar is carried back to rebuild the kingdom at the appointed time.

God had this 20 by 10 curse message going out over the world, and Nebuchadnezzar II earned it by doing wickedness at the place of the name of God.
the holy site


verse 4 /Zech.5
"...by my name..."


2 Chronicles 6:20
"...that thou wouldest put thy name there..."
7:12
"And the LORD appeared to Solomon by night, and said unto him, I have heard thy prayer, and have chosen this place to myself for an house of sacrifice."
verse16
"....that my name may be there for ever..."


Just to add another part as this is a good time to note something.

God's name is on the holy site forever.
Then consider Rev. 13:1 and the evil name of the seven heads.
blasphemy

Nebuchadnezzar was the first king of blasphemy.
Antiochus of Epiphanes was the second and so on...till Hadrian was number 7.

vinsight4u8
Mar 27th 2008, 10:51 PM
I can see that actually. I was very familiar with Zech 6 but hadn't seen the Deut passage before or @ least tied it together.

Pull some things out of Deuteronomy and apply them to certain verses in Revelation.

using KJV
such as:
Deuteronomy 31:17-18
"Then my anger shall be kindled against them in {that} day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face fro them. and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them...And I will surely hide my face in that day..."

Rev. 6
God begins to show His face in the 6th seal.
The wicked will hide in the rocks, so the time of the wicked against Israel must be over before the 6th seal ends.


32:21
"...I will move them to jealousy with {those which are} not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation."
jealousy - being done via the church
anger - will be done by the nation of Iraq

32:36
"For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that {their} power is gone..."

Rev. 10:7
"...the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Moses and others have prophesied that God would end the last punishment time of Israel early.
as in - repents of some of the evil that is to befall Israel
thus, the seven thunders part was not written down, but was sealed up

there should be time no longer for men to repent
God's longsuffering is over

32:6
"..O foolish people...estabished thee?"
verse 20
"And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end {shall be}....."verse 21 "...I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation."
verses 24-25
hunger
bitter destruction
beasts
sword

verse 34
sealed
among My treasures

Job 38:22-23
"...treasures...reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?"

Iraq is sealed - used to be - her rulers were sealed up till the endtimes.

Banzy
Mar 27th 2008, 10:52 PM
Hello QuietDove,

Here's what I mean about victorious. The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus was completely victorious. I'm sure we would all agree with that. Now, because of those tenements of our faith, His Kingdom has been established and it continues to grow to this day.

Like I've mentioned before, Dan. speaks of a Stone, becoming a mountain, then filling the whole earth. That is what I believe.

However, for all tribbers, ie pretrib, mid trib, and post trib, they all are looking for the devil to have his best day. They all are looking for the devil to take over the planet.

So, do you see what I mean? My message and interpretation is of Our King, the Lord Jesus Christ, continuing to build His Kingdom. He is the one that is victorious, and His Kingdom will continue to increase.

However, for all trib believers, they have to believe that His church is declining and that the devil takes over. I just can't believe that anymore. I once was a pretrib rapture believer, but after much study it just doesn't add up, especially after the Cross.

vinsight4u8
Mar 27th 2008, 11:06 PM
OK, I can go along with you so far…King Faisal? First of all, he’s in Saudi Arabia, and second what about him makes him the Antichrist? He’s done nothing to fulfill the conditions that the Apostle Paul gave us for identifying the antichrist.I can appreciate the tendency to assume that the horses here in Zechariah 6 are equivalent with the ones in Revelation 6, but there are some important differences.....

King Faisal was the first ruler of Iraq, he was at first (for a bit), the ruler of Syria. He fought for Great Britain, so they believed they had better find him somewhere to be the ruler. King Faisal was elected also as king by his people. He got along with the Israeli people.

Zechariah saw the white horses go to the north country,
as in the Euphrated River.
so - any rider for one of them must get on at the River

a rider in Iraq


He was not the a-c, as the seals are showing us the rising of the nation of Shinar for the last days. Zech. 5 requires the kingdom of Shinar to return and chapter 6 brings that kingdom forth a bit at a time.

Just as Israel came forth as a nation - a bit at a time - and so do other kingdoms.


Deuteronomy 1:8
"Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land..."
/Rev.'s first seal rider - using this as a guide, shows us he is to start the nation, begin the crown, go forth conquering and to conquer - as in possess that land to start the kingdom of Shinar again.


What about Israel?
She was to possess the land and do it how?

Deuteronomy 1:13
"Take you wise men, and understanding, and known among your tribes, and I will make them rulers over you."
verse 16
"...judge righteously..."


Judges 5:0
"Speak ye that ride on white..."verse 9 "....governors of Israel..."
verse 11
"...rehearse the righteous acts..."

quiet dove
Mar 28th 2008, 12:53 AM
Hello QuietDove,

Here's what I mean about victorious. The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus was completely victorious. I'm sure we would all agree with that. Now, because of those tenements of our faith, His Kingdom has been established and it continues to grow to this day.

Like I've mentioned before, Dan. speaks of a Stone, becoming a mountain, then filling the whole earth. That is what I believe.

However, for all tribbers, ie pretrib, mid trib, and post trib, they all are looking for the devil to have his best day. They all are looking for the devil to take over the planet.

So, do you see what I mean? My message and interpretation is of Our King, the Lord Jesus Christ, continuing to build His Kingdom. He is the one that is victorious, and His Kingdom will continue to increase.

However, for all trib believers, they have to believe that His church is declining and that the devil takes over. I just can't believe that anymore. I once was a pretrib rapture believer, but after much study it just doesn't add up, especially after the Cross.

Satan does not have to take over the planet, Adam basically handed it to him. Even Satan offered it to Jesus if Jesus would worship Him.

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me."
Luk 4:5 Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said to Him, "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.

Believers are not taking over the world, they are being called from it, freed from the bondage of the kingdom of darkness.
Joh 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

I know you have heard it said, we are in the world not of it.

The Church is no lesser or no greater today than it was 1000 years ago. Every believer stands individually and equally before Christ as a sinner saved by His Grace. Victorious covered by His atoning blood.

It isn't a matter of Satan having his day, he is having his day every day already with every person that rejects Christ. No one is looking for the Devil to take over the planet. It does not have to do with the Church declining. The Church is doing what she has always done, preach the Gospel and each member of the Church is the same as they have always been, saved by Grace. The Church is not going to decline, a person is either saved or they are not. It is the ones that are not that will decline into the depth of deception

2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Literalist-Luke
Mar 28th 2008, 06:54 AM
Satan does not have to take over the planet, Adam basically handed it to him. Even Satan offered it to Jesus if Jesus would worship Him.

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me."
Luk 4:5 Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said to Him, "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.

Believers are not taking over the world, they are being called from it, freed from the bondage of the kingdom of darkness.
Joh 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

I know you have heard it said, we are in the world not of it.

The Church is no lesser or no greater today than it was 1000 years ago. Every believer stands individually and equally before Christ as a sinner saved by His Grace. Victorious covered by His atoning blood.

It isn't a matter of Satan having his day, he is having his day every day already with every person that rejects Christ. No one is looking for the Devil to take over the planet. It does not have to do with the Church declining. The Church is doing what she has always done, preach the Gospel and each member of the Church is the same as they have always been, saved by Grace. The Church is not going to decline, a person is either saved or they are not. It is the ones that are not that will decline into the depth of deception

2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.You took the words right outta my keyboard. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/thumb.gif

vinsight4u8
Mar 28th 2008, 07:41 AM
Just a quick summary:

Moses - enemy nation for the end is sealed up
Zechariah 6 - horses to the north country (Shinar)

Iraq - Shinar -had her rulers sealed up with God and now opening of the seals -so one day Shinar can be consumed - even the timber and the stones of it.

1st seal
Shinar rises - gets her first ruler

.....between the 3rd and 4th seals
the seven (in linen) angels of God come from heaven
have seven plagues with them
will seal the 144,000
then return to heaven and a report seems to be given - as in John hears the numbers that get sealed

The seven angels will get trumpets to sound so as to bring that first set of seven plagues to pass.
)no man may enter heaven till all of these angel plagues end - see Rev. 15/end part area
4th seal
Habakkuk 2 evil proud man
Chaldean
/Habakkuk had been shown a vision of the Chaldeans (in chapter 1). He then goes to get on the tower to warn the people of this prophecy (in chapter 2), but God has him write it down instead - for it is for the time appointed.
this death and desires to be as hell man
/names of the 4th seal rider

5th seal
great tribulation
all sleep till all come in

No rapture of any of the church yet - as even Job has shown that man won't be rising till the heavens be no more.
see Job 14:12,14
till my change come
/1 Cor. 15:51-54
We shall all be changed...



When do the heavens depart?
Rev. - 6th seal


5th seal - connects to Deuteronomy 32
and the sealed up prophecy of Moses

"...How long...does thou not judge and avenge..."
/So God is not yet the destroyer.
It is clear to the 5th seal and the end of it - that the world is still experiencing the wrath of Satan - the 4th seal - to the start of the 6th seal - is not the wrath of God.

So when does God judge and avenge?

Deuteronomy 32:43
"...will avenge the blood of his servants...and will be merciful unto his land, {and} to his people."

7th seal - time of silence in heaven
Isaiah 18 - after the harvest situation
verse 4
"For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place..."

Isaiah 65:6
"Behold, {it is} written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense into their bosom"...verse 7 "Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD...therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom."
/as in the trumpets are not full portions at a time


Isaiah 62:1
"For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerualem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth...and the salvation..."
verse 4
"...neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate..."
verse 7
"And give him no rest, till he establisheth, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth."

It is impossible for the trumpets - or any of the great tribulation part of them to come after the end of the 6th seal.
The 6th seal even opens with the signs of the end of the tribulation.
sun black
/Matthew 24 - sun /darkened

So why are the seven angels (and their trumpet story) shown after the 7th seal?
Because they are the trumpet angels showing up before God to pour out the vials of His wrath.

God's wrath will begin to consume the land of Shinar and her followers.

The prophecy of Micah 7 - where God will show marvellous {things} to the Assyrian for 45 days.

Rev. 15:1
marvellous sign
the seven last plagues
God's wrath

Will come in full amounts at a time.

Daniel rises at the 1290th day from the sacrifice being taken away - but there is still (as in Daniel 12) another section for 45 days.

vinsight4u8
Mar 28th 2008, 09:36 AM
Proverbs 8 = what it takes for all kings to reign

verses 12-16
"...knowledge...the fear of the LORD..Counsel...wisdom...understanding...strength. .By me kings reign,... and nobles, {even} all the judges of the earth."

Zechariah saw horses coming from a kingdom area - so he saw something dealing with what it takes to make a kingdom.
rulers

Proverbs shows us that would involve such things as:
knowledge
wisdom
understanding
counsel
strength
fear of the LORD


Jesus will one day be here and rule on this earth - so He too will need at least some or all of those things.

Isaiah 11:1-2
"And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse....a Branch...And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;"

so - the four spirits of Zechariah 6

white
wisdom
understanding - one gets a crown

Proverbs 4:7
"Wisdom is the principal thing...and with all thy getting get understanding....Exalt her, and she shall promote thee...shall give to thine head an ornament...a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee."

frist seal rider of Rev. 6?
gets a crown given to him

"...a crown was given unto him..."
verse 1/ Rev. 6


Proverbs 14:34
"Righteousness exalteth a nation..."



Just as when Israel began.
Deuteronomy 4:5-6
"...go to possess...for...your wisdom and your understanding...Surely this nation {is} a wise and understanding people."

Applying this manner to Rev. 6...
the first seal rider take possessions (seizes, occupies) of the land of Iraq
gains independence for Iraq

second seal rider - same area
third seal - same area ...plus other info I can post on later
hurt not the oil and the wine - represents famine ending on a land
fourth seal - starts to take more territory
uses several ways to slay people

vinsight4u8
Mar 28th 2008, 12:56 PM
Ezekiel 7,9 can be used to understand the seals and the time of Rev. 7 as both are describing what happens to Israel when God hides His face and lets her be scattered from her land.

four corners
time of the wicked man given many weapons
hunger
beasts
death
pestilence
sword
or such

So God hides His face around the time of the start of the 4th seal and shows no mercy to Israel (the seven thunders part) till He shows up at the 6th seal and the wicked hide from His face.

The prophecy then of Isaiah 2:10-21 is coming to pass - as to what happens in the end when the wicked hide in the rocks.
for fear of the Lord and His glory
and His wrath

Rev. 11:18
His wrath
time of Him to destroy
time for reward for His servants

the third woe = the 7th trumpet/earthquake
John was told that 7,000 men in the city would die.


The two rise and the great hoop it up party of the wicked ends - the remnant gives glory to the real God.
The wicked go hide in the rocks!
Jesus has then come to rapture the church and free Jerusalem.
The all changed in the twinkling of an eye crowd returns to heaven with Jesus for the time of silence and the reappearing of the seven trumpet angels.

covenant mom
Mar 28th 2008, 04:17 PM
Hello QuietDove,

Here's what I mean about victorious. The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus was completely victorious. I'm sure we would all agree with that. Now, because of those tenements of our faith, His Kingdom has been established and it continues to grow to this day.

Like I've mentioned before, Dan. speaks of a Stone, becoming a mountain, then filling the whole earth. That is what I believe.

However, for all tribbers, ie pretrib, mid trib, and post trib, they all are looking for the devil to have his best day. They all are looking for the devil to take over the planet.

So, do you see what I mean? My message and interpretation is of Our King, the Lord Jesus Christ, continuing to build His Kingdom. He is the one that is victorious, and His Kingdom will continue to increase.

However, for all trib believers, they have to believe that His church is declining and that the devil takes over. I just can't believe that anymore. I once was a pretrib rapture believer, but after much study it just doesn't add up, especially after the Cross.

Hmmm...I have a different take on this.

I don't agree that we are looking for the devil to have his best day in the manner which you make it sound. Like we are keeping our eyes on the devil's coming b/c he will be victorious. Even if believers are dying left & right @ the hand of the Antichrist & his possy, we still have the victory in Christ. Death is nothing compared to the life we obtain in Christ Jesus. Physical death in nothing. If anything it is a gain. Whether it comes from my head being chopped off by those against Christ, or by cancer of my flesh...it doesn't matter thanks to Jesus having victory over death. The more I learn about those days of tribulation, the more I look for my Blessed Hope who will cut those days short in a post trib rapture. Satan's big day may be yet to come but we know it leads to him being destroyed by the brightness of Christ Jesus' coming. We know Who has won, is victorious & will be (Jesus) even while Satan may be at the highth of his day, he still won't be victorious. Satan's big days don't change one ounce of Jesus' victory. Praise Jesus ~ He has already won!

Anyways, all the believers I know are looking for Jesus not Satan. Just b/c we study the tribulation doesn't mean it's to give Satan glory...it's still all about Jesus. :pp

Banzy
Mar 29th 2008, 03:34 PM
One quick thought for quietdove: Adam never handed over control of this planet to the devil. The earth is the Lord's. The devil may be the god of this 'world', but he's not the god of my world. All authority on the planet is in the hands of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the Son of Abraham, which gives Him control of the land, and He is the Son of David which gives Him control of the throne. "All authority...."

Hello covenant mom,

I certainly like some of your thoughts in that last post. "we still have the victory in Christ" "Death is nothing compared to the life we obtain in Christ Jesus." Amen Sister, preach it!

However, I just challenge you to think what you believe about the devil, in light of the gospels and what Jesus came to do and in fact did.

quiet dove
Mar 29th 2008, 05:09 PM
One quick thought for quietdove: Adam never handed over control of this planet to the devil. The earth is the Lord's. The devil may be the god of this 'world', but he's not the god of my world. All authority on the planet is in the hands of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the Son of Abraham, which gives Him control of the land, and He is the Son of David which gives Him control of the throne. "All authority...."


I am not saying that Jesus is not the controlling authority and power over all things. But the fact remains, even though Jesus is of course more powerful and no in any way threatened by Satan's powers, but the fact remains that there is still a kingdom of darkness, this world. Adam handed over the authority that God had given him to Satan when he disobeyed God. In other words, Adam chose to obey Satan instead of God. Authority over the world in terms of the sinful world and kingdom of darkness that exist. The kingdom of darkness that we are freed from through Christ Jesus.

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
Joh 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.
Joh 16:11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."

Being judged does not mean sentence had been carried out yet. Of course Christ has all authority, but He is not forcing that authority on us, we choose to believe and submit to His authority and are freed from the bondage of the ruler of this world.

And I never said Satan was the God of your world or mine. The world that he is ruler of we are no longer citizens of. Through Christ Jesus we are freed from bondage to the ruler of this world!

There never has been nor ever will be a time when Christ has not and is not Authority.

Satans wrath has been upon those of God from the beginning and will excalate during the tribulation
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

But Rev 6, again, gives us witness that Christ is in complete authority as He is the only one worthy to open the seals and unleash God's wrath upon the world that rejected Him.
Rev 6:16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!