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View Full Version : Final Justification According to Works?



Matthehitmanhart
Mar 23rd 2008, 10:26 PM
What do you guys make of this passage?

“But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who ‘will render to each one according to his deeds’: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil… but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good... For there is no partiality with God... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified… in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.” (Romans 2:5-16)

Based on a face value reading, it seems like Paul is in some way espousing a characteristically Jewish understanding of salvation, that on the final day when we all appear at the judgment we will be evaluated - and justified or condemned - according to how we lived out our lives, whether our deeds were good or evil. In other words, it seems like Paul is presenting a doctrine of justification according to works.

I'd love to hear your thoughts...

My heart's Desire
Mar 24th 2008, 03:30 AM
You have to continue through to the conclusion in Romans 3:21-24, 28
Letting scripture speak for itself.

21. But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifestd, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22. even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

23. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24. being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
28. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

New American Standard Version revised 95

cwb
Mar 24th 2008, 03:40 AM
For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified…


if there was any person who suceeded in doing the law, that person would be justified by the law. Who falls into that category? Nobody. All have sinned and come short. There is only one person who was ever without sin and was completely a doer of the law - Jesus Christ. Everybody else has fallen short. That is why we needed Him to die for us and rise from the dead.

Matthehitmanhart
Mar 24th 2008, 05:18 AM
My hearts Desire,


You have to continue through to the conclusion in Romans 3:21-24, 28
Letting scripture speak for itself.

21. But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifestd, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22. even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

23. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24. being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
28. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

New American Standard Version revised 95

So are you saying that what Paul says in 2:1-16 is a hypothetical argument made only to establish the necessity of the cross, an argument that he then tears down after he has reached his 'conclusion' in 3:21-26?

cwb,


if there was any person who suceeded in doing the law, that person would be justified by the law. Who falls into that category? Nobody. All have sinned and come short. There is only one person who was ever without sin and was completely a doer of the law - Jesus Christ. Everybody else has fallen short. That is why we needed Him to die for us and rise from the dead.

So Paul didn't mean what he said? For some reason I have a hard time believing that....

brakelite
Mar 24th 2008, 06:04 AM
This subject of faith/works is so often at the forefront of Christian debate. Some approach through a stance of unacceptable legalism while the other extreme seem so paranoid of being branded as lagalistic they trumpet 'grace grace' and shun works altogether.
What I would like to share, I hope is a balanced scriptural view. Some of the following may come as a surprise to some.


Let us first establish one fact that we are all agreed upon. Works will not save anyone. One of the most quoted verses in scripture: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph. 2:9.

Consider also the following:

Everyone will be judged, including Christians.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Jesus is the Judge, and the Lawgiver, and Lord God Almighty.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Isa. 33:22 For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.

Revel 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

At His first advent Jesus came to save.

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

An integral part of the gospel message is that Jesus is coming to judge not only the dead, but also the living at His second coming.

Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

2 Tim 4:1 ¶ I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

1 Peter 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

The judgement at the second coming is an execution of sentence.Thus the pronouncment of guilt or innocence has been made pryor to the second coming.

Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 ¶ To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Revel 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Mathew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

We are judged by our works.

Eccl. 12:13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

2 Corin. 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Revel. 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revel. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


Every person who has ever lived on this planet must stand in the court before the Judge of the whole earth, Jesus Christ, God Almighty. Whether they be Christian, Moslem, Athiest, or idolater, all must give an account of their lives to God. At His first advent Jesus came to save, to call people to repentance, to die in our place. He lived the perfect life by faith in His Father. He is our example, to prove that it is possible to overcome by faith. Overcome the flesh, the world, and overcome sin. At His second advent He brings His reward with Him for those who have accepted His call to repentance and trusted in Him for their salvation, and also for those who remain in their sin. That reward is eternal life for those He justified, death for those He condemns. Thus there is of necessity a trial prior to the second coming, that Jesus could execute His sentence justly. Works are an integral part of the judgement. Our proclamation of faith, our profession of belief in God holds no water in court. It is insufficient to produce a decision. There is an old saying: 'If you were charged and arraigned for being a Christian, would there be sufficient evidence to convict you?'
Our works are the evidence of our faith. It is works that reveal whether we have accepted God's gift of salvation by faith. True faith cannot exist without works. Works reveal whether faith is real. Works do not save anyone in the judgement, but the judgement reveals through the works who has truly received Christ and His righteousness. We are judged by our works, not saved by them.

Brakelite

drew
Mar 24th 2008, 03:29 PM
Based on a face value reading, it seems like Paul is in some way espousing a characteristically Jewish understanding of salvation, that on the final day when we all appear at the judgment we will be evaluated - and justified or condemned - according to how we lived out our lives, whether our deeds were good or evil. In other words, it seems like Paul is presenting a doctrine of justification according to works.

I'd love to hear your thoughts...
I think that Paul means what he says here - all human beings will indeed be subject to a works-based judgement at the end, with eternal life indeed being at stake.

Does this mean that I am embracing the idea that we "earn" our salvation? No it does not. I believe that the overall scriptural picture is one where pure faith brings the Spirit to us and it is the Spirit that acts through us and ensures that our lives indeed manifest the works that are necessary to justify us in the end.

I believe that many people indeed "screen out" the text you quote from Romans 2. I know of no solid argument that undermines what Paul says here in Romans 2.

drew
Mar 24th 2008, 03:39 PM
You have to continue through to the conclusion in Romans 3:21-24, 28
Letting scripture speak for itself.

21. But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifestd, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22. even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

23. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24. being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
28. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

New American Standard Version revised 95
I believe this text is usually misunderstood and that it does not really give us a reason not to take the Romans 2 material from the OP at face value.

I assert that when Paul refers to "Law" here, he is rather clearly referring to the Torah, and more specifically to those aspects of the Torah that mark the Jew as distinct from the Gentile. He is not talking about "good works" in the general sense. So what he says here harmonizes perfectly with Romans 2 and does not force to say that Paul meant something other than what he wrote in Romans 2 and that we have rework the Romans 2 stuff in light of the above material from Romans 3.

Paul means what he says in both Romans 2 and Romans 3. In Romans 2, he tells us all humans will be judged by their works with eternal life indeed hanging in the balance. In the above material from Romans 3, Paul tells us that no one will be justified by doing the works of Torah, but rather that pure faith is the basis of our justification.

This may seem inconsistent with the Romans 2 material, but it is not. Elsewhere (e.g. in Romans 8) Paul teaches that faith brings the Spirit and it is the Spirit that is responsible for works that will justify us at the last day.

cwb
Mar 24th 2008, 10:41 PM
So Paul didn't mean what he said? For some reason I have a hard time believing that....

I definitely would never say Paul did not mean what he said. He saiid the doers of the law would be justified. He meant what is said. Anybody who is a doer of the law will be justified. He also makes it clear that nobody falls into that category.




Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.


I belive he meant what he said here. Are you saying he did not mean what he said when he said NO flesh would be justified by the deeds of the law? For some reason I find that hard to believe.






Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;



Again I think Paul meant what he said. I also believe James meant what he said.





Romans 4:4 -5
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness
.

I think Paul meant what he said here.




Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


I think Paul meant what he said here.




Romans 8:8-9
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


Again I believe what Paul said here. It is by His blood that we are justified.




Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.



Again I believe Paul meant what he said here.




GaL 3:1
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


Unfortunatley, there are alot of people out there trying to promote a works based salvation. This is certainly not what the apostle Paul taught.





Gal 3:10-11

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.



Again no man is able to keep the law and therefore no man is justified by his works. I believe the apostle Paul meant what he said.




Gal 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


I believe the apostle Paul meant what he said here. Don't you?





Gal 3:21
[Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


Again I believe Paul meant what he said.




Gal 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


I believe the Paul meant what he said. I do not believe Christ died in vain. Righteousness does not come by the old testament law nor any other law.

You may want to use a verse taken out of context in Romans 2 to say the justification comes by works but there are just too many verses that say otherwise. First of all, Romans 1:18 through 3:23 is a parenthesis showing man that man is worthy of the wrath of God and need to be justified by faith. To take Romans 2 out of that context is not rightly dividing the word of truth. In Romans 2 Paul is talking to somebody who is judemental of others and is making his boast in the law. He telling him that just by hearing the law you can't be justified but by doing the law. After telling him that Paul makes it very clear that no man is a doer of the law. To take Romans 2 out of its context to promote salvation by works is not rightly dividing the word of truth. To do so one would have to trash all the clear verses where Paul clearly says no man is justified by works.

stoomart
Mar 25th 2008, 12:07 AM
Dear brothers and sisters in Christ,


Perhaps 1 Corinthians 3:5-17 can shed some light on the debate of works/rewards and faith.

5 - Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?
6 - I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
7 - So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
8 - Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 - For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building.
10 - According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
11 - For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 - Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 - each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is.
14 - If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 - If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
16 - Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17 - If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.


In Christ's love, stoo

My heart's Desire
Mar 25th 2008, 06:08 AM
I believe this text is usually misunderstood and that it does not really give us a reason not to take the Romans 2 material from the OP at face value.

I assert that when Paul refers to "Law" here, he is rather clearly referring to the Torah, and more specifically to those aspects of the Torah that mark the Jew as distinct from the Gentile. He is not talking about "good works" in the general sense. So what he says here harmonizes perfectly with Romans 2 and does not force to say that Paul meant something other than what he wrote in Romans 2 and that we have rework the Romans 2 stuff in light of the above material from Romans 3.

Paul means what he says in both Romans 2 and Romans 3. In Romans 2, he tells us all humans will be judged by their works with eternal life indeed hanging in the balance. In the above material from Romans 3, Paul tells us that no one will be justified by doing the works of Torah, but rather that pure faith is the basis of our justification.

This may seem inconsistent with the Romans 2 material, but it is not. Elsewhere (e.g. in Romans 8) Paul teaches that faith brings the Spirit and it is the Spirit that is responsible for works that will justify us at the last day.
I'm sorry that I don't quite understand what you are saying, considering that you agree with faith being the basis of our justification and if that is so, then not works, law or anything else added to faith will affect our eternal security. It is clear from some of Paul's other writings that Christians will be rewarded or have no reward for what they used to build upon the foundation of Christ.

My heart's Desire
Mar 25th 2008, 06:24 AM
My hearts Desire,



So are you saying that what Paul says in 2:1-16 is a hypothetical argument made only to establish the necessity of the cross, an argument that he then tears down after he has reached his 'conclusion' in 3:21-26?
I think Paul is building an argument of some sort, but the verses I've given don't just pertain to what Paul just said. The verses in and of themselves give almost the whole of Salvation. Salvation is to believe the Lord Jesus is Who He says He is and that He died, was buried and that He rose again for justification, redemption, sanctification of all those who put their trust in Him, given by His unmerited favor (grace). All this apart from anything else.

ProjectPeter
Mar 25th 2008, 02:26 PM
I think Paul is building an argument of some sort, but the verses I've given don't just pertain to what Paul just said. The verses in and of themselves give almost the whole of Salvation. Salvation is to believe the Lord Jesus is Who He says He is and that He died, was buried and that He rose again for justification, redemption, sanctification of all those who put their trust in Him, given by His unmerited favor (grace). All this apart from anything else.
But then as Paul said... that is of first importance. Without that belief then you aren't even in the race. But it is still a race that must be ran with endurance and one isn't running a race without "doing". Notice that Paul never gives an analogy of Jesus running that race for you or having already ran that race for you so all you have to do is toe the starting line and BOOM... you are at the finish line.

My heart's Desire
Mar 25th 2008, 02:40 PM
But then as Paul said... that is of first importance. Without that belief then you aren't even in the race. But it is still a race that must be ran with endurance and one isn't running a race without "doing". Notice that Paul never gives an analogy of Jesus running that race for you or having already ran that race for you so all you have to do is toe the starting line and BOOM... you are at the finish line.
This is true, but doesn't mean that you may or may not be saved at the end. At the Cross, one is either saved or they are not. Would you tell a man that was just pulled from the water that he is saved but that he is still drowning and he should keep trying to swim?
I believe in Faith that results in works, but I don't think you can rely on your works as having anything to do with determining your final destination after you've already relied on the Lord Jesus for your Salvation.

drew
Mar 25th 2008, 03:30 PM
I definitely would never say Paul did not mean what he said. He saiid the doers of the law would be justified. He meant what is said. Anybody who is a doer of the law will be justified. He also makes it clear that nobody falls into that category.

I think this argument does not work for at least 2 reasons:

1. It forces us to see Paul as a very incompetent and misleading writer in Romans 2. As we all know, in that chapter Paul describes a coming judgement for all mankind where eternal life is granted to a set of persons on the basis of the good works that are manifest in their lives. We are being asked to believe that zero persons are in that set. That is an awfully stange way to write - to give a rather lengthy narrative describing how eternal life will be given to those who do good and then later (in chapter 3 ) tell us that zero persons will meet that standard. As will be argued in my second point, Romans 3 does not support such a view anyway. Remember, the Romans 2 narrative describes how those who practice evil will be punished. Presumably, we are to believe that Paul means what he says in respect to this group. But we are being asked to accept that he does not really mean what he says in respect to the other half - those described as being justified by the works they exhibit. This is a very schizophrenic way to write and is not Paul's style, in my view. I think he needs to be taken at face value in Romans 2 regarding both groups.

2. Romans 3 is often used to make the argument that no one will be justified by works as Paul seems to be saying in Romans 2. Such texts as this one from Romans 3:10 are used to make the argument that Paul should not be taken literally in Romans 2 when he clearly describes works-based justification:

As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

The problem is that people fail to see that Romans 3 has a timeline to it - it is part of a "covenant" history if you will. And what is said up to 3:20 describes the state of affairs before the covenant has been renewed. Note the "now" in 3:21, which I understand can be translated "in the present time":

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

And "law" here is Torah, not good works. The world has fundamentally changed with the resurrection of Jesus and Romans 3:10 is "in the past" - descriptive of a world that is now gone. A strong case can be made (but I won't in this post) that with the covenant renewal effected by Jesus, we are given the Spirit which enables us to do what was not possible for us before - to demonstrate good works sufficient for our justification.

Summary: I think that Paul needs to be taken at face value in Romans 2 - people's works will indeed be the basis for the granting of eternal life. These works, however, are not the works of "moral self-effort" - they are the works of the Spirit that is given to us on the basis of faith alone. The material in Romans 3 that is so often used to support the argument that we need to see the Romans 2 stuff about works justification as describing a path to justfication that no one will actually take, has been incorrectly understood. The first bit of Romans 3 describes the state of affairs before covenant renewal. It all works together and we do not need to see Paul as engaging in a misleading style of exposition in Romans 2.

And the argument that Paul says many times in his writings that we are not justified by works has been largely misunderstood - it is clear that he is talking about Torah, not good works in general. I am happy to argue this point if need be.

stoomart
Mar 25th 2008, 03:34 PM
This is true, but doesn't mean that you may or may not be saved at the end. At the Cross, one is either saved or they are not. Would you tell a man that was just pulled from the water that he is saved but that he is still drowning and he should keep trying to swim?
I believe in Faith that results in works, but I don't think you can rely on your works as having anything to do with determining your final destination after you've already relied on the Lord Jesus for your Salvation.This is true, but we must keep both perspectives of mid-race, as well as finish-line results. I've seen so many Christians, including family, that will throw out the blessings and rewards that are gained from running the race with everything we have to just barely drag across the finish line by the skin of their teeth. The danger in doing so is using the grace of our Lord as a license to live of this world.


Matthew 6:24 - No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.


Romans 6:15-24

15 - What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
16 - Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
17 - But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19 - I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 - For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 - What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 - But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


In Christ's love, stoo

John146
Mar 25th 2008, 04:31 PM
You may want to use a verse taken out of context in Romans 2 to say the justification comes by works but there are just too many verses that say otherwise. First of all, Romans 1:18 through 3:23 is a parenthesis showing man that man is worthy of the wrath of God and need to be justified by faith. To take Romans 2 out of that context is not rightly dividing the word of truth. In Romans 2 Paul is talking to somebody who is judemental of others and is making his boast in the law. He telling him that just by hearing the law you can't be justified but by doing the law. After telling him that Paul makes it very clear that no man is a doer of the law. To take Romans 2 out of its context to promote salvation by works is not rightly dividing the word of truth. To do so one would have to trash all the clear verses where Paul clearly says no man is justified by works.
We are not justified by the works of the law. That is made very clear in verses like Romans 3:28 and Galatians 2:16. However, James made it clear that were are justified by faith and good works (not to be mistaken for the works of the law).

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - James 2:20-26

What are these works that justify us? The same works that we will be judged by on the day of judgment? I would think so. So, what are those? Well, we can look back at James 2. Works of obedience and righteousness such as Abraham obeying God and going to sacrifice his son or like Rahab who helped protect God's people by sending those seeking to kill them the wrong way? These works reflected the faith that Abraham and Rahab had. What other kinds of works justify us?

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. - Matt 25:31-40

So, feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, taking in the stranger, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and those in prison are among the good works that justify us. If we never do any of these kinds of things, how can we claim that we have faith? True faith will lead to the good works that God has for us to do (Eph 2:10).

Now, the question is: are these good works done in our own power? Are they done in and of ourselves? No. The only works that are acceptable to God are those done through the leading of the Holy Spirit living in us. It is not us that actually do the work. We are responsible for following the lead of the Holy Spirit, but He does the work.

6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: - Phil 1:6

It is the Spirit who performs the work by making us new creatures in Christ and giving us the power and ability to do the works that God has for us to do. If we truly have faith and have the Spirit dwelling in us, this will be reflected in our words, actions and how we live our lives. Everyone is known by their fruits because they reflect one's true beliefs and motives.

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. - Matthew 7:17-23

Here is the key. Anyone can do good works. But what are the good works that justify us? Clearly not those down through selfish motives and apart from the leading of the Spirit. In order for our good works to justify us, we have to know Christ. It has to be Him leading us to do the good works in order for them to justify us. The Spirit leads us to do these works. Our motives are to serve Christ. The motives of those whose good works are not acceptable to Christ are selfish and self-glorifying. They say, "Look what I did" rather than "Look what You did through me". Also, their works are not fruitful because the effects of their works are not lasting because they lacked the power of the Spirit behind them.

13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. - 1 Cor 3:13-15

What are the works that abide? Those done through the Spirit of Christ, who says in John 15:5, "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.". What are the works that are burned? Those done apart from Christ. They are as filthy rags.

Eric

ProjectPeter
Mar 25th 2008, 04:33 PM
We are not justified by the works of the law. That is made very clear in verses like Romans 3:28 and Galatians 2:16. However, James made it clear that were are justified by faith and good works (not to be mistaken for the works of the law).

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - James 2:20-26

What are these works that justify us? The same works that we will be judged by on the day of judgment? I would think so. So, what are those? Well, we can look back at James 2. Works of obedience and righteousness such as Abraham obeying God and going to sacrifice his son or like Rahab who helped protect God's people by sending those seeking to kill them the wrong way? These works reflected the faith that Abraham and Rahab had. What other kinds of works justify us?

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. - Matt 25:31-40

So, feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, taking in the stranger, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and those in prison are among the good works that justify us. If we never do any of these kinds of things, how can we claim that we have faith? True faith will lead to the good works that God has for us to do (Eph 2:10).

Now, the question is: are these good works done in our own power? Are they done in and of ourselves? No. The only works that are acceptable to God are those done through the leading of the Holy Spirit living in us. It is not us that actually do the work. We are responsible for following the lead of the Holy Spirit, but He does the work.

6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: - Phil 1:6

It is the Spirit who performs the work by making us new creatures in Christ and giving us the power and ability to do the works that God has for us to do. If we truly have faith and have the Spirit dwelling in us, this will be reflected in our words, actions and how we live our lives. Everyone is known by their fruits because they reflect one's true beliefs and motives.

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. - Matthew 7:17-23

Here is the key. Anyone can do good works. But what are the good works that justify us? Clearly not those down through selfish motives and apart from the leading of the Spirit. In order for our good works to justify us, we have to know Christ. It has to be Him leading us to do the good works in order for them to justify us. The Spirit leads us to do these works. Our motives are to serve Christ. The motives of those whose good works are not acceptable to Christ are selfish and self-glorifying. They say, "Look what I did" rather than "Look what You did through me". Also, their works are not fruitful because the effects of their works are not lasting because they lacked the power of the Spirit behind them.

13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. - 1 Cor 3:13-15

What are the works that abide? Those done through the Spirit of Christ, who says in John 15:5, "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.". What are the works that are burned? Those done apart from Christ. They are as filthy rags.

Eric
Very well said and something that I hope all would agree on. You worded that around a lot of denominational lines in the sand... good job. :lol:

drew
Mar 25th 2008, 04:34 PM
I'm sorry that I don't quite understand what you are saying, considering that you agree with faith being the basis of our justification and if that is so, then not works, law or anything else added to faith will affect our eternal security. It is clear from some of Paul's other writings that Christians will be rewarded or have no reward for what they used to build upon the foundation of Christ.
Hello MHD:

I think that one of the reasons that we all get stuck on this has to do with some very strong pre-conceptions that we bring to the issue of justification and salvation. The one that I think is problematic is the idea that these concepts collapse onto a single point in time - that there is a single "justification" event and a single "salvation" event on the timeline of our lives and of the world.

I think that this is not what the scriptures teach. I think that justification (to pick justification and not salvation - these are not the same concepts) has three "tenses":

1. Past: Jesus dies on the cross;
2. Present: We believe in Jesus by faith and faith alone
3. Future: Eternal life granted on the basis of works (as per Romans 2)

Each of these events contribute something to the overall concept of "justification" - they are all part of the picture.

If we are not open to this more complex "multi-time" view of justification we are forced to do all sorts of strange things, such as saying that Paul does not really mean what he says in Romans 2. I would rather not do that.

How can this all work together? Here is an attempt at a short explanation of the relation of "present" justification to "future" justification:

A. We accept Jesus as Saviour in the present, based purely on faith;

B. As a result, God gives us the Spirit which ensures that our lives will manifest good works - the Spirit does this, not "me";

C. On the day of judgement we are justified by these works as Romans 2 teaches.

So in a very real and non-fuzzy sense, we are "justified by faith in the present" and "justified by works in the future".

John146
Mar 25th 2008, 04:40 PM
And the argument that Paul says many times in his writings that we are not justified by works has been largely misunderstood - it is clear that he is talking about Torah, not good works in general.

Absolutely. He makes that very clear.

15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. - Galatians 2:15-16


I am happy to argue this point if need be.

I don't know how anyone can argue with this:

24Ye see then how tht by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. - James 2:24

Clearly, scripture differentiates between the works of the law and good works. It shouldn't be hard for anyone to see the difference.

Friend of I AM
Mar 25th 2008, 04:44 PM
What do you guys make of this passage?

“But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who ‘will render to each one according to his deeds’: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil… but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good... For there is no partiality with God... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified… in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.” (Romans 2:5-16)

Based on a face value reading, it seems like Paul is in some way espousing a characteristically Jewish understanding of salvation, that on the final day when we all appear at the judgment we will be evaluated - and justified or condemned - according to how we lived out our lives, whether our deeds were good or evil. In other words, it seems like Paul is presenting a doctrine of justification according to works.

I'd love to hear your thoughts...

I know you all have probably seen this verse posted a million times in other places, but let me post it again..:)

This is a work of God, having faith in him who he sent...

As stated by some already in this thread, the only works done that will be recognized are those that are done by the Holy Spirit. In Christ, God himself get's all of the credit for the works being performed. Even the very work of "faith." Now here comes the tricky part, how do we know we're acting according to this work of God which equals faith? Well the Word goes on to tell us the following through the apostle Paul.

Galations 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

The faith that we have in Christ will bring about the fruits/works of the Spirit, Love, gentleness, goodness, etc.

Hope this helps!

In Christ

Stephen

cwb
Mar 25th 2008, 07:45 PM
You can't have it both ways. It is either by grace or of works. It is either one or the other - not both. Paul makes that clear.




Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


Grace is the opposite of works and works is the opposite of grace. That is what grace means, recieving something you did not earn.



Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Again Paul makes it clear here that working for it and accepting it by grace are two complete opposites. You can not have it both ways. Every person has to decide whether they are going to work for it or accept the grace God has freely given. I believe scripture makes it abundantly clear that those who endeavor to work for it are going to fall short in their endeavors.

Friend of I AM
Mar 25th 2008, 07:48 PM
You can't have it both ways. It is either by grace or of works. It is either one or the other - not both. Paul makes that clear.




Grace is the opposite of works and works is the opposite of grace. That is what grace means, recieving something you did not earn.



Again Paul makes it clear here that working for it and accepting it by grace are two complete opposites. You can not have it both ways. Every person has to decide whether they are going to work for it or accept the grace God has freely given. I believe scripture makes it abundantly clear that those who endeavor to work for it are going to fall short in their endeavors.


Grace and works go hand and hand. God's grace produces works through us. Those works include faith as well as the fruits of the spirit.

ProjectPeter
Mar 25th 2008, 07:54 PM
You can't have it both ways. It is either by grace or of works. It is either one or the other - not both. Paul makes that clear.




Grace is the opposite of works and works is the opposite of grace. That is what grace means, recieving something you did not earn.



Again Paul makes it clear here that working for it and accepting it by grace are two complete opposites. You can not have it both ways. Every person has to decide whether they are going to work for it or accept the grace God has freely given. I believe scripture makes it abundantly clear that those who endeavor to work for it are going to fall short in their endeavors.The "works" Paul is CLEARLY speaking of is "works of the Mosaic Law." There is no getting around that contextual fact. So if that is the "works" you are speaking of then no one is going to disagree with you. If you are talking "works" as sin, good deeds in general, etc... then you are mistaken greatly. :)

cwb
Mar 25th 2008, 08:04 PM
Grace and works go hand and hand. God's grace produces works through us. Those works include faith as well as the fruits of the spirit.

I agree grace produces good works through us. The good works comes after someone is saved and justified. The motivation for doing good works should be because of the grace God has bestowed upon us. The good works I do through the Spirit is because God has justified me. I do not do good works to order to earn that which God has freely given.

The apostle Paul laboured more than anybody. Yet even he said that it was because of the grace of God. He was not going about trying to work for a gift that God has freely given. He worked because of the gift that was freely given, not to earn the free gift.



I cor. 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

cwb
Mar 25th 2008, 08:12 PM
The "works" Paul is CLEARLY speaking of is "works of the Mosaic Law." There is no getting around that contextual fact. So if that is the "works" you are speaking of then no one is going to disagree with you. If you are talking "works" as sin, good deeds in general, etc... then you are mistaken greatly. :)


If you are saying that there is any work that we can to earn a gift, I am going to have to disagree with you on that issue:). Like I said before, the good deeds I do (or not sinning, etc...) is because of the gracious gift God has bestowed upon me - not because I am trying to earn something he has freely given.

ProjectPeter
Mar 25th 2008, 08:16 PM
If you are saying that there is any work that we can to earn a gift, I am going to have to disagree with you on that issue:). Like I said before, the good deeds I do (or not sinning, etc...) is because of the gracious gift God has bestowed upon me - not because I am trying to earn something he has freely given.
If you are speaking of "any" thing being a work then you disagree with Paul and certainly not me.

This is his message to both Jew and Gentile.


Acts 26:16 `But arise, and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;
17 delivering you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.´
19 "Consequently, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision,
20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.

So... do you think he got that wrong?

cwb
Mar 25th 2008, 08:37 PM
If you are speaking of "any" thing being a work then you disagree with Paul and certainly not me.

This is his message to both Jew and Gentile.


Acts 26:16 `But arise, and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;
17 delivering you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.´
19 "Consequently, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision,
20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.

So... do you think he got that wrong?

I think you already know I do not believe the apostle Paul got anything wrong (at least not when he wrote down scripture). I do not see anything in the verse to you quoted that contradicts that salvation is a free gift. When someone repents, and turns to God, God gives that person the free gift. Paul teaches those who have repented and recieved the free gift to perform deeds worthy of the free gift they have recieved when they repented. Paul teaches that in all his epistles. I do not see how Paul is somehow saying a gift is something to be earned by somebody's works. If it is earned it is not a gift. A gift is something that is not earned. Should we walk worthy of the vocation where we were called? Absolutely.

ProjectPeter
Mar 25th 2008, 08:47 PM
I think you already know I do not believe the apostle Paul got anything wrong (at least not when he wrote down scripture). I do not see anything in the verse to you quoted that contradicts that salvation is a free gift. When someone repents, and turns to God, God gives that person the free gift. Paul teaches those who have repented and recieved the free gift to perform deeds worthy of the free gift they have recieved when they repented. Paul teaches that in all his epistles. I do not see how Paul is somehow saying a gift is something to be earned by somebody's works. If it is earned it is not a gift. A gift is something that is not earned. Should we walk worthy of the vocation where we were called? Absolutely.
Paul didn't say anything about repent and turn to God and you'd automatically do deeds worthy of repentance. You are the one tossing in the word earned... I'd say what Jesus and Paul both said and taught... it is simply what you ought to do therefore do it. Nothing to do with a gift given on one side... sheep on the other. ;)

drew
Mar 25th 2008, 08:56 PM
Again Paul makes it clear here that working for it and accepting it by grace are two complete opposites. You can not have it both ways. Every person has to decide whether they are going to work for it or accept the grace God has freely given. I believe scripture makes it abundantly clear that those who endeavor to work for it are going to fall short in their endeavors.
You read "works" as per Romans 4:2 and other places and understand this to mean "moral good works". Quite naturally, you see a conflict between "grace" and "works". But what if your understanding of what "works" means is actually wrong? I believe that a clear case can be made that Paul, in Romans 4:2 for example, is referring to the works of Torah, and specifically those works of Torah that mark out the Jew from the Gentile.

It is these works of Torah that do not "save" or "justify". I think the case that "works of Torah", and not "good works generally" are in view in Romans 4:2 is very powerful indeed. Same with texts like Ephesians 2:8-10 - Paul is not writing against justification by good works - he is writing against justification by the "ethnic specificity" of Torah. Context rather clearly shows this, so I admit that I am somewhat mystified as to how pervasive the other view is, namely that Paul is denying justification by works.

It would be very strange indeed if that were what Paul was doing since Romans 2 so clearly teaches that we are indeed justified by the works we exhibit.

And let the reader not be confused. There is indeed a sense in which we can properly talk about being saved by grace and yet also by works. That sense is the following: through grace and grace alone, God gives the Spirit to those who place faith in Jesus. The Spirit is then the agent that manifests the works that will justify on the last day.

We are not forced into an "either - or" choice between grace and works.

drew
Mar 25th 2008, 09:08 PM
I want to underscore what I think is a pervasive and subtle pre-conception that people bring to reading Paul. They come to Paul already believing that "justification" and / or "salvation" are one time events. This leads to all kinds of trouble, not least of which being to basically sweep Romans 2 under the rug, saying that Paul writes at length of a path to justification that no one will actuallly take. Do you really think Paul is this kind of a writer?

Instead, I suggest we need to loosen our grip on this way of conceiving of justification (and salvation). I think that Paul tells us that there are "tenses" to these concepts. So, for example, we are justified in the present by faith and in the future by works.

I know some readers will reject this assertion outright, believing it is logically impossible. Such is the power of the pre-conception that justification is a "one - time" event.

I think that Paul teaches something quite different. To be "justified", for Paul, is not primarily a law-court term even though most people think that it is. Instead, for Paul, justification really entails the declaration that a person is a member of God's covenant family. And this works perfectly well the "present - future" distinction that I have alluded to.

In the present, the true covenant people of God are marked out by faith and faith alone. On the future day of judgement they will be marked out by the works that the Spirit has manifested in their lives.

My heart's Desire
Mar 25th 2008, 10:59 PM
You can't have it both ways. It is either by grace or of works. It is either one or the other - not both. Paul makes that clear.




Grace is the opposite of works and works is the opposite of grace. That is what grace means, recieving something you did not earn.



Again Paul makes it clear here that working for it and accepting it by grace are two complete opposites. You can not have it both ways. Every person has to decide whether they are going to work for it or accept the grace God has freely given. I believe scripture makes it abundantly clear that those who endeavor to work for it are going to fall short in their endeavors.That's right! Works will show your faith and there will be rewards, but salvation will not be one of them as only those saved can have good works that please God. Our Salvation is based on the Lord Jesus Christ and His Work.

cwb
Mar 26th 2008, 03:56 AM
That's right! Works will show your faith and there will be rewards, but salvation will not be one of them as only those saved can have good works that please God. Our Salvation is based on the Lord Jesus Christ and His Work.

I agree. I am not too sure why people have such a hard time with the concept that salvation is a gift.

My heart's Desire
Mar 26th 2008, 04:01 AM
I agree. I am not too sure why people have such a hard time with the concept that salvation is a gift.
Because we still want to have a hand in it, maybe?

ProjectPeter
Mar 26th 2008, 01:33 PM
And just like the parable Jesus gave of the unforgiving servant... that gift can be revoked if one doesn't continue in the kindness of the King in forgiving his brother from the heart. Or just like there were many Jews cut off from the olive tree and the wild olive branches were grafted in... if you don't continue in God's kindness... you too can be cut off. So yes... it is a gift that can't be earned but it is a gift that comes with great responsibility and in that... you certainly do have a part in it with God equipping you to do that part.

drew
Mar 26th 2008, 02:15 PM
I agree. I am not too sure why people have such a hard time with the concept that salvation is a gift.
For my part, and probably for a number of others, we have a hard time understanding why you and others seem to:

1. Deny the rather obvious truth that when Paul denies salvation by "works", he is referring specifically to the Torah (the Mosaic Law) and not to "good works" generally. The contextual arguments are strong - Paul is not rejecting the notion that "good works" are involved in justification / salvation, he is instead saying that works of Torah are not involved. I understand why you are mystified about the position of some of us, if you believe that by "works", Paul is referring to "good works". But it is clear that he is not. And I am more than happy to fill out that argument.

2. Are unable to see how salvation is still a gift if it is the Spirit - and not your moral self-effort - that is the engine that drives you to perform these works. Paul means exactly what he says in Romans 2 - eternal life is granted based on the works you exhibit. And Paul also means exactly what he says when he writes about how it is the Spriit that is responsible for these works, not the "self-will" of the believer.

My heart's Desire
Mar 27th 2008, 03:57 AM
For my part, and probably for a number of others, we have a hard time understanding why you and others seem to:

1. Deny the rather obvious truth that when Paul denies salvation by "works", he is referring specifically to the Torah (the Mosaic Law) and not to "good works" generally. The contextual arguments are strong - Paul is not rejecting the notion that "good works" are involved in justification / salvation, he is instead saying that works of Torah are not involved. I understand why you are mystified about the position of some of us, if you believe that by "works", Paul is referring to "good works". But it is clear that he is not. And I am more than happy to fill out that argument.

.
Actually, I know Paul is speaking of the Mosaic Law and understand that. Of all people who knew what it was to keep or try to keep the Law, Paul would have been one of them. So, he would definitely know what it was like to be freely saved by believing in the Lord Jesus apart from the works of the (Mosaic Law).

brakelite
Apr 2nd 2008, 12:02 AM
I think you already know I do not believe the apostle Paul got anything wrong (at least not when he wrote down scripture). I do not see anything in the verse to you quoted that contradicts that salvation is a free gift. When someone repents, and turns to God, God gives that person the free gift. Paul teaches those who have repented and recieved the free gift to perform deeds worthy of the free gift they have recieved when they repented. Paul teaches that in all his epistles. I do not see how Paul is somehow saying a gift is something to be earned by somebody's works. If it is earned it is not a gift. A gift is something that is not earned. Should we walk worthy of the vocation where we were called? Absolutely.

We all agree that salvation is a free gift. Salvation however is made up of several parts which comprise the whole, and all are individual free gifts, of which justification (the imputing of the righteousness of Christ),is but one part. Another part, also a free gift, is sanctification(the imparting of the righteousness of Christ.). This is as essential as justification, and salvation is incomplete without it.
Sanctification is represented in the parables as a cloak or coat or wedding garment comprising of the righteousness of Christ. Christians throughout the ages have had no problem with accepting the gift of justification. To believe that God declares us righteous and that our names are written in the books of heaven seems for most to be the easy part. They have however had great difficulty in accepting the gift of Christs righteousness in the life to such an extent that their works reflect the very character and nature of Christ.Works of obedience. Works of love. Works that reflect holy living.The bride is having as much trouble getting into that wedding garment as she has ever had.

That is why Jesus is saying to His church and warning His people to 'buy' white raiment to cover the shame of their nakedness. (Rev 3:18)

This is the very same item of clothing as Joshua the high priest was required to wear in Zech 3. Note in that vision who that it was the Lord who had to remove his filthy garments (Joshua's sinfulness; justification) and the Lord who clothed him.(Christ's righteousness; sanctification.). Our salvation is not assured without both. Both are gifts, both are essential, both are received by faith. But sin, disobedience, poor character development, worldliness, are all signs that the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit is lacking and thus salvation is in jeopardy.

cwb
Apr 2nd 2008, 05:30 AM
We all agree that salvation is a free gift.

You sure about that? Seems to me there are some who would like to argue the point. I am glad you agree that salvation is a free gift though:).



Salvation however is made up of several parts which comprise the whole, and all are individual free gifts, of which justification (the imputing of the righteousness of Christ),is but one part. Another part, also a free gift, is sanctification(the imparting of the righteousness of Christ.). This is as essential as justification, and salvation is incomplete without it.
Sanctification is represented in the parables as a cloak or coat or wedding garment comprising of the righteousness of Christ. Christians throughout the ages have had no problem with accepting the gift of justification. To believe that God declares us righteous and that our names are written in the books of heaven seems for most to be the easy part. They have however had great difficulty in accepting the gift of Christs righteousness in the life to such an extent that their works reflect the very character and nature of Christ.Works of obedience. Works of love. Works that reflect holy living.The bride is having as much trouble getting into that wedding garment as she has ever had.

That is why Jesus is saying to His church and warning His people to 'buy' white raiment to cover the shame of their nakedness. (Rev 3:18)

This is the very same item of clothing as Joshua the high priest was required to wear in Zech 3. Note in that vision who that it was the Lord who had to remove his filthy garments (Joshua's sinfulness; justification) and the Lord who clothed him.(Christ's righteousness; sanctification.). Our salvation is not assured without both. Both are gifts, both are essential, both are received by faith. But sin, disobedience, poor character development, worldliness, are all signs that the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit is lacking and thus salvation is in jeopardy.


I would agree with you that there are some Christians who fall into the category that you mention here - "They have however had great difficulty in accepting the gift of Christs righteousness in the life to such an extent that their works reflect the very character and nature of Christ."

I agree with you that there are some who have not yet come to place where their works reflect the very character and nature of Christ. I pray for those believers. As far as judging their salvation, that is outside my realm of expertise and ability. I have decided a long time ago to leave that in God's hand. He knows far more than me about every situation.

Owen
Apr 3rd 2008, 06:48 AM
What do you guys make of this passage?

“But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who ‘will render to each one according to his deeds’: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil… but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good... For there is no partiality with God... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified… in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.” (Romans 2:5-16)

Based on a face value reading, it seems like Paul is in some way espousing a characteristically Jewish understanding of salvation, that on the final day when we all appear at the judgment we will be evaluated - and justified or condemned - according to how we lived out our lives, whether our deeds were good or evil. In other words, it seems like Paul is presenting a doctrine of justification according to works.

I'd love to hear your thoughts...

He is presenting a doctrine of justification (the declaration of righteousness) with works. But it fits in perfectly fine with Romans 3-4. The major emphasis given within those two chapters is justification by the works of the Law. But the alternative Paul presents is justification by a faith that mimics Christ's faith (Greek should be translated "faith of Christ" NOT "faith in Christ).

In Romans 4:1-6, Paul addresses an objection that many Israelites might present: If boasting is now gone, what about everything Abraham received (promise-wise)? Is that not grounds for boasting? Could not Abraham boast since he was justified by works (to show that is the case, check out Genesis 22:11-18 and read with James 2:21)?

The answer is no. Why? Because before an ungodly person can do good, God accepts them first. In other words, to come to become accepted by God is by God graciously accepting them first, not by them earning it. The ungodly sinner is accepted by trusting God ("who believes in Him who justifies the ungodly", 4:5). The thief on the cross, for instance, had the trust that justified him without doing anything. In the Parable of the Pharisee and tax collector, the humbled, repentant tax collector went home justified.

Its interesting to note that Luke, a disciple of Paul, is including specific stories that align with his teacher's writing in Romans 4 and perhaps in other times. He is including stories of conversion and their initial acceptance in order to show a person doesn't initially become justified by working their way up.

But returning back to Romans 4, there is the person that works in verse 4. What they receive is what is due. Now we need not take this metaphor to be referring to merit as if this person is trying to come into God's favor. It is more probably better to associate this with a person like Abraham, since that is focal point of the objection Paul is answering. What is due to them is what they truly are. If a person does righteous things, they area going to receive the proper reward for doing what is right. That is what Abraham did. He obeyed God, and because of that he received gifts from God, such as the promise that his descendants would be greatly multiplied and conquer the gates of their enemies (Genesis 22:16-17).

Long story short, Paul in Romans 4 implicitly includes a justification by works. But first justification is not initially received by works, but it is graciously given when a person trusts in God. Secondly, it is not by works prescribed by the Law of Moses. The works would more properly be based upon the faith/trust in God (Romans 1:4). God's type of righteousness (as opposed to the righteousness based upon the Law) is revealed by the faith Christ had (Romans 3:21-22. Again, the faith OF Christ and not faith IN Christ). Likewise, by trusting in God we will see the way we are supposed to live (that is why faith is connected with convictions in Romans 14). The righteous shall live by faith.

And it because trust in God allows a previously unconverted person to learn what they are to do that God will see them as righteous without having done any works. But from that point they are to obey God. And this is where Romans 2 picks up.

So we do not initially become justified by works. But if time allows (there are exceptions such as the thief), we will remain justified by works that are based upon a trust in God (or as James say referring to Abraham in 2:22, "You see that faith was working with his works"). Because of that, it is those that seek good that will receive eternal life and those that do not will go on to destruction.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 4th 2008, 01:30 PM
What do you guys make of this passage?

“But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who ‘will render to each one according to his deeds’: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil… but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good... For there is no partiality with God... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified… in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.” (Romans 2:5-16)

Based on a face value reading, it seems like Paul is in some way espousing a characteristically Jewish understanding of salvation, that on the final day when we all appear at the judgment we will be evaluated - and justified or condemned - according to how we lived out our lives, whether our deeds were good or evil. In other words, it seems like Paul is presenting a doctrine of justification according to works.

I'd love to hear your thoughts...

My thoughts are that i fully agree with your observation. This justification based on works does NOT exclude Faith.
Faith does not trump action, rather it MEANS action.

To further this thought:





For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified…
if there was any person who suceeded in doing the law, that person would be justified by the law. Who falls into that category? Nobody. All have sinned and come short. There is only one person who was ever without sin and was completely a doer of the law - Jesus Christ. Everybody else has fallen short. That is why we needed Him to die for us and rise from the dead.

Correct, we all come short, but that does not exclude the fact that we should try our best and run a hard race as if we're competing with other athlets and win a race.
This is why Yeshua shed His blood for us.



But then as Paul said... that is of first importance. Without that belief [/Faith; emphasis mine] then you aren't even in the race. But it is still a race that must be ran with endurance and one isn't running a race without "doing". Notice that Paul never gives an analogy of Jesus running that race for you or having already ran that race for you so all you have to do is toe the starting line and BOOM... you are at the finish line.

Correct, nowhere in scripture does it state anything more than the fact that Yeshua shed His blood for our sins, which does not equal to Him having run the race for us.
And i seriously doubt He poured out His blood for a wicked and slothful servant.

We are called to follow in like manner crucifying our flesh, and doing His works, and continue therein.

No you can't rely on your works, BUT:

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 For by it the people of old received their commendation.
Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.


Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 4th 2008, 01:39 PM
One has to remember that the Apostle Paul (or any other disciple/believer) lived by no other text than the Torah, as the NT was not yet written or in circulation.


Actually, I know Paul is speaking of the Mosaic Law and understand that. Of all people who knew what it was to keep or try to keep the Law, Paul would have been one of them. So, he would definitely know what it was like to be freely saved by believing in the Lord Jesus apart from the works of the (Mosaic Law).

The misunderstading comes in when people assume Paul to say that to be saved meant an absolving of the Torah practises (Mosaic Law)
When Paul says that no one can earn salvation by works, he does not mean it is no longer to be practiced, rather Paul means that to just follow the Letter of the law in a legalistic way without it being in your heart, and that to do so would not gain you entrance into the covenant. This is why He said circumcision would not account for anything if one did it just to be considered in the covenant, because it is only through a circumcision of the heart that one is gaining entrance to the covenant with God.

You could compare it to a person who abides the Law just to reap the benefits for selfish gain.
Now compare that to a loving person who abides the Law because he cares for his fellow citizens and abides out of love.

Which of these two do you think is "in" and who is "out"

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Apr 4th 2008, 02:01 PM
One has to remember that the Apostle Paul (or any other disciple/believer) lived by no other text than the Torah, as the NT was not yet written or in circulation.


The misunderstading comes in when people assume Paul to say that to be saved meant an absolving of the Torah practises (Mosaic Law)
When Paul says that no one can earn salvation by works, he does not mean it is no longer to be practiced, rather Paul means that to just follow the Letter of the law in a legalistic way without it being in your heart, and that to do so would not gain you entrance into the covenant. This is why He said circumcision would not account for anything if one did it just to be considered in the covenant, because it is only through a circumcision of the heart that one is gaining entrance to the covenant with God.

You could compare it to a person who abides the Law just to reap the benefits for selfish gain.
Now compare that to a loving person who abides the Law because he cares for his fellow citizens and abides out of love.

Which of these two do you think is "in" and who is "out"

Shalom,
Tanja
This is where you are wrong though... No where does Paul tell the Gentiles that they are to follow the Law. It isn't necessary in any form... be it selfish gain or spiritual gain. To tell folks that they are to follow the Law is in fact exactly what the Judaizer's were doing that sent Paul to Jerusalem to meet with the elders and other apostles. To teach they should follow that Law is not only contrary to what the elders and apostles said... it is contrary to the Holy Spirit who was also mentioned in the letter that they sent out.

Tanja.... you WILL NOT nor CAN YOU find anything in any of the letters of Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles, that teaches any such thing. Even when James writes to the Jewish Christians who did in fact follow the Law of Moses... He makes it clear that this law has NO power at all to save their souls.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 4th 2008, 02:53 PM
PP,
so you propose that no one should preach you shall not kill? Otherwise it would be judaizing?

Jesus Himself said:

Mat 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,
Mat 23:3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you--but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.


I am not arguing that following the Law has the power to save, because it doesn't!
However a saved person should desire to follow the commandments of God as per the instructions written on a soft and willing heart. Without that being the case, no adhering to the Law will save you.
That is what the writers of that time were saying!

If you think i'm wrong, so be it, but i know i am not.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Apr 4th 2008, 03:03 PM
PP,
so you propose that no one should preach you shall not kill? Otherwise it would be judaizing?

Jesus Himself said:

Mat 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,
Mat 23:3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you--but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.


I am not arguing that following the Law has the power to save, because it doesn't!
However a saved person should desire to follow the commandments of God as per the instructions written on a soft and willing heart. Without that being the case, no adhering to the Law will save you.
That is what the writers of that time were saying!

If you think i'm wrong, so be it, but i know i am not.

Shalom,
Tanja
Come on Tanja... you know "the Law of Moses" isn't "thou shall not kill." You don't follow the Law of Moses now. Not really. You follow it as best you can but you don't really follow the entire Law of Moses nor can you. You can desire it until Jesus returns and the best you can ever do in that desire... you live a life of Romans chapter 7 and you never do figure out what it means to move on into chapter 8. ;)

As a Gentile... You are not under that yoke of bondage. You can put yourself there if that is what you choose but you aren't under it. As I have stated many times... you want to live there fine. If you think it makes you into something different and special fine. But when you say "Paul did not say it was to no longer be practiced" and you mean by the Gentile church... then I'm going to call you on that every time. That is contrary to Scripture because your implication is clearly that it is something Gentiles are supposed to do... subject themselves to the law of Moses.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 4th 2008, 03:19 PM
Come on Tanja... you know "the Law of Moses" isn't "thou shall not kill."
Why Not? "Thou shall not kill" was one of the Laws given at Mt Sinai!
Futhermore, "Thou shall not kill" is an extension of the two greatest Commandments:

Mat 22:37 He said to him, " "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
Mat 22:38 This is the greatest and first commandment.
Mat 22:39 And a second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Mar 12:29 Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Mar 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
Mar 12:31 The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

And in the OT:

Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Deu 6:5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
Deu 6:6 And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart.
Deu 6:7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.

Jesus started out with Hear o Israel.... this is a direct reference to the scriptures of the OT Law. The same Law that was given to Moses, and which he passed on:

Deu 5:1 And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, "Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the rules that I speak in your hearing today, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them.

Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 Not with our fathers did the LORD make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today.
Deu 5:4 The LORD spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of the fire,
Deu 5:5 while I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the LORD. For you were afraid because of the fire, and you did not go up into the mountain. He said:
Deu 5:6 "'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
Deu 5:7 "'You shall have no other gods before me.
Deu 5:8 "'You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Deu 5:9 You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Deu 5:10 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Deu 5:11 "'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
Deu 5:12 "'Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you.
Deu 5:13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
Deu 5:14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant, or your ox or your donkey or any of your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.
Deu 5:15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
Deu 5:16 "'Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may go well with you in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.
Deu 5:17 "'You shall not murder.
Deu 5:18 "'And you shall not commit adultery.
Deu 5:19 "'And you shall not steal.
Deu 5:20 "'And you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Deu 5:21 "'And you shall not covet your neighbor's wife. And you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his male servant, or his female servant, his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.'
Deu 5:22 "These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly at the mountain out of the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and he added no more. And he wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Everything else that was said or written by Moses in the book of the Law was further extension of those Laws... consider it a very detailed instruction manual for how people were to conduct themselves.

The part they missed was to circumcise their hearts.

This is the same part some Pharisees of Jesus's time missed. It wasn't that they shouldn't abide by the law anymore, but rather that they should have the Law in their hearts and follow it with the right motive.

I see you also consider the Law to be a yoke of bondage, but it isn't.

Let me ask you: Do you consider the laws of this country a bondage, or a yoke of some sort?

I know i don't, cause i have no problem abiding by those laws because i know they are there for everyone's good (ideally). I see it the same way with God's Laws.
Edited to add: Therefore even while i abide by the Law, i'm not under the Law. Being law abiding does not equal being under the Law. Being under the Law in biblical terms actually means that the law requires punishment for an individual's sins committed by having broken the Law. However the requirement for punishment does not apply to those who abide in Yeshua/the Word/The Law He gave because it's their heart's desire.


As for what i fail to do according to the Law, God will teach me and correct me in due time. And i know i have His mercy through the blood of Yeshua on my side. I never said i was perfect.....but that doesn't and shouldn't stop me from trying to be pleasing to Him, by obeying Him to the best of my abilities.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Apr 4th 2008, 04:43 PM
Why Not? "Thou shall not kill" was one of the Laws given at Mt Sinai!
Futhermore, "Thou shall not kill" is an extension of the two greatest Commandments:

Mat 22:37 He said to him, " "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
Mat 22:38 This is the greatest and first commandment.
Mat 22:39 And a second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Mar 12:29 Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Mar 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
Mar 12:31 The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

And in the OT:

Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Deu 6:5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
Deu 6:6 And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart.
Deu 6:7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.

Jesus started out with Hear o Israel.... this is a direct reference to the scriptures of the OT Law. The same Law that was given to Moses, and which he passed on:

Deu 5:1 And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, "Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the rules that I speak in your hearing today, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them.

Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 Not with our fathers did the LORD make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today.
Deu 5:4 The LORD spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of the fire,
Deu 5:5 while I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the LORD. For you were afraid because of the fire, and you did not go up into the mountain. He said:
Deu 5:6 "'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
Deu 5:7 "'You shall have no other gods before me.
Deu 5:8 "'You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Deu 5:9 You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Deu 5:10 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Deu 5:11 "'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
Deu 5:12 "'Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you.
Deu 5:13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
Deu 5:14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant, or your ox or your donkey or any of your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.
Deu 5:15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
Deu 5:16 "'Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may go well with you in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.
Deu 5:17 "'You shall not murder.
Deu 5:18 "'And you shall not commit adultery.
Deu 5:19 "'And you shall not steal.
Deu 5:20 "'And you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Deu 5:21 "'And you shall not covet your neighbor's wife. And you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his male servant, or his female servant, his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.'
Deu 5:22 "These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly at the mountain out of the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and he added no more. And he wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Everything else that was said or written by Moses in the book of the Law was further extension of those Laws... consider it a very detailed instruction manual for how people were to conduct themselves.

The part they missed was to circumcise their hearts.

This is the same part some Pharisees of Jesus's time missed. It wasn't that they shouldn't abide by the law anymore, but rather that they should have the Law in their hearts and follow it with the right motive.

I see you also consider the Law to be a yoke of bondage, but it isn't.

Let me ask you: Do you consider the laws of this country a bondage, or a yoke of some sort?

I know i don't, cause i have no problem abiding by those laws because i know they are there for everyone's good. I see it the same way with God's Laws.


As for what i fail to do according to the Law, God will teach me and correct me in due time. And i know i have His mercy through the blood of Yeshua on my side. I never said i was perfect.....but that doesn't and shouldn't stop me from trying to be pleasing to Him, by obeying Him.

Shalom,
Tanja
The Law given at Mount Sinai would have been plenty had the children of Israel not rebelled against those ten laws that God gave. If they would have understood those ten then they would have understood Jesus' point when he told them the two greatest laws. That should have been enough. It wasn't.

The fact that Moses included those ten laws in his over 600 laws should stand as a no-brainer. Those were given to him directly by God. To not include those wouldn't have made a whole bunch of sense.

And by the way... Jesus is not coming back to receive those trying their best. He's coming back to receive a perfect, spotless bride. The Law cannot make you that way nor will following it. That is done and done only through Jesus Christ. All that Law can do for you is keep you a sinner because you can't do it... no matter how hard that you try.

ProjectPeter
Apr 4th 2008, 04:45 PM
Why Not? "Thou shall not kill" was one of the Laws given at Mt Sinai!
Futhermore, "Thou shall not kill" is an extension of the two greatest Commandments:

Mat 22:37 He said to him, " "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
Mat 22:38 This is the greatest and first commandment.
Mat 22:39 And a second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Mar 12:29 Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Mar 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
Mar 12:31 The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

And in the OT:

Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Deu 6:5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
Deu 6:6 And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart.
Deu 6:7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.

Jesus started out with Hear o Israel.... this is a direct reference to the scriptures of the OT Law. The same Law that was given to Moses, and which he passed on:

Deu 5:1 And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, "Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the rules that I speak in your hearing today, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them.

Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 Not with our fathers did the LORD make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today.
Deu 5:4 The LORD spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of the fire,
Deu 5:5 while I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the LORD. For you were afraid because of the fire, and you did not go up into the mountain. He said:
Deu 5:6 "'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
Deu 5:7 "'You shall have no other gods before me.
Deu 5:8 "'You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Deu 5:9 You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Deu 5:10 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Deu 5:11 "'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
Deu 5:12 "'Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you.
Deu 5:13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
Deu 5:14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant, or your ox or your donkey or any of your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.
Deu 5:15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
Deu 5:16 "'Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may go well with you in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.
Deu 5:17 "'You shall not murder.
Deu 5:18 "'And you shall not commit adultery.
Deu 5:19 "'And you shall not steal.
Deu 5:20 "'And you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Deu 5:21 "'And you shall not covet your neighbor's wife. And you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his male servant, or his female servant, his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.'
Deu 5:22 "These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly at the mountain out of the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and he added no more. And he wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Everything else that was said or written by Moses in the book of the Law was further extension of those Laws... consider it a very detailed instruction manual for how people were to conduct themselves.

The part they missed was to circumcise their hearts.

This is the same part some Pharisees of Jesus's time missed. It wasn't that they shouldn't abide by the law anymore, but rather that they should have the Law in their hearts and follow it with the right motive.

I see you also consider the Law to be a yoke of bondage, but it isn't.

Let me ask you: Do you consider the laws of this country a bondage, or a yoke of some sort?

I know i don't, cause i have no problem abiding by those laws because i know they are there for everyone's good (ideally). I see it the same way with God's Laws.
Edited to add: Therefore even while i abide by the Law, i'm not under the Law. Being law abiding does not equal being under the Law. Being under the Law in biblical terms actually means that the law requires punishment for an individual's sins committed by having broken the Law. However the requirement for punishment does not apply to those who abide in Yeshua/the Word/The Law He gave because it's their heart's desire.


As for what i fail to do according to the Law, God will teach me and correct me in due time. And i know i have His mercy through the blood of Yeshua on my side. I never said i was perfect.....but that doesn't and shouldn't stop me from trying to be pleasing to Him, by obeying Him to the best of my abilities.

Shalom,
Tanja
And oh yeah... the laws of this country I have to follow just like the Jews had to follow the laws of their country even after the death of Christ. But the laws of this country won't save me just as the Law of Moses couldn't save the Jews. Nor are these laws perfect and they are getting more goofy as we near the end of time. There will come a time when no Christian will likely be able to follow those laws. God's perfect law... we can follow that always.

drew
Apr 4th 2008, 05:01 PM
Actually, I know Paul is speaking of the Mosaic Law and understand that. Of all people who knew what it was to keep or try to keep the Law, Paul would have been one of them. So, he would definitely know what it was like to be freely saved by believing in the Lord Jesus apart from the works of the (Mosaic Law).
Yes, but the problem is this: the argument that "works are not salvific" is frequently expressed by appealing to Paul's statements about how we are not justified by "works". But if, as you seem to agree, it is specifically the "works of Torah" that are what Paul is referring to, this takes away the force of the argument against good works being salvific. Torah has been ruled out as salvific, but good works have not.

And I think that Romans 2 makes it clear that indeed "good works" are salvific. And, as has been repeatedly argued, this statement in no way contradicts the notion that we are justified by faith. I humbly suggest that people see a contradiction here because they do not take Paul's justification model seriously. Paul, I claim, teaches that through faith and faith alone, we are given the Spirit, and it is the Spirit acting in us that manifests the "good works" by which we will indeed be given eternal life as per Romans 2.

I think people cannot, or will not, understand this "time-structure" to Paul's justification model. So they usually have to bend Romans 2 badly out of shape to make sense of the whole thing.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 4th 2008, 05:10 PM
PP,
you're missing my point, for reasons unknown to me.


And by the way... Jesus is not coming back to receive those trying their best. He's coming back to receive a perfect, spotless bride. The Law cannot make you that way nor will following it. That is done and done only through Jesus Christ. All that Law can do for you is keep you a sinner because you can't do it... no matter how hard that you try.


The perfect spotless bride... well i gotta ask: How can we be that perfect spotless bride?
Only through the Blood of Christ can we be that. No argument there.

However the time application of that may be amiss... if we have been washed clean and made perfect by His blood, then why do many of us still sin? This includes very devout Christians. (even you and me)

So, when you look at that picture and you see that no one has attained the perfect status yet, then what remains to be done?
Should we sit idle and break Law after Law, or should we strive to do what is pleasing in His sight? This time here on earth should not be wasted thinking "Oh i have said the sinner's prayer, therefore i'm saved now".
You yourself agree that there needs to be obedience in the Christian walk.
The point were we differ is how far that word carries as per God's Commandments.

By their fruit you will know them. God expects us to bear fruit... so how is this done?
The motivation of this comes through a relationship with Jesus/the Word, which leads to an eventual baptism in His name and fire, then understanding of what we are to do and how we are to conduct ourselves. The Holy Spirit is our guide and will not contradict the Word. IOW the Holy Spirit will not teach anything contrary to what Jesus said while here or before in the OT.

If you believe the Law has been nailed to the cross or is no longer relevant to us, then what example of conduct do we have? In the NT we see Jesus practicing Torah, the right way.

Your argument would likely be that he was under the Law as anyone at that time since it was before the cross, but why would God take away a model of rules for us to know what's expected of us? To say he tossed something so fundamental out would make God look incompetent.

God does not stoop to our level, He raises us to His. This can only happen if we apply His teachings, old testament and new.
His Law is perfect, and foundational, it remains unchanged and will still be here in the future, when Jesus reigns His Kingdom on earth. A careful reading of scriptures reveals just that.

Anyway, we've discussed this before, and i'm sure you'll find lots to disagree with.

I'm not here to argue, rather i was hoping that i have learned to express myself better, so that perhaps you could understand my viewpoint. Oddly enough, i'm not alone in this belief.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Apr 4th 2008, 05:38 PM
PP,
you're missing my point, for reasons unknown to me.Don't know why it is unknown... I made it right clear in that last post. ;)



The perfect spotless bride... well i gotta ask: How can we be that perfect spotless bride?
Only through the Blood of Christ can we be that. No argument there.Then what does the Law of Moses matter?


However the time application of that may be amiss... if we have been washed clean and made perfect by His blood, then why do many of us still sin? This includes very devout Christians. (even you and me)

So, when you look at that picture and you see that no one has attained the perfect status yet, then what remains to be done?
Should we sit idle and break Law after Law, or should we strive to do what is pleasing in His sight? This time here on earth should not be wasted thinking "Oh i have said the sinner's prayer, therefore i'm saved now".
You yourself agree that there needs to be obedience in the Christian walk.
The point were we differ is how far that word carries as per God's Commandments.

By their fruit you will know them. God expects us to bear fruit... so how is this done?
The motivation of this comes through a relationship with Jesus/the Word, which leads to an eventual baptism in His name and fire, then understanding of what we are to do and how we are to conduct ourselves. The Holy Spirit is our guide and will not contradict the Word. IOW the Holy Spirit will not teach anything contrary to what Jesus said while here or before in the OT.

If you believe the Law has been nailed to the cross or is no longer relevant to us, then what example of conduct do we have? In the NT we see Jesus practicing Torah, the right way.

Your argument would likely be that he was under the Law as anyone at that time since it was before the cross, but why would God take away a model of rules for us to know what's expected of us? To say he tossed something so fundamental out would make God look incompetent.

God does not stoop to our level, He raises us to His. This can only happen if we apply His teachings, old testament and new.
His Law is perfect, and foundational, it remains unchanged and will still be here in the future, when Jesus reigns His Kingdom on earth. A careful reading of scriptures reveals just that.

Anyway, we've discussed this before, and i'm sure you'll find lots to disagree with.

I'm not here to argue, rather i was hoping that i have learned to express myself better, so that perhaps you could understand my viewpoint. Oddly enough, i'm not alone in this belief.

Shalom,
TanjaThe Law is ABSOLUTELY relevant when used lawfully. The Law is NOT for the righteous... but the ungodly. Understand that Tanja and you will understand a boatload.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 4th 2008, 06:46 PM
PP,

i have no idea why you think I'm not using the Law lawfully.

And the Law not being for the righteous.... i suppose the righteous are above the Law then?

IMO the righteous may not need the Law because they already abide by it. That doesn't mean the Law is gone. However, with each of us still being in this sinful flesh, we all still need the Law to instruct us. It serves as a reminder if you will.

Shalom,
Tanja

Gloryseeker
Apr 4th 2008, 06:53 PM
My Pastor likes to say "By grace we receive salvation - but that only gets you in the door to heaven, and I want to be in the first row!"

We are saved by faith in Christ Jesus . . . . but our works will determine - I'm not sure these are the rights words - our role in heaven. That is, if you've lived an outstanding life, living as an example, doing great works for God, then you will be rewarded in heaven. Front row seat, maybe? A Greater responsibility in heaven?

Whereas, if you accept Christ but then live a works-less life, do nothing to demonstrate Christ's love, you get into heaven, but that's about it. Back of the line, not trusted by the Lord with any special duties in heaven, or however you'd like to phrase it.


So if I understand him correctly, faith gets you into heaven, works determine your role in heaven?

That seems to make sense to me. Demonstrate your devotion and ability to get things done through works, and God says "good and faithful servant, I am pleased with you, and have a special assignment for you in heaven!"

John146
Apr 4th 2008, 07:14 PM
PP,

i have no idea why you think I'm not using the Law lawfully.

And the Law not being for the righteous.... i suppose the righteous are above the Law then?

IMO the righteous may not need the Law because they already abide by it. That doesn't mean the Law is gone. However, with each of us still being in this sinful flesh, we all still need the Law to instruct us. It serves as a reminder if you will.

Shalom,
Tanja

Do you agree that we, as believers, are no longer under the law (of Moses)?

23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. - Galatians 3:23-25

14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? - Romans 6:14-16

10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. - Galatians 3:10-11

17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. - Galatians 5:17-18

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 4th 2008, 07:17 PM
Gloryseeker,

I agree with the overall idea of your post.
I would like to point out though that i would word one sentence differently:

So if I understand him correctly, BELIEF gets you into heaven, works determine your role in heaven?

The reason i would never use the Word Faith there, is because Faith is not suprior to action, but it MEANS action. It means to do, to live etc... Study the Hebrew words emun/emunah.

Once i studied these words, it became clear to me that Faith does not equal Belief, but rather it is a evolved form of believing which now includes action. Once those distinctions become clear, reading the whole of the scriptures suddenly changes your understanding.

That's the best way i can explain that for now.


I personally want to serve God and i want to serve Him on His terms, rather than risk not even sittinng in the backrow because we all know what happened to that wicked and slothful servant who was given only one talent and burried it.

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 4th 2008, 07:52 PM
John146,

I will address your post in segments :)


Do you agree that we, as believers, are no longer under the law (of Moses)?

23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. - Galatians 3:23-25I agree that as a Believer i'm not under the Law anymore, rather now i uphold the Law.

Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. *read above post in the word Faith

However i'm not perfect, so in the areas where i'm still in need of learning the Law still applies to me as i go through the process of it being written on my heart.

I have 2 questions for you:
Do you agree that salvation is an ongoing process, and not instantanoeus?
Are you perfect already, or are you too still in need of schooling?


14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? - Romans 6:14-16I agree that as a Believer i'm under the Grace of God.
The last verse shows that my desire as a Believer in God is to yield myself to obey God unto righteousness. This is called Faith.


10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. - Galatians 3:10-11I agree that a robotic and automatic observance of the law will gain me nothing, until it is entering and written in my heart, and i understand the depth of that commandment with the guidance of the Spirit. I also understand that God knows my limits in this fleshly form while He sees my heart, and my desire to please Him and obey Him. Therefore i claim the Blood of yeshua upon me when i err, and i am saved. The Just/righteous live by Faith (doing)


17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. - Galatians 5:17-18
When i bow to the Spirit who has guided me into all Truth and taught me the Law of liberty i submit myself to God as a true servant, at that time i'm not under the Law, but rather uphold it.

Another question for you:

Let's suppose God set the speed limits in this country.
You're a Believer and one day you learn of this Law you always obey, therefore you are upholding the Law, while not being under it (requirement of punishment for breaking the Law)

Now one sunny day you're caught up in wanting to get to your friend's house in a rush because of something special going on and you put the pedal to the metal, and you get caught.

You've been a good boy til now. Now the Law caught you as an offender and you are under the law requiring punishment.
You've reverted to being a sinner in this instance. The law requires punishment for that.
However, you lift your eyes to God, and say, I'm sorry, i slipped, please forgive me. So God takes some of His Son's blood and clears your debt.

Would He do so if you continuously broke that speed limit all the time? How would this be if you were not a Believer? Does he pour out His blood over a non Believer?

Believer or not, your actions speak louder than your words, and reveal the truth in your heart.

The question from me to you in light of above scenario is does it make you a legalist if you obey the Law of God with a heart of desire to follow His instructions?

This may be not the best analogy and there's some things i'd want to go in depth about.

Shalom,
Tanja

VerticalReality
Apr 4th 2008, 07:59 PM
Here's a point many should understand about the law. If you have law it is because you have sin. If you are in Christ you have no need for law because you shouldn't be sinning. That's why those who walk in the Spirit are no longer under law as Paul says in Galatians 5:17. Only in the flesh are you under law. In Christ there is no law. That's restoration. In the beginning there was no law. Jesus Christ our Lord came to restore that which mankind gave away. By faith in His work we have no need of law.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 4th 2008, 08:18 PM
Boy do i ever disagree that in the beginning there was no Law.

Before the fall of man there were at least two commandments God gave that we can easily discern:

Observe the Sabbath
Do not eat from the tree

It's sad you think you have no need for the Law, you know i'm sure you too still have some sin in you that needs correction and training. Only the Law can point that out to you, and only then can you make corrections.

Now i'm not the one to judge if you're worthy of the blood of Christ, but if you are then you have nothing to fear. But the point remains that God wants us to search our hearts all the time, and faults can only be uncovered through Him.

Shalom,
Tanja

John146
Apr 4th 2008, 08:22 PM
John146,

I will address your post in segments :)
I agree that as a Believer i'm not under the Law anymore, rather now i uphold the Law.

Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. *read above post in the word Faith

However i'm not perfect, so in the areas where i'm still in need of learning the Law still applies to me as i go through the process of it being written on my heart.

I have 2 questions for you:
Do you agree that salvation is an ongoing process, and not instantanoeus?
Are you perfect already, or are you too still in need of schooling?

I agree that as a Believer i'm under the Grace of God.
The last verse shows that my desire as a Believer in God is to yield myself to obey God unto righteousness. This is called Faith.

I agree that a robotic and automatic observance of the law will gain me nothing, until it is entering and written in my heart, and i understand the depth of that commandment with the guidance of the Spirit. I also understand that God knows my limits in this fleshly form while He sees my heart, and my desire to please Him and obey Him. Therefore i claim the Blood of yeshua upon me when i err, and i am saved. The Just/righteous live by Faith (doing)

When i bow to the Spirit who has guided me into all Truth and taught me the Law of liberty i submit myself to God as a true servant, at that time i'm not under the Law, but rather uphold it.

Another question for you:

Let's suppose God set the speed limits in this country.
You're a Believer and one day you learn of this Law you always obey, therefore you are upholding the Law, while not being under it (requirement of punishment for breaking the Law)

Now one sunny day you're caught up in wanting to get to your friend's house in a rush because of something special going on and you put the pedal to the metal, and you get caught.

You've been a good boy til now. Now the Law caught you as an offender and you are under the law requiring punishment.
You've reverted to being a sinner in this instance. The law requires punishment for that.
However, you lift your eyes to God, and say, I'm sorry, i slipped, please forgive me. So God takes some of His Son's blood and clears your debt.

Would He do so if you continuously broke that speed limit all the time? How would this be if you were not a Believer? Does he pour out His blood over a non Believer?

Believer or not, your actions speak louder than your words, and reveal the truth in your heart.

The question from me to you in light of above scenario is does it make you a legalist if you obey the Law of God with a heart of desire to follow His instructions?

This may be not the best analogy and there's some things i'd want to go in depth about.

Shalom,
Tanja

Goodness gracious. A simple yes or no is all I was looking for. :)

9Marksfan
Apr 4th 2008, 08:29 PM
Whereas, if you accept Christ but then live a works-less life, do nothing to demonstrate Christ's love, you get into heaven, but that's about it.

No faith without works is dead - if your faith does not produce works, it's not real - and you won't get to Heaven. We are saved by faith alone, certainly - but saving faith is NEVER alone - it ALWAYS produces good works.


Back of the line, not trusted by the Lord with any special duties in heaven, or however you'd like to phrase it.

Tanya has phrased it best by referring to the wicked servant with the one talent.


So if I understand him correctly, faith gets you into heaven, works determine your role in heaven?

That seems to make sense to me. Demonstrate your devotion and ability to get things done through works, and God says "good and faithful servant, I am pleased with you, and have a special assignment for you in heaven!"

But note from 1 Cor 3 that EVERYONE builds on the foundation - even those who are savd as through fire (ie by the skin of their teeth) - if we think that we can get into Heaven by some kind of "belief" apart from a live faith, tha expresses itself in works, we're going to be in for a VERY nasty surprise.......

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 4th 2008, 08:31 PM
Goodness gracious. A simple yes or no is all I was looking for. :)

:lol: well i wanted to be thorough, as i thought that if i gave a simple yes or no, it may appear contradictory to my previous posts.
Also it might have been very confusing for some.

I want to be sure i can make myself clear.

Though i have learned that when it comes to this topic it is never clear to some, and mainly those who seem to think that Grace and Law are in opposition to one another.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Apr 4th 2008, 08:55 PM
PP,

i have no idea why you think I'm not using the Law lawfully.

And the Law not being for the righteous.... i suppose the righteous are above the Law then?

IMO the righteous may not need the Law because they already abide by it. That doesn't mean the Law is gone. However, with each of us still being in this sinful flesh, we all still need the Law to instruct us. It serves as a reminder if you will.

Shalom,
TanjaAnd there ya go Tanya. Your showing what you tap dance around all the time right here. You believe that only the followers of the Law can be righteous Tanja and that... that is entering into Galatians danger. You do not need the Law as a tutor if the Spirit of God abides in you. The time for a tutor has passed. Again... Scripture is very clear on that matter.

John146
Apr 4th 2008, 09:01 PM
:lol: well i wanted to be thorough, as i thought that if i gave a simple yes or no, it may appear contradictory to my previous posts.
Also it might have been very confusing for some.

I want to be sure i can make myself clear.

That's okay. I just hope you don't expect me to respond to every point you made because you went beyond the intended scope of my question. :)



Though i have learned that when it comes to this topic it is never clear to some, and mainly those who seem to think that Grace and Law are in opposition to one another.

Shalom,
Tanja

The main thing is for us not to think that we have to live up to the law in order to be saved. Because as Paul explains in Galatians 3:10, "as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.".

Thank God we are not under that kind of pressure to perfectly live up to the law because none of us can perfectly follow the law all the time. If we wanted to be under the law then if we messed up even once then we would be cursed.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 4th 2008, 09:07 PM
And there ya go Tanya. Your showing what you tap dance around all the time right here. You believe that only the followers of the Law can be righteous Tanja and that... that is entering into Galatians danger. You do not need the Law as a tutor if the Spirit of God abides in you. The time for a tutor has passed. Again... Scripture is very clear on that matter.I'm neither tap dancing, nor believing what you think i believe.


You profess you be a Believer, right? As such i assume you do not steal, not murder, nor covet? If so, then you're upholding the Law just as i am. This earns either one of us the status of righteousness, as we both do these things because we believe and we both have faith. As Believers it is our desire to do the right thing.

The difference is only in what i still consider to be Law and what you don't.

The only thing i disagree with you is that i still believe certain Laws that mainstream christianity declares as done away to be in full force, and the other thing i disagree with you is that there's no longer a need for a tutor.

IMO becoming Godly is a lifelong task. There is, and always will be room for improvement. As such a tutor/ the scriptures/ the laws can teach you until the day you die.

I have no problem with the fact that you disagree, however, i wish you would refrain from painting my words a different color than i put them in.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Apr 4th 2008, 09:10 PM
I'm neither tap dancing, nor believing what you think i believe.


You profess you be a Believer, right? As such i assume you do not steal, not murder, nor covet? If so, then you're upholding the Law just as i am. This earns either one of us the status of righteousness, as we both do these things because we believe and we both have faith.

The difference is only in what i still consider to be Law and what you don't.

The only thing i disagree with you is that i still believe certain Laws that mainstream christianity declares as done away to be in full force, and the other thing i disagree with you is that there's no longer a need for a tutor.

IMO becoming Godly is a lifelong task. There is, and always will be room for improvement. As such a tutor/ the scriptures/ the laws can teach you til the day you die.

I have no problem with the fact that you disagree, however, i wish you would refrain from painting my words a different color than i put them in.

Shalom,
Tanja
And again Tanja... the Law of Moses goes MUCH further than simply don't covet, steal, or murder. You are simply quoting the Ten Commandments penned by God on a mountain. That predated the Law of Moses and was simply added in the Law of Moses. Those commandments have been punishable by God well before the Moses ever entered the scene.

And you aren't disagreeing with me about the tutor thing. You are disagreeing with Scripture.

Owen
Apr 4th 2008, 09:11 PM
I'm neither tap dancing, nor believing what you think i believe.


You profess you be a Believer, right? As such i assume you do not steal, not murder, nor covet? If so, then you're upholding the Law just as i am. This earns either one of us the status of righteousness, as we both do these things because we believe and we both have faith.

The difference is only in what i still consider to be Law and what you don't.

The only thing i disagree with you is that i still believe certain Laws that mainstream christianity declares as done away to be in full force, and the other thing i disagree with you is that there's no longer a need for a tutor.

IMO becoming Godly is a lifelong task. There is, and always will be room for improvement. As such a tutor/ the scriptures/ the laws can teach you til the day you die.

I have no problem with the fact that you disagree, however, i wish you would refrain from painting my words a different color than i put them in.

Shalom,
Tanja

Allow me to interject here.

What things of the Law of Moses do you think are necessary to uphold today? What do you base that upon?

Secondly, how do you define the idea that Paul presents where he says "you are not justified by works of the Law?"

Thirdly, where is there a New Testament exhortation to obey the Law to the extent (as you answered in question 1) that you say it should be followed?

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 4th 2008, 09:17 PM
Thank God we are not under that kind of pressure to perfectly live up to the law because none of us can perfectly follow the law all the time. If we wanted to be under the law then if we messed up even once then we would be cursed.There's no pressure other than your own desire to fulfil the Law.

Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


I do believe though that the term "under the Law" is greatly misunderstood.

You're only under the Law when you break it. The Law is NOT a form of bondage.


Really, take this verse apart in all sorts of angles, and see what it really talks about:

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

The Law of sin and death is "the requirements against us" which are the punishments as set forth in the law in case it was broken. (which were nailed to the cross)

The Law of the Spirit of life is the Law obeyed through the Spirit lived out in Faith.

When you obey the Law you are set free..... you don't have to worry about punishments.

The blood of Yeshua covers your sin, not the law.

Read this post for a thorough explanation: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1595486#post1595486

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 4th 2008, 09:26 PM
PP


And again Tanja... the Law of Moses goes MUCH further than simply don't covet, steal, or murder. You are simply quoting the Ten Commandments penned by God on a mountain. That predated the Law of Moses and was simply added in the Law of Moses. Those commandments have been punishable by God well before the Moses ever entered the scene.


Yes, what you call the law of Moses goes further, but it is still of God.
ALL commandments hang on the 2 greatest.
So what's the difference? If you offend in one then you offend in all.

BTW, How come you don't observe the Sabbath then? Afterall it's in the ten commandments.

Do bring me a Law of Moses to discuss it.


And you aren't disagreeing with me about the tutor thing. You are disagreeing with Scripture.

I'll let no man judge me on that but God.

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 4th 2008, 09:30 PM
Owen,

Let me ask you which law do you consider the "law of Moses"?

Dietary? Sabbath? Feast and festivals? I think we need to define and agree on that first before we can discuss this further.
Please show me that, and i'll take it all from there and answer the rest of your questions.

Shalom,
Tanja

drew
Apr 4th 2008, 09:32 PM
If I may insert my snout......

I have only scanned a lot of your posts, and I apologize if I repeat what others have said. I am a little burnt from work and "only my own words make sense to me" at this point. I hope to later revisit your posts.

My understanding of the Scriptural teaching is this:

1. Despite what most evangelical protestants believe, Christians will indeed be judged by the works their lives exhibit, with eternal life being truly at stake. I see no other way to read Romans 2 than this.

2. The Law has not been nullified (as per Romans 3). Stated crudely the Torah has been "retired" and we are under obligation to obey the "essence of Torah" - perhaps best summarized in the command to love God and others as yourselves. We do not need to obey the specificities of Torah, we need to obey this "essence" of Torah.

3. We are still "under Law" in the sense that we will indeed be judged (as per Romans 2) by how well we obey this "essence" of Torah. And eternal life is at stake here.

4. The Torah served a special purpose in God's plan of redemption - to cause sin to reach its full expression in national Israel so that it could then be condemned in the flesh of her faithful Messiah Jesus. Any NT Wright fans out there will that I have shamelessly co-opted this idea from him.

5. The Spirit, given to us on the basis of faith alone, empowers us to be able to do what we otherwise would not - obey the "essence" of Torah to the extent that we will pass the Romans 2 test and be assured of eternal life.

Owen
Apr 4th 2008, 09:33 PM
Owen,

Let me ask you which law do you consider the "law of Moses"?

Dietary? Sabbath? Feast and festivals? I think we need to define and agree on that first before we can discuss this further.
Please show me that, and i'll take it all from there and answer the rest of your questions.

Shalom,
Tanja

The Law of Moses when the Bible mentions "the Law" is everything contained in the Law of Moses. It includes the dietary, sabbath, feast and festivals, etc.

ProjectPeter
Apr 4th 2008, 09:34 PM
PP


Yes, what you call the law of Moses goes further, but it is still of God.
ALL commandments hang on the 2 greatest.
So what's the difference? If you offend in one then you offend in all.

BTW, How come you don't observe the Sabbath then? Afterall it's in the ten commandments.

Do bring me a Law of Moses to discuss it.



I'll let no man judge me on that but God.

Shalom,
Tanja
I do observe the Sabbath just as the disciples observed it. I follow the Lord of the Sabbath.

As to your disagreement with Scripture... Scripture does judge you on that Tanja unless you have now discarded the New Testament epistles as valid Scripture. I certainly hope you haven't fallen into that camp and line of thinking.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 4th 2008, 09:44 PM
PP,
i am not in disagreement with scripture, that's your opinion, and nothing more. I'm not afraid of being judged on that. I am not dismissing the NT at all. I see a harmonious continuance from the old into the New.

The disciples in Yeshuas time followed Yeshua, but they also observed the seventh day as did Yeshua

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 4th 2008, 09:56 PM
Owen,

to be honest, we have had this debate before.

There are some laws sacrificial for example that cannot be practiced today, because the law has rules about how and where and when this can be done. The Temple no longer exists, so therefore it would be a sin to sacrifice.

The Sabbath Law as PP pointed out existed in the ten commandments even long before God ever gave this to Moses.

Please note that God's law has existed at least as long as sin has existed. The Bible says, "Where no law is, there is no transgression [or sin]." Romans 4:15.
So God's Ten Commandment law existed from the beginning. Men broke that law. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

The dietary laws have not been abolished either, because there's no scripture in the NT to support that. The sheet that lowered in Peter's vision was explained not to have to do with the food, but with the man made law not to be in close association with gentiles as verse 28 i think it was explains.

Matter of fact some of it is even reiterated when it is said that one is to abstain from blood and anything strangled This is a mirror of OT dietary laws.

The feasts and festivals are easy to discern, when you see that God gave those commandments to observe as a perpetual rule. Look up passover, feast of tabernacles or booths among a few others.

Anything specific you'd like to address aside from that?

Tanja

drew
Apr 4th 2008, 10:30 PM
The dietary laws have not been abolished either, because there's no scripture in the NT to support that.
Hello Tanja:

As per my earlier post, I admit I have not your earlier posts. But it seems clear to me that you believe that certain "dietary / ceremonial" laws are still to be obeyed. And I am not, in this post, going to respond to your scriptures in support of that position. Instead I am going to give a high level overview of why I think the Torah - and specifically all aspects of it that distinguished the Jew from the Gentile - has been retired and no longer applies. Perhaps I will change my mind about this once I revisit your arguments.

Here goes:

1. A central reason why God gave Torah was to cause the sin of the world to be accumulated on Israel and brought to it full manifestation in her. Thus "concentrated in one place", it was then transferred to Jesus and dealt with. I could cite texts in Romans 5 and 7 in support of this.

2. Torah therefore played a very specific role in the redemption of mankind. It was used to cause Israel to be the place where sin is "lured into a vulnerable position" and then dealt with. This purpose has been accomplished. Therefore, arguably, the Torah, and especially the ethnic specificities of it - dietary and ceremonial Laws, has been retired.

3. Paul goes to such great lengths to argue that the "distinction" between Jew and Gentile has been dissolved, that it seems highly implausible that laws that served to mark out that very distinction, would still be in force after sin has been dealt with on the Cross. Of course, you can argue that the ceremonial aspect of Torah now applies to all - Jew and Gentile - and this undermine this aspect of my argument. Fair enough.

If you have read my earlier posts, you will know that I hold a position wherein the Law has not been nullified. And I suspect you and I agree that many (most?) Christians effectively believe that it has, although they will deny this, and are mistaken in so believing. If you read my earlier post, you will hopefully get a sense of what I understand is constitutive of the "Torah" that we are still to obey.

A very interesting topic

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 4th 2008, 10:35 PM
Let me look at your agruements scripturally, and i will get back with you. I personally never heard it that way as you lay out before.

Especially this part:

1. A central reason why God gave Torah was to cause the sin of the world to be accumulated on Israel and brought to it full manifestation in her. Thus "concentrated in one place", it was then transferred to Jesus and dealt with. I could cite texts in Romans 5 and 7 in support of this.Tell me why would God do that? Why should one nation be a scapegoat? That really strikes me unfair.

I'll look up the scripture refs you cited, and be back.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Apr 4th 2008, 10:44 PM
PP,
i am not in disagreement with scripture, that's your opinion, and nothing more. I'm not afraid of being judged on that. I am not dismissing the NT at all. I see a harmonious continuance from the old into the New.

The disciples in Yeshuas time followed Yeshua, but they also observed the seventh day as did Yeshua

Shalom,
Tanja
You're talking about Jews Tanja not Gentiles. Sure they kept the Sabbath. We know that Paul was in the various synagogues at least until the Jews ran him out for his teaching.

Galatians 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.


Are you under faith or the Law?

You said earlier that the righteous follow the law that is why they are not judged by the Law... but read what Paul actually says Tanja.

Galatians 3:21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.

Righteousness is not based on the Law Tanja. It points us to Christ... that it does. But that is all it did and does.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 4th 2008, 10:47 PM
I don't see ANYTHING in Romans Chapter 5 or 7 that would speak of sin being accumulated in Israel to have it be transfered onto Yeshua. Even if that should have been part of the plan, i don't see it in those scriptures at all.

The rest of your arguments would collapse on the first premesis, because i do not find is substantiated.

BTW, i was trying to send you a PM but you apparently have that feature locked.

Please post the particular scriptures you believe substantiate your understanding of the three points you made, and then we can discuss this.

Shalom,
Tanja

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 4th 2008, 11:02 PM
:lol:

PP,
i feel you've come and fitted me with a thumb press or some similar device to squeeze some sort of confession out of me.

You're free to disagree, but Believing Gentiles observed the Sabbath as much as did the Jews. I find that in scripture, though many read the same verses and don't see it that way.

I'm not under anything, i walk the Law by Faith and should i stumble i Believe that The Word is my Salvation. Understand that my belief came before i had faith.

Abraham was given a direct Command, to go and sacrifice his son on the altar.

This was an indicidual Command God gave Abraham, and he went and followed through until he was stopped by God Himself.

Here's what scripture the NT of all things says about the incident:

Jas 2:21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works.
Jas 2:23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God.

I'm not saying that the Law makes me righteous, it's the upholding thereof with a full Belief and trust in Yeshua which completes that.

As for me not being under a tutor, you cannot judge that individually. I personally believe i still need and matter of fact still desire tutoring because i would love to get as near perfect as one possible could.
I'm my own worst critic, and when i look at myself i see a sinner, and i hate that part in me. However, that's when i look up to God, and trust that He knows how to build me into a perfect temple. Or into a perfect stone to build His mansion with many rooms. I cannot for the life of me see anyone not in need of tutoring anymore. Even at age 80 or 90 you're still a sinner, there's just no way around it.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Apr 4th 2008, 11:06 PM
Owen,

to be honest, we have had this debate before.

There are some laws sacrificial for example that cannot be practiced today, because the law has rules about how and where and when this can be done. The Temple no longer exists, so therefore it would be a sin to sacrifice.

The Sabbath Law as PP pointed out existed in the ten commandments even long before God ever gave this to Moses.

Please note that God's law has existed at least as long as sin has existed. The Bible says, "Where no law is, there is no transgression [or sin]." Romans 4:15.
So God's Ten Commandment law existed from the beginning. Men broke that law. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

The dietary laws have not been abolished either, because there's no scripture in the NT to support that. The sheet that lowered in Peter's vision was explained not to have to do with the food, but with the man made law not to be in close association with gentiles as verse 28 i think it was explains.

Matter of fact some of it is even reiterated when it is said that one is to abstain from blood and anything strangled This is a mirror of OT dietary laws.

The feasts and festivals are easy to discern, when you see that God gave those commandments to observe as a perpetual rule. Look up passover, feast of tabernacles or booths among a few others.

Anything specific you'd like to address aside from that?

Tanja

How do you get around Acts 15 Tanja?

Acts 15:7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8 "And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
12 ¶And all the multitude kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.
13 And after they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me.
14 "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name.
15 "And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 `AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT,
17 IN ORDER THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,´
18 SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM OF OLD.
19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."


This is the letter that was sent out to the Gentile Church.


Acts 15:22 ¶Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas -- Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren,
23 and they sent this letter by them, " The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.
24 "Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,
25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 "Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth.
28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."

VerticalReality
Apr 4th 2008, 11:10 PM
Boy do i ever disagree that in the beginning there was no Law.

Before the fall of man there were at least two commandments God gave that we can easily discern:

Observe the Sabbath
Do not eat from the tree

It's sad you think you have no need for the Law, you know i'm sure you too still have some sin in you that needs correction and training. Only the Law can point that out to you, and only then can you make corrections.

Now i'm not the one to judge if you're worthy of the blood of Christ, but if you are then you have nothing to fear. But the point remains that God wants us to search our hearts all the time, and faults can only be uncovered through Him.

Shalom,
Tanja

Galatians 3:19-25
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Tell me, how can something be "added" if it's already there? There certainly was NOT a law in the beginning. There was no need for a law because there was no sin.

Owen
Apr 4th 2008, 11:16 PM
Owen,

to be honest, we have had this debate before.

There are some laws sacrificial for example that cannot be practiced today, because the law has rules about how and where and when this can be done. The Temple no longer exists, so therefore it would be a sin to sacrifice.

The Sabbath Law as PP pointed out existed in the ten commandments even long before God ever gave this to Moses.

Please note that God's law has existed at least as long as sin has existed. The Bible says, "Where no law is, there is no transgression [or sin]." Romans 4:15.
So God's Ten Commandment law existed from the beginning. Men broke that law. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

The dietary laws have not been abolished either, because there's no scripture in the NT to support that. The sheet that lowered in Peter's vision was explained not to have to do with the food, but with the man made law not to be in close association with gentiles as verse 28 i think it was explains.

Matter of fact some of it is even reiterated when it is said that one is to abstain from blood and anything strangled This is a mirror of OT dietary laws.

The feasts and festivals are easy to discern, when you see that God gave those commandments to observe as a perpetual rule. Look up passover, feast of tabernacles or booths among a few others.

Anything specific you'd like to address aside from that?

Tanja

Well, I hope I can get a more detail answer from you, but lets go question by question. I am not going to debate what you say at this point, but I am trying to fully understand where you come from and trying to see where you find your basis for what you believe.

What things in the laws contained with the Pentateuch are to be followed and which are not? And what is the actual Scriptural basis for that? While I do appreciate some of your reasoning, and it is not necessarily without merit (Although I would draw different conclusions than you do from some of your reasoning), I am trying to see what your Biblical base is. Or do you propose that the Old Testament Laws are to be followed unless explicitly said otherwise?

I am just trying to see how you have your beliefs constructed, otherwise any discussion will be moot. Because we can debate the finer points ad nauseum, but it won't go anywhere if I make certain assumptions that you do not, and vice versa.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 4th 2008, 11:29 PM
I don't get "around" it as you say.

This whole trouble in Acts starts because of a few people (presumably the same sect of pharisees) which claimed "you must be circumcised to enter into the covenant promises". IOW they were going by the outward appearance of the flesh, not by what is in your heart.

Act 15:1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

Hence verse 10:

10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

This is the same veiled wall Yeshua encountered addressing them the same way:

Mat 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,
Mat 23:3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you--but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.
Mat 23:4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.


You're looking at Gentiles coming to the Faith and just learning the things Jewish believers already knew. Do you expect that those Gentiles could be expected to follow the whole Torah immediately?

No, they needed to be started out with basic and easy instructions.

Also in the next group of verses we see the same over again:


24 "Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,


This was a grave issue, the Apostles were looking at a situation of some teaching false doctrine saying all these folks had to do was to be circumcised and live out the Torah in a legalistic fashion and all would be well, totally disregarding the heart matter which is more important than anything else.

So therefore and for the safety of the new believers He left them with instructions that started out slow, also to squelch any expectations any Believing Jews would have on the Gentiles.

Furthermore, they read Moses on every Shabbat, indicating they were studying Torah and learning from there slowly but surely:

19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

It follows that Gentiles who were not associated with Jews would have no idea what God would expect of them until they learned Torah.

Furthermore, it is interesting to note that they were asked to abstain from things strangled meat and from blood which is an OT dietary Law.


Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 4th 2008, 11:33 PM
VR,

As pointed out before in the Garden Eden Adam and Eve only had the Sabbath which God ordained, and the Rule: "do not eat from the tree".

There was any way you look at it, at LEAST one Law in effect at that time Before the Fall.

So everything else was added because of the transgression and further decline of man.

I believe the other Laws may have been in place too, but i can say with certainty that there was at least one command in effect before the fall... you can take it from there.

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 4th 2008, 11:36 PM
Owen,

sounds fair.
How do you want to go about this, you want to run this through all of the 613 Laws there are?
You want me to make a list and then you can go and ask the specifics one by one?

Shalom,
Tanja

VerticalReality
Apr 4th 2008, 11:40 PM
VR,

As pointed out before in the Garden Eden Adam and Eve only had the Sabbath which God ordained, and the Rule: "do not eat from the tree".

There was any way you look at it, at LEAST one Law in effect at that time Before the Fall.

So everything else was added because of the transgression and further decline of man.

I believe the other Laws may have been in place too, but i can say with certainty that there was at least one command in effect before the fall... you can take it from there.

Shalom,
Tanja

But that's not what the Scriptures say. That is simply your own assumption on the issue. The Word of God declares in that infallible sort of way that the law was added because of transgression. Adam and Eve did not have transgression until they ate of the fruit. There was no need of a law prior to that and there indeed was no law. That's what the Word of God declares, and that is why it can also declare that in Christ we are no longer under any law. It is completely gone for all believers.

Galatians 5:16-18
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

If you are walking in the Spirit there is no need for law because there is no sin.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 5th 2008, 12:03 AM
Owen,

I'll try to give you a brief and basic answer on what the foundation of my Belief entails:

When reading scripture, OT and NT alike, i believe that the Law at MT Sinai was given to Jew and gentile alike, and that any Gentile who turned to God was expected to learn and follow the Torah as any Jew.

I take this from:

Exo 12:49 There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you."

Num 15:16 One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you."

Num 15:29 You shall have one law for him who does anything unintentionally, for him who is native among the people of Israel and for the stranger who sojourns among them.

I find this also in the NT though some disagree:

Gal 3:28 There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.

Following this i find that the Feats which God ordained as perpetual are not just for Jews, because we are one in Christ. I've been grafted into the tree, and the root thereof practises the torah, so how could i be different?

Then there's the fact that in my reading of the NT scriptures i see no evidence of certain things being done away.

I addressed some of it here previously.

There are however some Laws that had to be shelved, because there's currently no proper application for them.

Take Stoning for example. A person to be stoned had to be brought before the concil or Sanhedrin. You couldn't just stone a person as you desired, or you would have been guilty of murder.
The council or Sanhedrin then had the task of hearing at least 2- 3 witnesses that were credible, IOW without sin, because if they were guilty of just one sin, they were not credible. IOW that meant the 2-3 witnesses in turn were investigated thoroughly because no sanhedrin or council would have wanted to be guilty of murder if they convicted an innocent person to be stoned.

I take that info from the Talmud and other sources which speak to the historical ways things were done in those times. The part about that no one could be comdemned unless by account of 2 or three or perhaps more witnesses is scriptural.

When i say some laws had to be shelved because they are currently not applicable, you could compare that to the idea of presupposing following scenario:

Let's say there's a law that no one could have hair longer than 3 inches. If we had a nuclear war for example that radiated everyone so that no one would have hair anymore then that law would not vanish, but it would simply no longer be applicable.
Until someone started growing hair again.

You ask about Spiritual reasoning? Tell me what exactly you are trying to find out.

Feel free to shell out more questions.

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 5th 2008, 12:07 AM
VR,

we have been round and round on these issues.
You just will not understand my view and i'm not in the mood to argue.

I explained previously that i agree that if i walk by the Spirit i'm not under the Law, no bones about it. But walking by the Spirit doesn't give me the freedom to transgress the law. IOW if what you do in the Spirit does not line up with the Word then you're transgressing the Law.

You'll probably say that's absurd, but too many go by their feelings on things and be led by this wind or that, and say they do it in His name. Well, how can you be sure unless you know what the Word says and teaches about that.

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 5th 2008, 12:11 AM
BTW drew,

perhaps you feel like i let you off the hook with my answers. Basically what i was saying is that those two chapters deal with sin on an individual level though it came out on a national /global scale, But i do not see that it heaps all those sins on just the nation of Israel.

If that was your reasoning then you would also have to assume that since all sin had been heaped on israel that now only Israel received atonement.

From what i see in scripture each person is responsib;e for their own deeds. Good or bad.

Shalom,
Tanja

Owen
Apr 5th 2008, 12:11 AM
Owen,

sounds fair.
How do you want to go about this, you want to run this through all of the 613 Laws there are?
You want me to make a list and then you can go and ask the specifics one by one?

Shalom,
Tanja

If you wish to go into that detail, but just a general view will do fine. But what I am interested in especially is your rationale for which laws are in effect and which are not.

VerticalReality
Apr 5th 2008, 12:11 AM
I explained previously that i agree that if i walk by the Spirit i'm not under the law, no bones about it. But walking by the Spirit doesn't give me the freedom to transgress the law.

Shalom,
Tanja

The Scriptures declare, however, that if you are indeed in the Spirit there is no law to transgress. Only those who live by the flesh have a law that condemns them. Without sin there is no law, so unless you are going about sinning all the time and not walking in the Spirit there is no law for you to transgress. However, and here is such beauty, even if we do so happen to make a mistake and sin, we have the blood of Jesus that keeps us free from the law and free from condemnation. So still, even if we do make a mistake, there is still no law to condemn us.

That's the power of our Lord Jesus Christ!:pp

Owen
Apr 5th 2008, 12:17 AM
Owen,

I'll try to give you a brief and basic answer on what the foundation of my Belief entails:

When reading scripture, OT and NT alike, i believe that the Law at MT Sinai was given to Jew and gentile alike, and that any Gentile who turned to God was expected to learn and follow the Torah as any Jew.

I take this from:

Exo 12:49 There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you."

Num 15:16 One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you."

Num 15:29 You shall have one law for him who does anything unintentionally, for him who is native among the people of Israel and for the stranger who sojourns among them.

I find this also in the NT though some disagree:

Gal 3:28 There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.

Just one point here, although I am going to try to debate at this. Quoting Galatians 3:28 may not necessarily affirm your view. If there is some change, that the Law was in effect at one time but now no longer, Galatians 3:28 would in fact be saying the opposite. My main point is, Galatians 3:28 does not necessarily affirm your view.

I have other things to say but I am going to wait until I make sure I see where you are coming from.


Following this i find that the Feats which God ordained as perpetual are not just for Jews, because we are one in Christ. I've been grafted into the tree, and the root thereof practises the torah, so how could i be different?

Then there's the fact that in my reading of the NT scriptures i see no evidence of certain things being done away.

So you start off with the assumption that the regulations in the Law are in effect till shown otherwise?


I addressed some of it here previously.

There are however some Laws that had to be shelved, because there's currently no proper application for them.

Take Stoning for example. A person to be stoned had to be brought before the concil or Sanhedrin. You couldn't just stone a person as you desired, or you would have been guilty of murder.
The council or Sanhedrin then had the task of hearing at least 2- 3 witnesses that were credible, IOW without sin, because if they were guilty of just one sin, they were not credible. IOW that meant the 2-3 witnesses in turn were investigated thoroughly because no sanhedrin or council would have wanted to be guilty of murder if they convicted an innocent person to be stoned.

I take that info from the Talmud and other sources which speak to the historical ways things were done in those times. The part about that no one could be comdemned unless by account of 2 or three or perhaps more witnesses is scriptural.

When i say some laws had to be shelved because they are currently not applicable, you could compare that to the idea of presupposing following scenario:

Let's say there's a law that no one could have hair longer than 3 inches. If we had a nuclear war for example that radiated everyone so that no one would have hair anymore then that law would not vanish, but it would simply no longer be applicable.
Until someone started growing hair again.

You ask about Spiritual reasoning? Tell me what exactly you are trying to find out.

Feel free to shell out more questions.

This reflects my opinion a bit, but let me ask if you would accept or reject it as a possible means of discernment. Is it possible that some of the regulations with the Law of Moses were intended for that time for certain reasons, kind of like a child is forbidden from driving a car till they have their own license?

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 5th 2008, 12:23 AM
I can totally agree with your last post. :hug:

I just don't know how you seem to think that when we walk in the Spirit and do not transgress any Law, that the law is now gone. it's still there, you're actually upholding it:

Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Shalom,
Tanja

VerticalReality
Apr 5th 2008, 12:27 AM
I can totally agree with your last post. :hug:

I just don't know how you seem to think that when we walk in the Spirit and do not transgress any Law, that the law is now gone. it's still there, you're actually upholding it:

Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Shalom,
Tanja

That still does not discount the fact that in righteousness there is no law. There's no need for a law because there's nothing contrary to God. The law was given for the sinner. If you still see yourself as a sinner, well . . . you aren't fully seeing the victory in our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ has broken that power that the enemy had over us. Therefore, there is no need any longer for law for those who believe.

The Scriptures clearly say that the law was added because of transgression. So where there is no transgression there is no need for law. Jesus has taken the need for law out of the way for those who walk by faith.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 5th 2008, 01:05 AM
Owen,
Galations has been very hard to understand in light of scriptures such as can be found in James or Romans or even some in Hebrews.

My understanding of Galatians is fundamentally different from yours. This is going to be the biggest issue as Galatians is the main chapter used to refute the views i have and any messianic will sing a song about that :lol:

Galatians is one chapter where the historical aspect needs to be taken into consideration to the highest extend possible, or you will ultimately come to the conclusion you have come to.

To be honest, when i first studied the scriptures and found everything pointing to the view i hold today, galatians gave me quite some severe headaches until i learned to read it the right way with the historical background in mind.

Now regharding Gal 3:28
I don't see why it can't confirm my view as the next verse says:

Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, [24] heirs according to the promise.

As you know Abraham was a man of faith living by the Law.

I suppose you would want me to substantiate my view a bit more regarding these things.

In the end time scriptures you will find that the victory of God is manifest by His people Both Israel and the Nations worshipping Him together. Consider the prophecy of Isaiah quoted by Yeshua as he cleared the temple of unrighteous practices: For my house shall be a house of Prayer for ALL peoples. Can you imagine God having the Israelites worship according to the Torah and the gentiles doing nothing?
(Isaiah 56:7, Mat 23:13) The context of Isaiah is one of the ingathering of the nations to worship the Lord, and this worship id characterized by the careful guarding of the Sabbath, the very first appointed times of the Lord. Leviticus 23:1-3
Moreover the reign of the Messiah is by the global worship of the one true God, marked by all of the nations coming to celebrate the festival of Sukkoth (feats of tabernacles)
Zechariah 14:16-19
The prophets envision an end time reign of Messiah characterized by the Observance of the Sabbath and the feats of the tabernacles as the last appointed time in the yearly cycle.

Then as far as the law goes there's also this scripture:

Zec 8:23 Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men from nations of every language shall take hold of a Jew, grasping his garment and saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."

You know what is so special about the robe of a Jew? And why specifically a Jew?
What are the religious Jews known for?

They are known to observe Torah, and a command in it tells you to:

Num 15:38 "Speak to the people of Israel, and tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a cord of blue on the tassel of each corner.
Num 15:39 And it shall be a tassel for you to look at and remember all the commandments of the LORD, to do them, not to follow after your own heart and your own eyes, which you are inclined to whore after.
Num 15:40 So you shall remember and do all my commandments, and be holy to your God.

This very same thing ten men of every nation are going to grasp on according to the prophexy in Zecheriah.

This is my understanding (which many likeminded people share) that this embodies a return to Torah among the people of the many nations.

I can't give you a single scripture that will blatantly put it before you, but this is what i found the more i read.

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 5th 2008, 01:07 AM
That still does not discount the fact that in righteousness there is no law. There's no need for a law because there's nothing contrary to God. The law was given for the sinner. If you still see yourself as a sinner, well . . . you aren't fully seeing the victory in our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ has broken that power that the enemy had over us. Therefore, there is no need any longer for law for those who believe.

Well let me ask you, are you 100% sin free? Sure the blood of Messiah will cover you, if God deems you worthy, but the question is, do you still commit sins from time to time in your life?

Shalom,
Tanja

VerticalReality
Apr 5th 2008, 01:18 AM
Well let me ask you, are you 100% sin free?

Yes.

Romans 6:5-7
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Romans 6:18
And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

The Word declares me to be absolutely 100% free from sin.


Sure the blood of Messiah will cover you, if God deems you worthy, but the question is, do you still commit sins from time to time in your life?

The blood of Jesus cleanses me totally. If I happen to transgress because I slip into the flesh that doesn't then bring the law upon me. That's the difference between Adam and now. You see, when Adam sinned he did not have atonement. Therefore, his sin remained and the law came. However, if I sin I still have the blood of Jesus to atone for that sin and with this comes the fact that the law is still no more in effect. Where there is law judgment must come also. If you are under law you are also under judgment. However, Jesus Christ took that out of the way on the cross so that we would no longer be condemned with the rest of the world.

ProjectPeter
Apr 5th 2008, 01:22 AM
:lol:

PP,
i feel you've come and fitted me with a thumb press or some similar device to squeeze some sort of confession out of me.

You're free to disagree, but Believing Gentiles observed the Sabbath as much as did the Jews. I find that in scripture, though many read the same verses and don't see it that way.

I'm not under anything, i walk the Law by Faith and should i stumble i Believe that The Word is my Salvation. Understand that my belief came before i had faith.

Abraham was given a direct Command, to go and sacrifice his son on the altar.

This was an indicidual Command God gave Abraham, and he went and followed through until he was stopped by God Himself.

Here's what scripture the NT of all things says about the incident:

Jas 2:21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works.
Jas 2:23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God.

I'm not saying that the Law makes me righteous, it's the upholding thereof with a full Belief and trust in Yeshua which completes that.

As for me not being under a tutor, you cannot judge that individually. I personally believe i still need and matter of fact still desire tutoring because i would love to get as near perfect as one possible could.
I'm my own worst critic, and when i look at myself i see a sinner, and i hate that part in me. However, that's when i look up to God, and trust that He knows how to build me into a perfect temple. Or into a perfect stone to build His mansion with many rooms. I cannot for the life of me see anyone not in need of tutoring anymore. Even at age 80 or 90 you're still a sinner, there's just no way around it.

Shalom,
TanjaTanja,

If you need a tutor Tanja then that means you are under the Law of Moses and missing out on something with that whole faith part. Read that passage and study it out. All you need is Christ... period. And your example of Abraham... that was an act of obedience alone. Had nothing to do with the Law nor was James portraying it as obedience to the Law of Moses. I understand there wasn't a law given nor would you ever see such a law given. But it really isn't a good example because you well know that I am a very strong advocate of obedience being a must. But obedience to the Law of Moses? No. Obedience to the Law of Christ.

Owen
Apr 5th 2008, 01:31 AM
Owen,
Galations has been very hard to understand in light of scriptures such as can be found in James or Romans or even some in Hebrews.

My understanding of Galatians is fundamentally different from yours. This is going to be the biggest issue as Galatians is the main chapter used to refute the views i have and any messianic will sing a song about that :lol:

Galatians is one chapter where the historical aspect needs to be taken into consideration to the highest extend possible, or you will ultimately come to the conclusion you have come to.

I am going to stay out of debating at this point, but let me say this. I have heavily considered the historical aspect, so please be careful in making such a claim. You have presumed your superiority in your view because you think you have taken part in some type of understanding other people have not considering, which is in fact false.

I have heavily considering the historical. Its just I for different reasons (right or wrong) have drawn different conclusions than you have.

So please, for future reference, please refrain from drawing conclusions as to what I have taken into consideration and why I draw the conclusions I have, when I haven't spoken much to this point.

I was merely trying to make a point that Galatians 3:28 in different ways, so that by itself you can not claim it substantiates your view. Perhaps it may in consideration of context, but therein lies the bulk of our disagreement also.


To be honest, when i first studied the scriptures and found everything pointing to the view i hold today, galatians gave me quite some severe headaches until i learned to read it the right way with the historical background in mind.

Now regharding Gal 3:28
I don't see why it can't confirm my view as the next verse says:

Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, [24] heirs according to the promise.

As you know Abraham was a man of faith living by the Law.

How could he follows the works of the Law of Moses when it had not been given? Secondly, must we take Abraham's offspring to be referring to obeying the Law of Moses, which came after Abraham, or follow the example of his in faith (as Romans talks about)?


I suppose you would want me to substantiate my view a bit more regarding these things.

In the end time scriptures you will find that the victory of God is manifest by His people Both Israel and the Nations worshipping Him together. Consider the prophecy of Isaiah quoted by Yeshua as he cleared the temple of unrighteous practices: For my house shall be a house of Prayer for ALL peoples. Can you imagine God having the Israelites worship according to the Torah and the gentiles doing nothing?
(Isaiah 56:7, Mat 23:13) The context of Isaiah is one of the ingathering of the nations to worship the Lord, and this worship id characterized by the careful guarding of the Sabbath, the very first appointed times of the Lord. Leviticus 23:1-3
Moreover the reign of the Messiah is by the global worship of the one true God, marked by all of the nations coming to celebrate the festival of Sukkoth (feats of tabernacles)
Zechariah 14:16-19
The prophets envision an end time reign of Messiah characterized by the Observance of the Sabbath and the feats of the tabernacles as the last appointed time in the yearly cycle.

Then as far as the law goes there's also this scripture:

Zec 8:23 Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men from nations of every language shall take hold of a Jew, grasping his garment and saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."

You know what is so special about the robe of a Jew? And why specifically a Jew?
What are the religious Jews known for?

They are known to observe Torah, and a command in it tells you to:

Num 15:38 "Speak to the people of Israel, and tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a cord of blue on the tassel of each corner.
Num 15:39 And it shall be a tassel for you to look at and remember all the commandments of the LORD, to do them, not to follow after your own heart and your own eyes, which you are inclined to whore after.
Num 15:40 So you shall remember and do all my commandments, and be holy to your God.

This very same thing ten men of every nation are going to grasp on according to the prophexy in Zecheriah.

This is my understanding (which many likeminded people share) that this embodies a return to Torah among the people of the many nations.

Just one observation. The bulk of your support does come from Old Testament, and naturally so it would affirm the Law. But the question comes into mind if something has changed from the arrival of Christ. This entails a New Testament understanding, because to claim the old hasn't been changed on the basis of the old is a bit of circular reasoning.

Also, do you start with the assumption that the Old Testament laws are in effect till given explicit reason to say the are not?

And could some of the laws possibly be given for Israel for a specific time and need, kind of like a child is forbidden to drive until they acquire a license?

ProjectPeter
Apr 5th 2008, 01:42 AM
I don't get "around" it as you say.

This whole trouble in Acts starts because of a few people (presumably the same sect of pharisees) which claimed "you must be circumcised to enter into the covenant promises". IOW they were going by the outward appearance of the flesh, not by what is in your heart.

Act 15:1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

Hence verse 10:

10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

This is the same veiled wall Yeshua encountered addressing them the same way:

Mat 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,
Mat 23:3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you--but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.
Mat 23:4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.


You're looking at Gentiles coming to the Faith and just learning the things Jewish believers already knew. Do you expect that those Gentiles could be expected to follow the whole Torah immediately?

No, they needed to be started out with basic and easy instructions.

Also in the next group of verses we see the same over again:


24 "Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,


This was a grave issue, the Apostles were looking at a situation of some teaching false doctrine saying all these folks had to do was to be circumcised and live out the Torah in a legalistic fashion and all would be well, totally disregarding the heart matter which is more important than anything else.

So therefore and for the safety of the new believers He left them with instructions that started out slow, also to squelch any expectations any Believing Jews would have on the Gentiles.

Furthermore, they read Moses on every Shabbat, indicating they were studying Torah and learning from there slowly but surely:

19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

It follows that Gentiles who were not associated with Jews would have no idea what God would expect of them until they learned Torah.

Furthermore, it is interesting to note that they were asked to abstain from things strangled meat and from blood which is an OT dietary Law.


Shalom,
TanjaThat was a dietary law even before the Law of Moses actually.

As to the "learning a little bit at a time"... please show me any such implication in that passage or any other passage in Scripture. It just isn't there Tanja. And many years later... when Paul goes to Jerusalem right before prison in Rome... look what James says Tanja.

Acts 21:17 ¶And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.
18 And now the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present.
19 And after he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;
21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.
22 "What, then, is to be done ? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 "Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses in order that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.
25 "But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication."


Notice that he doesn't allude to this "little bit at a time" thing here. Little bit of time had passed and this was still the standard for the Christian Gentile. The work that we aren't saved by is the work of the Law. If not keeping the Law is disobedience to God then we aren't going to be saved because the disobedient ain't going to spend eternity with God. And even you aren't obedient to the Law of Moses nor can you be. God don't wink at excuses and as James said... guilty in one part you are guilty in whole.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 5th 2008, 01:45 AM
Vertical Reality,
well i see it differently than you do, as in that in this life i cannot be sin free, though i know that my sin is covered by Yeshua.
I see it this way: when i slip, the Law reminds me of my mistake, and i repent and turn anew and i'm forgiven by and through the blood of Yeshua.

And this PP, is where i don't care what you assume. You simply don't understand and therefore you just assume me to be under the mosiac law and missing out. I'm not missing out on anything. I'm fine and i am safe.
I can't help it that you and i view the scriptures differently.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Apr 5th 2008, 01:50 AM
Vertical Reality,
well i see it differently than you do, as in that in this life i cannot be sin free, though i know that my sin is covered by Yeshua.
I see it this way: when i slip, the Law reminds me of my mistake, and i repent and turn anew and i'm forgiven by and through the blood of Yeshua.

And this PP, is where i don't care what you assume. You simply don't understand and therefore you just assume me to be under the mosiac law and missing out. I'm not missing out on anything. I'm fine and i am safe.
I can't help it that you and i view the scriptures differently.

Shalom,
Tanja
Tanja... please show me where it says "little bit at a time" anywhere in Scripture? If it is Scripture then surely it is in there somewhere right? I know that this is the standard line received on this particular passage from folks that still follow the Law. But if it is Scripture then surely it is there... so let's find it?

VerticalReality
Apr 5th 2008, 02:03 AM
Vertical Reality,
well i see it differently than you do, as in that in this life i cannot be sin free, though i know that my sin is covered by Yeshua.

So what do you make of those passages of Scripture out of Romans 6 that declares believers to be free from sin?


I see it this way: when i slip, the Law reminds me of my mistake, and i repent and turn anew and i'm forgiven by and through the blood of Yeshua.

Have you considered that because you are trying to keep the law you continue in sin? Maybe this is why you feel like you cannot be free from sin?

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 5th 2008, 02:04 AM
I am going to stay out of debating at this point, but let me say this. I have heavily considered the historical aspect, so please be careful in making such a claim. You have presumed your superiority in your view because you think you have taken part in some type of understanding other people have not considering, which is in fact false.

I'm sorry if it came across that way, i wrote to you that was as i do not know what sort of reasearch you have done. I am not saying in any way that i'm suprerior to you.
If this offended you i appologize from my heart.

As to Abraham not having the Law, when Cain slew Abel it was clear that God did not agree with murder. There are many things that were handed down through the generations and all those who feared God knew what He liked or disliked.


For Instance also the 4th commandment about the Sabbath day says "remember" the sabbath day.... which cleanrly indicates that it was something forgotten or put aside by rebellious people, and now being brought back to rememberance. I do not believe that God would leave those He cared about and that were Godly seeking Him would have been left ignorant of what he wanted from them.


Yes the bulk of my support comes from the OT, but as said before there is to me at least proof in the NT that the law is still in effect not the least of instances which is where Yeshua says:
Mat 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,
Mat 23:3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you--but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

Not to mention where He Himself wwarns that he did not come to abolish/destroy the Law, but to fulfil, in which it becoems clear that to fulfil it obviously could not mean an end or abolishing of the Law.


So unless God Himself sai the Law or a Law was no longer in effect i would presume it to be valid still.

If the Law was given to Israel til they matured to a new level then where does this leave us Gentiles in learning how to walk in the ways of God?

So no, i don't think it was a question of maturity. If anything i see every Law that has been added or given as a further extension to mankind to clarify the ways of the Lord.
This IMO intensifies in the NT when Yeshua says "you have heard it said, but i say unto you".......

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 5th 2008, 02:09 AM
Tanja... please show me where it says "little bit at a time" anywhere in Scripture? If it is Scripture then surely it is in there somewhere right? I know that this is the standard line received on this particular passage from folks that still follow the Law. But if it is Scripture then surely it is there... so let's find it?

PP, i feel it is nothing but argueing now, and i'm not going to entangle myself any further in this with you, because you and i differ too much in what we see scripture being about, and saying.

You and i can read the same sentence, and yet we will disagree what it means.
Thereofre i believe it may be a waste of time to debate this further.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Apr 5th 2008, 02:13 AM
PP, i feel it is nothing but argueing now, and i'm not going to entangle myself any further in this with you, because you and i differ too much in what we see scripture being about, and saying.

You and i can read the same sentence, and yet we will disagree what it means.
Thereofre i believe it may be a waste of time to debate this further.

Shalom,
Tanja
Tanja,

It wasn't a debate nor arguing. It was a question. Show me the Scripture that you and I are going to disagree with... just show me that passage that implies or leads you to believe it implies that they will "learn a little bit at a time so only give them a few things for now."

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 5th 2008, 02:18 AM
Veritcal Reality the key verse is this:

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions.

It proves that sin is something to be overcome, and this requires obedience to the Ways of God.
You can't tell me that even with the Spirit in you you have never slipped and done what the flesh wanted to do.

I have never stated that one we isn't free from sin if one walks in the Spirit.

No the Law has nothing to do sin committed it, rather it has something to do with the flesh winning over the Spirit. This happens to the best of us.

I have to say i feel like people are trying to twist my arm here into believing things your way.
It's almost as if you have the need to preach the gospel to me and as if i were in need of salvation.

Lord knows i already have that.

Shalom,
Tanja

Owen
Apr 5th 2008, 02:19 AM
I'm sorry if it came across that way, i wrote to you that was as i do not know what sort of reasearch you have done. I am not saying in any way that i'm suprerior to you.
If this offended you i appologize from my heart.

Its ok. I am not offended. But you seem to make an assumption that I came to my conclusion because I didn't consider the historical aspect.


As to Abraham not having the Law, when Cain slew Abel it was clear that God did not agree with murder. There are many things that were handed down through the generations and all those who feared God knew what He liked or disliked.

Roman Law also had commanded to not to murder. US law commands not to murder. Does that mean when Cain broke that law he was breaking Roman and US Law? Not really. To call those things the Law of Moses is anachronistic, which is to attribute something in the past before it really existed.

Is the call not to murder to be obeyed because it is from the Law of Moses or is there another reason and that there is overlap between the two?


For Instance also the 4th commandment about the Sabbath day says "remember" the sabbath day.... which cleanrly indicates that it was something forgotten or put aside by rebellious people, and now being brought back to rememberance. I do not believe that God would leave those He cared about and that were Godly seeking Him would have been left ignorant of what he wanted from them.

Does "remember" refer to recall past commands to obey the Sabbath (of which, before Moses there was no explicit command like that spoken of to people)? In other words, is it retrospective? Or is it saying to remember it for the future, do not forget it? In other words, is it referring to looking forward? Both are permissible according to the Hebrew word and grammar.


Yes the bulk of my support comes from the OT, but as said before there is to me at least proof in the NT that the law is still in effect not the least of instances which is where Yeshua says:
Mat 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,
Mat 23:3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you--but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

Not to mention where He Himself wwarns that he did not come to abolish/destroy the Law, but to fulfil, in which it becoems clear that to fulfil it obviously could not mean an end or abolishing of the Law.

Alright, I figured Matthew 5 would come into play. I'll save my understanding of it for later, but I think that passage understood in context affirms my view.


So unless God Himself sai the Law or a Law was no longer in effect i would presume it to be valid still.

If the Law was given to Israel til they matured to a new level then where does this leave us Gentiles in learning how to walk in the ways of God?

So no, i don't think it was a question of maturity. If anything i see every Law that has been added or given as a further extension to mankind to clarify the ways of the Lord.
This IMO intensifies in the NT when Yeshua says "you have heard it said, but i say unto you".......

That is where we are going to disagree. I think the Law of Moses is, in many ways, something God gave to the Israelites for the need of the time. That is why I do not appropriate most of them as everlasting commandments, but rather I believe they had a greater purpose of moving them towards something else. Like keeping a kid from driving before they acquire a license is to protect them. The purpose isn't because driving is bad, but they don't need to drive before they get older.

This gets us to the second question. What do you think Paul means when he says that we are not justified by the works of the Law? I am not asking at this moment why you interpret it a certain way, but just your interpretation itself.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 5th 2008, 02:19 AM
PP,
i already responded to that in post # 82.... i went into explainign what i saw in Acts 15.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Apr 5th 2008, 02:27 AM
PP,
i already responded to that in post # 82.... i went into explainign what i saw in Acts 15.

Shalom,
Tanja
Okay... which one of those verses do you see implying or saying clearly that they were to only give them a few things until they could learn more later about how to properly follow the Law?

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 5th 2008, 03:04 AM
Owen,

The scriptures give us no timeline as far as how long Adama and Eve were in the Garden being in direct presence of the Lord God.

However, i believe they did learn some things as to what was right and what was not, before they broke the Law of God and ate from the tree.

We see Cain making a fruit offering and abel making an offering with his best ram.

This implies that something was already in place though the scriptures are silent on what God may have said, or if they got this knowledge from their parents.

When God confronted Cain he asked:
Gen 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it."

If you do well.... it implies that Cain knew what God expected of the humans at this time.

What all God may have expected is unclear, but certainly some expectations were present.

What i see in the scriptures from here on out is a further and further decline of man whose heart continues to harden to the point it grieves God to the point he wipes out all but 8.

After that a fresh start is made but again man declines in righteousness, and falls further than before from God, and finally Laws are set down which to me implies such a fallen nature that God gives more and more rules to try and bring man into obedience.

Now Man knows the rules, but doesn't actually take them to heart, though some try to observe the statues given. They refuse to circumcise their hearts:

Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn.

God is appealing to them to soften their hearts and asking them to write the law into their hearts, which is the ONLY way that one can abide by it in Faith.

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

I believe it's quite possible that just as Gentiles who without having knowledge of the actual Law of God and who did by nature what the Law required, that likewise before the Law given at Mt Sinai people had a working knowledge of God's law.

Shalom,
Tanja

VerticalReality
Apr 5th 2008, 03:05 AM
Veritcal Reality the key verse is this:

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions.

It proves that sin is something to be overcome, and this requires obedience to the Ways of God.

The reason sin can be overcome is because we have been set free from it. If we were not free from sin we would not be able to overcome it. Additionally, sins strength is in the law. Without the law sin no longer has power over us.


You can't tell me that even with the Spirit in you you have never slipped and done what the flesh wanted to do.

That doesn't mean I'm not free from the bondage of sin, nor does it mean that I'm now under law. If there is law my sin must be judged. If that law is still there I'm condemned. However, that is not the case because Christ has taken it out of the way so that I might live.


I have never stated that one we isn't free from sin if one walks in the Spirit.

We are free from sin even if we happen to not walk in the Spirit. Otherwise, Jesus would have to die again. His sacrifice was good once for all. It's no longer needed for us to give a sacrifice. Jesus Christ is our sacrifice and through His blood we have been set free from the law that convicted us.


No the Law has nothing to do sin committed it, rather it has something to do with the flesh winning over the Spirit. This happens to the best of us.

But the Word declares that sins strength is through the law. Without the law what strength does sin have left? You sin because you walk in the flesh and thereby walk under law. The only time we are under law is when we fulfill the lusts of the flesh. If you walk by faith there is no law.



I have to say i feel like people are trying to twist my arm here into believing things your way.
It's almost as if you have the need to preach the gospel to me and as if i were in need of salvation.


But to hear you speak, you say you are still in bondage to sin, which would mean that you are in need of salvation. I do not believe this to be the case, so then what I must conclude is that you are in doctrinal error and you are buying into a fallacy that one must keep the law in order to walk in righteousness when, in fact, the reason we can walk in righteousness is because there no longer is a law for those who believe. Sin is strengthened by the law. Therefore, if you are trying to keep the law the only thing you are doing is empowering sin.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 5th 2008, 03:13 AM
PP,
my words are not coming out too well, let me just gibve you a link of a pdf file to read.

You can take it or leave it at that. But it explains what i'm trying to say 100 times better:

http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Acts%2015.pdf

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 5th 2008, 03:15 AM
Well and that's it for tonight. see ya all tomorrow.

Shalom,
Tanja

Owen
Apr 5th 2008, 03:34 AM
Owen,

The scriptures give us no timeline as far as how long Adama and Eve were in the Garden being in direct presence of the Lord God.

However, i believe they did learn some things as to what was right and what was not, before they broke the Law of God and ate from the tree.

We see Cain making a fruit offering and abel making an offering with his best ram.

This implies that something was already in place though the scriptures are silent on what God may have said, or if they got this knowledge from their parents.

True. There was something in place. But it is a big leap to take it as affirmation that the Law of Moses is to be followed today by saying what came before validates the everlastingness of the Law of Moses, when another possible understanding is that there is some overlap.


When God confronted Cain he asked:
Gen 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it."

If you do well.... it implies that Cain knew what God expected of the humans at this time.

What all God may have expected is unclear, but certainly some expectations were present.

Yes, but can not God's expectations change. Does a parent expect a four year old child to perform Algebra? Likewise, can not certain expectations of God change depending upon the situation?

This is not to say that everything changes. God does not Himself change and there are certain things He looks for in humans, irrespective of time and situation. But humans change and God works with us based upon who we are.


What i see in the scriptures from here on out is a further and further decline of man whose heart continues to harden to the point it grieves God to the point he wipes out all but 8.

After that a fresh start is made but again man declines in righteousness, and falls further than before from God, and finally Laws are set down which to me implies such a fallen nature that God gives more and more rules to try and bring man into obedience.

Now Man knows the rules, but doesn't actually take them to heart, though some try to observe the statues given. They refuse to circumcise their hearts:

Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn.

God is appealing to them to soften their hearts and asking them to write the law into their hearts, which is the ONLY way that one can abide by it in Faith.

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

I believe it's quite possible that just as Gentiles who without having knowledge of the actual Law of God and who did by nature what the Law required, that likewise before the Law given at Mt Sinai people had a working knowledge of God's law.



Let me ask again and answer when you get the change. What does Paul mean when he says that we are not justified by works of the Law?

brakelite
Apr 5th 2008, 03:51 AM
I have been following this discussion with intense interest, but with a certain amount of apprehension and concern 'cos it seems to me that you are all talking at cross purposes.
At the risk of having a few bricks thrown my way, I would like to make a few points.

The Law of God, written on the stone tablets, was never a bondage, nor is it now. Paul himself describes it as
Ro 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

James describes it as a law of liberty.

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.


When God brought Israel out of Egypt, we read the following:

Ex 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

God then gave them the commandments written on stone. God did not bring Israel out of bondage to bring them immediately into another form of bondage.
Following any form of natural or moral law brings freedom. You use the law to express yourself. Musicians and builders are good examples of how this works. Both study to become proficient in their particular trade and the more knowledgeable and familiar they are with the laws pertaining to that trade then the more skilled they are in expressing themselves. It is the same for the Christian. The more familiar we are with the law, the righteousness of Christ,
the more we are able to express ourselves and bring glory to God. The scriptures call it bearing fruit.
The less we follow the law in any trade, the less we are able to perform. Who wants to live in a house built by an unskilled and unqualified builder? And I can't stand punk rock.:D

The other laws were added because of transgression. They were added to teach Israel discipline. They were the schoolmaster, the tutor. The first law was the law of God. That was on stone. The rest were the laws of Moses. They were on paper. The first was placed in the ark. The second were placed on the side of the ark.

As to what laws were nailed to the cross: it was those laws which Jesus fulfilled. And only those laws. They were the laws which pointed to Him. They were the laws which were shadows of that which was to come. They were the types of the coming antitype. They included the Levitical priesthood, the sacrifices, the feast days and the annual sabbaths.
Those civic laws which applied to Israel as a theocracy also of course no longer apply. But the laws that pertain to our health and diet remain. (Or do you think God has changed His mind and would rather we be unhealthy?)
The feast days, although no longer compulsory, can still be observed as wonderful lessons to what Jesus accomplished at calvary.(As Paul still did).
The ten commandments were never abolished nor done away. They were not nailed to the cross. They are permanent. Which is why God engraved them with His own finger on stone and had them placed under His own throne, the mercy seat. They were a transcript of His own righteous character. And they have existed throughout all eternity, and will continue to do so. Was Satan not a transgressor of that law when he deceived the angels and convinced them to rebel? Did not Jesus say that the devil was a murderer from the beginning? Therefore the law of God existed way before Sinai, even before Eden.

So the question remains, does the law of God apply to Christians? Project Peter, many times have you posted to the effect that obedience is essential.
But obey what? Should we go to the store and buy a loaf of bread at the prompting of the Holy Spirit in order to feed our neighbour in need, yet ignore the commandment that says we ought not lust after his wife? I contend that we must obey God in everything, whether it be the still small voice in our spirit, or the thunderous voice from Mt Sinai.

Now, the sabbath. There are 2 types of sabbath. The annual sabbaths that pointed to Christ and taught Israel various aspects of the atonement. And the weekly sabbath, a memorial of creation. The annual sabbaths, which Paul said were shadows, are no longer obligatory. The weekly sabbaths, which are not shadows, are still binding. They are an integral part of that law of God which still remains engraved upon stone to this day, and which God by His Spirit writes upon pour hearts.

One final point. If I am caught by a highway patrolman doing 180 mph through a secondary road somewhere in Illinois and he pulls me over and discovers I have no licence to drive in the US,:o I am under the law. Well under it, and can look forward to nothing but grief:(.But if he believes and accepts my sincere apology and lets me off, I am no longer under the law, but under grace.:bounce:
According to modern Christian philosophy, that grace would then allow me to take off in a cloud of dust and speed at 220mph all the way home because 'I am no longer under the law, but under grace.'
I think that cop wouild have somewhat of a different opinion of my philosophy, and I fear that God will have a somewhat different opinion also on judgement day when He reiterates what Paul said which was quoted in the opening post.

Ro 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


PS As has been stressed so often by so many within these forums, and I am no exception, obedience of this sort is impossible without God, for Jesus Himself said," without Me ye can do nothing." However, with God all things are possible, including keeping all His commandments. Now that
is grace.

God Bless
Brakelite

VerticalReality
Apr 5th 2008, 04:03 AM
I can't agree with you brakelite . . .



2 Corinthians 3:7-18
But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious. Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.


This Scripture clearly says that this law that was engraved on stone was passing away . . .

Additionally . . .



Romans 7:1-7
Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”


The law being spoken of here is including one of the laws which was engraved on stone which is "You shall not covet". "You shall not covet" was not just a "law on paper". However, we died to that law as well just like the rest of them.

brakelite
Apr 5th 2008, 04:54 AM
I can't agree with you brakelite . . .



This Scripture clearly says that this law that was engraved on stone was passing away . . .

Then you must be misunderstanding it, because Jesus Himself said the exact opposite.
Mt 5:1717 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


I believe that if you read it again you will find that which passes away is the ministration of death. Not the law. Christ has freed us from the curse of the law, not the requirement to follow it. Obedience is not a curse. By obedience to the law, Christ glorified it. By His example we may walk as He walked.


Additionally . . .

The law being spoken of here is including one of the laws which was engraved on stone which is "You shall not covet". "You shall not covet" was not just a "law on paper". However, we died to that law as well just like the rest of them.

Are you suggesting therefore, according to your philosophy, that because, as you claim, the Christian is dead to the law, it is now okay to covet?
You are quite right in that we, in Christ, are dead to the law. In the flesh, we are dead in Christ. However, that is not the end of the matter as far as the law is concerned. We are born again, raised up with Christ and are seated with Him in heavenly places. We no longer walk in the flesh, but in the Spirit. And the law of the Spirit of Life has freed me from the law of sin and death. But the law of God, the 10 commandments, which are holy, just and good. are not dead. Are not done away. Are not abolished. In the flesh, I could not keep the law, therefore in the flesh, I am under it's curse and stand condemned. But in the Spirit, I have available to me all the power of the Godhead through the Holy Spirit Who abides in me. I have great and precious promises that by them I might be a partaker of the divine nature. Through the Spirit I am transformed into the very image of Christ. Should I not, as a result of all that, not be required to obey the law? Should I sin that grace may abound? God forbid!!

Brakelite

ProjectPeter
Apr 5th 2008, 12:34 PM
PP,
my words are not coming out too well, let me just gibve you a link of a pdf file to read.

You can take it or leave it at that. But it explains what i'm trying to say 100 times better:

http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Acts%2015.pdf

Shalom,
TanjaTanja,

I will try and make this as short as I can but read the article and want to respond to some points.

1. It is built on a faulty premise from the beginning because he focuses on the first part and not the chapter itself. He says that the core issue was that there were those Jews that thought Gentiles could not be saved. So to be saved... they had to become a Jew. In and of itself one has to assume that because that isn't in the text at all.

As a matter of fact... way back from Acts 15... they already knew that Jews could be saved just as they were. That was testified of Peter and those men with him and the elders and other apostles "greatly rejoiced."

Acts 11:17 "If God therefore gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"
18 And when they heard this, they quieted down, and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

Here is what they actually believed from the Acts 15 text.

Acts 15:5 But certain ones of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed, stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."
6 ¶And the apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.

They simply believed they need to be circumcised AND follow the Law of Moses. This is what was up for question and there can be no doubt of that without discarding the actual written words themselves. These were the issues... Agree so far?

Then Peter stands up and confirms the fact that these guys already knew that Gentiles could be saved.

Acts 15:7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8 "And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.


So there can be no question that these guys already knew this fact. Agree so far?

So now to the crux of the matter. They were talking about Gentiles having to be circumcised and having to follow the Law of Moses. Then Peter says this.

Acts 15:10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

What was this yoke Peter was talking about? This guy goes on talking about how it couldn't be the Law of Moses but that is because he is basing things on simple circumcision and rituals to be a proselyte and he never mentions the text which says the reason for the actual debate is that they must be circumcised AND FOLLOW the Law of Moses... not the rituals that he goes on about what they were "really saying." In fact... according to the Acts 15 text they were not speaking of ritual things at all. To deny that is again to just ignore that verse saying what it says... circumcision and FOLLOW the Law of Moses. Here it is again.

Acts 15:5 But certain ones of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed, stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."
6 ¶And the apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.

This has nothing to do with "reading the verses a different way." This guy excludes verses to read it the way that he does. He assumes and he simply makes stuff up as he goes along because the very article... from the first paragraph... sets up a faulty reading of that entire Chapter.

valleybldr
Apr 5th 2008, 12:43 PM
Acts 15:5 But certain ones of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed, stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."
6 ¶And the apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.

They simply believed they need to be circumcised AND follow the Law of Moses. This is what was up for question and there can be no doubt of that without discarding the actual written words themselves. These were the issues... Agree so far? If you asked an observant Jew what it means to "observe the Law of Moses" what would he tell you? todd

ProjectPeter
Apr 5th 2008, 01:20 PM
If you asked an observant Jew what it means to "observe the Law of Moses" what would he tell you? todd
To observe the Law of Moses... many would say the oral laws as well. Other than that... no clue what you are asking.

VerticalReality
Apr 5th 2008, 04:27 PM
Then you must be misunderstanding it, because Jesus Himself said the exact opposite.
Mt 5:1717 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

No, I do not misunderstand. I do not claim that the law is no longer in existence. The law is just not for a Christian. We obey God not because a law says so but because we have been born of His Spirit. We should not need a law telling us right from wrong. We have His Spirit that transforms our heart. Therefore, no law is needed to keep us in check. We have His Spirit leading us into righteousness.


I believe that if you read it again you will find that which passes away is the ministration of death. Not the law.

The law is the ministry of death.

2 Corinthians 3:7
But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,

Paul clearly says here that the ministry of death was that which was engraved on stones.


Christ has freed us from the curse of the law, not the requirement to follow it. Obedience is not a curse. By obedience to the law, Christ glorified it. By His example we may walk as He walked.

In the beginning there was neither a curse nor a law. The law was added because of transgression. It is through the law that there is a curse because the law brings judgment. Without the law there is no judgment. This is why there is no longer any condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. It is because there is no longer a law to condemn them. That doesn't mean that the law doesn't exist. It just means that the law is not for the Christian. So, just because you don't sin doesn't mean you are "keeping law". It simply means you're walking in the Spirit. It is the law that empowers sin. Therefore, if you are trying to keep law then you are just empowering sin to reign in you. It is only by the Spirit that we are able to walk in righteousness.


Are you suggesting therefore, according to your philosophy, that because, as you claim, the Christian is dead to the law, it is now okay to covet?

In the beginning there was no coveting. However, this was not because there was a law saying not to covet. That's just what holiness is all about. If you are holy as He is holy there will be no coveting. Not because there is a law saying not to, but because you have been born of His Spirit and you are walking in His righteousness.


Through the Spirit I am transformed into the very image of Christ. Should I not, as a result of all that, not be required to obey the law? Should I sin that grace may abound? God forbid!!

If you continue in sin you are not in the Spirit. Therefore, you are still under law. If you are in the Spirit you are not under law because in the beginning there was no need for law. Law was only added because of transgression, as the Scriptures clearly say. Therefore, if you are walking in holiness it is not because you are keeping law. It is because you are in the Spirit where God is leading you into righteousness. That's why you see Jesus Christ state things like, "In the beginning . . . " in regards to topics such as divorce. In the beginning there was no divorce, and if you are truly walking in the Spirit there will be no divorce now either. There will be none of this because in the Spirit is where we walk in God's perfect will. The law was given because folks needed to be shown their sin. That should no longer be the case for a person walking by the Spirit. That is why Paul can declare what he did in Galatians 5:18.

DeafPosttrib
Apr 5th 2008, 05:20 PM
VR,

You say,


If you continue in sin you are not in the Spirit. Therefore, you are still under in the Spirit. Therefore, you are still under law. If you are in the Spirit you are not under law because in the beginning these was no need for law....

Ahhh. So, you mean that these 'law' which you spoekn of Moses' laws?

ProtectPeter did explained on this in Romans chapter 6 in previous emails. He explained them very clear.

I would like to discuss on 'law' of Romans chapter 6 thru chapter 8.

Firstly, 'law' of Romans chapter 6 is not talking about Moses' law like as 500 laws. 'Law' of Romans chapter 6 is like as mirror. In Romans 7:5-9 explaining 'law' very clear what it means. I don't have to type every words quote from the Bible. Reding them yourself. Verse 5 tells us, while we are in flesh, the actions of sins, which these are agnist the law, therefore we breask against them bring us forth to death. Verse 6 tells us, but now we are freed from the law by through jesus Christ by the grace, so, we don't follow 500 laws - Moses'law("in the oldeness of the letter"), but now we are walk after the law- spiritual which is called, "the law of the Spirit"-Romans 8:1.

The best definition of "law" of Romans chapter 6 means, "the law of SIN and DEATH" - Romans 8:2.


In Romans 7:9 says, "For I was alive without law oce: but WHEN THE COMMANDMENT CAME, sin reived, and I died."

This verse is speak of the law is like as mirror. When you looking at the mirror yourself in your face, the mirror can reveals you what wrong with in you.

Law shows that we are already trangression against God. Not because of we break the Ten Commandements or 500 laws, because of our flesh is enemy from the spirit. Our flesh brings us to death.

So, the 'law' is not focus on Mosiac Laws or Ten Commandments. It focus on our flesh and sin.

I hope that you understand what I am talking about 'law'.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 5th 2008, 08:32 PM
PP

About Acts 15 and the article, and your rebuttal:

A flat reading of the text without considering the historical aspect or the understanding of the practices of the Jews at that time gives you no choice but to understand the text the way you do.

I have no desire to go round and round with you on this. Suffice to say I agree with the article, and i know the Author to be a very well studied, competent man in regards to scriptures.

When it comes to the yoke which the Law of Moses isn't, though some see it that way including you, we will always disagree. I believe you have misinterpreted some of what the article said.

The yoke that some Pharisees laid as a burden on people was the stiff regulations they had added to the Law, and in this case they were speaking of circumcision in a faithless work which, yes it is in the law, but it is not something you just do and Bam! you're Saved. This is what they were dealing with, false interpretation/misleading doctrines.

Since you and i have different views, and we both have been through this before i find it a waste of time to continue debating this with you.

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 5th 2008, 09:27 PM
Owen,


Yes, but can not God's expectations change. Does a parent expect a four year old child to perform Algebra? Likewise, can not certain expectations of God change depending upon the situation?

You're comparing apples to Oranges, because while here on earth we learn many things for which we later have no application, God's Law is eternal, and always applicable one way or another. Granted there may be some laws that are temporary out of service due to circumstances, but they are not going to be useless.

God's Law is so applicable even for the small child, because even a small child can be explained what the law is and means. Algebra is hard, and of course not appropriate for a child. No child would want to see anything killed.
A child growing up in a Believing household learns the true way of life with the Law of God instilled and applicable for the rest of their life. The scriptures actually teach us that we are to teach our children diligently. There's no age restriction IMO.
The Law does not change for me no matter how old i am.
Granted you could say something about the Laws about Marriage don't apply to a child, but a child should certainly know before it comes of age to marry.

I believe your analogy wasn't a good one.


Let me ask again and answer when you get the change. What does Paul mean when he says that we are not justified by works of the Law?

There are several scriptures i will bring up on this topic:

Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
(no one can live out the law 100 % perfect)
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it--
The manifestation was Yeshua& and His death on the cross shedding His blood for our sins;)
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.
(the righteousness ie Mercy, forgiveness of God comes to us through Faith=action for all who believe -this precludes an understanding of God's will)
For there is no distinction:

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
All sin, no matter what believer unbeliever, practicing Jew or Gentile...we all sin and fall short)
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
(it's his grace that justifies us, the redemption coming through Yeshua)
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
(Actions according to Yeshua being a follower)
Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. (IOW no one can attain righteousness by a robotic working out the law)
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Now, does that mean no one should have any works? James states that Faith without works is dead, IOW it proves there's no Faith)


Context is the key:
What Paul means that no one is justified by the works of the Law, is that a robotic adherence to the Law does not make you righteous.
Note though that the above scriptures do not talk about not needing to follow the Law. It just states the fact that justification is not granted by robotic/mechanical works, but by Faith, which comes from a foundation of Belief..


The key phrase in this whole text is:
"for all who believe."
Belief and Faith are two different things in the scriptures:

Belief is a mental grasp, and understanding taking place, Faith is action, the next step of the things you do once you believe and the understanding has sett;ed in your heart.

If you don't believe that what God wants you to do, then you will have no Faith (action) Faith is the fruit of obedience to what you believe, and this is the result of walking by the Spirit.

Faith is the end product that shows the fruit of your changed mind and the evidence of your Belief.

I hope that answers your last question thoroughly.

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 5th 2008, 09:33 PM
And that's all for me today, because yesterday i went overboard with my time spent here, and the result was that my mind felt fried :lol: I won't do that again!
So please be patient in waiting for answers from me. :hug:

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Apr 6th 2008, 12:10 AM
PP

About Acts 15 and the article, and your rebuttal:

A flat reading of the text without considering the historical aspect or the understanding of the practices of the Jews at that time gives you no choice but to understand the text the way you do.

I have no desire to go round and round with you on this. Suffice to say I agree with the article, and i know the Author to be a very well studied, competent man in regards to scriptures.

When it comes to the yoke which the Law of Moses isn't, though some see it that way including you, we will always disagree. I believe you have misinterpreted some of what the article said.

The yoke that some Pharisees laid as a burden on people was the stiff regulations they had added to the Law, and in this case they were speaking of circumcision in a faithless work which, yes it is in the law, but it is not something you just do and Bam! you're Saved. This is what they were dealing with, false interpretation/misleading doctrines.

Since you and i have different views, and we both have been through this before i find it a waste of time to continue debating this with you.

Shalom,
TanjaTanja,

I don't really care if you think it a waste of time... again that is your burden to bear. But if you are going to say it on this board then rest assured that it will be challenged.

There is no historical view needed when the text makes it clear Tanja. Again... notice that verse your well studied scholar forgot to add in his article which was the very meat of why the elders and apostles got together to discuss the matter. He left it out on purpose Tanja because that would totally disprove his own argument historic stuff aside. I notice as well that you didn't respond to anything at all that I said. Not one of those passages did you respond to but just say .... "WRONG!"

Show Scripturally where I am wrong Tanja. If I am then Scripture will bear that out. If not... then perhaps you are in fact yourself wrong?

They were not talking about man made added laws and rules. They were talking about circumcision and the need to follow the Law of Moses. That is CLEARLY what that text said... is it not? Answer that one question Tanja and then tell me how it is that you think I am in error when I say they were talking about following the Law of Moses and circumcision.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 6th 2008, 12:51 AM
PP,
i completely disagree with you that the historical context and the common way of life does not need to be considered.
That's like reading a history book without the explanations of what the cultural and religious factors were in people's lives.

Which verse are you saying that the author of the article left out? Surely not the one where it talks about Circumcision?

In my defense, i urge you to read Acts 15 the whole chapter and tell me where they actually are telling people they do not NEED to follow the Law at all?

And i can tell you you won't find it, because it's not there, and it was not their intent.

The people that rose up grumbling saying these people needed to be circumcised and be "forced" to observe Torah", possibly wanted proof of the Gentiles true conversion, or simply couldn't grasp grace and Mercy and salvation yet.

It is my understanding that you cannot accept this, based on the fact you leave out the historical and cultural workings of those times. Too bad!!!

You will NOT find anything in Acts to substantiate the Apostles saying anything to the essence of "do not follow the Law"
IT is NOT there to be found!

Rather they said we want to lay no greater burden on you than to abstain from blood strangled ... etc....

If you look at any other text where the word "burden" is used in connection with the Law, you will find that even Yeshua did not proclaim the Law as a burden, but the added regulations that the Pharisees expected people to follow and considered Law.

Mat 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,
Mat 23:3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you--but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.
Here you see Jesus Himself telling people to follow what the pharisees tell them to do and observe, but not to do it for the same motives they had [
Mat 23:5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long,
Mat 23:6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues
Mat 23:7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others. ]

Mat 23:4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.


Common sense and good logic will tell you that if Jesus Himself tells you to do and observe what the Pharisees do, but not doing it for the same motives then it can't be the Law that is a burden, but the ways of the Pharisees and their added expectations that were the true burden.

Moreover, one cannot ignore Acts 21 !!!
It proves that even the Gentiles were zealous of the Law!!!

Act 21:19 After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.
Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law,
Act 21:21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.
Act 21:22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
Act 21:23 Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
Act 21:24 take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.
Act 21:25 But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality."

You can also derive from the text that an Apostle was accused of not observing the Law and even teaching this.
Another Apostle is suggesting for the accused to purify himself and gives further instruction so he can prove there's nothing true about that rumor.

Furthermore the Gentiles learned from the Torah, and the Apostles explained how it fits with Yeshua and what He has done in Acts 13
All this happens on the Sabbath.

Act 13:14 but they went on from Perga and came to Antioch in Pisidia. And on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down.
Act 13:15 After the reading from the Law and the Prophets*, the rulers of the synagogue sent a message to them, saying, "Brothers, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it."

This is customary reading which the Jews still do in the synagogue to this day.

Act 13:42 As they went out, the people begged that these things might be told them the next Sabbath.
Act 13:43 And after the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who, as they spoke with them, urged them to continue in the grace of God.
Act 13:44 The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.

It's ok if you don't agree, but i will NOT change my mind and i am NOT swayed. It is as clear as day to me that Gentiles and Jews alike Practiced Torah (Law) and that they also Believed in Yeshua.

I see clear proof of the Sabbath being observed as well as the Law being followed.


Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Apr 6th 2008, 01:18 AM
PP,
i completely disagree with you that the historical context and the common way of life does not need to be considered.
That's like reading a history book without the explanations of what the cultural and religious factors were in people's lives.

Which verse are you saying that the author of the article left out? Surely not the one where it talks about Circumcision?

In my defense, i urge you to read Acts 15 the whole chapter and tell me where they actually are telling people they do not NEED to follow the Law at all?

And i can tell you you won't find it, because it's not there, and it was not their intent.

The people that rose up grumbling saying these people needed to be circumcised and be "forced" to observe Torah", possibly wanted proof of the Gentiles true conversion, or simply couldn't grasp grace and Mercy and salvation yet.

It is my understanding that you cannot accept this, based on the fact you leave out the historical and cultural workings of those times. Too bad!!!

You will NOT find anything in Acts to substantiate the Apostles saying anything to the essence of "do not follow the Law"
IT is NOT there to be found!

Rather they said we want to lay no greater burden on you than to abstain from blood strangled ... etc....

If you look at any other text where the word "burden" is used in connection with the Law, you will find that even Yeshua did not proclaim the Law as a burden, but the added regulations that the Pharisees expected people to follow and considered Law.

Mat 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,
Mat 23:3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you--but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.
Here you see Jesus Himself telling people to follow what the pharisees tell them to do and observe, but not to do it for the same motives they had [
Mat 23:5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long,
Mat 23:6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues
Mat 23:7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others. ]

Mat 23:4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.


Common sense and good logic will tell you that if Jesus Himself tells you to do and observe what the Pharisees do, but not doing it for the same motives then it can't be the Law that is a burden, but the ways of the Pharisees and their added expectations that were the true burden.

Moreover, one cannot ignore Acts 18 !!!
It proves that even the Gentiles were zealous of the Law!!!

Act 21:19 After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.
Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law,
Act 21:21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.
Act 21:22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
Act 21:23 Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
Act 21:24 take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.
Act 21:25 But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality."

You can also derive from the text that an Apostle was accused of not observing the Law and even teaching this.
Another Apostle is suggesting for the accused to purify himself and gives further instruction so he can prove there's nothing true about that rumor.

Furthermore the Gentiles learned from the Torah, and the Apostles explained how it fits with Yeshua and what He has done in Acts 13
All this happens on the Sabbath.

Act 13:14 but they went on from Perga and came to Antioch in Pisidia. And on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down.
Act 13:15 After the reading from the Law and the Prophets*, the rulers of the synagogue sent a message to them, saying, "Brothers, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it."

This is customary reading which the Jews still do in the synagogue to this day.

Act 13:42 As they went out, the people begged that these things might be told them the next Sabbath.
Act 13:43 And after the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who, as they spoke with them, urged them to continue in the grace of God.
Act 13:44 The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.

It's ok if you don't agree, but i will NOT change my mind and i am NOT swayed. It is as clear as day to me that Gentiles and Jews alike Practiced Torah (Law) and that they also Believed in Yeshua.

I see clear proof of the Sabbath being observed as well as the Law being followed.

Believe what you want.

Shalom,
TanjaRead Galatians Tanja. Pay close attention to what Paul said about being bewitched. You are close, if not already, crossing some very hard lines to come back from.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 6th 2008, 02:14 AM
PP,

It's too bad you think me bewitched and you figure you're 100% right.

NOTHING has bewitched me, i understand those verses very well:

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by [B]works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?


This again speaks only to a person who does not Believe in Yeshua!!!

As i said before a robotic and mechanical observing of the Law gets no one anywhere!!!

But do you fully understand what the writer of Galatians here meant by "hearing with Faith"?

I would say from your position and standpoint NO, you do not understand.

Shama o Yisrael
Adonai eloheinu Adonai echad!

Hear o Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your strength!

To Hear means to OBEY!!!

When God addressed the people then it was as if God said "listen up!" And anytime i have seen/heard a parent say that to their child it meant HEAR me AND OBEY me!

H8085
שׁמע
shâma‛
shaw-mah'
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.): - X attentively, call (gather) together, X carefully, X certainly, consent, consider, be content, declare, X diligently, discern, give ear, (cause to, let, make to) hear (-ken, tell), X indeed, listen, make (a) noise, (be) obedient, obey, perceive, (make a) proclaim (-ation), publish, regard, report, shew (forth), (make a) sound, X surely, tell, understand, whosoever [heareth], witness.

Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

אמנה אמוּנה
'ĕmûnâh 'ĕmûnâh
em-oo-naw', em-oo-naw'
Feminine of H529; literally firmness; figuratively security; moral fidelity: - faith (-ful, -ly, -ness, [man]), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily.

In my reading of scripture i find that Faith equals ACTION, or DOING

So now when you read this sentence of "Hearing with Faith", it means to OBEY with ACTION

Now since the Previous verse speaks to remind the reader of Yeshua being the one who died for our sins, who worked miracles not by a mechanical adherence to the law, but also by Hearing with Faith, having the Law in His heart and Compassion, i see the following sequence:
Hearing+Believing = Faith/Action ---> Justification


Therefore it is very clear to me that i'm NOT bewitched, nor am i misled.

Too bad you see it that way!


Shalom,
Tanja

TheDayIsComing
Apr 6th 2008, 02:31 AM
What do you guys make of this passage?

“But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who ‘will render to each one according to his deeds’: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil… but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good... For there is no partiality with God... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified… in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.” (Romans 2:5-16)

Based on a face value reading, it seems like Paul is in some way espousing a characteristically Jewish understanding of salvation, that on the final day when we all appear at the judgment we will be evaluated - and justified or condemned - according to how we lived out our lives, whether our deeds were good or evil. In other words, it seems like Paul is presenting a doctrine of justification according to works.

I'd love to hear your thoughts...

The first part is talking about those that God already chose for wrath. (to show that he is just) There are some that God did not choose to save and they will be judged by what they have done because they hated God and loved sin.

Those who are His sheep(the ones he decided to have mercy on) will do good because God will put it in our hearts to do so. We won't be perfect but we will hate our sins and love God and we will show love to our neighbor and repent of sins. We will be doers of the law written on our hearts by God-->The leading of the Holy Spirit for each situation. (not the ten commandments which were meant to show how we could not follow God by our own will, since no one is able to keep every one of the 10 commandments and without pride)

ProjectPeter
Apr 6th 2008, 02:44 AM
PP,

It's too bad you think me bewitched and you figure you're 100% right.

NOTHING has bewitched me, i understand those verses very well:

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by [B]works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?


This again speaks only to a person who does not Believe in Yeshua!!!

As i said before a robotic and mechanical observing of the Law gets no one anywhere!!!

But do you fully understand what the write of galatians here meant by "hearing with Faith"?

I would say from your postion and standpoint NO, you do not understand.

Shama o Yisrael
Adonai eloheinu Adonai echad!

Hear o Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your strenght!

To Hear means to OBEY!!!

H8085
שׁמע
shâma‛
shaw-mah'
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.): - X attentively, call (gather) together, X carefully, X certainly, consent, consider, be content, declare, X diligently, discern, give ear, (cause to, let, make to) hear (-ken, tell), X indeed, listen, make (a) noise, (be) obedient, obey, perceive, (make a) proclaim (-ation), publish, regard, report, shew (forth), (make a) sound, X surely, tell, understand, whosoever [heareth], witness.

Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

אמנה אמוּנה
'ĕmûnâh 'ĕmûnâh
em-oo-naw', em-oo-naw'
Feminine of H529; literally firmness; figuratively security; moral fidelity: - faith (-ful, -ly, -ness, [man]), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily.

In my reading of scripture i find that Faith equals ACTION, or DOING

So now when you read this sentence of "Hearing with Faith", it means to OBEY with ACTION

Now since the Previous verse speaks to remind the reader of Yeshua being the one who died for our sins, who worked miracles not by a mechanical adhereance to the law, but also by Hearing with Faith, having the Law in His heart and Compassion.

Therefore it is very clear to me that i'm NOT bewitched, nor am i misled.

Too bad you see it that way!


Shalom,
TanjaTanja,

This is not talking about unbelievers. You've got to be kidding me right?

It is speaking of folks that BEGAN in the Spirit. Tanja.... unbelievers don't begin in the Spirit. What do you think Paul was meaning by being perfected by the flesh?

They needed to be circumcised. They needed to follow the Law of Moses.
Look at what he called the people that were teaching them this mess.

Galatians 1:6 ¶I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

They DISTORT the gospel of Christ.

Look what Paul said about these folks again.

Galatians 1:8 But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.


Let him be accursed. Gotta figure that Paul was pretty serious about all of this.

Galatians 2:19 "For through the Law I died to the Law, that I might live to God.
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.
21 "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Die to the Law Tanja. Then you can live to God.

Also Paul says...

Galatians 3:23 ¶But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

If you justified by faith... you no longer are under that tutor.

Galatians 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2 ¶Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
8 This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you.

This isn't from Christ Tanja.

And Tanja... he was talking about the Law of Moses here and circumcision. That is EXACTLY why Paul mentions in this letter the visit to Jerusalem and the whole Acts 15 thing we talked about. Here is what he says about it.

Galatians 5:10 I have confidence in you in the Lord, that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is.
11 But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.
12 Would that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.

You think Paul preached the Law to the Gentiles then you aren't reading. He did not preach that the Gentiles needed to be circumcised Tanja. That was the VERY first thing with Abraham and the covenant with him. Paul didn't even require circumcision and yet you want to tell me some historic nonsense to try and say that Paul preached they should follow the Law?

Look... if you want to do the Mitzvahs and festivals and all that hoopla then hey... if that helps you sleep better at night then cool. But you Tanja are taking it WAY beyond what any Gentile should take it. Jew too for that matter. Righteousness is not in the law Tanja. It is in faith in Christ and only faith in Christ. Come out from among the tutor Tanja. There is freedom only in Christ.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 6th 2008, 03:50 AM
Boy this is gonna get long!


Tanja,

This is not talking about unbelievers. You've got to be kidding me right?
"Who has bewitched you". Those are unbelievers.

It is speaking of folks that BEGAN in the Spirit. Tanja.... unbelievers don't begin in the Spirit. What do you think Paul was meaning by being perfected by the flesh?
Those who would start in the Spirit and go to the robotic works in the flesh would also become unbelievers if Paul wouldn't stop them by admonishing them.

They needed to be circumcised. They needed to follow the Law of Moses.
Look at what he called the people that were teaching them this mess.
They were teaching a gospel without without Yeshua just based on works.
Someone who believes in Yeshua should still obey His commandments:
Joh 14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome,

Galatians 1:6 ¶I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Yes, a gospel that preaches adherence to the law without Christ is another gospel

They DISTORT the gospel of Christ.
indeed those pharisees that arose did do that.

Look what Paul said about these folks again.

Galatians 1:8 But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
Yes, anyone who teaches the Law without Christ is accursed.
9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.


Let him be accursed. Gotta figure that Paul was pretty serious about all of this.
Very serious, just as serious as the opposite:
Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Galatians 2:19 "For through the Law I died to the Law, that I might live to God.
Yes, i too have died through the Law, IOW killed my flesh so that i can follow His commandments.
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.
The life i live in the flesh now is after the Spirit; Actions through the Word of God all for the glory of God!
21 "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
No bones about it mechanically and a robotic following of the Law does not make you righteous.

Die to the Law Tanja. Then you can live to God.
Through the law my sin is uncovered and that part of my flesh dies, so i can live for God.

Also Paul says...

Galatians 3:23 ¶But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Easy to understand before Faith came no one could be justified, so of course such a one was shut up under the Law.
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.
I love my Rabbi Yeshua, He is the best Tutor there ever was!! The Word is truth,there's no better tutor than that!
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Who are you to judge whether i need a tutor no longer? Do you expect me to gain perfection in just 3 years of walking and learning His ways?
God knows when the time has come that i will no longer need tutoring.
There are areas i no longer need tutoring and there are areas i still am in need!
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Yes, I'm a child/daughter of God through faith in Yeshua

If you justified by faith... you no longer are under that tutor.


Galatians 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
No, i am trying my best to stand firm so that i will not be yoked by sin anymore!
2 ¶Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Agreed! If i were a male getting a physical circumcision just so that i could say "i followed the Law" Christ will not be of benefit to me.
3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Again, If i became a Jewish Proselyte, adhering to the Law plus ORAL traditions I would be obligated to follow ALL of it. This would sever me from Christ, whose yoke is easy. One must know that historically the Oral Torah sometimes even took preceedence over the written Word!
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Agreed!
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
As do I!
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
Only the circumcision of the heart counts for everything. The Law in my heart is circumcising me.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
I'm still running well!
8 This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you.
No, it came from the Pharisees who believed not in Messiah!

This isn't from Christ Tanja.
See above!

And Tanja... he was talking about the Law of Moses here and circumcision. That is EXACTLY why Paul mentions in this letter the visit to Jerusalem and the whole Acts 15 thing we talked about. Here is what he says about it.

Galatians 5:10 I have confidence in you in the Lord, that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is.
Yes.....
11 But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.
Funny that there were some who actually thought Paul was still preaching circumcision. Yeah, I'm sure he was wondering why he then was still being persecuted!
12 Would that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.

You think Paul preached the Law to the Gentiles then you aren't reading. He did not preach that the Gentiles needed to be circumcised Tanja. That was the VERY first thing with Abraham and the covenant with him. Paul didn't even require circumcision and yet you want to tell me some historic nonsense to try and say that Paul preached they should follow the Law?
He did teach the Law, but not in the same way the Pharisees did, He taught and lived the Law Lawfully. No Circumcision is not gaining you entrance to the covenant, He would not teach contrary to that, However, he also never taught that Circumcision is now abolished.
He just said Circumcision done for fleshly reasons for the purpose of entering the Covenant was not going to count for anything.
I do not have my son circumcised, He can make that choice later when He feels he is ready and his Faith in Yeshua is strong.

Look... if you want to do the Mitzvahs and festivals and all that hoopla then hey... if that helps you sleep better at night then cool. But you Tanja are taking it WAY beyond what any Gentile should take it. Jew too for that matter. Righteousness is not in the law Tanja. It is in faith in Christ and only faith in Christ. Come out from among the tutor Tanja. There is freedom only in Christ.

It's not hoopla, it's commanded by God.
I'm not taking it further than a Gentile should, I'm following my Master Yeshua that is pure freedom to walk as He walked and knowing that through my believing in Him being my cover for my sins and my having Faith that i will be justified.

Here's a Verse i think those that speaks volumes to a group that thinks Grace has replaced the Law.

Gal 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

If you through love serve one another, you're likely upholding most of the Law anyway. So don't sweat it, i do not consider myself better than anyone.

Shalom,
Tanja

valleybldr
Apr 6th 2008, 01:22 PM
To observe the Law of Moses... many would say the oral laws as well. Other than that... no clue what you are asking.
No, you got it. It includes the "traditions of the Fathers" which the apostles and early church did not follow. todd

ProjectPeter
Apr 6th 2008, 02:24 PM
Boy this is gonna get long!



Here's a Verse i think those that speaks volumes to a group that thinks Grace has replaced the Law.

Gal 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

If you through love serve one another, you're likely upholding most of the Law anyway. So don't sweat it, i do not consider myself better than anyone.

Shalom,
TanjaSince you put all of your comments within my quote it is to much a pain to try and go through all that and cut and paste and quote and end quote so I will address it here on a few points.

It wasn't unbelievers telling them that. Just as it wasn't unbelievers in Jerusalem at the counsel meeting. It was Pharisees who were believers.

Acts 15:5 But certain ones of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed, stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."

Also... you totally blew off the part about the Law being the tutor that Paul was speaking of there... not your "Rabbi, Jesus." Jesus isn't the tutor that Paul was speaking of. ANd right after that you go on about you still need to be under the tutor (law) and not your loved tutor Jesus? It is things like this that leave me scratching my head a bit.

As to your trying to stand firm so as to not be yoked by sin again... if you are following the Law as a means of not being yoked by sin again Tanja... you are following the wrong thing. You do not have to convert to Judaism "officially" Tanja for any of Galatians to apply to you. That is a perfect example of legalism in all honesty. When you say that the Law is required for you to follow in order to be obedient to Christ then you are in fact seeking your righteousness from that Law. That is exactly the yoke that Paul, Peter and James speak of.

Paul did not teach that "circumcision done for fleshly reasons....." Paul taught that you didn't have to be circumcised. If you were a Gentile and uncircumcised then there is no requirement for you to be circumcised. If you were a Jew and were circumcised then there was no requirement for you to be uncircumcised. Paul's point... circumcision of that little piece of flesh didn't matter in regard to God and salvation. Paul did not have Titus circumcised because he was Greek. It wasn't required of him to be circumcised and had Paul though following the Law a requirement even for the Gentile Tanja... He'd of had the man circumcised. Paul didn't. That is one of the MAJOR requirements of the Law... even for the foreign servants etc..

And no Tanja... I can look in my clothes closet or drawers and see that I am not following the Law of Moses. No matter how much I act in love... no matter how hard I try to keep free of that yoke of sin. That was exactly the issue with the Law and exactly the dilemma that Paul pointed out in Romans 7.

ProjectPeter
Apr 6th 2008, 02:24 PM
No, you got it. It includes the "traditions of the Fathers" which the apostles and early church did not follow. todd
Okay... so I assume a point is fixing to follow? :lol:

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 6th 2008, 04:05 PM
PP,


It wasn't unbelievers telling them that. Just as it wasn't unbelievers in Jerusalem at the counsel meeting. It was Pharisees who were believers.

That's right, PP, past tense, they HAD been believers, they WERE believers, but no more because they were not believing in (the WORK OF) YESHUA. Both your statement and the scriptures prove my point!

Acts 15:5 But certain ones of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed, stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."


Also... you totally blew off the part about the Law being the tutor that Paul was speaking of there... not your "Rabbi, Jesus." Jesus isn't the tutor that Paul was speaking of. ANd right after that you go on about you still need to be under the tutor (law) and not your loved tutor Jesus? It is things like this that leave me scratching my head a bit.Scratch on! Yeshua is the Word isn't He? He embodies the Law as it was the Word given at Mt Sinai! Yeshua is the each and every single Word God ever spoke. The Word became flesh.... The Law was embodied in the Form of Yeshua... He lived it as it lived in His heart it was the most perfect from of the Law ever alive.

So Yes, the Word=Yeshua is my Tutor!!!


When you say that the Law is required for you to follow in order to be obedient to Christ then you are in fact seeking your righteousness from that Law.How could i be seeking my own righteousness if I follow that which God has commanded?
This sort of thinking is beyond me. Which flesh wants to follow God's Commandments? I know of none! The flesh is contrary to the Law. However When the Spirit has engraven the Commandment of God in my heart, i crucify my flesh to follow that which i know in my heart and which is of God in the flesh. This can hardly be considered as of my own doing!
I'm sorry you see it that way!


Paul did not teach that "circumcision done for fleshly reasons....." Paul taught that you didn't have to be circumcised. If you were a Gentile and uncircumcised then there is no requirement for you to be circumcised. If you were a Jew and were circumcised then there was no requirement for you to be uncircumcised.
I disagree with your above statement which i highlighted in bold.
To make this statement correct it would have to be more detailed IMO:
If you were a Gentile there was no requirement for you to be circumcised to enter the covenant Hence a Jews fleshly circumcision didn't count for anything either, unless he/she was circumcised in the heart. That there was no rerquirement to become uncircumcised is a no brainer, you can't undo a circumcision. This proves that Paul was teaching a circumcision of the heart was the important thing and mattered to God.
After that took place it was no problem to undergo the ritual of conversion for man and woman alike. It's still a law after all, you can compare it to the ritual of Baptism by water, which is an outward manifestation and symbol of the conversion of your heart.


And no Tanja... I can look in my clothes closet or drawers and see that I am not following the Law of Moses. No matter how much I act in love...The commandments of God are contained in the Law of Moses. You forget that there was/is an Oral Torah that Jews had lifeted to the status of the written Torah.
If you're not following God's commandments then i don't know what to say!


...no matter how hard I try to keep free of that yoke of sin. Herein lies the crux of your misunderstanding scripture and my position, the Law is NOT a yoke of sin.

Rom 7:7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."

Sin is bondage, but NEVER is the Law bondage
How can the Law be sin, if the transgression of law is sin....

1Jn 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. Note, it says that whoever commits sin is a slave to SIN and NOT a slave to the LAW

So the Law is Just, and if it's JUST it can't be SIN:

Rom 7:12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good.

The Law was NEVER a YOKE
Only the Oral traditions or Oral Torah was that yoke, the burden, which the Pharisees made the people bear.

The Law is Good and HOLY, a delight, a lamp to one's feet:

Rom 7:12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Psa 119:92 If your law had not been my delight, I would have perished in my affliction.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, (Inner being, get it! It's in the heart, and when the Law is in your heart it means that by Faith you walk it out in the flesh!)

Psa 119:105 Nun. Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.


And something more: You said the Law should not be my tutor anymore. I will point out to you what King David said about one who meditated on it day and night:

Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers;
Psa 1:2 but his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night.
Psa 1:3 He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers.

Jos 1:8 This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.

The Law is Peace!

Psa 119:165 Great peace have those who love your law; nothing can make them stumble.

Isa 48:18 Oh that you had paid attention to my commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea;

IMO the way you see things it negates the usefulness of a good portion of the OT.

Shalom,
Tanja

valleybldr
Apr 6th 2008, 04:32 PM
And no Tanja... I can look in my clothes closet or drawers and see that I am not following the Law of Moses. What clothes of linen and wool mix do you have? Is this one of those silly obsolete laws given by that capricious God? todd

ProjectPeter
Apr 6th 2008, 05:12 PM
PP,




Scratch on! Yeshua is the Word isn't He? He embodies the Law as it was the Word given at Mt Sinai! Yeshua is the each and every single Word God ever spoke. The Word became flesh.... The Law was embodied in the Form of Yeshua... He lived it as it lived in His heart it was the most perfect from of the Law ever alive.Tanja, don't get trapped up in religious speak word games. Yes, Jesus is "the Word" but what do you honestly think that means?


So Yes, the Word=Yeshua is my Tutor!!!Alrighty then. The "Word" isn't the Law of Moses. Does that help? The Law of Moses was just what it says... the Law of Moses. ;)


How could i be seeking my own righteousness if I follow that which God has commanded? What did God command of you... the Law of Moses? Don't think so... you are a Gentile believer in Christ. You are not bound by that Law.


This sort of thinking is beyond me. Which flesh wants to follow God's Commandments? I know of none other than the sinfull flesh. However When the Spirit has engraven the Commandment of God in my heart, i crucify my flesh to follow that which i know in my heart and which is of God in the flesh. This can hardly be considered as of my own doing!
I'm sorry you see it that way!The Commandment of God is not the Law of Moses either. We've done this before but remember the Moses allowed for divorce (In the Law of Moses) but MOSES allowed for that because of their hardened hearts. God did not ever intend it to be so. Then Jesus goes on to explain how much of that divorce was in fact nothing short of adultery.


I disagree with your above statement which i bolded.
To make this statement correct it would have to be more detailed IMO:
If you were a Gentile there was no requirement for you to be circumcised to enter the covenant Hence a Jews fleshly circumcision didn't count for anything either, unless he/she was circumcised in the heart. That there was no rerquirement to become uncircumcised is a no brainer, you can't undo a circumcision. This proves that Paul was teaching a circumcision of the heart was the important thing and mattered to God.

After that took place it was no problem to undergo the ritual of conversion for man and woman alike. It's still a law after all, you can compare it to the ritual of Baptism by water, which is an outward manifestation and symbol of the conversion of your heart.Uh... it's okay if someone wants to do it no problem. But if they don't... it is no sin. If it ain't a sin then it ain't disobedience. If it ain't a sin or disobedience... then it ain't required.

Galatians 2:1 Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also.
2 And it was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain.
3 But not even Titus who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.
4 But it was because of the false brethren who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.
5 But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you.


If it was something necessary for obedience... then Paul would have instructed Titus to be circumcised. Paul would have never encouraged or allowed disobedience Tanja.


The commandments of God are contained in the Law of Moses. You forget that there was/is an Oral Torah that Jews had lifeted to the status of the written Torah.

If you're not following God's commandments then i don't know what to say!Again... God's commandments are God's commandments and you can add Christ to that. Moses' law was Moses' law and even Jesus made such distinction. It was required of the Jew to follow that Law. That is exactly the point that Jesus made in telling the folks to do what the Pharisee said but not as they do. They (notice the words) sat in the seat of Moses. In other words... they were the nations leaders. Christ never taught rebellion against the leaders of the nations. Neither did the Apostles.

I'll finish the rest of this in another post because it is already long.

ProjectPeter
Apr 6th 2008, 05:32 PM
Herin lies the crux of your misunderstanding scripture and my position, the Law is not a yoke of sin.Tanja... I did not call the Law a yoke of sin. :rolleyes: The Law isn't going to get you out from under the yoke of sin. It can't. Goodness... my misunderstanding? You can't even see what I am saying I suppose.




Rom 7:7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."

Sin is bondage NEVER the LawAnd what did Paul say the Law did Tanja? Pick and choose your passages but context Tanja... context.

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 And I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive, and I died;
10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11 for sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Please... read on and the rest.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.



How can the Law be sin, if the transgression of law is sin....

1Jn 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. Note, it says that whoever commits sin is a slave to SIN and NOT a slave to the LAW

So the Law is Just, and if it's JUST it can't be SIN:Speaking of misunderstanding... once again. I did not say that the Law was sin. That is totally ludicrous of you to even get out of what I said truth be told.




Rom 7:12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good.

The Law was NEVER a YOKE
Only the Oral traditions or Oral Torah was that yoke, the burden, which the Pharisees made the people bear.

The Law is Good and HOLY, a delight, a lamp to one's feet:

Rom 7:12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Psa 119:92 If your law had not been my delight, I would have perished in my affliction.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, (Inner being, get it! It's in the heart, and when the Law is in your heart it means that by Faith you walk it out in the flesh!)

Psa 119:105 Nun. Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.Survey says.... EEEEEEHHHHHHHH! Sorry... saw a goofy rerun of Family Feud the other day!

That is exactly what they were talking about in Acts 15. They weren't talking about sin Tanja. They were talking about the Gentiles having to be circumcised and follow the Law of Moses. You can run from that... but you can't hide from that fact and all of the websites that say what you want them to tell you.... can't take away from what is written in the Scripture. It was a yoke. God put it on them as a yoke because of their disobedience. They couldn't follow Ten without messing up. Then came over 600 and then came the mouths with the goofy oral stuff. God gave them all this stuff because of their stiff necks.



And something more: You said the Law should not be my tutor anymore. I will point out to you what King David said about one who meditated on it day and night:

Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers;
Psa 1:2 but his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night.
Psa 1:3 He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers.

Jos 1:8 This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.

The Law is Peace!

Psa 119:165 Great peace have those who love your law; nothing can make them stumble.

Isa 48:18 Oh that you had paid attention to my commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea;

IMO the way you see things it negates the usefullness of a good portion of the OT.

Shalom,
TanjaJust in case you forgot... then came Jesus. Jesus is now our peace. We look back to Christ and we no longer need the Law as our tutor. We have our righteousness in Christ. Not the Law.

ProjectPeter
Apr 6th 2008, 05:36 PM
What clothes of linen and wool mix do you have? Is this one of those silly obsolete laws given by that capricious God? todd
Likely something... and if you didn't get the point because of legalism itself... then tis a shame. It was simply a point. List all 600 plus of the laws of Moses... I guarantee you that there are many that you, me, nor anyone else is following. That was the point. Certainly we have our excuses for not following but hey... everyone has excuses. In the end... that's all they are.

valleybldr
Apr 6th 2008, 06:23 PM
Likely something... and if you didn't get the point because of legalism itself... then tis a shame. Ouch, the "L" word. Legalism is a heart problem. At it's core it has nothing to do with being obedient to our Lord's instructions. todd

ProjectPeter
Apr 6th 2008, 06:27 PM
Ouch, the "L" word. Legalism is a heart problem. At it's core it has nothing to do with being obedient to our Lord's instructions. todd
Being obedient to the Lords instruction is wonderful and I preach that louder than most on this forum. But we're talking the Law of Moses... and yes, there is a difference. Part of the very core of Jesus' teaching as it was the teaching of Paul. Was the Law holy? You bet it was. But what did it do for man? Simply pointed out sin as well as put a burden on them that none of them could live up to. That is exactly why God let them have that Law... because of their hard and stubborn hearts.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 6th 2008, 06:28 PM
PP,

I've already explained myself numerous times, and the discussion is beginging to be circular.
So i will just touch on some points:


Alrighty then. The "Word" isn't the Law of Moses. Does that help? The Law of Moses was just what it says... the Law of Moses.

I simply disagree:

Everything Moses wrote in the book of Law was given to him by the Word of God:

Deu 28:58 If you do not diligently observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, fearing this glorious and awesome name, the Lord your God,
Deu 28:59 then the Lord will overwhelm both you and your offspring with severe and lasting afflictions and grievous and lasting maladies.
Deu 28:60 He will bring back upon you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were in dread, and they shall cling to you.
Deu 28:61 Every other malady and affliction, even though not recorded in the book of this law, the Lord will inflict on you until you are destroyed.
Deu 28:62 Although once you were as numerous as the stars in heaven, you shall be left few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God.


This shows that God would personally mete out judgement for those who didn't obey. If God didn't give those rules then why would He consider punishment?


Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

The Law of the Spirit of life is the law of the Torah in our hearts which gives life!
The Law of sin and death was the requirements of punishemts we no longer are bound to.
This does NOT talk about the law being sin and death, but rather the Law requiring death because of sin.

Just like the speed limit Law will require you to be fined if you break the speed limit. Otherwise you're upholding the Law. Should you as a lawabiding citizen for some reason be caught speeding, perhaps the judge may let you go free because you're normally abiding. This is the Grace that comes from God through Yeshua.

That does not mean you're now above the law and can speed whenever you want because God gives you grace!

Now the Law of "Moses" says that you are to attach fringes to your garments so that any who may look upon them may be reminded of the law of God.
God Him self gave that Commandment, it wasn't just added on the whim of Moses!

Read Deuteronomy from Chapter 12 on down to Chapter 28 is ALL spoken by God.

In conclusion you see here in Chapter 29

Deu 29:1 These are the words of the covenant that the LORD commanded Moses to make with the people of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant that he had made with them at Horeb.

All this came AFTER they had been at Mt Sinai you see this Law as irrevelant because the people prooved to be stiffnecked, i on the other hand see tese Laws as an extension of the two greatest, of which the ten are en extension.

I see it like this: 2 = 10 = 613 they all are relevant.

Here's some further instruction given directly at Mt Sinai:

Lev 25:1 The LORD spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai, saying,
Lev 25:2 "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When you come into the land that I give you, the land shall keep a Sabbath to the LORD.
Lev 25:3 For six years you shall sow your field, and for six years you shall prune your vineyard and gather in its fruits,
Lev 25:4 but in the seventh year there shall be a Sabbath of solemn rest for the land, a Sabbath to the LORD. You shall not sow your field or prune your vineyard.
Lev 25:5 You shall not reap what grows of itself in your harvest, or gather the grapes of your undressed vine. It shall be a year of solemn rest for the land.

So is this too the Law of Moses to you?

Perhaps you would say it isn't relevant anymore for today, because we know how to fertilize crops and so we don't need to go by the 7 year rule.... and so on blah blah blah.

This is your choice, just as it is mine! I personally look to all that God has said and consider the wisdom behin His words, and see it aplenty. I believe it is not bad at all to do any of this, because it is something caring and loving people would do anyways.
That is, if we didn't live in such a corrupted world who has skewed the truth to smithereens and many don't even have an idea how far the trtuh has been skewed.

Who today would think to let their land lay fallow on the 7th year to give it a break?
Just because we know how to enrich the sopil and add fertilizer doesn't mean it is now as good and perfect as God's Law!

Since when has selfish man ever come up with anything that turned out as good as it did when one followed God's Law?


The scriptures speak to this over and over again, not to lean onto our own understanding!

Shalom,
Tanja




There are many more that God commanded, and many consider to be the law of Moses.

valleybldr
Apr 6th 2008, 06:39 PM
Being obedient to the Lords instruction is wonderful and I preach that louder than most on this forum. But we're talking the Law of Moses... and yes, there is a difference. Part of the very core of Jesus' teaching as it was the teaching of Paul. Was the Law holy? You bet it was. But what did it do for man? Simply pointed out sin as well as put a burden on them that none of them could live up to. That is exactly why God let them have that Law... because of their hard and stubborn hearts.
You make it sound like punishment. Oh well, we all have our calling and I'm not here to second guess what God is or is not doing in other believers hearts. todd

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 6th 2008, 06:39 PM
eing obedient to the Lords instruction is wonderful and I preach that louder than most on this forum. But we're talking the Law of Moses... and yes, there is a difference. Part of the very core of Jesus' teaching as it was the teaching of Paul. Was the Law holy? You bet it was. But what did it do for man? Simply pointed out sin as well as put a burden on them that none of them could live up to. That is exactly why God let them have that Law... because of their hard and stubborn hearts.I disagree that the law only and simply was just to point out sin in man. This scenario only applies to one who does not have a circumcised heart. In such a case the law condemns.

The Law is not a burden, and with Yeshua's help it can be lived up to. Granted we won't be perfect til He comes back to make us new.

Take the example of cain and Abel. Outwardly both did bring sacrifices and gave the best of what they had. However, obviously Cain did not have it in His heart to please God, as God admonished him with these words:

Gen 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it."
And to this day this is no different than it is from Cain.

This is the very reason God accepted Abel's offering but not Cain's.

Perhaps our disagreement also lies in the fact that i believe that while in this life we look to Yeshua for salvation, we are by far yet not perfect, and won't be til he returns. Therefore i believe that we still need a guide.

Shalom,
Tanja

Mograce2U
Apr 6th 2008, 06:41 PM
Jesusinmyheart,


It may also be the fact that i believe that while in this life we look to Yeshua for salvation, we are by far yet not perfect, and won't be til he returns. Therefore i believe that we still need a guide.
That is why He sent us the Holy Spirit.

ProjectPeter
Apr 6th 2008, 07:13 PM
PP,

I've already explained myself numerous times, and the discussion is beginging to be circular.
So i will just touch on some points:



I simply disagree:

Everything Moses wrote in the book of Law was given to him by the Word of God:So God instructed Moses to give as a Law something that God didn't intend from the beginning? Jesus, being the Word, as you used the phrase yourself... gave Moses instruction contrary to God?

Matthew 19:7 They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY ?"
8 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart, Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.
9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Notice Jesus didn't say here that God allowed you to divorce. He laid that squarely where it was intended to be laid. Moses allowed it.

You are never going to get around this passage of Scripture Tanja. Some have seen it but most don't. But nevertheless... it's there.


Deu 28:58 If you do not diligently observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, fearing this glorious and awesome name, the Lord your God,
Deu 28:59 then the Lord will overwhelm both you and your offspring with severe and lasting afflictions and grievous and lasting maladies.
Deu 28:60 He will bring back upon you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were in dread, and they shall cling to you.
Deu 28:61 Every other malady and affliction, even though not recorded in the book of this law, the Lord will inflict on you until you are destroyed.
Deu 28:62 Although once you were as numerous as the stars in heaven, you shall be left few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God.



This shows that God would personally mete out judgement for those who didn't obey. If God didn't give those rules then why would He consider punishment?If God gave those rules Tanja as "set in stone" rules... God would have never forgave David. He'd of killed him instead. Goodness... can't you see that it was these very rules that caused Israel to become what they became? A bunch of folk as Paul called them... zealous for the Law. No focus on God... just following them there laws!

God gave them ALL of those various laws because they were disobedient to the few He gave them and God was angry with them. Furthermore... God knew they couldn't keep all of those laws when they were given. That was the price they paid for their stubborn and hard hearts.

Ezekiel 20

1 Now it came about in the seventh year, in the fifth month, on the tenth of the month, that certain of the elders of Israel came to inquire of the LORD, and sat before me.
2 And the word of the LORD came to me saying,
3 "Son of man, speak to the elders of Israel, and say to them, `Thus says the Lord GOD, "Do you come to inquire of Me? As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "I will not be inquired of by you."´
4 "Will you judge them, will you judge them, son of man? Make them know the abominations of their fathers;
5 and say to them, `Thus says the Lord GOD, "On the day when I chose Israel and swore to the descendants of the house of Jacob and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, when I swore to them, saying, I am the LORD your God,
6 on that day I swore to them, to bring them out from the land of Egypt into a land that I had selected for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands.
7 "And I said to them, `Cast away, each of you, the detestable things of his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt; I am the LORD your God.´
8 "But they rebelled against Me and were not willing to listen to Me; they did not cast away the detestable things of their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. ¶Then I resolved to pour out My wrath on them, to accomplish My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.
9 "But I acted for the sake of My name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations among whom they lived, in whose sight I made Myself known to them by bringing them out of the land of Egypt.
10 "So I took them out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness.
11 "And I gave them My statutes and informed them of My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live.
12 "And also I gave them My sabbaths to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.
13 "But the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness. They did not walk in My statutes, and they rejected My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live; and My sabbaths they greatly profaned. Then I resolved to pour out My wrath on them in the wilderness, to annihilate them.
14 "But I acted for the sake of My name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations, before whose sight I had brought them out.
15 "And also I swore to them in the wilderness that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands,
16 because they rejected My ordinances, and as for My statutes, they did not walk in them; they even profaned My sabbaths, for their heart continually went after their idols.
17 "Yet My eye spared them rather than destroying them, and I did not cause their annihilation in the wilderness.
18 ¶"And I said to their children in the wilderness, `Do not walk in the statutes of your fathers, or keep their ordinances, or defile yourselves with their idols.
19 `I am the LORD your God; walk in My statutes, and keep My ordinances, and observe them.
20 `And sanctify My sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.´
21 "But the children rebelled against Me; they did not walk in My statutes, nor were they careful to observe My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live; they profaned My sabbaths. So I resolved to pour out My wrath on them, to accomplish My anger against them in the wilderness.
22 "But I withdrew My hand and acted for the sake of My name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out.
23 "Also I swore to them in the wilderness that I would scatter them among the nations and disperse them among the lands,
24 because they had not observed My ordinances, but had rejected My statutes, and had profaned My sabbaths, and their eyes were on the idols of their fathers.
25 "And I also gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live;
26 and I pronounced them unclean because of their gifts, in that they caused all their first-born to pass through the fire so that I might make them desolate, in order that they might know that I am the LORD."´


Their disobedience brought this on Tanja. Not to all of those ordinances and statutes... their disobedience to simple things that God asked of them.



The Law of the Spirit of life is the law of the Torah in our hearts which gives life!No Tanja... it is the law of Christ... of God. His gospel.



The Law of sin and death was the requirements of punishemts we no longer are bound to.
This does NOT talk about the law being sin and death, but rather the Law requiring death because of sin.Again Tanja... I never called the Law sin. You aren't being honest when you keep saying that. If you didn't get that clearly from my last post... then you need to go back and read it.




Just like the speed limit Law will require you to be fined if you break the speed limit. Otherwise you're upholding the Law. Should you as a lawabiding citizen for some reason be caught speeding, perhaps the judge may let you go free because you're normally abiding. This is the Grace that comes from God through Yeshua. The Law Tanja... it doesn't allow for grace. Only judgment or retribution.


That does not mean you're now above the law and can speed whenever you want because God gives you grace!

Now the Law of "Moses" says that you are to attach fringes to your garments so that any who may look upon them may be reminded of the law of God.
God Him self gave that Commandment, it wasn't just added on the whim of Moses!Huh?

[/quote]
Read Deuteronomy from Chapter 12 on down to Chapter 28 is ALL spoken by God.

In conclusion you see here in Chapter 29

Deu 29:1 These are the words of the covenant that the LORD commanded Moses to make with the people of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant that he had made with them at Horeb.

All this came AFTER they had been at Mt Sinai you see this Law as irrevelant because the people prooved to be stiffnecked, i on the other hand see tese Laws as an extension of the two greatest, of which the ten are en extension.

I see it like this: 2 = 10 = 613 they all are relevant.[/quote]Relevant for what Tanja? Read that Ezekiel 20 passage carefully. I'm sure I know the excuse you will give what that ain't talking about the Law but maybe you'll surprise me and not quote the standard fare line on that.




Here's some further instruction given directly at Mt Sinai:

Lev 25:1 The LORD spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai, saying,
Lev 25:2 "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When you come into the land that I give you, the land shall keep a Sabbath to the LORD.
Lev 25:3 For six years you shall sow your field, and for six years you shall prune your vineyard and gather in its fruits,
Lev 25:4 but in the seventh year there shall be a Sabbath of solemn rest for the land, a Sabbath to the LORD. You shall not sow your field or prune your vineyard.
Lev 25:5 You shall not reap what grows of itself in your harvest, or gather the grapes of your undressed vine. It shall be a year of solemn rest for the land.

So is this too the Law of Moses to you?

Perhaps you would say it isn't relevant anymore for today, because we know how to fertilize crops and so we don't need to go by the 7 year rule.... and so on blah blah blah.Don't farm so not relevant to me at all. But nevertheless... again... if a Gentile wants to plant on year seven... plant. You aren't under that Law. ;)


This is your choice, just as it is mine! I personally look to all that God has said and consider the wisdom behin His words, and see it aplenty. I believe it is not bad at all to do any of this, because it is something caring and loving people would do anyways. Right... and those that don't aren't caring and loving people.



That is, if we didn't live in such a corrupted world who has skewed the truth to smithereens and many don't even have an idea how far the trtuh has been skewed.

Who today would think to let their land lay fallow on the 7th year to give it a break?

Just because we know how to enrich the sopil and add fertilizer doesn't mean it is now as good and perfect as God's Law!

Since when has selfish man ever come up with anything that turned out as good as it did when one followed God's Law?If they'd of followed God's Law Tanja... they'd of not wondered for all those years in the desert in the first place. Thousands wouldn't have died at a time... they'd of went into the land of milk and honey without much a fuss at all. Instead... they hardened their hearts and murmured against God. That gave an awful lot of time to make up a whole bunch of rules that none of them could live by. ;)



The scriptures speak to this over and over again, not to lean onto our own understanding!

Shalom,
Tanja




There are many more that God commanded, and many consider to be the law of Moses.Sure... they couldn't follow ten... surely can't follow 613... so may as well stack on some more! ;)

ProjectPeter
Apr 6th 2008, 07:14 PM
You make it sound like punishment. Oh well, we all have our calling and I'm not here to second guess what God is or is not doing in other believers hearts. todd
It was punishment for their disobedience. Ezekiel 20 makes that perfectly clear for those that can see it.

ProjectPeter
Apr 6th 2008, 07:16 PM
I disagree that the law only and simply was just to point out sin in man. This scenario only applies to one who does not have a circumcised heart. In such a case the law condemns.

The Law is not a burden, and with Yeshua's help it can be lived up to. Granted we won't be perfect til He comes back to make us new.

Take the example of cain and Abel. Outwardly both did bring sacrifices and gave the best of what they had. However, obviously Cain did not have it in His heart to please God, as God admonished him with these words:

Gen 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it."
And to this day this is no different than it is from Cain.

This is the very reason God accepted Abel's offering but not Cain's.

Perhaps our disagreement also lies in the fact that i believe that while in this life we look to Yeshua for salvation, we are by far yet not perfect, and won't be til he returns. Therefore i believe that we still need a guide.

Shalom,
TanjaWe certainly disagree then. The Law isn't supposed to be your guide although it clearly is. As I said... you live in Romans 7 and you can't move into Romans 8. The only guide you need Tanja is the Spirit of God.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 6th 2008, 07:18 PM
PP,
since you seem to say the law does nothing but give us sin....

Let me ask you this, when you had children, in your home, did you lay down rules for them because you wanted to slave them, or was it because you wanted them to know what was your hearts desire for them to do?

Furthermore, did you lay down the rules ONLY because you wanted them to see how bad and wretched they were?

When God gave all those Laws in the OT at Sinai, at Horeb and Moab, i don't see it the same way you do, rather what i see, is that God went above and beyond trying to nail down every aspect of His desire, and gave them all these Laws because since they couldn't circumcise their hearts, and therefore had no concept of what all LOVE entailed. So He spelled it out for them, and took quite a bit of detail into what He said.

Does that make all of this useless and irrelevant for us today?
I think not, because i see us falling into another age of total depravity which will make everything that was before seem like peaceful times.

People these days are not taught what Love is, or means, and what it means one does when someone loves someone.

The perversion of the word LOVE is rampant. And i can tell you this too, the sinner that turns to God in these days has a LOT of need for tutoring. A LOT of learning to do.
At least i consider myself that way, If you don't. then good for you, i can't judge you in that regard, and neither should you judge me and my needs.

Shalom,
Tanja

valleybldr
Apr 6th 2008, 08:18 PM
It was punishment for their disobedience. Ezekiel 20 makes that perfectly clear for those that can see it.
The Torah given at Sinai was punishment for their disobedience? We are missing each other here. Ezekiel 20 like all the rest of Scripture upholds God's loving instructions to His people. todd

=====================
Eze 20:11 "And I gave them my statutes, and showed them mine ordinances, which if a man do, he shall live in them. :12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am Jehovah that sanctifieth them."

Mograce2U
Apr 6th 2008, 08:28 PM
Failure to keep the sabbath year is what led to the Babylon captivity. If we say are not under the penalty for breaking the law then how can we expect the blessing it contained even though we do not keep it? This is the dilemma such law-keeping ideas present. If the curse is gone because Jesus took it away, then what blessing is to be meted out though some obey and others do not? Should the disobedient expect mildew and catepillars? Not if there is no curse. Yet if it is required, how will they discern if what they are doing is "right" or not?

The law is what made the distinction possible between those who were obedient and those who were not. Without such distinction, the law is an empty vessel, unable to judge and without the power the blessing and curses in it provided. This is why the law faded away, because its power - in the life of those born in Christ - is rendered inoperative. If it can't curse you for not keeping it, neither can it bless you if you do.

The law is for those who do not yet have the promise in order to bring them to Christ. It serves no purpose and has no authority or power over those who have been buried with Christ and quickened to new life in the Spirit. The law works death in those whose sin is ruling their lives. For those whose sin has been forgiven, the Spirit gives life abundantly because only He can do what the law could not - change the heart of the man so that sin will not be his downfall. We need not walk by the law because the Spirit is who guides us into righteousness.

That is the thing the man still under the curse of the law could not know except the law pointed it out to him. This is why Paul says he only knew covetousness because the law said "Do not covet". And it condemned him for it. But the man whose heart has been made generous by the Spirit is no longer greedy and covetous in heart. Rather the thief who stole or the adulterer who cheated - and who has been forgiven, is told to go and sin no more. That can only be possible if he has received a new power and motivation enabling him to do so. Which the law never provided hence the need for its rituals to be repeated over and over.

The law could only work death in the man because of his sin, since unless the man dies he will not cease from sin. But Christ gives new life to the man He forgives so that he can keep himself consecrated and walk according to the new rule which the Spirit brings. At no time are we without law, but we are under a new governing Authority and there is a new power to enforce it. One whose blessings and chastening judges us yet lets us continue to live in His presence and favor.

The holy law of Moses can only work death in the sinner; but Christ's rule works Life in the ones He has made holy and sanctified by the Spirit. Fear of judgment and death worked in the sinner under the law so that he would put his faith and hope in the promise given to Abraham. And yes, David loved the law because he knew the hope of the promise it pointed him to that was yet to come and which hope he held by faith. A promise which Christ delivered - the hope of being raised from the dead. That hope which now works according to love without the fear of death, condemnation and judgment because of sin - the penalty of which the law made known.

So if you are going to walk according to the old covenant directive, then you must submit to the law which no longer has the power to bless since it has lost its power to curse those who are in Christ. Which we know is true because those in Israel who continue to do so are without Christ (the blessing) and yet the death penalty remains upon them. And since their perfection will never be found in keeping the law spotlessly, neither will ours. The end of the law IS Christ. If righteousness did not come to us by way of the law but by Him, then keeping righteous will not come that way either. The law cannot bring righteousness nor life to those who serve it yet it still reveals the penalty of death that came upon all thru Adam. We are not under this penalty if we are in Christ so what benefit can serving the law "in His name" bring us that we do not already have by the Spirit?

The bottom line of this blog is this: Where is the power to live the Christian life to be found? If your answer is under the law then you have chosen the way of death to work out your hope of life in Christ. That makes no sense to me!

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 6th 2008, 08:40 PM
So God instructed Moses to give as a Law something that God didn't intend from the beginning? Jesus, being the Word, as you used the phrase yourself... gave Moses instruction contrary to God?

Matthew 19:7 They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY ?"
8 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart, Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.
9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Notice Jesus didn't say here that God allowed you to divorce. He laid that squarely where it was intended to be laid. Moses allowed it.

Well look at what you posted: Even God allows Divorce under certain circumstances.
No, it wasn't intended to be so from the beginning. But God allowed it, and so did Moses. However, as can plainly be seen that people abused what Moses allowed and historically speaking a many men started to put their wives aside for many reasons other than those that Yeshua allowed.

I see no problem here at all.

Shalom,
Tanja

valleybldr
Apr 6th 2008, 09:26 PM
Failure to keep the sabbath year is what led to the Babylon captivity. It was failure to keep the Sabbath day not the Shamita (7th year land rest). todd

ProjectPeter
Apr 6th 2008, 09:34 PM
Well look at what you posted: Even God allows Divorce under certain circumstances.
No, it wasn't intended to be so from the beginning. But God allowed it, and so did Moses. However, as can plainly be seen that people abused what Moses allowed and historically speaking a many men started to put their wives aside for many reasons other than those that Yeshua allowed.

I see no problem here at all.

Shalom,
TanjaUh... God allows it for one reason and that is adultery. That is the only circumstance... there are no "certain circumstances".

And no. Jesus doesn't say that God allowed it. Are you trying to say that when Jesus said Moses allowed you to divorce... Jesus really did mean to say Moses and God allowed you to divorce but God really wasn't all that keen about the plan?

Moses allowed it Tanja because their hearts were already hard. It wasn't something that Moses wrote and they started to abuse it later because their heart got hard. Jesus said that is why he allowed it in the first place. Stick with what is actually written and you'd be served many times better! You view, while you might not see it as a problem, is problematic... because you are having to add to what is written here... take away what is written there... and there ya go! Doctrine.

ProjectPeter
Apr 6th 2008, 09:38 PM
PP,
since you seem to say the law does nothing but give us sin....

Let me ask you this, when you had children, in your home, did you lay down rules for them because you wanted to slave them, or was it because you wanted them to know what was your hearts desire for them to do?

Furthermore, did you lay down the rules ONLY because you wanted them to see how bad and wretched they were?

When God gave all those Laws in the OT at Sinai, at Horeb and Moab, i don't see it the same way you do, rather what i see, is that God went above and beyond trying to nail down every aspect of His desire, and gave them all these Laws because since they couldn't circumcise their hearts, and therefore had no concept of what all LOVE entailed. So He spelled it out for them, and took quite a bit of detail into what He said.

Does that make all of this useless and irrelevant for us today?
I think not, because i see us falling into another age of total depravity which will make everything that was before seem like peaceful times.

People these days are not taught what Love is, or means, and what it means one does when someone loves someone.

The perversion of the word LOVE is rampant. And i can tell you this too, the sinner that turns to God in these days has a LOT of need for tutoring. A LOT of learning to do.
At least i consider myself that way, If you don't. then good for you, i can't judge you in that regard, and neither should you judge me and my needs.

Shalom,
TanjaAnd again Tanja... with the Spirit of God... you don't need the Law as a tutor. Are you just totally missing that point in Scripture?

Also Tanja... discuss that passage in Ezekiel... tell me how it is wrong because you can tell me what you think all day long... you aren't responding to much of what Scripture actually says.

ProjectPeter
Apr 6th 2008, 09:39 PM
The Torah given at Sinai was punishment for their disobedience? We are missing each other here. Ezekiel 20 like all the rest of Scripture upholds God's loving instructions to His people. todd

=====================
Eze 20:11 "And I gave them my statutes, and showed them mine ordinances, which if a man do, he shall live in them. :12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am Jehovah that sanctifieth them." Apparently you didn't read Ezekiel 20 or the post I made a bit ago to Tanja about that passage? Perhaps you could actually discuss that one?

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 6th 2008, 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by valleybldr View Post
You make it sound like punishment. Oh well, we all have our calling and I'm not here to second guess what God is or is not doing in other believers hearts. toddIt was punishment for their disobedience. Ezekiel 20 makes that perfectly clear for those that can see it.

You're missing some important detail PP
You're clearly not making a distinction between the law which is holy and Good, and the requirements attached to the Law that will condemn you if you transgress.

Here God says:
Eze 20:11 I gave them my statutes and made known to them my rules, by which, if a person does them, he shall live.

and again:

Eze 20:18 "And I said to their children in the wilderness, Do not walk in the statutes of your fathers, nor keep their rules, nor defile yourselves with their idols.
Eze 20:19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and be careful to obey my rules,
Eze 20:20 and keep my Sabbaths holy that they may be a sign between me and you, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.
Eze 20:21 But the children rebelled against me. They did not walk in my statutes and were not careful to obey my rules, by which, if a person does them [follow the comandments of God, and live], he shall live; they profaned my Sabbaths. "Then I said I would pour out my wrath upon them and spend my anger against them in the wilderness.

Contrast this with what God says here:

Eze 20:25 Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and rules by which they could not have life,
Eze 20:26 and I defiled them through their very gifts in their offering up all their firstborn, that I might devastate them. I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.

So, is God a liar, does he give Laws to kill? Laws by which if one does them they shall have life? It's both, one aspect of the Law and if you follow it gives life, and the other condemns you and requires punishment if you break it.

So the Law the people rebelled against were the ones that gave life, and the statues that killed people were those requirements of punishment the Laws carry to their condemnation if the Law was transgressed.

So you cannot read this in the way of the Law of God all being bad and destructive.

It hearkens back to what is in people's hearts and the scenario with Cain and Abel:

Gen 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it."

This is still the same today it has not changed. What has changed is that Yeshua offered Himself up so that by His blood we can have mercy if we slipped, when we stand in front of God the day of reckoning and judgment.

Therefore i submit that if your heart is in the right place that following the law is very pleasing to God, and it can and will give you many blessings.


Mograce2U,


Quote:


It may also be the fact that i believe that while in this life we look to Yeshua for salvation, we are by far yet not perfect, and won't be til he returns. Therefore i believe that we still need a guide.
That is why He sent us the Holy Spirit.

Well there are many with the Holy Spirit, yet we still sin!
So where is this perfection you speak of?
It is not yet manifest, because the Ot has not yet completely vanished, it is waxing old however, and will Vanish with the coming of Yeshua when the Bride is ready.

Who here can claim to not be a sinner in the flesh here at all anymore? Sure the blood covers our sins, but that is a term not relative to the present time as we still sin so we are STILL looking forward to when the perfect comes.

For your blog entry, i can only say this is a matter of perspective to me.
I disagree, and you fail to understand because you cannot see it.

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 6th 2008, 09:47 PM
And again Tanja... with the Spirit of God... you don't need the Law as a tutor. Are you just totally missing that point in Scripture?I asked you not to judge me on that, yet you continue to do so.
I'm not missing this in scripture at all, i see things differently, i just do not see things your way, i see things the way God has shown me.


Also Tanja... discuss that passage in Ezekiel... tell me how it is wrong because you can tell me what you think all day long... you aren't responding to much of what Scripture actually says.I have responded in a post previous to this one, about what i see in Ezekiel.

I do not believe i'm missing anything at all. not scripturally speaking anyways, I may not understand everything in scripture, but these things regarding salvation, Law and Grace and obedience etc, are very clear to me.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Apr 6th 2008, 10:22 PM
I asked you not to judge me on that, yet you continue to do so.
I'm not missing this in scripture at all, i see things differently, i just do not see things your way, i see things the way God has shown me.

I have responded in a post previous to this one, about what i see in Ezekiel.

I do not believe i'm missing anything at all. not scripturally speaking anyways, I may not understand everything in scripture, but these things regarding salvation, Law and Grace and obedience etc, are very clear to me.

Shalom,
TanjaYou are a Christian right? Then I have to judge you that way... it isn't about the Law as your tutor Tanja. Again... read Romans 7 and really pay attention as it moves into chapter 8.

ProjectPeter
Apr 6th 2008, 10:27 PM
You're missing some important detail PP
You're clearly not making a distinction between the law which is holy and Good, and the requirements attached to the Law that will condemn you if you transgress.Hang on now... aren't those "attachments that condemn" equally holy and good? Sure they are so what sort of logic is this?



Here God says:
Eze 20:11 I gave them my statutes and made known to them my rules, by which, if a person does them, he shall live.

and again:

Eze 20:18 "And I said to their children in the wilderness, Do not walk in the statutes of your fathers, nor keep their rules, nor defile yourselves with their idols.
Eze 20:19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and be careful to obey my rules,
Eze 20:20 and keep my Sabbaths holy that they may be a sign between me and you, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.
Eze 20:21 But the children rebelled against me. They did not walk in my statutes and were not careful to obey my rules, by which, if a person does them [follow the comandments of God, and live], he shall live; they profaned my Sabbaths. "Then I said I would pour out my wrath upon them and spend my anger against them in the wilderness.

Contrast this with what God says here:

Eze 20:25 Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and rules by which they could not have life,
Eze 20:26 and I defiled them through their very gifts in their offering up all their firstborn, that I might devastate them. I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.

So, is God a liar, does he give Laws to kill? Laws by which if one does them they shall have life? It's both, one aspect of the Law and if you follow it gives life, and the other condemns you and requires punishment if you break it. The Laws didn't give life Tanja. My goodness now... that wasn't their purpose. NEVER was. Following the Law Tanja... it NEVER gave anyone life. Paul followed the Law but he was missing life. The rich young ruler did the things of the law but even he knew... I'm lacking something yet."



So the Law the people rebelled against were the ones that gave life, and the statues that killed people were those requirements of punishment the Laws carry to their condemnation if the Law was transgressed.

So you cannot read this in the way of the Law of God all being bad and destructive.

It hearkens back to what is in people's hearts and the scenario with Cain and Abel:

Gen 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it."

This is still the same today it has not changed. What has changed is that Yeshua offered Himself up so that by His blood we can have mercy if we slipped, when we stand in front of God the day of reckoning and judgment.

Therefore i submit that if your heart is in the right place that following the law is very pleasing to God, and it can and will give you many blessings.


What blessing can that Law give you that is greater than Christ... the fulfillment of the promises to Abraham and the fulfillment of the Law?

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 6th 2008, 10:38 PM
Something else i want to address.... people keep throwing up the presence of the Holy Spirit as if that was enough to abolish the Law, or entirely dismiss the need or present purpose for it.

The Holy Spirit will lead one into all thruth. The Holy Spirit will write the Law into your heart. What makes you think the Law that Holy Spirit writes in your heart is different than all of God's commandments?
That would make either the Holy Spirit or God a liar, the Holy Spirit, the Word/Yeshua and God are ONE. Therefore the Holy Spirit will not teach you something different than everything esle that was already said.

The Holy Spirit has explained to me aspects of the Law that some may or may not understand, The Holy Spirit has used the written Word by brining it to my memory when i was about to sin, and shown me the truth.

The Holy Spirit with the help of the Word has shown me issues i am facing, and has given me suggestions on how to work it out, again with what was written in scripture.

I have woken up with entire sermons in my head waking up to a renewd and expanded understanding of scriptures.

Never was i in doubt on those occations as to what Spirit was speaking to me, because it was backed by scripture.


In the same way, when the Holy Spirit has moved me and given me understanding about a Law, i followed and had a great desire to do so. So it is NEVER of my own doing that i do these things.
I can and have however found myself at times to go contrary what the Holy Spirit has shown me, and this was my flesh winning out to my shame. And God allowed it to happen, because the resulting sin and consequences of my action brought me to my knees. It is quite an experience to experience God in this way.

God took 7 days to create the earth, He could have created it in one day, but He took His time.
In the same way it will take time before i'm as good as God can ever make me through His word.

Do you know what it takes to refine silver?

It's a process that requires much skill and all of your attention.


Malachi 3:3 says: "He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver."

A silversmith explained that in refining silver, one needed to hold the silver in the middle of the fire where the flames were hottest as to burn away all the impurities.

Think about the times when you are in a hot spot in life. You wonder why God allows you to stay there?

The silversmith said that he had to sit and hold the silver in front of the fire all the time, and his eyes had to be on the silver all the time.

If the silver was left a moment too long in the flames, it would be destroyed. But how does the silver smith know when the silver is fully refined?

The silversmith answered is this, "Oh, that's easy - when I see my image in it."

If today you are feeling the heat of the fire, remember that God has His eye on you and will keep watching you until He sees His image in you.

I do not expect to be done immediately, but i expect God to do what it takes to make me into the purest form of silver as there can be.

The Holy Spirit doesn't just turn me into something perfect over night.
IMO it's a life long race.

Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.
Heb 12:4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
Heb 12:5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him.
Heb 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives."
Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?



Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 6th 2008, 11:46 PM
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. verse 25 above speaks to someone knowing better, but still allowing the flesh to win which is transgression of the law which means you're in bondage to sin the Law of sin is the requirements of punishments
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Yesm Yeshua gives my mercy by His blood, and pours out the blood so that the punishment for transgression of the law can be satisfied.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Yes, as a believer i reap the benefits of mercy if i slip and transgress the law
Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
if you walk according to what the Spirit tells you rather than by sinful flesh, then the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us

Look PP, i have no problem with these scriptures. The fact is, you read them differently than i do and your understanding differs.
I'm at peace where i am at, and i have seen the glory of God in my life. I don't need someone to tell me i'm wrong when it comes to this, because God has shown me, and God surely will not show or teach me untruth.
No man taught me any of this. I sat down one day and studied the scriptures, and sola scriptura it was! I asked God to show me and he did. I asked for truth and He gave me truth. I asked Him to reveal Himself to me and he did.






Originally Posted by Jesusinmyheart View Post
You're missing some important detail PP
You're clearly not making a distinction between the law which is holy and Good, and the requirements attached to the Law that will condemn you if you transgress.Hang on now... aren't those "attachments that condemn" equally holy and good? Sure they are so what sort of logic is this?


Did i say that only one was holy? Of course both are Holy, but the fact is only one part condemns and only if one transgresses the Law.



The Laws didn't give life Tanja. My goodness now... that wasn't their purpose. NEVER was. Following the Law Tanja... it NEVER gave anyone life. Paul followed the Law but he was missing life. The rich young ruler did the things of the law but even he knew... I'm lacking something yet."
If the Law doesn't give life to those who follow it then you're calling God a Liar, because He Himself said that those who follow the Law will have life!
Again: If one follows the Law, it gives life, only if it comes from the heart, being written in the heart"
The Law in and of itself doesn't give life, especially not if you're following it without a shred of it being in your heart.

God said: Eze 20:11 I gave them my statutes and made known to them my rules, by which, if a person does them, he shall live.

So, how can this contradiction be resolved of the scriptures talking about Law if follows leading to life and of Law that God gave which were not good?

Simple, the Law has to be in one's heart to give Life!!!
That is what the rich, young ruler who had always observed everything was lacking.
That he was not willing to give up his riches shows that he was not walking in the Spirit, but after the flesh.


What blessing can that Law give you that is greater than Christ... the fulfillment of the promises to Abraham and the fulfillment of the Law?Following the Law gives me peace and satisfaction, it gives me an assurance that the promises of God are for me also.
Again, i make the disclaimer that i am not adhering to the Law in a mechanical, robotic way, but rather the Law first gets written into my heart which then means i have full Belief and i have Faith/action that follows in the flesh.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Apr 7th 2008, 12:04 AM
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. verse 25 above speaks to someone knowing better, but still allowing the flesh to win which is transgression of the law which means you're in bondage to sin the Law of sin is the requirements of punishments
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Yesm Yeshua gives my mercy by His blood, and pours out the blood so that the punishment for transgression of the law can be satisfied.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Yes, as a believer i reap the benefits of mercy if i slip and transgress the law
Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
if you walk according to what the Spirit tells you rather than by sinful flesh, then the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us

Look PP, i have no problem with these scriptures. The fact is, you read them differently than i do and your understanding differs.
I'm at peace where i am at, and i have seen the glory of God in my life. I don't need someone to tell me i'm wrong when it comes to this, because God has shown me, and God surely will not show or teach me untruth.
No man taught me any of this. I sat down one day and studied the scriptures, and sola scriptura it was! I asked God to show me and he did. I asked for truth and He gave me truth. I asked Him to reveal Himself to me and he did.





Did i say that only one was holy? Of course both are Holy, but the fact is only one part condemns and only if one transgresses the Law.



If the Law doesn't give life than you're calling God a Liar, because He Himself said the law gives life!
So, how can this contradiction be resolved? Simple, the Law has to be in one's heart to give Life!!!
That is what the rich, young ruler who had always observed everything was lacking.



Following the Law gives me peace and satisfaction, it gives me an assurance that the promises of God are for me also.
Again, i make the disclaimer that i am not adhering to the Law in a mechanical robotic way, but rather the Law first gets written into my heart which then means i have full Belief and i have Faith/actiopn that follows in the flesh.

Shalom,
Tanja
The only thing I feel compelled to respond to now is the law giving life comment. The rest your eyes won't see. But the Law didn't give life Tanja. Obey and live is not the Law giving life. That right there is where things are horribly broken in this doctrine that you follow.

On an official note... I have probably let this go on further than I should have. But this stops now because honestly it is getting into the area of another gospel when I start reading that the Law gives life to those that follow it.

valleybldr
Apr 7th 2008, 12:34 AM
Eze 20:25 "Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and ordinances whereby they should not live; :26 and I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they set apart all that openeth the womb, that I might destroy them, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD."

Translations differ (probably, in part, because it appears a direct contradiction of an earlier verse) but "context, context, context." The NIV and a number of other translations word it "I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by;" It is not "the law" that is not good but the system of statutes they created for themselves. See verse 18.

todd

***********
10 Therefore I led them out of Egypt and brought them into the desert. 11 I gave them my decrees and made known to them my laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. 12 Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the LORD made them holy.

13 " 'Yet the people of Israel rebelled against me in the desert. They did not follow my decrees but rejected my laws—although the man who obeys them will live by them—and they utterly desecrated my Sabbaths. So I said I would pour out my wrath on them and destroy them in the desert. 14 But for the sake of my name I did what would keep it from being profaned in the eyes of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out. 15 Also with uplifted hand I swore to them in the desert that I would not bring them into the land I had given them—a land flowing with milk and honey, most beautiful of all lands- 16 because they rejected my laws and did not follow my decrees and desecrated my Sabbaths. For their hearts were devoted to their idols. 17 Yet I looked on them with pity and did not destroy them or put an end to them in the desert. 18 I said to their children in the desert, "Do not follow the statutes of your fathers or keep their laws or defile yourselves with their idols. 19 I am the LORD your God; follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 20 Keep my Sabbaths holy, that they may be a sign between us. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God." 21 " 'But the children rebelled against me: They did not follow my decrees, they were not careful to keep my laws—although the man who obeys them will live by them—and they desecrated my Sabbaths. So I said I would pour out my wrath on them and spend my anger against them in the desert. 22 But I withheld my hand, and for the sake of my name I did what would keep it from being profaned in the eyes of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out. 23 Also with uplifted hand I swore to them in the desert that I would disperse them among the nations and scatter them through the countries, 24 because they had not obeyed my laws but had rejected my decrees and desecrated my Sabbaths, and their eyes lusted after their fathers' idols. 25 I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by; 26 I let them become defiled through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn —that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD.'

VerticalReality
Apr 7th 2008, 02:06 AM
So Yes, the Word=Yeshua is my Tutor!!!

Okay, so this comment really left me scratching my noggin . . .

So, according to your reasoning here, Jesus = Word = Tutor . . . right?



Galatians 3:25
But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.


So are you saying that going by Paul's statement here using your logic of Jesus = Word = Tutor you are no longer under Jesus?

If Jesus is the tutor as you claim, then you also claim that Paul is saying we are no longer under Jesus . . .

I mean really . . . I don't get that whatsoever.

:o

Mograce2U
Apr 7th 2008, 05:01 AM
Ezekiel 20 is talking about how the people were expected to follow the law if they were to be able to live in the presence of God. It is talking about temporal life not eternal life. And I know that because a few verses later, he mentions other laws which were given them by which they would not be able to live. In other words, disobedience to the first would bring the assurance of their disobedience to the 2nd. All this so that God would be just in pouring out His fury upon them. The giving of eternal life did not come until Christ. That provision was not in the Mosaic law at all. How to avoid judgment and early death was however the subject of the Mosaic law. God is not basing His judgment of us on that basis anymore. The only thing that counts for eternal life is if you have put your faith in Jesus. To add anything else is to leave the Gentiles up a creek without a paddle.

valleybldr
Apr 7th 2008, 11:13 AM
To add anything else is to leave the Gentiles up a creek without a paddle. As a kayaker, "been there done that." Glad someone (the Jews and their King) brought an extra paddle for my kind. todd

ProjectPeter
Apr 7th 2008, 12:29 PM
Eze 20:25 "Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and ordinances whereby they should not live; :26 and I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they set apart all that openeth the womb, that I might destroy them, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD."

Translations differ (probably, in part, because it appears a direct contradiction of an earlier verse) but "context, context, context." The NIV and a number of other translations word it "I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by;" It is not "the law" that is not good but the system of statutes they created for themselves. See verse 18.

todd

***********
10 Therefore I led them out of Egypt and brought them into the desert. 11 I gave them my decrees and made known to them my laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. 12 Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the LORD made them holy.

13 " 'Yet the people of Israel rebelled against me in the desert. They did not follow my decrees but rejected my laws—although the man who obeys them will live by them—and they utterly desecrated my Sabbaths. So I said I would pour out my wrath on them and destroy them in the desert. 14 But for the sake of my name I did what would keep it from being profaned in the eyes of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out. 15 Also with uplifted hand I swore to them in the desert that I would not bring them into the land I had given them—a land flowing with milk and honey, most beautiful of all lands- 16 because they rejected my laws and did not follow my decrees and desecrated my Sabbaths. For their hearts were devoted to their idols. 17 Yet I looked on them with pity and did not destroy them or put an end to them in the desert. 18 I said to their children in the desert, "Do not follow the statutes of your fathers or keep their laws or defile yourselves with their idols. 19 I am the LORD your God; follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 20 Keep my Sabbaths holy, that they may be a sign between us. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God." 21 " 'But the children rebelled against me: They did not follow my decrees, they were not careful to keep my laws—although the man who obeys them will live by them—and they desecrated my Sabbaths. So I said I would pour out my wrath on them and spend my anger against them in the desert. 22 But I withheld my hand, and for the sake of my name I did what would keep it from being profaned in the eyes of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out. 23 Also with uplifted hand I swore to them in the desert that I would disperse them among the nations and scatter them through the countries, 24 because they had not obeyed my laws but had rejected my decrees and desecrated my Sabbaths, and their eyes lusted after their fathers' idols. 25 I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by; 26 I let them become defiled through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn —that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD.'
Point being... God gave them... God gave them over. It is the same if nothing but by proxy.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 7th 2008, 01:13 PM
I just want to say that at the request of Project Peter i've been asked to step out of these type of threads, and out of respect i will stay out until i get the go ahead again.

You know that there's lots i'd love to say about what you posted, but for the time being i shall refrain :lol:

I just wanted you to know so that you know i'm not blowing your responses off and have vanished into thin air. :)

Shalom,
Tanja

valleybldr
Apr 7th 2008, 02:36 PM
Point being... God gave them... God gave them over. It is the same if nothing but by proxy. Sorry, I thought you were implying that the passage was in reference to God's commands to them. Maybe, I will have time later to read through this thread more carefully. todd

valleybldr
Apr 7th 2008, 02:40 PM
You know that there's lots i'd love to say about what you posted, but for the time being i shall refrain :lol:

Self-control is not easy. I always try to stay cognizant of who's turf I'm on and act accordingly. todd

drew
Apr 7th 2008, 03:57 PM
I don't see ANYTHING in Romans Chapter 5 or 7 that would speak of sin being accumulated in Israel to have it be transfered onto Yeshua. Even if that should have been part of the plan, i don't see it in those scriptures at all.
Hello Tanja:

The theory that God has used Israel as the place where the sin of the world is accumulated is not explicitly spelled out in any individual scriptures. However, I think it there "under the surface" and has great explanatory power - it makes sense of so much in the long tale of redemption presented in the Scriptures:

However, this concept, I suggest, is strongly hinted at in Romans 5:20

The law was added so that the trespass might increase.

The "so that" suggests divine intent. God gives the law to Israel with the specific intent that it will cause sin to increase in her. Why would God do that? Well, the theory that I am putting forth (and the idea does not originate with me - I should be so bright) provides a very good explanation - namely that God is doing something like "luring an enemy out of hiding" so that it will then be vulnerable to "attack". And, loosely speaking, I think that God is doing the following: He is causing sin, which I think Paul sees as a real force in the world (not a vague concept), to be lured into a corner - the nation of Israel. Once "cornered" in Israel, the power of sin is transferred to Jesus and vents its fury against his sinless nature, thereby becoming spent and broken in the process.

This idea makes sense of many other themes in the Scriptures, not least of which the idea that God will use Israel to bless the nations of the world. The Jews probably thought they would bless the world by showing them how to live under God's Law. But Paul, I claim, argues otherwise. And it is not a message the Jews will want to hear. Paul knows that Israel cannot bless the world in this way precisely because, like the rest of us, she is in Adam.

Instead, God uses Israel as the "bait" to lure sin out of hiding before it is finally dealt with by her truly representative Messiah, Jesus. The destiny of Israel to bless the nationa is borne by Jesus. Yet since Jesus is truly Israel's representative, God has, surprisingly and ingeniously, been true to his covenant promise of long ago - God has used Israel to bless the nations of the world. There are echoes of this in Romans 11, but that is for a later post.

Consider the following material from Romans 7:

For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful

Paul is amplifying on 5:20 and speaking of himself as a "representative of Israel". I can defend this idea that Paul is really talking about the nation of Israel here and not himself as a person. But, to keep things brief, I will not do so in this post.

Paul is suggesting that God gave the Torah "in order that" or "so that" - suggestive of intent - sin might be brought out into the open and amplified to its fully height. This is entirely consistent with the notion I am defending. This is done to "trick" sin into the flesh of Jesus where sin is condemned. Note that in Romans 8 (first few verses), Paul makes it clear that it is sin, not Jesus, who is condemned. I suggest that God is doing something much more "physical" and less "abstract" than we generally think.

He has literally lured the power of sin into the flesh of Jesus and allowed it to "burn itself out" by attacking Jesus. And Israel has played the role of the "lure".

PS: I will see if I can unlock the PM feature - I never intended to lock it.

lucasipro
Apr 7th 2008, 04:37 PM
Judged according to thy works...... Absolutely you are. We are commanded many things through out the scriptures, 1st of all having faith in God, and in His son Jesus Christ. The definition of Faith reads:
1.confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability. 2.belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact. 3.belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims. 4.belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty. 5.a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith. 6.the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith. 7.the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles. 8.Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved. —Idiom 9.in faith, in truth; indeed: In faith, he is a fine lad.

If you have true faith in christ, you will follow to the best of your ability all the commandments given to you. You will exercise and train yourself to not just know the gospel, but live the gospel. Having true faith doesnt mean you get to pick and choose what commandments and teachings you are going and not going to follow. if you willfully disobey the commandments of the gospel and the teachings of god and jesus chrits, then you are doing it of spite.
Now, the lifeline is the ability to recieve forgiveness of those sins that are made.

Adam and Eve were the first of God’s children to come to Earth. They were created in God’s image, with bodies of flesh and bones. God placed them in the Garden of Eden. Here they did not remember their former existence though they were still able to enjoy God’s presence and could have lived forever.
As Heavenly Father has blessed all of His children with the freedom to choose, Adam and Eve were given agency to make their own choices on the earth. He commanded them not to eat the forbidden fruit, or the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Obeying this commandment meant they could remain in the garden, but they could not progress by experiencing opposition in mortality. They could not know joy because they could not experience sorrow and pain. Thus, as a part of the plan Satan was allowed to tempt Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit and they chose to do so. As a consequence, they were separated from God’s presence physically and spiritually—an event referred to as the Fall. Adam and Eve then became mortal—subject to sin and death—and were unable to return to Heavenly Father without His help. They could now experience disease and all types of suffering. They had moral agency, or the ability to choose between good and evil, which made it possible for them to learn and progress. It also made it possible for them to make wrong choices and to sin. In addition, they could now have children, so the rest of God’s spirit children could come to Earth, obtain physical bodies, and be proven. All this was in accordance with the plan of God. Only in this way could God’s children progress and become like Him.
Heavenly Father then sent angels and the Holy Ghost to teach Adam and Eve the plan of salvation. Central to this plan is the Atonement of Jesus Christ, which enables God’s children to overcome the effects of the Fall and to obtain eternal life by obedience.
We are not responsible for the Fall of Adam and Eve, but we are responsible for our own sins.

You have a divine mission in Heavenly Father’s plan. You came to earth to receive a body and to gain knowledge and experience to help you become more like your Heavenly Father. Specifically, He wants you to learn to control your body, to choose right over wrong, and to walk by faith in Jesus Christ.
Knowing that you could not progress continually if you remained in the pre-mortal world, Heavenly Father sent you to Earth, much as a parent sends a child to school.
Lessons you must learn here in mortality include how to:

Be humble, obedient, and kind.
Love and serve Him and His children.
Devote your life to doing good and helping His other children to follow the example and teachings of Jesus Christ.
Overcome the appetites of the flesh and follow the promptings of the spirit. You make many choices every day. Whatever you choose—good or bad—you also choose, knowingly or not, the consequences of your choices. Lasting happiness and progression come from choosing to do what God wants you to do.
Heavenly Father knew that sometimes you would make incorrect choices, so He provided a way for you to overcome your mistakes and weaknesses through the Atonement of His Son, Jesus Christ. Through Christ’s Atonement you can repent and be forgiven of your poor choices and learn from them.
Many aspects of life bring happiness and some bring sorrow. These experiences help you learn to distinguish between good and evil and to make correct choices. God influences you to do good and to follow Him, while Satan tempts you to ignore God and commit sin. When you choose to follow God and keep His commandments, you grow in wisdom and strength of character. You can experience joy even in times of trial, and you can face life’s challenges with a spirit of peace.
Many people define happiness as possessing things that, of themselves, cannot bring lasting happiness—such as wealth, power, beauty, and fame. From an eternal perspective, true happiness comes from developing attributes such as goodness, love, justice, and mercy. It comes from serving God and others and from preparing to live with your Father in Heaven again. Heavenly Father knows that many things contribute to your happiness—such as work, a healthy lifestyle, friends, family, and personal achievement, and He may choose to bless you with these things. Regardless of what you do or don’t have in this life, however, your deepest, most lasting happiness will come from knowing God’s plan and following it.
Have you ever wondered why God allows all of the suffering in the world? Why it is that even the innocent or those who are trying to do good are subjected to pain, sickness, tragedy, and death? Perhaps even you or your family are experiencing or have experienced severe trials.
God has a plan for your life, and He knows and understands you. As part of that plan, you came to this earth and are subject to natural and physical laws. You are also subject to the consequences of sin and the results of choices made by you and by others, and God will not thwart His children’s ability to choose good or evil. Yet, no matter what happens, you are a child of God and He loves you. He knows everything you go through and wants you to know that your time on this earth is just a small part of your eternal life.
God takes no pleasure in your suffering, but He knows that difficulties, regardless of their cause, can bring His children closer to Him and can make them stronger as they endure faithfully ( Revelation 3:19 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/3/19#19)) . His Son, Jesus Christ, suffered all things. When you turn to Him you can be assured that He understands and can help you through your trials with His love and direction. When you have faith in God and His plan, you can be assured that there is purpose in all that happens to you here on this earth. Coping with calamities can strengthen you and call forth compassion, helping you learn, grow, and serve others. Dealing with adversity is one of the chief ways in which you are tested and tutored in mortality. Our loving Heavenly Father has the ability to compensate us for any injustices we may be called upon to endure in this mortal life. If we endure faithfully he will reward us beyond our ability to comprehend in the life to come.

drew
Apr 7th 2008, 05:46 PM
As I have asserted earlier, I think that Romans 2 does not give us any way to avoid the conclusion that "good works" (I am not talking Torah here!) are the basis on which we receive eternal life.

Just for the sake of the argument, let's suppose that it is indeed true that in Romans 2 all of Paul's statements about future justification by works describe a path to justification that none will successfully take. Let's suppose that Paul was a student in an English class and had submitted the entire book of Romans as an essay. Here is how I suggest that Paul would need to annotate a chunk of Romans 2 to explain to the teacher how the described path to justification will be successfully followed by precisely zero persons :

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. {***I do not really mean what I say here because later in this letter, chapter 3, I am going to write something different - that some will be justified without any reference at all to works, despite what I have just said. So while I have just said that those who persist in doing good will get eternal life, I intend to later say that there are zero persons in that set, but, by contrast, I do mean what I have just said in terms of the "wrath" - that set of person will contain a non-zero number of members. So even though it seems like I am talking about one real judgement with both 'good' and 'bad' verdicts rendered, I intend to communicate that this judgement will actually take place only in respect to the set who will experience wrath} 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile {***Please understand that what I have just written is only true for those who get judgement - I actually intend you to understand that zero persons will receive "glory, honor, and peace"}. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous {***I do not really mean what I am saying here about being declared righteous by the law - I am really talking about a path to justification that cannot be attained. For some reason I am telling you about how you won't be justified}. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

I suggest that this shows how odd and incompetent a communicator Paul would have to be, if his position is that none are justified by works. And, as has been argued elsewhere, people generally misunderstand Romans 3 and then use that misunderstanding to argue that Paul does not mean what he says in Romans 2. If the Romans 3 misunderstanding is fixed, everything works fine.

Romans 3 has been misunderstood as teaching that no one can keep the "law" (properly understood). Instead, Romans 3 says that this is true only until the covenant has been renewed through the death and resurrection of Jesus:

20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

I assert there is a key "time shift" after verse 20. Up to verse is before covenant renewal, verse 21 states that things have dramatically changed. Romans 1 to 4 is a covenant history - there is a timeline. It does not present a static picture.

Owen
Apr 8th 2008, 06:19 AM
Alright, now it is time for me to debate.


Owen,You're comparing apples to Oranges, because while here on earth we learn many things for which we later have no application, God's Law is eternal, and always applicable one way or another. Granted there may be some laws that are temporary out of service due to circumstances, but they are not going to be useless.

Just as the prohibition against driving is out of service due to circumstances. If they child shows themselves to be reckless once they get the license, the parents may decide to bring the rule back into effect.

BTW if laws out of out of service, they are useless. And if there is some application to them but they themselves are not in effect, why can't that be true for the Law as a whole?

And where does the Bible state every law is eternal?


There are several scriptures i will bring up on this topic:

Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
(no one can live out the law 100 % perfect)
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it--
The manifestation was Yeshua& and His death on the cross shedding His blood for our sins;)
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.
(the righteousness ie Mercy, forgiveness of God comes to us through Faith=action for all who believe -this precludes an understanding of God's will)
For there is no distinction:

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
All sin, no matter what believer unbeliever, practicing Jew or Gentile...we all sin and fall short)
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
(it's his grace that justifies us, the redemption coming through Yeshua)
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
(Actions according to Yeshua being a follower)
Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. (IOW no one can attain righteousness by a robotic working out the law)
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Now, does that mean no one should have any works? James states that Faith without works is dead, IOW it proves there's no Faith)


Context is the key:
What Paul means that no one is justified by the works of the Law, is that a robotic adherence to the Law does not make you righteous.
Note though that the above scriptures do not talk about not needing to follow the Law. It just states the fact that justification is not granted by robotic/mechanical works, but by Faith, which comes from a foundation of Belief..

Umm.... To be justified means to be declared righteous. IF by the works of a law someone is not going to be declared righteous, that means performing them doesn't make you righteous. And it says nothing about mechanical/robotic works in the text or context. You have added that to the text.

Look through Galatians. Does Paul get mad at the Galatians because they turned the to Law and was performing them mechanically/robatically? Because there is no talk about how they followed the Law, just that they got circumcised and were seeking justification by the Law. If they were on the right track, why didn't he say "Perform those works of the Law form the heart" or something to that effect. Matter of fact though, he says the ONLY thing that matter was faith working through love. Nothing was included in that sentences about follow the Law.


The key phrase in this whole text is:
"for all who believe."
Belief and Faith are two different things in the scriptures:

Belief is a mental grasp, and understanding taking place, Faith is action, the next step of the things you do once you believe and the understanding has sett;ed in your heart.

They are the same word form in the Greek, just that faith is translated for the word in the noun form and believe is what is translated for the verbal form. They can be used in different ways determined by context, but the verbal or noun form does change to basic idea being convey.


If you don't believe that what God wants you to do, then you will have no Faith (action) Faith is the fruit of obedience to what you believe, and this is the result of walking by the Spirit.

Faith is the end product that shows the fruit of your changed mind and the evidence of your Belief.

Interesting, because in Romans 4:5 Paul says the person who doesn't work but believes, his faith is counted as righteousness. It isn't the fruit of a changed mind initially, but is the heart wanting change (see the parable of the Pharisee and tax collector where the tax collector went home justified without).

A righteous man LIVES by faith. His righteous works is derived from his trust in God, not from the Law. Faith/trust comes first then the change because of the Holy Spirit working through our trust.

valleybldr
Apr 8th 2008, 12:26 PM
God gave them ALL of those various laws because they were disobedient to the few He gave them and God was angry with them. Furthermore... God knew they couldn't keep all of those laws when they were given. That was the price they paid for their stubborn and hard hearts.

Ezekiel 20

1 Now it came about in the seventh year, in the fifth month, on the tenth of the month, that certain of the elders of Israel came to inquire of the LORD, and sat before me.
2 And the word of the LORD came to me saying,
3 "Son of man, speak to the elders of Israel, and say to them, `Thus says the Lord GOD, "Do you come to inquire of Me? As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "I will not be inquired of by you."´
4 "Will you judge them, will you judge them, son of man? Make them know the abominations of their fathers;
5 and say to them, `Thus says the Lord GOD, "On the day when I chose Israel and swore to the descendants of the house of Jacob and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, when I swore to them, saying, I am the LORD your God,
6 on that day I swore to them, to bring them out from the land of Egypt into a land that I had selected for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands.
7 "And I said to them, `Cast away, each of you, the detestable things of his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt; I am the LORD your God.´
8 "But they rebelled against Me and were not willing to listen to Me; they did not cast away the detestable things of their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. ¶Then I resolved to pour out My wrath on them, to accomplish My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.
9 "But I acted for the sake of My name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations among whom they lived, in whose sight I made Myself known to them by bringing them out of the land of Egypt.
10 "So I took them out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness.
11 "And I gave them My statutes and informed them of My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live.
12 "And also I gave them My sabbaths to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.
13 "But the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness. They did not walk in My statutes, and they rejected My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live; and My sabbaths they greatly profaned. Then I resolved to pour out My wrath on them in the wilderness, to annihilate them.
14 "But I acted for the sake of My name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations, before whose sight I had brought them out.
15 "And also I swore to them in the wilderness that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands,
16 because they rejected My ordinances, and as for My statutes, they did not walk in them; they even profaned My sabbaths, for their heart continually went after their idols.
17 "Yet My eye spared them rather than destroying them, and I did not cause their annihilation in the wilderness.
18 ¶"And I said to their children in the wilderness, `Do not walk in the statutes of your fathers, or keep their ordinances, or defile yourselves with their idols.
19 `I am the LORD your God; walk in My statutes, and keep My ordinances, and observe them.
20 `And sanctify My sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.´
21 "But the children rebelled against Me; they did not walk in My statutes, nor were they careful to observe My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live; they profaned My sabbaths. So I resolved to pour out My wrath on them, to accomplish My anger against them in the wilderness.
22 "But I withdrew My hand and acted for the sake of My name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out.
23 "Also I swore to them in the wilderness that I would scatter them among the nations and disperse them among the lands,
24 because they had not observed My ordinances, but had rejected My statutes, and had profaned My sabbaths, and their eyes were on the idols of their fathers.
25 "And I also gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live;
26 and I pronounced them unclean because of their gifts, in that they caused all their first-born to pass through the fire so that I might make them desolate, in order that they might know that I am the LORD."´


Their disobedience brought this on Tanja. Not to all of those ordinances and statutes... their disobedience to simple things that God asked of them.



PP,

Eze 20 is dealing with idolatry. The divine "statutes and judgements" spell out in more detail how to keep the Ten Commandments. Eze 20:25 is not in reference to the any divine law but as per vs 18 the laws they came up that faciltitated their idolatry. Idolatry was a continual problem for the chosen people and we can see from this passage that they had their decrees to enable these detestable practices. Are we in agreement on that? So how does this passage impact your view of divine law? I seem to be missing your point and may need it spelled out more clearly.

thanks for your patience,

todd

ProjectPeter
Apr 8th 2008, 01:04 PM
PP,

Eze 20 is dealing with idolatry. The divine "statutes and judgements" spell out in more detail how to keep the Ten Commandments. Eze 20:25 is not in reference to the any divine law but as per vs 18 the laws they came up that faciltitated their idolatry. Idolatry was a continual problem for the chosen people and we can see from this passage that they had their decrees to enable these detestable practices. Are we in agreement on that? So how does this passage impact your view of divine law? I seem to be missing your point and may need it spelled out more clearly.

thanks for your patience,

todd
Actually it wasn't just idolatry. He mentions their rejection of his statutes... profaning the Sabbath and idolatry.

As to the divine statutes spelling out in greater detail how to keep the Ten... no way. Many of those ordinances had nothing at all to do with keeping the Ten Commandments. Example you wool and linen clothing... what has that to do with any of the Ten Commandments and how to better keep them?

The point of that passage is that God allowed these Law or gave them these Law (pick which translation suits you) and God knew they couldn't keep all this stuff. The kick in the proverbial fanny is that God started out with simply giving them ten. Of those Ten one can easily see the summed up conclusion that Christ gave us... Love God with all your heart, soul and mind... and of equal importance, love your neighbor as yourself. You get into the 600 plus (not to mention all the oral stuff) and that long gets lost.

valleybldr
Apr 8th 2008, 02:32 PM
Actually it wasn't just idolatry. He mentions their rejection of his statutes... profaning the Sabbath and idolatry.

As to the divine statutes spelling out in greater detail how to keep the Ten... no way. Many of those ordinances had nothing at all to do with keeping the Ten Commandments. Example you wool and linen clothing... what has that to do with any of the Ten Commandments and how to better keep them?

The point of that passage is that God allowed these Law or gave them these Law (pick which translation suits you) and God knew they couldn't keep all this stuff. The kick in the proverbial fanny is that God started out with simply giving them ten. Of those Ten one can easily see the summed up conclusion that Christ gave us... Love God with all your heart, soul and mind... and of equal importance, love your neighbor as yourself. You get into the 600 plus (not to mention all the oral stuff) and that long gets lost. So, you think vs 18 is dealing with divine law. No way. BTW the wool and linen mix command deals with the first commandment. Study it out. David did and and loved what he found.

You have God "setting them up" for failure from the "get go." Maybe that's true. Do you have any other Scriptures you think illustrate this perspective?

todd

ProjectPeter
Apr 8th 2008, 02:52 PM
Read the Old Testament period... especially the prophets. This was not something that was a great mystery. They pretty much made God quite angry... no other way to put it. This was not something God just did now and again. It was chastisement... yet they continued to rebel anyway.

And yes way... it is dealing with that 613 laws called the mitzvahs. No doubt in my mind. Read Romans 7... Paul clearly understood the futility of the whole thing.

valleybldr
Apr 8th 2008, 04:28 PM
Read the Old Testament period... especially the prophets. This was not something that was a great mystery. They pretty much made God quite angry... no other way to put it. This was not something God just did now and again. It was chastisement... yet they continued to rebel anyway.

And yes way... it is dealing with that 613 laws called the mitzvahs. No doubt in my mind. Read Romans 7... Paul clearly understood the futility of the whole thing. Then the text is contradictory. Your reading your theology into it when the text speaks for itself. todd

ProjectPeter
Apr 8th 2008, 05:04 PM
Then the text is contradictory. Your reading your theology into it when the text speaks for itself. todd
No... you are not reading it at all. Did God give them ordinances and statutes that they COULD not follow?

valleybldr
Apr 8th 2008, 05:31 PM
No... you are not reading it at all. Did God give them ordinances and statutes that they COULD not follow? Depends on degree. One can't keep anything divine too well if one does not have the Holy Spirit to enable them. That's why the covenant needed to be renewed. todd

ProjectPeter
Apr 8th 2008, 08:05 PM
Depends on degree. One can't keep anything divine too well if one does not have the Holy Spirit to enable them. That's why the covenant needed to be renewed. todd
Even those with the Holy Spirit struggled with it. And we're not giving the Holy Spirit so that we can better follow the Law of Moses. You'll not find that anywhere in Scripture.

valleybldr
Apr 9th 2008, 12:16 AM
Even those with the Holy Spirit struggled with it. And we're not giving the Holy Spirit so that we can better follow the Law of Moses. You'll not find that anywhere in Scripture.
"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jer. 31-34)

ProjectPeter
Apr 9th 2008, 01:12 AM
Okay... and as I have stated... The Law of Moses and God's Law are different sets of Laws.

valleybldr
Apr 9th 2008, 01:16 AM
Okay... and as I have stated... The Law of Moses and God's Law are different sets of Laws. What are you going to do with the numerous prophecies where the "Law of Moses" is being kept in the Messianic Kingdom. todd

ProjectPeter
Apr 9th 2008, 01:20 AM
Not usually a problem... post them as you feel the desire. Eschatology is getting a little off track for this forum but hey... I'll exercise Admin privilege on it. ;)

valleybldr
Apr 9th 2008, 01:26 AM
Not usually a problem... post them as you feel the desire. Eschatology is getting a little off track for this forum but hey... I'll exercise Admin privilege on it. ;) Try Ezekiel 45 and Zech 14 where Pesach and Succot are being kept. todd

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 9th 2008, 07:28 PM
Self-control is not easy. I always try to stay cognizant of who's turf I'm on and act accordingly. toddTrue, but i can manage. :hug:

I was trying to pm you to ask you a question, and found that you do not have the Private Message feature enabled.

Shalom,
Tanja

PastorCal
Apr 9th 2008, 08:23 PM
How can you separate the laws of moses from the laws of God.
God wrote those laws. They are representative of His nature. To try to say we don't need to respect, consider, acknowledge or seek to incorporate where appropriate anything that may be pleasing to God is assinine.
It isn't relative to salvation. It is relavant to sanctification.
If i say i love God and this is the great commandment. Jesus reitereated it because it is apart of the Mosaic Law, then i will seek to please God and reflect His nature. No that doesn't mean i sacrifice pigeons, or attend Saturday Temple, or buy slaves, or keep my cotton and rayon separated. But it does mean i begin to separate myself from what is unclean. The bible says in the NT to come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing. Again it does not mean don't be apart of civilization or have acquaintances that are unsaved etc...it is saying in matters of personal habit, conviction and practice seek to manifest the Christ life by choosing what is good and eschewing what is evil. This is not legalism. This is walking godly in a sinful adulterous age. Its not relavant for the unbeliever. ( am i spelling relevant correct?) We do not judge the world but the House of God. So as a evangelist i would not seek to change a mans behavior...no but his belief. Yes even his nature must change. He must put on Christ and die to self. This will happen when by the convicting power of the Spirit he comes to repentance at the cross. Again not legalism...but commanded by a LORD and Savior. So many want the Savior but despise a living LORD telling them what to do with their mouths, bodies, money and time. Isn't it true?

ProjectPeter
Apr 9th 2008, 10:44 PM
How can you separate the laws of moses from the laws of God.
God wrote those laws. They are representative of His nature. To try to say we don't need to respect, consider, acknowledge or seek to incorporate where appropriate anything that may be pleasing to God is assinine.
It isn't relative to salvation. It is relavant to sanctification.
If i say i love God and this is the great commandment. Jesus reitereated it because it is apart of the Mosaic Law, then i will seek to please God and reflect His nature. No that doesn't mean i sacrifice pigeons, or attend Saturday Temple, or buy slaves, or keep my cotton and rayon separated. But it does mean i begin to separate myself from what is unclean. The bible says in the NT to come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing. Again it does not mean don't be apart of civilization or have acquaintances that are unsaved etc...it is saying in matters of personal habit, conviction and practice seek to manifest the Christ life by choosing what is good and eschewing what is evil. This is not legalism. This is walking godly in a sinful adulterous age. Its not relavant for the unbeliever. ( am i spelling relevant correct?) We do not judge the world but the House of God. So as a evangelist i would not seek to change a mans behavior...no but his belief. Yes even his nature must change. He must put on Christ and die to self. This will happen when by the convicting power of the Spirit he comes to repentance at the cross. Again not legalism...but commanded by a LORD and Savior. So many want the Savior but despise a living LORD telling them what to do with their mouths, bodies, money and time. Isn't it true?

Even Jesus speaks of a difference and notice Jesus didn't call it God's Law or God's Law through Moses.

Matthew 19:3 ¶And some Pharisees came to Him, testing Him, and saying, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause at all?"
4 And He answered and said, "Have you not read, that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,
5 and said, `FOR THIS CAUSE A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND SHALL CLEAVE TO HIS WIFE; AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH´?
6 "Consequently they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
7 They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY ?"
8 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart, Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.
9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Now... why did Jesus not say "God permitted?" Gotta figure there's a big difference. Why would God permit something in His Law contrary to Him hating divorce?

PastorCal
Apr 9th 2008, 11:12 PM
It doesn't say Moses' Law it says Moses Permitted...i don't see the relevance to what my point was. Also it is funny you have that quote from Tozer which encapsulates what we are discussing.

I think you believe i am saying we are converted into Judaism and their customs. Or that i think people should keep the law to be saved.
I am saying neither of those things.
The law cannot save you...although earlier someone said if you kept the two great commandments to love God and man; that you couldn't help but be saved. And those are both out of Deuteronomy.

I am not sure what you hoping to catch me believing that is wrong.
Please qualify where i am in error. Thanks
Much love

ProjectPeter
Apr 9th 2008, 11:54 PM
It doesn't say Moses' Law it says Moses Permitted...i don't see the relevance to what my point was. Also it is funny you have that quote from Tozer which encapsulates what we are discussing.

I think you believe i am saying we are converted into Judaism and their customs. Or that i think people should keep the law to be saved.
I am saying neither of those things.
The law cannot save you...although earlier someone said if you kept the two great commandments to love God and man; that you couldn't help but be saved. And those are both out of Deuteronomy.

I am not sure what you hoping to catch me believing that is wrong.
Please qualify where i am in error. Thanks
Much love
Those are in God's Law... the Ten Commandments. Those commandments were naturally added to the Law of Moses because they were written by God Himself. None of us are free from following those Laws. But we're talking the Law of Moses and yes... they are different. God gave us Ten. Moses gave us 613 written and the Jews have even more with their "oral teaching."

You mentioned some of those 613 laws that we don't have to follow but then say we are to be obedient to that Law. Not sure how it is that you figure that works but let's call it what it is. Picking and choosing. ;) Things such as immorality... we don't need a law to know it is wrong. Folks conscience speaks that loudly enough. That is why hookers come out in the dark and those looking for hookers go looking for them in the dark. They know it is wrong. God punished many for sin in the book of Genesis... well before there was a written law that covered things such as honoring your mom and dad... don't covet... don't murder... don't steal... etc.

And by the way... love God with all your heart, soul and mind is certainly in the writings of Moses. Love your neighbor as you love yourself was commanded as well and as Jesus said... the greatest laws that sum up all others. Now... we could get into the laws of Moses and rest assured that there are many of those laws that really don't have anything to do with loving God or loving your neighbor and heaven forbid we talk about that teaching Jesus gave of loving your enemy as well.

By the way... love your neighbor as yourself is actually in Leviticus. Just thought I'd point that out to you. :) As well... I'm not trying to catch you believing anything. I've learned most folks won't change their mind and some not even if Jesus wrote it on the wall that they were wrong! Especially those who preach already. :lol: Just making my case is all. You are certainly free to do with it what you will.

valleybldr
Apr 10th 2008, 10:42 AM
The point of that passage is that God allowed these Law or gave them these Law (pick which translation suits you) and God knew they couldn't keep all this stuff.
Deu 30:6 And Jehovah thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Deu 30:10 if thou shalt obey the voice of Jehovah thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law; if thou turn unto Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul. :11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off. : 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it? :13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it? :14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. :15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 in that I command thee this day to love Jehovah thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his ordinances, that thou mayest live and multiply, and that Jehovah thy God may bless thee in the land whither thou goest in to possess it." ASV

ProjectPeter
Apr 10th 2008, 12:23 PM
Deu 30:6 And Jehovah thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Deu 30:10 if thou shalt obey the voice of Jehovah thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law; if thou turn unto Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul. :11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off. : 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it? :13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it? :14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. :15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 in that I command thee this day to love Jehovah thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his ordinances, that thou mayest live and multiply, and that Jehovah thy God may bless thee in the land whither thou goest in to possess it." ASV
Galatians 3:11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us -- for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE" --
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 ¶Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it.
16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.
17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made.
20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.
21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
22 But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 ¶But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

valleybldr
Apr 11th 2008, 08:39 AM
Galatians 3:11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." If and when I get time I'll address Paul's teachings re: "the Law." Nothing he said undermines what God said. todd

ProjectPeter
Apr 11th 2008, 10:42 PM
If and when I get time I'll address Paul's teachings re: "the Law." Nothing he said undermines what God said. todd
I figure that should be rather interesting.

2 Peter 2:20
Apr 12th 2008, 12:07 AM
But it does mean i begin to separate myself from what is unclean. The bible says in the NT to come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing. Again it does not mean don't be apart of civilization or have acquaintances that are unsaved etc...it is saying in matters of personal habit, conviction and practice seek to manifest the Christ life by choosing what is good and eschewing what is evil. This is not legalism. This is walking godly in a sinful adulterous age. Its not relavant for the unbeliever. ( am i spelling relevant correct?) We do not judge the world but the House of God. So as a evangelist i would not seek to change a mans behavior...no but his belief. Yes even his nature must change. He must put on Christ and die to self. This will happen when by the convicting power of the Spirit he comes to repentance at the cross. Again not legalism...but commanded by a LORD and Savior. So many want the Savior but despise a living LORD telling them what to do with their mouths, bodies, money and time. Isn't it true?

So what is the unclean thing? Is it not sin? And as a Christian we better purge ourselves of sin but we must be careful to not assign "sin" to objects or items.

2 Cor.6
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. (Chapter 7) 1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

This in blue leads us to believe it is sin. Christ says sin comes from the heart (Mark 7)