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Ta-An
Mar 25th 2008, 06:00 AM
I have been confronted with this phrase : "Remember your loved ones whom have passed away, before the L_rd " this was during a prayer...... and I am uneasy about it..... is it scriptural, is it right, or is it RC belief?? :hmm:

Thanks

Nyoka
Mar 25th 2008, 06:58 AM
I think you were right to feel uneasy with a prayer like that. I have been reading the bible for about 20 years and I don't remember ever seeing this in the bible. I see us being exhorted to pray for sinners, living loved ones, brethren, etc but never to pray for the dead. I believe Catholics do this but I have never found it in the bible.

Duane Morse
Mar 25th 2008, 07:01 AM
The dead are dead.
They have chosen their way, and are set in it.

So then, what good does it do to pray to, or for, the dead?

I can not come up with a scripture that would say otherwise.
And if anyone can, please do.

daughter
Mar 25th 2008, 07:04 AM
Our church prays for the bereaved after a death, not the dead. No point praying for a dead man, after all. Let the dead bury their own dead.

I think it's mainly Catholics who "remember" the dead that way, though it's creeping into other denominations so far as I can tell. I couldn't be comfortable in a church where they prayed that prayer - I think the Holy Spirit makes us feel uncomfortable in such situations.

graceforme
Mar 25th 2008, 10:47 AM
I would leave a church that prayed for the dead. I think the Mormon faith also prays for the dead - just in case they have decided to find the right way. I think they also get baptized for the dead. I haven't been able to find either one in Scripture.

There's nothing that can be done for the dead. Their destiny can't be changed. I pray for the family members who are dealing with the death of a loved one. That they would find strength and increased faith and that God will be glorified.

Have a wonderful, Christ-filled day,
Linda

ProjectPeter
Mar 25th 2008, 02:14 PM
If they are speaking of "praying for them" specifically... then that has the RC smell to it.

John146
Mar 25th 2008, 05:42 PM
I have been confronted with this phrase : "Remember your loved ones whom have passed away, before the L_rd " this was during a prayer...... and I am uneasy about it..... is it scriptural, is it right, or is it RC belief?? :hmm:

Thanks

It is absolutely unbiblical. Read Luke 16:19-31 and you will see that the fate of the dead is already sealed upon death. The rich man wanted to be able to warn his five brothers about the place of torment because he didn't want them to end up there with him but he couldn't. Why did he want to do that? Because he knew there was no more hope once someone is sent there. Today is the day of salvation. Once someone dies it is too late. Scripture is very clear about that.

Frances
Mar 25th 2008, 05:53 PM
No point praying for the dead, their decision has been made - but by all means pray for those they leave behind.

Sherrie
Mar 25th 2008, 06:19 PM
The dead ...did not God say leave the dead to the dead? I would be very uneasy with this prayer, and would not say it. If I am uncertain about things, I would talk to God and tell Him, and His Spirit will teach me.

alwaysgrowing
Mar 26th 2008, 05:56 AM
I've understood the Catholic doctrine of purgatory requires that prayers be said for the person in pergatory, i.e, the dead, so that they may soon be delivered out? Is that maybe what this was pertaining to?



Holly

EarlyCall
Mar 26th 2008, 10:07 AM
There is a verse where Paul mentions some praying for the dead. He does not speak further to the matter. He mentions it in passing.

I imagine this is where the catholic derive their custom. I believe they do so in error. As God said, it is appointed unto man to die and then the judgment.

Paul does not say it is wrong nor does he say it is right. We cannot safely go beyond what he said and claim it is something to do when we are never instructed to do it. Nor can we safely do it when it is clearly in contrast and contrary to the verse I mentioned above. If one is judged when they die, how then would prayer for them make any difference? It would not. But for some, this is not sufficient and they do so anyway.

Ta-An
Mar 26th 2008, 11:13 AM
There is a verse where Paul mentions some praying for the dead. He does not speak further to the matter. He mentions it in passing.
That is the scripture ref I am looking for :)

Teke
Mar 26th 2008, 01:05 PM
Jesus said,
Luk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

The Apostle James persuades us to pray for one another (James 5:16), adding "the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much". The Apostle Paul exhorts us to pray for all men ( 1 Tim. 2:1). John says, especially for sinners (1 John 5:16). "Whether we live or die we are the Lords" (paraphrase Rom. 14:8)

Kahtar
Mar 26th 2008, 01:17 PM
This is probably the verse you're looking for:
1 Corinthians 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Buck shot
Mar 26th 2008, 01:41 PM
I have been confronted with this phrase : "Remember your loved ones whom have passed away, before the L_rd " this was during a prayer...... and I am uneasy about it..... is it scriptural, is it right, or is it RC belief?? :hmm:

Thanks

I don't know of anything to add other than to say Praise God you have His spirit inside to let you know that something is just not right and you are listening to Him :pp

I would guess this makes Him a proud Father when we search out the truth :rolleyes:

EarlyCall
Mar 26th 2008, 10:18 PM
This is probably the verse you're looking for:
1 Corinthians 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

That may be it. Rather than praying for the dead it may be as you say, and instead being baptized for the dead. I think you are probably right.

My apologies to everyone for mistakenly speaking to the verse.

That said, we are not instructed to pray for the dead. We are instructed to pray for the living. The dead are upon death destined to one place or the other and nothing changes that. This is what is meant by appointed once to die and then the judgment. You cannot have true judgment after death if it can be altered with prayer by those living.

Ta-An
Mar 27th 2008, 05:50 PM
You know what EC, we all live and learn :hug:

Pastor Dennis
Mar 28th 2008, 02:28 AM
Anneke - it's been said so well in the replies here to your question.
Run from it! It has an heretical odour....

Ta-An
Mar 28th 2008, 05:13 PM
Anneke - it's been said so well in the replies here to your question.
Run from it! It has an heretical odour....Even from our denomination, ..??

grptinHisHand
Mar 28th 2008, 05:24 PM
Even from our denomination, ..??
I can't possibly think PD means "from your denomination" as you ask. But pray about it and see where God leads you. I don't know how much your denomination is preaching this or other things that are or could mislead you. But God will ALWAYS lead you in paths of righteousness. Just ask Him and He will direct you. I find that the more time I spend in His Word, and in prayer, the better able I am to distinguish what is His will for me. I think relationship with Him works that way for all of us.
May God bless you, lead you and help you to find where He wants to use you for His kingdom work.
g

seamus414
Mar 28th 2008, 06:41 PM
SOme thoughts:

--A Romanist teaching does not, by definition, render it invalid, so do not be alarmed if something "smells" Roman. (note: I am not a Romanist myself)

--Praying for the dead is a perfectly natural thing to do for a loved one. Who else should you express yourself to about your dead loved ones than the Lord? The prayers of a righteous person always have effect. God is outside of time and has heard your prayer long before you prayed it. Praying for someone's soul is always a good idea no matter the person is dead or alive as the Lord honours the prayer of his people. It is a very loving thing to do. We also have no idea what the transition between life and the afterlife is like or of what it precisely consists. So, praying for mercy and love in the passing is good gesture as well.

--Is it in the Bible? Yes: 2 Maccabees, 12:40-46

Pastor Dennis
Mar 29th 2008, 03:16 AM
--Is it in the Bible? Yes: 2 Maccabees, 12:40-46

Not in my Bible.
Maccabees is in the Apocrypha - writings forming part of the RC and Eastern Orthodox deuterocanonical books. But not recognised as Holy Scripture in the canon of Reformed tradition.

Pastor Dennis
Mar 29th 2008, 03:20 AM
Even from our denomination, ..??Yikes, Anneke! From "our" denomination, or from an individual in it? We wouldn't want to go church-bashing on the board so if you'd like to PM me?

nzyr
Mar 29th 2008, 03:56 AM
Some thoughts:

--A Romanist teaching does not, by definition, render it invalid, so do not be alarmed if something "smells" Roman. (note: I am not a Romanist myself)

--Praying for the dead is a perfectly natural thing to do for a loved one. Who else should you express yourself to about your dead loved ones than the Lord? The prayers of a righteous person always have effect. God is outside of time and has heard your prayer long before you prayed it. Praying for someone's soul is always a good idea no matter the person is dead or alive as the Lord honours the prayer of his people. It is a very loving thing to do. We also have no idea what the transition between life and the afterlife is like or of what it precisely consists. So, praying for mercy and love in the passing is good gesture as well.

--Is it in the Bible? Yes: 2 Maccabees, 12:40-46The books of the Maccabees aren't in my bible. And my church taught me that we are not to pray for the dead. Maybe because of this:

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: - Hebrews 9:27

Teke
Mar 30th 2008, 10:14 PM
Not in my Bible.
Maccabees is in the Apocrypha - writings forming part of the RC and Eastern Orthodox deuterocanonical books. But not recognised as Holy Scripture in the canon of Reformed tradition.

I believe you mean that the whole canon of scripture wasn't accepted by the "Reformers". Deuterocanonical means "belonging to the second canon", meaning the canon of scripture the Church decided (before any Reformers), which includes the letters or epistles of the NT.

Canon is like law or guidelines. I'm not saying this to point to any "law" which indicates that the reposed should be prayed for. There is no clear directive on the matter. It is just one of those issues where "all" means different things to different people. ie. scripture says pray for "all" people

BTW, my scriptures include more books than RC or Protestants, as I use the Sept.

amazzin
Mar 30th 2008, 10:18 PM
I have been confronted with this phrase : "Remember your loved ones whom have passed away, before the L_rd " this was during a prayer...... and I am uneasy about it..... is it scriptural, is it right, or is it RC belief?? :hmm:

Thanks

Yes RC and/or Mormon. Praying for the dead is a unless exercise. Their fate is sealed and there is not prayer or intercession or fasting that can change that

Teke
Mar 30th 2008, 10:59 PM
Praying for the dead is a unless exercise. Their fate is sealed and there is not prayer or intercession or fasting that can change that

I agree with this statement. But I would ask, how does one know that those "alive in Christ" are "dead". One wouldn't want to sound contradictory about this. So would a definition be in order, such as "your only alive in Christ as long as others can see with their eyes a living body".
I believe such a statement would contradict what the Lord said.

Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Pastor Dennis
Mar 31st 2008, 02:53 AM
Yes RC and/or Mormon. Praying for the dead is a unless exercise. Their fate is sealed and there is not prayer or intercession or fasting that can change thatThat's it: finis!

Br. Barnabas
Mar 31st 2008, 03:08 AM
I think that I would have to agree with Teke. We do not really know what happens to people after they die. Revelation 20 seems to show that the dead are not judged until the end of the world. So my question would be what is happening to the people after they die and before the judgement?

Scruffy Kid
Mar 31st 2008, 04:37 AM
My loving greetings to all my friends, and to all!!
(And sorry I can't post much these days!)


Why I answer

I am reluctant to comment, but since Anneke has asked about it -- in this thread and, indirectly, in at least one other -- I shall brave the reactions I expect and respond to her question by saying how the Biblical logic of the matter looks to me. After all, if one honestly seeks to set out what the logical implications of clear principles of scripture seem to one to be, surely that is just as well: for even if one is in error, at least then wiser heads may correct one's errors.

If one were simply speaking in the abstract of some practice of prayer -- such as praying for the dead, in general -- then the speculation that such prayer "savors of" some kind of approach to Christian belief that one considers suspect might perhaps weigh more heavily. However, if one is speaking concretely of praying for a much loved person whose salvation is in question (particularly one to whom one has natural and scriptural duties) such vague considerations seem less compelling.


Thinking through a concrete case

I give an actual case, but with names and details changed.

Consider Derrick, an earnest Christian, who much loves his father, Alan, now deceased. Alan, during almost all of his life, did not believe in God. During the last 6 or 8 months of Alan's life, though, Alan was paralyzed by a brain tumor. It was quite clear from his laughter in response to certain remarks, his warm grip and the love that showed in his eyes for his family, and various other signs, that Alan was alert (when not sleepy) and mentally sharp during those last months. But, he was unable to speak, and (for the most part) to move; certainly to write. Thus it was impossible for Derrick to know what was going on with his dad's religious and philosophical thinking as Alan contemplated his death during those last months. Of course, Derrick prayed for his Dad, as well as saying some things to him; and Alan sometimes responded positively when Derrick read the 23rd psalm, and so on.

Derrick's most earnest wish and prayer is that in those months his Dad may have come to a saving knowledge and embrace of Jesus Christ. But he didn't know at the time what was going on in his dad's heart and mind in detail; and he still doesn't know. So of course, his most fervent prayer in those months was that his Dad would, before his death, accept Christ.

Why should he stop praying for that when his Dad dies? I can't think of a reason why he should cease.

Further, his earnest prayers for his dad also help motivate him to pray for all those who do not know Christ.

Some have said that the soul's fate is sealed at the moment of death. Let's assume that this is true. Yet it remains the case that Derrick doesn't know what happened with his dad in those last months. So how his dad responds to God during those months -- and the way that Alan's eternal destiny hinges upon that response -- would still seem to be a matter concerning which Derrick can continue to ask God for His mercy and grace for his dad Alan.

For Derrick does know that God hears our prayers, and that often our prayers are important in God's moving to save another. (Mark 2:1-12, esp. v. 5, are relevant verses here!) And he knows that God knows the end from the beginning, and thus knows what his (Derrick)'s prayers will be before they are spoken. Thus God can in December of 2006, before Alan dies, Derrick believes, work in Alan's life in response to prayers that Derrick prays after Alan's death, in January of 2007 or in February of 2008. Thus Derrick's fondest wish, that his dad be saved, is one that he does not know God to have denied, and this fond wish coincides with his duty to love and honor his parents, as well. Derrick thus regards these prayers not only as permissible, but as a Christian duty -- as well as being what he wishes to do in the reasonable and heartfelt hope that it may help his dad to go on praying for him.

True, God knows what has happened with Alan in December 2006 -- but then God knew that in November 2006, and June 2002, and April 1975, long before Alan fell ill, when Derrick (then, too, not knowing whether his dad would accept Christ) was praying for his dad. So Derrick continues to pray for his dad -- to pray that, before he died, Alan accepted Christ. Why should he not?

The consideration which some have advanced that these prayers appear to some to "savor of" association with a church many of whose doctrines Alan does not adhere to (and some of which he may reject as misguided or heretical) is a rather vague reason, Derrick feels, for abandoning prayer for his beloved dad, whose well-being it is (Derrick thinks) in any case his duty to seek as long as there is doubt as to whether he can help his dad by his prayers. (Prayer is not a kind of magic, or necromancy: it is a request from the heart of believers to God our loving and almighty heavenly Father. If our prayers to God are somehow askew, God can still respond to them in His wisdom and His love.) Scripture does not forbid Derrick to pray that God will move in his dad's life before his dad dies; and does command him to love and honor his family. Therefore Derrick prays, and reckons (as a good solid bible-believing Protestant) that it is not only OK, but actually his duty (as well as what he earnestly wants to do) to do so.

(This proleptic temporal logic is not unusual for Christians, in this sense: when we hear of a train wreck, or mining disaster, or a fire in a building where we know our loved one's were scheduled to be, we often and rightly pray for their safety even though we realize that God's response to our prayer, if it is a response of keeping those we pray for safe, may well require that he heard us and acted prior to the time that we prayed.)


Stating the logic of this example more generally

This is the point Seamus is making in condensed form, I think, when writing that
Praying for the dead is a perfectly natural thing to do for a loved one. Who else should you express yourself to about your dead loved ones than the Lord? The prayers of a righteous person always have effect. God is outside of time and has heard your prayer long before you prayed it. Praying for someone's soul is always a good idea no matter the person is dead or alive as the Lord honours the prayer of his people. It is a very loving thing to do. ... So, praying for mercy and love in the passing is good gesture as well. The logic of the argument I made by means of a concrete example, and which can be made in more general terms (as Seamus seems to have intended), does not even depend on agreeing with Seamus' view that "God is outside of time" (which I do), much less on accepting Seamus's or Teke's view of which books belong in the canon (which I don't). It certainly does not require any kind of adherence to distinctively Roman Catholic (or Eastern Orthodox) belief, and one could comfortably hold the position whose logic is discussed here, it seems to me, while having very negative views of Roman Catholic (or Eastern Orthodox) doctrine, and of the RCC (or EOC), as a whole.

So far as I can see, the view Derrick (and, I guess, Seamus) hold about prayers for the salvation of a loved one whose salvation is in doubt, after that person's death, only requires the views (1) that God knows the end from the beginning, and hears and answers our prayers, and (2) that God asks that we pray for the well-being of our families (and perhaps of other people also). These seem to me very modest assumptions that are well within the mainstream of Protestant belief and Biblical teaching -- in fact, views that are strongly taught by the scriptures.

The Biblical premises from which the logic proceeds, just listed, seem so basic and sound that it is hard for me to see where they may be in error. If one thinks that the conclusion Derrick reaches is awry, then, I suppose that must be because one sees some flaw in the logic just presented. A person can always learn from others' views, and when I have time to return here, I shall read any further comments eagerly. Perhaps others may convince me that the logic just elaborated in this post is erroneous. If not, though, I shall continue to suppose that Derrick does right to continue to pray for Alan.


Hello, and warm greetings in Christ to my friends

I myself probably won't post further on this, though: this is the first time I've been able even to log on in a long while, and I expect I'll continue to be taken up with urgent personal and professional obligations after this. I may not even be able to make it back to the board for weeks.

So my love to all. Those who know my situation, please pray for my family.

YBIC,
Scruff

Ta-An
Mar 31st 2008, 08:45 AM
Thank you to all for your replies.... it causes me to really take look at my faith....
and Thank you Scruff... I pray G_d's blessings upon you, may He lift His countenance upon you and give you His Shalom

Ta-An
Mar 31st 2008, 08:49 AM
I read this from Psalm 102:19 For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth;
20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death;.......21 To declare the name of the LORD in Zion, and his praise in Jerusalem; 22 When the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.

Does this scripture fit here in some way? is verse 21 a pre-requisition for verse 20... what I am asking is : Will the L_rd loose those that are appointed to death, so that theycan / if they will declare His Name in Zion??

Teke
Mar 31st 2008, 12:45 PM
I read this from Psalm 102:19 For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth;
20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death;.......21 To declare the name of the LORD in Zion, and his praise in Jerusalem; 22 When the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.

Does this scripture fit here in some way? is verse 21 a pre-requisition for verse 20... what I am asking is : Will the L_rd loose those that are appointed to death, so that theycan / if they will declare His Name in Zion??


I believe all things are possible with God. Scruffy gave a thought provoking post on the subject.

Your thread title is "remembering the dead in prayer", and I can recall even before I was a Christian, when attending funeral services, that prayers were said for the reposed person. They are best known as "eulogies", "elegies" and "speeches of remembrance". So it would seem in whatever form, prayers are prayed.:)

seamus414
Mar 31st 2008, 02:13 PM
Not in my Bible.
Maccabees is in the Apocrypha - writings forming part of the RC and Eastern Orthodox deuterocanonical books. But not recognised as Holy Scripture in the canon of Reformed tradition.

Actually that is not true. It appeared, and still appears, in the Bibles of those belonging to the church of the English Reformation. It also appears in some Lutheran Bibles. It is also a fact that those books were retained by ALL of the Reformers (Cranmer, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli). Various Protestants did not start removing them until relatively recently.

seamus414
Mar 31st 2008, 02:16 PM
The books of the Maccabees aren't in my bible. And my church taught me that we are not to pray for the dead. Maybe because of this:

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: - Hebrews 9:27

The books of the Maccabees are edifying. Recommended reading. Relative to your verse, how much time does that verse say is between death and judgment? How much does this verse say about prayer for that matter? How much does this verse say about the differences between the particular and general judgment? The answer to each of these is "nothing" therefore the verse, absent some additional data, does not relate to the topic at hand.

seamus414
Mar 31st 2008, 02:21 PM
I think that I would have to agree with Teke. We do not really know what happens to people after they die. Revelation 20 seems to show that the dead are not judged until the end of the world. So my question would be what is happening to the people after they die and before the judgement?

As Blessed C.S. Lewis intimates in his "Great Divorce" they are in the intermediate place. A place about which we have virtually no data; as a result, prayers for people there is appropriate.

Br. Barnabas
Mar 31st 2008, 02:23 PM
Actually that is not true. It appeared, and still appears, in the Bibles of those belonging to the church of the English Reformation. It also appears in some Lutheran Bibles. It is also a fact that those books were retained by ALL of the Reformers (Cranmer, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli). Various Protestants did not start removing them until relatively recently.

Being a member of the Anglican Communion I can tell you that the Deutrocanonical books are still in the Bible that I use. The 39 Articles of Religion states that they can be read so that we may draw from the good example of the people in the stories and the wisdom that the books have. However, no doctrine is to be drawn from them.

I know that the first KJV Bibles all had the Deutrocanonical works in them. Sadly the RSV and NRSV and various Catholic and I would assume Orthodox translations of the Bible translate them now.

seamus414
Mar 31st 2008, 02:26 PM
Uriel: thanks for the post. I am a fellow Anglican. I am glad to see another proud adherant to the reformed catholicism.

Br. Barnabas
Mar 31st 2008, 02:29 PM
As Blessed C.S. Lewis intimates in his "Great Divorce" they are in the intermediate place. A place about which we have virtually no data; as a result, prayers for people there is appropriate.

I know what Lewis says love the "Great Divorce," in fact had a class on Lewis in which we read something like 13 to 15 of his books. The only problem is that he is not a theologian and never claims to be one. But don't worry about me. I have studied the Bible quite a bit to be able to form what I think happens to us after death. However, I cannot state what they are on here because they happen to not fit in with mainstream protestant belief.

One thing that I think that we should also look at if we want to find out more about what happens after death is to look to the OT and the various authors views on She'ol.

seamus414
Mar 31st 2008, 02:38 PM
Uriel: I agree with you but Blessed C.S. Lewis did have a good theological foundation.

I think you should share your thoughts as perhaps it may shed some light on our Protestant Brothers. They may not agree but it may help with their understanding of the issue.

If I had to guess I suspect my own beliefs are similar to your own.

Br. Barnabas
Mar 31st 2008, 03:04 PM
I totally agree that Lewis was a great thinker and did have a good foundation in theology. I would say that my views of the after life are somewhat similar to his.

As I said before they might break the rules of posting on the forum and thus I will reframe from posting them on here. If you really want to know I can send you a PM, just make sure that it is on.