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View Full Version : The First Day: What Do You Do? A Post-trib qustion



third hero
Mar 28th 2008, 01:04 AM
Imagine this:

The Beast has revealed himself. Jerusalem is in bondage, with many casualties. The world now has to choose whether to accept that their Savior is now claiming to be God, or otherwise reject him utterly. Mind you, at this point, a great and costly war has all but depleted most of the world of it's resources of war. And on top of that, the one person that ended the war is the person who is now claiming to be God. The world, according to the Bible, will play along and side with their savior.

Now, you know that the beast is going to attack you and your churches. Your schools and homes will become political targets, mainly because you have chosen to follow Christ, and utterly reject the Beast. You and your children will be subject to assimilation or death.

The question I pose to you is this: What do we, the saints, do? I know that thjose who are captured will have to face death, and that the rest will basically run for their lives and create safehavens in which they can hide from the world governments. But I feel as though this question has not really been asked, and the ideas have not been explored.

I want answers with some real thought and reason behind them, because I believe that we must be prepared, and not just spiritually. There wil be survivors, because Christ foretold that there will be. We also know through Daniel and John that the beast will wage war against the saints. These are facts that a generation of believers will have to face, even if it is not this one, and by no means am I saying that it can not happen in our lifetimes.

So, what say you?

cwb
Mar 28th 2008, 01:20 AM
First thing I would do is change my viewpoint;) and I will make a post here stating that I have changed my viewpoint.

After that I will tell as many people as I can that this person is not God and to accept Jesus Christ and tell them the consequences of taking this man's mark. I will also try to not get captured as it would be possible to stay alive until the rapture. I would also see what I could do to help my fellow believers. Of course I would spend a considerable amount of time in prayer.

danield
Mar 28th 2008, 01:52 AM
I have been thinking about this for a while, and it is hard to prepare fully for what may occur because we do not know exactly how it will occur. I will get to this later, but I listened to an interesting clip on focus on the family this past week. It was the first segment of a three part interview on how a lady who survived the German occupation of Denmark. It was so fascinating because she went in depth on how their entire life was completely turned upside down.

They did everything they could to save the Jews that they knew by hiding them in farms in the country side, and making up false ID’s that did not have the “J” printed on them which would identify them as a Jew. If memory serves me, they fabricated a pastor’s identification markings because they were the only men that were allowed to remain on farms. They had mandated all men to go work in factories in Germany. They distributed as many of these false ID’s as they could but so many still had to be exported to the death camps. They did not know for certain exactly where they were going, but the message was given to the Jew’s to that they had to report to a train station with only one bag. They left their house, their car, their livestock, businesses, everything they owned except one bag and given a one way ticket on a train to you know where.

At one point the Germans realized that they had more Jews in hiding, and they took out full page adds in papers that if the Denmark people helped the Jews they would be persecuted just as a Jew themselves and killed instantly, and that is just what happened to those who were caught. She also went into code phrases they used to try to hide things from the Gestapo, but you never knew who was part of the secret police because many of them were people they known prior to the invasion.

She had a book out and I am going to read it when I get the time, but it just reinforced my thoughts on how I could prepare for something like what is described in the bible. I think it is going to be very difficult especially with the advancement of technologies. Just think how many cameras there are now. We can get a speeding ticket in some cities via mail because you car was detected going to fast on the interstate. When the bible says that no one could buy or sale with out the mark of the beast I take it literally because it can be done easily. And with someone as evil as the anti Christ calling the shots he will be much harder on us Christians than Hitler was to the Jews. I just know we can never loose our faith in Christ even if we have to board a train! We just have to remain strong with the Lord!

God Bless!

third hero
Mar 28th 2008, 01:53 AM
First thing I would do is change my viewpoint;) and I will make a post here stating that I have changed my viewpoint.

After that I will tell as many people as I can that this person is not God and to accept Jesus Christ and tell them the consequences of taking this man's mark. I will also try to not get captured as it would be possible to stay alive until the rapture. I would also see what I could do to help my fellow believers. Of course I would spend a considerable amount of time in prayer.

Nice to see you back, cwb! ANd to be fair, if I amn raptured as you believe, then I would complain about being wrong in heaven.

Now for the response. Your answer typlifies the answers that I would receive concerning this topic, bfor I have said that I would do most of these things myself. I guess I am trying to go deeper.

Let's start with the responses. A good believer would

1. preach the Gospel to all that breathed and warn the people to not believe the rubbish that the man called God is trying to push off on them.

Remeber, in Chapter 13, he will have signs that accompany his proclamation, including but not limited to standing in forbidden places, and killing two prophets that no one else could kill (Rev 11). It will be dificult at best to convince the people around you, let alone an entire town or even a matropolis that you are right and the one that ended the great war is wrong.

That said, it is our duty to spread the Gospel in any and every condition of this earth. We are not to shy away from death to proclaim the truth. This is what Christ did, the disciples before us did, and what we are to do, even if we are doing what is punishable by beheading. So, we all will have to continue with the work that started 2000 years ago.

2.Try to evade capture.

Survival at it most basic step. IN order to continue to spread the Gospel, one must be slippery. So, I'll just agree with that one.

3. (And the root of my OP). Do what we can to help our fellow believers.

This is why I asked the question, because we seriously need to define what w can do to help each other.

Therefore, while we are going to incorporate the first two answers, we seriously need to focus on the third option, because that is where we are seriously weak at. I have suggestions, but verses from the Bible keep causing me to change my mind, and as a result, I am now completely clueless about this third option. It is vital for us to cooperate for our own survival, But how? What can we do? What should we do? I personally need help with this one.

Please feel free to comment. And as cwb has shown us, this is not a question that is limited to post-tribbers, or premils. It is for all of us, because one of our POV's are going to be right, and the rest are going to be wrong, and it would be wise to assume that everyone is right and wrong, and prepare for the possibility of the post-trib scenario to be the correct one.

This is not a debate concerning which witch is which. I am not interested in debating pre verses post, versus amil versus premil. This is meaningless to me now. What matters is that all believer, no matter which camp they fall into, are prepared for anything, including a tyrant who wants nothing more than our faith, or our deaths.

cwb
Mar 28th 2008, 02:29 AM
I have been thinking about this for a while, and it is hard to prepare fully for what may occur because we do not know exactly how it will occur.

That is certainly an excellent point.

cwb
Mar 28th 2008, 02:41 AM
3. (And the root of my OP). Do what we can to help our fellow believers.

This is why I asked the question, because we seriously need to define what w can do to help each other.

Therefore, while we are going to incorporate the first two answers, we seriously need to focus on the third option, because that is where we are seriously weak at. I have suggestions, but verses from the Bible keep causing me to change my mind, and as a result, I am now completely clueless about this third option. It is vital for us to cooperate for our own survival, But how? What can we do? What should we do? I personally need help with this one.



I certainly do not have all the answers to that question. I am not sure how we will get food if we are not able to buy or sell without taking the mark of the beast. Maybe we will have to work for food. Here is a question I ponder though. Thankfully at this point in my life, I do not need any medication to keep me alive physically. However if nobody is allowed to buy without the mark of the beast, there will be some believers who will have life threatening situations without medication. Would it be wrong to rob a drug store to save the lives of fellow believers in such a situation? Also would it be wrong to carry a weapon to protect myself and other believers from those who would try to capture and kill us?

third hero
Mar 28th 2008, 02:57 AM
I certainly do not have all the answers to that question. I am not sure how we will get food if we are not able to buy or sell without taking the mark of the beast. Maybe we will have to work for food. Here is a question I ponder though. Thankfully at this point in my life, I do not need any medication to keep me alive physically. However if nobody is allowed to buy without the mark of the beast, there will be some believers who will have life threatening situations without medication. Would it be wrong to rob a drug store to save the lives of fellow believers in such a situation? Also would it be wrong to carry a weapon to protect myself and other believers from those who would try to capture and kill us?


Now, you see the dilemma that I have been thinking about. There is a plethora of potential UnChristianlike things that we will have to face if/and/or when the beast shows himself.

Consider this.

-The Beast will wage war aginst us.
-We will not be able to live in a house, go to a grocery store, or get anything anywhere without that cursed mark.
-If we do nothing, starvation and sicknes will inevitably overtake us.

Survival ends up being a priority. It will be very difficult, at best, to live and maintain your relationship with Lord Jesus. But more to the point, we will probably have to sin in order to survive. And that's where the problem comes in.

Elders needing medication. Do we just let them die?
Children and families are starving and homeless. Do we let them be?
mobs are overtaking our brethern. Do we do nothing?

What do we do? Our options are limited.

Moreover, there's yet another wrinkle to be ironed out.

Jesus warns us through John that those who gather for cvaptivity will themselves be captured, and those who kill by the sword will also die that way. Then he says that this calls for patience and perserverance of the saints. Here's the scripture in question:

If any man have an ear, let him hear.
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. Rev 13:9-10

Now, my interpretation could be wrong, and I am hoping that I am, but it is that those who gather into captivity, or create safehavens in order to shelter and protect the believers, will themselves become captives. ANd those that fight against the beast would themselves be killed by him.

NOW WHAT?! If we create safehavens, they will be discovered. If we raise up armies to at least defend ourselves, we will be slain, and defeated. It seems hopeless.

I am not the type to throw in the towel before the fight even starts, but I feel as though we seriously need to see what exactly we are facing in the near, or not to near future.... if my POV is correct. Because if what I am seeing is correct, the three and a half years of the Great Tribulation is nothing short of ABSOLUTE HELL, the like which may not have even been seen by the original 11! It's that BAD!

Any ideas?

Sonshine
Mar 28th 2008, 03:23 AM
In this situation we would be at war. Breaking and entering a drugstore for needed medications would be spoils of war. When we look at the OT and all the battles that were fought, in most cases they were allowed to take the spoils. I don't think this would be any different.

cwb
Mar 28th 2008, 03:41 AM
Now, you see the dilemma that I have been thinking about. There is a plethora of potential UnChristianlike things that we will have to face if/and/or when the beast shows himself.

Consider this.

-The Beast will wage war aginst us.
-We will not be able to live in a house, go to a grocery store, or get anything anywhere without that cursed mark.
-If we do nothing, starvation and sicknes will inevitably overtake us.

Survival ends up being a priority. It will be very difficult, at best, to live and maintain your relationship with Lord Jesus. But more to the point, we will probably have to sin in order to survive. And that's where the problem comes in.

Elders needing medication. Do we just let them die?
Children and families are starving and homeless. Do we let them be?
mobs are overtaking our brethern. Do we do nothing?

What do we do? Our options are limited.

Moreover, there's yet another wrinkle to be ironed out.

Jesus warns us through John that those who gather for cvaptivity will themselves be captured, and those who kill by the sword will also die that way. Then he says that this calls for patience and perserverance of the saints. Here's the scripture in question:

If any man have an ear, let him hear.
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. Rev 13:9-10

Now, my interpretation could be wrong, and I am hoping that I am, but it is that those who gather into captivity, or create safehavens in order to shelter and protect the believers, will themselves become captives. ANd those that fight against the beast would themselves be killed by him.

NOW WHAT?! If we create safehavens, they will be discovered. If we raise up armies to at least defend ourselves, we will be slain, and defeated. It seems hopeless.

I am not the type to throw in the towel before the fight even starts, but I feel as though we seriously need to see what exactly we are facing in the near, or not to near future.... if my POV is correct. Because if what I am seeing is correct, the three and a half years of the Great Tribulation is nothing short of ABSOLUTE HELL, the like which may not have even been seen by the original 11! It's that BAD!

Any ideas?

I have never taken that verse in Revelation 13 to mean what you said. I have always taken the "he" in that verse to be speaking about the beast and his army. I have always read that verse to be saying, look the beast may be killing and taking into captivity now but when Christ returns he will be killed and taken into cativity. Therefore the saints should have patience in waiting for the return of the Lord.

cwb
Mar 28th 2008, 03:50 AM
In this situation we would be at war. Breaking and entering a drugstore for needed medications would be spoils of war. When we look at the OT and all the battles that were fought, in most cases they were allowed to take the spoils. I don't think this would be any different.

good point.




Originally Posted by third hero
But more to the point, we will probably have to sin in order to survive. And that's where the problem comes in.



I do not know that God would consider it a sin to get medications from a drug store or food to save yours and other believers lives.

ShirleyFord
Mar 28th 2008, 03:55 AM
God will still be God. He fed Elijah by placing him at a pool of water and he sent birds to him every day to feast on. And when the drought came and the pool dried up, God sent Elijah to a poor widow woman's house for his survival. But she only had enough food for one last meager meal for her and her son.

But God grew the oil in her pots and the meal so that she ran out of pots and had to borrow pots from all over the neighberhood to put it all in. When she had enough to last her the duration of the 3 1/2 years drought, the oil stayed, the Bible says.

The question we should all ask ourselves, Am I willing to be persecuted and even killed rather than compromise and not be persecuted and be allowed to stay alive with plenty to eat, etc.


The three Hebrew children wouldn't compromise in the face of death.

Daniel 3:14 Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up?

15 Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?

16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.

17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.



Look at the apostles of Christ:

Acts 5:40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.



The Apostle Paul gave up great riches and position in the religious communtiy to follow Christ and proclaim Him wherever he went.


1 Corinthians 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;

12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.


2 Corinthians 11:22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.



Shirley

danield
Mar 28th 2008, 03:57 AM
I think this passage gives us a clue as to what will work during that time.



She gave birth to a son who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away from the dragon and was caught up to God and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place to care for her for 1,260 days.

7 Then there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels. 8 And the dragon lost the battle, and he and his angels were forced out of heaven. 9 This great dragon—the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world—was thrown down to the earth with all his angels.
10 Then I heard a loud voice shouting across the heavens,
“It has come at last—
salvation and power
and the Kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=12&version=51#fen-NLT-30862a)]
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters
has been thrown down to earth—
the one who accuses them
before our God day and night.
11 And they have defeated him by the blood of the Lamb
and by their testimony.
And they did not love their lives so much
that they were afraid to die.
12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens!
And you who live in the heavens, rejoice!
But terror will come on the earth and the sea,
for the devil has come down to you in great anger,
knowing that he has little time.”

[B]13 When the dragon realized that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But she was given two wings like those of a great eagle so she could fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness. There she would be cared for and protected from the dragon[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=12&version=51#fen-NLT-30866c)] for a time, times, and half a time.

15 Then the dragon tried to drown the woman with a flood of water that flowed from his mouth. 16 But the earth helped her by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that gushed out from the mouth of the dragon. 17 And the dragon was angry at the woman and declared war against the rest of her children—all who keep God’s commandments and maintain their testimony for Jesus.


I believe you will have to have a place in isolation in the wilderness set up for that amount of time in order to elude persecution. I think it would have to be self sufficient ie solar power type farm in a country that would not matter to the rest of the world! But I have not hit the lotto for us to make a place like that to hide everyone in! sigh :( I guess I will try for Friday night’s jack pot!!!:pp

ShirleyFord
Mar 28th 2008, 04:05 AM
I have never taken that verse in Revelation 13 to mean what you said. I have always taken the "he" in that verse to be speaking about the beast and his army. I have always read that verse to be saying, look the beast may be killing and taking into captivity now but when Christ returns he will be killed and taken into cativity. Therefore the saints should have patience in waiting for the return of the Lord.

I agree absolutely, CWB!

That great Day is Coming! The return of our Lord Jesus Christ!

And oh what a day, glorious day that will be!

third hero
Mar 28th 2008, 04:13 AM
God will still be God. He fed Elijah by placing him at a pool of water and he sent birds to him every day to feast on. And when the drought came and the pool dried up, God sent Elijah to a poor widow woman's house for his survival. But she only had enough food for one last meager meal for her and her son.

But God grew the oil in her pots and the meal so that she ran out of pots and had to borrow pots from all over the neighberhood to put it all in. When she had enough to last her the duration of the 3 1/2 years drought, the oil stayed, the Bible says.

The question we should all ask ourselves, Am I willing to be persecuted and even killed rather than compromise and not be persecuted and be allowed to stay alive with plenty to eat, etc.


The three Hebrew children wouldn't compromise in the face of death.

Daniel 3:14 Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up?

15 Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?

16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.

17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.



Look at the apostles of Christ:

Acts 5:40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.



The Apostle Paul gave up great riches and position in the religious communtiy to follow Christ and proclaim Him wherever he went.


1 Corinthians 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;

12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.


2 Corinthians 11:22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.



Shirley

So, what you are saying is to let God be God and try not to figure anything out until that time comes. I simply do not agree with that asessment.

Yes, God will still be God, and He will provide all of our needs. However, we still have responsibilities here. If it was not important for us to discuss this topic, then God would not have given us 2000 years of advanced warning.

I believe that He gave John Revelation for a reason. I believe that it survived all of this time for a reason. And I believe that that reason is so that we do not get caught off guard. The wait and see approach, although it sounds Christianlike, IMHO, is the same as putting our heads in the sand. Unlike a time in Elijah's time, the entire world will be hunting against us, and the poor woman that God helped during that time will either be in hiding herself, or a traitor against God, if she were to be in the time of th Great Tribulation.

We will have no help from other people at all, for those who take the mark will want to have us do what they have done, and will hunt us down as fervently as the officials in the governments. The only ones who could help will be the ones who have taken the proper precautions.

Therefore, I can not simpy accept the "God is God and we have nothing to worry about". I'd say that we have plenty to worry about.

I am not talking about what happens if caught. That's the easy part. Confess Christ as Lord and embrace death. Your fight is over and you won. I am talking about the survivors. It is not God's desire to let His people simply die of starvation or illness. He will provide, and I believe that He has given us the time to make the preparations. Consider Noah. Like us, He was given a prophecy. If He had have said, let God be God and let Him build the Ark, we would not be here today, for all of humanity would surely be destroyed at the flood.

So, help us figure this out! Because even if it does not happen in our lifetimes, it is GOING TO HAPPEN... if my POV is correct. I want our descendents to at least be prepared. And what if it does happen in our lifetime? It's going to be bad enough, why not take some time to prepare for it?

danield
Mar 28th 2008, 04:19 AM
So, what you are saying is to let God be God and try not to figure anything out until that time comes. I simply do not agree with that asessment.

Yes, God will still be God, and He will provide all of our needs. However, we still have responsibilities here. If it was not important for us to discuss this topic, then God would not have given us 2000 years of advanced warning.

I believe that He gave John Revelation for a reason. I believe that it survived all of this time for a reason. And I believe that that reason is so that we do not get caught off guard. The wait and see approach, although it sounds Christianlike, IMHO, is the same as putting our heads in the sand. Unlike a time in Elijah's time, the entire world will be hunting against us, and the poor woman that God helped during that time will either be in hiding herself, or a traitor against God, if she were to be in the time of th Great Tribulation.

We will have no help from other people at all, for those who take the mark will want to have us do what they have done, and will hunt us down as fervently as the officials in the governments. The only ones who could help will be the ones who have taken the proper precautions.

Therefore, I can not simpy accept the "God is God and we have nothing to worry about". I'd say that we have plenty to worry about.

I am not talking about what happens if caught. That's the easy part. Confess Christ as Lord and embrace death. Your fight is over and you won. I am talking about the survivors. It is not God's desire to let His people simply die of starvation or illness. He will provide, and I believe that He has given us the time to make the preparations. Consider Noah. Like us, He was given a prophecy. If He had have said, let God be God and let Him build the Ark, we would not be here today, for all of humanity would surely be destroyed at the flood.

So, help us figure this out! Because even if it does not happen in our lifetimes, it is GOING TO HAPPEN... if my POV is correct. I want our descendents to at least be prepared. And what if it does happen in our lifetime? It's going to be bad enough, why not take some time to prepare for it?

I fully agree Third Hero!

cwb
Mar 28th 2008, 04:21 AM
I agree absolutely, CWB!

That great Day is Coming! The return of our Lord Jesus Christ!

And oh what a day, glorious day that will be!

It is that hope that will cause those believers who are in the great tribulation to be able to endure. The hope is what causes us to endure today also.

cwb
Mar 28th 2008, 04:29 AM
So, what you are saying is to let God be God and try not to figure anything out until that time comes. I simply do not agree with that asessment.

Yes, God will still be God, and He will provide all of our needs. However, we still have responsibilities here. If it was not important for us to discuss this topic, then God would not have given us 2000 years of advanced warning.

I believe that He gave John Revelation for a reason. I believe that it survived all of this time for a reason. And I believe that that reason is so that we do not get caught off guard. The wait and see approach, although it sounds Christianlike, IMHO, is the same as putting our heads in the sand. Unlike a time in Elijah's time, the entire world will be hunting against us, and the poor woman that God helped during that time will either be in hiding herself, or a traitor against God, if she were to be in the time of th Great Tribulation.

We will have no help from other people at all, for those who take the mark will want to have us do what they have done, and will hunt us down as fervently as the officials in the governments. The only ones who could help will be the ones who have taken the proper precautions.

Therefore, I can not simpy accept the "God is God and we have nothing to worry about". I'd say that we have plenty to worry about.

I am not talking about what happens if caught. That's the easy part. Confess Christ as Lord and embrace death. Your fight is over and you won. I am talking about the survivors. It is not God's desire to let His people simply die of starvation or illness. He will provide, and I believe that He has given us the time to make the preparations. Consider Noah. Like us, He was given a prophecy. If He had have said, let God be God and let Him build the Ark, we would not be here today, for all of humanity would surely be destroyed at the flood.

So, help us figure this out! Because even if it does not happen in our lifetimes, it is GOING TO HAPPEN... if my POV is correct. I want our descendents to at least be prepared. And what if it does happen in our lifetime? It's going to be bad enough, why not take some time to prepare for it?

Though I still see having the hope of the return in our hearts as the greatest thing we can do today to prepare for the tribualation (if we are not raptured before hand. Sorry had to throw that in.) If the hope is not buried in your heart, you will not be able to endure. Also memorizing some scriptures is really not a bad idea. You could be caught in a situation where you do not have a bible available and would have to rely on what you have remembered.

As far as Noah goes, God gave him specific revelation on what to do. God has not given me any specific revelation as of yet. I do not see storing up 3 1/2 years of food as even being a possibility as of now. Though if that is what God told me to do, that is what I would do.

Literalist-Luke
Mar 28th 2008, 06:03 AM
In this situation we would be at war. Breaking and entering a drugstore for needed medications would be spoils of war. When we look at the OT and all the battles that were fought, in most cases they were allowed to take the spoils. I don't think this would be any different.I totally agree 100%. If it's OK for David to go into the Temple and eat the consecrated bread while he was on the run from Saul, then it's OK for us to do what's necessary as well.

Literalist-Luke
Mar 28th 2008, 06:29 AM
God will still be God. He fed Elijah by placing him at a pool of water and he sent birds to him every day to feast on. And when the drought came and the pool dried up, God sent Elijah to a poor widow woman's house for his survival. But she only had enough food for one last meager meal for her and her son.

But God grew the oil in her pots and the meal so that she ran out of pots and had to borrow pots from all over the neighberhood to put it all in. When she had enough to last her the duration of the 3 1/2 years drought, the oil stayed, the Bible says.

The question we should all ask ourselves, Am I willing to be persecuted and even killed rather than compromise and not be persecuted and be allowed to stay alive with plenty to eat, etc. Your point about Elijah is certainly well taken. However, I would also point out, conversely, that David does not appear to have been provided for in a similar miraculous way. I would point out that Jesus Himself even spoke of David’s taking the consecrated bread from the Temple in an approving fashion, given David’s circumstances. It seems to me that there is a two-pronged approach for this: Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.
The three Hebrew children wouldn't compromise in the face of death.

Daniel 3:14 Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up?

15 Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?

16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.

17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up. The difference here, however, would have been that the compromise would have involved the betrayal of God they were specifically trying to avoid. I know, that’s not worded very well, so here’s what I mean: Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego’s refusal to bow to the image would be equivalent to us refusing to take the mark. It has nothing to do with our survival. Now, if Nebuchadnezzar had taken them out in the desert and dumped them there to make it on their own, they might have had some other options to consider, like whether or not to raid a passing caravan for some food supplies. But they were not given that option, they were taken straight to their execution. That would be equivalent to us refusing to take the Mark and being taken straight to our beheading. Probably, we would not be miraculously delivered as they were. But their statement before being thrown in would certainly be appropriate – “If the God we serve is able to deliver us, then he will deliver us from the blazing furnace and from Your Majesty's hand. But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” For those believers who refuse the Mark and are not captured, at least not immediately, they will have the survival option to consider, like as if Nebuchadnezzar had dumped Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in the desert. You chose a good analogy, but you probably need to look at your analogy from a different angle.
Look at the apostles of Christ:

Acts 5:40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

The Apostle Paul gave up great riches and position in the religious communtiy to follow Christ and proclaim Him wherever he went.

1 Corinthians 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;

12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

2 Corinthians 11:22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.All of this has to do when they were facing government officials or other leaders who were specifically persecuting them for their beliefs. Again, this would be equivalent to somebody telling us to choose between taking the Mark or getting our head axed off. For somebody who is not imminently facing that choice, it’s a whole ‘nother ball game. While the apostles were out and free, they did not attempt to deliberately live like paupers and “suffer for Jesus”. They did what they could to make the best of it, but without compromising their message. That’s the key for believers facing the Mark society. Not compromising their message. At the same time, however, it will be a war, so normal rules of social conduct would be suspended, like during Joshua’s conquest of the Promised Land, just as somebody very correctly pointed out earlier in this thread. That was war. And it will also be war during the Tribulation.

vinsight4u8
Mar 28th 2008, 09:45 AM
Just a tidbit to add - a thought to ponder?

Did God punish Nebuchadnezzar for seven times, because he had the furnace for the friends of Daniel heated seven times hotter?

ShirleyFord
Mar 28th 2008, 10:40 AM
So, what you are saying is to let God be God and try not to figure anything out until that time comes. I simply do not agree with that asessment.

3H, according to God's word, God is God, regardless of the circumstances we find ourselves in. He is God even when ruthless, evil men rule earthly kingdoms and physically rule over His people.



Therefore, I can not simpy accept the "God is God and we have nothing to worry about". I'd say that we have plenty to worry about.

Not according to Jesus:

Matthew 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.


Shirley

third hero
Mar 28th 2008, 10:49 AM
Great responses all.

Here is my point. When the time of the greatest period of human suffering ever happens, and that is if my POV is correct, then we face some very difficult choices.

When I compare what the tribulation saints will face to what the original 12 faced, I see that there really is no comparison; for the Tribulation Saints will indeed have it worse off. There is a reason why God gave us 2000 years to prepare. If there are some well versed in the Ot, then they could say that He gave us a LOT more time than that, warning us in the book of Daniel; more specifically, the seventh chapter.

As previously stated, the very livelihoods of the original 12 were never in danger, only their lives. They could work, go to the markets, and do what they had to do to survive, without compromising anything. NOt so with the Tribulation saints.

Sorry, cwb, but I see the warning in Revelation 13 as a warning for us. And I believe that we should take it to heart. Those like me who undersand that there is a need to create safehavens and try to protect them by raising up soldier types within our ranks must understand the risks that come with it. No place will be safe for the rest of the time of the Tribulation. We will be found out. Our armies will not be able to defeat the threat that will be the Little Horn. And the vast majority of us will have to face their assimilation, or death.

It is my belief that all of these factors must be brought out in the open in order for us to have a fighting chance at the one thing that Christ promised us, that there will be survivors when He returns. Remember, even Christ understood the situation of the GreaT Tribulation. Consider this verse:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. -Matthew 24:22-23

In other words, unless Jesus shorten the period of the Great Tribulation, no one will be able to survive it. However, God will step in, and the days will be shortened. That is frightening.

The greatest hope we have is that Christ will return, This is true, and it is the hope of all of us here. (And if it isn't then someone needs an attitude adjustment). However, we are not talking about the return here, we are talking about the interim, the period right before Christ returns.

I thought about the old-fashioned approach of storing up food for 3.5 years, but the thought hit me. "Great, I stored food for myself, and what about my brethern?" I then realized that 3.5 years of food will do us no good, because we can not store enough food for all of the victims of the Beast. So, farming would become absolutely critical. With that, land must be secured. In order to have it secured, we have to train soldiers. ANd that is only the beginning.

The situation will be grim, to say the least. The governments, whether they be local or national, will want to destroy all of us, and they will stop at nothing to acchieve that goal. They will take houses, land, and everything with it just to get us to either take the Mark or die. We must be prepared. Am I saying, let's raise up an army? No. What I am saying is that God is already raising one up, and what we need to do is stop acting like hippies, and you know who you are, and start supportting our brethern who are in the armed forces right now, because we will be needing them to help us protect each other during the war that is the Great Tribulation. Remember, if my interpretation is correct, then we have no chance of defeating the Beast, but it does not say that we have no chance of repelling him until we can have the inhabitants of our safehavens escape.

We also need to be organized. Safehavens must be built. they must be able to be quickly built, and dismantle. There must be a means of communicating between safehavens, and that method can not be something that the world can detect. In other words, telephones and radio communications can not be used, because the radio waves can be traced, and the safehavens transmitting them will be instantly in danger.

Now this is the most important part. We must continue to spread the Gospel. We must have groups of people who are unarmed, who will go out into the world, and continue to proseletyze to the unwashed masses. There may end up being people who will be saved during this time period because something inside of them told them not to take the Mark. We MUST reach them, and help them. Those who go out must be aware that they can be caught at anytime, and it may not be possible for the soldiers to rescue them in time. They will be going out to face the wolf directly. They must be protected at all times by prayer. Intercessors must pray over all of us night and day, with no doubts in their minds or hearts, because Satan will definitely try to get us to turn on one another, even as he is trying to do today, and has been trying for the last 2000 years.

It will no doubt be war, and in situations like that, morality must still be maintained, although some things will be bent in order for the majjority of us to survive. I ask you all today to consider what I have said here, and at least help create a plan that can help us survive this horrible period of time. I have been thinking about this for at least 10 years, and this is the best I can do.

I need help, and I am asking all of you to help me. The Great Tribulation may not happen in our lifetimes, but then again it could. We could all be raptured before the Great Tribulation, but then again, we might not. One thing is certain, no matter what we believe, it is paramount that we figure out a unified means of surviving those days, or else like Ben Franklin stated so long ago, "We will either hang together or Hang separately".

Firstfruits
Mar 28th 2008, 10:56 AM
Imagine this:

The Beast has revealed himself. Jerusalem is in bondage, with many casualties. The world now has to choose whether to accept that their Savior is now claiming to be God, or otherwise reject him utterly. Mind you, at this point, a great and costly war has all but depleted most of the world of it's resources of war. And on top of that, the one person that ended the war is the person who is now claiming to be God. The world, according to the Bible, will play along and side with their savior.

Now, you know that the beast is going to attack you and your churches. Your schools and homes will become political targets, mainly because you have chosen to follow Christ, and utterly reject the Beast. You and your children will be subject to assimilation or death.

The question I pose to you is this: What do we, the saints, do? I know that thjose who are captured will have to face death, and that the rest will basically run for their lives and create safehavens in which they can hide from the world governments. But I feel as though this question has not really been asked, and the ideas have not been explored.

I want answers with some real thought and reason behind them, because I believe that we must be prepared, and not just spiritually. There wil be survivors, because Christ foretold that there will be. We also know through Daniel and John that the beast will wage war against the saints. These are facts that a generation of believers will have to face, even if it is not this one, and by no means am I saying that it can not happen in our lifetimes.

So, what say you?

Not much we can do but to hold on to Jesus, knowing that if we die during that time we shall be blessed.

Rev 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 13:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Rev 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Remember those that are in the first resurrection.

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 15:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

What a prize at the end!!!!!

third hero
Mar 28th 2008, 11:01 AM
3H, according to God's word, God is God, regardless of the circumstances we find ourselves in. He is God even when ruthless, evil men rule earthly kingdoms and physically rule over His people.

God was God in 70AD, and yet Jerusalem was overtaken, and destroyed. God was God during te Inquisitions, and yet millions of believers were executed by the Whore of Babylon. God was God during World War II, and yet millions of Jews and Gentiles alike died in concentration camps. What do all of these examples have in common? God was and still will be God. It is no excuse to not prepare.

In 70AD, the Christians were wise enough to know that God was goingto allow Jerusalem to be overtaken and destroyed, and so the made haste, and left. In the INquisitions, the CHristians who opposed the RCC did not just hand themselve over to the inquisitors for execution. THe people of Europe who aided the Jews did not just haphazardly give up themselves to Hitler. In all three of these examples, God was stil God, and the body count was limited because people took God at His Word, and did what they had to do in order to survive, and help others do the same. Just like God is God, we still have an obligation to prepare, just as the people in other adverse time periods had done.



Not according to Jesus:

Matthew 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.


Shirley


Did you forget that it is the very same Jesus, right before he was captured, admonished the disciples to buy swords? Take a look.

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. -Luke 22:36.

Jesus did not say that so that the Disciples would go on rampages. No. He understood that there will come a time where we are going to have to defend ourselves. This is why he said to sell what they had, and buy a sword. It was not for them, but for the Tribulation Saints. Why? Because when that time comes, their money will be no good to the world anyway, because the monetary system will be converted into the Mark. We must understand this, and be aware that Jesus is not ignorant of what is coming.

Simply saying, "worry not at all" is not going to cut it in this case. Jesus will take care of us, but atthe same time, we are to do our part as well. "Those who do not work will not eat". We can not simply continue to be complacent and let God do all of the worrying. We must prepare, or at the very least, talk of preparations, so that whosoever will end up going through this time period will at least know what is coming, and not be caught off guard like the Russian Christians in the early 1900's.

ShirleyFord
Mar 28th 2008, 11:29 AM
Did you forget that it is the very same Jesus, right before he was captured, admonished the disciples to buy swords? Take a look.

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. -Luke 22:36.


They didn't need to buy any swords:

Luke 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Peter did take his sword to the arrest of Jesus and cut off a man's ear. But Jesus healed the man.


Are you saying that we need to prepare for the GT by buying swords? I don't own a sword. And even if I did, I wouldn't know how to use it. Should I invest in swords and a course on sword-fighting.

Sorry, but I don't have the money to stock-pile swords and weapons and build hiding places all over the planet and fill them with 3 1/2 years of food and other survival supplies.

Firstfruits
Mar 28th 2008, 12:46 PM
With regards to preparing for that time, how does the following apply?

Mt 10:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mt 10:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Mt 10:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, And the father the child: And the children shall rise up against their parents, And cause them to be put to death.

Firstfruits

third hero
Mar 28th 2008, 12:51 PM
They didn't need to buy any swords:

Luke 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Peter did take his sword to the arrest of Jesus and cut off a man's ear. But Jesus healed the man.


Are you saying that we need to prepare for the GT by buying swords? I don't own a sword. And even if I did, I wouldn't know how to use it. Should I invest in swords and a course on sword-fighting.

Sorry, but I don't have the money to stock-pile swords and weapons and build hiding places all over the planet and fill them with 3 1/2 years of food and other survival supplies.

I made my point plan and easy to understand. Please do not attempt to mock me or make a complicated situation even more complicated.

What I want is help, help preparing a comprehensive plan on the best ways to survive the Great Tribulation. That involves people brainstorming and taking account of every known variable that will be in effect when that time comes.

This is why I hate getting into debates. In an effort to derail the actual topic, one goes off on a tangeant hoping to draw the conversation in that direction and ruin the entire experience that the OP was meant to inspire. Swords are not what I was talking about. I was talking about the need to be prepared for the greatest period of human suffering to ever hit this place that we call Earth. That was, is, and will continue to be my point. tangeants aren't going to get us anywhere, and I suggest that if you only want to insult my intentions, to create another thread and do so, and stop wasting my time here. I am serious about what I am trying to do, even if it is too "unchristianlike" for you. I do not have the time to continue to debate whether we should do something or not. I have made up my mind, and I am hoping that like-minded or at the very least open-minded individuals would help me out. If can do not want to, then simply move to the next thread and leave this one alone. I am not asking you to change your mind. I am not even asking for your opinion as to whether we should do something or not. Note the title of this thread...:The First Day: What do We Do? That is not "Should we do anything". IF you do not want to participate, then simply do what God has given you the ability to do, and do not participate.

(BTW, I am short on patience when it comes to me asking direct questions and getting answers that have nothing to do with the OP, so please stick to the subject, or do not participate. Thank you).

third hero
Mar 28th 2008, 12:56 PM
With regards to preparing for that time, how does the following apply?

Mt 10:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mt 10:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Mt 10:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, And the father the child: And the children shall rise up against their parents, And cause them to be put to death.

Firstfruits

Did you notice that in that very same verse that you highlighted, Jesus lays down some conditions? The condition in which we are to take no thought about what we are going to say is that wehen "they deliver you up", meaning when you are captured. I thought I covered this some posts ago. When someone is captured, the hard part is over, they will go on to Glory, as Revelation 14:10 and chapter 15 clearly state. They simply deny the Beast his demand for Godhood, get beheaded and call it a career.

I am not talking about those who are captured. I am not talking about those who are forced to make the choice between the Mark or death. I am talking about the rest of us who are not captured, who must find a means to live when every access to the basic necessities of life are denied us. What do we do? How do we survive until we either get captured or killed? Any ideas?

Firstfruits
Mar 28th 2008, 01:05 PM
I made my point plan and easy to understand. Please do not attempt to mock me or make a complicated situation even more complicated.

What I want is help, help preparing a comprehensive plan on the best ways to survive the Great Tribulation. That involves people brainstorming and taking account of every known variable that will be in effect when that time comes.

This is why I hate getting into debates. In an effort to derail the actual topic, one goes off on a tangeant hoping to draw the conversation in that direction and ruin the entire experience that the OP was meant to inspire. Swords are not what I was talking about. I was talking about the need to be prepared for the greatest period of human suffering to ever hit this place that we call Earth. That was, is, and will continue to be my point. tangeants aren't going to get us anywhere, and I suggest that if you only want to insult my intentions, to create another thread and do so, and stop wasting my time here. I am serious about what I am trying to do, even if it is too "unchristianlike" for you. I do not have the time to continue to debate whether we should do something or not. I have made up my mind, and I am hoping that like-minded or at the very least open-minded individuals would help me out. If can do not want to, then simply move to the next thread and leave this one alone. I am not asking you to change your mind. I am not even asking for your opinion as to whether we should do something or not. Note the title of this thread...:The First Day: What do We Do? That is not "Should we do anything". IF you do not want to participate, then simply do what God has given you the ability to do, and do not participate.

(BTW, I am short on patience when it comes to me asking direct questions and getting answers that have nothing to do with the OP, so please stick to the subject, or do not participate. Thank you).

How do you prepare when everyone that worships the beast is likely to betray you, even brother betraying brother, etc?

Mt 10:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, And the father the child: And the children shall rise up against their parents, And cause them to be put to death.
Mt 24:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

third hero
Mar 28th 2008, 01:10 PM
How do you prepare when everyone that worships the beast is likely to betray you, even brother betraying brother, etc?

Mt 10:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, And the father the child: And the children shall rise up against their parents, And cause them to be put to death.
Mt 24:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

That is the reason why I have created this thread. You introduced yet another wrinkle in the equation. This needs to be discussed, and a solution must bebrought about. And one person can not do this alone.

If you have any ideas, please share them. I would greatly appreciate it.

Firstfruits
Mar 28th 2008, 01:41 PM
That is the reason why I have created this thread. You introduced yet another wrinkle in the equation. This needs to be discussed, and a solution must bebrought about. And one person can not do this alone.

If you have any ideas, please share them. I would greatly appreciate it.

According to the following it will involve pleanty of fleeing/running until of you course you are caught.

Mt 10:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Mt 23:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Remember it will be like nothing ever known before on the earth.

vinsight4u8
Mar 28th 2008, 03:07 PM
How do you know that you are in the tribulation? What would be the key factor for you?

If there is a pre-trib rapture - then I'll take the mark as the bible will be proven to me to be phoney baloney as to its message.

cwb
Mar 28th 2008, 03:07 PM
Third Hero
I know that in a previous post in this thread, you mentioned that you thought doing things such as taking from a drug store during the tribualation would be a sin. There have been a few posters here who have disagreed with you that this would be a sin. I am just curious as to what your take is on that after hearing what some of the posters have said.

cwb
Mar 28th 2008, 03:18 PM
How do you know that you are in the tribulation? What would be the key factor for you?



I think it would be pretty obvious when the man of sin reveals himself.



If there is a pre-trib rapture - then I'll take the mark as the bible will be proven to me to be phoney baloney as to its message.


I think a better idea would be to simply admit that you were wrong in how you interpreted certain scriptures. I know that is what I would do if my veiwpoint turns out to be wrong. If the tribulation starts and I am still here, I will simply admit that how I viewed certain scripture and that's that. I certainly will not say that it means the the bible is "phoney baloney" and go and take the mark. The consequences of taking the mark is quite a bit more severe than any pride we have or anything we have to go through to not take it.

vinsight4u8
Mar 28th 2008, 03:25 PM
As for me, I was happy just knowing what I knew about from my own study of prophecy. Few today seemed to have actually studied the bible from cover to cover and let God lead them to whether He wants them to preach for Him or not.

I was saved at fifteen, and telling people about Jesus soon thereafter, even strangers. I knew I was called then to study (not go get false prophet men's opinions) but to learn on my with God helping me. Even though I was talking to people, I did not bring up the subject of when the rapture is, unless they wanted to discusss it. At 15, I knew the coming of Jesus is in the 6th seal and that is when the 7th trumpet sounds. I also, understood other things - nothing different than what I still say today, just deeper knowledge now. I would not type the messages that I do on the net or speak at stores and such if God did not send me back in 1993 to go and help people to see that we have to take a fresh look at prophecy as the endtime keys are being missed.

Even for many years, when others came to me - as strangers (one even knew my name) and told me that I'm called, chosen to carry the Gospel, even then I did not head to the streets and try to teach the endtime verses that I know people are totalling missing that are important. I went to the streets later, knowing that I was back up by a call from Jesus Christ. I only came to the internet after I had prayed and prayed, staying up night after night, pleading with God to let others hear the truth. I wanted to know, just whom is He sending to show people the key verses to link together? I didn'f for a moment think it was me. I was not on the net. God had me get a huge map out and lay it on the floor in my room and pray, pray and pray for different nations an places, sometimes a long time for just one location, that He would open the doors so the truth can be known.

After about two weeks or so of doing that, being led by God to get out of bed and pray for the place(s) He put on my heart for souls...God showed me that I'm to carry the endtimes verses on the net.
It is my job.

Show me where your pre-trib rapture people ever had a call from God to speak. I went and looked at some of their books - yes, for years, I have been asked by places to write as to the endtimes. I was not yet ready...I see people today just keep rolling books off the presses one after another. Some pre-trib places have even asked me to write as to the antichrist and Iraq, seals or such - but please do it from a pre-trib viewpoint. Of course, I will never do that!

vinsight4u8
Mar 28th 2008, 03:27 PM
I think it would be pretty obvious when the man of sin reveals himself.



I think a better idea would be to simply admit that you were wrong in how you interpreted certain scriptures. I know that is what I would do if my veiwpoint turns out to be wrong. If the tribulation starts and I am still here, I will simply admit that how I viewed certain scripture and that's that. I certainly will not say that it means the the bible is "phoney baloney" and go and take the mark. The consequences of taking the mark is quite a bit more severe than any pride we have or anything we have to go through to not take it.


my doorbell is ringing - back in a bit
sorry,

cwb
Mar 28th 2008, 03:53 PM
As for me, I was happy just knowing what I knew about from my own study of prophecy. Few today seemed to have actually studied the bible from cover to cover and let God lead them to whether He wants them to preach for Him or not.

I was saved at fifteen, and telling people about Jesus soon thereafter, even strangers. I knew I was called then to study (not go get false prophet men's opinions) but to learn on my with God helping me. Even though I was talking to people, I did not bring up the subject of when the rapture is, unless they wanted to discusss it. At 15, I knew the coming of Jesus is in the 6th seal and that is when the 7th trumpet sounds. I also, understood other things - nothing different than what I still say today, just deeper knowledge now. I would not type the messages that I do on the net or speak at stores and such if God did not send me back in 1993 to go and help people to see that we have to take a fresh look at prophecy as the endtime keys are being missed.

Even for many years, when others came to me - as strangers (one even knew my name) and told me that I'm called, chosen to carry the Gospel, even then I did not head to the streets and try to teach the endtime verses that I know people are totalling missing that are important. I went to the streets later, knowing that I was back up by a call from Jesus Christ. I only came to the internet after I had prayed and prayed, staying up night after night, pleading with God to let others hear the truth. I wanted to know, just whom is He sending to show people the key verses to link together? I didn'f for a moment think it was me. I was not on the net. God had me get a huge map out and lay it on the floor in my room and pray, pray and pray for different nations an places, sometimes a long time for just one location, that He would open the doors so the truth can be known.

After about two weeks or so of doing that, being led by God to get out of bed and pray for the place(s) He put on my heart for souls...God showed me that I'm to carry the endtimes verses on the net.
It is my job.

Show me where your pre-trib rapture people ever had a call from God to speak. I went and looked at some of their books - yes, for years, I have been asked by places to write as to the endtimes. I was not yet ready...I see people today just keep rolling books off the presses one after another. Some pre-trib places have even asked me to write as to the antichrist and Iraq, seals or such - but please do it from a pre-trib viewpoint. Of course, I will never do that!

And I think you do a great job in your posts here. I know I have enjoyed reading your posts here and have learned from reading them. I might not agree with you on every aspect but nevertheless have learned from things you have posted. In all the posts of yours I have read, you have always been teaching your viewpoint with alot of grace without using alot of rhetoric against other viewpoints. That's why I was kind of surprised at your previous post in this thread.

third hero
Mar 28th 2008, 04:01 PM
Third Hero
I know that in a previous post in this thread, you mentioned that you thought doing things such as taking from a drug store during the tribualation would be a sin. There have been a few posters here who have disagreed with you that this would be a sin. I am just curious as to what your take is on that after hearing what some of the posters have said.

Just because the scenarios change, that doesn ot mean that God changes, or that His rules change. I can not honestly say that the thingsa which will have to be done during that time are not sins. A spade is a spade.

I am not certain that those who talk about stealing from a drugstore disagree with me. However, they understand, as do I, that there are some things that are going to have to be done for the greater good. The one that still causes me to cringe ids the idea of killing people in order to save the brethern. That one still does not sit right with me. I know that it will end up having to be an option that we might have to employ, but I can't stand it. Taking a life to save a life....

It's a sin, and I still can not say that it would be a good thing to do these things for our own survival.

However, these things may end up being necessary. As much as I hate to even think about this, I feel as though it has to be brought out into the open, because if I am wrong, then I want to ve corrected now, while we still ahve the time. I do not want to be responsible for people losing portions of their reward in heaven becausethey decided to back my decision to sin against God.

You see, cwb, the idea of CHrist not returning until "immediately after the suffering of those days" brings about crucial decisions that I feel no one should have to be forced to make. What is more important? Survival? The Gospel? If we take the Mark, nothing can save us. If we sin in order to survive, yes we will be forgiven, but what price do we end up paying? The good Lord kknows I do not want to face this horrific set of circumstances. I am certain that no one would.

You see, I would have to say that we may end up having to commit what are definitely sins in order to save the brethern, and that includes raiding grocery stores, convoys, killing those who seek to capture or kill the brethern, and that's the tip of the iceberg here. I can not honestly dismiss these actions as less than sin.

Again, this is why this topic is so difficult. We have to come up with a plan, and every cariable has to be addressed. There are some variables that are less than savory that may have to be done. But we have to come to a conclusion that all of us can live with. I understand the rules of war. I do not agree with them, but what can I say? I have nothing better to replace it, and any other attempts to preserve ourselves without taking the mark results in either death by starvation or worse. So, the rules of war will have to be at least on the table.

So you see, cwb, I have taken a whole lot of words to tell you that this whole situation with committing sins to preserve the lives of the brethern has me torn. I know that God does bend a little, as referenced by Rahab, who lied to her people to protect the Israelite spies. God blessed her for bearing a false witness. She lived while everyone else not in her house died when the walls of Jericho fell.

With all of that said, now what? What do we do?

Firstfruits
Mar 28th 2008, 04:06 PM
I disagree. I believe that if we find ourselves in the tribulation and the rapture has not occured, most pre-tribbers will admit they were wrong in their viewpoint. I believe that those who say the tribulation already happened in 70 AD will also admit they were wrong in their viewpoint. As far as "flooding the earth with deception", the same goes for your viewpoint if it turns out to be wrong and the rapture occurs before the tribulation (or if the tribulation already occured in 70 AD). If your viewpoint turn out to be wrong, all those who have your viewpoint will have been guilty of "flooding the earth with deception". I personally feel that the rhetoric toward other viewpoints ought to be toned down a little. I have not ruled out the possibility that I could be wrong in my viewpoint. I personally feel that anybody who has ruled out the possibilty that they could be wrong in their end times viewpoint is being arrogant in that regard. Anyways, sorry for my rant. Now back to the topic we were discussing.

What is refered to as the rapture is the gathering/resurrection which Jesus states is after the tribulation. Those that believe in him will not be raised until the last day, according to the will of God.

Jn 6:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jn 6:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:54 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=54) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

vinsight4u8
Mar 28th 2008, 04:54 PM
And I think you do a great job in your posts here. I know I have enjoyed reading your posts here and have learned from reading them. I might not agree with you on every aspect but nevertheless have learned from things you have posted. In all the posts of yours I have read, you have always been teaching your viewpoint with alot of grace without using alot of rhetoric against other viewpoints. That's why I was kind of surprised at your previous post in this thread.

I just started to think if I was pre-trib what I would probably do first - and toss out all of the deceptive material was my first thought.

I guess, I look at it is this way...I believe lots of pre-trib preachers, authors and such only say the things they do as to scripture as that is what is popular or taught by the mainstream. So why would these be people that when the trib time comes...don't just go along with the flow as to the strong delusion?


I have yet to see any of them address that Jesus is coming with His reward - and reward isn't even announced to start till the 7th trumpet has already begun to sound.

Many will have to admit that they were not only wrong as to one or two beliefs as to the endtimes, but have to acknowledge that they were at a total loss as to what was really to take place in the end.
To me, this is because - many seem to have never studied the bible from the start to the finish...as in things learned from Genesis and on will help one get the meaning of things seen and heard by John later in Revelation.

If I'm wrong about my calling, then so will many other people also be in error as to it. I didn't ask for people to start telling me at stores and such that God had just shown them that I will work for Him, carry the Gospel, my job will be unique and major. When did Hal Lindsey or Tim Layhe have such experiences as to a call from God? People that came to me used to ask me what this actual job entails and I didn't know. I could only pray about it, keep studying scripture and let the Lord lead. I knew right away that the bible forbids Hiim coming till the 7th trumpet time. Jesus must stay in Heaven till time to make His enemies His footstool. I used to ask my mom (as a teen) why do these guys on tv keep asking for money or they will lose their program or such....when all they have to do is go to the streets and preach? Of course - the rapture is not pre-trib, so they would be preaching error.
If God is behind these men, then He will see their ministry continues and grows...so why do they seem to spend half of their program begging for money for the program? I used to say - just be on half of the time -but of course, I knew they are not called by Jesus to preach a pre-trib scenario.

Leaving with my neighbor that was at my door a bit earlier...so back in a few hours or so. It sure is a friendly place that I moved into as to the people living here! I even learned to cook - from her - she used to cook for a restaurant.

doorbell...

Literalist-Luke
Mar 28th 2008, 04:57 PM
Not according to Jesus:

Matthew 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.


ShirleySo what course of action would you recommend for believers who find themselves faced with taking or rejecting the Mark of the Beast & who need food, shelter, etc.?

Literalist-Luke
Mar 28th 2008, 05:08 PM
God was God in 70AD, and yet Jerusalem was overtaken, and destroyed. God was God during te Inquisitions, and yet millions of believers were executed by the Whore of Babylon. God was God during World War II, and yet millions of Jews and Gentiles alike died in concentration camps. What do all of these examples have in common? God was and still will be God. It is no excuse to not prepare.

In 70AD, the Christians were wise enough to know that God was goingto allow Jerusalem to be overtaken and destroyed, and so the made haste, and left. In the INquisitions, the CHristians who opposed the RCC did not just hand themselve over to the inquisitors for execution. THe people of Europe who aided the Jews did not just haphazardly give up themselves to Hitler. In all three of these examples, God was stil God, and the body count was limited because people took God at His Word, and did what they had to do in order to survive, and help others do the same. Just like God is God, we still have an obligation to prepare, just as the people in other adverse time periods had done.





Did you forget that it is the very same Jesus, right before he was captured, admonished the disciples to buy swords? Take a look.

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. -Luke 22:36.

Jesus did not say that so that the Disciples would go on rampages. No. He understood that there will come a time where we are going to have to defend ourselves. This is why he said to sell what they had, and buy a sword. It was not for them, but for the Tribulation Saints. Why? Because when that time comes, their money will be no good to the world anyway, because the monetary system will be converted into the Mark. We must understand this, and be aware that Jesus is not ignorant of what is coming.

Simply saying, "worry not at all" is not going to cut it in this case. Jesus will take care of us, but atthe same time, we are to do our part as well. "Those who do not work will not eat". We can not simply continue to be complacent and let God do all of the worrying. We must prepare, or at the very least, talk of preparations, so that whosoever will end up going through this time period will at least know what is coming, and not be caught off guard like the Russian Christians in the early 1900's.You've hit the nail right on the head here, third hero. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/smash.gif

Your examples from history are right on.

In addition to what you have said, I would also point out that, even today, we have to make preparations and plan to survive. Even today, we cannot just sit around and let God feed us like the sparrows. He gives us wisdom, strength, etc., but we still have to go find a job, we have to go to work everyday, we have to spend our money wisely at the grocery store, we have to cook our food, and so forth and so on. God does provide, absolutely, but it's up to us to use the provisions wisely. During the Tribulation, He will provide, just as Shirley says, but it is going to be up to us to act on those provisions and to make the most of them. If He chooses to provide for us miraculously, then great, but to sit around expecting it seems to me like squandering the resources that are right in front of us.

Literalist-Luke
Mar 28th 2008, 05:11 PM
With regards to preparing for that time, how does the following apply?

Mt 10:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mt 10:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Mt 10:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, And the father the child: And the children shall rise up against their parents, And cause them to be put to death.

FirstfruitsThis is talking about after you are captured ("delivered up") and you're standing in front of a judge or whatever "authority" is going to pronounce sentence. When that moment comes and they ask "What do you have to say for yourself??", the Holy Spirit will give you wisdom in what to say that they will not be able to refute, just as the Spirit did for Stephen in Acts.

Amazedgrace21
Mar 28th 2008, 05:25 PM
Not to disrupt the flow of this discussion, it's a great thread IMHO..I am curious as to the other issues that will be factors alongside of the appearance and recognition of the anti-christ by believers who connect the dots..

Am I correct that there will be a progression of several very significant events of naural disasters that are pretty unprescedented ( to put mildy) and by this stage, the population numbers of the earth will already be being reduced by them..and on top of that of such nature,society as we know it will be in chaos and infrastructures as we know it perhaps not present or unable to function as they do now?

In this scenario..there would be more opportunities to evade and reorganize periodically..and with what I also understand, Divine intervention on behalf of God to set forth opportunities to do this?Perhaps level the playing field for those He wants to continue in preaching the Gospel?
What I mean basically is that local municipaltities and governments will be bogged down with incredible challanges..and their lust to track down and enforce the mark will be an eventuality that we can't avoid..but it would seem that the odds are not always stacked in their favor here either..they willbe suffering as well..

So wouldn't this leave windows of opportunity for those still alive to use this with periods of reprieves incorporated by God Himself to do so? Sort of more resources presented to go around by sheer mortality rates on both sides? That the best defense will be the offense God himself provides for His own people, much as He did for Israel when it came to the Egyptians?:hmm:

quiet dove
Mar 28th 2008, 05:51 PM
The OP of this thread was a straight forward question. What is the first thing you would do if you found yourself in the tribulation. Answering the question without derogatory remarks towards other views.

Any other discussion needs to be taken to another thread.

Thank you - QD

Literalist-Luke
Mar 28th 2008, 06:04 PM
I just started to think if I was pre-trib what I would probably do first - and toss out all of the deceptive material was my first thought.

I guess, I look at it is this way...I believe lots of pre-trib preachers, authors and such only say the things they do as to scripture as that is what is popular or taught by the mainstream. So why would these be people that when the trib time comes...don't just go along with the flow as to the strong delusion?

I have yet to see any of them address that Jesus is coming with His reward - and reward isn't even announced to start till the 7th trumpet has already begun to sound.

Many will have to admit that they were not only wrong as to one or two beliefs as to the endtimes, but have to acknowledge that they were at a total loss as to what was really to take place in the end.
To me, this is because - many seem to have never studied the bible from the start to the finish...as in things learned from Genesis and on will help one get the meaning of things seen and heard by John later in Revelation.

If I'm wrong about my calling, then so will many other people also be in error as to it. I didn't ask for people to start telling me at stores and such that God had just shown them that I will work for Him, carry the Gospel, my job will be unique and major. When did Hal Lindsey or Tim Layhe have such experiences as to a call from God? People that came to me used to ask me what this actual job entails and I didn't know. I could only pray about it, keep studying scripture and let the Lord lead. I knew right away that the bible forbids Hiim coming till the 7th trumpet time. Jesus must stay in Heaven till time to make His enemies His footstool. I used to ask my mom (as a teen) why do these guys on tv keep asking for money or they will lose their program or such....when all they have to do is go to the streets and preach? Of course - the rapture is not pre-trib, so they would be preaching error.
If God is behind these men, then He will see their ministry continues and grows...so why do they seem to spend half of their program begging for money for the program? I used to say - just be on half of the time -but of course, I knew they are not called by Jesus to preach a pre-trib scenario.

Leaving with my neighbor that was at my door a bit earlier...so back in a few hours or so. It sure is a friendly place that I moved into as to the people living here! I even learned to cook - from her - she used to cook for a restaurant.

doorbell...Vinsight, you have tapped into a truth here that is more critical than I know how to express. I know that no Pre-Tribber desires to be a help to the Church being deceived and they would be the first to say they wish to be faithful to the Bible. And, to be totally honest, the ones who are deeply involved enough in their beliefs to do something like participate in a forum like this are usually at least aware of other theories out there like Post-Trib, so when the time comes, I could easily see those people realizing that they were simply mistaken, no problem.

My greatest concern is the huge number of people in today’s American Church who participate in “pop” Christianity. Paul talks in II Thessalonians 2 about "the falling away". When I realized how Post-Trib fits together with the Antichrist scenario, it was absolutely terrifying to consider the prospect of the "falling away".

It would be the same as the Normandy D-Day invasion. The Nazis were convinced of two fatally false beliefs: (1) The Allies would land at Calais because that's where the English Channel is the narrowest, and (2) The Allies would only land in good weather. When the Allies landed at Normandy in the middle of stormy weather, the German troops at Normandy pleaded with Berlin to move the Nazi tank divisions from Calais to Normandy to help repel the invasion. Hitler and his general staff were still smugly convinced that the invasion would be at Calais in good weather and assumed that the Normandy "skirmishes" were not to be taken seriously. By the time they realized their mistake, the Allies were already entrenched and the Nazis lost the initiative for the rest of the war.

I'm not suggesting that the Church is at risk of "losing" the war. Obviously, we're on the winning side. But I just wonder how much unnecessary damage the Antichrist will be able to do because of believers who don't ID him for who he is because of not being “raptured”. And how many lost people around the world will believe Christianity to be fatally discredited because we had it all “wrong” and will jump aboard the Islamic bandwagon and whistle a happy tune all the way to the place where they get their Mark of the Beast?

I do need to clarify something. When I speak of the "falling away" or "the apostasy", and my concerns about it in light of Post-Tribulationism + Islam's Mahdi, I'm not talking about people like us who are fully cognizant of such information. I'm talking about our current culture of "pop" Christianity. Today (at least in the USA) it's "cool" to be a "Christian". Everybody goes around with crosses hanging from their neck (even while they're in bed with the lover of the week or buying the weekend drug supply from the dealer on the street corner). I'm talking about people who will listen to preachers like John Hagee who thunder to overjoyed congregations about the evil in today's world and how awful it's going to be during the Tribulation, the whole time thinking to themselves "at least I don't have to worry about it". I'm talking about people who go to Michael W. Smith and Stephen Curtis Chapman concerts because all their friends are going. I'm talking about people who decided to join the church their wife has been dragging them to because "it'll probably be a good business decision anyway". I'm talking about people who advertise in the local Christian Yellow Pages because it'll get them more business (and if they have to sign some "meaningless confession card" to get in there, then it's a good business decision anyway). I'm talking about "preachers" who are starting new churches on every street corner because it's "cool" these days to be a Christian and they want to get in on the glut of tithes while the money is still there. I'm talking about people who listen to the local Christian radio station because it's "safe for the entire family" (and if it happens to talk about Jesus in the process, then that's probably OK too). I'm talking about people who get angry when some radical judge wants to take "In God We Trust" off our money or "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance and yet the same people go around not even knowing if it's originally from the Bible or not. (It's not, by the way.)

There are more people than I want to have to even think about in this world and even here in the USA who are Christians because it's "cool". That's "pop" Christianity. Well, my friends, "pop" Christianity's days are numbered. And those are the ones who I get frightened for when I think about what's coming. I'm confident that my faith can stand, because when it starts happening, it'll only confirm the Truth in the Bible that I'm already familiar with. But I am uniquely blessed with this knowledge, as are most of you. What about the others who don't know any better and who's preachers don't know any better?

My own preacher has no interest in this stuff. He's preaching an admittedly excellent series on the "Kingdom of God" and how we need to take our own city for the "Kingdom". He's got everybody pumped up about how he wants OUR church to be known, "not for what we do on Sundays but what we do Monday thru Saturday"! He wants the whole city to see what a great church he's got. (And I think he's honestly very sincere about wanting to win souls, too.) But he's only focusing on the trees. He's missing the forest. And consequently the rest of the congregation is too, for the most part. That's OK for now, while it's safe to be an American Christian. What about the day that everybody says is coming, when it's not safe anymore, but nobody seems to be doing anything about it BECAUSE THEY THINK THEY WON'T HAVE TO FACE IT?????????????

David Taylor
Mar 28th 2008, 06:05 PM
Imagine this:

The Beast has revealed himself. Jerusalem is in bondage, with many casualties. The world now has to choose whether to accept that their Savior is now claiming to be God, or otherwise reject him utterly. Mind you, at this point, a great and costly war has all but depleted most of the world of it's resources of war. And on top of that, the one person that ended the war is the person who is now claiming to be God. The world, according to the Bible, will play along and side with their savior.

Now, you know that the beast is going to attack you and your churches. Your schools and homes will become political targets, mainly because you have chosen to follow Christ, and utterly reject the Beast. You and your children will be subject to assimilation or death.

The question I pose to you is this: What do we, the saints, do?

Easy answer Doug.

"The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid? When the wicked, even mine enemies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh, they stumbled and fell. Though an host should encamp against me, my heart shall not fear: though war should rise against me, in this will I be confident. One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life" Psalms 27:1-4




"When my father and my mother forsake me, then the LORD will take me up. Teach me thy way, O LORD, and lead me in a plain path, because of mine enemies. Deliver me not over unto the will of mine enemies: for false witnesses are risen up against me, and such as breathe out cruelty. I had fainted, unless I had believed to see the goodness of the LORD in the land of the living. Wait on the LORD: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD. " Psalms 27:10-14




"I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday." Psalms 91:2-6

danield
Mar 28th 2008, 06:26 PM
Now this is the most important part. We must continue to spread the Gospel. We must have groups of people who are unarmed, who will go out into the world, and continue to proseletyze to the unwashed masses. There may end up being people who will be saved during this time period because something inside of them told them not to take the Mark. We MUST reach them, and help them. Those who go out must be aware that they can be caught at anytime, and it may not be possible for the soldiers to rescue them in time. They will be going out to face the wolf directly. They must be protected at all times by prayer. Intercessors must pray over all of us night and day, with no doubts in their minds or hearts, because Satan will definitely try to get us to turn on one another, even as he is trying to do today, and has been trying for the last 2000 years.


One of the things that I think you may be missing is the two witnesses. Those two individuals will be witnessing to the masses during or close to the great tribulation, and they will be empowered with the Holy Spirit to do God’s will. I think they will have the power to protect themselves from anything on this earth just as Mosses protected the Israelites during the exodus.



If anyone tries to harm them, fire flashes from their mouths and consumes their enemies. This is how anyone who tries to harm them must die. They have power to shut the sky so that no rain will fall for as long as they prophesy. And they have the power to turn the rivers and oceans into blood, and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they wish.


Yes it will be great to help the cause by witnessing, but I think that during those 7 years I believe your task is to just survive if you can, and to never take the mark! I believe that will be the greatest hurdle of any generation that ever existed.

I was reading in exodus the other day, and I noticed how the Lord harden’s Pharos heart in order to be able to show everyone the Lords authority. The lord just did not free his people, but he laid down any doubts as to what and who delivered the Israelites. He did not want people to get confused that a man came in and negotiated their release, he brought great punishments for not obeying his word, and he showed the Egyptians over and over that he was God of Gods. God controlled Pharaohs heart in order for his plain to be unfolded. I also think this will be factored in when the GT happens. There is not going to be a doubt as to who saved the day.

As far as what we can do, I believe we really need to look at what obstacles we will face during those treacherous times before formulating a plan. I think you may be overlooking some really serious issues that may be part of our problem. For instance what happens when a nuke is dropped on several of our major cities and we have to deal with radiation exposure? Not only are you not going to be able to buy and sell but what you have stored up is going to be worthless because of the radiation. And you are going to feel very weak and nauseated because of that constant exposure. I do not want to be gloom and doom, but I just do not think it will be a casual change over to the AC’s rule. We will defiantly need the Lord to be looking out for us during that terrible time. However I am like you, I want to help the lord in any way I can including using my head prior to those difficult times. I think the biggest problem I have now is resources because I still have not hit the LOTTO! (hehe)

danield
Mar 28th 2008, 08:02 PM
With out the financial resources to secure an out of the way farm to hold up in for a few years, I have personally started making my own bread, canning my own vegetables, and I need to get a flour mill so that I can grind my own flour. I also have been planting a few plants to grow my own vegetables. I continually see the holes that I would face during the tribulation times one which would be the inability to pay the power bill, or even the lack of refrigeration. I am not sure if any of what I had thought of will help me survive, but it is all I can do on a limited scale that I have.

However I honestly think that I just need to continue to pray to the lord that my love for him continues to exceed even the love for my very life because I feel that is ultimately what it will come down to during those times.

tango
Mar 28th 2008, 08:26 PM
This is the kind of thing I spent a lot of time thinking about before coming back to God. Not quite in the sense of how to survive the tribulation but how to survive against a totalitarian government.

It's all very well hoarding food but when the masses want it the masses will take it one way or another. You can hoard guns and ammo too, but sooner or later you'll either run out of bullets and be overrun, or be shot and overrun, or just be overrun.

Growing and raising food from seeds doesn't help for the same reasons. When the masses see a field of corn they'll raid it and take the corn.

So the alternative is to learn where to find food, what can be eaten safely and so on. But then you'll still have the problem of the masses wanting food and eating just about anything they can find, or bandits stealing food from you right after you gather up whatever it is you're planning on eating.

All of the above is further complicated by the idea of sharing. If you had a hoard of food and you could hide or protect it, would you watch those around you starve to death knowing you could feed them? Before coming back to God my answer would have been a resounding YES, now I'm not so sure. So you need a hoard big enough to feed several, not just your immediate family.

So you get back to a situation where sooner or later you have to trust God. After the first few bowls of God's wrath are poured out I suspect even the most hardened survivalist will struggle to keep going without either the mark of the beast or some divine intervention. And what better witness to the undecided than to see God providing for his people?

Mark F
Mar 29th 2008, 12:31 AM
This discussion is not consistant with New Testament doctrine. How can this be edifying? I read every where, "prove to me with Scripture" why you believe such and such. Taking up weapons and looting stores, packing away food is not sound doctrine.

Matthew 6:25:
[ Do Not Worry ] “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?"

And our weapons:
Ephesians 6:10-18:
10 "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—"

And to our tactics:
2 Corinthians 10:3-6:
3 "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled."


Paul explains that though he is in the flesh, he does not resort to tricky complicated tactics, his plan and tactics are strictly of a spiritual nature. Prove with sound doctrine that this type of planning and behavior is taught in Scripture.

I read with sadness the condescending words towards those of us who hold fast to a pre-trib escatology, there are comments made that are actually demeaning of us as if we are lost and deceived, like second class Christians.

My salvation dosen't rest upon the fact that I believe that the Church will be removed before the wrath of God is poured out upon mankind, and that God will again turn to deal with Israel to finish the last of the 70 weeks that were "cut out of time" for their chastisement.

My hope is in a Person and a past event, if I am wrong in my understanding I will do nothing different than I do today, walk in a complete dependence upon Him to meet my every need, that my "brethren" is what the Scriptures teach.

ShirleyFord
Mar 29th 2008, 12:38 AM
So what course of action would you recommend for believers who find themselves faced with taking or rejecting the Mark of the Beast & who need food, shelter, etc.?

Luke,

If we were given a choice to take the mob and have food, shelter, medical care and all the necessities of life to survive physically or reject the mob and suffer hunger, thirst, sicknesses without the physical necessities to survive physically, it would be a difficult choice especially for us parents and grandparents where our children and grandchildren are concerned.

I saw a movie in Church sometime in the 1970s that showed entire families, including babies and small children who didn't get to go in the Rapture but were left behind to face antichrist and the GT.

One family I remember, the mother had turned to Christ and was born again, which was a crime according to the new antichrist laws of the land.
Instead of going directly after this new babe in Christ, antichrist and his followers went after her family. The first thing to happen, the husband lost his good paying job as CEO of a corporation when he wouldn't divorce his wife. Nor could he get another job that would pay enough for his family to have little more than a few slices of bread a day for his family. He had to leave his fine home with tennis courts, swimming pools, servants, etc. He couldn't afford the monthly electric and gas bills. His neighbors didn't want he and his family living in their neighborhood anyway.

Oh what shame that man suffered. Just to think a few months before, he was the richest man in the neighborhood and the entire city. Now he was an outcast because his wife had turned to the Lord and refused the motb and she had warned him not to take the motb or he would suffer eternally in the lake of fire.

The man loved his wife and she did put the fear of God in him for awhile and he refused to take the motb and be eternally lost without any hope. But the time came when his family had no food, no place to live. And his baby was deathly ill from malnutrition. It hadn't had any milk for days. He couldn't take it any longer. He had to go find help.

He armed himself with his gun that he hid inside of his coat. He was going to where there was milk, food and medicine and he was coming back with it for his family, one way or the other.

He was greeted at the market place with two well-dressed gentlemen who helped him shop. They learned about his sick hungry baby and his wife back in an old farm house without any heat or electricity. They offered to help and provide him good shelter for his family and a good paying job so he could support his family well like he use to. The only catch, he would have to take the motb. So he took it.

But according to Revelation 13, no one receives the motb without first worshipping the dragon, the first beast and the image of the first beast. Those who don't worship the dragon, the first beast or the image of the first beast are those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. They are killed and are not offered the motb.

I do believe that things will get worse physically for believers all over the world before Christ returns. What do I do?

I'm 67 years old, not too good at running and hiding from those who might try to harm me. I suppose the only thing left for me is to trust the Lord as I have done these 41 years of serving Him. He hasn't failed me yet. I will just place my hand in His and everything will be alright.

Shirley

2 Peter 2:20
Mar 29th 2008, 01:39 AM
This discussion is not consistant with New Testament doctrine. How can this be edifying? I read every where, "prove to me with Scripture" why you believe such and such. Taking up weapons and looting stores, packing away food is not sound doctrine.

Matthew 6:25:
[ Do Not Worry ] “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?"

And our weapons:
Ephesians 6:10-18:
10 "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—"

And to our tactics:
2 Corinthians 10:3-6:
3 "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled."


Paul explains that though he is in the flesh, he does not resort to tricky complicated tactics, his plan and tactics are strictly of a spiritual nature. Prove with sound doctrine that this type of planning and behavior is taught in Scripture.

I read with sadness the condescending words towards those of us who hold fast to a pre-trib escatology, there are comments made that are actually demeaning of us as if we are lost and deceived, like second class Christians.

My salvation dosen't rest upon the fact that I believe that the Church will be removed before the wrath of God is poured out upon mankind, and that God will again turn to deal with Israel to finish the last of the 70 weeks that were "cut out of time" for their chastisement.

My hope is in a Person and a past event, if I am wrong in my understanding I will do nothing different than I do today, walk in a complete dependence upon Him to meet my every need, that my "brethren" is what the Scriptures teach.

Luke 22
36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Why did they need to do this??

Matt 24
36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

The days of the end will like the days of Noah. Would the ark have built itself? Did God provide an ark for Noah? No, Noah had to prepare for what was coming.

...He would have kept watch and not let his house be broken into...How will we keep the thief from breaking in?

2 Peter 2:20
Mar 29th 2008, 01:55 AM
A little play on words!!!

For those concerned with food preparation. Mountain House freeze dried foods in the #10 cans will last up to 30 years if stored in the correct conditions. Eat them out of the can or heat them up.

Sonshine
Mar 29th 2008, 02:20 AM
Though I still see having the hope of the return in our hearts as the greatest thing we can do today to prepare for the tribualation (if we are not raptured before hand. Sorry had to throw that in.) If the hope is not buried in your heart, you will not be able to endure. Also memorizing some scriptures is really not a bad idea. You could be caught in a situation where you do not have a bible available and would have to rely on what you have remembered.

As far as Noah goes, God gave him specific revelation on what to do. God has not given me any specific revelation as of yet. I do not see storing up 3 1/2 years of food as even being a possibility as of now. Though if that is what God told me to do, that is what I would do.

Storing for that long of a period would be nearly impossible, however, you can educate yourself. The Amish people survive without any modern conveniences, as did our forefathers.

One thing I have been doing is getting heirloom seeds, ones that have not been genetically altered so I can use the seeds after I harvest my garden. I've also started raising a few chickens and plan on getting some milk goats within the next year.

Even people who live in the cities can begin to raise and can their own vegetables.

I live in a rural area. I have a well and about 2 acres of land. I also have an RV that we are converting to solar. Solar is expensive, but if you take into account what your neccessities will be and what you can do without you can start small on the solar and build up. For instance Northern tool has a small solar kit. You can add to that as you get more money. The most expensive part of solar is the inverter, so use income tax refund or the stimulus package for it. Let the government help you before they begin trying to murder us. :)

danield
Mar 29th 2008, 02:23 AM
Thanks 2 Peter 2:20!

And thanks Sonshine! I have bought the heirloom seeds and I am raising some this year! Great ideas for sure.

Sonshine
Mar 29th 2008, 02:29 AM
Great responses all.

Here is my point. When the time of the greatest period of human suffering ever happens, and that is if my POV is correct, then we face some very difficult choices.

When I compare what the tribulation saints will face to what the original 12 faced, I see that there really is no comparison; for the Tribulation Saints will indeed have it worse off. There is a reason why God gave us 2000 years to prepare. If there are some well versed in the Ot, then they could say that He gave us a LOT more time than that, warning us in the book of Daniel; more specifically, the seventh chapter.

As previously stated, the very livelihoods of the original 12 were never in danger, only their lives. They could work, go to the markets, and do what they had to do to survive, without compromising anything. NOt so with the Tribulation saints.

Sorry, cwb, but I see the warning in Revelation 13 as a warning for us. And I believe that we should take it to heart. Those like me who undersand that there is a need to create safehavens and try to protect them by raising up soldier types within our ranks must understand the risks that come with it. No place will be safe for the rest of the time of the Tribulation. We will be found out. Our armies will not be able to defeat the threat that will be the Little Horn. And the vast majority of us will have to face their assimilation, or death.

It is my belief that all of these factors must be brought out in the open in order for us to have a fighting chance at the one thing that Christ promised us, that there will be survivors when He returns. Remember, even Christ understood the situation of the GreaT Tribulation. Consider this verse:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. -Matthew 24:22-23

In other words, unless Jesus shorten the period of the Great Tribulation, no one will be able to survive it. However, God will step in, and the days will be shortened. That is frightening.

The greatest hope we have is that Christ will return, This is true, and it is the hope of all of us here. (And if it isn't then someone needs an attitude adjustment). However, we are not talking about the return here, we are talking about the interim, the period right before Christ returns.

I thought about the old-fashioned approach of storing up food for 3.5 years, but the thought hit me. "Great, I stored food for myself, and what about my brethern?" I then realized that 3.5 years of food will do us no good, because we can not store enough food for all of the victims of the Beast. So, farming would become absolutely critical. With that, land must be secured. In order to have it secured, we have to train soldiers. ANd that is only the beginning.

The situation will be grim, to say the least. The governments, whether they be local or national, will want to destroy all of us, and they will stop at nothing to acchieve that goal. They will take houses, land, and everything with it just to get us to either take the Mark or die. We must be prepared. Am I saying, let's raise up an army? No. What I am saying is that God is already raising one up, and what we need to do is stop acting like hippies, and you know who you are, and start supportting our brethern who are in the armed forces right now, because we will be needing them to help us protect each other during the war that is the Great Tribulation. Remember, if my interpretation is correct, then we have no chance of defeating the Beast, but it does not say that we have no chance of repelling him until we can have the inhabitants of our safehavens escape.

We also need to be organized. Safehavens must be built. they must be able to be quickly built, and dismantle. There must be a means of communicating between safehavens, and that method can not be something that the world can detect. In other words, telephones and radio communications can not be used, because the radio waves can be traced, and the safehavens transmitting them will be instantly in danger.

Now this is the most important part. We must continue to spread the Gospel. We must have groups of people who are unarmed, who will go out into the world, and continue to proseletyze to the unwashed masses. There may end up being people who will be saved during this time period because something inside of them told them not to take the Mark. We MUST reach them, and help them. Those who go out must be aware that they can be caught at anytime, and it may not be possible for the soldiers to rescue them in time. They will be going out to face the wolf directly. They must be protected at all times by prayer. Intercessors must pray over all of us night and day, with no doubts in their minds or hearts, because Satan will definitely try to get us to turn on one another, even as he is trying to do today, and has been trying for the last 2000 years.

It will no doubt be war, and in situations like that, morality must still be maintained, although some things will be bent in order for the majjority of us to survive. I ask you all today to consider what I have said here, and at least help create a plan that can help us survive this horrible period of time. I have been thinking about this for at least 10 years, and this is the best I can do.

I need help, and I am asking all of you to help me. The Great Tribulation may not happen in our lifetimes, but then again it could. We could all be raptured before the Great Tribulation, but then again, we might not. One thing is certain, no matter what we believe, it is paramount that we figure out a unified means of surviving those days, or else like Ben Franklin stated so long ago, "We will either hang together or Hang separately".

Are you talking about something like this?

http://www.arkhaven.org/arkhaven_christian_community.htm

The ultimate and future goal of ArkHaven is to form “a Christian community of intentional neighbors” to prepare a refugee camp on a “green island of survival” for a coming financial depression indicated by world economic trends, and prophetic voices, such as David Wilkerson and others.

Sonshine
Mar 29th 2008, 02:37 AM
Just because the scenarios change, that doesn ot mean that God changes, or that His rules change. I can not honestly say that the thingsa which will have to be done during that time are not sins. A spade is a spade.

I am not certain that those who talk about stealing from a drugstore disagree with me. However, they understand, as do I, that there are some things that are going to have to be done for the greater good. The one that still causes me to cringe ids the idea of killing people in order to save the brethern. That one still does not sit right with me. I know that it will end up having to be an option that we might have to employ, but I can't stand it. Taking a life to save a life....

It's a sin, and I still can not say that it would be a good thing to do these things for our own survival.

However, these things may end up being necessary. As much as I hate to even think about this, I feel as though it has to be brought out into the open, because if I am wrong, then I want to ve corrected now, while we still ahve the time. I do not want to be responsible for people losing portions of their reward in heaven becausethey decided to back my decision to sin against God.

You see, cwb, the idea of CHrist not returning until "immediately after the suffering of those days" brings about crucial decisions that I feel no one should have to be forced to make. What is more important? Survival? The Gospel? If we take the Mark, nothing can save us. If we sin in order to survive, yes we will be forgiven, but what price do we end up paying? The good Lord kknows I do not want to face this horrific set of circumstances. I am certain that no one would.

You see, I would have to say that we may end up having to commit what are definitely sins in order to save the brethern, and that includes raiding grocery stores, convoys, killing those who seek to capture or kill the brethern, and that's the tip of the iceberg here. I can not honestly dismiss these actions as less than sin.

Again, this is why this topic is so difficult. We have to come up with a plan, and every cariable has to be addressed. There are some variables that are less than savory that may have to be done. But we have to come to a conclusion that all of us can live with. I understand the rules of war. I do not agree with them, but what can I say? I have nothing better to replace it, and any other attempts to preserve ourselves without taking the mark results in either death by starvation or worse. So, the rules of war will have to be at least on the table.

So you see, cwb, I have taken a whole lot of words to tell you that this whole situation with committing sins to preserve the lives of the brethern has me torn. I know that God does bend a little, as referenced by Rahab, who lied to her people to protect the Israelite spies. God blessed her for bearing a false witness. She lived while everyone else not in her house died when the walls of Jericho fell.

With all of that said, now what? What do we do?

Is it a sin to take the life of another in times of war? I was listening to a Rabi teaching on the 10 commandments just yesterday, he said that in the original language the proper translation should have been "Thou shalt not murder" not, "Thou shalt not kill" as we see in most translations. There is a difference between murdering and killing. My DH is in the military and in a combat situation there are killings, does that make the soldiers murderers?

cwb
Mar 29th 2008, 03:52 AM
Is it a sin to take the life of another in times of war? I was listening to a Rabi teaching on the 10 commandments just yesterday, he said that in the original language the proper translation should have been "Thou shalt not murder" not, "Thou shalt not kill" as we see in most translations. There is a difference between murdering and killing. My DH is in the military and in a combat situation there are killings, does that make the soldiers murderers?

Soldiers who are fighting for our freedom are certainly not murderers. I am very thankful to God for what they do for us putting their lives on the line.

Bick
Mar 29th 2008, 04:23 AM
Imagine this:

The Beast has revealed himself. Jerusalem is in bondage, with many casualties. The world now has to choose whether to accept that their Savior is now claiming to be God, or otherwise reject him utterly. Mind you, at this point, a great and costly war has all but depleted most of the world of it's resources of war. And on top of that, the one person that ended the war is the person who is now claiming to be God. The world, according to the Bible, will play along and side with their savior.

Now, you know that the beast is going to attack you and your churches. Your schools and homes will become political targets, mainly because you have chosen to follow Christ, and utterly reject the Beast. You and your children will be subject to assimilation or death.

The question I pose to you is this: What do we, the saints, do? I know that thjose who are captured will have to face death, and that the rest will basically run for their lives and create safehavens in which they can hide from the world governments. But I feel as though this question has not really been asked, and the ideas have not been explored.

I want answers with some real thought and reason behind them, because I believe that we must be prepared, and not just spiritually. There wil be survivors, because Christ foretold that there will be. We also know through Daniel and John that the beast will wage war against the saints. These are facts that a generation of believers will have to face, even if it is not this one, and by no means am I saying that it can not happen in our lifetimes.

So, what say you?

MY COMMENTS: I know it is a hypothetical question, but I can't give it much thought, for we, as believers and members of the eccclesia/church body of Christ will have been caught away to the heavenlies, as we read in 1 Cor. 15:51-56, 1 Thes. 4:13-18; and will be enjoying the spiritual blessings God has prepared for us. We will be witnesses of God's unspeakable grace and mercy, through Christ our Lord. Witnesses, that is, of the manifold wisdom of God, to the principalities and powers (spirit beings) in the heavenlies.
Read Ephesians chapts 1-3.

My understanding of the tribulation, is that practically all the world (except believing Israelites) will be deceived by "the beast" and worship him. In the middle of the 7 year period, when he is impowered by Satan (who, along with his angels, have been cast down to earth), he will persecute the saints of Israel.

Firstfruits
Mar 29th 2008, 06:37 AM
How do you prepare when everyone that worships the beast is likely to betray you, even brother betraying brother, etc?

Mt 10:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, And the father the child: And the children shall rise up against their parents, And cause them to be put to death.
Mt 24:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

When you meet those that worship the beast and whose names are not in the book of life, you realise it is not just food that will have to contend with. What you own will in reality belong to the beast, and those that belong to the beast will betray you.

We according to Jesus will not be gathered until the last day, the day of the Lord, so if we are alive at that time there will be no escape.

third hero
Mar 29th 2008, 09:26 AM
Vinsight, you have tapped into a truth here that is more critical than I know how to express. I know that no Pre-Tribber desires to be a help to the Church being deceived and they would be the first to say they wish to be faithful to the Bible. And, to be totally honest, the ones who are deeply involved enough in their beliefs to do something like participate in a forum like this are usually at least aware of other theories out there like Post-Trib, so when the time comes, I could easily see those people realizing that they were simply mistaken, no problem.

My greatest concern is the huge number of people in today’s American Church who participate in “pop” Christianity. Paul talks in II Thessalonians 2 about "the falling away". When I realized how Post-Trib fits together with the Antichrist scenario, it was absolutely terrifying to consider the prospect of the "falling away".

It would be the same as the Normandy D-Day invasion. The Nazis were convinced of two fatally false beliefs: (1) The Allies would land at Calais because that's where the English Channel is the narrowest, and (2) The Allies would only land in good weather. When the Allies landed at Normandy in the middle of stormy weather, the German troops at Normandy pleaded with Berlin to move the Nazi tank divisions from Calais to Normandy to help repel the invasion. Hitler and his general staff were still smugly convinced that the invasion would be at Calais in good weather and assumed that the Normandy "skirmishes" were not to be taken seriously. By the time they realized their mistake, the Allies were already entrenched and the Nazis lost the initiative for the rest of the war.

I'm not suggesting that the Church is at risk of "losing" the war. Obviously, we're on the winning side. But I just wonder how much unnecessary damage the Antichrist will be able to do because of believers who don't ID him for who he is because of not being “raptured”. And how many lost people around the world will believe Christianity to be fatally discredited because we had it all “wrong” and will jump aboard the Islamic bandwagon and whistle a happy tune all the way to the place where they get their Mark of the Beast?

I do need to clarify something. When I speak of the "falling away" or "the apostasy", and my concerns about it in light of Post-Tribulationism + Islam's Mahdi, I'm not talking about people like us who are fully cognizant of such information. I'm talking about our current culture of "pop" Christianity. Today (at least in the USA) it's "cool" to be a "Christian". Everybody goes around with crosses hanging from their neck (even while they're in bed with the lover of the week or buying the weekend drug supply from the dealer on the street corner). I'm talking about people who will listen to preachers like John Hagee who thunder to overjoyed congregations about the evil in today's world and how awful it's going to be during the Tribulation, the whole time thinking to themselves "at least I don't have to worry about it". I'm talking about people who go to Michael W. Smith and Stephen Curtis Chapman concerts because all their friends are going. I'm talking about people who decided to join the church their wife has been dragging them to because "it'll probably be a good business decision anyway". I'm talking about people who advertise in the local Christian Yellow Pages because it'll get them more business (and if they have to sign some "meaningless confession card" to get in there, then it's a good business decision anyway). I'm talking about "preachers" who are starting new churches on every street corner because it's "cool" these days to be a Christian and they want to get in on the glut of tithes while the money is still there. I'm talking about people who listen to the local Christian radio station because it's "safe for the entire family" (and if it happens to talk about Jesus in the process, then that's probably OK too). I'm talking about people who get angry when some radical judge wants to take "In God We Trust" off our money or "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance and yet the same people go around not even knowing if it's originally from the Bible or not. (It's not, by the way.)

There are more people than I want to have to even think about in this world and even here in the USA who are Christians because it's "cool". That's "pop" Christianity. Well, my friends, "pop" Christianity's days are numbered. And those are the ones who I get frightened for when I think about what's coming. I'm confident that my faith can stand, because when it starts happening, it'll only confirm the Truth in the Bible that I'm already familiar with. But I am uniquely blessed with this knowledge, as are most of you. What about the others who don't know any better and who's preachers don't know any better?

My own preacher has no interest in this stuff. He's preaching an admittedly excellent series on the "Kingdom of God" and how we need to take our own city for the "Kingdom". He's got everybody pumped up about how he wants OUR church to be known, "not for what we do on Sundays but what we do Monday thru Saturday"! He wants the whole city to see what a great church he's got. (And I think he's honestly very sincere about wanting to win souls, too.) But he's only focusing on the trees. He's missing the forest. And consequently the rest of the congregation is too, for the most part. That's OK for now, while it's safe to be an American Christian. What about the day that everybody says is coming, when it's not safe anymore, but nobody seems to be doing anything about it BECAUSE THEY THINK THEY WON'T HAVE TO FACE IT?????????????

Luke,
Try as I may, I could not make this point more clearly than you just did. Thank you.

Moreover, this is yet another wrinkle that has to be addressed and dealt with if we are going to create a comprehensive plan on how to defend ourselves and survive during the Great Tribulation, if we are going to be the ones who face it. You see, we have a myriad of dilemmas that must be addressed, and even when we addresss all of these, there will be others that will undoubtedly pop up, and we mnust have a plan to address them. This is why this thread is so important. It deals with the one thing that most of Christiandom does not want to bring up, let alone deal with. Well, the veil is lifted, and we must face this foreseen enemy, whether we like it or not.

third hero
Mar 29th 2008, 09:41 AM
Is it a sin to take the life of another in times of war? I was listening to a Rabi teaching on the 10 commandments just yesterday, he said that in the original language the proper translation should have been "Thou shalt not murder" not, "Thou shalt not kill" as we see in most translations. There is a difference between murdering and killing. My DH is in the military and in a combat situation there are killings, does that make the soldiers murderers?

IN the OT, when soldiers went out to war, when they returned, they were to consecrate themselves for 7 days, to purify themselves from the fires of war. The acts during war was not held against them, because the weight fell on their leaders. If the leaders wage war for the right reasons, then they were exonerated, but in cases where the leadership was greedy and selfish, the blood of the slain was not on the soldiers' heads. No, the blame went squarely on the heads of the leadership that sent them. That is why David was punished for Uriah's death, and not Joab, who executed David's order.

Is it murder? In the truest sense, if the Beast wages war against us, then no. However, it is the taking of one's life, and it should never be acceptible to just say "slay all you like". These are human lives here, and if we have to slay those who seek to destroy us, then at least do so with fear and mourning. I can not say that taking of lives is Godly, even if it will be necessary. I can not say that. I know that when the time comes, we may have to take their lives, meaning the lives of those seking to kill off all of us, but we must approach this with respect for God's will, and for our human morality. Yes this will be war, but we have to keep our humanity as well.

It is my intention to show all of us that we must not be so light in our way of thinking as to pass off the taking of human lives, no matter what condition their souls are, as being acceptible. It is not. God did not say to us, kill and spill much blood. Our primary purpose will still be to spread the Gospel, even in conditions as drastic as those of the Great Tribulation. We are not warmongers, nor are we mercinaries, that we take joy in the shedding of blood. I understand that it may end up being necessary, but it is only a LAST RESORT, for the protection of the brethern while escaping, and not for any other reason. If I were a leader of a safehaven, this would be my rule, because this condition is the only one in which I can face Lord Jesus with confidence that I have done the right thing. Killing for any other reason is murder, and should not be condoaned, or tolerated.

third hero
Mar 29th 2008, 09:49 AM
Luke,

If we were given a choice to take the mob and have food, shelter, medical care and all the necessities of life to survive physically or reject the mob and suffer hunger, thirst, sicknesses without the physical necessities to survive physically, it would be a difficult choice especially for us parents and grandparents where our children and grandchildren are concerned.

I saw a movie in Church sometime in the 1970s that showed entire families, including babies and small children who didn't get to go in the Rapture but were left behind to face antichrist and the GT.

One family I remember, the mother had turned to Christ and was born again, which was a crime according to the new antichrist laws of the land.
Instead of going directly after this new babe in Christ, antichrist and his followers went after her family. The first thing to happen, the husband lost his good paying job as CEO of a corporation when he wouldn't divorce his wife. Nor could he get another job that would pay enough for his family to have little more than a few slices of bread a day for his family. He had to leave his fine home with tennis courts, swimming pools, servants, etc. He couldn't afford the monthly electric and gas bills. His neighbors didn't want he and his family living in their neighborhood anyway.

Oh what shame that man suffered. Just to think a few months before, he was the richest man in the neighborhood and the entire city. Now he was an outcast because his wife had turned to the Lord and refused the motb and she had warned him not to take the motb or he would suffer eternally in the lake of fire.

The man loved his wife and she did put the fear of God in him for awhile and he refused to take the motb and be eternally lost without any hope. But the time came when his family had no food, no place to live. And his baby was deathly ill from malnutrition. It hadn't had any milk for days. He couldn't take it any longer. He had to go find help.

He armed himself with his gun that he hid inside of his coat. He was going to where there was milk, food and medicine and he was coming back with it for his family, one way or the other.

He was greeted at the market place with two well-dressed gentlemen who helped him shop. They learned about his sick hungry baby and his wife back in an old farm house without any heat or electricity. They offered to help and provide him good shelter for his family and a good paying job so he could support his family well like he use to. The only catch, he would have to take the motb. So he took it.

But according to Revelation 13, no one receives the motb without first worshipping the dragon, the first beast and the image of the first beast. Those who don't worship the dragon, the first beast or the image of the first beast are those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. They are killed and are not offered the motb.

I do believe that things will get worse physically for believers all over the world before Christ returns. What do I do?

I'm 67 years old, not too good at running and hiding from those who might try to harm me. I suppose the only thing left for me is to trust the Lord as I have done these 41 years of serving Him. He hasn't failed me yet. I will just place my hand in His and everything will be alright.

Shirley

Shirley,
this is the reason why I am bringing this subject up. This is why we need to get our heads together, and figure out a comprehensive means of surviving the Greatest period of human suffering ever. Do you want to have that man take th MOTB? What if there weree some alternatives? What if some Christians figured out a way to give the people a means of surviving, at least until their bases are found out. Wouldn't that be enough of a reason to plan this thing out? Do you want to see tragedies as you have just described happen? I don't. And unfortunately, even though we willl be prepared, these tragedies will happen. We can limit the amount of destructive force the MOTB will have by becoming the counterstrike against it.

I hope you understand now why this topic is so important. And I hope you understand why we need your 67 year old brain to help us. We need the wisdom and experiences that is stored up in your mind to help us figure out the best way to survive the unsurvivable.

Please help us. Give us some suggestions. I know you have some, because you would not have come up with a scenario that will probably happen if you did not. As a matter of fact, I think I will say this:

To all who are participating, do nnot just give it your brainwaves. Commit this thread to prayer, and ask of the Lord. He will help us, I just know it.

third hero
Mar 29th 2008, 09:51 AM
This discussion is not consistant with New Testament doctrine. How can this be edifying? .

SImple answer.

Read Revelation, especially chapters 12-14. Then read Matthew 24:15-28. Then read Daniel 7. Tell me how this thread, after reading all of these scriptures, is NOT edifying.

third hero
Mar 29th 2008, 10:02 AM
MY COMMENTS: I know it is a hypothetical question, but I can't give it much thought, for we, as believers and members of the eccclesia/church body of Christ will have been caught away to the heavenlies, as we read in 1 Cor. 15:51-56, 1 Thes. 4:13-18; and will be enjoying the spiritual blessings God has prepared for us. We will be witnesses of God's unspeakable grace and mercy, through Christ our Lord. Witnesses, that is, of the manifold wisdom of God, to the principalities and powers (spirit beings) in the heavenlies.
Read Ephesians chapts 1-3.

My understanding of the tribulation, is that practically all the world (except believing Israelites) will be deceived by "the beast" and worship him. In the middle of the 7 year period, when he is impowered by Satan (who, along with his angels, have been cast down to earth), he will persecute the saints of Israel.

I understand what you are saying, and your views are shared by some who are participating here in this thread. However, I must urge you with this:

Hope for the best, be prepared for the worst.

Remember, the original 12 was not spared death when they brought forth the Gospel. Our Leader, Lord Jesus was not spared death either. Who are we, who profess to follow those who laid down their lives for the simple truth, to be better than they, that we may not be tested in the fires of tribulation and death.

Now, that is all that I will say on that issue, for this thread is not do discuss whether I am right or wrong. This is a thread to help those who believe in the posibility of the Pre-trib POV being wrong, and the worst possible scenario would be inflicted upon all of us.

The best way of putting this together is to say this: What is you are wrong? What if everything concerning the end times that was taught to you end up being false? What then?

For those of us who hold to the post-trib way of thinking, the question is not much different. What do we do? The Beast is revealed, now what?

It is thinking like this that causes a person, no matter which side they fall on, to become more prepared, just in case their POV is wrong. If I am wrong, then we have nothing to worry about. If I am right, then we have EVERYTHING to worry about.

Hope for the best, be prepared for the worst. This is the purpose of this thread. So, I urge you to possibly think about what we are discussing here, and then add your input. As you can already tell, it is as deep as the craters in the grand canyon, and we have only scratched the surface on the potential problems that we would have to face in a situation like that. We are now only at the point of figuring out the variables of the Great Tribulation. We have not yet figured out a solution yet.

Even if you do not believe in the Post-trib model of the end times, you can still contribute, even while holding to your pre-trib POV. IN the long run, you will appreciate what I am triyng to have done here, and maybe, in case you are wrong, you will not be "left behind".while the rest of us are doing the business that God gave us.

Merton
Mar 29th 2008, 10:37 AM
Hi

Joh 11:5 And Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.
Joh 11:6 Therefore, when He heard that he is sick, then, indeed, He remained in the place where He was two days.
Joh 11:7 Then after this He said to the disciples, Let us go to Judea again.
Joh 11:8 The disciples said to Him, Rabbi, just now the Jews were seeking to stone You, and do You go there again?
Joh 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble because he sees the light of the world.
Joh 11:10 But if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles because the light is not in him.


Is not Christs word a lamp unto out feet?

Each one has to come to hear Christ speaking to them as to what each should do, and it may be not very long before one does it.

One has to turn aside from the voices in the world, even those of their brothers and sisters and listen to the Lords voice which in seeking, most often begins with correction of ones own heart and any necessary responses to that or one may be like James ch 1:22-24.


Now I wonder how many believers of neigbouring towns to New Orleans made preparations to help the people coming out of that town.

As it happens many a time the believer who is in fellowship with God does make preparations for the future without even realizing what they are doing and why, but it is the Lord who lays it on the heart of His people.

If it was that the Lord would tell us everything that lays ahead of us then we truly would have become the friend of God in all things, but it is more usual that when knowing the future, and being in a transitionary state from what we were to what we shall become, that we will either add to or take away from, and interfere, in the Lords plans for our life and the lives of others.

Therefore we ought seek to please the Lord by holding fast to what He has said to us and remaining faithful to Him in it as He has thus far led us to be and do, and anything that He will lead us into we shall begin in.

Many of those things arise in the heart from the Lord without any effort or thought to bring them up. Our own thoughts out of fear from reading the Bible is not the Lords voice but can be a motivator to asking him. I know that we are prone to worry about things that we know nothing about, but as children we should rest in the Lords care knowing that He cares more for us and other people than we do and He is not slack in anything, as we may be.

Many things which I have sought the Lord about are things which the Lord laid upon my heart to ask Him about in the first place and in some things which I have thought to ask of Him He has said according to this fashion--

Joh 21:22 Jesus said to him, If I desire him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me


Merton.

Firstfruits
Mar 29th 2008, 11:14 AM
I understand what you are saying, and your views are shared by some who are participating here in this thread. However, I must urge you with this:

Hope for the best, be prepared for the worst.

Remember, the original 12 was not spared death when they brought forth the Gospel. Our Leader, Lord Jesus was not spared death either. Who are we, who profess to follow those who laid down their lives for the simple truth, to be better than they, that we may not be tested in the fires of tribulation and death.

Now, that is all that I will say on that issue, for this thread is not do discuss whether I am right or wrong. This is a thread to help those who believe in the posibility of the Pre-trib POV being wrong, and the worst possible scenario would be inflicted upon all of us.

The best way of putting this together is to say this: What is you are wrong? What if everything concerning the end times that was taught to you end up being false? What then?

For those of us who hold to the post-trib way of thinking, the question is not much different. What do we do? The Beast is revealed, now what?

It is thinking like this that causes a person, no matter which side they fall on, to become more prepared, just in case their POV is wrong. If I am wrong, then we have nothing to worry about. If I am right, then we have EVERYTHING to worry about.

Hope for the best, be prepared for the worst. This is the purpose of this thread. So, I urge you to possibly think about what we are discussing here, and then add your input. As you can already tell, it is as deep as the craters in the grand canyon, and we have only scratched the surface on the potential problems that we would have to face in a situation like that. We are now only at the point of figuring out the variables of the Great Tribulation. We have not yet figured out a solution yet.

Even if you do not believe in the Post-trib model of the end times, you can still contribute, even while holding to your pre-trib POV. IN the long run, you will appreciate what I am triyng to have done here, and maybe, in case you are wrong, you will not be "left behind".while the rest of us are doing the business that God gave us.

If what is believed is false, then it would mean that what Jesus said would be fulfilled could not and Jesus said that all things must be fulfilled.

Mt 24:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mt 24:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mt 24:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mt 24:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Rev 22:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

danield
Mar 29th 2008, 07:09 PM
Well I just wanted to clearly show everyone that this is not the answer. As silly as it sounds I would hate to see anyone get caught up in something like these people from Russia who are held up in a cave. I know some people get really excited when many events that are foretold in the bible are unfolding in front of our very eyes, but we all need to use reason when studying this stuff. I think this is a great thread to formulate a plan of action in case we are indeed the generation that sees the coming of our Lord, but we should also note than it is indeed just a plan and not the actual action of hiding in a cave! Buy some freeze dried food, buy a shot gun to help you hunt, learn to grow and make your own food just as your great grandmother did, but don’t go hide yourself in a cave! I think it is important to know that we should not have fear of anything that may come our way in life because the Lord will always be with us. It may be that we are even diagnosed with cancer and face our own mortality but we should still have no fear because we know our lord transcends death to take away its sting and paradise awaits us as our reward!!

God bless all

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8VMMPLG0&show_article=1

third hero
Mar 29th 2008, 08:08 PM
I am currently studying the link about arkhaven. Afterwards, I will give you some ideas that I have come up with.

third hero
Mar 29th 2008, 08:42 PM
I realy like Arkhaven's philosophy on surviving the Great Tribulation. And I would like To impliment a lot of their policies. They even have a policy that would ease my mind when it comes to a military presence.

However, There is one thing that I do not agree with them on. I do believe that as horrible it is to have to be armed to defend ourselves, I do believe that it will be necessary. And the only reason why I believe in that concept is because if the governments surround the safehavens, we need at least a fighting chance of having some people survive and escape.

A problem arises when we figure into this equation the idea of people actually going Benedict Arnold and betray the groups by telling the Governments the whereabouts of a few safehavens, just as Firstfruits pointed out. If we ARE armed, then those traitors could turn those guns against us.

But here is what I had in mind. Mind you, I have been thinking about this for the last 9 years.

The Amish and the Mennonites philosophies concerning growing and making our own food and supplies will have to be adopted by all of us. Simply storing up food will not be enough. Plus, we may have to feed thousands, or even hundreds of thousands, and storing up enough food for all of those people is not possible. There is one thing to store up grain, but another altogether to store up meat and other foods that we will need to survive. Whole communities will have to be built for farming. Some will have to take care of the animals, some with the crops, and others with the other needs of the community. The idea of "My" or "Mine" will undoubtedly be changed, mainly because the only "mine" that can be claimed are family members and clothes. The housing units that we will have to use will either be like tents, or mobile homes. These units have to be light enough that when we are attacked, they can be packed up and able to be moved fast.

Everyone who would be admitted into the safehaven must sign a contract of conduct, which is basically all of thed tenents that Lord Jesus Himself established for all of us, the code of the NT. THose who fail to do so will not be admitted.

Positions of leadership have to be established, with checks and balances that give oversight to everyone in position of leadership. Positions like:

Town elder- the leader of the entire safehaven

Tribunal of Bishops- a group of people who are very knowledgable in scripture and have been proven to be the "most obedient" to God.

Captains -people in charge of various duties around the safehaven.

The town elder will be elected, as well as the Tribunal of Bishops. The leaders will have to give account of their actions not only to God, but also to the members of the safehaven, because this kind of oversight, in a situation as grave as the Great Tribulation, is unfortunately necessary.

Groups will be formed based on their spiritual gifts.

Groups who are potent in intercession will become intercessors, who will pray for not only the safehaven, but also the believers who are in need of what we have to offer them, and even the unbelievers who still would have a chance to be saved. Shifts will be created, and a prayer blanket of 24/7 will have to be in place. Without prayer, the safehaven will fall before long.

Everyone will undoubtedly pray, because we all need to.

Everyone will be assigned a certain duty as far as farming is concerned. Fair is fair, and everyone has to do something.

Those gifted with missionary gifts will be sent out onto the mission field, saturated in prayer.

I believe that church services will be necessary as well, because even in the fire, the people should still praise God. He is God, after all!

I have more, but I want to see what you all think. What should be changed? What aspect am I missing? What would you do to improve on this bare-bones plan? What say you?

tango
Mar 29th 2008, 09:32 PM
Interesting ideas, but not sure how you'll defend your growing crops against a hungry mob with guns. You can flee with your life but you'll leave behind the crops, which means you still won't have any food.

I think we're going to have to trust God totally and fall back on absolutely nothing we can do for ourselves.

jesus-disciple
Mar 29th 2008, 09:56 PM
I have been thinking about this for a while, and it is hard to prepare fully for what may occur because we do not know exactly how it will occur. I will get to this later, but I listened to an interesting clip on focus on the family this past week. It was the first segment of a three part interview on how a lady who survived the German occupation of Denmark. It was so fascinating because she went in depth on how their entire life was completely turned upside down.

They did everything they could to save the Jews that they knew by hiding them in farms in the country side, and making up false ID’s that did not have the “J” printed on them which would identify them as a Jew. If memory serves me, they fabricated a pastor’s identification markings because they were the only men that were allowed to remain on farms. They had mandated all men to go work in factories in Germany. They distributed as many of these false ID’s as they could but so many still had to be exported to the death camps. They did not know for certain exactly where they were going, but the message was given to the Jew’s to that they had to report to a train station with only one bag. They left their house, their car, their livestock, businesses, everything they owned except one bag and given a one way ticket on a train to you know where.

At one point the Germans realized that they had more Jews in hiding, and they took out full page adds in papers that if the Denmark people helped the Jews they would be persecuted just as a Jew themselves and killed instantly, and that is just what happened to those who were caught. She also went into code phrases they used to try to hide things from the Gestapo, but you never knew who was part of the secret police because many of them were people they known prior to the invasion.

She had a book out and I am going to read it when I get the time, but it just reinforced my thoughts on how I could prepare for something like what is described in the bible. I think it is going to be very difficult especially with the advancement of technologies. Just think how many cameras there are now. We can get a speeding ticket in some cities via mail because you car was detected going to fast on the interstate. When the bible says that no one could buy or sale with out the mark of the beast I take it literally because it can be done easily. And with someone as evil as the anti Christ calling the shots he will be much harder on us Christians than Hitler was to the Jews. I just know we can never loose our faith in Christ even if we have to board a train! We just have to remain strong with the Lord!

God Bless!

And have you stopped to think that we will be followed by our internet tracks and cell phone usage? There is even the technology to track body warmth ten feet underground. There will be no hiding.

threebigrocks
Mar 29th 2008, 10:05 PM
Honestly - leave me cold, naked, hungry and in pain. I'll live on faith in His name, fully trusting Him for everything including fufilling His promise to His children that we will not be forsaken.

2 Peter 2:20
Mar 29th 2008, 10:23 PM
Honestly - leave me cold, naked, hungry and in pain. I'll live on faith in His name, fully trusting Him for everything including fufilling His promise to His children that we will not be forsaken.

Agreed...and as a pre-tribber I feel the same way. But if we try to put ourselves in the post-tribber scenario then it becomes harder. If it were me and me only I could accept the cold, naked, hungry and pain but if we were forced to watch our families go through these things then I don't know if I could deal with that. I hope the post-trib view is wrong but just in case I will prepare for those days. Spiritually and phyically!

threebigrocks
Mar 29th 2008, 10:49 PM
Agreed...and as a pre-tribber I feel the same way. But if we try to put ourselves in the post-tribber scenario then it becomes harder. If it were me and me only I could accept the cold, naked, hungry and pain but if we were forced to watch our families go through these things then I don't know if I could deal with that. I hope the post-trib view is wrong but just in case I will prepare for those days. Spiritually and phyically!

I'm of the post-trib camp.

Being of strong spirit and body is important, but in the end it will come down to faith. I too pray that it won't come down to being naked, cold and hungry Lord willing but if it does we will still need to stand on faith alone when body and mind fail.

Merton
Mar 29th 2008, 11:32 PM
Peoples,

Where are your personal assurances from scripture?

I can give you the overall assurances from scripture but my own personal ones are mine alone as each of you will have to seek God for.




Mat 26:51 And, behold, one of those with Jesus, stretching out the hand, drew his sword and struck the slave of the high priest and took off his ear.
Mat 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword shall perish by a sword.
Mat 26:53 Or do you think that I am not able now to call on My Father, and He will place beside Me more than twelve legions of angels?
Mat 26:54 How then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen this way?


What way has God revealed to you??

Merton.

quiet dove
Mar 29th 2008, 11:39 PM
Peoples,

Where are your personal assurances from scripture?

I can give you the overall assurances from scripture but my own personal ones are mine alone as each of you will have to seek God for.

What way has God revealed to you??

Merton.

Mat 6:25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?
Mat 6:26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
Mat 6:27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
Mat 6:28 "So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin;
Mat 6:29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Mat 6:30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
Mat 6:31 "Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'
Mat 6:32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
Mat 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.
Mat 6:34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

Mat 8:20 And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head."

ShirleyFord
Mar 30th 2008, 12:06 AM
Shirley,
this is the reason why I am bringing this subject up. This is why we need to get our heads together, and figure out a comprehensive means of surviving the Greatest period of human suffering ever. Do you want to have that man take th MOTB? What if there weree some alternatives? What if some Christians figured out a way to give the people a means of surviving, at least until their bases are found out. Wouldn't that be enough of a reason to plan this thing out? Do you want to see tragedies as you have just described happen? I don't. And unfortunately, even though we willl be prepared, these tragedies will happen. We can limit the amount of destructive force the MOTB will have by becoming the counterstrike against it.

I hope you understand now why this topic is so important. And I hope you understand why we need your 67 year old brain to help us. We need the wisdom and experiences that is stored up in your mind to help us figure out the best way to survive the unsurvivable.

Please help us. Give us some suggestions. I know you have some, because you would not have come up with a scenario that will probably happen if you did not. As a matter of fact, I think I will say this:

To all who are participating, do nnot just give it your brainwaves. Commit this thread to prayer, and ask of the Lord. He will help us, I just know it.


During this 41 glorious journey with the Lord, I have learned:

"In the world ye shall have tribulation" (John 16:33)

"Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (2 Timothy 3:12)

But God is there all the time. He promised to never leave us or forsake us. And He has been true to His word to me. He is in control.

I've had a gun placed to my head and the trigger pulled over and over. But the shells just wouldn't come out and enter my head and kill me. Nothing wrong with the gun. It fired like it was suppose to when it was removed from my head.

Was I afraid? No, I honestly have to say that at the time that it was happening, I was not the least bit afraid. Such a peace settled over me and such a holy boldness filled me when I declared, "I refuse to turn away from my Jesus."

There is just something about that Name!

His Name has more power than all of the guns and weaponry of this world!


My life has been threatened like that many times for simply being a Christian. But each time, I've seen the hand of God proving who was really in charge of my life.

I grew up on a farm where we raised our own food. We didn't get electricity until I was 6, didn't get indoor plumbing until I was 12, didn't get a television until I was 13, didn't get a phone until I was 15.

So I know how to survive physically without all of the modern conveniences. I know how to plant a garden and harvest it and can vegetables and meats in jars. I know how to milk a cow and churn butter. I know how to raise chickens and kill, dress them and cook them right off the yard. I know about feeding hogs and killing hogs. My husband has actually killed hogs and dressed them. I have helped my mom make sausage on hog killing day and cook cracklings in the old wash pot outside at night in the dead of winter. It was my job when I was little to keep stirring the skin and fat of the hog in the wash pot the night of the hog killing until finally they turned into crisp, crunchy cracklings.


Daddy only had to go to town to buy flour (when he didn't grow his own wheat) and sugar (when he didn't grow his own sugar cane) until I was 16 when he got a job besides his work on the farm that paid him a weekly paycheck. Then is when he and my mom would go to the store every week and buy groceries.


My husband and I own a pine-tree farm about 25 miles from where we now live. We have talked about moving down there and live like we use to when we were growing up since he has retired. But we learned that we couldn't survive living off the land as we did growing up since the goverment now controls much of what one can plant and do on his own land.

Nowhere in the Bible have I read that God instructs us to learn survivalist skills so we can become self-suffient so that we wouldn't be tempted to take the mark of the beast in order to be able to buy the necessities of life to keep us physically alive.

Jesus prayed just before He went to Calvary, "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

So I don't believe that He would have Christians to build a commune away from the world and hibernate there with guns and all kinds of weaponry to fight off the enemy.

Jim Jones and David Karesh already tried that.


But we are to love and help one another at all times. We have the pattern of how NT Christians should be toward one another:

Acts 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.



2 Corinthians 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not. 13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened: 14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality: 15 As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.

danield
Mar 30th 2008, 12:12 AM
Well I just figured out how we can survive! I just made the VERY best raspberry cheese cake I have ever eaten! What I can do is pass around the receipt to everyone and we can barter for goods and services. All you need to do is make that cheese cake and all your worries are behind you! It was that good!:pp

2 Peter 2:20
Mar 30th 2008, 12:33 AM
Well I just figured out how we can survive! I just made the VERY best raspberry cheese cake I have ever eaten! What I can do is pass around the receipt to everyone and we can barter for goods and services. All you need to do is make that cheese cake and all your worries are behind you! It was that good!:pp

All you need to do now is freeze dry it!!

danield
Mar 30th 2008, 12:55 AM
All you need to do now is freeze dry it!!

I just don't think my bartering potential would be as strong if I freeze dried it! :rofl:

Sonshine
Mar 30th 2008, 02:30 AM
IN the OT, when soldiers went out to war, when they returned, they were to consecrate themselves for 7 days, to purify themselves from the fires of war. The acts during war was not held against them, because the weight fell on their leaders. If the leaders wage war for the right reasons, then they were exonerated, but in cases where the leadership was greedy and selfish, the blood of the slain was not on the soldiers' heads. No, the blame went squarely on the heads of the leadership that sent them. That is why David was punished for Uriah's death, and not Joab, who executed David's order.

Is it murder? In the truest sense, if the Beast wages war against us, then no. However, it is the taking of one's life, and it should never be acceptible to just say "slay all you like". These are human lives here, and if we have to slay those who seek to destroy us, then at least do so with fear and mourning. I can not say that taking of lives is Godly, even if it will be necessary. I can not say that. I know that when the time comes, we may have to take their lives, meaning the lives of those seking to kill off all of us, but we must approach this with respect for God's will, and for our human morality. Yes this will be war, but we have to keep our humanity as well.

It is my intention to show all of us that we must not be so light in our way of thinking as to pass off the taking of human lives, no matter what condition their souls are, as being acceptible. It is not. God did not say to us, kill and spill much blood. Our primary purpose will still be to spread the Gospel, even in conditions as drastic as those of the Great Tribulation. We are not warmongers, nor are we mercinaries, that we take joy in the shedding of blood. I understand that it may end up being necessary, but it is only a LAST RESORT, for the protection of the brethern while escaping, and not for any other reason. If I were a leader of a safehaven, this would be my rule, because this condition is the only one in which I can face Lord Jesus with confidence that I have done the right thing. Killing for any other reason is murder, and should not be condoaned, or tolerated.

No argument from me on this. Every human being is precious in God's eyes. To take the life of another would not be easy and I would mourn the loss of a soul. I'd rather see them all accept Christ, but we know that in the last days, after a person has received the mark, they no longer have a chance to make it to heaven, and we will have to defend ourselves and other believers in those days.

Sonshine
Mar 30th 2008, 02:43 AM
I agree that there are preparations that need to be made. I understand what others are saying about putting our faith in God, but preparing doesn't mean we aren't putting our faith in God.

In any preparations we make, there are still going to be times that only God can help us through.

Like you, God has been dealing with me on the issue of preparing. I've been learning how to raise food and prepare it. I'm learning how to do things like the pioneers did.

God has put me in touch with others that God has called to prepare. I believe God is putting together a remnant that he has called to prepare, but not everyone is being called to it, or if they are, they aren't ready to hear it yet.

I met a man a couple of weeks ago, while ordering chickens, that God had been telling to prepare. He said that he no longer believed in chance meetings, but that God is bringing the remnant together.

Do I have anything to add to what you have already said? No. But did feel led to share with you that God is calling on a remnant to prepare, so you aren't alone in this.

Continue to seek God and He'll show you what your part is in the end times.

Truthinlove
Mar 30th 2008, 09:07 AM
Even today, we cannot just sit around and let God feed us like the sparrows. He gives us wisdom, strength, etc., but we still have to go find a job, we have to go to work everyday, we have to spend our money wisely at the grocery store, we have to cook our food, and so forth and so on. God does provide, absolutely, but it's up to us to use the provisions wisely. During the Tribulation, He will provide, just as Shirley says, but it is going to be up to us to act on those provisions and to make the most of them. If He chooses to provide for us miraculously, then great, but to sit around expecting it seems to me like squandering the resources that are right in front of us.


Well said Luke. We have personal responsibility. We should have complete faith in God, but he expects us to be responsible as well.

Your last sentence reminds me of that story where there is a flood and a person is sitting on their rooftop doing nothing except waiting for God to save him. Boat after boat keeps coming by for him and he refuses, saying he is waiting for God to save him. He ends up dying in the flood and in heaven he asks God why He did not save him. God then tells him that he sent several boats for him, but he refused to get in them.

Truthinlove
Mar 30th 2008, 09:23 AM
Third Hero,
Thanks for this thread! It has been very thought-provoking. I have thought about this in the past since I am pre-wrath, but haven't given it a lot of thought lately. I don't know if we can have it all figured out, but we can be prepared to the best of our ability and place all our trust in God!

One question for you.....

As far as the safe havens that you have mentioned, how will they not be found by the wicked?? We are talking about communities with hundreds or thousands of believers, correct?
With satellites and the technology we have, I can't see how that can be kept secret?? Not to mention, the technology is will be even MORE advanced during the GT.

Merton
Mar 30th 2008, 09:58 AM
Mat 6:25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?
Mat 6:26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
Mat 6:27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
Mat 6:28 "So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin;
Mat 6:29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Mat 6:30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
Mat 6:31 "Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'
Mat 6:32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
Mat 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.
Mat 6:34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

Mat 8:20 And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head."





Yes me too.

I am not against people making provision for the future however, but it is given to one, one thing and another to another.

1Ki 17:8 And the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,
1Ki 17:9 Arise, get thee to Zarephath, which belongeth to Zidon, and dwell there: behold, I have commanded a widow woman there to sustain thee.
1Ki 17:10 So he arose and went to Zarephath. And when he came to the gate of the city, behold, the widow woman was there gathering of sticks: and he called to her, and said, Fetch me, I pray thee, a little water in a vessel, that I may drink.
1Ki 17:11 And as she was going to fetch it, he called to her, and said, Bring me, I pray thee, a morsel of bread in thine hand.
1Ki 17:12 And she said, As the LORD thy God liveth, I have not a cake, but a handful of meal in a barrel, and a little oil in a cruse: and, behold, I am gathering two sticks, that I may go in and dress it for me and my son, that we may eat it, and die.
1Ki 17:13 And Elijah said unto her, Fear not; go and do as thou hast said: but make me thereof a little cake first, and bring it unto me, and after make for thee and for thy son.
1Ki 17:14 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel, The barrel of meal shall not waste, neither shall the cruse of oil fail, until the day that the LORD sendeth rain upon the earth.
1Ki 17:15 And she went and did according to the saying of Elijah: and she, and he, and her house, did eat many days.
1Ki 17:16And the barrel of meal wasted not, neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of the LORD, which he spoke by Elijah.


I would not defend my lot with the gun. That is a real no no.

Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Psa 34:7 The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.

Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore, be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
Mat 10:17 But beware of men. For they will betray you to sanhedrins, and they will flog you in their synagogues.
Mat 10:18 And also you will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them and to the nations.
Mat 10:19 But when they deliver you up, do not be anxious how or what you should say, for it is given to you in that hour what you should say.
Mat 10:20 For you are not the ones speaking, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
Mat 10:21 But brother will betray brother to death, and the father his child. And children will rise up against parents and will put them to death.
Mat 10:22 And you will be hated by all on account of My name, but the one enduring to the end shall be kept safe.
Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For truly I say to you, In no way will you have finished the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.
Act 21:10 And we remaining more days, a certain prophet from Judea named Agabus came down.
Act 21:11 And coming to us, and taking Paul's girdle, and binding his hands and feet, he said, The Holy Spirit says these things: In Jerusalem the Jews will bind in this way the man whose girdle this is, and will deliver him up into the hands of the nations.
Act 21:12 And when we heard these things, both we and those of the place begged him not to go up to Jerusalem.
Act 21:13 But Paul answered, What are you doing, weeping and breaking my heart? For I not only am ready to be bound, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 21:14 And he not being persuaded, we were silent, saying, The will of the Lord be done.
Merton.

Firstfruits
Mar 30th 2008, 10:38 AM
Peoples,

Where are your personal assurances from scripture?

I can give you the overall assurances from scripture but my own personal ones are mine alone as each of you will have to seek God for.




Mat 26:51 And, behold, one of those with Jesus, stretching out the hand, drew his sword and struck the slave of the high priest and took off his ear.
Mat 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword shall perish by a sword.
Mat 26:53 Or do you think that I am not able now to call on My Father, and He will place beside Me more than twelve legions of angels?
Mat 26:54 How then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen this way?


What way has God revealed to you??

Merton.

Mt 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mt 24:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

2 Thess 1:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

2 Tim 2:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Tim 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Firstfruits
Mar 30th 2008, 10:43 AM
Peoples,

Where are your personal assurances from scripture?

I can give you the overall assurances from scripture but my own personal ones are mine alone as each of you will have to seek God for.




Mat 26:51 And, behold, one of those with Jesus, stretching out the hand, drew his sword and struck the slave of the high priest and took off his ear.
Mat 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword shall perish by a sword.
Mat 26:53 Or do you think that I am not able now to call on My Father, and He will place beside Me more than twelve legions of angels?
Mat 26:54 How then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen this way?


What way has God revealed to you??

Merton.

The promise to those that endure.

Mt 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mt 24:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

2 Thess 1:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

2 Tim 2:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Tim 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Jas 1:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Jas 5:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

quiet dove
Mar 30th 2008, 04:16 PM
Yes me too.

I am not against people making provision for the future however, but it is given to one, one thing and another to another.

Merton.

I am not against making provision either, but I think of it more along the lines of things like Katrina, or possibly some type of act of war against the States. Basically, the hard times that can come at anytime, tribulation having started or not.

I mean my instinct would be to prepare for such situations, but I figure if thats what Jesus wanted me to do, He would also give me a way to do. I mean He didn't just tell Noah to built a boat and wish him luck, He gave Noah instructions and provided for him to accomplish his task.

covenant mom
Mar 31st 2008, 12:46 AM
Now, you see the dilemma that I have been thinking about. There is a plethora of potential UnChristianlike things that we will have to face if/and/or when the beast shows himself.

Consider this.

-The Beast will wage war aginst us.
-We will not be able to live in a house, go to a grocery store, or get anything anywhere without that cursed mark.
-If we do nothing, starvation and sicknes will inevitably overtake us.

Survival ends up being a priority. It will be very difficult, at best, to live and maintain your relationship with Lord Jesus. But more to the point, we will probably have to sin in order to survive. And that's where the problem comes in.

Elders needing medication. Do we just let them die?
Children and families are starving and homeless. Do we let them be?
mobs are overtaking our brethern. Do we do nothing?

What do we do? Our options are limited.

Moreover, there's yet another wrinkle to be ironed out.

Jesus warns us through John that those who gather for cvaptivity will themselves be captured, and those who kill by the sword will also die that way. Then he says that this calls for patience and perserverance of the saints. Here's the scripture in question:

If any man have an ear, let him hear.
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. Rev 13:9-10

Now, my interpretation could be wrong, and I am hoping that I am, but it is that those who gather into captivity, or create safehavens in order to shelter and protect the believers, will themselves become captives. ANd those that fight against the beast would themselves be killed by him.

NOW WHAT?! If we create safehavens, they will be discovered. If we raise up armies to at least defend ourselves, we will be slain, and defeated. It seems hopeless.

I am not the type to throw in the towel before the fight even starts, but I feel as though we seriously need to see what exactly we are facing in the near, or not to near future.... if my POV is correct. Because if what I am seeing is correct, the three and a half years of the Great Tribulation is nothing short of ABSOLUTE HELL, the like which may not have even been seen by the original 11! It's that BAD!

Any ideas?

Hmmm, my translation of that passage in Rev 13 says, "destined". That has made me think that if you are going to be killed you are & if you are meant to survive you will. I know that's kindda simple thinking, but it makes sense. Like you said, God is going to spare some believers since there are those who are alive @ His coming.

These questions you have posed are ones that I have thought about alot. I've pictured where my family could hide out & what we would eat & things like that. I think that the Lord will speak to those who are seeking His guidance @ that time & give them what they need. By that I mean, if we are going to starve to death, He will give us the grace to die w/ hope of seeing Him soon. If we are to eat, He will provide manna in the wilderness via supernatural means or physical provisions such as game to hunt. I tend to believe (though I doubt I can be dogmatic about it) that those who have lived a Rev 3:10 kind of life...He will keep safe in that time. I could be wrong. None of us deserve special protection b/c we all sin. Who knows how those who survive will do so...only I do know they will have had help from God to do so.

If you feel led to stock up food or prepare in anyway, by all means follow that leading. Nobody can question what God leads you to do. That's btw you & Him. IMO, it's not like it goes against anything in His Word to be prepared for hard times. I've seen Christians look down on those who want to prepare by using the verse about "don't worry what you will eat & drink..." but I think that is off & misuse of the verse.

covenant mom
Mar 31st 2008, 12:48 AM
BTW, I see that some of you have used the verse I just mentioned "don't worry about what you drink..." & I didn't mean my comment against you. I hadn't read that far ahead to see that. I have heard that used before in a hateful way against those who prepare, but I see that is not what was meant by Quiet Dove or anyone else on here.

ShirleyFord
Mar 31st 2008, 02:09 AM
BTW, I see that some of you have used the verse I just mentioned "don't worry about what you drink..." & I didn't mean my comment against you. I hadn't read that far ahead to see that. I have heard that used before in a hateful way against those who prepare, but I see that is not what was meant by Quiet Dove or anyone else on here.

I live close to the beach and hurricanes are a threat to our area every summer and fall. And we have been hit in our area by a few of them. So I know first hand how important it is to prepare as best we can for these storms.

I use to worry about what I would eat and feed my 2 children when there was absolutely nothing in the house to eat. I really worried about shelter for them when we were going to evicted the next day with nowhere to go. I really worried where I would get the money to buy their clothes when they needed clothes. I use to make myself sick with fear and worry.

But on February 12, 1973 when I was down on my knees praying my heart out to God and asking Him, "How will I feed my children? How will I provide shelter for them? How will I get clothes for them? How can I possibly meet all of their needs as a mother should do?", God gave me Matthew 6:25-31. I had never read that Scripture before. It was God's answer to all my questions, fears and worries.

Now this doesn't mean that we just lay back and wait on God to drop what we need from heaven. I work 5 and sometimes 6 days a week during income tax season.

I just thought about this tonight, nowhere in the Bible that I'm aware of does any true believer in the OT or the NT die from the starvation. But we do find King David saying this:

Ps 37:25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.


God didn't tell those who perished in Noah's flood to prepare for the flood by helping Noah build the ark. He commanded Noah only to build the ark. In fact, nowhere do we read that his sons or wife helped him in the building of the ark those 120 years.

The reason they were destroyed in the flood was because they refused to believe the gospel that Noah preached to them and turn to God to save them. If any of them had believed Noah, they surely would have been allowed into the ark before God shut the door and the flood waters began to fall.

As QD has already said, God gave Noah specific detailed instructions on exactly what he was to do to prepare for the coming flood. He hasn't given us any such instructions about being prepared for the future except to be spiritually prepared.

And btw, I have never been homeless, never went an entire day without food, never has there ever been a time when we didn't have enough clothes. And I never asked anyone for anything except God! He is faithful to His word. Our two children are now 46 and 42.


Shirley

quiet dove
Mar 31st 2008, 02:24 AM
BTW, I see that some of you have used the verse I just mentioned "don't worry about what you drink..." & I didn't mean my comment against you. I hadn't read that far ahead to see that. I have heard that used before in a hateful way against those who prepare, but I see that is not what was meant by Quiet Dove or anyone else on here.

No worries, if you commented I either didn't see it or forgot, I read so many post I don't know where that particular file is. :lol: My filing skills aren't to good.:lol:

Edit: Ok, I see it now, but still, no worries.

quiet dove
Mar 31st 2008, 02:36 AM
And btw, I have never been homeless, never went an entire day without food, never has there ever been a time when we didn't have enough clothes. And I never asked anyone for anything except God! He is faithful to His word.
Shirley

AMEN!! :)

Amazedgrace21
Mar 31st 2008, 04:35 AM
And btw, I have never been homeless, never went an entire day without food, never has there ever been a time when we didn't have enough clothes. And I never asked anyone for anything except God! He is faithful to His word. Our two children are now 46 and 42.


Shirley

Wonderful post and such truth to these words Sister!

I want to add the same sentiments from another perspective, I have been homeless, had to take my four children and leave with little but the clothes on my back, no money, no food, hurt and under horrendous circumstances..

But Gods faithful and we must trust him..because often in these circumstances this is all we have is His faithfulness.

The DVI shelter had no room available when I called before I left.. a few hours later a new site had been cleared by the Dept of Welfare for occupancy..a home left by a man for this purpose in his estate.

I was the first to be allowed in..it was unfurnised..while I was settling in, overwhelmed and trying to comfort my children..a truck pulled up..in it was furniture brought by folks I didn't even Know..among the donated furniture was a set of bunkbeds..they were the ones my father had given my children when they were small and I had donated to another agency two years earlier..their initials still engraved on the posts.

There had been a freezer in the basement and it was still full of good food..each day brought another need and that need met just by prayer alone.God knew what I would need and it was there at the moment it was.

I personally believe this is what we may count on when it comes to the concerns of the OP if we find ourselves in this mess..why we can see how hard it is going to be if we stay focused on Revelation alone, but if we embrace everything God has done for us, from the begining, while we were in the womb..He was providing for us.It is this knowledge that will be our provision.


Elders needing medication. Do we just let them die?
Children and families are starving and homeless. Do we let them be?
mobs are overtaking our brethern. Do we do nothing?

What do we do? Our options are limited.



This is occuring in places around the world today, this world is already a very cruel place for some as it has been for many throughout the centuries..it should remind us what we do have and that while we may not have options over what becomes of our mortal lives, evil is not going to prevail in the end and we have much in Jesus to know we can count on.

This is what we can bring to others in those days..the ones who have not yeilded themselves to the beast and his mark..we can be their sanctuary with the truth of God by example of allowing Him to be our conduct regardless of what going on all around us or to us..

I recall so many stories of the concentration camps, POW's, missionaries, the early Christian martyers as examples of horror's that went beyond 3-7 yrs in humanity..we who have Christ, always have no need of options.

Medically I can't run or hide, I have no resources to invest in seven years of this type of existence to attempt to endure through it..but what I have I will invest in those who may be able to , comfort those who can't and for those who still have a chance to reject the mark..this is a comfort to me not a worry at all..this is how I have worked through all the possible worse case scenarios:hug:.

All I can do for my loved ones I have, I have shared with them the Word of God and I have invited them, encouraged them to receive Jesus for these reasons, surrender their lives now..they are in greater eternal danger now without this than any mortal danger if the Anti-christ showed up tomorrow right?

if they have this, they will indeed have what they need most to "survive" and one day be with our Lord.The Anti-christ can not steal what has already been given to God..that includes my life as well as my belongings or food. All he get's out of the deal is a lump of clay (albeit in one or two pieces )if it comes down to it, while inherit an eternity with my Lord and Savior because I 'am home' the minute he does.. :D

Firstfruits
Mar 31st 2008, 11:23 AM
Wonderful post and such truth to these words Sister!

I want to add the same sentiments from another perspective, I have been homeless, had to take my four children and leave with little but the clothes on my back, no money, no food, hurt and under horrendous circumstances..

But Gods faithful and we must trust him..because often in these circumstances this is all we have is His faithfulness.

The DVI shelter had no room available when I called before I left.. a few hours later a new site had been cleared by the Dept of Welfare for occupancy..a home left by a man for this purpose in his estate.

I was the first to be allowed in..it was unfurnised..while I was settling in, overwhelmed and trying to comfort my children..a truck pulled up..in it was furniture brought by folks I didn't even Know..among the donated furniture was a set of bunkbeds..they were the ones my father had given my children when they were small and I had donated to another agency two years earlier..their initials still engraved on the posts.

There had been a freezer in the basement and it was still full of good food..each day brought another need and that need met just by prayer alone.God knew what I would need and it was there at the moment it was.

I personally believe this is what we may count on when it comes to the concerns of the OP if we find ourselves in this mess..why we can see how hard it is going to be if we stay focused on Revelation alone, but if we embrace everything God has done for us, from the begining, while we were in the womb..He was providing for us.It is this knowledge that will be our provision.



This is occuring in places around the world today, this world is already a very cruel place for some as it has been for many throughout the centuries..it should remind us what we do have and that while we may not have options over what becomes of our mortal lives, evil is not going to prevail in the end and we have much in Jesus to know we can count on.

This is what we can bring to others in those days..the ones who have not yeilded themselves to the beast and his mark..we can be their sanctuary with the truth of God by example of allowing Him to be our conduct regardless of what going on all around us or to us..

I recall so many stories of the concentration camps, POW's, missionaries, the early Christian martyers as examples of horror's that went beyond 3-7 yrs in humanity..we who have Christ, always have no need of options.

Medically I can't run or hide, I have no resources to invest in seven years of this type of existence to attempt to endure through it..but what I have I will invest in those who may be able to , comfort those who can't and for those who still have a chance to reject the mark..this is a comfort to me not a worry at all..this is how I have worked through all the possible worse case scenarios:hug:.

All I can do for my loved ones I have, I have shared with them the Word of God and I have invited them, encouraged them to receive Jesus for these reasons, surrender their lives now..they are in greater eternal danger now without this than any mortal danger if the Anti-christ showed up tomorrow right?

if they have this, they will indeed have what they need most to "survive" and one day be with our Lord.The Anti-christ can not steal what has already been given to God..that includes my life as well as my belongings or food. All he get's out of the deal is a lump of clay (albeit in one or two pieces )if it comes down to it, while inherit an eternity with my Lord and Savior because I 'am home' the minute he does.. :D

None of really want to die, but according to the following we are to endure unto death.

Jas 1:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Jas 5:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

2 Cor 4:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

Rev 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 12:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

third hero
Mar 31st 2008, 11:44 AM
Third Hero,
Thanks for this thread! It has been very thought-provoking. I have thought about this in the past since I am pre-wrath, but haven't given it a lot of thought lately. I don't know if we can have it all figured out, but we can be prepared to the best of our ability and place all our trust in God!

One question for you.....

As far as the safe havens that you have mentioned, how will they not be found by the wicked?? We are talking about communities with hundreds or thousands of believers, correct?
With satellites and the technology we have, I can't see how that can be kept secret?? Not to mention, the technology is will be even MORE advanced during the GT.

The key to survival, in my opinion, (other than prayer), is distance from the cities, and communication. You see, when the Lord returns, the cities are leveled by a massive earthquake. IN fact, just about every mountain on earth is completely leveled. Therefore, it is my opinion that if we begin building the safehavens while we still have periods of peace, then locating them far enough away from the cities could buy us at least a little time to grow crops without detection. This is why preparation is so important now. If we utilize the time now to build and maintain the safehavens without attracting attention, when the enemy goes to attack, they will think that these places are nothing more than average farmhouses... I hope.

Moreover, communication is the key. This will be a war, and one thing that I gleem from Revelation 13 is that the saints will feel awefully lonely. We will have no one else to help us during this time period. So, we are going to have to develop communication that will evade detection. I do not know of any effective means, although morris code comes to mind.

This is why I am bringing this topic up, so that we can make the preparations while we are still in good terms with the governments around the West. If we create a fool-proof plan and execute it before the first day happens. then we would actually have a decent shot of at least having enough land to build these communities, and effective communications so that when one safehaven is spotted, the people have places where they can go when they escape.

third hero
Mar 31st 2008, 12:11 PM
Ok, I see that there is a theme being presented that God will provide for all of our needs. I understand this, and I believe it. However, I think that at the same time, the point is being missed.

Unlike the trials of today, the trials of the Great Tribulation will be much worse than anything that any one of us has ever faced in all of our lifetimes. There will be no trucks or houses or people willing to help us when all of them will either take the MOTB or be in the same situation as those who have not taken the mark. No one with the MOTB will aid us. This has to be said.

I believe that God is aiding us by telling us, and telling us for the last 2000 years that a time period is coming where all creation will stand against you. He has given us ample warning.

I understand that you may feel as though we are not edifying one another by focusing on the warnings in Revelation, and I could not disagree with you more. Without the warnings in that book, we would have absolutely no chance of surviving the Great Tribulation, or at the very least, overcoming the evil one by our testimonies. Without the MOTB warnings in Revelation, everyone would take the mark, and no one would be saved. So, I believe that the warnings in Revelation, like every other prophetic warning of impending disaster, serve as edifying material.

For instance, Revelation tells us to be mindful of our thoughts and actions, and forces us to think about what is going to happen in the future. In case you have not noticed, I am not implying that the time before the Return of the Lord is upon us. I am simply noting that none of the denominations, including the RCC, has ever thought about the warnings in Revelations, nor have they considered preparing for the greatest period of human suffering ever. Noah had 100 years. We had 2000. Why haven't we had this discussion until now?

I know that the Bible clearly says not to worry about what we shall eat. However, in the very same Bible, we find a warning stating that no one will be able to buy or sell without taking that accursed mark. So, in order to eat, we will either be forced to steal, and break one of the original 10, or make preparations to grow our own food, which is the result of prudence, aka taking the Bible at it's word.

Is growing our own food saying to God, "we do not trust you"? Of course not! God is the one who makes the plants grow. He is the one who provides the necessary rains and sunshine to cause the plants to grow and produce fruit. I see growing our own food as the ultimate version of allowing God to be God and totally relying on Him. How is this not edifying?

I see "live and let God" POV to be a real problem, because it is the ultimate cop-out. It is people saying, "hey, we can't buy or sell food, but it's okay, because God wants it that way". I know that MY GOD is not like that. He gives us warnings so that we can be prepared. He used Joseph to keep not only Jacob and his sons alive, but also Egypt as well. What did the Egyptians do when they found out that seven years of famine was coming? Did they live and let God? No. They took God at His word and made proper preparations. What was the result? What if they "lived and let God"? There would be no Egypt, and no Israel. They would have all died in that horrible time of famine.

The same concept is now being employed, and we need to take notice of this fact. We have a responsibility to take Revelation at it's word and make the proper preparations, just in case it happens in our lifetimes. And if it doesn't then we can have something ready so that our children, or their children, or whatever descendent would have to face this great evil; they will have some blueprint that they can at least build on. It is much better to be prepared for the worst, especially in the light of a prophecy that was made almost 2000 years ago, than to continue what we have been doing, which is nothing. I am even trying to stabilize my expenses in order to gain some means to make preparations, even though I do not have the funds for what I want to employ just yet. It's that important.

Doing nothing and sweeping this under the proverbial rug is no longer an option.

Firstfruits
Mar 31st 2008, 02:12 PM
Ok, I see that there is a theme being presented that God will provide for all of our needs. I understand this, and I believe it. However, I think that at the same time, the point is being missed.

Unlike the trials of today, the trials of the Great Tribulation will be much worse than anything that any one of us has ever faced in all of our lifetimes. There will be no trucks or houses or people willing to help us when all of them will either take the MOTB or be in the same situation as those who have not taken the mark. No one with the MOTB will aid us. This has to be said.

I believe that God is aiding us by telling us, and telling us for the last 2000 years that a time period is coming where all creation will stand against you. He has given us ample warning.

I understand that you may feel as though we are not edifying one another by focusing on the warnings in Revelation, and I could not disagree with you more. Without the warnings in that book, we would have absolutely no chance of surviving the Great Tribulation, or at the very least, overcoming the evil one by our testimonies. Without the MOTB warnings in Revelation, everyone would take the mark, and no one would be saved. So, I believe that the warnings in Revelation, like every other prophetic warning of impending disaster, serve as edifying material.

For instance, Revelation tells us to be mindful of our thoughts and actions, and forces us to think about what is going to happen in the future. In case you have not noticed, I am not implying that the time before the Return of the Lord is upon us. I am simply noting that none of the denominations, including the RCC, has ever thought about the warnings in Revelations, nor have they considered preparing for the greatest period of human suffering ever. Noah had 100 years. We had 2000. Why haven't we had this discussion until now?

I know that the Bible clearly says not to worry about what we shall eat. However, in the very same Bible, we find a warning stating that no one will be able to buy or sell without taking that accursed mark. So, in order to eat, we will either be forced to steal, and break one of the original 10, or make preparations to grow our own food, which is the result of prudence, aka taking the Bible at it's word.

Is growing our own food saying to God, "we do not trust you"? Of course not! God is the one who makes the plants grow. He is the one who provides the necessary rains and sunshine to cause the plants to grow and produce fruit. I see growing our own food as the ultimate version of allowing God to be God and totally relying on Him. How is this not edifying?

I see "live and let God" POV to be a real problem, because it is the ultimate cop-out. It is people saying, "hey, we can't buy or sell food, but it's okay, because God wants it that way". I know that MY GOD is not like that. He gives us warnings so that we can be prepared. He used Joseph to keep not only Jacob and his sons alive, but also Egypt as well. What did the Egyptians do when they found out that seven years of famine was coming? Did they live and let God? No. They took God at His word and made proper preparations. What was the result? What if they "lived and let God"? There would be no Egypt, and no Israel. They would have all died in that horrible time of famine.

The same concept is now being employed, and we need to take notice of this fact. We have a responsibility to take Revelation at it's word and make the proper preparations, just in case it happens in our lifetimes. And if it doesn't then we can have something ready so that our children, or their children, or whatever descendent would have to face this great evil; they will have some blueprint that they can at least build on. It is much better to be prepared for the worst, especially in the light of a prophecy that was made almost 2000 years ago, than to continue what we have been doing, which is nothing. I am even trying to stabilize my expenses in order to gain some means to make preparations, even though I do not have the funds for what I want to employ just yet. It's that important.

Doing nothing and sweeping this under the proverbial rug is no longer an option.

According to the following is there much chance of suriving/staying alive before Jesus returns?

Rev 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Can we prevent what is to be fulfilled?

covenant mom
Mar 31st 2008, 05:13 PM
According to the following is there much chance of suriving/staying alive before Jesus returns?

Rev 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Can we prevent what is to be fulfilled?

There will be some who survive b/c we see it here:

The Coming of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

Amazedgrace21
Mar 31st 2008, 05:15 PM
This is why preparation is so important now. If we utilize the time now to build and maintain the safehavens without attracting attention, when the enemy goes to attack, they will think that these places are nothing more than average farmhouses... I hope.

Moreover, communication is the key. This will be a war, and one thing that I gleem from Revelation 13 is that the saints will feel awefully lonely. We will have no one else to help us during this time period. So, we are going to have to develop communication that will evade detection. I do not know of any effective means, although morris code comes to mind.



I personally do not hold the opinion it's not edifying to prepare, on the contrary, its very appropriate on many levels..just to qualify that sentiment on my part!

What I am simply proposing is that there are realities present that we must also keep balanced in this endeavor. If we could anticipate certain things that we govern the control over the outcome to some extent, we should take the appropriate course of action..self preservation in an event where there is an edict to kill us, is an act of war and considering the party who issues it, that makes the other side the enemy of God as well as mine here..no dispute over this..

Yet the variables being asked to be considered sort of lack the perspective what the mission is on Satan's part and the fact he is a formidable enemy..after all he's been part of this all along..he is "years" ahead of us in his preparations for this time..so the safe haven approach will be anticipated, and those havens are only going to stand if indeed God has elected that they should and will endure Satan's desire to destroy them..Steven understood this when he confronted his circumstances.

I see no biblical council to not prepare for such things, but not to make them what you ultimately rely upon simply because they are not prioritized to do so..as a biblical response..that seems to be left in the area of where God leads and convicts individuals to do so and their response to abide by this.

All I am suggesting here is ultimately we do not know if they would succeed and which ones would, only that in order for them to, it would rely upon Gods divine intervention, not our wisdom or ability to anticipate all the variables..or if they failed to do what we hoped they would, this was also prepared for in terms of knowing God has indeed prepared us for this eventuality as well.

I believe there will be areas in the world where the focus will be upon certain groups and concentrations of the populations that Satan has already been planning for a very long time ahead of this event he will turn his focus and priorities upon..nor will be as focused upon running around the rural and remote areas of terrains no human being would normally or even successfully be able to live and survive under the best of circumstances..

that would be a low priority, just a feather in his cap to use any opportunity to make an easy kill by finding one of these communities, and would allow us to herd ourselves together into them to make his job easier for the kill, then act upon it.Given his resources , they could not be defended and would fall absent Gods intervention.

Just makes sense from a strategy standpoint..so this is ultimately about trusting God to alert us to these things and having the same info about us that Satan has IMHO! Both so we can use it to be prepared as we can to survive but for the purpose of our survival or inability to do so when it comes to everything Satan will be throwing at us..just how nasty , vile and hideous Satan will be in respect to geting us to abandone our trust in God..sadistically torture us..by using those we love and violate every one of our core beliefs to break us down..as much spiritually and mentally as physically.

Now if you want to be prepared, that is the first priority to address, the reality of this..ask a POW or a survivor of the concentration camps how bad that can get. Read Anne Franks Diary how humanbeings act and this shows you the worst and best that arrives under horrendous circumstances..thats all. Observe there challanges and responses in these circumstances and learn about yout own response to them and go from there to ask yourself what is the greatest urgency,

Preparation and steps to evade for for trying to avoid this is not wrong , just that that if it ultimately fails..then what? Are we prepared for this?..IMHO, this is what God has provided Revelation for..to prepare us for this as well.:hug:

covenant mom
Mar 31st 2008, 05:19 PM
Ok, I see that there is a theme being presented that God will provide for all of our needs. I understand this, and I believe it. However, I think that at the same time, the point is being missed.

Unlike the trials of today, the trials of the Great Tribulation will be much worse than anything that any one of us has ever faced in all of our lifetimes. There will be no trucks or houses or people willing to help us when all of them will either take the MOTB or be in the same situation as those who have not taken the mark. No one with the MOTB will aid us. This has to be said.

I believe that God is aiding us by telling us, and telling us for the last 2000 years that a time period is coming where all creation will stand against you. He has given us ample warning.

I understand that you may feel as though we are not edifying one another by focusing on the warnings in Revelation, and I could not disagree with you more. Without the warnings in that book, we would have absolutely no chance of surviving the Great Tribulation, or at the very least, overcoming the evil one by our testimonies. Without the MOTB warnings in Revelation, everyone would take the mark, and no one would be saved. So, I believe that the warnings in Revelation, like every other prophetic warning of impending disaster, serve as edifying material.

For instance, Revelation tells us to be mindful of our thoughts and actions, and forces us to think about what is going to happen in the future. In case you have not noticed, I am not implying that the time before the Return of the Lord is upon us. I am simply noting that none of the denominations, including the RCC, has ever thought about the warnings in Revelations, nor have they considered preparing for the greatest period of human suffering ever. Noah had 100 years. We had 2000. Why haven't we had this discussion until now?

I know that the Bible clearly says not to worry about what we shall eat. However, in the very same Bible, we find a warning stating that no one will be able to buy or sell without taking that accursed mark. So, in order to eat, we will either be forced to steal, and break one of the original 10, or make preparations to grow our own food, which is the result of prudence, aka taking the Bible at it's word.

Is growing our own food saying to God, "we do not trust you"? Of course not! God is the one who makes the plants grow. He is the one who provides the necessary rains and sunshine to cause the plants to grow and produce fruit. I see growing our own food as the ultimate version of allowing God to be God and totally relying on Him. How is this not edifying?

I see "live and let God" POV to be a real problem, because it is the ultimate cop-out. It is people saying, "hey, we can't buy or sell food, but it's okay, because God wants it that way". I know that MY GOD is not like that. He gives us warnings so that we can be prepared. He used Joseph to keep not only Jacob and his sons alive, but also Egypt as well. What did the Egyptians do when they found out that seven years of famine was coming? Did they live and let God? No. They took God at His word and made proper preparations. What was the result? What if they "lived and let God"? There would be no Egypt, and no Israel. They would have all died in that horrible time of famine.

The same concept is now being employed, and we need to take notice of this fact. We have a responsibility to take Revelation at it's word and make the proper preparations, just in case it happens in our lifetimes. And if it doesn't then we can have something ready so that our children, or their children, or whatever descendent would have to face this great evil; they will have some blueprint that they can at least build on. It is much better to be prepared for the worst, especially in the light of a prophecy that was made almost 2000 years ago, than to continue what we have been doing, which is nothing. I am even trying to stabilize my expenses in order to gain some means to make preparations, even though I do not have the funds for what I want to employ just yet. It's that important.

Doing nothing and sweeping this under the proverbial rug is no longer an option.

I couldn't agree more!

The only thing I've added to my prep ideas is the fact that my ultimate trust still has to be God's protection & deliverance. Moth & rust could very well destroy my plans & stock. Not to mention floods or tornados could wipe out my stock. That's why I believe if God tells you some specifics (such as where to store the food & supplies) you better listen.

I also must say that if all the prep fails & my family & I are killed anyways.....it's okay 'cause I'll be home. Surviving the tribulation (though it would be neat to be alive when He comes back) is not the true lottery prize...being with Him will be.

I think you agree with that too. ;)

canis thaddaus
Mar 31st 2008, 06:57 PM
On the matter of food, water, and medicine; the faithful need only ask for God's assistance and He will provide. John 5:14 states "Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him."

And when the time of persicution comes, I believe that the unfortunate ones that have taken the mark have sold their souls to Satan and have condemed themselves. So to defend the faithful from these evil souls would be right. And remember what if says in Jude verse 14, "Enoch prophisied about these men also, saying "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgement on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. But you, beloved, remember the words spoken before by the apostles of Jesus Christ: how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.
But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of out Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, To God our Savior who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

tango
Apr 1st 2008, 10:13 PM
Is growing our own food saying to God, "we do not trust you"? Of course not! God is the one who makes the plants grow. He is the one who provides the necessary rains and sunshine to cause the plants to grow and produce fruit. I see growing our own food as the ultimate version of allowing God to be God and totally relying on Him. How is this not edifying?

I see "live and let God" POV to be a real problem, because it is the ultimate cop-out. It is people saying, "hey, we can't buy or sell food, but it's okay, because God wants it that way". I know that MY GOD is not like that. He gives us warnings so that we can be prepared. He used Joseph to keep not only Jacob and his sons alive, but also Egypt as well. What did the Egyptians do when they found out that seven years of famine was coming? Did they live and let God? No. They took God at His word and made proper preparations. What was the result? What if they "lived and let God"? There would be no Egypt, and no Israel. They would have all died in that horrible time of famine.



I'd agree that growing food isn't the same as not trusting God. However, I think we need to look a little deeper than simply not being able to buy or sell without the mark of the beast.

In a global food shortage (possibly heading our way even now) the price of food goes up, possibly terrifyingly so. Ultimately we reach a point where there simply isn't food to buy at any price (famine is prophesied in Rev 6:6-8). If we're growing food we need time to nurture the seeds until the crops are ready to eat, while hungry hordes will be trying to relieve us of the crops. Just for good measure those hordes will most likely be maddened, and possibly possessed by demons.

It may be that God will protect us by guarding our crops from a rampaging mob. It may also be that God will protect us through more subtle (at least from an earthly perspective) ways, as in the case of Elijah and the widow in 1Kings 17.

quiet dove
Apr 1st 2008, 11:45 PM
I saw a news clip, and sorry, can't remember what country, but things like TP and a can of soup were $35K, 51K absurd amounts, because there money had no value anymore. Sorry I can't remember where it was.

tango
Apr 1st 2008, 11:59 PM
I saw a news clip, and sorry, can't remember what country, but things like TP and a can of soup were $35K, 51K absurd amounts, because there money had no value anymore. Sorry I can't remember where it was.

Probably Zimbabwe. The last I heard their official inflation rate was somewhere between 100000% and 200000%, although it was hard to measure because there was so little available to buy.

Some months ago the smallest note they had was Z$500 and the price of toilet roll worked out to about Z$475, which led to much speculation as to the fate of the smallest banknotes.

Many people in Zimbabwe are millionaires but still can't afford to actually buy anything.

quiet dove
Apr 2nd 2008, 01:15 AM
Probably Zimbabwe. The last I heard their official inflation rate was somewhere between 100000% and 200000%, although it was hard to measure because there was so little available to buy.

Some months ago the smallest note they had was Z$500 and the price of toilet roll worked out to about Z$475, which led to much speculation as to the fate of the smallest banknotes.

Many people in Zimbabwe are millionaires but still can't afford to actually buy anything.

Thats sounds like what I saw.

covenant mom
Apr 2nd 2008, 04:17 PM
I'd agree that growing food isn't the same as not trusting God. However, I think we need to look a little deeper than simply not being able to buy or sell without the mark of the beast.

In a global food shortage (possibly heading our way even now) the price of food goes up, possibly terrifyingly so. Ultimately we reach a point where there simply isn't food to buy at any price (famine is prophesied in Rev 6:6-8). If we're growing food we need time to nurture the seeds until the crops are ready to eat, while hungry hordes will be trying to relieve us of the crops. Just for good measure those hordes will most likely be maddened, and possibly possessed by demons.

It may be that God will protect us by guarding our crops from a rampaging mob. It may also be that God will protect us through more subtle (at least from an earthly perspective) ways, as in the case of Elijah and the widow in 1Kings 17.

My flesh wants to read this & tremble w/ fear :cry: for my family (especially my small kids who want food about every few hours) (& me whose world revolves around cooking & loving food) but my spirit says, "trust & seek Me, My Word is your bread".

My analytical mind thinks of ways to feed my family (hunting & gardening), but my spirit says, "I always do things in your life that don't look like what you expected".

How can I argue w/ the spirit in me? Our relationships w/ the Lord are going to be our substance during the times ahead. :pray:

Blessed777
Apr 2nd 2008, 05:11 PM
The First Day: What Do You Do? A Post-trib qustion

I would support America

One of the first things that will happen is America will be hit hard, we will be down but we will not be out.

The country will go into full military mobilization in order to fight the Beast.

covenant mom
Apr 2nd 2008, 06:38 PM
I would support America

One of the first things that will happen is America will be hit hard, we will be down but we will not be out.

The country will go into full military mobilization in order to fight the Beast.


How do you know the country will be against the beast? Nothing in scripture says this.

I love my country, but I also realize that God raises & brings down countries. My first allegance is to Jesus, not a country as much as I may love that homeland.

White Spider
Apr 2nd 2008, 07:04 PM
. . . So, what say you?

I say bring it on BEAST!

I know there is no point in trying to kill the beast and that would be a bad idea for every attempt on the beast will fail and probably give him an opportunity to say he's immortal only solidifying the belief he is God.

I would however go after his major pawns with everything I got.

I'd fight to the death, I know where I am going when I die and death is not something I'm afraid of. More something I'm looking forward too in a weird way.

I'll try to stay alive as long as possible because once I am dead I really aint much help, but I won't sit in any safe under ground bunker in hiding. I will take the risks necessary to show the Beast is not God no matter what it means.

Couple months I'm getting a cross tattooed on my neck so everyone knows what I stand for . . . Words "Messenger of Christ" down the back of my calf soon after that . . . and if I got money left a Celtic trinity sign on my left shoulder . . . And somewhere down the line some full verses on my chest.

I think our biggest challenge will be media. If we could overtake news stations for a while and spread the word during the beasts reign that wold probably have the greatest effect because I'm sure he'll have control of all media shortly after he appears. If we could do the V for Vendetta type thing I think that would be our greatest achievement.

That's what say I!

Praise be to the real God!

Blessed777
Apr 3rd 2008, 08:10 AM
How do you know the country will be against the beast? Nothing in scripture says this.

I love my country, but I also realize that God raises & brings down countries. My first allegance is to Jesus, not a country as much as I may love that homeland.

Daniel 11:39-40
He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will distribute the land at a price.
"At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships.


If you look at the verse as it relates to the Antichrist and the time of the end.

It shows two kings fighting the Antichrist. King of the North, and king of the South.

Nothing much is said about the king of the South. But the king of the North has chariots, and cavalry (tanks, vehicles), and also a great fleet of ships.

The qualifications of the king of the North is that he must have a powerful army and also a large navy powerful enough to attack enemy from across the ocean. And this enemy he is attacking will be a world power, not too many countries can do this.

There are several countries that can attack a world power with a powerful army of their own. But there is pretty much only one power existing today with a large enough navy able to attack another opponent at the level of world power. Care to guess who that is. If you guess USA then you are right.

Only the USA has a large navy powerful enough to take on any world power. Every other country out there has pretty much a small navy. Russia once did, but not anymore. England has a good navy but not nearly as many ships as the USA does.

IMO only the USA is capable of fitting as the king of the North who attacks the Anitichrist, the other is NATO but the USA leads NATO so its pretty much the same thing.

And we are talking post-trib here right.?. So were all here. Okay. What country has the most Christians in it or the most number of influential Christians in it. I thinks it the USA.

Since this is post-trib, do you think all the Christian in America are gonna let the Antichrist do whatever he wants and not do anything about it. I highly doubt that.

The USA will fight the Antichrist, I can almost guarantee it.

covenant mom
Apr 3rd 2008, 10:06 PM
Daniel 11:39-40
He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will distribute the land at a price.
"At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships.


If you look at the verse as it relates to the Antichrist and the time of the end.

It shows two kings fighting the Antichrist. King of the North, and king of the South.

Nothing much is said about the king of the South. But the king of the North has chariots, and cavalry (tanks, vehicles), and also a great fleet of ships.

The qualifications of the king of the North is that he must have a powerful army and also a large navy powerful enough to attack enemy from across the ocean. And this enemy he is attacking will be a world power, not too many countries can do this.

There are several countries that can attack a world power with a powerful army of their own. But there is pretty much only one power existing today with a large enough navy able to attack another opponent at the level of world power. Care to guess who that is. If you guess USA then you are right.

Only the USA has a large navy powerful enough to take on any world power. Every other country out there has pretty much a small navy. Russia once did, but not anymore. England has a good navy but not nearly as many ships as the USA does.

IMO only the USA is capable of fitting as the king of the North who attacks the Anitichrist, the other is NATO but the USA leads NATO so its pretty much the same thing.

And we are talking post-trib here right.?. So were all here. Okay. What country has the most Christians in it or the most number of influential Christians in it. I thinks it the USA.

Since this is post-trib, do you think all the Christian in America are gonna let the Antichrist do whatever he wants and not do anything about it. I highly doubt that.

The USA will fight the Antichrist, I can almost guarantee it.

I don't know. This may be right, but I tend to believe the US is on her way out of being a super power any day now. Not that I want that, but it's just a gut feeling. I don't trust my feelings though, so I'm not dogmatic about it.

third hero
Apr 4th 2008, 12:54 AM
I say bring it on BEAST!

I know there is no point in trying to kill the beast and that would be a bad idea for every attempt on the beast will fail and probably give him an opportunity to say he's immortal only solidifying the belief he is God.

I would however go after his major pawns with everything I got.

I'd fight to the death, I know where I am going when I die and death is not something I'm afraid of. More something I'm looking forward too in a weird way.

I'll try to stay alive as long as possible because once I am dead I really aint much help, but I won't sit in any safe under ground bunker in hiding. I will take the risks necessary to show the Beast is not God no matter what it means.

Couple months I'm getting a cross tattooed on my neck so everyone knows what I stand for . . . Words "Messenger of Christ" down the back of my calf soon after that . . . and if I got money left a Celtic trinity sign on my left shoulder . . . And somewhere down the line some full verses on my chest.

I think our biggest challenge will be media. If we could overtake news stations for a while and spread the word during the beasts reign that wold probably have the greatest effect because I'm sure he'll have control of all media shortly after he appears. If we could do the V for Vendetta type thing I think that would be our greatest achievement.

That's what say I!

Praise be to the real God!

We need to talk.... really.

On the serious note, this post is my attitude towards the whole Great Tribulation. Need proof?

Bring it! So what if the Beast would gain control of almost all of the nations of the world. So what if they attempt to single us out by implanting a Mark on all of it's citizens. So what if they try to starve us or do anything to otherwise wipe us off of the face of the earth. We will survive! We wil live on. ANd personally, if the time comes where I have to go on the offensive, I know that those who kill with the sword will die by it, and I am prepared. If necessary, I will kill or die for the sake of the saving the life of a single brother or sister in the Lord. That's what keeps me going, even when my personal life hits the toilet.

Although, I am too dark to have tats on my body though.

good post there, White Spider!

third hero
Apr 4th 2008, 01:02 AM
Daniel 11:39-40
He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will distribute the land at a price.
"At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships.


If you look at the verse as it relates to the Antichrist and the time of the end.

It shows two kings fighting the Antichrist. King of the North, and king of the South.

Nothing much is said about the king of the South. But the king of the North has chariots, and cavalry (tanks, vehicles), and also a great fleet of ships.

The qualifications of the king of the North is that he must have a powerful army and also a large navy powerful enough to attack enemy from across the ocean. And this enemy he is attacking will be a world power, not too many countries can do this.

There are several countries that can attack a world power with a powerful army of their own. But there is pretty much only one power existing today with a large enough navy able to attack another opponent at the level of world power. Care to guess who that is. If you guess USA then you are right.

Only the USA has a large navy powerful enough to take on any world power. Every other country out there has pretty much a small navy. Russia once did, but not anymore. England has a good navy but not nearly as many ships as the USA does.

IMO only the USA is capable of fitting as the king of the North who attacks the Anitichrist, the other is NATO but the USA leads NATO so its pretty much the same thing.

And we are talking post-trib here right.?. So were all here. Okay. What country has the most Christians in it or the most number of influential Christians in it. I thinks it the USA.

Since this is post-trib, do you think all the Christian in America are gonna let the Antichrist do whatever he wants and not do anything about it. I highly doubt that.

The USA will fight the Antichrist, I can almost guarantee it.

I once thought this as well, but look at what the Christians in this country have allowed to happen already? Abortion, rampant demoralization of the country at large, and the biggie, homosexual marriage is slipping into the mainstream while all of us are here talking about stopping a world leader with the power and authority of the Enemy himself. We need to turn up the heat on the problems in this country now, and then we will be better prepared to take on that world threat. That is, if the Christians in this country want to hold on to the power that God has allowed us to have.

But I am hoping that the US would be against him, however, I am not sure. I am starting to see something concerning the USA, and I do not like it at all. It's like the gryphin in Daniel 7, with this first beast losing his wings, being humiliated and made to stand on it's hind legs, and given a heart of a man. I hope I am wrong, but look at the last 5 years.

But again, I hope you are right. IMHO, I think this country will end up being split, with the Christians and secularists fighting for control of the country when all of this trouble breaks out. But I hope you are right.

cwb
Apr 4th 2008, 05:57 AM
3H, according to God's word, God is God, regardless of the circumstances we find ourselves in. He is God even when ruthless, evil men rule earthly kingdoms and physically rule over His people.




Not according to Jesus:

Matthew 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.


Shirley

Shirley,
I think you bring up a great point here in answering Third Hero's question. Here's why. I feel we really need to train our minds to think this way. If we have not trained our minds to think this way now, what makes us think we are going to think this way during the great tribulation if we should end up still being here. If every time our economic situation looks a little bleak now, we have an anxiety attack about it, that's not good. I do think that one of the biggest things to do to prepare is to train our minds that anytime our situation might not appear to be good, the first thing we do is go the God with the situation - not to get all fearful and full of anxiety and worry. If we are not doing this now, chances are we are not going to do it when the tribualation comes around should we still be here.

By the way, I believe that the translation in King James, "take no thought". is a really bad translation. The word means "do not get anxious" or "do not have your mind divided". Of course we should think about it but don't get all worried about it.

Firstfruits
Apr 4th 2008, 07:43 AM
There will be some who survive b/c we see it here:

The Coming of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

Have you noticed what is says in verse 17: "We who are still alive and remain" Was he trying to say it will not be easy to stay alive and also to remain?

covenant mom
Apr 4th 2008, 02:22 PM
Have you noticed what is says in verse 17: "We who are still alive and remain" Was he trying to say it will not be easy to stay alive and also to remain?

I believe so....there probably won't be very many alive, but I don't know for sure. I think the ones alive will be ordained or destined to be alive. I get that from the verse in Rev that says, those destined to be killed will & those destined for captivity will go into captivity. Also b/c our days are numbered & I have no doubt God knows who/how many will be alive when He returns. & no doubt those alive will probably be miraculously so.

Do you think it will be a small number as well?

covenant mom
Apr 4th 2008, 02:25 PM
To add to my prior post about "alive & remain".

I've known many who have had "rapture dreams" & I've wondered if some of those have been words from God to let them know they will see that day. Who knows? Only God of course.

Firstfruits
Apr 4th 2008, 02:38 PM
I believe so....there probably won't be very many alive, but I don't know for sure. I think the ones alive will be ordained or destined to be alive. I get that from the verse in Rev that says, those destined to be killed will & those destined for captivity will go into captivity. Also b/c our days are numbered & I have no doubt God knows who/how many will be alive when He returns. & no doubt those alive will probably be miraculously so.

Do you think it will be a small number as well?

It would appear so, with regards to the following.

Rev 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Remember that unless you serve the beast your more likely to be killed than to live.

covenant mom
Apr 4th 2008, 02:41 PM
It would appear so, with regards to the following.

Rev 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Remember that unless you serve the beast your more likely to be killed than to live.

Yes & I've often wondered if that would be the easier way out anyways. It would be difficult to live to the end of those days. Getting your head chopped off might be the best case scenario in all honesty.

Firstfruits
Apr 4th 2008, 02:53 PM
Yes & I've often wondered if that would be the easier way out anyways. It would be difficult to live to the end of those days. Getting your head chopped off might be the best case scenario in all honesty.

Don't forget the benfits;

Rev 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Not to mention those who intend to be in the first resurrection;

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

covenant mom
Apr 4th 2008, 04:37 PM
Don't forget the benfits;

Rev 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Not to mention those who intend to be in the first resurrection;

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

That's true. So are those who are alive & remain not involved in the MK? If not...I wonder what they do during that time?

Firstfruits
Apr 4th 2008, 06:51 PM
That's true. So are those who are alive & remain not involved in the MK? If not...I wonder what they do during that time?

As Jesus has said that time will be like nothing ever seen and unless those times are shortened no flesh would be saved;

Mt 24:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mk 13:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

We can only speculate what it will be like for those alive and remain.

third hero
Apr 4th 2008, 07:18 PM
That's true. So are those who are alive & remain not involved in the MK? If not...I wonder what they do during that time?

Just so that we do not change the subject, I think answering this question by only bringing up scripture would be wise. Any other discussions about the MK and the Tribulation saints at that point should be discussed in another thread.

So, according to what I have read, your answer can be found in these verses.

Zechariah 14:6-21, Psalm 2, Daniel 7:13-14, Isaiah 65, and Revelation 20.

Now let's gte back to the point of the conversation, and that is figuring out a way to come up with a plan to at least resist the Evil one and give fellow believers a chance to survive the greatest period of human suffering ever.

To Cwb,

Yes, God is God. This point was never argued against. Our responsibility to take God at His word is what is the issue here. We have a prophecy, a warning that is 2000 years old, and the churches have not even considered making preparations to survive and continue to preach the Gospel during that time period. I think that we would be doing God a disservice by just saying, "Let God take care of it", when it appears to me at least that He has told us to "be prepared" by giving us that warning, if what I believe is correct. Hence, I believe that it is our responsibility to make the proper preparations, and put the "take no thought" verses in their proper perspective. Those verses mentioned deal with what happens when one is captured, which to me is the point where we have to choose to be victiorious and lose our heads, or give up everything and side with the Beast. I think at that point, the choice is easy, because anyone who will be oppressed by the Beast will gladly choose death over obedience to the man of sin. I think that the "take no thought" verses do not apply to taking heed of warnings that come from the exact same source, the Bible. This is not one of those, "the sky is falling" prophecies that will never happen. This is not the Y2K scare. This is a prophecy that will eventually come to pass, and I believe that the churches need to be prepared for it.

The Village Idiot
Apr 5th 2008, 03:58 AM
"The world now has to choose whether to accept that their Savior is now claiming to be God, or otherwise reject him utterly."

Isn’t that the gospel? I see no material difference whatsoever between that word and what Paul proclaimed in the midst of the Areopagus:


"God now commands to men that all people everywhere should repent, because he has fixed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom he has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising him from the dead" (Acts 17:30-31).

That gospel is proclaimed on the word of him who holds all authority in heaven and earth (Mt 28:18ff). If Christ’s authoritative word is insufficient to elicit faith, I simply cannot believe that bondage, wars, casualties, attacks, famine or this supposed beast figure can do more.

In my reckoning, refusal to trust in God leaves us in the beast’s service whatever name, form or shape said beast takes in our time and place.

cwb
Apr 5th 2008, 03:20 PM
To Cwb,

Yes, God is God. This point was never argued against. Our responsibility to take God at His word is what is the issue here. We have a prophecy, a warning that is 2000 years old, and the churches have not even considered making preparations to survive and continue to preach the Gospel during that time period. I think that we would be doing God a disservice by just saying, "Let God take care of it", when it appears to me at least that He has told us to "be prepared" by giving us that warning, if what I believe is correct. Hence, I believe that it is our responsibility to make the proper preparations, and put the "take no thought" verses in their proper perspective. Those verses mentioned deal with what happens when one is captured, which to me is the point where we have to choose to be victiorious and lose our heads, or give up everything and side with the Beast. I think at that point, the choice is easy, because anyone who will be oppressed by the Beast will gladly choose death over obedience to the man of sin. I think that the "take no thought" verses do not apply to taking heed of warnings that come from the exact same source, the Bible. This is not one of those, "the sky is falling" prophecies that will never happen. This is not the Y2K scare. This is a prophecy that will eventually come to pass, and I believe that the churches need to be prepared for it.

Your response here makes me feel that you did not understand what I was trying to convey. I never said anything against the need to prepare. When Jesus Christ told us to not get anxious about what we should eat or wear, he did not mean we should never think about it, or prepare. I thought I conveyed that in my post but I guess not. My point was that anybody who has not trained themselves to trust God for their needs now sure enough is not going to be trusting
God when the going gets really tough. And no, trusting God does not mean you do nothing to prepare. Noah trusted God and he certainly did something to prepare. My point is that people who get all freaked out over something little today, chances are those folks are not going to stand when things get worse and worse. Whether it is the tribulation of the anti-christ or any other tribulation we might find ourselves in, when the going gets tough, the tough need to go to God. I do not know when the great tribulation is going to start and neither do you. Even if it does not start for another 20 years, that does not mean we will not see any tribulation at all. There can be plenty of tribulation before the revealing of the man of sin. And yes, trusting God means we should do whatever he tells us to prepare. Trusting God does not me you do nothing. However if you are all freaked out in your mind, you are not trusting God. The mental and spiritual preparations are just as important as the physical if we are to stand in the storms that come our way.

third hero
Apr 5th 2008, 08:35 PM
I must have misunderstood. I totally agree with you there cwb. Besides, I am not certain that the Great Tribulation will happen in our lifetimes, despite the dreams I had. My whole point is that we need to prepare, just as Paul did during his walk on this earth, as evidenced in 1 thes 4. IF we have that same attitude while trusting that God will direct us in not only our our hour of greatest need, but also during the planning stages, no force in heaven or on earth can stop us, not even the man of sin.

That is why I have decided to create this thread, so that everyone will begin to see this fact, and help in the conversation to begin making the preparations we need to make, just in case what I believe is correct. By no means is this stressing me out, because I have been living with this question for the last 9 years. I just need some help in getting ideas together so that I can come up with a plan of action as the events thqat lead up to the advent of the beast becomes apparent. If we have such a plan in place, then we will have a shot at surviving this thing while continuing in the quest that Lord Jesus himself gave us, to spread His message to all people.

On a personal note, I still scratch my head in wondering why the churches never had this conversation. This is not a new concept, nor is the idea of the Beast ruling the world and trying to eliminate us a concept that just popped up in the last 50 years. This is a 2000 year-old prophecy and we are just NOW starting to have this conversation? Sounds kinda wacky to me.

IN truth, in order to survive the Great Tribulation, and I am not talking about the ones who end up being captured, we are going to have to make a plan, and trust in God throughout the entire process, and not just in the executing of that plan. He has to be in the process of creating the plan, because HE will cause us to see variables that we otherwise would not be able to see, and guide us to that plan that has the best chance of success.

For instance, someone in this thread pointed out that there will be many who will want the farm land that we will posess. They will wantto overrun the safehavens for food. In this case, we may in fact have to be dealing with Believers at that point. THose who do not take the mark, but will not help us in our endeavors either, outsiders. This is a variable that I did not think of, but the solution to that problem is equally complex, because it involves the many safehavens being in constant contact with each other, so that if one get's raided, the others can be on alert. Moreover, if the forces of the beast destroy that one safehaven and there are survivors, they can know where the next safehaven is so that they will not be "out in the cold" for long. Also, the other safehavens must be able to accomodate people who will either be found in the cities, or refugees from other safehavens. And on top of that, the ones who have been rejected from a safehaven for various sins can find another one and find redemption there.

And so we have so many things that we must be prepared for, and mind you, that was only 1 variable. Ther are many more. Hence I believe that there is a great need for us to continue this conversation and draw up a God-breathed plan that not only emcompasses the Great Tribulation, but all of the other events that lead up to it. This is something that is going to have to take all of us to make happen, that and complete trust in the Holy Spirit. I believe that a plan without God is no plan at all.

cavscout
Apr 6th 2008, 01:47 PM
Let me start of by saying this. I believe that the Lord has given all of us talents and gifts to further his cause and to glorify Him. I am of neither camp, post trib or pre trib. My human brain cannot comprehend most the depths of the Bible. The best I can do is read and understand what the Lord allows me to. Then take that understanding and translate it to daily life. With that said, I will offer my thoughts.

I don’t know when the Lord will call away his elect; my simple mind does not understand the plans of our Lord for me, let alone His plans for the entire earth. The overall goal, yes I get that, but the route to get there is as confusing to me as brain surgery written in Greek. But if you believe that Gods children will be handed a pass on the trials and sufferings of this earth, then I am afraid you are mistaken. He sent His one and only Son to this earth to put the weight of mine and your sins on His shoulders and He suffered greatly before he was raised from the dead and returned to his rightful place with the Father. Why would I even begin to think that I deserve better than Christ Himself? If I were to get what I deserved, I would be looking directly into the pits of Hades.

All over the world, as we speak, our Brothers and Sisters are being persecuted, imprisoned, tortured, and executed for what we believe. I have talked to man with in the last week that was awakened in the middle of the night and forced to flee the country he had been living in for 7 years to avoid being assassinated. I know a story of a 15 year old Christian boy who picked up a gift left on his front porch for Passover and it exploded in his face(he survived, though the doctors said there was no chance he would) There are places where Christians are fighting tooth and nail just to maintain an existence. And to my knowledge, no “rapture” has occurred. So do I think the generation before Christ’s return will suffer great tribulations? Without a doubt. Again, if you think otherwise, I believe you are mistaken. It is not that bad in the US yet, but do not be misled into thinking it cannot happen here.

I have seen written “The Lord will provide and that is where I put my trust.” I as well put my trust and faith in everything I do in the Lord, but I also know that He gives me the means to do His will. I have a good job and a wonderful family, but God has given me the MEANS to have these things. I did not wake up one morning and say “OK Lord, I am going to sit here on this couch and wait for you to give me these things if it is your will.” You can go to the store, buy a steak, take it home, cook it, and put it on your plate. But unless you use the means that God gave you to cut a piece of it and put it in your mouth, I doubt you will ever feel that steak in your belly. Likewise, I believe the lord gives us the means to do battle with the enemy. Not only does He give us spiritual means, but also He gives us physical means. Up to and including using force to defend yourself and your family. (Blood relatives and spiritual relatives.) There are some that have brought up the issue of having to take the life of another. Here again, I believe the lord gives us the means to protect and defend ourselves against the enemy. I do consider anyone attempting to do me or my family harm the enemy and I will use force to stop them.

If you are not prepared to defend yourself and family against ones that would do you harm, then I do not believe you are doing God’s will. If you are not preparing yourself and your family for the things to come, be they good or bad, then I do not believe you are doing God’s will. God tells us that a Christian man that does not provide for his family is worse that an unbeliever. There for I chose to use the means that God has given me to provide and prepare for my family and our future. If you are the head of your family and you are not providing and preparing for the future of your family, then as I stated, I do not believe you are doing God’s will.

I also believe that God knows when we have exhausted all of the means that He has given us and that we have done everything humanly possible to do his will, yet we still fall short. That I think is when you see God’s hand the most, though it is in our life very day. Reading the story from the woman that basically had nothing and had done everything she could to provide for her children, but still fell short, made my heart flutter. You, my sister, Looked God right in the face when the bunk beds showed up and I think you realize it. We always seem to think that God is at his best when we are at our worst. We are way wrong; God is always at his best.

Third Hero, your intentions are good and I do believe you have a lot of people thinking, but you fail to realize how hard it is to hide 4 people when they are being sought, let alone 400 or 4000. I am a former Army scout, and know how difficult it is for 2 or 3 people who are well trained and well supplied with the best money can buy, to survive long periods of time while avoiding detection. Though I do believe communication and cooperation among believer will be essential to our survival in the days to come, getting together in large “safe havens” is a bad idea. Sites like the link that are posted on this thread are good in theory, but use caution in what information you reveal on a public forum, anyone can read it. Say for instance a detective looking for a drug dealer, he is not going to stand in front of a police station and look for him, or look in the meat section of a grocery store. He is going to look on street corners in the middle of the night. That is where the dealers interest are and that is where he will be found.

As for me, I am a survivalist and feel like with some preparation and LOTS of God’s grace and mercy I can and will do my best to provide and prepare for the future of me and my family. As was said, storing food in large quantities for one person is near impossible let alone 4. Then trying to move it if you have to would be an even harder task. So I rest in the assurance that God will give me the means to provide for my family when the need arises and when my last bean is eaten, the last round has been fired and the blade is broken on my bayonet, then I will say “Lord, I have exhausted every mean you have given me and if it is your will for this to be my end, then so be it” but until then I will use everything the Lord has given me to survive and to further his cause.

When all is said and done, my comforts lie in the knowledge that the sufferings and hardships we face on this earth are but a grain of sand compared to Mt. Everest to the rewards we will receive when we meet the father.

If I have offended anyone, I do apologize, that was not my intent. The intent was to express my point of view. Not to change the minds of anyone, or send anyone in another direction than you are going, as I do not know God’s will for myself, let alone God’s will for you.