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Pilgrimtozion
Mar 28th 2008, 10:20 AM
Recently, a Dutch politician named Geert Wilders came with a movie called "Fitna". In this movie, he portrays Islam as a religion that seeks to destroy the very foundations of our democratic society.

This sparks several questions: What does true Islam look like? What does the Quran truly say about terrorism? Is the sharia the ultimate expression of true islamic law?

Your thoughts please.

Fenris
Mar 28th 2008, 10:26 AM
Well, the problem in Islam today is twofold:

First, Islam is being defined by the most radical of it's followers; and

Second, whatever moderate Muslims do exist are allowing this to happen.

IMHO.

JesusisGod
Mar 28th 2008, 05:38 PM
Hi Pilgrimtozion.
I get a periodical called "The Berean Call", and the authors (Dave Hunt and T. A. McMann) portray Islam as a violent religion bent destroying anyone who refuses to convert. They cite verses from the Koran to prove their point, but after examining the passages surrounding those verses I feel the statements were taken out of context.

In any case, nobody is going to listen to people who blow themselves up taking others along the way.

Fenris
Mar 28th 2008, 05:42 PM
In any case, nobody is going to listen to people who blow themselves up taking others along the way.

Sigh. If only this were so.

Islam is a fast-growing religion and the terrorist groups who blow people up have standing as member-states at the UN.

Revinius
Mar 28th 2008, 06:01 PM
Sigh. If only this were so.

Islam is a fast-growing religion and the terrorist groups who blow people up have standing as member-states at the UN.

Ha, the axe is being ground very sharp Fenris :P

The Novelist
Mar 28th 2008, 06:17 PM
Ha, the axe is being ground very sharp Fenris :P

Grinding an axe or not, Fenris speaks the truth on this matter...although I do think his first response was a bit of a cop-out :lol:

JesusisGod
Mar 28th 2008, 06:30 PM
.....terrorist groups who blow people up have standing as member-states at the UN.
Al-Qaeda has a UN seat?

RevLogos
Mar 28th 2008, 06:54 PM
Recently, a Dutch politician named Geert Wilders came with a movie called "Fitna". In this movie, he portrays Islam as a religion that seeks to destroy the very foundations of our democratic society.

This sparks several questions: What does true Islam look like? What does the Quran truly say about terrorism? Is the sharia the ultimate expression of true islamic law?

Your thoughts please.

There are two active threads right now that will cover some of this.

This one discusses Islamic eschatology
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=119458

This one discusses what Islam thinks of Jesus, Christians and Jews
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=120066

Clavicula_Nox
Mar 28th 2008, 07:03 PM
Al-Qaeda has a UN seat?

Al-Qaeda isn't that large, and while it's a key player in the Jihad, it isn't the only one.

People need to learn how to talk about terrorism without defaulting to Al-Qaeda.

RevLogos
Mar 28th 2008, 07:25 PM
Recently, a Dutch politician named Geert Wilders came with a movie called "Fitna". In this movie, he portrays Islam as a religion that seeks to destroy the very foundations of our democratic society.

This sparks several questions: What does true Islam look like? What does the Quran truly say about terrorism? Is the sharia the ultimate expression of true islamic law?

Your thoughts please.

Last year I decided to study Islam in earnest. By original goal was to understand if we were waging the so-called "war on terror" correctly. Conservatives would say Islam has been hijacked by a small number of radicals. Liberals would say it's just a law enforcement issue. Frankly I didn't trust either view.

So I read part of the Qur'an myself - the first 5 Suras, and skimmed some of the others. I read Muslim commentary from Muslim sites. I looked at several translations.

The Islamic worldview is very very different from Christianity. There is a strong sense of "us vs. them" all throughout the Qur'an, believers vs. non-believers. It is a paranoid worldview. All non-believers are out to destroy Islam. They are cursed by Allah and enemies of Allah. Especially the Jews and to a slightly lesser extent, the Christians.

They view the world as divided into two parts. The "House of Islam" containing all believers, and the "House of War" containing everyone else.

And while Jesus said to love your enemy, Muhammad said to smite your enemy.

Also it is important to understand that Islam is not a secular religion as we think of religions. It is an entire social and governmental structure. It is a political system as well as a religion. Sharia law governs all aspects of life. Separation of church ans state has no meaning in Islam.

In an Islamic state, believers and non-believers can only coexist when the non-believers are held in a state of subjugation, or Dhimmitude. Dhimmis are allowed to practice their religion but suffer a humiliating status. The idea is that as Muslims must be subjugated to Allah, non-believers must be subjugated to Muslims. (Sura 9:29 and many others). There is no concept of "equal rights".

Imagine for a moment if all Christians were fundamental fanatics, but obeyed the Bible and the Word of God. Would we become terrorists? No! Of course not. Violence is not what Jesus teaches. Even in the rare case of for example, someone attacking an abortion center, this is done against the word of God.

On the other hand if all Muslims were fundamental fanatics, this world would be engulfed in unimaginable violence.

Christians do not debate about how and when we should kill other people. Muslims do.

Jollyrogers
Mar 28th 2008, 07:43 PM
Recently, a Dutch politician named Geert Wilders came with a movie called "Fitna". In this movie, he portrays Islam as a religion that seeks to destroy the very foundations of our democratic society.

This sparks several questions: What does true Islam look like? What does the Quran truly say about terrorism? Is the sharia the ultimate expression of true islamic law?

Your thoughts please.


Islam "By the Book" is a very violent religion, esp towards those who are not Islamic.The thing to remember is that only 15 % of them go "By The Book" (Which 15% of a religion of 1 1/2 Billion is a pretty large number). True Islam as practiced by the Prophet himself is quite Bloody and (at least for the male) very "Pleasue fulfilling". Muhammed decreed that when he overtook an are, if the women were not married to a muslim, their marriages were null and his men could marry them, or sell them as slaves (after he went thru and took his pick of course). As he got more powerful he became more militant and bloodthursty. If he were alive today and in the west he would be regestered as a pedaphile for marrying a 5 year old girl and consumating the marriage when she was 9. Studying the man he is not someone I would want to follow in any way.

KATA_LOUKAN
Mar 30th 2008, 04:56 PM
Christians do not debate about how and when we should kill other people. Muslims do.

There is still a debate raging in Western countries (like the US and the UK) as to whether suicide bombing is moral or not. Sigh.


Islam is a fast-growing religion and the terrorist groups who blow people up have standing as member-states at the UN.

Could you clarify this statement?

amazzin
Mar 30th 2008, 05:12 PM
Recently, a Dutch politician named Geert Wilders came with a movie called "Fitna". In this movie, he portrays Islam as a religion that seeks to destroy the very foundations of our democratic society.

This sparks several questions: What does true Islam look like? What does the Quran truly say about terrorism? Is the sharia the ultimate expression of true islamic law?

Your thoughts please.

Islam is no different than any other "world Religion". We must witness to it with as much passion and fervour as they do for the sake of Christ, His church ad His kingdom.

Islam is violent and its teaching is bent on world denomination for the sake of Allah in the name of Mohameed. Granted there are different sects each with its own interpretations of "violence" however, the theme of all "mankind being converted or referred to as infedels" can be interpreted as being forceful.

We Christians have also been as violent as Islam is today in past history through the Crusaders and early 1400 conversion of the "new world". Perhaos there is hope for Islam to become more docile but not in our life time because I beleive they are a component of the end times. They are Satan's tool in these modern times to inflict war and distruction on all who are infedels.

Sharia law will one day dominate even the western countries. US, Canad and Europe will bow down to its influence through the pressure of the UN. This law is a prelude to the anti-christ and the laws of the land before our Lord's final victory against evil and sin.

th1bill
Mar 31st 2008, 01:41 AM
Last year I decided to study Islam in earnest. By original goal was to understand if we were waging the so-called "war on terror" correctly. Conservatives would say Islam has been hijacked by a small number of radicals. Liberals would say it's just a law enforcement issue. Frankly I didn't trust either view.

So I read part of the Qur'an myself - the first 5 Suras, and skimmed some of the others. I read Muslim commentary from Muslim sites. I looked at several translations.

The Islamic worldview is very very different from Christianity. There is a strong sense of "us vs. them" all throughout the Qur'an, believers vs. non-believers. It is a paranoid worldview. All non-believers are out to destroy Islam. They are cursed by Allah and enemies of Allah. Especially the Jews and to a slightly lesser extent, the Christians.

They view the world as divided into two parts. The "House of Islam" containing all believers, and the "House of War" containing everyone else.

And while Jesus said to love your enemy, Muhammad said to smite your enemy.

Also it is important to understand that Islam is not a secular religion as we think of religions. It is an entire social and governmental structure. It is a political system as well as a religion. Sharia law governs all aspects of life. Separation of church ans state has no meaning in Islam.

In an Islamic state, believers and non-believers can only coexist when the non-believers are held in a state of subjugation, or Dhimmitude. Dhimmis are allowed to practice their religion but suffer a humiliating status. The idea is that as Muslims must be subjugated to Allah, non-believers must be subjugated to Muslims. (Sura 9:29 and many others). There is no concept of "equal rights".

Imagine for a moment if all Christians were fundamental fanatics, but obeyed the Bible and the Word of God. Would we become terrorists? No! Of course not. Violence is not what Jesus teaches. Even in the rare case of for example, someone attacking an abortion center, this is done against the word of God.

On the other hand if all Muslims were fundamental fanatics, this world would be engulfed in unimaginable violence.

Christians do not debate about how and when we should kill other people. Muslims do.
You will, possibly receive a fire storm of attacks for telling the truth but the truth you have told. I often try to get folks to just Google "164 verses Jihad" but they will not. People love to believe lies and often refuse to do the simplest research because they are so comfortable with the lie.

God bless.

Revinius
Mar 31st 2008, 08:40 AM
You will, possibly receive a fire storm of attacks for telling the truth but the truth you have told. I often try to get folks to just Google "164 verses Jihad" but they will not. People love to believe lies and often refuse to do the simplest research because they are so comfortable with the lie.

God bless.


2 Timothy 4:3-4

Duane Morse
Mar 31st 2008, 09:12 AM
Another question might be...


Is a democratic society truly a society of God?
Majority rules?
If that were the case, then Satan's way would be the right and ruling way.
Since, after all, according to the Bible the majority do not make it to heaven.


God's law is not based upon democracy.
It is His way, or the highway - pure and simple.

th1bill
Mar 31st 2008, 12:38 PM
Another question might be...


Is a democratic society truly a society of God?
Majority rules?
If that were the case, then Satan's way would be the right and ruling way.
Since, after all, according to the Bible the majority do not make it to heaven.


God's law is not based upon democracy.
It is His way, or the highway - pure and simple.
Duane,
.. The OP will correct me if I am wrong but what I see is a complete misread of the post. The point was actually wire spread in my perception when I read it. I may be wrong here because I am not the OP but I believe he was out to see if you and the rest of us were ready to bow down to Islam. And as for your point, God blessed this nation for as long as it turned to Him and there can be no perfect government until such time as God is seated in Israel, on the throne, and assumes command of the world. And my friend, that will not occur under the heavy hand of Islam.

diffangle
Mar 31st 2008, 02:14 PM
Al-Qaeda has a UN seat?
The large funders of radical Islam are Saudi Arabia and Iran.

Fenris
Mar 31st 2008, 02:36 PM
Al-Qaeda has a UN seat?
Hizbullah. Israel signed a UN mandated cease-fire with Hizbullah, for all intents and purposes.

Fenris
Mar 31st 2008, 02:44 PM
God's law is not based upon democracy.
It is His way, or the highway - pure and simple.

Which leaves us with the problem of deciding who interprets God's law. Catholics? Protestants? Jews? Sunni Muslims? Shia Muslims? Buddhists? etc etc

Pilgrimtozion
Mar 31st 2008, 04:52 PM
Perhaps we can just stick to the OP of showing (perhaps the Quran is a good starting-point) whether Islam is truly intrisically violent or not.