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Truthinlove
Mar 30th 2008, 06:15 AM
I see several things that cause problems with a post-trib rapture and have not had them cleared up for me.


When a Pre-wrather shows evidence of a 6th seal rapture, most Post-tribbers agree. They usually believe in a 6th seal rapture as well as a 7th trumpet rapture. But, in order to do this, they must take the chronology of the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments and overlap or telescope them so that the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet occur at the same time. This overlapping of judgments can’t be understood from a normal reading of the text. It must be constructed that way to support the desired outcome.

The view that the seals are an overview of the 70th week and that the trumpets and bowls run concurrently with them creates several big problems.

1) This overlapping would cause the seals to be a part of the DOTL (God’s wrath). Yet the DOTL begins AFTER the 6th seal (see Joel 2:31). How can Joel 2:31 be true according to the post-trib view? How can they have the DOTL (trumpets and bowls) occurring simultaneously with the seals if the 6th seal precedes the DOTL???

Another problem in making the seals the DOTL is that during the DOTL the LORD ALONE WILL BE EXALTED. Isaiah 2:11
Yet, we know that at the midpoint of the 70th week, during the seals, the antichrist will EXALT himself in the temple and claim to be God. Therefore the seals can’t be part of the DOTL!

After the 6th seal is opened, Rev. 7:3 states NO harm to the earth, sea or trees may be done until the sealing of the 144,000. How can the trumpet judgments, which clearly destroy the earth, sea, and trees, have already been occurring, according to the overlap view if the 6th seal MUST PRECEDE the harming of the earth, sea and trees??

These are fatal flaws to the post-trib position.

The text indicates consecutive order of judgments with the language used….then, until and after. The fact that the judgments are numbered 1-7 supports consecutive order as well.

Here are a few more arguments used to support the post-trib view….


1) Christ will raise up those who believe in Him on the last day. John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54



Post-tribbers infer that this “last day” must be the last day of the 70th week.

I disagree. I believe the “last day” is the last day of the end of the age. The Great Commission of making disciples and teaching all that Jesus commanded is until the end of the age. Matt. 28:18-20
The question the disciples asked Jesus during the Olivet Discourse was “tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age.” Matt. 24:3b The end of the age (last day) will be after the cosmic signs of the 6th seal, when the Lord returns and raptures the believers.

2) The resurrection/rapture occurs at the last trumpet. 1 Cor. 15:52


Post-tribbers infer that the “last trumpet” spoken of here must be the 7th trumpet of Revelation.

I do not agree. 1st Cor. was written approx. 40 years before Revelation. Paul had no knowledge of the trumpet judgments of Revelation.
More likely, is that he was using an analogy that his readers would understand. N.T. authors often used cultural analogies to make their points clear.
The analogy would be that the last trumpet when we are raptured would be like the call to assembly which was used in Roman games or in a military context. There was usually a preliminary trumpet or two blown and the last one would be the call to assembly. This would definitely make sense in reference to the rapture in which all believers will be called and gathered together (assembled) with the trumpet of God!
Also, the last trumpet spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:52 is called the trumpet of God in 1 Thess. 4:16 and it is Christ himself who blows the trumpet at the rapture in 1 Thess. as well as in Matt. 24:32. This is not the same as the 7th trumpet because angels blow the trumpets in Rev., not Christ.

3) The mystery of God is finished at the seventh trump. Rev. 10:7
Post-tribbers believe that the mystery of God is the church. Since they believe the 7th trumpet of Rev. is the last trumpet of the rapture, they believe this is when the rapture will happen and the mystery of the church will be finished.


The church was a mystery, but Paul makes it clear that once the church was formed, the mystery was revealed. Ephesians 3:5-6
The mystery of God to be finished at the 7th trumpet can’t be the church.

vinsight4u8
Mar 30th 2008, 07:04 AM
Read thru Deuteronomy chapter 32...esp. verse 34.

Literalist-Luke
Mar 30th 2008, 07:04 AM
Truthinlove, you wouldn't be aiming this at anybody in particular, would you? http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/naughty.gif http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/biggrin1.gif

But seriously, I need to get to bed so I don't fall asleep during the sermon in 9 hours! (That would be especially bad for me since I run the sound! :eek: )

I promise I'll come back in here tomorrow, er uh, later today, and post a reply to silence all the critics. (I'm sure it probably won't work, but hey, we gotta do our best, huh? :D :dunno: )

vinsight4u8
Mar 30th 2008, 07:11 AM
Rev. 22:12 shows us that Jesus will come with His reward - then notice that towards the end of Rev. 11 (where the trumpet story is just being given - and no trumpet events at this point are actually being seen by John - what happens?

Rev. 11:18

reward time is announced

so - links right up with Rev. 22:12

Truthinlove
Mar 30th 2008, 07:54 AM
Truthinlove, you wouldn't be aiming this at anybody in particular, would you? http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/naughty.gif http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/biggrin1.gif

Who me???? ;) :lol:



But seriously, I need to get to bed so I don't fall asleep during the sermon in 9 hours! (That would be especially bad for me since I run the sound! :eek: )

True, that wouldn't be good..hehehe


I promise I'll come back in here tomorrow, er uh, later today, and post a reply to silence all the critics. (I'm sure it probably won't work, but hey, we gotta do our best, huh? :D :dunno: )

Alrighty

Truthinlove
Mar 30th 2008, 08:09 AM
Vinsight,
Could you answer the specific problems I brought up in the OP?
I would prefer the thread to not be derailed, at least this early on. ;)

Merton
Mar 30th 2008, 09:30 AM
I see several things that cause problems with a post-trib rapture and have not had them cleared up for me.


Scripture gives it that the gathering of the saints in the resurrection is after the tribulation even if not exactly immediately.--

Mat 24:29 And immediately after the affliction of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory. Dan. 7:13

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice out of Heaven saying to me, Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Lord from now. Yes, says the Spirit, they shall rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.
Rev 14:14 And I saw; and behold, a white cloud and on the cloud One sitting like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel went forth out of the temple, crying in a great voice to the One sitting on the cloud, Send Your sickle and reap, because Your hour to reap came, because the harvest of the earth was dried.
Rev 14:16 And the One sitting on the cloud thrust His sickle onto the earth, and the earth was reaped.


Rev 11:7 And when they complete their witness, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war with them, and will overcome them, and will kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their bodies will be on the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom, and Egypt, where our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And some from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will see their dead bodies three days and a half; and they do not allow their dead bodies to be put in tombs.
Rev 11:10 And those living on the earth will rejoice over them, and will make merry. And they will send one another gifts, because these two prophets tormented those living on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and a half, a spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet. And great fear fell on the ones beholding them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice out of Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up into the heaven in the cloud. And their enemies saw them.

2Th 1:4 so as for us to boast ourselves in you in the assemblies of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions, and the afflictions which you endure,
2Th 1:5 a clear token of the just judgment of God, for you to be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you indeed suffer;
2Th 1:6 since it is a just thing with God to pay back tribulation to the ones troubling you,
2Th 1:7 and to give you, those being afflicted, relief with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with angels of His power,



When a Pre-wrather shows evidence of a 6th seal rapture, most Post-tribbers agree. They usually believe in a 6th seal rapture as well as a 7th trumpet rapture. But, in order to do this, they must take the chronology of the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments and overlap or telescope them so that the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet occur at the same time. This overlapping of judgments can’t be understood from a normal reading of the text. It must be constructed that way to support the desired outcome.

The seals reveal the scroll of the entire story from mans attempt to conquor the earth to Christs establishment of His Kingdom over it.

The trumpets precede the day of the Lord which begins at the 6th seal but the vials of wrath begin in the 7th seal and end at Armageddon.


The view that the seals are an overview of the 70th week and that the trumpets and bowls run concurrently with them creates several big problems.

1) This overlapping would cause the seals to be a part of the DOTL (God’s wrath). Yet the DOTL begins AFTER the 6th seal (see Joel 2:31). How can Joel 2:31 be true according to the post-trib view? How can they have the DOTL (trumpets and bowls) occurring simultaneously with the seals if the 6th seal precedes the DOTL???

Well the post trib view giving any vials before the day of the Lord beginning at the 6th seal is incorrect. The 70 weeks must end at the resurrection at the end of the 3.5 years of Revelation which is in the 6th seal at the 7th trumpet. The Holy people who are anointed (Dan.9) are the resurrected saints, and both She and Her children are shown in Rev.ch 7.




Another problem in making the seals the DOTL is that during the DOTL the LORD ALONE WILL BE EXALTED. Isaiah 2:11
Yet, we know that at the midpoint of the 70th week, during the seals, the antichrist will EXALT himself in the temple and claim to be God. Therefore the seals can’t be part of the DOTL!

Only the 7th seal is of the day of the Lord as in the vials of it, but the day of the Lord goes on. The Beasts exaltation finishes in the 6th seal at the appearing of Christ to resurrect the saints, and the wrath of the vials is then begun pouring on him. Rev.16.


After the 6th seal is opened, Rev. 7:3 states NO harm to the earth, sea or trees may be done until the sealing of the 144,000. How can the trumpet judgments, which clearly destroy the earth, sea, and trees, have already been occurring, according to the overlap view if the 6th seal MUST PRECEDE the harming of the earth, sea and trees??

The trumpets do not describe the destroying of the earth, sea, and trees, but of the things typed by those descriptions. Rev.12 Joel ch's 1-2. and these trumpets occur during the 6 seals ending in the 6th seal.




These are fatal flaws to the post-trib position.

The text indicates consecutive order of judgments with the language used….then, until and after. The fact that the judgments are numbered 1-7 supports consecutive order as well.

Here are a few more arguments used to support the post-trib view….


1) Christ will raise up those who believe in Him on the last day. John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54



Post-tribbers infer that this “last day” must be the last day of the 70th week.

I disagree. I believe the “last day” is the last day of the end of the age. The Great Commission of making disciples and teaching all that Jesus commanded is until the end of the age. Matt. 28:18-20
The question the disciples asked Jesus during the Olivet Discourse was “tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age.” Matt. 24:3b The end of the age (last day) will be after the cosmic signs of the 6th seal, when the Lord returns and raptures the believers.

The Lords day begins with His coming from Heaven to resurrect the saints, and begins His wrath upon the wicked but yes the His day continues until satan is bound and His Spirit takes over, with the gospel continuing until the end of the age.


2) The resurrection/rapture occurs at the last trumpet.
1 Cor. 15:52


Post-tribbers infer that the “last trumpet” spoken of here must be the 7th trumpet of Revelation.

I do not agree. 1st Cor. was written approx. 40 years before Revelation. Paul had no knowledge of the trumpet judgments of Revelation.
More likely, is that he was using an analogy that his readers would understand. N.T. authors often used cultural analogies to make their points clear.
The analogy would be that the last trumpet when we are raptured would be like the call to assembly which was used in Roman games or in a military context. There was usually a preliminary trumpet or two blown and the last one would be the call to assembly. This would definitely make sense in reference to the rapture in which all believers will be called and gathered together (assembled) with the trumpet of God!
Also, the last trumpet spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:52 is called the trumpet of God in 1 Thess. 4:16 and it is Christ himself who blows the trumpet at the rapture in 1 Thess. as well as in Matt. 24:32. This is not the same as the 7th trumpet because angels blow the trumpets in Rev., not Christ.

Well, all of the trumpets are the Lords voice, the first 6 through His sealed Bride and the seventh being His own person direct. The words of Paul were all inspired by God so the non-reading of other writings or the culture of the times has nothing to do with anything.


3) The mystery of God is finished at the seventh trump.
Rev. 10:7
Post-tribbers believe that the mystery of God is the church. Since they believe the 7th trumpet of Rev. is the last trumpet of the rapture, they believe this is when the rapture will happen and the mystery of the church will be finished.


The church was a mystery, but Paul makes it clear that once the church was formed, the mystery was revealed. Ephesians 3:5-6
The mystery of God to be finished at the 7th trumpet can’t be the church.


There are 7 mysteries of God.

The mystery of God finishes at the 7th trumpet resurrection at the appearing of Christ bodily from Heaven and is how God is and has been in His people.

This mystery is denied by certain religions like that of Jehovah witnesses and the RCC who hide the opportunity of becoming a Temple of God and part of One, from the eyes of man through their religions designed to satisfy something of mans desire for Godliness or to be accepted by God but who will not leave their love of this present world entirely in order to be made like Him and suffer the loss of reputation, wealth, friends and relatives, yet become the receiver of much more in the end and the quality friendship of the few who are the same as themselves now.


Phi 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Phi 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Phi 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing Ido, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.


Yes there is a lesser calling--Mat.25 sheep.

Merton.

Truthinlove
Mar 30th 2008, 10:58 AM
Scripture gives it that the gathering of the saints in the resurrection is after the tribulation even if not exactly immediately.--

Mat 24:29 And immediately after the affliction of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory.

Yes, but herein lies the problem....equating "tribulation" as the entire 70th week. It does not say "after the 70th week". Tribulation is thlipsis in the Greek meaning, trouble, oppression, affliction or persecution. Tribulation is not synonymous with the 70th week, it is a part of it, but that is all. Unfortunately the term has become synonymous with the 7 year period, but the Bible never calls the entire 7 years "the tribulation".

More importantly, the great tribulation will be cut short for the sake of the elect. Matt. 24:21-22 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. The persecution of the saints by antichrist will be cut short by the cosmic signs, the Coming of the Lord and the rapture at the 6th seal, sometime during the 2nd half of the week.


The trumpets precede the day of the Lord which begins at the 6th seal but the vials of wrath begin in the 7th seal and end at Armageddon.Why do you not believe the trumpets are part of the DOTL?


The 70 weeks must end at the resurrection at the end of the 3.5 years of Revelation which is in the 6th seal at the 7th trumpet.I agree the 70th week ends at the 7th trumpet. However, the 6th seal (which is where the resurrection/rapture happens) is earlier, during the 2nd half of the 70th week. I don't see how the overlap theory works, I can't get that from the normal reading of the text and I see too many problems with it.


Only the 7th seal is of the day of the Lord as in the vials of it, but the day of the Lord goes on.I agree the DOTL begins with the 7th seal. But, how do you have only the bowls after it and not the trumpets? The 7 trumpets are what is unleashed after the 7th seal is opened, not the bowls. The bowls come after the 7th trumpet.


The Beasts exaltation finishes in the 6th seal at the appearing of Christ to resurrect the saints, and the wrath of the vials is then begun pouring on him. Rev.16.Again I agree with you about the AC exaltation becoming null at the rapture at the 6th seal, but what I am trying to understand is why you take the trumpets out of the chronological order?


The trumpets do not describe the destroying of the earth, sea, and trees, but of the things typed by those descriptions. Rev.12 Joel ch's 1-2. and these trumpets occur during the 6 seals ending in the 6th seal.Yes, the trumpets DO decribe the destroying of the earth, sea and trees.
1st trumpet - hail and fire thrown to the earth and 1/3 of earth set on fire. 1/3 of grass and trees burned.
2nd trumpet - mountain of fire thrown into the sea, 1/3 of the sea became blood, 1/3 of the life in the sea died, 1/3 of all ships on the sea destroyed.


Ok, and you say that
these trumpets occur during the 6 seals ending in the 6th seal.which is precisely my point. The 1st and 2nd trumpet can NOT occur before the 6th seal because after the 6th seal is opened the angel commands that the earth, sea and trees are not harmed yet! How can that be if you have the trumpets beginning at the 1st seal and finishing at the 6th seal??


Well, all of the trumpets are the Lords voice, the first 6 through His sealed Bride and the seventh being His own person direct.???
The 1st ANGEL blew his trumpet, the 2nd ANGEL blew his trumpet and so on with all 7 trumpets.

"The Lord Himself will descend from heaven....with the trumpet OF GOD" 1st Thess. 4:16

"...the Son of Man coming on the clouds of they sky...and He will send his angels with a loud trumpet call..." Matt. 24:30-31

It is a stretch to say that the 7th trumpet of Rev. is the last trumpet of the rapture. There isn't any other Biblical support other than it is the last of the 7 trumpets blown.


The words of Paul were all inspired by GodAgreed!


the culture of the times has nothing to do with anything.This is simply not true... The Jewish culture and the culture at the time has a LOT to do with understanding Scripture more clearly!!
It makes more sense that he was using an analogy that they would understand.

Firstfruits
Mar 30th 2008, 11:33 AM
I see several things that cause problems with a post-trib rapture and have not had them cleared up for me.


When a Pre-wrather shows evidence of a 6th seal rapture, most Post-tribbers agree. They usually believe in a 6th seal rapture as well as a 7th trumpet rapture. But, in order to do this, they must take the chronology of the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments and overlap or telescope them so that the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet occur at the same time. This overlapping of judgments can’t be understood from a normal reading of the text. It must be constructed that way to support the desired outcome.

The view that the seals are an overview of the 70th week and that the trumpets and bowls run concurrently with them creates several big problems.

1) This overlapping would cause the seals to be a part of the DOTL (God’s wrath). Yet the DOTL begins AFTER the 6th seal (see Joel 2:31). How can Joel 2:31 be true according to the post-trib view? How can they have the DOTL (trumpets and bowls) occurring simultaneously with the seals if the 6th seal precedes the DOTL???

Another problem in making the seals the DOTL is that during the DOTL the LORD ALONE WILL BE EXALTED. Isaiah 2:11
Yet, we know that at the midpoint of the 70th week, during the seals, the antichrist will EXALT himself in the temple and claim to be God. Therefore the seals can’t be part of the DOTL!

After the 6th seal is opened, Rev. 7:3 states NO harm to the earth, sea or trees may be done until the sealing of the 144,000. How can the trumpet judgments, which clearly destroy the earth, sea, and trees, have already been occurring, according to the overlap view if the 6th seal MUST PRECEDE the harming of the earth, sea and trees??

These are fatal flaws to the post-trib position.

The text indicates consecutive order of judgments with the language used….then, until and after. The fact that the judgments are numbered 1-7 supports consecutive order as well.

Here are a few more arguments used to support the post-trib view….


1) Christ will raise up those who believe in Him on the last day. John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54



Post-tribbers infer that this “last day” must be the last day of the 70th week.

I disagree. I believe the “last day” is the last day of the end of the age. The Great Commission of making disciples and teaching all that Jesus commanded is until the end of the age. Matt. 28:18-20
The question the disciples asked Jesus during the Olivet Discourse was “tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age.” Matt. 24:3b The end of the age (last day) will be after the cosmic signs of the 6th seal, when the Lord returns and raptures the believers.

2) The resurrection/rapture occurs at the last trumpet. 1 Cor. 15:52


Post-tribbers infer that the “last trumpet” spoken of here must be the 7th trumpet of Revelation.

I do not agree. 1st Cor. was written approx. 40 years before Revelation. Paul had no knowledge of the trumpet judgments of Revelation.
More likely, is that he was using an analogy that his readers would understand. N.T. authors often used cultural analogies to make their points clear.
The analogy would be that the last trumpet when we are raptured would be like the call to assembly which was used in Roman games or in a military context. There was usually a preliminary trumpet or two blown and the last one would be the call to assembly. This would definitely make sense in reference to the rapture in which all believers will be called and gathered together (assembled) with the trumpet of God!
Also, the last trumpet spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:52 is called the trumpet of God in 1 Thess. 4:16 and it is Christ himself who blows the trumpet at the rapture in 1 Thess. as well as in Matt. 24:32. This is not the same as the 7th trumpet because angels blow the trumpets in Rev., not Christ.

3) The mystery of God is finished at the seventh trump. Rev. 10:7
Post-tribbers believe that the mystery of God is the church. Since they believe the 7th trumpet of Rev. is the last trumpet of the rapture, they believe this is when the rapture will happen and the mystery of the church will be finished.


The church was a mystery, but Paul makes it clear that once the church was formed, the mystery was revealed. Ephesians 3:5-6
The mystery of God to be finished at the 7th trumpet can’t be the church.








According to Jesus those that believe in him and those that do not believe in him will be raised and judged at the last day;

Jn 6:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 12:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Rev 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

What events happen after judgment?

third hero
Mar 30th 2008, 03:41 PM
ok, I have had very little sleep, and the only reason why I am responding right now is because I feel that this has to be stated.

Not all who prescribe themsleves as post-trib believe in the rapture. The rapture, as stated by those who use the word, the pre-tribbers, is a period when Jesus comes and takes his people out of the world. This event happens before the Great Tribulation.

The post-trib view thaty I hold to actually dismisses the whole idea of the Lord coming to get us before the end of the Great Tribulation. The Gathering, or the Meeting in the Air happens at the time of the Lord's coming, and it is not differenciated. The Lord comes, gathers his people, and then destroys the wicked. There is no gap of 3.5 or 7 years, accoridng to the POV that I hold to.


So, it is preferrable that when the OP says that there is some problems with the "post-trib" POV, please recognize that not all who proclaims themselves as post-trib are pre-wrath. There are some who have a view of post-trib that has nothing to do with the pre-trib model of end times events.

Nihil Obstat
Mar 30th 2008, 04:20 PM
I see several things that cause problems with a post-trib rapture and have not had them cleared up for me.

When a Pre-wrather shows evidence of a 6th seal rapture, most Post-tribbers agree. They usually believe in a 6th seal rapture as well as a 7th trumpet rapture. But, in order to do this, they must take the chronology of the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments and overlap or telescope them so that the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet occur at the same time. This overlapping of judgments can’t be understood from a normal reading of the text. It must be constructed that way to support the desired outcome.

The view that the seals are an overview of the 70th week and that the trumpets and bowls run concurrently with them creates several big problems.

1) This overlapping would cause the seals to be a part of the DOTL (God’s wrath). Yet the DOTL begins AFTER the 6th seal (see Joel 2:31). How can Joel 2:31 be true according to the post-trib view? How can they have the DOTL (trumpets and bowls) occurring simultaneously with the seals if the 6th seal precedes the DOTL???

Another problem in making the seals the DOTL is that during the DOTL the LORD ALONE WILL BE EXALTED. Isaiah 2:11
Yet, we know that at the midpoint of the 70th week, during the seals, the antichrist will EXALT himself in the temple and claim to be God. Therefore the seals can’t be part of the DOTL!

After the 6th seal is opened, Rev. 7:3 states NO harm to the earth, sea or trees may be done until the sealing of the 144,000. How can the trumpet judgments, which clearly destroy the earth, sea, and trees, have already been occurring, according to the overlap view if the 6th seal MUST PRECEDE the harming of the earth, sea and trees??

These are fatal flaws to the post-trib position.

The text indicates consecutive order of judgments with the language used….then, until and after. The fact that the judgments are numbered 1-7 supports consecutive order as well.

I am post-trib, but completely disagree that the rapture / resurrection / Lord's return occurs at the sixth seal. I agree that there are seven seals, then seven trumpets, then the rapture / resurrection / Lord's return, then seven bowls. What you are pointing out as "fatal flaws" aren't to the post-trib view, but to the post-tribbers who believe in a sixth seal resurrection.


Here are a few more arguments used to support the post-trib view….

1) Christ will raise up those who believe in Him on the last day. John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54

Post-tribbers infer that this “last day” must be the last day of the 70th week.

I disagree. I believe the “last day” is the last day of the end of the age. The Great Commission of making disciples and teaching all that Jesus commanded is until the end of the age. Matt. 28:18-20
The question the disciples asked Jesus during the Olivet Discourse was “tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age.” Matt. 24:3b The end of the age (last day) will be after the cosmic signs of the 6th seal, when the Lord returns and raptures the believers.

Why the cosmic signs of the sixth seal? Why not any of the other cosmic signs found in later judgments?


2) The resurrection/rapture occurs at the last trumpet. 1 Cor. 15:52

Post-tribbers infer that the “last trumpet” spoken of here must be the 7th trumpet of Revelation.

I do not agree. 1st Cor. was written approx. 40 years before Revelation. Paul had no knowledge of the trumpet judgments of Revelation.
More likely, is that he was using an analogy that his readers would understand. N.T. authors often used cultural analogies to make their points clear.
The analogy would be that the last trumpet when we are raptured would be like the call to assembly which was used in Roman games or in a military context. There was usually a preliminary trumpet or two blown and the last one would be the call to assembly. This would definitely make sense in reference to the rapture in which all believers will be called and gathered together (assembled) with the trumpet of God!
Also, the last trumpet spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:52 is called the trumpet of God in 1 Thess. 4:16 and it is Christ himself who blows the trumpet at the rapture in 1 Thess. as well as in Matt. 24:32. This is not the same as the 7th trumpet because angels blow the trumpets in Rev., not Christ.

The trumpet mentioned in 1 Thess. 4 is the same as John's seventh trumpet. However, in 1 Cor. 15 the trumpet Paul speaks of is referring to the Feast of Trumpets that Jesus will fulfill, just as He is our Passover (5:7; 15:3) and the Firstfruits (15:4, 20, 23). And Matt. 24's trumpet is actually *not* about the rapture, but is a reference to Isa. 27:12-13, and the regathering of the Israelites.


3) The mystery of God is finished at the seventh trump. Rev. 10:7
Post-tribbers believe that the mystery of God is the church. Since they believe the 7th trumpet of Rev. is the last trumpet of the rapture, they believe this is when the rapture will happen and the mystery of the church will be finished.

The church was a mystery, but Paul makes it clear that once the church was formed, the mystery was revealed. Ephesians 3:5-6
The mystery of God to be finished at the 7th trumpet can’t be the church.

I think that you need to rethink this point... every time the word "mystery (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3466&t=kjv)" is used it means "two becoming one", and will forever remain a mystery. If you think that we'll ever in eternity finally understand 1 Tim. 3:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%203:16&version=50), then I wholeheartedly disagree. I think we all need to spend a lot more time in Rev. 10:7 and it's context...

Lk.11

quiet dove
Mar 30th 2008, 05:10 PM
Yea, we do need to show caution here and not lump "post tribbers" in a pile, nobody likes to be globbed in a pileup. When we do that we end up making assumptions that are many times incorrect and based on our preconceived understandings of a view we do not hold and we end up putting words in someone else's mouth and slapping a label on them, and that tends to not go well.

We all need to ask someone what the believe, not tell them what they believe.
:hug:

covenant mom
Mar 30th 2008, 09:50 PM
Yea, we do need to show caution here and not lump "post tribbers" in a pile, nobody likes to be globbed in a pileup. When we do that we end up making assumptions that are many times incorrect and based on our preconceived understandings of a view we do not hold and we end up putting words in someone else's mouth and slapping a label on them, and that tends to not go well.

We all need to ask someone what the believe, not tell them what they believe.
:hug:

I think TruthInLove is responding to what Literalist-Luke & I believe. We are all friends & she is showing us (in love) why she doesn't understand our position. I promise you all that she isn't trying to lump all posties in the same category. She knows that there are different views that posties hold.

Hope that helps. :hug:

covenant mom
Mar 30th 2008, 11:57 PM
I see several things that cause problems with a post-trib rapture and have not had them cleared up for me.


Well, I seriously doubt I will be able to clear anything up for you b/c I'm not the best debater as you've probably seen in the past. I'll let Luke work his debating magic instead....:P




When a Pre-wrather shows evidence of a 6th seal rapture, most Post-tribbers agree. They usually believe in a 6th seal rapture as well as a 7th trumpet rapture. But, in order to do this, they must take the chronology of the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments and overlap or telescope them so that the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet occur at the same time. This overlapping of judgments can’t be understood from a normal reading of the text. It must be constructed that way to support the desired outcome.


Revelations is not written in very sequentialy anyways. It jumps around a little & recaps in places. But more than that I cannot see how the seals could NOT be covering the entire trib. It appears to me that the begining of the seals are depicting the onset of the 70th week & ends w/ the coming of the Lord & the start of the DOTL. I can appreciate your view that this doesn't make sense, but it doesn't pose a problem for me when I see how things fit together when viewed this way.



1) This overlapping would cause the seals to be a part of the DOTL (God’s wrath). Yet the DOTL begins AFTER the 6th seal (see Joel 2:31). How can Joel 2:31 be true according to the post-trib view? How can they have the DOTL (trumpets and bowls) occurring simultaneously with the seals if the 6th seal precedes the DOTL???

without looking back at each trumpet, the short answer is:
b/c none of the trumpets are the DOTL...I don't believe they are describing the DOTL. Within the trumpet events the DOTL wouldn't happen until after the 7th trumpet....the DOTL wouldn't happen until Christ returns which IMO is described @ the 6th seal & the 7th trumpet. Those both describe the return of Christ Jesus which happens prior to the DOTL.


Another problem in making the seals the DOTL is that during the DOTL the LORD ALONE WILL BE EXALTED. Isaiah 2:11
Yet, we know that at the midpoint of the 70th week, during the seals, the antichrist will EXALT himself in the temple and claim to be God. Therefore the seals can’t be part of the DOTL!

Firstly, I'm not making the seals the DOTL...the DOTL IMO would begin AFTERwards. So that particular argument isn't applicable in my view. The Lord will be the only one exalted during the DOTL. My view doesn't conflict with that.


After the 6th seal is opened, Rev. 7:3 states NO harm to the earth, sea or trees may be done until the sealing of the 144,000. How can the trumpet judgments, which clearly destroy the earth, sea, and trees, have already been occurring, according to the overlap view if the 6th seal MUST PRECEDE the harming of the earth, sea and trees??

Right, no harm will befall the 144k until they are sealed which I believe will happen when they (the 144k = remnant) see Christ at His coming in the 6th Seal & they believe thus receive the holy spirit (sealing). The trumpet judgments do not destroy the earth everywhere...only portions. Conversly the DOTL will be a different story. If the trumpet judgments are within the scope from seal #1 - seal # 6 then there isn't an issue.


These are fatal flaws to the post-trib position.

That's fine...I'm not out to change your position. :hug: I just wanted to you to see what I believed so you would know as a friend, what your friend believed. Does that makes sense? I understand your postion enough to know where you are coming from & I see why you believe what you do. I really do. The Prewrath camp just left too many holes IMO.


The text indicates consecutive order of judgments with the language used….then, until and after. The fact that the judgments are numbered 1-7 supports consecutive order as well.

I don't know. I could just as easily argue that if they were supposed to be in consecutive order...why 3 sets of 7 instead of one set of 21?


Here are a few more arguments used to support the post-trib view….
1) Christ will raise up those who believe in Him on the last day. John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54
Post-tribbers infer that this “last day” must be the last day of the 70th week.
I disagree. I believe the “last day” is the last day of the end of the age. The Great Commission of making disciples and teaching all that Jesus commanded is until the end of the age. Matt. 28:18-20
The question the disciples asked Jesus during the Olivet Discourse was “tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age.” Matt. 24:3b The end of the age (last day) will be after the cosmic signs of the 6th seal, when the Lord returns and raptures the believers.

I believe the same as the statement I bolded ~ only our timing of the 6th seal in the scope of things is where we differ.


2) The resurrection/rapture occurs at the last trumpet. 1 Cor. 15:52
Post-tribbers infer that the “last trumpet” spoken of here must be the 7th trumpet of Revelation.
I do not agree. 1st Cor. was written approx. 40 years before Revelation. Paul had no knowledge of the trumpet judgments of Revelation.
More likely, is that he was using an analogy that his readers would understand. N.T. authors often used cultural analogies to make their points clear.
The analogy would be that the last trumpet when we are raptured would be like the call to assembly which was used in Roman games or in a military context. There was usually a preliminary trumpet or two blown and the last one would be the call to assembly. This would definitely make sense in reference to the rapture in which all believers will be called and gathered together (assembled) with the trumpet of God!
Also, the last trumpet spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:52 is called the trumpet of God in 1 Thess. 4:16 and it is Christ himself who blows the trumpet at the rapture in 1 Thess. as well as in Matt. 24:32. This is not the same as the 7th trumpet because angels blow the trumpets in Rev., not Christ.

I've heard the argument before that Paul wouldn't have know what that there would be 7 trumpets, but that is a very bad argument IMO. How did anyone know any of the holy scriptures they wrote?...why the Holy Spirit of course. Paul wouldn't have had to have known exactly what his words indicated to be inspired to say them/write them.


3) The mystery of God is finished at the seventh trump. Rev. 10:7
Post-tribbers believe that the mystery of God is the church. Since they believe the 7th trumpet of Rev. is the last trumpet of the rapture, they believe this is when the rapture will happen and the mystery of the church will be finished.
The church was a mystery, but Paul makes it clear that once the church was formed, the mystery was revealed. Ephesians 3:5-6
The mystery of God to be finished at the 7th trumpet can’t be the church.

I've never heard that the church is the mystery revealed @ the 7th trump.
???
That mystery that was spoken of by the prophets is probably the revelation of Christ to the world, but I certainly don't think it's the church.
What do you think the mystery is?

covenant mom
Mar 31st 2008, 12:22 AM
............

The seals reveal the scroll of the entire story from mans attempt to conquor the earth to Christs establishment of His Kingdom over it.

Well the post trib view giving any vials before the day of the Lord beginning at the 6th seal is incorrect. The 70 weeks must end at the resurrection at the end of the 3.5 years of Revelation which is in the 6th seal at the 7th trumpet. The Holy people who are anointed (Dan.9) are the resurrected saints, and both She and Her children are shown in Rev.ch 7.

Merton.

Merton,
I had questions about these two things you talked about. First, can you expound on the view that the seals reveal the scroll of the entire story from mans attempt.... to Christ's kingdom? That is a very interesting perspective that I have not heard before. I actually could see how one could view it this way, but I'd have to know more about the idea.

Secondly, I looked up Dan 9 & saw no refference to a Holy people who were anointed. I saw "holy city & holy place" & "Anointed One", but nothing that matched your description. Could you have been in the wrong chapter there?
And I saw no refrence to She & Her children anywhere in Rev 7....are you talking about the "Woman" in another chapter in Rev?

covenant mom
Mar 31st 2008, 12:28 AM
Rev. 22:12 shows us that Jesus will come with His reward - then notice that towards the end of Rev. 11 (where the trumpet story is just being given - and no trumpet events at this point are actually being seen by John - what happens?

Rev. 11:18

reward time is announced

so - links right up with Rev. 22:12

This is totally said in a sweet/loving spirit....

I have trouble understand your points sometimes....maybe I'm a little dense? Okay, alot dense. :blush:

Can you make your thoughts more clear? You remind me of another poster I know named Frank (whom I love btw) that always uses questions to answer questions. I told him the same thing....:help: I need things bluntly spelled out for me to be able to process what is being said. The way you worded this leaves me guessing what your point is.

Maybe it's just me & if so carry on!!!! :hug:

Truthinlove
Mar 31st 2008, 12:46 AM
I think TruthInLove is responding to what Literalist-Luke & I believe. We are all friends & she is showing us (in love) why she doesn't understand our position. I promise you all that she isn't trying to lump all posties in the same category. She knows that there are different views that posties hold.

Hope that helps. :hug:

Yep, right. :hug:

BTW, CM...too tired to answer your posts until tomorrow...not good sleep and have to get ready to go soon..ya know?

But....would like to clarify for everyone that I guess I should have said I had problems with the view of overlapping the seals, trumpets and bowls.

I do realize that posties have different opinions, apparently the majority on here do not believe in an overlap view...?

Carry on ;) I'll get back to this thread later

covenant mom
Mar 31st 2008, 12:53 AM
Yep, right. :hug:

BTW, CM...too tired to answer your posts until tomorrow...not good sleep and have to get ready to go soon..ya know?

But....would like to clarify for everyone that I guess I should have said I had problems with the view of overlapping the seals, trumpets and bowls.

I do realize that posties have different opinions, apparently the majority on here do not believe in an overlap view...?

Carry on ;) I'll get back to this thread later

Sounds good, friend! :kiss:

Truthinlove
Mar 31st 2008, 01:58 AM
Since I won't be able to post for a while, could you post tribbers do me a fav? Since there seems to be a variety of opinions on this board....

Could you give your timeline?

For example.....

Seal 1 at beginning of week, trumpet 1 same time
Seal 2 with trumpet 2



When do the bowl judgments begin? How long do they last?

Thanks

Truthinlove
Mar 31st 2008, 02:00 AM
Read thru Deuteronomy chapter 32...esp. verse 34.

I did, not sure how it relates to the problems I see with post trib at all :confused

Merton
Mar 31st 2008, 03:45 AM
Merton,
I had questions about these two things you talked about. First, can you expound on the view that the seals reveal the scroll of the entire story from mans attempt.... to Christ's kingdom? That is a very interesting perspective that I have not heard before. I actually could see how one could view it this way, but I'd have to know more about the idea.

Secondly, I looked up Dan 9 & saw no refference to a Holy people who were anointed. I saw "holy city & holy place" & "Anointed One", but nothing that matched your description. Could you have been in the wrong chapter there?
And I saw no refrence to She & Her children anywhere in Rev 7....are you talking about the "Woman" in another chapter in Rev



We have to study the events of the past to see at what point God intervened into the affairs of men who He had ordained for ther task but had fallen into apostacy. The sons of God of Noahs time, of Jobs time, both speak of the same thing which happened in Israel of the OT, and will happen in the churches in the future. That is they speak of the great falling away, the apostacy. 2 Thes ch 2. Isaiah ch 4 verse 1. and throughout the books of the prophets.

Judgment upon the apostacies required that they be spoken to first by God , and that by those separated out from the apostacy through others who never were part of it.

Trumpets speak of such a time when Christ and His faithfull walk out of the apostate churches and judgments fall on it, with the hope of some repenting as also occurred when the early church spoke to Israel during their persecution of the saints and right up to 68AD Israel gradually had fallen apart as even Rome forsook her, when she had trusted in Rome with her riches for her survival, but in any case the leaders of Israel were Roman apointees and the priesthood and temple corrupted, well before Jesus began to minister.

When God spoke to Abraham about having a son in his old age then they could not wait for God to fulfill His promise and used the egyptian woman to bring forth Ishamail, a child of the flesh and root cause principle behind the church bringing forth the latter Israel of the flesh in the middle east and pleading with God that they should live before Him.

Well, Rev.7 shows the people of the Heavenly Jerusalem, the anointed House of God, which was typed by OT Israel, described in scripture as a woman and Bride of Christ, with Her children the great multitude drawn from all nations, not of any particular flesh, but all being mortal children of Zion, begotten by the endtime ministries of the saints of the resurrection in the 3.5 years before their resurrection. Isaiah ch 49. Isaiah ch 10.

The "third" of Rev.ch 8 ch 9 and Revch 12 does not refer to a portion of but the whole and that whole refers to endtimes remnant of the churches who were established by the early church--

Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man thatis my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

This did occur 2000 years ago as also did this--

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Mal 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

Mal 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger fromhisright, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.


Just what Israel of the OT went through which ended their age, so also will the churches at the end of their age.


Merton.

Merton
Mar 31st 2008, 04:21 AM
An example from trumpets--


Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.


As it happens these are symbols of other things, because one third of the sun will not be smitten or go out.

However the entire light of the churches fathers, mothers, brothers, will go completely out because of its endtimes apostacy and the judgments that God gives to it, as below scripture states--

Mic 3:4 Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings.
Mic 3:5 Thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth, and cry, Peace; and he that putteth not into their mouths, they even prepare war against him.
Mic 3:6 Therefore night shallbe unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them.
Mic 3:7 Then shall the seers be ashamed, and the diviners confounded: yea, they shall all cover their lips; for thereis no answer of God.


Understand that the church (the Body of Christ) established the churches but the uncircumcised have infiltrated its ranks, but the church itself is not all apostate for the sealed ones are not subject to these trumpet judgments, but rather it is they who blow the trumpets but the breath of them is the Lord.

Mat 25:6 And at midnight, a cry occurred: Behold, the bridegroom comes! Go out to meet him.
Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for itis nigh at hand;


Joe 2:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
Joe 2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
Joe 2:17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?


Rev 1:10 I came to be in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 saying, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last;

Isa 58:1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and show my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

This all must occur before the resurrection, while the beast is in power, but the vials of wrath can only begin when the Lord returns. 2 Thes. ch 1.

Merton.

Literalist-Luke
Mar 31st 2008, 04:44 AM
When a Pre-wrather shows evidence of a 6th seal rapture, most Post-tribbers agree. They usually believe in a 6th seal rapture as well as a 7th trumpet rapture. But, in order to do this, they must take the chronology of the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments and overlap or telescope them so that the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet occur at the same time. This overlapping of judgments can’t be understood from a normal reading of the text. It must be constructed that way to support the desired outcome.I arrived at my post-trib position in exactly the opposite way. I noticed several point of parallelism within Revelation, including the seventh trumpet/sixth seal and consequently concluded that Post-Trib is the Truth. (That’s an oversimplification of the process I went through, but it’ll get the point across.)
The view that the seals are an overview of the 70th week and that the trumpets and bowls run concurrently with them creates several big problems.

1) This overlapping would cause the seals to be a part of the DOTL (God’s wrath). I would not agree with that. The Day of the Lord is between the Sixth and Seventh Seals.
Yet the DOTL begins AFTER the 6th seal (see Joel 2:31). How can Joel 2:31 be true according to the post-trib view? How can they have the DOTL (trumpets and bowls) occurring simultaneously with the seals if the 6th seal precedes the DOTL??? The trumpets and bowls do not constitute the Day of the Lord. That is a separate event that takes place after all the trumpets and bowls are finished.
Another problem in making the seals the DOTL is that during the DOTL the LORD ALONE WILL BE EXALTED. Isaiah 2:11
Yet, we know that at the midpoint of the 70th week, during the seals, the antichrist will EXALT himself in the temple and claim to be God. Therefore the seals can’t be part of the DOTL! That is correct.
After the 6th seal is opened, Rev. 7:3 states NO harm to the earth, sea or trees may be done until the sealing of the 144,000. How can the trumpet judgments, which clearly destroy the earth, sea, and trees, have already been occurring, according to the overlap view if the 6th seal MUST PRECEDE the harming of the earth, sea and trees?? Here is the sequence of events around Revelation 7: The Sixth Seal is opened at the same time the Seventh Trumpet is blown and the same time the Seventh Bowl is poured out. Christ appears in the sky, Israel sees Him, realizes who He is and “mourns for Him whom they have pierced” (like it says in Zechariah). At this point “all Israel is saved”, to echo Paul’s words from Romans. This is represented in Revelation 7 with the sealing of the 144,000. The 144,000 sealing is the moment that Israel is saved. At the same time, the Rapture occurs. Immediately after this, the Day of the Lord is poured out on the earth. Next, the “great multitude” we see is NOT a scene in heaven as is commonly believed. It is a celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles during the Millennium at Ezekiel’s Temple in Jerusalem.
These are fatal flaws to the post-trib position.Not for me they ain’t. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/biggrin1.gif
The text indicates consecutive order of judgments with the language used….then, until and after. The fact that the judgments are numbered 1-7 supports consecutive order as well. They are indeed consecutive within each group of seven. However, the parallel points supports links of unity, showing where different segments of the overall scenario are linked.
Here are a few more arguments used to support the post-trib view….

1) Christ will raise up those who believe in Him on the last day. John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54

Post-tribbers infer that this “last day” must be the last day of the 70th week.

I disagree. I believe the “last day” is the last day of the end of the age. What’s the difference?
The Great Commission of making disciples and teaching all that Jesus commanded is until the end of the age. Matt. 28:18-20
The question the disciples asked Jesus during the Olivet Discourse was “tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age.” Matt. 24:3b The end of the age (last day) will be after the cosmic signs of the 6th seal, when the Lord returns and raptures the believers. I don’t see why this is a problem. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/noidea.gif
2) The resurrection/rapture occurs at the last trumpet. 1 Cor. 15:52

Post-tribbers infer that the “last trumpet” spoken of here must be the 7th trumpet of Revelation. Not this post-tribber. The Last Trumpet spoken of by Paul was referring to Jesus’ statement at Matthew 24:31 – “ And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. ”

Matthew 24:31 and I Corinthians 15:52 are a perfect match. We have no reason to believe that Paul knew anything about the series of seven trumpets since Revelation would not be written until a number of years after Paul’s death.
I do not agree. 1st Cor. was written approx. 40 years before Revelation. Paul had no knowledge of the trumpet judgments of Revelation. Exactly.
More likely, is that he was using an analogy that his readers would understand. N.T. authors often used cultural analogies to make their points clear.
The analogy would be that the last trumpet when we are raptured would be like the call to assembly which was used in Roman games or in a military context. Uh oh, now we’re getting into random guessing. I would’ve at least expected you to use the final trumpet blast in the Feast of Trumpets to support your position, that would at least give you a Scripture to base your argument on. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/nod.gif
There was usually a preliminary trumpet or two blown and the last one would be the call to assembly. This would definitely make sense in reference to the rapture in which all believers will be called and gathered together (assembled) with the trumpet of God! Thanks, I’ll just stick with Scriptural connections.
Also, the last trumpet spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:52 is called the trumpet of God in 1 Thess. 4:16 and it is Christ himself who blows the trumpet at the rapture in 1 Thess. as well as in Matt. 24:32. This is not the same as the 7th trumpet because angels blow the trumpets in Rev., not Christ.Thanks, you just made my point.
3) The mystery of God is finished at the seventh trump. Rev. 10:7That is precisely why the seventh trumpet would be parallel with the end of the tribulation. It is finished!
Post-tribbers believe that the mystery of God is the church. Since they believe the 7th trumpet of Rev. is the last trumpet of the rapture, they believe this is when the rapture will happen and the mystery of the church will be finished. I hadn’t thought about that angle, but I don’t see it being a problem.
The church was a mystery, but Paul makes it clear that once the church was formed, the mystery was revealed. Ephesians 3:5-6
The mystery of God to be finished at the 7th trumpet can’t be the church.OK, so the Church isn’t the mystery of God. So?

Literalist-Luke
Mar 31st 2008, 04:49 AM
Read thru Deuteronomy chapter 32...esp. verse 34.What is it about verse 34 that you are referring to? http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/confused.gif

Literalist-Luke
Mar 31st 2008, 04:58 AM
The trumpets precede the day of the Lord which begins at the 6th seal but the vials of wrath begin in the 7th seal and end at Armageddon.It appears to me that the sixth seal would have to be parallel with the seventh bowl. Look at how similar each one’s description is.
Well the post trib view giving any vials before the day of the Lord beginning at the 6th seal is incorrect. The 70 weeks must end at the resurrection at the end of the 3.5 years of Revelation which is in the 6th seal at the 7th trumpet. The Holy people who are anointed (Dan.9) are the resurrected saints, and both She and Her children are shown in Rev.ch 7. So why is that a problem with the Seventh Bowl paralleling the Sixth Seal?
Only the 7th seal is of the day of the Lord as in the vials of it, but the day of the Lord goes on. The Seventh Seal portrays silence, not wrath.
The Beasts exaltation finishes in the 6th seal at the appearing of Christ to resurrect the saints, and the wrath of the vials is then begun pouring on him. Rev.16. The trumpets do not describe the destroying of the earth, sea, and trees, but of the things typed by those descriptions. Rev.12 Joel ch's 1-2. and these trumpets occur during the 6 seals ending in the 6th seal. I’m agreeing with most of what you’re saying, other than just the timing of the bowls.
The Lords day begins with His coming from Heaven to resurrect the saints, and begins His wrath upon the wicked but yes the His day continues until satan is bound and His Spirit takes over, with the gospel continuing until the end of the age. Well, all of the trumpets are the Lords voice, the first 6 through His sealed Bride and the seventh being His own person direct. How do you arrive at that conclusion?
The words of Paul were all inspired by God so the non-reading of other writings or the culture of the times has nothing to do with anything. Paul was not writing mechanically, unaware of what he was saying. That statement would have had to make sense to his recipients in Corinth. However, with Matthew 24:31, it’s not an issue anyway.

Literalist-Luke
Mar 31st 2008, 05:27 AM
Yes, but herein lies the problem....equating "tribulation" as the entire 70th week. It does not say "after the 70th week". Tribulation is thlipsis in the Greek meaning, trouble, oppression, affliction or persecution. Tribulation is not synonymous with the 70th week, it is a part of it, but that is all. Unfortunately the term has become synonymous with the 7 year period, but the Bible never calls the entire 7 years "the tribulation".Neither does it say that they are separate.
More importantly, the great tribulation will be cut short for the sake of the elect. Matt. 24:21-22 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. The persecution of the saints by antichrist will be cut short by the cosmic signs, the Coming of the Lord and the rapture at the 6th seal, sometime during the 2nd half of the week.Right, and the Antichrist’s efforts will be cut short right at the 2,520th day of the 70th Week/Tribulation.
Why do you not believe the trumpets are part of the DOTL?Because they Day of the Lord is said to take place with the Lord being present. Here, this order of events might help to clear things up:

1. Before the Day of the Lord, the armies of the nations mass around Jerusalem for the battle of Armageddon [Joel 3:9-14, Rev. 16:13-16]

2. The sun turns black and the moon turns dark red “immediately after the tribulation” [Matt. 24:29, Mark 13:24], perhaps hours or moments before the "Day of the Lord" [Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20].

3. Jesus sitting on a white horse, the Father coming on His Throne [Ezek. 43:1-7 (cf. Ezek. 1:4- 28), Dan. 7:21,22, Mark 14:62, Rev. 6:16,17], the angels, and saints who have died, descend from heaven, circle the earth from east to west for all to see [Matt. 24:27, Rev. 1:7], and hover above the Mount of Olives and Petra/Bosrah in a thick cloud cover [Zech. 14:4,5b, Joel 2:2, Zeph. 1:15].

4. Jesus sounds the trumpet, the dead believers are raised and the living changed [1 Cor. 15:50- 54], His angels are dispatched over the whole earth to gather together His elect in the clouds above the Mount of Olives and over Petra/Bosrah [Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, 1 Thess. 4:13-17].

5. Meteors/hailstones fall from the sky .

6. The cloud cover over the Mount of Olives rolls back, revealing Christ, the Father, saints and angels [Isa. 34:4, Rev. 6:14], the people gathered for battle run for cover among the rocks [Isa. 2:10,19, Rev. 6:15-17].

7. The Jewish remnant in Petra/Bosrah, preserved by God throughout the tribulation [Isa. 26:20,21, Rev. 12:6,14], recognize Jesus as the Messiah, repent and believe, and are saved and sealed [Isa. 10:20,21, Isa. 66:8, Joel 2:32, 3:21, Zech. 12:9,10, 13:1,8,9, Mal. 3:1-3, 4:16-5:3, Rom. 11:26,27, Rev. 7:3-8].

8. Christ descends to Petra/Bosrah, and battles the Antichrist’s forces all the way to the Mount of Olives [Zech. 14:4, Acts 1:11,12], the world's largest earthquake occurs [Isa. 2:19,21, Isa. 13:13, Isa. 24:18-23, Ezek. 38:19,20, Joel 3:16, Hag. 2:6,7,21, Nahum 1:5,6, Heb. 12:26,27, Rev. 6:14, Rev. 16:18], the Mount of Olives splits in two from east to west, and the faithful Jewish remnant flees toward Christ, through the valley created by the splitting of the mountain [Zech. 14:4,5].

9. The battle continues, Christ throws the Antichrist and False prophet into the lake of fire and destroys the remaining kings [Rev. 19:11-21].

10. The angelic army takes care of the rest of the armies of the nations with fire [Isa. 13:3-11, Isa. 66:15,16, Joel 2:1-11 (cf. 2 Kings 6:17), Zech. 14:12, 2 Thess. 1:7-10].

11. The Lord destroys the remaining Jews who have worshipped the image of the Beast [Amos 5:15-20, Zeph. 1:all, Zech. 13:7-9]

12. The earth is purged by fire and the curse removed [Isa. 10:17-23, Nahum 1:2-6, Mal. 4:1-3, Romans 8:19-23, 2 Peter 3:10-12 (cf. Isa. 65:17-25)]
I agree the 70th week ends at the 7th trumpet. However, the 6th seal (which is where the resurrection/rapture happens) is earlier, during the 2nd half of the 70th week. I don't see how the overlap theory works, I can't get that from the normal reading of the text and I see too many problems with it. You might find this thread helpful.
I agree the DOTL begins with the 7th seal.It’s actually between the Sixth and Seventh Seals.
But, how do you have only the bowls after it and not the trumpets? The 7 trumpets are what is unleashed after the 7th seal is opened, not the bowls. The bowls come after the 7th trumpet.The description of the trumpets comes after the seals in Revelation, but that is not their precise chronological order. The Gospel of Luke’s description of the birth of Jesus comes after Mark’s description of the crucifixion, but that doesn’t mean that Jesus was born after the crucifixion. They’re just not given chronologically. The same thing happens between these different sections of Revelation. We have to piece the events together using the points of parallelism that we find there.
Again I agree with you about the AC exaltation becoming null at the rapture at the 6th seal, but what I am trying to understand is why you take the trumpets out of the chronological order?Because the seventh Trumpet’s description is an almost perfect match with the Sixth Seal and the Seventh Bowl.
Yes, the trumpets DO describe the destroying of the earth, sea and trees.

1st trumpet - hail and fire thrown to the earth and 1/3 of earth set on fire. 1/3 of grass and trees burned.
2nd trumpet - mountain of fire thrown into the sea, 1/3 of the sea became blood, 1/3 of the life in the sea died, 1/3 of all ships on the sea destroyed.

Ok, and you say that which is precisely my point. The 1st and 2nd trumpet can NOT occur before the 6th seal because after the 6th seal is opened the angel commands that the earth, sea and trees are not harmed yet! How can that be if you have the trumpets beginning at the 1st seal and finishing at the 6th seal?? Look at it closer.

Revelation 7:2-3 – “[i]I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: ‘Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.’ ”

In this instance where harm is about to be done to the land, the sea, and the trees, there are four angels on the earth who are being charged with the task. However, in the trumpets and bowls, there are no angels on the earth causing the damage. True, there are angels blowing the trumpets and pouring out the bowls, but those are 14 angels (7+7), not four angels. So Revelation must be speaking of two separate instances of harm coming to the earth. The one that the four angels of Revelation 7:2-3 are about to carry out is the Day of the Lord.
The 1st ANGEL blew his trumpet, the 2nd ANGEL blew his trumpet and so on with all 7 trumpets.

"The Lord Himself will descend from heaven....with the trumpet OF GOD" 1st Thess. 4:16

"...the Son of Man coming on the clouds of they sky...and He will send his angels with a loud trumpet call..." Matt. 24:30-31

It is a stretch to say that the 7th trumpet of Rev. is the last trumpet of the rapture. There isn't any other Biblical support other than it is the last of the 7 trumpets blown. Matthew 24:31

Agreed!

This is simply not true... The Jewish culture and the culture at the time has a LOT to do with understanding Scripture more clearly!!
It makes more sense that he was using an analogy that they would understand.Yes, I would agree – he was referring to Jesus’ Olivet Discourse, specifically, Matthew 24:31.

Literalist-Luke
Mar 31st 2008, 05:35 AM
I am post-trib, but completely disagree that the rapture / resurrection / Lord's return occurs at the sixth seal. I agree that there are seven seals, then seven trumpets, then the rapture / resurrection / Lord's return, then seven bowls. What you are pointing out as "fatal flaws" aren't to the post-trib view, but to the post-tribbers who believe in a sixth seal resurrection.This scenario does cause a whole new set of problem, however. I'll save them for another thread so as to not derail this one.
Why the cosmic signs of the sixth seal? Why not any of the other cosmic signs found in later judgments?They're all the same occurrence.
The trumpet mentioned in 1 Thess. 4 is the same as John's seventh trumpet.That is an unsupportable conclusion. Paul knew nothing of Revelation.
However, in 1 Cor. 15 the trumpet Paul speaks of is referring to the Feast of Trumpets that Jesus will fulfill, just as He is our Passover (5:7; 15:3) and the Firstfruits (15:4, 20, 23). And Matt. 24's trumpet is actually *not* about the rapture, but is a reference to Isa. 27:12-13, and the regathering of the Israelites.Those who would dismiss the Olivet Discourse as being addressed to "Israel" must also explain why the Upper Room Discourse in the Gospel of John is not addressed to Israel. There is nothing to support that claim.
I think that you need to rethink this point... every time the word "mystery (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3466&t=kjv)" is used it means "two becoming one", and will forever remain a mystery. If you think that we'll ever in eternity finally understand 1 Tim. 3:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%203:16&version=50), then I wholeheartedly disagree. I think we all need to spend a lot more time in Rev. 10:7 and it's context...

Lk.11In eternity, we certainly will understand everything. We'll have God right there to answer our questions!

Literalist-Luke
Mar 31st 2008, 05:44 AM
I could just as easily argue that if they were supposed to be in consecutive order...why 3 sets of 7 instead of one set of 21?This is an excellent point, thanks. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/thumb.gif

markedward
Mar 31st 2008, 06:00 AM
Jesus' words on the end of the age:

The signs of the season of the end of the age.

Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.

The tribulation.

Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations...

Jesus clearly states that the "end" would come after the persecution of His followers (above).

... and then the end will come.

"The end"

So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time. So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

The darkening of the sun and the moon, and the dissolution of the stars and the heavens are fairly common-place Old Testament prophetic statements to signify God's judgment has come.

Immediately after the distress of those days 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

This, the "rapture:"

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

So, summarizing the above, Jesus stated as much as this:

Watch out for false prophets and messiahs. There will be wars, famines and earthquakes. THEN you will be handed over for persecution. (The tribulation.) THEN the end will come; the abomination of desolation. THEN there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars. THEN the Son of Man will come on the clouds, and He will gather His elect.

Jesus, in my opinion, very clearly taught a "post-tribulation rapture." Chronologicially speaking, He taught: (1) Signs of the coming end of the age then (2) The tribulation then (3) The end of the age then (4) The Coming. The only way, as I see it, that anything other than a "post-trib rapture" could work is if someone rearranged what Jesus said, such as moving (4) to before (1) or (2).

covenant mom
Mar 31st 2008, 05:01 PM
Paul knew nothing of Revelation.

I can't figure this logic out! You & TruthInLove made that same argument, but I just don't get it. :hmm:

Where does Paul get any of the knowledge to write the Word? From someone who IS the Word, of course. "cha ching" (I feel so witty right now :D)

How is that an issue for you, little Lukerson? :o

covenant mom
Mar 31st 2008, 05:03 PM
way, as I see it, that anything other than a "post-trib rapture" could work is if someone rearranged what Jesus said, such as moving (4) to before (1) or (2).

:bounce:

Posties rock!

Literalist-Luke
Mar 31st 2008, 05:36 PM
I can't figure this logic out! You & TruthInLove made that same argument, but I just don't get it. :hmm:

Where does Paul get any of the knowledge to write the Word? From someone who IS the Word, of course. "cha ching" (I feel so witty right now :D)

How is that an issue for you, little Lukerson? :oSeems to me that if he had known about the contents of Revelation in advance, he probably would've taught/written about it. The Old Testament prophets all wrote extensively about Jesus in advance because they were being inspired directly by the Spirit of Jesus, yet none of them knew His name or many other details about Him, even though that information was revealed later in separate books. Here is Jesus' own statement about it:

Matthew 13:17 - "Many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it."

Even though the prophets were given a great deal of information to share, they still did not see the whole picture. As Jesus says here, they would have loved to see it, but that was not given to anybody until the generation of the Apostles.

In like fashion, just because Paul was given a great deal of information to pass along in his epistles does not mean that he was shown the whole game plan.

covenant mom
Mar 31st 2008, 05:50 PM
Seems to me that if he had known about the contents of Revelation in advance, he probably would've taught/written about it. The Old Testament prophets all wrote extensively about Jesus in advance because they were being inspired directly by the Spirit of Jesus, yet none of them knew His name or many other details about Him, even though that information was revealed later in separate books. Here is Jesus' own statement about it:

Matthew 13:17 - "Many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it."

Even though the prophets were given a great deal of information to share, they still did not see the whole picture. As Jesus says here, they would have loved to see it, but that was not given to anybody until the generation of the Apostles.

In like fashion, just because Paul was given a great deal of information to pass along in his epistles does not mean that he was shown the whole game plan.

Feeling led to say "at the last trump" may not have held full meaning for him but it doesn't mean the Holy Spirit couldn't have inpired him to write it. Surely he didn't question the deep meaning/full picture behind all the words he penned in his epistles.

That's my point. Take it or leave it....:P

David Taylor
Mar 31st 2008, 05:51 PM
Paul wasn't given all of the Revelation info; but what info Paul was given, we can take to the bank, would 100% harmonize with the Revelation that was soon to be written down by John.

We have to stand on the inspiration and harmonization of the scriptures one to another; even though Job was written roughly 1500-2000ish years before Revelation; we know they harmonize and do not contradict.

Job was told that the dead will not rise, until the Heavens be no more.

We know that in Revelation, even by the time the heavens are rolling up like a scroll; the resurrection of man, like Job said, has not year occurred.

So when Paul mentions the last trumpet as being the time of the resurrection; and John tells us that the 7th trumpet is when time is no more, and the 7th trumpet is 'the time of the dead' that they are judged and rewarded....we can know that they are the same.

Paul didn't know of 7, but he know some details of what would occur at the last one; and that is 'the time of the dead', when the mystery is finished, when time is no more. All syncronous. All harmonious. No conflict.

covenant mom
Mar 31st 2008, 06:53 PM
Paul wasn't given all of the Revelation info; but what info Paul was given, we can take to the bank, would 100% harmonize with the Revelation that was soon to be written down by John.

We have to stand on the inspiration and harmonization of the scriptures one to another; even though Job was written roughly 1500-2000ish years before Revelation; we know they harmonize and do not contradict.

Job was told that the dead will not rise, until the Heavens be no more.

We know that in Revelation, even by the time the heavens are rolling up like a scroll; the resurrection of man, like Job said, has not year occurred.

So when Paul mentions the last trumpet as being the time of the resurrection; and John tells us that the 7th trumpet is when time is no more, and the 7th trumpet is 'the time of the dead' that they are judged and rewarded....we can know that they are the same.

Paul didn't know of 7, but he know some details of what would occur at the last one; and that is 'the time of the dead', when the mystery is finished, when time is no more. All syncronous. All harmonious. No conflict.

very, very, very, very well said.

That's what I wanted to articulate, but ended up saying it very awkwardly as usual. :curtsy

vinsight4u8
Mar 31st 2008, 10:08 PM
Vinsight,
Could you answer the specific problems I brought up in the OP?
I would prefer the thread to not be derailed, at least this early on. ;)

I wasn't trying to derail your thread...I was trying to point you in some of the directions you need to go to gain understanding as to your questions you want answered.

One thing you write of is that Rev. 7 follows Rev. 6. Okay, that is true, but look at Rev. 7 as a hard go -at -it section that gives more clarification as to the worst part of chapter 6.

Rev. 6/4th seal
the rider now has names
>leads us to
seal 5
the great tribulation martyrs
?Hey, aren't the two witnesses among this goup?
that is a 6th trumpet slaying
see Rev. 11

seal 6
end of trib signs
DOTL begins
rapture of the church

Rev. 7:1
"And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth..."

A sealing time will now be done - but we know that this was to protect Israeli people during the 5th seal - 6th trumpet and more.
Rev. 7 is taking us back in time - John sees more stuff, but it deals with what he just saw in chapter 6.

Rev. 7:14
"...out of great tribulation.."
/so the 5th seal martyred group - the 6th trumpet martyrs

covenant mom
Mar 31st 2008, 10:22 PM
Rev. 6/4th seal
the rider now has names
>leads us to
seal 5
the great tribulation martyrs
?Hey, aren't the two witnesses among this goup?
that is a 6th trumpet slaying
see Rev. 11



I've never thought about that before. That would make sense.

Is there any particular reason that you'd think the 2 witnesses are amoung that group (other than the obvious)? In other words are you just putting 2 & 2 together or is there another scripture to support it? :hmm:

vinsight4u8
Mar 31st 2008, 11:20 PM
I've never thought about that before. That would make sense.

Is there any particular reason that you'd think the 2 witnesses are amoung that group (other than the obvious)? In other words are you just putting 2 & 2 together or is there another scripture to support it? :hmm:

The two witnesses get slain by the beast, seems to be towards the very end of the great tribulation time. They get slain, and the wicked world begins to party - or such -they send gifts to each other. But their peace and safety time ends when the Lord returns at cloud time, the great earthquake (third woe) also happens, and the two witnesses stand to their feet - as trib martyrs - as among those that gained victory over the beast.


Rev. 11 begins with an angel speaking to John. John does not say, I saw such and such and such and more than that and then such and such. John instead, writes down the words of the angel.

Rev. 11
John was given a reed
and the angel stood saying

John is to measure the temple - not a real temple there - but the pattern of a future one - the endtime one.
This new temple will have the outer court area as given to the Gentiles.
These Gentiles will tread Jerusalem under for 42 months. /the time of the great trib

At this point, John has been seeing things in chapters 9:13-10 as to the 6th trumpet (2nd woe) and nothing yet is seen as to the 7th trumpet, in now slides the story given by an angel so as to go deeper into the events from the 6th to the 7th trumpet ....as in the great trib time.

the temple was built
Jerusalem will be tread under for 42 months by the Gentiles -
Verse 3 /the angel is still speaking
"And I will give {power} unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred {and} threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

Enoch and Elijah?

verse 7
"And when they shall have finished their testimony..."
So- Enoch and Elijah will be back to finish their testimony...as they have yet to die.

...the beast, that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit...shall make war against them...kill them."
These two will rise from the dead, but - not till the great earthquake hour that the angel is speaking of.

The great earthquake hour is the third woe - thus, the 7th trumpet.

vinsight4u8
Mar 31st 2008, 11:29 PM
I'm glad you are seeing this as to the two witnesses - look too at this?

Rev. 11 - the angel telling John about the 2nd woe...and the third woe is to come quickly.
What is seen in the temple of God in heaven when it opens in verse 19?

just the ark

and the two witnesses were still waiting for the get up
from the grave hour of the great earthquake
In Rev. 7 - which is an overview and clarification of the tribulation time...by verse 15 - what is then seen in the temple?

men

And what happened in the 6th seal - the rest of the 7th trumpet gets seen by John?
the great earthquake (third woe) hour

vinsight4u8
Mar 31st 2008, 11:49 PM
All 5th seal trib martyrs must sleep till all come in. Paul told us that Jesus will bring the sleeping saints with Him at His return.

1 Thessalonians 4-5
the dead in Christ shall rise first


in the clouds

the day of the LORD
for when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them...

as in - the Peace and safety sending gifts to each other crowd
their party - gets halted by the Day of the LORD


Job wrote that man riseth not till the heavens [be] no more. Job knew that one day, he would get his change.
Job 14:12,14 - speaks of this situation

till the heavens [be] no more

6th seal - heaven departed
the great earthquake get up hour

Malachi 3:2
'But who may abide the day of his coming, and who shall stand when he appeareth?..."

6th seal
6:17
"...who shall be able to stand?"

vinsight4u8
Apr 1st 2008, 12:18 AM
What if the days are shortened not in length, but by how many hours each one becomes with the 4th trumpet?

the sun was smitten/third part
moon too/third part

actually - the moon reflects the light from the sun

the day shone not for a third part of it
and the night likewise


As for Rev. 7 - 7th seal
time of silence

Read Isaiah 18:3-5
as to when God will take His rest after the harvest

Read Isaiah 65:6
as to God won't keep silence until Israel is punished in measure

Isaiah 62:1-4
as to once God takes His rest, Jerusalem can't be made desolate ever again


So now how can the trumpets come out of the 7th seal?
They can't, only the trumpet story angels can.

vinsight4u8
Apr 1st 2008, 12:22 AM
Rev. 7th seal

John writes that he sees the angels that

were

given trumpets

Not just then, given trumpets.


Rev. 7 ends with showing us that men are in the temple of of God in heaven.
/Now consider some stuff...
Rev. 15 ends by speaking of how the angel plagues must end before men can enter the temple in heaven.

Rev. 8:4 takes us to the time of incense in the temple...
the bible has that incense time is when -the people pray outside the temple
Rev. 8 is going back in time again to give more clarity.

covenant mom
Apr 1st 2008, 12:48 AM
All 5th seal trib martyrs must sleep till all come in. Paul told us that Jesus will bring the sleeping saints with Him at His return.

1 Thessalonians 4-5
the dead in Christ shall rise first


in the clouds

the day of the LORD
for when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them...

as in - the Peace and safety sending gifts to each other crowd
their party - gets halted by the Day of the LORD


Job wrote that man riseth not till the heavens [be] no more. Job knew that one day, he would get his change.
Job 14:12,14 - speaks of this situation

till the heavens [be] no more

6th seal - heaven departed
the great earthquake get up hour

Malachi 3:2
'But who may abide the day of his coming, and who shall stand when he appeareth?..."

6th seal
6:17
"...who shall be able to stand?"

No, I don't agree w/ "soul sleep" but that's another argument for another thread. I don't want to derail this one. The martyr's are not sleeping...they're waiting.
Refrences to soul sleep are found in the OT, but.....that's for another thread.

vinsight4u8
Apr 1st 2008, 01:09 AM
This is totally said in a sweet/loving spirit....

I have trouble understand your points sometimes....maybe I'm a little dense? Okay, alot dense. :blush:

Can you make your thoughts more clear? You remind me of another poster I know named Frank (whom I love btw) that always uses questions to answer questions. I told him the same thing....:help: I need things bluntly spelled out for me to be able to process what is being said. The way you worded this leaves me guessing what your point is.

Maybe it's just me & if so carry on!!!! :hug:

Well, I erased some of what I had written as the OP didn't seem to think it fit the thread topic.

Do you see that Rev. 11 is not where the two witnesses actually rise from the dead?

Rev. 11:12
"They heard a great voice from heaven..."
verse 13
"And the same hour was there a great earthquake..."
>>>>
/Here the angel is only foretelling the future - John did not see the two witnesses get slain, nor did he see them rise.

verse 1
"...the angel...saying...."
verse 12
"And they heard a great voice from heaven..."
verse 13
"And the same hour was there a great earthquake..."

>>>But this hour has not yet come. It won't till sometime during the 7th trumpet.

The 7th trumpet begins in Rev. 11:15 - but John has yet to tell us about the resurrection of the just.
Reward time is foretold by the 24 fallen down elders
but John did not see reward time happen yet.

How come?
Keep that thought - that John was about to see the rapture /reward hour - and then try to stick Rev. 12 right on with this picture.
It won't work.
Next up should be the description of the rapture of the church.

But instead, we soon get - the story of how Israel began and then - there is the Manchild caught up - and the dragon - with heads (crowned) and ten horns (not yet crowned).

So what happened to the rest of the 7th trumpet time?
John saw the 24 elders fall down.
Link that up with the end of Rev. 4.

The 24 elders sit and sit and stay seated till the 7th trumpet sounds, so John was at the time of the start of the 7th trumpet when he saw the sealed book.
That book must now get opened some before John will write to us again as to the 7th trumpet earthquake hour when the two witnesses will rise from the dead.

Rev. 4 - has the four beasts yaking and yaking all the time, till a certain thing happens
they give thanks
only then will the 24 elders fall down and never again regain their seats at the throne

During this time of the four beasts yaking and yaking and never hushing up is when John heard the first trumpet, the second and so on till the start of the 7th trumpet.
Rev. 5
John sees the sealed up book....but he was hanging on yet to see the end of the 7th trumpet. He would now be shown that the 7th trumpet time slides nicely into the 6th seal earthquake hour.

vinsight4u8
Apr 1st 2008, 01:31 AM
What is it about verse 34 that you are referring to? http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/confused.gif

KJV
Verse 34 has "sealed"
Verse 29 has "latter end"
Verse 21 has "I will provoke you to anger with a foolish nation"

The seals are a nation against Israel.
This nation was sealed up, till the endtimes.

Rev. 6
the nation is unsealed
/Iraq

Saved7
Apr 1st 2008, 02:51 AM
Uuuuh, I'm a pre-wrather, and i only see ONE rapture, the resurrection is first announced in chapter 11, then the actual occurance of the rapture takes place in chapter 18, verse 4 I believe.

Literalist-Luke
Apr 1st 2008, 04:23 AM
KJV
Verse 34 has "sealed"
Verse 29 has "latter end"
Verse 21 has "I will provoke you to anger with a foolish nation"

The seals are a nation against Israel.
This nation was sealed up, till the endtimes.

Rev. 6
the nation is unsealed
/IraqThanks, I appreciate it. :)

Literalist-Luke
Apr 1st 2008, 04:24 AM
Uuuuh, I'm a pre-wrather, and i only see ONE rapture, the resurrection is first announced in chapter 11, then the actual occurance of the rapture takes place in chapter 18, verse 4 I believe.OK, so what do you say about the points that have been made in this thread?

Truthinlove
Apr 1st 2008, 05:05 PM
Uuuuh, I'm a pre-wrather, and i only see ONE rapture, the resurrection is first announced in chapter 11, then the actual occurance of the rapture takes place in chapter 18, verse 4 I believe.


Are you sure ch. 18:4 for the rapture?? That is speaking of Babylon. :confused
Any prewrather I have heard from places the rapture at the 6th seal, which they and I see during the 2nd half of the 70th week.

Truthinlove
Apr 1st 2008, 05:06 PM
I wish I could reply to some of your posts, but I have no time lately to go through all the long posts! I do hope to sometime this week. ;)

covenant mom
Apr 1st 2008, 06:42 PM
I wish I could reply to some of your posts, but I have no time lately to go through all the long posts! I do hope to sometime this week. ;)

We understand, Az princess! :hug:

Literalist-Luke
Apr 1st 2008, 06:42 PM
I wish I could reply to some of your posts, but I have no time lately to go through all the long posts! I do hope to sometime this week. ;)I assume you're talking to me and C-mom? If that's true, then no problem, we'll be around. :D

David Taylor
Apr 1st 2008, 09:58 PM
I see several things that cause problems with a post-trib rapture and have not had them cleared up for me.


When a Pre-wrather shows evidence of a 6th seal rapture, most Post-tribbers agree. They usually believe in a 6th seal rapture as well as a 7th trumpet rapture. But, in order to do this, they must take the chronology of the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments and overlap or telescope them so that the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet occur at the same time. This overlapping of judgments can’t be understood from a normal reading of the text. It must be constructed that way to support the desired outcome.


So you believe Genesis chapter 1 and Genesis chapter 2 are chronological and not two similar stories of the same creation event?

Why is it natural to read Genesis 1 and 2 and deduct that they are two chapters describing the same event; but when reading the Seal and Trumpet passages, they must be chronological?

Seems like taking the natural approach should be determined by context, not just written-order.

If I were a policeman, and I was handling a traffic accident, and wrote down in my journal the testimonies of the event from 3 different people; and someone later read my journal....would the natural reading of the text be to conclude I am describing 3 separate and distinct accidents; solely because they are written one after the other?

Jesus comes in the 6th Seal; Jesus comes in the 7th Trumpet, Jesus comes in the 7th Bowl.....is it naturally one future coming; or 3 separate and distinct future comings?






The view that the seals are an overview of the 70th week and that the trumpets and bowls run concurrently with them creates several big problems.

Alot of Posttrib advocates would say that the 70th week has nothing to do with Revelation; and that it was fulfilled at the cross by Christ; at the end of the 70th week period. So there is no problem created for posties who don't have an unnatural 2000+ long 70-weeks period.




1) This overlapping would cause the seals to be a part of the DOTL (God’s wrath). Yet the DOTL begins AFTER the 6th seal (see Joel 2:31). How can Joel 2:31 be true according to the post-trib view? How can they have the DOTL (trumpets and bowls) occurring simultaneously with the seals if the 6th seal precedes the DOTL???

"The Day of the Lord" is when Jesus returns from Heaven. Seal 6, Trump7, and Bowl 7. (Rev 14 and 19 and 20 also describe it).







Another problem in making the seals the DOTL is that during the DOTL the LORD ALONE WILL BE EXALTED. Isaiah 2:11
Yet, we know that at the midpoint of the 70th week, during the seals, the antichrist will EXALT himself in the temple and claim to be God. Therefore the seals can’t be part of the DOTL!


Alot of posties would say the midpoint of the 70th week was somewhere circa the 3rd Decade A.D.

I personally, would say the DOTL doesn't occur until the end of each seal, trumpet, and bowl.....Seals 1-5, Trumps 1-6, and Bowls 1-6 occur before the DOTL.
But I don't tend to stretch out the DOTL as Prewrathers do; I see it as one day; when Jesus returns from Heaven. My shortcoming, I'm sure.





After the 6th seal is opened, Rev. 7:3 states NO harm to the earth, sea or trees may be done until the sealing of the 144,000. How can the trumpet judgments, which clearly destroy the earth, sea, and trees, have already been occurring, according to the overlap view if the 6th seal MUST PRECEDE the harming of the earth, sea and trees??

These are fatal flaws to the post-trib position.

Perhaps to the post-trib position in the unique way you are framing it and building it in your own eyes....none of them effect my post-trib view; but again, I'm sure I am in error, and you are right.







The text indicates consecutive order of judgments with the language used….then, until and after. The fact that the judgments are numbered 1-7 supports consecutive order as well.

Within each set of 7, the text does naturally preclude a 1-7 expectation.

However,
The text does not naturally preculde a 1-21 expectation, as you are wanting to require.





Here are a few more arguments used to support the post-trib view….


1) Christ will raise up those who believe in Him on the last day. John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54



Post-tribbers infer that this “last day” must be the last day of the 70th week.


Again, you are putting words into the mouths of Posties.
I would venture to guess that most Posties, at least the non-Premillennial Posties, would say that 'the last day' is really the last day....the day Christ returns; the Day of the Lord; when the wicked are cast into the fire; and the believers are united with Christ.

The last day, becomes the last day of human mortal history....with the eternal state to follow.

So no problem here, (at least for non-Premillennial Posties).





I disagree. I believe the “last day” is the last day of the end of the age. The Great Commission of making disciples and teaching all that Jesus commanded is until the end of the age. Matt. 28:18-20
The question the disciples asked Jesus during the Olivet Discourse was “tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age.” Matt. 24:3b The end of the age (last day) will be after the cosmic signs of the 6th seal, when the Lord returns and raptures the believers.

As long as you don't have any additional days following "the last day", where sinful mortals continue to roam the earth; I think I could agree with what you write above. If you have additional days after "the last day" however, we would be in disagreement.





2) The resurrection/rapture occurs at the last trumpet. 1 Cor. 15:52


Post-tribbers infer that the “last trumpet” spoken of here must be the 7th trumpet of Revelation.


I agree also....the resurrection occurs at the Lord's return on the Last Day.

Any trumpets that are announcing it, would have blown and be completed by the Last Day.





3) The mystery of God is finished at the seventh trump. Rev. 10:7
Post-tribbers believe that the mystery of God is the church. Since they believe the 7th trumpet of Rev. is the last trumpet of the rapture, they believe this is when the rapture will happen and the mystery of the church will be finished.


You assume the mystery is the church. I as a Postie don't. That sounds more like the way Pretribbies interpret the mystery.

I Corinthians 15, when referring to 'the mystery', is referring to the mystery of the resurrection of the body.

And that occurs, on the Last Day; according to Jesus.
The notion that it occurs at the 7th Trumpet at 'the time of the dead, when they are judged and rewarded', just makes it more clear to me that the 7th Trumpet, as all divine trumpets annoucing Christ's return, occur on the last day.

cwb
Apr 2nd 2008, 02:07 AM
Uuuuh, I'm a pre-wrather, and i only see ONE rapture, the resurrection is first announced in chapter 11, then the actual occurance of the rapture takes place in chapter 18, verse 4 I believe.

So you don't believe the rapture is before the vials full of the wrath of God?

Rev 5:4
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

I just assumed pre-wrathers would have the rapture occuring before the vials. Any other pre-wrather can also correct me on that if I am wrong in assumming that.

cwb
Apr 2nd 2008, 02:12 AM
Hi TruthinLove, Covenant Mom and Literalist-Luke,

I have discussed end-times with you in another forum as well. My username over there was "Gatorw". Just thought I would let you know that. Glad to see you all posting over here.

Literalist-Luke
Apr 2nd 2008, 03:04 AM
Hi TruthinLove, Covenant Mom and Literalist-Luke,

I have discussed end-times with you in another forum as well. My username over there was "Gatorw". Just thought I would let you know that. Glad to see you all posting over here.Hey, it's great to see you here! :pp

Truthinlove
Apr 2nd 2008, 01:08 PM
Hi TruthinLove, Covenant Mom and Literalist-Luke,

I have discussed end-times with you in another forum as well. My username over there was "Gatorw". Just thought I would let you know that. Glad to see you all posting over here.


Hi! I amazed at how many PF people are here...haha

Firstfruits
Apr 2nd 2008, 01:42 PM
I see several things that cause problems with a post-trib rapture and have not had them cleared up for me.


When a Pre-wrather shows evidence of a 6th seal rapture, most Post-tribbers agree. They usually believe in a 6th seal rapture as well as a 7th trumpet rapture. But, in order to do this, they must take the chronology of the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments and overlap or telescope them so that the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet occur at the same time. This overlapping of judgments can’t be understood from a normal reading of the text. It must be constructed that way to support the desired outcome.

The view that the seals are an overview of the 70th week and that the trumpets and bowls run concurrently with them creates several big problems.

1) This overlapping would cause the seals to be a part of the DOTL (God’s wrath). Yet the DOTL begins AFTER the 6th seal (see Joel 2:31). How can Joel 2:31 be true according to the post-trib view? How can they have the DOTL (trumpets and bowls) occurring simultaneously with the seals if the 6th seal precedes the DOTL???

Another problem in making the seals the DOTL is that during the DOTL the LORD ALONE WILL BE EXALTED. Isaiah 2:11
Yet, we know that at the midpoint of the 70th week, during the seals, the antichrist will EXALT himself in the temple and claim to be God. Therefore the seals can’t be part of the DOTL!

After the 6th seal is opened, Rev. 7:3 states NO harm to the earth, sea or trees may be done until the sealing of the 144,000. How can the trumpet judgments, which clearly destroy the earth, sea, and trees, have already been occurring, according to the overlap view if the 6th seal MUST PRECEDE the harming of the earth, sea and trees??

These are fatal flaws to the post-trib position.

The text indicates consecutive order of judgments with the language used….then, until and after. The fact that the judgments are numbered 1-7 supports consecutive order as well.

Here are a few more arguments used to support the post-trib view….


1) Christ will raise up those who believe in Him on the last day. John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54



Post-tribbers infer that this “last day” must be the last day of the 70th week.

I disagree. I believe the “last day” is the last day of the end of the age. The Great Commission of making disciples and teaching all that Jesus commanded is until the end of the age. Matt. 28:18-20
The question the disciples asked Jesus during the Olivet Discourse was “tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age.” Matt. 24:3b The end of the age (last day) will be after the cosmic signs of the 6th seal, when the Lord returns and raptures the believers.

2) The resurrection/rapture occurs at the last trumpet. 1 Cor. 15:52


Post-tribbers infer that the “last trumpet” spoken of here must be the 7th trumpet of Revelation.

I do not agree. 1st Cor. was written approx. 40 years before Revelation. Paul had no knowledge of the trumpet judgments of Revelation.
More likely, is that he was using an analogy that his readers would understand. N.T. authors often used cultural analogies to make their points clear.
The analogy would be that the last trumpet when we are raptured would be like the call to assembly which was used in Roman games or in a military context. There was usually a preliminary trumpet or two blown and the last one would be the call to assembly. This would definitely make sense in reference to the rapture in which all believers will be called and gathered together (assembled) with the trumpet of God!
Also, the last trumpet spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:52 is called the trumpet of God in 1 Thess. 4:16 and it is Christ himself who blows the trumpet at the rapture in 1 Thess. as well as in Matt. 24:32. This is not the same as the 7th trumpet because angels blow the trumpets in Rev., not Christ.

3) The mystery of God is finished at the seventh trump. Rev. 10:7
Post-tribbers believe that the mystery of God is the church. Since they believe the 7th trumpet of Rev. is the last trumpet of the rapture, they believe this is when the rapture will happen and the mystery of the church will be finished.


The church was a mystery, but Paul makes it clear that once the church was formed, the mystery was revealed. Ephesians 3:5-6
The mystery of God to be finished at the 7th trumpet can’t be the church.



I do not recall you replying to the following, could you please answer accordingly as I would like to know if both events are as Jesus said at the last day, and if not why?

According to Jesus those that believe in him and those that do not believe in him will be raised and judged at the last day;

Jn 6:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 12:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Rev 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

What events happen after judgment?

John146
Apr 2nd 2008, 01:54 PM
I wish I could reply to some of your posts, but I have no time lately to go through all the long posts! I do hope to sometime this week. ;)

I think you should reply to the post that Firstfruits made above this one. Jesus clearly taught that believers would be resurrected on the last day and unbelievers will be judged on the last day. It's not a stretch then to say that both believers and unbeliever will be resurrected and judged on the last day. Jesus clearly taught that all people, saved and lost, will be resurrected and judged at the same time. Besides John 6:40 and John 12:48, which Firstfruits quoted, we have these passages:

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. - John 5:28-29

24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. -
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Matthew 13:24-30,36-43

47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 13:47-50

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. - Matt 25:31-34,41,46

Jesus taught that an hour or time was coming when ALL who are in the graves will come forth (come alive, be resurrected). He taught that believers and unbelievers would be on the earth together right up until the end of the age, which is when He returns. He taught that only when the net is full will it be drawn to shore. He was speaking of the end of the age and that only at the very end of the age is when all people will be resurrected and judged. Then we can see that when He comes in His glory, all people from all nations will be gathered before Him and they will be separated based on whether they are saved (sheep) or lost (goats). Then each person will receive their reward or their punishment.

The seventh trumpet is clearly "the time of the dead, that they should be judged", the time when God "shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great", and the time when God "shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth". Since scripture teaches that all people are resurrected and judged at the same time, there is no reason not to think that the last trumpet of 1 Cor 15:52 is not the same as the seventh trumpet of Rev 10:7 and Rev 11:15-18. The same Holy Spirit who inspired Paul to write 1 Cor 15:52 is the One who inspired John to write Revelation 11:15-18. Whether Paul knew that the last trumpet was the seventh trumpet doesn't matter. We know that there are no trumpets after the seventh one, otherwise they would have been mentioned in the book of Revelation. The last trumpet is called the last trumpet for a reason. There will be no other trumpets blown after that one.

Eric

Saved7
Apr 2nd 2008, 06:49 PM
Are you sure ch. 18:4 for the rapture?? That is speaking of Babylon. :confused
Any prewrather I have heard from places the rapture at the 6th seal, which they and I see during the 2nd half of the 70th week.

What I perceive as "pre-wrath" and what others perceive as pre-wrath is quite different apparently...in fact, I thought I invented the the pre wrath..:lol:
I'll explain my views in a bit.
right now I have ice cream to eat:D

yoSAMite
Apr 2nd 2008, 07:22 PM
As I pre-tribber I have nada to add here, but I do have a couple of questions.


truthinlove
More importantly, the great tribulation will be cut short for the sake of the elect. Matt. 24:21-22 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. The persecution of the saints by antichrist will be cut short by the cosmic signs, the Coming of the Lord and the rapture at the 6th seal, sometime during the 2nd half of the week.
I have heard this before and am confused as I read Matt 24:21-22 to say that "had not those day be cut short" to mean that instead of letting those days extend further than say the 3 1/2 years of the great trib, no one would survive. To interpret it as they will be cut short to sort of change the reading. "Had" seems to indicate it as a past event (as in preordained past but still a determined amount of time) and "will be" seems to indicate a cutting short of a specific prophesized time.


Secondly though partially discussed,

Originally Posted by Literalist-Luke - Paul knew nothing of Revelation.Though Paul knew nothing of the book of the book of Revelation as we know, or try to know it, it seems he did teach the Thessalonians something of end times and the tribulation or their knowledge of the time of Jacobs Trouble.

Saved7
Apr 2nd 2008, 07:24 PM
Ok...in my mind the wrath of God is not poured out at the 6th seal, but later in the 7th seal. Read Chapter 18, it says that God is now about to pour out His wrath in full measure. He's about to destroy Babylon, which is both a city and a world system. That world system is what we will be living in the middle of if we are here during the GT. I believe that we will be here for the GT, but rescued from the destruction that will befall the world beginning with the city of the world system babylon.

The bible is quite clear that the resurrection MUST take place BEFORE the rapture, therefore one must find the resurrection before finding the rapture.

Here in Chapter 11 when the 2 witnesses are resurrected, you will see that there is a celebration and announcement in heaven showing that there is about to be a resurrection of the dead in Christ.

Please note that it says clearly here that His wrath is come, and the time of the dead.

Rev 11:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=11&verse=18&version=kjv#18)And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Later in chapter 14 we see the very thing occurring that Jesus spoke of in a parable of the wheat and tares.
And bare in mind that what we see occuring in Rev isn't exactly in order, but some things are occurring at the same time as other things, however, it takes time and space to explain it all with words, the things that John is being shown. ;)

You're gonna want to read all of Chapter 14 for this, because there is so much here to read and note.

Rev 14:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=14&verse=15&version=kjv#15)And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.



But notice in Verse 13 of this chapter that speaks of how those who "die in the Lord" from THIS point forward are blessed because their works do follow them and they rest from their labor. Well, don't the works of those who died over the last 2000 years count??? WEll, the difference here is this, there can only be a brief second between the resurrection of the dead and the rapture, maybe even just a millisecond. Because people around the world never stop dying, there is never a moment in time that someone isn't dying, how much more so during this particular time in life? So those who are dying for their faith at this moment, are being changed as they die. At least that's what I gather from verse 13.

Now we have the rapture over in chapter 18...

Rev 18:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=18&verse=4&version=kjv#4)And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

The believers in Christ are HIS PEOPLE, no one who rejects Christ are considered His people, He rescues us from His wrath.


I know that at this point it would seem that this can't be us, but what does the bible say Jesus will call us with, the voice of an arch angel, and at the last trumpet.

The last trumpet occured back in chapter 11, verse 15....this is the last trumpet...there are no secret trumpets, this is the last one mentioned, the 7th out of 7.

Rev 11:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=11&verse=15&version=kjv#15)¶And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 18:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=18&verse=1&version=kjv#1)¶And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

Rev 18:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=18&verse=2&version=kjv#2)And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.



Well that is my perspective so have at it if you wish.:P:D

covenant mom
Apr 3rd 2008, 12:41 AM
Hi TruthinLove, Covenant Mom and Literalist-Luke,

I have discussed end-times with you in another forum as well. My username over there was "Gatorw". Just thought I would let you know that. Glad to see you all posting over here.


Good to see you!!! :hug:

covenant mom
Apr 3rd 2008, 12:48 AM
Ok...in my mind the wrath of God is not poured out at the 6th seal, but later in the 7th seal. Read Chapter 18, it says that God is now about to pour out His wrath in full measure. He's about to destroy Babylon, which is both a city and a world system. That world system is what we will be living in the middle of if we are here during the GT. I believe that we will be here for the GT, but rescued from the destruction that will befall the world beginning with the city of the world system babylon.

The bible is quite clear that the resurrection MUST take place BEFORE the rapture, therefore one must find the resurrection before finding the rapture.

Here in Chapter 11 when the 2 witnesses are resurrected, you will see that there is a celebration and announcement in heaven showing that there is about to be a resurrection of the dead in Christ.

Please note that it says clearly here that His wrath is come, and the time of the dead.

Rev 11:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=11&verse=18&version=kjv#18)And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Later in chapter 14 we see the very thing occurring that Jesus spoke of in a parable of the wheat and tares.
And bare in mind that what we see occuring in Rev isn't exactly in order, but some things are occurring at the same time as other things, however, it takes time and space to explain it all with words, the things that John is being shown. ;)

You're gonna want to read all of Chapter 14 for this, because there is so much here to read and note.

Rev 14:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=14&verse=15&version=kjv#15)And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.



But notice in Verse 13 of this chapter that speaks of how those who "die in the Lord" from THIS point forward are blessed because their works do follow them and they rest from their labor. Well, don't the works of those who died over the last 2000 years count??? WEll, the difference here is this, there can only be a brief second between the resurrection of the dead and the rapture, maybe even just a millisecond. Because people around the world never stop dying, there is never a moment in time that someone isn't dying, how much more so during this particular time in life? So those who are dying for their faith at this moment, are being changed as they die. At least that's what I gather from verse 13.

Now we have the rapture over in chapter 18...

Rev 18:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=18&verse=4&version=kjv#4)And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

The believers in Christ are HIS PEOPLE, no one who rejects Christ are considered His people, He rescues us from His wrath.


I know that at this point it would seem that this can't be us, but what does the bible say Jesus will call us with, the voice of an arch angel, and at the last trumpet.

The last trumpet occured back in chapter 11, verse 15....this is the last trumpet...there are no secret trumpets, this is the last one mentioned, the 7th out of 7.

Rev 11:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=11&verse=15&version=kjv#15)¶And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 18:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=18&verse=1&version=kjv#1)¶And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

Rev 18:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=18&verse=2&version=kjv#2)And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.



Well that is my perspective so have at it if you wish.:P:D

This sounds like posttrib to me :lol

covenant mom
Apr 3rd 2008, 12:53 AM
I think you should reply to the post that Firstfruits made above this one. Jesus clearly taught that believers would be resurrected on the last day and unbelievers will be judged on the last day. It's not a stretch then to say that both believers and unbeliever will be resurrected and judged on the last day. Jesus clearly taught that all people, saved and lost, will be resurrected and judged at the same time. Besides John 6:40 and John 12:48, which Firstfruits quoted, we have these passages:

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. - John 5:28-29

24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. -
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Matthew 13:24-30,36-43

47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 13:47-50

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. - Matt 25:31-34,41,46

Jesus taught that an hour or time was coming when ALL who are in the graves will come forth (come alive, be resurrected). He taught that believers and unbelievers would be on the earth together right up until the end of the age, which is when He returns. He taught that only when the net is full will it be drawn to shore. He was speaking of the end of the age and that only at the very end of the age is when all people will be resurrected and judged. Then we can see that when He comes in His glory, all people from all nations will be gathered before Him and they will be separated based on whether they are saved (sheep) or lost (goats). Then each person will receive their reward or their punishment.

The seventh trumpet is clearly "the time of the dead, that they should be judged", the time when God "shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great", and the time when God "shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth". Since scripture teaches that all people are resurrected and judged at the same time, there is no reason not to think that the last trumpet of 1 Cor 15:52 is not the same as the seventh trumpet of Rev 10:7 and Rev 11:15-18. The same Holy Spirit who inspired Paul to write 1 Cor 15:52 is the One who inspired John to write Revelation 11:15-18. Whether Paul knew that the last trumpet was the seventh trumpet doesn't matter. We know that there are no trumpets after the seventh one, otherwise they would have been mentioned in the book of Revelation. The last trumpet is called the last trumpet for a reason. There will be no other trumpets blown after that one.

Eric

You & Firstfruits have introduced some compelling verses to support post trib. I am post trib but hadn't even considered this proof. Thanks for adding the the arsenal of verses I can use to show why I believe what I believe.

Truthinlove
Apr 4th 2008, 01:27 AM
Truthinlove wrote: I believe the “last day” is the last day of the end of the age. The Great Commission of making disciples and teaching all that Jesus commanded is until the end of the age. Matt. 28:18-20
The question the disciples asked Jesus during the Olivet Discourse was “tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age.” Matt. 24:3b The end of the age (last day) will be after the cosmic signs of the 6th seal, when the Lord returns and raptures the believers.
Astrongerthanhe wrote: Why the cosmic signs of the sixth seal? Why not any of the other cosmic signs found in later judgments?
Because, the answer is in the passage above.
The disciples asked Jesus the question of what will signal the end of the age during the Olivet Discouse, and Christ answered the question during the Olivet Discourse. The end of the age is the cosmic signs, which happen to be the same as the ones of the 6th seal.
Christ mentions no other judgments in his speech.


Astrongerthanhe wrote:
The trumpet mentioned in 1 Thess. 4 is the same as John's seventh trumpet. However, in 1 Cor. 15 the trumpet Paul speaks of is referring to the Feast of Trumpets that Jesus will fulfillSo, you don't think the 1 Cor. 15 passage is speaking of the rapture as 1 Thess. 4 is?
It could be referring to the feast of trumpets. I didn't mention that in my OP, but I see it as a possibility for sure.


And Matt. 24's trumpet is actually *not* about the rapture, but is a reference to Isa. 27:12-13, and the regathering of the Israelites.I don't think so.
The similarities between Isaiah and Matt are few. And there are many differences.
The similarities between Matt and the rapture in 1 Thess. is very convincing that is the rapture portrayed in Matt. 24.
Christ Coming on the clouds - Matt and 1 Thess
Angels present - Matt and 1 Thess
Trumpet call - Matt and 1 Thess
Gathering of the elect - Matt and 1 Thess

Truthinlove
Apr 4th 2008, 01:57 AM
CM wrote: Revelations is not written in very sequentialy anyways. It jumps around a little & recaps in places. It does have some flashbacks, but otherwise it is in order. I posted this a while ago on PF.

The seals, trumpets and bowls are chronological, the book of Rev. is chronological too, but with ch. breaks to give more detail of events that will happen during the time period he already described.

Ch. 1 - Introduction to Revelation
Ch.'s 2 & 3 - Warnings to the churches
Ch.'s 4 & 5 - Into to the seals
Ch. 6 - The seals
Ch. 7 - Intro to the trumpets
Ch.'s 8 & 9 - Description of the trumpet judgments
Ch. 10 - Conclusion to seals & trumpets
Ch.'s 11, 12, 13, 14 - (Break in the chronological events to give more detailed info) Description of events that occur during the seals & trumpets
Ch. 15 - Intro to the bowl judgments
Ch. 16 - Bowl judgments
Ch.'s 17 & 18 - (Break in the chronological events to give additional info)
Description of the religious and political Babylon
Ch. 19 - Armageddon
Ch. 20 - Millennium
Ch. 21 - New heavens & earth, New Jerusalem described
Ch. 22 – Epilogue



CM wrote:
But more than that I cannot see how the seals could NOT be covering the entire trib.I do! Because of the problems I posted in the OP when trying to make the trumpets and or bowls overlap the seals.


Truthinlove wrote:
1) This overlapping would cause the seals to be a part of the DOTL (God’s wrath). Yet the DOTL begins AFTER the 6th seal (see Joel 2:31). How can Joel 2:31 be true according to the post-trib view? How can they have the DOTL (trumpets and bowls) occurring simultaneously with the seals if the 6th seal precedes the DOTL???

CM wrote: b/c none of the trumpets are the DOTL...I don't believe they are describing the DOTL. How are the trumpets not the DOTL?? Some desciptions of the DOTL include fire, the earth being burned up and darkness. The trumpets contain all those elements.
Not to mention, the trumpets come after the 6th seal which announces the DOTL is about to begin.
And, the wrath of God is finished in the bowls. So, it must have begun with the trumpets.


Truthinlove wrote: After the 6th seal is opened, Rev. 7:3 states NO harm to the earth, sea or trees may be done until the sealing of the 144,000. How can the trumpet judgments, which clearly destroy the earth, sea, and trees, have already been occurring, according to the overlap view if the 6th seal MUST PRECEDE the harming of the earth, sea and trees??

CM wrote: Right, no harm will befall the 144k until they are sealed which I believe will happen when they (the 144k = remnant) see Christ at His coming in the 6th Seal & they believe thus receive the holy spirit (sealing). The trumpet judgments do not destroy the earth everywhere...only portions. Conversly the DOTL will be a different story. If the trumpet judgments are within the scope from seal #1 - seal # 6 then there isn't an issue.
No, the subject that is told not to be harmed is the earth, sea and trees, not the 144,000.

It doesn't matter that the trumpets don't destroy ALL of the earth, tree and seas. The point is they DO destroy 1/3 of them...therefore HARM has been done to them.
There is an issue with putting the trumpets beginning before seal 6 and that is that the earth, sea and trees are harmed through trumpets 1-3, but the angel is saying AT the 6th seal to not harm them yet.


CM wrote: I could just as easily argue that if they were supposed to be in consecutive order...why 3 sets of 7 instead of one set of 21? Because they are different judgments for different purposes.

Truthinlove
Apr 4th 2008, 02:18 AM
Luke I am so :confused with your view!


The Day of the Lord is between the Sixth and Seventh Seals.

The trumpets and bowls do not constitute the Day of the Lord. That is a separate event that takes place after all the trumpets and bowls are finished.

The Sixth Seal is opened at the same time the Seventh Trumpet is blown and the same time the Seventh Bowl is poured out.

I do understand that you see the 7th trumpet at the end of the 70th week. So do I

But, what I need to understand is when you see the trumpets happening and when you see the bowls happening.
If you see the 7th bowl at the end of the 70th week at the same time as the 6th seal, when are the other 6 trumpet and bowl judgments iyo?

IPet2_9
Apr 4th 2008, 03:43 AM
Just as a quick disclaimer, although I do consider myself a post-tribber, I do not believe it is 7 years. I guess it depends on whether the 7 years or the 3 1/2 years is integral to the pre-trib/post-trib position. If it is, then I agree--there are problems with the post-trib position and pre-trib both.

Literalist-Luke
Apr 4th 2008, 04:40 AM
Luke I am so :confused with your view!

I do understand that you see the 7th trumpet at the end of the 70th week. So do I

But, what I need to understand is when you see the trumpets happening and when you see the bowls happening.
If you see the 7th bowl at the end of the 70th week at the same time as the 6th seal, when are the other 6 trumpet and bowl judgments iyo?Have you looked at this post? It might clear some things up. Let me know if it doesn't and we'll try sumpin' else. :yes:

Truthinlove
Apr 5th 2008, 08:26 AM
LLuke wrote: the Antichrist’s efforts will be cut short right at the 2,520th day of the 70th Week/Tribulation.Huh?? I see you are counting the whole 7 years here, I'll get to that in a minute. But, first even if it was the whole 7 years, you don't have anything being cut short.
The Great Tribulation spoken of by Christ in the OD begins at the midpoint of the 70th week! (Matt. 24:15).......then it says "for THEN there will be great tribulation...." The GT is the persecution of the AC against the saints and it begins at the midpoint, this time of persecution will be cut short for the sake of the elect by the signs announcing the DOTL is about to begin and by the rapture of the saints.


The Gospel of Luke’s description of the birth of Jesus comes after Mark’s description of the crucifixion, but that doesn’t mean that Jesus was born after the crucifixion. They’re just not given chronologically. Whoa, hold on there.

You are talking about 2 different books....from 2 different authors.

Now.....if you were making that point from one book.....for example IF Luke spoke of Jesus' crucifixion and then His birth, you would have a point of it not being chronological. But, you don't because we are talking about 2 different books.

Truthinlove
Apr 5th 2008, 08:48 AM
Since scripture teaches that all people are resurrected and judged at the same time

I don't think so.

The judgment at the 7th trumpet at the end of the 70th week is the judgment of the righteous dead, for us to receive our rewards.

The judgment of the wicked is not at this time, it is at the end of the millennium.

If you see the judgment of the righteous and the wicked at the same time then you see the 7th trumpet at the end of the millenium.

Truthinlove
Apr 5th 2008, 08:55 AM
I have heard this before and am confused as I read Matt 24:21-22 to say that "had not those day be cut short" to mean that instead of letting those days extend further than say the 3 1/2 years of the great trib, no one would survive. To interpret it as they will be cut short to sort of change the reading. "Had" seems to indicate it as a past event (as in preordained past but still a determined amount of time) and "will be" seems to indicate a cutting short of a specific prophesized time.

You are missing part of the verse. I am not interpretating it as will be cut short, that is what the verse itself says.

KJV "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Matt. 24:22

NAS "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short." Matt. 24:22

Hope that helps ;)

Saved7
Apr 6th 2008, 01:23 AM
This sounds like posttrib to me :lol

Yah, I know it sounds like post trib, and it really is, but I call it "pre-wrath" for the purpose of clarifying that we will not endure God's wrath, but we will endure satans wrath. However, if I may split a hair or two, the term post trib, suggest that the rapture does not occur until AFTER all of the GT is over. Well, it isn't over until God pours out His wrath and babylon is destroyed once and for all....we are saved out of this last bit, so to me it is "pre-wrath" or even pre-destruction if you will. ;)