PDA

View Full Version : Hi. I Have A Bible-Based Question I am struggling with! Help Is Needed!



loveroftruth
Apr 1st 2008, 07:24 PM
Hello!
I am new to these boards but a lot of people here seemed very Bible-based and Bible smart so I thought I might be able to get some help here from some people. I consider this a tough question to my faith, which it is tearing my husband and me apart. My husband came across some guys a few months ago(in a seemingly miraculous way), they are from the International Church Of Christ. They started doing Bible studies with him and shared there theology w/ him. My husband continued to go to their bible studies, bible meetings and church services until he is a member now. He got baptized by them a little while ago. Now if nobody knows who the ICOC are they believe they believe they let the Bible speak for itself, which the big main thing they believe is that the point of salvation for a believer is baptism. They say Jesus can't offer you forgiveness until your baptized and that when you are baptized that is when you enter into Gods Kingdom. Now I totally believe in baptism but for some reason i don't want to believe Jesus cant forgive me of my sins until the point i come up out of water. What this church believes wouldnt bother me if they did not have tons of scripture to back it up! They bring up Romans 6, Pauls conversion in Acts where it states "get up be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name"( they claim that proves when your baptized is when you sins are washed away), they also bring up the great Commission where Jesus says "anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved, but anyone that does not believe will be condemned", another big verse these people say prove there theology is Acts 2:38 when Peter says "Repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins, and you will receive the holy spirit. 39 "this is a promise to you ...all all far off whom the Lord God will call". So they say if after baptism is when you receive the Holy spirit how can you be saved before baptism. Now why this is so important for me to figure out is because I am raising a five month old boy, my husband goes to this church..feels like this it the church that is one of the only Christian churches out there because there so Bible based (which i agree a lot of people and churces out there bring there on ideas into teaching when it should be soley the Word Of GOd) these ICOC members even helped my husband on a number of points where he was living sinfully! So that seems like a true Christian friend that they were the only ones to help him overcome some stuff. Anyway I have not been baptize yet i want to find a bible based Christian church to be baptized at because if i am baptzied by the ICOC then i have to believe that is the point when God is forgiving me. If it's true, then I have to believe it. There are many verses and I need help with. If anyone has any explanations or insight to these verses i provided or any knowledge you might have biblically about this church, then I would most appreciate your help! Please this one belief is tearing apart my husband and me and I want to bring my baby up in the truth of scriptures, i dont want him to be confused at all! So i better figure out the truth! I have asked many others and no one can explain away these verses. Some tell me not to even be so uptight about what the scriptures say, because i should already know Gods character. Well I know Gods character by the scriptures and what they truly say. If anyone could also provide some knowledge on a church denomonation that is very bible based where I might be able to go to them myself and ask some questions. I am desperate to find truth on what the scriptures say about this!

Thanks for any help you are able to give!
God BLess

Friend of I AM
Apr 1st 2008, 07:42 PM
Hello!
I am new to these boards but a lot of people here seemed very Bible-based and Bible smart so I thought I might be able to get some help here from some people. I consider this a tough question to my faith, which it is tearing my husband and me apart. My husband came across some guys a few months ago(in a seemingly miraculous way), they are from the International Church Of Christ. They started doing Bible studies with him and shared there theology w/ him. My husband continued to go to their bible studies, bible meetings and church services until he is a member now. He got baptized by them a little while ago. Now if nobody knows who the ICOC are they believe they believe they let the Bible speak for itself, which the big main thing they believe is that the point of salvation for a believer is baptism. They say Jesus can't offer you forgiveness until your baptized and that when you are baptized that is when you enter into Gods Kingdom. Now I totally believe in baptism but for some reason i don't want to believe Jesus cant forgive me of my sins until the point i come up out of water. What this church believes wouldnt bother me if they did not have tons of scripture to back it up! They bring up Romans 6, Pauls conversion in Acts where it states "get up be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name"( they claim that proves when your baptized is when you sins are washed away), they also bring up the great Commission where Jesus says "anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved, but anyone that does not believe will be condemned", another big verse these people say prove there theology is Acts 2:38 when Peter says "Repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins, and you will receive the holy spirit. 39 "this is a promise to you ...all all far off whom the Lord God will call". So they say if after baptism is when you receive the Holy spirit how can you be saved before baptism. Now why this is so important for me to figure out is because I am raising a five month old boy, my husband goes to this church..feels like this it the church that is one of the only Christian churches out there because there so Bible based (which i agree a lot of people and churces out there bring there on ideas into teaching when it should be soley the Word Of GOd) these ICOC members even helped my husband on a number of points where he was living sinfully! So that seems like a true Christian friend that they were the only ones to help him overcome some stuff. Anyway I have not been baptize yet i want to find a bible based Christian church to be baptized at because if i am baptzied by the ICOC then i have to believe that is the point when God is forgiving me. If it's true, then I have to believe it. There are many verses and I need help with. If anyone has any explanations or insight to these verses i provided or any knowledge you might have biblically about this church, then I would most appreciate your help! Please this one belief is tearing apart my husband and me and I want to bring my baby up in the truth of scriptures, i dont want him to be confused at all! So i better figure out the truth! I have asked many others and no one can explain away these verses. Some tell me not to even be so uptight about what the scriptures say, because i should already know Gods character. Well I know Gods character by the scriptures and what they truly say. If anyone could also provide some knowledge on a church denomonation that is very bible based where I might be able to go to them myself and ask some questions. I am desperate to find truth on what the scriptures say about this!

Thanks for any help you are able to give!
God BLess


Let's keep it simple...:)

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from youselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do " (Eph. 2:8,9)


Water baptism is a work of man. Although it's important to be obedient to the Lord, only by his grace - which allows us to be baptized in the blood and the spirit of the Christ will get us into Heaven.

Here's a site that has a lot of verses in it too, and summarizes some of what you're going through pretty well.

http://www.loriswebs.com/lorispoetry/grace.html

Hope this helps.

In Christian Love,

Stephen

Athanasius
Apr 1st 2008, 07:49 PM
In regards to Romans 6 and baptism, you may want to try the CARM website, which I'll link to you here: http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Rom_6_3-5.htm

The link answers well the claim that one must be baptized to be forgiven, all based on Romans 6.

Friend of I AM had it right on as well ;)!

thethinker
Apr 1st 2008, 11:17 PM
Baptism was indeed required for salvation during the intertestamental period. This period of time had to do with the passing away of the old covenant to the full arrival of the new covenant. So baptism was required for ONLY for the generation that lived in this period.

According to Hebrews 9 baptisms and all other external ordinances ceased when the new covenant fully arrived. Now that the new covenant age has fully arrived it is by FAITH ALONE that we are saved. Baptism was a temporary ordinance just as all the other external ordinances.

I am glad you came to this board with your question because there are others on this board who are like minded as your husband. They need to see how they burden the people of God today. Jesus said, "Come unto me all you that labor and are heavily burdened and I will give you rest".

Contradicting Christ they say "do this and that" or "be baptized by immersion" and maintain your salvation by "your works". They put burdens on people contrary to Christ's simple invitation. But the truth is that we live in the FAITH ALONE age now.

JoeChristian
Apr 2nd 2008, 01:29 AM
I do not see Hebrews 9 mention anything about baptism. Did not Jesus instruct us to baptize people of all nations in Matthew 28?

Tanya~
Apr 2nd 2008, 02:03 AM
Hi loveroftruth,

First of all, I pray that the Lord will bring His peace to your household, and that He will lead both you and your husband in the truth. Pray for your husband, and for your marriage.

Regarding baptism, here's the problem. Jesus did command His disciples to baptize people as part of the salvation process, the apostles faithfully followed His directions, and there isn't any Biblical reason for ministers today to not follow the same Great Commission. Baptism was the way people received Christ. Today, that has been replaced with the sinner's prayer, but in truth, baptism IS the Biblical way to receive Christ for a number of excellent and Biblical reasons. Please don't let baptism be a problem because baptism as part of conversion is Biblical.

With that said, it is disturbing when a church or group keeps on harping on one thing like that. It is out of balance and gets old pretty quickly, like a one-note song. There is one branch of the ICC that is questionable, the Boston movement. They have some disturbing teachings and practices. Did they make your husband write out a list of his sins for them? I would encourage you to WITH YOUR HUSBAND, not without, do some research about what he is getting into. Don't argue with Him about baptism (or anything else), but find out what you can together about the church organization itself.

Matt14
Apr 2nd 2008, 02:21 AM
Hello!
I am new to these boards but a lot of people here seemed very Bible-based and Bible smart so I thought I might be able to get some help here from some people. I consider this a tough question to my faith, which it is tearing my husband and me apart. My husband came across some guys a few months ago(in a seemingly miraculous way), they are from the International Church Of Christ. They started doing Bible studies with him and shared there theology w/ him. My husband continued to go to their bible studies, bible meetings and church services until he is a member now. He got baptized by them a little while ago. Now if nobody knows who the ICOC are they believe they believe they let the Bible speak for itself, which the big main thing they believe is that the point of salvation for a believer is baptism. They say Jesus can't offer you forgiveness until your baptized and that when you are baptized that is when you enter into Gods Kingdom. Now I totally believe in baptism but for some reason i don't want to believe Jesus cant forgive me of my sins until the point i come up out of water......


loveroftruth, I believe the scriptures do indeed teach that baptism is necessary for salvation. They are teaching correctly on this point.

However, there are other problems with the ICOC that make it dangerous. They are an offshoot from the real church of Christ, and they have gone astray in their "discipling techniques."

Please see this article for more about the ICOC:

http://www.carm.org/icc/icc_what_is.htm

If you would like to know more about what the actual church of Christ teaches, go here:

http://the7ones.com/what-is-the-church-of-christ/

If you would like to know what the bible really teaches on salvation, go here:

http://the7ones.com/who-will-go-to-heaven/

Please do not confuse the straying ICOC with the church of Christ. If you need any questions answered, please feel free to PM me.

God bless you.

Matt14
Apr 2nd 2008, 02:40 AM
Baptism was indeed required for salvation during the intertestamental period. This period of time had to do with the passing away of the old covenant to the full arrival of the new covenant. So baptism was required for ONLY for the generation that lived in this period.

According to Hebrews 9 baptisms and all other external ordinances ceased when the new covenant fully arrived. Now that the new covenant age has fully arrived it is by FAITH ALONE that we are saved. Baptism was a temporary ordinance just as all the other external ordinances.

I am glad you came to this board with your question because there are others on this board who are like minded as your husband. They need to see how they burden the people of God today. Jesus said, "Come unto me all you that labor and are heavily burdened and I will give you rest".

Contradicting Christ they say "do this and that" or "be baptized by immersion" and maintain your salvation by "your works". They put burdens on people contrary to Christ's simple invitation. But the truth is that we live in the FAITH ALONE age now.

About "faith alone," God says:

Jas 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Jas 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Matt14
Apr 2nd 2008, 02:43 AM
I do not see Hebrews 9 mention anything about baptism. Did not Jesus instruct us to baptize people of all nations in Matthew 28?
Joe, thethinker has some peculiar views of scripture known as "full preterism" that cause him to view scriptures a little different than most. For a good thread on the necessity of baptism, along with a representation of his views, go here:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=118128

God bless!

boangry
Apr 2nd 2008, 02:44 AM
I think the thief on the cross also shows that water baptism is not a requirement of Salvation, that it is a public confession through obedience
When a person is born again they receive the holy spirit and are baptised by the holy spirit

Matt14
Apr 2nd 2008, 02:59 AM
In regards to Romans 6 and baptism, you may want to try the CARM website, which I'll link to you here: http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Rom_6_3-5.htm

Thanks for the link, I just read it. However, he left a few things out about Romans 6:3-8.

Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

Believers who have been baptized share in Christ's death.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Those who have been baptized into Christ have been raised with Him, and can now walk in newness of life.

Rom 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

If we've been baptized into Christ, we will surely be in the likeness of His resurrection!

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
Rom 6:7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

If we have been baptized into His death, we have died to sin, and are freed from it.

Rom 6:8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.

If we are baptized into Christ, on Christ's behalf we will not be subject to spiritual death.

Seeing this passage shows us that those who are baptized:

1. Share in Christ's death
2. Have been raised with Him
3. Can now walk in newness of life (they are reborn!)
4. Will be in His likeness in resurrection
5. Have died to sin

If one is not baptized into Christ, then one has not shared in His death, has not been raised with Him, cannot walk in newness of life because they have not been reborn, will not be in His likeness in resurrection, and have not died to sin.

Paul further says:

Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom 6:18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Baptism was part of the "form of teaching" that Paul delivered to them, and if they obeyed, they were freed from sin.

Can one be saved who has not been raised, reborn, and freed? No, of course not.

Therefore, the CARM exegesis of this passage is faulty.

Matt14
Apr 2nd 2008, 03:04 AM
I think the thief on the cross also shows that water baptism is not a requirement of Salvation, that it is a public confession through obedience

That is a common view. However, the book of Hebrews says:

Heb 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.
Heb 9:17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

You see, Hebrews says the New Covenant was not in effect until Christ's death. Since Christ had power to forgive sins in any way He chose while walking the earth, the thief was not bound by the New Covenant. But after Christ's death, the covenant was in full force.

What does the New Covenant demand in regards to salvation? It's here, on the first gospel sermon preached following the resurrection:

Act 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This confirmed the Lord's New Covenant teaching, which He commanded the apostles to teach:

Mar 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Mat 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

God bless!

Literalist-Luke
Apr 2nd 2008, 03:31 AM
About "faith alone," God says:

Jas 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Jas 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. How then do you explain the thief who was crucified with Jesus and Jesus' statement that the repentant thief would be with Him in paradise? The thief was never baptized.

Matt14
Apr 2nd 2008, 03:33 AM
How then do you explain the thief who was crucified with Jesus and Jesus' statement that the repentant thief would be with Him in paradise? The thief was never baptized.
See the post directly above yours. ;)

loveroftruth
Apr 2nd 2008, 03:39 AM
Hi Everybody and Thank you so much!
I should be spending time on my college work right now, but this topic is so very important to me. Hi Tanya! Thanks for the reply. My husband is involved with the Portland International church of Christ. They did say my husband should write out a sin list, which he did, but they did not want him to read it off to them nor did they want to keep it or have him keep it as some stories on the web say. My husband has looked into this church months before he started attending and before he got baptized. My husband and I both have been to tons of diff sites. Me and my husband both are big believers in wanting to interpret scripture in the true and right way. I have to admit I prob haven't been acting very Christian to him about the whole baptism thing because I have gotten heated up and shouted at him wanting to prove him wrong with scriptures or something. I totally agree with you that Jesus COMMANDED us to be baptized into his name, but i guess the thing with me is that I just didn't or don't want to believe he cannot forgive me until i am baptized. although i think baptisms should happen right after a conversion. but there is lots of evidences in the Bible that point towards baptism being the seal for forgiveness and the holy spirits dwelling. I would appreciate your prayers for me to be a calm and loving wife to my husband though, because I get stirred about the forgiveness coming at baptism thing, probably because i was taught so differently growing up. I disagree with a lot my parents brought me up in though. my mom teaches all you have to do to be saved is believe in Jesus but you can continue to live in sinfulness to certain behaviors. My family is wealthy and they are raising my little sis to be a materialistic, self loving, sin loving "Christian". Its very sad.
Thank you Matt for your response too! Are you a church of christ member? I would really like to PM you and ask you some questions on the ICOC. I know there is a church of christ next to where I live, and maybe i should just be open to going there. I already know they believe baptism being the point of salvation. But i guess it seems the Bible might really be pointing toward that. Now concerning the ICOC, maybe it is the rebelliousness in me about the baptism or something else, but i still get angry when I think of becoming a member of their church I have already been to a few of their "bible talks" and I have already given my phone numbers to a few ladies. See I was really open to their doctrine for a while, but then i went the whole other way and prove them wrong with the Bible because of what they teach. I think it is because they are like there on "little family" and exclude from fellowshipping with other churches. Do they believe they are the one and only church that is teaching the truth? and what is the diff between them and the coc? Is there a problem between them? I really want to know the truth on where our family should be attending church. I'd like to know what the ICOC teaches that is dangerous. I have looked up so much stuff about them, but all the sites i looked into, i have not been able to match that up with the guys my husband hangs out with. So would you be able to tell me how I may PM on here???:confused
Seriously thank you for caring to respond and talk to me. I am spiritual needy right now and i want to get on the right track. So i am open to doing whatever Christ says must be done. I welcome all the help and insight you guys have on this issue and on the icoc.

My heart's Desire
Apr 2nd 2008, 03:40 AM
If you are already saved, I'd suggest that you don't strickly listen to people. Open God's Word and read it for yourself. Don't take verses out of context. Reading whole chapters or books help alot instead of just picking verses out here and there.
Ask God to show you what His Word really means. He will help you.

Matt14
Apr 2nd 2008, 04:14 AM
Thank you Matt for your response too! Are you a church of christ member?

Yes, I am a member of the church of Christ. I am also a minister and a few classes away from completing a master of divinity degree at a church-affiliated school. So perhaps I can help answer your questions. ;)


I would really like to PM you and ask you some questions on the ICOC.

That would be fine. But I just remember you are a new member, and I'm not sure how many posts you have to have before you can use the Private Message function on the board.


I know there is a church of christ next to where I live, and maybe i should just be open to going there. I already know they believe baptism being the point of salvation. But i guess it seems the Bible might really be pointing toward that.

It would not hurt to visit. Churches of Christ are generally smaller in congregation size, usually from as few as 50 people to as many as 1,000-2,000. They generally have a town name or street name associated with the location, as in "Brown Street church of Christ.

On the other hand, ICOC congregations are almost always much larger, and usually exist in large cities, taking their name after the city: Los Angeles Church of Christ, for instance.

If the one next door seems to be a mainstream church of Christ, and not ICOC, go visit, and ask questions! Try this site to find mainstream churches of Christ: http://churchzip.com.


Now concerning the ICOC, maybe it is the rebelliousness in me about the baptism or something else, but i still get angry when I think of becoming a member of their church I have already been to a few of their "bible talks" and I have already given my phone numbers to a few ladies. See I was really open to their doctrine for a while, but then i went the whole other way and prove them wrong with the Bible because of what they teach.

On the baptism issue, I was pretty rebellious about it, too. Then I continued studying (wanted to prove it wrong), and finally saw that it was true.


I think it is because they are like there on "little family" and exclude from fellowshipping with other churches. Do they believe they are the one and only church that is teaching the truth? and what is the diff between them and the coc? Is there a problem between them?

The problem between the mainstream church of Christ and the International Church of Christ is that the ICOC (known earlier as the Boston Movement) split off from the church. A guy named Kip McKean started the movement. Here are a couple of articles about this:

http://www.deusvitae.com/faith/denominations/icoc.html

http://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2007/08-24a.html

http://www.susquehannachurchofchrist.org/bulletin/2003/06-01-03.htm

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/how_to_identify_a_cult

The problem is not that the church of Christ does not think ICOC are Christians, but that the disipling techniques and pressure that they put on their converts is unscriptural.

However, the situation with the ICOC is ever-fluid, and the group your husband has run into may have changed away from the influence of Kip McKean since he left the group as leader.


I really want to know the truth on where our family should be attending church. I'd like to know what the ICOC teaches that is dangerous. I have looked up so much stuff about them, but all the sites i looked into, i have not been able to match that up with the guys my husband hangs out with. So would you be able to tell me how I may PM on here???:confused
Seriously thank you for caring to respond and talk to me. I am spiritual needy right now and i want to get on the right track. So i am open to doing whatever Christ says must be done. I welcome all the help and insight you guys have on this issue and on the icoc.

You're welcome. I'm glad you are so concerned about your family. Many of the old ICOC's may have dropped some of the high-pressure, cultic tactics that Kip McKean started. You'll just have to examine each congregation to know for sure. I'll be glad to help in any way possible, even as far as calling the congregation and having a "minister to minister" talk to find out what they truly practice.

Praying for you and your family! Everything is going to be fine, just take it slow, and examine everything according to scriptures.

God bless!

RevLogos
Apr 2nd 2008, 04:48 AM
I can tell you from personal experience that when I came to accept Jesus Christ as my savior, my life changed instantly. The Holy Spirit was with me. Things I used to do fell away, even things I was quite addicted to. The Holy Spirit had already came to me and changed me dramatically even before I was baptized.

Having said that, getting baptized was the greatest thing! I could feel the urging to get baptized grow stronger and stronger in me.

Here's the way I look at it. Think of it like buying a house. At some point you make a decision to buy the house. Then you have to sign the contract. Getting baptized is like signing the contract. It's something you have to do. But you were actually saved when you made that fateful decision to follow Christ.

Or look at it this way: If I decided Jesus was my savior, then had a tragic meeting with a large gasoline truck on the way to get baptized, would I be saved? Of course!

I know nothing about this church, but they have taken a very legalistic view of baptism. Legalism is a problem with some churches, but it is not God's way. They have probably become very legalistic in many other beliefs as well.

stephenb
Apr 3rd 2008, 11:00 AM
I totally agree with you that Jesus COMMANDED us to be baptized into his name, but i guess the thing with me is that I just didn't or don't want to believe he cannot forgive me until i am baptized.

Christ can forgive us anyway He wants to forgive us because He was given that authority. If He wanted He could state the condition(s) for being forgiven at belief alone. He could say the condition was to crawl on our hands and knees across 25ft of broken glass. You have already stated that you believe that Christ commanded baptism. Can you reject a command of Christ and be saved? It is there whether one wants to believe it or not.

Christ said in Mark 16:16 (NKJV) He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Do you believe what Christ said, "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved". He did not say "He who believes is saved and then baptized" but puts belief and baptism together before being saved.

Now, if you do not believe the very words of Christ read what He says in the last part of the verse "but he who does not believe will be condemned".

Studyin'2Show
Apr 3rd 2008, 11:47 AM
Christ can forgive us anyway He wants to forgive us because He was given that authority. If He wanted He could state the condition(s) for being forgiven at belief alone. He could say the condition was to crawl on our hands and knees across 25ft of broken glass. You have already stated that you believe that Christ commanded baptism. Can you reject a command of Christ and be saved? It is there whether one wants to believe it or not.

Christ said in Mark 16:16 (NKJV) He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Do you believe what Christ said, "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved". He did not say "He who believes is saved and then baptized" but puts belief and baptism together before being saved.

Now, if you do not believe the very words of Christ read what He says in the last part of the verse "but he who does not believe will be condemned".You can't just take a verse of scripture and build a doctrine around it. You need to read the whole book to understand context. And you need the revelation of the Holy Spirit to gain even deeper understanding. If I took one verse and attempted to create doctrine form it, I could come to the opposite conclusion that you have.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

I could say that there is no mention of baptism, only belief so baptism is not necessary. I could question someone's faith by saying, "Don't YOU believe the words of Messiah Himself?" but I would not do that. The fact is that it's not for us to simply look at one verse. All of scripture is woven together in an awesome tapestry and must be viewed that way. Is baptism an important part of our faith? Absolutely! But for someone to say that a person is not saved because he accepts Messiah and as he is walking down the hill toward the river, falls, hits his head on a rock and dies; is just plain foolish! Because that person was not physically baptized would not send them to hell and anyone that reads all of Scripture in context would see that. ;) Must we be so rigid and doctrinal and not simply be real?

God Bless!

stephenb
Apr 3rd 2008, 09:39 PM
You can't just take a verse of scripture and build a doctrine around it. You need to read the whole book to understand context. And you need the revelation of the Holy Spirit to gain even deeper understanding. If I took one verse and attempted to create doctrine form it, I could come to the opposite conclusion that you have.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

I could say that there is no mention of baptism, only belief so baptism is not necessary. I could question someone's faith by saying, "Don't YOU believe the words of Messiah Himself?" but I would not do that. The fact is that it's not for us to simply look at one verse. All of scripture is woven together in an awesome tapestry and must be viewed that way. Is baptism an important part of our faith? Absolutely! But for someone to say that a person is not saved because he accepts Messiah and as he is walking down the hill toward the river, falls, hits his head on a rock and dies; is just plain foolish! Because that person was not physically baptized would not send them to hell and anyone that reads all of Scripture in context would see that. ;) Must we be so rigid and doctrinal and not simply be real?

God Bless!

I do not have to use just one verse. If one has read the NT then one knows that there are many verses that show that baptism is necessary for the forgiveness of sins. Now, let me ask you a question. According to your belief, if I have not assumed to much, all one has to do is believe. Now, what would happen to someone who was hearing the word of God being preached and just before they believed they died of a heart attack would that person be saved or lost?

Cocerning your last comment about being rigid and doctrinal. Yes, I am going to be as rigid and doctrinal as Christ and the inspiried apostles and that is the real deal.

My heart's Desire
Apr 3rd 2008, 10:30 PM
I can tell you from personal experience that when I came to accept Jesus Christ as my savior, my life changed instantly. The Holy Spirit was with me. Things I used to do fell away, even things I was quite addicted to. The Holy Spirit had already came to me and changed me dramatically even before I was baptized.

That's because when you believed the Holy Spirit baptized you into the Body of Christ.
Brings to mind the story of Peter when he was sent to the house of the Gentiles. Up until then mostly Jewish people were being saved I assume.
Acts 10:43 - 11:18
Peter went in and basicly gave the Gentiles the story of Salvation about Jesus. In verse 43 it gives:

Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.
Right after that in verse 44 it says that while Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening. Peter said that surely no one could refuse that even the Gentiles could be baptized since the Holy Spirit had already fallen upon them.

Later in Chapter 11 as Peter is recounting his story to the apostles and the brethren, in verse 15 and verse 16, he said,

14: and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household."
15: And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning.
16:And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, "John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.
The gift of the Holy Spirit was given to these after they believed and before they were baptized in water.
So who is going to say these were not saved before water baptism and why would Peter bother making a distinction between the baptism of John and the Baptism by the Spirit?

thethinker
Apr 4th 2008, 08:51 AM
matti4 said:
Yes, I am a member of the church of Christ. I am also a minister and a few classes away from completing a master of divinity degree at a church-affiliated school. So perhaps I can help answer your questions.For instance, God justified Gentiles according to their obedience to the revelation in nature (Rom. 2). Those Gentiles NEVER heard the "believe and be baptized" message. YET GOD JUSTIFIED THEM. That's right! God justified some men without baptism. This means that baptism was not an absolute necessity for salvation.

The book of Hebrews explicitly says that the "various baptisms and external ordinances were imposed UNTIL the time of the new order", that is the full arrival of the new covenant age. Therefore, AFTER Christ finished His intercessory work the the need for these ordinances ceased. THEY ALL ceased! [chap 9]

Why? Because Christ interceded for His people in heaven by fulfilling the whole law of Moses concerning baptisms and external ordinances. Once the law of Moses was completely fulfilled the new covenant fully arrived and the faith alone gospel of God was fully placed. NO MORE EXTERNAL WASHINGS NEEDED! [chaps 9-10]

Studyin'2Show
Apr 4th 2008, 11:14 AM
I do not have to use just one verse. If one has read the NT then one knows that there are many verses that show that baptism is necessary for the forgiveness of sins. Now, let me ask you a question. According to your belief, if I have not assumed to much, all one has to do is believe. Now, what would happen to someone who was hearing the word of God being preached and just before they believed they died of a heart attack would that person be saved or lost?

Cocerning your last comment about being rigid and doctrinal. Yes, I am going to be as rigid and doctrinal as Christ and the inspiried apostles and that is the real deal.How can someone be just 'about to' believe? Either they believed or they didn't. Scripture says that He is longsuffering toward ALL those who 'would' believe. Everyone who would believe, will have the opportunity TO believe. God is not into just watching someone walk down an aisle. He's into the heart! He knows the heart so there are no almost believers. ;)

BTW, Yeshua is not into doctrine. He's into TRUTH! The religious leaders were into doctrine. :(

God Bless!

RevLogos
Apr 4th 2008, 01:43 PM
Now, what would happen to someone who was hearing the word of God being preached and just before they believed they died of a heart attack would that person be saved or lost?



To even ask this question is bothersome to me. God gives life and God takes life. God gives the gift of faith too.

We don't come to faith our of our own inherent goodness. 1 John 5:1 says a believer is born of God. Who does the work in giving birth?

Eph 2:8 says it more directly - faith is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God.

1 Cor 2:14 says the man without the Spirit does NOT accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness. The sinful mind is hostile to God (Rom 8:7). One does not receive the Spirit by believing what we hear! This is foolish. (Gal 3:1-5).

We don't come to faith by our own efforts, faith is given to us. From the beginning God chooses us to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit (2 Thes 2:13-14).

Matt14
Apr 4th 2008, 02:21 PM
I love you too, thinker. But I sure will be glad when your ax against me is ground all the way down. :lol:

The two scriptures below are the best arguments thinker has made against baptism in an ongoing discussion in another thread, and both arguments sidestep context of scripture, not to mention the overwhelming amount of scholarly and historical opinion in regards to his view.


matti4 said:For instance, God justified Gentiles according to their obedience to the revelation in nature (Rom. 2). Those Gentiles NEVER heard the "believe and be baptized" message. YET GOD JUSTIFIED THEM. That's right! God justified some men without baptism. This means that baptism was not an absolute necessity for salvation.

Paul was referring to a time before the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. He was not referring to Gentiles under the New Covenant. In context, he is saying that when the Gentiles by nature do the things required by the Law of Moses, they are justified before God. Paul IS NOT making an argument that anyone (including Gentiles) can be justified in this way, because he says later that no man can be justified by the works of the Law.

Paul is in the process of making his point that all men, whether Jew or Gentile, are sinful, and in need of Christ's sacrifice. He's made the point that all men have enough revelation to know sin, and even enough to obey, but that none are able to be perfect.

Therefore, this point thinker brings up is extremely invalid.


The book of Hebrews explicitly says that the "various baptisms and external ordinances were imposed UNTIL the time of the new order", that is the full arrival of the new covenant age. Therefore, AFTER Christ finished His intercessory work the the need for these ordinances ceased. THEY ALL ceased! [chap 9]

This argument has been refuted over and over in other places. Once again ignoring context and scholarship, you claim that the baptism of Acts 2:38 was somehow part of the temple ritual! Hebrews 9, however, is talking about the rituals of the temple and the various washings the priests underwent. Hebrews does not have in view baptism in Christ, since this was a New Covenant command that was not part of the temple ritual in any way.

I urge you to seriously reconsider this view. Whether one agrees that baptism is necessary or not, viewing Hebrews 9 as referring to the baptism of Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38, etc., is highly inaccurate.

Matt14
Apr 4th 2008, 02:27 PM
To even ask this question is bothersome to me. God gives life and God takes life. God gives the gift of faith too.

He's alluding to the argument that is constantly made by those who say baptism is not necessary. They say, "What if a person believes and is on his way to the river to get baptized, and gets killed on the way?" The question is asked in an attempt to invalidate the scriptural injunction regarding baptism into Christ.

The point he is making is that the same thing can be said of belief. If one is studying, and is close to coming to faith in Christ, but dies suddenly, would you say God would be merciful to such a one?

You see, both arguments are meaningless. God has commanded faith in Christ, and He's commanded baptism into Christ. Neither command is invalidated by the hypothetical questions posed.

Will God be merciful to either case? That's God's business, not mine. The mandate we received was to make disciples by teaching and baptizing. I am positive God can handle the special cases without my help. :)

Literalist-Luke
Apr 4th 2008, 03:07 PM
That is a common view. However, the book of Hebrews says:

Heb 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.
Heb 9:17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

You see, Hebrews says the New Covenant was not in effect until Christ's death. Since Christ had power to forgive sins in any way He chose while walking the earth, the thief was not bound by the New Covenant. But after Christ's death, the covenant was in full force.

What does the New Covenant demand in regards to salvation? It's here, on the first gospel sermon preached following the resurrection:

Act 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This confirmed the Lord's New Covenant teaching, which He commanded the apostles to teach:

Mar 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Mat 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

God bless!But Jesus was already dead by the time the thieves died, so your argument doesn't apply.

John 19:32-33 - "The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs."

Darren
Apr 4th 2008, 03:11 PM
john the baptist stated that he did indeed baptize with water, but that one who comes after him will baptize not in water, but in fire and in the holy spirit.

i feel the church of christ is attempting to make a necessity out of a physical baptism when scripture only requires us to be baptized(or filled with) in the holy ghost.

Darren
Apr 4th 2008, 03:25 PM
Acts 10: 44-48:

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.

45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered,

47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

this passage seems completely rigid in its meaning.

the order of events leaves no question, it seems, that the order is faith/regeneration/baptism.

the idea that regeneration follows faith, not baptism, is reaffirmed in Acts 11:17-18 where paul says:

17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”

18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”


notice there is no mention of baptism here, only the unquestioned details of regeneration: repentance, faith, and salvation.

by all appearances, acts 10 is unambiguous.

baptism isn't necessary for salvation.

Tanya~
Apr 4th 2008, 03:55 PM
Why was Cornelius baptized if baptism is unnecessary? You said there is no mention of baptism, but Peter did baptize Cornelius and his whole household -- all who had received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:46-48
Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
NKJV

Jesus baptized them with the Holy Spirit, and these were Gentiles. This showed Peter that the Gentiles were also acceptable to God, so he shouldn't withhold baptism from them. When you read everything leading up to Cornelius' salvation, and when you consider the mindset Peter had toward Gentiles, it is not difficult to understand why he would have been hesitant to baptize Gentiles without a clear indication from God that they also would be given the Holy Spirit. Peter understood that Jesus wanted the Gentiles, not just the Jews, to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

If water baptism was not necessary then Peter was mistaken to baptize them. But they also were baptized in the name of the Lord.

Darren
Apr 4th 2008, 03:58 PM
Saved by faith???

(Romans 5:1) - "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

(Ephesians 2:8-9) - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, that no one should boast."


Saved by baptism???

(Acts 2:38) - "And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

(Acts 22:16) - "And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name."

(1 Peter 3:21) - "And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"




the scriptures teach that justification is by faith (rom. 5:1). it also teaches that baptism is a necessary result of becoming a disciple of christ (matt. 28:18-19).

even 1 peter 3:21 says that the baptism mentioned is not one dealing with water, but an appeal to god.

baptism is not a requirement of salvation, but it is so closely tied to it that some people erringly think it is the actual thing that saves.

it isn't.

faith in christ is what saves.

Darren
Apr 4th 2008, 04:08 PM
TanyaP


baptism is a sign of submittal and in this case, the household of cornelius was showing publicly that they have inwardly submitted to jesus as the messiah.

many new testament verses refer to salvation (John 5:24, John 11:25-26, John 14:6, Romans 4:5, Romans 10:9-13, Eph. 2:8-9, etc.), yet only a few speak of salvation in the same sentence as baptism.

even in peter's sermon at pentecost, he tells of another "way" that man can be saved:

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Matt14
Apr 4th 2008, 04:43 PM
But Jesus was already dead by the time the thieves died, so your argument doesn't apply.

John 19:32-33 - "The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs."

What difference would that make? Surely you don't imply that Christ's promise that the thief would be with Him that day in paradise would then be revoked?

Did He not forgive lots of people of sins while He walked the earth? Would their forgiveness be revoked upon the death of Christ?

Of course not! Jesus forgave the thief, and the thief received what Christ promised.

However, according to Hebrews 9:15-17, upon His death the New Covenant was in effect, and from then forward all who come to Him must do so according to His last will and testament.

Matt14
Apr 4th 2008, 04:50 PM
john the baptist stated that he did indeed baptize with water, but that one who comes after him will baptize not in water, but in fire and in the holy spirit.

And He did that in Acts 2:1-4 and Acts 10:44-46. The results in both these cases were miraculous gifts, ie speaking in tongues.

However, in both cases, baptisms in water followed. Why?

The falling of the Holy Spirit upon the apostles in Acts 2 and Cornelius and his family in Acts 10 cannot mark the point of salvation. If it does, you have the apostles not being true disciples until Pentecost, and you have Gentiles being saved without being added to the body of Christ (Acts 2:41,47; Col. 1:18; Eph. 5:23).


i feel the church of christ is attempting to make a necessity out of a physical baptism when scripture only requires us to be baptized(or filled with) in the holy ghost.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes after a believer is baptized. Cornelius and his family experience miraculous gifts, but is that the same as the indwelling? If you say yes, then how do you know you are saved? Because I guarantee you we don't have miraculous gifts like they did in the 1st century.

Eph. 4:4-6 says there is "one baptism." Why did the apostles continue baptizingin water, knowing such a thing?

The baptism of the church is in water for the remission of sins, as preached in Acts 2:38.

Matt14
Apr 4th 2008, 04:53 PM
even in peter's sermon at pentecost, he tells of another "way" that man can be saved:

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Then why did the apostles baptize people?

And why is "calling on the name of the Lord" connected with baptism:

Act 22:16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

Tanya~
Apr 4th 2008, 05:08 PM
Hi Darren,

The problem is that the Bible doesn't separate baptism from receiving Christ. Baptism, not a sinner's prayer, is the Biblical way to receive Christ. Whenever someone is leading a person to Christ, they know that the person must do something in response. For this reason, ministers will usually lead the person in some form of the "sinner's prayer" to "receive Jesus into their heart." But that's not how it was done in the Bible. They were baptized to receive Christ. Your reference from Acts about "calling on the name of the Lord" was not a separate thing from baptism. Baptism was actually part and parcel of "calling on the name of the Lord" which is why Peter says it is "an appeal to God." Here is Paul's testimony about when he "called upon the name of the Lord."

Acts 22:12-16

12 "Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight.' And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 Then he said,'The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
NKJV


even 1 peter 3:21 says that the baptism mentioned is not one dealing with water, but an appeal to god.

I'm not sure how you get this from the verse. It says that baptism isn't about washing filth from the flesh, but is an appeal to God for a clean conscience. Baptism is still done with water though. People can't baptize anyone with the Holy Spirit, but they baptize with water. Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit, yet He commands that we do the water baptism. Ananias told Paul to be baptized and "wash your sins away." Baptism isn't about cleaning dirt off the outer body, but about an internal cleansing that God does inside us through faith in Christ.

Darren
Apr 4th 2008, 08:09 PM
The baptism of the church is in water for the remission of sins, as preached in Acts 2:38.

using the asv.

acts 2:38 --Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

in this sentence, there are three clauses , and the modifying phrases must stand in their respective, individual clauses, according to the rules of grammar.

the three clauses are --

(1) 'Repent ye---'ye' -- is the subject, second person plural number

'Repent' -- is a verb, second person plural number, aorist imperative active voice.

(2) 'be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins:

'be baptized' -- is the verb, third person singular number, aorist passive imperative voice.

'unto the remission of your sins' -- the modifying phrase.

(3) 'ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit:


'ye' -- the subject, second person plural number.

'shall receive' -- is the verb, second person plural number, future, indicative voice.

'the gift of the Holy Spirit' -- is a direct object of verb.

for your claims to be upheld, the first and second clauses would have to be connected to allow 'for the remission of sins' to modify both 'repent' and 'be baptized.'

but this creates the following grammatical problem.


in the first clause, the person and number of the verb 'repent' do not agree with the verb 'be baptized' in the second clause.

'Repent' is second person plural number; 'be baptized' is third person singular number.

it is the same in greek grammar as it is in english grammar---- it is a rule that the verb agrees with its subject in person and number.

Darren
Apr 4th 2008, 09:26 PM
you must understand that the accounts we have that refer to baptism come from a predominately godly or at the least a "god fearing mind-set". by that i mean, it was culturally relevant for a convert to display his submittal by way of baptism. the audiences in acts 2:38, cornelius' household, saul, and the eunuch were at the very least "god-fearers", and this means they had some understanding and belief in the god of israel. this is also true of those who participated in the baptism of repentance under the guidance of john the baptist. only a god-fearer understands the decree of repent. paul displays that baptism is not the custom of the gentile world by his minimizing the act when he states that "i baptized none of you" and later "christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel."

paul as the voice sent by christ himself to the gentile world never once mentions baptism to a totally gentile audience. as he stands amongst the elite minds of greece in the areopagus (mars hill), he utilizes greek philosophy, greek idols, and the resurrection to stir their hearts. why no cry for repentance? why did he not whisk them away to the nearest pool for baptism? because to a pagan world where baptism has no basis, it was not preached. but once converted they obeyed the decree of jesus and showed their devotion to him by publicly being submersed in water.


further, why water in the first place?


the bible describes the holy spirit as "the living water.”

in john 4 jesus says, “everyone who drinks from this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water i give him will never thirst. indeed the water i give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

in john 7 jesus says, “if anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. whoever believes in me, as the scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.”


it seems apparent "this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you" is talking about the anti-type "water" baptism, that is, real or actual holy spirit ' baptism that now saves you.'

it is the holy spirit who actually baptizes the believer into the body of christ.

1st corinthians 12:13 says, "for we were all baptized by one spirit into one body- whether jews or greeks, slave or free- and we were all given the one spirit to drink."

galatians 3:26-27, "you are all sons of god through faith in christ jesus, for all of you who were baptized into christ have clothed yourselves with christ."

ephesians 1:13-14, "and you were also included in christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised holy spirit ..."

titus 3:4-5, "but when the kindness and love of god our savior appeared, he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. he saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the holy spirit ..."


and of course, we know that paul teaches that we are saved by faith exclusively. ephesians 2:8, " for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of god."

baptism is a work no matter how you cut it.

and i as one who trusts my soul with christ alone, refuses to allot equal weight to anything or anyone else.

Tanya~
Apr 4th 2008, 10:18 PM
you must understand that the accounts we have that refer to baptism come from a predominately or at the least a "god fearing mind-set". by that i mean, it was culturally relevant for a convert to display his submittal by way of baptism. the audiences in acts 2:38, cornelius' household, saul, and the eunuch were at the very least "god-fearers", and this means they had some understanding and belief in the god of israel. this is also true of those who participated in the baptism of repentance under the guidance of john the baptist. only a god-fearer understands the decree of repent. paul displays that baptism is not the custom of the gentile world by his minimizing the act when he states that "i baptized none of you" and later "christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel."

It's important to look at the context, in order to determine why Paul said that to the Corinthians. And please let's not leave out critical statements lest people think Paul never baptized anyone.

1 Cor 1:11-17
11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
NKJV


His concern about baptism was that someone would say he baptized in his own name i.e., that he did it to get followers for himself rather than for Christ. The problem he is addressing here is stated in verse 12. People were favoring one teacher over another. Human nature is such that we like to pick favorites. So if Apollos baptized me or if I was baptized after receiving the message delivered by Apollos, I might favor him over Peter or Paul. ... "Besides, Apollos was trained in Alexandria and he is the most eloquent of them all. Peter's rough around the edges and uneducated. And Paul is well educated but he's ugly, a latecomer, and stands there like a scared deer. I like Apollos. I am of Apollos." Someone else might extol the virtues of Peter (Cephas) and talk about how he was Jesus' favorite and is the leader. Someone else would brag about Paul.

Paul did baptize some of them, as you can see in the passage. He wasn't dissing baptism, it was the sectarianism -- the favoring of one teacher over another that he was addressing. All the Corinthians were baptized, as were the Colossians, the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Philippians, the Romans and all the other Gentile Christians.


paul as the voice sent by christ himself to the gentile world never once mentions baptism to a totally gentile audience.What about the Philippian Jailer? Wasn't he a Gentile? And what about the Ephesians, who were baptized with John's baptism under the influence of Apollos, who Paul baptized again in water because they hadn't heard of the Holy Spirit and were not baptized in the name of Jesus? And what about the Galatians?


as he stands amongst the elite minds of greece in the areopagus (mars hill), he utilizes greek philosophy, greek idols, and the resurrection to stir their hearts. why no cry for repentance? why did he not whisk them away to the nearest pool for baptism? because to a pagan world where baptism has no basis, it was not preached. but once converted they obeyed the decree of jesus and showed their devotion to him by publicly being submersed in water.

Only a few responded, and it doesn't mention baptism one way or the other. That doesn't mean Paul never brought it up.



further, why water in the first place? Why not water?



it seems apparent "this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you" is talking about the anti-type "water" baptism, that is, real or actual holy spirit ' baptism that now saves you.'Let's look at the passage.

1 Peter 3

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us — baptism(not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
NKJV


The type is Noah and the ark. This is a type of salvation through Christ's resurrection. The antitype is baptism, also a figure of Christ's resurrection. The flood was before the fact, and baptism is after the fact.

Water baptism is a symbol the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

Rom 6:3-4
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
NKJV

Col 2:12
12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
NKJV



it is the holy spirit who actually baptizes the believer into the body of christ.

1st corinthians 12:13 says, "for we were all baptized by one spirit into one body- whether jews or greeks, slave or free- and we were all given the one spirit to drink."Right.


galatians 3:26-27, "you are all sons of god through faith in christ jesus, for all of you who were baptized into christ have clothed yourselves with christ."
Because the believers were baptized in water, their part when they 'clothed themselves' was when they were water baptized. When Jesus baptized them in the Holy Spirit, it wasn't something they did. So this is not talking about Holy Spirit baptism, but of their water baptism which they received by faith. In Scripture, when a person believed the gospel, they were always baptized in water. There are no exceptions of anyone receiving Christ in any other way. There is no example of anyone reciting a sinner's prayer or anything along those lines.



ephesians 1:13-14, "and you were also included in christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised holy spirit ..." The account of when this first happened to the Ephesians is recorded in Acts 19. Paul had left Priscilla and Aquila in Ephesus while he continued along on his journey. Apollos came there and began to speak in the synagogue. Priscilla and Aquila heard him speaking and realized that he knew the Lord but he was teaching only the baptism of John. So they took him aside privately and explained things more accurately to him. Then he left and went on to Corinth. So let's pick up the story from there:

Acts 19:1-7

And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"

So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."

3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?"

So they said, "Into John's baptism."

4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. 7 Now the men were about twelve in all.
NKJV



titus 3:4-5, "but when the kindness and love of god our savior appeared, he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. he saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the holy spirit ..." Yes.



and of course, we know that paul teaches that we are saved by faith exclusively. ephesians 2:8, " for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of god."Well of course, but baptism isn't a 'work' any more than praying a prescribed prayer is a work. It's just the Biblically ordained response to the gospel. If no response on the part of the new believer is necessary, why do people lead others in the sinner's prayer? Is it for their own benefit? And why not baptism? Baptism is the best way for the new believer to portray the gospel they now believe -- their death to sin and rebirth as a child of God.

When you lead someone to Christ, to you ask them to recite a certain prayer after you? Or do you just tell them to believe the gospel and then start discussing other things?

RevLogos
Apr 5th 2008, 12:10 AM
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes after a believer is baptized. Cornelius and his family experience miraculous gifts, but is that the same as the indwelling? If you say yes, then how do you know you are saved? Because I guarantee you we don't have miraculous gifts like they did in the 1st century.


No, the Holy Spirit is what causes one to have faith in the first place. If you read the verses I posted in #25, clearly faith itself is a gift of God, via the Holy Spirit. We all have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when we come to faith. I also know this from personal experience.

Nevertheless, baptism is something the Lord requires. If someone claims to believe but refuses to be baptized, we could question that faith.

The idea that we are saved by baptism is not scriptural. We are saved by faith that comes from the Holy Spirit.

My heart's Desire
Apr 5th 2008, 05:23 AM
Why was Cornelius baptized if baptism is unnecessary? You said there is no mention of baptism, but Peter did baptize Cornelius and his whole household -- all who had received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:46-48
Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
NKJV

Jesus baptized them with the Holy Spirit, and these were Gentiles. This showed Peter that the Gentiles were also acceptable to God, so he shouldn't withhold baptism from them. When you read everything leading up to Cornelius' salvation, and when you consider the mindset Peter had toward Gentiles, it is not difficult to understand why he would have been hesitant to baptize Gentiles without a clear indication from God that they also would be given the Holy Spirit. Peter understood that Jesus wanted the Gentiles, not just the Jews, to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

If water baptism was not necessary then Peter was mistaken to baptize them. But they also were baptized in the name of the Lord.
You make a good point and I'd agree with most of it except my point remains the same. They were saved before they were baptized.
It was BECAUSE of the fact that they believed the Gospel Peter had just told them that the Holy Spirit came upon them and they were saved. It was also because of that Peter saw no reason why they couldn't be baptised since they were saved after his testimony. I believe Christians should be baptised but I don't believe it saves you or condemns if left out, but I think Christians should be baptised.

Matt14
Apr 5th 2008, 03:23 PM
using the asv.

acts 2:38 --Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

in this sentence, there are three clauses , and the modifying phrases must stand in their respective, individual clauses, according to the rules of grammar.

the three clauses are --

(1) 'Repent ye---'ye' -- is the subject, second person plural number

'Repent' -- is a verb, second person plural number, aorist imperative active voice.

(2) 'be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins:

'be baptized' -- is the verb, third person singular number, aorist passive imperative voice.

'unto the remission of your sins' -- the modifying phrase.

(3) 'ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit:


'ye' -- the subject, second person plural number.

'shall receive' -- is the verb, second person plural number, future, indicative voice.

'the gift of the Holy Spirit' -- is a direct object of verb.

for your claims to be upheld, the first and second clauses would have to be connected to allow 'for the remission of sins' to modify both 'repent' and 'be baptized.'

but this creates the following grammatical problem.


in the first clause, the person and number of the verb 'repent' do not agree with the verb 'be baptized' in the second clause.

'Repent' is second person plural number; 'be baptized' is third person singular number.

it is the same in greek grammar as it is in english grammar---- it is a rule that the verb agrees with its subject in person and number.

This idea that "repent" and "be baptized" cannot both be connected with "remission of sins" in this passage is an old argument that has been refuted. In the interest of brevity, allow me to post a comment from an article regarding this idea. This is in regard to a letter Wayne Jackson wrote to a famouns Greek lexiconographer about this question:


Several years ago I wrote a letter to F.W. Gingrich, co-translator, along with William Arndt, of the highly-respected Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. This is the most authoritative Greek lexicon extant in the English language. The letter, dated February 12, 1968, inquired as follows:

Dear Professor Gingrich: Is it grammatically possible that the phrase “for the remission of sins,” in Acts 2:38, expresses the force of both verbs, “repent ye” and “be baptized each one of you,” even though these verbs differ in both person and number?

From Albright College, Reading, Pennsylvania (February 21, 1968), Gingrich replied:

Yes. The difference between metanoesate [repent] and baptistheto [be baptized] is simply that in the first instance, the people are viewed together in the plural, while in the second the emphasis is on each individual.

According to Gingrich, there is no problem with "repent" and "be baptized" bother being connected to remission of sins, at least not in the Greek grammar. You can see the whole article here:

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/acts_238_not_so_tough

Now, if one has a theological problem with it, it is an issue that must be taken up outside of the Greek argument.

Matt14
Apr 5th 2008, 03:26 PM
No, the Holy Spirit is what causes one to have faith in the first place. If you read the verses I posted in #25, clearly faith itself is a gift of God, via the Holy Spirit. We all have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when we come to faith. I also know this from personal experience.

Nevertheless, baptism is something the Lord requires. If someone claims to believe but refuses to be baptized, we could question that faith.

The idea that we are saved by baptism is not scriptural. We are saved by faith that comes from the Holy Spirit.

Faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

If faith comes directly from God to man, without any need for a man to make a choice on his own after hearing God's word, you throw the entire scriptures out of whack.

ishka
Apr 5th 2008, 04:47 PM
Hey there,

In order to be baptized first you have to be a new creature. It is said that we are saved by grace through faith and faith comes by hearing the word and staying in it. When you are saved God does something miraculous inside you that makes you a new creature, I mean NEW. That means that being saved, you will deny yourself, follow Christ, you will hate sin and sinning (that's why you keep on repentance) and you will want every day God's righteousness, that once you hated.
Now after you are saved, being baptized will not be a problem, because you are not ashamed to show that God is your Master. The only one that has anything to say regarding your salvation is GOD. If He wills he will save you, but if He doesn't will that, He will not. This is the simple truth.
The baptism is neccessary and you will not deny taking it. We have to follow Jesus's example , and He was baptized, therefore we have to be baptized too.Don't try to think to it as a condition to enter His kingdom, but just something that you do by following His example.

Matt14
Apr 5th 2008, 05:05 PM
Hey there,

Hi ishka, welcome to the thread. :)


In order to be baptized first you have to be a new creature.

The Bible indicates that after baptism one is a new creature. In Romans, Paul says:

Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Those who have been buried with Him in baptism have been raised to walk in newness of life. That's got to be a new creature, right?

Paul also says:

2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Paul said if anyone is IN CHRIST, he is a new creation. How do we get into Christ?

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Romans 6:3 says it too.


Don't try to think to it as a condition to enter His kingdom, but just something that you do by following His example.

Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

God bless you.

thethinker
Apr 5th 2008, 06:57 PM
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Jesus was talking about things which were true already under the old covenant. Note that He said "that which IS born of the spirit is spirit. That which IS born of the flesh is flesh". So the things Jesus spoke about were true as He spoke. That which IS....

So to be born of "water" cannot refer to baptism because it was true as Jesus spoke which was BEFORE He allegedly instituted baptism.

Speaking about Isaac and Ishmael Paul said:

"But as he [Ishmael] who was born according to the flesh then persecuted he [Isaac] that was born according to the spirit, even so it is now" (Galatians 4:28).

Matt14s presupposition that Jesus was talking about baptism has just been destroyed. For Paul said that Isaac, an old covenant man was born according to the spirit. Again, Jesus was speaking about things that were true even under the old covenant and even before the commission to preach and baptize.

The "water" Jesus referred to was the WORD OF GOD. It was the "washing of water, through the word" (Eph. 5:26).

Studyin'2Show
Apr 5th 2008, 07:17 PM
Jesus was talking about things which were true already under the old covenant. Note that He said "that which IS born of the spirit is spirit. That which IS born of the flesh is flesh". So the things Jesus spoke about were true as He spoke. That which IS....

So to be born of "water" cannot refer to baptism because it was true as Jesus spoke which was BEFORE He allegedly instituted baptism.

Speaking about Isaac and Ishmael Paul said:

"But as he [Ishmael] who was born according to the flesh then persecuted he [Isaac] that was born according to the spirit, even so it is now" (Galatians 4:28).

Matt14s presupposition that Jesus was talking about baptism has just been destroyed. For Paul said that Isaac, an old covenant man was born according to the spirit. Again, Jesus was speaking about things that were true even under the old covenant and even before the commission to preach and baptize.

The "water" Jesus referred to was the WORD OF GOD. It was the "washing of water, through the word" (Eph. 5:26).The micvah was something that was well established as a symbolic washing away of sin in order to come into the presence of the Father at the Temple. Let us not forget that it was John the Baptist that baptized Yeshua well before Messiah spoke the words you referenced, so the words I highlighted in red would not apply as it was NOT before baptism was instituted. ;)

Ironically, though I disagree with that statement, I do agree that the phrase 'being born of water' does not apply to water baptism as many supposed. Being the mother of three children I can attest that being born of water is indeed a reference to our physical birth as all children are encased in water and then born naturally in the flesh. Hence, the reference to birth and water.

God Bless!

RevLogos
Apr 5th 2008, 07:40 PM
If faith comes directly from God to man, without any need for a man to make a choice on his own after hearing God's word, you throw the entire scriptures out of whack.

No! It is the view that baptism is required for salvation that throws scripture out of whack! It combines justification with sanctification. Understanding the difference between the two is very important!

Justification is the work of God alone. It is a gift! We do not justify ourselves! When we are justified we are declared as righteous under the law.
Rom 4:3 For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:9 Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from God's wrath.
Gal 2:16 yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
Gal 3:11 Now it is clear no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous one will live by faith.
Out righteousness is not something we earn through our own efforts (including baptism). It is based upon Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross and received by faith alone.
1Pe 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we may cease from sinning and live for righteousness. By his wounds you were healed.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast.
Rom 6:23 For the payoff of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
While Justification is the work of God, Sanctification is the work of the person, with the Holy Spirit to become more Christ like in the person who has already been justified. Justification is instantaneous because it is solely a work of God. Sanctification is not because it involves both the work of God and the justified person.
Php 2:12 So then, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence but even more in my absence, continue working out your salvation with awe and reverence,
Php 2:13 for the one bringing forth in you both the desire and the effort — for the sake of his good pleasure — is God. The sanctified person obeys God, resists sin and seeks holiness. Obeying God means doing the many things God has commanded – including getting Baptized.
In these verses the context of baptism is in the context of obeying God – Sanctification.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to remain in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2 Absolutely not! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may live a new life.
Here we are told to obey God
1Th 4:1 Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more.
1Th 4:2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. 1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;
1Th 4:4 that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
1Th 4:5 not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
1Th 4:6 and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you.
1Th 4:7 For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.
The New Testament is a new Covenant between God and humankind. Baptism is a new covenant sign. It is similar to Old Testament covenant signs like circumcision, Passover, and sacrifices. It is an outward expression of what is happing inward. Baptism represents the inward washing of Christ’s blood on our soul.

Saying that Baptism is required for salvation is dangerous. It means that salvation is not a gift from God, that we must do something ourselves to be saved.
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So the life I now live in the body, I live because of the faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not set aside God's grace, because if righteousness could come through the law, then Christ died for nothing!

Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be declared righteous by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace!
Gal 5:5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait expectantly for the hope of righteousness.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision carries any weight — the only thing that matters is faith working through love.
Baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is a covenant sign. It does not save. To maintain baptism is required for salvation is to add a work, your own, to Christ’s work. When Christ said “It is finished.” He meant it was finished!

RevLogos
Apr 5th 2008, 07:45 PM
I do agree that the phrase 'being born of water' does not apply to water baptism as many supposed. Being the mother of three children I can attest that being born of water is indeed a reference to our physical birth as all children are encased in water and then born naturally in the flesh. Hence, the reference to birth and water.

God Bless!

Absolutely! I will add that when Jesus actually said this in John 3:5, baptism had not yet been instituted as a Christian ritual. So it most likely refers to physical birth. The only baptism it could have referred to was John the Baptist's baptism of repentance, which does not save either.

RevLogos
Apr 5th 2008, 07:53 PM
The Bible indicates that after baptism one is a new creature. In Romans, Paul says:

Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Those who have been buried with Him in baptism have been raised to walk in newness of life. That's got to be a new creature, right?



Here it is simply being said that baptism is symbolic of our death, burial and resurrection into Christ and the new covenant.

RevLogos
Apr 5th 2008, 07:57 PM
2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Paul said if anyone is IN CHRIST, he is a new creation. How do we get into Christ?

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.



Gal 3:27 is using baptism again as a symbolic union with Christ. Again it is an outward expression of this union, a union that already happened in our hearts. The NT occasionally uses the word baptism as symbolic of such a union. For example:

1Co 10:2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

Moses wasn't actually baptized, it is an expression of union or loyalty.

Matt14
Apr 5th 2008, 11:30 PM
Will respond to all your kind replies in the next day or so, Lord willing. Got classes to prepare for Sunday.

May God bless you all in every way according to His word.

My heart's Desire
Apr 6th 2008, 01:48 AM
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes after a believer is baptized. Cornelius and his family experience miraculous gifts, but is that the same as the indwelling? If you say yes, then how do you know you are saved? Because I guarantee you we don't have miraculous gifts like they did in the 1st century.
Perhaps not by what we see, hear,feel or say but entirely by faith. Just as when we are saved the moment we believe.

watchinginawe
Apr 6th 2008, 03:07 AM
...they also bring up the great Commission where Jesus says "anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved, but anyone that does not believe will be condemned",
...
Anyway I have not been baptize yet i want to find a bible based Christian church to be baptized at because if i am baptzied by the ICOC then i have to believe that is the point when God is forgiving me. If it's true, then I have to believe it.Hello loveroftruth. Yes, you get it and you have good reason to be concerned IMO. You don't want to mis-place your belief and your faith. You don't feel that the Bible teaches "believe and believe on baptism". The Bible is clear, believe on Jesus Christ, be baptized. The object of our belief is Jesus Christ, not baptism. When one submits to baptism it is because of prior belief in Jesus Christ, not a pending belief in baptism. This Church you mention seems to teach that one's pending belief regarding baptism is what is necessary for the water of baptism to be efficacious, or for it to "work" in remission of sins. It seems to me that they replace the blood of Jesus with water. In other words, they seem to believe that if you don't trust the baptism to do the work of salvation then it doesn't and thus you don't become a Christian even though you have faith in Jesus Christ and have been baptized in obedience to the command. :dunno: Like I said, you get it.

Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

So, if you have the testimony of the eunuch, then seek out someone that will biblically baptize you while not requiring you to place a belief in something else besides Jesus Christ.

God Bless!

thethinker
Apr 6th 2008, 11:08 AM
Ironically, though I disagree with that statement, I do agree that the phrase 'being born of water' does not apply to water baptism as many supposed. Being the mother of three children I can attest that being born of water is indeed a reference to our physical birth as all children are encased in water and then born naturally in the flesh. Hence, the reference to birth and water.

S2S,

My point was to show matt14 from the "is" that people were either born according to the flesh or the spirit BEFORE Jesus allegedly instituted baptism. Therefore, baptism is not required to be born according to the spirit.

Plus Paul said that Isaac was born according to the spirit (Gal. 4:29). Therefore, baptism is not a requirement for being born according to the spirit.

Jesus said to His disciples, "You are ALREADY washed through the word which I have spoken to you" (John 15:3). The disciples were both washed and born according to the spirit before Jesus "instituted" baptism.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 6th 2008, 11:58 AM
S2S,

My point was to show that matt14 from the "is" that people were either born according to the flesh or the spirit BEFORE Jesus allegedly instituted baptism. Therefore, baptism is not required to be born according to the spirit.

Plus Paul said that Isaac was born according to the spirit (Gal. 4:29). Therefore, baptism is not a requirement for being born according to the spirit.

Jesus said to His disciples, "You are ALREADY washed through the word which I have spoken to you" (John 15:3). The disciples were both washed and born according to the spirit before Jesus "instituted" baptism.I still disagree with your assertion that being 'born of water' is being washed with the word but I agree with your conclusion that it is not baptism that saves us as some sort of ritual requirement. With the way we've been going, I think that's pretty good that we at least end up at the same place! :lol: Ironically, ALL of us here who have accepted Yeshua as Lord and Savior, even with all the different interpretations on all the different topics, will end up at the same place eventually. I wonder if we'll spend one second in glory debating such things? :hmm: Nope! I believe all these things will burn away like so much chaff. :yes:

God Bless!

RevLogos
Apr 6th 2008, 04:43 PM
Now I totally believe in baptism but for some reason i don't want to believe Jesus cant forgive me of my sins until the point i come up out of water.
....Anyway I have not been baptize yet i want to find a bible based Christian church to be baptized at because if i am baptzied by the ICOC then i have to believe that is the point when God is forgiving me. If it's true, then I have to believe it.


How long have you been a Christian? Look into your heart. Do you feel in any way different than before? Do you look at sin differently?

The feeling that you're getting, that Jesus has indeed forgiven you of your sins, is coming from somewhere. It's coming from your heart. Feel it and listen to it. That loveroftruth, is the Holy Spirit, giving you discernment. Listen to it carefully and you will probably find that you already know the answer.

I will pray that the answers you read here will give you the confidence to better hear and trust in the Holy Spirit that is already working within you.

Next, we'll have to have a chat with the Holy Spirit about arguing finer points of theology with your husband. ;)

thethinker
Apr 6th 2008, 10:57 PM
Being the mother of three children I can attest that being born of water is indeed a reference to our physical birth as all children are encased in water and then born naturally in the flesh. Hence, the reference to birth and water.



S2S,
Being born of water has nothing at all to do with being encased in the water of the mother's womb. The physical birth of both Isaac and Ishmael involved this yet only Isaac is said to be born "according to the spirit".

Why was Isaac born according to the spirit and not Ishmael? Because Isaac was the child born of promise, that is, the cleansing word of God:

"But he who was born of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise...."

"But as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the spirit, even so it is now...." (Galatians 4: 23, 29).


Note that both children were born of their mother's water while only one was of the spirit. The one of the spirit was born of "promise", that is, the word of God. So Paul's explanation is that to be born of water and of the spirit is to be born of the spoken word of promise and the spirit.

"You are clean through the word which I have spoken to you" (John 15:3).

Studyin'2Show
Apr 7th 2008, 12:28 AM
S2S,
Being born of water has nothing at all to do with being encased in the water of the mother's womb. The physical birth of both Isaac and Ishmael involved this yet only Isaac is said to be born "according to the spirit".

Why was Isaac born according to the spirit and not Ishmael? Because Isaac was the child born of promise, that is, the cleansing word of God:

"But he who was born of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise...."

"But as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the spirit, even so it is now...." (Galatians 4: 23, 29).

Note that both children were born of their mother's water while only one was of the spirit. The one of the spirit was born of "promise", that is, the word of God. So Paul's explanation is that to be born of water and of the spirit is to be born of the spoken word of promise and the spirit.

"You are clean through the word which I have spoken to you" (John 15:3).I can see how you have come to the understanding you have though I haven't come to the same understanding. For me, the bottom line is that Yeshua was not speaking of been water baptized when He made the statement in John 3:5. :)

God Bless!

My heart's Desire
Apr 7th 2008, 02:36 AM
How long have you been a Christian? Look into your heart. Do you feel in any way different than before? Do you look at sin differently?

The feeling that you're getting, that Jesus has indeed forgiven you of your sins, is coming from somewhere. It's coming from your heart. Feel it and listen to it. That loveroftruth, is the Holy Spirit, giving you discernment. Listen to it carefully and you will probably find that you already know the answer.

I will pray that the answers you read here will give you the confidence to better hear and trust in the Holy Spirit that is already working within you.

Next, we'll have to have a chat with the Holy Spirit about arguing finer points of theology with your husband. ;)
This is a good post. And I'd like to add this to it and hope that it doens't seem harsh, but if you (OP) do not know that the Lord Jesus has saved you by faith in His death, burial and resurrection from the dead for YOU personally, then baptism of water will be meaningless to you. The only way that you may feel that baptism by water is meaningful is if you are NOT saved and you get baptised, you might feel that you are saved JUST BECAUSE you got baptised. This is my opinion. FWIW. (I do not believe water baptism saves you. I believe the belief (trust) is what saves you. If you discover that you are saved, then you yourself will know what to do about water baptism. Faith is NOT a feeling, it is simply taking God at His Word, specifically what He has said about His Son.

Matt14
Apr 7th 2008, 02:51 AM
Faith is NOT a feeling, it is simply taking God at His Word, specifically what He has said about His Son.

Not to mention what His Son has said:

Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

My heart's Desire
Apr 7th 2008, 03:13 AM
Not to mention what His Son has said:

Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
So you really think that Jesus meant that someone could believe Him for Salvation and not be saved if they don't get baptised by water? You REALLY believe that's what He meant? If baptism was as important to salvation as salvation is then why do you think the verse doesn't say thus...
He who believes and is baptised will be saved; but he who does not believe and is not baptised will be condemned.
????

Matt14
Apr 7th 2008, 03:18 AM
So you really think that Jesus meant that someone could believe Him for Salvation and not be saved if they don't get baptised by water? You REALLY believe that's what He meant? If baptism was as important to salvation as salvation is then why do you think the verse doesn't say thus...
He who believes and is baptised will be saved; but he who does not believe and is not baptised will be condemned.
????
What's important is not what I think, but rather what the Bible says.

Jesus gives us two categories. One, those who believe and are baptized. The other is those who do not believe. Why would a non-believer take the step to be baptized?

When we say, "belief only," we create a third category that Jesus did not give.

My heart's Desire
Apr 7th 2008, 04:01 AM
What's important is not what I think, but rather what the Bible says.

Jesus gives us two categories. One, those who believe and are baptized. The other is those who do not believe. Why would a non-believer take the step to be baptized?

When we say, "belief only," we create a third category that Jesus did not give.
The Father believes in the 3rd catagory apparently
John 6:30 For this is the will of My FAther , that everyone who beholds the Son and blieves in Him will have eternal life, and i Myself will raise him up on the last day.
Verse 47 - Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Why does He not include = he who believes and is baptised has eternal life?
In verse 30 It says that it is the will of the Father that everyon who beholds the Son and believes will have .... why not
it is the will of the Father that everyone who beholds the Son, believes the Son, and is baptised has eternal life?
See, there are many verses that specifies belief and doesn't mention baptism just as there are many that do.

My heart's Desire
Apr 7th 2008, 04:13 AM
I don't recall this answer from the Word, Matt, but do you recall anywhere in the Gospels where it specificly describes that any of the disciples were baptised in water?

SoldierOfChrist
Apr 7th 2008, 07:51 AM
I think many are missing the point of the Spirit baptism and the baptism of John.

Before going into all the scriptures that support this or that view let me tell you what I experienced.

When I was a child I was baptized in water.


How? By immersion in water.
What did I experience? I got wet, nothing else.
Did it change me in any way? No.

When I was I my mid twenties I was baptized in the Spirit.
How? By the laying on of the hands of someone that had the Holy Spirit.
What did I experience? It felt like someone poured warm water over me and I was filled with joy.
Did it change me in any way? Yes, it taught me to be a better person and to love others.
How? After I was baptized in the spirit when I had compassion on others the spirit would again pour over me… again and again… teaching me little by little over time how God wanted me to think and love others (read 1 Corinthians 2:1-16). It also gave me exceedingly great faith in God, no longer did I wonder if there was a God, for now I knew. So you are washed in the Spirit and the Spirit dwells in you and teaches you. The branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in vine. Jesus said for without him you can do nothing.



John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Water baptism is symbolic of the spirit baptism and Spirit baptism is being born of the spirit. The parable of the sower is this Spirit baptism Matthew 13 and the keys to understanding it are below.



John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



Mark 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? And how then will ye know all parables?

Mark 4:14 The sower soweth the word.

Anyone that says that the Spirit was only given in the days of the apostles has been deceived.



Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

Acts 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

Acts 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

His spirit is to dwell with you and teach you. There are many false prophets teaching the cessation of the Spirit and that only water baptism is available, denying the lord. Now John said that he (Christ) was preferred before him because he was before him.



John 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

John 1:27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

John 1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

But we read that they were justified by God being baptized with the baptism of John. John was sent to prepare the way, but he that is least in the kingdom is greater than he.



Luke 7:27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Luke 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

You do not need to be baptized in water to be baptized in the Spirit as others have pointed out. There is no greater gift than the gift of the Holy Spirit and without it we are taught by man and not God. The change that works is from within you, not without for God is able to change our hearts and minds.

Now I ask when we read the parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25), how can the oil which is the Holy Spirit fill us with only the baptism of John?

Matt14
Apr 7th 2008, 12:18 PM
The Father believes in the 3rd catagory apparently
John 6:30 For this is the will of My FAther , that everyone who beholds the Son and blieves in Him will have eternal life, and i Myself will raise him up on the last day.
Verse 47 - Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Why does He not include = he who believes and is baptised has eternal life?
In verse 30 It says that it is the will of the Father that everyon who beholds the Son and believes will have .... why not
it is the will of the Father that everyone who beholds the Son, believes the Son, and is baptised has eternal life?
See, there are many verses that specifies belief and doesn't mention baptism just as there are many that do.

How many times does Jesus have to say something before it becomes necessary to obey it?

What does "he that believes and is baptized will be saved" mean?

There are also verses that specify "repentance" only, and confessing Him only, but does that mean that's all faith is about?

Matt14
Apr 7th 2008, 12:31 PM
I don't recall this answer from the Word, Matt, but do you recall anywhere in the Gospels where it specificly describes that any of the disciples were baptised in water?

No, but they became disciples of Christ before the New Covenant was in effect after the death of Christ. Besides that, they likely were baptized with the baptism of John, as was commanded by God at that time.

Mat 3:5 Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him
Mat 3:6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.

But as with thief on the cross, when Jesus forgave sins before His death, they were forgiven. After His death the new covenant was in effect (Heb. 9:15-17), and sins are forgiven on the basis of that covenant.

RevLogos
Apr 7th 2008, 01:58 PM
Not to mention what His Son has said:

Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

He who believes and goes to church will be saved.

He who believes and prays will be saved.

He who believes and reads the Bible will be saved.

What is saving people? Belief!!!

By latching on to this verse and reading more into it that there is, the multitude of verses proving justification is by faith alone, and is a gift of God, are being ignored. We cannot ignore Rom 5:1, Eph 2.8, Phil 3:9 and so many others that tell us we are justified by faith alone.
Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
Php 3:9 and be found in him, not because I have my own righteousness derived from the law, but because I have the righteousness that comes by way of Christ's faithfulness — a righteousness from God that is in fact based on Christ's faithfulness
Further note in the very next verse:
Mar 16:17 These signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new languages
Signs that accompany those who believe. If baptism were required before these signs could happen, this verse would have been phrased "those who are saved".

AFTER we are saved we are commanded by God to do many things. Prayer, Reading scripture, loving others, and getting baptized, and more. We obey God because we are saved. Being saved is the work of God alone. It is a gift.

moonglow
Apr 7th 2008, 02:47 PM
That is a common view. However, the book of Hebrews says:

Heb 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.
Heb 9:17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

You see, Hebrews says the New Covenant was not in effect until Christ's death. Since Christ had power to forgive sins in any way He chose while walking the earth, the thief was not bound by the New Covenant. But after Christ's death, the covenant was in full force.

What does the New Covenant demand in regards to salvation? It's here, on the first gospel sermon preached following the resurrection:

Act 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This confirmed the Lord's New Covenant teaching, which He commanded the apostles to teach:

Mar 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Mat 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

God bless!

Now I didn't know that. So you taught me something new today! I saved your post on my notepad to refer to it to others that ask about the thief also. I saw it as one of those few exceptions since the thief couldn't hardly ask the Roman guards to take him off the cross to be baptized. I also felt that since there are people, very disabled or sickly people that cannot be dunked in water, that this would apply to them too. Since you explained this more correctly based on the bible....I have to ask now...what about those that cannot be physically dunked in water due to a disability or health issues? Or those that accept Christ on their death bed and their is no time to do this? What about them? I used to work with adults that had cerebral palsy and their bodies were extremely stiff.

It would be impossible to have enough men to fit in a common baptismal to carry them into the water. Its like carrying inflexible dead weight. Plus for some of them, they were hooked up to catheters or other medical instruments that could not be dunked in water like this. One guy I worked with breathed through a hole in his throat and there is no way he could go under water without it going right down that hole into his lungs. :( So what about them? Thanks.

God bless

moonglow
Apr 7th 2008, 02:59 PM
I did a reply inside your quote which I bolded so you would see it..scripture is bolded and in blue.


He who believes and goes to church will be saved.

He who believes and prays will be saved.

He who believes and reads the Bible will be saved.

What is saving people? Belief!!!


James 2:19
19 You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.

The bible does not say going to church saved you...or reading the bible saves you. Just believing isn't enough. As we see from this verse, even demons believe...are they saved? no! Lets see the rest of that passage:

Faith without Good Deeds Is Dead
14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?

17 So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.

18 Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”

19 You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. 20 How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?

21 Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. 23 And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. 24 So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.

25 Rahab the prostitute is another example. She was shown to be right with God by her actions when she hid those messengers and sent them safely away by a different road. 26 Just as the body is dead without breath, so also faith is dead without good works.

By latching on to this verse and reading more into it that there is, the multitude of verses proving justification is by faith alone, and is a gift of God, are being ignored. We cannot ignore Rom 5:1, Eph 2.8, Phil 3:9 and so many others that tell us we are justified by faith alone.
Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
Php 3:9 and be found in him, not because I have my own righteousness derived from the law, but because I have the righteousness that comes by way of Christ's faithfulness — a righteousness from God that is in fact based on Christ's faithfulness
Further note in the very next verse:
Mar 16:17 These signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new languages
Signs that accompany those who believe. If baptism were required before these signs could happen, this verse would have been phrased "those who are saved".

AFTER we are saved we are commanded by God to do many things. Prayer, Reading scripture, loving others, and getting baptized, and more. We obey God because we are saved. Being saved is the work of God alone. It is a gift.

The verses you are posting are part of the process we go through as believers. It all have to be taken into account, not just parts here and there.
First faith is given to us by God, I agree. Believing is part of that process, and no works do not save us, but without those works the bible says our faith is dead. Meaning there is no real faith. Just believing isn't enough. The two go hand in hand. A person can pick out certain verses and go by those only and say well the bible says this is I am right in my views...but it may not be right unless its balanced with other scriptures. That is why the whole bible needs to be looked at, not just parts of it, or things can get confusing for sure.

God bless

moonglow
Apr 7th 2008, 03:32 PM
I think many are missing the point of the Spirit baptism and the baptism of John.

Before going into all the scriptures that support this or that view let me tell you what I experienced.

When I was a child I was baptized in water.


How? By immersion in water.
What did I experience? I got wet, nothing else.
Did it change me in any way? No.

When I was I my mid twenties I was baptized in the Spirit.
How? By the laying on of the hands of someone that had the Holy Spirit.
What did I experience? It felt like someone poured warm water over me and I was filled with joy.
Did it change me in any way? Yes, it taught me to be a better person and to love others.
How? After I was baptized in the spirit when I had compassion on others the spirit would again pour over me… again and again… teaching me little by little over time how God wanted me to think and love others (read 1 Corinthians 2:1-16). It also gave me exceedingly great faith in God, no longer did I wonder if there was a God, for now I knew. So you are washed in the Spirit and the Spirit dwells in you and teaches you. The branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in vine. Jesus said for without him you can do nothing.


Water baptism is symbolic of the spirit baptism and Spirit baptism is being born of the spirit. The parable of the sower is this Spirit baptism Matthew 13 and the keys to understanding it are below.



Anyone that says that the Spirit was only given in the days of the apostles has been deceived.


His spirit is to dwell with you and teach you. There are many false prophets teaching the cessation of the Spirit and that only water baptism is available, denying the lord. Now John said that he (Christ) was preferred before him because he was before him.


But we read that they were justified by God being baptized with the baptism of John. John was sent to prepare the way, but he that is least in the kingdom is greater than he.


You do not need to be baptized in water to be baptized in the Spirit as others have pointed out. There is no greater gift than the gift of the Holy Spirit and without it we are taught by man and not God. The change that works is from within you, not without for God is able to change our hearts and minds.

Now I ask when we read the parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25), how can the oil which is the Holy Spirit fill us with only the baptism of John?

Don't you think that being baptized in the first place marked you for God? I don't see where a nonbeliever is just suddenly baptized with the Holy Spirit. I see these two issues working together in fact. When someone gets baptized what happened before they get dunked in the water? They publically confess that Jesus is their Lord and Savior, correct?

Matthew 10:32-34

32 “Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven

I was also baptized as a child and truly believed Jesus was my Savior. I think the bible explains how we go through steps of salvation...and this was my first step.

Philippians 2

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

If we aren't always working out our salvation, as the bible says, we are in danger of our faith growing weak.

Anyway, so I went through this as a child, but being a child I really didn't fully understand..I was not filled with the Holy Spirit. I believe I was spiritual marked by God though. As a family we went to church every Sunday and my dad would read the KJ bible to me in which I didn't understand most of what he was reading. I didn't know what were sins, outside the obvious such as murder and all. Later he died in a car accident when I was just 11...a year after I was baspizted. We stopped going to church. Years later my mom remarried and later that man became a preacher of two churches. By then I was a teenager and following the ways of the world, yet, there were times I knew God was there in my life. I could even tell you about some supernatural events that happened. I knew He was there and sometimes I prayed to Him but I had no clue to how to connect with Him and was still following the world. Doing alot of bad things that teenagers do! Drinking, smoking pot, smoking, cussing, etc, etc...

For all the things I did, the only time I really felt guilty about anything was when I lied. I couldn't stand the horrible feeling inside of me when I lied. It about made me physically sick to lie. I usually didn't have to lie too often though because my parents didn't know enough of what I was doing to confront me and I sure wasn't telling them! Yet there was God outside of me, watching over me and I did some pretty horrible things. I knew He was there, I never doubted He existed at all...but I wasn't born again by any means.

Only later when I finally surrended my life completely to Him did the Holy Spirit fill me. I had gotten baptized again as an adult because I was search for Him...to make that connection...to have that joy and peace inside that other Christians talked about. But I was still sinning terribly. I confess Jesus was my Savior again. Prayed over by the pastor and church and dunked in the water with a hiccie on my neck which I was extremely embarrassed about too! My boyfriend did that on purpose right before I was to get baptized either to make me not do it or to embarrass me...I don't know which. We broke up soon after..it was a cruel thing to do. He pinned me down and did that against my will. :mad:

Anyway, at this time I was not filled with the Holy Spirit..I was sinning, though I meant it when I said Jesus was my Savior, but I still didn't fully understand HOW He was my Savior. As I said, I became born again a while later while standing in my mom's kitchen having lost everything. I lost my marriage...a man that was abusive and I should have never married in the first place. I lost my home. I was having to start all over again. This time when I messed up my life like I had so many other times, it didn't just affect me, but my little baby son also. Something had to change. So I gave up my life...gave it over to Him as I could no longer do it. When I did that the desire to sin just went right out of me...poof. Not saying I don't sin, but these were lifestyle sins. I left them behind. :)

Then later...in a dream my Lord Jesus baptized me Himself. I have never attended a church that did the laying on hands to receive His Spirit and probably never will. God can do what He wants to do when He wants to do it. The point of this whole post is to show one person's example on the salvation process. Its ongoing and we go through stages. I don't think one passage put on this thread should be thrown out the window over another one. They are all important and all part of the process...they all work together.

Matthew 25 shows us we need to be following Christ and doing His Work and not caught doing our own thing.

God bless

SoldierOfChrist
Apr 7th 2008, 05:23 PM
Thanks for your testimony moonglow,

I too was not a Christian while growing up and became an atheist and I consider myself very fortunate to find the Spirit of the lord. My Spirit baptism was through a traveling faith healer and after they left I was on my own. I thought what I had experienced was what everyone else already knew, in fact I felt like this was something everyone else knew about but me. I was kind of angry thinking that no one had explained it to me before… how could I not of known? So I went from church to church and studied many different religions and found out that most confessed Jesus but did not know him and never would know him.


Don't you think that being baptized in the first place marked you for God?
You are referring to John’s baptism and the answer is no and I know of no scripture to support that.


I don't see where a nonbeliever is just suddenly baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Baptism is nothing unless you believe; you must first believe and then be baptized.


Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
I think Jesus made it very clear in the following passages:



John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


When someone gets baptized what happened before they get dunked in the water? They publically confess that Jesus is their Lord and Savior, correct?
Not necessarily I guess it depends on how old you were and who dunked you.

Sorry but I see many today confess Jesus with their mouth and then deny his Spirit.



Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.


If we aren't always working out our salvation, as the bible says, we are in danger of our faith growing weak.


Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Funny, I read this as Paul telling them they need to work out their salvation without him “Paul that is” (2:12) but telling them that it is God working in you to do his will (2:13). Is it not also after they were baptized in the Spirit.

How can you possibly do the will of the father without the indwelling of the Spirit? Yes you can read the Bible and follow the commandments, but there is more. It has been interesting going to different faiths and asking them how they receive the Holy Spirit. I have heard many different views on this and most are wrong. Some even teach that the Spirit is no longer available to us and this was only in the days of Pentecost. I have to say that they are wrong and they are taught by the traditions of man. I also know of some that received the Spirit but were unable to keep it, the parable of the sower.

Acts 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
I ask again when we read the parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25), how can the oil which is the Holy Spirit fill us with only the baptism of John?

Michael

Darren
Apr 7th 2008, 08:13 PM
Jesus gives us two categories. One, those who believe and are baptized. The other is those who do not believe. Why would a non-believer take the step to be baptized?



the contention is not whether a christian should be baptized. i have yet to find a christian who refuses baptism.

the problem is there are some who believe if you are not baptized, you are not saved. that somehow baptism is a necessity.

and as one who comes from a family of coc'ers, this is their view.

they will tell you, if you are not baptized in a church of christ you are hell bound---period.

i have just as much of an issue with this incorrect dogma as i do with those who connect salvation with tongues. or being baptized in jesus name only.

when i die, i will stand before christ, and christ alone.

not before christ, a tub of water, and a fiery tongue.

Matt14
Apr 8th 2008, 12:16 AM
the contention is not whether a christian should be baptized. i have yet to find a christian who refuses baptism.

the problem is there are some who believe if you are not baptized, you are not saved. that somehow baptism is a necessity.

and as one who comes from a family of coc'ers, this is their view.

they will tell you, if you are not baptized in a church of christ you are hell bound---period.

i have just as much of an issue with this incorrect dogma as i do with those who connect salvation with tongues. or being baptized in jesus name only.

when i die, i will stand before christ, and christ alone.

not before christ, a tub of water, and a fiery tongue.

But what about the scriptures, Darren? Jesus says we will be judged by His word, John 12:48. Jesus spoke the words in Mark 16:16, did He not?

In Mark 16:16, does "believes" and "is baptized" come before "saved," or not?

Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

The passage is simple. He who believes and is baptized will be saved. He who does not believe will be condemned. You only have to do one thing to be condemned: not believe.

Matt14
Apr 8th 2008, 12:18 AM
My friends, there are a lot of good posts in this thread, some directed to me, that I would like to respond to. However, I have some grad finals to prepare for and take, and I've got to spend lots of time on that. As soon as I have a moment, I will respond in detail, Lord willing. Please don't be offended if I do not respond quickly, I hope to return ASAP.

God bless you all!

Studyin'2Show
Apr 8th 2008, 01:14 AM
Do your churches take people right out to the river for the baptism or what? If you HAVE TO be baptized to be saved then it would be a horrible thing for someone to wait for the next monthly baptism or however your church does it because no one is promised tomorrow. If you are saying you MUST be baptized or go to hell, I hope your church has the water ready every moment because it would be irresponsible not to. No one here is saying that believers should not be baptized. Not at all! Absolutely belevers should be baptized but is there something in the water that saves them. Or in the words said by the preacher or is it that they have accepted the blood of Yeshua. What is it that has the power? Does God not know the heart?

Darren
Apr 8th 2008, 01:14 AM
But what about the scriptures, Darren? Jesus says we will be judged by His word, John 12:48. Jesus spoke the words in Mark 16:16, did He not?

In Mark 16:16, does "believes" and "is baptized" come before "saved," or not?

Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

The passage is simple. He who believes and is baptized will be saved. He who does not believe will be condemned. You only have to do one thing to be condemned: not believe.


o.k. so we are to do as jesus says.

fine, does the church of christ or others for that matter fulfill the remaining portions of the aforementioned verses penned by peters good friend, john mark?


Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


if you wish for me to name other verses by christ that i do not see being adhered to by the church i will, but these will suffice.

now, i am quite sure those who pooh-pooh the acts of casting out demons, speaking in tongues, laying hands on the sick, and taking up serpents will have many well established theological and hermeneutical arguments against them, but how can one justify not doing these things that follow those who believe while making arguments for something that is included in conjunction with them.

hey, matt--i pray you do well on your exams.

lmulholland27
Apr 8th 2008, 03:12 AM
Okay... I have been a Christian since I was five years old, but I was only baptized a few years ago. I have no doubt in my mind that if I would have been called home to the Lord before I was baptized that I would have been in Heaven. God does not call for baptisim as a way to salvation. The Bible is pretty clear when it states "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."(John 14:6) He does not say I am the way the truth and the life, and if you get baptized then you can come to the Father. Baptisim is an action that is taken AFTER you have accepted Christ, which is a personal commitment. Baptisim is a way to make the covenant you made with Christ public. I believe every Christian should be baptized, but I do not believe it determines the fate of your soul. "For it is by grace you have been saved..."

RevLogos
Apr 8th 2008, 03:28 AM
I did a reply inside your quote which I bolded so you would see it..scripture is bolded and in blue.



The verses you are posting are part of the process we go through as believers. It all have to be taken into account, not just parts here and there.
First faith is given to us by God, I agree. Believing is part of that process, and no works do not save us, but without those works the bible says our faith is dead. Meaning there is no real faith. Just believing isn't enough. The two go hand in hand. A person can pick out certain verses and go by those only and say well the bible says this is I am right in my views...but it may not be right unless its balanced with other scriptures. That is why the whole bible needs to be looked at, not just parts of it, or things can get confusing for sure.

God bless

Moonglow,

We do not disagree.

We are justified by a work of God. It is a gift that depends on no act of the person involved. Thanks be to God for his indescribable free gift! (2 Cor 9:15)
1 John 5:11-12----And this is the witness given, that God gave us everlasting life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has everlasting life. He that does not have the Son of God does not have everlasting life.

John 20:31----But these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that because of believing, you may have eternal life by means of his name.

Ephesians 2:8-9----By this undeserved kindness, indeed, you have been saved through faith, and this not owing to you, it is God's gift."

John 3:16----For God loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

John 5:24----Most truly I say to you, he that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life.

John 3:7----You people to be saved must be born again.
Clearly Justification is a gift. If we needed to do something to earn justification, it would no longer be a gift (other than confessing said belief).
Rom 10: 9-13 "That if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation, for whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved."
And what happens when we are born again?
Ezekiel 36:26-27 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you".

1 John 1:9. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
There is no mention of baptism in any of this. Why? Because it is an act of Man not an act of God. Those who believe baptism is a requirement for justification are taking a small handful of verses and I believe, incorrectly interpreting them, while ignoring a legion of clear teachings to the contrary.

When we are truly justified our behavior changes. We are no longer a slave to sin, but a slave to righteousness. We become a new creature. We become obedient to God. This is sanctification.
2 Cor 5:17 "Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come".

1 Cor 6:9-10 "Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, and swindlers – none of these will have a share in the Kingdom of God."

And most of James.
God commands us to do many things. Prayer, going to church, reading and learning scripture, loving others, repentance, confession, keeping commandants, faithfulness and yes, baptism too.

James is absolutely right. But those works he speaks of are a natural result of justification. The cause is justification, the effect is works, not the other way around.

If one is baptized without believing, they're just getting wet. If one claims to have faith but refuses to be baptized, I would question their claim.

My comments on Mark 16:16 were to show only that this verse is not sufficient to prove baptism is required for justification.

RevLogos
Apr 8th 2008, 03:44 AM
Okay... I have been a Christian since I was five years old, but I was only baptized a few years ago. I have no doubt in my mind that if I would have been called home to the Lord before I was baptized that I would have been in Heaven. God does not call for baptisim as a way to salvation. The Bible is pretty clear when it states "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."(John 14:6) He does not say I am the way the truth and the life, and if you get baptized then you can come to the Father. Baptisim is an action that is taken AFTER you have accepted Christ, which is a personal commitment. Baptisim is a way to make the covenant you made with Christ public. I believe every Christian should be baptized, but I do not believe it determines the fate of your soul. "For it is by grace you have been saved..."

Welcome to the boards lmulholland27! These are the best Christian forums I have seen. You will like it here, a great place to learn, to teach and exchange testimony and ideas. Sometimes discussions on certain theological points can get spirited but we all share a common faith and worldview.

My heart's Desire
Apr 8th 2008, 04:56 AM
You only have to do one thing to be condemned: not believe.
There you go. ;)

My heart's Desire
Apr 8th 2008, 05:14 AM
You know, it is not commanded in view of salvation EXACTLY, but you'd kind of think that maybe the Lord Jesus might have said "believe and partake of the Lord's Supper" and you will be saved. He didn't say that but which seems more neccessary? Baptism by water or partaking of the bread and the wine? Are they not sort of the same. Baptism-Buried with Him and raised to new life.
Lord's Supper - Bread - His body given for us, The cup - the Blood of the New Covenant. This of course, we do in remembrace of Him.

Clifton
Apr 9th 2008, 10:33 PM
The micvah was something that was well established as a symbolic washing away of sin in order to come into the presence of the Father at the Temple. Let us not forget that it was John the Baptist that baptized Yeshua well before Messiah spoke the words you referenced, so the words I highlighted in red would not apply as it was NOT before baptism was instituted. ;)

Ironically, though I disagree with that statement, I do agree that the phrase 'being born of water' does not apply to water baptism as many supposed. Being the mother of three children I can attest that being born of water is indeed a reference to our physical birth as all children are encased in water and then born naturally in the flesh. Hence, the reference to birth and water.

God Bless!

Mother of THREE???
Next thing you know you will be a grandma! :D

So I guess you no doubt know that Amniotic fluid is 99 percent water. The remainder consisting of dilute concentrations of the substances found in blood plasma, along with cells and lipids that have flaked off from the fetus? Of course, we know Christ knew that.;)

Your message got me wondering if Yeshua ever happened to deliver any infants during His time here on Earth in the flesh. I can just imagine the ladies running from the husbands to Yeshua, wailing, "Lord, my water is about the break, etc., will you deliver my child?" (or something along those lines). That would be so ironic and cool. I guess it is possible He preformed a "flesh delivery" of a child - after all, He is THE DELIVERER, of us too.:)

Blessings.

Clifton
Apr 9th 2008, 10:57 PM
using the asv.

acts 2:38 --Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

in this sentence, there are three clauses , and the modifying phrases must stand in their respective, individual clauses, according to the rules of grammar.

the three clauses are --

(1) 'Repent ye---'ye' -- is the subject, second person plural number

'Repent' -- is a verb, second person plural number, aorist imperative active voice.

(2) 'be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins:

'be baptized' -- is the verb, third person singular number, aorist passive imperative voice.

Yes, very good.;) Because it is in third person singular number, aorist passive imperative voice, it is an INDIRECT command and does have the force of "Repent", the aorist imperative active voice (DIRECT COMMAND). Sometimes Greek tools will express "baptized" is INDIRECT, but does explain that is because it in "third person singular number".


'unto the remission of your sins' -- the modifying phrase.

(3) 'ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit:The baptism/immersion WITH the HS,
as opposed to WITH water.

Emphasis Mine:
for John baptized with water,
but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit
not many days from now." Acts 1:5 Complete Apostles' Bible


'ye' -- the subject, second person plural number.

'shall receive' -- is the verb, second person plural number, future, indicative voice.

'the gift of the Holy Spirit' -- is a direct object of verb.

for your claims to be upheld, the first and second clauses would have to be connected to allow 'for the remission of sins' to modify both 'repent' and 'be baptized.'

but this creates the following grammatical problem.


in the first clause, the person and number of the verb 'repent' do not agree with the verb 'be baptized' in the second clause.

'Repent' is second person plural number; 'be baptized' is third person singular number.

it is the same in greek grammar as it is in english grammar---- it is a rule that the verb agrees with its subject in person and number.You certainly know your stuff, and the scriptures, don't you?;) Bet you know the mention of immersion in Acts 22:16 is in the MIDDLE VOICE too, yes? :thumbsup:

Be Strong!
Be Immersed!
Be Courageous!
Be Baptized! (βαπτισαι) (My ALT Bible inserts Acts 2:21 as a reference for 22:16)
Be Brave!

Blessings.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 9th 2008, 11:04 PM
Mother of THREE???
Next thing you know you will be a grandma! :DStop making me a grandma already! :lol: Actually, my oldest daughter got married last year but she's still is in college so I should still have some time before I pick up the 'grand' prefix. :D

Clifton
Apr 9th 2008, 11:06 PM
He who believes and goes to church will be saved.

He who believes and prays will be saved.

He who believes and reads the Bible will be saved.

What is saving people? Belief!!!



Those who believes and participates in BibleForums will be saved.:)

And everybody here shouted, "HALLELUJAH, AMEN!" ;)

Blessings.

Matt14
Apr 13th 2008, 07:15 PM
Ironically, though I disagree with that statement, I do agree that the phrase 'being born of water' does not apply to water baptism as many supposed. Being the mother of three children I can attest that being born of water is indeed a reference to our physical birth as all children are encased in water and then born naturally in the flesh. Hence, the reference to birth and water.

Yes, but the problem is, is that scholars have not been able to find ANY references to birth among the Semitic peoples being referred to as "born of water." This was just not a manner of speaking that they used.

The "born of water" meaning a physical birth idea did not come about until the 1500's and John Calvin, when he was the first (as far as we can tell) to suggest that "born of water" in John 3:5 referred to physical birth. He admitted that his interpretation was "new," so it was likely that it was the first time it was suggested. That was 1500+ years after Christ. Until then it was universally accepted that water referred to baptism.

For some more discussion on this passage, see my post here:

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=826445&postcount=219

God bless you!

Studyin'2Show
Apr 13th 2008, 08:15 PM
Nor are there references to the traditional Hebrew micvah or even the baptism of John being referred to as 'born of water'. So, now what? I say we simply agree to disagree. When I have a new believer come to Messiah, I will encourage them to be baptized. Not because I feel they will go to hell if they don't, but because the Master said to follow Him and He was baptized. ;)

God Bless!

Darren
Apr 28th 2008, 06:32 AM
o.k. so we are to do as jesus says.

fine, does the church of christ or others for that matter fulfill the remaining portions of the aforementioned verses penned by peters good friend, john mark?


Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


if you wish for me to name other verses by christ that i do not see being adhered to by the church i will, but these will suffice.

now, i am quite sure those who pooh-pooh the acts of casting out demons, speaking in tongues, laying hands on the sick, and taking up serpents will have many well established theological and hermeneutical arguments against them, but how can one justify not doing these things that follow those who believe while making arguments for something that is included in conjunction with them.

hey, matt--i pray you do well on your exams.


matt, how did the exams go?

with your knowledge of scripture, i am sure you did well.

could you reply to my above post.

so, since you are clearly a believer, do you speak in tongues, lay hands on the sick, or any of the other mentioned signs of the believer?

crawfish
Apr 28th 2008, 02:16 PM
Do your churches take people right out to the river for the baptism or what? If you HAVE TO be baptized to be saved then it would be a horrible thing for someone to wait for the next monthly baptism or however your church does it because no one is promised tomorrow. If you are saying you MUST be baptized or go to hell, I hope your church has the water ready every moment because it would be irresponsible not to. No one here is saying that believers should not be baptized. Not at all! Absolutely belevers should be baptized but is there something in the water that saves them. Or in the words said by the preacher or is it that they have accepted the blood of Yeshua. What is it that has the power? Does God not know the heart?

As a church of Christ guy, I can answer this: you are encouraged to get baptized the moment you accept Christ. I have seen people call the minister or elders up at 2 in the morning, and they'll immediately get dressed and go meet at the church.

The traditional view of CofC on baptism is "go down sinful, come up forgiven". I do not hold to that view. I think it's a mistake to try and pinpoint the exact moment of "salvation", or to try and put together a minimum set of requirements. It is clear in the NT that baptism God was an important and necessary part of the process; not because the act itself saves you, but it is part of our obedience to God. It is a simple thing that God has asked us to do.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 28th 2008, 02:35 PM
As a church of Christ guy, I can answer this: you are encouraged to get baptized the moment you accept Christ. I have seen people call the minister or elders up at 2 in the morning, and they'll immediately get dressed and go meet at the church.

The traditional view of CofC on baptism is "go down sinful, come up forgiven". I do not hold to that view. I think it's a mistake to try and pinpoint the exact moment of "salvation", or to try and put together a minimum set of requirements. It is clear in the NT that baptism God was an important and necessary part of the process; not because the act itself saves you, but it is part of our obedience to God. It is a simple thing that God has asked us to do.Well, that makes sense. Like Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch. I don't have a problem with anything you've posted as long as you can see, which you have stated, that it is NOT the act of baptism that saves you, as some seem to imply. ;)

God Bless!

crawfish
Apr 28th 2008, 03:32 PM
Well, that makes sense. Like Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch. I don't have a problem with anything you've posted as long as you can see, which you have stated, that it is NOT the act of baptism that saves you, as some seem to imply. ;)

God Bless!

I thought I was going out of my way to not imply that. :confused

No, the act doesn't save you. Obedience doesn't save you. But is your heart truly in the right place if you aren't obedient?

It's like the story of Namaan. It wasn't the water of the Jordan that cleansed his leprosy; it wasn't the fact that he dipped seven times. He submitted himself to God's will, in faith, and God cleansed him.

SoldierOfChrist
Apr 28th 2008, 06:24 PM
I think the point of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is missed here. It's really not about the gifts of the Spirit but the "Gift of The Holy Spirit".

For me John's baptism is is one of repentance... I will try and be a good person and repent of my past ways that are not good.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is fellowship with the lord. Having the lord lead you spiritualy as well as having a freind or father that you can talk to and he WILL answer you.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is to be born of Spirit and unless you are you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. I as some others understand born of water as born of flesh.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Now I think what the point is really that if you are born of Spirit the kingdom of God is NOW and not later.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

He is not the God of the dead but the God of the living.

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

In the parable of the virgins he says I know you not to the five virgins with no oil (Holy Spirit) in the lamps:

Matthew 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

Matthew 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Also in Luke 13:25-27 ...I know you not whence ye are...

The difference between the two baptisms is great.

Interesting subject. :)

Michael

Clifton
Apr 28th 2008, 09:33 PM
I think the point of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is missed here. It's really not about the gifts of the Spirit but the "Gift of The Holy Spirit".

For me John's baptism is is one of repentance... I will try and be a good person and repent of my past ways that are not good.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Well said.;) The "baptize" word, etc. is just a transliteration word for "immersion, whelm (to "overwhelm"), saturate, dip, and submerge for a religious purpose", which requires an element (or "instrument")...(spirit [or a spiritual element], death and resurrection, suffering, calamities, water, vinegar solution [to make pickles], work, etc.);

Generally, Bibles have begun to use an actual English word and meaning. AS one Bible Preface states:
Even the way the world speaks of things, a person who is totally committed to their career is not spoken of as being "baptized in their work". No, they are "immersed" in their work.

There are about 7 to 8 elements of immersions in the NT. In the verse you quoted, Matthew 3:11, there are three of them, each one starting with the word "with" (i.e. "with the element") - I'll fancy it up:;)

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you
(1) with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you
(2) with the Holy Ghost, and
(3) with fire:

So you have three elements mentioned here:
(1) water,
(2) the Holy Ghost.
(3) fire.

In a sense, the reading is "some of you with the Holy Ghost" and "others with fire" (which is not good). As the context of the passage shows, fire refers to eternal punishment.


The baptism of the Holy Spirit is fellowship with the lord. Having the lord lead you spiritualy as well as having a freind or father that you can talk to and he WILL answer you.It could can be stated as "The immersion/overwhelming of the Holy Spirit" and mean the same. When a person believes, they are overwhelmed - immersed into His name. It is just something that happens automatically (unless you are on the brink of death), thus, stands to reason, that according to the NT, Christ gave no 'command' (Imperative Mood Verb) to be immersed, whelmed, dipped, or submerged into any physical and materialistic element, nor would He had - especially with water (or the way things have gotten, let me mention blood and wine as well) via submersion, especially considering the past thousands of years where not all people had the luxuries of a laver or basin, or even a river, and especially in cold weather (which in some cases, lasts all year around) back in those days.

In a world such as this, it is not surprising that some downgrade the sacred and spiritual elements to that of physical and material elements. Elements can be 'mental' as well, "I am overwhelmed the government is giving me a Stimulus Check" ;)


Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is to be born of Spirit and unless you are you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. I as some others understand born of water as born of flesh.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Well, you missed one: ;)
Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God. John 3:3 LITV

Then the "contrasts" are shown in the contexts - flesh and spirit. In Verse 7, the "Ye" is PLURAL which includes others besides Nicodemus. This passage was an AORIST TENSE setting, thus, people getting 'born/generated from above" (aka 'born again') in the past, that time (including people in other parts of the World where Christ was not at then), and the future times.

My father told me back in the 1970's that some had reworked John 3 into a verse of baptism (as if Christ just "forgot" to mention it, like He forgot to use any imperative verbs for the bapt* words where "water" is the element:o), and I had forgotten about it until I was reading my WDNT Greek Dictionary which said some have done that, and in affect, in doing so, they are actually "reworking" other verses (due to the words used and constructions in Greek), among do other unjustified things here ("unjustified" is their nice word for it).


Now I think what the point is really that if you are born of Spirit the kingdom of God is NOW and not later.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

He is not the God of the dead but the God of the living.

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

In the parable of the virgins he says I know you not to the five virgins with no oil (Holy Spirit) in the lamps:

Matthew 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

Matthew 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Also in Luke 13:25-27 ...I know you not whence ye are...

The difference between the two baptisms is great.Yea - well, 2 elements of baptisms/immersions (probably more then we realize). Seems from the News, some are immersed / whelmed into the name of Britiany Spears, like they were immersed into the media Frenzy of O.J. Simpson back in the mid 1990's.

Actually, when one calls upon the Name of the Lord (Romans 10:13), they have immersed themselves - take Acts 22:16 for example, that verb is in the MIDDLE VOICE (which English does not have), meaning, the person does 'the act' upon himself (e.g. Grooms his hair) - so let the priest know that, when he tries to get your money and put you in a tub of water.:D Christ's Blood has washed our sins away.:)


Interesting subject. :)

MichaelThe "water" element 'command' substituting the "spiritual" elements 'automation' is of Roman-Latin origin: MAN. There is nothing in the Greek New Testaments that state your do not have eternal life if you do not get submerged in water - it is a trick used with English words.

Blessings.

Matt14
Apr 29th 2008, 01:37 AM
matt, how did the exams go?

Quite well, thank you! Got an "A" for my second semester of Hebrew. Now I'm enrolled in a Patristic Theology course, as well as Apologetics and Preaching in the Postmodern World. Going to be very interesting, I think.


could you reply to my above post.

Yes, I will go back and give it a look, and answer in this post a little further down.


so, since you are clearly a believer, do you speak in tongues, lay hands on the sick, or any of the other mentioned signs of the believer?

No, I'm afraid not. I believe that with careful exegesis of the passage (immediate and remote context included) we can see that:

1. Not all believers in the first century had miraculous gifts.

2. The miracles are not necessarily occuring now, nor do they have to be occuring now in order for the necessity of baptism to still be in effect.

Albert Barnes (who DID NOT believe baptism is required for salvation, BTW) said it well in relation to Mark 16:17-18:

Them that believe - The apostles, and those in the primitive age who were endowed with like power. This promise was fulfilled if it can be shown that these signs followed in the case of any who believed, and it is not necessary to suppose that they would follow in the case of all. The meaning is, that they would be the result of faith, or of the belief of the gospel. It is true that they were. These signs were shown in the case of the apostles and early Christians. The infidel cannot say that the promise has not been fulfilled unless he can show that this never occurred; the Christian should be satisfied that the promise was fulfilled if these miracles were ever actually wrought, though they do not occur now; and the believer now should not expect a miracle in his case. Miracles were necessary for the establishment of religion in the world; they are not necessary for its continuance now.

The fact that these signs occurred is demonstrated by scripture. The lack of them today or the lack of them in a certain believer is not a test of whether they are a Christian or not. Jesus did not say, "He that believeth and has miraculous powers will be saved." He said "he that believeth and is baptised will be saved."


fine, does the church of christ or others for that matter fulfill the remaining portions of the aforementioned verses penned by peters good friend, john mark?

The remaining portions were not commanded for salvation, and the church did in fact fulfill these portions in the first century. Since the miracles were for the confirmation of the word that was preached, and since we have God's perfect word in the form of the Bible, the miracles are no longer needed.

Anyway, hope that helps. :)

God bless.

Matt14
Apr 29th 2008, 01:40 AM
I thought I was going out of my way to not imply that. :confused

No, the act doesn't save you. Obedience doesn't save you. But is your heart truly in the right place if you aren't obedient?

It's like the story of Namaan. It wasn't the water of the Jordan that cleansed his leprosy; it wasn't the fact that he dipped seven times. He submitted himself to God's will, in faith, and God cleansed him.
Amen, crawfish, that is exactly the case.

Hebrews 5:9 says that Christ became the author of eternal life to all those who obey Him. Did Christ command belief and baptism? Yes, by His own mouth (Mark 16:16) and by His apostles (Acts 2:38). Therefore, to not be baptized is to not obey, which would directly affect salvation as Heb. 5:8-9 says.

Matt14
Apr 29th 2008, 01:45 AM
As a church of Christ guy, I can answer this: you are encouraged to get baptized the moment you accept Christ. I have seen people call the minister or elders up at 2 in the morning, and they'll immediately get dressed and go meet at the church.

The traditional view of CofC on baptism is "go down sinful, come up forgiven". I do not hold to that view. I think it's a mistake to try and pinpoint the exact moment of "salvation", or to try and put together a minimum set of requirements. It is clear in the NT that baptism God was an important and necessary part of the process; not because the act itself saves you, but it is part of our obedience to God. It is a simple thing that God has asked us to do.

Crawfish, I'm interested in how you view Acts 2:38 and 22:16. "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

Isn't it clear in Acts 2:38 that one's sins are forgiven upon obedience to the message preached, which includes baptism?

Isn't it also clear in Mark 16:16 that baptism stands between belief and salvation?

Matt14
Apr 29th 2008, 01:49 AM
Do your churches take people right out to the river for the baptism or what? If you HAVE TO be baptized to be saved then it would be a horrible thing for someone to wait for the next monthly baptism or however your church does it because no one is promised tomorrow. If you are saying you MUST be baptized or go to hell, I hope your church has the water ready every moment because it would be irresponsible not to.

Yes, we have a baptistry that is filled and ready to go at all times. ;) Plus, there are lakes, rivers, ponds, swimming pools, etc., all over the place.


No one here is saying that believers should not be baptized. Not at all! Absolutely belevers should be baptized but is there something in the water that saves them. Or in the words said by the preacher or is it that they have accepted the blood of Yeshua. What is it that has the power? Does God not know the heart?

Col. 2:12 seems to say that we are buried with Him in baptism, and raised with Him through faith in the power of the working of God. ;)

Matt14
Apr 29th 2008, 01:51 AM
Okay... I have been a Christian since I was five years old, but I was only baptized a few years ago. I have no doubt in my mind that if I would have been called home to the Lord before I was baptized that I would have been in Heaven. God does not call for baptisim as a way to salvation. The Bible is pretty clear when it states "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."(John 14:6) He does not say I am the way the truth and the life, and if you get baptized then you can come to the Father. Baptisim is an action that is taken AFTER you have accepted Christ, which is a personal commitment. Baptisim is a way to make the covenant you made with Christ public. I believe every Christian should be baptized, but I do not believe it determines the fate of your soul. "For it is by grace you have been saved..."

What do you think about the way Jesus places baptism between belief and salvation in Mark 16:16?

Matt14
Apr 29th 2008, 01:55 AM
You know, it is not commanded in view of salvation EXACTLY, but you'd kind of think that maybe the Lord Jesus might have said "believe and partake of the Lord's Supper" and you will be saved. He didn't say that but which seems more neccessary? Baptism by water or partaking of the bread and the wine? Are they not sort of the same. Baptism-Buried with Him and raised to new life.
Lord's Supper - Bread - His body given for us, The cup - the Blood of the New Covenant. This of course, we do in remembrace of Him.

Partaking of the Lord's supper is something that is commanded of His disciples. It is not something that is commanded in order to become a disciple.

However, baptism IS commanded to become a disciple (Matt. 18:19) and to become saved (Mark 16:16) and to obtain forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38) and to be added to the church (Acts 2:41,47).

Matt14
Apr 29th 2008, 02:01 AM
Yes, very good.;) Because it is in third person singular number, aorist passive imperative voice, it is an INDIRECT command and does have the force of "Repent", the aorist imperative active voice (DIRECT COMMAND). Sometimes Greek tools will express "baptized" is INDIRECT, but does explain that is because it in "third person singular number".

The baptism/immersion WITH the HS,
as opposed to WITH water.

Emphasis Mine:
for John baptized with water,
but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit
not many days from now." Acts 1:5 Complete Apostles' Bible

You certainly know your stuff, and the scriptures, don't you?;) Bet you know the mention of immersion in Acts 22:16 is in the MIDDLE VOICE too, yes? :thumbsup:

Be Strong!
Be Immersed!
Be Courageous!
Be Baptized! (βαπτισαι) (My ALT Bible inserts Acts 2:21 as a reference for 22:16)
Be Brave!

Blessings.

The argument Darren offers (which has already been addressed on page 3) comes from here:

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/baptism.htm

However, according to the prominent Greek linguist Gingrinch (far more authoritative than you, me, and Darren put together on Greek), "remission of sins" can indeed express the force of both verbs.

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1596151&postcount=43

-

Curby Wheeler
Jan 1st 2012, 02:37 AM
Baptism is an outward act symbolizing an inward event.

Like a parable which has symbolic elements, it parallels, but does not accomplish, salvation by grace through faith.

We should be baptized in obedience to the scripture, but just like the sacrifice of bulls and goats, it doesn't remove our sin.

When the chosen people were restored to the land of promise they crossed Jordan, were circumcised and glorified Yahshua.
Jesus was baptized in Jordan, and immediately a dove descended from heaven and God made the pronouncement "Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased."

When we believe and make the decision to follow Jesus, our baptism symbolizes crossing the Jordan and entering into the promised land. Restored to what Adam lost. Like the Israelites of long ago, when we are baptized we are making the symbolic proclamation that we have crossed into the promised land, have been circumcised in our hearts and glorify Yahshua.

By this act we identify with the chosen people into whom we are grafted, the wild olive branch grafted into the cultivated tree.

When we stand before our Creator, Lord, Judge and King, he's not going to shut the gate to someone because they weren't baptized. You're saved when you lay hold on God's grace by faith and are born from above into the family of the Son of the Highest.

God bless

Watchman
Jan 1st 2012, 02:32 PM
I know there is a church of christ next to where I live, and maybe i should just be open to going there.
Hopefully, this will not stir a hornet's nest...
Be very, very careful in looking into the Church of Christ. I was raised in a CofC congregation, have been identified with about a dozen of their congregations over the last 46 years, and have studied with many of their members quite extensively online over the last ~10 years. Since their congregations are all autonomous, there is a lot of disagreement and discrepancy between what is taught in different congregations. Some are very good and some are very damaging. Some teach works-based salvation and deny that the Holy Spirit does anything but seal us as God's. Some believe each time one sins they are lost until they repent and confess each particular sin. There are about 20 divisions among the Churches of Christ. The divisions were caused by things such as serving the Lord's supper with only one cup to be shared by all (yuck!), having a fellowship hall in the building, having a kitchen, the use of instrumental music in worship, cooperative works with other denominations...the list is long. Anyway, the purpose of this post is not to denigrate the Churches of Christ. The purpose is to advise you to be prayerfully careful! As with any group of people, the CofC has some bad apples...and they also have some precious saints.

blessings,

Watchman :)

BoB/335
Jan 4th 2012, 04:16 PM
I just read through this entire thread while noticing from the beginning that it was dated 2008 and wondering where it was leading to. I was hoping to see an update from the OP to see how she ended up making out.

I don't consider myself a Baptist but happen to be a christian who happens to attend a Baptist church for the past 11 or 12 years. I say that because even THEY don't believe that you MUST be baptised to be saved.

Reading through this I expected some other points to have been made that I will mention here. (It's nice to be able to contribute something that hasn't already been dragged around)

Oops! Having some computer problems right now but Romans 1:6 tells us that the gospel is what has the power of God to salvation. Also Hebrews was brought up back in this thread but point was not made. Seems there was a lot of discussion of "when" baptism was relevant through the history of Israel into Jesus' day and then AFTER his death. BUT Hebrew 4:2 says that the same gospel was preached back in the days of the wandering in the desert as we have today. They perished because of their unbelief just as what happens today. Salvation has always been by God's Grace through faith in His promise. This produces a changed heart. A heart for God and the things of God. That is what God is really concerned about. The heart. That is why Jesus answered what the more important commandment was. We continue to make such big deals out of all the externals and mainly of the externals "others" are producing. All the while God is looking at the heart. Can't imagine what He thinks about these forums.

Watchman
Jan 5th 2012, 01:56 AM
I just read through this entire thread while noticing from the beginning that it was dated 2008 and wondering where it was leading to. I was hoping to see an update from the OP to see how she ended up making out.

I don't consider myself a Baptist but happen to be a christian who happens to attend a Baptist church for the past 11 or 12 years. I say that because even THEY don't believe that you MUST be baptised to be saved.

Reading through this I expected some other points to have been made that I will mention here. (It's nice to be able to contribute something that hasn't already been dragged around)

Oops! Having some computer problems right now but Romans 1:6 tells us that the gospel is what has the power of God to salvation. Also Hebrews was brought up back in this thread but point was not made. Seems there was a lot of discussion of "when" baptism was relevant through the history of Israel into Jesus' day and then AFTER his death. BUT Hebrew 4:2 says that the same gospel was preached back in the days of the wandering in the desert as we have today. They perished because of their unbelief just as what happens today. Salvation has always been by God's Grace through faith in His promise. This produces a changed heart. A heart for God and the things of God. That is what God is really concerned about. The heart. That is why Jesus answered what the more important commandment was. We continue to make such big deals out of all the externals and mainly of the externals "others" are producing. All the while God is looking at the heart. Can't imagine what He thinks about these forums.
Well, I read the OP, then skipped and posted. Too bad I didn't notice the date, else I would've kept my keyboard quiet. Doh!

Bob, I have a suspicion that God looks at these types of forums the same way Jesus looked at His disciples when they were arguing about which would be the greatest in the kingdom. I'm glad He has the best sense of humor, eh?!?

blessings,

Watchman who needs to pay attention to dates of threads :cool: :D

amazzin
Jan 5th 2012, 02:08 AM
Hey guys this is an old thread. Don't resurrect them just for the fun of it......4 years later!