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mikebr
Apr 6th 2008, 12:38 AM
This was recently presented to me. Is it biblically correct?


Justification------------------>Sanctification--------------->Glorification
All God-------------------------> Me and God ----------------> All God

Saved7
Apr 6th 2008, 01:14 AM
mmmm....not really sure I even understand that presentation. But I will say this, sanctification is a process through which we choose to live more and more holy lives that God may be all in all...that He may be able to work through us freely without any flesh to hinder His work, and so that He might be glorified in all, and....

Ah, the heck with it, simply put....He must increase, and we must decrease.:)

mikebr
Apr 6th 2008, 01:41 AM
Maybe this will be better,

Justification is all God and none of me.

Sanctification is Some of me and some of God

Glorification is all God


It appears that you would go along with this. Am I right?

My heart's Desire
Apr 6th 2008, 03:53 AM
To be sanctified means to be set apart to God. Just like the items in the Tabernacle. They were set apart to God and were to be used for that purpose only. They were "set apart" or sanctified.

TheDayIsComing
Apr 6th 2008, 04:03 AM
This was recently presented to me. Is it biblically correct?


Justification------------------>Sanctification--------------->Glorification
All God-------------------------> Me and God ----------------> All God

I think this is wrong. I think that they are all "All God" He leads His sheep.

mikebr
Apr 6th 2008, 12:27 PM
To be sanctified means to be set apart to God. Just like the items in the Tabernacle. They were set apart to God and were to be used for that purpose only. They were "set apart" or sanctified.

Yes I know, But whose job is it to set me apart. Mine, God or Both?

Brother Mark
Apr 6th 2008, 01:35 PM
This was recently presented to me. Is it biblically correct?


Justification------------------>Sanctification--------------->Glorification
All God-------------------------> Me and God ----------------> All God

It's all by faith. Just as Paul wrote in Galatians, we begin in the Spirit and we are matured in the Spirit.

But without faith, it is impossible to please God. We must believe! Not only must we believe, we must act on that faith.

Do with it what you will. The devils believe and tremble.

John 2:23-25

23 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, beholding His signs which He was doing. 24 But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men, 25 and because He did not need anyone to bear witness concerning man for He Himself knew what was in man.
NASB

Faith that leads to salvation will lead to obedience. That that leads to obedience is also sanctifying faith. One can believe God in his head all he wants. But if he doesn't act on it in his heart, his faith is dead. And as the scripture above indicates, Jesus will not entrust himself to that kind of "faith" for either sanctification or salvation.

mikebr
Apr 6th 2008, 10:48 PM
It's all by faith. Just as Paul wrote in Galatians, we begin in the Spirit and we are matured in the Spirit.

But without faith, it is impossible to please God. We must believe! Not only must we believe, we must act on that faith.

Do with it what you will. The devils believe and tremble.

John 2:23-25

23 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, beholding His signs which He was doing. 24 But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men, 25 and because He did not need anyone to bear witness concerning man for He Himself knew what was in man.
NASB

Faith that leads to salvation will lead to obedience. That that leads to obedience is also sanctifying faith. One can believe God in his head all he wants. But if he doesn't act on it in his heart, his faith is dead. And as the scripture above indicates, Jesus will not entrust himself to that kind of "faith" for either sanctification or salvation.

Yes But even faith is a gift of God.

Brother Mark
Apr 6th 2008, 10:53 PM
Yes But even faith is a gift of God.

Yes it is. And always, the question is, what will one do with the gift?

My heart's Desire
Apr 7th 2008, 02:12 AM
Yes I know, But whose job is it to set me apart. Mine, God or Both?
I believe that when one believes in the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ and becomes saved that God is the One who sets you apart for His purpose and His Glory.

My heart's Desire
Apr 7th 2008, 02:20 AM
But without faith, it is impossible to please God. We must believe! Not only must we believe, we must act on that faith.

Do with it what you will. The devils believe and tremble.

John 2:23-25
.
Yes, there are lots of people who with their mind "believe in God" but yet they don't "Believe God". Especially when there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we MUST be saved. And that Name is the Lord Jesus Christ.

9Marksfan
Apr 9th 2008, 08:56 AM
I think this is wrong. I think that they are all "All God" He leads His sheep.

Hi TheDayIsComing - great to have you on board!

Ultimately, you are correct ie that it is God who sanctifies us - yet what I think the poster is meaning is that, while justification and glorification are monergistic, sanctification is synergistic ie it requires our involvement and co-operation (Phil 2:12-13), wheras the other two don't - this is standard Reformed theology (to which i'm glad to see you adhere!) - do you agree with that? John Piper describes it as God's decisive work and our dependent work - amen?

My heart's Desire
Apr 9th 2008, 03:48 PM
On the side, I was thinking that God sets us apart for His service, which is technical and He does it, yet on the practical side we have to be willing also to do His service etc after He has set us apart for His purpose and we sometimes disobey or whatever. Anyway, as I was thinking about it, I couldn't help but think of Jonah. God set him apart for His service at the time (to take the message to Ninevah) and Jonah ran from God, then he went and did what God desired and still he complained about the results (ya'll know the story) anyway in the end Jonah did end up doing what God has set him apart to do! So take it as you see it. (probably not the thread for "free will" predestination thing)
Anyway, I see us as sanctified (set apart for God) a condition we are in and others see sanctified as (cleaned up life, growth, etc) a conditioning. Anyway, neither here nor there (thinking out loud) :)

watchinginawe
Apr 9th 2008, 04:15 PM
This was recently presented to me. Is it biblically correct?

Justification------------------>Sanctification--------------->Glorification
All God-----------------------> Me and God ---------------> All God:hmm: Well, since all of the above is grace I would break it up like this:

Grace given:

Justification------------------>Sanctification--------------->Glorification
All God-----------------------> All God --------------------> All God


Grace received:

Justification------------------>Sanctification--------------->Glorification
Me and God------------------> Me and God ----------------> Me and God

God Bless!

mikebr
Apr 12th 2008, 08:41 PM
:hmm: Well, since all of the above is grace I would break it up like this:

Grace given:

Justification------------------>Sanctification--------------->Glorification
All God-----------------------> All God --------------------> All God


Grace received:

Justification------------------>Sanctification--------------->Glorification
Me and God------------------> Me and God ----------------> Me and God

God Bless!


Makes sense, but I must ask this. If justification takes place (all God) and I do nothing, will Glorification take place?

9Marksfan
Apr 12th 2008, 10:58 PM
Makes sense, but I must ask this. If justification takes place (all God) and I do nothing, will Glorification take place?

No - but justified sinners are never idle!

watchinginawe
Apr 15th 2008, 03:44 AM
Makes sense, but I must ask this. If justification takes place (all God) and I do nothing, will Glorification take place?I understand the point. That would be up to God. After all, it is His grace to give.

But it is apparent that God has a plan and has manifested that to all mankind. Jesus Christ is proof of that. Jesus offered this:

Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

So if God's plan is given by Jesus and the scriptures, then I would worry about one who does nothing. I realize there are other views of the scriptures, but that is my "read" on it.

God Bless!

9Marksfan
Apr 15th 2008, 08:29 AM
In the parable of the talents, what happened to the servant who did nothing?

mikebr
Apr 15th 2008, 06:59 PM
In the parable of the talents, what happened to the servant who did nothing?

I'm not implying that we do nothing. Simply that God will work through His vessels to accomplish His plan. I am a container for God. Christ in me is the hope of Glory. I just refuse to get bent out of shape over doing enough for God. The old saying "if its meant to be its up to me" is rubbish. If its meant to be its up to God. I will be steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord.

I also agree that a justified people are never idle. I am lead by the spirit and not motivated by earning anything.

Brother Mark
Apr 15th 2008, 08:52 PM
I'm not implying that we do nothing. Simply that God will work through His vessels to accomplish His plan. I am a container for God. Christ in me is the hope of Glory. I just refuse to get bent out of shape over doing enough for God. The old saying "if its meant to be its up to me" is rubbish. If its meant to be its up to God. I will be steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord.

I also agree that a justified people are never idle. I am lead by the spirit and not motivated by earning anything.


We don't have to perform for God. No doubt about that. Everything is 'from him, through him, unto him'. Yet we are judged by our deeds. Balance is always key in everything with God. He is Holy. But He is love. He is just but he is merciful. He's all of those things not just one or the other.

Without God's grace, we can do nothing. With God's grace, we can do all things.

mikebr
Apr 16th 2008, 06:53 PM
We don't have to perform for God. No doubt about that. Everything is 'from him, through him, unto him'. Yet we are judged by our deeds. Balance is always key in everything with God. He is Holy. But He is love. He is just but he is merciful. He's all of those things not just one or the other.

Without God's grace, we can do nothing. With God's grace, we can do all things.


Brother Mark, Do you realize how confusing this is? Especially to a non-Christian?

We don't have to perform yet we are judged by our performance.:o

Brother Mark
Apr 16th 2008, 07:29 PM
Brother Mark, Do you realize how confusing this is? Especially to a non-Christian?

We don't have to perform yet we are judged by our performance.:o

The entire scriptures are confusing to a lost man. They will never be able to understand the ways of God. Most saved people don't understand the ways of God either. That is why he wrote "My people perish for lack of knowledge".

We are judged by the amount of light and grace God gives us. What we do with that grace makes a huge difference. But our acceptance of him, as believers, is not conditioned upon how well we, in the flesh, perform for him. And let's not confuse words. I never said we were judged by our "performance" but that we are judged by our deeds. One can do a deed, yet not do it well. The ability to perform the deed is not judged. The deed itself is.

It's not something that will be easily explained. But it can be understood.

mikebr
Apr 16th 2008, 08:44 PM
The entire scriptures are confusing to a lost man. They will never be able to understand the ways of God. Most saved people don't understand the ways of God either. That is why he wrote "My people perish for lack of knowledge".

We are judged by the amount of light and grace God gives us. What we do with that grace makes a huge difference. But our acceptance of him, as believers, is not conditioned upon how well we, in the flesh, perform for him. And let's not confuse words. I never said we were judged by our "performance" but that we are judged by our deeds. One can do a deed, yet not do it well. The ability to perform the deed is not judged. The deed itself is.

It's not something that will be easily explained. But it can be understood.


My bad. Didn't mean to put words in your post. I would like for you to go a little deeper though with our deeds being judged.

If the deed is to tithe and I do it poorly or not at all will my performance not be judged?

timmyb
Apr 16th 2008, 08:55 PM
Yes I know, But whose job is it to set me apart. Mine, God or Both?

yours... James 4:7 Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Clearly there has to be some of your choice involved

mikebr
Apr 16th 2008, 08:58 PM
yours... James 4:7 Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Clearly there has to be some of your choice involved

So if I fail is glorification negated? If it is then it is not all God.

timmyb
Apr 16th 2008, 09:02 PM
So if I fail is glorification negated? If it is then it is not all God.

glorification is the result of your sanctification... it's a commanded blessing... God requires himself by his word to glorify you as you sanctify yourself... he justifies you by the blood of his son. but you have to ask... so that's you in agreement with God... He sanctifies you and you agree by drawing near and setting yourself apart... so that's again you and God in agreement.. and he glorifies you as you do that so again that's God rewarding you and blessing you for doing nothing other than agreeing with him...

make sense?

mikebr
Apr 16th 2008, 09:08 PM
glorification is the result of your sanctification... it's a commanded blessing... God requires himself by his word to glorify you as you sanctify yourself... he justifies you by the blood of his son. but you have to ask... so that's you in agreement with God... He sanctifies you and you agree by drawing near and setting yourself apart... so that's again you and God in agreement.. and he glorifies you as you do that so again that's God rewarding you and blessing you for doing nothing other than agreeing with him...

make sense?


Makes sense but I'm not sure it answers my question. What if I fail? To what extent do I have to agree with him? How much room is there for mistakes? If I don't do my part does He abandon me?

Brother Mark
Apr 16th 2008, 09:14 PM
My bad. Didn't mean to put words in your post. I would like for you to go a little deeper though with our deeds being judged.

If the deed is to tithe and I do it poorly or not at all will my performance not be judged?

What did Jesus say?

Matt 25:19-30
19 "Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. 20 "And the one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me; see, I have gained five more talents.' 21 "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave; you were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things, enter into the joy of your master.' 22 "The one also who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted to me two talents; see, I have gained two more talents.' 23 "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave; you were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.' 24 "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground; see, you have what is yours.' 26 "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow, and gather where I scattered no seed. 27 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.' 29 "For to everyone who has shall more be given, and he shall have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "And cast out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
NASB

Or 1 Cor. 3 if you want one with more grace in it.

1 Cor 3:10-15

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But let each man be careful how he builds upon it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.
NASB

If you compare the parable of the talents to other parables where God gives then takes back, he is often speaking of the word or light. So when God gives a man a word, the man doesn't respond, God takes it back and the man is condemned. The man is blinded because he rejected the word and even the word he has is stolen. (See Mark 4)

But for a man who responds and is saved, he may not do many good deeds but he does some. In 1 Cor. 3, we see God judges his deeds and he is left wanting. Though he himself is saved because he received the word and repented. But he did not work.

So a man's deeds are judged. We respond to the light we are given, he gives us more light and we work in that light and grace. We reject the light and we get more darkness and walk in that darkness and are judged.

timmyb
Apr 17th 2008, 01:19 AM
Makes sense but I'm not sure it answers my question. What if I fail? To what extent do I have to agree with him? How much room is there for mistakes? If I don't do my part does He abandon me?

that's where you have to realize God's mercy... He desires mercy.... It's not a question of if you fail... it's WHEN you fail... Jesus required of his disciples that if a man commits the same sin seven times a day against you and if he comes to you and repents you forgive him... Does not God do that and so much more? It's his grace that allows you the will to walk out holiness and to desire to be sanctified. Keep in mind He's the Father and the Shepherd and you are just a child and a sheep. You will make mistakes, that's why repentance. I can't remember where it says in the Proverbs but it says that a righteous man falls down seven times but gets back up again... It's the fact that you are struggling that God likes so much. Because you are desiring to be like him. Isn't that the desire of every son or daughter? Do you ever get frustrated at your 3 year old when he can't lift 200 lbs like you can? Or are you proud when he tries and fails and then he asks you to help him lift the 200lbs? God works the same way.

Jason Upton wrote a good song about something like this called "Just Like You" i recommend you listen to it

Teke
Apr 17th 2008, 04:30 PM
Anyway, I see us as sanctified (set apart for God) a condition we are in and others see sanctified as (cleaned up life, growth, etc) a conditioning. Anyway, neither here nor there (thinking out loud) :)

I agree sanctified is set apart for God, also meaning "holy."

Our thinking on this is sometimes in this order:
justification = our existence is justified
sanctification = God cleaning us up for His presentation of glorification to us

If we compare that model to that of Christ, of which we are His Body, it doesn't really work. His existence didn't need justified, it was simply witnessed by others. He didn't need to be sanctified as He was without sin (a state we fluctuate in), meaning He didn't waver or fluctuate as we do in the state of humanity. So He didn't need to be cleaned up to be presented to God.

It seems to me this should go more from the born again concept, and that looked at in light of Christology. So while the death burial and resurrection are a part of the whole, the incarnation and transfiguration is also significant, alongside His life and deeds .

Beginning with the incarnation He is holy. From our baptism we are holy. According to the law nothing can be done with anything so holy except to kill or destroy it, as it's only fit for God alone. (would we call this justification)

Life's most prominent deed predominantly is prayer, be that Life God or us in that Life, as prayer is our communication with one another. We walk in the spiritual in our being with God who is Spirit. Jesus walked in unity with humanity. [i]"If we live in the Spirit let us also walk in the Spirit" Gal. 5:25 , "righteousness of the law...who walk....after the Spirit" Rom. 8:4 (would we call this santification)

As to glorification, we can only glory in God, He is the one who receives all glory. So our glorification can only be in Him.:)

allanpopa
Apr 19th 2008, 11:41 AM
This was recently presented to me. Is it biblically correct?


Justification------------------>Sanctification--------------->Glorification
All God-------------------------> Me and God ----------------> All God

I'd tend to think that the unity between God and humankind during Salvation implies:

Justification - - - - - - > Sanctification - - - - - > Glorification
God and Us(plural) - - > God and Us(plural) - - > God and Us(plural)

Salvation = God reconciling the world to Godself = Human beings getting on board with God's plan = Two sides of the same coin.


Allan.

mikebr
Apr 19th 2008, 03:46 PM
santification-a progressive recognition of who I am in Christ and who He is in Me.