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A820djd
Apr 6th 2008, 06:48 PM
I made this post a long time ago and I can't remember where I saw it and what it means... Somewhere in the bible I think it says the holy spirit will be removed... What does this mean exactly...? Lamens terms... Does it apply to Christians?

threebigrocks
Apr 6th 2008, 08:04 PM
I know the verse you speak of but for the life of me I can't get it to the front of my mind!! I'm sure someone will post it.

Ephesians 1



13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.



The Spirit will not be entirely removed, but moved aside. We are given the Spirit as a pledge, a deposit, of our inheritance. That remains with us until the time of judgement when the Father will see His Son in us through the Spirit that lives within us. That is what makes our sin "invisible" to God. That Spirit within us, and the Spirit that works in the hearts of people won't just be taken away.

God's hand that holds back evil will be moved aside, but the Spirit remains.

markedward
Apr 6th 2008, 08:18 PM
2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 mentions a restrainer being removed before the coming of the "man of lawlessness." Some people interpret "the one who holds it back" as referring to the Holy Spirit, but the passage never outright says as much. Could this be the passage you are thinking of?

A820djd
Apr 6th 2008, 08:24 PM
2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 mentions a restrainer being removed before the coming of the "man of lawlessness." Some people interpret "the one who holds it back" as referring to the Holy Spirit, but the passage never outright says as much. Could this be the passage you are thinking of?


Maybe... I just wanna go God is always with me.

threebigrocks
Apr 6th 2008, 08:30 PM
2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 mentions a restrainer being removed before the coming of the "man of lawlessness." Some people interpret "the one who holds it back" as referring to the Holy Spirit, but the passage never outright says as much. Could this be the passage you are thinking of?

Ah ha!

2 Thessalonians 2



3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=60&chapter=2&version=49#fen-NASB-29665a)]apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.



What holds back the evil will be removed to allow for God's plan to do it's work.

threebigrocks
Apr 6th 2008, 08:34 PM
Maybe... I just wanna go God is always with me.

;) Remain in Him, and He will remain in you. He is always with you!

Brother Mark
Apr 6th 2008, 11:27 PM
I have a different take on that thessalonians scripture. God just removes the "hedge" that restrains the evil one. Of course, we know the hedge that restrains is the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit will still be here as the 144,000 will be sealed as we are sealed.

SI, surrender to God and he will never let you go. ;)

timmyb
Apr 6th 2008, 11:35 PM
The Holy Spirit cannot be the restrainer because how can 144,000 Jews be saved without the Spirit of God drawing them to him? (Rev 7) That will be a total contradiction of Scripture for that to happen. I believe it's the hand of God over man's government... The Chinese church is experiencing persecution in the same manner right now...

threebigrocks
Apr 6th 2008, 11:52 PM
Matthew 5


18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Until the end, the gospel will be present. So, indeed, until the end the gospel will be preached, and God willl continue to draw people to Him through the Spirit.

Naphal
Apr 6th 2008, 11:59 PM
I made this post a long time ago and I can't remember where I saw it and what it means... Somewhere in the bible I think it says the holy spirit will be removed... What does this mean exactly...? Lamens terms... Does it apply to Christians?


John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


I think you are mistaking that Christ would be removed and the Holy Spirit would be sent.

TEITZY
Apr 7th 2008, 05:15 AM
It is the restraining influence of the Spirit on evil that is removed, rather than the Restrainer Himself. Genesis 6:3 indicates that God's Spirit is continually 'striving' with men against evil, but God's patience does have a limit. So just prior to Christ's return this restraint will be removed and allow satan and his demons to run rampant on the earth, while the moral depravity of unregenerate men will also reach a new low and then judgment will come.

In 2 Thess 2:7 the Greek does not have to mean a literal removal (in the spatial or physical sense) of the Restrainer, but can mean a moving or stepping aside. The NLT translation brings this thought out:

For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way.

Several other translations, including formal equivalents like the ESV, also give the thought that "he is out of the way" rather than physically "taken away" or removed.

This of course means that the Spirit can still be present (as He has always been since He is omni-present) on the earth and performing His role of regeneration during the Tribulation period.

Cheers
Leigh

Servant89
Apr 13th 2008, 08:51 PM
There is no Scripture stating the HS will be removed. The one Scripture that people use to justify that error is the one quoted here 1Th 2 but that one does not identify the restrainer.

The one that fights Satan constantly in Scripture is Michael the arcangel (Jude 1:9). He fought Satan mano a mano or the body of Moses, he is the one fighting Satan mano a mano in Rev 12. There are two angels for every demon so there is no need to God to get involved. Don't give the devil that much credit.

It amazes me how some people believe that the greatest revival that will ever happend (Rev 7:9) could happen without the HS. Angels could count up to 200 millions in Revelation but this multitude could not be counted and it happened during the great tribulation (Rev 7:14). That can not be!

Furthermore, King James talks about (1Thes 2) the one that withholdeth satan is the one that will be removed, but in Daniel 10:21 Gabriel states that no one "holdeth with" him (fights top demons) but Michael the arc angel.

Michael is the arc angel protector of Israel (Dan 10:21 and 12:1), when Israel disappeared as a nation, he went on vacation or something but Daniel 12:1 states that at the end he will come back and stand again (probably after Israel becomes a nation again, my guess).

Shalom

Servant89
Apr 13th 2008, 08:55 PM
Jesus said : It is expedient that I go away so the Comforter will come (the HS). and so he did.

But the Comforter will not leave us nor forsake us.

The HS comforts us in our tribulation (2 Cor 1:4), no he is not going away when trouble comes, he gets closer .

Shalom

Naphal
Apr 13th 2008, 09:00 PM
The one that fights Satan constantly in Scripture is Michael the arcangel (Jude 1:9). He fought Satan mano a mano or the body of Moses, he is the one fighting Satan mano a mano in Rev 12.


Just for the record Michael intentionally didn't want to argue or fight over the body of Moses so he simply said "The Lord rebuke thee" and that's it. It was a verbal argument that Satan tried to start and Michael knew it was fruitless to engage in a debate with Satan.



There are two angels for every demon so there is no need to God to get involved. Don't give the devil that much credit.

Where do we see there are two angels for every demon?



Michael is the arc angel protector of Israel (Dan 10:21 and 12:1), when Israel disappeared as a nation, he went on vacation or something but Daniel 12:1 states that at the end he will come back and stand again (probably after Israel becomes a nation again, my guess).

I suspect he wasnt on vacation personally.

Servant89
Apr 15th 2008, 12:29 AM
<<Just for the record Michael intentionally didn't want to argue or fight over the body of Moses.>>

Good point.
<<Where do we see there are two angels for every demon?>>
Rev 12:4
<<I suspect Michael the arcangle wasnt on vacation personally.>>
That is correct, I agree with a smile.

Athanasius
Apr 15th 2008, 12:37 AM
You mean removed... Like it was from Saul? And how David was worried it would be removed because of his sin? Although I guess that was the Spirit of God. . . I'm going to have to look into that now, I've always assumed them the same thin:hmm:

Naphal
Apr 15th 2008, 03:39 AM
Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

What part of this leads you to believe 1/3 of the stars of heaven became demons?

[QUOTE]
<<I suspect Michael the arcangle wasnt on vacation personally.>>
That is correct, I agree with a smile.



Cool, we agreed two out of three. Just this one left to figure out :)

Servant89
Apr 20th 2008, 11:27 PM
What part of Rev 12:4 leads you to believe that the 1/3 of the starts refers to demons or where angels that turned into demons? paraphrased

Rev 1:20 states that stars are an idiom for angels.

Rev 1:20 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Satan drew 1/3 of the stars after him and cast them to the earth, to me it means angels that followed satan, i.e., demons.

I will continue to believe that until through the scriptures I find a better explanation. But yes, I could be wrong. It is an interpretation based on Rev 1:20. Read Jude 1:6.

Shalom

Naphal
Apr 20th 2008, 11:40 PM
What part of Rev 12:4 leads you to believe that the 1/3 of the starts refers to demons or where angels that turned into demons? paraphrased

Rev 1:20 states that stars are an idiom for angels.

Rev 1:20 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Satan drew 1/3 of the stars after him and cast them to the earth, to me it means angels that followed satan, i.e., demons.

Stars certainly can be angels but where is it written that demons are angels?


Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Does this mean the 1/3 served Satan or does it mean something else?

There may be a clue in Daniel:


Daniel 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

If this is the same event then this appears to show Satan as their enemy not their leader.

Besides, Rev 12 shows that Satan still has his own angels in heaven after this 1/3 was cast to the earth:


Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Revelation 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I think there is a difference between

"his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth"


and other angels that were not cast by Satan but with Satan:



Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Servant89
Apr 21st 2008, 10:14 PM
<<Besides, Rev 12 shows that Satan still has his own angels in heaven after this 1/3 was cast to the earth:>>

A HEAVEN OF A GOOD POINT!!!

WELL TAKEN. IT IS SO HARD TO ARGUE WITH "IT IS WRITTEN".

THANKS

Naphal
Apr 21st 2008, 10:42 PM
<<Besides, Rev 12 shows that Satan still has his own angels in heaven after this 1/3 was cast to the earth:>>

A HEAVEN OF A GOOD POINT!!!

WELL TAKEN. IT IS SO HARD TO ARGUE WITH "IT IS WRITTEN".

THANKS

I like the enthusiasm! I have always loved Revelation for it's intricacy and details.