PDA

View Full Version : Distinction between Jews and the church



Pages : [1] 2 3

DIZZY
Apr 7th 2008, 10:28 AM
When Christ died on the cross at Calvary He died for all. In 1 Corinthians it tells us there is no distinction between the Jews, Greeks slave or free man.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

When we look at the end times in Revelation God has chosen 144,000 Jews and marked them with His mark, they are His chosen people. Not only that you have a remnant of Jews that God is caring for Himself in the wlderness. Why does God do this if we are all meant to be the same in the Lord?
Why are these people so special to God that He would personally take care of them in the wilderness?
What about the church none of them are being cared for by God?
Why is there a differnece in the way God treats these two groups when we are all meant to be the same in Christ?

David Taylor
Apr 7th 2008, 11:33 AM
When Christ died on the cross at Calvary He died for all. In 1 Corinthians it tells us there is no distinction between the Jews, Greeks slave or free man.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

When we look at the end times in Revelation God has chosen 144,000 Jews and marked them with His mark, they are His chosen people. Not only that you have a remnant of Jews that God is caring for Himself in the wlderness. Why does God do this if we are all meant to be the same in the Lord?
Why are these people so special to God that He would personally take care of them in the wilderness?
What about the church none of them are being cared for by God?
Why is there a differnece in the way God treats these two groups when we are all meant to be the same in Christ?

The 144K Jews are a historical pictured the Jews who came to faith first, before the Gentiles began to be included in the great NT harvest.

Rev 7 & 14 show a panoramic history of Salvation of all men, the Jew first, then the Gentile.

Remember, Rev 14 shows the 144K in heaven, redeemed from the earth, and they are the "firstfruits" of God, not "the lastfruits", as many modern-day teachers attempt to place them.

Seeing the 144k in their proper setting, removes the conflicted result your question generates, when the 144K are misplaced at the end of time.

ShirleyFord
Apr 7th 2008, 11:37 AM
When Christ died on the cross at Calvary He died for all. In 1 Corinthians it tells us there is no distinction between the Jews, Greeks slave or free man.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

When we look at the end times in Revelation God has chosen 144,000 Jews and marked them with His mark, they are His chosen people. Not only that you have a remnant of Jews that God is caring for Himself in the wlderness. Why does God do this if we are all meant to be the same in the Lord?
Why are these people so special to God that He would personally take care of them in the wilderness?
What about the church none of them are being cared for by God?
Why is there a differnece in the way God treats these two groups when we are all meant to be the same in Christ?

I don't believe that Rev 6 through Rev 19 covers only the last 7 yrs. leading up to the Second Coming, as many teach today.

If by "end times" you mean the "last days", the last days began with the First Coming of Christ in the 1st century.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

Jesus told John to write the book of Revelation and send it to the 7 Churches in existance at that time in the 1st century:

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Nowhere in Rev 7 or Rev 14 where the 144,000 are mentioned does it say that they were sealed after the Rapture of the Church during a seven-yr. GT.

The word "Jew" appears only 2 times in the entire book of Rev.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

There is no mention that "the woman" of Rev. 12 is made up of only Jews.


"Israel" appears in Revelation 3 times:

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Rev 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 21:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:


Shirley

timmyb
Apr 7th 2008, 12:47 PM
When Christ died on the cross at Calvary He died for all. In 1 Corinthians it tells us there is no distinction between the Jews, Greeks slave or free man.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

When we look at the end times in Revelation God has chosen 144,000 Jews and marked them with His mark, they are His chosen people. Not only that you have a remnant of Jews that God is caring for Himself in the wlderness. Why does God do this if we are all meant to be the same in the Lord?
Why are these people so special to God that He would personally take care of them in the wilderness?
What about the church none of them are being cared for by God?
Why is there a differnece in the way God treats these two groups when we are all meant to be the same in Christ?

There's only one reason for this. That he must still have a covenant with the people. That's the only way he would do this. He has a promise that all of Israel will be saved. Romans 11:26-27

timmyb
Apr 7th 2008, 12:52 PM
I don't believe that Rev 6 through Rev 19 covers only the last 7 yrs. leading up to the Second Coming, as many teach today.

If by "end times" you mean the "last days", the last days began with the First Coming of Christ in the 1st century.[.quote]

we are in the last of the last days though... and yes I believe that the Great Tribulation will last only 3 1/2 years.. but I'm not that well versed in the end times yet to prove it

[quote]Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

Jesus told John to write the book of Revelation and send it to the 7 Churches in existance at that time in the 1st century:

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Nowhere in Rev 7 or Rev 14 where the 144,000 are mentioned does it say that they were sealed after the Rapture of the Church during a seven-yr. GT.

The word "Jew" appears only 2 times in the entire book of Rev.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

There is no mention that "the woman" of Rev. 12 is made up of only Jews.

then who else could it be? the woman gave birth to the man child which has to be the Messiah... It can't be the church, because Christ started the church... So the woman in Rev has to the the Jewish people.



"Israel" appears in Revelation 3 times:

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Rev 7:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 21:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:


Shirley

Israel and the Jews are the same thing. God has not forgotten his people or else they wouldn't even be mentioned in the book of Revelation.

markedward
Apr 7th 2008, 03:22 PM
God only has one people: the faithful.

If I am a Gentile and I am faithful to Christ, I am added onto the Promise. If someone is a Jew and they deny Christ, they are removed from the Promise. If someone is a Gentile and they deny Christ, they never had the Promise. If someone is a Jew and they are faithful to Christ, they keep the Promise.

Being "Jewish" does not automatically give a person favor in God's eyes. Yes, they do have the Law and the prophets, but whether they simply have them or not doesn't matter if they still deny Christ.

The "covenant people" have always been and always will be the people who are faithful to God. At one point in time the faithful were nearly entirely descended from one ancestor, Abraham, but if those people are not faithful to God, then they have turned their backs on His covenant. Anyone who follows God is a part of the "covenant people." As said before, in Christ, there is neither "Jew nor Gentile."

The only difference between "Jews" and "Gentiles" is that the Jews have the Law already while the Gentiles have no law. In relation to Christ, being Jewish or Gentile is irrelevant. There isn't any favor shown to the Jews over the Gentiles (though they should come to the Truth more often than the Gentiles, since they had the prophets). But in terms of being called "God's people," He has only ever had one people, being those who were faithful to Him.

"The Church"
> Jews + Christ
> Gentiles + Christ

Others
> Jews - Christ
> Gentiles - Christ

John146
Apr 7th 2008, 03:37 PM
Israel and the Jews are the same thing. God has not forgotten his people or else they wouldn't even be mentioned in the book of Revelation.

Who are God's people according to scripture?

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

We see here that it has nothing to do with nationality. So what determines whether someone is one of God's people?

28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. - Romans 2:28-29

We see in the above passage that what matters is not one's nationality, but one's heart.

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Galatians 3:26-29

The children of the flesh (natural descendants of Israel) are not the children of God. Those with faith in Christ Jesus are the children of God. There is neither Jew nor Greek. Once again, scripture says that nationality has nothing to do with it. We, Jew and Gentile believers, are all ONE in Christ Jesus. God doesn't see two groups of His people as dispensationalists do. He only see one people of God and that includes all of those who belong to Christ, whether Jew or Gentile.


Eric

timmyb
Apr 7th 2008, 05:48 PM
God only has one people: the faithful.

If I am a Gentile and I am faithful to Christ, I am added onto the Promise. If someone is a Jew and they deny Christ, they are removed from the Promise. If someone is a Gentile and they deny Christ, they never had the Promise. If someone is a Jew and they are faithful to Christ, they keep the Promise.

Being "Jewish" does not automatically give a person favor in God's eyes. Yes, they do have the Law and the prophets, but whether they simply have them or not doesn't matter if they still deny Christ.

The "covenant people" have always been and always will be the people who are faithful to God. At one point in time the faithful were nearly entirely descended from one ancestor, Abraham, but if those people are not faithful to God, then they have turned their backs on His covenant. Anyone who follows God is a part of the "covenant people." As said before, in Christ, there is neither "Jew nor Gentile."

The only difference between "Jews" and "Gentiles" is that the Jews have the Law already while the Gentiles have no law. In relation to Christ, being Jewish or Gentile is irrelevant. There isn't any favor shown to the Jews over the Gentiles (though they should come to the Truth more often than the Gentiles, since they had the prophets). But in terms of being called "God's people," He has only ever had one people, being those who were faithful to Him.

"The Church"
> Jews + Christ
> Gentiles + Christ

Others
> Jews - Christ
> Gentiles - Christ

if people are so adamant about the Jews are cast off because they deny christ then why don't we put the Gentiles who deny Christ on the same coin.. if that's the case then why bother with getting anybody saved...

that's the message i'm getting from everybody as far as the Jews are concerned...

God gives us a NEW TESTAMENT mandate not to be arrogant toward the Jews because if they were cut off, then we might be too... that's the point i'm trying to make... Israel is the litmus test for a Christian's motive for coming to Christ... If you love the Lord you will love what he loves and the Lord loves Israel and has by no means cast them off and still says that they will all be saved at the end of the age...

timmyb
Apr 7th 2008, 05:49 PM
Who are God's people according to scripture?

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

We see here that it has nothing to do with nationality. So what determines whether someone is one of God's people?

28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. - Romans 2:28-29

We see in the above passage that what matters is not one's nationality, but one's heart.

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Galatians 3:26-29

The children of the flesh (natural descendants of Israel) are not the children of God. Those with faith in Christ Jesus are the children of God. There is neither Jew nor Greek. Once again, scripture says that nationality has nothing to do with it. We, Jew and Gentile believers, are all ONE in Christ Jesus. God doesn't see two groups of His people as dispensationalists do. He only see one people of God and that includes all of those who belong to Christ, whether Jew or Gentile.


Eric

aren't we commanded to pray for the Jews as a people? we are grafted in to the jewish root tree... and if we become arrogant toward those who were cut off we increase our chances of falling away when the antichrist comes and begins to focus on destroying ISRAEL as well as the church... if we don't embrace Israel as the beloved of God then we really endanger ourselves too...

Desire
Apr 7th 2008, 06:06 PM
The 70th week is for the Jew.

70 Weeks of years are determined for YOUR PEOPLE (The Jews) & for YOUR Holy City JERUSALEM.

When the rapture happens The Holy Spirit no longer will reconize the Christians left behind. He will reveal Jesus to the 144,000 male virgin Jews and dwell inside them. They will preach the gospel to the whole world.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come (Matthew 24:14).
The prophecy states that the gospel of the kingdom will be preached and then the end will come. Therefore, Christ cannot return until this message has been proclaimed in the whole world. However, this verse does not say who or how the gospel will be proclaimed to all nations. Some might imagine that it would be the Church but it's not gonna be the church, it's gonna be the 144,000 Jews sealed by the Holy Spirit who reach the whole world. The saints of the most high will be delivered into the hand of Anti-Christ for a times time & half of time 3 1/2 years. He will behead them for the witness of Jesus Christ Revelation 4:20.

timmyb
Apr 7th 2008, 07:03 PM
Seeing how I don't believe in the Pre tribulation rapture I must disagree with you Desire... but that's another subject... but I do see your point that the Tribulation is for the Church and for the Jew because we will have a common enemy: the Antichrist and we will be sought out and destroyed both with equal predjiduce

markedward
Apr 7th 2008, 07:06 PM
if people are so adamant about the Jews are cast off because they deny christ then why don't we put the Gentiles who deny Christ on the same coin?I did. Did you not read my whole post?


If I am a Gentile and I am faithful to Christ, I am added onto the Promise. If someone is a Jew and they deny Christ, they are removed from the Promise. If someone is a Gentile and they deny Christ, they never had the Promise. If someone is a Jew and they are faithful to Christ, they keep the Promise.


"The Church"
> Jews + Christ
> Gentiles + Christ

Others
> Jews - Christ
> Gentiles - ChristI am not "adamant that the Jews are cast off." I am adamant that the Jews and Gentiles who reject Christ are cast off, and the Gentiles and Jews who follow Him are added on.


Israel is the litmus test for a Christian's motive for coming to Christ...No, the "litmus test" for a Christian's motive for coming to Christ is to be faithful to God and to follow His will in advancing His kingdom to all nations, not just the Jews.


If you love the Lord you will love what he loves and the Lord loves IsraelThe Lord loves all people, not just Israel.

ShirleyFord
Apr 7th 2008, 07:17 PM
[quote=ShirleyFord;1597892]I don't believe that Rev 6 through Rev 19 covers only the last 7 yrs. leading up to the Second Coming, as many teach today.

If by "end times" you mean the "last days", the last days began with the First Coming of Christ in the 1st century.[.quote]

we are in the last of the last days though... and yes I believe that the Great Tribulation will last only 3 1/2 years.. but I'm not that well versed in the end times yet to prove it



then who else could it be? the woman gave birth to the man child which has to be the Messiah... It can't be the church, because Christ started the church... So the woman in Rev has to the the Jewish people.

God loves and protects those who love and believe on His Son. The Church existed long before the crucifixion of Christ and Penticost in Acts 2.

Jesus came forth from the loins of Abraham who certainly had faith in Him and loved Him:

Jn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.


Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.


Abraham was saved. He was a member of the Church.

Noah was saved. He likewise was a member of the Church. He found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

It is written of Abraham, (Gen 15:6) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Likewise, we read the same about Noah, (Heb 11:7) By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.





Israel and the Jews are the same thing. God has not forgotten his people or else they wouldn't even be mentioned in the book of Revelation.

The 144,000 children of Israel are certainly mentioned. And they are saved members of the Church as we see in Rev 14.

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.


They have the seal of their Father's name written in their forheads.

They are with Jesus.

They follow Jesus wherever He goes.

They are sanctified, set apart from the world.



Shirley

ShirleyFord
Apr 7th 2008, 07:25 PM
The 70th week is for the Jew.

70 Weeks of years are determined for YOUR PEOPLE (The Jews) & for YOUR Holy City JERUSALEM.


When the rapture happens The Holy Spirit no longer will reconize the Christians left behind. He will reveal Jesus to the 144,000 male virgin Jews and dwell inside them. They will preach the gospel to the whole world.
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come (Matthew 24:14).
The prophecy states that the gospel of the kingdom will be preached and then the end will come. Therefore, Christ cannot return until this message has been proclaimed in the whole world. However, this verse does not say who or how the gospel will be proclaimed to all nations. Some might imagine that it would be the Church but it's not gonna be the church, it's gonna be the 144,000 Jews sealed by the Holy Spirit who reach the whole world. The saints of the most high will be delivered into the hand of Anti-Christ for a times time & half of time 3 1/2 years. He will behead them for the witness of Jesus Christ Revelation 4:20.

Where do you find the 144,000 preaching after they are sealed? We find them in Revelation 7 receiving the mark of God. And then in Rev. 14, they are in heaven with Jesus. But nothing about them preaching to anyone.


Shirley

timmyb
Apr 7th 2008, 07:30 PM
my point markedward is that God still has unfulfilled promises to unsaved Israel... he promises that all Israel will be saved before the end and he fully expects the Gentile Church to pray for the Jews that we will truly become one new man in Christ... right now not even the Messianic Jews or the Gentile Church are truly one... we still distinguish between them... we aren't truly one even though both sides profess Yeshua..

David Taylor
Apr 7th 2008, 08:19 PM
if people are so adamant about the Jews are cast off because they deny christ then why don't we put the Gentiles who deny Christ on the same coin..

Good idea putting them on the same coin.

Remove the racial differences and dichotomies all together.

Those who are with Christ, are His faithful children.
Those who are not yet with Christ, are the Mission Field.

Race is irrelevant; for all who the the Lord will call; will come to Him; and not one of His will be cast off or lost.

John146
Apr 7th 2008, 09:03 PM
aren't we commanded to pray for the Jews as a people?

We are commanded to pray for everyone, even our enemies.

27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. - Luke 6:27-28


we are grafted in to the jewish root tree...


No, we are grafted into the Israel of God. Romans 9:6 says "they are not all Israel which are of Israel". Do you understand what that means?


and if we become arrogant toward those who were cut off we increase our chances of falling away when the antichrist comes and begins to focus on destroying ISRAEL as well as the church... if we don't embrace Israel as the beloved of God then we really endanger ourselves too...


Does John 3:16 say that God so loved the nation of Israel that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life? Or does it say "God so loved the world...."? No one here is casting off Israelites any more than we are casting off the Chinese or the Russians. We don't cast any of them off. We should pray for the salvation of all of them and preach the gospel to all of them. When it says all Israel will be saved it's speaking of those who are not Israelites according to the flesh but instead according to faith in Jesus Christ. Whether one is Jew or Gentile makes no difference.

John146
Apr 7th 2008, 09:10 PM
my point markedward is that God still has unfulfilled promises to unsaved Israel... he promises that all Israel will be saved before the end and he fully expects the Gentile Church to pray for the Jews that we will truly become one new man in Christ... right now not even the Messianic Jews or the Gentile Church are truly one... we still distinguish between them... we aren't truly one even though both sides profess Yeshua..

There is no Gentile Church. There is neither Jew nor Greek and we, Jew and Gentile believers, are all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28).

DIZZY
Apr 7th 2008, 11:46 PM
Where do you find the 144,000 preaching after they are sealed? We find them in Revelation 7 receiving the mark of God. And then in Rev. 14, they are in heaven with Jesus. But nothing about them preaching to anyone.


Shirley


Hi Shirley,

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the 144,000 are in heaven with Jesus.

Revelation 14:1
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.

Mount Zion is a hill just outside the walls of Jerusalem, so the 144,000 are not in heaven they are in Jerusalem with the Lord. The earthly Jerusalem because the spiritual Jerusalem does not exist until after the judgment and destruction of the old heavens and earth, that doesn't happen until Revelation 21.

Revelation 21:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&verse=1&version=31&context=verse)
[ The New Jerusalem ] Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

The word of God tells us that the Lord will come down out of heaven and do battle at Mount Zion.

Isaiah 31:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=31&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
This is what the LORD says to me: "As a lion growls, a great lion over his prey— and though a whole band of shepherds is called together against him, he is not frightened by their shouts or disturbed by their clamor— so the LORD Almighty will come down to do battle on Mount Zion and on its heights.

When the Lord is in Mount Zion the earthly Kingdom will be His and He will rule over the nations from that day.

Obadiah 1:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=38&chapter=1&verse=21&version=31&context=verse)
Deliverers will go up on Mount Zion to govern the mountains of Esau. And the kingdom will be the LORD's.

Micah 4:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=40&chapter=4&verse=7&version=31&context=verse)
I will make the lame a remnant, those driven away a strong nation. The LORD will rule over them in Mount Zion from that day and forever.

Nowhere in the Bible as I said does it say Mount Zion is the New Jerusalem in heaven, as I said it is a hill outside earthly Jerusalem and this is where we see the 144,000. These 144,000 on Mount Zion are very much living human agents that have no doubt been preaching the gospel message to the unsaved in and around Jerusalem before the Lord returned to Mount Zion. They have not received a heavenly body for they have not left the earth and they will reign with the Lord in the millennial Kingdom.

ShirleyFord
Apr 8th 2008, 12:41 AM
Hi Shirley,

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the 144,000 are in heaven with Jesus.

Revelation 14:1
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.

Mount Zion is a hill just outside the walls of Jerusalem, so the 144,000 are not in heaven they are in Jerusalem with the Lord. The earthly Jerusalem because the spiritual Jerusalem does not exist until after the judgment and destruction of the old heavens and earth, that doesn't happen until Revelation 21.

Revelation 21:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&verse=1&version=31&context=verse)
[ The New Jerusalem ] Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

The word of God tells us that the Lord will come down out of heaven and do battle at Mount Zion.

Isaiah 31:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=31&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
This is what the LORD says to me: "As a lion growls, a great lion over his prey— and though a whole band of shepherds is called together against him, he is not frightened by their shouts or disturbed by their clamor— so the LORD Almighty will come down to do battle on Mount Zion and on its heights.

When the Lord is in Mount Zion the earthly Kingdom will be His and He will rule over the nations from that day.

Obadiah 1:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=38&chapter=1&verse=21&version=31&context=verse)
Deliverers will go up on Mount Zion to govern the mountains of Esau. And the kingdom will be the LORD's.

Micah 4:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=40&chapter=4&verse=7&version=31&context=verse)
I will make the lame a remnant, those driven away a strong nation. The LORD will rule over them in Mount Zion from that day and forever.

Nowhere in the Bible as I said does it say Mount Zion is the New Jerusalem in heaven, as I said it is a hill outside earthly Jerusalem and this is where we see the 144,000. These 144,000 on Mount Zion are very much living human agents that have no doubt been preaching the gospel message to the unsaved in and around Jerusalem before the Lord returned to Mount Zion. They have not received a heavenly body for they have not left the earth and they will reign with the Lord in the millennial Kingdom.

Then you must have missed this one Dizzy:

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels

The writer of Hebrews makes it clear that this mount Sion is not the mount Sion of earthly Jerusalem:

Hebrews 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel.


The 144,000 were redeemed from the earth, (3) And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

They were redeemed from among men, (4) These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


Revelation 14 doesn't say that they have received their resurrected, immortal, incorruptible, glorified bodies at this time.

Jesus is in heaven now, (Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. (15) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. (16) Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The 144,000 are with Jesus in heavenly Jerusalem in heaven before the throne of God, (3) And they sung as it were a new song before the throne
(5) And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Heavenly mount Sion is the kingdom of Christ located now in heaven. And the very moment that we are born again, the Bible tells us in Col 1:13, Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


Just as the 144,000 and the multitude too numerous to count in Rev 7, heaven is now our home while we are physically alive on this earth, (Phil 3:20) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:


Shirley

The Village Idiot
Apr 8th 2008, 04:38 AM
We've been in the "last days" for the last 2000 years.


"God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son..." (He 1:1-2).

ShirleyFord
Apr 8th 2008, 10:45 AM
We've been in the "last days" for the last 2000 years.


Amen! The last days began at the First Coming of Christ and continues until His Second Coming.

The Bible says that Jesus returns on the last day of the last days:

Jn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Shirley

DIZZY
Apr 8th 2008, 12:46 PM
Amen! The last days began at the First Coming of Christ and continues until His Second Coming.

The Bible says that Jesus returns on the last day of the last days:

Jn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Shirley

Yes we are in the last days, but the end times haven't begun yet and that is what I am talking about here.
I will answer your previous post after a bit more studying. I need to study Hebrews 12 to get it in the right context.

DeafPosttrib
Apr 8th 2008, 12:58 PM
Dizzy,

How can you sure that the end times haven't yet begin?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

ShirleyFord
Apr 8th 2008, 03:00 PM
Yes we are in the last days, but the end times haven't begun yet and that is what I am talking about here.


Dizzy,

I haven't been able to find "end times" or "endtimes" in Scripture. But I did find "last times" and "last time".

1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


"last times" seems to have the same meaning as "last days" and "the last time" as "the last day".


Shirley

timmyb
Apr 8th 2008, 05:30 PM
Here is my point in a nutshell... Why did Paul say that the covenants are to the Jews post cross? We say those covenants are annulled at the cross. Apparently we are missing our purpose on the Jews and we need to find this out. This is the only mystery that has a consequence for getting wrong. This is one the church MUST find out and connect with or else we will increase our chances of falling away before the end.

We and Jews are on the same team it's just we have different roles and unity will only come to the body unless we embrace Jews and their role in God's redemptive plan and Jews embrace Gentiles and their role in God's redemptive plan. It's not that God loves the Jews more, but that they have a very important role in the salvation of the world and he hasn't forgotten them.

It's kinda like the quarterback who's on drugs who hasn't realized his potential. Paul was like that offensive lineman who would give up his place on the team if it would mean that quarterback realizing his potential and getting off drugs. We are to pray that the blinders would be removed from the eyes of the Jews and that they would become a part of God's redemptive plan in the earth.

timmyb
Apr 8th 2008, 05:34 PM
There is no Gentile Church. There is neither Jew nor Greek and we, Jew and Gentile believers, are all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28).

right now in this day and age that is really not the case... the mystery is how we are going to be grafted and truly become one new man in every sense of the word... heck, there are two thousand year old wounds to heal here... and the Jews are very offended at the very name of Jesus...

yeah in the Spirit we are one... but God intends for us to be one in every sense of the word where even the unbeliever only sees one...

race is still a very dividing issue... maybe not anymore in America... but in the Church at large around the world... is still very much is an issue

ShirleyFord
Apr 8th 2008, 06:28 PM
Here is my point in a nutshell... Why did Paul say that the covenants are to the Jews post cross? We say those covenants are annulled at the cross. Apparently we are missing our purpose on the Jews and we need to find this out. This is the only mystery that has a consequence for getting wrong. This is one the church MUST find out and connect with or else we will increase our chances of falling away before the end.

We and Jews are on the same team it's just we have different roles and unity will only come to the body unless we embrace Jews and their role in God's redemptive plan and Jews embrace Gentiles and their role in God's redemptive plan. It's not that God loves the Jews more, but that they have a very important role in the salvation of the world and he hasn't forgotten them.

It's kinda like the quarterback who's on drugs who hasn't realized his potential. Paul was like that offensive lineman who would give up his place on the team if it would mean that quarterback realizing his potential and getting off drugs. We are to pray that the blinders would be removed from the eyes of the Jews and that they would become a part of God's redemptive plan in the earth.

This is what Paul actually said in Romans 9:

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


There is only One Jew, according to the flesh, who had anything to do with our redemption: Jesus Christ, the Redeemer.


Shirley

ShirleyFord
Apr 8th 2008, 06:34 PM
I will answer your previous post after a bit more studying. I need to study Hebrews 12 to get it in the right context.

Take your time Dizzy.:)

And while you are studying you might also want to study Galatians 4:

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


Shirley

John146
Apr 8th 2008, 07:04 PM
Here is my point in a nutshell... Why did Paul say that the covenants are to the Jews post cross? We say those covenants are annulled at the cross. Apparently we are missing our purpose on the Jews and we need to find this out. This is the only mystery that has a consequence for getting wrong. This is one the church MUST find out and connect with or else we will increase our chances of falling away before the end.

We and Jews are on the same team it's just we have different roles and unity will only come to the body unless we embrace Jews and their role in God's redemptive plan and Jews embrace Gentiles and their role in God's redemptive plan. It's not that God loves the Jews more, but that they have a very important role in the salvation of the world and he hasn't forgotten them.

Where is your scriptural support that says the Jews have a different role to play than Gentiles in the church? What you're saying goes against what scripture repeatedly says about there being no difference between the Jew and Gentile.

7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. - Acts 15:7-9

28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. - Romans 3:28-30

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. - 1 Cor 12:12-13

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. - Romans 10:12

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. - Gal 3:28

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. - Col 3:11




It's kinda like the quarterback who's on drugs who hasn't realized his potential. Paul was like that offensive lineman who would give up his place on the team if it would mean that quarterback realizing his potential and getting off drugs. We are to pray that the blinders would be removed from the eyes of the Jews and that they would become a part of God's redemptive plan in the earth.We need to pray for the blinders to be removed from all people who are spiritually blind. Not just the Jews.

timmyb
Apr 8th 2008, 08:23 PM
especially the Jews... the covenants are still made to them... try to counter it all you want to... Paul didn't just say that only to contradict himself a few sentences later.

timmyb
Apr 8th 2008, 08:31 PM
Where is your scriptural support that says the Jews have a different role to play than Gentiles in the church? What you're saying goes against what scripture repeatedly says about there being no difference between the Jew and Gentile.

7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. - Acts 15:7-9

28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. - Romans 3:28-30

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. - 1 Cor 12:12-13

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. - Romans 10:12

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. - Gal 3:28

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. - Col 3:11


We need to pray for the blinders to be removed from all people who are spiritually blind. Not just the Jews.

read Romans 9-11... I'm quite tired of posting the same scripture to prove the same point

John146
Apr 8th 2008, 08:44 PM
read Romans 9-11... I'm quite tired of posting the same scripture to prove the same point

Romans 9-11 says that one is not automatically a child of God just by being a natural descendant of Israel(Rom 9:6). It teaches that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile (Rom 10:12). It also teaches that the Israelites were concluded in unbelief so that salvation could come to the Gentiles as well. And Jew and Gentile believers are all grafted into the same olive tree, which goes along with the teaching that we are all baptized into the body of Christ by the same Spirit. So, I don't think Romans 9-11 proves your point at all.

DIZZY
Apr 9th 2008, 09:27 AM
Dizzy,

I haven't been able to find "end times" or "endtimes" in Scripture. But I did find "last times" and "last time".

1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


"last times" seems to have the same meaning as "last days" and "the last time" as "the last day".


Shirley

Hi Shirley,

Okay there are no words that say end times in the bible, so I will use the bible term for which I have used the words end times, the tribulation or great tribulation. The tribulation does not cover from the time the Lord was here and crucified. The tribulation covers the beginning of the Lord taking back control of His creation and destroying all those that oppose Him and at the end of the tribulation He will reign from David's throne in Zion.

Speaking of Zion, you are right Hebrews speaks of the heavenly Zion, I do apologize.

Peter is saying to the Hebrews why would they want to go back to the law which is pictured as Mount Sinai, back to the judgment of God, fear, darkness, death through the law when you have already tasted the goodness of God's grace which Mount Zion is pictured as.

Mount Zion where God lives is a place of grace a place where you can come before God without fear because of your faith in Jesus Christ, a place where your name is written before time, a place of celebrating with angels so why would you turn back to the law which Abel himself had to follow.

After saying all that I still don't think that the 144,000 are in the heavenly Zion with the Lord so I think we are probably best to agree to disagree with that one.

But all in all I thank you for your help and I have an even better understanding of Hebrews 12:18-29 now. Every challenge we face whether it be from a non christian or a brother in Christ in your case a sister makes us each stronger in understanding the word of God and in our faith. Once again thank you

God Bless

ShirleyFord
Apr 9th 2008, 11:00 AM
Hi Shirley,

Okay there are no words that say end times in the bible, so I will use the bible term for which I have used the words end times, the tribulation or great tribulation. The tribulation does not cover from the time the Lord was here and crucified. The tribulation covers the beginning of the Lord taking back control of His creation and destroying all those that oppose Him and at the end of the tribulation He will reign from David's throne in Zion.

Thanks for clarifying that Dizzy. :)

But there is not a period of time in Revelation called "the great tribulation".

This is the Scripture that I was taught for many years that proved the 7 Yr. GT after the Rapture of the Church in Rev 4:

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

But many years later, I saw that this Scripture didn't say "the great tribulation" nor anything about a seven yr. period called "the great tribulation".

Jesus promised His followers, "In this world ye shall have tribulation" (John 16:33)

Now Rev does speak about a time just before the Second Coming of Christ when Satan pours out his last tribulation of wrath on the Church after he is loosed.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Jesus said after His victorious death and resurrection just before He ascended back into heaven, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." (Mt 28:18)

Are you saying that Jesus comes back at the beginning of the GT and remains here during its seven-yr. duration? That would be completely different from what I was taught as a pretrib/premiller. I was taught that Jesus wouldn't come back until after the GT.

Jesus does come back bodily to end Satan's tribulation of wrath on the Church and rescues His Church and pours out His wrath on all ungodliness, unrighteouness and the unsaved.




Speaking of Zion, you are right Hebrews speaks of the heavenly Zion, I do apologize.


No need to apologize Dizzy. I fully believe that when we learn something in the Scriptures that helps us, we should pass it on to others so it will likewise help them also.



Peter is saying to the Hebrews why would they want to go back to the law which is pictured as Mount Sinai, back to the judgment of God, fear, darkness, death through the law when you have already tasted the goodness of God's grace which Mount Zion is pictured as.

Mount Zion where God lives is a place of grace a place where you can come before God without fear because of your faith in Jesus Christ, a place where your name is written before time, a place of celebrating with angels so why would you turn back to the law which Abel himself had to follow.



After saying all that I still don't think that the 144,000 are in the heavenly Zion with the Lord so I think we are probably best to agree to disagree with that one.

What would cause you to think that Rev 14 refers to earthly Zion?


But all in all I thank you for your help and I have an even better understanding of Hebrews 12:18-29 now. Every challenge we face whether it be from a non christian or a brother in Christ in your case a sister makes us each stronger in understanding the word of God and in our faith. Once again thank you

God Bless

You are quite welcome sister. :)

I agree absolutely! I learn something from everyone here every day that helps me to better understand Scripture regardless of the differing endtime views.

2Witnesses
Apr 9th 2008, 11:20 AM
When Christ died on the cross at Calvary He died for all. In 1 Corinthians it tells us there is no distinction between the Jews, Greeks slave or free man.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

When we look at the end times in Revelation God has chosen 144,000 Jews and marked them with His mark, they are His chosen people. Not only that you have a remnant of Jews that God is caring for Himself in the wlderness. Why does God do this if we are all meant to be the same in the Lord?
Why are these people so special to God that He would personally take care of them in the wilderness?
What about the church none of them are being cared for by God?
Why is there a differnece in the way God treats these two groups when we are all meant to be the same in Christ?

Dizzy,

I think there is a past and a future to be associated with the 144000. I mean think about it! Why exactly 144000? I think it is a symbolic representation, like so many things in Revelation.

2Witnesses

Firstfruits
Apr 9th 2008, 11:40 AM
Thanks for clarifying that Dizzy. :)

But there is not a period of time in Revelation called "the great tribulation".

This is the Scripture that I was taught for many years that proved the 7 Yr. GT after the Rapture of the Church in Rev 4:

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

But many years later, I saw that this Scripture didn't say "the great tribulation" nor anything about a seven yr. period called "the great tribulation".

Jesus promised His followers, "In this world ye shall have tribulation" (John 16:33)

Now Rev does speak about a time just before the Second Coming of Christ when Satan pours out his last tribulation of wrath on the Church after he is loosed.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Jesus said after His victorious death and resurrection just before He ascended back into heaven, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." (Mt 28:18)

Are you saying that Jesus comes back at the beginning of the GT and remains here during its seven-yr. duration? That would be completely different from what I was taught as a pretrib/premiller. I was taught that Jesus wouldn't come back until after the GT.

Jesus does come back bodily to end Satan's tribulation of wrath on the Church and rescues His Church and pours out His wrath on all ungodliness, unrighteouness and the unsaved.




No need to apologize Dizzy. I fully believe that when we learn something in the Scriptures that helps us, we should pass it on to others so it will likewise help them also.





What would cause you to think that Rev 14 refers to earthly Zion?



You are quite welcome sister. :)

I agree absolutely! I learn something from everyone here every day that helps me to better understand Scripture regardless of the differing endtime views.

Hi Shirley,

with the understanding that there is no rapture in the scriptures, so when you say rapture are you speaking about the gathering of the sainsts that are alive and remain after the dead in Christ have been resurrected at the last day?

ShirleyFord
Apr 9th 2008, 12:11 PM
Hi Shirley,

with the understanding that there is no rapture in the scriptures, so when you say rapture are you speaking about the gathering of the sainsts that are alive and remain after the dead in Christ have been resurrected at the last day?

I was pointing out to Dizzy what I believed when I was pretrib, FF, when I mentioned "the rapture" in that post.

I believe that this Scripture occurs all at the same time when Jesus bodily returns as He left at His ascension:

1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Shirley

Firstfruits
Apr 9th 2008, 12:31 PM
I was pointing out to Dizzy what I believed when I was pretrib, FF, when I mentioned "the rapture" in that post.

I believe that this Scripture occurs all at the same time when Jesus bodily returns as He left at His ascension:

1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Shirley

Thanks Shirley.

timmyb
Apr 9th 2008, 03:59 PM
the fact is that Romans 9-11 is in the Bible for a reason and we cannot be ignorant of the mystery of Israel and the Gentile... that's the only mystery mentioned in the Bible that has a consequence for getting it wrong... Paul mentions in Romans 11 that he does not desire for us to be ignorant for if we are we can also be cut off as well... We cannot just scoff at the branch of Israel but pray that they will be grafted back in... There is a specific reason that Romans 9-11 are in the Bible, post cross, post everything... remember Paul wrote this letter... and we really need to see the real reason why this is in Scripture... these chapters are the most disputed regarding the interpretation... there is a mystery concerning Israel in these chapters that I don't even know and I really want to find this out.. because I don't think the "There is no Jew or Gentile but one in Yeshua" passage really applies here or else that verse could cancel out the whole passage of Romans 9-11 in the first place and all we're left with is the calvinistic interpretation of God choosing individuals to go to heaven or hell before they're born... there has to be a reason that ethnic unsaved Israel is even mentioned here... that's all I'm trying to say

and I want to apologize for seeming to make this a personal debate... God has really made Israel a very personal issue to my heart and I want to get this right. I really don't want to get all weird about Israel but I want to know how God relates to them in the Bible and I want to see their place in God's redemptive plan in the Bible... no doubt they are or else we cancel out Romans 9-11

jshears
Apr 9th 2008, 05:58 PM
People often speak of two peoples of God --the church and Israel. The two can't be directly compared. Israel is a NATION that God made promises to, some of which will be fulfilled in the future. The church is an ASSEMBLY of God's people, a spiritual organism. There has always been ONE people of God and ONE way of salvation, grace through faith. The church is composed of saved Jews and saved Gentiles. God's promises to the NATION Israel will be fulfilled by the believing remnant of the Jews in the church.

timmyb
Apr 10th 2008, 04:25 PM
Romans 9-11 says that one is not automatically a child of God just by being a natural descendant of Israel(Rom 9:6). It teaches that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile (Rom 10:12). It also teaches that the Israelites were concluded in unbelief so that salvation could come to the Gentiles as well. And Jew and Gentile believers are all grafted into the same olive tree, which goes along with the teaching that we are all baptized into the body of Christ by the same Spirit. So, I don't think Romans 9-11 proves your point at all.

the whole of my point is that the Church still has a biblical mandate to pray for the salvation of unsaved Israel, that God will fulfill his covenants to them and that we would see Israel saved... Romans 9-11 more than proves my point

David Taylor
Apr 10th 2008, 05:36 PM
the whole of my point is that the Church still has a biblical mandate to pray for the salvation of unsaved Israel, that God will fulfill his covenants to them and that we would see Israel saved... Romans 9-11 more than proves my point

The Church doesn't have a biblical mandate based on race or governmental, ethnical groupings.

The Church has a biblical mandate to pray for the salvation of all the unsaved; regardless of their race or government or ethnicity.

God is seeing Israelis saved, just as He is seeing Italians, Iraqis, and Irishmen saved. One at a time, as many as the Lord shall call.

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men"

Romans 1:5 "[Jesus Christ] By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations"




Romans 9-11 proves the Biblical point, that both the faithful natural branches and the faithful wild branches are being graffed in together, and both partaking of the fatness of the root of the tree together in Christ!

IPet2_9
Apr 10th 2008, 06:11 PM
My initial impression of this thread is that it was started on a flawed premise. Even dispensationalism does not teach of a distinction between Jews and the Church--it teaches a distinction between ISRAEL and the Church. I would rather see the thread's subject title reworded.

Obviously there is a distinction between Jews and the Church, no matter which camp you're in.

Romulus
Apr 10th 2008, 06:26 PM
People often speak of two peoples of God --the church and Israel. The two can't be directly compared. Israel is a NATION that God made promises to, some of which will be fulfilled in the future. The church is an ASSEMBLY of God's people, a spiritual organism. There has always been ONE people of God and ONE way of salvation, grace through faith. The church is composed of saved Jews and saved Gentiles. God's promises to the NATION Israel will be fulfilled by the believing remnant of the Jews in the church.

There was a remnant of Israel already in the 1st century. Do we forget the disciples and the other 1st century believers? They were all Jews, Israel who received the Gospel. Is there any reason not to believe that the remnant of Israel has already come?

The promise of a remnant was already fulfilled. The remnant of Israel became the firstfruits of the one tree in which then the believing Gentiles were grafted in afterward. The Gospel did come to Israel first with unbelieving Israel broken off in it's rejection of Christ and the rest of the world being saved through Israel.

IPet2_9
Apr 10th 2008, 06:30 PM
Israel is a NATION that God made promises to, some of which will be fulfilled in the future. The church is an ASSEMBLY of God's people, a spiritual organism.


I Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, A HOLY NATION, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Note again the bold.

timmyb
Apr 10th 2008, 09:20 PM
At the same time... the covenants and the promises STILL pertain to the ISRAELITES...... The Church is mandated to pray to have the Jews grafted in...

IPet2_9
Apr 10th 2008, 09:53 PM
At the same time... the covenants and the promises STILL pertain to the ISRAELITES......

That is simply not true.

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.

timmyb
Apr 10th 2008, 10:19 PM
the bible doesn't contradict itself...

1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen[a] according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen

they're Paul's countrymen according to the flesh which doesn't mean the people he's writing to who are believers aka the church... so that must mean that these are to ethnic Israel and they must still be a part of God's plan.. he hasn't cast them off from his redemptive plan in the earth...

IPet2_9
Apr 11th 2008, 03:07 AM
they're Paul's countrymen according to the flesh

That's kind of odd, considering Paul wasn't even from Israel. He was Saul of Tarsus. Roman by birth.

Grafted_In
Apr 11th 2008, 03:53 AM
That's kind of odd, considering Paul wasn't even from Israel. He was Saul of Tarsus. Roman by birth.

TimmyB is referring to paul being a Jew/Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin, but Im sure you knew that.

ShirleyFord
Apr 11th 2008, 11:07 AM
they're Paul's countrymen according to the flesh which doesn't mean the people he's writing to who are believers aka the church... so that must mean that these are to ethnic Israel and they must still be a part of God's plan.. he hasn't cast them off from his redemptive plan in the earth...

God hasn't cast anyone off from His redemption, Timmy. Until Christ returns, we are to pray for and preach the saving gospel of Christ to the lost of this world, regardless of their ethnic background, race, religion or geographical location.

In Romans 1-3, Paul says that he is in great heaviness and continual sorror for his Jewish blood brethren, his kinsmen, his blood relatives.

Romans 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Such great heaveness and sorrow that Paul says that he could wish that he was cut off from Christ if that would do anything to save his kin people. But he knows that he, an ethnic Israelite born from the tribe of Benjamin, nor any other member of Christ's Church could do anything to save one unsaved ethnic Jew or anyone else.

When we get saved, we naturally want our family members, our kinsmen, and everyone we know to come to know the Lord as well. We pray more for them and share the gospel more with them than to anyone else.
It was not different for those non-Jewish Gentiles when one of them heard the gospel of Jesus Christ and were saved. And remember that the Gentiles didn't have the gospel of Christ preached to them as did the Israelites through the giving of the law, the covenants etc. Even though many Israelites heard the gospel believed it and were saved before and after Jesus came the 1st time, many didn't. These unsaved Jews who rejected the gospel even up to his day were those that Paul was so concerned about.

Whey would Paul be so concerned and troubled about his unsaved kinsmen if they were going to automatically be redeemed?


Shirley

timmyb
Apr 11th 2008, 12:49 PM
God hasn't cast anyone off from His redemption, Timmy. Until Christ returns, we are to pray for and preach the saving gospel of Christ to the lost of this world, regardless of their ethnic background, race, religion or geographical location.

In Romans 1-3, Paul says that he is in great heaviness and continual sorror for his Jewish blood brethren, his kinsmen, his blood relatives.

Romans 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Such great heaveness and sorrow that Paul says that he could wish that he was cut off from Christ if that would do anything to save his kin people. But he knows that he, an ethnic Israelite born from the tribe of Benjamin, nor any other member of Christ's Church could do anything to save one unsaved ethnic Jew or anyone else.

When we get saved, we naturally want our family members, our kinsmen, and everyone we know to come to know the Lord as well. We pray more for them and share the gospel more with them than to anyone else.
It was not different for those non-Jewish Gentiles when one of them heard the gospel of Jesus Christ and were saved. And remember that the Gentiles didn't have the gospel of Christ preached to them as did the Israelites through the giving of the law, the covenants etc. Even though many Israelites heard the gospel believed it and were saved before and after Jesus came the 1st time, many didn't. These unsaved Jews who rejected the gospel even up to his day were those that Paul was so concerned about.

Whey would Paul be so concerned and troubled about his unsaved kinsmen if they were going to automatically be redeemed?


Shirley

I believe that the sorrow in Paul's heart was so much more than ethnic sentimentality. I am not going to wish myself accursed on behalf of my fellow American because I'm an American. Paul tapped into something here because I think he knew the issue of Israel isn't just about Israel themselves. There is a bigger issue than the one we see with our eyes and that's a mystery we as Gentiles need to discover and embrace.

ShirleyFord
Apr 11th 2008, 01:54 PM
I believe that the sorrow in Paul's heart was so much more than ethnic sentimentality. I am not going to wish myself accursed on behalf of my fellow American because I'm an American.

Timmy,

All Americans living in the nation of America today are not your brethren, kinsman, of the same ethnic group. As you know, many ethnic groups are represented in America. But whatever our ethnicity it doesn't determine if we are Americans or not. Our American citizenship and/or residency inside the borders of America does.

You said yourself:

Originally Posted by timmyb http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1602268#post1602268)
they're Paul's countrymen according to the flesh which doesn't mean the people he's writing to who are believers aka the church...


Paul couldn't have been speaking of just those Jews dwelling in the nation of Israel at the time. non-Jews also lived within the borders of the nation of Israel during the 1st century. Or that true Jews according to the flesh lived only in the nation of Israel.

Paul wrote the letter of Romans to the Church at Rome. We find Jews, Paul's ethnic kinsmen, residing in Rome while Paul was in prison there:

Acts 28:16 And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him. 17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.


As we read through the book of Acts, we find Jews in every city of every nation where Paul traveled.

Jewish believers were added to the Church as soon as they were saved. Paul was certainly a Jew. And when God saved him, he was added to the Church.


Shirley

IBWatching
Apr 11th 2008, 04:10 PM
There's only one reason for this. That he must still have a covenant with the people. That's the only way he would do this. He has a promise that all of Israel will be saved. Romans 11:26-27

Or...He has promised a New Covenant with Israel after those days... ;)

David Taylor
Apr 11th 2008, 04:19 PM
At the same time... the covenants and the promises STILL pertain to the ISRAELITES

How is a modern Israelite define?

a human who was born within the borders of modern-day Israel?
a human who lives in NYC, but follows the religion of Judaism?
a human who is an Israeli citizen, but reject Judaism?
a human who is not an Israeli citizen, but follows Judaism?
a human whose mother and father were born and lived in Israel?
a human whose mother and father were born in China but practiced Judaism?
a human whose mother was a Muslim, but whose Father practiced Judaism?
a human who is a citizen of Spain, who was born in Iran, who practices Hinduism, and who has duel citizenship in Israel?
An Aboriginese who has lived in the Australian bush all their lives, and whose family roots are traced back century upon century in Australia, who meets a Jewish Rabbi and converts to Judaism?How many other variations can there be?

What is a modern Jew then? What is a modern Israelite?

IPet2_9
Apr 11th 2008, 04:25 PM
I'm just going to post the rest of Galatians 3. The old covenant is--and always has been--with the SPIRITUAL descendants of Abraham, through faith.


Galatians 3
1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? 6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9 So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. 10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. 15 Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. 19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. 26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

timmyb
Apr 11th 2008, 05:54 PM
I'm just going to post the rest of Galatians 3. The old covenant is--and always has been--with the SPIRITUAL descendants of Abraham, through faith.


Galatians 3
1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? 6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9 So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. 10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. 15 Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. 19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. 26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

then why is Paul's heart burning for them to be saved and then say it's to them pertain the promises and the covenants.. there is no change of subject.. he is still talking about unsaved Israel... the Jews his countrymen according to the flesh meaning they are not saved, they are JEWS, and he is talking to Gentiles and he could have easily solved alot of the problems in Rome if he had told them what you guys believe... he wouldn't have wasted his time writing Romans 9-11 if that were the case...

IPet2_9
Apr 11th 2008, 06:32 PM
. the Jews his countrymen according to the flesh meaning they are not saved, they are JEWS,

THEY ARE NOT. You are not reading the Scripture. It says in plain language that the children of Abraham according to the promise are--and always have been--by faith. If Galatians 3 isn't already clear enough, here is Philippians 3 as well. I don't know how it could be any clearer; but you are going to have to read it.


Philippians 3:2 Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. 3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4 though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee;

timmyb
Apr 11th 2008, 06:42 PM
THEY ARE NOT. You are not reading the Scripture. It says in plain language that the children of Abraham according to the promise are--and always have been--by faith. If Galatians 3 isn't already clear enough, here is Philippians 3 as well. I don't know how it could be any clearer; but you are going to have to read it.


Philippians 3:2 Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. 3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4 though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee;

dude you seriously need to chill... I am reading Romans 9 line by line, no add ons or anything. There has to be a reason it says that without contradicting any other passage in scripture.

1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%209&version=50#fen-NKJV-28153a)] according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen

his heart would not have been breaking over them if they were saved and part of the church.. I am reading the Scripture for what it says and I am not contradicting any part of Scripture when I say that God still has a plan for ethnic Israel... This is more than ethnic sentimentality.. this is the heart of God for a NATION an unsaved nation that he desires to turn to him. Paul is telling us that we need to agree with God's heart for them if we are to understand this mystery. That's why it's a mystery. It offends us Gentiles that God would still have a plan for a nation that rejected him. But who are we to argue against him?

Mograce2U
Apr 11th 2008, 07:31 PM
dude you seriously need to chill... I am reading Romans 9 line by line, no add ons or anything. There has to be a reason it says that without contradicting any other passage in scripture.

1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%209&version=50#fen-NKJV-28153a)] according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen

his heart would not have been breaking over them if they were saved and part of the church.. I am reading the Scripture for what it says and I am not contradicting any part of Scripture when I say that God still has a plan for ethnic Israel... This is more than ethnic sentimentality.. this is the heart of God for a NATION an unsaved nation that he desires to turn to him. Paul is telling us that we need to agree with God's heart for them if we are to understand this mystery. That's why it's a mystery. It offends us Gentiles that God would still have a plan for a nation that rejected him. But who are we to argue against him?
Paul is writing Romans shortly before his own death. Before the temple and the city was destroyed. It is clear his sense is of an era which would soon come to its end. To place his zeal for the salvation of Israel's remnant off into the far future takes a huge jump over all the Israelites who have lived between those times that have been gathered into the church by the gospel, to put the focus of God and His purpose upon those who have been cut off from those very blessings and promises Paul speaks of.

The fact is that no one of Jewish descent who denied Christ in all that time, ever had the promise of God or the blessing of Abraham - eternal life. They were not part of the tree whose Root is Christ. And because of that they have died in their sins. There is no other sacrifice that has been available to them since the cross. The absence of the temple proves that. Yet these cut off ones hope to build another temple. To what purpose does that serve God who gave His only begotten Son for their salvation already?

I know the dispensationalist hopes that God will save all the nation of Israel before the end comes and their fate is sealed in the lake of fire. But what does that say about all those who had only the option of faith in Christ to avoid that fate yet rejected it nonetheless? Faith in Christ is the plan of God which He has made available to Jew and Gentile alike. There is no other name given under heaven whereby men must be saved. Which means there is no other plan in place.

Paul is speaking to a last generation that had put their hope in the arrival of Messiah. These needed to see Jesus as the Christ if they were to be saved before Judaism became the dead religion that it is today - without hope or salvation. The judgment that fell upon Jerusalem and destroyed the temple was to show them that Jesus was their Messiah and the chosen ones of the Lord were His disciples. No one has been saved since that time by following Judaism - nor can they be without a temple. That way was closed once and for all.

The way of salvation has been made known to them, and no one is going to come unto the Father in any other way than by faith in the Son slain for the sins of the world. This was the hope of Judaism in Paul's day. It is not the hope of Judaism today. Both Abraham and Moses looked forward to Jesus' day. But apostate Israel today is looking for another to come because they do not have the faith of Abraham that is required to be a true Israelite. So while they wave the star of David over their nation, it is in futility since the Son of David has come and Christ is not their banner nor their Hope.

timmyb
Apr 11th 2008, 07:43 PM
I'm not trying to argue the method of the Jews salvation... I'm trying to make a point that God still has a plan for all of the Jewish people and that there are promises made in the Old Testament that have yet to be fulfilled to them... And we as Gentile Believers in Yeshua have an obligation to partner with God and his desires to fulfill his promises to the Jewish people... the ultimate one is that all Israel will be saved... and that we would be grafted and truly become one new man in Yeshua

quiet dove
Apr 11th 2008, 07:48 PM
It offends us Gentiles that God would still have a plan for a nation that rejected him. But who are we to argue against him?

AMEN! !

John146
Apr 11th 2008, 08:08 PM
I'm not trying to argue the method of the Jews salvation... I'm trying to make a point that God still has a plan for all of the Jewish people and that there are promises made in the Old Testament that have yet to be fulfilled to them... And we as Gentile Believers in Yeshua have an obligation to partner with God and his desires to fulfill his promises to the Jewish people... the ultimate one is that all Israel will be saved... and that we would be grafted and truly become one new man in Yeshua

So, you believe everyone in Israel one day will be saved? Will repentance and faith no longer be required? Is it reasonable to think that all Israelites will one day repent and put their faith in Christ? Seems like the only way that would be possible is if God made it happen because right now a very small percentage of Jews or Israelites believe in Christ. Why would God do that for Israel and not China or Afghanistan or any other nation?

Scripture repeatedly says that God is not a respecter of persons (does not show favoritism based on nationality, social status, economic status, etc.). Dispensationalism turns Him into a respecter of persons because He is (supposedly) going to go out of His way to save all those in the nation of Israel while leaving all other nations (mostly) condemned. Dispensationalism says that for Israelites, repentance and faith are not the deciding factors in salvation, but rather one's nationality is the deciding factor.

All this is caused by what I believe is a misinterpretation of Romans 11:26-27, which is not a new prophecy given by Paul, as dispensationalists seem to think, but it is Paul quoting an OT prophecy (Isaiah 59:20-21) being fulfilled by Christ. The Deliverer already came to turn away Jacob (Israel) from their sins. Paul explained to us who the Israel of God is in Romans 9:6-8 saying that they are not all Israel (the Israel of God) which are of Israel (descendants of the nation of Israel). One is only in the Israel of God if they belong to Christ. He indicated in Romans 9:6-8 that being an Israelite descendant means nothing when it comes to being in the Israel of God. All Israel is and will be saved because all Israel is all those who belong to Christ.

quiet dove
Apr 11th 2008, 08:25 PM
Why would God do that for Israel and not China or Afghanistan or any other nation?Because God called Israel. And as was already said, who are we to question Almighty God. He provided for all of man kind to be redeemed (including China and Afghanistan). Whatever else He does or has decided to do is really not up to us to question.


Dispensationalism turns Him into a respecter of persons because He is (supposedly) going to go out of His way to save all those in the nation of IsraelDispensationalism just recognizes that He called a particular people and gave them a particular purpose. It is not favoritism, it is responsibility/accountability. God has determined that He will see it through and He will.


go out of His way to save all those in the nation of Israel while leaving all other nations (mostly) condemnedI would say he went the same out of the way for all men, since, as you have said, He paid for the sins of all men and any who believe will be saved and repenting and believing are required by all in order to be in Christ, including anyone Jewish.

John146
Apr 11th 2008, 08:47 PM
Because God called Israel. And as was already said, who are we to question Almighty God. He provided for all of man kind to be redeemed (including China and Afghanistan). Whatever else He does or has decided to do is really not up to us to question.

Dispensationalism just recognizes that He called a particular people and gave them a particular purpose. It is not favoritism, it is responsibility/accountability. God has determined that He will see it through and He will.

I'm speaking in terms of salvation, though. Why would God show favoritism as it relates to salvation? I'm not talking in terms of a purpose to accomplish a certain thing He wants accomplished. Dispensationalism says that everyone in the nation of Israel will be saved one day and that God will ensure this. So my question is, is it reasonable to think that every single person in Israel will one day repent and put their faith in Christ?



I would say he went the same out of the way for all men, since, as you have said, He paid for the sins of all men and any who believe will be saved and repenting and believing are required by all in order to be in Christ, including anyone Jewish.

Right, so why is there this idea that God will come and save all of Israel while leaving the rest of the nations (mostly) condemned in their sins?

David Taylor
Apr 11th 2008, 09:31 PM
Dispensationalism just recognizes that He called a particular people and gave them a particular purpose. It is not favoritism, it is responsibility/accountability. God has determined that He will see it through and He will.

And non-Dispensationalism (whatever that's called), also recognizes this.

The only difference being, that this special, set-apart particular purpose ended at the cross. Thereafter, the way was made for all human-beings, regardless of race, to have a special, set-apart particular purpose from God.

God has already seen it through.....He saw it up the dusty hill called Calvary, and He declared it complete with the words, 'It Is Finished'.

Dispensationalism just doesn't want to accept what has already occurred as being sufficient. Non-Dispensationalism sees what Christ accomplished as completely sufficient in fulfilling everything in-Christ that was out-standing; so that there would no longer be a people set-apart by race....but forevermore, only a people set-apart by faith.

quiet dove
Apr 11th 2008, 11:08 PM
Dispensationalism just doesn't want to accept what has already occurred as being sufficient. Non-Dispensationalism sees what Christ accomplished as completely sufficient in fulfilling everything in-Christ that was out-standing; so that there would no longer be a people set-apart by race....but forevermore, only a people set-apart by faith.

David, dispensationalism certainly does understand that the Cross was/is sufficient. Obviously, dispensationalism teaches that through that same cross, all Israel will be saved and fulfill her destiny. Through the Cross, Christ finished work on that same Cross, Israel, during the Millennial reign of Christ will fullfil her destiny, just as the resurrected saints will, when they rule the earth with Christ.

wpm
Apr 11th 2008, 11:21 PM
Because God called Israel. And as was already said, who are we to question Almighty God. He provided for all of man kind to be redeemed (including China and Afghanistan). Whatever else He does or has decided to do is really not up to us to question.



The vast mass of the Israeli people reject Christ and therefore God rejects them. The religious Jewish leaders still view Him as a false prophet. They are no different from their Christ-rejecting forefathers. Christ is the only hope for the Jew like He is the only hope for the Gentile. The Church is the only vehicle that houses the redeemed. Birthright, colour, age or birthday count for nothing in this spiritual organism. Galatians 3:28-29 says, “there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: Forye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

Either we are found in Christ, and are therefore heirs of God according to the promise, or else we belong to the devil and are damned. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile; all who believe in Him are one. The Israel of God is not therefore restricted to the physical earthly nation of Israel or any other physical nation, as of the flesh, but rather to the spiritual seed of Abraham – the spiritual Israel that is born from above. Paul the Apostles said to the largely Gentile church in Rome, in Romans 4:13-15, “For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world (the nations), was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law (natural Israel) be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed.”

Paul keeps pressing home this point in his writings that the true seed of Abraham is spiritual. It is a people of all nations that have entered into the household of faith. He continues, “not to that only which is of the law (namely natural Israel), but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all(Jew and Gentile believers alike), as it is written, (in Genesis 17:5) I have made thee a father of many nations, before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not (the Gentiles) as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, so shall thy seed be” (Romans 4:16-18).

God called and ordained a Gentile people who were once hopelessly outside of grace and of hope, through the work of the cross and through faith, to come into an intimate and legitimate relationship with God and enter the spiritual lineage of Abraham – the father of faith. That divine favour that was once largely restricted to those of the spiritual Israel within natural Israel has now been graciously widened out to include the spiritual Israel “of many nations.” Romans 4:1-3 says,“What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.”

Jesus encountered the hostility of the religious Jews many times during His earthly ministry. They were by and large a people that had “a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof” (2 Timothy 3:5). Many times He presented them with the simple Gospel, and many times they rejected it. They were a people that had turned their back on the living God. Jesus declared to “the Jews” in John 10:27, after they questioned His deity, “ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”

These religious zealots did not belong to the Israel of God – true Israel, they belonged to the natural seed of Abraham, not the spiritual seed. The belief that God has one plan of salvation for the ethnic relatives of Abraham and another for the Gentile people of the world is both mistaken and in conflict with clear and repeated Scripture. There is only one life-changing Gospel, containing one set of standards and requirements – it is open equally to both Jew and Gentile.

Paul

ross3421
Apr 12th 2008, 12:08 AM
I'm not trying to argue the method of the Jews salvation... I'm trying to make a point that God still has a plan for all of the Jewish people and that there are promises made in the Old Testament that have yet to be fulfilled to them... And we as Gentile Believers in Yeshua have an obligation to partner with God and his desires to fulfill his promises to the Jewish people... the ultimate one is that all Israel will be saved... and that we would be grafted and truly become one new man in Yeshua

Correct. Note that when scriptures states that "ALL Israel will be saved" it is meaning that a remnant of all 12 tribes will be preserved. All is meant by all 12 tribes not everyone of Israel.

wpm
Apr 12th 2008, 12:37 AM
David, dispensationalism certainly does understand that the Cross was/is sufficient. Obviously, dispensationalism teaches that through that same cross, all Israel will be saved and fulfill her destiny. Through the Cross, Christ finished work on that same Cross, Israel, during the Millennial reign of Christ will fullfil her destiny, just as the resurrected saints will, when they rule the earth with Christ.

What if Israel had accepted Jesus as king? Would Calvary have been rendered obsolete?

Paul

quiet dove
Apr 12th 2008, 02:06 AM
What if Israel had accepted Jesus as king? Would Calvary have been rendered obsolete?

Paul

You mean if they had accepted Him and He had not died on the Cross? Or you mean upon accepted Him after resurrection?

quiet dove
Apr 12th 2008, 02:26 AM
The vast mass of the Israeli people reject Christ and therefore God rejects them. The religious Jewish leaders still view Him as a false prophet. They are no different from their Christ-rejecting forefathers. Christ is the only hope for the Jew like He is the only hope for the Gentile. The Church is the only vehicle that houses the redeemed. Birthright, colour, age or birthday count for nothing in this spiritual organism.

Either we are found in Christ, and are therefore heirs of God according to the promise, or else we belong to the devil and are damned. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile; all who believe in Him are one.

These religious zealots did not belong to the Israel of God – true Israel, they belonged to the natural seed of Abraham, not the spiritual seed. The belief that God has one plan of salvation for the ethnic relatives of Abraham and another for the Gentile people of the world is both mistaken and in conflict with clear and repeated Scripture. There is only one life-changing Gospel, containing one set of standards and requirements – it is open equally to both Jew and Gentile

I agree he is the only hope for any man, Jew or Gentile. I have not said nor have I ever said they would be saved 'by' their Jewishness or that their was another 'plan of salvation for ethnic relatives of Abraham'. I am saying that those Jews who survive the GT and are saved, through Christ, (the same way we are saved) will then, during the Millennial reign of Christ take their place as priests and live and worship and fulfill what prophecy speaks of Israel.

wpm
Apr 12th 2008, 02:54 AM
You mean if they had accepted Him and He had not died on the Cross? Or you mean upon accepted Him after resurrection?

Before the cross.

Paul

wpm
Apr 12th 2008, 02:59 AM
QD

You have God favouring Jews above all other nationalities today (when that choice position was done away with the cross) simply because of their circumcision. This is not the case. Physical status means absolutely nothing to Christ, it is an inward attitude of heart that matters.

Your supposition about men surviving the rapture is a moot point in my view becaue the wicked are all destroyed at the Lord's return.

Can you give me Scripture that shows the unsaved surviving the Second Advent?

Paul

quiet dove
Apr 12th 2008, 03:12 AM
Before the cross.

Paul

I have no idea of what would have happened, and no way of knowing.

quiet dove
Apr 12th 2008, 03:45 AM
QD

You have God favouring Jews above all other nationalities today (when that choice position was done away with the cross) simply because of their circumcision.
I am just going by what I believe scripture says in regards to prophecies about Israel, prophecies that have not come to pass yet. It has nothing to do with 'me' having anyone in a choice position.

Zec 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.

This type mourning did not happen at Christ First Advent. As far as who survives not being saved, couldn't say, but this is what it says about Israel. This does not say however that Israel was not already saved, it just says they will mourn the one whom they pierced.

The description of the mourning spoken of above "Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. "
2Ch 35:24 His servants therefore took him out of that chariot and put him in the second chariot that he had, and they brought him to Jerusalem. So he died, and was buried in one of the tombs of his fathers. And all Judah and Jerusalem mourned for Josiah.
2Ki 23:29 In his days Pharaoh Necho king of Egypt went to the aid of the king of Assyria, to the River Euphrates; and King Josiah went against him. And Pharaoh Necho killed him at Megiddo when he confronted him. 30 Then his servants moved his body in a chariot from Megiddo, brought him to Jerusalem, and buried him

And it is clear there are survivors, I personally do not think anyone who has rejected Christ and worshiped the Beast will be going into the Millennial Kingdom of Christ as Revelations seems to make it pretty clear that those who worship the Beast are sealing their eternity. To me it is clear that their are both Jew and Gentile survivors of the GT but I am not one who believes that the unjust will be the ones going into the Millennial Kingdom.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.


Can you give me Scripture that shows the unsaved surviving the Second Advent?
Your supposition about men surviving the rapture is a moot point in my view becaue the wicked are all destroyed at the Lord's return.I have not said that anyone unsaved survives the Second Advent and goes into the Millennial Kingdom. I said that all Israel would be saved.

Isa 45:25 In the LORD all the descendants of Israel Shall be justified, and shall glory.' "

Gentiles are not descendents of Israel, we are grafted into Israel.

But on the other hand, if God has purposed for even those Jews who have not accepted Christ until they see Him return at His Second Advent should be saved, thats is His business. Not mine. He has done all he can do to provide for every Gentile to be saved. It is not for me to question Him. Basically I am saying I don't know if the acceptance of Christ comes before or after they see Him coming at His Second Advent, maybe some of both, I don't know.

timmyb
Apr 12th 2008, 05:15 PM
There is a section of Zechariah 14 that says that 2/3 of Jews will be cut off and die but the 1/3 that remain will be saved... that definitely has not happened yet...

I truly believe that the Antichrist will have a hand in seeing the 2/3 off to their deaths... considering that he will be eradicating the Jews...

Keep in mind Matthew 23:37-39... Jerusalem has to call Jesus back to rule and reign... That's the repentance part of the story....

quiet dove
Apr 12th 2008, 06:20 PM
There is a section of Zechariah 14 that says that 2/3 of Jews will be cut off and die but the 1/3 that remain will be saved... that definitely has not happened yet...

I truly believe that the Antichrist will have a hand in seeing the 2/3 off to their deaths... considering that he will be eradicating the Jews...

Keep in mind Matthew 23:37-39... Jerusalem has to call Jesus back to rule and reign... That's the repentance part of the story....

I am going to have to disagree with you on this, I think this verse describes what will happen when He returns but not in regards to determining when He will return. It is my belief that He has determined this, and no action on the part of the Church or Israel is the determining factor of His return.

timmyb
Apr 12th 2008, 06:24 PM
Who else was Jesus talking to then? You will not see me again until you say Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord... He was talking to Jerusalem.

quiet dove
Apr 12th 2008, 06:50 PM
Who else was Jesus talking to then? You will not see me again until you say Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord... He was talking to Jerusalem.

I am not disagreeing with who he was talking to, or who will say it; but that they would not see Him again until His Second Advent and at that time they would say...... The only thing I disagreed with is that them saying it causes His return, I believe it is the other way around, His return causes them to say this.
:)

timmyb
Apr 12th 2008, 06:53 PM
He specifically said that he wasn't coming back until the leadership in Jerusalem invite him back to be their king.... But, that won't happen until the Gentile church is in walking in such victory over Satan that it will provoke them to jealousy... That's our role in this whole thing...

quiet dove
Apr 12th 2008, 08:12 PM
He specifically said that he wasn't coming back until the leadership in Jerusalem invite him back to be their king.... But, that won't happen until the Gentile church is in walking in such victory over Satan that it will provoke them to jealousy... That's our role in this whole thing...

If we are waiting for the Church of the future to be better or stronger than the Church of the past, we are going to have long wait. There is no reason to think that believers of past are any less or the Church as a whole was any less in the past than it is now.

To put any dependence of the Lords return on the state of the Church or what Israel will do put focus on man, not Jesus, and that in itself is reason enough for me to disagree, and I disagree that that is what the verses you quoted teach. But as I said before, Israel will not see Him until His Second Advent at which time they will say 'BLESSED is HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!' And they will recognize Him whom they pierced Zec 12:10. IMHO

timmyb
Apr 12th 2008, 08:51 PM
If we are waiting for the Church of the future to be better or stronger than the Church of the past, we are going to have long wait. There is no reason to think that believers of past are any less or the Church as a whole was any less in the past than it is now.

To put any dependence of the Lords return on the state of the Church or what Israel will do put focus on man, not Jesus, and that in itself is reason enough for me to disagree, and I disagree that that is what the verses you quoted teach. But as I said before, Israel will not see Him until His Second Advent at which time they will say 'BLESSED is HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!' And they will recognize Him whom they pierced Zec 12:10. IMHO

This is why I believe that Satan wants to eradicate all of the Jews.. Because.. if there are no Jews to invite Jesus back, then Jesus is bound by his word not to do so until he comes back and if that doesn't happen then satan doesn't go to prison... It's a futile plan but It's the closest thing satan has...

He does hinge his coming on that word. The Jews must invite him back for him to come.

John146
Apr 14th 2008, 07:54 PM
I said that all Israel would be saved.

Isa 45:25 In the LORD all the descendants of Israel Shall be justified, and shall glory.' "

Gentiles are not descendents of Israel, we are grafted into Israel.

Are you saying you believe Gentiles are grafted into the nation of Israel or into the Israel of God?

quiet dove
Apr 14th 2008, 08:39 PM
Are you saying you believe Gentiles are grafted into the nation of Israel or into the Israel of God?

The true Israel.

Abraham was true Israel. We are grafted in with true Israel, those who believe God and His Redeemer.

The passage I quoted should be taken in its OT context as far a descendents goes. They are descendents of Jacob, whether they are broken off or grafted in is determined by whether they accept Christ or not.

John146
Apr 14th 2008, 09:03 PM
The true Israel.

Abraham was true Israel. We are grafted in with true Israel, those who believe God and His Redeemer.

The passage I quoted should be taken in its OT context as far a descendents goes. They are descendents of Jacob, whether they are broken off or grafted in is determined by whether they accept Christ or not.

Thank you for the response. So, with that in mind, why can't the references to Israel that you brought up from Romans 11:26 and Isaiah 45:25 be referring to true Israel?



I said that all Israel would be saved.

Isa 45:25 In the LORD all the descendants of Israel Shall be justified, and shall glory.' "

Gentiles are not descendents of Israel, we are grafted into Israel.

timmyb
Apr 15th 2008, 05:37 PM
We are made a part of the family that is Israel... Romans 9:6 says that they are not all Israel who are of Israel... meaning they have the bloodlines and the name but not the Messiah... We just have the Messiah not the bloodlines nor the name of Israel but we have been adopted into this family of Israel... That's what it means by grafting... we are the wild olive branches grafted into the old tree... some have been cut off but some have remained...

Mograce2U
Apr 18th 2008, 03:12 PM
Moses gave the instruction for the Passover lamb:

(Exo 12:46 KJV) In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.

David makes reference to that when he spoke of his hope in Messiah:

(Psa 34:20-22 KJV) He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken. {21} Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate. {22} The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.

Zechariah too prophesied of the death of Messiah:
(Zec 12:10-14 KJV) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications [did not this happen at Pentecost?]: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.[Mary standing at the foot of the cross with John represents the house of David] {11} In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. {12} And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; {13} The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; {14} All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.[does this not include all the disciples and those Jesus had healed and ministered too?]

Then John giving his testimony of Jesus' death on the cross, ties these scriptures together:

(John 19:35-37 KJV) And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. {36} For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.[Ps 118] {37} And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.[Zec 12:10]

David also spoke of a day of blessing when Messiah would arrive and sees the day of His death. It was a phrase that was said by the people annually at the Feast of Tabernacles:

(Psa 118:25-29 KJV) Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity. {26} Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD. {27} God is the LORD, which hath showed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, even unto the horns of the altar. {28} Thou art my God, and I will praise thee: thou art my God, I will exalt thee. {29} O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Matthew records the people hailing Jesus as He entered into Jerusalem in fulfillment of these prophecies: (see also Zec 9:9)

(Mat 21:6-11 KJV) And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them, {7} And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon. {8} And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strowed them in the way. {9} And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest. {10} And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this? {11} And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

All of these things obviously pertain to the 1st coming of Christ. So when Jesus says this in Matthew - still before the cross - how is it we think He means at His 2nd coming 1,000's of years into the future to a people not yet born?

(Mat 23:36-39 KJV) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. {37} O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! {38} Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. {39} For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Jesus did not continue in His ministry to Israel after this point, IOW it marks the end of what the hope they were given in these prophecies was about - the arrival of Messiah and their long awaited salvation. What remained to be fulfilled at this point was His death and the desolation that would come upon them as a result. This is the turning point of all those things that were spoken to come in that day. The "henceforth" is not 1,000's of years in the waiting, for the recognition that Jesus is Messiah is what brings salvation and the presence of Jesus into one's life. What the people had been saying every year in the Feast of Tabernacles had come to pass. Now unless they saw Jesus in this role, because He would not be returning to Israel ever again to do again what He already did - instead their house was to be desolate of the presence of God. It is not a hope being given of His 2nd coming, rather it is the end of what their hope was in His 1st!

David Taylor
Apr 18th 2008, 03:20 PM
We are made a part of the family that is Israel...

No, Israel isn't the root, nor the family we are made apart of...

The faithful natural branches (believing Israel), and faithful wild branches (believing Gentiles), are made apart of the family that is of Christ!

Israel (faithful) is only a subset of the whole; Christ, not Israel, is what we are made apart of.

Matt 12:48 "Jesus answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. "

Ephesians 3:14 "our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named"

I Timothy 3:15 "the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

Romans 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles"

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 04:57 PM
Well... there is still a plan for the House of Israel in God's plan... maybe I'm not getting my lingo down right or something... We do know that God has not cast them off and our job as CHRISTIANS is to provoke Israel to jealousy that is undeniable. It's the fullness of the Gentiles that will see the salvation of Israel come to pass... So, whether we be Jew or Gentile, In Yeshua we are one new creation. But there is still the promise that all Israel will be saved. The NATION of Israel that is.

David Taylor
Apr 18th 2008, 05:03 PM
Well... there is still a plan for the House of Israel in God's plan


Of course there is....that plan for the House of Israel was Christ via the Cross, and it was made available to all the House of Israel, and all her children from the 1st Century A.D. forward....not a postponed, future, withheld availability!





... maybe I'm not getting my lingo down right or something... We do know that God has not cast them off and our job as CHRISTIANS is to provoke Israel to jealousy that is undeniable. It's the fullness of the Gentiles that will see the salvation of Israel come to pass


No, it is falling at the foot of the cross, claiming the blood of Jesus as one's saviour and Lord, and trusting and following Him...that will bring salvation to pass.

It was available yesterday, today, and tomorrow for every member of Israel or Ireland; every Englishman and Eskimo. There is no difference in availablity. The Same Lord is gracious over all who will call upon His name.





... So, whether we be Jew or Gentile, In Yeshua we are one new creation. But there is still the promise that all Israel will be saved. The NATION of Israel that is.


Incorrect interpretation.

Judas Iscariot, an Israelite, will not be saved.
King Ahab, an Israelite, will not be saved.
The High Priest Caiaphus, will not be saved.
Millions of Israelites, will not be saved, because they rejected God and His Son.

Only those who turn to Jesus and following Him, will be saved.

The phrase "All Israel shall be saved", then, cannot be inclusive of every Israelite, but only those who faithfully believe and follow Jesus; just like every faithful Gentile who does the same.

At the end of time, "all Israel will be saved" (as well as all faithful Gentiles), because the last and final Israelite will have turned to Him before it is all over; not every living Israelite from all ages will rise from the graves and repent.

There is no after-death 2nd-chance at salvation.

Race is ended. Christ has come, and united all things in Himself. Join Christ, or be anathema.

DeafPosttrib
Apr 18th 2008, 05:48 PM
Dave,

Well saying. Amen.

Salvation is open to all Jews over the world, and even in Israel too today since Calvary, and still always open for them till second coming. It is not too late for Jews come to Christ, they still have chance to repent and accept Christ now. When once Lord comes, then the chnace or opporunity of salvation will be done(finish). Time for the jugdment to come upon all nations- Matt. 25:31-46.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 06:05 PM
Of course there is....that plan for the House of Israel was Christ via the Cross, and it was made available to all the House of Israel, and all her children from the 1st Century A.D. forward....not a postponed, future, withheld availability!





No, it is falling at the foot of the cross, claiming the blood of Jesus as one's saviour and Lord, and trusting and following Him...that will bring salvation to pass.

It was available yesterday, today, and tomorrow for every member of Israel or Ireland; every Englishman and Eskimo. There is no difference in availablity. The Same Lord is gracious over all who will call upon His name.






Incorrect interpretation.

Judas Iscariot, an Israelite, will not be saved.
King Ahab, an Israelite, will not be saved.
The High Priest Caiaphus, will not be saved.
Millions of Israelites, will not be saved, because they rejected God and His Son.

Only those who turn to Jesus and following Him, will be saved.

The phrase "All Israel shall be saved", then, cannot be inclusive of every Israelite, but only those who faithfully believe and follow Jesus; just like every faithful Gentile who does the same.

At the end of time, "all Israel will be saved" (as well as all faithful Gentiles), because the last and final Israelite will have turned to Him before it is all over; not every living Israelite from all ages will rise from the graves and repent.

There is no after-death 2nd-chance at salvation.

Race is ended. Christ has come, and united all things in Himself. Join Christ, or be anathema.

rewording... IN YESHUA meaning for those who are IN YESHUA... we are one... better now? otherwise I mostly agree with what you're saying... Israel will accept Yeshua... that's the promise... not all of them will because 2/3 of them will die by the hand of Antichrist ... but those that remain in the end will... that's the meaning of that promise

DeafPosttrib
Apr 18th 2008, 06:11 PM
Nothing you can find "physical nation" anywhere in Romans chapter 11. This chapter talking about individual for salvation. Also, tree is the picture of Jesus Christ. Christ is the vine, we are branches according to John 15:1-5. God already graffed(added) Gentiles upon same tree, which believing Jews already on it. "Israel" is all about tree- salvation, not 'physical nation', nothing at all.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 06:18 PM
Nothing you can find "physical nation" anywhere in Romans chapter 11. This chapter talking about individual for salvation. Also, tree is the picture of Jesus Christ. Christ is the vine, we are branches according to John 15:1-5. God already graffed(added) Gentiles upon same tree, which believing Jews already on it. "Israel" is all about tree- salvation, not 'physical nation', nothing at all.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

but you can in Romans 9... where Paul calls them his countrymen in the "flesh" who are "Israelites" and Romans 11 is the climax of the Jewish argument...

I'm not arguing about the validity of salvation... A Jew has to call upon the name of Jesus Christ and believe on him to be saved... But the promise in Romans 11 says that they will before the end..

the rookie
Apr 18th 2008, 06:55 PM
Incorrect interpretation.

Judas Iscariot, an Israelite, will not be saved.
King Ahab, an Israelite, will not be saved.
The High Priest Caiaphus, will not be saved.
Millions of Israelites, will not be saved, because they rejected God and His Son.

Only those who turn to Jesus and following Him, will be saved.

The phrase "All Israel shall be saved", then, cannot be inclusive of every Israelite, but only those who faithfully believe and follow Jesus; just like every faithful Gentile who does the same.

Incorrect interpretation of the interpretation. :D


At the end of time, "all Israel will be saved" (as well as all faithful Gentiles), because the last and final Israelite will have turned to Him before it is all over; not every living Israelite from all ages will rise from the graves and repent.

There is no after-death 2nd-chance at salvation.

Race is ended. Christ has come, and united all things in Himself. Join Christ, or be anathema.

This seems to be what Paul (and poor ol' timmyb) are saying - that while Israel is blinded, they are blinded in part (some can come to Christ now - Paul and the remnant of Israel are proof of God's commitment to Israel's role amongst the nations) until (meaning there would be an actual, future time within redemptive history when, on the planet, every living ethnic Jew would wholeheartedly worship Jesus as God and enthrone Him voluntarily as King). This future time has great implications related to blessing for the whole earth.

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 06:57 PM
Incorrect interpretation of the interpretation. :D



This seems to be what Paul (and poor ol' timmyb) are saying - that while Israel is blinded, they are blinded in part (some can come to Christ now - Paul and the remnant of Israel are proof of God's commitment to Israel's role amongst the nations) until (meaning there would be an actual, future time within redemptive history when, on the planet, every living ethnic Jew would wholeheartedly worship Jesus as God and enthrone Him voluntarily as King). This future time has great implications related to blessing for the whole earth.

THANK YOU ROOKIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:B:B:B

ShirleyFord
Apr 18th 2008, 07:03 PM
rewording... IN YESHUA meaning for those who are IN YESHUA... we are one... better now? otherwise I mostly agree with what you're saying... Israel will accept Yeshua... that's the promise... not all of them will because 2/3 of them will die by the hand of Antichrist ... but those that remain in the end will... that's the meaning of that promise

Timmy, so you are saying that when Paul said "all Israel" in Romans 11:26, he really meant "1/3 Israel"?

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 07:05 PM
Timmy, so you are saying that when Paul said "all Israel" in Romans 11:26, he really meant "1/3 Israel"?

what's left of them after the Tribulation will be saved... the remnant according to Zechariah 14... and 1/3 of them will be left... so... yeah... all of who's left which is 1/3...

we know that not literally "ALL" of Israel will be saved as shown by our friend Dave... but it is promised that all of Israel will be saved... So I can only conclude that the 1/3 remnant that remains after the tribulation will be saved.. all of them...

the rookie
Apr 18th 2008, 07:20 PM
Timmy, so you are saying that when Paul said "all Israel" in Romans 11:26, he really meant "1/3 Israel"?

No, as I said above, it means "all Israel alive at one time in redemptive history."

In other words, if I said, "Shirley, all America will be saved!" would you appeal to reductio ad absurdum (reduction to the absurd)? In other words, you (and Dave above) are appealing to a rhetorical device that takes the phrase "all Israel" and reduces the interpretation given ("someday, all Israel will be saved!") to the absurd ("Do you mean Judas Iscariot?" "Does 1/3 mean all?").

In other words (again), you wouldn't respond to my prediction by saying, "What about Aaron Burr?" or "What about those who died unsaved during the Vietnam war?" You would mostly likely inquire about such a huge prediction and its implications for the rest of the earth, since we don't know what the other nations would think if one nation was truly and fully "under God" according to the Sermon on the Mount.

That's what Paul was saying related to Zech. 13 as he spoke on the subject in Rom. 11.

David Taylor
Apr 18th 2008, 08:28 PM
Incorrect interpretation of the interpretation. :D



This seems to be what Paul (and poor ol' timmyb) are saying - that while Israel is blinded, they are blinded in part

How is this different than the Gentiles who are now also blinded in part?

People from both groups now can come to the Lord; or reject the Lord.

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 09:02 PM
How is this different than the Gentiles who are now also blinded in part?

People from both groups now can come to the Lord; or reject the Lord.

Because not all of the Gentiles have had the oportunity to blind themselves to Christ like the Jews have... There are plenty of unreached Gentiles... that's why we have missions... Missions will bring about the fullness of the Gentiles, which will provoke Israel to jealousy, thereby they will invite the Messiah back and set up his Millenial Kingdom...

the rookie
Apr 18th 2008, 09:03 PM
How is this different than the Gentiles who are now also blinded in part?

People from both groups now can come to the Lord; or reject the Lord.

While the second point is true and all can now come to the Lord, Paul constructs an apologetic for Gentile believers with an attitude within the Roman congregation at that time related to why they weren't coming to the Lord,though they were able handlers of the word in Rom. 3 (what Paul called "the Jewish ethnic advantage").

In other words, Paul doesn't mention Gentiles being blinded in part, only Israel. So you may want to ask why Paul clearly differentiated in Rom. 11.

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 09:10 PM
While the second point is true and all can now come to the Lord, Paul constructs an apologetic for Gentile believers with an attitude within the Roman congregation at that time related to why they weren't coming to the Lord,though they were able handlers of the word in Rom. 3 (what Paul called "the Jewish ethnic advantage").

In other words, Paul doesn't mention Gentiles being blinded in part, only Israel. So you may want to ask why Paul clearly differentiated in Rom. 11.

did what I said about all of the Gentiles haven't had the opportunity to blind themselves make any sense?

ShirleyFord
Apr 18th 2008, 09:54 PM
what's left of them after the Tribulation will be saved... the remnant according to Zechariah 14... and 1/3 of them will be left... so... yeah... all of who's left which is 1/3...

we know that not literally "ALL" of Israel will be saved as shown by our friend Dave... but it is promised that all of Israel will be saved... So I can only conclude that the 1/3 remnant that remains after the tribulation will be saved.. all of them...

Thanks Timmy. :)

But Paul doesn't mention "the tribulation" period or the Second Coming of Christ after the tribulation in Romans 11:26. Nor does he mention a prophecy of Zechariah.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Where is this written?

Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. 21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The Deliver/Redeemer Jesus Christ already came to earthly Zion to the household of Israel and paid the price for not only their sins but the sins of the entire world. He already confirmed that covenant, the New Covenant with His own blood.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,


The father of John the Baptist prophecied of the 1st Coming of Christ before He took on flesh and was born in Bethlehem:

John 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant



Shirley

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 10:19 PM
Thanks Timmy. :)

But Paul doesn't mention "the tribulation" period or the Second Coming of Christ after the tribulation in Romans 11:26. Nor does he mention a prophecy of Zechariah.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Where is this written?

Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. 21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The Deliver/Redeemer Jesus Christ already came to earthly Zion to the household of Israel and paid the price for not only their sins but the sins of the entire world. He already confirmed that covenant, the New Covenant with His own blood.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,


The father of John the Baptist prophecied of the 1st Coming of Christ before He took on flesh and was born in Bethlehem:

John 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant



Shirley

But you can't ignore that 2/3 of Israel will die before that... no matter where he pulls the scripture from. Romans 9-11 is a very brief summary of the whole theology of Israel... he doesn't mention how Christ will rule and reign from Israel, nor does he talk about how Israel has to invite the Messiah back at the end of the age.. He basically just gave enough to clarify his and God's position on Israel

the rookie
Apr 18th 2008, 10:26 PM
did what I said about all of the Gentiles haven't had the opportunity to blind themselves make any sense?

Nope. Not to me, anyways - others may differ in their perspective.

ShirleyFord
Apr 19th 2008, 02:23 AM
But you can't ignore that 2/3 of Israel will die before that... no matter where he pulls the scripture from.

Timmy, Paul quoted Isaiah 59:20 and Jeremiah 31 to show how all Israel would be saved.

Zechariah doesn't say that God will pour out His wrath on a particular generation of Jews who are alive in the nation of Israel via the antichrist, 3 1/2 years before the Second Coming of Christ for rejecting and killing His Son so that 1/3 of of them will finally give up and declare Jesus to be the Promised Messiah after all, just in time for them to bring Jesus back.

Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

But you are not alone in that interpretation. I was taught the same thing by dispensationalist scholars for nearly 30 years.


Shirley

wpm
Apr 19th 2008, 02:37 AM
Incorrect interpretation of the interpretation. :D

This seems to be what Paul (and poor ol' timmyb) are saying - that while Israel is blinded, they are blinded in part (some can come to Christ now - Paul and the remnant of Israel are proof of God's commitment to Israel's role amongst the nations) until (meaning there would be an actual, future time within redemptive history when, on the planet, every living ethnic Jew would wholeheartedly worship Jesus as God and enthrone Him voluntarily as King). This future time has great implications related to blessing for the whole earth.

Paul is basically saying, God hasn’t turned His back on the whole physical nation of Israel, as part of it will believe while the Gentiles enter. This is happening now – and it has been from Paul explained this.

Paul

the rookie
Apr 19th 2008, 04:29 AM
Paul is basically saying, God hasn’t turned His back on the whole physical nation of Israel, as part of it will believe while the Gentiles enter. This is happening now – and it has been from Paul explained this.

Paul

Of course it is happening now - as is much of the kingdom when it was set into motion 2000 years ago. As I said, Paul himself was proof of God's commitment to the Jews. It's just that what is happening now "in part" will happen in fullness later.

When the Gentiles come into their fullness, the Jews will follow - then blessing for the whole earth follows, as Paul described in Rom. 8.

So yes, I agree - it is happening in part now. More to come! Glory!

wpm
Apr 19th 2008, 04:35 AM
Of course it is happening now - as is much of the kingdom when it was set into motion 2000 years ago. As I said, Paul himself was proof of God's commitment to the Jews. It's just that what is happening now "in part" will happen in fullness later.

When the Gentiles come into their fullness, the Jews will follow - then blessing for the whole earth follows, as Paul described in Rom. 8.

So yes, I agree - it is happening in part now. More to come! Glory!

When do "the Gentiles come into their fullness" and what does that mean?

Paul

the rookie
Apr 19th 2008, 04:37 AM
Timmy, Paul quoted Isaiah 59:20 and Jeremiah 31 to show how all Israel would be saved.


Not quite.

Paul was quoting Isaiah 59:20 and Isaiah 27:9:

"Therefore by this the iniquity of Jacob will be covered;
And this is all the fruit of taking away his sin:
When he makes all the stones of the altar
Like chalkstones that are beaten to dust,
Wooden images and incense altars shall not stand."

Hopefully, we agree that Paul was a Jew. And anyone with a little familiarity with a Hebrew teaching style would know that, unlike modern believers, the Hebrews - whom, it would be good to point out, were superior to the Gentiles in the manner in which they handled the oracles of God (Rom. 3:1) - would quote a verse as a means of referencing an entire passage of scripture, not just one verse isolated from the rest. The whole idea was contained in the passages connected to the key verses - not just the verses themselves.

In this case, Paul is reminding us of two big ideas from the prophecies of Isaiah.

Paul understands that the blindness that has come to his ethnic brethren is neither total (“blindness in part has come…”) nor final. He is saying clearly that God is not finished with unbelieving Israel; that there would be a time in the future when this blindness, the veil that kept them from recognizing the truth about Jesus, will be lifted. For now, however, the measure of blindness that had come was unto a sovereign purpose. This blindness did not negate God’s future purposes for them, only delayed them.

After the “fullness of the Gentiles” has come in, the blindness will be lifted, and all of the Jews’ sinful behavior would be removed from their nation; all of their ungodly idol worship, patterns, and cultural compromises would be taken away.

In verse 26, Paul is quoting Isaiah 59:20, but he is actually referencing the entire passage of Isaiah 59. In this chapter, Isaiah is describing a time in which Israel will be at the height of her corporate sin and disobedience. She will grope in blindness and darkness, desperate and rebellious; even those who seek to depart from evil are in danger of being utterly devoured. It is in this context that the Lord Himself will save Israel from her enemies and bring her into complete physical and spiritual deliverance, that the Holy Spirit and truth might dwell in her midst.

In verse 27, Paul quotes Isaiah 27:9, which is a reference to the time of Israel’s restoration after the Lord’s indignation strikes the nations. He will “[come] out of His place” to “punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity…” (Isaiah 26:20–21). It will be in this future time that Israel will “fill the face of the world with fruit” (Isaiah 27:6) and the iniquity of Jacob will be covered—all as a fruit of the removal of Israel’s sins.

Paul’s understanding of what Israel’s salvation (and the “fullness of Israel”) means is clear by his use of these two verses. He is saying more than “All the Jews will be born again.” Paul envisions a future time in which, in the context of Israel’s great trouble and sorrow over both her own sin and the rage of the nations against her, Jesus Himself would come and rescue Israel. He will remove all threats and establish her in the Holy Spirit and truth. Israel will walk in full agreement with righteousness, purity, and the fullness of God’s ordained lifestyle.

So, there's a bit more going on in Rom. 11:26-27 than what has been highlighted here to "show how Israel would be saved".

the rookie
Apr 19th 2008, 04:46 AM
When do "the Gentiles come into their fullness" and what does that mean?

Paul

Since we're on a run through Isaiah lately, I would imagine it looks something like what he prophesied in Isaiah 42:

"Sing to the LORD a new song,
And His praise from the ends of the earth,
You who go down to the sea, and all that is in it,
You coastlands and you inhabitants of them!
11 Let the wilderness and its cities lift up their voice,
The villages that Kedar inhabits.
Let the inhabitants of Sela sing,
Let them shout from the top of the mountains.
12 Let them give glory to the LORD,
And declare His praise in the coastlands."

One could compare the unified, global song of the people of God to the unified, global prayer of the entire church in heaven and earth in Rev. 8:1-5 (the seventh seal).

It's similar to what Jeremiah prophesied in Jer. 31:7:

"7 For thus says the LORD:
“Sing with gladness for Jacob,
And shout among the chief of the nations;
Proclaim, give praise, and say,
‘O LORD, save Your people,
The remnant of Israel!’ "

When the global cry ignites in fullness, then what logically follows is God's answer, again in Isaiah 42:

13 "The LORD shall go forth like a mighty man;
He shall stir up His zeal like a man of war.
He shall cry out, yes, shout aloud;
He shall prevail against His enemies.
14 “I have held My peace a long time,
I have been still and restrained Myself.
Now I will cry like a woman in labor,
I will pant and gasp at once.
15 I will lay waste the mountains and hills,
And dry up all their vegetation;
I will make the rivers coastlands,
And I will dry up the pools.
16 I will bring the blind by a way they did not know;
I will lead them in paths they have not known.
I will make darkness light before them,
And crooked places straight.
These things I will do for them,
And not forsake them."

In other words, the fullness of the Gentiles includes (though I am sure there is more to it) the Lord going forth to save the remnant of Israel because of a global concert of prayer in which, well, we asked Him to. :D

Of course, as the great intercessor He orchestrated the prayer (i.e. commanding us to sing, or commanding us to pray - Isa. 62:6-7), but there's my answer, anyways.

wpm
Apr 19th 2008, 05:07 AM
Since we're on a run through Isaiah lately, I would imagine it looks something like what he prophesied in Isaiah 42:

"Sing to the LORD a new song,
And His praise from the ends of the earth,
You who go down to the sea, and all that is in it,
You coastlands and you inhabitants of them!
11 Let the wilderness and its cities lift up their voice,
The villages that Kedar inhabits.
Let the inhabitants of Sela sing,
Let them shout from the top of the mountains.
12 Let them give glory to the LORD,
And declare His praise in the coastlands."

One could compare the unified, global song of the people of God to the unified, global prayer of the entire church in heaven and earth in Rev. 8:1-5 (the seventh seal).

It's similar to what Jeremiah prophesied in Jer. 31:7:

"7 For thus says the LORD:
“Sing with gladness for Jacob,
And shout among the chief of the nations;
Proclaim, give praise, and say,
‘O LORD, save Your people,
The remnant of Israel!’ "

When the global cry ignites in fullness, then what logically follows is God's answer, again in Isaiah 42:

13 "The LORD shall go forth like a mighty man;
He shall stir up His zeal like a man of war.
He shall cry out, yes, shout aloud;
He shall prevail against His enemies.
14 “I have held My peace a long time,
I have been still and restrained Myself.
Now I will cry like a woman in labor,
I will pant and gasp at once.
15 I will lay waste the mountains and hills,
And dry up all their vegetation;
I will make the rivers coastlands,
And I will dry up the pools.
16 I will bring the blind by a way they did not know;
I will lead them in paths they have not known.
I will make darkness light before them,
And crooked places straight.
These things I will do for them,
And not forsake them."

In other words, the fullness of the Gentiles includes (though I am sure there is more to it) the Lord going forth to save the remnant of Israel because of a global concert of prayer in which, well, we asked Him to. :D

Of course, as the great intercessor He orchestrated the prayer (i.e. commanding us to sing, or commanding us to pray - Isa. 62:6-7), but there's my answer, anyways.

I don't catch your position. Are you saying that part of the populace of Israel will continue to be saved until the fulness of the Gentiles (whatever that means - you have yet to explain that), whereupon the full nation of Israel will be saved to the last man?

Paul

the rookie
Apr 19th 2008, 05:18 AM
I don't catch your position. Are you saying that part of the populace of Israel will continue to be saved until the fulness of the Gentiles (whatever that means - you have yet to explain that), whereupon the full nation of Israel will be saved to the last man?

Paul

Hmmm. I'll explain it like this, then - instead of OT, we'll try some NT.

The "fullness of the Gentiles" is related to the "fullness of God" that Paul prayed for in Eph. 3:16-19 related to the church's role in the plans of God related to reconciliation in Eph. 1:9-10 and Eph. 1:17-19 - and, of course, Eph. 2:14-15.

Thus it looks like what Paul then describes in Eph. 4:13:

"...till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;"

Is this exclusive to the Gentiles? No. But when the Gentile church walks in the fullness of unity of faith and the knowledge of God, I believe that it will translate into what I described above - unity in prayer, particularly related to the salvation and deliverance of Israel. In other words, before God fully reconciles heaven and earth, He will fully reconcile two people groups. This is happening partially now as proof that it will happen fully later.

Thus, in relationship to the worship and prayer of the church in Isa. 42 (and the other passages referenced), Jesus will go forth like a mighty Man of war against the enemies of Israel who will seek to destroy her (Zech. 12). He will deliver her in that day, and all who survive the sword (Jer. 31:2) will find rest, or will be saved and established in the full promises of God (Rom. 9:4).

"Every last man" would mean all those alive at that time in history. This is not to the exclusion of those who are saved now, of course. Today is the day of salvation, and any can come to Jesus in our day, regardless of ethnic background. Paul was describing the end of a process or journey, not giving boundaries to salvation. This end will bring great blessing to the whole earth - the fullness of Israel, as differentiated from the fullness of the Gentiles.

wpm
Apr 19th 2008, 05:21 AM
Not quite.

Paul was quoting Isaiah 59:20 and Isaiah 27:9:

"Therefore by this the iniquity of Jacob will be covered;
And this is all the fruit of taking away his sin:
When he makes all the stones of the altar
Like chalkstones that are beaten to dust,
Wooden images and incense altars shall not stand."

Hopefully, we agree that Paul was a Jew. And anyone with a little familiarity with a Hebrew teaching style would know that, unlike modern believers, the Hebrews - whom, it would be good to point out, were superior to the Gentiles in the manner in which they handled the oracles of God (Rom. 3:1) - would quote a verse as a means of referencing an entire passage of scripture, not just one verse isolated from the rest. The whole idea was contained in the passages connected to the key verses - not just the verses themselves.

In this case, Paul is reminding us of two big ideas from the prophecies of Isaiah.

Paul understands that the blindness that has come to his ethnic brethren is neither total (“blindness in part has come…”) nor final. He is saying clearly that God is not finished with unbelieving Israel; that there would be a time in the future when this blindness, the veil that kept them from recognizing the truth about Jesus, will be lifted. For now, however, the measure of blindness that had come was unto a sovereign purpose. This blindness did not negate God’s future purposes for them, only delayed them.

After the “fullness of the Gentiles” has come in, the blindness will be lifted, and all of the Jews’ sinful behavior would be removed from their nation; all of their ungodly idol worship, patterns, and cultural compromises would be taken away.

In verse 26, Paul is quoting Isaiah 59:20, but he is actually referencing the entire passage of Isaiah 59. In this chapter, Isaiah is describing a time in which Israel will be at the height of her corporate sin and disobedience. She will grope in blindness and darkness, desperate and rebellious; even those who seek to depart from evil are in danger of being utterly devoured. It is in this context that the Lord Himself will save Israel from her enemies and bring her into complete physical and spiritual deliverance, that the Holy Spirit and truth might dwell in her midst.

In verse 27, Paul quotes Isaiah 27:9, which is a reference to the time of Israel’s restoration after the Lord’s indignation strikes the nations. He will “[come] out of His place” to “punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity…” (Isaiah 26:20–21). It will be in this future time that Israel will “fill the face of the world with fruit” (Isaiah 27:6) and the iniquity of Jacob will be covered—all as a fruit of the removal of Israel’s sins.

Paul’s understanding of what Israel’s salvation (and the “fullness of Israel”) means is clear by his use of these two verses. He is saying more than “All the Jews will be born again.” Paul envisions a future time in which, in the context of Israel’s great trouble and sorrow over both her own sin and the rage of the nations against her, Jesus Himself would come and rescue Israel. He will remove all threats and establish her in the Holy Spirit and truth. Israel will walk in full agreement with righteousness, purity, and the fullness of God’s ordained lifestyle.

So, there's a bit more going on in Rom. 11:26-27 than what has been highlighted here to "show how Israel would be saved".

I believe your premise contradicts Paul's earlier definition of "all Israel" in Romans 9. It is therefore mistaken to assume “all Israel” in Romans 11:26 must relate to the full nation of natural Israel. Paul demolishes this faulty notion whilst specifically referring to this same party (“all Israel”) in Romans 9:6, stating, “they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.” I feel this statement alone nulifies your hypothesis. Contrary to what you say, we cannot overlook the fact that Israel “according to the flesh” is not true Israel. This is repeated time after time in the New Testament.

Paul

wpm
Apr 19th 2008, 05:26 AM
Hmmm. I'll explain it like this, then - instead of OT, we'll try some NT.

The "fullness of the Gentiles" is related to the "fullness of God" that Paul prayed for in Eph. 3:16-19 related to the church's role in the plans of God related to reconciliation in Eph. 1:9-10 and Eph. 1:17-19 - and, of course, Eph. 2:14-15.

Thus it looks like what Paul then describes in Eph. 4:13:

"...till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;"

Is this exclusive to the Gentiles? No. But when the Gentile church walks in the fullness of unity of faith and the knowledge of God, I believe that it will translate into what I described above - unity in prayer, particularly related to the salvation and deliverance of Israel. In other words, before God fully reconciles heaven and earth, He will fully reconcile two people groups. This is happening partially now as proof that it will happen fully later.

Thus, in relationship to the worship and prayer of the church in Isa. 42 (and the other passages referenced), Jesus will go forth like a mighty Man of war against the enemies of Israel who will seek to destroy her (Zech. 12). He will deliver her in that day, and all who survive the sword (Jer. 31:2) will find rest, or will be saved and established in the full promises of God (Rom. 9:4).

"Every last man" would mean all those alive at that time in history. This is not to the exclusion of those who are saved now, of course. Today is the day of salvation, and any can come to Jesus in our day, regardless of ethnic background. Paul was describing the end of a process or journey, not giving boundaries to salvation. This end will bring great blessing to the whole earth - the fullness of Israel, as differentiated from the fullness of the Gentiles.

Eph. 4:13 is speaking about glorification - when we attain unto perfection. You seem to locate that in this age when men are in their carnal state. You seem to see a cut off point for Gentile salvation long before the Lord's return which will see only Jews saved. This does not agree with repeated Scripture and in fact runs contrary the expressed teaching of Holy Writ.

Sinners irrespective of colour or nationality will receive salvation up until the return of Christ.

Paul

the rookie
Apr 19th 2008, 05:30 AM
I believe your premise contradicts Paul's earlier definition of "all Israel" in Romans 9. It is therefore mistaken to assume “all Israel” in Romans 11:26 must relate to the full nation of natural Israel. Paul demolishes this faulty notion whilst specifically referring to this same party (“all Israel”) in Romans 9:6, stating, “they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.” I feel this statement alone nulifies your hypothesis. Contrary to what you say, we cannot overlook the fact that Israel “according to the flesh” is not true Israel. This is repeated time after time in the New Testament.

Paul

As difficult as that was to read, "nullifies" seems like a bit of an overstatement, since Paul's statements about Israel in Rom. 10-11 seem to nullify your hypothesis.

In other words, you have taken one verse and imagined it shifted the entire conversation, so that the "Israel" that is mentioned in every succeeding verse has nothing to do with the "Israel" God spoke to in the very promises and covenants Paul spoke of in Rom. 9:4.

the rookie
Apr 19th 2008, 05:38 AM
Eph. 4:13 is speaking about glorification - when we attain unto perfection. You seem to locate that in this age when men are in their carnal state. You seem to see a cut off point for Gentile salvation long before the Lord's return which will see only Jews saved. This does not agree with repeated Scripture and in fact runs contrary the expressed teaching of Holy Writ.

Sinners irrespective of colour or nationality will receive salvation up until the return of Christ.

Paul

So, you are conceding unity of the faith in this age? If such a thing is impossible, why does Paul pray for it (Eph. 3:16-19)? Why does Revelation depict it (Rev. 8:1-5)?

Are you saying that the perfect leadership of Christ and the grace of God cannot bring the church into maturity before the Second Coming?

Unity of the faith and maturity (spotless, blameless - Eph. 5:26) are different than perfection and glorification. That's why Paul insists that Jesus is returning for a spotless Bride without wrinkle or blemish. Logically, this has to happen before the Second Coming - or are we saying that "spotless" is impossible in this age when men are in their carnal state?

Secondly, where is this "cut off point" you're observing - the one that takes place "long before" the Second Coming? Where did I say that, from that point forward, "only Jews will be saved"? It seems as if you are reading things into my statements that simply aren't there. All Israel coming into salvation after the Second Coming leads to the salvation of the Gentile nations after that; by which the nations stream into Jerusalem to learn from Jesus (Isa. 2, Mic. 4, Zech. 8).

Let's not debate things I'm not saying and don't believe.

wpm
Apr 19th 2008, 07:40 PM
As difficult as that was to read, "nullifies" seems like a bit of an overstatement, since Paul's statements about Israel in Rom. 10-11 seem to nullify your hypothesis.

In other words, you have taken one verse and imagined it shifted the entire conversation, so that the "Israel" that is mentioned in every succeeding verse has nothing to do with the "Israel" God spoke to in the very promises and covenants Paul spoke of in Rom. 9:4.

You cannot divorce Rom 9, from Rom 10 & 11. It gives context and meaning to the proceeding verses in the reading. Moreover, I believe your premise contradicts Paul's earlier definition of "all Israel" in Romans 9. It is therefore mistaken to assume “all Israel” in Romans 11:26 must relate to the full nation of natural Israel. Paul demolishes this faulty notion whilst specifically referring to this same party (“all Israel”) in Romans 9:6, stating, “they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.” I feel this statement alone nulifies your hypothesis. Contrary to what you say, we cannot overlook the fact that Israel “according to the flesh” is not true Israel. This is repeated time after time in the New Testament.

Paul

timmyb
Apr 19th 2008, 08:14 PM
all Israel... still means all Israel... You are reading too much in the "ALL" part of it... Zechariah says that 2/3 of them have to be cut off and die before they (the remnant) all get saved... so your argument doesn't make sense when you say all as in every Jew that ever lived past and present, living and dead.... all means all that are alive...

wpm
Apr 19th 2008, 08:19 PM
So, you are conceding unity of the faith in this age? If such a thing is impossible, why does Paul pray for it (Eph. 3:16-19)? Why does Revelation depict it (Rev. 8:1-5)?

Are you saying that the perfect leadership of Christ and the grace of God cannot bring the church into maturity before the Second Coming?

Unity of the faith and maturity (spotless, blameless - Eph. 5:26) are different than perfection and glorification. That's why Paul insists that Jesus is returning for a spotless Bride without wrinkle or blemish. Logically, this has to happen before the Second Coming - or are we saying that "spotless" is impossible in this age when men are in their carnal state?

Secondly, where is this "cut off point" you're observing - the one that takes place "long before" the Second Coming? Where did I say that, from that point forward, "only Jews will be saved"? It seems as if you are reading things into my statements that simply aren't there. All Israel coming into salvation after the Second Coming leads to the salvation of the Gentile nations after that; by which the nations stream into Jerusalem to learn from Jesus (Isa. 2, Mic. 4, Zech. 8).

Let's not debate things I'm not saying and don't believe.

I reject your hypothesis from a few angles.

Firstly, Ephesians 4:11-13 says, “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers”

PURPOSE


“FOR the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ”

DURATION

“TILL we all come in the ‘unity’ (oneness) of the faith, and of the ‘knowledge’ (full discernment) of the Son of God, unto ‘a man (andra) perfect (teleion)’, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.”

This will never happen before glorification. At this stage there will no longer be any need for preachers and exhorters. Christ will indeed be all in all. The last Gospel sermon will be over. The last appeal will be made. The day of salvation will be gone. This is indeed talking about the catching away. We can see in this reading, this five-fold-ministry terminates at the final future all-consummating Coming of Christ.

1 Corinthians 13:8-13 parallels, “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail (katargeo or ‘be done away’); whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away (katargeo or ‘be done away’). For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect (or teleios) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”

The Greek word teleios (Strong’s 5046) which comes from the Greek word telos (Strong’s 5046), which we are very familiar with meaning ‘the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically, an impost or levy (as paid)’. It is speaking about the end - the consummation. In fact, the all-consummating Coming of Christ.

At this final event prophecies, tongues and the gift of knowledge shall all vanish away. Why? We don’t need prophecies, tongues and supernatural knowledge anymore as we will have full understanding being perfect. However, “Charity never faileth.” A billion years into eternity we will still need love. We will love Christ throughout eternity. Love will never cease.

Today

(1) We know in part
(2) We see through a glass, darkly

Then (face to face):

(1) “That which is in part shall be done away”
(2) “Then shall I know even as also I am known.”
Secondly, your claim that men - redeemed men - will attain unto spotlessness is a grave error. Only One arrived there - His name was Jesus. Scripture makes clear:

Hebrews 5:9 says,“made perfect.”

2 Corinthians 5:21 says, “knew no sin.”

Hebrews 4:15 says, “without sin.”

1 John 3:5 says, “in him is no sin.”

1 Peter 2:22 says, “did no sin.”

Hebrews 7:26 says, “holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners.”

Hebrews 9:14 says, “without spot.”

1 Peter 1:19 says, “without blemish and without spot.

You seem to misunderstand imputed righteousness. The reality is, our standing viewed by God as perfect upon salvation (when we take on Him), however our state is still yet imperfect.

Paul

ShirleyFord
Apr 19th 2008, 09:03 PM
Not quite.

Paul was quoting Isaiah 59:20 and Isaiah 27:9:

"Therefore by this the iniquity of Jacob will be covered;
And this is all the fruit of taking away his sin:
When he makes all the stones of the altar
Like chalkstones that are beaten to dust,
Wooden images and incense altars shall not stand."

Hopefully, we agree that Paul was a Jew. And anyone with a little familiarity with a Hebrew teaching style would know that, unlike modern believers, the Hebrews - whom, it would be good to point out, were superior to the Gentiles in the manner in which they handled the oracles of God (Rom. 3:1) - would quote a verse as a means of referencing an entire passage of scripture, not just one verse isolated from the rest. The whole idea was contained in the passages connected to the key verses - not just the verses themselves.

In this case, Paul is reminding us of two big ideas from the prophecies of Isaiah.

But Paul said in Romans 11:26-27, And so (not then) all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

When Paul says, "as it is written", I believe that he literally means what he quotes of OT Scripture, no more or no less.

Gentiles didn't handle the oracles of God at all in the OT. Only a handful of individual Gentiles, like Ruth, even heard the gospel and were saved back then. And the gospel went out to only one Gentile city, Nineveh, in the OT. Only the nation of Israel had and handled the oracles of God until Jesus came the first time.

Wouldn't you agree that Matthew, a disciple and apostle of Christ was a Hebrew? He didn't use the method you ascribe to Hebrews when writing the book of Matthew:

"the Hebrews - whom, it would be good to point out, were superior to the Gentiles in the manner in which they handled the oracles of God (Rom. 3:1) - would quote a verse as a means of referencing an entire passage of scripture, not just one verse isolated from the rest. The whole idea was contained in the passages connected to the key verses - not just the verses themselves."

In Matthew Chapter 2, we have 3 examples of how Hebrew NT writers (and Jewish rabbis and priests) used OT prophecies:

1. Matt 2:4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

Where was it written?


Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.


2. Matt 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.



Where was it spoken?



Hos 11:1When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.



3. Matt 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

Where did Jeremiah speak that?



Jer 31:15Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.





Shirley

the rookie
Apr 19th 2008, 09:21 PM
When Paul says, "as it is written", I believe that he literally means what he quotes of OT Scripture, no more or no less.

I appreciate that perspective, but, no offense, what you believe has literally no bearing on sound contextual exegesis of scripture. In other words, while you can try to explain away Paul's rabbinical style with your examination of Matthew, it doesn't really hold a ton of water.

It would be more helpful if you commented on Isaiah 59 and Isaiah 27, but if your approach is to try to reframe the discussion by insisting that 1st century Hebrews quoted scripture the way you do, than we're probably not going to have a lot to discuss.

the rookie
Apr 19th 2008, 09:27 PM
I reject your hypothesis from a few angles.

Firstly, Ephesians 4:11-13 says, “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers”

PURPOSE


“FOR the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ”

DURATION

“TILL we all come in the ‘unity’ (oneness) of the faith, and of the ‘knowledge’ (full discernment) of the Son of God, unto ‘a man (andra) perfect (teleion)’, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.”

This will never happen before glorification.

By your logic, grammatically, the work of the ministry and the edification of the body must not be a possibility either. So I reject your hypothesis.



You seem to misunderstand imputed righteousness. The reality is, our standing viewed by God as perfect upon salvation (when we take on Him), however our state is still yet imperfect.

Paul

You seem to misunderstand "unity of the faith", Isaiah 42, Rev. 8:1-5, and the other passages I presented to outline what the "fullness of the Gentiles" may be pointing to.

Righteousness is imputed and imparted, as I am sure you grasp. One happens by the blood of the Lamb at the new birth, the other happens over time through the grace of God, the fullness of which Paul prayed for in Eph. 3:16-19.

timmyb
Apr 19th 2008, 09:37 PM
But Paul said in Romans 11:26-27, And so (not then) all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

When Paul says, "as it is written", I believe that he literally means what he quotes of OT Scripture, no more or no less.

Gentiles didn't handle the oracles of God at all in the OT. Only a handful of individual Gentiles, like Ruth, even heard the gospel and were saved back then. And the gospel went out to only one Gentile city, Nineveh, in the OT. Only the nation of Israel had and handled the oracles of God until Jesus came the first time.

Wouldn't you agree that Matthew, a disciple and apostle of Christ was a Hebrew? He didn't use the method you ascribe to Hebrews when writing the book of Matthew:

"the Hebrews - whom, it would be good to point out, were superior to the Gentiles in the manner in which they handled the oracles of God (Rom. 3:1) - would quote a verse as a means of referencing an entire passage of scripture, not just one verse isolated from the rest. The whole idea was contained in the passages connected to the key verses - not just the verses themselves."

In Matthew Chapter 2, we have 3 examples of how Hebrew NT writers (and Jewish rabbis and priests) used OT prophecies:

1. Matt 2:4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

Where was it written?


Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.


2. Matt 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.



Where was it spoken?



Hos 11:1When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.



3. Matt 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

Where did Jeremiah speak that?



Jer 31:15Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.





Shirley

I have to agree with the rookie on this one... even the literary context of the two books you are comparing doesn't make any sense... Matthew is the story of the life of Jesus... and Romans is like a textbook... you really can't compare the two and come to the same conclusion

ShirleyFord
Apr 19th 2008, 10:08 PM
I appreciate that perspective, but, no offense, what you believe has literally no bearing on sound contextual exegesis of scripture. In other words, while you can try to explain away Paul's rabbinical style with your examination of Matthew, it doesn't really hold a ton of water.

But I was responding to this that you said:


Hopefully, we agree that Paul was a Jew. And anyone with a little familiarity with a Hebrew teaching style would know that, unlike modern believers, the Hebrews - whom, it would be good to point out, were superior to the Gentiles in the manner in which they handled the oracles of God (Rom. 3:1) - would quote a verse as a means of referencing an entire passage of scripture, not just one verse isolated from the rest. The whole idea was contained in the passages connected to the key verses - not just the verses themselves.

I just merely used Matthew and only the one Chapter to point out how Hebrews used OT prophecies. And you will find that method with all of the Hebrews throughout the NT including Jesus as He taught and ministered.

Paul was no different we find as we go through all of his epistles.



It would be more helpful if you commented on Isaiah 59 and Isaiah 27, but if your approach is to try to reframe the discussion by insisting that 1st century Hebrews quoted scripture the way you do, than we're probably not going to have a lot to discuss.

I'm not trying to reframe the discussion. Just responding to what has already been brought up. :)

wpm
Apr 19th 2008, 11:25 PM
By your logic, grammatically, the work of the ministry and the edification of the body must not be a possibility either. So I reject your hypothesis.




You seem to misunderstand "unity of the faith", Isaiah 42, Rev. 8:1-5, and the other passages I presented to outline what the "fullness of the Gentiles" may be pointing to.

Righteousness is imputed and imparted, as I am sure you grasp. One happens by the blood of the Lamb at the new birth, the other happens over time through the grace of God, the fullness of which Paul prayed for in Eph. 3:16-19.

None of your supposed supporting passages correlate or relate to what you are stating. So your proof texts fall short of what your claim is. Anyway, there are different Greek words used (carrying different meanings) for the "the perfecting (or katartismos) of the saints" and "till we all come unto ... a perfect (or teleion) man."

The phrase "the perfecting of the saints" is simply speaking of the equipping of the people of God. That is what it means in the original. The five fold ministry of God serves to do that. When it is properly functioning then the ministry is being fully operated. The additional wording supports this: "for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ." This is the result of a wholesome ministry.

When it states: "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge (or full discernment) of the Son of God, unto ‘a man perfect' (andra teleion), unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" it is giving us the duration of the five fold ministry.

Further proof it is speaking of glorification is seen by the surrounding langugage. I don't know how the Holy Spirit could have made this clearer: "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the full discernment of the Son of God." We have not arrived there and will not arrive there until these corruptible fallen bodies are changed. To suggest otherwise is wide off the mark.

The usage of the Greek word teleios here simply denotes that the five fold ministry continues until the day when perfection is realised in the saints, wanting nothing further for their completeness.

Paul

ShirleyFord
Apr 20th 2008, 12:31 AM
I have to agree with the rookie on this one... even the literary context of the two books you are comparing doesn't make any sense... Matthew is the story of the life of Jesus... and Romans is like a textbook... you really can't compare the two and come to the same conclusion

Paul wrote to young Timothy, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim 3:16)

Wouldn't the book of Matthew be considered Scipture as much as any other book in the Bible?

Matthew is certainly a textbook with the teachings of the greatest teacher that ever lived: Jesus Christ. He was a Hebrew, a blood-born Jew from the tribe of Judah according to His flesh. Certainly Paul and all of the other Christian Hebrew teachers in the NT developed His same teaching style since He and the rest spoke by the same Holy Ghost. And His teaching style was perfect.

John146
Apr 20th 2008, 03:09 AM
Well... there is still a plan for the House of Israel in God's plan... maybe I'm not getting my lingo down right or something... We do know that God has not cast them off and our job as CHRISTIANS is to provoke Israel to jealousy that is undeniable. It's the fullness of the Gentiles that will see the salvation of Israel come to pass... So, whether we be Jew or Gentile, In Yeshua we are one new creation. But there is still the promise that all Israel will be saved. The NATION of Israel that is.

How could there be a promise that the entire nation of Israel would be saved? Do you disagree with scripture that says God is not a respecter of persons? Will repentance and faith no longer be required? Seems like that would have to be the case if the entire nation was going to be saved. Because it certainly isn't reasonable to think that every single one of them would repent and put their faith in Christ all at the same time. No, all true Israel will be saved. In other words, the Israel that is not of Israel (Rom 9:6) will all be saved.

John146
Apr 20th 2008, 04:02 AM
Hmmm. I'll explain it like this, then - instead of OT, we'll try some NT.

The "fullness of the Gentiles" is related to the "fullness of God" that Paul prayed for in Eph. 3:16-19 related to the church's role in the plans of God related to reconciliation in Eph. 1:9-10 and Eph. 1:17-19 - and, of course, Eph. 2:14-15.

Thus it looks like what Paul then describes in Eph. 4:13:

"...till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;"

Is this exclusive to the Gentiles? No. But when the Gentile church walks in the fullness of unity of faith and the knowledge of God, I believe that it will translate into what I described above - unity in prayer, particularly related to the salvation and deliverance of Israel.

There is no "Gentile church". There is neither Jew nor Gentile. All are one in Christ Jesus. Everything you're saying is based on a faulty premise, in my opinion.



In other words, before God fully reconciles heaven and earth, He will fully reconcile two people groups. This is happening partially now as proof that it will happen fully later.

Jew and Gentile believers are already fully reconciled together.

7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. - Acts 15:7-9

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; - Ephesians 2:11-19

the rookie
Apr 20th 2008, 05:40 AM
Paul wrote to young Timothy, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim 3:16)

Wouldn't the book of Matthew be considered Scipture as much as any other book in the Bible?

Matthew is certainly a textbook with the teachings of the greatest teacher that ever lived: Jesus Christ. He was a Hebrew, a blood-born Jew from the tribe of Judah according to His flesh. Certainly Paul and all of the other Christian Hebrew teachers in the NT developed His same teaching style since He and the rest spoke by the same Holy Ghost. And His teaching style was perfect.

Sure, but we're not talking about His teaching style, we're talking about your learning style related to your mode of interpretation, which seems to ignore contextual cues. Which means we are still avoiding Isa. 27 & 59....

the rookie
Apr 20th 2008, 05:46 AM
There is no "Gentile church". There is neither Jew nor Gentile. All are one in Christ Jesus. Everything you're saying is based on a faulty premise, in my opinion.

I could say the same about everything you're hearing. :D

Is there a Lutheran church, a Charismatic church, a Full Gospel church, and a Baptist church? Or are those distinctions based on a faulty premise as well?


Jew and Gentile believers are already fully reconciled together.

See, now that's a big statement to make when, the last time I checked, the body of Christ wasn't "fully reconciled together". There's still a few guys that don't like the speaking in tongues thing, for example.



7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. - Acts 15:7-9

Is this speaking of salvation or reconciliation?


11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; - Ephesians 2:11-19

"...that He might reconcile" = then, now, or in fullness in the days to come?

Or is Eph. 1:9-10, the reconciliation of heaven and earth, also a done deal?

the rookie
Apr 20th 2008, 05:48 AM
None of your supposed supporting passages correlate or relate to what you are stating. So your proof texts fall short of what your claim is. Anyway, there are different Greek words used (carrying different meanings) for the "the perfecting (or katartismos) of the saints" and "till we all come unto ... a perfect (or teleion) man."

The phrase "the perfecting of the saints" is simply speaking of the equipping of the people of God. That is what it means in the original. The five fold ministry of God serves to do that. When it is properly functioning then the ministry is being fully operated. The additional wording supports this: "for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ." This is the result of a wholesome ministry.

When it states: "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge (or full discernment) of the Son of God, unto ‘a man perfect' (andra teleion), unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" it is giving us the duration of the five fold ministry.

Further proof it is speaking of glorification is seen by the surrounding langugage. I don't know how the Holy Spirit could have made this clearer: "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the full discernment of the Son of God." We have not arrived there and will not arrive there until these corruptible fallen bodies are changed. To suggest otherwise is wide off the mark.

The usage of the Greek word teleios here simply denotes that the five fold ministry continues until the day when perfection is realised in the saints, wanting nothing further for their completeness.

Paul

Soooo...how close will we get by the grace of God before He returns?

I ask mostly because I don't think you're really connecting to what I'm "suggesting", since you never answered the question I asked about the faulty assumptions about what I believe that you made earlier.

undercoverdave
Apr 20th 2008, 06:19 AM
How could there be a promise that the entire nation of Israel would be saved? Do you disagree with scripture that says God is not a respecter of persons? Will repentance and faith no longer be required? Seems like that would have to be the case if the entire nation was going to be saved. Because it certainly isn't reasonable to think that every single one of them would repent and put their faith in Christ all at the same time. No, all true Israel will be saved. In other words, the Israel that is not of Israel (Rom 9:6) will all be saved.

To this I am tempted to respond, "Oh ye of little faith!"

Q. How could their be a promise that the entire nation of Israel would be saved?
A. Sounds like just the kind of thing God would do! At least from what I know of God... Plus it's exactly what He does say, and I believe it.

Q. Do you disagree with scripture that says God is not a respecter of persons?
A. The context of that verse (Acts 10:34) is in that God does not, by reason of race or heritage, deny salvation or His Spirit. It, in effect, removes any perceived limitations on who God will save if they turn to Him (10:43). To turn it around and say that God cannot save all Jews (who all call on His name) is an incorrect usage, and to me, preposterous.

Q. Will repentance and faith no longer be required?
A. Of course it will be required. See 10:43.

S. Seems like that would have to be the case if the entire nation was going to be saved. Because it certainly isn't reasonable to think that every single one of them would repent and put their faith in Christ all at the same time.
R. It isn't reasonable? I think it's not only reasonable, it's scriptural! It's even a requirement for Jesus return (Matt 23:39). Why is it impossible that they would all repent and come to faith in Jesus at one certain point? It would be an incredible day, that's for sure! Maybe they have some pressure to do so? Like end-time judgments being released, and all the nations of the world gathered against them?

I'm pretty sure Zechariah 12:10-11 is talking about that. Yes, it is quoted in John 19:37, but that's only a partial fulfillment, and the context of Zechariah 12 is the end-time battle, during which, as I understand it, Israel cries out to Jesus in repentance, and is saved.

S. No, all true Israel will be saved. In other words, the Israel that is not of Israel (Rom 9:6) will all be saved.[/QUOTE]
R. I disagree. 11:26 would make no sense, be almost meaningless, and not really a promise of any kind if that's all it meant. He would basically be restating a principle that he established thoroughly in chapter 8, that those who love God (those that are predestined, called, etc. etc.) shall not be separated from His love. In 11:26 he's stating that, although blindness has come in part right now, at some point in the future, all of Israel will join that same group of Rom 8.

I really can't make any sense of Romans 11 if I do not consider natural Israel in the equation. If Israel of 11:26 is not really Israel, but believers in general, then you would also have to take 11:7's Israel would also have to be believers in general, meaning "[believers have] not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded."

How can even read Romans 11 if you insert "believers" for Israel? Or do you just pick and choose which ones are believers based on which one suits you?

Again:

Rom. 11:11 ¶ I say then, have they [Natural Israel? or do you want to insert "believers" here?] stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their [see above] fall, to provoke them [see above] to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles [wait, I thought (according to your view) salvation only comes to "Israel," meaning believers?].
Rom. 11:12 Now if their [who?] fall is riches for the world [believers or unbelievers?], and their [who?] failure riches for the Gentiles [who?], how much more their fullness!

Who fell? Who is provoking whom to jealousy? Who has salvation come to? Note that the one who fell brought riches for the second one, but the first one will later be brought to fullness, which in turn will bless the second one EVEN MORE.

ShirleyFord
Apr 20th 2008, 11:43 AM
Sure, but we're not talking about His teaching style, we're talking about your learning style related to your mode of interpretation, which seems to ignore contextual cues.

"We" are? No you were the one "talking" about Paul's Hebrew teaching style when you disagreed with what I posted to Timmy; not my "learning style". I will attempt to refresh your memory:



Timmy, Paul quoted Isaiah 59:20 and Jeremiah 31 to show how all Israel would be saved.
Not quite.

Paul was quoting Isaiah 59:20 and Isaiah 27:9:

"Therefore by this the iniquity of Jacob will be covered;
And this is all the fruit of taking away his sin:
When he makes all the stones of the altar
Like chalkstones that are beaten to dust,
Wooden images and incense altars shall not stand."

Hopefully, we agree that Paul was a Jew. And anyone with a little familiarity with a Hebrew teaching style would know that, unlike modern believers, the Hebrews - whom, it would be good to point out, were superior to the Gentiles in the manner in which they handled the oracles of God (Rom. 3:1) - would quote a verse as a means of referencing an entire passage of scripture, not just one verse isolated from the rest. The whole idea was contained in the passages connected to the key verses - not just the verses themselves.

In this case, Paul is reminding us of two big ideas from the prophecies of Isaiah.

Paul understands that the blindness that has come to his ethnic brethren is neither total (“blindness in part has come…”) nor final. He is saying clearly that God is not finished with unbelieving Israel; that there would be a time in the future when this blindness, the veil that kept them from recognizing the truth about Jesus, will be lifted. For now, however, the measure of blindness that had come was unto a sovereign purpose. This blindness did not negate God’s future purposes for them, only delayed them.

After the “fullness of the Gentiles” has come in, the blindness will be lifted, and all of the Jews’ sinful behavior would be removed from their nation; all of their ungodly idol worship, patterns, and cultural compromises would be taken away.

In verse 26, Paul is quoting Isaiah 59:20, but he is actually referencing the entire passage of Isaiah 59. In this chapter, Isaiah is describing a time in which Israel will be at the height of her corporate sin and disobedience. She will grope in blindness and darkness, desperate and rebellious; even those who seek to depart from evil are in danger of being utterly devoured. It is in this context that the Lord Himself will save Israel from her enemies and bring her into complete physical and spiritual deliverance, that the Holy Spirit and truth might dwell in her midst.

In verse 27, Paul quotes Isaiah 27:9, which is a reference to the time of Israel’s restoration after the Lord’s indignation strikes the nations. He will “[come] out of His place” to “punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity…” (Isaiah 26:20–21). It will be in this future time that Israel will “fill the face of the world with fruit” (Isaiah 27:6) and the iniquity of Jacob will be covered—all as a fruit of the removal of Israel’s sins.

Paul’s understanding of what Israel’s salvation (and the “fullness of Israel”) means is clear by his use of these two verses. He is saying more than “All the Jews will be born again.” Paul envisions a future time in which, in the context of Israel’s great trouble and sorrow over both her own sin and the rage of the nations against her, Jesus Himself would come and rescue Israel. He will remove all threats and establish her in the Holy Spirit and truth. Israel will walk in full agreement with righteousness, purity, and the fullness of God’s ordained lifestyle.

So, there's a bit more going on in Rom. 11:26-27 than what has been highlighted here to "show how Israel would be saved".


Which means we are still avoiding Isa. 27 & 59....

I'm not avoiding anything. I'm just trying to stick with what Paul actually said:

Romans 11:26-27, And so (not then) all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

We certainly find that prophecy in Isaiah 59:20-21:

20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.


And Paul doesn't mention the rest of Isaiah 59. So I disagree with you that he uses vs. 20 and 21 only as a reference to the rest of the Chapter that he is actually speaking of. It is simply not there. Nor did Paul mention what is written in Isaiah 27. So I don't understand why you continue to insist that we must add to what Paul actually said.


Shirley

the rookie
Apr 20th 2008, 02:17 PM
"We" are? No you were the one "talking" about Paul's Hebrew teaching style when you disagreed with what I posted to Timmy; not my "learning style". I will attempt to refresh your memory:

Thanks for that - if you recall, you immediately shifted the conversation to the gospel of Matthew and the manner in which Matthew used the OT scriptures. Then you started talking about Jesus' teaching style. To which I replied that we aren't talking about Jesus' teaching style, but your hermeneutic.

Your hermeneutic insists that 1st Century Hebrews quote scripture like 21st century Protestants. You insisted that no Jew in the NT use a scripture reference to point to an entire passage of scripture in the OT, though Romans, Hebrews, and Revelation would be three books that adhere to that style of referencing OT ideas.


I'm not avoiding anything. I'm just trying to stick with what Paul actually said:

Romans 11:26-27, And so (not then) all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

We certainly find that prophecy in Isaiah 59:20-21:

20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.


And Paul doesn't mention the rest of Isaiah 59. So I disagree with you that he uses vs. 20 and 21 only as a reference to the rest of the Chapter that he is actually speaking of. It is simply not there. Nor did Paul mention what is written in Isaiah 27. So I don't understand why you continue to insist that we must add to what Paul actually said.


Shirley

I realize that you aren't understanding me, that's why I said earlier that we probably wouldn't have much to talk about on this issue.

timmyb
Apr 20th 2008, 02:39 PM
How could there be a promise that the entire nation of Israel would be saved? Do you disagree with scripture that says God is not a respecter of persons? Will repentance and faith no longer be required? Seems like that would have to be the case if the entire nation was going to be saved. Because it certainly isn't reasonable to think that every single one of them would repent and put their faith in Christ all at the same time. No, all true Israel will be saved. In other words, the Israel that is not of Israel (Rom 9:6) will all be saved.

it's nothing personal, the Promise is right there in black and white Romans 11:26... No I don't disagree with the fact that God is no respecter of persons.. that's the biggest encouragement in my life... But, God respects his promises too... and the promise is there... let me make one thing very clear... EVERYONE COMES TO JESUS THE EXACT SAME WAY AS EVERYONE ELSE... the promise doesn't mean that the Jew just 'gets in' they will have to come to the same route that everyone else does... the promise means that every Jew alive on the earth will take that same route... It's them that has to say Baruch Haba Bashem Adonai.. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord

I just want to say that not everything God does is 'reasonable' or 'makes sense' it just is. No offense.

Romans 9:6... Not all who are Israel are of Israel... Here goes

Jews have the bloodline and the name to call themselves Israel. But they have one problem. Not ALL of them have the Messiah. It's only the Jews who have the bloodline, name, and the Messiah that are rightfully called 'Israel' That would explain how we have been 'grafted in'. We as ethnic Gentiles don't have the bloodline nor the name but we have the Messiah. So Jesus solves our problem with the bloodline and the name... now we are called by his name and we have his blood in us. All the Jews need to accept the Messiah... That's the one new man reality.

ShirleyFord
Apr 20th 2008, 10:09 PM
Your hermeneutic insists that 1st Century Hebrews quote scripture like 21st century Protestants.

Don't rightly know what you mean by my "hermeneutic".

Don't remember mentioning "Protestants", 21st century or any other kind so I don't have any idea what you are referring to.


You insisted that no Jew in the NT use a scripture reference to point to an entire passage of scripture in the OT, though Romans, Hebrews, and Revelation would be three books that adhere to that style of referencing OT ideas.

Then you wouldn't mind providing some scriptural examples?

the rookie
Apr 21st 2008, 05:52 AM
Don't rightly know what you mean by my "hermeneutic".

If you're meaning the word in general, it means "rules of scripture interpretation" and helps with the pursuit of orthodoxy. Everyone has a set of rules that they use to interpret scripture, which keeps things from getting too subjective.

If you're meaning your hermeneutic specifically, it's quite clear that you hew to the traditional reformed mode of scripture interpretation which interprets the OT through the lens of the NT.


Don't remember mentioning "Protestants", 21st century or any other kind so I don't have any idea what you are referring to.

You didn't. I did.


Then you wouldn't mind providing some scriptural examples?

1. I did already, and it didn't get us very far.

2. I'd be happy to explore others, but I'm quite sure that the response would be the exact same as it was, which pretty much can be reduced to "Did not!" "Did so!" "Did not!" "Did so..." and so on and so forth.

3. By the time we examined my scriptural examples and applied said "did not, did so" debate style, we will have effectively derailed this thread.

So, I respectfully decline your invitation.

John146
Apr 21st 2008, 07:34 PM
I could say the same about everything you're hearing. :D

Is there a Lutheran church, a Charismatic church, a Full Gospel church, and a Baptist church? Or are those distinctions based on a faulty premise as well?

Denominations are certainly faulty. Christ prayed that we would be one as He and the Father are one. In God's eyes there is no Lutheran or Charismatic church. There is only the one body of Christ. That is the perspective from which we should be looking at this. So, I say again: there is no Gentile church.


See, now that's a big statement to make when, the last time I checked, the body of Christ wasn't "fully reconciled together". There's still a few guys that don't like the speaking in tongues thing, for example.

That's not what reconciliation is about. We can be united and reconciled in Christ without agreeing about "the speaking in tongues thing", can we not? If reconciliation means that we have to agree on everything, then that will not happen until the new heavens and new earth appear.


Is this speaking of salvation or reconciliation?

Both



"...that He might reconcile" = then, now, or in fullness in the days to come?

Or is Eph. 1:9-10, the reconciliation of heaven and earth, also a done deal?

Jew and Gentile believers are reconciled now and will continue to be reconciled as time goes on. You seem to place this reconciliation entirely in the future and my aim was to show that is not the case.

timmyb
Apr 21st 2008, 07:43 PM
Denominations are certainly faulty. Christ prayed that we would be one as He and the Father are one. In God's eyes there is no Lutheran or Charismatic church. There is only the one body of Christ. That is the perspective from which we should be looking at this. So, I say again: there is no Gentile church.

you're absolutely right.. but there are Gentile people and Jewish people... and God still likes the Jews




That's not what reconciliation is about. We can be united and reconciled in Christ without agreeing about "the speaking in tongues thing", can we not? If reconciliation means that we have to agree on everything, then that will not happen until the new heavens and new earth appear.

the only problem with that is he gave us apostles and prophets and teaches and evangelists and pastors till we come into the UNITY of the faith... the Bible only says one thing about the tongues issue and we are still arguing about that... reconciliation will only come when we all agree with the same Holy Spirit about the same interpretation.. there is only ONE interpretation of the Bible... the Holy Spirit's interpretation... We are still divided... and division can only be solved by reconciliation




Both



Jew and Gentile believers are reconciled now and will continue to be reconciled as time goes on. You seem to place this reconciliation entirely in the future and my aim was to show that is not the case.

The Gentiles aren't reconciled..we can't even agree on the meaning of the same scripture and that's just us! How many denominations within the church exist? As long as separation remains in the church we will NEVER be reconciled... there will be no denominations in the Kingdom of God... only one people following one savior and the prayer may I add was "Your kingdom come your will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven" Paul gave us the 5 fold so that we wouldn't be in this mess.

conclusion: Jews and the Church aren't reconciled because not even the church itself is reconciled. The Church has a real identity crisis. The reason the Jews won't come to Christ... is because we don't even know what we're trying to do. and I agree with them I wouldn't take marriage couseling from a divorced couple.

John146
Apr 21st 2008, 07:46 PM
To this I am tempted to respond, "Oh ye of little faith!"

I'm glad that you didn't fall for that temptation because that would have been rather judgmental.




Q. How could their be a promise that the entire nation of Israel would be saved?
A. Sounds like just the kind of thing God would do! At least from what I know of God... Plus it's exactly what He does say, and I believe it.You interpret it a certain way and I interpret it differently. I, too, believe it's exactly as He said, but I also take into consideration what Paul said regarding the Israel that is saved compared to the one that is not in Romans 9:6-8.



Q. Do you disagree with scripture that says God is not a respecter of persons?
A. The context of that verse (Acts 10:34) is in that God does not, by reason of race or heritage, deny salvation or His Spirit. It, in effect, removes any perceived limitations on who God will save if they turn to Him (10:43). To turn it around and say that God cannot save all Jews (who all call on His name) is an incorrect usage, and to me, preposterous.Of course God would save all Jews if all Jews called on His name. I'm saying that it's not reasonable to expect that to happen at some point in the future, especially when you consider that 98% (according to one study) of them are not Christian now.



Q. Will repentance and faith no longer be required?
A. Of course it will be required. See 10:43.Glad you agree. So, do you believe God will repent for them? Do you believe that not even one of them will not repent?



S. Seems like that would have to be the case if the entire nation was going to be saved. Because it certainly isn't reasonable to think that every single one of them would repent and put their faith in Christ all at the same time.
R. It isn't reasonable? I think it's not only reasonable, it's scriptural! It's even a requirement for Jesus return (Matt 23:39). Why is it impossible that they would all repent and come to faith in Jesus at one certain point? It would be an incredible day, that's for sure! Maybe they have some pressure to do so? Like end-time judgments being released, and all the nations of the world gathered against them?Many in the past have had judgments coming against them and still did not repent. I'm thinking of Pharaoh and the Egyptians, for example. That would not guarantee that all of them would repent.



I'm pretty sure Zechariah 12:10-11 is talking about that. Yes, it is quoted in John 19:37, but that's only a partial fulfillment, and the context of Zechariah 12 is the end-time battle, during which, as I understand it, Israel cries out to Jesus in repentance, and is saved. You say it's a partial fulfillment. I say it's a complete fulfillment. We should allow the New Testament to give the timing of the fulfillment.



S. No, all true Israel will be saved. In other words, the Israel that is not of Israel (Rom 9:6) will all be saved.
R. I disagree. 11:26 would make no sense, be almost meaningless, and not really a promise of any kind if that's all it meant. He would basically be restating a principle that he established thoroughly in chapter 8, that those who love God (those that are predestined, called, etc. etc.) shall not be separated from His love. In 11:26 he's stating that, although blindness has come in part right now, at some point in the future, all of Israel will join that same group of Rom 8.

I don't see why it would be meaningless. Paul restated principles many times.



I really can't make any sense of Romans 11 if I do not consider natural Israel in the equation. If Israel of 11:26 is not really Israel, but believers in general, then you would also have to take 11:7's Israel would also have to be believers in general, meaning " not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded."

How can even read Romans 11 if you insert "believers" for Israel? Or do you just pick and choose which ones are believers based on which one suits you?Nope, I base it on what fits the context. With your logic, I guess the Israel that is not of Israel in Romans 9:6 is the same Israel. :hmm:



Again:

Rom. 11:11 ¶ I say then, have they [Natural Israel? or do you want to insert "believers" here?] stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their [see above] fall, to provoke them [see above] to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles [wait, I thought (according to your view) salvation only comes to "Israel," meaning believers?].
Rom. 11:12 Now if their [who?] fall is riches for the world [believers or unbelievers?], and their [who?] failure riches for the Gentiles [who?], how much more their fullness!

Who fell? Who is provoking whom to jealousy? Who has salvation come to? Note that the one who fell brought riches for the second one, but [B]the first one will later be brought to fullness, which in turn will bless the second one EVEN MORE.Why only later?

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. - Romans 11:30-32

Is this verse only for "later" or did it apply even back when Paul wrote this? It seems clear to me that it applied even back then. Unless you believe that God does not yet have mercy upon all.

You asked "who has salvation come to"? Jew and Gentile alike, of course.

John146
Apr 21st 2008, 07:56 PM
you're absolutely right.. but there are Gentile people and Jewish people... and God still likes the Jews

I didn't say He didn't. He loves the world, doesn't He?



the only problem with that is he gave us apostles and prophets and teaches and evangelists and pastors till we come into the UNITY of the faith... the Bible only says one thing about the tongues issue and we are still arguing about that... reconciliation will only come when we all agree with the same Holy Spirit about the same interpretation.. there is only ONE interpretation of the Bible... the Holy Spirit's interpretation... We are still divided... and division can only be solved by reconciliationThat type of reconciliation will only occur in the new heavens and new earth. We'll never all agree on everything until then, when everything will be made known.


The Gentiles aren't reconciled..we can't even agree on the meaning of the same scripture and that's just us!Scripture says the two (Jew and Gentile believers) have been made one by the cross. I'm going to side with Scripture.

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. - Ephesians 2:13-17



How many denominations within the church exist? As long as separation remains in the church we will NEVER be reconciled... there will be no denominations in the Kingdom of God... only one people following one savior and the prayer may I add was "Your kingdom come your will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven" Paul gave us the 5 fold so that we wouldn't be in this mess.Again, scripture says the two (Jew and Gentile believers) have been made (past tense) both one (Eph 2:14).




conclusion: Jews and the Church aren't reconciled because not even the church itself is reconciled. Paul said Jew and Gentile believers have been made one. That's the reconciliation that I'm talking about and Paul said it was accomplished "by the cross".

Mograce2U
Apr 21st 2008, 08:17 PM
When the angels announced at Jesus' birth "Peace on earth good will towards men" - they weren't speaking about peace between men and men, but peace between men and God. That is Who our reconciliation is to. And when Jesus said that He came not to bring peace but a sword and division among men - that is exactly what we see He did. He split up the house of Israel and saved both the elect remnant and the Gentiles, and cut off the others.

So whatever Paul meant when he said this:

(Eph 4:13 KJV) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

It can only be that love towards one another is the goal of what this perfect unity is intended to look like. And it is possible to have unity and diversity since all are not apostles, etc. Whatever our divisions may be, we must all be about the business of reaching the lost to bring them to Christ. For our faith in Christ is the only thing that we have in common. And only those who demonstrate that faith are in Christ and have peace with God. How odd that peace with God can coexist with strife among men. Yet we testify to this daily on this board!

IPet2_9
Apr 21st 2008, 08:39 PM
conclusion: Jews and the Church aren't reconciled because not even the church itself is reconciled.

Paul said Jew and Gentile believers have been made one. That's the reconciliation that I'm talking about and Paul said it was accomplished "by the cross".

My impression right now is you're both trying to say the same thing, but approaching it from different angles. I think it's fair to say that there are irreconciled differences within the Church, fall where they may--but that that is out of man's own shortcomings, and not by God's design.

wpm
Apr 21st 2008, 10:39 PM
you're absolutely right.. but there are Gentile people and Jewish people... and God still likes the Jews





the only problem with that is he gave us apostles and prophets and teaches and evangelists and pastors till we come into the UNITY of the faith... the Bible only says one thing about the tongues issue and we are still arguing about that... reconciliation will only come when we all agree with the same Holy Spirit about the same interpretation.. there is only ONE interpretation of the Bible... the Holy Spirit's interpretation... We are still divided... and division can only be solved by reconciliation





The Gentiles aren't reconciled..we can't even agree on the meaning of the same scripture and that's just us! How many denominations within the church exist? As long as separation remains in the church we will NEVER be reconciled... there will be no denominations in the Kingdom of God... only one people following one savior and the prayer may I add was "Your kingdom come your will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven" Paul gave us the 5 fold so that we wouldn't be in this mess.

conclusion: Jews and the Church aren't reconciled because not even the church itself is reconciled. The Church has a real identity crisis. The reason the Jews won't come to Christ... is because we don't even know what we're trying to do. and I agree with them I wouldn't take marriage couseling from a divorced couple.

The Jews reject Christ because they are rebels against God and His righteousness. They are altogether enemies of God outside of Jesus - just like the Geniles that reject Christ.

Paul

the rookie
Apr 21st 2008, 10:41 PM
Denominations are certainly faulty. Christ prayed that we would be one as He and the Father are one. In God's eyes there is no Lutheran or Charismatic church. There is only the one body of Christ. That is the perspective from which we should be looking at this. So, I say again: there is no Gentile church.

From God's perspective, there was Israel. Yet, from the Father's perspective, there was Ephraim and Judah. Both were true. There was "one body" (metaphorically) with different tribes. God seemed to care about and communicate with the different tribes, appoint different tribes for different functions, etc.

We see the same thing today - one body, many "tribes". To imagine that God doesn't see a Lutheran church (and its role in the body) or the Charismatic church (ditto) is to imagine a body with no "parts". I guess God one could imagine that God sees us as a big blob with no distinctions; I would rather be more precise in defining the idea of a "body" from scripture.

Does God "see" denominations related to salvation? Of course not. I have to imagine that you meant to say that, because the alternative, logically, is quite ridiculous. In other words, I am sure that God is well aware of denominational realities within the body of Christ and, as the sovereign God, probably had a little to do with it.



That's not what reconciliation is about. We can be united and reconciled in Christ without agreeing about "the speaking in tongues thing", can we not? If reconciliation means that we have to agree on everything, then that will not happen until the new heavens and new earth appear.

Then what in the world is the "unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God" about? Is reconciliation only an ethereal spiritual reality with no substance - or is there any functional reality to the God who desires to reconcile all things to Himself?

In other words, if a saved Baptist despises the tongues-speaking Charismatic, you would label that "reconciliation"?



Both

Um, how?



Jew and Gentile believers are reconciled now and will continue to be reconciled as time goes on. You seem to place this reconciliation entirely in the future and my aim was to show that is not the case.

Really? When is the last time you interacted with a Messianic Congregation? My contention isn't necessarily to relegate this to a future event as much as I would like to point out the obvious - that there is a process involved, within the natural order, and that there is still a little ways to go.

In other words, if Fred goes to divorce court and state emphatically that my wife and I are "reconciled" and the judge looks at him funny and he smiles back and says, "by the blood of Christ!"...well, she'll probably get all the assets and custody of the kids.

Reconciliation, biblically, actually happens when two entities that couldn't coexist before both can (through the blood of Christ or salvation) and do (through transformation or sanctification).

You seem to think that "can" and "do" are automatic, synonymous realities without really explaining how this could be so.

the rookie
Apr 21st 2008, 10:43 PM
The Jews reject Christ because they are rebels against God and His righteousness. They are altogether enemies of God outside of Jesus - just like the Geniles that reject Christ.

Paul

The apostle Paul said it a bit differently:

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

the rookie
Apr 21st 2008, 10:48 PM
When the angels announced at Jesus' birth "Peace on earth good will towards men" - they weren't speaking about peace between men and men, but peace between men and God. That is Who our reconciliation is to. And when Jesus said that He came not to bring peace but a sword and division among men - that is exactly what we see He did. He split up the house of Israel and saved both the elect remnant and the Gentiles, and cut off the others.

No, reconciliation goes deeper than that - tribes and ethnic groups that make war with one another (Matt. 24:4-8) will love one another fully on the sea of glass (Rev. 7); the first commandment always leads to the second commandment - and that is the fullness of reconciliation. Man becomes reconciled to God and then becomes reconciled to one another.

The degree to which man is reconciled to God is the process of sanctification - and it also happens to be the degree to which we become reconciled in authentic love towards one another.


So whatever Paul meant when he said this:

(Eph 4:13 KJV) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

It can only be that love towards one another is the goal of what this perfect unity is intended to look like. And it is possible to have unity and diversity since all are not apostles, etc. Whatever our divisions may be, we must all be about the business of reaching the lost to bring them to Christ. For our faith in Christ is the only thing that we have in common. And only those who demonstrate that faith are in Christ and have peace with God. How odd that peace with God can coexist with strife among men. Yet we testify to this daily on this board!

Yes, but I think that a biblical vision for reconciliation goes a bit deeper than a bunch of people disagreeing about the bible on a message board. The "fullness of God" that Paul prayed for in Eph. 3:19 related to being "rooted and grounded in love" is similar to the vision of Jesus, and His prayer in John 17:26 -

"And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

wpm
Apr 21st 2008, 11:52 PM
The apostle Paul said it a bit differently:

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


You fail to see the 2 groups in view here.

Romans 11:28 addresses this saying, speaking of natural Israel first, “As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election,they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.”

These two groups have two different standings. Paul is not saying that the Christ-rejecting Jews “are beloved for the fathers' sakes,” no. Plainly, the overall rebellious nation of Israel is depicted here as being “enemies” of “the Gospel.” However, the elect Israelis ("the election") are different, those that are born again of the Spirit of God – they “are beloved for the fathers' sakes.”

Every time we are faced with the term “the election” it is always carefully and strictly restricted to those that belong to Christ through faith. In the case of Israel, it refers to “the remnant” of natural Israel, or “them that turn from transgression in Jacob.” They alone are the elect; they alone are the recipients of “the election” of God. This in itself is a significant manifestation of the grace of God, since the Jews as a nation rejected their King; they rejected their Messiah. None of them deserved grace. God could have easily turned His back on every Jew after the crucifixion. However, because of their “fathers,” because of their love of God, He has continued to manifest His grace through a choice holy Israeli remnant, as He has also through a holy Gentile remnant – all being contained within the one “good olive tree.”

Paul

prayerquake
Apr 22nd 2008, 12:09 AM
We get into trouble when we think some of these numbers apply to today. Read the bible with the understanding that at least 2000 years have past since the new testament alone. Then you will get a perspective of where we might fit in with our "numbers." Seriously, stop and think of what the church was doing, oh, let's say around 750 AD. Hmm. Probably some people were wondering if they were part of the 144K and working hard to get there. Other Christians were working everyday and just hoping to make it, others were sure they were going to make it. There were probably some people in 750 AD that knew the end times had to happen at any moment. The famines and tortures and harassment couldn't get any worse. I"m not being flippant, these human experiences have been around for centuries. They had their own form of "newscasts of the time to prove it." Truly, this is not new.

144 thousand is a very small number compared to the number of Martyrs since Jesus Died on the Cross. An embarrassing number of people are wondering what they could do to become part of the 144K. People people. There have been 75 Million people Martyred, not just died as a Christian, but Martyred since our first Martyr, Jesus. If you want to get evaluated by your works then start with getting martyred and line up behind the other 75 million to see if you could take a grab at the honors table.

the rookie
Apr 22nd 2008, 12:47 AM
You fail to see the 2 groups in view here.

Romans 11:28 addresses this saying, speaking of natural Israel first, “As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election,they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.”

These two groups have two different standings. Paul is not saying that the Christ-rejecting Jews “are beloved for the fathers' sakes,” no. Plainly, the overall rebellious nation of Israel is depicted here as being “enemies” of “the Gospel.” However, the elect Israelis ("the election") are different, those that are born again of the Spirit of God – they “are beloved for the fathers' sakes.”

Every time we are faced with the term “the election” it is always carefully and strictly restricted to those that belong to Christ through faith. In the case of Israel, it refers to “the remnant” of natural Israel, or “them that turn from transgression in Jacob.” They alone are the elect; they alone are the recipients of “the election” of God. This in itself is a significant manifestation of the grace of God, since the Jews as a nation rejected their King; they rejected their Messiah. None of them deserved grace. God could have easily turned His back on every Jew after the crucifixion. However, because of their “fathers,” because of their love of God, He has continued to manifest His grace through a choice holy Israeli remnant, as He has also through a holy Gentile remnant – all being contained within the one “good olive tree.”

Paul

You fail to see the grammatical gymnastics you are employing to contort a sentence beyond its plain meaning, IMO. Thus your confusing interpretation of "the fathers" - not to say that you are confused (that would be mean) but that your interpretation is confusing. It doesn't really make sense, in other words.

I see the "election" as their elected purpose or function, not their predestination. In other words, many generations will have wandered and rejected the Lord - but He will keep His promise to their fathers. He loves them with a prophetic, covenental love - seeing their destiny as a nation (future) and remembering HIs promise to their fathers (covenental) - He will establish them again in the fullness of gifts and calling that are irrevocable.

You skipped over "for your sake" - I also see two groups, but the "your sake" are the Gentile nations that were blessed by the failure of Israel by being grafted into the Hebrew olive tree. Or are you implying that the blindness of all enemies of the gospel, regardless of ethnicity, is for the sake of all the redeemed, regardless of ethnicity? It sounds nice, but it makes no sense.

wpm
Apr 22nd 2008, 04:39 AM
You fail to see the grammatical gymnastics you are employing to contort a sentence beyond its plain meaning, IMO. Thus your confusing interpretation of "the fathers" - not to say that you are confused (that would be mean) but that your interpretation is confusing. It doesn't really make sense, in other words.

I see the "election" as their elected purpose or function, not their predestination. In other words, many generations will have wandered and rejected the Lord - but He will keep His promise to their fathers. He loves them with a prophetic, covenental love - seeing their destiny as a nation (future) and remembering HIs promise to their fathers (covenental) - He will establish them again in the fullness of gifts and calling that are irrevocable.

You skipped over "for your sake" - I also see two groups, but the "your sake" are the Gentile nations that were blessed by the failure of Israel by being grafted into the Hebrew olive tree. Or are you implying that the blindness of all enemies of the gospel, regardless of ethnicity, is for the sake of all the redeemed, regardless of ethnicity? It sounds nice, but it makes no sense.

Salvation has always been individual. You need again to read the intro to this in Romanas 9, you will see that no one was ever saved by nationality - whether Jew or Gentile. We are saved by grace, not race.

Paul

the rookie
Apr 22nd 2008, 04:51 AM
Salvation has always been individual. You need again to read the intro to this in Romanas 9, you will see that no one was ever saved by nationality - whether Jew or Gentile. We are saved by grace, not race.

Paul

When did I mention otherwise? On almost every post, in almost every conversation we have had on this subject, I have affirmed that. We can't make any progress if you are going to insist on going in circles, rebutting things I said with retorts to things I didn't say.

That said, there's lots in the intro to Romans 9 that sets the context of the passage beyond verse 6. The first five verses are by no means negated by that verse, as you continually insist.

wpm
Apr 22nd 2008, 01:41 PM
When did I mention otherwise? On almost every post, in almost every conversation we have had on this subject, I have affirmed that. We can't make any progress if you are going to insist on going in circles, rebutting things I said with retorts to things I didn't say.

That said, there's lots in the intro to Romans 9 that sets the context of the passage beyond verse 6. The first five verses are by no means negated by that verse, as you continually insist.

I am not attributing anything to you that you have not argued over the yrs. You are proposing that every single Jew because of their natural birth will be saved at the end. I am saying race means absolutely nothing in this NT era. Circumsion avails nothing today.

Paul

quiet dove
Apr 22nd 2008, 04:26 PM
I am not attributing anything to you that you have not argued over the yrs. You are proposing that every single Jew because of their natural birth will be saved at the end. I am saying race means absolutely nothing in this NT era. Circumsion avails nothing today.

Paul

Sorry to jump in, but I have made the same point and that people get save 'by race' is not what has been said!

What has been said by me and others is that all of Israel will get saved. THROUGH JESUS CHRIST, THE SAME WAY THE REST OF US GOT SAVED. Their race is not saving them, Jesus is. But all of Israel, will upon His return, recognize Him who they pierced. JESUS! And that is how they will get saved, JESUS.

And I am not trying to team up on you here, the rookie and I don't even have the same POV.

Anyway, I have quoted the verses before so no point in going back through it again. We see them differently. :hug:

IPet2_9
Apr 22nd 2008, 04:35 PM
The end result of the belief you are advancing is that you DO get saved by race. Look what you're saying: if you are Gentile, you have to accept Jesus, now, or you go to Hell. Some will do that, some won't. But if you are Israel, you have no free will, you WILL accept Jesus Christ--either now, or at Jesus' coming. Either way, you don't go to Hell. The fact of the matter is, in the end you two are saying that race DOES play a role in salvation.

tgallison
Apr 22nd 2008, 04:41 PM
The 144K Jews are a historical pictured the Jews who came to faith first, before the Gentiles began to be included in the great NT harvest.

Rev 7 & 14 show a panoramic history of Salvation of all men, the Jew first, then the Gentile.

Remember, Rev 14 shows the 144K in heaven, redeemed from the earth, and they are the "firstfruits" of God, not "the lastfruits", as many modern-day teachers attempt to place them.

Seeing the 144k in their proper setting, removes the conflicted result your question generates, when the 144K are misplaced at the end of time.

Greetings David Taylor

Matthew 19:28 "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

terrell

ShirleyFord
Apr 22nd 2008, 04:54 PM
Sorry to jump in, but I have made the same point and that people get save 'by race' is not what has been said!

What has been said by me and others is that all of Israel will get saved. THROUGH JESUS CHRIST, THE SAME WAY THE REST OF US GOT SAVED. Their race is not saving them, Jesus is. But all of Israel, will upon His return, recognize Him who they pierced. JESUS! And that is how they will get saved, JESUS.

QD,

But you do have the natural Jews getting saved differently than how any of us here did.

" But all of Israel, will upon His return, recognize Him who they pierced. JESUS! And that is how they will get saved, JESUS."

None of us were saved by recognizing Jesus when He bodily returns. He hasn't returned yet. But we are saved, nonetheless.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Notice that Jesus says that every eye shall see him including those who pierced him. And it is all kindreds of the earth that shall wail because of him.

This Scripture doesn't mention that only those who pierced Jesus will see him.

Nor does it say that those who pierced Him will recognize Him.

Nothing is said about their wailing because of seeing Jesus saves them. If that is the case, then all people alive at the time of the Second Coming of Christ will be saved when they see Him since it says "all kindreds of the earth".


Shirley

John146
Apr 22nd 2008, 04:57 PM
From God's perspective, there was Israel. Yet, from the Father's perspective, there was Ephraim and Judah. Both were true. There was "one body" (metaphorically) with different tribes. God seemed to care about and communicate with the different tribes, appoint different tribes for different functions, etc.

We see the same thing today - one body, many "tribes". To imagine that God doesn't see a Lutheran church (and its role in the body) or the Charismatic church (ditto) is to imagine a body with no "parts". I guess God one could imagine that God sees us as a big blob with no distinctions; I would rather be more precise in defining the idea of a "body" from scripture.

Does God "see" denominations related to salvation? Of course not. I have to imagine that you meant to say that, because the alternative, logically, is quite ridiculous. In other words, I am sure that God is well aware of denominational realities within the body of Christ and, as the sovereign God, probably had a little to do with it.


Then what in the world is the "unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God" about? Is reconciliation only an ethereal spiritual reality with no substance - or is there any functional reality to the God who desires to reconcile all things to Himself?

In other words, if a saved Baptist despises the tongues-speaking Charismatic, you would label that "reconciliation"?

Um, how?


Really? When is the last time you interacted with a Messianic Congregation? My contention isn't necessarily to relegate this to a future event as much as I would like to point out the obvious - that there is a process involved, within the natural order, and that there is still a little ways to go.

In other words, if Fred goes to divorce court and state emphatically that my wife and I are "reconciled" and the judge looks at him funny and he smiles back and says, "by the blood of Christ!"...well, she'll probably get all the assets and custody of the kids.

Reconciliation, biblically, actually happens when two entities that couldn't coexist before both can (through the blood of Christ or salvation) and do (through transformation or sanctification).

You seem to think that "can" and "do" are automatic, synonymous realities without really explaining how this could be so.

It's pretty obvious that we are not talking about the same thing here. I gave you clear scripture that says Jew and Gentile believers are indeed reconciled to God and to each other by the cross (Eph 2:13-16). Do you disagree with that?

timmyb
Apr 22nd 2008, 05:07 PM
It's pretty obvious that we are not talking about the same thing here. I gave you clear scripture that says Jew and Gentile believers are indeed reconciled to God and to each other by the cross (Eph 2:13-16). Do you disagree with that?

I disagree because believers have yet to believe that verse and apply it the wall of separation is gone but the problem is that we have put it back and it's going to take more than quoting scripture to see the reality of the one new man truly come to pass.... it's the same principle as the veil in 2 Corinthians 3... he removed the wall of separation so now we can become reconciled... but that doesn't mean that we have... are we brothers in the faith... scripture says so, but our attitudes say otherwise. So, what's got to change... The problem with your argument is you're trying to say that things have already happened and the reality is that it hasn't... just as the Jews have replaced the veil, we have replaced the wall... 2000 years of persecution against the Jews have shown that... we are only in the beginning of the reconciliation process... There is no Jew or Gentile but I assure you that for little over a hundred years here in the South water fountains were labeled white or colored. Although the Bible said there is no black and white, in the South we saw otherwise. There were black churches and white churches. Although, socially that isn't the case.. throughout much of the Bible Belt that is still the case. You may have a racially diverse church here and there but for the most part churches are still separated by race. The principle of being one is there... but the application of it is sorely lacking. The Gentiles, although the Bible says we are one, still have yet to come into agreement with our responsibility to agree with that and seek reconciliation with each other. Let alone the Jewish people.

John146
Apr 22nd 2008, 05:08 PM
You fail to see the 2 groups in view here.

Romans 11:28 addresses this saying, speaking of natural Israel first, “As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election,they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.”

These two groups have two different standings. Paul is not saying that the Christ-rejecting Jews “are beloved for the fathers' sakes,” no. Plainly, the overall rebellious nation of Israel is depicted here as being “enemies” of “the Gospel.” However, the elect Israelis ("the election") are different, those that are born again of the Spirit of God – they “are beloved for the fathers' sakes.”

Every time we are faced with the term “the election” it is always carefully and strictly restricted to those that belong to Christ through faith. In the case of Israel, it refers to “the remnant” of natural Israel, or “them that turn from transgression in Jacob.” They alone are the elect; they alone are the recipients of “the election” of God. This in itself is a significant manifestation of the grace of God, since the Jews as a nation rejected their King; they rejected their Messiah. None of them deserved grace. God could have easily turned His back on every Jew after the crucifixion. However, because of their “fathers,” because of their love of God, He has continued to manifest His grace through a choice holy Israeli remnant, as He has also through a holy Gentile remnant – all being contained within the one “good olive tree.”

Paul

I agree. Well said.

Eric

John146
Apr 22nd 2008, 05:12 PM
it's the same principle as the veil in 2 Corinthians 3... he removed the wall of separation so now we can become reconciled... but that doesn't mean that we have... are we brothers in the faith... scripture says so, but our attitudes say otherwise. So, what's got to change... The problem with your argument is you're trying to say that things have already happened and the reality is that it hasn't...

Why are you arguing with clear scripture? I notice that you don't back up your opinions with scripture. Let's allow the scripture to speak for itself.

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: - Eph 2:13-16

This passage says that Christ has MADE (past tense) both (Jew and Gentile believers) one. Yet you say it hasn't happened?



just as the Jews have replaced the veil, we have replaced the wall... 2000 years of persecution against the Jews have shown that... we are only in the beginning of the reconciliation process... There is no Jew or Gentile but I assure you that for little over a hundred years here in the South water fountains were labeled white or colored. Although the Bible said there is no black and white, in the South we saw otherwise. There were black churches and white churches. Although, socially that isn't the case.. throughout much of the Bible Belt that is still the case. You may have a racially diverse church here and there but for the most part churches are still separated by race. The principle of being one is there... but the application of it is sorely lacking. The Gentiles, although the Bible says we are one, still have yet to come into agreement with our responsibility to agree with that and seek reconciliation with each other. Let alone the Jewish people.Even though the Bible says it, you still disagree with it. I'm not willing to do that.

timmyb
Apr 22nd 2008, 05:20 PM
You shall know them by their fruits. Matthew 7:16

you can quote scripture to me all day long... where's the fruit in the church today?

I totally agree with the scripture you're quoting, my argument is the reality of the application of those scriptures in the church today.

Believe me although you will never hear it from someone who calls themselves a Christian... we really don't believe the Bible.... We really don't believe that there is a measure of effort we have to put to this... There is a principle of participation involved in us becoming one... just because brothers are born into the same family and the scripture says they are supposed to be loving each other doesn't mean they will... there is a choice they have to make everyday to love each other and overlook each other's faults.

When we read the Bible concerning a verse like that... we need to agree with it and simply do it. There is a measure of the application of the Jew and the Gentile becoming one that the majority of the Church has YET to APPLY. The Scriptures are valid. I am not arguing against your scripture refrences... But where is the fruit of the Church's application of the verses?....

John146
Apr 22nd 2008, 05:20 PM
Sorry to jump in, but I have made the same point and that people get save 'by race' is not what has been said!

What has been said by me and others is that all of Israel will get saved. THROUGH JESUS CHRIST, THE SAME WAY THE REST OF US GOT SAVED. Their race is not saving them, Jesus is. But all of Israel, will upon His return, recognize Him who they pierced. JESUS! And that is how they will get saved, JESUS.

And I am not trying to team up on you here, the rookie and I don't even have the same POV.

Anyway, I have quoted the verses before so no point in going back through it again. We see them differently. :hug:

The way I see it is that the only way that could reasonably happen (every person in Israel being saved) is if there was no requirement for one to choose to humble themselves and repent of their sins and put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Can you explain to me how it can be that every single person in Israel will one day do that? If you say it's because they see Him coming and realize they were wrong about Him, then what about everyone else from other nations who also see Him? Will every single unbeliever in the world put their faith and trust in Christ once they see Him come? Or will it be too late, as the Bible teaches?

One other thing. Does the following passage only refer to Gentile unbelievers?

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. - 2 Thess 1:7-10

Are Israelite unbelievers not included among those who "know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"?

IPet2_9
Apr 22nd 2008, 05:28 PM
I disagreed with timmyb earlier in the thread; now I'm going to back him up.

Allow me to start with I Corinthians 12 (the parts-of-the-body Scripture):

I Cor 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!"

I emphasize that last verse, 21. And verse 15. That is what the Church is doing. We have: a) the foot saying to the body, "I do not belong to the body," and b) the eye saying to the hand, "I don't need you." Scripture says you can't do that. No one's arguing that. But nevertheless that is what is happening.

One thing we need to realize about Paul's letters to the Gentiles (that would include Romans and the Corinthians): just as the Jews were trying to exclude Gentiles from the faith, the Gentiles were doing the exact same thing, excluding the Jews from the faith. Paul's going to both camps and going, "Look guys, you are one body. Get used to it." You can say the sky is purple, but that ain't going to make the sky purple.

ShirleyFord
Apr 22nd 2008, 05:38 PM
I disagreed with timmyb earlier in the thread; now I'm going to back him up.

Allow me to start with I Corinthians 12 (the parts-of-the-body Scripture):

I Cor 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!"

I emphasize that last verse, 21. And verse 15. That is what the Church is doing. We have: a) the foot saying to the body, "I do not belong to the body," and b) the eye saying to the hand, "I don't need you." Scripture says you can't do that. No one's arguing that. But nevertheless that is what is happening.

One thing we need to realize about Paul's letters to the Gentiles (that would include Romans and the Corinthians): just as the Jews were trying to exclude Gentiles from the faith, the Gentiles were doing the exact same thing, excluding the Jews from the faith. Paul's going to both camps and going, "Look guys, you are one body. Get used to it." You can say the sky is purple, but that ain't going to make the sky purple.

But you will agree that Paul is speaking to those members of the Church, both Jews and Gentiles, who were already saved in the 1st century and not to a group of unsaved Jews who some teach will not be saved until they recognize Jesus at His Second Coming.

Shirley

IPet2_9
Apr 22nd 2008, 05:45 PM
Absolutely. Acts 3 speaks of unsaved Jews not being part of the body:

Acts 3:22 For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.'

timmyb
Apr 22nd 2008, 05:51 PM
Absolutely. Acts 3 speaks of unsaved Jews not being part of the body:

Acts 3:22 For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.'

I agree with that wholeheartedly....

timmyb
Apr 22nd 2008, 06:10 PM
But you will agree that Paul is speaking to those members of the Church, both Jews and Gentiles, who were already saved in the 1st century and not to a group of unsaved Jews who some teach will not be saved until they recognize Jesus at His Second Coming.

Shirley

Jesus is still the way the truth and the life and NO one comes unto the father but by him

ShirleyFord
Apr 22nd 2008, 06:46 PM
Absolutely. Acts 3 speaks of unsaved Jews not being part of the body:

Acts 3:22 For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.'

Great Scripture!

Peter quotes the prophecy of Moses concerning Jesus. And he is speaking directly to only Jews, the descendents of those who heard Moses speak this prophecy, who have rejected Jesus.

12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.


These unsaved Jews were not part of the Church. Peter didn't say anything about them still being God's chosen people in their unsaved sinful state. They were cut off from God, as Moses had prophecied.

But as we continue reading the account in Acts 4, we find that 5000 men out of that group of unsaved Jews who heard Peter preach the gospel of Jesus Christ that day were saved.

4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.



Shirley

timmyb
Apr 22nd 2008, 06:54 PM
proof that God has not totally cast off his people.. and that he still has a purpose for the Jewish people

the rookie
Apr 22nd 2008, 08:27 PM
I am not attributing anything to you that you have not argued over the yrs. You are proposing that every single Jew because of their natural birth will be saved at the end. I am saying race means absolutely nothing in this NT era. Circumsion avails nothing today.

Paul

Why not furnish one quote where I assert that a Jew, "because of their natural birth will be saved at the end."

An entire nation will be saved after the Second Coming. It just so happens that, because of the circumstances of the last 3 1/2 years, it will be Israel.

In other words, God could set up a context in which, miraculously, the entire nation of the United States has a comprehensive revival and every American is saved. The process of salvation (by faith through grace that none may boast) is the same as it has always been throughout redemptive history - it just happens in a dramatic, comprehensive fashion. Like, for example, the Welsh revival - only, it happens in Jerusalem with the Jews.

So, what I am looking for, is a quote by me that proves that I am asserting that Israel will be saved in a manner that is outside of the boundaries of orthodox Christian faith.

the rookie
Apr 22nd 2008, 08:35 PM
It's pretty obvious that we are not talking about the same thing here. I gave you clear scripture that says Jew and Gentile believers are indeed reconciled to God and to each other by the cross (Eph 2:13-16). Do you disagree with that?

Of course we're not talking about the same thing. I believe that reconciliation is both an instantaneous, spiritual reality (so, the answer to the above is "yes") AND a process in which "emnity" will be put to death. Verse 14 is past; verse 16 is future.

You're only talking about the spiritual reality as if there is no functional, practical outworking - as if justification and sanctification are both the same thing happening at the same time. I find that happens often in these discussions - sanctification and the process of transformation and reconciliation are always avoided and the default is to the instantaneous realities of the new birth.

So, now that we know that we are on the same page with justification and imputed righteousness (and reconciliation through the blood of Jesus), why not discuss sanctification, transformation, and reconciliation according to the biblical picture of "the good work that is begun AND finished" over the course of both the individual's lifetime and the course of redemptive history?

the rookie
Apr 22nd 2008, 08:39 PM
Does the following passage only refer to Gentile unbelievers?

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. - 2 Thess 1:7-10

Are Israelite unbelievers not included among those who "know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"?

Does that passage say "them" or "all"?

Are you inserting, because of your paradigm, a requirement or a comprehensive totality to that passage that isn't demanded?

For example, why are there three types of people mentioned in the following passage:

"And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,"

IPet2_9
Apr 22nd 2008, 08:41 PM
An entire nation will be saved after the Second Coming. It just so happens that, because of the circumstances of the last 3 1/2 years, it will be Israel.

Sounds like we are ruling out that Israel is that of Jews by natural birth. I would further assert that the Israel we are talking about is not that political entity in the Middle East with man-made borders, either. Israel didn't even exist as a country when the NT was written.

John146
Apr 22nd 2008, 09:11 PM
Why not furnish one quote where I assert that a Jew, "because of their natural birth will be saved at the end."

An entire nation will be saved after the Second Coming. It just so happens that, because of the circumstances of the last 3 1/2 years, it will be Israel.

And why Israel and not Russia? What is it that ensures that every person in Israel will be saved?



In other words, God could set up a context in which, miraculously, the entire nation of the United States has a comprehensive revival and every American is saved. The process of salvation (by faith through grace that none may boast) is the same as it has always been throughout redemptive history - it just happens in a dramatic, comprehensive fashion. Like, for example, the Welsh revival - only, it happens in Jerusalem with the Jews.And why would God do this only for Israel or Jerusalem?



So, what I am looking for, is a quote by me that proves that I am asserting that Israel will be saved in a manner that is outside of the boundaries of orthodox Christian faith.This post I'm replying to, for example. You're saying God "could set up a context in which, miraculously, the entire nation of the United States has a comprehensive revival and every American is saved.". Okay, and what in scripture would tell us that God saves people corporately like this rather than individually?

John146
Apr 22nd 2008, 09:20 PM
Does that passage say "them" or "all"?

Are you inserting, because of your paradigm, a requirement or a comprehensive totality to that passage that isn't demanded?

I don't believe so. Only true believers are those who know God and obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. To me, that means Christ will be taking vengeance on everyone else. All unbelievers, in other words. Jesus said, "He that is not with me is against me" (Matt 12:30, Luke 11:23).




For example, why are there three types of people mentioned in the following passage:

"And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,"I don't see three types of people there, I see two. The prophets and the rest of the saints. Those who fear His name includes all believers, including prophets.

Do you see two types of people in the following verse or one?

5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. - Rev 19:5

Seems clear to me that "all ye his servants" and "ye that fear him" are one and the same. Just two different ways of referring to God's people.

John146
Apr 22nd 2008, 09:29 PM
Of course we're not talking about the same thing. I believe that reconciliation is both an instantaneous, spiritual reality (so, the answer to the above is "yes") AND a process in which "emnity" will be put to death. Verse 14 is past; verse 16 is future.

Verse 16 is not future. How does "having slain (past tense) the enmity thereby" refer to the future? If it was future, it would have said "and will slay the enmity thereby".



You're only talking about the spiritual reality as if there is no functional, practical outworking - as if justification and sanctification are both the same thing happening at the same time. I find that happens often in these discussions - sanctification and the process of transformation and reconciliation are always avoided and the default is to the instantaneous realities of the new birth.

So, now that we know that we are on the same page with justification and imputed righteousness (and reconciliation through the blood of Jesus), why not discuss sanctification, transformation, and reconciliation according to the biblical picture of "the good work that is begun AND finished" over the course of both the individual's lifetime and the course of redemptive history?

Okay, go ahead. What is your point? Spell it out for me. Are you trying to say that Christ won't return until everyone in the church is in perfect unity or something else? I'm not following you.

timmyb
Apr 22nd 2008, 09:50 PM
that's pretty much what he's talking about

wpm
Apr 22nd 2008, 10:37 PM
Why not furnish one quote where I assert that a Jew, "because of their natural birth will be saved at the end."

An entire nation will be saved after the Second Coming. It just so happens that, because of the circumstances of the last 3 1/2 years, it will be Israel.

In other words, God could set up a context in which, miraculously, the entire nation of the United States has a comprehensive revival and every American is saved. The process of salvation (by faith through grace that none may boast) is the same as it has always been throughout redemptive history - it just happens in a dramatic, comprehensive fashion. Like, for example, the Welsh revival - only, it happens in Jerusalem with the Jews.

So, what I am looking for, is a quote by me that proves that I am asserting that Israel will be saved in a manner that is outside of the boundaries of orthodox Christian faith.

The Welsh Revival never saved all of Wales, there has always only been a remnant. The remnant in Israel will indeed be saved. You are promoting something that Paul never intended.

Rom 11:5-7 touches this, "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."

Again there is believing Jews (the election) and unbelieving Jews (the blinded). There was, is and will be "a remnant according to the election of grace." That is the way it has always been.

Paul

the rookie
Apr 22nd 2008, 11:05 PM
The Welsh Revival never saved all of Wales, there has always only been a remnant. The remnant in Israel will indeed be saved. You are promoting something that Paul never intended.

*sigh* No, I'm not. I know that the Welsh revival never saved all of Wales - I was using it as a local example for an Irishman to connect with a sudden, speedy in-breaking of the power of God to save a large group of people. I fully agree with what you just said, actually! :D


Rom 11:5-7 touches this, "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."

Again there is believing Jews (the election) and unbelieving Jews (the blinded). There was, is and will be "a remnant according to the election of grace." That is the way it has always been.

Paul

Again, I agree! It's just that the remnant will be the only group of Jews that survives the sword, as I quoted a ton of pages ago on this thread. Then the remnant (which then constitutes "all of Israel" alive at that time), gets saved.

I'm not saying anything different than Paul the Apostle or Paul the Irishman in that regard. Where we disagree is on timing, not methodology.

the rookie
Apr 22nd 2008, 11:09 PM
And why Israel and not Russia? What is it that ensures that every person in Israel will be saved?

A prophetic word from Paul the apostle.


And why would God do this only for Israel or Jerusalem?

Because of His covenant promise to the "fathers" and to provoke the nations that remain to jealousy (Zech. 8 & 14).


This post I'm replying to, for example. You're saying God "could set up a context in which, miraculously, the entire nation of the United States has a comprehensive revival and every American is saved.". Okay, and what in scripture would tell us that God saves people corporately like this rather than individually?

Acts 3:19 - 21.

During "times of refreshing" (i.e. revival) large numbers of people are very quickly added to the corporate whole. Other than that, I'm not saying what you think I am.

the rookie
Apr 22nd 2008, 11:11 PM
I don't believe so. Only true believers are those who know God and obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. To me, that means Christ will be taking vengeance on everyone else. All unbelievers, in other words. Jesus said, "He that is not with me is against me" (Matt 12:30, Luke 11:23).

Again, that sounds like your paradigm, which places a demand on that passage that isn't there. Since you can't prove otherwise, I'll take my paradigm on that one. Quoting another passage only proves that you are applying your paradigm to the verse rather than exegeting the passage grammatically / historically.


I don't see three types of people there, I see two. The prophets and the rest of the saints. Those who fear His name includes all believers, including prophets.

Do you see two types of people in the following verse or one?

5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. - Rev 19:5

Seems clear to me that "all ye his servants" and "ye that fear him" are one and the same. Just two different ways of referring to God's people.

See the above paragraph.

the rookie
Apr 22nd 2008, 11:14 PM
Verse 16 is not future. How does "having slain (past tense) the enmity thereby" refer to the future? If it was future, it would have said "and will slay the enmity thereby".

"...and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body (future) through the cross (the means to do so), thereby putting to death the emnity (the result)."




Okay, go ahead. What is your point? Spell it out for me. Are you trying to say that Christ won't return until everyone in the church is in perfect unity or something else? I'm not following you.

I'm trying to say that reconciliation is a process that is knit to the tenderness of our heart towards God and man - not just an automatic, spiritual reality.

David Taylor
Apr 23rd 2008, 12:37 AM
"...and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body (future) through the cross (the means to do so), thereby putting to death the emnity (the result)."




Again, like Eric, I don't see the future tense you are overlaying over that passage D.

"one body through the cross" happened at Calvary, in the past....not in the future as you insert.

"having slain (past tense) the enmity thereby"
and
"one body through the cross"

are both past-tense grammar and events.

timmyb
Apr 23rd 2008, 01:08 AM
that he might.... sounds like future tense to me

ShirleyFord
Apr 23rd 2008, 01:53 AM
that he might.... sounds like future tense to me

You have to read it in context with the rest of the verse.

I could say, I married my husband 47 years ago so "that he might" become my husband.

The phrase alone "that he might" with out the rest of the sentence certainly would sound futuristic. But when read in what I actually said in the complete sentence that I spoke, it is clear "that he might" is past tense.

The complete sentence of Ephesians 2:16 begins in v. 11 and continues through v. 17

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.


There can be no mistake when we read the complete sentence where v. 16 is found, that all of v. 16 is a past event.


Shirley

timmyb
Apr 23rd 2008, 01:57 AM
the problem is the visual reality of the 'one new man' isn't there

the visual reality of you and your husband being married is there...

the difference... a commitment between the two parties the Jew and the Church haven't made any such commitment or else we would be one... The only way that will happen is when the Church becomes one again and provoke the Jew to jealousy and the reality of the one new man becomes VISIBLE reality...

reality is... the Church itself isn't one... so how is there one new man between Jew and the Church?

ShirleyFord
Apr 23rd 2008, 02:20 AM
the problem is the visual reality of the 'one new man' isn't there

the visual reality of you and your husband being married is there...

the difference... a commitment between the two parties the Jew and the Church haven't made any such commitment or else we would be one... The only way that will happen is when the Church becomes one again and provoke the Jew to jealousy and the reality of the one new man becomes VISIBLE reality...

reality is... the Church itself isn't one... so how is there one new man between Jew and the Church?

Jesus dying on the cross to break down the middle wall of partition that had separated Gentiles from Jews is "visible reality", a done deal. Gentiles today and since the cross can come to God through Christ and become His people the same way that Jews have always been able to come to God through Christ and become His people, since Abraham. It is a done deal, a visible reality. We see it throughout the book of Acts, the NT era.


Shirley

wpm
Apr 23rd 2008, 04:45 AM
*sigh* No, I'm not. I know that the Welsh revival never saved all of Wales - I was using it as a local example for an Irishman to connect with a sudden, speedy in-breaking of the power of God to save a large group of people. I fully agree with what you just said, actually! :D



Again, I agree! It's just that the remnant will be the only group of Jews that survives the sword, as I quoted a ton of pages ago on this thread. Then the remnant (which then constitutes "all of Israel" alive at that time), gets saved.

I'm not saying anything different than Paul the Apostle or Paul the Irishman in that regard. Where we disagree is on timing, not methodology.

There has always been 2 types of Jew amongst Israel, there always will be - saved and lost. Just like there has always been 2 types of person amongst the Gentiles. Rom 9-11 makes that clear.

Paul

Merton
Apr 23rd 2008, 07:50 AM
the problem is the visual reality of the 'one new man' isn't there

the visual reality of you and your husband being married is there...

the difference... a commitment between the two parties the Jew and the Church haven't made any such commitment or else we would be one... The only way that will happen is when the Church becomes one again and provoke the Jew to jealousy and the reality of the one new man becomes VISIBLE reality...

reality is... the Church itself isn't one... so how is there one new man between Jew and the Church?

Timmy,

Christ did not join the Jew with the Gentile at the cross.

Christ instituted a whole new creation beginning with Himself as the first born of it.

Just what governs the destinations of both Jew and Gentile depends on their having faith in Christ (something one can not do by oneself Heb.12:2) and becoming a part of that one new creation.

In Acts and elsewhere (acts 8 Acts 10) God is shown to particularly point out that there is NOW no distinction between Jew and Gentile in the one new man and any attempt to drive a wedge between the believers of the one new man is both an act of unbelief and a grievious sin against Him who paid the price to join all believers together as one.

Now the secret to the dissolving of all differences of flesh and opinion is in being in fellowship personally with the Lord, and when we have to do with other members of the body of Christ who do the same then we find that there is no division, no separation, no differences, as they all fade away into insignificance.

Actually, the young struggle with it until they see it as it really is, and this requires a turning away from the things of the flesh over which men fight, and revelation from the Throne, not from any church positional doctrine.

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Merton.

timmyb
Apr 23rd 2008, 12:23 PM
Timmy,

Christ did not join the Jew with the Gentile at the cross.

Christ instituted a whole new creation beginning with Himself as the first born of it.

Just what governs the destinations of both Jew and Gentile depends on their having faith in Christ (something one can not do by oneself Heb.12:2) and becoming a part of that one new creation.

In Acts and elsewhere (acts 8 Acts 10) God is shown to particularly point out that there is NOW no distinction between Jew and Gentile in the one new man and any attempt to drive a wedge between the believers of the one new man is both an act of unbelief and a grievious sin against Him who paid the price to join all believers together as one.

Now the secret to the dissolving of all differences of flesh and opinion is in being in fellowship personally with the Lord, and when we have to do with other members of the body of Christ who do the same then we find that there is no division, no separation, no differences, as they all fade away into insignificance.

Actually, the young struggle with it until they see it as it really is, and this requires a turning away from the things of the flesh over which men fight, and revelation from the Throne, not from any church positional doctrine.

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Merton.

from who's perspective...

I AM NOT DEBATING SCRIPTURE....

my argument is the Church's application to scripture and their commitment to agree with the 'one new man' reality... were the jew and gentile one while the church was persecuting the Jews for 2000 years? Were white and black one during segregation in the South?

The fact is while one side claims salvation through Christ and the other does not. Has the one side made a commitment to see the plans and purposes of God come to pass to pray for the Jewish person to come to salvation? Has the church in a big way reached out to the Jewish people for the purposes of salvation? Or have we felt sorry for them and shied away from preaching the gospel to them and seeing them saved and thereby condemning them to a far worse death than the ones their enemies plan to inflict upon them?

It's the same as the marriage principle. Two becoming one, but that takes a COMMITMENT on BOTH sides to do that.

Can two walk together unless they be agreed? Amos 3:3

The man has to leave his mother and father and 'be joined' to his wife (commitment) and it's then they become one flesh. No one is willing to step out and be willing to join the other... why? because the church itself isn't one to begin with. There has to be two distinct entities. Jew and the Church and right now the Church can't even decide on the carpets for the fellowship hall let alone say that we are one!

I agree with everything you are saying... but you're ignoring what I'm saying... scripture is valid and irrefutable... but where's the church's fruit of the application of the scripture?

the rookie
Apr 23rd 2008, 01:02 PM
There has always been 2 types of Jew amongst Israel, there always will be - saved and lost. Just like there has always been 2 types of person amongst the Gentiles. Rom 9-11 makes that clear.

Paul

Are we even having a discussion anymore or are you just throwing phrases out there? This seems like the product of "Paulbot 3000" versus someone that is actually thinking about and responding to things I am actually taking the time to write.

Are there any other sparkling pearls of obviousness that you would like to share?

How about, "There have always been 2 types of humans: alive ones and dead ones. The Bible, and empirical observation, makes the clear."

If I remember right, the last post (which you mysteriously quoted for some thematic reason that for now remains an enigma wrapped in a procedure) I wrote stated that I agree with you. You must have liked the feeling, and typed something else I agree with? Help me here?

the rookie
Apr 23rd 2008, 01:07 PM
Again, like Eric, I don't see the future tense you are overlaying over that passage D.

"one body through the cross" happened at Calvary, in the past....not in the future as you insert.

"having slain (past tense) the enmity thereby"
and
"one body through the cross"

are both past-tense grammar and events.

Again, I think that the grammar is ambiguous enough that one's paradigm dictates interpretation more than demands within the passage itself.

And, since I do not see reconciliation solely as an instantaneous process (for scriptural and common sense reasons that, for some reason, haven't been addressed in response) I read the passage and see ample room for a future "fullness" to come. In fact, Paul confirms my suspicion in well, the rest of the letter. (I was going to quote another passage from Ephesians, when it occurred to me that I would be quoting the rest of the book)

For example, one could start with Eph. 3:16-19 as Paul's analysis of the process of reconciliation, move on to Eph. 4 as the process is given more definition, then shift to Eph. 5 as the culmination of the process is explained before ending with Eph. 6 and the hindrances to the process.

the rookie
Apr 23rd 2008, 01:08 PM
You have to read it in context with the rest of the verse.

As I said, you also have to read it in context with....the rest of the book. :D

timmyb
Apr 23rd 2008, 01:14 PM
Just as the Pharisees made void the law of God the Church at large has made void the law of Christ by not agreeing with his heart for the Jewish people...

John146
Apr 23rd 2008, 01:47 PM
A prophetic word from Paul the apostle.

According to your interpretation, but it seems like you see Paul's statement in Romans 11:26 as his own prophecy regarding the distant future. I see it as him referencing the prophecy from Isaiah 59:20-21, which prophesied the coming Deliverer who would die for the sins of the world, including Israel, so that whosoever believed in Him, Jew or Gentile, would not perish and have everlasting life through the new covenant of His shed blood on the cross.



Because of His covenant promise to the "fathers" and to provoke the nations that remain to jealousy (Zech. 8 & 14).

And, of course, I disagree that anyone (any mortals) remains after the second coming of Christ.



Acts 3:19 - 21.

During "times of refreshing" (i.e. revival) large numbers of people are very quickly added to the corporate whole. Other than that, I'm not saying what you think I am.

Are you not saying that everyone alive in Israel when Christ returns will be saved, without exception? If so, then you are indeed saying what I think you are.

John146
Apr 23rd 2008, 01:53 PM
Again, that sounds like your paradigm, which places a demand on that passage that isn't there. Since you can't prove otherwise, I'll take my paradigm on that one. Quoting another passage only proves that you are applying your paradigm to the verse rather than exegeting the passage grammatically / historically.

I gave you my honest interpretation of the passage. My paradigm has nothing to do with it. I don't see how any unbelievers are not included among those who do not know God or obey the gospel of Christ. My being amil has nothing to do with seeing it that way. Can you explain to me how any unbelievers can be excluded from those who don't know God and obey the gospel?

I see two groups mentioned in 2 Thess 1:7-10 and I believe everyone falls within one of the two groups.

Group 1: Them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

Group 2: his saints, all them that believe

timmyb
Apr 23rd 2008, 02:07 PM
John,

All Israel means ALL Israel... no exceptions.... there will be a time on earth where every Jew alive will accept Christ as Savior... as refrenced by Romans 11:26.... Why would Paul say it as prophecy if it had already happened? He is saying that it WILL happen. All Israel WILL be saved. Doesn't sound like he's talking about the past to me.

ShirleyFord
Apr 23rd 2008, 02:10 PM
from who's perspective...

I AM NOT DEBATING SCRIPTURE....

my argument is the Church's application to scripture and their commitment to agree with the 'one new man' reality... were the jew and gentile one while the church was persecuting the Jews for 2000 years?

Where do you get the idea that the true Church is made up of only Gentiles?

The first true Church in the Bible was made up of only Hebrews, going all the way back to Genesis. The New Testament Church was solely Jewish from Acts 1 through Acts 7 with not one Gentile. Then from Acts 8 - 28 we find the Church made up of both Gentiles and Jews.

Gentiles calling themselves "Christians" and "God's Church" have persecuted many people in the name of God. Hitler didn't just persecute the Jewish race. He persecuted all races of people that were not white and those of other religions. And he persecuted even those of Protestantism who opposed any of his agenda to create one new superior race of people, one new society of people with superior knowledge and superior health and a supereor know-how to gain the wealth of this world in which to build his global kingdom. He detested the poverty stricken and disease and deformity stricken. These were usually the first to be eliminated from his perfect world that he was trying to create.



Were white and black one during segregation in the South?


You make it sound like that segregation only existed in the South. You need to read Black History from black authors who lived during the time of segregation between the white and the black. They tell of how segragation was prevelant throughout America and throughout North and South America, Europe and Africa.



The fact is while one side claims salvation through Christ and the other does not. Has the one side made a commitment to see the plans and purposes of God come to pass to pray for the Jewish person to come to salvation? Has the church in a big way reached out to the Jewish people for the purposes of salvation? Or have we felt sorry for them and shied away from preaching the gospel to them and seeing them saved and thereby condemning them to a far worse death than the ones their enemies plan to inflict upon them?


I believe all true Christians committed soley to Christ and His word will preach the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ to all they come in contact with who are unsaved with no hope. A person's race and religion will not stop them.


It's the same as the marriage principle. Two becoming one, but that takes a COMMITMENT on BOTH sides to do that.

Can two walk together unless they be agreed? Amos 3:3

The man has to leave his mother and father and 'be joined' to his wife (commitment) and it's then they become one flesh. No one is willing to step out and be willing to join the other... why? because the church itself isn't one to begin with. There has to be two distinct entities. Jew and the Church and right now the Church can't even decide on the carpets for the fellowship hall let alone say that we are one!

According to Jesus it is God who joins a man and woman together in marriage as one:

Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.


Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

9What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.



And let me tell you, after 47 years of marriage to one man, marriage is a lot more than a "committment" to one another just as salvation is much more than our "committment" to God.



Shirley

John146
Apr 23rd 2008, 02:22 PM
"...and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body (future) through the cross (the means to do so), thereby putting to death the emnity (the result)."

I believe you're missing the context. The context begins before that verse and then continues beyond it. Verse 14 says he made both one and had broken down the middle wall of partition between Jews and Gentiles. The reconciliation has been made. How? Through the cross. So, to say that the reconciliation does not occur until sometime in the future contradicts what verse 14 tells us. Read the verse that follows verse 16.

And came and preached (past tense) peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Where you have "thereby putting to death the enmity" as referring to the end result that will occur sometime in the future I believe it is more accurately interpreted "thereby having put to death the enmity (in the past)". He put to death the separation between people and God and between Jews and Gentiles. As each person, Jew or Gentile, is born again, they spiritually enter into the body of Christ and are automatically reconciled with other true believers, whether Jew or Gentile.

Let me ask you something. Did Jesus destroy the works of the devil in the past or not until sometime in the future? Because we see similar wording in 1 John 3:8. It says Jesus was manifested that he might destroy the works of the devil. Does this mean He failed to destroy the works of the devil when He was manifested or did He succeed in doing so and continues to do so as people continue to be born again? Did He succeed, and is He continuing to succeed, in spoiling the goods and house of the strong man or will He not do so until He returns?



I'm trying to say that reconciliation is a process that is knit to the tenderness of our heart towards God and man - not just an automatic, spiritual reality.

It can be both, depending on exactly what we're talking about. He made both (Jew and Gentile believers) one. That was an instantaneous result of His work on the cross. As each person is born again and enters the kingdom, the process continues.

IPet2_9
Apr 23rd 2008, 02:25 PM
I think it's safe to say the distinction between saved Jew and Gentile is gone now. Over the past 2000 years, Jews who have come to know Christ, and their descendants, are called Christian now. In fact, the single most defining characteristic of what we call "Jews" nowadays is their denial of Christ as the Messiah. Even the Jews themselves regard groups like Messianic Jews, Jews for Jesus, etc. as Gentiles.

I readily admit, there are rifts within the Church between black and white, Baptist and Catholic, rich and poor, etc. etc., but Jew and Gentile is not one of them. Jews get preferential treatment in the Church, if anything.

John146
Apr 23rd 2008, 02:27 PM
John,

All Israel means ALL Israel... no exceptions.... there will be a time on earth where every Jew alive will accept Christ as Savior... as refrenced by Romans 11:26.... Why would Paul say it as prophecy if it had already happened? He is saying that it WILL happen. All Israel WILL be saved. Doesn't sound like he's talking about the past to me.

Allow me to clarify my position. All Israel is saved, all Israel continues to be saved and when Christ returns, all Israel from all-time will have been saved. I don't see that Paul was saying that all the nation of Israel would be saved at some point in the future. I believe he was speaking of the true Israel, the good olive tree.

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. - Romans 9:6-8

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. - Gal 3:16

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

John146
Apr 23rd 2008, 02:31 PM
John,

All Israel means ALL Israel... no exceptions.... there will be a time on earth where every Jew alive will accept Christ as Savior... as refrenced by Romans 11:26.... Why would Paul say it as prophecy if it had already happened? He is saying that it WILL happen. All Israel WILL be saved. Doesn't sound like he's talking about the past to me.

Can you explain to me how it could be that every single person in Israel would all repent and put their faith in Christ at the same time? Seems like God would have to cause this to happen. But if that was the case, why would God do this for Israel and not the other nations?

John146
Apr 23rd 2008, 02:33 PM
the problem is the visual reality of the 'one new man' isn't there

the visual reality of you and your husband being married is there...

the difference... a commitment between the two parties the Jew and the Church haven't made any such commitment or else we would be one... The only way that will happen is when the Church becomes one again and provoke the Jew to jealousy and the reality of the one new man becomes VISIBLE reality...

reality is... the Church itself isn't one... so how is there one new man between Jew and the Church?

So, scripture says Christ has made both one, but Timmy says "No, He has not. It's up to us to be made one".

John146
Apr 23rd 2008, 02:40 PM
Are we even having a discussion anymore or are you just throwing phrases out there? This seems like the product of "Paulbot 3000" versus someone that is actually thinking about and responding to things I am actually taking the time to write.

Are there any other sparkling pearls of obviousness that you would like to share?

Was this kind of comment really called for, Rookie? You should send yourself to the "Chat with the Moderators" forum. ;)

wpm
Apr 23rd 2008, 02:41 PM
Are we even having a discussion anymore or are you just throwing phrases out there? This seems like the product of "Paulbot 3000" versus someone that is actually thinking about and responding to things I am actually taking the time to write.

Are there any other sparkling pearls of obviousness that you would like to share?

How about, "There have always been 2 types of humans: alive ones and dead ones. The Bible, and empirical observation, makes the clear."

If I remember right, the last post (which you mysteriously quoted for some thematic reason that for now remains an enigma wrapped in a procedure) I wrote stated that I agree with you. You must have liked the feeling, and typed something else I agree with? Help me here?

Rookie

I am not trying to insult your intelligence, or am I trying to pick an unnecessary battle. I realise that you are of the belief that it is only through faith in Christ that we are saved, but where we in divergence is the fact that you believe there will be some future day - namely the Coming of Christ - when race will mean something and it will determine whether one will be saved or not. For example, you seem to be intimating that if you are Jewish at the catching away and are not born again you will be spared the wrath of God. Obviously race is a incredible benefit. This racial identity will then automatically secure your salvation. If you are right then I think non-Jews that are not born again should at least convert to Judaism now because it is going to guarantee their salvation at Christ's return. This is what I am reading in your posts.

As for the future, you seem to be arguing that circumcision availeth a lot. On this I strongly and sincerly disagree.

Paul

IPet2_9
Apr 23rd 2008, 02:41 PM
Yeah, about that: the significance of that reality is not that it's visible, it's that it's NOT visible. It's like in America, we are supposed to be color-blind. I look at you, I don't see a white or black guy. I see a human. In the same way, Paul looks at a Christian, he doesn't see a Jew or Gentile. He sees a Christian. Any Jewish or Gentile identity among believers has been forsaken in favor of Christ. And that's the way it should be (Phil. 3).

the rookie
Apr 23rd 2008, 04:28 PM
Rookie

[QUOTE]
I am not trying to insult your intelligence, or am I trying to pick an unnecessary battle. I realise that you are of the belief that it is only through faith in Christ that we are saved...

As for the future, you seem to be arguing that circumcision availeth a lot. On this I strongly and sincerly disagree.

Paul

This is SUPER helpful and much appreciated. Thanks much for taking the time to write that - it really helps clarify where we're on the same page and where I have work to do in communicating my points with precision. For real - thanks Paul.

So let's look at where we're not connecting here:


...but where we in divergence is the fact that you believe there will be some future day - namely the Coming of Christ - when race will mean something and it will determine whether one will be saved or not. For example, you seem to be intimating that if you are Jewish at the catching away and are not born again you will be spared the wrath of God. Obviously race is a incredible benefit. This racial identity will then automatically secure your salvation. If you are right then I think non-Jews that are not born again should at least convert to Judaism now because it is going to guarantee their salvation at Christ's return. This is what I am reading in your posts.

Yes - I can see why you would read that - and it is NOT what I mean to communicate. Let me try again, though I think we will always be at an impasse because of the fact that I believe that Jews AND Gentiles will get saved after the Second Coming, and you see this as impossible.

I do not think that race or conversion to Judaism is necessary, of course - again, both Jew and Gentile will be saved after the return of Christ to the earth; the reason that the Jews are saved first is not about race - it is about the remnant that you have been talking about. There will be a remnant in both the Jews and Gentiles that will come to Christ after He returns, by grace through faith - but Paul seems clear in Rom. 11 that the Jewish remnant will repent first, and then the nations will follow.

Again, it would take too long (and we have covered this in other places) to lay out why I believe that, but the pressure and provocation of the last 3 1/2 years contributes to the timing of when each group repents.

Thanks for your graciousness in your response.

IPet2_9
Apr 23rd 2008, 04:35 PM
I have speculated over the possibility that people may get saved during the Millennium, if pre-mill is true. It says the martyred saints will be made rulers during the Millennium...well...ruler over whom?? A-mill makes sense: they would judge the angels. But if pre-mill turns out to be true, you have to have somebody other than the martyred saints to rule over.

the rookie
Apr 23rd 2008, 04:41 PM
I have speculated over the possibility that people may get saved during the Millennium, if pre-mill is true. It says the martyred saints will be made rulers during the Millennium...well...ruler over whom?? A-mill makes sense: they would judge the angels. But if pre-mill turns out to be true, you have to have somebody other than the martyred saints to rule over.

Sure, but Paul in 1 Cor. 6 didn't only mention angels - he talked about the nations as well, so you have government of people involved somewhere. To be fair, one could take the "judging of people" to mean participation in the Rev. 20 judgment - but it would be hard to figure where believers are during the Great White Throne judgment of the peoples.

Where you see "judgment of peoples" in Rev. 20 is at the beginning of the millennium - the problem, of course, is that Paul spoke of judging nations as a future event in conjunction with judging angels, not a reality that began at the cross.

the rookie
Apr 23rd 2008, 04:46 PM
According to your interpretation, but it seems like you see Paul's statement in Romans 11:26 as his own prophecy regarding the distant future. I see it as him referencing the prophecy from Isaiah 59:20-21, which prophesied the coming Deliverer who would die for the sins of the world, including Israel, so that whosoever believed in Him, Jew or Gentile, would not perish and have everlasting life through the new covenant of His shed blood on the cross.

I appreciate that - and this of course is ground that I have covered already with Shirley I would refer you to those posts, and await with interest your exegesis of Isaiah 59 and 27. The passages, of course, not just the verse. Unlike Shirley, I cannot imagine that Paul would pluck one verse out of Isaiah 59 and ignore the implications of the rest of the passage.




And, of course, I disagree that anyone (any mortals) remains after the second coming of Christ.

You're free to disagree, but your disagreement would carry more weight if you would exegete Zech. 8 and 14. I would be happy with Zech. 8.




Are you not saying that everyone alive in Israel when Christ returns will be saved, without exception? If so, then you are indeed saying what I think you are.

Perhaps it would be helpful then if you explained what you think I am saying, then.

the rookie
Apr 23rd 2008, 05:00 PM
I believe you're missing the context. The context begins before that verse and then continues beyond it. Verse 14 says he made both one and had broken down the middle wall of partition between Jews and Gentiles. The reconciliation has been made. How? Through the cross. So, to say that the reconciliation does not occur until sometime in the future contradicts what verse 14 tells us. Read the verse that follows verse 16.

I wold refer you to my response to David Taylor on this one. When one insists that the context is contained within a few verses, ignoring the thrust of the entire letter, then an impasse has been reached by which there isn't much left to discuss. Thus, in that sense, your analysis of the verses does not have the punch, in my opinion, that one might imagine.




Let me ask you something. Did Jesus destroy the works of the devil in the past or not until sometime in the future? Because we see similar wording in 1 John 3:8. It says Jesus was manifested that he might destroy the works of the devil. Does this mean He failed to destroy the works of the devil when He was manifested or did He succeed in doing so and continues to do so as people continue to be born again? Did He succeed, and is He continuing to succeed, in spoiling the goods and house of the strong man or will He not do so until He returns?

It would have to be both, since I differ with the Amil view on the "binding" of Satan and his consignment to a pit over the past 2000 years. The current condition of Iraq and Iran seems to bear out the problem of demons on the earth at the moment. The current condition, spiritually, of Jerusalem seems to bear out the activity of an evil spirit that wasn't cast out when the fountain was opened (supposedly) in Zech. 12. I could go on, but I think my point is clear:

The cross was the means to accomplish something that has not come to it's end yet - which is why creation groans. To insist otherwise is to continue the theme of the discussion, where one side appeals to ethereal spiritual principles that have some correlation to the current condition of the natural realm but seems to render the actual promises of scripture well short of what is described; the other side then responds by appealing to a process that has yet to fully run its course. Back and forth we go.




It can be both, depending on exactly what we're talking about. He made both (Jew and Gentile believers) one. That was an instantaneous result of His work on the cross. As each person is born again and enters the kingdom, the process continues.

Agreed.

timmyb
Apr 23rd 2008, 05:47 PM
Where do you get the idea that the true Church is made up of only Gentiles?

by your own admission there are no Jews and Gentiles in the church.... but I don't think the church I know agrees with that fact... or at least where I come from


The first true Church in the Bible was made up of only Hebrews, going all the way back to Genesis. The New Testament Church was solely Jewish from Acts 1 through Acts 7 with not one Gentile. Then from Acts 8 - 28 we find the Church made up of both Gentiles and Jews.

Gentiles calling themselves "Christians" and "God's Church" have persecuted many people in the name of God. Hitler didn't just persecute the Jewish race. He persecuted all races of people that were not white and those of other religions. And he persecuted even those of Protestantism who opposed any of his agenda to create one new superior race of people, one new society of people with superior knowledge and superior health and a supereor know-how to gain the wealth of this world in which to build his global kingdom. He detested the poverty stricken and disease and deformity stricken. These were usually the first to be eliminated from his perfect world that he was trying to create.

but his rage was directed toward the "Final Solution to the Jewish Question" His speeches were toward the Jews who had supposedly stabbed Germany in the Back... the signs of German parks read "No Jews or dogs allowed"




You make it sound like that segregation only existed in the South. You need to read Black History from black authors who lived during the time of segregation between the white and the black. They tell of how segragation was prevelant throughout America and throughout North and South America, Europe and Africa.

Well I live in Mississippi and was raised in a very segregationalist home and believe me. Race is STILL an issue in the majority of the churches in the South. Which makes me wonder... Would the civil rights movement in the South have gone better if the White church would have stood up for the injustice done to the black man? Why did it have to start with a black man standing up for himself? Which begs the question... When is the church going to own up and repent for the injustice done to Jews over the centuries?

The problem is that the church in the South still has issues over race. We were where it was the worst and we are still licking our wounds over this movement. We could care less about the Jew or Israel with what we are so concerned with down here.

May I remind you that Hitler felt that he was doing the work of God by killing Jews based on writings by Luther late in his life.




I believe all true Christians committed soley to Christ and His word will preach the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ to all they come in contact with who are unsaved with no hope. A person's race and religion will not stop them.

i agree




According to Jesus it is God who joins a man and woman together in marriage as one:

Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.


Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

9What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.



And let me tell you, after 47 years of marriage to one man, marriage is a lot more than a "committment" to one another just as salvation is much more than our "committment" to God.



Shirley

but the problem is that WHERE IS THE COMMITMENT?... God may have put you and your husband together but you had to make the choice to agree with the work of God. God didn't just force you two together. You had to make the choice to stay married when you got married. Marriage isn't easy.

The problem with what you're saying is that there is a measure of human effort that has to go with that. Do we agree with the word of God and make the effort to agree with it in the natural? Or do we blind ourselves to the visual reality of the world and say that something exists when realiy says it's not there? How can you say a tree has fruit when the branches are bare? I don't know about where you're from but from where I'm sitting it still looks like the church is segregated, we just don't address the issue anymore.

Mograce2U
Apr 23rd 2008, 05:54 PM
It would have to be both, since I differ with the Amil view on the "binding" of Satan and his consignment to a pit over the past 2000 years. The current condition of Iraq and Iran seems to bear out the problem of demons on the earth at the moment. The current condition, spiritually, of Jerusalem seems to bear out the activity of an evil spirit that wasn't cast out when the fountain was opened (supposedly) in Zech. 12. I could go on, but I think my point is clear:

The cross was the means to accomplish something that has not come to it's end yet - which is why creation groans. To insist otherwise is to continue the theme of the discussion, where one side appeals to ethereal spiritual principles that have some correlation to the current condition of the natural realm but seems to render the actual promises of scripture well short of what is described; the other side then responds by appealing to a process that has yet to fully run its course. Back and forth we go.
The OT speaks of when Jerusalem would be desolated and a habitation of devils. Such devils have been in the earth these past 2,000 years without their prince. Jesus instead has all power over heaven and earth, principalities and authorities are subject to Him. And we see that such uprisings in the past have been put down consistently. That Iran and Irag seem to be pockets for such entities only makes sense since they serve a false god. Which is not hard to see that such pockets seem to be growing in number as men forsake the Lord to serve their idols.

The Amil understanding is that near the end of days, Satan will again be released to gather his servants thru deception around the world to come against the saints. And that certainly seems to be what we are seeing today. That it may have coincided with Israel becoming a nation again is certainly curious.

IPet2_9
Apr 23rd 2008, 05:57 PM
Where do you get the idea that the true Church is made up of only Gentiles?by your own admission there are no Jews and Gentiles in the church.

Is it just me, or is the fallacy in that pretty self-explanatory?

timmyb
Apr 23rd 2008, 08:43 PM
Is it just me, or is the fallacy in that pretty self-explanatory?

what do you mean? the church is made up of every tribe, tongue and nation... Jew and Gentile and alike... i don't know what fallacy you're trying to point out...

IPet2_9
Apr 23rd 2008, 09:16 PM
She said the Church is made up of 0% Gentiles. You took that as an admission that the Church is made up of 100% Gentiles.

timmyb
Apr 24th 2008, 01:36 AM
She said the Church is made up of 0% Gentiles. You took that as an admission that the Church is made up of 100% Gentiles.


no, one of the first scriptures quoted in this conversation is the one that said that there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ.... and that's absolutely right that being they are IN CHRIST... so yeah the CHURCH is 0% Jew and 0% Gentile...

It sounded like she was saying that the church was all Gentile...

I don't get the idea that the church is made up of only Gentiles. I don't know what she was asking me.

as far as the topic is concerned... the Church has a clear responsibility to the Jewish people and we are neglecting it severely. We are not going to be truly one until we as a Church Body of Believers embrace the Jewish people and commit to seeing them all saved. That's my stand.

ShirleyFord
Apr 24th 2008, 02:11 AM
no, one of the first scriptures quoted in this conversation is the one that said that there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ.... and that's absolutely right that being they are IN CHRIST... so yeah the CHURCH is 0% Jew and 0% Gentile...

It sounded like she was saying that the church was all Gentile...

I don't get the idea that the church is made up of only Gentiles. I don't know what she was asking me.

as far as the topic is concerned... the Church has a clear responsibility to the Jewish people and we are neglecting it severely. We are not going to be truly one until we as a Church Body of Believers embrace the Jewish people and commit to seeing them all saved. That's my stand.

Timmy,

My response was to this quote from a post of yours to Merton:



Originally Posted by timmyb

my argument is the Church's application to scripture and their commitment to agree with the 'one new man' reality... were the jew and gentile one while the church was persecuting the Jews for 2000 years?



The part I highlighted sure sounded to me that you were calling the Church "gentile" who persecuted "the Jews".


Shirley

IPet2_9
Apr 24th 2008, 01:04 PM
as far as the topic is concerned... the Church has a clear responsibility to the Jewish people and we are neglecting it severely

The Church has a responsibility to reach them with the Gospel, just like everybody else. It's been done. Over and over and over.... There are animists in northern India, starving in Africa, drug offenders in prisons...the harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.

timmyb
Apr 24th 2008, 04:24 PM
Timmy,

My response was to this quote from a post of yours to Merton:




The part I highlighted sure sounded to me that you were calling the Church "gentile" who persecuted "the Jews".


Shirley

the reality is that after Constantine converted he was still very Anti Semeitc. The council of Nicea was mainly Gentile converts. No Jews were allowed. A mostly Gentile church persecuted Jews for 2000 years... and there was no desire for the Jew or Gentile to become one... There were Jewish christians but they were required to become Catholic and were forbidden to celebrate Passover... they were forced to renounce their jewish heritage.... That's what I was talking about...

sorry for sounding so confusing :spin:

ShirleyFord
Apr 24th 2008, 06:45 PM
the reality is that after Constantine converted he was still very Anti Semeitc. The council of Nicea was mainly Gentile converts. No Jews were allowed. A mostly Gentile church persecuted Jews for 2000 years... and there was no desire for the Jew or Gentile to become one... There were Jewish christians but they were required to become Catholic and were forbidden to celebrate Passover... they were forced to renounce their jewish heritage.... That's what I was talking about...

sorry for sounding so confusing :spin:


Thanks Timmy. :)

But I wouldn't think that Consantine would fit the Bible's description of the true Church.

You are a member of the true Church and a Gentile. I little doubt that you have persecuted the Jewish people or anyone else. I am also a member of God's true Church and a Gentile. But in my 41 years of being part of the true Church, I have never persecuted not one Jewish person or anyother race of people.

In fact, I have gone to Church and worshipped with Jews, blacks, Mexicans, Chinese, Japanese, etc., who worshipped the same God, were members of the same local Church and the One universal true Church of God as I.


Shirley

the rookie
Apr 24th 2008, 07:03 PM
Did you not see the winking smiley I put in there? I thought you would have realized I wasn't being serious.

Whoops!

Sorry, on two levels! :D

I never fully grasp the winky smiley....:lol:

John146
Apr 24th 2008, 07:21 PM
I appreciate that - and this of course is ground that I have covered already with Shirley I would refer you to those posts, and await with interest your exegesis of Isaiah 59 and 27. The passages, of course, not just the verse. Unlike Shirley, I cannot imagine that Paul would pluck one verse out of Isaiah 59 and ignore the implications of the rest of the passage.

He wasn't referencing just one verse from Isaiah 59 (verse 20). The covenant of verse 21 is the same covenant of Romans 11:27. And that is the new covenant of the shed blood of Christ. That is the covenant that takes away the sins of Jacob (Israel) as Paul says in Romans 11:27 and the covenant by which, when one enters into it, they are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, which Isaiah 59:21 speaks about.



You're free to disagree, but your disagreement would carry more weight if you would exegete Zech. 8 and 14. I would be happy with Zech. 8.

We had an entire thread dedicated to the discussion of Zechariah 14, if you recall. You can refer back to that, if you'd like.

As far as Zechariah 8, I see that as being a reference to the first coming of Christ. I don't have the desire to exegete the whole passage right now. But I'll say this. When I read the following passage:

20Thus saith the LORD of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities: 21And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also.
22Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.
23Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you. - Zechariah 8:20-23


I think of this:

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? - Acts 2:1-12




Perhaps it would be helpful then if you explained what you think I am saying, then.

I did. This is what I said:
Are you not saying that everyone alive in Israel when Christ returns will be saved, without exception? If so, then you are indeed saying what I think you are.

How else can I explain it? My understanding of what you were saying is that you believe everyone alive in Israel when Christ returns will be saved. So, is that true or not? If not, feel free to explain what you were saying (if you can remember at this point).

John146
Apr 24th 2008, 07:45 PM
Whoops!

Sorry, on two levels! :D

I never fully grasp the winky smiley....:lol:

It's okay. Misunderstandings can easily occur on a message board. I'll use this :D next time so there's no doubt.

timmyb
Apr 24th 2008, 09:31 PM
Thanks Timmy. :)

But I wouldn't think that Consantine would fit the Bible's description of the true Church.

You are a member of the true Church and a Gentile. I little doubt that you have persecuted the Jewish people or anyone else. I am also a member of God's true Church and a Gentile. But in my 41 years of being part of the true Church, I have never persecuted not one Jewish person or anyother race of people.

In fact, I have gone to Church and worshipped with Jews, blacks, Mexicans, Chinese, Japanese, etc., who worshipped the same God, were members of the same local Church and the One universal true Church of God as I.


Shirley

Yeah... that's quite rare down here... but we're learning...

The big thing for me is that we need to own up to our past and repent and embrace the Jewish people... Down in the South repentance is slow but sure...

ShirleyFord
Apr 24th 2008, 10:28 PM
Yeah... that's quite rare down here... but we're learning...

The big thing for me is that we need to own up to our past and repent and embrace the Jewish people... Down in the South repentance is slow but sure...

Timmy,

What Scriptures are you basing your belief on that we are responsible for someone else's sins? And that we must repent of sins of even those people that we have never known and who lived centuries before we were ever born? Where do you draw the line?

The Bible teaches however in 1 Jn 1:9, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."


Shirley

timmyb
Apr 25th 2008, 12:24 AM
I know that... that's not what I'm talking about.. There are sins of one generation that will continue to haunt the next generation... It's not the principle of the Lord punishing us for the sins of our fathers but it is the reality of the corporate peoples sins... Jeremiah warned Jerusalem of what was going to happen but his repentance wasn't enough to spare the people of the punishment of being taken by Babylon...

Although a few small bodies have formally repented for the sin of segregation, the majority of the Church down has not. So, the reality of the curse of our sin still hangs over the South and it will take more than one person repenting. It will take a Joel 2 solemn assembly and fasting that will remove the curse that hangs over this region...

This one doesn't come out but by prayer and fasting....

Although I personally am forgiven for MY sins... there are sins of the people that need addressing... sins of our fathers that we are still living under... racism, abortion, and superficial religion...

ShirleyFord
Apr 25th 2008, 02:07 AM
I know that... that's not what I'm talking about.. There are sins of one generation that will continue to haunt the next generation... It's not the principle of the Lord punishing us for the sins of our fathers but it is the reality of the corporate peoples sins... Jeremiah warned Jerusalem of what was going to happen but his repentance wasn't enough to spare the people of the punishment of being taken by Babylon...

As I recall, Jeremiah prophecied continueously to Judah for many years before the Babylonian Captivity warning of God's wrath upon them if they didn't repent. But I don't remember Jeremiah repenting for them. Now Daniel prayed and repented for Israel near the end of the Babylonian Captivity in Daniel 9.

Daniel repenting for the sins of his generation back to the fathers of Israel is the only person in the Bible I can think of that repented for someone else's sins that he had no part of.

Do you know of anyone else?

Only the Israel of the OT under the law of Moses did God hold a person responsible for his fathers sins to the 4th generation. And then we find that each person from each of those generations following committed the same sins that their fathers did.


Although a few small bodies have formally repented for the sin of segregation, the majority of the Church down has not. So, the reality of the curse of our sin still hangs over the South and it will take more than one person repenting. It will take a Joel 2 solemn assembly and fasting that will remove the curse that hangs over this region...

Joel 2:12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:

Joel is prophecying to those in Israel who was away from the Lord. And we don't find them commanded to repent of anyone else's sins but their own.

Jesus, an Israelite, on the cross interceded for those in Israel who rejected Him, mocked Him, tortured and persecuted Him and crucified Him, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

Jesus became a curse for Israel and the rest of the world at Calvary:

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

And a few days afterward, Joel 2:28-32 was fulfilled:

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


And we find that 3000 of those Jews, the household of Israel, dwelling in Jerusalem that day from every nation under the sun who Peter said had crucified Jesus called on the name of the Lord and were saved.



This one doesn't come out but by prayer and fasting....



Jesus spoke that in Matt 17:21 and Mark 9:29 of the demons in the boy that he cast out. This had no connection to repenting for someone else's sins. The disciples didn't have to go on a fast and several days prayer meeting before Jesus was able to cast the demons out.


Although I personally am forgiven for MY sins... there are sins of the people that need addressing... sins of our fathers that we are still living under... racism, abortion, and superficial religion...

I'm not living under the sins of my fathers. I'm not living under my past sins before God saved me nor the sins I have repented of since He saved me. Jesus freed me from the curse of the law. His blood is sufficient. I place my trust fully in Him.

I could repent the rest of my life with continual prayer and fasting for the sins of this nation, the sins of my forefathers, the sins of those who still reject Jesus Christ, but it wouldn't do those living any good. And it certainly wouldn't remove the curse of sin from those who are already dead.

timmyb
Apr 25th 2008, 01:02 PM
yeah... it's a can of worms I am not willing to open... It's something I know in my heart but I haven't gotten it straightened out in my head...

ShirleyFord
Apr 25th 2008, 01:22 PM
yeah... it's a can of worms I am not willing to open... It's something I know in my heart but I haven't gotten it straightened out in my head...

Timmy, when that happens to me the best solution I have found to the problem is to allow Scripture be the deciding factor.

Mograce2U
Apr 25th 2008, 02:10 PM
Timmyb,
It is a fact that living in a sin cursed world does haunt each and every generation. We cannot get free of its effects in this life except by holding fast to Christ. And yet knowing this is the condition of the world we live in, we are called to make a difference and call men to come into that world He has prepared for us. Changing this world is not our job, but giving witness that there is another life available is. Our job is to help men find that path that leads to life, knowing that this world is not our home. And knowing your sins have been forgiven by the cross is the key to your witness that grace is available to any who seek to know Jesus as their Redeemer.

I sense you have been influenced with the Jewish idea that Israel is the redeemer of the world. And that it is their suffering that accomplishes it in the world. But our yoke in Christ is not like that at all, nor is our burden that heavy. Our perseverance in prayer is a JOY, because we know that He will do what we ask. The Jew is still trying to carry this impossible task upon themselves because they do not know that their Redeemer lives and is able and willing to do all that He has promised. Therefore our Hope is not their hope. We have the good news to give the world that He is risen! What a privelege it is to be able to tell the world that all power and authority has been given to Him and He shares that with those who belong to Him and gives mercy and life to those who believe.

IPet2_9
Apr 25th 2008, 03:07 PM
Timmy, when that happens to me the best solution I have found to the problem is to allow Scripture be the deciding factor.

EXACTLY. Scriptural authority has to trump our own gut feelings. Sometimes when we have gut feelings, it's just gas.

timmyb
Apr 25th 2008, 04:27 PM
Timmyb,
It is a fact that living in a sin cursed world does haunt each and every generation. We cannot get free of its effects in this life except by holding fast to Christ. And yet knowing this is the condition of the world we live in, we are called to make a difference and call men to come into that world He has prepared for us. Changing this world is not our job, but giving witness that there is another life available is. Our job is to help men find that path that leads to life, knowing that this world is not our home. And knowing your sins have been forgiven by the cross is the key to your witness that grace is available to any who seek to know Jesus as their Redeemer.

I sense you have been influenced with the Jewish idea that Israel is the redeemer of the world. And that it is their suffering that accomplishes it in the world. But our yoke in Christ is not like that at all, nor is our burden that heavy. Our perseverance in prayer is a JOY, because we know that He will do what we ask. The Jew is still trying to carry this impossible task upon themselves because they do not know that their Redeemer lives and is able and willing to do all that He has promised. Therefore our Hope is not their hope. We have the good news to give the world that He is risen! What a privelege it is to be able to tell the world that all power and authority has been given to Him and He shares that with those who belong to Him and gives mercy and life to those who believe.

I know that and believe it wholeheartedly. I really I don't know how to say what I want to say without sounding foolish. I know what I believe but I can't put it into words what I want to say.

timmyb
Apr 25th 2008, 04:29 PM
Timmy, when that happens to me the best solution I have found to the problem is to allow Scripture be the deciding factor.

I know... I'm still searching... I can only do one thing at a time and God right now has me really focused on Israel and the biblical foundations for Israel... Spiritual Warfare is next on my list

ShirleyFord
Apr 25th 2008, 05:29 PM
I know... I'm still searching... I can only do one thing at a time and God right now has me really focused on Israel and the biblical foundations for Israel... Spiritual Warfare is next on my list

Timmy, God bless your precious heart and sincerity! :)

I too was focused many years on the nation of Israel. Oh the hours I have spent at one time praying and fasting with others and alone in spiritual warfare, making the sins of others against Israel my own sins and confessing those sins.

I have done the same will the sins of this nation and also with slavery. I did the same for my huband who was an alcoholic of the worst kind for 27 long years. I made his sins my own. I confessed them as my own. I really thought that I was pulling down strongholds in his life that kept him from getting saved and sober.

Three years before the Lord did save him and sobered him up instantly (April 22, 1989), the Lord taught me a lesson about what spiritual warfare and pulling down strongholds really means.

All of those years I couldn't get away from the Scriptures that commanded wives to love their own husbands. I tried to find loopholes since I could easily love my husband and forgive all of the abuse that he put me through when in was in a drunken stupor, when he was sober. But I couldn't find any Scripture that said that I was to love my husband only when he was sober and treating me right.

So one night after I had been beaten up so badily and my husband had finally passed out in the middle of the living room floor, I sat in my bedroom with the Bible. I felt so alone. And I was really wondering why God had not answered any of my prayers for my husband. I had reached the point of such despair and discouragement in my walk with the Lord. I opened my Bible just needing God to speak to me from His word something that would give me hope again, something that would let me know that all of my efforts had not been in vain.

But wouldn't you know it. "Wives love your husbands". I took my Bible and threw it on the floor and said "Alright God, if you want me to love my husband at all times then you are just going to have to love him through me when he is bashing my head up against the wall or his fist."

That is what God was waiting to hear. And for the next three years I was able to obey God most of the time even during those most difficult times and let Him love my husband through me. I just had to simply place my focus on Him and what He said in His word and let Him do the work in and through me by His Spirit.

When God got ahold of my husband three years later, he saved Him, sobered him up and delivered him totally and completely. He never had the first withdrawal or cravings for alcohol as he had the many times he had quit for short times before in AA and alcholic treatment centers over those many years.

Sorry to have gotten off topic.


Shirley

DeafPosttrib
Apr 25th 2008, 06:06 PM
Shirley,

What wonderful testimony! I did read your testimony before at another discussion forum. But, I like to read yours again. God is so good to us! :hug:

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

ShirleyFord
Apr 25th 2008, 06:12 PM
Yes He is Phil.

quiet dove
Apr 25th 2008, 06:32 PM
Sorry to have gotten off topic.
Shirley

Shirley, your testimony is never off topic. It is always inspiring and teaching. :hug:

timmyb
Apr 25th 2008, 07:34 PM
Timmy, God bless your precious heart and sincerity! :)

I too was focused many years on the nation of Israel. Oh the hours I have spent at one time praying and fasting with others and alone in spiritual warfare, making the sins of others against Israel my own sins and confessing those sins.

I have done the same will the sins of this nation and also with slavery. I did the same for my huband who was an alcoholic of the worst kind for 27 long years. I made his sins my own. I confessed them as my own. I really thought that I was pulling down strongholds in his life that kept him from getting saved and sober.

Three years before the Lord did save him and sobered him up instantly (April 22, 1989), the Lord taught me a lesson about what spiritual warfare and pulling down strongholds really means.

All of those years I couldn't get away from the Scriptures that commanded wives to love their own husbands. I tried to find loopholes since I could easily love my husband and forgive all of the abuse that he put me through when in was in a drunken stupor, when he was sober. But I couldn't find any Scripture that said that I was to love my husband only when he was sober and treating me right.

So one night after I had been beaten up so badily and my husband had finally passed out in the middle of the living room floor, I sat in my bedroom with the Bible. I felt so alone. And I was really wondering why God had not answered any of my prayers for my husband. I had reached the point of such despair and discouragement in my walk with the Lord. I opened my Bible just needing God to speak to me from His word something that would give me hope again, something that would let me know that all of my efforts had not been in vain.

But wouldn't you know it. "Wives love your husbands". I took my Bible and threw it on the floor and said "Alright God, if you want me to love my husband at all times then you are just going to have to love him through me when he is bashing my head up against the wall or his fist."

That is what God was waiting to hear. And for the next three years I was able to obey God most of the time even during those most difficult times and let Him love my husband through me. I just had to simply place my focus on Him and what He said in His word and let Him do the work in and through me by His Spirit.

When God got ahold of my husband three years later, he saved Him, sobered him up and delivered him totally and completely. He never had the first withdrawal or cravings for alcohol as he had the many times he had quit for short times before in AA and alcholic treatment centers over those many years.

Sorry to have gotten off topic.


Shirley

we do have something in common... my biological father (i was adopted at 6) was an abusive alcoholic... I'm still praying for God to break in on his life...

your testimony is a great encouragement to me

ShirleyFord
Apr 25th 2008, 08:15 PM
we do have something in common... my biological father (i was adopted at 6) was an abusive alcoholic... I'm still praying for God to break in on his life...

your testimony is a great encouragement to me

Thanks Timmy :)

I am so thankful that God used it to bring encouragement to you. That makes it worth all those years so I could have this testimony of our Lord's great mercy and faithfulness, if it was only so that I could share it with you today so that God could bring encouragement to you through it. All praise and glory goes to our Lord!

I do want to add that I learned during those three years that everything that I had done all of the years before then was for the purpose of getting Frank saved and sober. But when God finally was able to get through to me, I finally saw that He wanted me to obey His word rather than trying to get my husband saved and sober.

And honestly, I lost the fear that my husband would hurt me and kill me. And even the desire for my husband to get saved and sober. I finally reached the point that I prayed constantly, "Lord, I don't care if my husband never gets saved. His not getting saved will not cause me to disobey you and stop loving him. If he never gets sober and kills me during one of his drunken rages, then I will die loving him in obedience to your word."

timmyb
Apr 25th 2008, 09:43 PM
Now, that's stout!... I got to give you some major props... you couldn't have done that without the nature of Christ in you.. not only does it take God to love God, it takes God to love one another as well...

ShirleyFord
Apr 26th 2008, 12:55 AM
Now, that's stout!... I got to give you some major props... you couldn't have done that without the nature of Christ in you.. not only does it take God to love God, it takes God to love one another as well...

Absolutely Timmy.

Our own love is not good enough to love God with no matter how deep our love for Him is. Nor is our love good enough to love others with. That is why He gives us His love at the moment that He saves us to love Him and others with as He has commanded us to do in His word:

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.



Shirley

LivingSacrafice
Apr 27th 2008, 04:55 AM
When Christ died on the cross at Calvary He died for all. In 1 Corinthians it tells us there is no distinction between the Jews, Greeks slave or free man.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

When we look at the end times in Revelation God has chosen 144,000 Jews and marked them with His mark, they are His chosen people. Not only that you have a remnant of Jews that God is caring for Himself in the wlderness. Why does God do this if we are all meant to be the same in the Lord?
Why are these people so special to God that He would personally take care of them in the wilderness?
What about the church none of them are being cared for by God?
Why is there a differnece in the way God treats these two groups when we are all meant to be the same in Christ?

Someone might have posted this before me,but you've to remember that we're all equal because the first will be last and the last will be first,and you could do it vice-versa.Its talks about in the bible how Jews rejected Jesus so Jesus went on to the Gentiles[Gentile-anything other than a Jew].We've grace right now as Gentiles but keep in mind that grace will leave the Gentiles soon and after that it will go to the Jews.The 144,000 are the chosen Jews that will go out and preach to the other Jews so that they may come to beleive,and all of the real Jews will come to beleive and be saved.

A lot of people might say the Jews are the anti-Christ but that is not true,I wont get into who is because that will just go into something to deep for some people.But I will say that people especially those who say they are real christians need to get that thought out of your mind.

You have to remember that God knows everything that we're gonna do before we do it,and sometimes we say well then why dont God stop things if he sees them already.Alot of times we must go through these things to move up with God,God has a plan for each and everyone of us,just like with the Jews,Jesus death had to happen for us to be were we're thats why we must rejoice over the fact that Jesus died for us,because if he didnt we would all be in sin and on our way to hell.

Sometimes we want to blame this person or that person but we dont look at ourselves,if we dont get ourselves right we're just gonna be in this world
talking about others and judging others and their lives.And telling them they're going to hell[which I think should be told but in a way that shows them that that is not Gods will,not all up in their face telling folks that they are going to hell,we must show folks the love of God].But we've to look at ourselves and look to God to change us then we will end up in hell because we're so focused on other people when we need to get right ourselves.

Dont get caught up in the lie that the devil is spredding into your minds,God loves us all,if he didnt love us their wouldnt be grace and none of us would be saved,dont worry about wether the Jews are the ones who God wanted to come to him first because God new what was going to happen before it happened,and he knew you before you were born.He didnt create none of us to go to hell but he knows those that will go to hell,God has given us all free will to choose him or to choose the world.

And some might say well why do I have to give up this or that,why do I have to live for God,why cant I listen to this music,or have sex or masterbate,or look at porn.Well because God is our creator,and if God wanted to he could have made us like robots[figure of speech] he could've designed us to do certain things but no he gave us free will too chose for ourselves.A alot of people say well if Gods so loving why do I have to serve
him why cant I do my own will,why cant I choose my own God.Well God gave us free will and we have the right to choose him or denie him,he isnt forcing us to serve him but he is saying that its your choice but what you choose can be rewarding in the end or can be destructive in the end.But God loves us so much he stays on us even when we want to act a fool[I have acted up myself so many times,but my heart wanted God and he pulled me back in which he didnt have to do].

So plz realize that God has chosen alot of us out of many people he could have chose,we just have to accept his will,sometimes we think God has forsaken us but hes right at our door just saying are you finished,and can I come back into your heart now.

If you havent lived right open your heart to God,God is always there only way God wont be there is if your Blaspheme the holy spirit,but other than that you can be forgiven for every sin as long as your heart is wanting it.Trust me I have been through so much and still struggle in some areas,but God continues to deal with me,and continues to love me,and he deals with me because I have an open heart to God,my heart wants to change.

God bless you all,and remember that Jesus is always there,we just have to call on his name with a pure heart.He loves you more than you could imagine,and yes Im talking to you,Im talking to you the one who is lost,you the one who struggles with sin,to you who seems like you have no hope.God is there always.

ShirleyFord
Apr 27th 2008, 11:49 AM
Someone might have posted this before me,but you've to remember that we're all equal because the first will be last and the last will be first,and you could do it vice-versa.Its talks about in the bible how Jews rejected Jesus so Jesus went on to the Gentiles[Gentile-anything other than a Jew].We've grace right now as Gentiles but keep in mind that grace will leave the Gentiles soon and after that it will go to the Jews.The 144,000 are the chosen Jews that will go out and preach to the other Jews so that they may come to beleive,and all of the real Jews will come to beleive and be saved.

.

You seem to be saying that God's grace was not offered to the Jews at the First Coming of Christ because of their rejection of Him. So Jesus turned to the Gentiles instead and first with His grace, holding back His grace from the Jews until a later time when He had had removed His grace from the Gentiles.

But the Bible clearly states that the following found grace in the eyes of the Lord before Jesus came the 1st time:

Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

Abraham was graced with God's grace.

Moses found God's grace.

Jeremiah wrote that Israel found grace in the wilderness.

Not all of the Jews rejected Jesus at His First Coming. There is not one reference in the NT where Jesus withheld His grace from Jews because some rejected Him so He turned to the Gentiles.

We find Jesus in Acts 2 pouring out His grace on 3000 of those Jews who had crucified Him a few days earlier. And when the gospel began going out to the Gentiles, the gospel didn't cease going out to the Jews, we find throughout the book of Acts. All of the Churches Paul wrote to in the 1st entury were made up of both Jews and Gentiles.

Where do you find a Scripture that says that God's grace will be cut off from the Gentiles when it is made available to the Jews. In fact, I would like to see one Scripture that you have found that says that God's grace is not now available to the Jews or any race of people in the 21st Century as it was in the 1st Century AD.


Shirley

timmyb
Apr 27th 2008, 10:06 PM
one of the most amazing revelations I had about the Old Testament is that God is no different in the OT than in the NT... you find the same language in the NT that is in the OT... and they don't contradict each other!