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philz1982
Apr 7th 2008, 10:05 PM
How do we explain this the bible says God made everything but in my worldly mind it doesnt make sense? How could we just appear? I have always had a strong view in divine evolution meaning God guided us to evolve, according to the bible that is wrong but I just have a really tough time believing we just appeared out of nowhere. Please, help me here I want so badly to believe the bible word for word but this is hard for me to believe.

Athanasius
Apr 7th 2008, 10:06 PM
We didn't appear out of nowhere, God was there first. Now with evolution we appeared out of nowhere. But let me ask you. Creation ex nihilo is more unbelievable than a man raising himself from the dead after He's died? Why is this thing hard to believe while that thing doesn't seem so hard?

philz1982
Apr 7th 2008, 10:16 PM
We didn't appear out of nowhere, God was there first. Now with evolution we appeared out of nowhere. But let me ask you. Creation ex nihilo is more unbelievable than a man raising himself from the dead after He's died? Why is this thing hard to believe while that thing doesn't seem so hard?

For one all the prophecies said it would be this way, there is no way to scientificlly disprove it, there were tons of witness. It says God created over seven days but then it says there is no way of knowing God's timetable. I don't believe we came out of nowhere I just believe instead of making us poof appear, God made us over a gradual process. The Sermon is clear on Jesus but then the Bible says we can not know God's timetable so a day to him could be millions of years, thats why I favor the view I do. I have heard alot of things saying carbon testing is wrong and that according to certain tests the world itself is just over 5000 years old.

Gulah Papyrus
Apr 7th 2008, 10:28 PM
If God can do it through evolution over billions of years, he could also do it in an instant, 6 of one/half a dozen of the other...it's a matter of choice for Him...or he could have sped up evolution so it only took one day, or he could have done this... or He could have done that...at some point he created something in an instant, and if He can create one thing in an instant, He could create anything in an instant.

Bible says He spoke it into existance, that's the important part. It wasn't there, then God spoke, and then it was.

Athanasius
Apr 7th 2008, 10:38 PM
For one all the prophecies said it would be this way, there is no way to scientificlly disprove it, there were tons of witness. It says God created over seven days but then it says there is no way of knowing God's timetable. I don't believe we came out of nowhere I just believe instead of making us poof appear, God made us over a gradual process. The Sermon is clear on Jesus but then the Bible says we can not know God's timetable so a day to him could be millions of years, thats why I favor the view I do. I have heard alot of things saying carbon testing is wrong and that according to certain tests the world itself is just over 5000 years old.

Okay, but your taking those prophecies on the same faith that you're taking the creation account. Not being able to disprove something doesn't mean it happened; I don't want to appeal to the church of the flying spaghetti monster (or the reformed church of the flying spaghetti monster). But I bet you can't disprove the flying Spaghetti Monster.

Now, God really doesn't have a time table (He is outside of time). If you must, creation was described in comprehensible terms. And no, that doesn't mean that the evolutionary process was simplified out of the text--it was never there to begin with. As Gulah said; if God created us over billions of years (a sloppy mess of a god I wouldn't care to follow) then He could do it in the seven days the Bible says He took to create. A 'day' to God isn't a million years, or a thousand years; you'd be thinking of metaphor. No one here is going to have a problem with adaptation, but macro evolution is absolutely bust. There is almost nothing supporting it and is more unscientific than 'intelligent design,' which is by no means strictly Christian.

If you believe in macro evolution, you don't believe in the first three chapters of Genesis.

philz1982
Apr 7th 2008, 10:42 PM
Okay, but your taking those prophecies on the same faith that you're taking the creation account. Not being able to disprove something doesn't mean it happened; I don't want to appeal to the church of the flying spaghetti monster (or the reformed church of the flying spaghetti monster). But I bet you can't disprove the flying Spaghetti Monster.

Now, God really doesn't have a time table (He is outside of time). If you must, creation was described in comprehensible terms. And no, that doesn't mean that the evolutionary process was simplified out of the text--it was never there to begin with. As Gulah said; if God created us over billions of years (a sloppy mess of a god I wouldn't care to follow) then He could do it in the seven days the Bible says He took to create. A 'day' to God isn't a million years, or a thousand years; you'd be thinking of metaphor. No one here is going to have a problem with adaptation, but macro evolution is absolutely bust. There is almost nothing supporting it and is more unscientific than 'intelligent design,' which is by no means strictly Christian.

If you believe in macro evolution, you don't believe in the first three chapters of Genesis.

What is intelligent design? I heard of a movie about it. So where did I hear that a day to God is not necisarrily a day. How do you explain carbon dating of rocks and what not past 5000 years? I am curious like I said I want to believe and I have a strong faith that Christ did die and rise but I still struggle with things like creation. It just doesnt make sense with all I have learned.

Athanasius
Apr 7th 2008, 10:45 PM
What is intelligent design? I heard of a movie about it. So where did I hear that a day to God is not necisarrily a day. How do you explain carbon dating of rocks and what not past 5000 years? I am curious like I said I want to believe and I have a strong faith that Christ did die and rise but I still struggle with things like creation. It just doesnt make sense with all I have learned.

Intelligent design is the idea that the cosmos (or at least us) was created by an intelligent; not strictly limited to Christian thought on the subject.

A man claiming to be God, rising from the dead and ascending to Heaven doesn't make sense either; you still believe it. As for carbon dating it's like this. You challenge the underlying assumptions of the dating method (uniformity) and it falls apart. Do you think that things decayed at the same rate for 15.4 billion years? Doesn't fly with me. Now, the other thing to consider is perhaps God created everything with 'age'?

philz1982
Apr 7th 2008, 10:49 PM
Intelligent design is the idea that the cosmos (or at least us) was created by an intelligent; not strictly limited to Christian thought on the subject.

A man claiming to be God, rising from the dead and ascending to Heaven doesn't make sense either; you still believe it. As for carbon dating it's like this. You challenge the underlying assumptions of the dating method (uniformity) and it falls apart. Do you think that things decayed at the same rate for 15.4 billion years? Doesn't fly with me. Now, the other thing to consider is perhaps God created everything with 'age'?

I know I'm funny that way. Well that is why Carbon dating could be off by a few years. He could have made everything with an age. He could have done alot of things. I guess this is a struggle with me that I need to focus on and pray about. I want to believe it, but something still holds me back. I know it's God's word but I struggle with accepting it.

Athanasius
Apr 7th 2008, 10:54 PM
I know I'm funny that way. Well that is why Carbon dating could be off by a few years. He could have made everything with an age. He could have done alot of things. I guess this is a struggle with me that I need to focus on and pray about. I want to believe it, but something still holds me back. I know it's God's word but I struggle with accepting it.

Well it doesn't make sense to disbelieve this part of the Bible and believe that part of the Bible when they are both incredible to believe. So there's something more going on. It says in Hebrews that faith is the evidence of things unseen. The Bible also tells us that blessed are those who believe but have not yet seen. Now I'm not advocating blind faith; but you have no problem believing in the death, crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. . . Why does that seem possible, but not other things?

torazon
Apr 7th 2008, 10:59 PM
This can be quite the can of worms. First of all I have no problem believing our Father in Heaven can make anything appear fully formed if he desires.He created the whole Universe out of nothing so I think creating a couple people fully formed was not too tough for him :)

I spent a lot of time reading about the secular version of how things came to be and it's full of holes and lies. Charts that have been fabricated to fill all their gaps. There are diagrams of Evolution in school books that scientists admit are false, and yet they are still there to continue trying to push God out of the picture.

Hey there is a new movie being released on April 18th by Ben Stein called "Expelled". You should consider going to see it. I think you will be amazed at what goes on in the so called unbiased scientific arena in respect to Evolution.

Brother there is so much evidence that refutes Macro Evolution we could spend years discussing it. I have been reading about it for 2 years now and still have tons to read.

Find me evidence that shows where a new species came from another. You will find variations among species (mirco evolution) but there is nothing that can prove any new species came from another. I listed a few things below for you to check out. Those web sites have great information and are great spring boards for you to move forward.

"Darwins Black Box" by Michael Behe.

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/index.html
http://www.godandscience.org/
http://www.icr.org/

TEITZY
Apr 7th 2008, 11:15 PM
For one all the prophecies said it would be this way, there is no way to scientificlly disprove it, there were tons of witness. It says God created over seven days but then it says there is no way of knowing God's timetable. I don't believe we came out of nowhere I just believe instead of making us poof appear, God made us over a gradual process. The Sermon is clear on Jesus but then the Bible says we can not know God's timetable so a day to him could be millions of years, thats why I favor the view I do. I have heard alot of things saying carbon testing is wrong and that according to certain tests the world itself is just over 5000 years old.


Looks like you have a few questions to work through. Here (http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/21/65/) is a link to a topics page that will help answer most of your questions from a Biblical perspective.



It says God created over seven days but then it says there is no way of knowing God's timetable.


It doesn't say that about creation at all. Genesis 1 is very clear that God made everything in 6 literal days. I think the passage your referring to has to do with the return of Christ not creation. Remember, CONTEXT is essential when reading and interpreting what the Bible says. Regarding the idea that one day could represent a "million years" to God, again the language of Genesis doesn't convey that idea, nor can one take the statement in 2 Peter 3:8 and apply it to Genesis. Peter says "that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years", but he also says that, "a thousand years as one day.", so which one is it?



I don't believe we came out of nowhere I just believe instead of making us poof appear, God made us over a gradual process.


The problem with this view (apart from the lack of physical evidence to support evolution) is that it places death and suffering billions of years prior to the 'creation' of man and sin. However the Bible is very clear (Rom 5:12-21) that death entered the creation as a result of man's sin. This has serious implications for Christ's atonement and the Gospel.



I have heard alot of things saying carbon testing is wrong and that according to certain tests the world itself is just over 5000 years old.


Carbon testing can be quite accurate, as long as you know what the original environment was like (eg. the C12:C14 ratio) in which the organism lived or the in which a crystal was formed. The problem with any dating method (particularly radiometric dating) is there are numerous assumptions that have to be factored in and in the end the ONLY result that will be accepted is the one that best fits the preconceived notion of how old something should be.

For example, according to long age geology (the current prevailing paradigm), all diamonds are millions or billions of years old and so geologists would never try and date diamonds using carbon dating because they know that carbon dating is only good for things that are less than 100,000 years old (ie. after about 50,000 years nearly all the C14 would be degraded to nitrogen gas & after 100,000 years it would be below the detectable limit in a lab). So there should be no C14 in diamonds, and yet such tests (http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/4650/) have in fact shown, on numerous occasions, that diamonds do contain C14.

The reality is that there is no empirical test that can be used to prove the date of things that are supposedly millions or even thousands of years old because dating methods can only be used to calculate a date based on available data and assumptions of the researchers. Dating methods don't produce actual ages, they simply produce data that is used to calculate a date. The only reliable dating method is an eyewitness account and that is precisely what the Genesis claims to be.

Cheers
Leigh

philz1982
Apr 7th 2008, 11:18 PM
This can be quite the can of worms. First of all I have no problem believing our Father in Heaven can make anything appear fully formed if he desires.He created the whole Universe out of nothing so I think creating a couple people fully formed was not too tough for him :)

I spent a lot of time reading about the secular version of how things came to be and it's full of holes and lies. Charts that have been fabricated to fill all their gaps. There are diagrams of Evolution in school books that scientists admit are false, and yet they are still there to continue trying to push God out of the picture.

Hey there is a new movie being released on April 18th by Ben Stein called "Expelled". You should consider going to see it. I think you will be amazed at what goes on in the so called unbiased scientific arena in respect to Evolution.

Brother there is so much evidence that refutes Macro Evolution we could spend years discussing it. I have been reading about it for 2 years now and still have tons to read.

Find me evidence that shows where a new species came from another. You will find variations among species (mirco evolution) but there is nothing that can prove any new species came from another. I listed a few things below for you to check out. Those web sites have great information and are great spring boards for you to move forward.

"Darwins Black Box" by Michael Behe.

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/index.html
http://www.godandscience.org/
http://www.icr.org/

thanks it tool alot of time for me to rationalize stuff this is good for me to read.

Gulah Papyrus
Apr 8th 2008, 01:56 AM
Don't forget this one!!

http://www.answersingenesis.org/

Gulah Papyrus
Apr 8th 2008, 02:05 AM
Here are some people who know a little bit about science, carbon dating etc.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/

Gulah Papyrus
Apr 8th 2008, 02:12 AM
One more...sorry.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-c14-disprove-the-bible

Mark F
Apr 8th 2008, 02:12 AM
philz1982,

Something for you to consider as you wrestle with these types of questions. We cannot read and study without our knowledge confusing these things, I really doubt when people say they "put aside" preconceived ideas and things they have heard or learned before. The Bible makes a very provable claim that it can change a person from the inside, the "inner man", millions of changed lives are in evidence of this.

Before reading Scripture, pray to the Lord that He will change your thinking and show you the truth of the matter and that He will enable you to take Him at His word, even if it seems to be less logical or even totally unbelievable to you now.

Always, always, read the Scripture and let it make up your mind for you, do not, do not read the Scripture with your mind made up.

God asks us to believe Him, Jesus quoted and spoke of creation as it is literally written, if you can trust Him for the saving of your soul, shouldn't you trust what He wrote in Genesis and simply take it at face value regardless of what theories man has put together?

torazon
Apr 8th 2008, 03:38 AM
What is intelligent design? I heard of a movie about it. So where did I hear that a day to God is not necisarrily a day. How do you explain carbon dating of rocks and what not past 5000 years? I am curious like I said I want to believe and I have a strong faith that Christ did die and rise but I still struggle with things like creation. It just doesnt make sense with all I have learned.

I personally do not have a firm opinion on the young and old earth issue. We do know that dating methods are seriously flawed. So much so that I read that many times they stick things in the period of time they assume they belong to without testing it. There are some good arguments from Creation Scientists on young earth. My problem is I have yet to see anything that can once and for all end the debate on if the Genesis day is 24 hours or a "long period of time". My understanding of the original text is it could have meant either.

One thing I know for sure. Jesus died on the cross for us and rose from the dead. I am saved by grace through faith in him. That is the plan of salvation and how we can have a relationship with the Lord. And that my friend is the most important thing :) Whether or not the Day in Genesis was 24 hours or "a long time" I do not think is critical.