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menJesus
Apr 9th 2008, 09:37 AM
I have a serious question here... if our spirits go to be with the Lord immediately, when we die, and we all get new bodies upon Jesus` return, then what is the symbolism of the graves bursting open and our (buried) bodies (?) coming out?

Our spirit is with the Lord, unless we are still alive when this happens, and we don`t need the bodies we had when we died... so what is the symbolism of this?

It must be symbolic...

Thanks.

ross3421
Apr 9th 2008, 10:02 AM
I have a serious question here... if our spirits go to be with the Lord immediately, when we die, and we all get new bodies upon Jesus` return, then what is the symbolism of the graves bursting open and our (buried) bodies (?) coming out?

Our spirit is with the Lord, unless we are still alive when this happens, and we don`t need the bodies we had when we died... so what is the symbolism of this?

It must be symbolic...

Thanks.

It is not symbolic.


2co 5:10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


After which those that are worthy will be clothed in white the others will perish in their bodies. Note those covered by the blood are worthy however works will still be part of rewards given in the kingdom.


Mark

menJesus
Apr 9th 2008, 10:06 AM
So when the rapture happens, we will be judged, and then taken on only if we are found worthy?

I always thought that it meant that we will be gone in the twinkling of an eye, like the Bible says...

ross3421
Apr 9th 2008, 10:09 AM
So when the rapture happens, we will be judged, and then taken on only if we are found worthy?

I always thought that it meant that we will be gone in the twinkling of an eye, like the Bible says...


Would you agree that we are resurrected in a "twinkling of an eye" ?

menJesus
Apr 9th 2008, 10:18 AM
I believe what the Bible says, and this is what it says:

KJV
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

ross3421
Apr 9th 2008, 10:31 AM
I believe what the Bible says, and this is what it says:

KJV
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

alright.... so why did you mention a rapture? and did you get the answer to your question?

quiet dove
Apr 9th 2008, 05:20 PM
I have a serious question here... if our spirits go to be with the Lord immediately, when we die, and we all get new bodies upon Jesus` return, then what is the symbolism of the graves bursting open and our (buried) bodies (?) coming out?

Our spirit is with the Lord, unless we are still alive when this happens, and we don`t need the bodies we had when we died... so what is the symbolism of this?

It must be symbolic...

Thanks.

I think this needs to be understood in the context of what the rest of scripture teaches. That we will not need these old bodies, nor would we even want them. I think it is meant to make a point. All will be resurrected, some to eternal life, some to judgment. So even if the old bodies are resurrected, and transformed, we are promised new immortal/incorruptible bodies, so by the time we get in them thats what they will be.

We are also told that those who are still physically alive will be changed, so no need for anyone to worry about being stuck in some old ikky body.

menJesus
Apr 9th 2008, 10:26 PM
alright.... so why did you mention a rapture? and did you get the answer to your question?

I`m sorry - I don`t think you are understanding what I am talking about here. :(

Did I get an answer? Obviously not from you, but thanks, anyway. :)

ScottJohnson
Apr 10th 2008, 02:37 AM
I have a serious question here... if our spirits go to be with the Lord immediately, when we die, and we all get new bodies upon Jesus` return, then what is the symbolism of the graves bursting open and our (buried) bodies (?) coming out?

Our spirit is with the Lord, unless we are still alive when this happens, and we don`t need the bodies we had when we died... so what is the symbolism of this?

It must be symbolic...

Thanks.

Maybe it is symbolism, I never really thought about it that way before. Some say that it's the soul reuniting with the body in order for the body to be changed. Of course in most cases, there isn't much body left in the graves.

threebigrocks
Apr 10th 2008, 02:58 AM
We are raised with incorruptable, heavenly bodies. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. What a heavenly body looks like - no clue, but once we are judged worthy at the last trumpet body and spirit are united.

Tossing out thoughts. For thought. :P

Anya
Apr 10th 2008, 03:16 AM
I always thought it was just our spirits from our bodies that come out, but thats not grounded in scripture, just a guess.

When Jesus came back to visit in His new body, his closest friends didnt even recognize Him, and had to see the scars again on his hands. So there will definetly be a big change!

menJesus
Apr 10th 2008, 08:21 AM
The thing is, most people believe that once a christian dies, their spirit goes straight to God. So if this is true, then I don`t think God will put our spirit back into our old bodies, would He?

And why raise the bodies if the spirit has gone on to God?

Its just one more thing I am soooo curious about... ;)

threebigrocks
Apr 10th 2008, 01:05 PM
The thing is, most people believe that once a christian dies, their spirit goes straight to God. So if this is true, then I don`t think God will put our spirit back into our old bodies, would He?

And why raise the bodies if the spirit has gone on to God?

Its just one more thing I am soooo curious about... ;)

Can't put new wine into old wineskins. Can't put a patch of unshrunk cloth on a garment. ;)

David Taylor
Apr 10th 2008, 02:46 PM
The thing is, most people believe that once a christian dies, their spirit goes straight to God. So if this is true, then I don`t think God will put our spirit back into our old bodies, would He?

And why raise the bodies if the spirit has gone on to God?

Its just one more thing I am soooo curious about... ;)

Use Christ Himself as the model template.


At His death on Calvary, His Spirit left His dead body and went into the Father.
His mortal body, went into the grave.
At His resurrection, His dead body was changed (in the twinkling of an eye), and raised incorruptible, immortal, glorified, and perfect.This same pattern occurs for all followers of Jesus.
The only difference, is that where Christ waited 3 days to have His earthly body raised and changed; we must wait longer; between the times of our death; until His Return and the resurrection of mankind.

ross3421
Apr 10th 2008, 03:18 PM
Use Christ Himself as the model template.

At His death on Calvary, His Spirit left His dead body and went into the Father.
His mortal body, went into the grave.
At His resurrection, His dead body was changed (in the twinkling of an eye), and raised incorruptible, immortal, glorified, and perfect.This same pattern occurs for all followers of Jesus.
The only difference, is that where Christ waited 3 days to have His earthly body raised and changed; we must wait longer; between the times of our death; until His Return and the resurrection of mankind.

So then this would mean we are raised in the form of our old bodies which are no longer corrupted in sin but incorruptable.....Thus we will stand in the judgment as we appear now but less sin.

So the question.......do we also appear in the eternal kingdom as we do today?


Mark

ross3421
Apr 10th 2008, 03:21 PM
I`m sorry - I don`t think you are understanding what I am talking about here. :(

Did I get an answer? Obviously not from you, but thanks, anyway. :)


I think if you truely understood my reply you would have got the answer. See above....

ross3421
Apr 10th 2008, 03:24 PM
What a heavenly body looks like - no clue,
Tossing out thoughts. For thought. :P

Your heavenly body will look the same as you look today.

Clifton
Apr 10th 2008, 03:55 PM
Your heavenly body will look the same as you look today.

How about the same as 20 years ago ... I would really like to have a head of hair again.:P

Blessings.

threebigrocks
Apr 10th 2008, 04:10 PM
Your heavenly body will look the same as you look today.

Sure, they could look the same. But they will be heavenly, of a different nature. ;)

Firstfruits
Apr 11th 2008, 11:07 AM
I have a serious question here... if our spirits go to be with the Lord immediately, when we die, and we all get new bodies upon Jesus` return, then what is the symbolism of the graves bursting open and our (buried) bodies (?) coming out?

Our spirit is with the Lord, unless we are still alive when this happens, and we don`t need the bodies we had when we died... so what is the symbolism of this?

It must be symbolic...

Thanks.

With regards to the following if we are changed in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet, how can we be in heaven before then?

1 Cor 15:42 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1 Cor 15:50 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Cor 15:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Cor 15:53 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Cor 15:54 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

If we are corruptible until the last trumpet sounds which is when we shall be changed to incorruptible, are the dead therefore still in their graves awaiting Christs return at the last trumpet?

threebigrocks
Apr 11th 2008, 01:27 PM
With regards to the following if we are changed in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet, how can we be in heaven before then?

1 Cor 15:42 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1 Cor 15:50 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Cor 15:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Cor 15:53 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Cor 15:54 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

If we are corruptible until the last trumpet sounds which is when we shall be changed to incorruptible, are the dead therefore still in their graves awaiting Christs return at the last trumpet?

When we die, our corruptable, perishable flesh ceases to be.

Romans 9



12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--
13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.


Hebrews 9


27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.


1 Corinthians 15


40There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.

41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42So also is the resurrection of the dead It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL " The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
47The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.


We were never intended to have the flesh we do now live eternally. Our spirit however is eternal. We must die in order to be redeemed, body and spirit into one corruptable soul. Now we are to be dead to the flesh and alive in Christ through the Spirit so that what is pershable can be redeemed imperishable.

Our bodies are not redeemed until Christ comes again for those who are His in spirit and truth.

1 Thessolonians 5



23Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

Tanya~
Apr 11th 2008, 01:46 PM
The resurrection of the physical body is an essential Christian belief. We are going to be raised just as Jesus was raised. But our bodies are going to be changed which means it will not be of the same nature as it is now.

Jesus is actually going to return to the earth to fulfill the prophecies concerning Him. There will be a physical existence; we aren't going to be ghosts. But our bodies will be like His. The disciples were able to touch Him after His resurrection and He was not a ghost.

Luke 24:36-39
Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, "Peace to you." 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
NKJV

1 John 3:2-3
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him , for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
NKJV

It is a misconception to think that our bodies are not going to be redeemed, and that we will only be spirits floating around in heaven for eternity. The physical body and the whole creation which God made is going to be redeemed and restored and made new.

Rom 8:18-25
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
NKJV


This is why the Scripture speaks of "the restoration."

Acts 3:18-21
18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
NKJV

Jesus is coming back. He will bring with Him those who have died, who are with Him, and raise the dead, rapture the living, and receive us to Himself. He will change us to be glorious like Him (1 Thes 4:13-18), and we will reign with Him (Rev 5:9-10; 20:6; 21:1).

Rev 22:2-5
3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.
NKJV

Firstfruits
Apr 11th 2008, 02:21 PM
The resurrection of the physical body is an essential Christian belief. We are going to be raised just as Jesus was raised. But our bodies are going to be changed which means it will not be of the same nature as it is now.

Jesus is actually going to return to the earth to fulfill the prophecies concerning Him. There will be a physical existence; we aren't going to be ghosts. But our bodies will be like His. The disciples were able to touch Him after His resurrection and He was not a ghost.

Luke 24:36-39
Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, "Peace to you." 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
NKJV

1 John 3:2-3
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him , for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
NKJV

It is a misconception to think that our bodies are not going to be redeemed, and that we will only be spirits floating around in heaven for eternity. The physical body and the whole creation which God made is going to be redeemed and restored and made new.

Rom 8:18-25
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
NKJV


This is why the Scripture speaks of "the restoration."

Acts 3:18-21
18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
NKJV

Jesus is coming back. He will bring with Him those who have died, who are with Him, and raise the dead, rapture the living, and receive us to Himself. He will change us to be glorious like Him (1 Thes 4:13-18), and we will reign with Him (Rev 5:9-10; 20:6; 21:1).

Rev 22:2-5
3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.
NKJV

With regards to the following, if the dead are raised when Jesus returns, how does he return with those that are dead if they are not raised until he returns at the last trumpet, is there another last day?

1 Thess 4:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Jn 6:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jn 6:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 12:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Tanya~
Apr 11th 2008, 02:31 PM
With regards to the following, if the dead are raised when Jesus returns, how does he return with those that are dead if they are not raised until he returns at the last trumpet, is there another last day?


1 Thess 4:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:



Backing up a few verses from the one you quote above:
1 Thess 4:13-15

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
NKJV
The 'dead in Christ' are those who have died, who are with Him. Their bodies are in the grave, their souls are with Christ. These are those whom He will bring with Him when He returns "with all His saints"(1 Thes 3:13). He raises them first, before catching up the living believers.



(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39)Jn 6:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jn 6:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 12:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. This is when the resurrection takes place. The resurrection and the rapture are at the same time. The dead are raised first, and then the living are caught up and are changed.

1 Cor 15:21-23
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
NKJV

Did I understand the question correctly?

John146
Apr 11th 2008, 02:33 PM
How about the same as 20 years ago ... I would really like to have a head of hair again.:P

Blessings.

:lol: I don't think that's too much to ask.

John146
Apr 11th 2008, 02:39 PM
With regards to the following if we are changed in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet, how can we be in heaven before then?

1 Cor 15:42 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1 Cor 15:50 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Cor 15:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Cor 15:53 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Cor 15:54 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

If we are corruptible until the last trumpet sounds which is when we shall be changed to incorruptible, are the dead therefore still in their graves awaiting Christs return at the last trumpet?

Don't you believe a believer's spirit and soul go to be with the Lord when he/she dies? Read about Stephen in Acts 7. He gave up his spirit to the Lord as he was about to die. Who do you think are the ones who sleep in Christ that come with Him at His second coming? (1 Thess 4:13-17)? You've made posts like this one before and I asked if you believed in soul sleep and you didn't seem to understand what I was asking you. The reason I ask that question is because you don't seem to believe that a person's soul and/or spirit goes to be with the Lord in heaven when they physically die.

Firstfruits
Apr 11th 2008, 02:45 PM
Backing up a few verses from the one you quote above:
1 Thess 4:13-15



But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.



15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.


NKJV
The 'dead in Christ' are those who have died, who are with Him. Their bodies are in the grave, their souls are with Christ. These are those whom He will bring with Him when He returns "with all His saints"(1 Thes 3:13). He raises them first, before catching up the living believers.


[url="http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39"][color=#0000ff]This is when the resurrection takes place. The resurrection and the rapture are at the same time. The dead are raised first, and then the living are caught up and are changed.

1 Cor 15:21-23
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
NKJV

Did I understand the question correctly?

Yes you did understand correctly, thank you.

So since the resurrection and the saints being caught up takes place at the same time why is it that there is the belief that the saints are caught up before?

Tanya~
Apr 11th 2008, 02:49 PM
I don't believe the "pretrib" rapture is Scripturally supportable. It is a popular teaching though, and it was what I was taught as a new believer. However, when I started looking more deeply into the passages that raised questions about that view, and realized that the rapture didn't happen before the resurrection, I came to the post-trib view.

Firstfruits
Apr 11th 2008, 02:56 PM
I don't believe the "pretrib" rapture is Scripturally supportable. It is a popular teaching though, and it was what I was taught as a new believer. However, when I started looking more deeply into the passages that raised questions about that view, and realized that the rapture didn't happen before the resurrection, I came to the post-trib view.

It contradicts what Jesus said about raising the dead at the last day and then those that are alive and remain are then caught up at that time at the last day.

1 Thess 4:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

First the dead, then we which are alive.

threebigrocks
Apr 11th 2008, 03:08 PM
Revelation 20



4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.



Those who have survived the tribulation and those who were martyred during the tribulation for His name are caught up to Christ and reign 1000 years. That is their judgement, their testimony for being willing to die and be persecuted and come out standing.

At the end of the 1000 years, all the rest of the dead are raised and judged then.
This is how I've come to understand it.

Anya
Apr 11th 2008, 03:09 PM
Your heavenly body will look the same as you look today.

When Jesus came back to visit in His new body, his closest friends didnt even recognize Him, and had to see the scars again on his hands. So there will be a significant change in our bodies. I think that they will have a slight resemblance to our current bodies, but not much.

threebigrocks
Apr 11th 2008, 03:36 PM
When Jesus came back to visit in His new body, his closest friends didnt even recognize Him, and had to see the scars again on his hands. So there will be a significant change in our bodies. I think that they will have a slight resemblance to our current bodies, but not much.

I see it like this. With the Spirit not yet given, they saw with eyes of the flesh. When Christ revealed His resurrected self it was because He opened their eyes to it. Prior to that they were blind. Eyes to see, ears to hear. So much more was evident to all of them, apostles, disciples and believers, when the Spirit indwelled in them after Penticost and they had the Spirit to reveal to them the things which only He could see. Christ in us, with the flesh dead to self. Living through faith in hope for what is unseen which is the spiritual.

Firstfruits
Apr 11th 2008, 06:46 PM
Don't you believe a believer's spirit and soul go to be with the Lord when he/she dies? Read about Stephen in Acts 7. He gave up his spirit to the Lord as he was about to die. Who do you think are the ones who sleep in Christ that come with Him at His second coming? (1 Thess 4:13-17)? You've made posts like this one before and I asked if you believed in soul sleep and you didn't seem to understand what I was asking you. The reason I ask that question is because you don't seem to believe that a person's soul and/or spirit goes to be with the Lord in heaven when they physically die.

As it was I was looking at the scriptures regarding this thread and how they apply to what is beleived, this was not a case of the soul/spirit going to the Lord at the point of death, although Acts 7:59. could be applied to the believer going at the point of death, but then you could also say that after death comes the judgment,
Heb 9:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: there is nothing but judgment after death, and after death all souls that belong to Christ will be with him.
1 Jn 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall Be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall Be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 Thess 5:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

With regards to these scriptures is judgment at the point of death?

Is the coming of Christ at the point of death?

If we are already with the Lord when he comes will we not know how we shall be since we have been with him in heaven?

How would you apply these scriptures?

John146
Apr 11th 2008, 08:31 PM
As it was I was looking at the scriptures regarding this thread and how they apply to what is beleived, this was not a case of the soul/spirit going to the Lord at the point of death

Can you please just answer my question? :) Do you believe in soul sleep or not? Do you believe that the souls and spirits of believers go to heaven to be with the Lord or not? If not, what do you believe 1 Thess 4:14 is talking about?



, although Acts 7:59. could be applied to the believer going at the point of death, but then you could also say that after death comes the judgment,
Heb 9:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: there is nothing but judgment after death, and after death all souls that belong to Christ will be with him.
1 Jn 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall Be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall Be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 Thess 5:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

With regards to these scriptures is judgment at the point of death?

In a way it is. Everyone's fate is sealed at death. However, scripture is clear that there will be a day of judgment when eternal sentences will be given out and that will occur when Christ returns.



Is the coming of Christ at the point of death?

No.



If we are already with the Lord when he comes will we not know how we shall be since we have been with him in heaven?

Not necessarily. As far as 1 John 3:2, it's possible we will not see Him as He truly is in heaven until the day He returns. In other words, we may not see Him in all His glory until He returns. What do you make of Revelation 6:9-11 which pictures believers in heaven speaking to the Lord even before the return of Christ?



How would you apply these scriptures?

Hebrews 9:27 doesn't say the judgment is immediately after death. Or it could be saying that our fate is sealed at death. What it doesn't do is contradict the many scriptures that say there will be one day of judgment where all people are judged or rewarded on that day. Matthew 25:31-46 makes it clear that day occurs when Christ comes again.

I touched on 1 John 3:2 already.

1 Thess 5:23 doesn't say that the spirit, soul and body can't be separated. Otherwise why would there be a verse that talks about unbelievers being able to kill our body but not our soul? If body, soul and spirit were inseparable then if one died they'd all die. It only says that Paul prays that their spirit, soul and body will be preserved until Christ comes again. There's no reason to read any more into it than that.

Firstfruits
Apr 12th 2008, 04:02 PM
Can you please just answer my question? :) Do you believe in soul sleep or not? Do you believe that the souls and spirits of believers go to heaven to be with the Lord or not? If not, what do you believe 1 Thess 4:14 is talking about?



In a way it is. Everyone's fate is sealed at death. However, scripture is clear that there will be a day of judgment when eternal sentences will be given out and that will occur when Christ returns.



No.



Not necessarily. As far as 1 John 3:2, it's possible we will not see Him as He truly is in heaven until the day He returns. In other words, we may not see Him in all His glory until He returns. What do you make of Revelation 6:9-11 which pictures believers in heaven speaking to the Lord even before the return of Christ?



Hebrews 9:27 doesn't say the judgment is immediately after death. Or it could be saying that our fate is sealed at death. What it doesn't do is contradict the many scriptures that say there will be one day of judgment where all people are judged or rewarded on that day. Matthew 25:31-46 makes it clear that day occurs when Christ comes again.

I touched on 1 John 3:2 already.

1 Thess 5:23 doesn't say that the spirit, soul and body can't be separated. Otherwise why would there be a verse that talks about unbelievers being able to kill our body but not our soul? If body, soul and spirit were inseparable then if one died they'd all die. It only says that Paul prays that their spirit, soul and body will be preserved until Christ comes again. There's no reason to read any more into it than that.

As I said before I did not even know of a doctrine called "soul sleep" but with regards to your answers you have expained some of it.

With regards to these scriptures is judgement at the point of death? In a way it is. Everyone's fate is sealed at death. However, scripture is clear that there will be a day of judgement when eternal sentences will be given out and that will occur when Christ returns.

When you look at it this way, if we are to be judged after death and judgement is not until Jesus returns and after we are judged it will be decided wether or not we go to heaven or not, according to our works, can we therefore enter heaven before we are judged at judgement day?

Rev 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

1 Thess 5:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

With the understanding that the saints are rewarded with everlasting life at Christs return, as he promised them;

Mt 19:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Jn 6:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rev 22:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Can we receive our reward before Jesus comes?

John146
Apr 14th 2008, 08:24 PM
As I said before I did not even know of a doctrine called "soul sleep" but with regards to your answers you have expained some of it.

It appears you believe in it whether you've heard of it before or not because it seems that you don't believe the souls and spirits of the dead in Christ are with the Lord in heaven right now.



With regards to these scriptures is judgement at the point of death? In a way it is. Everyone's fate is sealed at death. However, scripture is clear that there will be a day of judgement when eternal sentences will be given out and that will occur when Christ returns.

When you look at it this way, if we are to be judged after death and judgement is not until Jesus returns and after we are judged it will be decided wether or not we go to heaven or not, according to our works, can we therefore enter heaven before we are judged at judgement day?

Rev 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

1 Thess 5:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

With the understanding that the saints are rewarded with everlasting life at Christs return, as he promised them;

Mt 19:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Jn 6:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rev 22:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Can we receive our reward before Jesus comes?FF,

No, we don't receive our reward of incorruptible, immortal BODIES until the return of Christ. That is when the redemption of our bodies will occur. This doesn't mean that the souls of believers can't be in heaven even now. Who else can it be referring to in 1 Thess 4:14 but the souls of the dead in Christ? We know that no one (except Jesus) will have a resurrected, immortal body until He returns and we're all changed (1 Cor 15:51-54), so it can't be anyone with resurrected, immortal bodies that come with Him from heaven when He returns.

Eric

Firstfruits
Apr 15th 2008, 10:29 AM
It appears you believe in it whether you've heard of it before or not because it seems that you don't believe the souls and spirits of the dead in Christ are with the Lord in heaven right now.

FF,

No, we don't receive our reward of incorruptible, immortal BODIES until the return of Christ. That is when the redemption of our bodies will occur. This doesn't mean that the souls of believers can't be in heaven even now. Who else can it be referring to in 1 Thess 4:14 but the souls of the dead in Christ? We know that no one (except Jesus) will have a resurrected, immortal body until He returns and we're all changed (1 Cor 15:51-54), so it can't be anyone with resurrected, immortal bodies that come with Him from heaven when He returns.

Eric

Before we can enter heaven the following must be fulfilled;

1 Cor 15:50 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Cor 15:53 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Cor 15:54 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Cor 15:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) In a moment, In the twInklIng of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised Incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I believe as it is written that until we are resurrected we cannot be changed, we must put on incorrution to inherit the kingdom of God.

If this is contrary to scripture can you please supply what scriptures they are?

1 Cor 15:42 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Do you agree or disagree that to live be in heaven we must first put on incorruption and put on immmortality?

To answer your other question the following may be helpful;

Dan 12:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Acts 7:59 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=59) And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Acts 7:60 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=60) And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

1 Cor 15:51 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

2 Pet 3:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.


Firstfruits

Tanya~
Apr 15th 2008, 06:15 PM
Hi firstfruits,

It seems that you are equating heaven with "the kingdom of God." Heaven itself is not an inheritance, it's just a place. The kingdom of God is the whole rule and reign of God in the new heaven and new earth. Each believer will have an inheritance and a part in that kingdom.

So a person who dies and is a spirit can depart this earth and be with Christ who is in heaven. They do not receive their inheritance until the resurrection. Prior to that time, they rest and wait.

thethirdtuttle
Apr 15th 2008, 08:52 PM
My understanding of the doctrine of "soul sleep" is as follows: When a believer in Jesus Christ physically dies, their body goes into the grave, and their soul goes to be with the Lord. From their perspective, it'll be like falling asleep at night when they go to bed, except that the intervening time between them dying and Jesus returning physically to the Earth, whether it be 10 minutes or a thousand years, will seem to be only an instant. In other words, from the dying saint's perspective, one moment they be will be falling asleep, and then the very next moment, they will be gently shaken awake by the hand of their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, as their soul is being reunited with their resurrection body. Do I think this can be backed up by Scripture? Not necessarily, but that doesn't mean it isn't valid. After all, only a small number of people were resurrected in the Bible, and none of their thoughts/remembrances/etc. of the afterlife are recorded. Just something to think about.

Yours in Him,

Benjamin

John146
Apr 15th 2008, 10:08 PM
Before we can enter heaven the following must be fulfilled;

1 Cor 15:50 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Cor 15:53 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Cor 15:54 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Cor 15:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) In a moment, In the twInklIng of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised Incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I believe as it is written that until we are resurrected we cannot be changed, we must put on incorrution to inherit the kingdom of God.

If this is contrary to scripture can you please supply what scriptures they are?

1 Cor 15:42 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Do you agree or disagree that to live be in heaven we must first put on incorruption and put on immmortality?

You are missing that these verses speak about not entering heaven or the kingdom of God BODILY until we put on incorruptible and immortal BODIES.



To answer your other question the following may be helpful;

Dan 12:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Acts 7:59 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=59) And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Acts 7:60 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=60) And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

1 Cor 15:51 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

2 Pet 3:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. Yes, and notice in Acts 7:59 that Stephen asks Jesus to receive his spirit even though his BODY was about to die and would be asleep (dead) until Jesus returns. We await the redemption of our bodies, not the redemption of our souls and spirits.

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2008, 08:12 AM
You are missing that these verses speak about not entering heaven or the kingdom of God BODILY until we put on incorruptible and immortal BODIES.

Yes, and notice in Acts 7:59 that Stephen asks Jesus to receive his spirit even though his BODY was about to die and would be asleep (dead) until Jesus returns. We await the redemption of our bodies, not the redemption of our souls and spirits.

Thanks John,

Does what you say also apply to the following?

Job 14:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 14:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: Thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

What does he mean by "till the heavens be no more"?

What does he mean by "until thy wrath be past"?

What is the "change" that he will wait for?

When does he expect to be called?

With regards to the resurrection, according to the following if the saints are already with Jesus when they die, why would they perish if they are not resurrected?

1 Cor 15:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Firstfruits

John146
Apr 16th 2008, 02:42 PM
Thanks John,

Does what you say also apply to the following?

Job 14:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 14:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: Thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Yes, I believe so. I believe he's speaking of his body "sleeping".



What does he mean by "till the heavens be no more"?He's speaking of the current heavens being replaced by the new heavens.

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. - Isaiah 65:17

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. - Rev 21:1

12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. - 2 Peter 3:12-13

The resurrection of the dead occurs at the same general time as the appearing of the new heavens and new earth (see 1 Cor 15:51-54, Isaiah 25:8, Rev 21:1-4)



What does he mean by "until thy wrath be past"?Once God's wrath comes down and is over, then the resurrection of the dead occurs.



What is the "change" that he will wait for?This:

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. - 1 Cor 15:51-52




When does he expect to be called?When Christ returns.

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. - John 5:28-29




With regards to the resurrection, according to the following if the saints are already with Jesus when they die, why would they perish if they are not resurrected?

1 Cor 15:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. [

FirstfruitsYou have to look at the context of that verse. It was a rhetorical or hypothetical statement and not a statement of fact.

12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. - 1 Cor 15:12-19 (NKJV)

Notice that throughout this passage Paul is saying that IF Christ is not risen, then there is no resurrection of the dead, which would mean there is no hope for us to be resurrected, either. He was speaking only in terms of what would be the case IF Christ was not risen. But, of course, He is risen. So, to understand verse 18, you have to first read verse 17. What Paul was saying is that if Christ wasn't risen then our faith would be futile and we'd still be in our sins and those who have fallen asleep or died physically would have perished and would never live physically again. In other words, if Christ was not risen then Paul was saying those who were physically dead would never have their bodies resurrected and changed and made immortal and incorruptible. Also, if Christ was not risen, no one would be saved, which is why he says they would perish in that case. If Christ was not risen, not only would there would be no hope for spiritual life, but no hope of our bodies being redeemed, either. If Christ was not risen, no one's soul and spirit would be with Him in heaven because, for one thing, even He wouldn't be in heaven if He wasn't resurrected. Also, His resurrection is a crucial requirement for our salvation, so without it, there's no hope for anyone to be in heaven.

Eric

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2008, 02:54 PM
Yes, I believe so. I believe he's speaking of his body "sleeping".

He's speaking of the current heavens being replaced by the new heavens.

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. - Isaiah 65:17

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. - Rev 21:1

12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. - 2 Peter 3:12-13

The resurrection of the dead occurs at the same general time as the appearing of the new heavens and new earth (see 1 Cor 15:51-54, Isaiah 25:8, Rev 21:1-4)

Once God's wrath comes down and is over, then the resurrection of the dead occurs.

This:

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. - 1 Cor 15:51-52

When Christ returns.

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. - John 5:28-29

You have to look at the context of that verse. It was a rhetorical or hypothetical statement and not a statement of fact.

12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. - 1 Cor 15:12-19 (NKJV)

Notice that throughout this passage Paul is saying that IF Christ is not risen, then there is no resurrection of the dead, which would mean there is no hope for us to be resurrected, either. He was speaking only in terms of what would be the case IF Christ was not risen. But, of course, He is risen. So, to understand verse 18, you have to first read verse 17. What Paul was saying is that if Christ wasn't risen then our faith would be futile and we'd still be in our sins and those who have fallen asleep or died physically in Christ would have perished and would never live again. In other words, if Christ was not risen then Paul was saying those who were physically dead would never have their bodies resurrected and changed and made immortal and incorruptible.

Eric

Thanks Eric,

Can we not be immortal or incorruptible without being resurrected?

If we are in Heaven, would we not have to be immortal and incorruptible?

Are those in the following not resurrected before they go to Heaven and reign with Christ?

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

John146
Apr 16th 2008, 03:21 PM
Thanks Eric,

Can we not be immortal or incorruptible without being resurrected?

Our souls and spirits can be. We are already born again spiritually of incorruptible seed (1 Peter 1:23).



If we are in Heaven, would we not have to be immortal and incorruptible?

Yes. Don't you believe we are born again spiritually of incorruptible seed? As I said before, when we're physically dead then we will await the redemption of our BODIES. Our spirits and souls will already have been redeemed.



Are those in the following not resurrected before they go to Heaven and reign with Christ?

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Nowhere in that passage does it say that the believers are physically resurrected before they reign with Christ. Notice that John sees the SOULS of the dead in Christ. These souls live and reign with Christ. Obviously, they do not reign physically with Him on the earth. He's in heaven. That's where the souls of the dead in Christ reign with Him.

Jesus opens the seven seals in heaven, right? Look at this passage:

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. - Revelation 6:9-11


So, John sees Jesus, in heaven, opening the fifth seal. He also sees, in heaven, "the souls of them that were slain for the word of God". They ask how long it would be before their deaths are all avenged. They are in heaven, waiting for their deaths to be avenged as God promised to do, and also waiting for the redemption of their bodies.

Firstfruits
Apr 16th 2008, 03:39 PM
Our souls and spirits can be. We are already born again spiritually of incorruptible seed (1 Peter 1:23).



Yes. Don't you believe we are born again spiritually of incorruptible seed? As I said before, when we're physically dead then we will await the redemption of our BODIES. Our spirits and souls will already have been redeemed.



Nowhere in that passage does it say that the believers are physically resurrected before they reign with Christ. Notice that John sees the SOULS of the dead in Christ. These souls live and reign with Christ. Obviously, they do not reign physically with Him on the earth. He's in heaven. That's where the souls of the dead in Christ reign with Him.

Jesus opens the seven seals in heaven, right? Look at this passage:

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. - Revelation 6:9-11


So, John sees Jesus, in heaven, opening the fifth seal. He also sees, in heaven, "the souls of them that were slain for the word of God". They ask how long it would be before their deaths are all avenged. They are in heaven, waiting for their deaths to be avenged as God promised to do, and also waiting for the redemption of their bodies.

If there is no resurrection then who are the blessed in the following?

Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

If after the first resurrection the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years were finished doesn't that mean that they were physically resurrected in the first resurrection?

John146
Apr 16th 2008, 04:16 PM
If there is no resurrection then who are the blessed in the following?

Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean when you say "if there is no resurrection". Can you clarify that? The ones who are blessed that take part in the first resurrection are believers.



If after the first resurrection the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years were finished doesn't that mean that they were physically resurrected in the first resurrection?No. Why do you ask that? It says only those who are blessed and holy take part in the first resurrection. The rest of the dead aren't resurrected at all until after the thousand years. Believers are resurrected spiritually before then by taking part in Christ's resurrection when we are born again. Unbelievers do not take part in that resurrection. Everyone takes part in the physical resurrection that occurs when Christ returns after the thousand years. Read John 5:28-29 and you should see that all people, saved and lost, are physically resurrected at the same time. This occurs on the last day. I have even seen you point this out by referring to verses like John 6:40 and John 12:48, one of which mentions believers being raised on the last day and the other mentions unbelievers being judged on the last day. Unbelievers can't be judged unless they are raised first, right? Therefore, the general physical resurrection of the dead spoken about in John 5:28-29 cannot be the first resurrection, because only believers take part in the first resurrection.

Firstfruits
Apr 17th 2008, 07:47 AM
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean when you say "if there is no resurrection". Can you clarify that? The ones who are blessed that take part in the first resurrection are believers.

No. Why do you ask that? It says only those who are blessed and holy take part in the first resurrection. The rest of the dead aren't resurrected at all until after the thousand years. Believers are resurrected spiritually before then by taking part in Christ's resurrection when we are born again. Unbelievers do not take part in that resurrection. Everyone takes part in the physical resurrection that occurs when Christ returns after the thousand years. Read John 5:28-29 and you should see that all people, saved and lost, are physically resurrected at the same time. This occurs on the last day. I have even seen you point this out by referring to verses like John 6:40 and John 12:48, one of which mentions believers being raised on the last day and the other mentions unbelievers being judged on the last day. Unbelievers can't be judged unless they are raised first, right? Therefore, the general physical resurrection of the dead spoken about in John 5:28-29 cannot be the first resurrection, because only believers take part in the first resurrection.

If neither are the physical resurrection of the dead then when will it be since after the thousand years is judgment?

Rev 20:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And I saw the dead, small And great, stAnd before God; And the books were opened: And another book was opened, which is the book of life: And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

John146
Apr 17th 2008, 07:25 PM
If neither are the physical resurrection of the dead then when will it be since after the thousand years is judgment?

Rev 20:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And I saw the dead, small And great, stAnd before God; And the books were opened: And another book was opened, which is the book of life: And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

I didn't say neither are the physical resurrection of the dead. The resurrection that occurs after the thousand years is the physical resurrection of the dead. Everyone will be resurrected and then will stand before the throne of God. We know from Daniel 12:1-2, John 5:28-29 and Acts 24:15 that all people, saved and lost, will be physically resurrected at the same time and we know from Matthew 25:31-46 that everyone will stand before the throne of judgment at the same time.

Firstfruits
Apr 18th 2008, 08:19 AM
I didn't say neither are the physical resurrection of the dead. The resurrection that occurs after the thousand years is the physical resurrection of the dead. Everyone will be resurrected and then will stand before the throne of God. We know from Daniel 12:1-2, John 5:28-29 and Acts 24:15 that all people, saved and lost, will be physically resurrected at the same time and we know from Matthew 25:31-46 that everyone will stand before the throne of judgment at the same time.

We know that those in the first resurrection are seen in heaven on the sea of glass;
Rev 15:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Rev 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 13:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Do not forget that until Jesus was physically resurrected he did not ascend to the Father.

David Taylor
Apr 18th 2008, 12:33 PM
We know that those in the first resurrection are seen in heaven on the sea of glass;


These are the saints in Heaven now, those who died in faith in Christ during their normal lives; spanning the historic centuries and present and future time leading up to Christ's return; and the final Great day of Judgment and the bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust; on the Last day.

Firstfruits
Apr 18th 2008, 01:51 PM
These are the saints in Heaven now, those who died in faith in Christ during their normal lives; spanning the historic centuries and present and future time leading up to Christ's return; and the final Great day of Judgment and the bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust; on the Last day.

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

If the mark of the beast and his image and worship of the beast is yet to come according to what is written that he will do, in order to deceive the earth, how can they be saints that are already with the Lord in heaven if that event has not yet been fulfilled?

Rev 15:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

How can they get the victory over the beast until he is revealed?

David Taylor
Apr 18th 2008, 02:09 PM
If the mark of the beast and his image and worship of the beast is yet to come according to what is written that he will do, in order to deceive the earth, how can they be saints that are already with the Lord in heaven if that event has not yet been fulfilled?

How can they get the victory over the beast until he is revealed?


Because the beast and his image and his worship are not yet to come....but an continuing condition that spans the entire NT harvest; concluding at the 2nd Coming; not waiting to start just prior to the 2nd Coming in our future.

The saints are already with the Lord in Heaven, because many untold billions of them have already died and gone on to be with the Lord.

Their victory over the beast, was through the blood of the Lamb, and that is why/how they are seen as a great sea of glass in Heaven.

The uncountable multitude from every tongue tribe and nation.

Firstfruits
Apr 18th 2008, 02:17 PM
Because the beast and his image and his worship are not yet to come....but an continuing condition that spans the entire NT harvest; concluding at the 2nd Coming; not waiting to start just prior to the 2nd Coming in our future.

The saints are already with the Lord in Heaven, because many untold billions of them have already died and gone on to be with the Lord.

Their victory over the beast, was through the blood of the Lamb, and that is why/how they are seen as a great sea of glass in Heaven.

The uncountable multitude from every tongue tribe and nation.

When did the following happen?

Rev 13:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev 13:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Rev 13:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Rev 13:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

John146
Apr 18th 2008, 02:17 PM
Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

If the mark of the beast and his image and worship of the beast is yet to come according to what is written that he will do, in order to deceive the earth, how can they be saints that are already with the Lord in heaven if that event has not yet been fulfilled?

Rev 15:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

How can they get the victory over the beast until he is revealed?

Because the beast has been around a long time already.

Rev 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The beast "was" even before John wrote the book of Revelation. At the time he wrote the book, the beast "is not, and yet is". And future from John's time the beast "shall ascend out of the bottomless pit". I believe the beast refers to Satan's kingdom of darkness which is reflected by the spirit of antichrist or spirit of the world which once kept almost the entire world in spiritual darkness. Then Christ came and the gospel shined light into the darkness and the power of Satan and the beast were restrained. It's power was no longer what it was before Christ came. That's why John could say that the beast "is not, and yet is". Then at a later time the beast would ascend out of the bottomless pit. Who is the one that was placed in the bottomless pit? Satan. So, John was speaking of the time when Satan and his kingdom would be loosed from the bottomless pit (no longer restrained) to once again deceive the nations as he did before Christ came the first time.

But my main point is to show you that the beast has been around a long time already and is not just an entity that will appear in the very last days.

Eric

Firstfruits
Apr 18th 2008, 02:38 PM
Because the beast has been around a long time already.

Rev 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The beast "was" even before John wrote the book of Revelation. At the time he wrote the book, the beast "is not, and yet is". And future from John's time the beast "shall ascend out of the bottomless pit". I believe the beast refers to Satan's kingdom of darkness which is reflected by the spirit of antichrist or spirit of the world which once kept almost the entire world in spiritual darkness. Then Christ came and the gospel shined light into the darkness and the power of Satan and the beast were restrained. It's power was no longer what it was before Christ came. That's why John could say that the beast "is not, and yet is". Then at a later time the beast would ascend out of the bottomless pit. Who is the one that was placed in the bottomless pit? Satan. So, John was speaking of the time when Satan and his kingdom would be loosed from the bottomless pit (no longer restrained) to once again deceive the nations as he did before Christ came the first time.

But my main point is to show you that the beast has been around a long time already and is not just an entity that will appear in the very last days.

Eric

So are you saying that the beast has been revealed, meaning that the falling away has been fulfilled? And that the 42 months that he reigns over the saints has passed? What about the second beast that enforces worship of the first beast?

John146
Apr 18th 2008, 03:05 PM
So are you saying that the beast has been revealed, meaning that the falling away has been fulfilled? And that the 42 months that he reigns over the saints has passed? What about the second beast that enforces worship of the first beast?

Do you have any direct response to what I said in my previous post? You always reply with more questions. Did what I said regarding Revelation 17:8 make sense to you?

David Taylor
Apr 18th 2008, 10:35 PM
When did the following happen?

Rev 13:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev 13:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Rev 13:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Rev 13:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.



Those chapter 13 verses span from the 1st century through to our present day, all the way to the final triumph of Christ at His return. Anyone who is not written in the Lamb's book of Life, follows the Beast; regardless of the century they live in.

The chapter 19 verse depicts the final battle at Christ's return, when evil is defeated, and Christ and His redeemed triumph forevermore.

The chapter 6 verse spans from the 1st century through to the 2nd Coming (those who have already died) and focuses on the martyred of the NT era.

Firstfruits
Apr 20th 2008, 10:28 AM
Do you have any direct response to what I said in my previous post? You always reply with more questions. Did what I said regarding Revelation 17:8 make sense to you?

I understand what you have said regarding Revelation 17:8 and I agree, but the events in this scripture are very specific and the beast at this time will be here at the return of Christ, so although all that you have said is right concerning Revelation 17:8 the same must also be true for the beast and the false prophet to be cast alive into the lake of fire.

Firstfruits
Apr 20th 2008, 10:35 AM
Do you have any direct response to what I said in my previous post? You always reply with more questions. Did what I said regarding Revelation 17:8 make sense to you?

I understand what have said regarding Revelation 17:8, and I agree with you, however the events in the following scripture are very specific and according to scripture and history has not net been fulfilled and cannot be until the return of Jesus.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This false Christ/beast will be like no other false Christ the earth has ever known and shall do signs and wonders like no one has ever known. He is yet to come.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Apr 20th 2008, 10:47 AM
Those chapter 13 verses span from the 1st century through to our present day, all the way to the final triumph of Christ at His return. Anyone who is not written in the Lamb's book of Life, follows the Beast; regardless of the century they live in.

The chapter 19 verse depicts the final battle at Christ's return, when evil is defeated, and Christ and His redeemed triumph forevermore.

The chapter 6 verse spans from the 1st century through to the 2nd Coming (those who have already died) and focuses on the martyred of the NT era.

At which point in time has there been a false Christ/beast that the whole earth worships and his woship enforced by another? According to the scriptures the beast and false prophet are here at a specific time, and revealed at a specific time (unknown) if the events are ongoing and the beast is already know, then it cannot be that which is prophesied.

2 Thess 2:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, And shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Firstfruits

John146
Apr 21st 2008, 08:34 PM
I understand what have said regarding Revelation 17:8, and I agree with you, however the events in the following scripture are very specific and according to scripture and history has not net been fulfilled and cannot be until the return of Jesus.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This false Christ/beast will be like no other false Christ the earth has ever known and shall do signs and wonders like no one has ever known. He is yet to come.

Are you saying the beast of Revelation 19 is a different beast than the beast of Revelation 17? It's the same beast. So, if it's a man then he's about 2,000 years old. If it's not a man then it makes sense that the beast has been around a long time, as indicated in Revelation 17:8, and will come out of the bottomless pit and go into perdition. Anyway, I'm not saying Revelation 19:19-20 is fulfilled, just so you know.

cwb
Apr 22nd 2008, 02:31 AM
Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

If the mark of the beast and his image and worship of the beast is yet to come according to what is written that he will do, in order to deceive the earth, how can they be saints that are already with the Lord in heaven if that event has not yet been fulfilled?

Rev 15:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

How can they get the victory over the beast until he is revealed?

The beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit is a different beast than the one that ascends out of the sea and the beast that ascends out of the sea is yet a different beast than the one who ascends out of the bottomless pit. There are three different beasts in the book of Revelation.

Firstfruits
Apr 22nd 2008, 07:49 AM
Are you saying the beast of Revelation 19 is a different beast than the beast of Revelation 17? It's the same beast. So, if it's a man then he's about 2,000 years old. If it's not a man then it makes sense that the beast has been around a long time, as indicated in Revelation 17:8, and will come out of the bottomless pit and go into perdition. Anyway, I'm not saying Revelation 19:19-20 is fulfilled, just so you know.

According to the following it is the same.

Rev 16:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Rev 16:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.


Rev 17:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev 19:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

The great day of God almighty is yet to come.

Firstfruits
Apr 22nd 2008, 07:52 AM
The beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit is a different beast than the one that ascends out of the sea and the beast that ascends out of the sea is yet a different beast than the one who ascends out of the bottomless pit. There are three different beasts in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 13 deals with the beast/beasts mentioned in these scriptures.

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 15:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

cwb
Apr 22nd 2008, 10:43 PM
Revelation 13 deals with the beast/beasts mentioned in these scriptures.

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 15:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

I agree with you that the beast in these verses are speaking of the same beast as Rev 13 but I believe the beast mentioned in Rev 17 and Rev 11 are different beasts since the one in Rev 17 comes out of the bottomless pit.

Firstfruits
Apr 23rd 2008, 09:14 AM
I agree with you that the beast in these verses are speaking of the same beast as Rev 13 but I believe the beast mentioned in Rev 17 and Rev 11 are different beasts since the one in Rev 17 comes out of the bottomless pit.

These also make war with the lamb;

Rev 17:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Compare those with these;

Rev 16:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Rev 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And he gathered them together into a place called in the hebrew tongue Armageddon.

John146
Apr 23rd 2008, 03:09 PM
I agree with you that the beast in these verses are speaking of the same beast as Rev 13 but I believe the beast mentioned in Rev 17 and Rev 11 are different beasts since the one in Rev 17 comes out of the bottomless pit.

So, using that logic, do you think the beast of Rev 11 and 17 is the same since they both come out of the bottomless pit? It seemed in an earlier post you said the beasts of Rev. 11, 13 and 17 are three different beasts.

The beast of Rev 13 has seven heads and ten horns. So does the beast of Rev 17. I don't see why they would not be the same. If they're not the same, then which beast is cast into the lake of fire in Rev. 19?

cwb
Apr 23rd 2008, 10:06 PM
So, using that logic, do you think the beast of Rev 11 and 17 is the same since they both come out of the bottomless pit? It seemed in an earlier post you said the beasts of Rev. 11, 13 and 17 are three different beasts.



I believe the beast in Rev 17 and Rev 11 are the same beast. I also believe that the two mentioned in Rev 13 are different beasts than the one in Rev. 17. I see three beasts in the book of Revelation - One who ascends out of the bottomless pit, one who ascends out of the sea, and one who ascends out of the earth.



The beast of Rev 13 has seven heads and ten horns. So does the beast of Rev 17. I don't see why they would not be the same. If they're not the same, then which beast is cast into the lake of fire in Rev. 19?


Just because they both have seven heads and ten horns does not make them the same beast. Just because something in the bible is similar does not mean it is identical. The beast in Rev 13 and the one in Rev 17 ascend out of different places.

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2008, 09:51 AM
I believe the beast in Rev 17 and Rev 11 are the same beast. I also believe that the two mentioned in Rev 13 are different beasts than the one in Rev. 17. I see three beasts in the book of Revelation - One who ascends out of the bottomless pit, one who ascends out of the sea, and one who ascends out of the earth.



Just because they both have seven heads and ten horns does not make them the same beast. Just because something in the bible is similar does not mean it is identical. The beast in Rev 13 and the one in Rev 17 ascend out of different places.

What would you say are the differences between the following descriptions of the beast?

Rev 13:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Rev 13:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Rev 17:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Rev 17:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Why is there only one beast and one false prophet cast into the lake of fire?

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2008, 10:46 AM
Are the following scriptures about the same event?

Rev 11:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev 12:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 13:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev 13:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

John146
Apr 24th 2008, 08:35 PM
I believe the beast in Rev 17 and Rev 11 are the same beast.

Okay, thanks. That's what I wasn't clear about in what you said.


I also believe that the two mentioned in Rev 13 are different beasts than the one in Rev. 17.

I see three beasts in the book of Revelation - One who ascends out of the bottomless pit, one who ascends out of the sea, and one who ascends out of the earth.

Just because they both have seven heads and ten horns does not make them the same beast. Just because something in the bible is similar does not mean it is identical. The beast in Rev 13 and the one in Rev 17 ascend out of different places.

Okay, but what about my question. If that was the case, which beast is the one cast into the lake of fire in Rev 19? I assume you agree that the false prophet is the same as the second beast of Rev 13. Since you believe there are three beasts, why does Rev 19 only speak of two of them being cast into the lake of fire? What about the other one?

John146
Apr 24th 2008, 08:36 PM
Are the following scriptures about the same event?

Rev 11:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev 12:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 13:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev 13:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

I believe so. The similarity of the wording is hard to miss.

Firstfruits
Apr 25th 2008, 10:09 AM
I believe so. The similarity of the wording is hard to miss.

Thanks John146, there would therefore be only one beast and one false prophet. regarding the scriptures in question.