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Bthings
Apr 11th 2008, 11:56 PM
I have a few questions


1) Is God capible of sinning?
CAN He, but He just doesn't want to? or is it totally impossible for Him?


2,a) Could God of made us perfect like Him with no desire to sin?

2,b) could God of made us like Him in every way? as powerful as Him and as perfect as Him.

Tanya~
Apr 12th 2008, 12:52 AM
Hi B :)


I have a few questions


1) Is God capible of sinning?
CAN He, but He just doesn't want to? or is it totally impossible for Him?

It is not possible. The reason is that sin is acting contrary to God's will. And God can't act contrary to His own will and nature.



2,a) Could God of made us perfect like Him with no desire to sin?

Yes He could have, but He gave us free will so that we could love Him freely rather than because we had no choice.


2,b) could God of made us like Him in every way? as powerful as Him and as perfect as Him.

We were made in His image. But God cannot make a duplicate of Himself, because He Himself is uncreated. He is self-existent, and it's not possible to create something that is self-existent. He created us in His image though, and gave us life.

ilovemetal
Apr 12th 2008, 01:28 AM
:agree: with this.

Athanasius
Apr 12th 2008, 01:30 AM
I have a few questions


1) Is God capible of sinning?
CAN He, but He just doesn't want to? or is it totally impossible for Him?


2,a) Could God of made us perfect like Him with no desire to sin?

2,b) could God of made us like Him in every way? as powerful as Him and as perfect as Him.

1) No, impossible
2) This question is too loaded... To have no desire to sin is in effect the removal of free will. You could rephrase it, "Could God of made us perfect like Him with no desire to disobey"--it's the same thing. And yes He could have, but then we'd be robots...
3) No, not logically possible.

Bthings
Apr 12th 2008, 01:34 AM
Hi B :)

hah HI :)


It is not possible. The reason is that sin is acting contrary to God's will. And God can't act contrary to His own will and nature.

What do you mean by His "will"? What He 'wants'?


Yes He could have, but He gave us free will so that we could love Him freely rather than because we had no choice.

God has free will and He doesn't sin, and He loves people. So is it possible for God to have created us like Him in the way He has no desire to sin?


We were made in His image. But God cannot make a duplicate of Himself, because He Himself is uncreated. He is self-existent, and it's not possible to create something that is self-existent. He created us in His image though, and gave us life.

Can't God just create an immortal being who can't sin, who loves everything that's good, and who can tell anything what to do and it will happen?
I mean, isn't that what God is(as far as we can tell)?

Tanya~
Apr 12th 2008, 01:54 AM
hah HI :)


[QUOTE]
What do you mean by His "will"? What He 'wants'?

Well, sort of. What God 'wants' is His will, and God's will is what He 'wants.' God's will is His determination, purpose, wish, desire, that sort of thing. It is part of His nature. You might want to look up 'will' in the dictionary.




God has free will doesn't sin, and He loves people. So is it possible for God to have created us like Him in the way He has no desire to sin?

I don't know if there's much point in even asking that, because the fact is that He did create us with the choice of obeying or disobeying Him. He has a purpose in it. God made things in such a way that His nature and attributes would be manifested and known outside of Himself. For example, God is forgiving. If there was nothing to forgive, then that attribute would not be expressed or known. He is merciful. With nothing on which to have mercy, that attribute would not be manifested. So by creating things as they are, He manifests Himself fully.



Can't God just create an immortal being who can't sin, who loves everything that's good, and who can tell anything what to do and it will happen?
I mean, isn't that what God is(as far as we can tell)?

God made man with the potential to sin because God is also Savior and Redeemer.

Bthings
Apr 12th 2008, 03:10 AM
Well, sort of. What God 'wants' is His will, and God's will is what He 'wants.' God's will is His determination, purpose, wish, desire, that sort of thing. It is part of His nature. You might want to look up 'will' in the dictionary.

Okay then so
why isn't God capable of sinning but just doesn't want to and so He won't ever do it?


that, because the fact is I don't know if there's much point in even asking that He did create us with the choice of obeying or disobeying Him.

Well i was just thinking, if God could of created us like Him with no desire to sin, then why didn't He?
I mean, that doesn't seem very Just does it?


He has a purpose in it. God made things in such a way that His nature and attributes would be manifested and known outside of Himself. For example, God is forgiving. If there was nothing to forgive, then that attribute would not be expressed or known. He is merciful. With nothing on which to have mercy, that attribute would not be manifested. So by creating things as they are, He manifests Himself fully.

Why do ALL of His attributes need to be expressed or known? Why does He need to be manifested fully?


God made man with the potential to sin because God is also Savior and Redeemer.

Wait, I don't get it, God made man to need saving just so that He could save him?

Tanya~
Apr 12th 2008, 03:56 AM
Okay then so
why isn't God capable of sinning but just doesn't want to and so He won't ever do it?

? He isn't capable of sinning. Sin is contrary to God's will, and that makes no sense for God to do something against His own will.




Well i was just thinking, if God could of created us like Him with no desire to sin, then why didn't He?
I mean, that doesn't seem very Just does it?

Maybe just go back and re-read what I wrote before. I already answered this :) God made things this way on purpose to manifest His attributes.




Why do ALL of His attributes need to be expressed or known? Why does He need to be manifested fully?

Why shouldn't He? If that's what He wants to do, then why shouldn't He do that? He's God.




Wait, I don't get it, God made man to need saving just so that He could save him?

Yeah, I think so.

Bthings
Apr 12th 2008, 04:18 AM
He isn't capable of sinning. Sin is contrary to God's will, and that makes no sense for God to do something against His own will.

Right, He doesn't want to sin, but that doesn't mean that He's not 'capable' of sinning.
It's like, I am capable of eating mint ice cream, but I don't want to and I never have before, but I still could eat it IF I wanted to, right?
Just 'cause you don't want to do something doesn't mean you can't, right?


Why shouldn't He? If that's what He wants to do, then why shouldn't He do that? He's God.

Of course He can do whatever He wants with all the power He has. If I had all that power I'd do lots of stuff I wanted to too.

But that's not what this is about, I asked why do they NEED to be expressed or known, Why does He NEED to be manifested fully.

something's just not right to me. He wants people to know just how merciful He is, by setting them up to sin and so they deserve a punishment, But now He can show just how merciful He is by not punishing them. Is that right?



Wait, I don't get it, God made man to need saving just so that He could save him?Yeah, I think so.

But that just sounds so wrong.

I mean, you put someone in danger just so you can show what a good guy you are by saving them, doesn't that just sound wrong? I mean sure you saved them, but you also put them in danger, so wouldn't you be wrong to put them in danger in the first place?

Tanya~
Apr 12th 2008, 04:40 AM
Right, He doesn't want to sin, but that doesn't mean that He's not 'capable' of sinning.
It's like, I am capable of eating mint ice cream, but I don't want to and I never have before, but I still could eat it IF I wanted to, right?
Just 'cause you don't want to do something doesn't mean you can't, right?

In this case it is not possible, because it is not in God's character or nature to sin. You can't fly on your own power because it is not your nature to fly. God can't sin because it is not His nature to do what is contrary to His own will. He can't offend Himself.



But that's not what this is about, I asked why do they NEED to be expressed or known, Why does He NEED to be manifested fully.

I don't know if it's a matter of NEED or if it's a matter of course that God will be fully manifested because it is God's nature to manifest Himself.


something's just not right to me. He wants people to know just how merciful He is, by setting them up to sin and so they deserve a punishment, But now He can show just how merciful He is by not punishing them. Is that right?

Man was given the choice and commanded to obey so he wasn't 'set up' by God. If you dislike it that's your choice too. But you haven't been 'set up' by God to reject Him.



I mean, you put someone in danger just so you can show what a good guy you are by saving them, doesn't that just sound wrong? I mean sure you saved them, but you also put them in danger, so wouldn't you be wrong to put them in danger in the first place?

God didn't put man in danger. God put man in a perfect environment and gave him one law. Man chose to disobey that law and put himself in danger. Your dislike of how God chose to create things doesn't make it wrong. You're essentially saying that God is the bad guy because He gave you the choice to obey or disobey Him. That is not an evil thing.

Why do you not like having the choice?

Bthings
Apr 12th 2008, 06:08 AM
In this case it is not possible, because it is not in God's character or nature to sin. You can't fly on your own power because it is not your nature to fly. God can't sin because it is not His nature to do what is contrary to His own will. He can't offend Himself.

Okay, that makes sense. thanks :)


I don't know if it's a matter of NEED or if it's a matter of course that God will be fully manifested because it is God's nature to manifest Himself.

So He will manifest Himself at the cost of other people's lives and unhappiness??


Man was given the choice and commanded to obey so he wasn't 'set up' by God. If you dislike it that's your choice too. But you haven't been 'set up' by God to reject Him.

I didn't mean 'set up' to reject Him, I meant 'set up' to sin. God created us with the desire to sin (we already established that He could of created us with no desire to sin), and then He will send us to hell if we don't accept Him. Now life would be fine if everyone would just accept Him, but we shouldn't have to accept Him because He shouldn't punish us for doing what He created us to do. does that make sense?



God didn't put man in danger. God put man in a perfect environment and gave him one law. Man chose to disobey that law and put himself in danger.

Man never would of broken that Law if God hadn't created Him with the desire to sin.


Your dislike of how God chose to create things doesn't make it wrong. You're essentially saying that God is the bad guy because He gave you the choice to obey or disobey Him. That is not an evil thing.

My dislike has nothing to do with it. I'm essentially saying that God is the bad guy because He created us with the desire to sin, and then gave us the choice to obey or disobey Him.


Why do you not like having the choice?

What's my choice? If it's to accept God or not, then I will accept God as much as I can (to avoid hell) But I just can't agree with His ways/motives.

Bthings
Apr 12th 2008, 06:14 AM
1) No, impossible

fair enough.


2) This question is too loaded... To have no desire to sin is in effect the removal of free will. You could rephrase it, "Could God of made us perfect like Him with no desire to disobey"--it's the same thing. And yes He could have, but then we'd be robots...

But to sin would be disobeying God, to disobey God would be a sin. Sin=disobey, no?

Also, if God has free will but has no desire to sin, then why can't we have free will and have no desire to sin?


3) No, not logically possible.

Why not? If God is all powerful why can't He create an equally powerful being?

Athanasius
Apr 12th 2008, 06:17 AM
But to sin would be disobeying God, to disobey God would be a sin. Sin=disobey God, no?

I'm pretty sure that's what I said...



Also, if God has free will but has no desire to sin, then why can't we have free will and have no desire to sin?

Because we aren't God. Removing the desire is impeding on our ability to freely make choices. If you can't make the choice to go against, you aren't really free.



Why not? If God is all powerful why can't He create an equally powerful being?

No, because that equally powerful thing would have to be eternal as well, and it could never be.

Bthings
Apr 12th 2008, 07:13 AM
I'm pretty sure that's what I said...

oh okay, lol. i thought you said that my question was too loaded because I used the word 'sin' instead of 'disobey'.


Because we aren't God. Removing the desire is impeding on our ability to freely make choices. If you can't make the choice to go against, you aren't really free.

Why can't we just have the desire to good instead of sin? We would still have a choice, but we wouldn't want to sin, so we most likely wouldn't.

Also, How is that God has free will if He has no desire to sin yet we won't have free will unless we us have a desire to sin?
Why can't we be like God?


No, because that equally powerful thing would have to be eternal as well, and it could never be.

Couldn't God just create a very powerful being that got created?
How does being created make it any least powerful?

Athanasius
Apr 12th 2008, 07:42 AM
Why can't we just have the desire to good instead of sin? We would still have a choice, but we wouldn't want to sin, so we most likely wouldn't.

It's more a problem of semantics. In other words you're asking is, "Why can't we just have the desire not to disobey God instead of disobey God?' The second part then wouldn't make sense, we wouldn't have a choice.



Also, How is that God has free will if He has no desire to sin yet we won't have free will unless we us have a desire to sin?
Why can't we be like God?

Because He's God and we're not? There's really not much more too it than that.



Couldn't God just create a very powerful being that got created?
How does being created make it any least powerful?

Once again you asked if God could make us like him in every way. No, not logically possible.

chisel
Apr 12th 2008, 07:48 AM
Hi BThings,

Think about what you're saying for a second. You're basically implying that God is the guilty party because He allows us to sin against Him? Isn't that exactly what you're saying? You're basically saying that God is guilty and should rightfully be punished for creating us the way He did, no so?

God who is perfect and tolerates no sin, created us in His image, but created us not as stones or robots, but individuals. He has given us the freedom to choose good and evil and He has given us very clear instructions on what He wants and what the result of disobedience is. But just as lucifer loves himself, so we love ourselves and we choose to do what we feel is best for us, even if it means going against God's wishes, and because we have this capability, God is guilty? God should NOT have done this?

Do you see man's sinful self-righteousness at work even in your own words, BThings? We disobey God, but then we blame God for our disobedience.

God has given us relationships on earth so that we can have examples of our relationship with Him. Now picture this relationship between a father and his very beautiful daughter.

The father is very protective of her and thus, he doesn't want her to hang around with boys who might break her heart, so what does he do. He takes a razor-blade and slashes her face, so that she'll be so ugly that no boy would dare to look at her. He forces her to bath in pig manure so that she would smell, so that no boy would dare to come close to her. Then , just to make sure, he keeps her locked in his basement where no 'evil' will find her. Problem solved, right? Would you say these are the actions of a 'good' father?
Isn't this exactly what you expect from God?
You want God to FORCE us not to sin, to remove us from all possibility of sin and to create us, with no choice so that we never would sin? And if He doesn't you pronounce Him guilty of allowing us to sin?

What would the complaint of such a daughter be? She would say, "My father says he loves me, but look at how he distrusts me. How can he say that he loves me if he does this?".

Would it not be better if a father TAUGHT his daughter what is right and wrong, brought her up perfectly and warned her of the dangers of sin. And if she would get into trouble He'd risk His own life and spare no cost to save her? Isn't that a better father?

Now, did God not explain Himself clearly enough when He told us what we could and could not do?
Did God not warn us what would happen if we didn't do what He said?
Did God not send His only, perfect and righteous Son, to bear the curse of our transgression so that we may be saved?

Note the three points.
1. Law - He gave us the law.
2. Justice - He warned us about what would happen if we broke the law.
3. Salvation - He saved us.

Now, if God had only given us 1 & 2 it would have been perfectly just to cast us all into hell. He told us what He wanted, and He clearly said, if you don't do this, you WILL die. He did nothing wrong and justice would rightfully be served if we were all thrown in hell the very second we committed our first sin. The very second we decided in our hearts, "God doesn't want me to do this, but I SHALL DO IT ANYWAY". Not so?
If the law of a country states, "Armed robbery will carry a death penalty", it would be perfectly fine to execute a person guilty of armed robbery, right? Or shall we blame the bank for being rob-able in the first place and let the robber go free?

Point 3 is God's grace. God did not have to send His Son die to take our guilt on our behalf. He could have wiped us out and started a fresh new creation. But He so loves us, despite the fact that in our hearts we have so hated Him, that He came up with a way to pronounce us, "Not guilty". But the cost was that Jesus His only Son, would have to pay it for us.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
(Joh 3:16-18)

I often see unbelievers come here and say, "How can God throw people in hell for simply not believing in Jesus?". Hopefully you'll see how foolish that statement is. We don't go to hell because we don't believe in Jesus, we go to hell because God told us what He expects and we raised our middle finger at Him and did what we want to do, instead.
We are saved by grace, but it is the law that condemns us.

Cheers

Vim.

Bthings
Apr 12th 2008, 01:05 PM
It's more a problem of semantics. In other words you're asking is, "Why can't we just have the desire not to disobey God instead of disobey God?' The second part then wouldn't make sense, we wouldn't have a choice.

I don't see it like that.
I'm saying is, Why can't we have a desire to do good and have free will?
Why is having a desire to sin the only way for us to have free will?


Because He's God and we're not? There's really not much more too it than that.

no, that doesn't make sense.
Are you saying that no matter we HAD to be created with a desire to sin, otherwise we would have no free will?


Once again you asked if God could make us like him in every way. No, not logically possible.

No, not like Him in everyway. Like Him in everyway EXCEPT that we got created and He didn't.
I know I keep asking but you just say 'no not possible', How is it not logically possible?
I don't see any reason why a being with infinity power can't create another being with infinity power.

Bthings
Apr 12th 2008, 01:06 PM
Hi BThings,

Think about what you're saying for a second. You're basically implying that God is the guilty party because He allows us to sin against Him? Isn't that exactly what you're saying? You're basically saying that God is guilty and should rightfully be punished for creating us the way He did, not so?

No, I'm not saying God is guilty for 'allowing us to sin against Him'. I'm saying He's guilty for creating us with the desire that we have to sin.
He really is telling us to go against our nature by telling us to obey Him.


God who is perfect and tolerates no sin, created us in His image, but created us not as stones or robots, but individuals. He has given us the freedom to choose good and evil and He has given us very clear instructions on what He wants and what the result of disobedience is. But just as lucifer loves himself, so we love ourselves and we choose to do what we feel is best for us, even if it means going against God's wishes, and because we have this capability, God is guilty? God should NOT have done this?

Neither us nor Satan would have ever disobeyed God if we didn't want to. And God created us with that want that we have to sin.


Do you see man's sinful self-righteousness at work even in your own words, BThings? We disobey God, but then we blame God for our disobedience.

God has given us relationships on earth so that we can have examples of our relationship with Him. Now picture this relationship between a father and his very beautiful daughter.

The father is very protective of her and thus, he doesn't want her to hang around with boys who might break her heart, so what does he do. He takes a razor-blade and slashes her face, so that she'll be so ugly that no boy would dare to look at her. He forces her to bath in pig manure so that she would smell, so that no boy would dare to come close to her. Then , just to make sure, he keeps her locked in his basement where no 'evil' will find her. Problem solved, right? Would you say these are the actions of a 'good' father?
Isn't this exactly what you expect from God?
You want God to FORCE us not to sin, to remove us from all possibility of sin and to create us, with no choice so that we never would sin? And if He doesn't you pronounce Him guilty of allowing us to sin?

What would the complaint of such a daughter be? She would say, "My father says he loves me, but look at how he distrusts me. How can he say that he loves me if he does this?".

Would it not be better if a father TAUGHT his daughter what is right and wrong, brought her up perfectly and warned her of the dangers of sin. And if she would get into trouble He'd risk His own life and spare no cost to save her? Isn't that a better father?

You talked as though sin is an enemy who's been around for forever.

Sin is just disobedience. And God created us with the desire to sin. Didn't He?


Now, did God not explain Himself clearly enough when He told us what we could and could not do?
Did God not warn us what would happen if we didn't do what He said?
Did God not send His only, perfect and righteous Son, to bear the curse of our transgression so that we may be saved?

Note the three points.
1. Law - He gave us the law.
2. Justice - He warned us about what would happen if we broke the law.
3. Salvation - He saved us.

Now, if God had only given us 1 & 2 it would have been perfectly just to cast us all into hell. He told us what He wanted, and He clearly said, if you don't do this, you WILL die. He did nothing wrong and justice would rightfully be served if we were all thrown in hell the very second we committed our first sin. The very second we decided in our hearts, "God doesn't want me to do this, but I SHALL DO IT ANYWAY". Not so?

"Now, if God had only given us 1 & 2 it would have been perfectly just to cast us all into hell."
No way, The way I see it, God HAS to save us, we deserve it. He created us with the desire to sin, so now no matter what we're going to sin.
God should not have created a race doomed to fail, and then attempt to punish them for failing, that's just not Just.


If the law of a country states, "Armed robbery will carry a death penalty", it would be perfectly fine to execute a person guilty of armed robbery, right? Or shall we blame the bank for being rob-able in the first place and let the robber go free?

Point 3 is God's grace. God did not have to send His Son die to take our guilt on our behalf. He could have wiped us out and started a fresh new creation. But He so loves us, despite the fact that in our hearts we have so hated Him, that He came up with a way to pronounce us, "Not guilty". But the cost was that Jesus His only Son, would have to pay it for us.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
(Joh 3:16-18)

I often see unbelievers come here and say, "How can God throw people in hell for simply not believing in Jesus?". Hopefully you'll see how foolish that statement is. We don't go to hell because we don't believe in Jesus, we go to hell because God told us what He expects and we raised our middle finger at Him and did what we want to do, instead.
We are saved by grace, but it is the law that condemns us.

Then why'd He put that Law there? He knows NO ONE can or could ever reach it.

It like, I tell my child to put this toy in my hand away, but then I hold the toy above the child's head just out of reach so he can't grab it. and THEN, I punish the kid for disobeying me.

We can't do anything but sin, it's in our nature. So God should lower the Law(which I know He would never do, 'cause He wants things perfect) or raise our nature(which would only require creating us without the desire to sin).

It just seems to me that God create us to need saving so that He could save us. If that's the case, then we do indeed deserve to be saved, right.

Athanasius
Apr 12th 2008, 02:45 PM
I don't see it like that.
I'm saying is, Why can't we have a desire to do good and have free will?
Why is having a desire to sin the only way for us to have free will?

Because of your words, we wouldn't 'want' to sin. Which, basically what you really means is that... We would do good all the time and wouldn't want to sin, therefore we would never sin. Well, I have a desire to do good, doesn't mean I'm always going to do good... and I have free will. And I still sin. With the language of your original post you would be removing free will. If you're revising what you said to include words like 'desire' and 'want' then we can work with those... if you really mean those words, because they aren't absolutes.



no, that doesn't make sense.
Are you saying that no matter we HAD to be created with a desire to sin, otherwise we would have no free will?

No, not at all. We're talking about your first post; could we have been created perfect like God with no desire to sin. Well, what you really said was, 'could we have been created perfect like God with no desire to disobey him'--no free will.



No, not like Him in everyway. Like Him in everyway EXCEPT that we got created and He didn't.
I know I keep asking but you just say 'no not possible', How is it not logically possible?
I don't see any reason why a being with infinity power can't create another being with infinity power.

First of all, the second being would not have 'infinity power' because it was created. God can't create a rock he can't lift, nor can he sin, nor can he lie, nor can he stop being God, nor can he create a being with equal power as he.

Son_kissed
Apr 12th 2008, 03:04 PM
We can't do anything but sin, it's in our nature. So God should lower the Law(which I know He would never do, 'cause He wants things perfect) or raise our nature(which would only require creating us without the desire to sin).


OR, He could offer Himself (God who, alone, is perfect and good), in the person of His Son, that through him, we can be perfected.

Bthings
Apr 12th 2008, 06:58 PM
OR, He could offer Himself (God who, alone, is perfect and good), in the person of His Son, that through him, we can be perfected.
Right. OR He could that. But beause of the way He created us with the desire to sin, we now deserve to be saved by God. He made it so we couldn't not need saving, and He made it so we can't save ourselves. And since it's not Just to create a race doomed to die, so we deserve His gift to save us. right?

Bthings
Apr 12th 2008, 07:47 PM
Because of your words, we wouldn't 'want' to sin. Which, basically what you really means is that... We would do good all the time and wouldn't want to sin, therefore we would never sin. Well, I have a desire to do good, doesn't mean I'm always going to do good... and I have free will. And I still sin. With the language of your original post you would be removing free will. If you're revising what you said to include words like 'desire' and 'want' then we can work with those... if you really mean those words, because they aren't absolutes.

hahah, I think I forgot where I was going with this so I started messing up my words and mixing my thoughts. sorry.



My origanal question was Why can't we be perfect like God with no desire to sin.
You said because that would be removing free will.
I said, no because God has no desire to sin and He still has free will.
You said, We are not God.

So basically, only God can be perfect and have free will. But no matter what, no other being can be created perfect and have free will, right?

But the part I don't get is, Why can no one be created perfect and have free will.
It goes against God's nature to sin, so He WILLNOT sin, He just can't do it. So if we were created with a nature to not sin, we would not do it, we couldn't do it. Now how would that be removing free will?



No, not at all. We're talking about your first post; could we have been created perfect like God with no desire to sin. Well, what you really said was, 'could we have been created perfect like God with no desire to disobey him'--no free will.

but that doesn't make sense.
It goes against God's nature to sin, so He WILLNOT sin, He just can't do it. So if we were created with a nature to not sin, we would not do it, we couldn't do it. Now how would that be removing free will?


First of all, the second being would not have 'infinity power' because it was created. God can't create a rock he can't lift, nor can he sin, nor can he lie, nor can he stop being God, nor can he create a being with equal power as he.c

But technically, He can create a being with equal infinity power, He just won't because it's not in His nature to, right?

Son_kissed
Apr 12th 2008, 08:01 PM
I suppose it depends on your perspective.

I'm reminded of a girl I saw a long time ago on some silly show or another. She had two children of her own, but was living at home with her mother. She lived there, and her mother cooked and cleaned for them all, as well as supporting them. She said that her mother was obligated to take care of her and her children because she had conceived and brought her into this world. "I didnt ask to be born," she said. Yet she would go out and party with her friends and have fun and enjoy her life.

She had one thing right. Her mother didn't have to give her life. We had the potential to exist, and God has given us life, but He didn't have to.

Life is a privelege. We're not perfect, but God has provided a way of Himself for us to be perfected and reconciled to Him, not because we deserved it, but because He loves us.

"...Jesus came that we might have life and have it more abundantly" (John 10:10).

Athanasius
Apr 12th 2008, 08:27 PM
but that doesn't make sense.
It goes against God's nature to sin, so He WILLNOT sin, He just can't do it. So if we were created with a nature to not sin, we would not do it, we couldn't do it. Now how would that be removing free will?

It's not that God doesn't sin because He doesn't want to. God doesn't sin because He is incapable of sinning, He can't sin. 'Sinning' is disobedience. If we were created without the capacity to sin (which is what you're saying), then our free will would have been removed because we would be unable to go against what God set forth.

I'm fairly sure Adam and Eve desired (originally) not to sin (disobey God). However, they still disobeyed God.



But technically, He can create a being with equal infinity power, He just won't because it's not in His nature to, right?

No, God can't create a being as powerful as Himself.

Bthings
Apr 12th 2008, 08:46 PM
I suppose it depends on your perspective.

I'm reminded of a girl I saw a long time ago on some silly show or another. She had two children of her own, but was living at home with her mother. She lived there, and her mother cooked and cleaned for them all, as well as supporting them. She said that her mother was obligated to take care of her and her children because she had conceived and brought her into this world. "I didnt ask to be born," she said. Yet she would go out and party with her friends and have fun and enjoy her life.

She had one thing right. Her mother didn't have to give her life. We had the potential to exist, and God has given us life, but He didn't have to.

Life is a privelege. We're not perfect, but God has provided a way of Himself for us to be perfected and reconciled to Him, not because we deserved it, but because He loves us.

"...Jesus came that we might have life and have it more abundantly" (John 10:10).
You can't compare a parent to their child as you can God to a human. because the huge difference is "giving birth to" and "creating".

IRL yes the daughter did deserve to be taken care of by her mother, but the daughter absued that gift for her mother by acting the way she did.

But you can't compare that to God. The mother didnot create the daughter to absue the gift like that, God did. God created us with the desire to sin, so now all we do is sin, no matter how hard we try we just cannot be perfect, that's the way God made it. We almost don't have a choice because no matter what we will sin at least once. It's like we're born with an OCD to sin.

Now, don't we deserve God's gift to save us? He created us with the OCD to sin.

Bthings
Apr 12th 2008, 09:36 PM
It's not that God doesn't sin because He doesn't want to. God doesn't sin because He is incapable of sinning, He can't sin. 'Sinning' is disobedience. If we were created without the capacity to sin (which is what you're saying), then our free will would have been removed because we would be unable to go against what God set forth.

oh, I see. if we were created incapable of disobeying God then we wouldn't have free will. So we can disobey God but God can't disobey God. that'd be an oxymoron, and impossible.

Thank you :), i understand now


I'm fairly sure Adam and Eve desired (originally) not to sin (disobey God). However, they still disobeyed God.

Okay, so now I'm wondering something similar but different.

Why do we have a nature to want to disobey God? Why can't we have a nature to want to obey God? (we still could disobey God, but it would be much much more rare to disobey)


No, God can't create a being as powerful as Himself.

I still don't understand why He can't. But i don't think I'm gonna understand, lol, so i better just leave it at this.

ImmenseDisciple
Apr 13th 2008, 04:24 PM
Maybe this will help clarify - the only thing God could create which would be as powerful as Himself would be, in fact, Himself - it would be God. But the thing is, God is uncreated. You cannot create the uncreated, so God cannot create God. He could certainly create something which was great, but it would have to fall well short of perfection. Everything He creates must fall, in effect, infinitely short of Him, simply by nature of the fact that it is not Him, and is finite.

If that makes it clearer I'll be amazed, frankly :lol:

It's a tricky issue to get your head around, but like Xel says - it's basically the same as the classic "rock too big" question, posed from a different angle - "Why can't God create the uncreatable?"

chisel
Apr 13th 2008, 06:02 PM
Neither us nor Satan would have ever disobeyed God if we didn't want to. And God created us with that want that we have to sin.

Nonsense, BThings!

What you're saying is absolutely not true. The Bible states that we were created in God's image. After creation God gazed upon it and said, "It is good". Why would God say 'it is good' directly after He created the human race with a build in rebellious and disobedient nature? God has never and will never consider evil to be good.

We got our sinful nature from Adam.

It's like this: Once a tiger or lion has eaten its first human being it has to be killed. The reason is because once they realise that we're easy prey, they won't go back to chasing deer through the woods. Once they've tasted human fleshm they won't turn back.
In the same way, the moment Adam sinned, him and all humans afterward were tainted. Once that purity is broken you can never be clean again, EXCEPT, through the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ.

Saying that we deserve to be saved is a VERY foolish statement, BThings, because Jesus did not have to die for us, because He was and is 100% pure. The filthy never deserves that the pure die in their place.

But even if you do believe that you deserve to be saved, why are you not on your knees asking God to save you and to grant you repentance?
Why don't you ask God to reveal your own heart to you, that is, if you want to see your own heart for what is really is?

Cheers

Vim.

Bthings
Apr 13th 2008, 06:40 PM
Nonsense, BThings!

What you're saying is absolutely not true. The Bible states that we were created in God's image. After creation God gazed upon it and said, "It is good". Why would God say 'it is good' directly after He created the human race with a build in rebellious and disobedient nature? God has never and will never consider evil to be good.

We got our sinful nature from Adam.

It's like this: Once a tiger or lion has eaten its first human being it has to be killed. The reason is because once they realize that we're easy prey, they won't go back to chasing deer through the woods. Once they've tasted human flesh, they won't turn back.
In the same way, the moment Adam sinned, him and all humans afterward were tainted. Once that purity is broken you can never be clean again, EXCEPT, through the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ.

right, we have a sinful nature. Adam had a sinful nature. How can our nature change?


Saying that we deserve to be saved is a VERY foolish statement, BThings, because Jesus did not have to die for us, because He was and is 100% pure.

Of course Jesus did not have to die for us. But it would have been very cruel on His part if He didn't. and since He created us knowing we were going to fall, it's only fair that He create a way we can be saved. He doesn't have to, but it's only fair if He does, so He should.


The filthy never deserves that the pure die in their place.

Why are we filth? Why is disobeying God so bad that we get called filth for it? I really don't see what's so bad about disobeying God.



But even if you do believe that you deserve to be saved, why are you not on your knees asking God to save you and to grant you repentance?
Why don't you ask God to reveal your own heart to you, that is, if you want to see your own heart for what is really is?

Because, if I ask for forgiveness then I'm admitting that I'm guilty of something, which I don't want to think I am.

chisel
Apr 13th 2008, 08:01 PM
Because, if I ask for forgiveness then I'm admitting that I'm guilty of something, which I don't want to think I am.

Well, BThings, if that is the case, then maybe you're right. Christianity is about sinners getting justified. God has given Himself the title of, "He who justifies the ungodly". If you're good, then your own goodness will justify you in the day of judgement.

As for me, I have seen my wicked heart and I continue to see it. I have done so many things that I will never mention to anybody. I have thought things that I'll never mention. If you go through the ten commandment there isn't a single one that I haven't broken.
God has shown me my heart, and I am ashamed, but I have taken all that to the cross, and the joy lies herein: That Jesus who lived a pure live, has given that life for me, so that when I come before God, He doesn't see the sinful wicked man that I am, but He sees his Son. All my evil was added to Jesus' account that day on the cross, and all Jesus' goodness has been added to mine. I don't have any goodness to rely on, and if it wasn't for Jesus, God would be perfectly fair to throw me in hell with the worst, because that is where I belong.

But you, maybe you don't need Jesus then. There were many in the Bible who believed themselves pure and saw no need for His grace, but the worst, many of those accepted Him. The prostitutes, the tax collectors, the soldiers and the lowly fishermen. Jesus was called the friend of sinners, and it does seem to be the case even in our time. I am not saved because I am good, but because I know that I am nothing without Christ.

And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
(Rom 4:5)

God bless

Vim.

Bthings
Apr 13th 2008, 08:22 PM
Well, BThings, if that is the case, then maybe you're right. Christianity is about sinners getting justified. God has given Himself the title of, "He who justifies the ungodly". If you're good, then your own goodness will justify you in the day of judgement.

Well it depends on the definition of "good". As a human, and to my own standards I am good. But according to God's standards I'm not good.

Why is God's standards all that matter? According to my standards God isn't good.


But you, maybe you don't need Jesus then.

Well I do need Jesus if I want to avoid hell. I just don't want Him, but I'm going to have to have Him if I don't want to be in hell.


I am not saved because I am good, but because I know that I am nothing without Christ.

What do you mean 'nothing'? Without Jesus, you'd still be a human who tries to do good, right?


I don't have any goodness to rely on, and if it wasn't for Jesus, God would be perfectly fair to throw me in hell with the worst, because that is where I belong. Why do you think so? You know you couldn't stop sinning no matter how hard you tried. If sinning's not something you can stop doing it doesn't really seem like a choice to me.

chisel
Apr 13th 2008, 08:52 PM
Well it depends on the definition of "good". As a human, and to my own standards I am good. But according to God's standards I'm not good.

Why is God's standards all that matter? According to my standards God isn't good.

God's standards are all that matter because frankly, God is all that matters. He created EVERYTHING. Think about it. Earth, sky, tree, flower, bird, beast, sunrise, sunset, molecule, galaxy, you and me. We exists simply, because God said, "Let there be".

Yes, in our own minds we certainly are very important, but that's just how we are, but yet time puts even the greatest people in their place. Do you fear Alexander the Great? He had conquered so much that he fell into a deep depression when there was nothing left to conquer. Do you think about Alexander the Great much these days? You don't, he's just some historical guy, right? But in his mind, he was very important.

That's how we are, but after all the stars, all the geniusses and the conquerors and the successful and the famous and the great people of our time have passed away, God will still be there. Christ had conquered death. You reckon his opinion is not as important as yours?



Well I do need Jesus if I want to avoid hell. I just don't want Him, but I'm going to have to have Him if I don't want to be in hell.

Oh no, if you're only interested in Jesus because you don't want to go to hell, that doesn't make any difference. Everybody wants to go to heaven, they just don't want God to be there when they get there.

See, you can set fire to a field and all the snakes in that field will run away from the fire, but even though they've excaped the fire, they are still snakes. That's what John the Baptist meant when he called the pharisees a bunch of snakes, you know.
They heard the Messiah was coming so they quickly ran to get baptised so they get their ticket into heaven. But their hearts were as wicked as always.

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.
(Mat 3:7-8)



What do you mean 'nothing'? Without Jesus, you'd still be a human who tries to do good, right?

The Bible says our socalled 'good works' are as filthy rags to God. I agree, because I know that my good works were simply to justify my actions. The same reason so many famous people give to charity. It's to silence their conscience.

You wanna see good works, look at the life of mother Theresa, and even she still relied on God's grace.



Why do you think so? You know you couldn't stop sinning no matter how hard you tried. If sinning's not something you can stop doing it doesn't really seem like a choice to me.
Ya think?

And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God. (Ezekeil 11:19-20)

Even heard of Stephen Moran? He was a serial murderer/rapist. Got saved, and became a new person in Christ. His nature was completely changed, and that's exactly what Christ offers.
Try and get hold of the movie 'Faith like potatoes'. It's about a guy called Angus Buchan, a real monster of a person. Got saved, and his life changed. He is now running 'Shalom ministries' feeding and clothing the poor, and preaching the Gospel.

Same things happened to the guys in the Bible. Read the letters in the Bible that John wrote. First thing that'll come to your mind is, "What a loving caring and wise person". Do you know what Jesus' nickname for him and his brother was before they got saved? He called them 'Sons of thunder', because they were wild and rough and pretty mean too. Wanted Jesus to summon fire and kill a whole bunch of people. Same guy whom Jesus later called, "John the beloved"

Then look at Paul. Probably one of the most rabid persecutors of Christians ever. He completely changed and became..well Paul.

Oh don't think that God hasn't got the power to change a person. What would the point of forgiveness be, if you were still just as evil as before.
As Spurgeon put it: What good would it serve if a great ruler forgave the rebels rioting in the streets but then let them continue to riot?
It would make a mockery of mercy if that was the case, don't you think? In fact, it'll incite even worse things. If you have alot of debt and somebody feels in their heart that they want to clear your debt, but don't help you to stop making debt. That'll just be an incentive to spend even more.

God isn't like that. If He saves you, He does it properly, and He finishes what He starts.

That is what BORN AGAIN means. You are effectively a brand new person with a Godly nature, because the Spirit of God lives in you.

redeemedbyhim
Apr 14th 2008, 04:21 AM
God's standards are all that matter because frankly, God is all that matters. He created EVERYTHING. Think about it. Earth, sky, tree, flower, bird, beast, sunrise, sunset, molecule, galaxy, you and me. We exists simply, because God said, "Let there be".

Yes, in our own minds we certainly are very important, but that's just how we are, but yet time puts even the greatest people in their place. Do you fear Alexander the Great? He had conquered so much that he fell into a deep depression when there was nothing left to conquer. Do you think about Alexander the Great much these days? You don't, he's just some historical guy, right? But in his mind, he was very important.

That's how we are, but after all the stars, all the geniusses and the conquerors and the successful and the famous and the great people of our time have passed away, God will still be there. Christ had conquered death. You reckon his opinion is not as important as yours?


Oh no, if you're only interested in Jesus because you don't want to go to hell, that doesn't make any difference. Everybody wants to go to heaven, they just don't want God to be there when they get there.

See, you can set fire to a field and all the snakes in that field will run away from the fire, but even though they've excaped the fire, they are still snakes. That's what John the Baptist meant when he called the pharisees a bunch of snakes, you know.
They heard the Messiah was coming so they quickly ran to get baptised so they get their ticket into heaven. But their hearts were as wicked as always.

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.
(Mat 3:7-8)


The Bible says our socalled 'good works' are as filthy rags to God. I agree, because I know that my good works were simply to justify my actions. The same reason so many famous people give to charity. It's to silence their conscience.

You wanna see good works, look at the life of mother Theresa, and even she still relied on God's grace.


Ya think?

And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God. (Ezekeil 11:19-20)

Even heard of Stephen Moran? He was a serial murderer/rapist. Got saved, and became a new person in Christ. His nature was completely changed, and that's exactly what Christ offers.
Try and get hold of the movie 'Faith like potatoes'. It's about a guy called Angus Buchan, a real monster of a person. Got saved, and his life changed. He is now running 'Shalom ministries' feeding and clothing the poor, and preaching the Gospel.

Same things happened to the guys in the Bible. Read the letters in the Bible that John wrote. First thing that'll come to your mind is, "What a loving caring and wise person". Do you know what Jesus' nickname for him and his brother was before they got saved? He called them 'Sons of thunder', because they were wild and rough and pretty mean too. Wanted Jesus to summon fire and kill a whole bunch of people. Same guy whom Jesus later called, "John the beloved"

Then look at Paul. Probably one of the most rabid persecutors of Christians ever. He completely changed and became..well Paul.

Oh don't think that God hasn't got the power to change a person. What would the point of forgiveness be, if you were still just as evil as before.
As Spurgeon put it: What good would it serve if a great ruler forgave the rebels rioting in the streets but then let them continue to riot?
It would make a mockery of mercy if that was the case, don't you think? In fact, it'll incite even worse things. If you have alot of debt and somebody feels in their heart that they want to clear your debt, but don't help you to stop making debt. That'll just be an incentive to spend even more.

God isn't like that. If He saves you, He does it properly, and He finishes what He starts.

That is what BORN AGAIN means. You are effectively a brand new person with a Godly nature, because the Spirit of God lives in you.

Wow! That was powerful, Vim.
A better case couldn't be made. I'm sure Bthings has much to digest and others who are searching with such an honest heart, (allbetit, a little disturbing from a Christian perspective) and will have to decide one way or the other. Like each of us had to, but you've given such a powerful answer that I don't know how they could choose anything other than Christ.
Thanks! :)

Bthings
Apr 14th 2008, 04:33 AM
God's standards are all that matter because frankly, God is all that matters. He created EVERYTHING. Think about it. Earth, sky, tree, flower, bird, beast, sunrise, sunset, molecule, galaxy, you and me. We exists simply, because God said, "Let there be".

Just because God created everything and is all powerful doesn't mean that He's a good, Just person. And if He's not good and Just, then His opinion shouldn't be what's important, right.
See, that's my hardest part about liking God, I don't see Him as good, and if I don't see Him as good, then the rest or Christianity doesn't mean anything.


Oh no, if you're only interested in Jesus because you don't want to go to hell, that doesn't make any difference. Everybody wants to go to heaven, they just don't want God to be there when they get there.

True, if I go to heaven I don't want God to be there. But I don't really care about going to heaven, I just don't want to go to hell. BUT if I could have it totally my way, I would choose to have never been born.


The Bible says our socalled 'good works' are as filthy rags to God. I agree, because I know that my good works were simply to justify my actions. The same reason so many famous people give to charity. It's to silence their conscience.

You wanna see good works, look at the life of mother Theresa, and even she still relied on God's grace.

So is it impossible to not be totally selfish without God?


God isn't like that. If He saves you, He does it properly, and He finishes what He starts.

That is what BORN AGAIN means. You are effectively a brand new person with a Godly nature, because the Spirit of God lives in you.

Why couldn't we have been created with a Godly nature all along?

Athanasius
Apr 14th 2008, 04:35 AM
Okay, so now I'm wondering something similar but different.

Why do we have a nature to want to disobey God? Why can't we have a nature to want to obey God? (we still could disobey God, but it would be much much more rare to disobey)

Well I do want to obey God, but for some reason I find myself doing things contrary to what God wants me to do. This is what sin is.



I still don't understand why He can't. But i don't think I'm gonna understand, lol, so i better just leave it at this.

Well it's like the examples I used before. God can't create a four sided triangle, a square circle, a married bachelor, cold fire, etc. Now linguistically those words don't make sense, but you get the idea. These are abstract examples of things God can't do. God also can't lie or sin or be 'unbecome' God. God can't create something as powerful as Himself or else He wouldn't be God.

Athanasius
Apr 14th 2008, 05:06 AM
Just because God created everything and is all powerful doesn't mean that He's a good, Just person. And if He's not good and Just, then His opinion shouldn't be what's important, right.
See, that's my hardest part about liking God, I don't see Him as good, and if I don't see Him as good, then the rest or Christianity doesn't mean anything.

You cannot display the emotion, choice and action known as love by yourself. You need at least two people to do so. With God we have the Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Between those three, the Triune nature of God, we see love displayed. Otherwise, God is simply amoral and you wouldn't be the wiser as to whether or not God was love, hate, jealous, etc.

chisel
Apr 14th 2008, 05:48 AM
Just because God created everything and is all powerful doesn't mean that He's a good, Just person. And if He's not good and Just, then His opinion shouldn't be what's important, right.
See, that's my hardest part about liking God, I don't see Him as good, and if I don't see Him as good, then the rest or Christianity doesn't mean anything.

Ever try telling God how you feel? Seriously, get on your bike, motorbike or car, or put on your most comfortable shoes, walk to a quiet place and take it up with Him. Shake your fist at the sky and call Him down, and tell Him exactly how bad He is...and if your convictions are this strong, you'll wait there for as long as it takes, right?

You do that, BThings. Take it up with God, because you're clearly not getting anywhere with us. Skip the servants, the house-keepers and the butlers and go straight to the LORD, and tell Him how bad He is. Deal?



True, if I go to heaven I don't want God to be there. But I don't really care about going to heaven, I just don't want to go to hell. BUT if I could have it totally my way, I would choose to have never been born.

Be sure to tell God this as well. Tell Him that you feel He doesn't belong in Heaven (although He created it). Tell Him, that you'd rather cease to exist than acknowledge Him, and tell Him why you feel that way.



So is it impossible to not be totally selfish without God?

Without God, nobody would exist to be selfish. The Bible says God makes His sun shine on the believer and the unbeliever. If you hate God, you do so by the power of God. If you serve only yourself you do so by the power of God. If you shake your fist at the sky, you can do so because God gave you that hand and those fingers, that you can curl up into a fist and shake it at Him.


Why couldn't we have been created with a Godly nature all along?
Adam and Eve were created with a Godly nature, and still they rebelled against Him, because they wanted to be greater. They wanted to be like God. That is how lucifer tempted Eve, by offering power. He offered Jesus power as well when He tempted Him in the desert.
Lucifer himself was created as an angel of light, but because of the glory that God bestowed on him, he became proud. He thought Himself greater than God and said to Himself, "I shall ascend to the throne of God...".

If you were in Adam and Eve's position you would have done exactly the same as they did. You blame God for your sins, and so did they. Adam said to God, "It's your fault because YOU gave me this woman, who gave me the fruit." and Eve also blamed God saying, "It was the serpent who beguiled me. It's YOUR fault, God, because YOU let the serpent live."

Exactly the same argument that you've been using, not true?

So, take it up with God. Tell Him exactly what a poor job He's been doing. Let us know how it went, and if nothing happens, go back the next day. Even if it takes a year, you make sure that you get your audience with the King of Kings. Put your weight behind your feelings and don't give up until you meet with God.

Cheers

Vim.

Bthings
Apr 14th 2008, 06:50 AM
Well I do want to obey God, but for some reason I find myself doing things contrary to what God wants me to do. This is what sin is. so sin forces you to disobey God. I thought disobeying God is sin, that they are the same thing.

You cannot display the emotion, choice and action known as love by yourself. You need at least two people to do so. With God we have the Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Between those three, the Triune nature of God, we see love displayed. Otherwise, God is simply amoral and you wouldn't be the wiser as to whether or not God was love, hate, jealous, etc.
sorry, I don't really understand what you said here. lol, please Could you elaborate?

Bthings
Apr 14th 2008, 06:51 AM
Ever try telling God how you feel? Seriously, get on your bike, motorbike or car, or put on your most comfortable shoes, walk to a quiet place and take it up with Him. Shake your fist at the sky and call Him down, and tell Him exactly how bad He is...and if your convictions are this strong, you'll wait there for as long as it takes, right?

You do that, BThings. Take it up with God, because you're clearly not getting anywhere with us. Skip the servants, the house-keepers and the butlers and go straight to the LORD, and tell Him how bad He is. Deal?


Be sure to tell God this as well. Tell Him that you feel He doesn't belong in Heaven (although He created it). Tell Him, that you'd rather cease to exist than acknowledge Him, and tell Him why you feel that way.



So, take it up with God. Tell Him exactly what a poor job He's been doing. Let us know how it went, and if nothing happens, go back the next day. Even if it takes a year, you make sure that you get your audience with the King of Kings. Put your weight behind your feelings and don't give up until you meet with God.

Are you kidding?! I could never do that. I don't want to make Him mad.

I don't like God, I wonder what it would take for me to like Him. I wonder, if I wanted to ignore my reasons to not like Him and ask Him to make me like Him, if it would work like that. But I'm also not sure that I want to like God, because I don't want to just dumbly follow Him and ignore the reasons I have to not follow Him.
But I really don't want to go to hell.

Seriously, what do you think I should do?


Adam and Eve were created with a Godly nature, and still they rebelled against Him, because they wanted to be greater.

So then after you get "born again" into a Godly nature, why won't you just go back to the way you were before? I mean Adam and Eve had a Godly nature, and they changed.


They wanted to be like God. That is how lucifer tempted Eve, by offering power. He offered Jesus power as well when He tempted Him in the desert.
Lucifer himself was created as an angel of light, but because of the glory that God bestowed on him, he became proud. He thought Himself greater than God and said to Himself, "I shall ascend to the throne of God...".

If you were in Adam and Eve's position you would have done exactly the same as they did. You blame God for your sins, and so did they. Adam said to God, "It's your fault because YOU gave me this woman, who gave me the fruit." and Eve also blamed God saying, "It was the serpent who beguiled me. It's YOUR fault, God, because YOU let the serpent live."

Exactly the same argument that you've been using, not true?
I suppose that is true.

But, How can I not blame God? I just don't see things as not His fault, that's why I come here, I need to see it differently, but in a way where it still makes sense to me.

Athanasius
Apr 14th 2008, 06:56 AM
so sin forces you to disobey God. I thought disobeying God is sin, that they are the same thing.

No, sin doesn't force me to disobey God. I disobey God as a result of my sinful (disobedient), fallen nature, even though I desire not to.



sorry, I don't really understand what you said here. lol, please Could you elaborate?

It answers your concerns as to God's goodness.

Bthings
Apr 14th 2008, 07:11 AM
No, sin doesn't force me to disobey God. I disobey God as a result of my sinful (disobedient), fallen nature, even though I desire not to.

How'd you get that fallen nature?


It answers your concerns as to God's goodness.

yeah, but, How do I see God's goodness?

Athanasius
Apr 14th 2008, 12:57 PM
How'd you get that fallen nature?

yeah, but, How do I see God's goodness?

1) How did everyone 'get that fallen nature'? Genesis 3.
2) You could always start by reading the Gospels. Take a good, honest, read of the Gospels.

redeemedbyhim
Apr 14th 2008, 03:00 PM
Are you kidding?! I could never do that. I don't want to make Him mad.

First of all, He all ready knows exactly how you feel, He all ready knows you've said you don't "like" Him. He's not going to be shocked to hear it directly from you and He's not mad now, so He's not going to be mad if you take your honest queries to Him directly. You fear God, but you have the wrong type of fear.


I don't like God, I wonder what it would take for me to like Him. I wonder, if I wanted to ignore my reasons to not like Him and ask Him to make me like Him, if it would work like that. But I'm also not sure that I want to like God, because I don't want to just dumbly follow Him and ignore the reasons I have to not follow Him.
But I really don't want to go to hell.

You've created for yourself quite the dilema. But, it's a dilema that's entierly made up in your own mind.
And you're being entirely unfair. You've never given Him a chance to prove His devotion to you or His unending love.
It might be interesting for you to know, He doesn't want you to "dumbly" follow Him, He wants you to be informed and knowledgeable about His will and ways.


Seriously, what do you think I should do?

That's an unanswerable question based on your refusal to take to heart what has all ready been said by Vim and Xel.
You don't want to go to hell, but you're unwilling to take the simple step of faith and trust or even entertain the idea that He just may be good. That's like saying I don't want to have a heart attack but I refuse to exercise and live a healthy lifestyle.
Good luck with that one.

chisel
Apr 14th 2008, 03:18 PM
Are you kidding?! I could never do that. I don't want to make Him mad.

Do you think talking badly about Him 'behind His back' is less likely to make Him mad? God already knows how you feel and He knows your heart. The Bible says that He's counted the hairs on your head, you can't hide anything from Him.



I don't like God, I wonder what it would take for me to like Him. I wonder, if I wanted to ignore my reasons to not like Him and ask Him to make me like Him, if it would work like that.

But I'm also not sure that I want to like God, because I don't want to just dumbly follow Him and ignore the reasons I have to not follow Him.

But I really don't want to go to hell.

Seriously, what do you think I should do?

No, we cannot like God. The Bible says that we were saved while we are saved while still enemies of God (Rom 5:10). You cannot force yourself to like God, it is useless and God doesn't expect that from you, in fact He sees right through it.

Let me give you a parable that I've read in a book by Charles Spurgeon. A great artist visited a city a few centuries ago, and we was asked by the mayor of the city to paint some images of the city. The artist noticed a street sweeper and decided that he would make an appropriate subject for one of the paintings since street sweepers are synonymous with the city. He asked the street sweeper to come to his house the next day so that he could pose for a painting and the artist offered a generous sum of money for this.

The next day the street sweeper arrived at the artist's house, but he had washed himself, combed his hair and put on his Sunday suit. Naturally the artist sent the man away empty handed, because he was of no use to him anymore.

Do you get the picture? Don't try and dress yourself up for God. Don't try and force yourself to like Him. It's all fake anyway, you DON'T like Him and you CANNOT like Him. Just come as you are to the cross and behold Jesus who died for you. Talk to God, tell Him that you do not understand Him and that you do not like Him. Tell Him that you don't want to go to hell, but you also don't want to be false. Just pour out your heart. Be honest! And ask Him to save you, and to give you repentance.
You cannot repent on our own and you're not capable of liking God either. But you keep on calling on Him until He answers. Until He gives you salvation.



So then after you get "born again" into a Godly nature, why won't you just go back to the way you were before? I mean Adam and Eve had a Godly nature, and they changed.

I'm not entirely sure, but I do believe that the saying, "You don't appreciate something until you've lost it applies".

See, a person might venture into danger even though they know it's dangerous. But once a person had experienced danger and been saved from that danger, they won't go back to it. A Christian's faith in God is not theoretical or academic, it is based on experience and experience is pure gold.

Look at how Peter phrases it:
In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith--more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire--may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
(1Pe 1:6-7)

Tested faith is proven genuine and doesn't perish. Does that make sense?

God bless

Vim.

Gulah Papyrus
Apr 15th 2008, 12:04 AM
How'd you get that fallen nature?



yeah, but, How do I see God's goodness?

look for it...if you look for it, you'll find it.

Bthings
Apr 15th 2008, 03:20 PM
Do you think talking badly about Him 'behind His back' is less likely to make Him mad? God already knows how you feel and He knows your heart. The Bible says that He's counted the hairs on your head, you can't hide anything from Him.


No, we cannot like God. The Bible says that we were saved while we are saved while still enemies of God (Rom 5:10). You cannot force yourself to like God, it is useless and God doesn't expect that from you, in fact He sees right through it.
...
Do you get the picture? Don't try and dress yourself up for God. Don't try and force yourself to like Him. It's all fake anyway, you DON'T like Him and you CANNOT like Him. Just come as you are to the cross and behold Jesus who died for you. Talk to God, tell Him that you do not understand Him and that you do not like Him. Tell Him that you don't want to go to hell, but you also don't want to be false. Just pour out your heart. Be honest! And ask Him to save you, and to give you repentance.
You cannot repent on our own and you're not capable of liking God either. But you keep on calling on Him until He answers. Until He gives you salvation.

Alright. I did, I told Him about the things I don't like about Him and what He doesn't do that I think He should. But I also told Him that I still wanted Him to saved me. Then I hated myself for saying that, I felt like such a brat. I practically said "I hate you, btw save my life". And I thought, if He's really going to save my life, if He's going to save people's lives, then He is good.

And I thought, even though I don't know why He does things the way He does, I still kinda think He's probablly right about doing it the way He does. Like, if He saves people, then He's good, and if He's good He's gotta be right. And I wonder, if I had all the knowledge, then it would probably make sense why God does these things.


I'm not entirely sure, but I do believe that the saying, "You don't appreciate something until you've lost it applies".

See, a person might venture into danger even though they know it's dangerous. But once a person had experienced danger and been saved from that danger, they won't go back to it. A Christian's faith in God is not theoretical or academic, it is based on experience and experience is pure gold.

Look at how Peter phrases it:
In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith--more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire--may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
(1Pe 1:6-7)

Tested faith is proven genuine and doesn't perish. Does that make sense?

yeah, It makes sense like that. it's like if you tell someone not to put their hand on a burner, they'll still want to do it anyways. BUT if they touch the burner, they will know, and they won't want to do it again.

Bthings
Apr 15th 2008, 03:22 PM
Unfortunately, I'm leaving somewhere tomorrow afternoon and I won't be back until the beginning of next month. So I won't be able to reply during that time. But I'll still like forward to replying to any responses when I get back.

RoadWarrior
Apr 15th 2008, 03:35 PM
Unfortunately, I'm leaving somewhere tomorrow afternoon and I won't be back until the beginning of next month. So I won't be able to reply during that time. But I'll still like forward to replying to any responses when I get back.

We shall look forward to your return, Bthings. I have been thinking of you a lot. It seems to me that your biggest obstacle is a fear that God might not be good. But your post before this one sounds like you are coming to grips with that. It is a process, it is a journey.

While you are away, you will be in our prayers for safety, and for your own personal growth in understanding a little bit more about God. Keep talking to Him about your feelings and thoughts.

redeemedbyhim
Apr 15th 2008, 04:15 PM
Alright. I did, I told Him about the things I don't like about Him and what He doesn't do that I think He should. But I also told Him that I still wanted Him to saved me. Then I hated myself for saying that, I felt like such a brat. I practically said "I hate you, btw save my life". And I thought, if He's really going to save my life, if He's going to save people's lives, then He is good.

And I thought, even though I don't know why He does things the way He does, I still kinda think He's probablly right about doing it the way He does. Like, if He saves people, then He's good, and if He's good He's gotta be right. And I wonder, if I had all the knowledge, then it would probably make sense why God does these things.

yeah, It makes sense like that. it's like if you tell someone not to put their hand on a burner, they'll still want to do it anyways. BUT if they touch the burner, they will know, and they won't want to do it again.

Good for you, Bthings! :hug:

God appreciates honesty. It took courage to face God from your persceptive.
Take care while you're gone and keep seeking Him, He loves you and has only your best in mind, always.

chisel
Apr 15th 2008, 04:31 PM
Unfortunately, I'm leaving somewhere tomorrow afternoon and I won't be back until the beginning of next month. So I won't be able to reply during that time. But I'll still like forward to replying to any responses when I get back.

It is good that you spoke to God. Keep talking to Him and keep your eyes fixed on Him and He won't let you stumble.

I want to share this Hymn by Charles Wesley with you. It always touches my heart when I read it. I hope that it will light up your way.

Depth of mercy! Can there be
Mercy still reserved for me?
Can my God His wrath forbear,
Me, the chief of sinners, spare?

I have long withstood His grace,
Long provoked Him to His face,
Would not hearken to His calls,
Grieved Him by a thousand falls.

I have spilt His precious blood,
Trampled on the Son of God,
Filled with pangs unspeakable,
I, who yet am not in hell!

I my Master have denied,
I afresh have crucified,
And profaned His hallowed Name,
Put Him to an open shame.

Whence to me this waste of love?
Ask my Advocate above!
See the cause in Jesus’ face,
Now before the throne of grace.

Jesus, answer from above,
Is not all Thy nature love?
Wilt Thou not the wrong forget,
Permit me to kiss Thy feet?

If I rightly read Thy heart,
If Thou all compassion art,
Bow Thine ear, in mercy bow,
Pardon and accept me now.

Jesus speaks, and pleads His blood!
He disarms the wrath of God;
Now my Father’s mercies move,
Justice lingers into love.

Kindled His relentings are,
Me He now delights to spare,
Cries, “How shall I give thee up?”
Lets the lifted thunder drop.

Lo! I still walk on the ground:
Lo! an Advocate is found:
“Hasten not to cut Him down,
Let this barren soul alone.”

There for me the Savior stands,
Shows His wounds and spreads His hands.
God is love! I know, I feel;
Jesus weeps and loves me still.

Pity from Thine eye let fall,
By a look my soul recall;
Now the stone to flesh convert,
Cast a look, and break my heart.

Now incline me to repent,
Let me now my sins lament,
Now my foul revolt deplore,
Weep, believe, and sin no more.

Saved7
Apr 15th 2008, 11:56 PM
Alright. I did, I told Him about the things I don't like about Him and what He doesn't do that I think He should. But I also told Him that I still wanted Him to saved me. Then I hated myself for saying that, I felt like such a brat. I practically said "I hate you, btw save my life". And I thought, if He's really going to save my life, if He's going to save people's lives, then He is good.

And I thought, even though I don't know why He does things the way He does, I still kinda think He's probablly right about doing it the way He does. Like, if He saves people, then He's good, and if He's good He's gotta be right. And I wonder, if I had all the knowledge, then it would probably make sense why God does these things.



.


Looks like you finally got it.:)

The bible says that it is God's "goodness" that brings us to repentance, and it also says that while we were STILL SINNER'S Christ DIED FOR US...in other words, even though we were still his enemies (alot like your attitude toward Him) He CHOSE to give Himself FOR us (His very enemies):saint:
That about sums up what you just stated above.:)