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jeffweeder
Apr 12th 2008, 02:32 AM
Rapture = being caaught away to be with him.

Jesus ------------I will come and recieve you to myself
, I shall raise you the last day,
--Behold I have told you everything in advance
--After the Trib of those days, I will come-
-look up for your redemption draweth nigh.



And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.


Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption

Whats all this got to do with the rapture you say?

Everything

We are taught by Paul (according to the word of the Lord) that no-one will be raptured and precede to the lord, until the dead in Christ are ressurected..
and
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, but we wont all sleep,but we will all be changed Immortal , in the twinkling of an eye--at the last trumpet.


This puts the ressurection and the rapture after the trib, at his coming.



"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
28 (javascript:VClk('Lk 21:28')) "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."




Lets examine when this ressurection occurs, so we can know the timing of the rapture.

Heaven and earth pass away then ressurection?



JOB 14

But man dies and lies prostrate.
Man expires, and where is he?
11 "As water evaporates from the sea,
And a river becomes parched and dried up,

12 So man lies down and does not rise.
Until the heavens are no longer, :hmm:

He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.
13 "Oh that You would hide me in Sheol,
That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You,
That You would set a limit for me and remember me!
14 "If a man dies, will he live again?
All the days of my struggle I will wait
Until my change comes. :hmm:


35 (javascript:VClk('Mt 24:35')) "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 (javascript:VClk('Mt 24:36')) "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
37 (javascript:VClk('Mt 24:37')) "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah




Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 (javascript:VClk('2Pe 3:12')) looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13 (javascript:VClk('2Pe 3:13')) But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.



"If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
4 (javascript:VClk('Jn 14:4')) "And you know the way where I am going."




Enjoy the fireworks

Roelof
Apr 12th 2008, 10:55 AM
and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come.
(1Th 1:10) [Rapture before the Tribulation]


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

ShirleyFord
Apr 12th 2008, 11:36 AM
1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

"to wait for his Son from heaven", a future event

"he raised from the dead, even Jesus", a past event

"which delivered us from", a past event

"the wrath to come", a future event

Paul is writing to Gentile Christians in Thessalonica who had been saved under his and his co-laborers's ministry. And he tells them in v. 9:

1 Thess 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

Paul is saying that these Gentile Christians have turned from idols to do these 2 things:

1. to serve the living and true God (v. 9)

2. to wait for his Son from heaven (v. 10)

"which delivered us from the wrath to come" cannot be speaking about a future rapture of the Church.

How and when did Paul say that "us" all Christians, were delivered from the wrath to come?

At the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

"his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." (v. 10)

Our future hope is Jesus. We all wait for Him to come again from heaven and receive us bodily to Himself.

Shirley

Ta-An
Apr 12th 2008, 12:30 PM
If you believe in pre=trip..... Are you ready?? :hmm:

jeffweeder
Apr 12th 2008, 12:51 PM
and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come.
(1Th 1:10) [Rapture before the Tribulation]

Hi Roelof

Im just trying to point out that the rapture cannot happen, until the ressurection .
And the ressurection will not happen until the heavens begin to desintregrate.This has to be after all the tribulation that will happen.

The sun will not shine ,the moon is abashed, stars are falling. ----Then look up, for the ressurection draweth nigh.....and your rapture to the the Lords presence.

Its a consistant theme throughout the NT, about the heavens and the earth being no-more.

This is surely the place that the Lord has prepared for us...The new heaven and the new earth....the home of righteousness....The fathers house, where Jesus is now. -Jn 14

vinsight4u8
Apr 12th 2008, 12:54 PM
Delivered from -the wrath.

Don't slide the word - "all" in it.

Ta-An
Apr 12th 2008, 01:02 PM
Delivered from -the wrath.

Don't slide the word - "all" in it."all" ..... what are you referring to??

vinsight4u8
Apr 12th 2008, 01:16 PM
"all" ..... what are you referring to??

People seem to look at 1 Thess. 1:10 as if the word "all" was in front of "the wrath" part in it.

They see this...
"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, {even} Jesus , which delivered us from the wrath to come."

People latch on and run with - There it is, see the church is not appointed to wrath.
Oops - but what the church is not appointed to is actually any wrath that comes before what is told in 5:9.
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

So the church is to be on the planet until Jesus Christ comes for her at the time of salvation. If the time of salvation comes after the great tribulation, then the church must endure it.

So what we need to do is - go searching for just what happens before the salvation point.

Rev. 12:10-11 shows me that salvation is after the time of those that love not their lives unto the death.
The accuser of the brethren is cast down to the earth and begins soon to slay the very people that he was accusing before God.

Rev. 19 reveals that the great whorre city is avenged that kills the saints and then comes salvation.

Rev. 7:10 shows those that come out of great tribulation get their white robes and then is salvation.

Hebrews 9:28
"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many, and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

After the salvation moment at His return will later begin the vials of His wrath that the church people are not appointed to.

ShirleyFord
Apr 12th 2008, 03:42 PM
and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come.
(1Th 1:10) [Rapture before the Tribulation]


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 says nothing about a pretrib rapture, as I showed in post #3 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1603539&postcount=3) .

The tribulation before the Second Coming of Christ is not God's wrath but Satan's final wrath poured out on the true Church.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the rapture/resurrection of the Church when the Lord at His Coming again puts an end to Satan's wrath once and for all against His Church by rescuing His Church and destroyed Satan and all those who reject Christ to follow him in the eternal lake of fire.

You need to read vs. 15 and 16 along with v. 17 of 1 Thessalonians 4.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


You believe that v. 17 is a pre-trib rapture verse.

But Paul makes it clear that he is referring to the Second Coming of Christ:

"the coming of the Lord"

"the Lord himself shall descend from heaven"



Shirley

divaD
Apr 12th 2008, 04:28 PM
After the salvation moment at His return will later begin the vials of His wrath that the church people are not appointed to.



That one simple sentence says it all and is straight to the point. This is exactly the wrath the church is not appointed to. This wrath doesn't occur during the trib. It occurs after the trib, after Christ has returned. Just like in the days of Noah, Noah and his family were saved, and at the same time, God's wrath was upon the wicked. God's salvation and wrath happen together, not seperately.

IBWatching
Apr 12th 2008, 04:33 PM
...Im just trying to point out that the rapture cannot happen, until the ressurection . And the ressurection will not happen until the heavens begin to desintregrate.This has to be after all the tribulation that will happen...

Heavens do not disintegrate until the Day of the Lord. Peter made that very clear. Paul also made it very clear that the Church would not be in the Day of the Lord (1 Thess 5). The resurrection you are talking about takes place when the Church is gathered/resurrected/changed in the air by Jesus Christ, a fact which Paul made known to them right before his remarks to them about the Day of the Lord. The connection in context is unmistakable.

vinsight4u8
Apr 12th 2008, 05:52 PM
That one simple sentence says it all and is straight to the point. This is exactly the wrath the church is not appointed to. This wrath doesn't occur during the trib. It occurs after the trib, after Christ has returned. Just like in the days of Noah, Noah and his family were saved, and at the same time, God's wrath was upon the wicked. God's salvation and wrath happen together, not seperately.

So you must see that the trib is over in Rev. 7 as to it is then when John saw those that came out of great tribulation?
"After this I beheld, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations and kindreds, and people, and tongues stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."

We know that those getting the white robes have come out of great tribulation per v. 14. So the vials are to start after the time of great triulation has ended.

John at this Rev. 7 point is seeing lots around the throne of the Lamb.
all the angels
the elders
and the four beasts

I believe that the palms in the hands of those with white robes show that Jesus is coming to Jerusalem.
Here's my reasoning for that.
When Jesus rode into Jerusalem - as in He was coming - the people used palm branches.
and cried - Hosanna, which means - save us now

"Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna; Blessed {is} the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.'
John 12:13
also see Matthew 21:9, Mark 11:9

Jesus told His people of Israel that they would not see Him till they say, Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord."

Matthew 23:39
"For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye say, Blessed {is} he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

So let's say that Jesus comes in Rev. 7 - and all the angels and such stand about the throne.
Then couldn't later in chapter 8, when John speaks of only seven angels about the throne, couldn't he be going back in time to give us the story of the trumpets that 6th trumpet being till the end of the great tribulation?
Notice that in Rev. 11:19 the part of the trumpet story has now gotten back to where the time of Rev. 7 kind of left off - as in the temple in heaven opened.
Only -John doesn't here write that he sees men - that whole too big to count multitude, instead - John writes that he sees the ark.
John has brought us back up to where men are coming out of great tribulation is ending - and men will soon enter the temple in heaven.
Rev. 11:19- takes us back to the end of Rev. 7.

I'm posting this analogy as you know that the vials come after the rapture.
What if Rev. 8 - is just where John placed the trumpet story, but they don't actually sound at that time?
John saw the seven angels - that were given trumpets. They were given those trumpets back somewhere before chapter 8, even before chapter 7 ends.

cwb
Apr 13th 2008, 04:10 AM
Im just trying to point out that the rapture cannot happen, until the ressurection .



The ressurection of the church (the dead in Christ) and the resurrection of Israel are two different resurrections.

ShirleyFord
Apr 13th 2008, 10:35 AM
The ressurection of the church (the dead in Christ) and the resurrection of Israel are two different resurrections.

CWB,

Where in the Bible does it say that the resurrection of Israel will be a different resurrection than the resurrection of the Church?

Firstfruits
Apr 13th 2008, 10:49 AM
Rapture = being caaught away to be with him.

Jesus ------------I will come and recieve you to myself
, I shall raise you the last day,
--Behold I have told you everything in advance
--After the Trib of those days, I will come-
-look up for your redemption draweth nigh.






Whats all this got to do with the rapture you say?

Everything

We are taught by Paul (according to the word of the Lord) that no-one will be raptured and precede to the lord, until the dead in Christ are ressurected..
and
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, but we wont all sleep,but we will all be changed Immortal , in the twinkling of an eye--at the last trumpet.


This puts the ressurection and the rapture after the trib, at his coming.





Lets examine when this ressurection occurs, so we can know the timing of the rapture.

Heaven and earth pass away then ressurection?







Enjoy the fireworks

Snap!!!! Just done posting the same thing. Amen!!!

th1bill
Apr 13th 2008, 10:53 AM
.. These past eighteen years since my conversion I have watched these foolish arguments being made and have generally refused to comment as they proceed. Having dove in and studied the matter I am very solidly of the pre-trib camp but to argue the matter is utterly foolish, IMO. I am fully persuaded that my LORD will do exactly as He has determined to do and He instructed me to be prepared.
.. I am not to be prepared every year, nor am I to be ready each month, week or day, I am taught by the Word of God to be ready every waking and sleeping moment of my life. If I am thus prepared it does not matter if the LORD does not rapture me before, during or after the Great Tribulation, I'll be found in the same condition that five of the virgins with the lamps were found to be in, prepared.
.. This argument is watched and loved by the world for through these engagements we loose our credibility and are seen as unlearned and foolish. God will come, exactly at the right time, no matter what I think and as His servant I am to be prepared.

Firstfruits
Apr 13th 2008, 10:55 AM
Heavens do not disintegrate until the Day of the Lord. Peter made that very clear. Paul also made it very clear that the Church would not be in the Day of the Lord (1 Thess 5). The resurrection you are talking about takes place when the Church is gathered/resurrected/changed in the air by Jesus Christ, a fact which Paul made known to them right before his remarks to them about the Day of the Lord. The connection in context is unmistakable.

Isn't the day of the Lord when Jesus returns? and isn't that at the last trumpet? and isn't that when we are changed and are rewarded and inherit the Kingdom of God and eternal life? Isn't that at the same time as the saints being caught away?

Firstfruits

cwb
Apr 13th 2008, 04:56 PM
CWB,

Where in the Bible does it say that the resurrection of Israel will be a different resurrection than the resurrection of the Church?

I Thess. 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It only speaks about the dead in Christ here. To put every other human being in this resurrection is adding something that is not there.

ShirleyFord
Apr 13th 2008, 05:43 PM
I Thess. 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It only speaks about the dead in Christ here. To put every other human being in this resurrection is adding something that is not there.

Paul also spoke of only one resurrection of the dead in Acts 24:

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


Just because Paul didn't mention those outside of Christ in 1 Thessalonians 4 being resurrected along with the just, those in Christ, doesn't mean that there will be more than one resurrection.

Mark F
Apr 13th 2008, 06:46 PM
I may not understand what your saying here, but if I am understanding correctly you are saying that there is one resurrection and that is at the start of the new heavens and new earth?

Jesus said in John 5:24-29 much concerning "the resurrection".

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Jesus statement here is worded as if there is one resurrection, the righteous dead, and the unrighteous dead. How can this be one event? Revelation 20 is very clear that 1000 years expire between the resurrection of the righteous dead, and the resurrection of the unrighteous dead.

Rev 20:5;
"But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection"

John then again emphasizes there are more than one by saying again "this is the first resurrection":

Rev. 20:6;
"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."

The Lord Jesus and Paul were just speaking to point out that both the just and unjust will be resurrected and face God, not there will only be one resurrection!

And as far as 1 Thessalonians 4, Paul is being very specific because the dead in Christ and living in Christ are the Church, a distinct and called out people.

No people in time past posses what we posses and are promised the things we are promised as those in Christ. The OT saints were never positionally in Christ as we are, yes His sacrifice saves them, but they never had Christ in them. A distinction has to be seen here.

ShirleyFord
Apr 13th 2008, 08:30 PM
I may not understand what your saying here, but if I am understanding correctly you are saying that there is one resurrection and that is at the start of the new heavens and new earth?

Yes, you are correct. The Bible speaks of only one physical resurrection of the just and the unjust that will occur when Jesus returns.



Jesus said in John 5:24-29 much concerning "the resurrection".

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."


Jesus is actually speaking of two different resurrections in John 5:

A. Spiritual Resurrection when we are born again -

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (John 5:25)
This resurrection, according to Jesus, "now is" and will continue, "is coming".
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
When we are born again it means that we have passed from spiritual death to spiritual life.
Only those who hear will live, will be spiritually resurrected.B. Physical Resurrection From Physical Death -

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29)
This Physical Resurrection is still future.
At the Physical Resurrection all of the dead are in the graves, those who have done good and those who have done evil. Every single person who ever lived from Adam who has died are somewhere on the earth buried in a grave. And on Resurrection day when Christ returns, the Scripture says here that they all hear the Lord's voice. And all shall come forth. None of the dead are left behind in their graves, according to Jesus.


Jesus statement here is worded as if there is one resurrection, the righteous dead, and the unrighteous dead. How can this be one event? Revelation 20 is very clear that 1000 years expire between the resurrection of the righteous dead, and the resurrection of the unrighteous dead.

Rev 20:5;
"But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection"

John then again emphasizes there are more than one by saying again "this is the first resurrection":

Rev. 20:6;
"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."




Jesus is the first resurrection. Our spiritual and physical resurrections are due to our Lord's resurrection. If He had not risen from the dead, then we would have no hope either spiritually or physically.

Those dead in Revelation 20:5a are physically dead as are those in v. 4. Notice it says in v. 5, "the rest of the dead". Well, John has just spoken about those in v. 4 and evidently he is saying that they are also dead.
The only difference is that those in v. 4 "lived" while they were physically dead while "the rest of the dead" in v. 5 did not.


Shirley

Mark F
Apr 13th 2008, 09:02 PM
That's a new one on me. Couldn't disagree more. But that dosen't mean we can't be friends:D.

ShirleyFord
Apr 13th 2008, 09:25 PM
That's a new one on me.

What part of my post is "a new one on me"?


Couldn't disagree more.

Don't just tell me you disagree. Show me.


But that dosen't mean we can't be friends:D.

I agree, Mark F. We are already neighbors. Down in these parts neighbors are like kin. :D


Shirley

Mark F
Apr 14th 2008, 12:26 AM
Shirley,
I don't understand that the two resurections to be one spiritual, one physical.

What you say is a spiritual resurrection I say is a new creation, to be born new. That is a new beginning, not a resurrection, the resurrection concerns our bodies, not our souls. It's just something I have never heard before.

2 Corinthians 5:17
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new"

Galatians 6:15
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation."



John 5:25;
"Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live."

28-29;
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Jesus here is speaking in quite general terms, but to look at it more from your point I could see that as two resurrections for the believers, but that does not negate the fact that the Scriptures clearly show 1000 years between the physical resurrections, John in Rev 20 explicitly states that there is 1000 years between the resurrection of the righteous, and the ressurection of the unrighteous. What you are saying is that there is no 1000 year passage of time, the Milennial Kingdom, until the great white throne judgment before the Everlasting Kingdom is created.

We disagree, sorry for not stating my veiws before.

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2008, 08:39 AM
I Thess. 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It only speaks about the dead in Christ here. To put every other human being in this resurrection is adding something that is not there.

With regards to the following are there two last days?

Jn 6:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jn 6:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:54 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=54) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 11:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Jn 12:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

In the last scripture can those that reject Jesus be judged at the last day if they are not also raised at the last day?

When is judgement day?

vinsight4u8
Apr 14th 2008, 08:45 AM
death is swallowed up in victory at the last trumpet

so- only the just rise and are to never rise again
the veses refer to those that put on incorruption
and also Rev. 20 has the rest don't rise part - till after the 1000 years.

God's armies from heaven
trib martyrs -
live
but not fight the beast /as they already had victory
reign

all other saints
must live, fight at Armageddon
reign

but the rest - as in all of those of the unjust don't rise till after the 1000 years reign of Jesus Christ

vinsight4u8
Apr 14th 2008, 08:57 AM
1 Cor. 15:42
"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption."
v43
"It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:"

the resurrection of the dead
as in only the time of raising the just
then as in v54
"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."
v57
"But thanks {be} to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Chirst."

only - the victory way of ending death is over at the last trumpet

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2008, 09:05 AM
1 Cor. 15:42
"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption."
v43
"It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:"

the resurrection of the dead
as in only the time of raising the just
then as in v54
"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."
v57
"But thanks {be} to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Chirst."

only - the victory way of ending death is over at the last trumpet

Are there two last days, and when it judgement day?

Rev 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

vinsight4u8
Apr 14th 2008, 09:06 AM
Those victory at the last trumpet people will be back - and the one army that was of them that had yet to gain victory over the beast, will fight at Armageddon against him and win.

1 Cor. 15:23
"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits: afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."
The chapter then goes on to list other future events - and includes that he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet, and that last enemy to go down will be death.

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2008, 09:22 AM
Those victory at the last trumpet people will be back - and the one army that was of them that had yet to gain victory over the beast, will fight at Armageddon against him and win.

1 Cor. 15:23
"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits: afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."
The chapter then goes on to list other future events - and includes that he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet, and that last enemy to go down will be death.

Is there a difference between the last day and the last trumpet?

ShirleyFord
Apr 14th 2008, 11:05 AM
Shirley,
I don't understand that the two resurections to be one spiritual, one physical.

What you say is a spiritual resurrection I say is a new creation, to be born new. That is a new beginning, not a resurrection, the resurrection concerns our bodies, not our souls. It's just something I have never heard before.

2 Corinthians 5:17
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new"

Galatians 6:15
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation."



John 5:25;
"Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live."

28-29;
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Jesus here is speaking in quite general terms, but to look at it more from your point I could see that as two resurrections for the believers,

Jesus makes it very clear in John 5 that believers in Christ have two resurrections: (1) Eternal Spiritual Resurrection - resurrected from spiritual death to spiritual life - "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24) (2) Eternal Physical Resurrection of Life - resurrected from physical death in the grave to physical life - "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life" (John 5:28-29a)

Jesus also makes it clear that unbelievers not in Christ have only one resurrection - Eternal Physical Resurrection of Damnation - "and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:29b)




but that does not negate the fact that the Scriptures clearly show 1000 years between the physical resurrections, John in Rev 20 explicitly states that there is 1000 years between the resurrection of the righteous, and the ressurection of the unrighteous.

John doesn't mention the physical resurrection of the believers in Revelation 20:4:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Compare this to Jesus words in John 5 of those who are born again:

"the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." (v. 25)

Notice, that v. 5a of Revelation 20 doesn't say what many says it says, "the rest of the dead, unbelievers, were not physically resurrected with the believers, those in v. 4. But this is what this Scripture actually says:

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

You agree that "the rest of the dead" are the unbelievers who are physically dead. John certainly includes others also who are physcially dead, those who he has just written about in v. 4. Notice that he doesn't say in v. 5a, "the rest of the dead who were not brought to life physically", as many believe it does.

The physical resurrection of Jesus Christ is the first resurrection from physical death of Rev. 20:5b. He was the first to receive the eternal physical resurrection. It was because of His physical resurrection that those in v. 4 lived even though they were still physically dead.

Nowhere in Revelation 20:2-7 where "thousand years" is mentioned does it say that there will be a thousand years between the physical resurrection of believers and the physical resurrection of unbelievers.



What you are saying is that there is no 1000 year passage of time, the Milennial Kingdom, until the great white throne judgment before the Everlasting Kingdom is created.

No, I'm not saying that at all. I don't believe that the Bible teaches a thousand year earthly kingdom, headquarted in earthly Jerusalem located in the modern-day nation of Israel after the Second Coming of Christ. But I do believe that the Bible teaches that we are now in that period of time now.

Jesus has aready received His kingdom and we who are His reign with Him whether we are physically dead or alive from the time we are saved.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


Now, according to Rev 21, Jesus brings His kingdom, New Jerusalem, with Him when He comes back and physically sets it up on the new physical earth. Then and only then will believers be able to enter physically the kingdom of Christ since we will have been physically resurrected and our old sinful, mortal, corruptible bodies changed to righteous, immortal, incorruptible, glorified bodies.

We disagree, sorry for not stating my veiws before.

Thanks Mark F. It is fine to disagree. But I like to know where and why one disagrees with what I post. I'm certainly not perfect by a long shot. And I certainly don't have a perfect understanding of Scripture. I'm still learning and will be until the day I die or Jesus comes back, whichever one is first.


Shirley

Mark F
Apr 14th 2008, 02:22 PM
Posted by ShirleyFord:
Thanks Mark F. It is fine to disagree. But I like to know where and why one disagrees with what I post. I'm certainly not perfect by a long shot. And I certainly don't have a perfect understanding of Scripture. I'm still learning and will be until the day I die or Jesus comes back, whichever one is first.

I will go over this tonight again, want to try to have a clearer understanding of what you wrote. As for the above quote, me too Shirley, me too.

ross3421
Apr 14th 2008, 02:59 PM
The dead in Christ shall rise FIRST........

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2008, 03:40 PM
The dead in Christ shall rise FIRST........

And the dead in Christ shall be raised at the last day, at the last trumpet.

John146
Apr 14th 2008, 04:51 PM
I Thess. 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It only speaks about the dead in Christ here. To put every other human being in this resurrection is adding something that is not there.

Give me the name of one true believer in history who is not in Christ. Is Abraham not in Christ? How about Moses? Elijah? Isaac? Jacob?

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Galatians 3:29

Old Testament believers are in Christ every bit as much as New Testament believers.

1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. - 1 Cor 10:1-4

John146
Apr 14th 2008, 05:08 PM
Shirley,
I don't understand that the two resurections to be one spiritual, one physical.

What you say is a spiritual resurrection I say is a new creation, to be born new. That is a new beginning, not a resurrection, the resurrection concerns our bodies, not our souls. It's just something I have never heard before.

2 Corinthians 5:17
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new"

Galatians 6:15
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation."We are made into new creations by being resurrected from spiritual death to spiritual life.

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: - Eph 2:4-6




John 5:25;
"Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live."

28-29;
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Jesus here is speaking in quite general terms, but to look at it more from your point I could see that as two resurrections for the believers, but that does not negate the fact that the Scriptures clearly show 1000 years between the physical resurrections, John in Rev 20 explicitly states that there is 1000 years between the resurrection of the righteous, and the ressurection of the unrighteous.There is no thousand year separation found in John 5:28-29. It says the hour or time is coming when all the dead are raised. There's no hint at all in that passage of a thousand year separation between believers and unbelievers being raised. In the parable of the wheat and tares it indicates that the wheat (believers) and tares (unbelievers) grow together until the harvest, which Jesus explains is the end of the age. So, right up until the end of the age, believers and unbelievers are together here on the earth. Then what? The wheat and tares are all gathered. At the same time. The unbelievers are cast into a furnace of fire (Matt 13:42) while the wheat will "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father". There's another parable that also indicates that believers and unbelievers are resurrected at the same time:

47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 13:47-50

This passage says that a time is coming when people, both good and bad, will be gathered with the good being kept and the bad being cast into the fire. The gathering is the resurrection of the dead and the casting into the furnace of fire is the same as the unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire on the day of judgment. This passage tells us that all people are resurrected and gathered at the same time and all judged at the same time. Matthew 25:31-46 also makes it clear that all are judged at the same time, and not a thousand years apart. When the dead are raised they are immediately gathered before the throne for sentencing either to everlasting life (believers) or everlasting condemnation (unbelievers).

quiet dove
Apr 14th 2008, 08:08 PM
I will go over this tonight again, want to try to have a clearer understanding of what you wrote. As for the above quote, me too Shirley, me too.

Mark, I disagree that 'first resurrection' is describing our spiritual rebirth in Christ. This is a post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1249500&postcount=61) I did on that subject a while back, so won't post again here.

John146
Apr 14th 2008, 08:56 PM
Mark, I disagree that 'first resurrection' is describing our spiritual rebirth in Christ. This is a post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1249500&postcount=61) I did on that subject a while back, so won't post again here.

I'd like to comment on that post. The Greek word used for "lived" in verse 4 is zao (Strong's G2198). It has various meanings, which you can view here: http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2198&t=kjv

The word is used in a spiritual sense in various passages as well as in a physical sense. The point being that it can be used in a spiritual sense. Here is an example:

31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (zao). - Matt 22:32

In this passage, Jesus says that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and is the God of the living. In other words, He was pointing out that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were still alive spiritually even though they were dead physically.

The word is used in the following passage as well:

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live (zao):
26And whosoever liveth (zao)and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? - John 11:25-26

In this passage, Jesus points out that the one who lives and believes in Him will never die. Obviously, we all die physically, so He was referring to the fact that we will never die spiritually and will live spiritually forever.

The Greek word for "lived" used in Revelation 20:5 is anazao (Strong's G326). That word is used five times in the New Testament and in four cases it refers to coming back to physical life. In Romans 7:9, it is used by Paul to speak of sin coming back to life because of the law. In Romans 7:8 he says "without the law sin was dead". Anyway, the point is that the word is not used to refer to spiritual life at all. So, if Revelation 20:4 was referring to coming back to physical life, I would think the Greek word anazao would have been used there as it is in Rev 20:5. But I believe different words are used for a reason because one speaks of spiritual life and one speaks of physical life.

ShirleyFord
Apr 15th 2008, 01:47 AM
Mark, I disagree that 'first resurrection' is describing our spiritual rebirth in Christ.

QD,

I agree with you that "the first resurrection" spoken of in Revelation 20 is not the spiritual resurrection of believers.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

These two Scriptures in Revelation 20 are the only place we find "the first resurrection" in the entire Bible.

The physical resurrection of Jesus Christ was the first eternal physical resurrection from physical death:

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

Also Jesus is the firstfruits of them that slept:

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

The Feast of Firstfruits, fifty days before the Feast of Penticost, pointed to His resurrection and He was resurrected physically on the Feast of Firstfruits.

The "second resurrection" will be the believers physical resurrection:

1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's

When:

at his coming.


Shirley

IBWatching
Apr 15th 2008, 03:57 PM
Paul also spoke of only one resurrection of the dead in Acts 24:

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


Just because Paul didn't mention those outside of Christ in 1 Thessalonians 4 being resurrected along with the just, those in Christ, doesn't mean that there will be more than one resurrection.

In context, Paul is pointing out that the two resurrections which Jesus taught Israel were believed on by those who were opposing him, just as Paul believed them. Paul's point was that they did believe in resurrection(s), yet that was the only charge they were bringing against him.

Friend of I AM
Apr 15th 2008, 04:03 PM
.. These past eighteen years since my conversion I have watched these foolish arguments being made and have generally refused to comment as they proceed. Having dove in and studied the matter I am very solidly of the pre-trib camp but to argue the matter is utterly foolish, IMO. I am fully persuaded that my LORD will do exactly as He has determined to do and He instructed me to be prepared.
.. I am not to be prepared every year, nor am I to be ready each month, week or day, I am taught by the Word of God to be ready every waking and sleeping moment of my life. If I am thus prepared it does not matter if the LORD does not rapture me before, during or after the Great Tribulation, I'll be found in the same condition that five of the virgins with the lamps were found to be in, prepared.
.. This argument is watched and loved by the world for through these engagements we loose our credibility and are seen as unlearned and foolish. God will come, exactly at the right time, no matter what I think and as His servant I am to be prepared.


Amen Brotha. For some reason no one can seem to take the bible at face value when it states "No one knows the time or hour" except the Father. I don't know why there are so many discussions on this topic at this point, Jesus said to just watch and be prepared.

IBWatching
Apr 15th 2008, 04:04 PM
Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I {saw} the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Two groups. Two resurrections. One group resurrected before the thousand years. The other group after. The last resurrection stated, the one after the 1,000 years, includes the lost.

IBWatching
Apr 15th 2008, 04:32 PM
Isn't the day of the Lord when Jesus returns? and isn't that at the last trumpet? and isn't that when we are changed and are rewarded and inherit the Kingdom of God and eternal life? Isn't that at the same time as the saints being caught away?

Firstfruits

You are persistent. I will give you that. But as I have explained to you before Firstfruits, the Trumpet of God used at the gathering /changing of the Church is not a trumpet of one of seven angels. It belongs to God and there is only one, not 6 more. Also, as I have stated before, Jesus taught two resurrections to Israel. Paul taught only one to the Church. None of them are the same resurrection(s).

As far as the Day of the Lord goes, it starts while Jesus is still seated at the right hand of the Father (Psalms 110). Jesus can't leave there and return to earth until his enemies are underfoot. Jesus also said that He doesn't sit on His throne until He returns to the earth.

cwb
Apr 15th 2008, 11:40 PM
Give me the name of one true believer in history who is not in Christ. Is Abraham not in Christ? How about Moses? Elijah? Isaac? Jacob?

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Galatians 3:29

Old Testament believers are in Christ every bit as much as New Testament believers.

1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. - 1 Cor 10:1-4

So are you saying every human being who ever lived is in Christ? Are you a universalist?

ShirleyFord
Apr 16th 2008, 01:19 AM
In context, Paul is pointing out that the two resurrections which Jesus taught Israel were believed on by those who were opposing him, just as Paul believed them. Paul's point was that they did believe in resurrection(s), yet that was the only charge they were bringing against him.

IB,

Where do you see Paul mentioning "resurrections" in Acts 24?

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

He speaks of "a resurrection" of the dead. The dead includes two groups of people: (1) the just (2) the unjust. However,there is only "a" (singular) "resurrection", Paul says. Not "resurrections" (plural) more than one.

I searched through the OT and the NT to see if I could find "resurrections". All I found was "resurrection", "the resurrection" and "a resurrection".


Shirley

jeffweeder
Apr 16th 2008, 02:17 AM
Hello

Ps 49
15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol,
For He will receive me. Selah. ----( jn 14)




Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth;- those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Thats one Hr, one voice, and the dead are raised either to life or judgement.

To put it another way;


"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."



you can see the same thing in these following scriptures;


But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.



For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.


But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.


And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.


"The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." 25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

ShirleyFord
Apr 16th 2008, 03:37 AM
Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I {saw} the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Two groups. Two resurrections. One group resurrected before the thousand years. The other group after. The last resurrection stated, the one after the 1,000 years, includes the lost.

IB,

From a literal plain reading of Revelation 20:4 and 5a, we don't find the word "resurrection". John was shown "souls" who were physically dead that lived.

I believe these souls in Revelation are the same souls in Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


Notice these souls in Revelation 6 are physically dead, "slain". Why were they slain?

"for the word of God, and testimony which they held".


Why were the souls "beheaded" in Revelation 20:4?

"for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God".

Those in Revelation 6 "lived" even though they were physically slain.

10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

They could speak.

Someone spoke to them and anwered their question:

"it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

So they could also hear. They could also understand what was said to them evidently.

They lived even though they had been killed and were physically dead.


Shirley

IBWatching
Apr 16th 2008, 04:00 PM
IB,

From a literal plain reading of Revelation 20:4 and 5a, we don't find the word "resurrection". John was shown "souls" who were physically dead that lived...

Yes. But that's what happens when a resurrection takes place. A soul is united again with its previous residence, a physical body. There are two kinds, One is a resurrection to the same previous state, a mortal body. The "final" resurrection, however, unites the soul with it's previous body and that body is changed to a deathless state, just as happened to Jesus.

I see no other alternative from the context than that both of these resurrections are of the final type. Neither of them can refer to the resurrection Paul taught the Church, as there are no live saints involved. As you stated eloquently, these people are all dead.

These are (in Rev 20), I believe, the two resurrections which Jesus taught Israel. The first is of the Righteous. The other is of the unrighteous.

IBWatching
Apr 16th 2008, 04:28 PM
IB,

Where do you see Paul mentioning "resurrections" in Acts 24?

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

He speaks of "a resurrection" of the dead. The dead includes two groups of people: (1) the just (2) the unjust. However,there is only "a" (singular) "resurrection", Paul says. Not "resurrections" (plural) more than one.

I searched through the OT and the NT to see if I could find "resurrections". All I found was "resurrection", "the resurrection" and "a resurrection".


Shirley

That Paul was thinking of two resurrections is confirmed in Rev 20. My translation states it this way:


Acts 24:15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.Translations aside, all I need to verify the two resurrections is Rev 20. Another thing to consider (regardless of whether you see 3 general resurrections remaining as I do) is what Paul was hoping for:


Philippians 3:10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.Paul wasn't waiting for a resurrection of the dead. He was looking for one from the dead. Throughout Acts and the Epistles, Jesus' Resurrection is always referred to as being from the dead. I see 3 general resurrections remaining (in order):

1. The resurrection of dead Church saints from the dead at the Gathering.
2. The resurrection of dead OT and tribulation saints from the dead (the first in Rev 20).
3. A final resurrection of the rest of the dead (all lost, the second resurrection of the unrighteous Jesus taught Israel) after the MK and prior to the GWT judgment.

Again, I don't take the statement in Acts 24 to mean the same thing as you do. Even if some of the Jews believed in just one resurrection, the way Paul stated it was one way he could without lying. It misses the reason Paul even made the statement, which was to point out that those who opposed him there agreed with Paul about a resurrection (or even two), yet that was the very thing they were condemning Paul for. Paul wasn't teaching theology to the Church here.

Paul's statement is a correlative conjunction (contains "both/and"). The fact that "a resurrection" precedes that correlation does not explain the pairing of "righteous" and "wicked". Paul recognition of both groups left the possibility of two resurrections. More importantly, it kept his statement in coordination with Jesus' teaching in the Gospels and His Revelation to John. He was able to tell the Truth.

John146
Apr 16th 2008, 04:41 PM
So are you saying every human being who ever lived is in Christ? Are you a universalist?

No. Where did you get that from what I said? My post had to do only with believers and how all believers from all-time are in Christ.

cwb
Apr 16th 2008, 08:38 PM
No. Where did you get that from what I said? My post had to do only with believers and how all believers from all-time are in Christ.

Your post was in reponse to what I said here:



I Thess. 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It only speaks about the dead in Christ here. To put every other human being in this resurrection is adding something that is not there.

John146
Apr 16th 2008, 09:05 PM
Your post was in reponse to what I said here:



I must have read it as though you said to put every other believer in this resurrection is adding something that is not there. But it's true that you don't believe all believers from all-time, whether Jew or Gentile, are included in the resurrection of 1 Thess 4:16-17, right? Earlier you said, "The ressurection of the church (the dead in Christ) and the resurrection of Israel are two different resurrections.". That's what I disagree with because I don't see any scripture that speaks of separate resurrections for the church and for Israel.