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timmyb
Apr 12th 2008, 07:34 PM
1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way,
Who walk in the law of the LORD!
2 Blessed are those who keep His testimonies,
Who seek Him with the whole heart! Psalm 119: 1-2


9 How can a young man cleanse his way?
By taking heed according to Your word.
10 With my whole heart I have sought You;
Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments!
11 Your word I have hidden in my heart,
That I might not sin against You. Psalm 119

I must know why the law of God is so offensive to people? I know we are not under the law but under grace but it's grace that enables us to keep the law. But, how come the Prophets meditated on the law and loved the law with their whole heart if it was so restrictive and bad?

So I want to ask you guys? Is the law, Law.. per se.. or Life to your soul... If you realize that it was a God of Love who gave the law... then his reason for the law was love... I for one want to meditate on his law so that I can see his love and his life in his word...

daughter
Apr 12th 2008, 08:11 PM
Moses says, "Today I set before you a blessing and curse, life and death. Choose life."

The Law can be a curse, it can also be a blessing. It can be death... it can also be life.

Jesus was the Word, He was the Law made manifest... He came to fulfill it, not to destroy it. And He is a blessing or a curse depending on how we receive Him, on how we respond to His Word.

We'd love to be able to draw lines, and say, "here is law, here is grace..."

But the Law IS Grace, Grace is Love, and Love is the Law.

timmyb
Apr 12th 2008, 08:49 PM
and to love the Lord means to obey his law.. John 14:15

threebigrocks
Apr 12th 2008, 08:59 PM
God's law. If we love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind and soul and love our neighbor as ourself we are under grace. If we love ourselves, we love Him who is in us and can then turn and love those who are our neighbor. It's a strong thing, to be able to unconditionally love others just as Christ loved us while we were still sinners.

Matthew 22


35One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him,

36"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
37And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38"This is the great and foremost commandment.
39"The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40"On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

timmyb
Apr 13th 2008, 01:41 AM
and the same grace that saves us is the same grace that empowers us to keep the law, and doesn't see us die when we fail but grace allows us to get back up after we fall.. it's not an excuse to fall... you actually resist grace when you intentionally disobey God's law

threebigrocks
Apr 13th 2008, 02:15 AM
and the same grace that saves us is the same grace that empowers us to keep the law, and doesn't see us die when we fail but grace allows us to get back up after we fall.. it's not an excuse to fall... you actually resist grace when you intentionally disobey God's law


Indeed, love is a powerful thing!

As you quoted in the OP, it's the whole testimony of god, not just law, that speaks of God. ;)

valleybldr
Apr 13th 2008, 11:05 AM
I must know why the law of God is so offensive to people? Because they walk in the flesh. Rom 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." todd

timmyb
Apr 13th 2008, 04:18 PM
but I see CHRISTIANS who do this! Beloved, a life of hating God's law so much as to try to cancel it out only produces a life of hiding and shame. We need to look at the law from the standpoint of the fact that a God of love gave the law to his people because he loved them. Yes he died to free you from the consequences of the law etc. etc. But, if we did open our eyes we would see a God of love behind the law and having the confidence of a God of love behind the law would greatly empower us to want to try to keep the law and increase our dependance upon him when we we do fall.

Love gives the law life. Life is to be found in the law. David and the Prophets saw it. Personally, I want to find that.

threebigrocks
Apr 13th 2008, 10:05 PM
but I see CHRISTIANS who do this! Beloved, a life of hating God's law so much as to try to cancel it out only produces a life of hiding and shame. We need to look at the law from the standpoint of the fact that a God of love gave the law to his people because he loved them. Yes he died to free you from the consequences of the law etc. etc. But, if we did open our eyes we would see a God of love behind the law and having the confidence of a God of love behind the law would greatly empower us to want to try to keep the law and increase our dependance upon him when we we do fall.

Love gives the law life. Life is to be found in the law. David and the Prophets saw it. Personally, I want to find that.

The law gives life only if it exposes our seperation from God through sin and we allow our heart to hear that in conviction.

Really - God's law was given to Moses while the Israelites did exactly what God's law said not to do. As they were given the law not to worship idols - they were making a golden calf to worship. They broke every one of those.

Romans 7



6But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
7What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." 8But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.



If God loved His people, then why give them the Law that could only make us "worse sinners"?

timmyb
Apr 13th 2008, 11:05 PM
But look at Hosea 6:6 I desire mercy and not sacrifice and the knowledge of God above burnt offerings.

the law doesn't make us sinners... the law only exposes us for who we really are... we are already worse sinners... God wanted us to realize that so he gave us the law. The law doesn't make anyone anything. The law defines who God is and his holiness. And it only shows us just how unholy we are.

threebigrocks
Apr 13th 2008, 11:28 PM
But look at Hosea 6:6 I desire mercy and not sacrifice and the knowledge of God above burnt offerings.

the law doesn't make us sinners... the law only exposes us for who we really are... we are already worse sinners... God wanted us to realize that so he gave us the law. The law doesn't make anyone anything. The law defines who God is and his holiness. And it only shows us just how unholy we are.

And that was more of what I was getting at with the question. ;)

Mark F
Apr 14th 2008, 02:07 AM
To see the law is to see who can do it, we have the record of it, and it shows us Him.

Psalm 19:7-11:
7 "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart;
The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever;
The judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold,
Yea, than much fine gold;
Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them Your servant is warned,
And in keeping them there is great reward."

Perfect--
Hebrews 5:9
"And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,"
James 1:25
"But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does."

Sure--
Hebrews 7:22
"by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant"


Right--
1 John 2:1
"My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."


Pure--
1 John 3:2-3
"Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure."



Clean--
John 15:1-4
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me."



True and Righteous altogether--
1 John 5:20
"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."


The above is a sample of the two-fold witness of the Bible, within itself about itself, and also of its witness to the person of Jesus Christ. Upon the pages of Scripture, we find the one who can change our hearts from the inside, which in Hebrews we find a similar claim;

Hebrews 4:12
"For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Naphal
Apr 14th 2008, 03:38 AM
but I see CHRISTIANS who do this!

These Christians you speak of sound like they know scripture well.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Galatians 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Brother Mark
Apr 14th 2008, 08:46 AM
and the same grace that saves us is the same grace that empowers us to keep the law, and doesn't see us die when we fail but grace allows us to get back up after we fall.. it's not an excuse to fall... you actually resist grace when you intentionally disobey God's law

I like your definition of grace. It is power to do as God commands! As for the law, Paul himself said it was good. One purpose of the law was to wrap man up in sin so that he would be exceedingly sinful and see his need for Christ. Without the law, we wouldn't know our need.

But more importantly for today's believer, we need to know the shadows or spirit of the law because we live by the Spirit of the law now and not the letter. For instance, we can know our own priestly duties to God by studying the priestly duties in the Old Testament. But we do not keep the letter of those laws anymore. But we certainly keep the spirit behind them! We know more of what it means to enter into the Holy of Holies and what it means to be purified, of atonement and all the other things as they pertain to Christ. So the eternal law of God still stands. What was God really teaching about? Was the food law only about food? Or was it about holiness? If it was about holiness, then what was the spirit of the law concerning food?

valleybldr
Apr 14th 2008, 09:49 AM
These Christians you speak of sound like they know scripture well. All your quotes are Pauline. People "who know Scripture well" use the whole book not one section that is described as being used by some for their own destruction. todd

Naphal
Apr 14th 2008, 09:51 AM
All your quotes are Pauline. People "who know Scripture well" use the whole book not one section that is described as being used by some for their own destruction. todd

Do you have a problem with scripture by Paul??

valleybldr
Apr 14th 2008, 09:55 AM
Do you have a problem with scripture by Paul?? That's not what I implied. It is used by some to dramatically counter the rest of Scripture...that's a problem. todd

Naphal
Apr 14th 2008, 09:57 AM
That's not what I implied. It is used by some to dramatically counter the rest of Scripture...that's a problem. todd

Scripture by Paul is as valid as any scripture that can be quoted. Do you agree?

valleybldr
Apr 14th 2008, 10:14 AM
Scripture by Paul is as valid as any scripture that can be quoted. Do you agree? Absolutely, but I don't see Paul countering declarations of God stated by the written or Living Word. todd

Naphal
Apr 14th 2008, 09:20 PM
Absolutely, but I don't see Paul countering declarations of God stated by the written or Living Word. todd

Sure he does. There are many things that are old and simply no longer apply. Christ spoke of working on the Sabbath if it was for a higher cause, Paul lets Christians know they are no longer under the law but under grace. You cant take OT law and say it's commanded and it is over Christians when we are told it isnt.

valleybldr
Apr 15th 2008, 09:24 AM
Sure he does. There are many things that are old and simply no longer apply. Christ spoke of working on the Sabbath if it was for a higher cause, Paul lets Christians know they are no longer under the law but under grace. You cant take OT law and say it's commanded and it is over Christians when we are told it isnt."Over," "under" ....it's an expression of God's heart. I don't feel "under" anything. Many stressers in life but God's words should not be so. todd

brakelite
Apr 15th 2008, 11:54 AM
Sure he does. There are many things that are old and simply no longer apply. Christ spoke of working on the Sabbath if it was for a higher cause, Paul lets Christians know they are no longer under the law but under grace. You cant take OT law and say it's commanded and it is over Christians when we are told it isnt.

Funny thing about the sabbath. People pounce on the sabbath every time the law is mentioned. "I'm not under the law, therefore I don't need to observe the sabbath." Never seem to hear people say" I'm not under the law therefore I can steal your car."
And so often further reasoning is added such as you did Naphal, by saying Jesus advocated working on the sabbath if it was helpful to man or beast, and therefore throwing out the baby with the bathwater by claiming that thus the whole sabbath issue is now null and void. Jesus corrected the observation of the sabbath. He didn't cancel it. The way He taught for the sabbath to be observed was the way it ought to have been done all along. And the way it ought to be done today.

TimmyB, the law is awesome. I agree with you and David,

Ps 119:33 ¶ HE. Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end.
34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
35 ¶ Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.
36 Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.
37 ¶ Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.
38 ¶ Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear.
39 ¶ Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments are good.
40 ¶ Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.

timmyb
Apr 15th 2008, 05:55 PM
These Christians you speak of sound like they know scripture well.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Galatians 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


and it's by grace that we have more of an obligation to the moral law... in by rejecting the law you reject the spirit of grace... I am not under the consequences of the law... but under grace... yes that is true. Paul warns the churches time and time again that the law is still there and that there is still a moral code that Christians have to keep... and those that reject it fall away from the faith....

timmyb
Apr 15th 2008, 05:58 PM
Funny thing about the sabbath. People pounce on the sabbath every time the law is mentioned. "I'm not under the law, therefore I don't need to observe the sabbath." Never seem to hear people say" I'm not under the law therefore I can steal your car."
And so often further reasoning is added such as you did Naphal, by saying Jesus advocated working on the sabbath if it was helpful to man or beast, and therefore throwing out the baby with the bathwater by claiming that thus the whole sabbath issue is now null and void. Jesus corrected the observation of the sabbath. He didn't cancel it. The way He taught for the sabbath to be observed was the way it ought to have been done all along. And the way it ought to be done today.

TimmyB, the law is awesome. I agree with you and David,

Ps 119:33 ¶ HE. Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end.
34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
35 ¶ Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.
36 Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.
37 ¶ Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.
38 ¶ Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear.
39 ¶ Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments are good.
40 ¶ Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.

:agree::agree::agree::agree::agree::agree:
:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::b ounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:

yes yes yes!!! My point exactly!!!!

mikebr
Apr 15th 2008, 06:52 PM
But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;

Explain this and the rest of 2 Cor 3.


Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2

Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
Ye 1st Cor 9:1 (http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B46C009.htm#V1)
3

Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4

And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5

Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
new testament Mark 14:24 (http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B41C014.htm#V24), Luke 22:20 (http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B42C022.htm#V20), 1st Cor 11:25 (http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B46C011.htm#V25), Heb 9:15 (http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B58C009.htm#V15)
7

But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8

How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9

For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10

For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11

For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12

Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 (http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B47C003.htm#N13)

And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
end (http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B47C003.htm#N13)
14

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
blinded Psalms 8:2 (http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B19C008.htm#V2), Matt 11:25 (http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B40C011.htm#V25), 1st Cor 1:27 (http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B46C001.htm#V27), 2:7,8 (http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B46C002.htm#V7)
15

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16

Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
glass 1st Cor 13:12 (http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B46C013.htm#V12), 2nd Cor 5:7 (http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B47C005.htm#V7)

timmyb
Apr 15th 2008, 06:55 PM
Absolutely, but I don't see Paul countering declarations of God stated by the written or Living Word. todd

This is one of my main arguments for Israel, the Law, Paul didn't just contradict the OT, not even by accident... he knew the OT like the back of his hand... he used the OT to reason with people... in no way did he contradict the OT, if we see a contradiction, we need to change our understanding of the scripture...

Bible Answers
Apr 15th 2008, 07:41 PM
1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way,
Who walk in the law of the LORD!
2 Blessed are those who keep His testimonies,
Who seek Him with the whole heart! Psalm 119: 1-2


9 How can a young man cleanse his way?
By taking heed according to Your word.
10 With my whole heart I have sought You;
Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments!
11 Your word I have hidden in my heart,
That I might not sin against You. Psalm 119

I must know why the law of God is so offensive to people? I know we are not under the law but under grace but it's grace that enables us to keep the law. But, how come the Prophets meditated on the law and loved the law with their whole heart if it was so restrictive and bad?

So I want to ask you guys? Is the law, Law.. per se.. or Life to your soul... If you realize that it was a God of Love who gave the law... then his reason for the law was love... I for one want to meditate on his law so that I can see his love and his life in his word...


The Law that we are no longer under is the Old Law. It was the Law that was given to lead us to Christ (Galatians 3:24). Paul's letter to the Galatians was written to a people who were trying to get to God by following the Old Law that included circumcision (Galatians 5:1-4), the observance of special days, months, seasons and years (Galatians 4:10), Paul even points it out to Peter when Peter was wthdrawing from the Gentiles even though he was a Jew living like the Gentiles yet compelling the Gentiles to live as Jews (Galatians 2:14-16).....In other words Peter by his actions (Galatians 2:11-13) and others by their teachings (Galatians 1:6-8) were attempting to live as under the Law of Moses and get the Gentiles to do the same. We see the same idea attempted in Acts 15 and the church in Jerusalem came together with the apostles to discuss the matter. Paul here in Galatians makes it clear that the Law had served its purpose and that was to bring us to Christ and now that Christ had come the Law (in context Law of Moses as I showed) was no longer in effect (Galatians 3:24-25) and therefore NOW there is no Jew or Gentile but all are heirs through Christ (Galatians 3:26-29).

But also in Galatians Paul makes it clear that there is also a Law of Christ that must be kept (Galatians 6:2). In context the Law spoken of there specifically is bearing the burdens of our brothers. Surely no one thinks we are not required to keep that Law. What about John 3:16? Are we to keep the requirement (Law?) to believe in Christ? Must one obey the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8)? Must one walk in the light to have the blood of Jesus cleanse us from sin (1 John 1:5-7)? Are these things Law for the follower of God today or may we ignore them?

valleybldr
Apr 15th 2008, 08:00 PM
This is one of my main arguments for Israel, the Law, Paul didn't just contradict the OT, not even by accident... he knew the OT like the back of his hand... he used the OT to reason with people... in no way did he contradict the OT, if we see a contradiction, we need to change our understanding of the scripture... Oh, but that would expose Christianity's long standing Anti-Jewish prejudice. I really wonder if all the people who see God's directives as oppressive have ever read and studyed them with an open mind. At any rate, the time is coming when Torah will pour forth from Jerusalem and the author of that legal code (Christ) will use it while reigning over all nations. Paul will be as Torah observant then as he was when writing his letters. "'Til heaven and earth pass away..." todd

Brother Mark
Apr 15th 2008, 08:48 PM
It is the spirit of the law that matters. The letter is what kills. The law was a minister of death. The law, written in stone, was used to wrap man up in sin. It leads us to Christ so that we are no longer "under" the law because it is now in our hearts.

The spirit of the law still stands! We minister as priest to God. How are we to know how to do that if we ignore the priestly duties taught in the OT? But they mean something in the spiritual. We don't need a temple, or a veil, or a holy of Holies any more. Those were all shadows of the real and once the real was revealed, the shadow wasn't needed any more. That which cast the shadow is of far more importance than the shadow itself. Therefore, the spirit (actual) of the law is more important that the letter (shadow) of the law.

timmyb
Apr 15th 2008, 08:51 PM
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:26-29

go and sin for a while if you think the law has no effect...

As for me I will love the law of the Lord for the Lord that I love is to be found in the law. The question is not a how do we keep the law. The question should be, Why? If we knew why God gave us the law we would see more and more of him. That's why David meditated on the law day and night in Psalm 1. This isn't the Talmud which tells us how we keep the law. This is the Bible in which are found the words of life. When we reject the knowing of God by the law we are throwing away precious life.

Brother Mark
Apr 15th 2008, 08:55 PM
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:26-29

go and sin for a while if you think the law has no effect...

As for me I will love the law of the Lord for the Lord that I love is to be found in the law. The question is not a how do we keep the law. The question should be, Why? If we knew why God gave us the law we would see more and more of him. That's why David meditated on the law day and night in Psalm 1. This isn't the Talmud which tells us how we keep the law. This is the Bible in which are found the words of life. When we reject the knowing of God by the law we are throwing away precious life.

Another question is what is the Law we are to keep? If we are referring to the OT letter, we will miss God by a long shot. For God is seeking those who will worship him in "spirit and truth" not in "letter and truth". We need to know what God likes. He wants a priesthood of believers that ministers to him through the tabernacle in heaven not the earthly tabernacle. It is God's eternal law, the spirit of the law, we are to keep today.

Heb 8:1-5
Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary, and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; hence it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "See," He says, "that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain."
NASB

God showed Moses the pattern on Sinai for the heavenly tabernacle. That is our focus now. Let us be priest to Him according to the tabernacle in the heavenlies!

Brother Mark
Apr 15th 2008, 09:02 PM
Oh, but that would expose Christianity's long standing Anti-Jewish prejudice. I really wonder if all the people who see God's directives as oppressive have ever read and studyed them with an open mind. At any rate, the time is coming when Torah will pour forth from Jerusalem and the author of that legal code (Christ) will use it while reigning over all nations. Paul will be as Torah observant then as he was when writing his letters. "'Til heaven and earth pass away..." todd

At the risk of beating a dead horse...

It won't be like it was then. For then, they offered sacrifices for sin and now there is no more sacrifice for sin. The spirit of the Torah will be kept! The letter is no longer needed in the sense it was in the OT. God's law never goes away, but it was explained more fully through Paul and Christ. Now we minister to the heavenly tabernacle. All true believers are Priest instead of now just one select tribe.

Athanasius
Apr 15th 2008, 09:11 PM
Oh, but that would expose Christianity's long standing Anti-Jewish prejudice.

Christianity has a long standing Anti-Jewish prejudice? Perhaps 'Christianity' in name only. . . But getting back to the topic of this thread. . . .

Romans 7:7-13
7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

timmyb
Apr 15th 2008, 09:15 PM
At the risk of beating a dead horse...

It won't be like it was then. For then, they offered sacrifices for sin and now there is no more sacrifice for sin. The spirit of the Torah will be kept! The letter is no longer needed in the sense it was in the OT. God's law never goes away, but it was explained more fully through Paul and Christ. Now we minister to the heavenly tabernacle. All true believers are Priest instead of now just one select tribe.

it was never supposed to be a "how" as to the letter of the word... Notice how God's objective throughout the Old Testament was that HE be known... not that his laws would be kept... that was impossible then and it would be impossible now if it weren't for his spirit aiding us and teaching us... It's not about keeping the law... it's about knowing God. If we truly knew God we would find it alot easier to keep his laws because we would trust him because we would intimately know him.

The root of our sin problem is the fact that we are lacking intimate knowledge of God. We know the Bible and we know the law but we lack the knowledge of God as a person. If we knew God as a transcendent God and trusted his leadership then we wouldn't be so shaken when Satan comes and tempts us in those areas. It's a matter of trusting God.

That is very offensive to a student of the Bible to say that they don't know God. But Jesus even said it about the Pharisees, that they search the scriptures but didn't have life because they wouldn't come to him.

valleybldr
Apr 15th 2008, 09:18 PM
At the risk of beating a dead horse...

It won't be like it was then. For then, they offered sacrifices for sin and now there is no more sacrifice for sin. The spirit of the Torah will be kept! The letter is no longer needed in the sense it was in the OT. God's law never goes away, but it was explained more fully through Paul and Christ. Now we minister to the heavenly tabernacle. All true believers are Priest instead of now just one select tribe. A different Temple, a different age but it's the same Law. Try Zech 14 where you'll find Egypt following Torah. If they don't physically keep it they will be cursed with no rain. todd

Brother Mark
Apr 15th 2008, 09:19 PM
it was never supposed to be a "how" as to the letter of the word... Notice how God's objective throughout the Old Testament was that HE be known... not that his laws would be kept... that was impossible then and it would be impossible now if it weren't for his spirit aiding us and teaching us... It's not about keeping the law... it's about knowing God. If we truly knew God we would find it alot easier to keep his laws because we would trust him because we would intimately know him.

The root of our sin problem is the fact that we are lacking intimate knowledge of God. We know the Bible and we know the law but we lack the knowledge of God as a person. If we knew God as a transcendent God and trusted his leadership then we wouldn't be so shaken when Satan comes and tempts us in those areas. It's a matter of trusting God.

That is very offensive to a student of the Bible to say that they don't know God. But Jesus even said it about the Pharisees, that they search the scriptures but didn't have life because they wouldn't come to him.

Amen! Great post. It has never been the words written in ink that gave life. It has always been Him and His ways.

2 Cor 3:2-3
2 You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of human hearts.
NASB

As we learn the ways of God, we do not resist his deeper work in us. He takes us through deserts for our testing. If we resist, we end up like the generation that murmured against God and was laid low in the wilderness. If we submit to the process, we can be like the generation that Joshua led to victory! But it is only as we learn the ways of God and how he operates that we can submit to Him and His ways.

Nice thread.

Brother Mark
Apr 15th 2008, 09:23 PM
A different Temple, a different age but it's the same Law. Try Zech 14 where you'll find Egypt following Torah. todd

All shadows. The letter won't explain it to us. That's why the Spirit leads us into truth. We cannot know that the incense offered in the OT is prayers until we see the revelation Paul had. The grain sacrifice that is to be salted, is us offering ourselves, full of grace, to God as Romans 12 and Colossians explains. If we still hold to the idea of eating pork is sinful which is the letter, we may miss the whole concept of holiness defined by only eating the word of God and not the words of the enemy. It is the spiritual food that defiles not that which is passed through a man but that which takes root in a man and then comes out of him that defiles him.

The eternal law still stands. The pharisees misunderstood the law, as did Paul when he was lost. Caught up in the letter, they missed Christ. We can too if we are not careful. Moving into the spirit of the law, we see Christ more clearly and are able to walk in the spirit of the law continuously because it is written in our hearts.

Naphal
Apr 15th 2008, 09:27 PM
Funny thing about the sabbath. People pounce on the sabbath every time the law is mentioned. "I'm not under the law, therefore I don't need to observe the sabbath." Never seem to hear people say" I'm not under the law therefore I can steal your car."

No one says there aren't any laws. Christ re-instituted much of the old law but not all of it. The Sabbath wasn't one of them but stealing was.




And so often further reasoning is added such as you did Naphal, by saying Jesus advocated working on the sabbath if it was helpful to man or beast, and therefore throwing out the baby with the bathwater by claiming that thus the whole sabbath issue is now null and void. Jesus corrected the observation of the sabbath. He didn't cancel it. The way He taught for the sabbath to be observed was the way it ought to have been done all along. And the way it ought to be done today.


It wasn't that way all along. It was a new change being instituted for the new covenant. Christ never taught to keep the Sabbath in the way it was commanded for the old covenant. Christ is the Sabbath now and we can have rest spiritually everyday.




TimmyB, the law is awesome.


Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Romans 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

We have to be dead to the law in order to marry Christ. If we are not, then we are married to the law and we cannot receive the promises of the new covenant.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


Paul says Christians are delivered from the law, because the old covenant law is dead.

Naphal
Apr 15th 2008, 09:29 PM
and it's by grace that we have more of an obligation to the moral law... in by rejecting the law you reject the spirit of grace...

Moral law is fine. But the old covenant law is dead according to Paul and we are set free from it. The moral law which we should follow is contained in the NT.

Brother Mark
Apr 15th 2008, 09:30 PM
Paul says Christians are delivered from the law, because the old covenant law is dead.


Actually, it's because we are dead, not the law according to Romans 7.

Of course, Hebrews 8-9 speaks of how the old covenant is fading away as it has been replaced with a better covenant. But the covenant is better because we were what was faulty. So he included in the new covenant a change in us.

Naphal
Apr 15th 2008, 09:39 PM
Actually, it's because we are dead, not the law according to Romans 7.

Of course, Hebrews 8-9 speaks of how the old covenant is fading away as it has been replaced with a better covenant. But the covenant is better because we were what was faulty. So he included in the new covenant a change in us.

We become dead to the law because the law is dead as he clarifies in this verse:

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

And this is in harmony with with Romans as naturally something that is dead is decaying and ready to vanish away like any corpse will. Dust to dust...

Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Romans 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


In the example of the woman married to a man, she does not die but he does which sets her free. This makes her "dead to her husband" in a figure of speech which means he died.

brakelite
Apr 15th 2008, 09:40 PM
The statement by Jesus that those who would worship Him must do so in Spirit and truth, is misconstrued to mean that this somehow annuls our obligation to obey the commandments.
Also used in this vein is the section quoted above: nowhere does it state that the law is voided. It is the manner in which obedience is effected that has changed. I, nor anyone else, can keep the law by following it to the letter. That is, by focusing upon the written law and attempting in my strength to obeying all the commandments. That is walking in the flesh. But if by the Spirit I do mortify the flesh and allow God to work in me His righteousness, and by His strength then I can find the power to obey all the commandments. It is by focusing upon Him,; worshiping Him in Spirit and truth, that He then abides in me and I begin to take on the nature and character of God, my Father. Obedience to the commandments then becomes the natural thing for me to do, and it becomes my delight and greatest pleasure. Jesus said that those who hunger and thirst after righteousness will be filled. This righteousness expresses itself through obedience.
It is this that was hidden from Israel. They could not see the purpose in the sacrificial system; they could not see the end of all that they were attempting to accomplish by following the letter. They could not see Christ.
So God made a new covenant. He has written the law on our hearts and minds.
It is a covenant that infuses us with God's love. And as we express that love to Him and to our fellow man, we find that the commandments are kept, to the letter.
That includes the sabbath commandment, it includes the commandment regarding adultery, stealing, idolatry, and covetousness. None of the commandments will be broken if we are loving God with all our hearts, minds, souls and strength, and our neighbour as ourselves.
As Jesus said, "if you love Me, keep My commandments".

Naphal
Apr 15th 2008, 09:50 PM
Also used in this vein is the section quoted above: nowhere does it state that the law is voided.

Paul says the law is dead and only because of this are we able to remarry, to Christ. That equals being voided.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Are you delivered from the law brakelite?





That includes the sabbath commandment, it includes the commandment regarding adultery, stealing, idolatry, and covetousness. None of the commandments will be broken if we are loving God with all our hearts, minds, souls and strength, and our neighbour as ourselves.
As Jesus said, "if you love Me, keep My commandments".



Christ never commanded to keep the Sabbath so the NT commandments from Christ do not include the Sabbath. We are to keep the new commandments not the old since those are dead now.

Brother Mark
Apr 15th 2008, 09:51 PM
We become dead to the law because the law is dead as he clarifies in this verse:

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

My translation reads...

Rom 7:6
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
NASB

:hmm:


Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

And this is in harmony with with Romans as naturally something that is dead is decaying and ready to vanish away like any corpse will. Dust to dust...

Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Romans 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


In the example of the woman married to a man, she does not die but he does which sets her free. This makes her "dead to her husband" in a figure of speech which means he died.


I think it is us who dies. However, the old is decaying and has been replaced. But the spirit of the law still stands. It is eternal. And keep in mind that it is the covenant that is decaying and has been replaced. Which means the regulations of the old covenant are replaced and superceded. However, without law, a covenant cannot be made.

Naphal
Apr 15th 2008, 09:59 PM
My translation reads...

Rom 7:6
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
NASB

:hmm:

I think it is us who dies. However, the old is decaying and has been replaced. But the spirit of the law still stands. It is eternal. And keep in mind that it is the covenant that is decaying and has been replaced. Which means the regulations of the old covenant are replaced and superceded. However, without law, a covenant cannot be made.

We have laws in the NT, they just aren't the exact same ones of the old.

And if we go to the example given, we are the woman married to a man. The man dies and frees the woman to be able to remarry. We then do not die but the law does. It is a figure of speech to say "we are dead to the law" because that means the law is dead literally and we are symbolically dead to it. Again, this is why the old covenant (including the old law) is decayed and vanishing. It's a rotting corpse and that what happens to the dead. We are a living woman set free from the clutches of our old husband which has died and thus we are dead to him and free to remarry Christ.

Brother Mark
Apr 15th 2008, 10:05 PM
We have laws in the NT, they just aren't the exact same ones of the old.

And if we go to the example given, we are the woman married to a man. The man dies and frees the woman to be able to remarry. We then do not die but the law does. It is a figure of speech to say "we are dead to the law" because that means the law is dead literally and we are symbolically dead to it. Again, this is why the old covenant (including the old law) is decayed and vanishing. It's a rotting corpse and that what happens to the dead. We are a living woman set free from the clutches of our old husband which has died and thus we are dead to him and free to remarry Christ.

We are dead in Christ. The law, the spiritual law, still stands. Paul himself taught that we are crucified with Christ and are dead. The example was given to show how the law has power over one who lives. But once one is dead, it no longer has power over them. That is why it is so important to be crucified with Christ. It is also why Paul wrote clearly that it is we who die and not the law that died.

Now, the regulations of the covenant are indeed fading away with the old covenant. The new covenant is eternal. Both are based in the eternal law of God.

It is the law that leads us to Christ. Were it dead, it could accomplish nothing. But it still has the ability to empower sin as it always did.


Nothing in scripture says the law is gone. The spirit of that law still lives on. Else, how could we be priest? We learn that from the OT law. We just recognize it is the spirit of that OT law we walk in. We learn of the heavenly tabernacle and how to minister to God in spirit and truth from the OT law.

Naphal
Apr 15th 2008, 11:12 PM
We are dead in Christ. The law, the spiritual law, still stands. Paul himself taught that we are crucified with Christ and are dead. The example was given to show how the law has power over one who lives. But once one is dead, it no longer has power over them. That is why it is so important to be crucified with Christ. It is also why Paul wrote clearly that it is we who die and not the law that died.


He writes the law is dead and gives an example of a man who dies who represents the law. We are the woman in that example and we do not die. Scripture has different analogies which speak to us being dead but in this example we are not but it is the law that is dead.





Now, the regulations of the covenant are indeed fading away with the old covenant.

It has faded completely for those in the new covenant.



The new covenant is eternal. Both are based in the eternal law of God.

Yes.




Nothing in scripture says the law is gone. The spirit of that law still lives on.



Scripture speaks of both of those things. The old law is gone, but the Spirit of that law lives on in the new covenant laws.

timmyb
Apr 16th 2008, 12:46 AM
it's faded huh... then how do you know you have sinned?

Naphal
Apr 16th 2008, 12:48 AM
it's faded huh... then how do you know you have sinned?

The new covenant has laws.

Brother Mark
Apr 16th 2008, 12:54 AM
The new covenant has laws.

What good is the old testament?

timmyb
Apr 16th 2008, 12:57 AM
The new covenant has laws.

Explain why Romans 7 is even in the Bible... when he saw the law.. You shall not covet (An OT law) he realized his sin by the law.

New Laws.. Then Please explain...

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:17-20

There are no "new laws." Show me where there are "New Laws" clearly in Scripture. New Moral Laws. We all know that Sacrificial laws have faded away. That's not the topic now.

Naphal
Apr 16th 2008, 01:12 AM
What good is the old testament?

What part? There is still worthy things in it but we cannot live according to the old when we have the new.

Brother Mark
Apr 16th 2008, 01:14 AM
What part? There is still worthy things in it but we cannot live according to the old when we have the new.

Shoot, let's just lay it out there, all of it. Old testament law, the prophets, the historical, etc. Is it ALL of use to us?

Naphal
Apr 16th 2008, 01:19 AM
Explain why Romans 7 is even in the Bible... when he saw the law.. You shall not covet (An OT law) he realized his sin by the law.

Paul upholds the laws that Christ did. The laws that he didn't, aren't upheld.




New Laws.. Then Please explain...

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:17-20




Christ fulfilled the law and prophets. This doesn't destroy them but it also does not mean they are in effect any longer. Fulfilled means to be finished.



There are no "new laws." Show me where there are "New Laws" clearly in Scripture. New Moral Laws. We all know that Sacrificial laws have faded away. That's not the topic now.

Not just the sacrificial ones. The new laws are based on some of the old. But some of the old are not established in the new covenant.


Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

ordinances

1378
1378 dogma {dog'-mah}

from the base of 1380; TDNT - 2:230,178; n n

AV - decree 3, ordinance 2; 5

1) doctrine, decree, ordinance
1a) of public decrees
1b) of the Roman Senate
1c) of rulers
2) the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a
suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment
3) of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living

Naphal
Apr 16th 2008, 01:22 AM
Shoot, let's just lay it out there, all of it. Old testament law, the prophets, the historical, etc. Is it ALL of use to us?

Of use sure, but we cannot reject the new covenant for the old or compromise the new for parts of the old we want to cling to.

Much of the OT law no longer applies. Ephesians 2:15

There are still prophecies that have not come to pass which are
unaffected by the new covenant.

Historical always have value as history.

Brother Mark
Apr 16th 2008, 01:26 AM
Of use sure, but we cannot reject the new covenant for the old or compromise the new for parts of the old we want to cling to.

Much of the OT law no longer applies. Ephesians 2:15

There are still prophecies that have not come to pass which are
unaffected by the new covenant.

Historical always have value as history.

Why was Christ sacrifice necessary and how could it be provisional? Based on what law?

The laws do not exist inside the covenants. The covenants exist inside the law. It is because of law the covenants hold fast.

God's law is eternal. A sacrifice for sin was needed in the old and the new. The covenant changed, the law did not. The way the law is kept has also changed. Mostly, that has occurred because we are changed and empowered.

We no longer offer sacrifices for sin because Jesus is our sacrifice. All the levitical laws are met and fulfilled in Him.

How do you know how to fulfill your duties as a priest unto the Lord?

timmyb
Apr 16th 2008, 01:28 AM
Paul upholds the laws that Christ did. The laws that he didn't, aren't upheld.






Christ fulfilled the law and prophets. This doesn't destroy them but it also does not mean they are in effect any longer. Fulfilled means to be finished.[\quote]

then go and kill someone and tell me if that is fulfilled




Not just the sacrificial ones. The new laws are based on some of the old. But some of the old are not established in the new covenant.


Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

ordinances

1378
1378 dogma {dog'-mah}

from the base of 1380; TDNT - 2:230,178; n n

AV - decree 3, ordinance 2; 5

1) doctrine, decree, ordinance
1a) of public decrees
1b) of the Roman Senate
1c) of rulers
2) the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a
suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment
3) of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living

The sacrificial law isn't even a part of the disussion. I'm talking about the Ten Commandments You shall have no other gods before me. No killing. No bearing false witness.

I really don't think we're talking about the same thing here. I'm not talking about ordinances, foods, and drinks here. I'm talking about the MORAL LAW OF MOSES. Is that fulfilled? If it has then explain why Paul told the church not to sin and how their sin was identified.

Brother Mark
Apr 16th 2008, 01:32 AM
The sacrificial law isn't even a part of the disussion. I'm talking about the Ten Commandments You shall have no other gods before me. No killing. No bearing false witness.

I really don't think we're talking about the same thing here. I'm not talking about ordinances, foods, and drinks here. I'm talking about the MORAL LAW OF MOSES. Is that fulfilled? If it has then explain why Paul told the church not to sin and how their sin was identified.

What's interesting is the 10 commandments were placed inside the ark. If the Ark is a type of Christ, then the commandments are "in him". The regulations of the covenant were placed outside the ark. From the abundance of God's heart, he uttered the law.

Without a permanent law, no covenant could have been established at all.


But even the sacrificial laws are still in effect today! For without them, Christ sacrifice is not needed!!!! But because he was sacrificed, they are fulfilled. We no longer keep them in letter, but in spirit, Christ is our sacrifice.

Naphal
Apr 16th 2008, 01:43 AM
The sacrificial law isn't even a part of the disussion. I'm talking about the Ten Commandments You shall have no other gods before me. No killing. No bearing false witness.


All of the law is addressed in that verse, not only part of it. Only some of the ten commandments were re-instituted by Christ:

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

So lets see from God himself what we need to do to have eternal life.

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Matthew 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Matthew 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


If the fourth commandment is so important, why did Christ not include it in what's needed to receive eternal life? Does that actually mean one can believe Christ is the true Sabbath, receive eternal life and not be confined to the old rules of the Saturday Sabbath? Yes.



I really don't think we're talking about the same thing here. I'm not talking about ordinances, foods, and drinks here. I'm talking about the MORAL LAW OF MOSES. Is that fulfilled?

Some is, some isn't.



If it has then explain why Paul told the church not to sin and how their sin was identified.

Sin is identified by the laws of the NT, not by the old.

timmyb
Apr 16th 2008, 01:43 AM
naphal,

We don't argue for our sakes to prove a point. We are arguing for your sake. When you say you reject the law of Moses you die. Period. There is no verse you can say to contradict that verse by the least bit.

What did the NT writers have to go off of? Don't tell me they recieved a new doctrine. The very idea of that is unbiblical. What new laws did they say that didn't originate themselves in the Old. What did Paul use to prove to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ? Nothing new happened because of Paul. The New Covenant began at the Cross. Not with Paul.

And let me remind you that Paul wrote those verses you are using to cancel out the very Scriptures he loved and followed all the days of his life and reasoned with and are the very foundation for the New Testament which most of which he wrote.

Naphal
Apr 16th 2008, 01:48 AM
naphal,

We don't argue for our sakes to prove a point. We are arguing for your sake. When you say you reject the law of Moses you die. Period. There is no verse you can say to contradict that verse by the least bit.



Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

This doesn't apply in the new covenant. Paul is using this former example to teach those who remained in the old covenant that there is a far worse punishment than death for those that trod under foot the Son of God and the new covenant.


Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Barnes:



Heb 10:28 -
He that despised Moses’ law - That is, the apostate from the religion of Moses. It does not mean that in all cases the offender against the Law of Moses died without mercy, but only where offences were punishable with death, and probably the apostle had in his eye particularly the case of apostasy from the Jewish religion. The subject of apostasy from the Christian religion is particularly under discussion here, and it was natural to illustrate this by a reference to a similar case under the Law of Moses. The Law in regard to apostates from the Jewish religion was positive. There was no reprieve; Deu_13:6-10.

Brother Mark
Apr 16th 2008, 01:49 AM
What law requires a sacrifice for sin?

How do you know how to fulfill your duties as a priest? Where do you look to find these duties? How do you know what a priest is without the OT?

Naphal
Apr 16th 2008, 01:58 AM
What law requires a sacrifice for sin?

I think they all do. However, Christ died once for all sins. He will not die again. It's fulfilled and done. All the sacrificial laws are accomplished so they are not in effect today.



How do you know how to fulfill your duties as a priest? Where do you look to find these duties? How do you know what a priest is without the OT?

All the proper information would be in the NT for any new covenant priests. The OT would only have what a priest was in those days, which meant you had to be a Levite but today race and tribe is not an issue.

Brother Mark
Apr 16th 2008, 02:01 AM
I think they all do. However, Christ died once for all sins. He will not die again. It's fulfilled and done. All the sacrificial laws are accomplished so they are not in effect today.

Sure they are in the sense that if one doesn't accept the sacrifice for sin, their sin remains. The sacrifice must be accepted. Because they are still in effect, the offering is still in effect. The difference between Jesus and animals is that animals were never able to take away sin but Jesus sacrifice is able to do so.


All the proper information would be in the NT for any new covenant priests. The OT would only have what a priest was in those days, which meant you had to be a Levite but today race and tribe is not an issue.


Really? So the OT pattern of priest is meaningless? The OT pattern for the tabernacle is now meaningless? There is nothing we can glean from them? The NT actually goes very little into the duties of priest.

Naphal
Apr 16th 2008, 02:08 AM
Because they are still in effect, the offering is still in effect.

I don't believe "they are still in effect" specifically because Christ fulfilled the one time sacrifice.



Really? So the OT pattern of priest is meaningless?

Nothing is meaningless.

We simply do not use the old pattern to know of the new. Please tell us who are the NT priests and what their duties are and then show us what the OT priests were and their duties and we'll discuss the differences. I think you'll find much is changed for priests. It might be best in a new thread however.




The NT actually goes very little into the duties of priest.

But it is the right place to know what is required of a NT priest. It is also written we are Kings. Do you believe all are priests, or all are kings and priests or are some of one and some of another?

valleybldr
Apr 16th 2008, 09:21 AM
But it is the right place to know what is required of a NT priest. It is also written we are Kings. Do you believe all are priests, or all are kings and priests or are some of one and some of another? We are being trained for leadership in the Olam Ha-Ba ("the world to come"). Since Torah is the legal code for the Messianic Kingdom that leadership is going to need to know and understand "the Law's" application. If it is not understood and written upon the hearts of those in training then they will be limited in terms of future leadership. todd

Brother Mark
Apr 16th 2008, 11:49 AM
I don't believe "they are still in effect" specifically because Christ fulfilled the one time sacrifice.

If there is no law requiring sacrifice, I don't need Jesus to be my sacrifice.


Nothing is meaningless.It is if it's gone. But, if it still matters, then perhaps it isn't totally dead. What good is it, if it no longer applies in any way to our walk today?


We simply do not use the old pattern to know of the new. Please tell us who are the NT priests and what their duties are and then show us what the OT priests were and their duties and we'll discuss the differences. I think you'll find much is changed for priests. It might be best in a new thread however.The OT priest went into the Holy of Holies. How do the NT priest do that? The OT priest were anointed with inscense. How do the NT priest do that? The OT priest ministered directly to God. How do the NT priest do that? The OT priest offered sacrifices to God. How do the NT priest do that?

The OT was a type and a shadow of the real. We KNOW about the real and can use the pattern in the old to see what God really likes and desires. That's what the book of Hebrews is all about. The spirit of the law as revealed in the OT is still valid today because those same laws are applicable to the spiritual tabernacle. We just need to understand how the shadows work in order to understand the plan of God.

When Paul was developing the NT, where do you think he learned his doctrine from? From the OT! It was all inspired and all useful for doctrine.

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
NASB

Even the levitical law falls under the category of 2 Tim 3:16. It is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, for training.

Paul wrote even stronger about the OT in other passages concerning the reason we have it today.

Rom 15:4
4 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
NASB

We are instructed by the OT.


But it is the right place to know what is required of a NT priest. It is also written we are Kings. Do you believe all are priests, or all are kings and priests or are some of one and some of another?I believe in the priesthood of believers and that we will rule and reign with one Christ Jesus. As priest, we are to minister to God. The OT priest could not wear wool! That is significant. It has meaning. Neither are we to wear wool in our ministry to God. We are not to sweat because of using our flesh to minister. It is all in Spirit as God is looking for those that will minister to him in spirit and truth.

1 Peter 2:5
5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
NASB

Knowing that we are priest we are meant to offer up spiritual sacrifices. The sacrifices in the OT are all meaningful. Some were grain offerings that were salted. The NT and OT combined are key to knowing how to offer a grain offering to God today! Romans 12 speaks of just such an offering. The spirit of the whole sacrificial system is explained in the NT. But it is illustrated in the OT. The illustrations both hide the truth and make it easier for us to understand when we see it.


Kahtar wrote an excellent thread on the priestly duties of the believer. Here it is if you desire to check it out.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=97180&highlight=priests

timmyb
Apr 16th 2008, 12:51 PM
naphal,

I don't know what version of the Bible you use... but mine and two other versions including the King James and NASB says that he who rejects... Moses' law dies... To deny the moral law of God by the Ten Commandments means to deny his sovreignty. All the NT writers had to go off of was the OT. It says if you keep on in your sins after you recieve the Holy Spirit without repentance you no longer have a sacrifice for your sins. What is sin exposed by? The law. I don't care what the NT says they aren't saying anything that the OT doesn't say. Paul mentions the OT writers many times in his epistles to give them their authority and to show the churches he isn't preaching some new doctrine. The NT isn't anything new. It's the OT in it's purist form.

But the discussion isn't the validity of the law. It's how much does it mean to you. Go your own way. I say the law of God is life.

timmyb
Apr 16th 2008, 01:05 PM
Just one question... then what new law is discussed in the Sermon on the Mount? Please say Jesus isn't contradicting everything the Father said in the OT... Because if you say he did then you have a bigger problem than anyone here can fix for you. What didn't Jesus say that was backed up by the OT? Because if that were so then and only then it would be a new thing... if it weren't new then there would be a new moral law thus blatantly contradicting Hebrews 10:26-30

and if your interpretation of that verse is true, then why does Paul refrence the law of Moses all through his epistles not to mention the OT prophets? If it passed away at the cross then there wouldn't have been any point to put them in NT writings then would it?..

timmyb
Apr 16th 2008, 05:33 PM
There is much to be found in the meditation on the judgement and statues of God found in the law if one will search for them.

Brother Mark
Apr 16th 2008, 05:45 PM
There is much to be found in the meditation on the judgement and statues of God found in the law if one will search for them.

We know from the NT that from the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. God's law came from God's heart. The key to understanding the whole thing is to know God was always interested in the spiritual. The physical was just a means to explain the spiritual and to provide a way for the cross of Christ to be worked in us.

1 Cor 15:42-49
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
NASB

The second covenant is spiritual. The first covenant is natural. That is the pattern of God. The first Adam was natural. The second was spiritual. The firstborn Esau was natural. The promise came through Jacob. The firstborn Ishmael was natural. The promise came through Isaac. Not Saul but David.

I could go on and on. The physical is used to explain the spiritual. But the importance is not found in the physical. It is found in the spiritual. So yes, we should meditate upon the old in order to see the new. Should we meditate upon the old and only see the old, then we are stuck in the natural and not the spiritual.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 16th 2008, 05:55 PM
If Yeshua embodies the Spiritual, by what He accomplished, then why didn't He just die a spiritual death instead of subjecting His flesh?
If everything is meant to be taken Spiritual, then why all this physical stuff we see in the bible?

SHalom,
Tanja

Brother Mark
Apr 16th 2008, 06:02 PM
If Yeshua embodies the Spiritual, by what He accomplished, then why didn't He just die a spiritual death instead of subjecting His flesh?
If everything is meant to be taken Spiritual, then why all this physical stuff we see in the bible?

SHalom,
Tanja

For a shadow to reveal the real purpose of what God was doing. It was hidden largely from the earlier prophets, as Peter said.

With man, God has always done the physical first and the spiritual second. Jesus was a living Spirit. But he became man to illustrate exactly who God is. The sins still required a physical sacrifice that was fulfilled in Christ.

David rightly understood the spiritual meaning behind the law when he wrote...

Ps 51:14-17

14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God,
Thou God of my salvation;
Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Thy righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,
That my mouth may declare Thy praise.
16 For Thou dost not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
Thou art not pleased with burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise.
NASB

As did Job when Job said "I know my redeemer liveth".

The physical pointed to the spiritual. It did then and it does now. Why do we have trees? So we can understand the meaning of being planted firmly by the river of life as taught in Psalms 1. Why vines? So we can understand the idea of abiding in Christ as taught in John 15. Why light? So we can understand that only in God can we truly see and understand. All the physical was designed and made with the purpose of revealing the spiritual.

Why a veil? Why was it torn? To show that in order to get into the holy of holies, the flesh of Christ must be torn. Until Christ came, the way to intimacy with God was veiled. I could go on and on...

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 16th 2008, 06:14 PM
Ah, and with the man the shadow disappears or becomes unimportant?
Don't we know by a shadow that there's substance?

Does this mean that with the Spiritual now present God doesn't want anything physical?

Shalom,
Tanja

Brother Mark
Apr 16th 2008, 06:28 PM
Ah, and with the man the shadow disappears or becomes unimportant?
Don't we know by a shadow that there's substance?

Does this mean that with the Spiritual now present God doesn't want anything physical?

Shalom,
Tanja

Take a look at the food laws in the OT. We see where God states them then says "Be ye holy as I am holy". In the NT what does God associate with holiness?

1 Peter 1:13-17

13 Therefore, gird your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, 15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16 because it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy."
NASB

Jesus said he ate the Father's words. Peter tells us here to be careful what we think or to "gird our minds". We are not to eat the unclean words of the enemy!

In other words, once the real came, the shadow, while still valuable, was not needed in the physical world. Hence God inspired the writer of Hebrews to say...

Heb 8:13-9:2

13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
9 Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary. 2 For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place.
NASB

And...

Heb 9:7-10
8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing, 9 which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, 10 since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.
NASB

The old is gone and replaced with the new. The spirit of the law never went away. But the physical is needed no longer other than to illustrate the spirit.

We are holy because of what we eat spiritually. For what we eat spiritually is then regurgitated from our heart and that defiles us. Just as one is defiled from eating the unclean in the OT so one can become defiled by eating wrongly in the spirit.

Heb 12:14-16

14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
NASB

A root of bitterness that defiles can only spring up when the seed of bitterness has been planted i.e. eaten. That is why Jesus said

Matt 15:18-20
18 "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. 19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20 "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."
NASB

What defiles a man comes from his heart. Let us be holy as he is holy and cleanse our hearts! How do we do this?

Rom 12:1-2

12 I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
NASB

It is important what we eat spiritually. If we are to be holy as he is holy, then we must watch what we eat! Let us not eat of the unclean foods.

How many times in the NT is holiness used in connection with food?

mikebr
Apr 16th 2008, 06:34 PM
Under the new covenant the Ten Commandments become promises.

Brother Mark
Apr 16th 2008, 07:31 PM
Grace is a promise of power to overcome. In Christ, we are accepted.

timmyb
Apr 16th 2008, 08:12 PM
Under the new covenant the Ten Commandments become promises.

How does "You shall not kill" become a promise? I don't get what you're saying.. please clarify...

mikebr
Apr 16th 2008, 08:28 PM
How does "You shall not kill" become a promise? I don't get what you're saying.. please clarify...

If I said if you stay away from germs you "shall not get sick" that's not a commandment not to get sick. Its a promise that you won't get sick.

If I am in Christ and He is in me (Gal 2:20) then he promises I won't kill anyone even per Matt 5 with hatred in my heart. God is love, if God is in me then I am love.

timmyb
Apr 16th 2008, 08:48 PM
If I said if you stay away from germs you "shall not get sick" that's not a commandment not to get sick. Its a promise that you won't get sick.

If I am in Christ and He is in me (Gal 2:20) then he promises I won't kill anyone even per Matt 5 with hatred in my heart. God is love, if God is in me then I am love.

Matthew 5 is a clarification of the application of the old law... You have heard it said that you shall not commit murder (OT law) but I say this (what it should have been in the first place) He didn't change the meaning of the law nor did he abolish it. He restored it to what it should have always been. A heart thing. Not outwardly.

See, when the children of Israel were given the law they responded "We will DO it." and they have been concerned with keeping the law that they missed the reason it was given. The law was given for the purpose of showing an unholy people just how holy God was. They responded wrong. They never asked why! That's why only a select few really got it. David meditated on the law while the people tried to keep it! Who had the better response? The People or David?

The law was never given to us for the sole purpose of keeping it. It was for the purpose of us knowing who God is.

mikebr
Apr 16th 2008, 08:57 PM
Matthew 5 is a clarification of the application of the old law... You have heard it said that you shall not commit murder (OT law) but I say this (what it should have been in the first place) He didn't change the meaning of the law nor did he abolish it. He restored it to what it should have always been. A heart thing. Not outwardly.

See, when the children of Israel were given the law they responded "We will DO it." and they have been concerned with keeping the law that they missed the reason it was given. The law was given for the purpose of showing an unholy people just how holy God was. They responded wrong. They never asked why! That's why only a select few really got it. David meditated on the law while the people tried to keep it! Who had the better response? The People or David?

The law was never given to us for the sole purpose of keeping it. It was for the purpose of us knowing who God is.

We agree Timmyb.:D

timmyb
Apr 16th 2008, 08:59 PM
We agree Timmyb.:D

my heart is glad to hear that... :bounce::lol::bounce::lol::bounce::lol:

drew
Apr 16th 2008, 09:01 PM
I think that physical - spiritual model is not even a Scriptural model to begin with.

I suggest that this is a model we have adopted from the Greek world-view and we improperly apply it to Scriptures that were written in the Hebrew culture.

I suggest that Paul and other NT writers intended us to draw a "old-nature" - "new-nature" distinction in many of the cases where we have instead applied a "physical - spiritual" distinction.

We know from 1 Corinthians 15 that Paul used the term "spiritual" to refer to something that was "physical" - the resurrection body. Paul, I suggest, would not say that "spiritual" means non-physical - at least in the sense that a spiritual body is extended in space and can be touched. Jesus had a "spiritual" body and it was distinctly physical.

I am not saying that a "spiritual" body is the same kind of physical body as the ones we have now.

timmyb
Apr 16th 2008, 09:04 PM
I think that physical - spiritual model is not even a Scriptural model to begin with.

I suggest that this is a model we have adopted from the Greek world-view and we improperly apply it to Scriptures that were written in the Hebrew culture.

I suggest that Paul and other NT writers intended us to draw a "old-nature" - "new-nature" distinction in many of the cases where we have instead applied a "physical - spiritual" distinction.

We know from 1 Corinthians 15 that Paul used the term "spiritual" to refer to something that was "physical" - the resurrection body. Paul, I suggest, would not say that "spiritual" means non-physical - at least in the sense that a spiritual body is extended in space and can be touched. Jesus had a "spiritual" body and it was distinctly physical.

I am not saying that a "spiritual" body is the same kind of physical body as the ones we have now.

I am a little dense here... but I really don't see where this fits in to our original discussion...

Brother Mark
Apr 16th 2008, 09:07 PM
I think that physical - spiritual model is not even a Scriptural model to begin with.

I suggest that this is a model we have adopted from the Greek world-view and we improperly apply it to Scriptures that were written in the Hebrew culture.

I suggest that Paul and other NT writers intended us to draw a "old-nature" - "new-nature" distinction in many of the cases where we have instead applied a "physical - spiritual" distinction.

We know from 1 Corinthians 15 that Paul used the term "spiritual" to refer to something that was "physical" - the resurrection body. Paul, I suggest, would not say that "spiritual" means non-physical - at least in the sense that a spiritual body is extended in space and can be touched. Jesus had a "spiritual" body and it was distinctly physical.

I am not saying that a "spiritual" body is the same kind of physical body as the ones we have now.

Use temporal vs spiritual. Those are better words to describe it anyway. But the truth still stands. Eating pork doesn't make one unholy or undefiled. Yet, the command to be holy can be seen all through the NT and not associated with food. But in the OT, it is associated with food. The difference? Jesus taught us about spiritual food and that is the key. "The words I speak to you are spiritual and they are life".

Naphal
Apr 16th 2008, 10:34 PM
If there is no law requiring sacrifice, I don't need Jesus to be my sacrifice.

The law requiring this is fulfilled meaning it's done. There is no law existing after Christ died as that sacrifice.



The OT priest went into the Holy of Holies. How do the NT priest do that?


Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Hebrews 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Hebrews 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.


Hebrews 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Hebrews 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
Hebrews 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
Hebrews 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
Hebrews 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Hebrews 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.


The OT priest were anointed with inscense. How do the NT priest do that?

They don't.



The OT priest ministered directly to God. How do the NT priest do that?

Via the Holy spirit.


The OT priest offered sacrifices to God. How do the NT priest do that?



Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Hebrews 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me) to do thy will, O God.
Hebrews 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;



Hebrews 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
Hebrews 13:16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.


1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

These are the only sacrifices we can offer to God in the nt. God takes no pleasure in any other type of sacrifice.


Hebrews 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Naphal
Apr 16th 2008, 10:51 PM
naphal,

I don't know what version of the Bible you use... but mine and two other versions including the King James and NASB says that he who rejects... Moses' law dies...

It doesn't say rejects, it says despised, past tense. It is not in effect now under the NT. Christians are not under the law of the OT.


Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.




All the NT writers had to go off of was the OT.

Did you forget they had the teachings of Christ as well as their own revelations?



I don't care what the NT says they aren't saying anything that the OT doesn't say.

That's not true.


Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

The new covenant is a BETTER covenant, established upon BETTER promises because the first covenant was faulty. Christ's ministry was a more excellent one because of this.



Paul mentions the OT writers many times in his epistles to give them their authority and to show the churches he isn't preaching some new doctrine. The NT isn't anything new. It's the OT in it's purist form.

That's not what scripture says. The NT is not faulty like the first and is built upon better promises.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

A new covenant not according to the original.


Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The concept of the old covenant being added to and made better is simply incorrect. It was faulty and "made old" by God to the effect that it has "decayed" and in Paul's time it was "ready to vanish away" which by today it has. Amen!


But the discussion isn't the validity of the law. It's how much does it mean to you. Go your own way. I say the law of God is life.


Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

You don't accept that the law was changed but it was.

You believe the OT law is life but NT scripture says it is death and bondage.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


Do you not want to be delivered from the law? Do you want to serve in the oldness of the letter?

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Galatians 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

"Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?"

timmyb
Apr 16th 2008, 11:41 PM
It doesn't say rejects, it says despised, past tense. It is not in effect now under the NT. Christians are not under the law of the OT. [\quote]

that's not what my bible says... what version do you use? I copy/paste from Bible Gateway from the NKJV... the person who goes on sinning no longer has a sacrifice meaning the moral law still has effect


[quote]Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.[\quote]

the spirit and the law do not contradict each other... God doesn't contradict itself





[quote]Did you forget they had the teachings of Christ as well as their own revelations? [\quote]

if the law is so restrictive then go your own way... I like to meditate on the law... do you read the Psalms? It's all about the joys found in the law and judgements of God... good stuff




[quote]That's not true.


Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

The new covenant is a BETTER covenant, established upon BETTER promises because the first covenant was faulty. Christ's ministry was a more excellent one because of this.




That's not what scripture says. The NT is not faulty like the first and is built upon better promises.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

A new covenant not according to the original.


Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The concept of the old covenant being added to and made better is simply incorrect. It was faulty and "made old" by God to the effect that it has "decayed" and in Paul's time it was "ready to vanish away" which by today it has. Amen![\quote]

cookies for you Naphal.. if you hate the law that much... then more power to you




[quote]Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

You don't accept that the law was changed but it was.

You believe the OT law is life but NT scripture says it is death and bondage.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


Do you not want to be delivered from the law? Do you want to serve in the oldness of the letter?

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Galatians 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

"Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?"

the moral law has not changed... i'm not concerned about sacrificial and ordinances.. he fulfilled all the law and the prophets... but he extended the moral law to what it originally was intended to be...

how do you define holiness without the Moral Law of Moses... The apostles didn't just come up with their own rules... but had the law of Moses and knew how much of it should still remain... Sin is still defined by the law...

But this thread topic wasn't the practical application of the law... What I wanted to know was did anybody see God in the law... I don't know why I engaged and allow myself to get off topic... The fact is... if you don't like the law of God because you aren't under the law then it's ok, I have nothing against you we just disagree and guess what? How many times does that happen in a day? (rhetorical question) I happen to find a jewel in the law... I see my God behind the law and I want to meditate on it day and night for it is truly my delight and it's not my job to make anyone else believe the way I do.

Naphal, I am sorry for letting in a debating spirit and allowing myself to be contentious. Forgive me.

Blessings abundant!

Naphal
Apr 17th 2008, 02:42 AM
[quote=Naphal;1607944]It doesn't say rejects, it says despised, past tense. It is not in effect now under the NT. Christians are not under the law of the OT.

that's not what my bible says... what version do you use? I copy/paste from Bible Gateway from the NKJV... the person who goes on sinning no longer has a sacrifice meaning the moral law still has effect


Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law

the spirit and the law do not contradict each other... God doesn't contradict itself





Did you forget they had the teachings of Christ as well as their own revelations?

if the law is so restrictive then go your own way... I like to meditate on the law... do you read the Psalms? It's all about the joys found in the law and judgements of God... good stuff




That's not true.


Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

The new covenant is a BETTER covenant, established upon BETTER promises because the first covenant was faulty. Christ's ministry was a more excellent one because of this.




That's not what scripture says. The NT is not faulty like the first and is built upon better promises.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

A new covenant not according to the original.


Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The concept of the old covenant being added to and made better is simply incorrect. It was faulty and "made old" by God to the effect that it has "decayed" and in Paul's time it was "ready to vanish away" which by today it has. Amen![\quote]

cookies for you Naphal.. if you hate the law that much... then more power to you






the moral law has not changed... i'm not concerned about sacrificial and ordinances.. he fulfilled all the law and the prophets... but he extended the moral law to what it originally was intended to be...

how do you define holiness without the Moral Law of Moses... The apostles didn't just come up with their own rules... but had the law of Moses and knew how much of it should still remain... Sin is still defined by the law...

But this thread topic wasn't the practical application of the law... What I wanted to know was did anybody see God in the law... I don't know why I engaged and allow myself to get off topic... The fact is... if you don't like the law of God because you aren't under the law then it's ok, I have nothing against you we just disagree and guess what? How many times does that happen in a day? (rhetorical question) I happen to find a jewel in the law... I see my God behind the law and I want to meditate on it day and night for it is truly my delight and it's not my job to make anyone else believe the way I do.

Naphal, I am sorry for letting in a debating spirit and allowing myself to be contentious. Forgive me.

Blessings abundant!

I do think you took this issue a bit too emotionally but it's good to be hot rather than lukewarm. Just know that I only want you to know the truth about the law and about the old covenant. I'll just leave you with this one verse so you can meditate on it. If you want me to address the things you said above let me know otherwise I will leave it at this:

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Brother Mark
Apr 17th 2008, 04:53 AM
The law requiring this is fulfilled meaning it's done. There is no law existing after Christ died as that sacrifice.

Without a law requiring it, the sacrifice is meaningless. The law still demands that I have a sin offering or that I go to hell. If an offering is not made for my sin, my sin remains.


Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Hebrews 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Hebrews 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.


Hebrews 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Hebrews 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
Hebrews 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
Hebrews 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
Hebrews 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Hebrews 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

And where did the writer of Hebrews get all that? Right. From the OT law. ;)



They don't.

Oh, but they do! We just need to see how. All the priestly duties of the OT pointed to the NT truth. Each spiritual duty cast a physical shadow that was a duty listed in the OT. It is important that we be anointed with the proper anointing and that we offer the right incense.



Via the Holy spirit.

Sure. But flesh that out a little bit in practical terms for us.


Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Hebrews 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me) to do thy will, O God.
Hebrews 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;



Hebrews 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
Hebrews 13:16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.


1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

These are the only sacrifices we can offer to God in the nt. God takes no pleasure in any other type of sacrifice.


Hebrews 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.


Now you're getting somewhere. Each OT sacrifice was meaningful and carries a spiritual meaning over into the NT. As we read the OT law, we can see in greater detail and illustration exactly what Jesus meant when he penned the NT.

Naphal
Apr 17th 2008, 05:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphal http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1607941#post1607941)
The law requiring this is fulfilled meaning it's done. There is no law existing after Christ died as that sacrifice.

Without a law requiring it, the sacrifice is meaningless. The law still demands that I have a sin offering or that I go to hell. If an offering is not made for my sin, my sin remains.

Which is why I said, "The law requiring this is fulfilled meaning it's done." There was a law requiring it but no longer is there a law which requires it since it has been completed.







Quote:
Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Hebrews 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Hebrews 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.


Hebrews 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Hebrews 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
Hebrews 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
Hebrews 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
Hebrews 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Hebrews 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
And where did the writer of Hebrews get all that? Right. From the OT law. ;)


That's the origin but the completion is not from OT law.






Quote:
They don't.
Oh, but they do! We just need to see how. All the priestly duties of the OT pointed to the NT truth. Each spiritual duty cast a physical shadow that was a duty listed in the OT. It is important that we be anointed with the proper anointing and that we offer the right incense.


We'll have to disagree on that one then.








Quote:
Via the Holy spirit.
Sure. But flesh that out a little bit in practical terms for us.


Praying in the HS, listening to the guidance of the HS...that's the best I can explain it.



Now you're getting somewhere. Each OT sacrifice was meaningful and carries a spiritual meaning over into the NT.

Each one? What of burnt sacrifices? How are they carried over into the NT?

Here is but one of many examples.


Leviticus 1:14 And if the burnt sacrifice for his offering to the LORD be of fowls, then he shall bring his offering of turtledoves, or of young pigeons.
Leviticus 1:15 And the priest shall bring it unto the altar, and wring off his head, and burn it on the altar; and the blood thereof shall be wrung out at the side of the altar:
Leviticus 1:16 And he shall pluck away his crop with his feathers, and cast it beside the altar on the east part, by the place of the ashes:
Leviticus 1:17 And he shall cleave it with the wings thereof, but shall not divide it asunder: and the priest shall burn it upon the altar, upon the wood that is upon the fire: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.

How is wringing off the head of a fowl and burning it represented in the NT?

Brother Mark
Apr 17th 2008, 11:53 AM
Which is why I said, "The law requiring this is fulfilled meaning it's done." There was a law requiring it but no longer is there a law which requires it since it has been completed.

Completed and no longer required are two different things. The sacrifice is still needed because the law still stands. It's just been fulfilled and I can now take advantage of the sacrificial law that says a sin sacrifice must be made for my sins. If the law is gone, I would have no need to accept Christ as my savior as no sin sacrifice would be needed for me. I am under this law until I come to Christ.


That's the origin but the completion is not from OT law. Never argued that. But the point remains. Hebrews was written AFTER Christ died. And he got all that stuff from the OT. Everything he saw the shadows in the OT and how the spiritual law was still standing. He also saw the biggest difference between the new and the old covenants was "Christ in you".


We'll have to disagree on that one then.Thats too bad. Because many priestly duties can be seen in the NT as well. We just have to know how to look for them to see how the correlate to the OT priestly duties.


Praying in the HS, listening to the guidance of the HS...that's the best I can explain it. Very vague. Can you give me a real life example?


Each one? What of burnt sacrifices? How are they carried over into the NT?Well, when Jesus baptizes you with fire, what's he doing?


Here is but one of many examples.

Leviticus 1:14 And if the burnt sacrifice for his offering to the LORD be of fowls, then he shall bring his offering of turtledoves, or of young pigeons.
Leviticus 1:15 And the priest shall bring it unto the altar, and wring off his head, and burn it on the altar; and the blood thereof shall be wrung out at the side of the altar:
Leviticus 1:16 And he shall pluck away his crop with his feathers, and cast it beside the altar on the east part, by the place of the ashes:
Leviticus 1:17 And he shall cleave it with the wings thereof, but shall not divide it asunder: and the priest shall burn it upon the altar, upon the wood that is upon the fire: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.

How is wringing off the head of a fowl and burning it represented in the NT?Burnt offerings are often how we offer ourselves unto God. Since we are offering ourselves unto God, we no longer are the head. But Christ himself is our head. We must surrender completely to him so that he becomes the Head and we are the body. Our head must be severed. That's my first thought. But I would need to study it out first. God gives a key. He will explain it. One thing that makes scripture so profound, it keeps going and going and going and going. There's always something new to learn from it!

We do know this concerning the scripture you quoted...

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
NASB

It is profitable for our study and it can equip us for good work!!!

Rom 15:4-5
4 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
NASB

It was written to give us hope and encouragement.

1 Cor 10:6
6 Now these things happened as examples for us, that we should not crave evil things, as they also craved.
NASB

And what Israel went through was given as an example to us.

timmyb
Apr 17th 2008, 04:32 PM
[quote=timmyb;1607966]

I do think you took this issue a bit too emotionally but it's good to be hot rather than lukewarm. Just know that I only want you to know the truth about the law and about the old covenant. I'll just leave you with this one verse so you can meditate on it. If you want me to address the things you said above let me know otherwise I will leave it at this:

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


I don't give a rip about the sacrificial law... i like the ones that reflect a change in man's behavior that produces the character of Christ...

I want to find the God that David did in the law. That's my aim. I'm not trying to say that a person is under the law. We are not under the law but under grace... and grace is a helper to keep the law. We still have to keep the moral law of the Old Testament that is defined by the Sermon on the Mount... Jesus did fulfill the moral law in that he kept it but he extended the meaning of the moral law to us in Matthew 5-7 He didn't say anything new... he didn't tell them to stop doing anything that was by the law, but he restored the OT law to what it should had been in the first place.

The Sermon on the Mount established the law. Paul says in Romans that we don't

Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

He is talking about the moral law in this passage becasue Romans 3 is all about sin. Sin defined by the moral law of Moses. It's our faith that establishes the law of God. (Notice how the chapter is riddled with OT verses too)

Brother Mark
Apr 17th 2008, 04:52 PM
I want to find the God that David did in the law. That's my aim.

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!!!!


Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

He is talking about the moral law in this passage becasue Romans 3 is all about sin. Sin defined by the moral law of Moses. It's our faith that establishes the law of God. (Notice how the chapter is riddled with OT verses too)Yes indeed! But I would say even the ceremonial law had moral components to it. Not in the sense of "that's wrong to do" as the 10 commandments suggested. But in the sense of "this is good to do". For instance, ...

Arron, the high priest, was told to anoint himself with incense. Yet, he was warned about not using the oil as a perfume to attract others to himself. The lesson? We should never use the spiritual anointing of God as a means to attract others to ourself. The Holy Spirit anointing is to point to Christ, not to us.

Even the ceremonial law can reveal to us things about God and his character and ministry. Yet, we do not keep that in the letter. But rather in the spirit!

timmyb
Apr 17th 2008, 04:56 PM
good parallel mark...

brakelite
Apr 18th 2008, 01:28 AM
Paul says the law is dead and only because of this are we able to remarry, to Christ. That equals being voided.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Are you delivered from the law brakelite?
No, I am not free from the law, but am certainly free from it's condemnation.
Naphal, nowhere in scripture does it say that the law is dead. Nowhere. What died was me. The old nature, the fleshly carnal nature, which had me imprisoned in a life of sin, and to which the law rightfully and justly passed condemnation, died in Christ on the cross at calvary.
I then became dead to the law and I am no longer under it's condemnation. I can lawfully now marry a new husband. Christ. And not only did I die with Christ, but I was also raised with Him when I was baptised. So now I have a new life, a new relationship and marriage with My Redeemer. This new marriage, as I abide in My new Husband, is to bear fruit to God. Fruits of righteousness. Does this new relationship allow me now to commit adultery? Does this new relationship allow me now to worship another? Does this new marriage allow me to marry another? No, therefore the law still applies.





Christ never commanded to keep the Sabbath so the NT commandments from Christ do not include the Sabbath. We are to keep the new commandments not the old since those are dead now.

Yes, He did command us to keep the Sabbath. Not only did the law not die as you seem so determined to claim, (but then contradict when you rightfully maintain that stealing is still a sin), the law was not changed either.
After all, what is law? Law is an expression of the will, the nature, and the character of the governing power. Any change in the law, must mean a change in the governing power. One sees this all the time in worldly politics. The govt. changes, and the laws inevitably follow. Thus law derives from personality, and defines and reveals that personality.
It is thus also with God.But He never changes.
As the law of God reveals His character, it is thus a finite expression of the infinite. A glimpse into the mind of God. God's law is the foundation of His government. As God is perfect, so His law is perfect. As God will live forever, so also will His law. Because God cannot change, the law cannot change either. If you desire to change the law, then you must change God. This is the essence of antichrist when Daniel says of him, that "he thinks to change times and laws". This can only apply to the law of God, as human laws are changed daily with no eternal consequence to the spriritual realm. But change God's laws, or at least attempt to do so, and you are in big trouble.

It was man who changed the weekly observance of the Sabbath from the 7th day of the week to the 1st day. I ask, from whence did man get this authority to seek to change and alter a law of the Most High?

Naphal
Apr 18th 2008, 01:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphal http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1608133#post1608133)
Which is why I said, "The law requiring this is fulfilled meaning it's done." There was a law requiring it but no longer is there a law which requires it since it has been completed.

Completed and no longer required are two different things. The sacrifice is still needed because the law still stands.

We'll have to disagree there because I don't believe the law still stands because it has been fulfilled. It's a completed sacrifice not one that constantly needs to be re-done.

4137
4137 pleroo {play-ro'-o}
from 4134; TDNT - 6:286,867; v
AV - fulfil 51, fill 19, be full 7, complete 2, end 2, misc 9; 90
1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
1a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
1a1) I abound, I am liberally supplied
2) to render full, i.e. to complete
2a) to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to
full measure, fill to the brim
2b) to consummate: a number
2b1) to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
2b2) to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out,
(some undertaking)
2c) to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
2c1) of matters of duty: to perform, execute
2c2) of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass,
ratify, accomplish
2c3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the
law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises
(given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment





It's just been fulfilled and I can now take advantage of the sacrificial law that says a sin sacrifice must be made for my sins. If the law is gone, I would have no need to accept Christ as my savior as no sin sacrifice would be needed for me. I am under this law until I come to Christ.

That's your choice but are you not already come to Christ and Christ to you? Scripture says we are not under the law:

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Galatians 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.





Quote:
We'll have to disagree on that one then.
Thats too bad. Because many priestly duties can be seen in the NT as well. We just have to know how to look for them to see how the correlate to the OT priestly duties.


It is written the priesthood changed as well as the law changed. It would be a mistake to go by the examples that were changed. That is why I said a NT priest should take instruction from the NT. The OT would serve mainly as a history lesson but would not be right to imitate.





Quote:
Each one? What of burnt sacrifices? How are they carried over into the NT?
Well, when Jesus baptizes you with fire, what's he doing?


You believe that is a burnt sacrifice? That we are burned up as a sacrifice? I don't agree with that.






Burnt offerings are often how we offer ourselves unto God.

The problem with that idea is that God no longer wants burnt offerings.


Hebrews 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.


Those things are taken away now and are not part of the second or new covenant.







Since we are offering ourselves unto God, we no longer are the head. But Christ himself is our head. We must surrender completely to him so that he becomes the Head and we are the body. Our head must be severed. That's my first thought. But I would need to study it out first.

That's an interesting take on it...I don't really agree though :)


Mark 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.


I really don't think there is a NT parallel to a burnt offering of a birds head and that God does not take any pleasure in it.




2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
NASB

It is profitable for our study and it can equip us for good work!!!

Rom 15:4-5
4 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
NASB

It was written to give us hope and encouragement.

Yes and we should also rightly divide the scriptures which means to understand them properly and in context:


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.




1 Cor 10:6
6 Now these things happened as examples for us, that we should not crave evil things, as they also craved.
NASB

And what Israel went through was given as an example to us.

Right. Learn from the mistakes of others so you do not repeat them yourself.

Like I said, it isn't that the OT has no value or is meaningless but we do have to carefully learn from it all the while being mindful of the new and what is valid today and what isn't from the old. There are some that use the old to over ride and trump the new which I believe is error.

Brother Mark
Apr 18th 2008, 01:36 AM
God didn't take any pleasure in the sacrifices of the OT either according to Psalms 51. ;)

Of course I am no longer under the law as a believer. An unbeliever though, he is under the law. It leads him to Christ.

Naphal
Apr 18th 2008, 01:46 AM
[quote=Naphal;1608035]


I don't give a rip about the sacrificial law...


Uh....ok.

However, the change in the law wasn't simply that one part. The law itself was changed.



I want to find the God that David did in the law. That's my aim. I'm not trying to say that a person is under the law. We are not under the law but under grace... and grace is a helper to keep the law. We still have to keep the moral law of the Old Testament that is defined by the Sermon on the Mount... Jesus did fulfill the moral law in that he kept it but he extended the meaning of the moral law to us in Matthew 5-7 He didn't say anything new... he didn't tell them to stop doing anything that was by the law, but he restored the OT law to what it should had been in the first place.

I disagree. The old law was called a schoolmaster that had us in bondage. Everything you are saying is what Paul spoke against. I just don't think I can explain it any better than I have or convince you.

The law was not restored to what it originally been. It was taken away so a new one could come in it's place:



Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Hebrews 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Hebrews 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Hebrews 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me) to do thy will, O God.
Hebrews 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

This is why we are to be dead to the law. Yes, it's still in our OT bibles but we must be dead to it:

Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Romans 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.




The Sermon on the Mount established the law. Paul says in Romans that we don't

Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:31



The law that we establish is not the old law that we are to be dead to, freed from and not under the power of. We establish the NT law which is different.

How else can you explain that we are to establish the law and be dead to the law? Obviously it is two laws being addressed. One old and one new.

Naphal
Apr 18th 2008, 01:58 AM
No, I am not free from the law, but am certainly free from it's condemnation.

I asked if you were delivered from the law as the scripture says we are.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

I am delivered from the law. Are you?



Naphal, nowhere in scripture does it say that the law is dead. Nowhere.


It's says it in that verse. It also explains it in the example just before that about a woman married to a man. The man represents the law and when he died she was free to remarry. Lets read it again:



Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Once he dies she is free. God's people once were married to the law but that law had to die in order for them to be free, to be delivered from that law.


Romans 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Death of that law is the only way to be set free and remarry.


Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

We have to be dead to the law in order to marry Christ. If we are not, then we are married to the law and we cannot receive the promises of the new covenant.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Here he clearly says that the law which held us is dead, not us.

Paul says Christians are delivered from the law, because the old covenant law is dead just like the husband is dead in the example he gave.




What died was me. The old nature, the fleshly carnal nature, which had me imprisoned in a life of sin, and to which the law rightfully and justly passed condemnation, died in Christ on the cross at calvary.

Amen but in this portion of scripture the subject is the death of the law not our old natures dying.




I then became dead to the law and I am no longer under it's condemnation.

Both concepts are scriptural. To die to the law as in a part of us dying AND the concept of the old law being dead itself which releases us to marry anew.




Yes, He did command us to keep the Sabbath.

Where? He himself didn't keep it so I find it odd that you believe he commanded us to.



Not only did the law not die as you seem so determined to claim, (but then contradict when you rightfully maintain that stealing is still a sin), the law was not changed either.

We are not left without law! The old died and a new was given.



It was man who changed the weekly observance of the Sabbath from the 7th day of the week to the 1st day. I ask, from whence did man get this authority to seek to change and alter a law of the Most High?


I don't know that Sundays were ever called the Sabbath. I think man followed Christ's example and no longer observe the Sabbath as it had been done in the OT. I understand you believe Christ observed it but I do not.

Naphal
Apr 18th 2008, 03:01 AM
God didn't take any pleasure in the sacrifices of the OT either according to Psalms 51. ;)

Of course I am no longer under the law as a believer. An unbeliever though, he is under the law. It leads him to Christ.

Unbelievers that know of the law. Not all of them do.


Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

brakelite
Apr 18th 2008, 07:37 AM
I asked if you were delivered from the law as the scripture says we are.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

I am delivered from the law. Are you?


I, as a Christian am still required to be honest. Stealing is as much a sin for me as a Christian as it is for a non-believer, perhaps even more so because I know the truth. Therefore I am still obliged to keep the commandments. I am not free from my obligations, but because Jesus died and me in Him, and He has given me His Spirit which empowers me to obey, I am no longer under the condemnation of the law as a sinner.




It's says it in that verse. It also explains it in the example just before that about a woman married to a man. The man represents the law and when he died she was free to remarry. Lets read it again:



Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Once he dies she is free. God's people once were married to the law but that law had to die in order for them to be free, to be delivered from that law.


Romans 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Death of that law is the only way to be set free and remarry.

Wrong, if my wife dies I may remarry, but the law remains.


Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

We have to be dead to the law in order to marry Christ. If we are not, then we are married to the law and we cannot receive the promises of the new covenant.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Here he clearly says that the law which held us is dead, not us.

Let me paraphrase: But now we are delivered from the law which held us, but now we are dead we should serve in newness of spirit, not in the oldness of the letter.


Paul says Christians are delivered from the law, because the old covenant law is dead just like the husband is dead in the example he gave.



Remove the chapter numbers and verse numbers and read it as it appeared in the original text and you will find that Rom 7 is a continuation and a further explanation of Rom 6. The whole point of Pauls discussion is to convince the Roman Christians that they can and should live lives free from sin.

Rom 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


Seven times it repeats in the above verses that it is the old man, the old nature, that is dead in Christ.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Again here it says 'dead to sin'. What is dead? Us.

4 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


And here we have precicely what chapter 7 goes on to explain with the woman and her husband. What does it mean, to be under the law? When Jesus walked this earth, was He under the law? No, He was not. Why? Because He obeyed it in every respect. (including the 4th commandment). Jesus lived a completely sinless life. Because the law could not condemn Him in any way, Jesus was thus not 'under' the law. He was however obedient to the law. We have sinned, each one of us. Therefore we are under the law. The law condemns us as sinners, and except we die and be born again in Christ, sin will continue to have dominion over us. However, if we be dead in Christ, we are free from sin, and the law no longer condemns us and we are no longer 'under the law'. We are under grace.
The woman when married to her first husband was bound by the law regarding marriage. The husband is representative of the old man. When he died, the woman was free from the law re marriage and she was then able to marry Christ. In marrying Christ the law no longer had power over her to condemn. But the law still lived, and applies still to the marriage between the woman and Jesus.
That is why James accused those Christians of adultery when they became worldly and loved the things of the world ahead of Christ.



Where? He himself didn't keep it so I find it odd that you believe he commanded us to.

Lu 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Here the Bible says that it was Jesus' custom to enter the synagogue on the Sabbath.
Jesus kept the 4th commandment. If He didn't, the law would have condemned Him as a sinner, for not even you would dare claim that the law died before calvary, would you? If indeed the law died at all that is.

It is preposterous to try and claim that Jesus did not observe the Sabbath.
It was Jesus Who instituted the day at creation. It was Jesus Who provided manna only on 6 days at least 3 months before Sinai. It was Jesus Who spoke the commandment from Sinai amid thunder and lightning and it was Jesus Who wrote it on the stone tablet with His own finger. It was also Jesus Who required strict observance throughout Jewish history, and it was the desecration of the Sabbath which brought down God's judgements more than any other sin.And the Word made flesh then dishonored and annulled the only portion of the Decalogue which clearly identifies the Author?
Did you realise that the other nine commandments could belong to any pagan system on the planet? That by themselves, man, through experience, would have come up with a fairly similar system without God's help? But the 4th commandment is different. It is the one commandment that directly identifies the Lord as Creator, and thus justifies why we should worship and obey Him and no other. Without the 4th commandment, the god the other nine refer to could be my pet cat. It is used by God as a test.
Ex 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.


When some of the people went out on the Sabbath (remember, this is before Sinai) to gather manna,, the Lord had this to say,

28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?


When the people disobeyed God re the Sabbath, God considered it a rebellious act against the whole law. James reiterates the same thought when he said Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Notice also that not only did Jesus keep the Sabbath, but fully expected His disciples to be continuing the custom after He left.

Math 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Naphal
Apr 18th 2008, 08:34 AM
Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


Let me paraphrase: But now we are delivered from the law which held us, but now we are dead we should serve in newness of spirit, not in the oldness of the letter.

The problem with that paraphrase is that it doesn't match what is said. It doesn't address us as the dead but the law being dead which had held us. We are delivered from the law in the same way the wife was delivered from the law of her husband. He died so did the law of her belonging to him.






Seven times it repeats in the above verses that it is the old man, the old nature, that is dead in Christ.

Yes but I believe Paul is speaking of a new subject when he is talking about the death of the old law which is represented as a husband we were married to. The only way we could have our new husband Christ is if the old husband, the old law, died.



And here we have precicely what chapter 7 goes on to explain with the woman and her husband. What does it mean, to be under the law? When Jesus walked this earth, was He under the law? No, He was not. Why? Because He obeyed it in every respect. (including the 4th commandment).

We disagree on that because I know he did not obey the 4th commandment yet was blameless for it as he explained and gave other examples to illustrate this point.



Jesus lived a completely sinless life. Because the law could not condemn Him in any way, Jesus was thus not 'under' the law. He was however obedient to the law.

That means he was under the law. Christ set us free from that through grace but he was under the law in his life yet he was showing how the law would change. Hebrews 7:12




We have sinned, each one of us. Therefore we are under the law.


I can't agree with the last part of that.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.




The woman when married to her first husband was bound by the law regarding marriage. The husband is representative of the old man. When he died, the woman was free from the law re marriage and she was then able to marry Christ. In marrying Christ the law no longer had power over her to condemn. But the law still lived, and applies still to the marriage between the woman and Jesus.

It was not the same old law as had held her captive before. As I have said before, there is law in the NT but it isn't the old law of the old covenant.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphal http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1608909#post1608909)
Where? He himself didn't keep it so I find it odd that you believe he commanded us to.

Lu 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Here the Bible says that it was Jesus' custom to enter the synagogue on the Sabbath.
Jesus kept the 4th commandment. If He didn't, the law would have condemned Him as a sinner, for not even you would dare claim that the law died before calvary, would you?


Just because he went to a synagogue doesn't mean he kept the Sabbath. The OT law died when Christ did but he did teach how the new would be different from the old. He worked on the Sabbath and was accused of doing wrong and in his defense he used example of others that broke the Sabbath, or other things that were wrong according to the law, but because it was for a higher moral purpose it superceded the letter of the law and left the persons blameless. Technically they broke the law but it was excused for them and not held against them.





It is preposterous to try and claim that Jesus did not observe the Sabbath.

Likewise I feel the same about claims that he did. He was the Lord of the Sabbath, not that the Sabbath was Lord over him. It is through his examples that Christianity today keeps the Sabbath as Christ not as a day of the week any longer. That is one of the oldest and longest standing traditions of Christianity.



It was Jesus Who instituted the day at creation.

Yes but it was a shadow of what was to come.


Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Colossians 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.






It was Jesus Who provided manna only on 6 days at least 3 months before Sinai. It was Jesus Who spoke the commandment from Sinai amid thunder and lightning and it was Jesus Who wrote it on the stone tablet with His own finger. It was also Jesus Who required strict observance throughout Jewish history, and it was the desecration of the Sabbath which brought down God's judgements more than any other sin.And the Word made flesh then dishonored and annulled the only portion of the Decalogue which clearly identifies the Author?
Did you realise that the other nine commandments could belong to any pagan system on the planet? That by themselves, man, through experience, would have come up with a fairly similar system without God's help? But the 4th commandment is different. It is the one commandment that directly identifies the Lord as Creator, and thus justifies why we should worship and obey Him and no other. Without the 4th commandment, the god the other nine refer to could be my pet cat. It is used by God as a test.



And all that is wonderful for that time but even the Sabbath was meant to be fulfilled into something even greater and grander. When we keep Christ as our Sabbath we elevate the concept of the Sabbath and rest to it's intended potential. The keeping of the literal day of the week Sabbath was meant only to point to Christ, as did most things.



James reiterates the same thought when he said Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


James isn't speaking of the old covenant laws but the law as given from Christ for the new covenant IMO. This is why Christ left out keeping the Saturday Sabbath when asked what commandments were needed for eternal life. And he also added something if a person wanted to be perfect, sell all their possessions, but he did not include the Sabbath because the Sabbath would become something different than it had been.



Notice also that not only did Jesus keep the Sabbath, but fully expected His disciples to be continuing the custom after He left.

Math 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

This is hardly a promotion to keep the Sabbath but an example of how the Sabbath would prevent escape to those that were bound to it's rules.


Actually Jesus is mocking those would would be spiritually impregnated by false doctrines:


Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:


Because they would be unable to leave since there were rules against traveling very far on the Sabbath, and of course travel in winter was very difficult in those days. He is saying those who are pregnant would not be able to escape. Those like his disciples would have heeding the warnings sooner and wouldn't have been caught in this type of situation.

Naphal
Apr 18th 2008, 08:51 AM
When Jesus walked this earth, was He under the law? No, He was not.


Are you sure?


Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Galatians 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

brakelite
Apr 18th 2008, 09:26 AM
Quote: Just because he went to a synagogue doesn't mean he kept the Sabbath. The OT law died when Christ did but he did teach how the new would be different from the old. He worked on the Sabbath and was accused of doing wrong and in his defense he used example of others that broke the Sabbath, or other things that were wrong according to the law, but because it was for a higher moral purpose it superceded the letter of the law and left the persons blameless. Technically they broke the law but it was excused for them and not held against them.

Mr 3:4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
Lu 6:9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?

Naphal, Jesus is here stating that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. He was correcting the perverted man-made teachings of the religious hierarchy of the day. It had always been lawful to do good on the Sabbath. This was not new, it was the way it should always have been. Of course you may disagree and claim that it was not lawful to do good on the Sabbath?

Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Jesus was pointing out the sinfulness of the Pharisaical interpretation of the Sabbath. They themselves would pull a beast out of a ditch on the Sabbath but refused assistance to a fellow man. You of course may disagree and claim that it was OT law to not assist a fellow man but okay to help a beast?

Tell me. How is it possible to observe the spirit of any law, and not observe the letter? Can you, for example, sleep with a woman and not commit adultery so long as you don't lust for her?
Is it possible to kill someone and remain blameless so long as you were not unreasonably angry?
Is it possible to 'rest in Jesus' from our own works and refuse to acknowledge the day which celebrates it?

I would suggest to you that if we are observing the spirit of the law, the letter looks after itself.

Rom 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

The righteousness of what law is referred to here?

Rom 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here Paul is giving the contrast of those in the flesh and those in the spirit. Those in the flesh are living in sin, disobedient to the law, and slaves to unrighteousness. Those in the spirit are free from sin, and servants of righteousness and obedient to the law. The law has not changed anywhere in this transaction, it is our response to the demands of the law that has changed.

Naphal
Apr 18th 2008, 09:39 AM
Mr 3:4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
Lu 6:9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?

Naphal, Jesus is here stating that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. He was correcting the perverted man-made teachings of the religious hierarchy of the day. It had always been lawful to do good on the Sabbath. This was not new, it was the way it should always have been. Of course you may disagree and claim that it was not lawful to do good on the Sabbath?

It is good to do anything good on the Sabbath, including to work but this was not so according to the old law.

Matthew 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
Matthew 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Matthew 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Matthew 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

Christ even states that David did what was unlawful.


Matthew 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

See? Its possible to "profane the Sabbath" but remain blameless and without sin. If regular priests could "profane the Sabbath" and be blameless then don't you think that also applies to Jesus who is the High Priest and the Lord of the Sabbath?

Matthew 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

Here he makes it clear he is not only greater than those priests but even greater than the temple itself.


Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

He is the Lord of the Sabbath and that means he has full authority about what can and can't be done on it or how it is to be honored.

He was accused of profaning the Sabbath and to defend himself he used an example of others that also profaned the Sabbath but weren't held guilty because it was a special circumstance. So, yes he profaned the Sabbath but was justified in doing it, and therefore was blameless which means without sin.

The Pharisees had a lot of trouble understanding how that could be even though they understood the two examples Christ used that were very similar to what he was doing and was accused of.

Once one understands how the Priests can profane the Sabbath in the OT but remain blameless, or how David was blameless eating the shewbread, then you can understand how that Christ could profane the Sabbath and be blameless.



Jesus was pointing out the sinfulness of the Pharisaical interpretation of the Sabbath. They themselves would pull a beast out of a ditch on the Sabbath but refused assistance to a fellow man. You of course may disagree and claim that it was OT law to not assist a fellow man but okay to help a beast?

Work was prohibited on the Sabbath. I do not believe helping a man or an animal in some form of rescue was ever prohibited. However, work such as gathering sticks or gathering food was prohibited.

Mark F
Apr 18th 2008, 10:42 AM
I cannot help but notice that the debate fails to see the spiritual truth of the matter, as if figuring out if the law is or is not for me. We have Scripture that clearly declares that Christ fullfilled the law, and if you have Christ in you the implication is that you then, partake of His attributes.

Jesus on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:13-32) declared to them that were not getting the true intent and were not seeing the supreme subject of the Scriptures, Himself. Stop for a minute and ask yourself, is this all about the law or not? No, that was all given to point to our Savior, and in Him we receive by imputation not only the salvation of our souls, but the means by which we can live a life pleasing to the Father. It cannot be a matter of law or no law, that is the same exact arguement that has been going on since the begining of the Church.

Acts 15:23-29
They wrote this, letter by them:

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,


To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:


Greetings.


24 "Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well."



Read my post from page 1 #12,




To see the law is to see who can do it, we have the record of it, and it shows us Him.

Psalm 19:7-11:
7 "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart;
The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever;
The judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold,
Yea, than much fine gold;
Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them Your servant is warned,
And in keeping them there is great reward."

Perfect--
Hebrews 5:9
"And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,"
James 1:25
"But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does."

Sure--
Hebrews 7:22
"by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant"


Right--
1 John 2:1
"My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."


Pure--
1 John 3:2-3
"Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure."



Clean--
John 15:1-4
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me."



True and Righteous altogether--
1 John 5:20
"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."


The above is a sample of the two-fold witness of the Bible, within itself about itself, and also of its witness to the person of Jesus Christ. Upon the pages of Scripture, we find the one who can change our hearts from the inside, which in Hebrews we find a similar claim;

Hebrews 4:12
"For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."


If you don't see the Person who is proclaimed throughout all of Scripture as the Altogether Lovely One, He who is the law made flesh, who is now in those who believe, it will always be an argument of law or no law. Look for the Truth of the matter and you will see.

Brother Mark
Apr 18th 2008, 11:46 AM
The OT would serve mainly as a history lesson but would not be right to imitate.

On the road to Emmaus, Jesus preached himself to the two men starting with Moses and all the prophets. The OT is far more than just history. If all we get out of it is history, we have missed Christ. It always pointed to Jesus and always will.

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 12:21 PM
On the road to Emmaus, Jesus preached himself to the two men starting with Moses and all the prophets. The OT is far more than just history. If all we get out of it is history, we have missed Christ. It always pointed to Jesus and always will.

not to mention the Sermon on the Mount was based on the old teaching of the law... He didn't change or abolish the old law.. he changed the way it was viewed and taught...

Brother Mark
Apr 18th 2008, 12:28 PM
not to mention the Sermon on the Mount was based on the old teaching of the law... He didn't change or abolish the old law.. he changed the way it was viewed and taught...

I agree. I think David viewed it the same way Jesus did though. In other words, Jesus revealed the way it was always supposed to be interpreted. Paul revealed it even more. It was always to be done in Spirit and in truth. However, until Christ came, the ceremonies were to point to Him. Once he accomplished his mission, the ceremonies were to continue, but only in Spirit.

Without the shedding of blood, there is still no forgiveness of sins. That hasn't changed nor will it ever change! Each of us is still required to have a sacrifice made for our sins. The law of a sin sacrifice is still going on today. Better that we come into Christ so that the effect of that Law is in Him instead of bearing under the curse of the law.

Keep on keeping on my brother. May the Lord continue to bless you and prosper you in your studies!

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 01:14 PM
I agree. I think David viewed it the same way Jesus did though. In other words, Jesus revealed the way it was always supposed to be interpreted. Paul revealed it even more. It was always to be done in Spirit and in truth. However, until Christ came, the ceremonies were to point to Him. Once he accomplished his mission, the ceremonies were to continue, but only in Spirit.

Without the shedding of blood, there is still no forgiveness of sins. That hasn't changed nor will it ever change! Each of us is still required to have a sacrifice made for our sins. The law of a sin sacrifice is still going on today. Better that we come into Christ so that the effect of that Law is in Him instead of bearing under the curse of the law.

Keep on keeping on my brother. May the Lord continue to bless you and prosper you in your studies!

here should be my point here... If the old law died at the cross, then why does Paul include it in his letters? Not ceremonial law such as circumcision and practices and ordinances.. but Moral law. Such as you shall not covet and things of that sort.

Do you know that Deuteronomy 6:5 sums up the law and the prophets... check it out...

Brother Mark
Apr 18th 2008, 02:08 PM
here should be my point here... If the old law died at the cross, then why does Paul include it in his letters? Not ceremonial law such as circumcision and practices and ordinances.. but Moral law. Such as you shall not covet and things of that sort.

Do you know that Deuteronomy 6:5 sums up the law and the prophets... check it out...

The old Law did not die. However, I am dead to ALL the law. If I keep one part, I must then keep all of it.

Just food for thought. :hmm:

Yea, I know about Deut. 6:5.

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 04:54 PM
The old Law did not die. However, I am dead to ALL the law. If I keep one part, I must then keep all of it.

Just food for thought. :hmm:

Yea, I know about Deut. 6:5.

That's where I may have questions... all of the law that remains? Someone could have a field day ripping you to shreds with that comment. All of the law would mean to them that they would have to keep the sabbath and keep the feasts. Of course we know that the ceremonial law is over and done with... even though it is a good topic to study as to the redemptive purposes... But that is a very controversial statement to make.... I would clarify

Brother Mark
Apr 18th 2008, 04:57 PM
That's where I may have questions... all of the law that remains? Someone could have a field day ripping you to shreds with that comment. All of the law would mean to them that they would have to keep the sabbath and keep the feasts. Of course we know that the ceremonial law is over and done with... even though it is a good topic to study as to the redemptive purposes... But that is a very controversial statement to make.... I would clarify

It is an interesting thought. I would say that we are still commanded to keep the feast of the Lord spiritually. What happens to the man who never experiences the feast of Passover in his life?

One major difference between the old and the new is that under the new, we are not judged by our performance. But there are many things in the old that carry over into the new. God was revealing in partial what he was going to unveil in the new. If we think one command will justify, we are then obligated to perform all of them! But that is another thread.

I am just suggesting that perhaps, all the law still stands. Just not the letter of the law. Food for thought... And I am also suggesting that we are no longer under the moral code of the law as well. ;)

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 05:04 PM
It is an interesting thought. I would say that we are still commanded to keep the feast of the Lord spiritually. What happens to the man who never experiences the feast of Passover in his life?

For every Christian has a Passover experience... Bondage to Sin, Baptism through Water (Red Sea) Baptism of Fire (the giving of the law/spirit), The preparation in the wilderness, and then reaching the Promised Land... The feasts of the Lord is the roadmap to redemption for all mankind. We aren't required to keep the Passover/Seder every year. It's good to and I often do it. But I'm not REQUIRED by LAW to do it.

It's the line "Feasts of the Lord" that people will say that we have to keep the feasts and the Lord doesn't meet you unless you keep them on the dates they're meant to be kept. I've heard personally people preach that from the pulpit and I have to disagree. That is faded away. The ceremonial is one thing. The exeperience is not the same as keeping the feasts. The Lord can meet me at anytime anyplace. That's why we have the spirit. So be careful when you say things like that, you leave alot of room for the enemy to sow seeds of division and religion.

Blessings!

Brother Mark
Apr 18th 2008, 05:42 PM
For every Christian has a Passover experience... Bondage to Sin, Baptism through Water (Red Sea) Baptism of Fire (the giving of the law/spirit), The preparation in the wilderness, and then reaching the Promised Land... The feasts of the Lord is the roadmap to redemption for all mankind. We aren't required to keep the Passover/Seder every year. It's good to and I often do it. But I'm not REQUIRED by LAW to do it.

Right. But if a lost man doesn't experience the passover feast, he goes to hell. So everyone is required to keep it at least once. That's the point. The law isn't dead. We are dead to the law AFTER we come to Christ.


The exeperience is not the same as keeping the feasts.

Well, it is the same in spirit. That's the point of moving into the spirit of the law and away from the letter of the law. In spirit, we keep the Passover Feast when we get saved.


The Lord can meet me at anytime anyplace. That's why we have the spirit. So be careful when you say things like that, you leave alot of room for the enemy to sow seeds of division and religion.

I know. You are correct about that.

I have more to say about the moral law, but I will wait for a moment.

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 06:04 PM
pretty much... The reason I said to be careful is because we have been misunderstood more in this thread than I have been in my entire life. :P We do need to be careful on how we word things.

Other wise very good points made... I once had a dream where I saw a bunch of people and I got to view their Passover experience... or their "testimony"... not only have we been saved from sin... we are also being saved "into" fullness and redemption... You can't be taken out of unless you are making a journey "into"

Brother Mark
Apr 18th 2008, 06:09 PM
pretty much... The reason I said to be careful is because we have been misunderstood more in this thread than I have been in my entire life. :P We do need to be careful on how we word things.

Other wise very good points made... I once had a dream where I saw a bunch of people and I got to view their Passover experience... or their "testimony"... not only have we been saved from sin... we are also being saved "into" fullness and redemption... You can't be taken out of unless you are making a journey "into"

Right! I went around and around and around on this issue a few years ago. Here's something else on the moral law...

What part of the law was written in stone? What part of it was moral?

2 Cor 3:5-8
5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how shall the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
NASB

Also, if I have to keep the moral law, why not all of it? Am I still under the moral law? How then can I be said to be dead to that which I am still alive to?

Am I only dead to part of the law or all of it?

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 06:14 PM
you are dead to 'sin' which is the breaking of the law... not the 'keeping' of the law... The ministry of death found in the law is supposed to show you the holiness of the God you serve, and to make you realize just how badly you need that person inside of you known as the Holy Spirit and God's grace...

Brother Mark
Apr 18th 2008, 06:43 PM
you are dead to 'sin' which is the breaking of the law... not the 'keeping' of the law... The ministry of death found in the law is supposed to show you the holiness of the God you serve, and to make you realize just how badly you need that person inside of you known as the Holy Spirit and God's grace...

But it doesn't say I am dead to only sin. Romans says I am dead to the Law and to sin. And if the moral law, the 10 commandments, which was written in stone, had a ministry of death, in what way did it minister death? If we push it now, does it still minister death?

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 06:45 PM
But it doesn't say I am dead to only sin. Romans says I am dead to the Law and to sin. And if the moral law, the 10 commandments, which was written in stone, had a ministry of death, in what way did it minister death? If we push it now, does it still minister death?

Romans 7 is a good place for that... Paul says that upon his reading of the law sin revived in him and he died... meaning that his human understanding of him to be called 'good' died that moment... He broke God's law the moment he read it... that left a hole in his spirit which gave God room to work in him... and you are free from the consequences of breaking the law... when you become a servant to the law you are under the law... but when you're under the spirit you keep the law almost by default... granted there are mistakes... but that's where grace comes in... make sense?

blessed are the poor in spirit...

Brother Mark
Apr 18th 2008, 06:50 PM
Romans 7 is a good place for that... Paul says that upon his reading of the law sin revived in him and he died... meaning that his human understanding of him to be called 'good' died that moment... He broke God's law the moment he read it... that left a hole in his spirit which gave God room to work in him... and you are free from the consequences of breaking the law... when you become a servant to the law you are under the law... but when you're under the spirit you keep the law almost by default... granted there are mistakes... but that's where grace comes in... make sense?

blessed are the poor in spirit...\

Right. Said another way...

1 Cor 15:55-57
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
NASB

So if the power of sin, is the law, how do you increase sin? And when sin is increased what happens then?

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 06:53 PM
\

Right. Said another way...

1 Cor 15:55-57
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
NASB

So if the power of sin, is the law, how do you increase sin? And when sin is increased what happens then?

one of two things... repentance or your conscience gets seared... that's where Hebrews 10:26-30 comes in... if you keep sinning after you recieve the knowledge of the truth then you have no sacrifice...

but the alternative... repentance...

where sin abuonded grace abounded much more... but shall we sin so that grace may abound? God forbid

Brother Mark
Apr 18th 2008, 07:00 PM
one of two things... repentance or your conscience gets seared... that's where Hebrews 10:26-30 comes in... if you keep sinning after you recieve the knowledge of the truth then you have no sacrifice...

but the alternative... repentance...

where sin abuonded grace abounded much more... but shall we sin so that grace may abound? God forbid

Yes. But something else happens too.


Rom 7:7-8

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "You shall not covet." 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
NASB

Coveting is part of the moral law. When Paul knew he couldn't covet, it increased coveting in him. It empowered sin. The power of sin is the law. If you want sin in Christians to be empowered, simply preach law.

That is why Paul referred to Law, even the moral law, as a ministry of death. When we push it, it empowers the sin that is in us. For one who is outside of Christ, he is under the entire law, every jot and tittle. He must keep the feast and all the ceremonial law in Spirit. If he doesn't he goes to hell. Once we move into Christ, we are dead to all that. Yet, Christ in us desires to please God. So we no longer are under the law but the law is in us. We do the law because it is inside us.

But if I want to empower sin in you, all I have to do is preach the moral law and it will empower it. The law is a ministry of death.

There is much more for us to discuss. But I have to leave for nashville now. I hope we can continue this discussion later tonight or perhaps tomorrow.

Blessings!

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 07:02 PM
oh we will...

this is the kind of conversation i wanted to have.... i am not leaving this...

Naphal
Apr 18th 2008, 08:27 PM
On the road to Emmaus, Jesus preached himself to the two men starting with Moses and all the prophets. The OT is far more than just history. If all we get out of it is history, we have missed Christ. It always pointed to Jesus and always will.

History isn't a bad thing. It properly places things of the past. Yes, it always pointed to Christ. It's like a map that helped someone get to a destination. The map is no longer needed in that practical sense because the journey was made and completed but it has use to remind how one made that journey and to help those who have not yet made it.

Naphal
Apr 18th 2008, 08:40 PM
here should be my point here... If the old law died at the cross, then why does Paul include it in his letters? Not ceremonial law such as circumcision and practices and ordinances.. but Moral law. Such as you shall not covet and things of that sort.

Because some of the old law of Moses is now a part of the new law of Christ:

Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.


Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.


There is a difference between the law of Moses and the law of Christ. there are some things such as not coveting, not stealing, not murdering which is carried over into the new law but not all of the old law of Moses is part of the law of Christ. This is one of the fundamental differences between Judaism and Christianity, between the old covenant and the new.




If the old law died at the cross, then why does Paul include it in his letters?


He doesn't promote it. He does refer to it to make points to those who were under and in bondage to it and he does speak of that which is part of the law of Christ but he opposed keeping the old law which is why he was so much attacked by the law keepers of the day:



Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Acts 13:40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
Acts 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Acts 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Acts 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.



Acts 18:12 And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat,
Acts 18:13 Saying, This fellow persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law.

The same happened to Stephen:


Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
Acts 6:9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.
Acts 6:10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.
Acts 6:11 Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God.
Acts 6:12 And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council,
Acts 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:
Acts 6:14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 08:54 PM
the law of Christ is to bear one another's burdens... i don't see that in the law of moses...

the law of Moses is summed up in these two commandments:

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart soul mind and strength. Deuteronomy 6:5 and Matthew 22:37

You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Leviticus 19:18 and Matthew 22:39

Mosaic laws that Christ quoted as the first and second great commandments.. no additions and nothing taken away

Naphal
Apr 18th 2008, 09:05 PM
the law of Christ is to bear one another's burdens... i don't see that in the law of moses...

Ok, but why do you say this then?


Mosaic laws that Christ quoted as the first and second great commandments.. no additions and nothing taken away


If you don't see that command in the law of Moses how can you say there were no additions made by Christ?

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 09:17 PM
the second commandment... love your neighbor as yourself... bear one another's burdens... it's kinda the same thing... just reworded

which means I have to repent for my last statement... Christ built on the law of Moses... in no way did he abolish or remove it... bad wording... :P

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 12:43 AM
History isn't a bad thing. It properly places things of the past. Yes, it always pointed to Christ. It's like a map that helped someone get to a destination. The map is no longer needed in that practical sense because the journey was made and completed but it has use to remind how one made that journey and to help those who have not yet made it.

Does this verse apply to the Law? Is the Law still profitable for teaching, and reproof and correction and especially, "equipping for every good work"?

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
NASB

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 12:44 AM
oh we will...

this is the kind of conversation i wanted to have.... i am not leaving this...

So, if the Law has a ministry of death, how can it properly be used?

Naphal
Apr 19th 2008, 12:59 AM
Does this verse apply to the Law? Is the Law still profitable for teaching, and reproof and correction and especially, "equipping for every good work"?

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
NASB


Only if it is taught correctly with the understanding of the Law of Christ and the new covenant. Meaning, that which is old and not part of the new must be taught as history else we pervert the new with what isn't part of the new.


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

All scripture must be rightly divided, or properly understood. This is very important when dealing with the part of the old which was "taken away" by God and replaced with the new. We cannot teach that the former things replace the new else that would be improper dividing of the word of truth.

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 01:03 AM
Only if it is taught correctly with the understanding of the Law of Christ and the new covenant. Meaning, that which is old and not part of the new must be taught as history else we pervert the new with what isn't part of the new.


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

All scripture must be rightly divided, or properly understood. This is very important when dealing with the part of the old which was "taken away" by God and replaced with the new. We cannot teach that the former things to replace the new else that would be improper dividing of the word of truth.

If it's only history, how does it equip? How does it teach about God? How does it reprove a man? And more specifically, how does it train a man in righteousness?

History is powerless. History is a good story. But the word of God has power!

Does this verse apply to history or to the word of God?

Heb 4:12
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
NASB

Can the Law separate the soul and spirit?

Naphal
Apr 19th 2008, 01:08 AM
which means I have to repent for my last statement... Christ built on the law of Moses... in no way did he abolish or remove it... bad wording... :P

Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Naphal
Apr 19th 2008, 01:16 AM
If it's only history, how does it equip? How does it teach about God? How does it reprove a man? And more specifically, how does it train a man in righteousness?

How can it not? History accomplishes all of this which is why we study history. If it is properly taught, it will equip, teach and reprove and train but it must be joined properly with what is taught in the NT as well. We cannot only teach from the Old of course.




History is powerless. History is a good story. But the word of God has power!

All of scripture is history besides the prophecies yet to be fulfilled. That doesn't make the NT which is thousands of years old "powerless".




Does this verse apply to history or to the word of God?

Heb 4:12
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
NASB


Both.




Can the Law separate the soul and spirit?



The OT law? I don't believe so, no. The OT law is dead and cannot do such things and I doubt it could or was intended to when it was alive. It is referred to as bondage, death and a curse.

valleybldr
Apr 19th 2008, 01:50 AM
The OT law? I don't believe so, no. The OT law is dead and cannot do such things and I doubt it could or was intended to when it was alive. It is referred to as C. Could you please cite some examples out of the Torah where the Lord's commands are "bondage, death and a curse". thanks, todd

Naphal
Apr 19th 2008, 01:58 AM
Could you please cite some examples out of the Torah where the Lord's commands are "bondage, death and a curse". thanks, todd

Those come from the NT, not the Torah although there may be some Torah references that I am not aware of currently.

Naphal
Apr 19th 2008, 02:13 AM
Here are some NT verses:


Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.


Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.


Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 02:24 AM
How can it not? History accomplishes all of this which is why we study history. If it is properly taught, it will equip, teach and reprove and train but it must be joined properly with what is taught in the NT as well. We cannot only teach from the Old of course.

History alone has no power. I can study the history of Abraham Lincoln and have nothing eternal accomplished unless God speaks something to me during the study.


All of scripture is history besides the prophecies yet to be fulfilled. That doesn't make the NT which is thousands of years old "powerless".

History alone is powerless.


The OT law? I don't believe so, no. The OT law is dead and cannot do such things and I doubt it could or was intended to when it was alive. It is referred to as bondage, death and a curse.

Then you are saying that the Law is not the word of God because we know from Hebrews 4:12 that the word of God can separate the soul and the Spirit.

Heb 4:12
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
NASB

History cannot accomplish Heb 4:12. But the word of God can. If the Law is the word of God, it can separate the soul and the spirit.

Naphal
Apr 19th 2008, 02:33 AM
History alone has no power. I can study the history of Abraham Lincoln and have nothing eternal accomplished unless God speaks something to me during the study.

I am speaking about biblical history specifically.






Quote:
All of scripture is history besides the prophecies yet to be fulfilled. That doesn't make the NT which is thousands of years old "powerless".
History alone is powerless.


History isn't alone because God is still God whether in the OT or the NT or even right now. We study God's word which is contained mostly of history "his story".








Quote:
The OT law? I don't believe so, no. The OT law is dead and cannot do such things and I doubt it could or was intended to when it was alive. It is referred to as bondage, death and a curse.
Then you are saying that the Law is not the word of God because we know from Hebrews 4:12 that the word of God can separate the soul and the Spirit.


The OT law is dead and that means it cannot do anything of itself any more.




Heb 4:12
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
NASB

History cannot accomplish Heb 4:12. But the word of God can. If the Law is the word of God, it can separate the soul and the spirit.

Paul is speaking about the Word of God in general not any individual words God uttered or wrote especially ones "taken away" by himself. This is a futile arguement and is going around in circles.

If you believe the OT law is still in place and we are under it then that's your right. I do not believe in that.

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 02:51 AM
Paul is speaking about the Word of God in general not any individual words God uttered or wrote especially ones "taken away" by himself. This is a futile arguement and is going around in circles.

If you believe the OT law is still in place and we are under it then that's your right. I do not believe in that.

The Hebrew writer is speaking of the only scriptures they had at the time, the OT scriptures.

I never said I was under the law. But it is the living word of God and powerful to the separation of our soul and spirit. It can enable and empower us to overcome sin in our life!

Unless one experiences for himself the passover feast of the Lord discussed in the Law of God, he will not enter into the kingdom. He will die and go to hell. It is important to understand that we live in newness of spirit. But the Law never went away. God wrote it in our hearts instead of leaving it on a stone.

Hebrews 4:12 makes clear that the word of God is powerful! It is more than history. It can divide the soul and spirit and we should listen to all that God says concerning his word.

Heb 4:11-12
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
NASB

The Hebrew writer did not clarify that verse. The Law is not dead. It is living and still has a ministry of death that can lead one to Christ. It is living. It is us that have died to it and so, we are no longer under the law. But it is useful to us for the dividing of our spirit and soul!

Naphal
Apr 19th 2008, 02:58 AM
Unless one experiences for himself the passover feast of the Lord discussed in the Law of God, he will not enter into the kingdom.

Please document this. I have read differently than that:


John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 04:06 AM
Please document this. I have read differently than that:


John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

What does the passover represent spiritually? One must "eat" Jesus as he commanded in John 6. He is the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world as John the Baptist states. If one wants to miss the death angel, he better have the blood of Jesus applied to the door of his heart and he better have Jesus inside of him. When one is saved, he experiences the passover feast of the Lord.

Studying the passover shows much about salvation because, as the Hebrew writer said "the word of God is living and able to separate the soul from the spirit".

ALL scripture is profitable. ALL scripture is LIVING.

Naphal
Apr 19th 2008, 04:11 AM
What does the passover represent spiritually? One must "eat" Jesus as he commanded in John 6. He is the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world as John the Baptist states. If one wants to miss the death angel, he better have the blood of Jesus applied to the door of his heart and he better have Jesus inside of him. When one is saved, he experiences the passover feast of the Lord.





Are you disagreeing with this verse?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Is believing and being baptised enough to be saved from damnation? Or do you claim that we must also partake of "the passover feast of the Lord discussed in the Law of God" to be saved from damnation?

valleybldr
Apr 19th 2008, 07:09 AM
The OT law? I don't believe so, no. The OT law is dead and cannot do such things and I doubt it could or was intended to when it was alive. It is referred to as bondage, death and a curse. Could you please provide us some examples of how the Lord's instructions are "bondage, death and a curse?" Let's take the command that a man should not serve in the military for the first year of married life. Maybe the one about not serving if he has not enjoyed the first harvest of his vineyard. If these two mitzvot are not "bondage, death and a curse" maybe you can give me the ones that are. thanks, todd

valleybldr
Apr 19th 2008, 07:15 AM
Here are some NT verses:Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. What is the bondage Paul is talking about? Worshipping the true God and Him only, Not stealing, resting on Shabbat? What is the bondage? Can you be specific as to what point Paul is trying to make because you make it sound like He was slamming God's instructions as less then ideal. todd

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 11:59 AM
Are you disagreeing with this verse?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Is believing and being baptised enough to be saved from damnation? Or do you claim that we must also partake of "the passover feast of the Lord discussed in the Law of God" to be saved from damnation?

He that believeth IS participating in the Passover Feast of the Lord. That is what believing does. It's why John The Baptist said "Behold the Lamb which takes away the sins of the world". Why did he call Jesus the Lamb? Because he was familiar with the OT.

John 6, Jesus said he must be "eaten". Just like the passover Lamb.

So when one believes, he is spiritually keeping the passover feast. One who doesn't keep the passover feast goes to hell. Or said another way, if Jesus isn't inside of you, if you don't "eat" him spiritually, you are are going to hell. Jesus said it another way "Man shall not live by bread alone but by EVERY word that proceeds from the mouth of God." When we eat the word, we believe.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 19th 2008, 02:33 PM
John 6, Jesus said he must be "eaten". Just like the passover Lamb.

I understand that to mean the Word must be eaten, in order to be able to become Christlike. The words Yeshua spoke are also Spirit and life.

Jer 15:16 Your words were found, and I ate them, and your words became to me a joy and the delight of my heart, for I am called by your name, O LORD, God of hosts.

This is why i think to truly "digest" the Word of God is so very important. To dewll on it like King David did.

Shalom,
Tanja

valleybldr
Apr 19th 2008, 03:30 PM
Jer 15:16 Your words were found, and I ate them, and your words became to me a joy and the delight of my heart, for I am called by your name, O LORD, God of hosts.

This is why i think to truly "digest" the Word of God is so very important. To dewll on it like King David did. I'm sorry Tanja but the Word of Yahweh that Jeremiah ate was '"bondage, death and a curse." ;)todd

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 19th 2008, 03:41 PM
What makes you think that valleybldr?

Shalom,
Tanja

valleybldr
Apr 19th 2008, 03:45 PM
What makes you think that valleybldr?

Shalom,
Tanja I was echoing the Pauline Anti-Noms to illustrate the obsurdity of their position. Anti-Nom I ain't. todd

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 19th 2008, 03:55 PM
:lol: .............

(15 characters)

timmyb
Apr 19th 2008, 04:13 PM
ok... I've changed my position...

THE OLD TESTAMENT IS BAD!!!!!!!
:o:o:o:o:o:o

PSYCH!!!
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 05:37 PM
I understand that to mean the Word must be eaten, in order to be able to become Christlike. The words Yeshua spoke are also Spirit and life.

Jer 15:16 Your words were found, and I ate them, and your words became to me a joy and the delight of my heart, for I am called by your name, O LORD, God of hosts.

This is why i think to truly "digest" the Word of God is so very important. To dewll on it like King David did.

Shalom,
Tanja

The Word must be eaten but it is not referring to the word. The scriptures thought the "word" would save them when in reality, it was only THE Word that could save.

He again spoke of eating his flesh and drinking his blood when he had the covenant meal with his apostles. "Drink, this is the blood of my covenant." Everyone left him when he spoke the words about eating his flesh because when they knew he was speaking in Spirit, they knew he was speaking of covenant. That was too much for them while canibalism was at least intriguing, covenant was more than they were willing to do.

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 05:38 PM
I was echoing the Pauline Anti-Noms to illustrate the obsurdity of their position. Anti-Nom I ain't. todd

And yet, it was Paul who said it was a ministry of death. We no longer are under the law, nor do we live by the letter of the law. Yet, it is all still very important.

valleybldr
Apr 19th 2008, 05:45 PM
And yet, it was Paul who said it was a ministry of death. We no longer are under the law, nor do we live by the letter of the law. Yet, it is all still very important.
Why is it a "ministry of death?" Without Jesus' applied blood one is still *under* the "ministry of death." todd

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 06:11 PM
Why is it a "ministry of death?" Without Jesus' applied blood one is still *under* the "ministry of death." todd

It is a ministry of death because the power of sin is the law. And sin brings forth death. Want people to sin? Preach law. ;)

The regulations of the law have faded away. We no longer live by them according to the letter but only according to the spirit. As God said, the letter kills but the Spirit gives life.

valleybldr
Apr 19th 2008, 06:34 PM
As God said, the letter kills but the Spirit gives life. If there is not law/sin there is no need for a Savior. IMO, you are not being faithful to what Paul's specifically said and so you have his teaching annulling divine law. Peter addressed the result of using Paul's writings in such a manner but I feel the man deserves some level of defense. todd

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 19th 2008, 06:35 PM
It is a ministry of death because the power of sin is the law. And sin brings forth death. Want people to sin? Preach law. Funny, but that is exactly what Yeshua did, He preached law, and even raised the standard. Not to mention He lived and breathed it.

Shalom,
Tanja

timmyb
Apr 19th 2008, 06:40 PM
Funny, but that is exactly what Yeshua did, He preached law, and even raised the standard. Not to mention He lived and breathed it.

Shalom,
Tanja

once again... we have two kinds of law here... one was established, one was done away with... the one established was the moral law... the one done away with was the ceremonial law

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 06:41 PM
Funny, but that is exactly what Yeshua did, He preached law, and even raised the standard. Not to mention He lived and breathed it.

Shalom,
Tanja

He was under law. But even so, he began the preaching of the spirit of the law.

The regulations of the old covenant are fading away. No longer are we under the letter.

John 1:17
17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
NASB

No matter how hard we try, we can't get passed that the letter kills, the old covenant has faded, the veil was torn. There are great things in the law for all of us to learn about the character of God. But the letter is not how we live any more.

How many times in the NT is holiness associated with food? Yet, in the old testament it is associated with food. Why is that? What is God trying to say? It's there and it's interesting if we want to see it.

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 06:42 PM
once again... we have two kinds of law here... one was established, one was done away with... the one established was the moral law... the one done away with was the ceremonial law

Are you sure about that? Where did God separate the two in his word? Didn't he say that if we keep one part of the law we are subject to ALL the law?

timmyb
Apr 19th 2008, 06:49 PM
He was under law. But even so, he began the preaching of the spirit of the law.

The regulations of the old covenant are fading away. No longer are we under the letter.

John 1:17
17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
NASB

No matter how hard we try, we can't get passed that the letter kills, the old covenant has faded, the veil was torn. There are great things in the law for all of us to learn about the character of God. But the letter is not how we live any more.

How many times in the NT is holiness associated with food? Yet, in the old testament it is associated with food. Why is that? What is God trying to say? It's there and it's interesting if we want to see it.

that's what I would like to know... it's just interesting to find out to me...

timmyb
Apr 19th 2008, 06:51 PM
Are you sure about that? Where did God separate the two in his word? Didn't he say that if we keep one part of the law we are subject to ALL the law?

the Book of Hebrews is very clear about what parts of the Mosaic Covenant had faded away... laws concerning foods, drinks, and feasts and ordinances have faded... the moral law of Moses as it relates to sin still stands

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 06:57 PM
the Book of Hebrews is very clear about what parts of the Mosaic Covenant had faded away... laws concerning foods, drinks, and feasts and ordinances have faded... the moral law of Moses as it relates to sin still stands

The book of Hebrews does make clear those things faded. However, scripture also says that if we hold to one part of the law, we are under ALL the law. Scripture has not made a clear distinction between the moral and ceremonial law. For instance, much of Hebrews is about dealing with moral failure, IMO, that makes that part of the law moral too. Right? "For without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins."

The moral law is the law that was the ministry of death. The ceremonial law was easy on the flesh. What are we to say then to Romans 7? Are we dead only to the ceremonial part? Or are we dead to the moral part as well? We are dead to ALL the law.


What part of the law was placed inside the ark? What part outside? Why?

I know there is an eternal law of God.

timmyb
Apr 19th 2008, 07:03 PM
The book of Hebrews does make clear those things faded. However, scripture also says that if we hold to one part of the law, we are under ALL the law. Scripture has not made a clear distinction between the moral and ceremonial law. For instance, much of Hebrews is about dealing with moral failure, IMO, that makes that part of the law moral too. Right? "For without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins."

The moral law is the law that was the ministry of death. The ceremonial law was easy on the flesh. What are we to say then to Romans 7? Are we dead only to the ceremonial part? Or are we dead to the moral part as well? We are dead to ALL the law.


What part of the law was placed inside the ark? What part outside? Why?

I know there is an eternal law of God.

I know the TEN COMMANDMENTS were placed inside the ark... Technically we aren't dead to the ceremonial law... by accepting Christ's sacrifice we fulfill the ceremonial obligations of the law his blood covers our sins... The law required a sacrifice for sins and Jesus was that pure and spotless lamb. The ceremonial law was God's way for us to deal with our problems with the moral law and to spare us the consequences of the moral law... Now that Christ is the propitiation for our sins his blood covers our sins and fulfills our ceremonial obligations to the law... so the ceremonial obligations regarding ordinances, foods, and sacrifices have faded away for Jesus was the better sacrifice... but man's universal problem with the moral law remains...

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 07:08 PM
I know the TEN COMMANDMENTS were placed inside the ark... Technically we aren't dead to the ceremonial law... by accepting Christ's sacrifice we fulfill the ceremonial obligations of the law his blood covers our sins... The law required a sacrifice for sins and Jesus was that pure and spotless lamb. The ceremonial law was God's way for us to deal with our problems with the moral law and to spare us the consequences of the moral law... Now that Christ is the propitiation for our sins his blood covers our sins and fulfills our ceremonial obligations to the law... so the ceremonial obligations regarding ordinances, foods, and sacrifices have faded away for Jesus was the better sacrifice... but man's universal problem with the moral law remains...

We are getting closer to agreement. The ten commandments are, IMO, God's eternal law. No where in scripture does God say the law died. However, we do have Hebrews that teaches that the "old covenant has faded away". The regulations of the old covenant were found, IMO, in much of what you would call the ceremonial law. But without law, a covenant cannot stand. Covenant needs law to be valid. So what passed away, was the regulations of the covenant (Heb. 8 and 9). The eternal law still stands.

Yet, I am dead to the law! Romans 7 teaches that. It is talking about the moral law as Paul went on to say "that the law said not to covet and that caused coveting to grow in my heart". The power of sin is not the ceremonial law but the moral law! I am dead to the moral law. I am dead to the "ceremonial law". I am dead to all of the law. Why? That I might be one with Christ! For I cannot be married to the law and married to Christ.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 19th 2008, 07:11 PM
He was under law. But even so, he began the preaching of the spirit of the law.

I understand being under the Law to equal being under the curse and condemnation of the Law, that is, only if you break the Law will you be under the law.

If one upholds it like Yeshua did, then then one is free.

So i disagree with your statement that Yeshua was ever under the law.

Shalom,
Tanja

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 07:15 PM
I understand being under the Law to equal being under the curse and condemnation of the Law, that is, only if you break the Law will you be under the law.

If one upholds it like Yeshua did, then then one is free.

So i disagree with your statement that Yeshua was ever under the law.

Shalom,
Tanja

Here's a verse that says Jesus was under the law.


Gal 4:4-5
But when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
NASB

Jesus was born under the law.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 19th 2008, 07:21 PM
I'm not sure i connect this verse the same you do.
It only says he was born under the Law, not that he was under the Law Himself.
IOW his birth was under the Law, but does that mean He Himself was under the law?

Shalom,
Tanja

timmyb
Apr 19th 2008, 07:29 PM
We are getting closer to agreement. The ten commandments are, IMO, God's eternal law. No where in scripture does God say the law died. However, we do have Hebrews that teaches that the "old covenant has faded away". The regulations of the old covenant were found, IMO, in much of what you would call the ceremonial law. But without law, a covenant cannot stand. Covenant needs law to be valid. So what passed away, was the regulations of the covenant (Heb. 8 and 9). The eternal law still stands.

Yet, I am dead to the law! Romans 7 teaches that. It is talking about the moral law as Paul went on to say "that the law said not to covet and that caused coveting to grow in my heart". The power of sin is not the ceremonial law but the moral law! I am dead to the moral law. I am dead to the "ceremonial law". I am dead to all of the law. Why? That I might be one with Christ! For I cannot be married to the law and married to Christ.

now we're cookin with hot grease... :cool:

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 19th 2008, 07:32 PM
Yeshua was born at a time where the legal perversion of the Torah ran rampant, so i guess one could say He was born under that yoke, but Yeshua himself was never under the yoke.
If he had been under that Yoke, he would have been declared a sinner, which is precisely what some Pharisees tried to do, and even used eventually to crucify Him.

But to Say Yeshua was under the Law would leave room for doubt as to his total sinless lifestyle.

Considering these things the way you interpret this does not make sense IMO.

Shalom,
Tanja

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 07:34 PM
I'm not sure i connect this verse the same you do.
It only says he was born under the Law, not that he was under the Law Himself.
IOW his birth was under the Law, but does that mean He Himself was under the law?

Shalom,
Tanja

Under the law simply means subject to the law. When we are under the law, it is our tutor. Once we reach adulthood, the tutor is no longer over us and we are no longer under it.

Here are more translations.

Gal 4:4-5

4 But when the right time came, God sent his Son, born of a woman, subject to the law.
Holy Bible, New Living Translation ®, copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers. All rights reserved.

Gal 4:4
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
NKJV

Gal 4:4

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
KJV

Gal 4:4

4 But when the proper time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born subject to [the regulations of] the Law,
AMP

I could go on and on.

The point is that Jesus was born under the law and had to obey it. Had he not been born under the law, he could not have ransomed the rest of us that were born under the law.

Only Jesus was ever born without sin. If a man could keep all the law, still he would go to hell because of Adam. Righteousness cannot come from the law.

Gal 2:21
21 "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
NASB

We are not born righteous into this life. We are born righteous into Christ. If one perfectly kept the law, hell would await him if he did not trust in Christ to redeem him from the curse of Adam.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 19th 2008, 08:08 PM
I do not deny that righteousness canot be obtained by following the Law.
Righteousness comes by the Blood of Yeshua alone.
However, i still do not see that nullifying a need for obedience to the Law.

Galatians states that the law is not opposed to the promises of God!!!

Shalom,
Tanja

timmyb
Apr 19th 2008, 08:11 PM
It's the spirit that is our teacher... what does it teach... the word of God... what is the word of God? The law! The Sprit is our enabler to walk in obedience... when we walk under the law we trust our own efforts to keep the law... when we walk in the spirit, we are trusting God to guide us in holiness which is defined by the law...

OUR righteousness is as filthy rags...

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 19th 2008, 08:37 PM
Correct timmyb!

Eph 6:16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one;
Eph 6:17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God,

Shalom,
Tanja

timmyb
Apr 19th 2008, 08:42 PM
even I can't lose them all... :P

shalom,

TimmyB

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 09:45 PM
It's the spirit that is our teacher... what does it teach... the word of God... what is the word of God? The law! The Sprit is our enabler to walk in obedience... when we walk under the law we trust our own efforts to keep the law... when we walk in the spirit, we are trusting God to guide us in holiness which is defined by the law...

OUR righteousness is as filthy rags...

Not the law. But Jesus. I am dead to all the law, including the moral law. ;)

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 09:48 PM
I do not deny that righteousness canot be obtained by following the Law.
Righteousness comes by the Blood of Yeshua alone.
However, i still do not see that nullifying a need for obedience to the Law.

Galatians states that the law is not opposed to the promises of God!!!

Shalom,
Tanja

The law is powerless. The only power it has is to increase sin. But Jesus, he is the Empowerer.

I am dead to all the law in every way imaginable. And, as Timmyb has pointed out, the regulations of the covenant, the part of the law outside the ark, has faded away. It was all types and shadows anyway.

But even the part of the law written in stone, the 10 commandments has a ministry of death.

The real answer is that, until one is like Christ, one cannot keep the law. The real standard is WAY too high. When one fully understands the law, he realizes it cannot be kept as long as one is alive. Hence, we are taught to be dead.

The law Jesus was born under was the 10 commandments. It was the Law that Galatians said was good!

timmyb
Apr 19th 2008, 09:49 PM
being dead to the law, means you are dead to your own efforts to keep the law... you cannot do it by yourself... your righteousness is as filthy rags... you have to die for the spirit to come in you for you to walk in fullness of life... it's the spirit that allows you to walk in holiness defined by the law... so you are dead to the law, but alive in the spirit and in which you even fulfill the law of God at the same time...

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 09:54 PM
being dead to the law, means you are dead to your own efforts to keep the law... you cannot do it by yourself... your righteousness is as filthy rags... you have to die for the spirit to come in you for you to walk in fullness of life... it's the spirit that allows you to walk in holiness defined by the law... so you are dead to the law, but alive in the spirit and in which you even fulfill the law of God at the same time...

Actually, it doesn't mean I am dead to my efforts. For that isn't what the writer wrote. He wrote that I am dead to the Law. Put law on someone and watch sin rise up within them! It is a ministry of death! It was meant to wrap a man up in his sin so that sin would become exceedingly sinful!

When I died, I became alive in Christ. No longer am I "under" the moral law. Yet, I keep the Law because Christ is in my heart and the law is written in my heart. But the OT law, that I am dead to. If our focus is the Law, if we are looking at the Law, then we may miss keeping our eyes on the author and finisher of our faith.

I know I may sound confusing. It seems a conundrum. But it is not.

timmyb
Apr 19th 2008, 09:55 PM
Actually, it doesn't mean I am dead to my efforts. For that isn't what the writer wrote. He wrote that I am dead to the Law. Put law on someone and watch sin rise up within them! It is a ministry of death! It was meant to wrap a man up in his sin so that sin would become exceedingly sinful!

When I died, I became alive in Christ. No longer am I "under" the moral law. Yet, I keep the Law because Christ is in my heart and the law is written in my heart. But the OT law, that I am dead to. If our focus is the Law, if we are looking at the Law, then we may miss keeping our eyes on the author and finisher of our faith.

I know I may sound confusing. It seems a conundrum. But it is not.

what we are doing mark is we have different ways of saying the exact same thing... we are disagreeing about our agreements... now THAT'S confusing!

we are beating around the same bush...

Naphal
Apr 20th 2008, 09:36 AM
No where in scripture does God say the law died. However, we do have Hebrews that teaches that the "old covenant has faded away".


You've been doing good work on this so I have enjoyed sitting back and watching. As for the above you know I disagree on that but I wanted to show that the old hasn't only faded away:


Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

It also was decaying. What causes something to decay? Death of course. I believe we are not only dead to the law but the law is dead to us as well. That makes a complete and thorough break from it so we can fully embrace the new. Like that one example, our former husband which represented the law is dead so we are legally able to take a new one which is Christ and his law and his covenant. We all know no one remains married after death so in that example we are not the ones dead but the law is. In other examples it is we that die to the law. I think God is making the same type of point but in two different ways so we can fully understand.





Yet, I am dead to the law! Romans 7 teaches that. It is talking about the moral law as Paul went on to say "that the law said not to covet and that caused coveting to grow in my heart". The power of sin is not the ceremonial law but the moral law! I am dead to the moral law. I am dead to the "ceremonial law". I am dead to all of the law. Why? That I might be one with Christ! For I cannot be married to the law and married to Christ.


Amen. That's all I have been saying. I just am not sure how to get you to see how that former marriage to the law ended so that we could marry Christ without making Christ an adulterer. It was because our previous marriage ended not with our death but the death of our husband, the law.

walked
Apr 20th 2008, 09:47 AM
Is the old covenant the Law or, is the old covenant Gods promises to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isac, Jacob and David ?
Jesus (the new covenant) fulfilled the old covenant!

Jesus (the new covenant) said Himself He wont change one jot in the Law.
Where can I find in scripture that the Law is the 'old covenant' ?
PLEASE ! ....HELP !

Naphal
Apr 20th 2008, 10:02 AM
Where can I find in scripture that the Law is the 'old covenant' ?
PLEASE ! ....HELP !



Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Here we have the promise made to Abraham and his seed.


Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

And here we have something occurring 430 later called the covenant and also called the law. This is commonly known as the old or the first covenant also the law of Moses.

It is this covenant, the law, which cannot disannul the early promise to Abraham.

So we have the Abrahamic promise. Then we have a covenant called the law which came after the Abrahamic promise.

We know many things from this one verse but one is that the law of Moses is also called the covenant, or old covenant to us now.


Galatians 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.


Again, further clarification of the differences between what was promised to Abraham and what comes via the law. A promise is different than a legal inheritance.

walked
Apr 20th 2008, 10:18 AM
Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Here we have the promise made to Abraham and his seed.


Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

And here we have something occurring 430 later called the covenant and also called the law. This is commonly known as the old or the first covenant also the law of Moses.

It is this covenant, the law, which cannot disannul the early promise to Abraham.

So we have the Abrahamic promise. Then we have a covenant called the law which came after the Abrahamic promise.

We know many things from this one verse but one is that the law of Moses is also called the covenant, or old covenant to us now.


Galatians 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.


Again, further clarification of the differences between what was promised to Abraham and what comes via the law. A promise is different than a legal inheritance.

Is the old covenant the Law or, is the old covenant Gods promises to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isac, Jacob and David ?
Jesus (the new covenant) fulfilled the old covenant!

Jesus (the new covenant) said Himself He wont change one jot in the Law.


I learned from scripture (that I cant quote off hand atm) that the Law is indeed a covenant but, a covenant that if His people are obedient to the Law God will bless them with long years and prosperity, and the law from Moses is not the 'old covenant' given to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isac, Jacob and David...

I've also learned from scripture (that I also cant quote off hand atm) that the pharisees and leaders of Israel failed and taught the people to fail because they twisted the 'covenant of Law' (among other things) they twisted and taught that the covenant of the Law of Moses into the covenant made by God to Abraham ('old covenant').

So, I'm a bit confused by seeing here the Law being presented as the
'old covenant'

Naphal
Apr 20th 2008, 10:41 AM
Is the old covenant the Law or, is the old covenant Gods promises to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isac, Jacob and David ?




The old covenant and the law is one in the same, it's the one from Mt Sinai and Moses. There are other covenants and promises made to others but when we read of "the law" or the "old covenant".




Jesus (the new covenant) said Himself He wont change one jot in the Law.

This is what he said:


Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


However this does not mean the law wasn't changed because Paul says it was.


Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Changing and destroying are different things although I understand its a fine line that's difficult to understand.




I learned from scripture (that I cant quote off hand atm) that the Law is indeed a covenant but, a covenant that if His people are obedient to the Law God will bless them with long years and prosperity, and the law from Moses is not the 'old covenant' given to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isac, Jacob and David...

The law of Moses is also known as the old covenant. The ones given to those others is usually not referred to in the NT.





I've also learned from scripture (that I also cant quote off hand atm) that the pharisees and leaders of Israel failed and taught the people to fail because they twisted the 'covenant of Law' they twisted and taught that the covenant of the Law was the covenant made by God to Abraham ('old covenant').



I believe their main problem was adding "leaven" which means to inflate and add to as well as too strictly enforce the letter of the law above all else.




So, I'm a bit confused by seeing here the Law being presented as the
'old covenant'



Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

here also we see the law being addressed but he also uses
"covenant" when he finishes. It's all about the same thing.

Basically the law are the rules or regulations of the covenant or agreement but naturally they are so closely related that scripture often uses them interchangeably.

Naphal
Apr 20th 2008, 10:57 AM
Genesis 6:18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.
Genesis 6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
Genesis 6:20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.
Genesis 6:21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

Here we have a covenant but we have no laws with it. I forget the term for it right now but this is a one sided type of covenant where God does all the promising but requires no special action on the others part. It's a "promise" God keeps.

Genesis 6:22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.
Genesis 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
Genesis 9:10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
Genesis 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
Genesis 9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
Genesis 9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
Genesis 9:14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
Genesis 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
Genesis 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
Genesis 9:17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

Also take note that this covenant is about never flooding the world again and it's made not only with Noah and his family but to "all flesh" meaning all animal life as well.

Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Genesis 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Genesis 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
Genesis 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Genesis 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
Genesis 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Genesis 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Genesis 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Genesis 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Genesis 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Genesis 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Genesis 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Here we have a different covenant for a different reason plus it is the first covenant that has law as well. It has only one law and that is to "circumcise the flesh of your foreskin" at eight days of age.

Now, the Sinai covenant through Moses had a great number of laws that was part of it. This is the only covenant referred to as the "old covenant" and considered the "first covenant" in which the new or second covenant replaced.

walked
Apr 20th 2008, 11:01 AM
Thank you Naphal (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=11292),

For you quick replies and patience with me here.
I will study the scriptures you quote, study them in context with the before and after chapters they are found in, and try to learn more from God about this.

I just hope you and others will consider my point that the promises made to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isac, Jacob and David these were/are
(promises of a seed of salvation) which Christ fulfilled, hence they are referred to as the 'old covenant'

And consider too my point made on a distinct difference between these two different covenants:
(covenant of seed) which is Gods way to: salvation and restoration, which was/is fulfilled by Christ.
And the:
(covenant of Law) which is Gods way to: teach men to find long years and blessing of prosperity, protection and good favor in Gods eyes, which is old, but not done away with, nor is it a covenant promising salvation by keeping the laws as the Pharisees and leaders of Israel taught.

Yay there are many covenants given by God to men and man, thats why I was taken back by seeing the Law being presented as the 'old covenant' here on this thread.

Naphal
Apr 20th 2008, 11:07 AM
Thank you Naphal (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=11292),

For you quick replies and patience with me here.
I will study the scriptures you quote, study them in context with the before and after chapters they are found in, and try to learn more from God about this.

Thanks and I hope you are greatly blessed.




I just hope you and others will consider my point that the promises made to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isac, Jacob and David these were/are
(promises of a seed of salvation) which Christ fulfilled, hence they are referred to as the '
'old covenant'



None of these things are referred to as "the old covenant".

For example, how exactly did Christ fulfill the covenant with Noah?

walked
Apr 20th 2008, 11:15 AM
Thanks and I hope you are greatly blessed.




None of these things are referred to as "the old covenant".

For example, how exactly did Christ fulfill the covenant with Noah?

Through Noah's seed it was fulfilled when Christ Jesus was manifest on earth to do His Fathers will/work

Naphal
Apr 20th 2008, 11:22 AM
Through Noah's seed it was fulfilled when Christ Jesus was manifest on earth to do His Fathers will/work

No, the covenant with Noah has nothing to do with his seed or Christ fulfilling anything. There was no requirements by them to do anything. It was only a promise not to destroy humans or animals or the earth using a flood. That covenant was not fulfilled by Christ because it's unrelated and it is still in effect protecting us from such a fate.


Genesis 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

walked
Apr 20th 2008, 11:29 AM
No, the covenant with Noah has nothing to do with his seed or Christ fulfilling anything. There was no requirements by them to do anything. It was only a promise not to destroy humans or animals or the earth using a flood. That covenant was not fulfilled by Christ because it's unrelated and it is still in effect protecting us from such a fate.


Genesis 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
Yay, that is the promise made to Noah by God you point to, but isn't there a covenant re-established concerning Noah's seed, which is a confirmation of the continuation of the 'covenant of seed' established by God to Adam n Eve... This is the covenant I point to 'the old covenant' which was even re-established again later with Abraham after Noah, and later again with Isac, and later again with Jacob, and later again with David ?

And consider too my point made on a distinct difference between these two different covenants:
(covenant of seed) which is Gods way to: salvation and restoration, which was/is fulfilled by Christ.
And the:
(covenant of Law) which is Gods way to: teach men to find long years and blessing of prosperity, protection and good favor in Gods eyes, which is old, but not done away with, nor is it a covenant promising salvation by keeping the laws as the Pharisees and leaders of Israel taught.

Yay there are many covenants given by God to men and man, thats why I was taken back by seeing the Law being presented as the 'old covenant' here on this thread.

Brother Mark
Apr 20th 2008, 12:11 PM
You've been doing good work on this so I have enjoyed sitting back and watching. As for the above you know I disagree on that but I wanted to show that the old hasn't only faded away:


Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

It also was decaying. What causes something to decay? Death of course. I believe we are not only dead to the law but the law is dead to us as well. That makes a complete and thorough break from it so we can fully embrace the new. Like that one example, our former husband which represented the law is dead so we are legally able to take a new one which is Christ and his law and his covenant. We all know no one remains married after death so in that example we are not the ones dead but the law is. In other examples it is we that die to the law. I think God is making the same type of point but in two different ways so we can fully understand.

We won't agree on this one. The law is the word of God and therefor is alive and able to cut and separate the soul from the Spirit. The problem today is many don't know how to use the law, lawfully.

1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
NASB

The Law should be preached to the lost so that they can be wrapped up in sin. That is the purpose of the law. It still is able to pierce to the heart as it did when Paul, Jesus, Peter and all the NT writers preached it. The understanding they had was an understanding of the types and shadows and that it represented things in the heavinlies. This foundation gave them understanding to the character of God and what the spirit of the Law really was. The Law is rich in that it reveals much about the character of God. For from the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. God spoke the Law and it can reveal a great deal about Him to us.

So when we preach "Thou shalt not covet" the only power it has is to increase sin in those that hear it. But when we bring Christ to bear also, we know that the law of not coveting is written in our hearts now and that we no longer will covet. Our inward desire is to please God. But the flesh, just like Ishmael, cannot be tamed. It must be killed.



Amen. That's all I have been saying. I just am not sure how to get you to see how that former marriage to the law ended so that we could marry Christ without making Christ an adulterer. It was because our previous marriage ended not with our death but the death of our husband, the law.

You say that because you try to take the analogy further than it was intended to be taken. Also, you are ignoring other scriptures.

We see in many places that we have died. We are dead to sin. We are dead to our old way of life. We are dead to ourselves. There are many passages that speak of our death. Romans 7 does not indicate that the law has died, only that we have died. The point is that when one dies, a covenant is broken so to speak. The covenant is till death do us part. So when we died, we were free to remarry.

Romans 7 is a great example of using the Law rightly. For those that are not in Christ, they are still "under the Law". Paul, realized that covetousness was a major issue in his life because of the law. But as he died to the law and to himself, he discovered that Christ could deliver him not only from covetousness but from the Law! We are dead to both.

Brother Mark
Apr 20th 2008, 12:12 PM
what we are doing mark is we have different ways of saying the exact same thing... we are disagreeing about our agreements... now THAT'S confusing!

we are beating around the same bush...

But we are not really saying the same thing though I think we are close. I am getting at using the law lawfully. Who is the law really for today?

valleybldr
Apr 20th 2008, 02:00 PM
But we are not really saying the same thing though I think we are close. I am getting at using the law lawfully. Who is the law really for today? Anyone led to lead holy life. Prov 3:1 "My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: :18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her."

todd

Brother Mark
Apr 20th 2008, 02:17 PM
Anyone led to lead holy life. Prov 3:1 "My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: :18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her."

todd

Yet, the letter never was meant for us as demonstrated by David eating the show bread. By the letter he sinned. But in spirit he did not. Using the law properly is always key. The law is for the unrighteous man. David was not unrighteous.

The old covenant, the Law of Moses, it has faded away.

Heb 8:13-9:1

13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

9 Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary.
NASB

Eating pork isn't the issue any more. ;)

valleybldr
Apr 20th 2008, 02:35 PM
Eating pork isn't the issue any more. ;)
Then why is it "an issue" in the future? todd

Brother Mark
Apr 20th 2008, 02:38 PM
Then why is it "an issue" in the future? todd

Don't know. Why not ask the Lord? It's certainly not an issue now as it has faded away.

No reason to live under the old covenant since it has been replaced with the new covenant.

Are you going to offer sacrifices for your sin in the future? Will Jesus sacrifice no longer count?

timmyb
Apr 20th 2008, 02:43 PM
Yet, the letter never was meant for us as demonstrated by David eating the show bread. By the letter he sinned. But in spirit he did not. Using the law properly is always key. The law is for the unrighteous man. David was not unrighteous.

The old covenant, the Law of Moses, it has faded away.

Heb 8:13-9:1

13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

9 Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary.
NASB

Eating pork isn't the issue any more. ;)

the issue is now inner purity

Brother Mark
Apr 20th 2008, 02:52 PM
the issue is now inner purity

Right! We don't "eat" things spiritually that will make us unclean.

Holiness in the NT is not tied with food as it is in the OT. There is a reason for that!

But even in the OT it was about inner purity as David wrote in Psalms 51. He, more than most, understood the difference between letter and spirit. Yet, he was still bound by the letter. But he also kept the spirit of the law. That is why God showed him so much!

Here is where Peter quoted the "Be ye Holy as I am holy" command from around the food laws.

1 Peter 1:13-16

13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, 15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16 because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."
NASU

He quoted the OT food command. But he rightly discerned that God was concerned with something more than food. In this case, he spoke of our minds and keeping our hope fixed on the grace that comes from the revelation of Jesus Christ. And then he spoke about not being conformed to the world. Paul wrote it in a different way but very similar.

Rom 12:2
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
NASB

We are to "eat" the revelation that God gives us of his son Jesus Christ in the word. In this way, we are transformed and not conformed to the ways of the world. And we become holy.

The thoughts of man that proceed from his heart, they defile a man. The OT food laws were being used by Peter to show that we must eat the words of God and not the words of our own heart. For what comes from our heart can defile us. So we are transformed through the renewing of our minds and that renewing is based totally on the revelation of Jesus Christ. For when we see Him, we are given grace! When one looked at the serpent that was lifted up in the wilderness, grace came.

Jesus said it this way... "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."

Holiness is not about pork. It's about being transformed in the inner man. The NT clarifies what the OT shadow was all about.

We are in total agreement now my brother.

timmyb
Apr 20th 2008, 02:58 PM
that was the total focus of my argument from comment one

Brother Mark
Apr 20th 2008, 03:01 PM
that was the total focus of my argument from comment one

I know. But preaching law does not bring about that holiness. That was what I was trying to communicate. ;)

timmyb
Apr 20th 2008, 03:03 PM
i was preaching meditating on the law.. and how one should view the law..

Brother Mark
Apr 20th 2008, 03:10 PM
i was preaching meditating on the law.. and how one should view the law..

Then you are right. We are in agreement. For the law shows me where I do not conform. But the power comes through the revelation of Christ Jesus. No longer am I condemned when I don't conform. My desire is to conform to Christ. So when I see what Jesus is like, I know that is what I want to be like. The law is for the unrighteous man. Jesus had nothing of value here. If a man is totally dead to the flesh and totally alive to God, then the command "Thou shalt not covet" is nothing for it does not apply to him. But to the man who is rich in this world, it is bondage and death!

valleybldr
Apr 20th 2008, 03:33 PM
Are you going to offer sacrifices for your sin in the future? Will Jesus sacrifice no longer count? I don't plan on being a physical being then. todd

timmyb
Apr 20th 2008, 04:09 PM
Then you are right. We are in agreement. For the law shows me where I do not conform. But the power comes through the revelation of Christ Jesus. No longer am I condemned when I don't conform. My desire is to conform to Christ. So when I see what Jesus is like, I know that is what I want to be like. The law is for the unrighteous man. Jesus had nothing of value here. If a man is totally dead to the flesh and totally alive to God, then the command "Thou shalt not covet" is nothing for it does not apply to him. But to the man who is rich in this world, it is bondage and death!

:amen:

I could care less about how a person views the method of holiness in his life... they shall be measured by their fruits... how a person views God even affects their life

Owe nothing to your neighbor unless to love one another for he who loves has fulfilled the law. Romans 13:8

Brother Mark
Apr 20th 2008, 05:45 PM
I don't plan on being a physical being then. todd

Then pork will be as meaningless to you then as it should be now. ;)

God can re-institute as much of the old covenant as he desires when he desires to do so. Doesn't mean it has not faded away for today.

But let us still beware of eating that which will defile us; not physical food, but the spiritual food that will take root in our heart then come out of our mouth. That will defile us.

Naphal
Apr 20th 2008, 09:09 PM
Yay, that is the promise made to Noah by God you point to, but isn't there a covenant re-established concerning Noah's seed, which is a confirmation of the continuation of the 'covenant of seed' established by God to Adam n Eve...


That was the only covenant made with Noah and it was made to all his seed and all life on the earth for all time. That covenant applies to us all and will be in effect until the age ends.



This is the covenant I point to 'the old covenant' which was even re-established again later with Abraham after Noah,

In regards to the covenant made with Abraham, no it was not a re-establishing of the cov. made with Noah because it was a new and separate covenant that was formed for a completely different reason.




Yay there are many covenants given by God to men and man, thats why I was taken back by seeing the Law being presented as the 'old covenant' here on this thread.

I'm afriad the law which are the rules of the Sinai covenant is the one that is called "the old covenant/testament" in NT scripture.


2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:


This is speaking of the ten commandments of the law of the old covenant.


2 Corinthians 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2 Corinthians 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2 Corinthians 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2 Corinthians 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2 Corinthians 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.


Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Hebrews 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Hebrews 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec)
Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Keep in mind that the word here "testament" is the same word that is also translated "covenant". Same thing. We are reading of the old covenant and law and the new covenant in Christ.


1242
1242 diatheke {dee-ath-ay'-kay}
from 1303; TDNT - 2:106,157; n f
AV - covenant 20, testament 13; 33
1) a disposition, arrangement, of any sort, which one wishes to
be valid, the last disposition which one makes of his earthly
possessions after his death, a testament or will
2) a compact, a covenant, a testament
2a) God's covenant with Noah, etc.


Easton's dictionary


occurs twelve times in the New Testament (Heb. 9:15, etc.) as the rendering of the Gr. diatheke, which is twenty times rendered "covenant" in the Authorized Version, and always so in the Revised Version.

Naphal
Apr 20th 2008, 09:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphal http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1610853#post1610853)
You've been doing good work on this so I have enjoyed sitting back and watching. As for the above you know I disagree on that but I wanted to show that the old hasn't only faded away:


Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

It also was decaying. What causes something to decay? Death of course. I believe we are not only dead to the law but the law is dead to us as well. That makes a complete and thorough break from it so we can fully embrace the new. Like that one example, our former husband which represented the law is dead so we are legally able to take a new one which is Christ and his law and his covenant. We all know no one remains married after death so in that example we are not the ones dead but the law is. In other examples it is we that die to the law. I think God is making the same type of point but in two different ways so we can fully understand.



We won't agree on this one.


Can you please explain why the law was decaying then if it wasn't dead?

You have said:


The old covenant, the Law of Moses, it has faded away.


In the same verse it is decaying and fading. I don't understand how you can not believe that it has suffered a death which causes the decaying and the fading away.





The law is the word of God and therefor is alive and able to cut and separate the soul from the Spirit.

Yes, the law of Christ is alive, but the former law is not.


Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.




The Law should be preached to the lost so that they can be wrapped up in sin. That is the purpose of the law.

No, we should preach the gospel and the law of Christ so men can be set free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Preaching the old law of sin and death to the lost would be taking a step backwards and ignoring what Christ accomplished.

Even you said:


If our focus is the Law, if we are looking at the Law, then we may miss keeping our eyes on the author and finisher of our faith.

In light of this, we should not preach this same law to the lost! We should preach Jesus Christ!



You say that because you try to take the analogy further than it was intended to be taken. Also, you are ignoring other scriptures.

The analogy teaches what it teaches, no need to go further with it. I use what that analogy teaches as well as other scriptures. None are ignored by me. We are dead to the law, and the law is dead to us. It's perfect. Now we live unto the the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, not the former law which was decaying and fading away.




We see in many places that we have died. We are dead to sin. We are dead to our old way of life. We are dead to ourselves. There are many passages that speak of our death. Romans 7 does not indicate that the law has died, only that we have died.

It indicates both as well as other scriptures.





The point is that when one dies, a covenant is broken so to speak. The covenant is till death do us part. So when we died, we were free to remarry.

We do not marry after our deaths. But, when our spouse dies then we can re-marry which is what occurs in the analogy. The woman in it is us and she does not die and her husband re-marries....but he dies and she re-marries.


Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Romans 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Brother Mark
Apr 20th 2008, 09:49 PM
Can you please explain why the law was decaying then if it wasn't dead?

You have said:

In the same verse it is decaying and fading. I don't understand how you can not believe that it has suffered a death which causes the decaying and the fading away.

I do make a distinction between the law of Moses and the law of God. ;) But first, let us be clear, it is the regulations of the covenant that are fading away and decaying. But what they represented is not fading!!!! It is because of the spirit of what they were pointing at was being revealed that they were no longer needed. However, we can still see that which cast the shadow by the shadow! Hence, they are alive and able to separate the spirit from the soul. On the one hand, they are fading away. On the other, they are the word of God that can pierce our soul and encourage our spirit!



No, we should preach the gospel and the law of Christ so men can be set free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Preaching the old law of sin and death to the lost would be taking a step backwards and ignoring what Christ accomplished.

In light of this, we should not preach this same law to the lost! We should preach Jesus Christ!

Here, I cannot agree! Until a man sees his sin, until he sees his helplessness, his need of a savior, then the preaching of Christ accomplishes little. For as Jesus said "only the sick are in need of a physician". Preach law, that the law can then do it's work and lead one to repent unto Christ. Law binds a man up in sin so that he becomes exceedingly sinful! It does it's job so well, that pure law will leave a man hopeless in his state if he is honest with himself. The condemnation that falls upon him will be such a weight that he cannot bear it! In his desperation, he will call out for mercy! It is then that the law of Christ becomes such sweet nectar! Then he can drink deeply from the well of mercy and grace in our Lord Jesus. But if he thinks he is OK, if he thinks he is righteous, then we do as the Lord did to the rich young ruler, preach the law in such a way that he sees how short he has fallen. Only then, can he be a candidate for grace. Because the command is not only "believe" but "repent and believe"!



The analogy teaches what it teaches, no need to go further with it. I use what that analogy teaches as well as other scriptures. None are ignored by me. We are dead to the law, and the law is dead to us. It's perfect. Now we live unto the the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, not the former law which was decaying and fading away.

Romans is clear that the Law is not dead. Nor is it bad. Romans 7 does not say the law died just that we died.


We do not marry after our deaths. But, when our spouse dies then we can re-marry which is what occurs in the analogy. The woman in it is us and she does not die and her husband re-marries....but he dies and she re-marries.

I know. And that is where the analogy breaks down. Paul knew full well that the dead do not marry. Yet he said that if we were not dead, we could not marry Christ! It is not a mystery that is difficult but one that is wonderful! We cannot be alive to ourself and to God at the same time. For covenant requires death to all but the one we move into covenant with.

Jesus died in order that he could marry us. We died in order that we could marry Jesus! Our marriage to the law ended and our marriage to Christ began! What a wonderful truth!

The context of the scriptures you posted clear up who died. It is Paul using the spirit of the Law to teach a deeper truth.

Rom 7:4-6
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
NASB

We died to the Law that we might serve in newness of the Spirit!

I praise his name that he did not leave me dead in my trespasses and sins. But that he caused me to die to them and the Law that he might raise me up a bride to the Lamb!

timmyb
Apr 20th 2008, 10:00 PM
where does the law of christ differ from the law of God? Where do you see Christ divert from teaching the obedience principle to the OT law?

if there is no law then how do you define obedience to God?

Naphal
Apr 20th 2008, 10:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphal http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1611270#post1611270)
Can you please explain why the law was decaying then if it wasn't dead?

You have said:

In the same verse it is decaying and fading. I don't understand how you can not believe that it has suffered a death which causes the decaying and the fading away.

I do make a distinction between the law of Moses and the law of God. ;)


Well that's good! I can see this clearly when you8 speak to Tim and some others but the lines seem a bit more blurred when you speak with me.



But first, let us be clear, it is the regulations of the covenant that are fading away and decaying. But what they represented is not fading!!!!

That's fine, I have no disagreement with that.



Hence, they are alive and able to separate the spirit from the soul. On the one hand, they are fading away. On the other, they are the word of God that can pierce our soul and encourage our spirit!

Something is either fading away (and decaying) or not. There isn't any "on the other hand" on this.




Quote:
No, we should preach the gospel and the law of Christ so men can be set free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Preaching the old law of sin and death to the lost would be taking a step backwards and ignoring what Christ accomplished.

In light of this, we should not preach this same law to the lost! We should preach Jesus Christ!
Here, I cannot agree! Until a man sees his sin, until he sees his helplessness, his need of a savior, then the preaching of Christ accomplishes little.


The preaching of Christ accomplishes everything!
Paul never taught to "preach the law" to save people. He taught to preach the gospel of Christ!


John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
John 15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
John 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.




For as Jesus said "only the sick are in need of a physician". Preach law, that the law can then do it's work and lead one to repent unto Christ. Law binds a man up in sin so that he becomes exceedingly sinful! It does it's job so well, that pure law will leave a man hopeless in his state if he is honest with himself. The condemnation that falls upon him will be such a weight that he cannot bear it! In his desperation, he will call out for mercy! It is then that the law of Christ becomes such sweet nectar! Then he can drink deeply from the well of mercy and grace in our Lord Jesus. But if he thinks he is OK, if he thinks he is righteous, then we do as the Lord did to the rich young ruler, preach the law in such a way that he sees how short he has fallen. Only then, can he be a candidate for grace. Because the command is not only "believe" but "repent and believe"!


I think you rationalize a lot here but where are we told to "preach the law" outside of the OT? I only read of Preaching the gospel and Christ.











For covenant requires death to all but the one we move into covenant with.

Actually the opposite of that is written:


Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.




Jesus died in order that he could marry us. We died in order that we could marry Jesus! Our marriage to the law ended and our marriage to Christ began! What a wonderful truth!

Yes it is wonderful but I don't think your statements are fully complete as they leave out the death of the law of Moses.

You said" the regulations of the covenant that are fading away and decaying"

Yes the regulations are the law of the covenant and they decayed...what causes something to decay? If you will answer that then I think we can break new ground :)

brakelite
Apr 21st 2008, 01:37 AM
I am glad you see the difference, as Bro Mark does, between the law of Moses and the law of God. One written on paper, the other on stone. So the one on paper was nailed to the cross, the one on stone abiding forever.
After all, how can you alter something etched in stone? And how can you nail stone to wood? The ten commandments are eternal, just as the character of God is eternal.

Regarding preaching the gospel; how do you preach Christ and Him crucified without explaining the reason He died? Did He not die to fulfil the law? To fulfil the justice that the law requires? Did He not live a perfect life in obedience to the law that His righteousness may be imputed to us? Is not sanctification an essential part of our salvation and an integral factor of the cross? Is not sanctification the imparted righteousness of Christ to us that we, in His power, may walk in obedience to the law? I would suggest that preaching the gospel without reference to the law is incomplete and cannot convert anyone.

Naphal
Apr 21st 2008, 02:35 AM
One written on paper, the other on stone. So the one on paper was nailed to the cross, the one on stone abiding forever.


Is it?

2 Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.


I believe there is a difference between the written letter of the law even in the ten commandments and the higher moral meanings of them. I believe part of them were also fulfilled and nailed to the cross just as any of the other was.



After all, how can you alter something etched in stone? And how can you nail stone to wood? The ten commandments are eternal, just as the character of God is eternal.

You drill holes through the stone and then hammer the nails but that's beside the point. I think it's clear even the ten commandments were changed since Christ did not list the 4th commandment as being needed for eternal life:


Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Matthew 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Matthew 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1: Thou shalt do no murder
2: Thou shalt not commit adultery
3: Thou shalt not steal
4: Thou shalt not bear false witness
5: Honour thy father and thy mother
6: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself

That's 6 of the 10 that were written in stone. These 6 are written upon our hearts on fleshy tables.



Exodus 20:3-17

1: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

2: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.

3: Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

4: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work.

5: Honour thy father and thy mother.

6: Thou shalt not kill.

7: Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8: Neither shalt thou steal.

9: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

10: Thou shalt not covet any thing that is thy neighbour's.


So lets compare the ones Christ listed and the ones found in the OT. OT on the right and NT on the left:

1: Thou shalt do no murder = 6: Thou shalt not kill.

2: Thou shalt not commit adultery = 7: Thou shalt not commit adultery.

3: Thou shalt not steal = 8: Neither shalt thou steal.

4: Thou shalt not bear false witness = 9: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

5: Honour thy father and thy mother = 5: Honour thy father and thy mother.

6: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself = 10: Thou shalt not covet any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Here are the 4 that Christ did not include:

1: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

I believe this is clearly covered when he said, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." since we are to be married to God and having other gods is spiritual adultery.

2: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.

The same for this commandment. It is covered through not committing spiritual adultery.

3: Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

I don't see how this is covered in the 6 commandments Christ spoke but we do know this:

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Where one would be held guilty for taking the name of God in vain in the OT, in the NT we see it is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which is unforgiveable.

4: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work.

And lastly, this commandment is not mentioned by Christ, nor commanded by Christ. This is why Christianity today and of the past did not as a whole keep the Saturday Sabbath as a day of rest from work. There is simply no NT commandment for it's literal practice.




Regarding preaching the gospel; how do you preach Christ and Him crucified without explaining the reason He died? Did He not die to fulfil the law? To fulfil the justice that the law requires?

That's exactly how you explain it making sure to highlight that he did fulfill it, made it complete. What is extended into NT law, the law of Christ, are the moral aspects of the law rather than the ceremonial commandments and those fulfilled such as the 4th OT commandment.




Did He not live a perfect life in obedience to the law that His righteousness may be imputed to us? Is not sanctification an essential part of our salvation and an integral factor of the cross? Is not sanctification the imparted righteousness of Christ to us that we, in His power, may walk in obedience to the law?

Not that last part. We are not under the law but under grace. We are not expected to walk in obedience to the law.


Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

We obey Christ, not the law. This does not give us the "license to sin" but we do not obey the law or are in obedience to it because of Christ and grace.




I would suggest that preaching the gospel without reference to the law is incomplete and cannot convert anyone.

It should be included in it's proper placement with freedom from the law and grace being at the forefront. If we weigh down the gospel with the bondage of the law we will definitely not be sharing the proper gospel.

Brother Mark
Apr 21st 2008, 02:46 AM
Well that's good! I can see this clearly when you8 speak to Tim and some others but the lines seem a bit more blurred when you speak with me.

That's because they see the eternal law of God but you do not seem to see it. Instead, you say it is gone when it is not.


Something is either fading away (and decaying) or not. There isn't any "on the other hand" on this.We know the word of God is living and sharper than any two edged sword. So either it is alive or it is not the word of God.


The preaching of Christ accomplishes everything!
Paul never taught to "preach the law" to save people. He taught to preach the gospel of Christ!The Law is our tutor. Without law, we do not know sin nor our need for a savior. A man must be lost before he can be saved. Paul is not our only example. We also have Christ, JTB, Phillip, Peter, etc. Jesus preached law to the rich young ruler. But he preached grace to the publican who would not even so much as lift his eye to heaven but beat his chest and said "God be merciful to me a sinner". To the one who thought he was righteous, Jesus preached law. To the one whom law had convicted, he preached grace. Jesus is a great example to follow.



Actually the opposite of that is written:

Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. The testator must die! That is exactly what covenant does. In order to marry Christ, we must die! In order for Christ to marry us, He had to die! There must be a death of the testator in order for the covenant to be valid. One cannot be alive to himself and alive to another. To enter into covenant or testament with someone, the agreement is to be dead to self in order to be alive to another. There must, of necessity, be the death of the testator.


Yes it is wonderful but I don't think your statements are fully complete as they leave out the death of the law of Moses.

You said" the regulations of the covenant that are fading away and decaying"

Yes the regulations are the law of the covenant and they decayed...what causes something to decay? If you will answer that then I think we can break new ground :)The process of life causes it to decay. A baby begins to decay from the moment of birth!


Now, I will ask you a question. Will you answer?

Heb 4:12
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
NASB


Is the OT law the word of God? Is it HIS WORD? If it is, then it is alive. The only way for the law to be dead is if it is not the word of God.

This is where I think you miss it Naphal. The OT is more than history. It is alive and living. There are those that think it is only about eating pork and that it does or does not apply today. But they miss the point of holiness that has always applied! The thing of pork is nothing. But the point of holiness is everything! What we eat matters in the spirit!!! That Law has never changed and will never change. That is why it is repeated in the NT. God illustrated holiness through pork. But pork is nothing. But the law of holiness, first written down in the OT was quoted by Peter in the NT because the OT law is alive, it is living, and it separates the soul from the spirit. The pork part is gone. In that you are right. What I think you are missing is the spirit of the Law lives on and it lives on forever.

Naphal
Apr 21st 2008, 03:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphal http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1611350#post1611350)
Well that's good! I can see this clearly when you8 speak to Tim and some others but the lines seem a bit more blurred when you speak with me.

That's because they see the eternal law of God but you do not seem to see it. Instead, you say it is gone when it is not.


Oh, I see an eternal law of God but not the letter of the one written in the OT. I see a new one written in the flesh tables of our hearts. I refer to it as the law of Christ or the new covenant law.






Quote:
Something is either fading away (and decaying) or not. There isn't any "on the other hand" on this.
We know the word of God is living and sharper than any two edged sword. So either it is alive or it is not the word of God.


So what did you mean when you said You said "the regulations of the covenant that are fading away and decaying" ? Decay comes from death. Even the concept of "fading away" is death. It is good you have the first half of are symbolic death to the law but there is the other side of that where the law is dead to us as well, as it decays and fades away. The new is alive and forevermore and Amen for that.





Quote:
The preaching of Christ accomplishes everything!
Paul never taught to "preach the law" to save people. He taught to preach the gospel of Christ!
The Law is our tutor. Without law, we do not know sin nor our need for a savior.


We have law but not the law which was the tutor....it is also called a school master which we are no longer under:


Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.



Jesus preached law to the rich young ruler.

He preached part of the ten commandments to him...6 of them. And he spoke no more of the old law to him. So, he didn't "preach the law" but preached only what would be contained as part of the new covenant law.





But he preached grace to the publican who would not even so much as lift his eye to heaven but beat his chest and said "God be merciful to me a sinner". To the one who thought he was righteous, Jesus preached law. To the one whom law had convicted, he preached grace. Jesus is a great example to follow.

Just a little correction:

Jesus did preach to a young man who thought he was righteous:


Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Matthew 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Matthew 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Matthew 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.



But he preached grace to the publican who would not even so much as lift his eye to heaven but beat his chest and said "God be merciful to me a sinner".

But Jesus did not preach to the publican as he was a figure in a story Christ was telling:


Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

So, one was a real conversation where Jesus preached to a young man about part of the ten commandments but the other is a parable he was telling.





Quote:
Actually the opposite of that is written:

Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
The testator must die! That is exactly what covenant does. In order to marry Christ, we must die! In order for Christ to marry us, He had to die!


Yes but you initially said:


For covenant requires death to all but the one we move into covenant with.

You are saying here that all else must die except the testator and that's incorrect. The one that must die is the testator or the one starting the testament or covenant. You're kinda mixing two different things together...

This is an accurate statement if worded thus:

"For covenant requires death to the one we move into covenant with."

Then we have agreement with the scripture:


Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.


testator:

1.a person who makes a will. 2.a person who has died leaving a valid will.










Quote:
Yes it is wonderful but I don't think your statements are fully complete as they leave out the death of the law of Moses.

You said" the regulations of the covenant that are fading away and decaying"

Yes the regulations are the law of the covenant and they decayed...what causes something to decay? If you will answer that then I think we can break new ground :)
The process of life causes it to decay. A baby begins to decay from the moment of birth!



That's an interesting answer but a living person does not decay...they age for sure but decay is to rot and "fade away".




Now, I will ask you a question. Will you answer?

Heb 4:12
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
NASB


Is the OT law the word of God? Is it HIS WORD? If it is, then it is alive. The only way for the law to be dead is if it is not the word of God.

Yes it's his word but you are making that which faded away not faded away and that's not accurate to the times we live in. You cant have it both ways. If something faded away then that was God's will. What is not faded away is the living Word for today and all time. The faded part is the history of his Word.




This is where I think you miss it Naphal. The OT is more than history. It is alive and living.

And I think you miss that some of it is not living by command of God himself.



But pork is nothing. But the law of holiness, first written down in the OT was quoted by Peter in the NT because the OT law is alive, it is living, and it separates the soul from the spirit. The pork part is gone. In that you are right. What I think you are missing is the spirit of the Law lives on and it lives on forever.


I speak of that Spirit of the law which continues, but you challenge me on saying the part I think of in the "pork" sense does not. If I call it "pork" from now on will you understand me better?

I say the NT says the OT law (pork) is gone and you deny it but when you use the analogy of pork verses spiritual law then we agree. Naturally the spiritual aspect of the law from the beginning is carried forth into the new covenant law, the law of Christ. Even the Sabbath is there but it has been fulfilled into something other than a literal day of rest.

I can tell the difference between us is small but I think you think it is larger than it is. Perhaps it's more in the terminology but what more can I do but discuss it and pray that it is received.

Brother Mark
Apr 21st 2008, 03:48 AM
I speak of that Spirit of the law which continues, but you challenge me on saying the part I think of in the "pork" sense does not. If I call it "pork" from now on will you understand me better?

I say the NT says the OT law (pork) is gone and you deny it but when you use the analogy of pork verses spiritual law then we agree. Naturally the spiritual aspect of the law from the beginning is carried forth into the new covenant law, the law of Christ. Even the Sabbath is there but it has been fulfilled into something other than a literal day of rest.

I can tell the difference between us is small but I think you think it is larger than it is. Perhaps it's more in the terminology but what more can I do but discuss it and pray that it is received.

If the spirit of the law is still alive, then we can learn from the OT what God is saying because it too is alive and powerful to the separating of the spirit and soul.

Is the OT capable of separating the spirit from the soul? Is it the living word of God?

That's where we disagree. You say it's only history that came from God's mouth. I say that what came from God's mouth in the OT, is useful for doctrine, for reproof, for the separating of the spirit and soul and is alive!

We are worlds apart Naphal. Similar in some things.

The old testament pork laws are about more than pork.

The old testament sacrifices are about more than animals.

The NT explains it in detail. The OT illustrates it in detail.

To understand what God is looking for in priests, we need the OT requirements of priest. God gives us a few clues in the NT and with them, we unlock the entire OT priesthood. From that law, we understand how to minister to God in the spirit for today!

The pork part, dead. But the spirit part, alive and well! The old covenant is gone. But the spiritual part of the old has never faded and never will. That is what Hebrews is teaching. The real tabernacle is in heaven and God is desiring real priest to minister to Himself. The laws are the same but the application is different.

Yet, all the world is still under the condemnation of the old covenant. The curse of the law has not been done away with for all. Just those of us that are in Christ.

Naphal
Apr 21st 2008, 03:52 AM
The pork part, dead. But the spirit part, alive and well! The old covenant is gone. But the spiritual part of the old has never faded and never will.

This is all I have been saying but when I say it you disagree with me lol

Like any good food, lets allow time to help digestion and we'll discuss these things another time :)

brakelite
Apr 21st 2008, 08:48 AM
Is it?

2 Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.


I believe there is a difference between the written letter of the law even in the ten commandments and the higher moral meanings of them. I believe part of them were also fulfilled and nailed to the cross just as any of the other was.

2 Cor 3:3 quoted above is the essence of sanctification isn't it. The work of the Holy Spirit in the life to conform us to the image of the character of Jesus. That is grace. Not only saved and justified by grace, but sanctified by grace. The righteousness of Christ Himself given to us as a gift.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Rom 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

2 Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


I agree that there is a difference between the letter and the spirit. The Pharisees (Saul/Paul being one of them) prided themselves on following the letter of the law. Paul himself professed himself blameless regarding the law. But as you know, Jesus came to show that outward obedience for the sake of pride, fear, or social standing or as a means to salvation was doomed to failure because the spirit of the law was not being kept.
Take yourself as an example. Of course I don't know you that well personally, but I think I am safe in believing that you have never killed a man in the physical sense. But I believe I am also safe in thinking that you have likely been angry at some stage in your life with someone to the extent that an onlooker (such as the Holy Spirit) may judge your reaction to someone else's misdemeanor as being an overreaction? I know I have. Often. As I think most have, thus Jesus showed that we are nearly everyone of us guilty of violating the 6th commandment. The same (without going into embarrassing detail)
can be said for the 7th commandment.
I also agree with you that Jesus taught that we are now to observe the spirit of the law, and not as the Pharisees did, observe the letter. But tell me, can you,or anyone observe the spirit of the law (eg not getting angry with someone) without keeping the letter?






You drill holes through the stone and then hammer the nails but that's beside the point. I think it's clear even the ten commandments were changed since Christ did not list the 4th commandment as being needed for eternal life:

Perhaps not, but isn't it taught that we are to follow His example? You can claim for the rest of your life that Jesus did not keep the Sabbath, but the Bible will proclaim loud and clear that Jesus did not sin. Of course you may claim rightly that He kept the spirit of the law, but as I mentioned, how could He keep the spirit of the law and not the letter? Yes, He healed on the Sabbath. Yes, He defended His disciples when they 'harvested' some corn. But I am absolutely confident in saying that Jesus, nor His disciples, nor the early church, worked in their secular profession and employment on the Sabbath. They set the day aside for fellowship and worship. They remembered to keep the day holy. They were keeping the spirit of the law by obeying from a heart of love that which the object of that love commanded. They did not keep the Sabbath out of fear nor to be saved nor out of selfish pride.


Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Matthew 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Matthew 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1: Thou shalt do no murder
2: Thou shalt not commit adultery
3: Thou shalt not steal
4: Thou shalt not bear false witness
5: Honour thy father and thy mother
6: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself

That's 6 of the 10 that were written in stone. These 6 are written upon our hearts on fleshy tables.



Exodus 20:3-17

1: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

2: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.

3: Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

4: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work.

5: Honour thy father and thy mother.

6: Thou shalt not kill.

7: Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8: Neither shalt thou steal.

9: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

10: Thou shalt not covet any thing that is thy neighbour's.


So lets compare the ones Christ listed and the ones found in the OT. OT on the right and NT on the left:

1: Thou shalt do no murder = 6: Thou shalt not kill.

2: Thou shalt not commit adultery = 7: Thou shalt not commit adultery.

3: Thou shalt not steal = 8: Neither shalt thou steal.

4: Thou shalt not bear false witness = 9: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

5: Honour thy father and thy mother = 5: Honour thy father and thy mother.

6: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself = 10: Thou shalt not covet any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Here are the 4 that Christ did not include:

1: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

I believe this is clearly covered when he said, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." since we are to be married to God and having other gods is spiritual adultery.

2: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.

The same for this commandment. It is covered through not committing spiritual adultery.

3: Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

I don't see how this is covered in the 6 commandments Christ spoke but we do know this:

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Where one would be held guilty for taking the name of God in vain in the OT, in the NT we see it is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which is unforgiveable.

4: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work.

And lastly, this commandment is not mentioned by Christ, nor commanded by Christ. This is why Christianity today and of the past did not as a whole keep the Saturday Sabbath as a day of rest from work. There is simply no NT commandment for it's literal practice.

You left out the most important commandment of the entire word of God. It is in the OT and repeated in the New. And it is the reason why one should remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. And that commandment is:

De 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
De 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.

Mt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mr 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Lu 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Jn 4:17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.





Not that last part. We are not under the law but under grace. We are not expected to walk in obedience to the law.


Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

We obey Christ, not the law. This does not give us the "license to sin" but we do not obey the law or are in obedience to it because of Christ and grace.


You say corerectly that we do not have licence to sin, but spoil it by sayingwe don't have to keep the law. Sin is transgression against the law. i Jn 3:4






It should be included in it's proper placement with freedom from the law and grace being at the forefront. If we weigh down the gospel with the bondage of the law we will definitely not be sharing the proper gospel.

Obeying the law is not bondage, It is freedom from sin, and it is sin that destroys. It is sin that is bondage.

Naphal
Apr 21st 2008, 09:22 AM
I agree that there is a difference between the letter and the spirit. The Pharisees (Saul/Paul being one of them) prided themselves on following the letter of the law.


Yes, agreed.




I also agree with you that Jesus taught that we are now to observe the spirit of the law, and not as the Pharisees did, observe the letter. But tell me, can you,or anyone observe the spirit of the law (eg not getting angry with someone) without keeping the letter?

I can only refer to what is written about the letter.


Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

If our service in the Spirit happens to also keep the letter of the new in some form, then there is no harm but to keep the letter outside of the Spirit would be negative. However, that is a slippery slope for those that would keep the letter and try to claim it's always done in the Spirit also which I think would be self deception.




Perhaps not, but isn't it taught that we are to follow His example?

Yes and that's why Christianity does not keep the Saturday Sabbath...some would say it went into Apostasy for that very reason but I don't agree.




You can claim for the rest of your life that Jesus did not keep the Sabbath, but the Bible will proclaim loud and clear that Jesus did not sin. Of course you may claim rightly that He kept the spirit of the law, but as I mentioned, how could He keep the spirit of the law and not the letter?



Easy. He explained that it was ok to profane the Sabbath if there was a higher moral reason for it. He gave examples and pointed out their own hypocrisy. However, there was also a change made to the Sabbath when Christ became our Sabbath. At that time one did not need to stop their work on the Sabbath even for common reasons because the Sabbath rest was fulfilled and was Christ. This I know is hotly disagreed with by Sabbatarians and Jews but this is a brief listing of why the majority of Christianity does not rest from work on Saturdays :)





Yes, He healed on the Sabbath. Yes, He defended His disciples when they 'harvested' some corn. But I am absolutely confident in saying that Jesus, nor His disciples, nor the early church, worked in their secular profession and employment on the Sabbath.

I am certain the early church and onward did very much return to working on Saturdays if they so desired and stopped working on Sundays.



You left out the most important commandment of the entire word of God. It is in the OT and repeated in the New.

It's a wonderful one however, it wasn't left out simply because it isn't in either of the two portions of scripture I was comparing :) It isn't one of the ten commandments and wasn't in the 6 of the ten commandments that Jesus listed.






You say corerectly that we do not have licence to sin, but spoil it by sayingwe don't have to keep the law. Sin is transgression against the law. i Jn 3:4

We don't keep the OT law...that is what is meant when Paul says we are freed from the law and not under the rule of the law....not any law at all but the law of the old covenant. We are subject to the new covenant law which is mainly spiritual in nature but Christ reiterated how one must not steal or murder etc, but we also know of grace and forgiveness of sins.



Obeying the law is not bondage, It is freedom from sin, and it is sin that destroys. It is sin that is bondage.

It's all related.


Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

valleybldr
Apr 21st 2008, 09:36 AM
At that time one did not need to stop their work on the Sabbath even for common reasons because the Sabbath rest was fulfilled and was Christ. This I know is hotly disagreed with by Sabbatarians and Jews but this is a brief listing of why the majority of Christianity does not rest from work on Saturdays :) So did God change the nature of the post-Cross body not to need the enjoyment of rest every seven days? The Creator wants us to care for our physical bodies (a type of the Temple) and has instructed us in ways that lead to our health and well being. todd

Naphal
Apr 21st 2008, 09:55 AM
So did God change the nature of the post-Cross body not to need the enjoyment of rest every seven days? The Creator wants us to care for our physical bodies (a type of the Temple) and has instructed us in ways that lead to our health and well being. todd

Like I said and history shows, traditionally Christianity rested on Sundays and mainly does today. When to rest isn't commanded now so we rest when we need to, all on different days, different parts of days etc.

To answer the second part, Ive heard of missionaries that were so empowered by the Holy spirit that they could work every day for months and did not feel ill effects from it. Thank you God for miracles!

valleybldr
Apr 21st 2008, 11:23 AM
Like I said and history shows, traditionally Christianity rested on Sundays and mainly does today. When to rest isn't commanded now so we rest when we need to, all on different days, different parts of days etc.

Tradition is no gauge of truth. God lovingly gives many gifts and we can accept or reject them as we will. todd

walked
Apr 21st 2008, 12:23 PM
Hi Naphal, I've studied the scriptures you posted and I am still believing that the Law is not the 'old covenant'

That was the only covenant made with Noah and it was made to all his seed and all life on the earth for all time. That covenant applies to us all and will be in effect until the age ends.




In regards to the covenant made with Abraham, no it was not a re-establishing of the cov. made with Noah because it was a new and separate covenant that was formed for a completely different reason.





I'm afriad the law which are the rules of the Sinai covenant is the one that is called "the old covenant/testament" in NT scripture.


2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:


This is speaking of the ten commandments of the law of the old covenant.


2 Corinthians 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2 Corinthians 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2 Corinthians 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2 Corinthians 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2 Corinthians 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.


Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Hebrews 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Hebrews 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec)
Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Keep in mind that the word here "testament" is the same word that is also translated "covenant". Same thing. We are reading of the old covenant and law and the new covenant in Christ.


1242
1242 diatheke {dee-ath-ay'-kay}
from 1303; TDNT - 2:106,157; n f
AV - covenant 20, testament 13; 33
1) a disposition, arrangement, of any sort, which one wishes to
be valid, the last disposition which one makes of his earthly
possessions after his death, a testament or will
2) a compact, a covenant, a testament
2a) God's covenant with Noah, etc.


Easton's dictionary

Is the old covenant the Law or, is the old covenant Gods promises to Adam n Eve, Abraham, Isac, Jacob, Joseph and David ?
Jesus fulfilled the old covenant!
Jesus said Himself He wont change one jot in the Law.
The introduction of the Law (laws of Moses) I see as a different covenant, separate from Gods covenant to Abraham (old covenant), Gods promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

This post is to show with Gods word in scripture why I see the 'old covenant' as Gods promise to Abraham to:
1. I will Make his seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, [then] shall thy seed also be numbered.
2. I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
3. I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing.
And the 'covenant of Law' God promises to:
1. Create a special treasured people to God among all people, a kingdom of priest.
2. And to receive long days and to receive His mercy, kindness and His faithfulness with Gods blessing on the obedient ones keeping these laws.
3. To keep peace among men.
4. To Honor God and His faithfulness to His covenant to Abraham with the introduction of the codes of passover


Gen 3:15
And I (GOD) will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The Generations from Adam/Eve (her seed/children) to Seth to Enoc to Noah to Shem to Abram/Abraham

Gods covenant to (Abram/Abraham), and his seed/children
The covenant to Abraham was brought to preserve Adam/Eves seed from Abraham to David to Christ Jesus to bless Gods creation with His revelation of salvation and restoration to fallen creation, which lead from Abraham to Isaac to Jacob to Joseph to David to Christ Jesus who fulfilled it.
Gen 12:1
Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Gen 12:2
And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Gen 12:3
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Gen 12:4
So Abram departed,as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him

Gen 13:14
And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
Gen 13:15
For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Gen 13:16
And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, [then] shall thy seed also be numbered.

Gen 15:18
In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

The Generations from Abraham to Isaac to Jacob to Joseph
Then came (Moses)
Exd 2:23
And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel
(Jacob/Israels children/seed) sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.
Exd 2:24
And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

Exd 3:15
And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever, and this [is] my memorial unto all generations

Exd 4:31
And the people believed: and when they heard that the LORD had visited the children of Israel, and that he had looked upon their affliction, then they bowed their heads and worshipped.
Exd 6:4
And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.
Exd 6:5
And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.

Exd 6:8
And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I [am] the LORD.

Exd 15:17
Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, [in] the place, O LORD, [which] thou hast made for thee to dwell in, [in] the Sanctuary, O Lord, [which] thy hands have established.




And why I see the Law as a separate covenant and not the 'old covenant' is:
The Covenant of Law promises to:
1. Create a special treasured people to God among all people, a kingdom of priest.
2. And to receive long days and to receive His mercy, kindness and His faithfulness with Gods blessing on the obedient ones keeping these laws.
3. To keep peace among men.
4. To Honor God and His faithfulness to His covenant to Abraham with the introduction of the codes of passover

The covenant of Law was brought in four phases by Moses.

First to Honor God and His faithfulness to His covenant to Abraham with the introduction of the codes of passover:
Exd 13:3
And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this [place]: there shall no leavened bread be eaten.
Exd 13:4
This day came ye out in the month Abib.
Exd 13:5
And it shall be when the LORD shall bring thee into the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee, a land flowing with milk and honey, that thou shalt keep this service in this month.
Exd 13:6
Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day [shall be] a feast to the LORD.
Exd 13:7
Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven seen with thee in all thy quarters.
Exd 13:8
And thou shalt shew thy son in that day, saying, [This is done] because of that [which] the LORD did unto me when I came forth out of Egypt.

Second to keep peace among men
Exd 18:21
Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place [such] over them, [to be] rulers of thousands, [and] rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
Exd 18:22
And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, [that] every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear [the burden] with thee.
Exd 18:23
If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee [so], then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace.

Third for Israel to be a special treasured people to God among all people, a kingdom of priest, Also to receive long days and receive Gods goodness, mercy and His faithfulness, with Gods blessing on the obedient ones keeping these laws.
Exd 19:3
And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
Exd 19:4
Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [how] I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
Exd 19:5
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:
Exd 19:6
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Exd 19:26 through Exd 20:17 :The ten commandments given to the people with Gods promise that if they are obedient to them the people will: Receive long days and receive Gods goodness, mercy and His faithfulness. as found in Exd 19:26 -20:17

Fourth the book of Leviticus......
Gives the laws and regulations for worship, including instructions on ceremonial cleanness, moral laws, holy days, the sabbath year and the Year of Jubilee... with Gods blessing on the obedient ones keeping them found also in Deuteronomy.

timmyb
Apr 21st 2008, 06:52 PM
But notice he fulfilled the law too... but he established it by restoring it to what it should have been in the first place and he built on it as well to give us an example

Naphal
Apr 21st 2008, 07:11 PM
Tradition is no gauge of truth.

Sure but you wanted to know if Christianity still was able to rest their human bodies and the answer was yes because they did it on another day.

Naphal
Apr 21st 2008, 07:56 PM
Hi Naphal, I've studied the scriptures you posted and I am still believing that the Law is not the 'old covenant'




The law is the regulations or rules of a covenant. They are used interchangeably in scripture even though there are technical differences but the old covenant law is an unremoveable part of the old covenant. Thus, when the old covenant faded away and was replaced by the new covenant, the old law went with it. However, the Spirit of the law remains and some of the same letter of it such as rules against committing murder and theft. This constitutes the new covenant law or law of Christ. In some ways it is similar to the older law and in many ways it is strikingly different.







Is the old covenant the Law or, is the old covenant Gods promises to Adam n Eve, Abraham, Isac, Jacob, Joseph and David ?



The "old covenant" is the Sinai covenant, the one related to Moses and Israel that includes the law of Moses, often called "the law" in the NT.




Jesus fulfilled the old covenant!

Well, not exactly. He has fulfilled a lot of it which is why many things are not carried forth from the old into the new. But, the covenant being a marriage contract between God and Israel was broken through Adultery to false gods and that ended the covenant.

Zechariah 11:4 Thus saith the LORD my God; Feed the flock of the slaughter;
Zechariah 11:5 Whose possessors slay them, and hold themselves not guilty: and they that sell them say, Blessed be the LORD; for I am rich: and their own shepherds pity them not.
Zechariah 11:6 For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith the LORD: but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbour's hand, and into the hand of his king: and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them.
Zechariah 11:7 And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock.
Zechariah 11:8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
Zechariah 11:9 Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.
Zechariah 11:10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
Zechariah 11:11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.

Israel and Judah committed Adultery and God divorced them ending the covenant he had with them. The details of this is given elsewhere such as Jeremiah 3.


Zechariah 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
Zechariah 11:13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
Zechariah 11:14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.


Furthermore he broke the bond between them as well!


Clarke
Zec 11:10 -
I took my staff - Beauty, and cut it asunder - And thus I showed that I determined no longer to preserve them in their free and glorious state. And thus I brake my covenant with them, which they had broken on their part already.

Gill
Zec 11:10 - And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder,.... Signifying that he dropped his pastoral care of them: the Gospel indeed, which is meant by the staff "Beauty", cannot be made void; it will have its designed effect; it is the everlasting Gospel, and will endure; its blessings, promises, doctrines, ordinances, and ministers, shall continue, till all the elect are gathered in, even unto the second coming of Christ: but then it may be removed from one place to another; it may be taken from one people, and given to another; and which is generally owing to contempt of it, unfruitfulness under it, and indifference to it; and this is the case here, it designs the taking away of the Gospel from the Jews, who despised it, and the carrying of it into the Gentile world; see Mat_21:43,
that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people; not the covenant of works, that was made with all mankind in Adam; that was broke, not by the Lord, but by man; and was broke before the Gospel was published; nor the covenant of grace, for this was not made with all the people, nor can it be broken; but the Mosaic economy, the Sinai covenant, called the old covenant, which gradually vanished away: it was of right abolished at the death of Christ; when the Gospel was entirely removed, it more appeared to be so; and this was thoroughly done at the destruction of the city and temple. The last clause may be rendered, "which" covenant "I have made with all the people"; the Gentiles, having promised and given orders to send the Gospel unto them, which was accordingly done.




Jesus said Himself He wont change one jot in the Law.


Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

The issue is whether he is talking about the old covenant law of Moses or if he is speaking of the new covenant law.

Paul wrote a change of the law was needed so being that the scriptures cannot contradict each other we have to be able to support Paul saying the law was changed and that not one jot from the law would pass. This is solved by understanding they were talking about the two different laws. One changed and one will not. I have also heard people say they believe the old law was fulfilled which allowed for changes as it is written "one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." which means when it is fulfilled jots and tittles can pass away from the law, IE: be removed.





The introduction of the Law (laws of Moses) I see as a different covenant, separate from Gods covenant to Abraham (old covenant), Gods promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Indeed it was a separate covenant.

Naphal
Apr 21st 2008, 07:59 PM
But notice he fulfilled the law too... but he established it by restoring it to what it should have been in the first place and he built on it as well to give us an example

So you believe he fulfilled the law, returned it to it's original state and that he added to the law?

walked
Apr 21st 2008, 09:41 PM
But notice he fulfilled the law too... but he established it by restoring it to what it should have been in the first place and he built on it as well to give us an example

Amen, thank you... I should have included that point on my last post.
Even though Christ Jesus fulfilled the law by keeping it perfectly, I still find righteousness/blessings and favor in keeping Gods commandments, my motivation in keeping His commandments is to walk worthy of what Christ has done for me, and so I will be a light to the world around me and I am not motivated in keeping His law/commandments for my salvation/restoration.

Naphal
Apr 21st 2008, 09:54 PM
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

walked
Apr 21st 2008, 09:57 PM
Indeed it was a separate covenant.


Naphal,
Your admitting that the covenant to Abraham was and is a separate/different covenant from the covenant of law, this is good !

But all the post of yours that I have read here seem to miss these fact below.
The Covenant of Law promises to:
1. Create a special treasured people to God among all people, a kingdom of priest.
2. And to receive long days and to receive His mercy, kindness and His faithfulness with Gods blessing on the obedient ones keeping these laws.
3. To keep peace among men.
4. To Honor God and His faithfulness to His covenant to Abraham with the introduction of the codes of passover.
People referring to the Law as 'the old covenant' is confusion and false.
(the two terms are not interchangeable) when found in scripture as you propose!

Gods covenant to Abraham (old covenant) passed away/was fulfilled by the birth of Christ Jesus.
The covenant of Law (laws of Moses) were fulfilled but not passed away, Christ fulfilled the law by His righteous, perfect walk on earth to fill the required righteousness God requires for His justice to bring salvation to His creation.
This does not mean it the law is past away

Naphal
Apr 21st 2008, 10:07 PM
Naphal,
Your admitting that the covenant to Abraham was and is a separate/different covenant from the covenant of law, this is good !

Yes they are two different things.





[QUOTE]
People referring to the Law as 'the old covenant' is confusion and false.
(the two terms are not interchangeable) when found in scripture as you propose!


Well, all I can do is show you that it is true by quoting scripture:

Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.


Here something called the covenant is also called the law and we know this is the Sinai covenant and the law of Moses because of the dating of it coming 430 years after the promise to Abraham.

Then we only have to prove that the Sinai covenant is the one referred to as the old covenant (the NT uses the term old testament but is the same exact thing)

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

This also draws attention between the two covenants, one is the Sinai and one is the new covenant.




2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2 Corinthians 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2 Corinthians 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

And here we see the old testament, the one abolished, is the one related to Moses which is the Sinai covenant/testament.


I know there are very good studies and works by Protestant Scholars that can also demonstrate these facts to you. I don't know off hand of any but I'll look and perhaps someone reading knows of one.

walked
Apr 21st 2008, 10:10 PM
Yes they are two different things.
[quote]





Well, all I can do is show you that it is true by quoting scripture:

Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.


Here something called the covenant is also called the law and we know this is the Sinai covenant and the law of Moses because of the dating of it coming 430 years after the promise to Abraham.

Then we only have to prove that the Sinai covenant is the one referred to as the old covenant (the NT uses the term old testament but is the same exact thing)

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

This also draws attention between the two covenants, one is the Sinai and one is the new covenant.




2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2 Corinthians 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2 Corinthians 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

And here we see the old testament, the one abolished, is the one related to Moses which is the Sinai covenant/testament.


I know there are very good studies and works by Protestant Scholars that can also demonstrate these facts to you. I don't know off hand of any but I'll look and perhaps someone reading knows of one.Ok, I have done my best to share with you what I know.

That Gods covenant to Abraham (old covenant) passed away/was fulfilled by the birth of Christ Jesus.
The covenant of Law (laws of Moses) were fulfilled but not passed away, Christ fulfilled the law by His righteous, perfect walk on earth to fill the righteousness God requires for His justice to bring salvation to His creation.
This does not mean it the law is past away.

Peace

Naphal
Apr 21st 2008, 10:18 PM
A couple additional verses to show the law of Moses is also the covenant of Sinai (also called Horeb)


2 Chronicles 5:10 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables which Moses put therein at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of Egypt.


Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.


This next is a whole chapter but in it you will see that the "words of the covenant" are also known as the law.


Deuteronomy 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
Deuteronomy 29:2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
Deuteronomy 29:3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
Deuteronomy 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
Deuteronomy 29:5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.
Deuteronomy 29:6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 29:7 And when ye came unto this place, Sihon the king of Heshbon, and Og the king of Bashan, came out against us unto battle, and we smote them:
Deuteronomy 29:8 And we took their land, and gave it for an inheritance unto the Reubenites, and to the Gadites, and to the half tribe of Manasseh.
Deuteronomy 29:9 Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do.
Deuteronomy 29:10 Ye stand this day all of you before the LORD your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel,
Deuteronomy 29:11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
Deuteronomy 29:12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day:
Deuteronomy 29:13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
Deuteronomy 29:14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
Deuteronomy 29:15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:
Deuteronomy 29:16 (For ye know how we have dwelt in the land of Egypt; and how we came through the nations which ye passed by;
Deuteronomy 29:17 And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them:)
Deuteronomy 29:18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
Deuteronomy 29:19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst:
Deuteronomy 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.
Deuteronomy 29:21 And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:
Deuteronomy 29:22 So that the generation to come of your children that shall rise up after you, and the stranger that shall come from a far land, shall say, when they see the plagues of that land, and the sicknesses which the LORD hath laid upon it;
Deuteronomy 29:23 And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:
Deuteronomy 29:24 Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this land? what meaneth the heat of this great anger?
Deuteronomy 29:25 Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:
Deuteronomy 29:26 For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them:
Deuteronomy 29:27 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:
Deuteronomy 29:28 And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.
Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Naphal
Apr 21st 2008, 10:37 PM
That Gods covenant to Abraham (old covenant) passed away/was fulfilled by the birth of Christ Jesus.


The Abrahamic covenant isn't the one called the old covenant or the one that was replaced with the new covenant. It was the Sinai covenant. I don't know of any scholars that believe the way you do or any scriptures that would suggest that concept.


Matthew Henry

[QUOTE]
2Co 3:12-18 -
In these verses the apostle draws two inferences from what he had said about the Old and New Testament: -
I. Concerning the duty of the ministers of the gospel to use great plainness or clearness of speech. They ought not, like Moses, to put a veil upon their faces, or obscure and darken those things which they should make plain. The gospel is a more clear dispensation than the law; the things of God are revealed in the New Testament, not in types and shadows, and ministers are much to blame if they do not set spiritual things, and gospel-truth and grace, in the clearest light that is possible. Though the Israelites could not look stedfastly to the end of what was commanded, but is now abolished, yet we may. We may see the meaning of those types and shadows by the accomplishment, seeing the veil is done away in, Christ and he is come, who was the end of the law for righteousness to all those who believe, and whom Moses and all the prophets pointed to, and wrote of.



JFB


the veil therefore remains untaken away from them, because they will not come to Christ, who does away, with the law as a mere letter. If they once saw that the law is done away in Him, the veil would be no longer on their hearts in reading it publicly in their synagogues (so "reading" means, Act_15:21).


Clarke



By resting in the letter, shutting their eyes against the light that was granted to them, they contracted a hardness or stupidity of heart. And the veil that was on the face of Moses, which prevented the glory of his face from shining out, may be considered as emblematical of the veil of darkness and ignorance that is on their hearts, and which hinders the glory of the Gospel from shining in.Until this day remaineth the same veil - They are still ignorant of the spiritual meaning and intention of their own law, called here παλαια διαθηκη, the old covenant. See the word explained in the preface to St. Matthew




The offering of the body of Jesus once for all. It will make little odds in the meaning if we say, he taketh away the first covenant, that he may establish the second covenant; he takes away the first dispensation, that he may establish the second; he takes away the law, that he may establish the Gospel. In all these cases the sense is nearly the same: I prefer the first.

timmyb
Apr 22nd 2008, 04:55 PM
So you believe he fulfilled the law, returned it to it's original state and that he added to the law?

which means that I have to retract a few of my previous statements... youthful zeal :D

but obedience to God is still defined by the law of Moses... that still stands

Naphal
Apr 22nd 2008, 09:41 PM
which means that I have to retract a few of my previous statements... youthful zeal :D

but obedience to God is still defined by the law of Moses... that still stands

No, it's defined by the law of Christ which took the place of the law of Moses.

We now are obedient to faith in Christ and his law.


Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Romans 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Romans 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:


Christ was obedient to the law of Moses so we don't have to be, that's why it's written so many times that we are not under the law of Moses. That means it doesn't rule or reign over us, it's not our master and is not our "head".


May I ask how new you are to the faith? Do you have much background in the study of the foundations of Christianity? I am just curious why and how you have these beliefs about the law of Moses.

timmyb
Apr 22nd 2008, 10:27 PM
no... because heaven and earth may pass away but the law will never pass away...

I have been a Christian for 2 years

why do I say this? Because God doesn't change.. he doesn't use words idly. I'm not saying I'm under the law... when I walk in the spirit I fulfill the law... i'm not calling people into legalism... i'm just putting the law in the proper focus... when we walk in the spirit we fulfill the law because the spirit is the enabler of obedience

Naphal
Apr 22nd 2008, 11:42 PM
no... because heaven and earth may pass away but the law will never pass away...



Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.


There is a reason why there is no NT command to be "obedient to the law of Moses" simply because we are not to be. That doesn't mean we have no law, just not that law.



I have been a Christian for 2 years

Thank you.



why do I say this? Because God doesn't change.. he doesn't use words idly.

God didn't change. What God expected from his people changed. Much is the same but it's the details that changed. This is why Paul wrote the law had to change:


Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

But what those changes are is where we differ.

timmyb
Apr 23rd 2008, 12:27 AM
those changes were made in the ceremonial law... that was done with...

Moses' law wasn't changed... the methods in which that law was fulfilled was... everything that Jesus and Paul said do was to make following the law easier... walking in the Spirit fulfills the law in the manner that Christ did... there is nothing in the moral law of Moses that passed away...

and his words... are the law.... in case you missed that connection...

brakelite
Apr 23rd 2008, 01:29 AM
no... because heaven and earth may pass away but the law will never pass away...

I have been a Christian for 2 years

why do I say this? Because God doesn't change.. he doesn't use words idly. I'm not saying I'm under the law... when I walk in the spirit I fulfill the law... i'm not calling people into legalism... i'm just putting the law in the proper focus... when we walk in the spirit we fulfill the law because the spirit is the enabler of obedience

Hi Tim
I like much of what you have promoted on this thread. In particular the quote above re heaven and earth. This on it's own ought to be enough to satisfy and put to rest any and all argument concerning the permanency of the law of God.
Sadly, it is ignored by those who would choose to believe only those scriptures with which they feel comfortable and those which suit their lifestyles. Too few people are willing to sacrifice their cherished misconceptions about the holiness of God and our obligations toward Him in favour of humbly accepting the scriptures as they read. What so many fail to comprehend is the immensity of the power available to us that we may live according to the law. As you so rightly said, if we walk in the Spirit we cannot but help walk in accordance to the will of God, as the Spirit of God that dwells in us has written that law upon our hearts and minds. The very same law that was written on the tables of stone; the very same law by which the kingdom of God is governed; the very same law that will be used as the standard in the judgement ; the very same law that is a reflection of the character of God; the very same law that is at the foundation of the throne in heaven right now.
God requires of His creation today the same as that which was required in Eden. Perfect and willing obedience. The difference today is that God gives us the ability and the power and the will to do so. And as we focus upon Him and abide in Him the natural sinful inclinations of the old life fade away and we find as we take up the nature and character of God through eating His word, that His righteousness is established in us and we can be 'holy, as He is holy'.

Naphal
Apr 23rd 2008, 01:50 AM
those changes were made in the ceremonial law... that was done with...

Well the Sabbath rest on Saturdays was ceremonial. A Sabbath still exists but it is spiritual in nature now. That was one of the changes made. Sacrificial changes were also made as I am sure you know. The only changes not made would be moral changes as God's idea of morality is constant and unchanging.



Moses' law wasn't changed... the


Yes it was. All of the law changed except the moral part.


there is nothing in the moral law of Moses that passed away...


Right, not any part of the moral law but all else changed.

Naphal
Apr 23rd 2008, 01:56 AM
so many fail to comprehend is the immensity of the power available to us that we may live according to the law.

Poor Paul must be screaming in heaven when he hears such things.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Don't you hear the law? Which is, don't you understand what the law was that we are set free from?


Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

brakelite
Apr 23rd 2008, 02:11 AM
Poor Paul must be screaming in heaven when he hears such things.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
I didn't say that righteousness comes by the law. Righteousness comes by grace through the power of the Holy Spirit.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

We are promised that we may be partakers of the divine nature. If the divine nature doesn't comply with the divine law then Paul will be screaming at Peter, not me.




Don't you hear the law? Which is, don't you understand what the law was that we are set free from?


Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

You are confusing the laws. One God's, one Moses. When Israel came into the Sinai desert and God spoke to them from Sinai, God said I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.


Are you suggesting that God's desire and will was to bring Israel out of the house of bondage in Egypt and into the house of bondage in His law? Because
that is what you are implying.

Brakelite

Naphal
Apr 23rd 2008, 02:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphal http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1613890#post1613890)
Poor Paul must be screaming in heaven when he hears such things.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I didn't say that righteousness comes by the law. Righteousness comes by grace through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Yes but to say we should live according "to the law" goes contrary to what the NT says about it.



We are promised that we may be partakers of the divine nature. If the divine nature doesn't comply with the divine law then Paul will be screaming at Peter, not me.

"divine law" sure! That's the law of Christ and the new covenant law but if you promote living according to the old covenant law then you are preaching to live under the law which we are not to do.





Quote:

Originally Posted by Naphal http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1613890#post1613890)
Don't you hear the law? Which is, don't you understand what the law was that we are set free from?


Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

You are confusing the laws. One God's, one Moses.


I didn't write that portion of scripture so there is no way I am confusing anything, nor is Paul. Both are God's laws, but one is the old law and one is the new law. The old law "gendereth to bondage".






When Israel came into the Sinai desert and God spoke to them from Sinai, God said I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.


Are you suggesting that God's desire and will was to bring Israel out of the house of bondage in Egypt and into the house of bondage in His law? Because
that is what you are implying.



That's what occurred. The law of Sinai and the old covenant caused bondage which we have been set free from in Christ. Everything the NT says about the old covenant law speaks to this truth.



Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

timmyb
Apr 23rd 2008, 12:28 PM
To love the Lord with all your heart soul mind and strength is bondage to you Naphal? If that's so then you really need to check your heart if that's true.

we've been brought OUT of bondage... we are free...

walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

the lusts of the flesh is sin defined by the law... and walking in the spirit fulfills them all... instead of focusing on the law and thus becoming bound to the law... we fellowship with the holy spirit and the bondage of the law goes away... it's still there but the bondage is not

Naphal
Apr 23rd 2008, 07:17 PM
To love the Lord with all your heart soul mind and strength is bondage to you Naphal? If that's so then you really need to check your heart if that's true.

I think you need to address that to Paul, not me. I am only telling you what he has told us about it:


Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Galatians 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

The law given at Sinai was bondage.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.


Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

A Christian is dead to the law because the law was a curse! Christ is the end of the law for those that believe. Do you believe? Are you dead to the law Timmy?




we've been brought OUT of bondage... we are free...


free from the bondage of the law but some still cling to it and still preach it!




walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

the lusts of the flesh is sin defined by the law... and walking in the spirit fulfills them all... instead of focusing on the law and thus becoming bound to the law... we fellowship with the holy spirit and the bondage of the law goes away... it's still there but the bondage is not



Once again, there is a difference between the old law which is gone and the new law which is what defines sin. When you preach the Sinai law you preach a dead law, a law that was a curse and put man in bondange, that worked wrath and empowered sin! But if you leave that in it's place and preach the law of Christ then we would not disagree.

timmyb
Apr 23rd 2008, 08:47 PM
I think you need to address Jesus.. not me...

the first and greatest commandment is to Love the Lord with all your heart soul mind and strength for this is the law and the prophets Matthew 22:37

I preach OBEDIENCE... defined by the law of God... walk in the Spirit and you fulfill the law... I am dead to the law. I walk in the Spirit and fulfill the law. By fulfilling the law in my life by subjecting it to the Holy Spirit I am no longer under the law but I am fulfilling the law by walking in the Spirit. So by walking in the Spirit I render myself dead to the law.

once again I ask the question you always seem to dodge... If not for the law, then how do you define sin? You can't say that the New Covenant is new law. It's an expansion of the old. If the Pharisees would have caught Jesus teaching any new doctrine they would have killed him legitamatly. But Jesus did not teach anything but the original intention of the old MORAL LAW.