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Mark F
Apr 12th 2008, 09:19 PM
The intent of this thread is not to enter into debate and argue who is correct in their point of difference. I ask, please, if you do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture to not post miles of Scripture to prove your position. I realise that there are many here who don't (believe pre-trib) and I have determined to respect your point of veiw, and engage those who asked to be engaged. I would like to draw out those who believe as I, to discuss this position in light of what I post here. You should see that we have been put down so to speak, by our brothers and sisters in Christ for holding to our convictions, basically told that we simply are blind and sometimes inferred to be lost as well. I don't mind if in a gracious manner those who (who believe differently) to join in and discuss among us as I am sure there is things to be gained and understood together regardless.

Mark


As it seems that the issue of the day is to bring down the belief and hope of a pre-trib rapture, I have decided to not be defensive as most of us who hold that hope have been forced to do, but to be bold in proclaiming the hope of my salvation, “and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.”

My hope rests squarely on the promises of Scripture in Christ Jesus, and the fact through careful observation of the whole of Scripture, that God does indeed have different plans for different people. I recognize that the Church, or the betrothed Bride of Christ is indeed different from the unfaithful, but yet to be restored Wife of Jehovah, different from those who saw their need and that the law was weak to accomplish their salvation but believed and trusted God would save them based on His mercy and grace (OT Saints) and finally to those who trust in Him during the time of tribulation.

I recognize that the prophesy of the Seventy Weeks in Daniel 9 have been cut out of time by God for God to work with His chosen people Israel (and against those who mistreat them), and thier holy city Jerusalem, and that the Church was not included in the first sixty-nine weeks and I find no evidence that she will be in that last, seventieth week.

Our hope and promises are in Christ and heavenly in nature, we are promised crowns and the reward of Christ, Israel is promised safety in the land and a time of plenty to be ruled by the resurrected king David, their prince (Ezekiel 34:23-24; Ezekiel 37:24-25; Jeremiah 30:9; Hosea 3:4-5) and the Lord Himself.
How can we ignore the multitudes of verses which center around earthly blessings and yes, judgments also, that are glaringly and obviously told to the nation Israel? Yet none of that is reinforced in the New Testament to prepare us for that time? Ezekiel 30-32 lists nation after nation that will be thrown into the pit for their transgressions against Israel, and that the Lord will enter into judgment with them at that time.

Ezekiel 38 and 39 explain the last battle before the return of the Lord in the valley of Jehosephat, as does Joel 3. Ez 39:3 tells of the enemy being given to the birds, also Joel 3:12 tells us that there the Lord will sit and judge the nations. Matthew 24:28 says; "For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together", referring to His return in glory and power, which He explains in verses 29-30, Jesus' reference to the eagles gathering also in Luke 17:37 as Jesus describes the judgment of the nations in 17:34-37. Reference is also made to this in Revelation 19:17 and 21. I think it is important to note the similarity of these eagles or birds.

It is at this time that the Lord Jesus says that the angels will gather the elect from the 4 winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Matthew 24:31). This is clearly after the physical return of Jesus Christ. Yet in Revelation 19:7-8 the marriage of the Lamb has come and the Bride is granted to be arrayed in fine linen, then in Rev. 19:16 Christ is seen leaving heaven and following Him are those who are clothed in fine linen, white and pure. How can this be? The only way can be a pre-tribulation rapture of those who will be granted to be arrayed in fine linen, so who are they?

There must be saints on earth at the Lord Jesus’ return in glory and power, and there must be saints with Him when He comes. Here is why I believe this to be so important to understand.

There must be saints on earth when Christ returns, Matthew 24:30-31 is important to see why. Jesus appears and all will know it is the Lord “even they who pierced Him” (Rev. 1:7), then His angels will gather the elect, tribulation saints and OT saints. The gathering of the nations in judgment begins in Matthew 24:36 and is explained through the end of chapter 25. At the Lord Jesus’ return the nations are gathered in judgment, for what? How they have treated His Brethren (Matthew 25:31-46; Joel 3; Ezekiel 38 & 39). Our judgment is only for rewards, not sins as Paul explained in 1 Cor. 3:12-15, and 2 Cor. 5:10. This judgment of the nations results in some being sent to everlasting punishment, and might I add these are all living people to be kept separate from the great white throne judgment of the resurrected unrighteous.

If the believers on earth at the end of the great tribulation, and those that survive the battle in the valley of Jehosaphat (if there are any survivors) are raptured then to accompany the Lord Jesus on His presentation in power and glory….who is left to judge? Israel (His Brethren) is not in judgment here, it’s the goat (unbelieving gentiles) and sheep (believing gentiles) nations for how they treated His Brethren. A post tribulation, pre return of Christ in glory rapture, simply cannot be possible to allow any sheep to be present.

The Bride are those who will be with our Lord Jesus as He returns according to 1 Thessalonians 2:19 and 2 Thessalonians 3:13. So there must be believers on earth, living tribulation saints at this time.


The Harvest of Pentecost must teach us something as to the nature of salvation and the peoples involved and the resurrection.

We agree:
Passover; fulfilled in Christ.
Feast of unleavened bread; fulfilled in Christ.
Feast of firstfruits; fulfilled in Christ.
Feast of weeks; fulfilled in the giving of the Holy Spirit.

The harvest holds significant truths that show different peoples.
Lev 23:22
‘When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field when you reap, nor shall you gather any gleaning from your harvest. You shall leave them for the poor and for the stranger: I am the LORD your God.’”

The owners of the fields harvest the land, they were told to not fully harvest the corners (for the poor), nor gather any gleanings (for the strangers).
The owners of the land is Israel, the poor in the land were the Samaritans, the stangers in the land were the Gentiles. This also correlates to the great commission to preach the gospel to the Jews first, then to Sameria, then to the rest of the world. We recognize Peter in prominence because he is always mentioned first, we recognize grace in the opening of Paul’s letters and give grace prominence in doctrine as it is always mentioned first, why not with Israel, the Jews as they are always mentioned first? We’re the strangers who were to glean the fields, not the owners, but because of the marvelous grace we have been shown, we seem to have taken over the place of prominence that God has reserved for His Brethren, all three were included in the harvest.

Why the promises of escape?

There are mentionings in the NT that one may escape the wrath to come, why and how? As I have said in other places the gospels are different for good reasons, and they were written with different target audiences. Matthew, to the Jew, in the Olivet Discourse, gives the most detail from the destruction of Jerusalem, clear through the Tribulation to the Judgment of the nations. He mentioned to watch for the abomination of desolation also. Mark’s account which has less details also gives the warning to watch for the abomination of desolation and not to go after false christs.
Luke’s account is particularly different, there is no mention of the abomination of desolation to be watchful for, and from the destruction of Jerusalem (which they all describe) to warn the believers to flee in 70AD, Luke goes directly to after the Great Tribulation and to the return of Christ in glory. In Luke 21:34-36, we are told watch (because of what the Lord just told us), and pray that we may be counted worthy to escape these things and stand before Jesus Christ.

1 Thess 5:9-10;
"For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him."

and 1 Thess 1:10,
"and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

and to the Church in Philadelphia, Rev 3:10.

"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

The early teachings of the apostles in Acts were not slanted toward a pre-trib rapture, they knew nothing of one in the first place, it was Paul who taught this after he joined them from his learning in Arabia. Peter and the others in Acts were still thinking that Jesus would restore the kingdom to Israel at that time or very soon. It was all part of the mystery of the church that Paul declared was revealed to him alone.

And finally, there are patterns in Scripture that teach us that we will be saved from the wrath of God on the world, Noah believed God and was saved from the wrath which came. Lot and his family were safely removed from Sodom and Gomorrah prior to the wrath of God. Although where Jesus tells about the two accounts, His focus is on the state of the unbelieving ones as to the suddenness and destruction that came upon them in a time they thought things were going along as usual, but we can see that Noah and Lot were indeed taken out ahead of time, or as in Noah’s case a parallel can be drawn for Israel that they will be kept through this time of wrath.

One final note, there can be seen in the NT, three separate appearances of the Lord Jesus after His ascention to heaven. I believe that these do speak of the three aspects of His return which causes so much trouble for some to believe the pre-tribulational’s position.

The first occurance is at the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7:56, next, in Acts 9, the Lord appears to Saul (1 Cor. 15:8) where He was seen and heard and he beheld Him in glory brighter that the noon sun. The last and third time He was seen was by John while on the isle of Patmos.

These three appearings coincide with what we believe will be the three aspects to His second coming. First He will appear to His waiting Church, represented by Stephen, next He will appear to Israel who Saul represents, he was a devout Jew, a Hebrew of Hebrews, he was converted when he “Looked upon Him whom they pierced.” And the nation Israel will be saved. And finally He will appear as John saw Him as the One who comes to judge the world and set up His kingdom.

menJesus
Apr 12th 2008, 09:35 PM
No argument here! :::zipping my lips::: This is a wonderful post! Thanks!

quiet dove
Apr 12th 2008, 09:41 PM
These three appearings coincide with what we believe will be the three aspects to His second coming. First He will appear to His waiting Church, represented by Stephen, next He will appear to Israel who Saul represents, he was a devout Jew, a Hebrew of Hebrews, he was converted when he “Looked upon Him whom they pierced.” And the nation Israel will be saved. And finally He will appear as John saw Him as the One who comes to judge the world and set up His kingdom.

Thats a long post so not sure where to begin, so picked this.
Aren't the second and third pretty much at the same time? Wouldn't it be His Second Advent when they 'Look upon Him whom they pierced?

Mark F
Apr 12th 2008, 11:17 PM
No argument here! :::zipping my lips::: This is a wonderful post! Thanks!

I am note asking you to "zip you lips" just not to focus on disproving me, I know many who believe differently from me are well studied and intelligent, we obviously put priority on different things. I have read many many opposite posts and some of the things we have in common, some we do not. I have been strengthened by others veiws as well.

Mark F
Apr 12th 2008, 11:42 PM
Thats a long post so not sure where to begin, so picked this.
Aren't the second and third pretty much at the same time? Wouldn't it be His Second Advent when they 'Look upon Him whom they pierced?

I would say yes, but to two totally different outcomes and peoples.

I have read arguments that the Lord coming to rapture His Church, then coming years later in power and glory is essentially two comings. I believe it is say segments of one event, or seperate aspects of one.

Take 2 Peter 3:10;
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."

Is the Day of the Lord one day? 2 Peter 3:10 covers over a thousand years! We recognize the Day of the Lord when He pours out His wrath upon the ungodly, when He physically returns and sets up His kingdom on earth, when His appearing is as a theif in the night, then Peter tells us that the destruction of the heavens and earth, and the creation of the new heavens and earth are all the Day of the Lord!

John 5:28-29;
"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Or the Lord Jesus, He speaks of "the hour" of the resurrection, if we look to Revelation we see a thousand years between these two events, so why not accept seven years prior for the dead in Christ before the OT saints in Matthew 24:31?

My point being is that there are multiple events that fall into this "singular" discription.

quiet dove
Apr 13th 2008, 02:02 AM
I wasn't arguing it, I have just never thought about it. I'm pre trib so I found it interesting food for thought.

cwb
Apr 13th 2008, 04:00 AM
As it seems that the issue of the day is to bring down the belief and hope of a pre-trib rapture, I have decided to not be defensive as most of us who hold that hope have been forced to do, but to be bold in proclaiming the hope of my salvation, “and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.”



I agree. It is God's son I am waiting for, not the man of sin.



There must be saints on earth at the Lord Jesus’ return in glory and power, and there must be saints with Him when He comes. Here is why I believe this to be so important to understand.



I agree but I believe the saints on earth at the time of Christ's second coming to earth is speaking of the 144,000 who are sealed at the sixth seal. Those saints who are coming with him are the great multitude which are mentioned when the sixth seal is opened. I see the sixth seal as being opened before the great tribulation starts. I see this great multitude at the sixth seal as being the church who has been raptured. That is why they already have white robes (new glorified bodies). I know there are others who believe in a pre-trib rapture as I do who believe this great multitude is speaking about tribulation saints. Since they already have white robes, I believe this is talking about the church who has been raptured.


I have read arguments that the Lord coming to rapture His Church, then coming years later in power and glory is essentially two comings. I believe it is say segments of one event, or seperate aspects of one.


I agree. There are two parts to his coming - his coming for his church and his coming with his church.

Mark F
Apr 13th 2008, 04:36 AM
cwb,

These verses make me put it all at His feet:

Luke 18:8
8 "I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”


Matthew 7:14;
14 "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

menJesus
Apr 13th 2008, 09:55 AM
I am note asking you to "zip you lips" just not to focus on disproving me, I know many who believe differently from me are well studied and intelligent, we obviously put priority on different things. I have read many many opposite posts and some of the things we have in common, some we do not. I have been strengthened by others veiws as well.

I am neither well-studied, or intelligent, and like you, I have read many, many threads on this. And now, all I am is confused... ;)

I said I would zip my lips, to let you know that I will not participate, but definitely read and study, on this thread. I, too, am looking for the truth on this subject...

Thanks again for posting it.

Firstfruits
Apr 13th 2008, 10:43 AM
According to the following, we cannot inherit the Kingdom of God or eternal life until we have put on incorruption which as it is written does not happen until the last trumpet;

1 Cor 15:42 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1 Cor 15:50 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Cor 15:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Cor 15:53 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Cor 15:54 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Can we therefore expect to be changed and enter heaven and inherit eternal life before the last day?

According to this scripture when are the saints and prophets to be rewarded according to the promise of Jesus?

Rev 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Firstfruits

Mark F
Apr 13th 2008, 01:24 PM
Firstfruits,

I agree with what you are saying. Corruption cannot be a part of the kingdom of God.

I do struggle with trying to use Revelation (as a whole) to put order to the coming events. Many say that the resurrection is the seventh trumpet, I agree, but as I posted I cannot put every aspect of what we would call one event into a tiny chronological box, some descriptions of one event can cover many years in between.

Brother Mark
Apr 13th 2008, 02:22 PM
I take great solace in being spared the wrath of God. It is the wrath of man and Satan that takes it's toll on me. ;)

Kingsdaughter
Apr 13th 2008, 03:03 PM
I take great solace in being spared the wrath of God. It is the wrath of man and Satan that takes it's toll on me. ;)

Hehehe,I never thought of it that way, I agree and to that I say AMEN!

IBWatching
Apr 13th 2008, 03:22 PM
...These three appearings coincide with what we believe will be the three aspects to His second coming...

What do you mean "we", Kemosabe?

From one pre-tribber to another, lose the different "aspects" or "phases" of Jesus' Second Coming. Agree with your partial preterist, a-mil and post-trib brothers and sisters that there is only one second coming of Jesus to the earth.

Restudy the word "parousia" and you'll find that Stephanas, Titus and Paul, as well as the anti-christ (in all places 2 Thess 2!) all have "comings" in the NT. You will also see that Peter used the word to refer to Jesus' first "coming" to the earth. Once you figure out the true cross-the-board meaning of "parousia" you will also understand that Jesus' "coming" in the air to gather/change the Church is not the same "coming" as His Second Coming to the earth. And certainly not the same "coming" as the anti-christ has in 2 Thess 2:9.

To my partial preterist, a-mil and post-trib brothers and sisters I would offer the same challenge as I have given Mark. But in your case, I would ask that you lose the idea that the word "coming" in the NT always refers to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ to the earth. It doesn't. Same Greek word, same meaning. Different applications by context.

Mark F
Apr 13th 2008, 04:22 PM
IBWatching,

I see your point, my intent was not say that there was more than one second coming, my point is that as you say, the Lord's coming in the air is different from His coming physically to earth, but yet part of that larger event. I used the word "aspects" because I have read where some think that His coming in the air and then His physical return constitute two comings.

I said "we" because as it turns out I think you said the same thing, but in clearer terms, thanks for the input, Kemosabe.:D


(And I will look into "parousia" more deeply)

quiet dove
Apr 13th 2008, 06:22 PM
According to the following, we cannot inherit the Kingdom of God or eternal life until we have put on incorruption which as it is written does not happen until the last trumpet;
Firstfruits

It is true, flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, but is it not also true that, while our physical bodies cannot, our spirits already have?

What about this verse

Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth.

What meek is this? The Church is not to inherit the earth, who is?

LookingUp
Apr 13th 2008, 09:53 PM
…I recognize that the prophesy of the Seventy Weeks in Daniel 9 have been cut out of time by God for God to work with His chosen people Israel (and against those who mistreat them), and thier holy city Jerusalem, and that the Church was not included in the first sixty-nine weeks and I find no evidence that she will be in that last, seventieth week.I’m a little confused on this part. You say the church was not part of the first 69 weeks. Didn’t all those who walked with and believed in Jesus become part of the church on the day of Pentecost? Wasn’t that during the first 69 weeks?


Our hope and promises are in Christ and heavenly in nature, we are promised crowns and the reward of Christ, Israel is promised safety in the land and a time of plenty to be ruled by the resurrected king David, their prince (Ezekiel 34:23-24; Ezekiel 37:24-25; Jeremiah 30:9; Hosea 3:4-5) and the Lord Himself.

How can we ignore the multitudes of verses which center around earthly blessings and yes, judgments also, that are glaringly and obviously told to the nation Israel? Yet none of that is reinforced in the New Testament to prepare us for that time? Ezekiel 30-32 lists nation after nation that will be thrown into the pit for their transgressions against Israel, and that the Lord will enter into judgment with them at that time.Some interesting points here.

But what do you make of what Jesus told the disciples in Matt. 24 about the AC and his 2nd coming? These became a part of the church at Pentecost and were told to take heed of all of these things. (Or are you an Acts 9 guy?)


Ezekiel 38 and 39 explain the last battle before the return of the Lord in the valley of Jehosephat, as does Joel 3. Ez 39:3 tells of the enemy being given to the birds, also Joel 3:12 tells us that there the Lord will sit and judge the nations. Matthew 24:28 says; "For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together", referring to His return in glory and power, which He explains in verses 29-30, Jesus' reference to the eagles gathering also in Luke 17:37 as Jesus describes the judgment of the nations in 17:34-37. Reference is also made to this in Revelation 19:17 and 21. I think it is important to note the similarity of these eagles or birds.


It is at this time that the Lord Jesus says that the angels will gather the elect from the 4 winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Matthew 24:31). This is clearly after the physical return of Jesus Christ. Yet in Revelation 19:7-8 the marriage of the Lamb has come and the Bride is granted to be arrayed in fine linen, then in Rev. 19:16 Christ is seen leaving heaven and following Him are those who are clothed in fine linen, white and pure. How can this be? The only way can be a pre-tribulation rapture of those who will be granted to be arrayed in fine linen, so who are they?Another good point.

Is it possible they are simply those who have died?

Or could there have been a rapture in the sky just before His appearing (2nd coming)? However, that would leave only the select nation of Israel who sees His wounds at His coming to be the only ones going into the MK as saved individuals. All the rest would have been raptured.


There must be saints on earth at the Lord Jesus’ return in glory and power, and there must be saints with Him when He comes. Here is why I believe this to be so important to understand.


There must be saints on earth when Christ returns, Matthew 24:30-31 is important to see why. Jesus appears and all will know it is the Lord “even they who pierced Him” (Rev. 1:7), then His angels will gather the elect, tribulation saints and OT saints. The gathering of the nations in judgment begins in Matthew 24:36 and is explained through the end of chapter 25. At the Lord Jesus’ return the nations are gathered in judgment, for what? How they have treated His Brethren (Matthew 25:31-46; Joel 3; Ezekiel 38 & 39). Our judgment is only for rewards, not sins as Paul explained in 1 Cor. 3:12-15, and 2 Cor. 5:10. This judgment of the nations results in some being sent to everlasting punishment, and might I add these are all living people to be kept separate from the great white throne judgment of the resurrected unrighteous.

If the believers on earth at the end of the great tribulation, and those that survive the battle in the valley of Jehosaphat (if there are any survivors) are raptured then to accompany the Lord Jesus on His presentation in power and glory….who is left to judge? Israel (His Brethren) is not in judgment here, it’s the goat (unbelieving gentiles) and sheep (believing gentiles) nations for how they treated His Brethren. A post tribulation, pre return of Christ in glory rapture, simply cannot be possible to allow any sheep to be present.This is where I have trouble. Where does it say the sheep are actually “saved” or reborn before entering the MK? It says they were kind to His brethren. And then it is written that they will inherit the kingdom and the others are sent off to everlasting punishment. These things are given at the end of the MK regarding their final destination. In order to inherit the everlasting kingdom, they will eventually have to “put on immortal.” So, there is no doubt that they eventually become saved but taken as written, it doesn’t say they start off that way. Just a thought.

I have pondered that IF there is a post-trib. rapture, these sheep are those who did not come to salvation (& so did not become part of the church & raptured) but treated kindly the brethren of Jesus and so were given the opportunity to enter into the MK to serve Israel. There is a ton of OT prophecy indicating that Israel will rule over the Gents in the MK and that the Gent nations upon entering the MK will be asked to serve her or be destroyed. Those who agree to bless Israel with service are blessed by her throughout the MK.

The other possibility I’ve pondered is that IF there is a pre-trib rapture, the opportunity for Gentiles to be “equal” with Jews is gone during the trib. (the church being raptured and gone as well). I don’t see why they wouldn’t be able to come to salvation through belief in Jesus, but their faith would be expressed by their kindness to Israel and would continue to be expressed in like manner for the duration of the MK. The Jews who go into the MK are given all the blessings of the new covenant and become “lights” to the Gentile nations (I wonder if they are actually "lit" up in some way... scripture seems to suggest that - just another thought :)). There is no promise of Gentiles becoming lights to anyone during the MK. If Gents make it through the trib., they will be required to serve and bless Israel for the duration of the MK.


The harvest holds significant truths that show different peoples.

Lev 23:22
‘When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field when you reap, nor shall you gather any gleaning from your harvest. You shall leave them for the poor and for the stranger: I am the LORD your God.’”

The owners of the fields harvest the land, they were told to not fully harvest the corners (for the poor), nor gather any gleanings (for the strangers).
The owners of the land is Israel, the poor in the land were the Samaritans, the stangers in the land were the Gentiles. This also correlates to the great commission to preach the gospel to the Jews first, then to Sameria, then to the rest of the world. We recognize Peter in prominence because he is always mentioned first, we recognize grace in the opening of Paul’s letters and give grace prominence in doctrine as it is always mentioned first, why not with Israel, the Jews as they are always mentioned first? We’re the strangers who were to glean the fields, not the owners, but because of the marvelous grace we have been shown, we seem to have taken over the place of prominence that God has reserved for His Brethren, all three were included in the harvest.Not completely sure if I understand what you are saying here, but from what I understand from Rom. 11, Israel has been set aside for a season while God calls out a people for His name among the Gentiles. After this, she will be given prominence once again.


Why the promises of escape?


There are mentionings in the NT that one may escape the wrath to come, why and how? As I have said in other places the gospels are different for good reasons, and they were written with different target audiences. Matthew, to the Jew, in the Olivet Discourse, gives the most detail from the destruction of Jerusalem, clear through the Tribulation to the Judgment of the nations. He mentioned to watch for the abomination of desolation also. Mark’s account which has less details also gives the warning to watch for the abomination of desolation and not to go after false christs.
Luke’s account is particularly different, there is no mention of the abomination of desolation to be watchful for, and from the destruction of Jerusalem (which they all describe) to warn the believers to flee in 70AD, Luke goes directly to after the Great Tribulation and to the return of Christ in glory. In Luke 21:34-36, we are told watch (because of what the Lord just told us), and pray that we may be counted worthy to escape these things and stand before Jesus Christ.

1 Thess 5:9-10;
"For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him."

and 1 Thess 1:10,
"and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

and to the Church in Philadelphia, Rev 3:10.

"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

The early teachings of the apostles in Acts were not slanted toward a pre-trib rapture, they knew nothing of one in the first place, it was Paul who taught this after he joined them from his learning in Arabia. Peter and the others in Acts were still thinking that Jesus would restore the kingdom to Israel at that time or very soon. It was all part of the mystery of the church that Paul declared was revealed to him alone.

And finally, there are patterns in Scripture that teach us that we will be saved from the wrath of God on the world, Noah believed God and was saved from the wrath which came. Lot and his family were safely removed from Sodom and Gomorrah prior to the wrath of God. Although where Jesus tells about the two accounts, His focus is on the state of the unbelieving ones as to the suddenness and destruction that came upon them in a time they thought things were going along as usual, but we can see that Noah and Lot were indeed taken out ahead of time, or as in Noah’s case a parallel can be drawn for Israel that they will be kept through this time of wrath.Lots of good points here.


One final note, there can be seen in the NT, three separate appearances of the Lord Jesus after His ascention to heaven. I believe that these do speak of the three aspects of His return which causes so much trouble for some to believe the pre-tribulational’s position.


The first occurance is at the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7:56, next, in Acts 9, the Lord appears to Saul (1 Cor. 15:8) where He was seen and heard and he beheld Him in glory brighter that the noon sun. The last and third time He was seen was by John while on the isle of Patmos.

These three appearings coincide with what we believe will be the three aspects to His second coming. First He will appear to His waiting Church, represented by Stephen, next He will appear to Israel who Saul represents, he was a devout Jew, a Hebrew of Hebrews, he was converted when he “Looked upon Him whom they pierced.” And the nation Israel will be saved. And finally He will appear as John saw Him as the One who comes to judge the world and set up His kingdom.Very interesting! Haven’t heard this before.

Thank you for your great post and allowing me to post my thoughts.

LookingUp
Apr 13th 2008, 10:14 PM
It is true, flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, but is it not also true that, while our physical bodies cannot, our spirits already have?We will not inherit the kingdom of God until we put on immortality (1 Cor. 15). But we do have a pledge of our inheritance (Eph. 1:14).


What about this verse

Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth.

What meek is this? The Church is not to inherit the earth, who is?From what I understand, the church is joint heirs with Christ (Rom. 8:17) and will inherit all He does (which includes the earth). Crazy, huh? Wow... Praise God!

Mark F
Apr 13th 2008, 11:37 PM
LookingUp (me too),

Good questions I'll attempt to respond with better clarity. I suffer from poor writing skills, I think my thoughts are are clear but sometimes struggle to clearly put them to words.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark F
…I recognize that the prophesy of the Seventy Weeks in Daniel 9 have been cut out of time by God for God to work with His chosen people Israel (and against those who mistreat them), and thier holy city Jerusalem, and that the Church was not included in the first sixty-nine weeks and I find no evidence that she will be in that last, seventieth week.

I’m a little confused on this part. You say the church was not part of the first 69 weeks. Didn’t all those who walked with and believed in Jesus become part of the church on the day of Pentecost? Wasn’t that during the first 69 weeks?

I would say no, the 69th week ended with the cutting off of Messiah, then Pentecost was the "official" birth of the Church, from what I understand.



But what do you make of what Jesus told the disciples in Matt. 24 about the AC and his 2nd coming? These became a part of the church at Pentecost and were told to take heed of all of these things. (Or are you an Acts 9 guy?)

I don't know what an Acts 9 guy is so I can't explain from that point of veiw. But to the first part of your question I see many warnings in Scripture, it dosen't necessarily mean that they apply to us, things change when we believe, and as I've said Matthew was to the Jews, in Luke, written to the Greeks, completely skips that time.



Quote:

It is at this time that the Lord Jesus says that the angels will gather the elect from the 4 winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Matthew 24:31). This is clearly after the physical return of Jesus Christ. Yet in Revelation 19:7-8 the marriage of the Lamb has come and the Bride is granted to be arrayed in fine linen, then in Rev. 19:16 Christ is seen leaving heaven and following Him are those who are clothed in fine linen, white and pure. How can this be? The only way can be a pre-tribulation rapture of those who will be granted to be arrayed in fine linen, so who are they?


Another good point.

Is it possible they are simply those who have died?

Or could there have been a rapture in the sky just before His appearing (2nd coming)? However, that would leave only the select nation of Israel who sees His wounds at His coming to be the only ones going into the MK as saved individuals. All the rest would have been raptured.


My point is as you say, if the Church is on earth till the second coming or very shortly prior to, like raptured when He comes to earth, no believers will be here, we'll all be with Him, to me that dosen't fit.

The start of the seventieth week is when I believe the Church will be taken, there will be people who will read Matthew's gospel and there the words will make sense to them. Israel as you said will see "Him whom they pierced" and believe.


This is where I have trouble. Where does it say the sheep are actually “saved” or reborn before entering the MK? It says they were kind to His brethren. And then it is written that they will inherit the kingdom and the others are sent off to everlasting punishment. These things are given at the end of the MK regarding their final destination. In order to inherit the everlasting kingdom, they will eventually have to “put on immortal.” So, there is no doubt that they eventually become saved but taken as written, it doesn’t say they start off that way. Just a thought.

I was unclear there, I agree with how you put it, I do see a difference between the Millenial Kingdom, and the Everlasting Kingdom with a new heaven and a new earth. So as you say may very well be correct.


Quote:
Lev 23:22
‘When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field when you reap, nor shall you gather any gleaning from your harvest. You shall leave them for the poor and for the stranger: I am the LORD your God.’”


The owners of the fields harvest the land, they were told to not fully harvest the corners (for the poor), nor gather any gleanings (for the strangers).
The owners of the land is Israel, the poor in the land were the Samaritans, the stangers in the land were the Gentiles. This also correlates to the great commission to preach the gospel to the Jews first, then to Sameria, then to the rest of the world. We recognize Peter in prominence because he is always mentioned first, we recognize grace in the opening of Paul’s letters and give grace prominence in doctrine as it is always mentioned first, why not with Israel, the Jews as they are always mentioned first? We’re the strangers who were to glean the fields, not the owners, but because of the marvelous grace we have been shown, we seem to have taken over the place of prominence that God has reserved for His Brethren, all three were included in the harvest.

Not completely sure if I understand what you are saying here, but from what I understand from Rom. 11, Israel has been set aside for a season while God calls out a people for His name among the Gentiles. After this, she will be given prominence once again.

I agree with you here also that they have been set aside for a season, but IMO they get set aside by us, the Church which changes how we interpret the things to come. I find more is given in the prophets that we can comprehend and understand, than trying to understand the book of Revelation. It seems that some believe that Revelation is all we should use because it is for the Church, I disagree, learn the OT first and follow the flow of what was given to Israel and leave the Church out, I really don't think that bulk of Revelation includes the Church. I believe that the Church is an intercalation in the flow of the prophesies to Israel. (IMO)

Thanks for your comments.

Bumblebee Tuna
Apr 14th 2008, 03:14 AM
Pastor John Macarthur has a bunch of sermons on the end-times, he's a pre-trib, as am I. Some people here should listen to what he says.

Torl
Apr 14th 2008, 05:25 AM
I believe in pre trib. I also know that pre trib mid or post has no bearing on my salvation. As long as Jesus is mine or your savior.
that said here's a link very informative... see video 391
http://www.voe.org/manna_fest/video.aspx

Firstfruits
Apr 14th 2008, 08:24 AM
Firstfruits,

I agree with what you are saying. Corruption cannot be a part of the kingdom of God.

I do struggle with trying to use Revelation (as a whole) to put order to the coming events. Many say that the resurrection is the seventh trumpet, I agree, but as I posted I cannot put every aspect of what we would call one event into a tiny chronological box, some descriptions of one event can cover many years in between.

Even without using Revelation Jesus said the following;

Jn 6:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jn 6:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now if the last day is also at the last trumpet;

1 Cor 15:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Then can we expect to be able to inherit the Kingdom of God before either the last day or the last trumpet?

We know when Jesus said the dead shall be raised and Judged, if you then apply Revelation it should help.

Rev 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

When do the saints expect to get their reward/inheritance?

IBWatching
Apr 14th 2008, 03:08 PM
IBWatching...I said "we" because as it turns out I think you said the same thing, but in clearer terms, thanks for the input, Kemosabe.:D


(And I will look into "parousia" more deeply)

Yes. That was my whole point...and you got it! :)

If you do take more time to study "parousia", concentrate on the meaning as it applies to the "coming" of the antichrist (2 Thess 2:9). Once you fully understand that one, the rest is easy.

John146
Apr 14th 2008, 05:51 PM
I don't mind if in a gracious manner those who (who believe differently) to join in and discuss among us as I am sure there is things to be gained and understood together regardless.

Since you did say those who believe differently are welcome to post, I wanted to point out one particular area where I believe you are mistaken.



There must be saints on earth when Christ returns, Matthew 24:30-31 is important to see why. Jesus appears and all will know it is the Lord “even they who pierced Him” (Rev. 1:7), then His angels will gather the elect, tribulation saints and OT saints. The gathering of the nations in judgment begins in Matthew 24:36 and is explained through the end of chapter 25. At the Lord Jesus’ return the nations are gathered in judgment, for what? How they have treated His Brethren (Matthew 25:31-46; Joel 3; Ezekiel 38 & 39). Our judgment is only for rewards, not sins as Paul explained in 1 Cor. 3:12-15, and 2 Cor. 5:10. This judgment of the nations results in some being sent to everlasting punishment, and might I add these are all living people to be kept separate from the great white throne judgment of the resurrected unrighteous.

If the believers on earth at the end of the great tribulation, and those that survive the battle in the valley of Jehosaphat (if there are any survivors) are raptured then to accompany the Lord Jesus on His presentation in power and glory….who is left to judge? Israel (His Brethren) is not in judgment here, it’s the goat (unbelieving gentiles) and sheep (believing gentiles) nations for how they treated His Brethren. A post tribulation, pre return of Christ in glory rapture, simply cannot be possible to allow any sheep to be present.

The Bride are those who will be with our Lord Jesus as He returns according to 1 Thessalonians 2:19 and 2 Thessalonians 3:13. So there must be believers on earth, living tribulation saints at this time.

In particular, I wanted to talk about the identity of Jesus' brethren. You say that is a reference to Israel. But who does Jesus Himself say are His brethren?

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. - Matthew 12:50

For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. - Mark 3:35

And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it. - Luke 8:21

Personally, I believe Matthew 25:31-46 is clearly the day of judgment and the sheep are believers, both Jew and Gentile, while the goats are unbelievers, both Jew and Gentile. People are not given eternal sentences based on how they treat Israel. There is no scriptural support for that idea. People are given eternal sentences based on how they treat Jesus. Jesus indicated that how one treats Him is reflected in how one treats the least of His brethren, which are those who do the will of God. He indicates that when we help the sick, we help Him. When we feed the hungry, we are feeding Him. When we visit those in prison we are visiting Him. So, I don't believe it's accurate to say the sheep refer to believing Gentiles, the goats to unbelieving Gentiles and the brethren to Israel.

Banzy
Apr 14th 2008, 06:41 PM
To state my position upfront: I've gone from being a pretribber to a postribber to a no tribber over the years.

Since this is a pretribber thread, I'll ask some questions.

Where was Noah when the flood was taking place? What happened to Daniel in the Lions den? What happened to Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego(sp?) in the fiery furnace? Where were the Israelites during the plagues that came upon Egypt?

Lastly, I believe in a rapture per se. I believe its when we receive the adoption, our new immortal bodies. I'm just assuming here, but for pretribbers isn't 1 Cor. 15 the rapture? In the twinkling of a eye...etc. Question, if we are immortal when we get raptured, what could possibly harm us?

Firstfruits
Apr 15th 2008, 11:17 AM
To state my position upfront: I've gone from being a pretribber to a postribber to a no tribber over the years.

Since this is a pretribber thread, I'll ask some questions.

Where was Noah when the flood was taking place? What happened to Daniel in the Lions den? What happened to Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego(sp?) in the fiery furnace? Where were the Israelites during the plagues that came upon Egypt?

Lastly, I believe in a rapture per se. I believe its when we receive the adoption, our new immortal bodies. I'm just assuming here, but for pretribbers isn't 1 Cor. 15 the rapture? In the twinkling of a eye...etc. Question, if we are immortal when we get raptured, what could possibly harm us?

The redemption of our bodies!!!!!

Lk 21:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Rom 8:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Acts 24:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

1 Cor 6:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

Jn 6:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 12:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Firstfruits

My heart's Desire
Apr 17th 2008, 02:42 AM
I agree. It is God's son I am waiting for, not the man of sin.
.
And the Church will be gone before the man of sin is revealed! I like how you said that. I'm not looking for the man of sin either.

John146
Apr 17th 2008, 07:29 PM
And the Church will be gone before the man of sin is revealed! I like how you said that. I'm not looking for the man of sin either.

But 2 Thess 2 makes it clear that the coming of Christ and our gathering unto Him does not happen until the falling away and the man of sin is revealed first.

Mark F
Apr 18th 2008, 12:14 AM
John146,

My thoughts on the sheep and goats also comes from Joel 3. And by the way by all means we too are His brethren, but in the context of a pre-trib rapture, that would mean gentiles (maybe those that believed the witnesses), and Israel would fit in that way.

Joel 3:1-3"
1 “For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land.
3 They have cast lots for My people,
Have given a boy as payment for a harlot,
And sold a girl for wine, that they may drink."

It continues with this threme.

Micah 5:1-5
“ But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From everlasting.”
3 Therefore He shall give them up,
Until the time that she who is in labor has given birth;
Then the remnant of His brethren
Shall return to the children of Israel.
4 And He shall stand and feed His flock
In the strength of the LORD,
In the majesty of the name of the LORD His God;
And they shall abide,
For now He shall be great
To the ends of the earth;
5 And this One shall be peace."




In response to 2 Thess 2, I think to see why Paul wrote this can help clear some of this up. This Scripture is used alot to "disprove a pre-trib rapture", on the contrary, I believe it supports it.

2 Thess 2:1-8
"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming."

The subject here is The Day of the Lord, so the Thessalonians must have believed that they would not be here for the Day of the Lord. Paul tells them that the Day of the Lord could not have come because the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin has not yet ocurred. He reminded them in verse 8 that he had already told them these things, but yet they listened to some imposter who told them their tribulations were on the account that they were IN the Day of the Lord.

This does not prove that the falling away and the abomination of desolation has to happen before a rapture can happen, just that the Day of wrath cannot come until the falling away and AOD.


The thing to notice here is that this shook them up to think they were still there, they must have been told that they would not be here, seems to be a point worth pondering wouldn't you agree?

My heart's Desire
Apr 18th 2008, 02:51 AM
But 2 Thess 2 makes it clear that the coming of Christ and our gathering unto Him does not happen until the falling away and the man of sin is revealed first.
There can be a falling away before the man of sin is revealed as well as a Church that has left before or between the two. I think the falling way has already begun, but the man of sin has not yet been revealed. But that's just my opinion.

John146
Apr 20th 2008, 05:01 AM
In response to 2 Thess 2, I think to see why Paul wrote this can help clear some of this up. This Scripture is used alot to "disprove a pre-trib rapture", on the contrary, I believe it supports it.

2 Thess 2:1-8
"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming."

The subject here is The Day of the Lord, so the Thessalonians must have believed that they would not be here for the Day of the Lord. Paul tells them that the Day of the Lord could not have come because the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin has not yet ocurred. He reminded them in verse 8 that he had already told them these things, but yet they listened to some imposter who told them their tribulations were on the account that they were IN the Day of the Lord.

This does not prove that the falling away and the abomination of desolation has to happen before a rapture can happen, just that the Day of wrath cannot come until the falling away and AOD.


The thing to notice here is that this shook them up to think they were still there, they must have been told that they would not be here, seems to be a point worth pondering wouldn't you agree?

So, I guess you don't equate our gathering unto Him, as worded in 2 Thess 2:1 with our being caught up to meet Him in the air, as worded in 1 Thess 4:16. If you see the catching up and the gathering as the same thing, as I do, then you'd have to conclude that it does not occur until there is first a falling away and the man of sin is revealed. The text is clear about that.

Firstfruits
Apr 20th 2008, 11:23 AM
It is true, flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, but is it not also true that, while our physical bodies cannot, our spirits already have?

What about this verse

Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth.

What meek is this? The Church is not to inherit the earth, who is?

From what is written when Jesus died his soul/spirit did not go to heaven but went to hell/the grave until he was resurrected and then he ascended to the Father in heaven. Even though he told the thief "Today" he would be with him in paradise but since he went to hell/ the grave for three days would that mean that the thiefs destination was gauranteed from that moment?

LookingUp
Apr 20th 2008, 05:07 PM
From what is written when Jesus died his soul/spirit did not go to heaven but went to hell/the grave until he was resurrected and then he ascended to the Father in heaven. Even though he told the thief "Today" he would be with him in paradise but since he went to hell/ the grave for three days would that mean that the thiefs destination was gauranteed from that moment?Where does it say Jesus went to hell for three days?

Firstfruits
Apr 21st 2008, 08:48 AM
Where does it say Jesus went to hell for three days?

With the understanding that Jesus was not resurrected until the third day, and when he was seen after his resurrection he stated that he had not yet ascended to the Father.

Acts 2:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


Jn 20:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

When did he ascend/return to Heaven?

Acts 1:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Acts 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Acts 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Kingsdaughter
Apr 21st 2008, 04:22 PM
I have heard some say that it is going to be even harder for unbelievers to get saved AFTER the rapture. WHy is that?

I would think that millions of people vanishing all over the world and at the same time would cause unbelievers to seek the Lord.

I know that my children( 4,2, and 1) will be raptured with me, but when I come to this forum( end times chat) and read what others believe, my hope turns into fear and discouragement and I begin to doubt.

the rookie
Apr 21st 2008, 04:43 PM
I have heard some say that it is going to be even harder for unbelievers to get saved AFTER the rapture. WHy is that?

I would think that millions of people vanishing all over the world and at the same time would cause unbelievers to seek the Lord.

I know that my children( 4,2, and 1) will be raptured with me, but when I come to this forum( end times chat) and read what others believe, my hope turns into fear and discouragement and I begin to doubt.

There would be a few reasons for that:

1. The apostle Paul himself established this principle in Romans 10:14 - "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?"

It is, in my opinion, faulty thinking to imagine that one would see signs and wonders and automatically convert - the Pharisees in Jerusalem agreed to kill Jesus immediately after they received word of Lazarus being raised from the dead. The book of Revelation bears this out - many who are terrified of God in the 6th seal are defiant in sin by the time the 6th trumpet is sounded; by the time the 6th bowl takes place, they are gathering to make war against Jesus.

If believers struggle with the leadership of Jesus now in their own lives, how much more would unbelievers struggle then when the leadership of Jesus is its most pronounced?

2. Of course, the other reason is found in the pre-trib belief that the Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth as well at that time in the way that 2 Thess. 2 is interpreted.

So one is left with a few missiological problems:

No preachers to explain what God is doing and why;

No disciplers to train and equip any potential new converts with the truth needed to stand against the greatest tidal wave of pressure and trouble the earth has ever seen;

No Holy Spirit to bear witness internally to the truth of a gospel that, theoretically, no one saved is left to preach.

That's really the main reason why the pre-trib rapture doctrine is hard for me to swallow, IMO. God doesn't lead this way. He always informs His people prophetically what He is doing and why in His tenderness and mercy (Amos 3:3). Why? Because He wants His people to be "volunteers" in the day of His power (Ps. 110:3), signing up in full voluntary agreement with His leadership and all of the intensity of His judgments.

Think about it - if we don't understand, and at times don't really like (if we're honest) His leadership at times now, why do we think we automatically will then, when the things He will do are off the charts intense?

DeafPosttrib
Apr 21st 2008, 05:06 PM
The Bible doesn't teaching us, there will be another chance to be saved after rapture(coming of Christ).

Matthew 25:1-12 clearly teaching us, when the door once shut, the five fool virgins without oil run to the door, and knocking beg Lord to open for them to enter. But, Lord saying to them, sorry he doesn't know them. 'Door shut' is the picture of end of the age is done, as the opporunity salvation of repentance is done. There is no other second chance to be saved when once Christ comes. It will be too late for them.

Same with Noah's day. When the door of Ark shuts, the rain poured down and destroyed all people perished. There was no another chance for person to repent. It was done for them. All were perished without repent.

Noah's Day is same as Christ's coming.

There will not be another second chance to be aved when once after Christ comes. Because, when Christ comes, He shall send his angels to gathering all nations, and will be already fixed them into two classes - "sheep and goat" or "wheat and tares", all unsaved will be cast away into fire at once. There will be NO remain lost person on earth after Christ's coming.

ONLY faithful Christians will enter into on earth with Christ at His coming and Judgment Day as what the Bible teaching.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Alyssa S
Apr 21st 2008, 05:36 PM
With the understanding that Jesus was not resurrected until the third day, and when he was seen after his resurrection he stated that he had not yet ascended to the Father.

Acts 2:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


Jn 20:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

When did he ascend/return to Heaven?

Acts 1:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Acts 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Acts 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Amen!
And.....
Matt 12:40 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the (heart of the earth)."

...And so, the thief on the cross was not in Paradise that day... nor could he be because Jesus himself wasn't there. Scripture is clear.

And the word "HELL" in Acts 2:31 is "HAIDES" in the Greek... and it means "GRAVE." Also, Acts 27 is a quote from Psalm 16:10 "You will not abandon me to the GRAVE." (SHEOL in Hebrew). The English has taken both the Hebrew word "SHEOL," and the Greek word, "HAIDES" and called it "HELL." It simply means the GRAVE... the Heart of the Earth...

Many confuse this because of the poor "insertion" and their misunderstanding of "hell" and they are left imagining Jesus in the "lake of fire."

If we can accept the words quoted from Psalm 16 which prophetically teach that Jesus went to 'sheol' (ie. the grave) when He died, then to be consistent with Bible teaching, we must accept that Peter meant the grave as well when He said that Jesus went to hades when he quotes Psalm 16 in Acts 2:27. Any other explanation would have Old Testament teaching contradicting the New Testament.

'Hell' is a word that was added (interpolated) to our Bibles and is not a translation of the original language. When we see this word in scripture its true meaning is 'the grave' or 'the pit' in the Old Testament. In the New Testament this word is used with reference to the burning 'rubbish tip' that was outside of Jerusalem, known as 'the valley of the son of Hinnom' or 'gehenna'.

'sheol' in the Hebrew is interpolated 'hell' or translated 'grave' or 'pit' in the Old Testament. Psalm 6:5, 9:17, 30:3; Numbers 16:30,33
'hades' in the Greek is translated 'grave' or interpolated 'hell' in the New Testament. 1Corinthians 15:55, Matthew11:21, 16:18
'gehenna' in the Greek is interpolated 'hell' in the New Testament. Matthew 5:22, 23:15; Luke 12:5 'Hell' is not a translation

'Hell' is not a translation. It is a word that has been inserted by translators into the Bible because of their preconceived ideas about a place of eternal torment. This idea is fast losing ground today as modern translators realise that Hebrew words like 'sheol', simply meant the grave to the original inspired writers of the Scriptures. The translators are still very shy though, and in many instances have left the word 'sheol' untranslated in modern Bible versions. This is because they can see that this word obviously means 'the grave' and not the traditional meaning. Rather than admit this though, and the folly of using the inserted word 'hell' in the past, they have just left the Hebrew word 'sheol' untranslated many times, and left the readers to make up their own minds.


"For You will not leave my SOUL IN SHEOL (Hell in the KJV), nor will You allow Your Holy One to see CORRUPTION." Psalm 16:10


"If I ascend up into heaven, You are there; if I make my BED IN HELL behold, You are there." Psalm 139:8

John146
Apr 21st 2008, 05:39 PM
The Bible doesn't teaching us, there will be another chance to be saved after rapture(coming of Christ).

Matthew 25:1-12 clearly teaching us, when the door once shut, the five fool virgins without oil run to the door, and knocking beg Lord to open for them to enter. But, Lord saying to them, sorry he doesn't know them. 'Door shut' is the picture of end of the age is done, as the opporunity salvation of repentance is done. There is no other second chance to be saved when once Christ comes. It will be too late for them.

Same with Noah's day. When the door of Ark shuts, the rain poured down and destroyed all people perished. There was no another chance for person to repent. It was done for them. All were perished without repent.

Noah's Day is same as Christ's coming.

There will not be another second chance to be aved when once after Christ comes. Because, when Christ comes, He shall send his angels to gathering all nations, and will be already fixed them into two classes - "sheep and goat" or "wheat and tares", all unsaved will be cast away into fire at once. There will be NO remain lost person on earth after Christ's coming.

ONLY faithful Christians will enter into on earth with Christ at His coming and Judgment Day as what the Bible teaching.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

I agree. Good post.

Alyssa S
Apr 21st 2008, 06:04 PM
The Bible doesn't teaching us, there will be another chance to be saved after rapture(coming of Christ).

Matthew 25:1-12 clearly teaching us, when the door once shut, the five fool virgins without oil run to the door, and knocking beg Lord to open for them to enter. But, Lord saying to them, sorry he doesn't know them. 'Door shut' is the picture of end of the age is done, as the opporunity salvation of repentance is done. There is no other second chance to be saved when once Christ comes. It will be too late for them.

Same with Noah's day. When the door of Ark shuts, the rain poured down and destroyed all people perished. There was no another chance for person to repent. It was done for them. All were perished without repent.

Noah's Day is same as Christ's coming.

There will not be another second chance to be aved when once after Christ comes. Because, when Christ comes, He shall send his angels to gathering all nations, and will be already fixed them into two classes - "sheep and goat" or "wheat and tares", all unsaved will be cast away into fire at once. There will be NO remain lost person on earth after Christ's coming.

ONLY faithful Christians will enter into on earth with Christ at His coming and Judgment Day as what the Bible teaching.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Exactly!

And if Jesus was going to rapture the saints PRIOR to the Tribulation, why would he, once again, give a clear warning to "THEREFORE, KEEP WATCH!!" If we are going to be spared from this horrific time, why do we need to be warned about staying alert and to keep watching? When Jesus comes, it is going to be during a very horrific time on earth. He is simply warning us to not be deceived.

John146
Apr 21st 2008, 06:18 PM
Exactly!

And if Jesus was going to rapture the saints PRIOR to the Tribulation, why would he, once again, give a clear warning to "THEREFORE, KEEP WATCH!!" If we are going to be spared from this horrific time, why do we need to be warned about staying alert and to keep watching? When Jesus comes, it is going to be during a very horrific time on earth. He is simply warning us to not be deceived.

Yes, I completely agree, but unfortunately pre-trib teaches that those who are saved during the tribulation period are not the church. They are merely "trib saints". In other words, they don't disagree that Jesus is giving a warning there, but they believe He's not giving it to the church, but rather the trib saints. :confused

the rookie
Apr 21st 2008, 06:28 PM
I have heard some say that it is going to be even harder for unbelievers to get saved AFTER the rapture. WHy is that?

I would think that millions of people vanishing all over the world and at the same time would cause unbelievers to seek the Lord.

I know that my children( 4,2, and 1) will be raptured with me, but when I come to this forum( end times chat) and read what others believe, my hope turns into fear and discouragement and I begin to doubt.

Now to be fair, the last four responders to your question (myself included) are post-tribbers; so I am hoping a pre-tribber jumps in here and gives their side of the story.

Alyssa S
Apr 21st 2008, 06:28 PM
Yes, I completely agree, but unfortunately pre-trib teaches that those who are saved during the tribulation period are not the church. They are merely "trib saints". In other words, they don't disagree that Jesus is giving a warning there, but they believe He's not giving it to the church, but rather the trib saints. :confused

Hmmmm... yah, they do think that don't they?
Well, there is way too much Scripture that points to a Post Trib Rapture. One of the things that I think is so mind boggling about the Pre-Trib belief is that they claim the Holy Spirit will no longer be present on the earth... well then how in the wide world of sports can one be SAVED without the Holy Spirit?? :confused :o :eek:

Alyssa S
Apr 21st 2008, 06:30 PM
Now to be fair, the last four responders to your question (myself included) are post-tribbers; so I am hoping a pre-tribber jumps in here and gives their side of the story.

Aww...You're so thoughtful... :)
By the way, Every time I see your Avatar, I keep thinking... "Hey! There's Dennis!! What's HE doing here??" haha!

John146
Apr 21st 2008, 06:35 PM
Hmmmm... yah, they do think that don't they?
Well, there is way too much Scripture that points to a Post Trib Rapture. One of the things that I think is so mind boggling about the Pre-Trib belief is that they claim the Holy Spirit will no longer be present on the earth... well then how in the wide world of sports can one be SAVED without the Holy Spirit?? :confused :o :eek:

I know what you mean. Mind boggling, indeed.

Kingsdaughter
Apr 21st 2008, 10:58 PM
Now to be fair, the last four responders to your question (myself included) are post-tribbers; so I am hoping a pre-tribber jumps in here and gives their side of the story.

that was kind, thank you.

I figured since the title of this thread is 'for pretrib believers' and the title of my own post was 'i have a question for pretrib believers' that only pretrib believers would actually respond. silly me, what was I thinking.

cwb
Apr 22nd 2008, 01:47 AM
I have heard some say that it is going to be even harder for unbelievers to get saved AFTER the rapture. WHy is that?


I do not believe there will be a whole of people getting saved during the tribulation. I do however believe at this time God will save a remnant of Israel (the 144,000). I am not sure how many gentiles will be saved at that time. They had their opportunity before the rapture. During the tribulation, God is sending them strong delusion(except for the remnant of Israel) that they should believe a lie

II Thes. 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


I would think that millions of people vanishing all over the world and at the same time would cause unbelievers to seek the Lord.


There are alot of people who will find a way to not believe no matter how much evidence they have. There were those who did not believe even thoough they saw Jesus perform miracles right before their very eyes. There were those who latter did not believe even though they saw Moses part the red sea. Who knows? Maybe they will be telling people it was UFOs that came and took the believers rather than Jesus Christ. By the way I do not believe those who are raptured will simply vanish. I believe they will be changed from having mortal bodies to having immortal bodies before they are caught up.



I know that my children( 4,2, and 1) will be raptured with me, but when I come to this forum( end times chat) and read what others believe, my hope turns into fear and discouragement and I begin to doubt.


I hope not. Our hope is one of the most precious things we have. The bible say it is the anchor of our souls.

Heb. 6:19


Which [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;


Don't let anybody talk you out of your hope. The end result of any study you do on the end-time should be that you have more hope and less fear doubt or discouragement. Even if I am wrong about my belief that the rapture is pre-trib, that only means that it will be a little longer before the rapture happens. Should we still be here when the anti-christ is revealed, that means it will only be 42 months before we are caught up to meet the lord in the air. Anyways, the main thing in your studies of the end times is that it should make you stronger in your hope and therefore have less fear and discouragement.

By the way, I would like to mention that if you want to know anything about the pre-trib point of view, you are certainly better off getting your information from somebody who is pre-trib. Many times those who are not pre-trib will distort the pre-trib point of view. Like in this thread, one poster says pre-tribbers believe the Holy Spirit will not be present on earth during the tribulation. Well, I am a pre-tribber and have never believed that. Neither can I recall discussing the end times with any other pre-tribber who told me they believed the Holy Spirit would no longer be present on earth. Yet one poster says pre-tribbers believe that, then other posters need to follow along and mock anybody who believes the rapture is pre-trib. To me, that gets tiresome. Should the pre-trib point of veiw turn out to be the truth, then those who have mocked it did not mock those who believe in the pre-trib point of view, but they mocked God's truth.

Mark F
Apr 22nd 2008, 01:55 AM
Not all pre-tribbers think that the Holy Spirit will be removed, the wording in 2 Thess 2 of the restrainer is that He taken out of the way, not removed. We all agree that it is the power of God that is keeping Satan from bringing his antichrist until the appointed time, I believe that for us to think it is us that's holding him back is not biblically supported. So the right way to see it is that the restrainer will step aside so to speak, the text dosen't say removed.

I think that too many broad strokes are painted of "us", one that we believe no one will be saved in the event of a pre-trib rapture, I think not, but I do believe that those who come to the Lord will be martyred for their faith.

2 Thes 2:9-11
"The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

The above Scripture is concerning those who heard the truth and did not believe, or believed a gospel that did not make them see their true condition before God, they said the little sinner's prayer or they signed a card and lived carnally having the look of Christianity, but never coming to the knowledge of the truth. These are the ones that will get no second chance, that's the reason that we are to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. There is a lot of easy believism being taught today and abuses of our liberty in Christ,

I also believe that those who believed as Abraham believed before Calvary are not the Church either, as was said of the "trib Saints".


I see I covered some of the same as cwb, I noticed after I posted mine, sorry for the repeat but I'll let it stand.

the rookie
Apr 22nd 2008, 03:01 AM
Aww...You're so thoughtful... :)
By the way, Every time I see your Avatar, I keep thinking... "Hey! There's Dennis!! What's HE doing here??" haha!

:lol::lol:

I get around. Disney movies, end time forums....

the rookie
Apr 22nd 2008, 03:04 AM
that was kind, thank you.

I figured since the title of this thread is 'for pretrib believers' and the title of my own post was 'i have a question for pretrib believers' that only pretrib believers would actually respond. silly me, what was I thinking.

Now, to be fair the other way, as a mod here I have to warn you that we don't do "Amil Only" or "Premil Only" type discussions. Anyone can comment - but as a mod, though, I don't like it when folks with a question get piled on. I didn't do the "math" after my response - three more like it afterwards was a bit too intense for me. So I wanted to put the proverbial "brakes" on, as it were.

Alyssa S
Apr 22nd 2008, 03:59 AM
Don't let anybody talk you out of your hope. The end result of any study you do on the end-time should be that you have more hope and less fear doubt or discouragement. Even if I am wrong about my belief that the rapture is pre-trib, that only means that it will be a little longer before the rapture happens. Should we still be here when the anti-christ is revealed, that means it will only be 42 months before we are caught up to meet the lord in the air. Anyways, the main thing in your studies of the end times is that it should make you stronger in your hope and therefore have less fear and discouragement.


Amen.... well said. :)


Many times those who are not pre-trib will distort the pre-trib point of view. Like in this thread, one poster says pre-tribbers believe the Holy Spirit will not be present on earth during the tribulation.

Obviously, you are speaking of me. Let me be as transparent as I can be... it is not my intention to distort ANY view of Scripture. These are my convictions and my beliefs. Could I be wrong? Sure. But it is MY conviction. I simply no longer believe in a pre-trib as I have all of my Christian life.

Well, I am a pre-tribber and have never believed that. Neither can I recall discussing the end times with any other pre-tribber who told me they believed the Holy Spirit would no longer be present on earth. Yet one poster says pre-tribbers believe that, then other posters need to follow along and mock anybody who believes the rapture is pre-trib.

Well, that is what is taught to the people coming out of a very popular Theological Seminary in my town because these guys go on to be pastors and this is what they are teaching from the pulpit. Maybe not all of them. But that is the doctrine I always heard. I didn't go to TS, but the pastors that come out of there (that I have heard) teach about how there will be no Holy Spirit on earth after the Rapture.

And who is telling people to mock other people? I would never encourage someone to mock anyone else... but I would tell someone to be careful what they listen to and read and to Not be Deceived regarding ANY subject about Scripture... because we are clearly warned about it in the New Testament.



Should the pre-trib point of veiw turn out to be the truth, then those who have mocked it did not mock those who believe in the pre-trib point of view, but they mocked God's truth.
[/quote]

Well, that can go both ways can't it? I think it is good to hear what everyone is learning, because understanding comes with time and we, I, us could possibly realize at some point that we were wrong... or maybe even right. I do not desire to mock, and if I came off that way, I certainly do apologize.

God bless...

the rookie
Apr 22nd 2008, 05:01 AM
By the way, I would like to mention that if you want to know anything about the pre-trib point of view, you are certainly better off getting your information from somebody who is pre-trib. Many times those who are not pre-trib will distort the pre-trib point of view.

Point taken - I apologize for any unintentional distortions on my part.

Kingsdaughter
Apr 22nd 2008, 05:13 AM
I do not believe there will be a whole of people getting saved during the tribulation. I do however believe at this time God will save a remnant of Israel (the 144,000). I am not sure how many gentiles will be saved at that time. They had their opportunity before the rapture. During the tribulation, God is sending them strong delusion(except for the remnant of Israel) that they should believe a lie

II Thes. 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:



There are alot of people who will find a way to not believe no matter how much evidence they have. There were those who did not believe even thoough they saw Jesus perform miracles right before their very eyes. There were those who latter did not believe even though they saw Moses part the red sea. Who knows? Maybe they will be telling people it was UFOs that came and took the believers rather than Jesus Christ. By the way I do not believe those who are raptured will simply vanish. I believe they will be changed from having mortal bodies to having immortal bodies before they are caught up.



I hope not. Our hope is one of the most precious things we have. The bible say it is the anchor of our souls.

Heb. 6:19


Don't let anybody talk you out of your hope. The end result of any study you do on the end-time should be that you have more hope and less fear doubt or discouragement. Even if I am wrong about my belief that the rapture is pre-trib, that only means that it will be a little longer before the rapture happens. Should we still be here when the anti-christ is revealed, that means it will only be 42 months before we are caught up to meet the lord in the air. Anyways, the main thing in your studies of the end times is that it should make you stronger in your hope and therefore have less fear and discouragement.

By the way, I would like to mention that if you want to know anything about the pre-trib point of view, you are certainly better off getting your information from somebody who is pre-trib. Many times those who are not pre-trib will distort the pre-trib point of view. Like in this thread, one poster says pre-tribbers believe the Holy Spirit will not be present on earth during the tribulation. Well, I am a pre-tribber and have never believed that. Neither can I recall discussing the end times with any other pre-tribber who told me they believed the Holy Spirit would no longer be present on earth. Yet one poster says pre-tribbers believe that, then other posters need to follow along and mock anybody who believes the rapture is pre-trib. To me, that gets tiresome. Should the pre-trib point of veiw turn out to be the truth, then those who have mocked it did not mock those who believe in the pre-trib point of view, but they mocked God's truth.

Thanks for responding cwb. I believe in a pre-trib rapture based on what I know about end times, and I don't know much which is why I came to this thread hoping to gain some knowledge and insight from brothers and sisters who are of likemind, who know more.

The Lord told me today that my hope and trust should be in HIM! It's only when I take my focus off the Lord that I begin to have fear and discouragement. Your right, our hope is very precious.

Wow, UFO's, I didn't think of that. I guess they could believe that we were taken by UFO's. THank you for posting scripture verse, if God sends a strong delusion, most definitey they will be deceived. I also believe that we will be changed to have immortal bodies. In the twinkling of an eye...right? But doesn't that mean we will vanish? A twinkling of an eye is pretty fast, too fast for anyone to see the change, so won't we just disappear? That's what I was trying to say.

Kingsdaughter
Apr 22nd 2008, 05:20 AM
Not all pre-tribbers think that the Holy Spirit will be removed, the wording in 2 Thess 2 of the restrainer is that He taken out of the way, not removed. We all agree that it is the power of God that is keeping Satan from bringing his antichrist until the appointed time, I believe that for us to think it is us that's holding him back is not biblically supported. So the right way to see it is that the restrainer will step aside so to speak, the text dosen't say removed.

I think that too many broad strokes are painted of "us", one that we believe no one will be saved in the event of a pre-trib rapture, I think not, but I do believe that those who come to the Lord will be martyred for their faith.

2 Thes 2:9-11
"The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

The above Scripture is concerning those who heard the truth and did not believe, or believed a gospel that did not make them see their true condition before God, they said the little sinner's prayer or they signed a card and lived carnally having the look of Christianity, but never coming to the knowledge of the truth. These are the ones that will get no second chance, that's the reason that we are to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. There is a lot of easy believism being taught today and abuses of our liberty in Christ,

I also believe that those who believed as Abraham believed before Calvary are not the Church either, as was said of the "trib Saints".


I see I covered some of the same as cwb, I noticed after I posted mine, sorry for the repeat but I'll let it stand.

Thanks Mark, I am going to ask the Lord to examine my heart. I think I'll go back and read your op again, theres alot of info in there, sorry I kind of skimmed over a few parts because I had something on my heart that I wanted to post.

Kingsdaughter
Apr 22nd 2008, 05:44 AM
Now, to be fair the other way, as a mod here I have to warn you that we don't do "Amil Only" or "Premil Only" type discussions. Anyone can comment - but as a mod, though, I don't like it when folks with a question get piled on. I didn't do the "math" after my response - three more like it afterwards was a bit too intense for me. So I wanted to put the proverbial "brakes" on, as it were.

I know you're a mod Rookie( screename is lit up in that lovely shade of fluorescent green:D) Why don't you guys have "post trib only" or "pre trib only"? That would cause more oneness amongst believers than division. THink about it...all the post tribs could come together,talk about end times and be encouraged, the same with pre trib. I know the purpose in putting us all together is so that believers can be one, but that ain't happenin! Well, I guess that's what pm's are for. Okay. But if I send a pm to a pre-trib and a post-trib responds?:o...then I give up.

Firstfruits
Apr 22nd 2008, 09:18 AM
Amen!
And.....
Matt 12:40 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the (heart of the earth)."

...And so, the thief on the cross was not in Paradise that day... nor could he be because Jesus himself wasn't there. Scripture is clear.

And the word "HELL" in Acts 2:31 is "HAIDES" in the Greek... and it means "GRAVE." Also, Acts 27 is a quote from Psalm 16:10 "You will not abandon me to the GRAVE." (SHEOL in Hebrew). The English has taken both the Hebrew word "SHEOL," and the Greek word, "HAIDES" and called it "HELL." It simply means the GRAVE... the Heart of the Earth...

Many confuse this because of the poor "insertion" and their misunderstanding of "hell" and they are left imagining Jesus in the "lake of fire."

If we can accept the words quoted from Psalm 16 which prophetically teach that Jesus went to 'sheol' (ie. the grave) when He died, then to be consistent with Bible teaching, we must accept that Peter meant the grave as well when He said that Jesus went to hades when he quotes Psalm 16 in Acts 2:27. Any other explanation would have Old Testament teaching contradicting the New Testament.

'Hell' is a word that was added (interpolated) to our Bibles and is not a translation of the original language. When we see this word in scripture its true meaning is 'the grave' or 'the pit' in the Old Testament. In the New Testament this word is used with reference to the burning 'rubbish tip' that was outside of Jerusalem, known as 'the valley of the son of Hinnom' or 'gehenna'.

'sheol' in the Hebrew is interpolated 'hell' or translated 'grave' or 'pit' in the Old Testament. Psalm 6:5, 9:17, 30:3; Numbers 16:30,33
'hades' in the Greek is translated 'grave' or interpolated 'hell' in the New Testament. 1Corinthians 15:55, Matthew11:21, 16:18
'gehenna' in the Greek is interpolated 'hell' in the New Testament. Matthew 5:22, 23:15; Luke 12:5 'Hell' is not a translation

'Hell' is not a translation. It is a word that has been inserted by translators into the Bible because of their preconceived ideas about a place of eternal torment. This idea is fast losing ground today as modern translators realise that Hebrew words like 'sheol', simply meant the grave to the original inspired writers of the Scriptures. The translators are still very shy though, and in many instances have left the word 'sheol' untranslated in modern Bible versions. This is because they can see that this word obviously means 'the grave' and not the traditional meaning. Rather than admit this though, and the folly of using the inserted word 'hell' in the past, they have just left the Hebrew word 'sheol' untranslated many times, and left the readers to make up their own minds.


"For You will not leave my SOUL IN SHEOL (Hell in the KJV), nor will You allow Your Holy One to see CORRUPTION." Psalm 16:10



"If I ascend up into heaven, You are there; if I make my BED IN HELL behold, You are there." Psalm 139:8


Thanks Alyssa,

Amen!!!!!

John146
Apr 22nd 2008, 06:08 PM
that was kind, thank you.

I figured since the title of this thread is 'for pretrib believers' and the title of my own post was 'i have a question for pretrib believers' that only pretrib believers would actually respond. silly me, what was I thinking.

In the original post by Mark F, he said "I don't mind if in a gracious manner those who (who believe differently) to join in and discuss among us as I am sure there is things to be gained and understood together regardless.".

cwb
Apr 22nd 2008, 10:14 PM
Well, that can go both ways can't it? I think it is good to hear what everyone is learning, because understanding comes with time and we, I, us could possibly realize at some point that we were wrong... or maybe even right. I do not desire to mock, and if I came off that way, I certainly do apologize.

God bless...



Point taken - I apologize for any unintentional distortions on my part

Apologies accepted. And I know that any distortions were untintentional. There may well be some pre-tribbers who believe there will be no Holy Spirit present on earth but there are also alot of pre-tribbers who do not believe that. I just want to clarify where I stand on that issue. I believe there are 9 manifestations of the Holy spirit as it says in I corinthians 12. I also believe that when born again believers operate those gifts, it has a big time impact on the adversary's kingdom. When Christian believers do things such as making perfect intercession via the Spirit by speaking in tongues, it restrains the adversary's kingdom and his man of sin from being revealed. When the church is taken out of here so are the people who are operating the gifts of the Spirit and the enemy will be able to do things he was not previously able to do such as bringing about the man of sin. I do believe the Holy Spirit will still be here but the function will be different. It will be like before Pentecost when the Spirit was upon people before it was available for people to be born again of the Spirit. That is just how I see it and I hope that clarifies my position.

cwb
Apr 22nd 2008, 10:32 PM
I also believe that we will be changed to have immortal bodies. In the twinkling of an eye...right? But doesn't that mean we will vanish? A twinkling of an eye is pretty fast, too fast for anyone to see the change, so won't we just disappear? That's what I was trying to say.

I just believe that us being changed to have an immortal body has to oocur before we are raptured. The reason I believe that is because I Thess. 4:16 says:



For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


and I cor 15:51-52


Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


I cor 15 says both the dead and living get changed at the same time. I thess. says the dead rise before the rapture. This tells me that we are changed to immortal before we are raptured. You may be right in that it could possibly all happen so fast that it looked like we vanished. Hope what I wrote there makes sense. let me know if not.

the rookie
Apr 23rd 2008, 02:27 AM
I know you're a mod Rookie( screename is lit up in that lovely shade of fluorescent green:D) Why don't you guys have "post trib only" or "pre trib only"? That would cause more oneness amongst believers than division. THink about it...all the post tribs could come together,talk about end times and be encouraged, the same with pre trib. I know the purpose in putting us all together is so that believers can be one, but that ain't happenin! Well, I guess that's what pm's are for. Okay. But if I send a pm to a pre-trib and a post-trib responds?:o...then I give up.

What, fluorescent green isn't my color...? :lol:

This subject has come up a few times as folks have asked - and the reason we say "no" isn't really for the reason you are thinking (so that believers can be one); we want the subjects to be open to any believer so that:

People don't get insulated, isolated, and irritated. :D

I've found that when people of like-minds don't fellowship with those who think differently, they get a funny attitude towards believers of other "stripes". If you think that the language was a bit tough towards one viewpoint or another in this thread, imagine what could be said without the other folks around?

The accountability is helpful, having folks with other views tempers our confidence a bit (most of the time), forces us to be softer with our language and more gracious and humble towards one another - in other words we are pressed to be godly and operate in biblical meekness and restraint. It's very healthy.

Plus, it forces us to really back up what we believe with solid "why"s that keep us from just congratulating each other with our brilliant rightness all the time.

I'll give you a sample of what I mean - by rubbing shoulders here, you won't see one group call the other "dispys" while the other group rails on the first group for anti-semitic "replacement theology".

In fact, in this very thread someone (rightly) pushed back on the characature of their belief that yours truly presented - which I had to own up to. Think about how many erroneous pictures of the "other guys" we would draw if we restricted participation by viewpoint?

Hope that helps...


Apologies accepted. And I know that any distortions were untintentional. There may well be some pre-tribbers who believe there will be no Holy Spirit present on earth but there are also alot of pre-tribbers who do not believe that. I just want to clarify where I stand on that issue. I believe there are 9 manifestations of the Holy spirit as it says in I corinthians 12. I also believe that when born again believers operate those gifts, it has a big time impact on the adversary's kingdom. When Christian believers do things such as making perfect intercession via the Spirit by speaking in tongues, it restrains the adversary's kingdom and his man of sin from being revealed. When the church is taken out of here so are the people who are operating the gifts of the Spirit and the enemy will be able to do things he was not previously able to do such as bringing about the man of sin. I do believe the Holy Spirit will still be here but the function will be different. It will be like before Pentecost when the Spirit was upon people before it was available for people to be born again of the Spirit. That is just how I see it and I hope that clarifies my position.

Thank you much for taking the time - this was very helpful!

Alyssa S
Apr 23rd 2008, 04:09 AM
The accountability is helpful, having folks with other views tempers our confidence a bit (most of the time), forces us to be softer with our language and more gracious and humble towards one another - in other words we are pressed to be godly and operate in biblical meekness and restraint. It's very healthy.


Amen!!
I know the Lord has used this forum as a type of "boot camp" for me. When I start to get a little "proud" of my position or step out of a gentle spirit... he will smack me upside the head...sometimes gently, sometimes not so gently. :lol: I think this is wonderful accountablity... because I "usually" will know (if or when) I step on someone's toes by certain responses to my posts... and the Spirit says "Stop it!!" Hopefully, the longer I walk this journey, I won't need to be reminded as much. :blush:




Plus, it forces us to really back up what we believe with solid "why"s that keep us from just congratulating each other with our brilliant rightness all the time.


Excellent point! So true!!
Great post Dennis...er...I mean Rookie!

Alyssa S
Apr 23rd 2008, 04:14 AM
Apologies accepted. And I know that any distortions were untintentional. There may well be some pre-tribbers who believe there will be no Holy Spirit present on earth but there are also alot of pre-tribbers who do not believe that. I just want to clarify where I stand on that issue. I believe there are 9 manifestations of the Holy spirit as it says in I corinthians 12. I also believe that when born again believers operate those gifts, it has a big time impact on the adversary's kingdom. When Christian believers do things such as making perfect intercession via the Spirit by speaking in tongues, it restrains the adversary's kingdom and his man of sin from being revealed. When the church is taken out of here so are the people who are operating the gifts of the Spirit and the enemy will be able to do things he was not previously able to do such as bringing about the man of sin. I do believe the Holy Spirit will still be here but the function will be different. It will be like before Pentecost when the Spirit was upon people before it was available for people to be born again of the Spirit. That is just how I see it and I hope that clarifies my position.

Thanks brother, for the graciousness. :) And thanks for clarifying your belief.

Kingsdaughter
Apr 23rd 2008, 03:59 PM
I just believe that us being changed to have an immortal body has to oocur before we are raptured. The reason I believe that is because I Thess. 4:16 says:



and I cor 15:51-52


I cor 15 says both the dead and living get changed at the same time. I thess. says the dead rise before the rapture. This tells me that we are changed to immortal before we are raptured. You may be right in that it could possibly all happen so fast that it looked like we vanished. Hope what I wrote there makes sense. let me know if not.

Yes, I agree that we are changed before we are "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air". But I was seeing them both happening together"in the twinkling of an eye".

Kingsdaughter
Apr 23rd 2008, 04:04 PM
What, fluorescent green isn't my color...? :lol:

This subject has come up a few times as folks have asked - and the reason we say "no" isn't really for the reason you are thinking (so that believers can be one); we want the subjects to be open to any believer so that:

People don't get insulated, isolated, and irritated. :D

I've found that when people of like-minds don't fellowship with those who think differently, they get a funny attitude towards believers of other "stripes". If you think that the language was a bit tough towards one viewpoint or another in this thread, imagine what could be said without the other folks around?

The accountability is helpful, having folks with other views tempers our confidence a bit (most of the time), forces us to be softer with our language and more gracious and humble towards one another - in other words we are pressed to be godly and operate in biblical meekness and restraint. It's very healthy.

Plus, it forces us to really back up what we believe with solid "why"s that keep us from just congratulating each other with our brilliant rightness all the time.

I'll give you a sample of what I mean - by rubbing shoulders here, you won't see one group call the other "dispys" while the other group rails on the first group for anti-semitic "replacement theology".

In fact, in this very thread someone (rightly) pushed back on the characature of their belief that yours truly presented - which I had to own up to. Think about how many erroneous pictures of the "other guys" we would draw if we restricted participation by viewpoint?

Hope that helps...


Wow! Very good points and I agree. Thanks... " brilliant rightness"?:lol:

Kingsdaughter
Apr 23rd 2008, 04:06 PM
Amen!!
I know the Lord has used this forum as a type of "boot camp" for me. When I start to get a little "proud" of my position or step out of a gentle spirit... he will smack me upside the head...sometimes gently, sometimes not so gently. :lol: I think this is wonderful accountablity... because I "usually" will know (if or when) I step on someone's toes by certain responses to my posts... and the Spirit says "Stop it!!" Hopefully, the longer I walk this journey, I won't need to be reminded as much. :blush:


LOL! He does that to me too Alyssa! At least we can agree on the Lord's chastening:lol:

Alyssa S
Apr 23rd 2008, 04:22 PM
LOL! He does that to me too Alyssa! At least we can agree on the Lord's chastening:lol:

Aww... yes, He is faithful about that isn't He?? :)
By the way, I have enjoyed many of your posts throughout the Forum. It is very apparent that you have a very sweet and gentle spirit. Thanks for your heart!!!

God bless...
Alyssa

Kingsdaughter
Apr 23rd 2008, 04:50 PM
Aww... yes, He is faithful about that isn't He?? :)
By they way, I have enjoyed many of your posts throughout the Forum. It is very apparent that you have a very sweet and gentle spirit. Thanks for your heart!!!

God bless...
Alyssa

Awww:hug: Okay, why am I crying?:cry: THere is no crying in "end times chat"!!!:lol: God bless you too Alyssa.

Alyssa S
Apr 23rd 2008, 05:02 PM
Awww:hug: Okay, why am I crying?:cry: THere is no crying in "end times chat"!!!:lol: God bless you too Alyssa.

Oh! Don't cry!!! :kiss: .... unless they are happy tears!
Thank you for the blessings... I need 'em! :)

Kingsdaughter
Apr 23rd 2008, 05:17 PM
There is so much in the op that I have questions about, so I thought I would start here...

Is there anything that has to happen before the rapture? In other words is the rapture the next "event" that is supposed to take place?

Let's say it's yes, we are waiting to hear the trump of God, right? How long after we are raptured will the tribuation begin?

I welcome all to post:)

quiet dove
Apr 23rd 2008, 07:07 PM
There is so much in the op that I have questions about, so I thought I would start here...

Is there anything that has to happen before the rapture? In other words is the rapture the next "event" that is supposed to take place?

Let's say it's yes, we are waiting to hear the trump of God, right? How long after we are raptured will the tribuation begin?

I welcome all to post:)

Depends on who you ask and what end time POV camp they are in. Being pre trib I'll answer for myself and that would be that there has never been a specific prophecy that must be fulfilled before the rapture. Or if there is, I don't know what it is.

Kingsdaughter
Apr 23rd 2008, 11:50 PM
Depends on who you ask and what end time POV camp they are in. Being pre trib I'll answer for myself and that would be that there has never been a specific prophecy that must be fulfilled before the rapture. Or if there is, I don't know what it is.

Wait a second, if there is no other specific prophecy that needs to happen before the rapture, then, well it could happen TODAY! right?( not date-setting, i am just saying that it could) Wow I just got goose pumps! Are you guys excited? I know I am!

cwb
Apr 23rd 2008, 11:54 PM
Wait a second, if there is no other specific prophecy that needs to happen before the rapture, then, well it could happen TODAY! right?( not date-setting, i am just saying that is could) Wow I just got goose pumps! Aren't you guys excited?

It could happen today :pp and that definitely is exciting.

quiet dove
Apr 24th 2008, 12:25 AM
Wait a second, if there is no other specific prophecy that needs to happen before the rapture, then, well it could happen TODAY! right?( not date-setting, i am just saying that it could) Wow I just got goose pumps! Are you guys excited? I know I am!

Yep, thats what it does to me. For me it is a big influence to want to live each moment in expectation. I mean any day could be our last on this earth, none of us know when that moment will come, but thinking about dieing from illness or getting hit by a train and leaving just doesn't have the same excitement about it, at least not the leaving/last moment part. After that yes, but not the hit by a train part.

The rapture is certainly no guarantee we will not see some hard times but the so many hungry, sick, or persecuted, upon being raptured all their pain stops!!

But getting raptured, WOW, yes!!