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View Full Version : Want to ask you something for clarification on both sides.



Jesusinmyheart
Apr 13th 2008, 03:33 PM
Now before you read on, please keep in mind that i believe in salvation by the work of Yeshua as a beginning point before all of what is written in this post. In other words, this discussion is about what happens after salvation. It's what happens after being led out of Egypt.

Quote:Jesusinmyheart

Where you may clash here again is, that i understand actions based on what the Spirit wrote into my heart to be required for sanctification, aka faith without works is dead.

Quote Studying2Show

I think you may have put the cart before the horse here. Your actions are not a REQUIREMENT for sanctification but should be rather a RESULT of your sanctification. Once we submit ourselves to Him completely, He is the potter. Yes, He uses His Word and His Holy Spirit to mold us but it is about us relinquishing our will to His, not about us performing properly. The performance is a result of our sanctification, not the cause of it.

Many people, not just in the Messianic movement, but in the traditional church as well get caught up in TRYING to perform and end up doing nothing more than adding stress onto themselves. When I was a smoker I tried over and over to quit even after I became a believer. My hubby and I were leading the Youth Department at our church and I would sneak out to the car to take a couple of puffs. I couldn't understand why it wasn't working. I believed! I had faith! And yet I kept right on being in bondage to cigarettes. It wasn't until I finally gave up TRYING and asked Him to do it for me that I was able, through Him, to finally quit. He is the One who sanctified me! It was not through all my attempts to perform on my own but through Him.


Now according to Denise it sounds to me as if i'm to do NOTHING, and just sit there and wait for motivation to come until God kicks my rear end into gear before i act upon what i know needs to be done?

Wouldn't that lead to faith without works, if no motivation ever comes?

ProjectPeter
Apr 13th 2008, 10:03 PM
I'm pretty sure that she didn't mean that you weren't to do anything. ;)

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 14th 2008, 12:41 AM
Well Ken, i don't think so either, but i wanted clarification on this.
What i'd like to learn is her understanding of "submitting to God"

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Apr 14th 2008, 01:04 AM
I'd recommend that you PM her on that. She's not likely going to see your thread in here... no one checks this section for new messages because it isn't set up such as that.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 14th 2008, 02:15 AM
I see Ken. Ok, then let me say something to you.

I don't hate you, though i hated some things you said, it caused me much grief and frustration. I spent a lot of energy and time here the past few days trying to explain my beliefs which i can assure you are really not far off from yours, though you can't see it.
It is possible that my trying to explain the already difficult to understand and even harder to accept beliefs in detail was even more confusing to you.

I need to let you know, that i was angry, i was sad, i was frustrated, and finally i saw in my heart emotions i do not like.
It wasn't healthy, nor was it benefiting anyone. It hurt my family and myself spending this much time and energy here trying to explain all these things into as much detail as i had to offer.

Perhaps it is also a contributor to being misunderstood that english is not my first language. It is not my native tongue. Though i speak it well there is a possibility that it causes things to come out wrong, which in turn could skew your whole perspective on me.

Anyway, i wanted to air this, and let it hang, and remain that i'm not leaving on hateful terms. I'm just rather sad that you cannot understand or see where i'm coming from though you think you know.

May God bless you, and keep you, and may He give you strength and understanding in abundance.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Apr 14th 2008, 10:20 AM
It is far from what I believe Tanja because your belief on obedience hangs around the Law of Moses totally. I do understand where you are coming from and I do think you have explained yourself just fine. I had no problem at all understanding you... none in the least.

I am glad though that you aren't leaving on hateful terms. Tanja... said this to you before and I'll do so again. If something like a Message board can anger and frustrate you to the point where it effects your personal walk with your family... then get off these things and never get on them again. There is nothing on the Internet that is worth that.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 14th 2008, 01:11 PM
It is far from what I believe Tanja because your belief on obedience hangs around the Law of Moses totally. I do understand where you are coming from and I do think you have explained yourself just fine. I had no problem at all understanding you... none in the least.Suffice to say i disagree you completely understand my position. The sacrifice of Yeshua and the Holy Spirit measure a great deal into this. But i shall let that rest now.


I am glad though that you aren't leaving on hateful terms. Tanja... said this to you before and I'll do so again. If something like a Message board can anger and frustrate you to the point where it effects your personal walk with your family... then get off these things and never get on them again. There is nothing on the Internet that is worth that.
I totally agree with that. I do know that i can get a couple of minutes here or there though. And it won't hurt.
But i will not want to entangle myself like i did this past week again.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Apr 14th 2008, 01:19 PM
Suffice to say i disagree you completely understand my position. The sacrifice of Yeshua and the Holy Spirit measure a great deal into this. But i shall let that rest now.

Of course you do... didn't expect anything else really.

watchinginawe
Apr 14th 2008, 09:35 PM
Hey Tanja, I wanted to say thanks for investing the time here. I really hope it didn't set you back somewhere else though. I enjoyed the conversation and you did ultimately make me feel better about your foundation.

I believe you when you say you have examined yourself and decided to take away the positives and not the negatives (bitterness, anger, frustration, etc.) from your participation here. I think that is a good and mature approach.

I was just offering a post in another thread and it reminded of this conversation. http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1605751#post1605751 or http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1605751#post1605751 . All of us must be diligent to never leave our first love. We build upon that. So, all in all, that was my point in all of this which was made so simply in that post by scripture.

By the way, after reading Denise's bit, I love the way she states it. That is dead on. The sanctification is the place you give in your heart to God's word. :hmm: Consider James on the subject:

James 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

James is talking about the tongue and our works manifesting what is in the heart. So, in your example, if the word of God is in your heart, good works result. That is what Denise is suggesting IMO.

James concludes:

17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

God Bless!

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 22nd 2008, 10:30 PM
Hey Tanja, I wanted to say thanks for investing the time here. I really hope it didn't set you back somewhere else though. I enjoyed the conversation and you did ultimately make me feel better about your foundation.

I'm glad, because i really don't think it's that different from yours aside the fact that i see it at a different level of depth. (meaning the Law)


I believe you when you say you have examined yourself and decided to take away the positives and not the negatives (bitterness, anger, frustration, etc.) from your participation here. I think that is a good and mature approach.
The whole conversation here made me re examine myself, and it actually gave room for the Holy Spirit to show me deeper connections i did not see before. It made my belief and faith come out stronger.
Anger is a very destructive emotion, and i do not like it, and i can't stand it in any way. It makes me sick. Therefore i try to distance myself and work through anything that causes me this kind of emotion.
If i have to i leave, because i do not like anger.

I will check out the thread you gave a link to, and see what it comes to.

Shalom,
Tanja