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Brother Mark
Apr 13th 2008, 10:06 PM
Anyone ever wonder if Jesus got his feelings hurt? I am thinking about doing a study on it and thought I would just throw out the question for consideration. So what do you all think? Did Jesus get his feelings hurt? If so, how did he handle it? If not, how did he avoid having hurt feelings?

9Marksfan
Apr 13th 2008, 10:24 PM
Anyone ever wonder if Jesus got his feelings hurt? I am thinking about doing a study on it and thought I would just throw out the question for consideration. So what do you all think? Did Jesus get his feelings hurt? If so, how did he handle it? If not, how did he avoid having hurt feelings?

He was a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief - so of course his feelings got hurt - he wouldn't have been human otherwise! I reckon being misunderstood by those closest to Him would have grieved Him greatly - being let down by them in the garden and then abandoned by them - being jeered at and mocked on the cross - read Ps 22 and that is CLEARLY a man whose feelings have been hurt in a MAJOR way - and it's so obviously Christ that is spoken of in the Psalm - John 19 makes that abundantly plain...

Brother Mark
Apr 13th 2008, 10:25 PM
He was a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief - so of course his feelings got hurt - he wouldn't have been human otherwise! I reckon being misunderstood by those closest to Him would have grieved Him greatly - being let down by them in the garden and then abandoned by them - being jeered at and mocked on the cross - read Ps 22 and that is CLEARLY a man whose feelings have been hurt in a MAJOR way - and it's so obviously Christ that is spoken of in the Psalm - John 19 makes that abundantly plain...

But why do you think those are hurt feelings? Or offenses?

For instance, after seeing in Peter that he would deny him, then prophesying it, he said to Peter "My soul is sorrowful unto death, come pray with me".

I have thoughts going both ways. I am interested in reading what folks have to say about the whole issue. I haven't done any study yet so I will probably ask questions about it all the way through...

menJesus
Apr 13th 2008, 10:29 PM
I always thought His feelings were hurt at least 2 times - once, when He was teaching in the temple while His parents were looking for Him, and again at the wedding feast, when Mary asked Him to turn the water into wine.

The Scripture states His responses, in both instances.

Luke 2:45-49 (King James Version)

45And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.

46And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.

47And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.

48And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

49And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?


John 2:2-4 (King James Version)

2And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.

3And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.

4Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

9Marksfan
Apr 13th 2008, 10:42 PM
But why do you think those are hurt feelings? Or offenses?

Because they ought to have known better - they ought to have stuck with Him as His friends - it's human to be saddened when those close to us let us dow, surely? Nothing sinful there?


For instance, after seeing in Peter that he would deny him, then prophesying it, he said to Peter "My soul is sorrowful unto death, come pray with me".

Have never connected the two before - and I don't think they are. He's starting to anticipate the cross, surely?

menJesus
Apr 13th 2008, 10:51 PM
I agree with 9Marksfan, the disciples falling asleep in the garden must have hurt His feelings, even though He was fully Jesus the Savior, at that time.

Mark 14:33-37 (King James Version)

33And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;

34And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

35And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

36And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

37And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?

cheech
Apr 14th 2008, 12:18 AM
As was noted...Jesus was human and I'm sure his feelings got hurt often, but he was strong enough to continue on, not allowing the hurt to get in the way of his mission. I think of the following often:

Luke 4:24
24"I tell you the truth," he continued, "no prophet is accepted in his hometown.

I'm sure in some way his feelings had to be hurt as the following happened all because he spoke the truth:

Luke 4:28-29
28All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. 29They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him down the cliff. 30But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.

I think of this whenever I find the courage to speak the Word of God to my family. I have a wonderful family (brothers and sisters, mom, aunt, etc) but for all the years they went to church (mom and aunt especially) it can be hard speaking the word to them. My brothers and sisters are ok but my mom and aunt will listen for a short time then change the subject (this is only after a few sentences). I guess you look to holy to some. Sometimes my feelings get hurt so I struggle when speaking to them of God's word, but it doesn't stop me the next time. This is why I feel Christ, being human, had to hurt some. He spoke the truth and while the town accepted some of it, they rejected other parts what he said and drove Him out of town.

He made a huge sacrifice for so many yet many didn't and still don't accept Him. They chose a murderer over Jesus to be released. I'm sure God our Father gets his feelings hurt all the time. We are made in the image of God and we were made with feelings...feelings God has. If my child rejected me and never spoke to me, I would be in deep agony. I'm sure God feels the same way.

Brother Mark
Apr 14th 2008, 02:50 AM
Thanks for the input folks. I am interested in seeing if I can find a passage where it speaks of his feelings. Sometimes the things Jesus did amaze me. I am wondering how he felt and when he felt it and how he dealt with the emotions.

I see some good posts above and they're all something to ponder. I will be interested to hear more if you guys think of something else to add.

RevLogos
Apr 14th 2008, 03:55 AM
I'm sure Jesus felt lonely quite often. Then as now.

How would you feel if most everyone who proclaimed to be your friend never called you unless they were in trouble? So often people pray when things go wrong, look to Jesus to help them in their time of need. But when things are going alright, they don't pray, don't read the Bible. Lukewarm as John calls it.

That would make me a very lonely person indeed. Would it hurt your feelings?

Sometimes when I pray I ask Jesus if HE needs a hug.

Kingsdaughter
Apr 14th 2008, 06:57 AM
Yes, but are we talking about the same emotion? The disciples left Him, yes, I'm sure it grieved His heart, but did they hurt His feelings? I guess I'm just seeing it as two different emotions. What do you guys think?

Brother Mark
Apr 14th 2008, 08:07 AM
Yes, but are we talking about the same emotion? The disciples left Him, yes, I'm sure it grieved His heart, but did they hurt His feelings? I guess I'm just seeing it as two different emotions. What do you guys think?

That is the exact question I am asking myself about all these things... It is on thing to be hurt over a situation. It is another for that situation to hurt or offend my personal feelings.

menJesus
Apr 14th 2008, 08:56 AM
Yes, but are we talking about the same emotion? The disciples left Him, yes, I'm sure it grieved His heart, but did they hurt His feelings? I guess I'm just seeing it as two different emotions. What do you guys think?

I know exactly what you mean. And yes, I think his feelings were hurt at the time. Maybe at a few others. He was fully God, but fully man, too, right?

I think that once He began His ministry He was grieved in his heart, for the most part, because He knew that He, and His Word, would be rejected by some. But then He knew how it was to be, and what would come to pass for Him. So I think He accepted all that...

But the two examples I stated, He hadn`t started His ministry yet, so He was fully human at those times.

And in the garden? He was fully man at that time, too, and I believe it hurt Him that they could not watch with Him, but fell asleep instead.

9Marksfan
Apr 14th 2008, 09:26 AM
I'm sure Jesus felt lonely quite often. Then as now.

Ho can Jesus be lonely now? He has the highest place that Heaven affords (the right hand of the Father) and is worshipped by angels, archangels and all the spirits of just men made perfect? He is entirely happy and waits for His enemies to become His footstool....


How would you feel if most everyone who proclaimed to be your friend never called you unless they were in trouble? So often people pray when things go wrong, look to Jesus to help them in their time of need. But when things are going alright, they don't pray, don't read the Bible. Lukewarm as John calls it.

The feeling Jesus has towards such people is not hurt but anger - read Rev 3....


That would make me a very lonely person indeed. Would it hurt your feelings?

But you've not been highly exalted, as Jesus has!


Sometimes when I pray I ask Jesus if HE needs a hug.

Do you really think that is a prayer that is honouring to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the Sovereign Lord of the Universe?

9Marksfan
Apr 14th 2008, 09:31 AM
That is the exact question I am asking myself about all these things... It is on thing to be hurt over a situation. It is another for that situation to hurt or offend my personal feelings.

Sorry - what IS the distinction? I once did a seried of sermons on the suferings of Christ - physical, emotional and spiritual - I'm trying to remember what passage I used for emotional - I'm sure it was either from Psalms or Isaiah.

Brother Mark
Apr 14th 2008, 12:14 PM
Sorry - what IS the distinction? I once did a seried of sermons on the suferings of Christ - physical, emotional and spiritual - I'm trying to remember what passage I used for emotional - I'm sure it was either from Psalms or Isaiah.

Oh, he definitely suffered emotional pain. When he went to the garden to pray, he asked 3 guys to come with him because his soul was sorrowful unto death. That was clearly an emotional response.

Let me explain an answer to your earlier question.... Jesus knew Peter would deny him. But even knowing he would deny him, he asked Peter to come and pray with him in the garden. Those two situations occurred very closely together. If Jesus was offended, would he have desired to be so close to Peter during his difficult time?

When Jesus was on the cross and folks were crucifying him, he prayed "Father forgive them, they don't know what they are doing...". Did he take the actions of folks against him as personal, and therefor have offended and hurt feelings?

Brother Mark
Apr 14th 2008, 12:20 PM
OK, to steer this thread a little...

Instead of looking at our human side, our emotions and trying to find them in scripture, can we look at scripture and see if those emotions are there before we decide?

In other words, is it possible that Jesus did not take things against him personally? If he didn't consider it a personal attack, then perhaps his personal feelings weren't what was hurt. He entrusted himself to God...

I am not saying his feelings weren't hurt. I am just wondering about it. When those folks crucified him, he recognized they were blinded. Were they not blinded, they would not have done it. In other words, because he recognized it, he did not take the crucifixion personal. What else did he do this with? Was he hurt by it? Oh yes!

Just wondering...:hmm:

Brother Mark
Apr 14th 2008, 01:41 PM
Some additional thoughts to add....

So someone sins against us, if we take it personal and our feelings get hurt, is that a sign that we are self centered? Do we miss the potential of what is going on in the other persons life? If we consider what is happening to them, do our emotions then become less volatile and more steady.

This morning, I was thinking about a situation that hurt my feelings. While I was focused on the wrong that was done, my hurt feelings intensified. When I focused on my hurt feelings, my thoughts on the wrong done intensified. But then, as I began to focus on the offender and began an earnest prayer for them, I began to see them in the snare of the enemy. Seeing this, my heart had compassion on them and I realized what was going on in their life could be potentially far more devastating than what I perceived they had done to me. It was then that my hurt feelings lessened and a fervency of intercession hit. But as soon as my focus turned inward again, my hurt feelings resumed.

Hence the question... did Christ have hurt feelings like we experience them? I am thinking he got hurt, but that he was not as self centered as we are and thus the pain was lessened. Yet, because he painfully took up his cross every day, he was a man of sorrows and ready for such trials as hurt feelings.

I haven't worked it all out yet. Just throwing things out there for further discussion.

9Marksfan
Apr 14th 2008, 02:54 PM
Some additional thoughts to add....

So someone sins against us, if we take it personal and our feelings get hurt, is that a sign that we are self centered? Do we miss the potential of what is going on in the other persons life? If we consider what is happening to them, do our emotions then become less volatile and more steady.

This morning, I was thinking about a situation that hurt my feelings. While I was focused on the wrong that was done, my hurt feelings intensified. When I focused on my hurt feelings, my thoughts on the wrong done intensified. But then, as I began to focus on the offender and began an earnest prayer for them, I began to see them in the snare of the enemy. Seeing this, my heart had compassion on them and I realized what was going on in their life could be potentially far more devastating than what I perceived they had done to me. It was then that my hurt feelings lessened and a fervency of intercession hit. But as soon as my focus turned inward again, my hurt feelings resumed.

Hence the question... did Christ have hurt feelings like we experience them? I am thinking he got hurt, but that he was not as self centered as we are and thus the pain was lessened. Yet, because he painfully took up his cross every day, he was a man of sorrows and ready for such trials as hurt feelings.

I haven't worked it all out yet. Just throwing things out there for further discussion.

Excellent points, BM - there are occasions when Christ was deeply moved - often by the unbelief of the disciples.........

Brother Mark
Apr 14th 2008, 02:59 PM
Excellent points, BM - there are occasions when Christ was deeply moved - often by the unbelief of the disciples.........

Yes he was. I see where he got angry at times. Frustrated at times. He was depressed in the garden. I see these emotions in Christ. He was grieved at their unbelief at times. But was that a hurt feeling over not being trusted as we feel when a friend doesn't trust us? Or was that a grief over what their unbelief would cost them?

I see passages like "he was rejected" and "he came unto his own and his own received him not" and "he was not a comely man that any would desire him" and other such things. Then I am wondering what his feelings were when such things occurred.

When my feelings are hurt, I often have to take time to work through them before I can respond correctly. But Jesus, he responded correctly immediately. How was he able to do so? He was my example and can help me respond correctly immediately as well. I think one reason he was able to always respond correctly in the moment was that his soul was healthy and had no wounds caused by sin. Anyway, there is a lot here to explore. I appreciate your input and look forward to more of your thoughts.

Kingsdaughter
Apr 14th 2008, 07:28 PM
I love that Jesus was totally secure in who He was, even though the passage says that "He was rejected" and "He came to that which was His own and His own received Him not". Did that change how He felt about Himself and God the Father? No. So how could they hurt His feelings? He didn't take it personally because He understood that they were blinded. They rejected Him, does that mean He felt unloved or unworthy? The passage says that His own did not receive Him, does that mean He felt that He was unacceptable? Of coarse not.Do you see where I am getting at here? Or am I just confusing everyone.

When someone sins against me, my natural reaction is that it makes me feel bad about myself and and a little bit angry at the person who done it. And so my feelings are hurt. But Jesus says that when someone sins against us we are to forgive them. He also said for us to love our enemies and pray for those who hurt us, not only pray for them but bless them as well. How is that supposed to make ME feel better? After all, I am the one who was hurt. Yes, God is a genius, when I obey and I forgive and pray blessings over that person, then my hurt feelings begin to go away.:ppThere have been a few times that the LOrd has opened my eyes to see how much the other person is hurting, it is then that I am grieved in my heart for that person. This is why I was separating the two emotions.

TMeeks
Apr 14th 2008, 08:47 PM
What shocked me as I pondered the question is just how difficult it is to pin down the concept of 'hurt feelings' to the point where it was possible to determine if Jesus' feelings were. It turns out that it's a term that covers a lot of emotional ground. I really had a difficult time trying to get a handle on the limits of what constitutes hurt feelings.

But, I was able to narrow it enough to consider that for our feelings to be hurt, we have to take in some information that is contrary to our expectations from others or feelings about ourselves. We see it as a form of rejection.

If we expect another to disappoint us, our feelings don't get hurt even though we have negative emotions.

So, it's clear that the enemies of Jesus could never have hurt his feelings. They did just as expected.

So, any hurt feelings had to come from someone that Jesus had high hopes in or who would be expected to be accepting rather than rejecting. And, the most likely time and source would have been his siblings even before he began his ministry.

John 7:3-5
3 Jesus' brothers said to him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. 4 No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world." 5 For even his own brothers did not believe in him.

The Bible doesn't tell us about the 30 years of Jesus' life before his public ministry began. But, it's safe to assume that he got a lot of ribbing from his unbelieving brothers if he brought up the fact that he was the Messiah. That HAD to have hurt his feelings in the truest sense of the word.

Kingsdaughter
Apr 14th 2008, 10:26 PM
Hi there TMeeks, yeah, I hear what you're saying, but remember that passage when Jesus was talking to the crowd and His mother and brothers were outside asking to speak with Him. Someone told Him that they were outside requesting to speak to Him and His reaction was not what many of us would have expected and so He said this...

Matthew 12:48-50 NKJV
48He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

So if Jesus had that kind of attitude, then why would it hurt His feelings if His brothers(in the flesh) didn't believe who He was? He knew the hearts of all men, including His brothers didn't He already know what they were going to say before they said it? WHat do you think?

Brother Mark
Apr 14th 2008, 10:44 PM
OK, still pondering this whole thing, and like several have mentioned, it's not so easy to get our minds around. I like what several folks have said and have even wondered myself. For instance, what is the meaning of hurt feelings? What does that constitute?

On the other hand, Jesus was fully human and experienced human emotions. I am sure he felt rejected, despised, unloved, etc. I also believe those things pierced him. What I am not sure about is what exactly did those feel like to him. I am waffling on the issue. At one time I wondered if he got his feelings hurt. Then another, I wonder if he did not. I go back and forth. One thing I am settling on, Jesus did not respond internally the way I do and thus saved himself much emotional pain as a result. But God did not keep him free from emotional pain either as we see how his soul was distressed unto death in the Garden.

Anyway, I really appreciate every one's thoughts. I hope you folks keep posting and bringing more and more to light. Expectations certainly play a role in hurt feelings and we know Jesus did not entrust himself to man or put his hope in man.

John 2:23-25

23 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, beholding His signs which He was doing. 24 But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men, 25 and because He did not need anyone to bear witness concerning man for He Himself knew what was in man.
NASB

Yet, he still had friends that denied him, that left him, that betrayed him, etc.

TMeeks
Apr 14th 2008, 10:53 PM
Hi there TMeeks, yeah, I hear what you're saying, but remember that passage when Jesus was talking to the crowd and His mother and brothers were outside asking to speak with Him. Someone told Him that they were outside requesting to speak to Him and His reaction was not what many of us would have expected and so He said this...

Matthew 12:48-50 NKJV
48He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

So if Jesus had that kind of attitude, then why would it hurt His feelings if His brothers(in the flesh) didn't believe who He was? He knew the hearts of all men, including His brothers didn't He already know what they were going to say before they said it? WHat do you think?
Perhaps that is why I focused more on the younger years of Jesus. It's a bit easier to see him at eight being picked on and feeling badly. But, we don't even know if that was true.

Brother Mark
Apr 14th 2008, 10:55 PM
Hi there TMeeks, yeah, I hear what you're saying, but remember that passage when Jesus was talking to the crowd and His mother and brothers were outside asking to speak with Him. Someone told Him that they were outside requesting to speak to Him and His reaction was not what many of us would have expected and so He said this...

Matthew 12:48-50 NKJV
48He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

So if Jesus had that kind of attitude, then why would it hurt His feelings if His brothers(in the flesh) didn't believe who He was? He knew the hearts of all men, including His brothers didn't He already know what they were going to say before they said it? WHat do you think?

There are many such instances in Christ's life where it is apparent he cannot be manipulated by others. he was so healthy in his soul, that his emotions could not be used against him.

Brother Mark
Apr 14th 2008, 10:56 PM
Perhaps that is why I focused more on the younger years of Jesus. It's a bit easier to see him at eight being picked on and feeling badly. But, we don't even know if that was true.

We know he was a "man of sorrows" and had bad feelings at times.

I liked your definition of hurt feelings. Perhaps you can expound on it a little more. Once we reach agreement on what it means, then perhaps we can reach agreement on what Christ experienced.

TMeeks
Apr 14th 2008, 11:17 PM
This is always dangerous for me because Christians feel comfortable talking about feelings and emotions; but, they don't feel comfortable with the physiology behind them. But, the question was asked... what constitutes a hurt feeling?

There are two places in our body that have neurons built for storing memories and emotions. The primary place is our brain. But, there is a much smaller; but still significant, mini-brain in our heart that is tied directly to our brain via the limbic system. In addition to these neurons, there are special cells in our brain that act a bit like a "Right & Wrong" cop. There are only two types of memories 'fear' memories and 'faith' memories. All of our thoughts can be brought under one of these umbrellas.

Our emotions and bodily reactions are all based on the electrochemical mix that is generated by the neurons in reaction to either external stimuli or internal memories. What is amazing is that all of these various systems work so well together and SO fast.

One of the specialized areas in our brain is where bondings are formed. And, much of what we call 'hurt feelings' probably relates to violating or threatening these bonds. If I love my wife, my brain builds a set of physical molecules that establish a bond. If she tell me that she doesn't love me, then somehow the brain hears those words and realizes that it poses a threat to those bonds... which then cranks out the chemicals that cause emotional pain and stress. I FEAR loss. So, my feelings are hurt.

All of us, having a sin nature and living in a sinful world, have many fear memories. But, as far as I can tell, Jesus had only one true fear and that was displayed in the garden before His crucifixion. That fear was the horror of the separation between himself and the Father that was to take place at the moment He became sin for us in order to redeem us. In all of his existence (which was eternal) Jesus had not even the slightest bit of sin.. not even a speck as small as a grain of baby powder.

But, aside from this one fear, could he have had memories of negative experiences that brought stress chemicals into his body? We know he wept on more than one occasion. If so, then negative memories, in and of themselves, don't constitute sin. It is what we do with those negative memories that determines sin or not sin.

It's all very fascinating. But, I can't envision really being able to definitively figure it out.

Brother Mark
Apr 14th 2008, 11:25 PM
Interesting. OK, the physical part is a little over my head. But the emotional part isn't. What I am really interested in is the emotional response. For instance, as I mentioned before, we can often see Jesus response to being hurt. On the cross, he did not have to get away from the situation to forgive. If I am really upset, my voice quivers and I have to remain quiet in order to remain composed. Yet, in the midst of the trial, Jesus said "Father forgive them". Immediately after knowing and telling Peter that he would deny him, he asked Peter to go with him into the garden. So Peter's impending denial did not seem to phase Christ's interaction with Peter at the time even though the sin and the denial was in him.

So Jesus, while probably hurt, was not hurt to the point his emotions controlled him. Even so, he still desired Peter to be with him and wanted to share some prayer time during his darkest hour. Jesus did go pray alone, but he made a point of taking Peter, James and John further with him.

Then, as those came to betray him he said "friend, betrayest thou me with a kiss". To me, that seemed another offer to Judas for reconciliation. I am just amazed to see how Jesus handled these situations.

TMeeks
Apr 14th 2008, 11:30 PM
We know he was a "man of sorrows" and had bad feelings at times.

I liked your definition of hurt feelings. Perhaps you can expound on it a little more. Once we reach agreement on what it means, then perhaps we can reach agreement on what Christ experienced.
I'm not even sure we can accomplish even that. But, it should be enlightening to try. I'll throw these ideas out there for discussion.


Hurt feelings always come from disappointment.
Most hurt feelings have their root in our wanting to be lifted up or accepted.
Some hurt feelings come from external disappointments
Some hurt feelings come from internal disappointments
The level of hurt depends on the level of investment we have in being a part of someone's life
The level of hurt depends on how closely reality matches our expectations
Those who hurt, hurt others
Hurt feelings are chemical responses
Hurt feelings are toxic to our bodies due to the chemicals.I'm not sure how much they help us define 'hurt feelings' but as hard as it is to pin down, we sure know it when we feel it.

Brother Mark
Apr 14th 2008, 11:35 PM
I'm not even sure we can accomplish even that. But, it should be enlightening to try. I'll throw these ideas out there for discussion.

Hurt feelings always come from disappointment.
Most hurt feelings have their root in our wanting to be lifted up or accepted.
Some hurt feelings come from external disappointments
Some hurt feelings come from internal disappointments
The level of hurt depends on the level of investment we have in being a part of someone's life
The level of hurt depends on how closely reality matches our expectations
Those who hurt, hurt others
Hurt feelings are chemical responses
Hurt feelings are toxic to our bodies due to the chemicals.I'm not sure how much they help us define 'hurt feelings' but as hard as it is to pin down, we sure know it when we feel it.

Excellent! Now this is something I can work with going forward. I think I can find scripture to deal with some of these causes. I know anger comes from unmet expectations. Anyway, thanks for this post. I will follow up after I have time to ponder it some more.

RoadWarrior
Apr 14th 2008, 11:46 PM
That is the exact question I am asking myself about all these things... It is on thing to be hurt over a situation. It is another for that situation to hurt or offend my personal feelings.

I tend to agree with this distinction. I do not think Jesus was so insecure and immature to "get His feelings hurt". Nor do I hear him "taking offense" over anything.

If He was "lonely", He knew where to get that need met, He would go away by Himself to speak to the Father.

While Jesus was "fully man" I do not for a moment think that He was a childish man. Even when He was a child, we do not see Him being intimidated by the elders in the temple.

If you are looking for His emotion, look at the times when He wept - it was not for Himself. He wept over Jerusalem, like a mother hen mourning for the lost chicks. He wept for the sorrow of the sisters of Lazarus. His hurts were not for Himself, not ever. They were always for us - the people He came to die for.

That is how I see Jesus.

TMeeks
Apr 14th 2008, 11:47 PM
Interesting. OK, the physical part is a little over my head. But the emotional part isn't. What I am really interested in is the emotional response. For instance, as I mentioned before, we can often see Jesus response to being hurt. On the cross, he did not have to get away from the situation to forgive. If I am really upset, my voice quivers and I have to remain quiet in order to remain composed. Yet, in the midst of the trial, Jesus said "Father forgive them". Immediately after knowing and telling Peter that he would deny him, he asked Peter to go with him into the garden. So Peter's impending denial did not seem to phase Christ's interaction with Peter at the time even though the sin and the denial was in him.

So Jesus, while probably hurt, was not hurt to the point his emotions controlled him. Even so, he still desired Peter to be with him and wanted to share some prayer time during his darkest hour. Jesus did go pray alone, but he made a point of taking Peter, James and John further with him.

Then, as those came to betray him he said "friend, betrayest thou me with a kiss". To me, that seemed another offer to Judas for reconciliation. I am just amazed to see how Jesus handled these situations.
Jesus didn't have the baggage that you and I carry around called 'The Old Man'. And, he had something that you and I don't have, freedom from the war between the "old Man' and 'New Man'. These are huge differences in being able to face daily assults.

I know that you mentioned that the physical thing was hard to grasp; but, hang in there with me here. As a child, you didn't have a well developed sense of what was important and what was not. So, you stored a lot of painful things in your brain and attached importance to them when as an adult you would simply dismiss it. Dismissed memories are pruned away during sleep and don't affect us much. But, a child's lack of being able to dismiss these things can firmly cement the memory in place, even if they do not recall it completely.

So, what?

Suppose your mother harshly reprimanded you as a child, with a big scowl, when you knocked over your milk. And, then she called you 'Bad'. A memory is stored. Now, forward 30 years and you knock over your milk and your wife scowls at you. Without ever realizing it or wanting it to happen, a flood of negative chemicals sears through your body and you instantly react starting a HUGE argument. But, in reality, your reaction had little directly with your wife, accept that the scowl reminded you of Mom's accusation that you were 'BAD". You reacted out of fear that your wife also thought you were bad; because, that's what happens when milk is spilled.

Jesus had NONE of this kind of baggage in his life because it is clear that while his body grew, his brain development was well beyond his years. So, if your wife scowled at him it wouldn't dredge up the old fears that are dredged up in you. So many of the problems we face aren't really with who is right in front of us; but, who hurt us in the past.

Does this difference between Jesus and us make sense?

RoadWarrior
Apr 15th 2008, 12:21 AM
Jesus didn't have the baggage that you and I carry around called 'The Old Man'. And, he had something that you and I don't have, freedom from the war between the "old Man' and 'New Man'. These are huge differences in being able to face daily assults.

I know that you mentioned that the physical thing was hard to grasp; but, hang in there with me here. As a child, you didn't have a well developed sense of what was important and what was not. So, you stored a lot of painful things in your brain and attached importance to them when as an adult you would simply dismiss it. Dismissed memories are pruned away during sleep and don't affect us much. But, a child's lack of being able to dismiss these things can firmly cement the memory in place, even if they do not recall it completely.

So, what?

Suppose your mother harshly reprimanded you as a child, with a big scowl, when you knocked over your milk. And, then she called you 'Bad'. A memory is stored. Now, forward 30 years and you knock over your milk and your wife scowls at you. Without ever realizing it or wanting it to happen, a flood of negative chemicals sears through your body and you instantly react starting a HUGE argument. But, in reality, your reaction had little directly with your wife, accept that the scowl reminded you of Mom's accusation that you were 'BAD". You reacted out of fear that your wife also thought you were bad; because, that's what happens when milk is spilled.

Jesus had NONE of this kind of baggage in his life because it is clear that while his body grew, his brain development was well beyond his years. So, if your wife scowled at him it wouldn't dredge up the old fears that are dredged up in you. So many of the problems we face aren't really with who is right in front of us; but, who hurt us in the past.

Does this difference between Jesus and us make sense?

It does to me. Thank you for bringing this out. I had responded to a "Page One" post, not realizing there was already a Page Three in the making! So when I answered it was without taking into consideration the direction the thread had taken. My apologies.

Reading your explanation, TMeeks, I understand why we think of the "hurt feelings" response as a childish response. It is an emotional response that is linked to a childhood hurt.

Mark, I think you were on the right path when you turned the focus onto the person who hurt you, and realized the pain/suffering inside them that caused them to do or say something hurtful. We heard a great sermon in our church just last week that spoke plainly to this. We are all walking around with internal hurts, and it doesn't take much of a bump to aggravate the pain of the old wound. When someone hurts us, it is generally an action on their part meant to protect some wound in themselves.

Daniel Goleman wrote a book: Emotional Intelligence: Why it can matter more than IQ. The first few chapters of this book will change the way a person approaches problems in life. It explains very well the concepts that TMeeks is sharing.

Brother Mark
Apr 15th 2008, 12:25 AM
I tend to agree with this distinction. I do not think Jesus was so insecure and immature to "get His feelings hurt". Nor do I hear him "taking offense" over anything.

If He was "lonely", He knew where to get that need met, He would go away by Himself to speak to the Father.

While Jesus was "fully man" I do not for a moment think that He was a childish man. Even when He was a child, we do not see Him being intimidated by the elders in the temple.

If you are looking for His emotion, look at the times when He wept - it was not for Himself. He wept over Jerusalem, like a mother hen mourning for the lost chicks. He wept for the sorrow of the sisters of Lazarus. His hurts were not for Himself, not ever. They were always for us - the people He came to die for.

That is how I see Jesus.

Oh yea, I think we are seeing something similar. Yet, I do see Jesus hurting for himself in the Garden. There was something he didn't want to experience that troubled his soul to the point of death.

Like you, I do not think he agonized over how others treated him but I do think he "felt" their rejection. I just think there is something there for me to mature in. That's why I keep asking and poking around. God did show me something today that I hope to share a little later. It's a combination of this thread and the "watching and prayer" thread. I am beginning to see what he is doing in my life and why. He's got his finger on something.

RoadWarrior
Apr 15th 2008, 01:24 AM
Oh yea, I think we are seeing something similar. Yet, I do see Jesus hurting for himself in the Garden. There was something he didn't want to experience that troubled his soul to the point of death.

Like you, I do not think he agonized over how others treated him but I do think he "felt" their rejection. I just think there is something there for me to mature in. That's why I keep asking and poking around. God did show me something today that I hope to share a little later. It's a combination of this thread and the "watching and prayer" thread. I am beginning to see what he is doing in my life and why. He's got his finger on something.

For sure, Jesus "felt" the whips, the thorns, the abuse and the scorn, the nails, the hot sun. Those are all physical things. In the Garden the night before, He knew all that was coming, and He "felt" the dread of it, the horror of what it would be. That is emotional.

But you are asking about something beyond that. When He looked at Judas and knew that he would betray Him, surely it was painful. After all, He had chosen Judas. Was Judas chosen for this specific purpose? We don't have that information in scripture. But we know that Jesus said "woe" comes to the one who betrays Him.

When Jesus looked at Peter and knew that Peter would deny Him 3 times, that must have hurt. But Jesus loved Peter, and prayed for Peter, that his faith would not fail. He also told him that it would happen, ahead of time so that Peter could have something to hold onto when he realized what he had done.

Jesus poured Himself into the disciples/apostles for 3 years, experiencing frustration with their inability to "get it". We saw that several times in the recent study by Tanya on the book of Mark.

Right now we are seeing what Jesus did about that frustration. He prayed, He asked His Father to send the Holy Spirit to accomplish that which Jesus had not accomplished in the flesh. He received a promise from the Father. In Acts chapter 2, we see Jesus seated at the right hand of the Father, and what does He do? He takes that gift of the Holy Spirit and pours it out on His disciples. In doing this, He gives them the power to do what they could not do in themselves, even when Jesus was right there with them, or a few feet away from them, physically.

Now the disciples had received the power. The same power that Jesus had when He walked on the earth. I think we will see in the book of Acts, that Peter did not always wield that power properly. He was still slow to "get it."

We are often like Peter. We don't quite get it, we don't know that we have that wonderful power. Or, even if we realize that we have it, we don't really know how to wield it. We think it is for our own benefit, but it is for the benefit of the Kingdom.

As TMeeks indicated, it is the problem of the Old Man. We need to learn how to walk in the New Man.

Great thread. Very thought-provoking.

Brother Mark
Apr 15th 2008, 09:37 AM
Jesus didn't have the baggage that you and I carry around called 'The Old Man'. And, he had something that you and I don't have, freedom from the war between the "old Man' and 'New Man'. These are huge differences in being able to face daily assults.

But he still had to deal with "flesh" in the same way Adam and Eve and we do. In other words, he had to die to himself and say no to the forbidden fruit. While Jesus doesn't have the 'sin nature' in him as we do, he does deal with flesh. That is why he is such a great example for us! Once we are saved and "all things become new" we can learn from Him how to deal with our daily issues. That's what I am doing here. Since something kept popping up in my life, I got to looking at Jesus life to see how he dealt with it. And low and behold, you pop in here and give me something concrete and others chime in and God begins to paint a picture of what's going on.


I know that you mentioned that the physical thing was hard to grasp; but, hang in there with me here. As a child, you didn't have a well developed sense of what was important and what was not. So, you stored a lot of painful things in your brain and attached importance to them when as an adult you would simply dismiss it. Dismissed memories are pruned away during sleep and don't affect us much. But, a child's lack of being able to dismiss these things can firmly cement the memory in place, even if they do not recall it completely.

So, what?

Suppose your mother harshly reprimanded you as a child, with a big scowl, when you knocked over your milk. And, then she called you 'Bad'. A memory is stored. Now, forward 30 years and you knock over your milk and your wife scowls at you. Without ever realizing it or wanting it to happen, a flood of negative chemicals sears through your body and you instantly react starting a HUGE argument. But, in reality, your reaction had little directly with your wife, accept that the scowl reminded you of Mom's accusation that you were 'BAD". You reacted out of fear that your wife also thought you were bad; because, that's what happens when milk is spilled.

Jesus had NONE of this kind of baggage in his life because it is clear that while his body grew, his brain development was well beyond his years. So, if your wife scowled at him it wouldn't dredge up the old fears that are dredged up in you. So many of the problems we face aren't really with who is right in front of us; but, who hurt us in the past.

Does this difference between Jesus and us make sense?Yep. Because Jesus processed it rightly, he did not get the pain we get. As for his mind being advanced, I do know he still had to grow in wisdom and truth. He learned as we do but his focus was way different. From a very early age he focused on God the Father and learning his will. This helped him greatly as he began to entrust himself to God early on. Because there was never a sin in him, he didn't have to deal with the inward death that sin brought, the inward wounds of lies, the inward festering of bitterness, etc. And a HUGE thing... Jesus treasure was always eternal. Therefore, no one could ever steal from him that which he valued. His treasure was laid up in heaven. So if eternity was what he valued and treasured, the enemy could not steel it! His expectations were set on the eternal and not the temporal. Therefore, no disappointments, etc.

Because Christ embraced his cross throughout his life, he avoided the wounds that we pick up through our fallen nature response we call sin. As I see his responses to certain situations, I too can learn to avoid sin and see what a healthy man is really like. Seeing the healthy response, allows me to understand if my response is healthy or not. Jesus is the standard. As I repent and respond more like him, my soul is healed! Just as God sent angels to minister to Christ, he will do so for us. He comforted Christ and he comforts us. The cross is powerful in all areas including our damaged emotions.

Thank you so much for your continued contributions.

Brother Mark
Apr 15th 2008, 09:47 AM
For sure, Jesus "felt" the whips, the thorns, the abuse and the scorn, the nails, the hot sun. Those are all physical things. In the Garden the night before, He knew all that was coming, and He "felt" the dread of it, the horror of what it would be. That is emotional.

But you are asking about something beyond that. When He looked at Judas and knew that he would betray Him, surely it was painful. After all, He had chosen Judas. Was Judas chosen for this specific purpose? We don't have that information in scripture. But we know that Jesus said "woe" comes to the one who betrays Him.

When Jesus looked at Peter and knew that Peter would deny Him 3 times, that must have hurt. But Jesus loved Peter, and prayed for Peter, that his faith would not fail. He also told him that it would happen, ahead of time so that Peter could have something to hold onto when he realized what he had done.

Good stuff! Peter is a great example!!! I could go on and on about him and Jesus interaction with one another. Jesus constantly was looking out for Peter and helping Peter. After the resurrection, he sent personal word to Peter. "Go tell my disciples AND Peter". Wow. He called Peter by name. I think when Jesus looked at Peter when Peter denied him, it was an awesome moment. Anyway, I do believe Jesus suffered emotional pain as was evidenced in the Garden. I also think, as you mentioned above, that Jesus was hurt by the responses of those around him.


Jesus poured Himself into the disciples/apostles for 3 years, experiencing frustration with their inability to "get it". We saw that several times in the recent study by Tanya on the book of Mark.

LOL! Yea, he did get frustrated. I remember when he said after the mount of transfiguration something along the lines of "how long will I put up with you" or something to that effect. He suffered their lack of faith often. But in their defense, they didn't have the Holy Spirit and Jesus was very patient. I have often wondered how Jesus handled not being understood for so long. I don't handle it well. He had a passion that he could not share with anyone else. Everyone around him was just not quite to the point he was at. (Understatement... I know, I know) Yet, still he poured himself into these folks. When we look at Jesus emotional makeup and how he responded emotionally to those around him, it is amazing the portrait we begin to see.


Right now we are seeing what Jesus did about that frustration. He prayed, He asked His Father to send the Holy Spirit to accomplish that which Jesus had not accomplished in the flesh. He received a promise from the Father. In Acts chapter 2, we see Jesus seated at the right hand of the Father, and what does He do? He takes that gift of the Holy Spirit and pours it out on His disciples. In doing this, He gives them the power to do what they could not do in themselves, even when Jesus was right there with them, or a few feet away from them, physically.

I love that! Thanks for sharing it.


Now the disciples had received the power. The same power that Jesus had when He walked on the earth. I think we will see in the book of Acts, that Peter did not always wield that power properly. He was still slow to "get it."

But he finally got it and wrote 1 and 2 Peter. It fascinates me how much different those books are from the life we see Peter living in the Gospels.


We are often like Peter. We don't quite get it, we don't know that we have that wonderful power. Or, even if we realize that we have it, we don't really know how to wield it. We think it is for our own benefit, but it is for the benefit of the Kingdom.

Right! God only shares the power with dead men and women. ;)


As TMeeks indicated, it is the problem of the Old Man. We need to learn how to walk in the New Man.

Great thread. Very thought-provoking.

There's lots here for me. I appreciate what your are writing. I am digging around for a reason. Learning as we go...

Brother Mark
Apr 15th 2008, 10:18 AM
OK, I am thinking about what Tmeeks posted above. I want to look at some of these things individually.



Hurt feelings always come from disappointment.
Most hurt feelings have their root in our wanting to be lifted up or accepted.
Some hurt feelings come from external disappointments
Some hurt feelings come from internal disappointments
The level of hurt depends on the level of investment we have in being a part of someone's life
The level of hurt depends on how closely reality matches our expectations
Those who hurt, hurt others
Hurt feelings are chemical responses
Hurt feelings are toxic to our bodies due to the chemicals.If I understand correctly, the chemical responses are the result of our internal decision and thinking mechanism. So if we think correctly and act correctly, the amount of chemicals released can be limited. With that said...

Hurt feelings are always the result of disappointment... That's interesting. I am thinking on this one and I can't think of a time when my feelings were hurt that I wasn't disappointed in something or someone or some action. So what's the biblical solution to this?... thinking further disappointments have their root in expectations. What does scripture say about disappointment and expectations? If I am expecting something for me, then I am treasuring something. Which leads to the second point...

Most hurt feelings have their root in our wanting to be lifted up or accepted. Ah, we treasure ourselves and other things. There are some biblical answers to dealing with hurt feelings. I am beginning to see them. There are some biblical answers in how to avoid excessive hurt feelings.

The level of hurt depends on the level of investment. I love this one. I think also, it depends on the "why" for the investment. Because the why plays into my expectations which can lead to disappointment.

So, how do we deal with disappointment? Well, we have to get our expectations in order. Here's what Paul said.

2 Cor 4:7-12

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the surpassing greatness of the power may be of God and not from ourselves; 8 we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; 10 always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 11 For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12 So death works in us, but life in you.
NASB

Though Paul was afflicted, the affliction did not crush his spirit. Though he was perplexed, this did not lead to despair. Though he was persecuted, he never felt forsaken. Though he was struck down and left for dead, he was not destroyed. The emotional response of Paul was amazing! He was plugged into something like Jesus was. In his ministry, he understood that when he laid down his life, it was life to other people. That which works death in us, works life in others. What am I getting at? Paul was embracing the cross and allowing his treasure to be eternal. He was stoned and left for dead, but his treasure was eternal so he wasn't destroyed! Because moth and rust cannot destroy eternal even if they can destroy temporal. He recognized that the flesh was going to be destroyed and crucified. He said "we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus sake, that the life of Christ may also be manifested in our mortal flesh" Woo-hoo! That's what I am looking for...

The "LIFE of Christ manifested in our mortal flesh". The immortal in the mortal. As I embrace the cross of Christ, then Christ life and his ability and comfort and emotions become present in me.

Paul went on to say something that clarifies this even more...

2 Cor 4:16-18

16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. 17 For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, 18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
NASB

He called these things that we suffer "momentary light affliction". Wow! When we look at what Paul went through, it is amazing that he called it "light" affliction. Why didn't he lose heart? Why didn't he get discouraged? Why didn't he take things personal? Because his inner man was being renewed day by day. The outer man was being abused. But the inner man was growing strong. What was the inner man seeing that the outer man would not be able to see? "the eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison"! I think I will shout. :lol::bounce:He goes on..."While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal".

HE WAS LOOKING AT THINGS NOT SEEN! HE WAS LOOKING AT THE ETERNAL! There is my answer. Where my treasure is, there will my heart be also. When I treasure the temporal, the temporal will hurt far more when it's disappointments come along. But if I treasure the eternal, then I will rejoice as I suffer in the temporal for the sake of the eternal. Then, like Jesus I can for the joy laid before me, endure the cross, despising the shame, but looking forward to the work that it will accomplish in me and in those around me.

I think I have a LOT of studying to do. I am reminded of Joseph and how he dealt with all his disappointments. We don't see him going through severe emotional pain because of what was happening to him. Though I am sure it is there, it wasn't the kind that leads to, as Paul wrote, being crushed in spirit or feeling abandoned, or losing heart, or feeling despair.

Surely Christ and his kingdom offer a solution to man's emotional needs and problems.

Brother Mark
Apr 15th 2008, 10:30 AM
As I think through this even more, I think too I would add another two reasons for hurt feelings...

lack of justice

In other words, when someone mistreats us, our heart wants justice. We know we are right. Of course, the disappointment comes because someone doesn't love us enough to treat us fairly, or they don't value us which was what Tmeeks was getting at in his list. But when dealing with lack of justice, we have to entrust ourself to the Father who judges rightly.


Another one...

Thinking we know the reason and motive of the other person.

Jesus prayed on the cross for his Father to forgive those that were crucifying him. He said "they don't know what they are doing". Oh, they knew they were crucifying Him. But in their mind, they were doing what was right! Many times, folks hurt us but to them it is justified because they think what they are doing is right. Sin is always deceitful. So if someone is sinning against us, they are deceived in some way and don't know what they are doing. Even if they know they are hurting us, they may think it the right thing to do. Yet, we take it personal when in fact, the problem is with the other persons way of thinking. If we recognize, that person might be deceived, we too can pray "Father forgive them, they don't know what they are doing". Even though it hurts, we can see that the other party's actions are not because of us as much as they are because of how the other person sees the world. We all tend to think our perspective is the right one rarely giving the other person grace to walk through their own issues.

Now this thing is beginning to get big... I think I need to start gathering notes. This is going to go well with the "watch and pray" thread. They are intertwined.

I am looking forward to more responses. There is so much here. I wonder how many examples we can look at in scripture and find proper responses and how folks dealt with it. Paul is a great example. Joseph. David concerning Saul. The list goes on and on and on.

TMeeks
Apr 15th 2008, 01:19 PM
OK, I am thinking about what Tmeeks posted above. I want to look at some of these things individually.

If I understand correctly, the chemical responses are the result of our internal decision and thinking mechanism. So if we think correctly and act correctly, the amount of chemicals released can be limited. With that said...

More precisely, the TYPE of chemicals gets changed. Fear thoughts release chemicals that result in stressful emotions and faith thoughts release chemicals that calm us. Right now, if you have a picture of someone you love, look at it. If a smile comes to your face that is because that thought instantly sent a good electrico/chemical misture throughout your whole body through the limbic system that created that smile. But, if we think of something sad, the corners of our mouth automatically go down. Again, this is an electro/chemical response that sent out an entirely different set of chemicals. We even droop a bit with sadness. So, you are right how we think determines how we act and thinking right produces chemicals that calm our lives and provide innumerable benefits.


Hurt feelings are always the result of disappointment... That's interesting. I am thinking on this one and I can't think of a time when my feelings were hurt that I wasn't disappointed in something or someone or some action. So what's the biblical solution to this?... thinking further disappointments have their root in expectations. What does scripture say about disappointment and expectations? If I am expecting something for me, then I am treasuring something. Which leads to the second point...

And, sometimes those expectations are unreal, or based on selfish desires.


Most hurt feelings have their root in our wanting to be lifted up or accepted. Ah, we treasure ourselves and other things. There are some biblical answers to dealing with hurt feelings. I am beginning to see them. There are some biblical answers in how to avoid excessive hurt feelings.

The more we focus on ourselves, and we do so even when it APPEARS we are focused on others, the more likely we will be devastated by the actions of others... and, dissapointment in ourselves. Jesus had reality based expectations on both himself and others.


The level of hurt depends on the level of investment. I love this one. I think also, it depends on the "why" for the investment. Because the why plays into my expectations which can lead to disappointment.

This past year the reality of this really sank into me as I and others had worked many years with an alcoholic with tremendous talent and thought he had finally begun to thrive, only to see him crash and burn. I don't know that I have ever been so disappointed and angry. I felt duped. Again, it goes back to self. I put so much effort... and I did everything I could... I, I, I... It wasn't until I learned to forgive and focus again on the fact that God still wanted him whole that the feelings of hurt and anger went away.


So, how do we deal with disappointment? Well, we have to get our expectations in order. Here's what Paul said.

2 Cor 4:7-12

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the surpassing greatness of the power may be of God and not from ourselves; 8 we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; 10 always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 11 For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12 So death works in us, but life in you.
NASB

Though Paul was afflicted, the affliction did not crush his spirit. Though he was perplexed, this did not lead to despair. Though he was persecuted, he never felt forsaken. Though he was struck down and left for dead, he was not destroyed. The emotional response of Paul was amazing! He was plugged into something like Jesus was. In his ministry, he understood that when he laid down his life, it was life to other people. That which works death in us, works life in others. What am I getting at? Paul was embracing the cross and allowing his treasure to be eternal. He was stoned and left for dead, but his treasure was eternal so he wasn't destroyed! Because moth and rust cannot destroy eternal even if they can destroy temporal. He recognized that the flesh was going to be destroyed and crucified. He said "we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus sake, that the life of Christ may also be manifested in our mortal flesh" Woo-hoo! That's what I am looking for...

The "LIFE of Christ manifested in our mortal flesh". The immortal in the mortal. As I embrace the cross of Christ, then Christ life and his ability and comfort and emotions become present in me.

Paul went on to say something that clarifies this even more...

2 Cor 4:16-18

16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. 17 For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, 18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
NASB

He called these things that we suffer "momentary light affliction". Wow! When we look at what Paul went through, it is amazing that he called it "light" affliction. Why didn't he lose heart? Why didn't he get discouraged? Why didn't he take things personal? Because his inner man was being renewed day by day. The outer man was being abused. But the inner man was growing strong. What was the inner man seeing that the outer man would not be able to see? "the eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison"! I think I will shout. :lol::bounce:He goes on..."While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal".

HE WAS LOOKING AT THINGS NOT SEEN! HE WAS LOOKING AT THE ETERNAL! There is my answer. Where my treasure is, there will my heart be also. When I treasure the temporal, the temporal will hurt far more when it's disappointments come along. But if I treasure the eternal, then I will rejoice as I suffer in the temporal for the sake of the eternal. Then, like Jesus I can for the joy laid before me, endure the cross, despising the shame, but looking forward to the work that it will accomplish in me and in those around me.

I think I have a LOT of studying to do. I am reminded of Joseph and how he dealt with all his disappointments. We don't see him going through severe emotional pain because of what was happening to him. Though I am sure it is there, it wasn't the kind that leads to, as Paul wrote, being crushed in spirit or feeling abandoned, or losing heart, or feeling despair.

Surely Christ and his kingdom offer a solution to man's emotional needs and problems.
One of the illustrations I've used when speaking on the topic of 'Perspective' is to ask the congregation to imagine that we had an string and we went around the perimeter of the room with the string over and over again until all the walls were covered in string. Then imagine taking out a fine-line pen and putting the smallest dot possible at some point on the string. The dot represents our lives and the string represents, as much as it can, eternity. Most people have really never grasped just how long eternity is. They honestly have no real concept. When they finally 'get it' then the perspective of 90 years against billions, upon billions, upon billions of years takes on an entirely new meaning.

But, as importantly, the perspective of 20 years vs. 90 years against those billions of years also takes on new meaning. How different, really, is 20 vs. 90 in the light of eternity? In the light of a lifetime, how different is 1 second from 30 seconds?

Kingsdaughter
Apr 15th 2008, 01:46 PM
Jesus also had the PEACE OF GOD! That peace that surpasses ALL understanding. That explains the many times in my life, after I became a believer, where my feelings SHOULD have been hurt, because of my childhood, but I wasn't hurt emotionally, that's the peace of God guarding my heart and mind. WHen everything it seemed was going wrong and people were 'letting me down' My brain should have been hittin the panick button sending a signal to my emotions saying, " remember those feelings you had when you were 8" But that didn't happen because the Peace of God surpassing ALL understanding.

Brother Mark
Apr 15th 2008, 01:51 PM
More precisely, the TYPE of chemicals gets changed. Fear thoughts release chemicals that result in stressful emotions and faith thoughts release chemicals that calm us. Right now, if you have a picture of someone you love, look at it. If a smile comes to your face that is because that thought instantly sent a good electrico/chemical misture throughout your whole body through the limbic system that created that smile. But, if we think of something sad, the corners of our mouth automatically go down. Again, this is an electro/chemical response that sent out an entirely different set of chemicals. We even droop a bit with sadness. So, you are right how we think determines how we act and thinking right produces chemicals that calm our lives and provide innumerable benefits.

Not surprising we are hard wired to walk in faith.


And, sometimes those expectations are unreal, or based on selfish desires.Sure. But even if the expectations are reasonable, if unmet, they can still lead to hurt feelings.


The more we focus on ourselves, and we do so even when it APPEARS we are focused on others, the more likely we will be devastated by the actions of others... and, dissapointment in ourselves. Jesus had reality based expectations on both himself and others.EXACTLY! He dealt with people right where they were at. Therefore, his emotions weren't up and down based on their lack of performance to his expectations.


This past year the reality of this really sank into me as I and others had worked many years with an alcoholic with tremendous talent and thought he had finally begun to thrive, only to see him crash and burn. I don't know that I have ever been so disappointed and angry. I felt duped. Again, it goes back to self. I put so much effort... and I did everything I could... I, I, I... It wasn't until I learned to forgive and focus again on the fact that God still wanted him whole that the feelings of hurt and anger went away.BINGO! If we are living "whatsoever you do, do as unto the Lord" then we have no expectations of responses from others. For our efforts are focused on doing as unto the Lord. So if someone doesn't receive, or thank, or acknowledge, the emotional pain is not so high because our reason for doing was unto God anyway.


One of the illustrations I've used when speaking on the topic of 'Perspective' is to ask the congregation to imagine that we had an string and we went around the perimeter of the room with the string over and over again until all the walls were covered in string. Then imagine taking out a fine-line pen and putting the smallest dot possible at some point on the string. The dot represents our lives and the string represents, as much as it can, eternity. Most people have really never grasped just how long eternity is. They honestly have no real concept. When they finally 'get it' then the perspective of 90 years against billions, upon billions, upon billions of years takes on an entirely new meaning.

But, as importantly, the perspective of 20 years vs. 90 years against those billions of years also takes on new meaning. How different, really, is 20 vs. 90 in the light of eternity? In the light of a lifetime, how different is 1 second from 30 seconds?
Right. And when we learn to live in the eternal, the temporal loses much of it's impact and ability to frighten us. But such a transformation takes the work of the Holy Spirit.

I am reminded over and over and over again... Jesus and his kingdom provide man with all the answers to his every problem.

Brother Mark
Apr 15th 2008, 01:53 PM
Jesus also had the PEACE OF GOD! That peace that surpasses ALL understanding. That explains the many times in my life, after I became a believer, where my feelings SHOULD have been hurt, because of my childhood, but I wasn't hurt emotionally, that's the peace of God guarding my heart and mind. WHen everything it seemed was going wrong and people were 'letting me down' My brain should have been hittin the panick button sending a signal to my emotions saying, " remember those feelings you had when you were 8" But that didn't happen because the Peace of God surpassing ALL understanding.

It is what enabled Jesus to rest during the storm. He was asleep because he had peace. When he rebuked the storm he said "Peace be still" and the weather calmed. The peace inside of him was so great, that it impacted the environment around him when he let it come out. For from the abundance of his heart he spoke. The peace in his heart came out of his mouth and calmed the seas.

This is what I want to learn to live in. Great example.

RoadWarrior
Apr 16th 2008, 01:29 AM
Some fresh thoughts for today on this subject:

Jesus' life on earth was a picture for us of perfection.

Saul/Paul's life on earth was a picture of a human coming close to walking in perfection.

When Jesus was on trial, He did not complain that no one stood with Him.

Paul said, 2 Ti 4:16-18
16 At my first defense no one stood with me, but all forsook me. May it not be charged against them.

17 But the Lord stood with me and strengthened me, so that the message might be preached fully through me, and that all the Gentiles might hear. Also I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. 18 And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen! NKJV

Paul's feelings may have been hurt. He didn't see it coming.

Jesus always knew what was in men's hearts and He was never taken by surprise.

We can expect our own journeys to be more like Paul's than like Jesus.

Paul had the example of Jesus' words on the cross, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." He could follow that by faith, even if his feelings were sorely tried.

Paul also said this:
2 Ti 4:14-15
14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm. May the Lord repay him according to his works. 15 You also must beware of him, for he has greatly resisted our words. NKJV

Which indicates he was carryinig a grudge. We see this in other places in Acts, that Paul was a man somewhat led by his feellings.

Jesus by contrast, said this:
Mt 16:6 Then Jesus said to them, "Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees." NKJV

He did not single out an individual to beware of, but warned against the false doctrines.

Paul saw the person as the enemy. Jesus saw the doctrine as the enemy.

Kingsdaughter
Apr 16th 2008, 03:10 PM
amen. the Lord spoke to my heart two yrs ago about hurt feelings and that it comes from my inability to forgive and show mercy because I feel that it is my right to be hurt. instead of entertaing the thought of what the person has said or done I must be quick to forgive.and to pray blessing over the offender. if I do...no hurt feelings...if I don't...hurt feelings.

Brother Mark
Apr 16th 2008, 03:12 PM
amen. the Lord spoke to my heart two yrs ago about hurt feelings and that it comes from my inability to forgive and show mercy because I feel that it is my right to be hurt. instead of entertaing the thought of what the person has said or done I must be quick to forgive.and to pray blessing over the offender. if I do...no hurt feelings...if I don't...hurt feelings.

Oh yea. God spoke something similar to me a couple of days ago. I wanted justice. I wrote about it in this forum. I called it "demanding justice". You might want to add something to it.

I told my pastor that if I focus on the wrong that is done, my feelings are hurt more. If I focus on the hurt feelings, my emotions concerning the wrong that is done inflate. But when I began to intercede for the one that hurt me, I begin to understand they too are in a fallen world and being filled with hurt and pain and deception. Then, I become compassionate for them. It is a process of learning to capture the thoughts as you said and not entertaining them. Great points.

Kingsdaughter
Apr 16th 2008, 04:24 PM
Oh yea. God spoke something similar to me a couple of days ago. I wanted justice. I wrote about it in this forum. I called it "demanding justice". You might want to add something to it.

I told my pastor that if I focus on the wrong that is done, my feelings are hurt more. If I focus on the hurt feelings, my emotions concerning the wrong that is done inflate. But when I began to intercede for the one that hurt me, I begin to understand they too are in a fallen world and being filled with hurt and pain and deception. Then, I become compassionate for them. It is a process of learning to capture the thoughts as you said and not entertaining them. Great points.

Yay!!!! You got it! I knew where you were going in your op but I didn't want to push you. The Lord showed you Himself. i'll check out your other thread when my computer is up, I am using my palm phone right now and it is soooooo slooooow.

RoadWarrior
Apr 16th 2008, 04:30 PM
Are we not all working through our own wounds and sins? We get wounded, and we sin in response to that, that wounds someone else, and it is a domino effect that has been happening in the world since Eve and the fruit and the serpent and Adam. The only thing that stops it is forgiveness.

Not confrontation. Not standing up for your rights. Not self-defense. Forgiveness.

Jesus modeled it for us.

We might need to confront, but forgiveness needs to be present in the confrontation. We do need to set boundaries, but compassion needs to be present in the boundary. We might need to defend ourselves and those who depend on us, but it needs to not go past defense into aggression and vengeance.

May the Lord help us to see!

Brother Mark
Apr 16th 2008, 04:31 PM
Yay!!!! You got it! I knew where you were going in your op but I didn't want to push you. The Lord showed you Himself. i'll check out your other thread when my computer is up, I am using my palm phone right now and it is soooooo slooooow.

LOL! I am actually going to preach on it tonight. Should be fun. Sometimes, it takes me a while. And as you say, it is better when the Lord shows us. He can show us through other people but if he doesn't speak it to us, then we won't get it.

Kingsdaughter
Apr 17th 2008, 12:16 AM
LOL! I am actually going to preach on it tonight. Should be fun. Sometimes, it takes me a while. And as you say, it is better when the Lord shows us. He can show us through other people but if he doesn't speak it to us, then we won't get it.

Oh that's great! May the Holy Spirit speak through you and may the Lord open the hearts of those who are listening that they may hear and understand. In Jesus Name. Amen.

TMeeks
Apr 17th 2008, 03:28 AM
LOL! I am actually going to preach on it tonight. Should be fun. Sometimes, it takes me a while. And as you say, it is better when the Lord shows us. He can show us through other people but if he doesn't speak it to us, then we won't get it.
We'll be waiting to hear how it went. :wave:

Brother Mark
Apr 17th 2008, 04:24 AM
Are we not all working through our own wounds and sins? We get wounded, and we sin in response to that, that wounds someone else, and it is a domino effect that has been happening in the world since Eve and the fruit and the serpent and Adam. The only thing that stops it is forgiveness.

Not confrontation. Not standing up for your rights. Not self-defense. Forgiveness.

Jesus modeled it for us.

We might need to confront, but forgiveness needs to be present in the confrontation. We do need to set boundaries, but compassion needs to be present in the boundary. We might need to defend ourselves and those who depend on us, but it needs to not go past defense into aggression and vengeance.

May the Lord help us to see!

I missed this earlier... AMEN! Jesus is our example. He refused to judge. He laid down his life. He treasured God and the eternal. He came not to condemn but to forgive and to save.

Brother Mark
Apr 17th 2008, 04:25 AM
We'll be waiting to hear how it went. :wave:

Went great. I need to write it up and post it here. As you know, one can never share the full amount of revelation God gives in a sermon. Just too much. Shoot, I can't share it here either.

Oh, I used some of your stuff on the cause of hurt feelings too. Then I went from there on how to deal with it. I need to start a thread that combines this thread, with the judgment thread and the watching thread. Those are all about the same exact thing that God is doing in my life.

Thanks for all the encouragement.

TMeeks
Apr 17th 2008, 04:02 PM
Went great. I need to write it up and post it here. As you know, one can never share the full amount of revelation God gives in a sermon. Just too much. Shoot, I can't share it here either.

Oh, I used some of your stuff on the cause of hurt feelings too. Then I went from there on how to deal with it. I need to start a thread that combines this thread, with the judgment thread and the watching thread. Those are all about the same exact thing that God is doing in my life.

Thanks for all the encouragement.
I know exactly what you mean! :)

The interplay between the speaker and the congregation just brings something special to the moment that results in some seemingly spontaneous insights in just the right places.

That's wonderful to hear. :thumbsup: