PDA

View Full Version : Illegal immigration



Warrior4God
Apr 16th 2008, 02:51 AM
First off, I just want to make it clear that I have no particular dislike for those of Hispanic or Latino origin. To me, people are just people and no ethnic group is any better or any worse than any other ethnic group.

With that said, I would like to know what is the proper Christian attitude to have about Mexicans illegally crossing the border into the United States? Illegals fraudulently obtaining social security cards? Getting driver's licenses? Being allowed to vote? Coming into the U.S. and forming gangs and murdering, stealing, raping, and selling drugs?

I know how I feel as an American citizen. I'm enraged and disgusted! Our government is pathetic for not securing our borders. Besides the illegal immigration problem, open borders are a perfect way to smuggle in terrorists.

To be honest, I understand why they come here. They are looking for a better standard of life. I totally get that and I don't blame them for wanting to come here.

However, if you want to come here, I feel you need to PLAY BY THE RULES AND COME HERE LEGALLY! Anybody else feel the same way I do? http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_28.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZS)

SammeyDW
Apr 16th 2008, 04:58 AM
I do,
And if you do come here LEARN OUR LANGUAGE!!!!!!
I am tired of having to learn other languages just because someone
I deal with on a daily bases can't be bothered to learn the USA language,
by the way it's English if anyone has forgotten.

Revinius
Apr 16th 2008, 08:02 AM
Give to Caesar what is Caesar's mate and to God what is God's.

Or in other words, obey the human law unless it conflicts with God's law. If the human law states that people shouldnt que jump then you, under Gods authority, should obey that law.

Roelof
Apr 16th 2008, 08:43 AM
We in South Africa have the same problems with illegal immigrants from the very poor neighbour Zimbabwe.

Brother Mark
Apr 16th 2008, 12:34 PM
Prov 6:30-31
30 Men do not despise a thief if he steals
To satisfy himself when he is hungry;
31 But when he is found, he must repay sevenfold;
He must give all the substance of his house.
NASB

In this verse we see both compassion and punishment. No one despises such a man. But when he is found out, he loses all. I think we should be pushing for easier immigration laws so that we can bring folks in to work and that they can have some form of income to send back home. Anyone that has ever seen 8 year old kids begging in the streets of a latin american country knows how hopeless many in Latin America can be.

JenniferBerry
Apr 16th 2008, 02:38 PM
With that said, I would like to know what is the proper Christian attitude to have about Mexicans illegally crossing the border into the United States?

How Would Jesus treat them? :)

HisLeast
Apr 16th 2008, 03:55 PM
How Would Jesus treat them? :)

Jesus would probably take care of their need and tell them "Go, and sin no more!". What was that verse about not coming to change the law again? Nobody said we have to be bitter and mean spirited about enforcing the law, but the law CAN be enforced.

HisLeast
Apr 16th 2008, 04:02 PM
Prov 6:30-31
30 Men do not despise a thief if he steals
To satisfy himself when he is hungry;
31 But when he is found, he must repay sevenfold;
He must give all the substance of his house.
NASB

In this verse we see both compassion and punishment. No one despises such a man. But when he is found out, he loses all. I think we should be pushing for easier immigration laws so that we can bring folks in to work and that they can have some form of income to send back home. Anyone that has ever seen 8 year old kids begging in the streets of a latin american country knows how hopeless many in Latin America can be.

Its very sad. Even sadder that Felipe Calderón (Mexico's president) is one of the wealthiest men in the world. Sad that so many countries in Latin America are caught in unending military coups to sieze power. And yet there are beacons of hope there (Costa Rica for example).

Its hard to look at the fate of young children, but immigrating them BECAUSE of their poverty is impractical. After all... there's 400,000,000 more of them in China... shall they come over as well?

And what of the American laborer who's lost his job because unscrupulous contractors are hiring illegal labor at pennies on the dollar? There's a gentleman on THIS very forum who can tell you how frustrating that is. If we're going to have a victim competition, shouldn't we be helping our own countrymen first?

Now, it may shock some that I'm not even American when I write this. I'm a Canadian, living and working in the US. Every hour of that labor has been by the book at great cost to myself. I bust my hump to do it right and its insulting that others are excused from the same painstaking process because they've got it rough.

Brother Mark
Apr 16th 2008, 04:15 PM
Its very sad. Even sadder that Felipe Calderón (Mexico's president) is one of the wealthiest men in the world. Sad that so many countries in Latin America are caught in unending military coups to sieze power. And yet there are beacons of hope there (Costa Rica for example).

Its hard to look at the fate of young children, but immigrating them BECAUSE of their poverty is impractical. After all... there's 400,000,000 more of them in China... shall they come over as well?

To be honest, China isn't sending that many folks over here. So, IMO, it's a straw man because it isn't happening. But we should do what we can do. I am sure there are many folks that have been robbed and are laying in the streets. But who do we help? The ones that cross our paths just like the good samaritan did. The ones in the next country that we don't come in contact with are beyond our reach. Let us help those that God has caused to cross our path.


And what of the American laborer who's lost his job because unscrupulous contractors are hiring illegal labor at pennies on the dollar? There's a gentleman on THIS very forum who can tell you how frustrating that is. If we're going to have a victim competition, shouldn't we be helping our own countrymen first?This is definitely a straw man. When unemployment is 4%, finding a job is not as difficult as it has been. The whole reason these folks are coming here is that sheer number of jobs available. When unemployment gets up to 7% to 10% or more again, the number coming here will slow to a trickle. Illegal labor isn't pennies on the dollar. Most folks that hire illegal labor do so because that is all that's available. There are many jobs that remain unfilled in some parts of the country.


Now, it may shock some that I'm not even American when I write this. I'm a Canadian, living and working in the US. Every hour of that labor has been by the book at great cost to myself. I bust my hump to do it right and its insulting that others are excused from the same painstaking process because they've got it rough.This is a valid point. One problem I had with the legislation is that it gave citizenship to those who broke the law before it gave citizenship to those that did it right. I know folks in Latin America that would love to immigrate to this country and have tried to do so. But they won't come here illegally. Yet, we are going to reward those that have broken the law and not those that have honored it. I would prefer to put a system in place that would bring folks over here legally and reward them for doing it right while putting the folks at the bottom that broke the law. On the other hand, I certainly think there should be room for compassion. The poverty in Latin America is amazing when compared to here. Even our poorest of the poor are better off than the poor in some Latin American countries.

HisLeast
Apr 16th 2008, 04:29 PM
To be honest, China isn't sending that many folks over here. So, IMO, it's a straw man because it isn't happening. But we should do what we can do. I am sure there are many folks that have been robbed and are laying in the streets. But who do we help? The ones that cross our paths just like the good samaritan did. The ones in the next country that we don't come in contact with are beyond our reach. Let us help those that God has caused to cross our path.

Well you got me on the China thing... so yeah that may be a straw-man. I really meant it to be an example of how far the "we need to help them out of poverty" thinking can go. In my mind, their own country can be doing plenty (PLENTY) to improve their situation, but they aren't.


This is definitely a straw man. When unemployment is 4%, finding a job is not as difficult as it has been. The whole reason these folks are coming here is that sheer number of jobs available. When unemployment gets up to 7% to 10% or more again, the number coming here will slow to a trickle. Illegal labor isn't pennies on the dollar. Most folks that hire illegal labor do so because that is all that's available. There are many jobs that remain unfilled in some parts of the country.

I do not concur. And maybe The1Bill or FolowMeInfantry can come and speak from personal experience here about how real job loss is due to illegal workers. 4% unemployment doesn't even count those whos benefits have run out, and the Bush administration has gone through great lengths to alter how that metric is calculated.


I know folks in Latin America that would love to immigrate to this country and have tried to do so. But they won't come here illegally.

I pray the Lord blesses those people for their integrity. The system probably could use some reform. If industries are lacking for labor, then its up to domestic policy to try to get domestic workers to those industries, and failing that, its up to foriegn policy to bring the workers in. I do not agree that illegal labor is taking "jobs american's don't want". I believe its more a case of "taking those jobs at much lower cost".

Brother Mark
Apr 16th 2008, 04:38 PM
Well you got me on the China thing... so yeah that may be a straw-man. I really meant it to be an example of how far the "we need to help them out of poverty" thinking can go. In my mind, their own country can be doing plenty (PLENTY) to improve their situation, but they aren't.

Oh no doubt about that! But, as in the story of the good Samaritan, the man's countrymen WOULDN'T help him. Though the priest and the levite should have done it, that fact didn't keep the Samaritan from helping.


I do not concur. And maybe The1Bill or FolowMeInfantry can come and speak from personal experience here about how real job loss is due to illegal workers. 4% unemployment doesn't even count those whos benefits have run out, and the Bush administration has gone through great lengths to alter how that metric is calculated.

I am not saying it never happens. What I am saying is that it is way exaggerated. In Florida, you could wait a long while to get a house built not too long ago because workers were scarce. Mostly in the construction industry, there were folks of Latin American descent. While I am not sure, I do assume that many were most likely illegal. Now many are out of work. But at the height of the boom, workers were few and far between. The waiting list for houses was long.


I pray the Lord blesses those people for their integrity. The system probably could use some reform. If industries are lacking for labor, then its up to domestic policy to try to get domestic workers to those industries, and failing that, its up to foriegn policy to bring the workers in.

Amen to that!


I do not agree that illegal labor is taking "jobs american's don't want". I believe its more a case of "taking those jobs at much lower cost".


That depends on where you live most likely. When was the last time you knew a citizen that was a migrant farmer? I don't know too many people that are willing to move around from location to location to help farmers harvest their land for seasonal earnings. As a kid, we did some of that work but no adult would do it. Now, many teens won't do it so the immigrant does.

I don't doubt that some citizens have lost jobs and immigrants have gained them. But there are several industries where the domestic supply of workers is not enough. Since you are here working, your area of work is likely one of them. Many of those kinds of jobs are high tech. On the other hand, think of this... there are what 10 to 20 million illegal immigrants in this country? How many jobs do they have? If they were all gone, do you think we could fill them all with domestic workers?

I know in Florida we could not find enough workers just 2 to 3 years ago. Now, we have more than we can handle. (Say Florida because I have often worked there and my folks live there.)

JenniferBerry
Apr 16th 2008, 06:16 PM
Christians are not required to ask them for there green card all we are required to do is ask "Do you know Jesus Christ? Do you need help I see your hungry?" If you work for the immigration service then ask them for the green card. We are not the police we are Christians.

ProjectPeter
Apr 16th 2008, 06:24 PM
Its very sad. Even sadder that Felipe Calderón (Mexico's president) is one of the wealthiest men in the world. Sad that so many countries in Latin America are caught in unending military coups to sieze power. And yet there are beacons of hope there (Costa Rica for example).

Its hard to look at the fate of young children, but immigrating them BECAUSE of their poverty is impractical. After all... there's 400,000,000 more of them in China... shall they come over as well?

And what of the American laborer who's lost his job because unscrupulous contractors are hiring illegal labor at pennies on the dollar? There's a gentleman on THIS very forum who can tell you how frustrating that is. If we're going to have a victim competition, shouldn't we be helping our own countrymen first?

Now, it may shock some that I'm not even American when I write this. I'm a Canadian, living and working in the US. Every hour of that labor has been by the book at great cost to myself. I bust my hump to do it right and its insulting that others are excused from the same painstaking process because they've got it rough.
Oh come on now... you do understand the difference between Mexico which is right next door separated by a river that is ankle deep and china which is separated by a monster ocean... right? Honestly... can't even believe you are trying to go there with that sort of point.

Rest assured... there are illigal folk here from China too. But few compared because the means it takes to get here. And even still... COME ON IN. I can witness to them TIMES EASIER here than I'll ever be able to do in China. We are Christian folk right? Most important to us... even over jobs in this country should be the souls of every man and who cares what their nationality is and who cares how they come across our path... be it through coming here legal or illegal.

Most of these folks aren't any more saved than the River or Ocean they crossed is saved. Why do we expect they are going to act like it?

HisLeast
Apr 16th 2008, 06:49 PM
Oh come on now... you do understand the difference between Mexico which is right next door separated by a river that is ankle deep and china which is separated by a monster ocean... right? Honestly... can't even believe you are trying to go there with that sort of point.

I won't validate your patronizing tone with a well prepared and reasoned answer.

menJesus
Apr 16th 2008, 07:17 PM
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42216

I think we should PRAY for them. How hard it must be for them to leave their family and friends, their homes, their COUNTRY, just to be able to make enough money to feed themselves and their families.

And Jesus, no doubt, would have had COMPASSION on them... as a matter of fact, isn`t there specific Scripture regarding the care of refugees?

ProjectPeter
Apr 16th 2008, 07:31 PM
I won't validate your patronizing tone with a well prepared and reasoned answer.
Sure you won't... never mind it wasn't patronizing but was certainly a shock. You do realize there is a huge difference.... right? Tryin to compare Mexican immagrants to Chinese ones is like comparing cucumbers and peanuts. That is just common sense I would hope.

ProjectPeter
Apr 16th 2008, 07:33 PM
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42216

I think we should PRAY for them. How hard it must be for them to leave their family and friends, their homes, their COUNTRY, just to be able to make enough money to feed themselves and their families.

And Jesus, no doubt, would have had COMPASSION on them... as a matter of fact, isn`t there specific Scripture regarding the care of refugees?
That's exactly right... ABSOLTULY right actually. Let me tell you this. If my family couldn't survive on the silly little money one made in the US and Mexico was paying good money... my behind would be wading across that river as well. Any man tha dt wouldn't do that for there family... isn't much a man. Has nothing to do with pride. But all to do with TAKING CARE of one's family. No matter the cost.

torazon
Apr 16th 2008, 08:57 PM
I am all for LEGAL Immigration. My heart goes out to the poor folks just trying to find a better life that turn to trying to illegally enter another country. However I am in full support of not allowing ANYONE entrance unless they go through the proper procedures. We have to use common sense and protect ourselves from the criminal element, we have enough of our own home grown nuts as it is. And I agree they need to learn the common language of the country as part of their citizenship process.

ProjectPeter
Apr 16th 2008, 09:05 PM
I am all for LEGAL Immigration. My heart goes out to the poor folks just trying to find a better life that turn to trying to illegally enter another country. However I am in full support of not allowing ANYONE entrance unless they go through the proper procedures. We have to use common sense and protect ourselves from the criminal element, we have enough of our own home grown nuts as it is. And I agree they need to learn the common language of the country as part of their citizenship process.
So am I contrary to what some might believe. But then what do we do with those already hear? There lies the problem.

mikebr
Apr 16th 2008, 09:29 PM
That's exactly right... ABSOLTULY right actually. Let me tell you this. If my family couldn't survive on the silly little money one made in the US and Mexico was paying good money... my behind would be wading across that river as well. Any man tha dt wouldn't do that for there family... isn't much a man. Has nothing to do with pride. But all to do with TAKING CARE of one's family. No matter the cost.

YES!!:kiss:

From my limited contact with them, the ones who work, work hard and many send money back to their families. I would do it at all costs and not give a rip what folks thought about me. BTW the hispanics are some of my favorite students at school. They are all appreciative of their opportunities here. Might be able to teach us a little.

torazon
Apr 16th 2008, 11:24 PM
So am I contrary to what some might believe. But then what do we do with those already here? There lies the problem.

That my brother is the million dollar question on this issue in the USA. Our approach needs to realistic in resolving this. I am pretty sure if we simply ACTIVELY enforced the laws already on the books that could be a good start. However given the number of illegals already here, we really do not have the resources to pursue this aggressively.

Prior to God getting a hold of me I was very hard nosed on this issue. Round them up and ship them back was how I viewed it. On one hand I love my country and need to think of our existing citizens. On the other hand and most importantly what would God want me to do? I do NOT know the ultimate answer to this question. I do know what the Bible says about helping the poor.

This issue quite frankly drives me nuts as a Christian. It's obviously a very tough situation with no easy resolution in sight.

menJesus
Apr 17th 2008, 08:06 AM
I have always heard that there is wealth in Mexico, so my question is this: why aren`t companies being built, and jobs created, to allow the people to live and work in their own country?

Why haven`t the wealthy Americans gone down there and done this? It makes no sense to me, to see the wealthy sit on their money, while the people of the country of Mexico become so poor that they must go to another country in order to work and make enough money to stay alive.

Brother Mark
Apr 17th 2008, 12:02 PM
I have always heard that there is wealth in Mexico, so my question is this: why aren`t companies being built, and jobs created, to allow the people to live and work in their own country?

One of the richest men in the world lives in Mexico. Jobs are being created but because of their government, their history, etc. things have not progressed as fast as they have here. Also, keep in mind that the peasant farmer is still a reality in Mexico. NAFTA probably helps them some as factories are built in Mexico to make products to sell here. But they have a long way to go.


Why haven`t the wealthy Americans gone down there and done this? It makes no sense to me, to see the wealthy sit on their money, while the people of the country of Mexico become so poor that they must go to another country in order to work and make enough money to stay alive.

Americans are building factories in Mexico. It's one reason unions here hate NAFTA so bad. But problems aren't fixed overnight. And even though jobs are being created in Mexico, people can come here and get rich. Most Americans have NO IDEA how easy we have it when it comes to jobs and wealth. One can become a millionaire in the US on a $25,000 a year income. A tithe to the stock market over 40 years will get you there. But in Mexico, one can work and still be very, very poor. Even when folks come here, they will live 10 to a house so they can save money to send back home. It is amazing to go into an immigrants house and see only a few beds and a TV or two. No other furniture! They work, eat and sleep. They can live very cheaply compared to the average Joe.

By and large, Mexico is far richer than than other Latin American countries. Many folks that cross the boarder are not Mexican even if they are Latin. In my opinion, one of the largest issues facing Latin America is good government. We often complain about our government when we should be thanking God for it. The cronyism and illegal activity that goes on in government in some south American countries is repulsive. If the folks had a stable government to work under that was honest, it would make a difference.

menJesus
Apr 17th 2008, 11:03 PM
How sad that all is! It makes Mexico almost sound like a third-world country...

Clavicula_Nox
Apr 18th 2008, 02:26 AM
How sad that all is! It makes Mexico almost sound like a third-world country...

Well, 3rd-world country is a Cold War throw-back that really doesn't apply anymore. Though, going on how 3rd-world is used in common speak, yes Mexico is a 3rd-world country.

diffangle
Apr 18th 2008, 03:19 AM
Christians are not required to ask them for there green card all we are required to do is ask "Do you know Jesus Christ? Do you need help I see your hungry?" If you work for the immigration service then ask them for the green card. We are not the police we are Christians.


Oh come on now... you do understand the difference between Mexico which is right next door separated by a river that is ankle deep and china which is separated by a monster ocean... right? Honestly... can't even believe you are trying to go there with that sort of point.

Rest assured... there are illigal folk here from China too. But few compared because the means it takes to get here. And even still... COME ON IN. I can witness to them TIMES EASIER here than I'll ever be able to do in China. We are Christian folk right? Most important to us... even over jobs in this country should be the souls of every man and who cares what their nationality is and who cares how they come across our path... be it through coming here legal or illegal.

Most of these folks aren't any more saved than the River or Ocean they crossed is saved. Why do we expect they are going to act like it?
How do we Christians reconcile Romans 13? According to our law of the land... if we knowingly harbor a criminal then we too are breaking our laws.

Clavicula_Nox
Apr 18th 2008, 03:47 AM
my behind would be wading across that river as well. Any man tha dt wouldn't do that for there family... isn't much a man. Has nothing to do with pride. But all to do with TAKING CARE of one's family. No matter the cost.

I wasn't aware we had the authority to violate the law when we felt like it. I suppose that it would be okay to rob a bakery, so long as you're taking care of your family, right? Saying that, then it's okay to do a lot of things, so long as you're taking care of your family and all.

menJesus
Apr 18th 2008, 12:32 PM
Well, 3rd-world country is a Cold War throw-back that really doesn't apply anymore. Though, going on how 3rd-world is used in common speak, yes Mexico is a 3rd-world country.

Thanks for the correction. And yes, I was using the term in today`s common-speak, as you call it... but you knew that... ;)

menJesus
Apr 18th 2008, 12:47 PM
These are the verses I was looking for:

Exodus 22:21 (King James Version) 21Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Leviticus 19:34 (King James Version) 34But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Now that the old covenant is finished, are we not to welcome strangers anymore?

And, work situations aside, don`t many immigrants come here for the freedom to worship God?

Brother Mark
Apr 18th 2008, 12:53 PM
These are the verses I was looking for:

Exodus 22:21 (King James Version) 21Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Leviticus 19:34 (King James Version) 34But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Now that the old covenant is finished, are we not to welcome strangers anymore?

And, work situations aside, don`t many immigrants come here for the freedom to worship God?

Those are great verses MJ. Thanks for sharing them.

menJesus
Apr 18th 2008, 12:59 PM
You are welcome, Brother Mark. Since they are OT, are they applicable today? Thanks.

Clavicula_Nox
Apr 18th 2008, 01:05 PM
Thanks for the correction. And yes, I was using the term in today`s common-speak, as you call it... but you knew that... ;)

Sorry, it looks like I was being..uh..the guy who corrects everyone, but I wasn't trying to. :blush:


Now that the old covenant is finished, are we not to welcome strangers anymore?

And, work situations aside, don`t many immigrants come here for the freedom to worship God?

We do welcome strangers, I would say the United States of America welcomes quite a bit more strangers than most countries. We also have a legal process to welcome strangers.

I couldn't say why people immigrate here, part of my family came here to escape Nazis, another part ran out of potatoes, and still another part ran out of places to park their longships.

Brother Mark
Apr 18th 2008, 01:07 PM
You are welcome, Brother Mark. Since they are OT, are they applicable today? Thanks.

Yes. The spirit of the Law never goes away. Think of it in this way too...

We were spiritually in Egypt at one time, lost and undone without God. So when an unbeliever, who is still spiritually in Egypt, mistreats us, we are to remember that they are currently in bondage to their sin just as we use to be and that they do not know what they are doing.

However, those verses of kindness you found still apply today. Compare them with 1 Cor 13 and see how well they fit. Or the story of the good Samaritan. Or the story where Jesus said "I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was naked and you clothed me." Or to what Paul said "Remember the poor".

Those scriptures most definitely apply my sister. I think that is why the Lord led you to them.

Let us also remember that as Americans, we were all immigrants at one time as well. Just as the Jew in Jesus time was not born in Egypt, yet he was still bound by those verses because his family was at one time, in bondage in Egypt. Somewhere down the line, most of us had ancestors that came here against the wishes of those that were already here.

Having said all that, there is nothing wrong with the US enforcing the immigration laws. But as believers, let us be sympathetic to and help the immigrant.

diffangle
Apr 18th 2008, 01:20 PM
These are the verses I was looking for:

Exodus 22:21 (King James Version) 21Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Leviticus 19:34 (King James Version) 34But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Now that the old covenant is finished, are we not to welcome strangers anymore?

And, work situations aside, don`t many immigrants come here for the freedom to worship God?
We're not talking about immigrants in this thread, we're talking about illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants are breaking our laws in this country by by-passing the system... it's not fair to all those who have gone the legal route and it's illegal. Again, how do we reconcile Romand 13 where we're told to obey our government... if we harbor/befriend/shelter/give employment to an illegal immigrant, according to our law/government we're are aiding and abetting a criminal, we too break the law.

Warrior4God
Apr 18th 2008, 01:36 PM
We're not talking about immigrants in this thread, we're talking about illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants are breaking our laws in this country by by-passing the system... it's not fair to all those who have gone the legal route and it's illegal. Again, how do we reconcile Romand 13 where we're told to obey our government... if we harbor/befriend/shelter/give employment to an illegal immigrant, according to our law/government we're are aiding and abetting a criminal, we too break the law.

I totally agree with your sentiments here. I am all for wanting to be helpful and kind to those who escape misery to come to the U.S. to improve their lives. I just think they should do it legally. And I think our government should get off it's butt and do it's job in securing the borders. I hold no hatred in my heart for those who come here illegally, but I would be lying if I said I felt no frustration about the situation.

menJesus
Apr 18th 2008, 01:43 PM
Clavicula Nox, no need to apologize... if I could put on paper what I have in my head, I`d have it made, for sure... I try, though:::banging head::: ;)

diffangle, sorry, my posts definitely did not specify ILLEGAL immigrants. And since I was not specifying ILLEGAL immigrants, but attempting to make a point about what the Bible says about how we as christians are to treat immigrants, period, legal or ILLEGAL, and apparently failing at it, I will not post in this ILLEGAL immigrant thread anymore... sorry, sorry, sorry. I really am sorry if I annoyed you... :(

diffangle
Apr 18th 2008, 01:56 PM
Clavicula Nox, no need to apologize... if I could put on paper what I have in my head, I`d have it made, for sure... I try, though:::banging head::: ;)

diffangle, sorry, my posts definitely did not specify ILLEGAL immigrants. And since I was not specifying ILLEGAL immigrants, but attempting to make a point about what the Bible says about how we as christians are to treat immigrants, period, legal or ILLEGAL, and apparently failing at it, I will not post in this ILLEGAL immigrant thread anymore... sorry, sorry, sorry. I really am sorry if I annoyed you... :(
Doh, oh no, you haven't annoyed me at all, sorry if it seemed like I was. I only bolded the word illegal to show the difference between the two, please don't drop out of the conversation b/c you think I'm annoyed, trust me I'm not anoyed in the least. :kiss:

As far as the verses you quoted, they are good verses and they still stand(imo those verses aren't talking about criminals) but in light of Romans 13, I do question just how involved we should be with criminals, ya know? :hmm:

Brother Mark
Apr 18th 2008, 02:01 PM
We're not talking about immigrants in this thread, we're talking about illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants are breaking our laws in this country by by-passing the system... it's not fair to all those who have gone the legal route and it's illegal. Again, how do we reconcile Romand 13 where we're told to obey our government... if we harbor/befriend/shelter/give employment to an illegal immigrant, according to our law/government we're are aiding and abetting a criminal, we too break the law.

Mercy can only be shown when law is broken. Government is responsible for keeping the law. But we cannot, nor should we, turn our heads to suffering because someone has broken the law. Let the government enforce the law. Let us submit to the government. But let us also show compassion and caring.

Thank God that He is not fair.

diffangle
Apr 18th 2008, 02:10 PM
Mercy can only be shown when law is broken. Government is responsible for keeping the law. But we cannot, nor should we, turn our heads to suffering because someone has broken the law. Let the government enforce the law. Let us submit to the government. But let us also show compassion and caring.

Thank God that He is not fair.
So it's okay to aid and abet criminals even though it's illegal for us to aid and abet criminals?

Brother Mark
Apr 18th 2008, 02:21 PM
So it's okay to aid and abet criminals even though it's illegal for us to aid and abet criminals?

Illegal immigration has not been criminalized. While it is against the law, it is not a misdemeanor nor is it a felony. It ranks somewhere around a traffic ticket. Will you withhold compassion and mercy to a victim in a car wreck because they were speeding?

Clavicula_Nox
Apr 18th 2008, 03:57 PM
So we have the authority to obey the laws we want, and disobey the laws we want. This is quite helpful to know.

Brother Mark
Apr 18th 2008, 04:40 PM
So we have the authority to obey the laws we want, and disobey the laws we want. This is quite helpful to know.

You and I both know we are bound by the laws of the land. However, those laws do not tell me I cannot be kind to the immigrant. If they did, they would go against God's law to which I am ultimately bound. We are always to submit to the authority God places over us so long as it does not require us to sin.

For clarification...

1 John 3:16-18
16 We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has the world's goods, and beholds his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
NASB

How can the love of God reside in me, and allow me to ignore a brother in need of this worlds goods? It cannot! The love of God will supply the brother in need with that which he needs.

Clavicula_Nox
Apr 18th 2008, 05:39 PM
The United States cannot feed every hungry person, and we are acting as if our country completely ignores others when it is simply not the case. The US is an extremely generous country, and I think people abuse it.

Brother Mark
Apr 18th 2008, 05:44 PM
The United States cannot feed every hungry person, and we are acting as if our country completely ignores others when it is simply not the case. The US is an extremely generous country, and I think people abuse it.

Generosity is almost always abused. God told us not to "fall short of the grace given to you". He still gave it, even though it is abused. He still sent his Son to die, even though he knew most would reject and abuse his Gift.

Having said that, it is not the responsibility of the US government to feed the world. But as believers, we are commanded to be kind and generous. Government will enforce the law. It is not wrong nor illegal to show kindness to an illegal immigrant.

Clavicula_Nox
Apr 18th 2008, 06:46 PM
It's not wrong to show kindness to escaped convicts either.

Brother Mark
Apr 18th 2008, 06:51 PM
It's not wrong to show kindness to escaped convicts either.

Yet, illegal immigrants aren't convicts. They are not felons nor are they criminals. The law they are breaking is like breaking the speed limit. Congress has not yet criminalized illegal immigration even if some wish it were so.

Clavicula_Nox
Apr 18th 2008, 08:16 PM
But allowing people to trample apart the law sets a precedent. I don't think anyone here is talking about not showing kindness, but I know that at least I am talking about going through the right way to get to it. It's one thing to come across someone bleeding on the road, it's another to know that someone is doing something wrong and supporting that wrong behaviour.

*edit*

I'd also like to point out that just by entering the country illegally, they are convicts. It may be considered a low crime, but it has a big impact. Someone breaking the speed limit can cause any number of fatal events, do we suddenly tell police officers to stop writing speeding tickets because it's such a minor thing on the surface?

Brother Mark
Apr 18th 2008, 10:48 PM
But allowing people to trample apart the law sets a precedent. I don't think anyone here is talking about not showing kindness, but I know that at least I am talking about going through the right way to get to it. It's one thing to come across someone bleeding on the road, it's another to know that someone is doing something wrong and supporting that wrong behaviour.

*edit*

I'd also like to point out that just by entering the country illegally, they are convicts. It may be considered a low crime, but it has a big impact. Someone breaking the speed limit can cause any number of fatal events, do we suddenly tell police officers to stop writing speeding tickets because it's such a minor thing on the surface?

I think we can all agree that the borders need to be closed. But let's not lock up all those that are already here. It is not a crime to cross the border. No matter how much we try to make it a crime, congress did not criminalize it. It's not low crime. Against the law yes. Crime now. Legally, that is a HUGE distinction and one that should not be overlooked.

Clavicula_Nox
Apr 19th 2008, 01:11 AM
Oh, I said nothing about locking them up and overcrowding our jails with millions of illegals.

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 02:27 AM
Oh, I said nothing about locking them up and overcrowding our jails with millions of illegals.

I know you didn't. I do want to be clear about crime though... Legally, illegal immigrants are not classified as criminals. It's an important point.

DAISHI
Apr 19th 2008, 09:46 AM
I do,
And if you do come here LEARN OUR LANGUAGE!!!!!!
I am tired of having to learn other languages just because someone
I deal with on a daily bases can't be bothered to learn the USA language,
by the way it's English if anyone has forgotten.

There's no official language of the United States is there? Texas and much of the west were spanish territories originally.

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 11:56 AM
There's no official language of the United States is there? Texas and much of the west were spanish territories originally.

You're right. There's no "official" or government sanctioned language. But there should be.

diffangle
Apr 19th 2008, 02:10 PM
illegal immigrants are not classified as criminals

How does that sheriff in Arizona get away with locking them up then?

SammeyDW
Apr 19th 2008, 02:50 PM
How does that sheriff in Arizona get away with locking them up then?

The problem is that according to the law illegal immigrants are braking the law and need to be locked up / deported.
But the problem is that more and more judges, cops, presidents, etc. look the other way as far as illegal immigrants.
Just like they do with certain sins..:hmm:

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 06:18 PM
How does that sheriff in Arizona get away with locking them up then?

I don't know anything about that. But I do know that when congress tried to make immigrating illegally a criminal offense, it did not pass.

Brother Mark
Apr 19th 2008, 06:19 PM
The problem is that according to the law illegal immigrants are braking the law and need to be locked up / deported.
But the problem is that more and more judges, cops, presidents, etc. look the other way as far as illegal immigrants.
Just like they do with certain sins..:hmm:

Sorry. But it's not the judges. It's the law. Being an illegal immigrant doesn't make one a criminal. There are laws that if you break them, you are considered a criminal and there are laws that if you break them, you are simply a law breaker but not a criminal. If someone speeds, they are not a criminal, yet they broke the law.

Clavicula_Nox
Apr 19th 2008, 11:35 PM
Again, we shouldn't stop writing speeding tickets and we shouldn't stop deporting illegal immigrants.

Brother Mark
Apr 20th 2008, 02:01 PM
Again, we shouldn't stop writing speeding tickets and we shouldn't stop deporting illegal immigrants.

Deporting is within the law. Though I would prefer the law be changed.

We need to ease our immigration stance anyway. When our economy is growing, finding good workers is next to impossible!

Warrior4God
Apr 20th 2008, 08:05 PM
Deporting is within the law. Though I would prefer the law be changed.

We need to ease our immigration stance anyway. When our economy is growing, finding good workers is next to impossible!

We need borders and we need them secured. We can't just let everybody come here with no questions asked. If we did, our population would explode and there would be an excess of workers, driving wages and benefits down even more than they are now. Employees would be a dime a dozen. Everybody would be so replaceable and there would be even less job security then there is now. Crime would likely increase due to more poverty and the stresses of an overloaded population. I think there would just be more tension and even hatred for those coming here who are helping to create such problems. My stance is not a matter of being cruel. It's about wanting to avoid economic and cultural chaos. Also, I agree with another poster that stated there should be an official language for the United States. Though there are various languages spoken here, the predominantly spoken language, whether right or wrong, is English. I appreciate that there is diversity in this nation, but I don't feel I should have to speak Spanish, Chinese, Russian, Polish, Swedish, Nigerian, French, Italian, Cambodian, German, etc., just to be able to have a conversation with any particular person at any given point in time. Think about it. If I moved to China, though there are some people who could speak English there I could communicate with, I would be expected to learn at least a basic level of Chinese to fit into their culture. Sorry if that's so blunt, but that's just how I roll. :D

Brother Mark
Apr 20th 2008, 09:35 PM
We need borders and we need them secured. We can't just let everybody come here with no questions asked. If we did, our population would explode and there would be an excess of workers, driving wages and benefits down even more than they are now. Employees would be a dime a dozen. Everybody would be so replaceable and there would be even less job security then there is now. Crime would likely increase due to more poverty and the stresses of an overloaded population. I think there would just be more tension and even hatred for those coming here who are helping to create such problems. My stance is not a matter of being cruel. It's about wanting to avoid economic and cultural chaos. Also, I agree with another poster that stated there should be an official language for the United States. Though there are various languages spoken here, the predominantly spoken language, whether right or wrong, is English. I appreciate that there is diversity in this nation, but I don't feel I should have to speak Spanish, Chinese, Russian, Polish, Swedish, Nigerian, French, Italian, Cambodian, German, etc., just to be able to have a conversation with any particular person at any given point in time. Think about it. If I moved to China, though there are some people who could speak English there I could communicate with, I would be expected to learn at least a basic level of Chinese to fit into their culture. Sorry if that's so blunt, but that's just how I roll. :D

Actually, a growing population in an industrial society almost always leads to an economic boom. More people = more demand = more need for jobs = more people. That has been repeated countless times throughout history.

Now, you say that we need a secure border less all these bad things happen to us. And I say the massive wave of immigrants that has occurred has done nothing like that at all!

On the other hand, we do need a secure border. 9/11 changed everything concerning that. But in dealing with the immigrant, we should be kind and gentle both as a country and as individuals.

What does our father say about such issues?

Matt 25:41-43
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
NASB

Or even more interesting...

Matt 5:40-42
40 "And if anyone wants to sue you, and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. 41 "And whoever shall force you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
NASB

How then can I stand before God and say "God, all these folks from Mexico are going to make me poorer. I have 10 shirts and they have 1. Let's send them back so I can keep my 9. I know they are hungry, but I need 2 cars, a big house, a big closet, and well you know, they have their own country." :hmm:

They are strangers in a strange land and I desire to have compassion on them.

Mograce2U
Apr 21st 2008, 02:01 AM
I think we can all agree that the borders need to be closed. But let's not lock up all those that are already here. It is not a crime to cross the border. No matter how much we try to make it a crime, congress did not criminalize it. It's not low crime. Against the law yes. Crime now. Legally, that is a HUGE distinction and one that should not be overlooked.Crossing the border in and of itself is not the big deal. That is costs them upwards of $3,000 each to do so is a crime - by the "coyotes" who extort them. For $40 they can purchase social security numbers and green cards. With those social security numbers - which belong to you and me; they can obtain credit and services. Even the banks have stopped the requirement that a legal ssn is needed to open an account and now solicit for their business. With that false identification they can also finance vehicles but do not get driver's licenses nor insurance - and when the cops stop them they let them go. Now if you or I are caught without a license or insurance we have a fine to pay. But if you never had one in the first place then you have not violated that law. Think about it. There is a double standard at work when it comes to illegals.

So we have millions of people in this country who we do not know who they are, who were never fingerprinted like the rest of us; and who live in the subculture of crime and criminals. They commit felonies and are not called to account for it. Identity theft is a felony as is obtaining credit under false pretence (and failing to repay it), as is failing to pay taxes - the list goes on and on if anyone is interested. Truth is they are not. A bill that would allow them to get driver's licenses was overturned here - which would at least have allowed us to identify these people when they are caught breaking the laws. Laws which you and I must obey.

I work in an industry which mostly employs only hispanic illegals. Did you know that attorneys here are not allowed to advertise for worker's comp claims on TV like they used to do - but they are on the spanish channels? It takes less than 6 months for them to learn to work the system here. And they are helped to do it at every turn by those very people who are supposed to be responsible for seeing the laws of our country upheld.

Graft and corruption knows no bounds when money is the god men worship. If we truly wanted to be merciful, kind and loving we would put a stop to it. Europe has a guest worker system which sounds like something we ought to adopt. But none of these crooked men who prey on these people want to see that happen - many of whom are their own countrymen. And it goes all the way up to the top.

Brother Mark
Apr 21st 2008, 02:53 AM
Crossing the border in and of itself is not the big deal.

Right.


That is costs them upwards of $3,000 each to do so is a crime - by the "coyotes" who extort them. For $40 they can purchase social security numbers and green cards. With those social security numbers - which belong to you and me; they can obtain credit and services. Even the banks have stopped the requirement that a legal ssn is needed to open an account and now solicit for their business. With that false identification they can also finance vehicles but do not get driver's licenses nor insurance - and when the cops stop them they let them go. Now if you or I are caught without a license or insurance we have a fine to pay. But if you never had one in the first place then you have not violated that law. Think about it. There is a double standard at work when it comes to illegals.

So we have millions of people in this country who we do not know who they are, who were never fingerprinted like the rest of us; and who live in the subculture of crime and criminals. They commit felonies and are not called to account for it. Identity theft is a felony as is obtaining credit under false pretence (and failing to repay it), as is failing to pay taxes - the list goes on and on if anyone is interested. Truth is they are not. A bill that would allow them to get driver's licenses was overturned here - which would at least have allowed us to identify these people when they are caught breaking the laws. Laws which you and I must obey.

I work in an industry which mostly employs only hispanic illegals. Did you know that attorneys here are not allowed to advertise for worker's comp claims on TV like they used to do - but they are on the spanish channels? It takes less than 6 months for them to learn to work the system here. And they are helped to do it at every turn by those very people who are supposed to be responsible for seeing the laws of our country upheld.

Graft and corruption knows no bounds when money is the god men worship. If we truly wanted to be merciful, kind and loving we would put a stop to it. Europe has a guest worker system which sounds like something we ought to adopt. But none of these crooked men who prey on these people want to see that happen - many of whom are their own countrymen. And it goes all the way up to the top.


And yet, we know the story you tell is not the only story for each and every immigrant that crosses the border illegally. We can enforce the laws and where folks have been criminal, the consequences can be brought to bear.

SS#'s are not all real numbers. Some pay into SS and will never get back because their numbers are not real numbers. Still, there is a problem. And as you said, when men love money all kinds of bad things happen. How many US citizens, church going and bible believing citizens are more interested in protecting their wealth than in helping those that are so poor, they risk everything they have to come here for work? Is it so hard for us to risk our standard of living to help increase the standard of living for those less fortunate than ourselves? (I say that even though I believe the standard of living will increase as folks come to this country. Look at what happened the last time we had a huge wave of immigrants.)

Most folks that preach hard against the legality of immigration often speak of the material loss to themselves. Is that not a sign of the spirit doing the preaching?

Warrior4God
Apr 21st 2008, 03:30 AM
So we have millions of people in this country who we do not know who they are, who were never fingerprinted like the rest of us; and who live in the subculture of crime and criminals. They commit felonies and are not called to account for it. Identity theft is a felony as is obtaining credit under false pretence (and failing to repay it), as is failing to pay taxes - the list goes on and on if anyone is interested.

This is a little off the topic I started in this thread, and I'm not claiming to be uttering divine prophecy, but this identity theft we are hearing about so much lately is, I believe, going to eventually usher in the coming of the "mark of the beast." Protection against identity theft will likely be one of the justifications used (by the anti-christ ruled One World Order government) for requiring a "mark" in order to keep track of everybody's identities, who can buy and sell, etc. I can't be the only one who sees this likelihood, right? :confused

IPet2_9
Apr 21st 2008, 05:05 AM
I think we can all agree that the borders need to be closed.

Nope. Not here. I am absolutely against closing our borders. I might add that, once we build our big Berlin Wall, it will not only block those "illegal" Mexicans from coming in--it will block Americans from getting out. But...us...turn into East Germany? Nooooo, of course not...that could never happen to us....

Brother Mark
Apr 21st 2008, 01:43 PM
LOS ANGELES, April 21 (UPI) -- Los Angeles is at the leading edge of a U.S. demographic trend, with half of its workforce immigrants, many of them unskilled and speaking little English.

As baby boomers retire, the same pattern will emerge across the country, the Los Angeles Times reported Sunday. Demographers estimate that by 2025 most of the growth in the workforce will be from immigrants.

Ernesto Cortes Jr., Southwest regional director of the Industrial Areas Foundation, said Los Angeles is at a crossroads.

"The question is: Are we going to be a 21st century city with shared prosperity, or a Third World city with an elite group on top and the majority at poverty or near poverty wages?" he asked. "Right now we're headed toward becoming a Third World city. But we can change that."

The Migration Policy Institute used U.S. Census data to determine that one-third of immigrants have not graduated from high school and 60 percent do not speak English fluently.

Cortes, with former U.S. Housing and Urban Development Secretary Henry Cisneros and others, is to participate in a conference this week at the University of Southern California (http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2008/04/21/50_percent_of_la_workforce_are_immigrants/3251/#) on how to train and integrate immigrant workers.

Brother Mark
Apr 21st 2008, 01:44 PM
I wonder how many of them are illegal? 50% is a HUGE number. If we deport all the illegal immigrants, our economy would cool very, very quickly.

diffangle
Apr 21st 2008, 01:47 PM
I wonder how many of them are illegal? 50% is a HUGE number. If we deport all the illegal immigrants, our economy would cool very, very quickly.
Tighten up on the welfare and then lazy Americans will want to fill those jobs.

Brother Mark
Apr 21st 2008, 01:50 PM
Tighten up on the welfare and then lazy Americans will want to fill those jobs.

Welfare was tightened up and is a very, very small amount of money these days compared to the overall budget. LA is a HUGE city. 50% is an astronomical number. Though not all of those are illegal.

Also, welfare now has a lifetime limit on it along with educational or working requirements.

The economy would collapse is all the illegals were deported. That is why congress will not ever deport completely. They will make a show, but that's all it will be. They know what will happen if full deportation comes to fruition. Look for them to lock down the border then pass a reform that allows those here to continue to stay here.

Clavicula_Nox
Apr 21st 2008, 03:43 PM
So, what do we do when the Mexican army conducts operations while armed on US territory? This happens, and the guardsmen we have on the border are issued weapons but no ammunition, they are also spread out in too wide of an area to do anything.

Revinius
Apr 22nd 2008, 02:44 AM
So, what do we do when the Mexican army conducts operations while armed on US territory? This happens, and the guardsmen we have on the border are issued weapons but no ammunition, they are also spread out in too wide of an area to do anything.

I do believe thats called an act of aggression and would require countermeasures.

WonderWoman4Jesus
Apr 22nd 2008, 02:54 AM
First off, let me say this is a hot button topic and one of those issues I'm into. I feel this way: I feel you should come here legally. I am tired of seeing the soveriengty of America being dissolved and the middle class disappearing. I don't like that our population is exploding and our Medicare, Medicaid, and yes, Social Security are going to those who weren't born here!!

I don't like that they're catered to in Spanish. Learn the language of English and love to learn America. Many immigrants came from everywhere in the 1800s-1900s. You can keep your native language and some traditions, but love America and speak the language. This isn't about Hispanics, it's about people breaking our laws and we're helping them! Some credit card companies are giving them special treatment, and yes, illegals can go to any out-of-district college and not pay out-of-district fees:o:o How is that fair to poor natural-born citizens??

I believe we need to dry up the jobs and reasons they come over here. But, I do believe we should be kind and Christian-like to them. We should respect them as people and I believe what we're doing to these illegals is modern-day slave labor. The hours they work and conditions are deplorable. We need to pray for them, but also look for solutions.

Clavicula_Nox
Apr 22nd 2008, 03:20 AM
I do believe thats called an act of aggression and would require countermeasures.

But it has been happening, the guardsmen or border patrol can only ask them to leave, but there seems to be no enforcement.

Ashley274
Apr 22nd 2008, 04:33 AM
Myself I am against ILLEGAL immigration not the people. Let them come in legally. I know this may sound harsh and I do not care..we spend BILLIONS to pay their medical care and they are not legal ..many US people can't get free care ...I am against it 100% We have laws ..we are all suppose to follow them let them and I do not care where they come from.

Revinius
Apr 22nd 2008, 06:15 AM
But it has been happening, the guardsmen or border patrol can only ask them to leave, but there seems to be no enforcement.

Perhaps instead of overstretching the military on self-made bandaid jobs overseas they could be used for national security as was their original purpose. Alternatively militia could be once again called up to reinforce where needed.

Clavicula_Nox
Apr 22nd 2008, 12:20 PM
Perhaps instead of overstretching the military on self-made bandaid jobs overseas they could be used for national security as was their original purpose. Alternatively militia could be once again called up to reinforce where needed.

They are..that's what the national guard is, a state militia. Soldiers have been patrolling the border for years, neither Iraq nor Afghanistan has changed that.

Brother Mark
Apr 22nd 2008, 12:29 PM
So, what do we do when the Mexican army conducts operations while armed on US territory? This happens, and the guardsmen we have on the border are issued weapons but no ammunition, they are also spread out in too wide of an area to do anything.

We need more border security. I am certainly in favor of making our border tighter.

diffangle
Apr 22nd 2008, 01:39 PM
Welfare was tightened up and is a very, very small amount of money these days compared to the overall budget. LA is a HUGE city. 50% is an astronomical number. Though not all of those are illegal.

Also, welfare now has a lifetime limit on it along with educational or working requirements.

The economy would collapse is all the illegals were deported. That is why congress will not ever deport completely. They will make a show, but that's all it will be. They know what will happen if full deportation comes to fruition. Look for them to lock down the border then pass a reform that allows those here to continue to stay here.
There's no such thing as a hungry American so imo it wasn't tightened enough. If people were hungry they would be willing to work those jobs that everyone says "we need the illegal immigrants b/c no American will do that job"... well if they were hungry they would do it.

Brother Mark
Apr 22nd 2008, 01:49 PM
There's no such thing as a hungry American so imo it wasn't tightened enough. If people were hungry they would be willing to work those jobs that everyone says "we need the illegal immigrants b/c no American will do that job"... well if they were hungry they would do it.

There not hungry because there is plenty of work for them already. It's not a matter of amercans not being willing to do the work. It's a matter of full employment.

diffangle
Apr 22nd 2008, 01:57 PM
There not hungry because there is plenty of work for them already. It's not a matter of amercans not being willing to do the work. It's a matter of full employment.
Yes it is. They get alot of handouts in this country... they don't have to work in order to get their needs met so they don't. You've obviously never offered a job to someone standing on the side of the road with a sign saying "will work for food"... you'll be hard-pressed to find one that would actually accept your offer.

Clavicula_Nox
Apr 22nd 2008, 02:01 PM
The homeless veterans here will work, but Fayetteville made it illegal to be homeless...so now they just do whatever they can and hope they don't get picked up.

diffangle
Apr 22nd 2008, 02:25 PM
The homeless veterans here will work, but Fayetteville made it illegal to be homeless...so now they just do whatever they can and hope they don't get picked up.
Couldn't they leave Fayetteville and go somewhere where it isn't illegal? What's stopping them from doing the jobs the illegal immigrants do?

HisLeast
Apr 22nd 2008, 02:45 PM
Couldn't they leave Fayetteville and go somewhere where it isn't illegal? What's stopping them from doing the jobs the illegal immigrants do?

Moving is expensive for one thing. Its also hard to just roll into town and get a job, especially when you're that close to being homeless anyway.

diffangle
Apr 22nd 2008, 02:52 PM
Moving is expensive for one thing. Its also hard to just roll into town and get a job, especially when you're that close to being homeless anyway.
Moving is expensive for people with a house full of junk to move. If all you have is a backpack then all it takes is a bus ticket to get to the next town. How do all the illegal immigrants do it?

Clavicula_Nox
Apr 22nd 2008, 03:37 PM
Couldn't they leave Fayetteville and go somewhere where it isn't illegal? What's stopping them from doing the jobs the illegal immigrants do?

Honestly..many of them stay in Fayetteville because it is their home. There is a huge pull to stay near a soldier's place of duty. Some of them might want to leave, but are more concerned with getting money for food rather than money for a bus ticket to X place in the hopes that the atmosphere will be better and maybe they can get work there. We don't have much of an illegal immigrant problem here, but my hometown in Iowa is now in an intense battle against illegals who ARE taking good paying jobs that were once manned by citizens or legal immigrants.

Mograce2U
Apr 22nd 2008, 03:59 PM
Moving is expensive for people with a house full of junk to move. If all you have is a backpack then all it takes is a bus ticket to get to the next town. How do all the illegal immigrants do it?They have a network of people who are willing to help them - for a price - with housing, jobs, loans, etc. Many of our homeless citizens on the otherhand will work the system, but not turn to family and friends for help. One thing I have noticed about the illegals is they are not lazy.

(Prov 29:13 KJV) The poor and the deceitful man meet together: the LORD lighteneth both their eyes.

diffangle
Apr 22nd 2008, 04:10 PM
Honestly..many of them stay in Fayetteville because it is their home. There is a huge pull to stay near a soldier's place of duty. Some of them might want to leave, but are more concerned with getting money for food rather than money for a bus ticket to X place in the hopes that the atmosphere will be better and maybe they can get work there. We don't have much of an illegal immigrant problem here, but my hometown in Iowa is now in an intense battle against illegals who ARE taking good paying jobs that were once manned by citizens or legal immigrants.
Since it's their home then don't they have friends and family that could help them out? As far as the food thing, there are lots of places(my city for one) that give away a lot of free food, shelter, and other stuff... so those needs can be met for anyone willing to go to those places.

In Iowa, are the citizens and legal immigrants banning together in order to get those jobs back(like seeking help through the legal system, threatening to turn in the employers of illegals, etc)?



They have a network of people who are willing to help them - for a price - with housing, jobs, loans, etc. Many of our homeless citizens on the otherhand will work the system, but not turn to family and friends for help. One thing I have noticed about the illegals is they are not lazy.

(Prov 29:13 KJV) The poor and the deceitful man meet together: the LORD lighteneth both their eyes.
Very true... b/c the illegals have to work in order to eat unlike Americans.

Clavicula_Nox
Apr 22nd 2008, 05:58 PM
Since it's their home then don't they have friends and family that could help them out? As far as the food thing, there are lots of places(my city for one) that give away a lot of free food, shelter, and other stuff... so those needs can be met for anyone willing to go to those places.

In Iowa, are the citizens and legal immigrants banning together in order to get those jobs back(like seeking help through the legal system, threatening to turn in the employers of illegals, etc)?

You know, I'm not from this area and most of my friends are either deployed or have PCS'ed. I have no family here besides my fiance. If something happened to me, I wouldn't have friends or family to fall back on, and neither would most soldiers or veterans in this area.

As for Iowa, I don't know the specifics, I haven't spent more than a month there in the past 4 years. I know some efforts have been made, but nothing has changed for the better.

JenniferBerry
Apr 25th 2008, 08:56 PM
How do we Christians reconcile Romans 13? According to our law of the land... if we knowingly harbor a criminal then we too are breaking our laws.
So then, mans law is higher than Gods law?

Brother Mark
Apr 25th 2008, 09:01 PM
Yes it is. They get alot of handouts in this country... they don't have to work in order to get their needs met so they don't. You've obviously never offered a job to someone standing on the side of the road with a sign saying "will work for food"... you'll be hard-pressed to find one that would actually accept your offer.

I've been an employer for several years now Diffy. I understand how hard it is to get good labor. That's why immigrants are coming here by the millions... because they can get jobs! A small percentage of Americans don't want to work. A higher percentage of the US population works now than have worked before. There will always be deadbeats. No sense in punishing hard workers for it.

The immigration system needs to be changed so more people can come here and work.

diffangle
Apr 26th 2008, 12:48 AM
So then, mans law is higher than Gods law?
Of course not, I never said treat em like dirt. I just don't think we should encourage them to break our laws of the land.


I've been an employer for several years now Diffy. I understand how hard it is to get good labor. That's why immigrants are coming here by the millions... because they can get jobs! A small percentage of Americans don't want to work. A higher percentage of the US population works now than have worked before. There will always be deadbeats. No sense in punishing hard workers for it.

The immigration system needs to be changed so more people can come here and work.
1.76 million Americans are on welfare, they could fill those jobs that the illegals fill, but they won't b/c they don't have to work for their food and shelter... cut the welfare off for those that are too lazy to work and they will start filling those jobs the illegals take, they will be motivated by the lack of shelter and the hunger pains in their stomachs.

Brother Mark
Apr 26th 2008, 12:50 AM
1.76 million Americans are on welfare, they could fill those jobs that the illegals fill, but they won't b/c they don't have to work for their food and shelter... cut the welfare off for those that are too lazy to work and they will start filling those jobs the illegals take, they will be motivated by the lack of shelter and the hunger pains in their stomachs.

1.76 million doesn't even come close to the number of jobs held by illegal immigrants. It's not even in the same ball park. There are an estimated 10 to 20 million illegal immigrants in this country. That number is probably low. IF EVERY single person on welfare got a job tomorrow, we will still be far short of the people needed to do work in this country without illegal immigration. Every congressman and senator knows this fact. That is why none of them are anxious to do anything about it. The best solution begins with fixing the leaky border.

Welfare isn't all bad and not all folks that are on it won't work. Not sure where you get your information from but many on welfare are attending school for better jobs. There is a lifetime benefit associated with it now so it will run out. It's not like it was in the 80s.

JenniferBerry
Apr 26th 2008, 01:03 AM
Of course not, I never said treat em like dirt. I just don't think we should encourage them to break our laws of the land.

And what does God say about how we are to treat the foreigners? Are we to help them if they need help or are we to turn them in to INS?

Brother Mark
Apr 26th 2008, 01:06 AM
And what does God say about how we are to treat the foreigners? Are we to help them if they need help or are we to turn them in to INS?

Maybe we should look at Rahab and see how she handled strangers. God blessed her even though the law of her land was against the spies. :hmm:

JenniferBerry
Apr 26th 2008, 01:10 AM
Maybe we should look at Rahab and see how she handled strangers. God blessed her even though the law of her land was against the spies. :hmm:
Thats a great example in all honesty.

JenniferBerry
Apr 26th 2008, 01:25 AM
What about what this says?

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
2 For by it the men of old gained approval.

Hebrews 11:31 By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace.


Now do you think it was against their laws for her to do what she did?

diffangle
Apr 26th 2008, 01:29 AM
Maybe we should look at Rahab and see how she handled strangers. God blessed her even though the law of her land was against the spies. :hmm:
Rehab helped in the destruction of her fellow countrymen... is that what I'm being called to do?

JenniferBerry
Apr 26th 2008, 01:31 AM
Rehab helped in the destruction of her fellow countrymen... is that what I'm being called to do?
Are you serious? So what? Did she or did she not do what she did in faith in the God of Israel? Do you serve God or do you serve the U.S.?

diffangle
Apr 26th 2008, 01:41 AM
Are you serious? So what? Did she or did she not do what she did in faith in the God of Israel? Do you serve God or do you serve the U.S.?
I haven't had YHWH tell me to toss my fellow law-abiding countrymen under the bus for illegal immigrants yet. ;) Are you saying that YHWH tells us to destroy our fellow countrymen for the sake of illegals?

JenniferBerry
Apr 26th 2008, 01:52 AM
I haven't had YHWH tell me to toss my fellow law-abiding countrymen under the bus for illegal immigrants yet. ;) Are you saying that YHWH tells us to destroy our fellow countrymen for the sake of illegals?
Look I understand your frustration with illegals I really do, BUT, as Christians we have to treat them the way scripture tells us to treat them and that is Love them as we would love ourselves. And yes we are to pay taxes and go the speed limit and so one but when it comes to how we are to treat others the Bible is pretty clear.

diffangle
Apr 26th 2008, 01:58 AM
Look I understand your frustration with illegals I really do, BUT, as Christians we have to treat them the way scripture tells us to treat them and that is Love them as we would love ourselves. And yes we are to pay taxes and go the speed limit and so one but when it comes to how we are to treat others the Bible is pretty clear.
And I've never said treat them like dirt. :P I live in an area that has a high percentage of illegals... not once have I been mean or nasty to them.

Mograce2U
Apr 26th 2008, 02:09 AM
You can hardly draw a parallel between Rahab and the spies sent by God, with the foreigners who come into our land illegally. It is not as though Mexico or any other Latin American country is war-torn and the people there are perishing. Anybody who can get $3,000 or more together to get here is not in poverty.

Helping the homeless, the hungry, the naked, the widow and the orphan is the call of scripture. And in doing that we are to make no distinctions regarding whether they be native born or not. People who come here for REFUGE ought to find it. But that is not what the situation we have here is about. We ought not to be helping people to break the law because of their greed - for that is what it is about. There is nothing wrong with wanting to better one's lot in life but there is way to go about that and a way not to. The problem is, they do not want to wait and with the current laxity in our system they have discovered they do not have to.

I have met other illegals here who came from other countries too, and they did so via our Mexican border. We have the right to decide who can come in and who cannot. And lawbreakers ought to be among those who cannot. There isn't a country in the world that is as lax as we are. No wonder the problem is here and not there.

Break a law in Mexico and you will see what I mean!

stillforgiven
Apr 26th 2008, 02:22 AM
I am very late to this thread, and after reading through four pages, my vision started blurring. I may be posting something that's been discussed, and if so, please forgive me.

This topic is something that's been bugging me for a few years now. I live in an area that also has a lot of illegals, many who are married to local citizens. I personally know of two Christian ladies who are married to illegals, and both of these men have been deported once, before I knew them. I find myself pondering the "what's a Christian supposed to do with this stuff?" situation a lot. Christians are supposed to obey the law, and yet these men are here, working hard (illegally), supporting their wives and children, being involved in church....and they share with others ways to avoid the "law" and being deported. I find myself totally on the fence with this, unable to reconcile Christians that I love breaking the law.

Then I think about the book "The Hiding Place", when they illegally hid Jews and others during WWII, which I believe was the right thing to do, and I wonder where do we draw the line?

This last line may actually have nothing to do with the situation, but these are the thoughts I wrestle with.

JenniferBerry
Apr 26th 2008, 02:25 AM
And I've never said treat them like dirt. :P I live in an area that has a high percentage of illegals... not once have I been mean or nasty to them.
What do you feel towards them?

diffangle
Apr 26th 2008, 02:38 AM
Then I think about the book "The Hiding Place", when they illegally hid Jews and others during WWII, which I believe was the right thing to do, and I wonder where do we draw the line?

The illegal immigrants coming to this country are not in danger of losing their lives to the Mexican government, if that was the case then it would certainly be right to give them refuge.

diffangle
Apr 26th 2008, 02:39 AM
What do you feel towards them?
I feel that they should come to this country the same way all the legal immigrants do if they want to be here.

stillforgiven
Apr 26th 2008, 02:44 AM
The illegal immigrants coming to this country are not in danger of losing their lives to the Mexican government, if that was the case then it would certainly be right to give them refuge.

That's a good point.

Mograce2U
Apr 26th 2008, 02:52 AM
stillforgiven,

Then I think about the book "The Hiding Place", when they illegally hid Jews and others during WWII, which I believe was the right thing to do, and I wonder where do we draw the line?This is where it takes discernment. When people are at peril from evil men, the "law" has no bearing upon conscience. Doing good is always right. But helping men to do wrong is not, when it is without such warrant. Confronting sin and error is as much a part of the gospel as anything. Even "good" men make poor decisions. We ought to help them make the wrongs they have done right. Amnesty I think is needed again. But this time it needs to be accompanied with stricter enforcement of the laws of the land. And a way to allow this much needed workforce to work here - legally; albeit temporarily. Most of them do return home (whether willingly or not) eventually. Why can we not have a quota and a time frame for them to stay? And allow them to have driver's licenses, etc. like everybody else? Then the companies who hire them will not have their hands tied, but can be the ones who aid in the enforcement of this program. Right now that is not the case.

Brother Mark
Apr 26th 2008, 03:42 AM
I haven't had YHWH tell me to toss my fellow law-abiding countrymen under the bus for illegal immigrants yet. ;) Are you saying that YHWH tells us to destroy our fellow countrymen for the sake of illegals?

Another straw man. Illegal immigration is something that needs to be corrected in two ways. 1. Easier immigration laws. 2. Fixing the porous border.

As I have mentioned time and again, the number of illegals doing jobs in the country is HUGE. There are simply not enough workers to do the work here. Now, that may change during the recession. We will see...

Brother Mark
Apr 26th 2008, 03:48 AM
You can hardly draw a parallel between Rahab and the spies sent by God, with the foreigners who come into our land illegally. It is not as though Mexico or any other Latin American country is war-torn and the people there are perishing. Anybody who can get $3,000 or more together to get here is not in poverty.

That's simply not true. Some of the folks do gather that much money. Many do not. Those that do get that much money often do so through putting the family (and sometimes extended family) assets together and then borrowing against them. It is often a life savings of a family. Given the price of food these days, we may see an increase in immigration.


Helping the homeless, the hungry, the naked, the widow and the orphan is the call of scripture. And in doing that we are to make no distinctions regarding whether they be native born or not. People who come here for REFUGE ought to find it. But that is not what the situation we have here is about. We ought not to be helping people to break the law because of their greed - for that is what it is about. There is nothing wrong with wanting to better one's lot in life but there is way to go about that and a way not to. The problem is, they do not want to wait and with the current laxity in our system they have discovered they do not have to. Our immigration laws are far more difficult than they use to be. It's not about greed Robin. I've been in many latin american countries and there is severe poverty there. Greed is a second car. Some of these folks want to make sure they can get through the next year. Greed is not what is driving these folks. Economic opportunity and a better life, sure. Greed, that's laughable.

On the other hand, I think a very good case can be made that it is greed that desires to keep them out of the country.



I have met other illegals here who came from other countries too, and they did so via our Mexican border. We have the right to decide who can come in and who cannot. And lawbreakers ought to be among those who cannot. There isn't a country in the world that is as lax as we are. No wonder the problem is here and not there. No argument there. The US definitely has a right to decide who we will let in and who we won't. There are many countries in the world that have more lenient immigration policies. It is amazing how much stricter we are now than we were 100 years ago.


Break a law in Mexico and you will see what I mean!Illegal immigration is not a federal criminal offense. It has not been criminalized. Some states are passing laws to make it a crime. It will be interesting to see if they have the jurisdiction to do so. The way the law is currently written, it's more akin to a speeding ticket than anything else. That perhaps trivializes it, but it makes a valid point. The law that is being broken is not currently, a severe law. Some in congress tried to criminalize illegal immigration and it failed. Probably won't come up again.

JenniferBerry
Apr 26th 2008, 12:45 PM
I feel that they should come to this country the same way all the legal immigrants do if they want to be here.
I agree they should but they're not. So now faced with the fact that they aren't what do we do now " as Christians" not as Americans? Do we turn them in when they come to us for help or do we supply there needs?

diffangle
Apr 26th 2008, 01:45 PM
I agree they should but they're not. So now faced with the fact that they aren't what do we do now " as Christians" not as Americans? Do we turn them in when they come to us for help or do we supply there needs?
I personally have not turned anyone in to INS, but if I did... turning in someone who is breaking the law would not be a unChristian thing to do and not rewarding their law-breaking would also not be unChristian. If they were beat up and needed immediate medical attention then I would definately help out but I don't agree with our current system of "let's reward the lawbreakers".