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View Full Version : Did Paul and Jesus teach the same about Hell?



mikebr
Apr 16th 2008, 09:59 PM
A quote from Brother Mark


Our view of Christ and his teachings definitely grows as we mature in the Lord. The calvinist still preaches that only those that believe in Christ IN THIS LIFE go to heaven. The Arminian the same. Others that preach differently preach a message that neither Paul nor Jesus taught.

In every case but one (Luke 16) Jesus used the word Gehenna when talking about judgment yet Paul never used the word Gehenna. (nor anyone else except James how used it one time) Paul only used the word hades one time and then he said that it had no power. "Death, where is your sting? Hades, where is your victory?" 1Cor 15:55.

Gehenna was a literal place and no where else in scripture is a literal place changed to mean something in the spiritual.

Were Jesus and Paul teaching the same thing?

Roelof
Apr 17th 2008, 12:07 PM
The word "hades" is only used in:

because You will not leave My soul in Hades, nor will You allow Your holy One to see corruption. (Act 2:27, NKJV)


seeing this beforehand, he spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor would His flesh see corruption, (Act 2:31)

David Taylor
Apr 17th 2008, 12:38 PM
A quote from Brother Mark



In every case but one (Luke 16) Jesus used the word Gehenna when talking about judgment yet Paul never used the word Gehenna. (nor anyone else except James how used it one time) Paul only used the word hades one time and then he said that it had no power. "Death, where is your sting? Hades, where is your victory?" 1Cor 15:55.

Gehenna was a literal place and no where else in scripture is a literal place changed to mean something in the spiritual.

Were Jesus and Paul teaching the same thing?




Paul was quoting on of the minor prophets when he said the death sting verse...one of the "H's"....Hosea or Haggai, I always forget which one.

David Taylor
Apr 17th 2008, 12:41 PM
Hades and Sheol were both used to describe at times 'the grave'...like in those Roelof verses.

The NT is clear though, that the destiny of the wicked after death is conscious and unending:


torment
fire
suffering
darkness
weeping
gnashing
remorse

mikebr
Apr 18th 2008, 10:20 PM
Thanks for your replies but:

Can you explain why Jesus used the word Gehenna and Paul nor any of the other NT writers used the word? James is the exception. He used it once in James 3:6 and seems to be speaking about the power of the tongue.

It seems that at least one of them would have mentioned something as important as Gehenna if it was a fiery eternal damnation.

David Taylor
Apr 19th 2008, 08:43 PM
Thanks for your replies but:

Can you explain why Jesus used the word Gehenna and Paul nor any of the other NT writers used the word? James is the exception. He used it once in James 3:6 and seems to be speaking about the power of the tongue.

It seems that at least one of them would have mentioned something as important as Gehenna if it was a fiery eternal damnation.



Probably for the same reason the word "Church" isn't used in 80% of the N.T. verses, and isn't found in Revelation after chapter 3.....not because believers are missing from 80% of the Bible; but because the writer chose to use other words.

In the case of Gehenna, perhaps words like fire, flame, torment, darkness, abyss, lake, etc....were preferred.

No reason to build a doctrine around the useage, or lack of useage, of a word.


There are plenty of Scriptures describing the eternal state of the dead and the torment, consciousness, and flames they endure.

Don't try to turn this into a debate advancing either Universalism or Annhilationism. Just incase you might be wanting to take it there.

Thanks

Roelof
Apr 22nd 2008, 08:44 AM
David

Interesting remarks and view point.

IPet2_9
Apr 22nd 2008, 03:00 PM
I don't see why Paul would have to preach about Hell if Jesus already had it covered? The Bible ended up as one consistent book. If I co-write a book on Calculus with somebody, and the other guy writes several chapters on integrals, I'm not going to talk about integrals myself--I'm going to write about derivatives. There is no need for me to "corroborate' the other guy's writings about integrals in the same book. That would be silly.

mikebr
Apr 22nd 2008, 07:04 PM
I don't see why Paul would have to preach about Hell if Jesus already had it covered? The Bible ended up as one consistent book. If I co-write a book on Calculus with somebody, and the other guy writes several chapters on integrals, I'm not going to talk about integrals myself--I'm going to write about derivatives. There is no need for me to "corroborate' the other guy's writings about integrals in the same book. That would be silly.

One major problem; they were talking to two different audiences. They were not writing a book. We tend to forget that the people that Paul was speaking to didn't have what Jesus said in writing. He (Paul) also repeated many things that Jesus did say.

IPet2_9
Apr 23rd 2008, 07:32 PM
No, but the Council of Nicea DID put together a single book. Paul and Jesus both said plenty of things that did not get into the Bible. There is no need to include what Paul said about Hell in the Bible if it's already included elsewhere. Plus, it's not really the Council of Nicea who put together the Bible--it's God who put it together. Same thing, same reason.

mikebr
Apr 25th 2008, 07:40 PM
No, but the Council of Nicea DID put together a single book. Paul and Jesus both said plenty of things that did not get into the Bible. There is no need to include what Paul said about Hell in the Bible if it's already included elsewhere. Plus, it's not really the Council of Nicea who put together the Bible--it's God who put it together. Same thing, same reason.



Paul and Jesus said plenty of things that didn't get into the bible.........

1. how do you know this?
2. wouldn't you say the fact that billions and billions of people are going to burn for all eternity should be mentioned by Paul?

IPet2_9
Apr 25th 2008, 08:42 PM
1. how do you know this?

Are you serious? Obviously the Bible does not record every single thing Paul and Jesus said. Nonetheless, if you really need proof of that:

John 20:30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.



2. wouldn't you say the fact that billions and billions of people are going to burn for all eternity should be mentioned by Paul?

Sure...just not in the Bible. God--the guy who wrote the Book--decided it wasn't necessary. If indeed Paul never mentioned Hell in the Bible.

mccain22
Apr 25th 2008, 11:03 PM
I don't see why Paul would have to preach about Hell if Jesus already had it covered? why does my mom have to tell me more than once to clean my room? then after hearing her say it my step dad has to tell me again? haha;)

Remember that the Gospels weren't written until well after Christs ascension. They were written around 70 AD i believe. so no one had physical access to Christs teachings at the time paul was writing. why does Jesus constantly repeat some of his own teachings and teachings of the Old testament? It probably means that what he is teaching is pretty important and wants us to listen to what he is saying.

mikebr
Apr 26th 2008, 02:17 AM
Are you serious? Obviously the Bible does not record every single thing Paul and Jesus said. Nonetheless, if you really need proof of that:

John 20:30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.




Sure...just not in the Bible. God--the guy who wrote the Book--decided it wasn't necessary. If indeed Paul never mentioned Hell in the Bible.


I guess I meant, how do you know that Paul preached on hell?

My heart's Desire
Apr 26th 2008, 03:14 AM
Thanks for your replies but:

Can you explain why Jesus used the word Gehenna and Paul nor any of the other NT writers used the word? James is the exception. He used it once in James 3:6 and seems to be speaking about the power of the tongue.

It seems that at least one of them would have mentioned something as important as Gehenna if it was a fiery eternal damnation.
Gehenna was a place where sacrifices were made and rubbish burned there (2 Chr. 33:6 Jer. 7:31). I think Jesus used it because the Jewish people could more than understand the precept of judgement when this place was used as an illustration.
Paul was sent to the Gentiles, some who may not have been so familiar with that place. (or maybe they were?)
Well, as well as I know the Word and I never thought about Paul never mentioning Hell! Wow. ! But I do know he told about judgement.

Brother Mark
Apr 26th 2008, 04:19 AM
Gehenna was a literal place and no where else in scripture is a literal place changed to mean something in the spiritual.

Sure there is. It's happened plenty of times but here is only one example.

Rev 11:8

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
KJV


Were Jesus and Paul teaching the same thing?


Jesus taught where the rich man lifted his eyes in Hell. That doesn't happen in a physical place on earth. ;)

Brother Mark
Apr 26th 2008, 04:25 AM
1. how do you know this?
2. wouldn't you say the fact that billions and billions of people are going to burn for all eternity should be mentioned by Paul?

It was mentioned in other places. All it takes is once to get my attention. Twice would pretty much seal the deal sense in the mouth of two witnesses a matter is confirmed.

Eternal suffering is mentioned in many places in scripture. Some might not like it, but it's there.

Most importantly, Jesus himself spoke of eternal damnation.

Mark 3:29

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
KJV

David Taylor
Apr 28th 2008, 12:35 PM
9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

mikebr
Apr 28th 2008, 01:42 PM
Gehenna was a place where sacrifices were made and rubbish burned there (2 Chr. 33:6 Jer. 7:31). I think Jesus used it because the Jewish people could more than understand the precept of judgement when this place was used as an illustration.
Paul was sent to the Gentiles, some who may not have been so familiar with that place. (or maybe they were?)
Well, as well as I know the Word and I never thought about Paul never mentioning Hell! Wow. ! But I do know he told about judgement.

If Jesus meant anything other than the literal place, the valley outside Jerusalem then as far as I know its the only place in scripture where a literal place is used as a symbol for a future place.



Judgment is not the issue. We will all be judged. I don't think anyone would argue that. But it seems odd to me that a place of literal fire where billions of people will burn for billions of years(and we're just getting started) is not mentioned in the epistles.

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 01:50 PM
If Jesus meant anything other than the literal place, the valley outside Jerusalem then as far as I know its the only place in scripture where a literal place is used as a symbol for a future place.

Jerusalem was used as a literal place to symbolically represent a new Jerusalem to come later. ;)


Judgment is not the issue. We will all be judged. I don't think anyone would argue that. But it seems odd to me that a place of literal fire where billions of people will burn for billions of years(and we're just getting started) is not mentioned in the epistles.

How many times would Jesus need to speak about it for it to be true? Eternal torment is mentioned in more places than just the gospels even if the words used are different. But the fact that Jesus said it should give us great pause.

James 3:6
6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.
NASB

The word hell in James 6 is also gehena. Do you think James is using a literal place metaphorically in this passage?

David Taylor
Apr 28th 2008, 10:03 PM
If Jesus meant anything other than the literal place, the valley outside Jerusalem then as far as I know its the only place in scripture where a literal place is used as a symbol for a future place.



The Earthly tree and river of life was used to symbolize the future heavenly tree and river of life found in eternity of Heaven.
The literal rainbow in the earthly sky was given as a symbol for the perfect heavenly rainbow described in Rev 4.
The promised land in Canaan was a literal place flowing with Milk and Honey, that was used to symbolize a future perfect Heavenly promised land.
The temple built with hands was a literal place that was used to symbolize a future perfect temple built without hands, high in the heavens.
The literal blood and broken bodies of lambs were used to symbolize the future perfect broken and bloodied Lamb of God.
The literal Holy of Holies was used to symbolize the very presence of God on Earth, that symbolized the future presence within the hearts of God's children.
The literal city of Babylon and nation of Egypt were both used to symbolize the future and continuing kingdom of Satan in rebellion of God, all the way up to the end of all things.
The tattered, blood spattered robe worn before Pilate and Herod was symbolic of the later heavenly vestiture worn by the returning King of Kings.
and on, and on, and on go the Biblical examples of symbolism pre-type and for-fulfillment.

RevLogos
May 1st 2008, 06:11 PM
A quote from Brother Mark



In every case but one (Luke 16) Jesus used the word Gehenna when talking about judgment yet Paul never used the word Gehenna. (nor anyone else except James how used it one time) Paul only used the word hades one time and then he said that it had no power. "Death, where is your sting? Hades, where is your victory?" 1Cor 15:55.

Gehenna was a literal place and no where else in scripture is a literal place changed to mean something in the spiritual.

Were Jesus and Paul teaching the same thing?

I can think of two reasons. Gehenna was a waste dump near Jerusalem, AKA the “Valley of Ben Hinnom”. The Jews used this as a metaphor for a place of eternal punishment; some information can also be found in the Old Testament in 2Ch_28:3, 2Ch_33:6, 2Ki_23:10. Evil things happened there.

Jesus often used metaphors and parables; also he spoke primarily to the Jews so it would be natural for him to use this term.

Paul spoke primarily to the Gentiles who would not be so aware of this place as a metaphor for hell. So it makes sense he wouldn't use it. Also the apostles didn't make such extensive use of parables and metaphors.

So I don't think the difference in terms represents a theological difference.