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Brother Mark
Apr 17th 2008, 04:35 AM
OK, before you blow a theological circuit... bear with me. :D

In the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus prayed the following...

Mark 14:34-37
34 And He said to them, "My soul is deeply grieved to the point of death; remain here and keep watch." 35 And He went a little beyond them, and fell to the ground, and began to pray that if it were possible, the hour might pass Him by. 36 And He was saying, "Abba! Father! All things are possible for Thee; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what Thou wilt."
NASB

Right there, Jesus said it was possible for God to do something different than having him die. There was another way! Jesus even confirmed it to Peter later.

Matt 26:52-53
52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. 53 "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
NASB

Jesus said he could have called legions of angels to come. What would they have done?

Well, let's look at another OT example.

Ex 32:9-14
9 And the Lord said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and behold, they are an obstinate people. 10 "Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them, and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation." 11 Then Moses entreated the Lord his God, and said, "O Lord, why doth Thine anger burn against Thy people whom Thou hast brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 "Why should the Egyptians speak, saying, 'With evil intent He brought them out to kill them in the mountains and to destroy them from the face of the earth'? Turn from Thy burning anger and change Thy mind about doing harm to Thy people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Thy servants to whom Thou didst swear by Thyself, and didst say to them, 'I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heavens, and all this land of which I have spoken I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.'" 14 So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
NASB

First, God was going to destroy Israel. He would have been justified in doing so. He could have started all over with Moses. Then he decided to let them live even though he chastised them. And he was justified in what he did. Whether he destroyed them or let them live, he was justified. He could do either or because he is God.

No, fast forward to the garden. Jesus did not have to die because God could have sent angels, at Christ request, to destroy the world and set him free. God would have been justified in doing so. He could have started all over again. He could have created another Adam and another Eve and sent all the others to hell and been completely justified.

BUT thank God, that he is a God of love. He did not do so, even though he could. But he loved man and was determined to save him. Because of this, Jesus went on to say...

Matt 26:53-55
53 "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 "How then shall the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen this way?"
NASB

God could have gone another way. But because he is love, it was his desire to save the world. God can do whatever he pleases. Thank God it pleased him to save us.

Nyoka
Apr 17th 2008, 05:17 AM
Thank God indeed! I am so glad He did it the way He did. Don't get me wrong as I am sorry that Jesus had to suffer so terribly for me but any other way would have meant my spiritual and physical death. He gave me life instead of the death I deserved.:pp

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 20th 2008, 03:52 AM
Hey, Mark;

You are right...Christ did not have to die, but He did so out of love for us.

Something you said, though, caught my attention. You said that He could have annihilated everything, sent everyone to Hell, and started over.

God knows all things. He always has, and always will. Therefore, He knew that He would have to suffer and die even before He created us. He also knew that Satan would rebel even before he was created. Even before the angels were created, God knew the havoc that Satan would reak on His future creation. In spite of all this, God created Satan, and us.

Not only that, but because He knew just when Satan would rebel, and He timed our creation accordingly. He allowed Satan to enter the Garden, to tempt Adam and Eve, which brought sin into the world, which He conquered, that we may conquer it through Him, that we may be glorified with Christ. Think about it...He created us in order that, in the end, we may be glorified with Christ, and share in His truth, love, and Heaven.

Now, we know that God does things in order that He may be glorified. So, then, the way I see it, God knew every option that He had in creation. God knew that He wanted to create, and for some reason, He decided to do it this way. IMO, He did so because He knew that this mode of creation would best glorify Himself...that it would be superior to any other option that He may have had at His disposal.

He created us with a free will, so that we would choose Him, thus glorifying Him. In order for there to be a choice, there has to be something to choose from. If there were no Satan, then obviously, there would be few options from which we could choose...unless, of course, there was another option besides Satan that would have been more destructive, more evil, etc. Only God knows.

You are right-on when you say that Jesus could have just annihilated the whole thing....but I honestly believe that if God knew from the beginning that mankind had no hope of being redeemed, He wouldn't have created Adam and Eve in the first place, and it probably wouldn't have come to the point of His crucifixion. He definitely wouldn't have allowed mankind to continue existing, that's for sure.

One of the things that I absolutely adore God for is the fact that He does not act on mere emotion, like we humans tend to do. If He had, He probably would have called the angels to come down. Not only that, but the Father probably would have poured out such severe wrath on the people as they mocked Jesus when He was crucified, when Jesus said "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

Throughout the Bible, we see God's infinite patience and love...not acting on pure emotion, but according to His patient and loving spirit.

Brother Mark
Apr 20th 2008, 01:57 PM
What does it mean to "glorify" God?

Did God need for Adam to fall into sin for Jesus to be glorified?

brakelite
Apr 21st 2008, 12:53 PM
To glorify God is to reflect His love and character to the world, just as Jesus did.

Jesus was challenged while He hung on that cross to come down and 'prove' He was He claimed to be, the great 'I AM'. He could have stepped down right then, but chose to 'prove' who He claimed to be by staying right where He was.

The rebellion in heaven brought doubt into the minds of the angels. 1/3 rebelled with Satan. If God had destroyed them, as He was certainly entitled to do, the 2/3 of angels remaining would possibly have bought into Satan's lies and then served God out of fear.
This is not what God wanted. He wants to be served and worshipped out of a heart surrendered in love. By sending His Son to die, God proved to the universe that His rule and governance was fair and just, and thus denied any and all charges that Satan might bring. Satan and sin and the rebellion is thus defeated for all eternity and the security of the universe will be assured. And all the worlds for all eternity will testify that God is Love. And thus is God glorified.

Brother Mark
Apr 21st 2008, 12:58 PM
To glorify God is to reflect His love and character to the world, just as Jesus did.

Exactly! Sin is not needed for God to be glorified. Glorifying God is simply revealing his character. God did not need a fallen world to demonstrate himself to that world.


Jesus was challenged while He hung on that cross to come down and 'prove' He was He claimed to be, the great 'I AM'. He could have stepped down right then, but chose to 'prove' who He claimed to be by staying right where He was.

It was in his character to stay on the cross. You are right. He stayed put because of who he was in his heart.


The rebellion in heaven brought doubt into the minds of the angels. 1/3 rebelled with Satan. If God had destroyed them, as He was certainly entitled to do, the 2/3 of angels remaining would possibly have bought into Satan's lies and then served God out of fear.
This is not what God wanted. He wants to be served and worshipped out of a heart surrendered in love. By sending His Son to die, God proved to the universe that His rule and governance was fair and just, and thus denied any and all charges that Satan might bring. Satan and sin and the rebellion is thus defeated for all eternity and the security of the universe will be assured. And all the worlds for all eternity will testify that God is Love. And thus is God glorified.


God is always glorified when his character is revealed. Sometimes, we think to glorify God is to "serve him, or lift him up, or do some great thing for him, etc." But God will be glorified in both the saint and the sinner in that he will reveal himself through both.

The point is, that nothing has to happen for God to be glorified. He IS glorified through all things as he reveals himself to us. Jesus did not have to die on the cross for God to be glorified. God could have started over just as he offered to do so with Moses. He would have revealed his character of being a just and holy God. But he forgave them and kept going thus revealing his character of being a merciful and gracious God.

I thank God that he is loving and kind. He could have sent those 12 legions of angels and destroyed the world. But being a God of love, he chose not to do so. Thus revealing his love which glorified himself in the process.

karenoka27
Apr 21st 2008, 01:16 PM
Oh Boy! This could be dangerous territory...especially with you Mark;)but I'll give it a try....


Sin is something we do against God who is worthy to be praised and glorified. He is perfect. We are not. And it is against Him only that we sin. We all sin.

Sin had to be paid for in a way that would satisfy a perfect God. Because the life is in the blood, life had to pay for with the life of man or all man would have had to be separated from God for all eternity.

I don't think there was any other way. Jesus Christ was the "Only" One who could pay this price. He was perfect. He did what we could not do.

If you are even open to the idea that another way could have been enough to satisfy our God...do you have some thoughts on what it could have been? Just curious.

Brother Mark
Apr 21st 2008, 01:19 PM
Oh Boy! This could be dangerous territory...especially with you Mark;)but I'll give it a try....


Sin is something we do against a God who is worthy to be praised and glorified. He is perfect. We are not. Adam and Eve proved that. Sin had to be paid for in a way that would satisfy a perfect God. Because the life is in the blood, life had to pay for the life of man or all man would have had to be separated from God for all eternity.

I don't think there was any other way. Jesus Christ was the "Only" One who could pay this price. He was perfect. He did what we could not do.

If you are even open to the idea that another way could have been enough to satisfy our God...do you have some thoughts on what it could have been? Just curious.

Oh, I agree completely with what you are saying. There was no other way to save mankind. The point I am making is that God, being God, wasn't obligated to save mankind. That's why Jesus said he could call 12 legions and God would send them. It would not have been sin for God to send 12 legions to destroy the world and set Jesus free. That's the point I am making. But because God is a God of love, Jesus did die! It was the only way to save me. Thank God he is a God of love!!!!

Matt 26:52-54
52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. 53 "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 "How then shall the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen this way?"
NASB

It HAD to happen that way for us to be saved. But God could have started all over with Jesus just like he offered to start all over with Moses and how he did start all over with Noah. But because he is love, he chose to endure the cross for our sakes.

I hope that clarifies more of what I was learning from these passages.

brakelite
Apr 21st 2008, 11:40 PM
Oh, I agree completely with what you are saying. There was no other way to save mankind. The point I am making is that God, being God, wasn't obligated to save mankind. That's why Jesus said he could call 12 legions and God would send them. It would not have been sin for God to send 12 legions to destroy the world and set Jesus free. That's the point I am making. But because God is a God of love, Jesus did die! It was the only way to save me. Thank God he is a God of love!!!!

Matt 26:52-54
52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. 53 "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 "How then shall the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen this way?"
NASB

It HAD to happen that way for us to be saved. But God could have started all over with Jesus just like he offered to start all over with Moses and how he did start all over with Noah. But because he is love, he chose to endure the cross for our sakes.

I hope that clarifies more of what I was learning from these passages.

Everything God does comes from His nature. Throughout all history the character of God has been distorted. Today we hear of many aspects of character attributed to God, but when we study the life of Jesus, Who came to show us the Father, we see that there is a great misunderstanding of who God is and what He is like.

In Jesus we see the true nature of God. A God who denied Himself and became a man. A God who not only took upon Himself the form of a servant, but died, willingly laying down His life as a ransom for those He Himself had created.
What a contrast to the character of the devil. He desired that His Creator worship him. The Creator worship His creation? Insane!
But Jesus showed the true nature of love that He as Creator should die at the hands of His enemies. And then call upon His Father to forgive them. And then call those who choose to receive His forgiveness His Father's adopted
children. Jesus brethren. And we have the audacity to seek fame and fortune and take pride in who we are!
Did Jesus have to die? To show the full nature and character of God, yes.

And that is precisely the reason we have to die. Until we die to self, we can not show forth the character of God in our lives. Until we die, we can not live. Until we die, we cannot even hope to enter the kingdom of heaven.

John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 22nd 2008, 08:02 PM
What does it mean to "glorify" God?

Did God need for Adam to fall into sin for Jesus to be glorified?


God is glorified through many things...His creation, judgement, mercy, and the death of Jesus Christ, who lived and died that He may "glorify the Father in heaven" (John 13:31,32)....that He may be exalted and glorified in Heaven.
We also know that the angels glorify God in heaven...not just because that's what they were created to do, but because they know that He is worthy of it.
We can also glorify God...not only through our worship, but also through righteous living, and serving Him.
The way I see it, to "glorify" God simply means to bring Him the exaltation that He is so worthy of....it is to bestow honor upon Him, and to draw attention to His splendor, magnificence, and perfection.

I agree that we can glorify God by reflecting His love and character to the world, because to do so, we are exalting Him as the one true source of love, and the perfection of His character.

So, then, not only does God bestow glory upon Himself through His creation, judgement, etc., so do the angels...and so do we, as Christians, by our worship and how we live our lives.

In response to the question re: Adam needing to fall into sin, I would say no. Even if Adam had not been created, the angels would still be glorifying Him. God is glorified through His creation. God did not need Adam to sin in order to be glorified, but He is glorified through it, because He conquered sin and death on the cross, defeated Satan, and He is glorified because He is the only one who could have won this victory.

I don't think that God needed Adam to sin in order to be glorified, but this is how He chose to glorify Himself.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 22nd 2008, 08:14 PM
Oh, I agree completely with what you are saying. There was no other way to save mankind. The point I am making is that God, being God, wasn't obligated to save mankind. That's why Jesus said he could call 12 legions and God would send them. It would not have been sin for God to send 12 legions to destroy the world and set Jesus free. That's the point I am making. But because God is a God of love, Jesus did die! It was the only way to save me. Thank God he is a God of love!!!!

AMEN TO THAT!!!!! Isn't our God awesome?!



It HAD to happen that way for us to be saved.

I agree....if there had been any other way, I can't see the Lord Jesus allowing Himself to be put through all of that.


But God could have started all over with Jesus just like he offered to start all over with Moses and how he did start all over with Noah.

Yes, He could have.....but if you really think about it...If God had just annihilated the whole thing, and started from scratch, then He would have been conceding to the fact that Satan was successful in destroying mankind, and that there was nothing more that God could do to redeem it. This no doubt would be a sort of "victory" for Satan, something he could lay claim to.
Instead, God decided to completely upstage Satan's "victory." He did this in the presence of Himself, the angels, and us, when He died on the cross. THIS is how God was glorified through sin...by utterly defeating it.

The precise reason that Christ came and died was in order to defeat Satan and death. If God had decided to scratch the whole thing, and start over, He basically would have been conceding that Satan had some sort of victory....but because God is supreme, He glorified Himself by defeating Satan on His own turf, redeeming us, and basically kicking him to the curb.

shawn_2828
Feb 8th 2009, 04:58 AM
OK, before you blow a theological circuit... bear with me. :D

In the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus prayed the following...

Mark 14:34-37
34 And He said to them, "My soul is deeply grieved to the point of death; remain here and keep watch." 35 And He went a little beyond them, and fell to the ground, and began to pray that if it were possible, the hour might pass Him by. 36 And He was saying, "Abba! Father! All things are possible for Thee; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what Thou wilt."
NASB

Right there, Jesus said it was possible for God to do something different than having him die. There was another way! Jesus even confirmed it to Peter later.

Matt 26:52-53
52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. 53 "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
NASB

Jesus said he could have called legions of angels to come. What would they have done?

Well, let's look at another OT example.

Ex 32:9-14
9 And the Lord said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and behold, they are an obstinate people. 10 "Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them, and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation." 11 Then Moses entreated the Lord his God, and said, "O Lord, why doth Thine anger burn against Thy people whom Thou hast brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 "Why should the Egyptians speak, saying, 'With evil intent He brought them out to kill them in the mountains and to destroy them from the face of the earth'? Turn from Thy burning anger and change Thy mind about doing harm to Thy people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Thy servants to whom Thou didst swear by Thyself, and didst say to them, 'I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heavens, and all this land of which I have spoken I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.'" 14 So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
NASB

First, God was going to destroy Israel. He would have been justified in doing so. He could have started all over with Moses. Then he decided to let them live even though he chastised them. And he was justified in what he did. Whether he destroyed them or let them live, he was justified. He could do either or because he is God.

No, fast forward to the garden. Jesus did not have to die because God could have sent angels, at Christ request, to destroy the world and set him free. God would have been justified in doing so. He could have started all over again. He could have created another Adam and another Eve and sent all the others to hell and been completely justified.

BUT thank God, that he is a God of love. He did not do so, even though he could. But he loved man and was determined to save him. Because of this, Jesus went on to say...

Matt 26:53-55
53 "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 "How then shall the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen this way?"
NASB

God could have gone another way. But because he is love, it was his desire to save the world. God can do whatever he pleases. Thank God it pleased him to save us.

Actually, I don't think there was another way, because if you read in the old testament, the first sacrifice was made by God to cover Adam and Eves sin. So, as you read on, all through the OT innocent animals had to be killed because of our sin.

What Adam and Eve did broke fellowship with God, and the shedding of the animals blood was the only way that man could come before God or to even have a relationship with God. But only the priest could do the sacrifice. The people had to rely on the priest, but the priest also had to sacrafice animals to cover their sinful nature also. So, if the priest sinned, it brought judgment over everyone, because the priest was not perfect.

This is were Jesus came in.He was the perfect lamb who was not sinful, and he did not have to sacrifice an animal to cover his sin, he was perfect. Jesus was and is the perfect priest. He did not have to make atonement for himself. So, once he was sacrificed on the cross, our sins were forgiven.

How they were sacrificing in the OT was only set up to be used temporary. Because the OT forshadows Christ and what he was soon going to do.

So, if it was not for Christ, we would still have a broken fellowship with God, and we would have to rely on a sinful priest, who could only go before God once a year on our behalf.

So, I do think that Jesus had to die for us and I am so thankful that he did.

Because of what Jesus did, we can now go boldly to God.

tt1106
Feb 8th 2009, 01:20 PM
If Christ modeled the way of life for us...."pray this prayer".
How could he show us the resurrection, without dying.

Praise God, for his grand scheme.

Dani H
Feb 8th 2009, 02:24 PM
I think He had to.

Simply because love compelled Him. And for no other reason.

Drums4Him
Feb 8th 2009, 03:31 PM
I am not sure if there would have been a more perfect sacrifice for our sins than Jesus, who was sinless. We all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, so Jesus sacrifice on the cross was our sin debt.

By His Grace we have gained an eternal place in heaven

Brother Mark
Feb 8th 2009, 11:50 PM
I think He had to.

Simply because love compelled Him. And for no other reason.

Exactly. Love compelled him. He could have called angels to set him free. But he didn't because He loved His Father.

Dani H
Feb 9th 2009, 12:56 AM
Exactly. Love compelled him. He could have called angels to set him free. But he didn't because He loved His Father.

.... and you and me. :)

Partaker of Christ
Feb 9th 2009, 04:31 PM
Exactly. Love compelled him. He could have called angels to set him free. But he didn't because He loved His Father.

Hi Brother Mark!

After the fall of man, I don't believe there was any other way to save man.

Had Jesus called for the angels, and not gone to the cross, and laid His life down for us, would we say that His love is limited?

Scubadude
Feb 9th 2009, 08:39 PM
God could have gone another way. But because he is love, it was his desire to save the world. God can do whatever he pleases. Thank God it pleased him to save us.


Are you saying there was a lot more at stake than just redeeming fallen sinners? It's a very interesting thought that Jesus could have gone a different direction. Salvation really is a gift.

Denny606
Feb 11th 2009, 08:54 AM
I think he had to,He said himself for this end was I Born.And I also believe that God made a perfect plan of salvation,that was prophesied all through the OT.And at the beginning God saw the end,But mostly I am Thankful he did it for me before I was even born.