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divaD
Apr 18th 2008, 06:46 PM
The point of this thread, if there is any interest, is what obvious things take place that let's us know that the great trib has officially begun?

If the great trib officially began tommorrow at 12 noon, would we know it? If so, how would we know? What obvious things must transpire that tells us we're in the beginning of the great trib? I think from reading Scriptures, most things would be pretty obvious. Certain events would tell us that we're a quarter of the way thru, half way, etc. But what about the beginning? Will the beginning of the great trib be obvious? I guess that's what I'm really trying to ask.

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 07:06 PM
I believe it will be when Antichrist defiles the temple of God and declares himself to be God... that's when it will really get messy

Samir
Apr 18th 2008, 07:39 PM
Funny, a post on another board implied that we have 3 1/2 years to go in the tribulation, during which time Satan is loosed.

As far as the defiling of the temple (1) not everything that happens is in the news and (2) I am well aware that the temple in Jerusalem is not yet built.

So, your guess is as good as mine.

Samir

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 07:43 PM
Funny, a post on another board implied that we have 3 1/2 years to go in the tribulation, during which time Satan is loosed.

As far as the defiling of the temple (1) not everything that happens is in the news and (2) I am well aware that the temple in Jerusalem is not yet built.

So, your guess is as good as mine.

Samir

the temple rebuilding in Jerusalem won't be missed by the media. That's too big of an event... They will pounce on the story that plans for it even exist... lol

BrckBrln
Apr 18th 2008, 08:04 PM
I too think it's the Antichrist claiming to be God in the temple of God that will be the 'beginning'. But I don't really think the 'temple of God' is going to be a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. It could be but I also think it could be what Paul said elsewhere, that we as Christians are the 'temple of God'.

HisLeast
Apr 18th 2008, 08:23 PM
Something just occurred to me.

Aren't WE the temple now? So in the context of revelation, does "the temple" have to be of the brick & mortar variety?

ServantoftheKing
Apr 18th 2008, 08:38 PM
In Revelation 12, the dragon begins war on the woman (Israel) and she flies to a place in the wilderness for a time, times, and half a time (3.5 years). The serpent casts water as a flood out of his mouth to carry her away, but the flood is swallowed up by the earth opening. When the dragon sees this, he becomes angry and turns his attention to making war with the remnant of her seed (i.e. believers in Christ).

ServantoftheKing

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 08:58 PM
Something just occurred to me.

Aren't WE the temple now? So in the context of revelation, does "the temple" have to be of the brick & mortar variety?


unless you want a literal man sitting inside your chest declaring he is God....

BrckBrln
Apr 18th 2008, 09:07 PM
unless you want a literal man sitting inside your chest declaring he is God....

It wouldn't be like that. The AC would stand in the 'church' where all the 'temple's of God' are and proclaim himself as God. This is why so many people believed the Pope to be the AC among other things.

This doesn't mean there won't be a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem but I think at this moment it's more plausible to go with the spiritual 'temple of God' theory.

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 09:15 PM
It wouldn't be like that. The AC would stand in the 'church' where all the 'temple's of God' are and proclaim himself as God. This is why so many people believed the Pope to be the AC among other things.

This doesn't mean there won't be a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem but I think at this moment it's more plausible to go with the spiritual 'temple of God' theory.

Then why does it say that he sits in the temple of God and declare that he is God in 2 Thessalonians 2:4

The Pope is only acknowledged as the 'vicar' of Christ... he theologically doesn't say he is God but Christ's representation on earth but many Catholics come dangerously close...

BrckBrln
Apr 18th 2008, 09:26 PM
You got to stop thinking so literally. I mean literal interpretation is good but it can get carried way too far. I've read the AC is going to literally go in a rebuilt temple and physically sit on the Ark of the Covenant, assuming they find it. Why in the world would a man sit on the AOTC?

timmyb
Apr 18th 2008, 10:21 PM
You got to stop thinking so literally. I mean literal interpretation is good but it can get carried way too far. I've read the AC is going to literally go in a rebuilt temple and physically sit on the Ark of the Covenant, assuming they find it. Why in the world would a man sit on the AOTC?

then tell me how 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is symbolic? There is nothing hidden or mysterious about it... it says literally he will sit in the temple thus declaring himself to be God... the falling away is literal, the man of perdition is literal... why not his actions be the same...

Scripture isn't symbolic unless it specifically says so...

BrckBrln
Apr 18th 2008, 10:46 PM
then tell me how 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is symbolic? There is nothing hidden or mysterious about it... it says literally he will sit in the temple thus declaring himself to be God... the falling away is literal, the man of perdition is literal... why not his actions be the same...

Scripture isn't symbolic unless it specifically says so...

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I may be, I don't know) but doesn't every other time that Paul uses the phrase 'temple of God' or some variation of it, doesn't it mean us Christians and not a literal temple in Jerusalem? This would have to be the only case where it's literal and that's a big IF.

Sonshine
Apr 19th 2008, 01:36 AM
I have heard that the Jewish priest have all the parts of the temple, just waiting to erect it when they get the land back.

2Witnesses
Apr 19th 2008, 02:56 AM
The point of this thread, if there is any interest, is what obvious things take place that let's us know that the great trib has officially begun?

If the great trib officially began tommorrow at 12 noon, would we know it? If so, how would we know? What obvious things must transpire that tells us we're in the beginning of the great trib? I think from reading Scriptures, most things would be pretty obvious. Certain events would tell us that we're a quarter of the way thru, half way, etc. But what about the beginning? Will the beginning of the great trib be obvious? I guess that's what I'm really trying to ask.

Diva,

Hi! And yes, I think we will know when. Many think the 70th will begin when Israel signs an agreement with the AC concerning Israel's security. I am not one of these.

It is my understanding the 'covenant' has to do with the rebuilding of the temple and the re-institution of sacrifices.

And we will know of this because there will be much activity leading up to it. I mean, the Jews rebuilding a temple on the mount, where the Dome sits; beside it, or on the same spot!?

Besides, all those who are in the know, will recognize AC before he ever reveals himself mid-week.

And let me tell you this (without setting any dates regarding His return) now, before it happens. We will see AC within the next 7 years. So now is a time of preparation for the people of God.

2Witnesses

jeffweeder
Apr 19th 2008, 03:57 AM
Maybe Jesus answered the question already?;

I understand this to mean that at the time of Ad 70, when the Jews were dispersed, and led captive to the nations, that those days were the GT--days of vengeance, until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.



"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
23 "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.





Matt 24

"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

ross3421
Apr 19th 2008, 04:03 AM
The point of this thread, if there is any interest, is what obvious things take place that let's us know that the great trib has officially begun?

If the great trib officially began tommorrow at 12 noon, would we know it? If so, how would we know? What obvious things must transpire that tells us we're in the beginning of the great trib? I think from reading Scriptures, most things would be pretty obvious. Certain events would tell us that we're a quarter of the way thru, half way, etc. But what about the beginning? Will the beginning of the great trib be obvious? I guess that's what I'm really trying to ask.

What do you call the great trib? satan's wrath, God wrath (plagues) or something else?


This period will be kicked off by world chaos whereby out of the ashes will arise a kingdom to parrallel that of God's. A demonic conterfeit. The kick off begins with the following event....

Mt 24:7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Then Satan's wrath will be upon those which oppose him and his kingdom on earth. God wrath ie great tribulation (plagues) will start after this.....

Mt 24:15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


So you don't have to worry about the great tribulation until we see a WWW3 senerio.


Mark

Merton
Apr 19th 2008, 04:08 AM
The point of this thread, if there is any interest, is what obvious things take place that let's us know that the great trib has officially begun?

If the great trib officially began tommorrow at 12 noon, would we know it? If so, how would we know? What obvious things must transpire that tells us we're in the beginning of the great trib? I think from reading Scriptures, most things would be pretty obvious. Certain events would tell us that we're a quarter of the way thru, half way, etc. But what about the beginning? Will the beginning of the great trib be obvious? I guess that's what I'm really trying to ask.


Jesus returns to begin the great tribulation but you are asking for comments on the tribulation of the endtimes beginning.

You see the great tribulation is the time of Gods wrath--


Mat 24:21 For there will be great affliction, such as has not happened from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever will be.

Dan 12:1 And at that time, Michael shall stand up, the great ruler who stands for the sons of your people. And there shall be a time of distress, such as has not been from the being of a nation until that time. And at that time, your people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the Book.

The book of Daniel is speaking of Christ delivering His people from Babylon before its destruction in the 7th vial and most reading of the OT prophets speak of a deliverence of mortals physically from Babylon, that is they are gathered by angels, and on foot , carried by animals and even by ships.

This occurs during the time of great tribulation (and speaks of the great multitude of Rev.ch 7 and Isaiah ch 49) and we see in Mat.ch 24 that no flesh would be saved if the great tribulation continued on.

The tribulation of the saints is before Christ returns however and ends at His return, that is after the last preaching that the Kingdom of God is soon to come, and that occurs during the tribulation of the saints by the beast.

It is the beginning of this point of time which you are likely to be talking about.

Scripture in Mat.24 gives it as occuring after the beginning of sorrows has begun (also described in the seals 1-2-3.) at the delivering up of the saints to governments and so on, along with many a pretend saint, and others, who refuse compliance with the beast as seal 4 and on shows.


Mat 14:15 gives it that the disciple of Christ should flee Jerusalem as early as possible when recognising (Christ says to pray for that ability) the abomination of desolation.

Obviously the AOD is really an abomination which desolates the apostate churches old and new, (but not the faithfull who pray and know) that is the one who is coming who speaks against the God of Heaven, His Tabernacle (who is Christ ) and against His people (who are Christians) Rev.13


This can only be the enforcement of Jerusalem and elsewhere to comply with the wishes of the nations (Rev.11) who will insist on there being no more religious wars, neither that any religion should interfere in the affairs of another, not only in Jerusalem but throughout the world where mankind joins the beast kingdom of the worship of self, money and force, which is not a religion as such, though it really is, which enforces the worship and system of the empire king of kings or starve and be tortured and killed. (5th trumpet).

(The return of a Caesar)

So there is the beginning of the tribulation. (not the great tribulation)


Merton.

timmyb
Apr 19th 2008, 06:43 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I may be, I don't know) but doesn't every other time that Paul uses the phrase 'temple of God' or some variation of it, doesn't it mean us Christians and not a literal temple in Jerusalem? This would have to be the only case where it's literal and that's a big IF.

when he says 'temple of god' and it applies to the believers... he says 'you are the temple of god' but notice in 2 thess. 2:4 he says that the antichrist will sit IN the temple and declare he is God... he is obviously talking about a building because the MAN of perdition will be a MAN

Samir
Apr 19th 2008, 07:28 PM
The other interpretation from revelations 19 is that Jesus is the temple of the City, but again, the antichrist cannot sit IN it, same problem.

timmyb
Apr 19th 2008, 07:33 PM
The other interpretation from revelations 19 is that Jesus is the temple of the City, but again, the antichrist cannot sit IN it, same problem.

that's different... there were times when he referred to himself as the temple... but when a person sits in a place... that can only be a building... the antichrist has to put an end to sacrifice and offering... sacrifice and offering can only be accomplished by the rebuilding of the temple

Samir
Apr 19th 2008, 09:08 PM
As I said, many important events are unknown to us. Of course we can wait for the temple to be built, but we might have missed the rapture in the process. Another possibility....is there another temple? Most of us wont know the relevent events until the day is past.

divaD
Apr 19th 2008, 09:10 PM
Jesus returns to begin the great tribulation but you are asking for comments on the tribulation of the endtimes beginning.

You see the great tribulation is the time of Gods wrath--


Mat 24:21 For there will be great affliction, such as has not happened from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever will be.

Dan 12:1 And at that time, Michael shall stand up, the great ruler who stands for the sons of your people. And there shall be a time of distress, such as has not been from the being of a nation until that time. And at that time, your people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the Book.

The book of Daniel is speaking of Christ delivering His people from Babylon before its destruction in the 7th vial and most reading of the OT prophets speak of a deliverence of mortals physically from Babylon, that is they are gathered by angels, and on foot , carried by animals and even by ships.

This occurs during the time of great tribulation (and speaks of the great multitude of Rev.ch 7 and Isaiah ch 49) and we see in Mat.ch 24 that no flesh would be saved if the great tribulation continued on.

The tribulation of the saints is before Christ returns however and ends at His return, that is after the last preaching that the Kingdom of God is soon to come, and that occurs during the tribulation of the saints by the beast.

It is the beginning of this point of time which you are likely to be talking about.

Scripture in Mat.24 gives it as occuring after the beginning of sorrows has begun (also described in the seals 1-2-3.) at the delivering up of the saints to governments and so on, along with many a pretend saint, and others, who refuse compliance with the beast as seal 4 and on shows.


Mat 14:15 gives it that the disciple of Christ should flee Jerusalem as early as possible when recognising (Christ says to pray for that ability) the abomination of desolation.

Obviously the AOD is really an abomination which desolates the apostate churches old and new, (but not the faithfull who pray and know) that is the one who is coming who speaks against the God of Heaven, His Tabernacle (who is Christ ) and against His people (who are Christians) Rev.13


This can only be the enforcement of Jerusalem and elsewhere to comply with the wishes of the nations (Rev.11) who will insist on there being no more religious wars, neither that any religion should interfere in the affairs of another, not only in Jerusalem but throughout the world where mankind joins the beast kingdom of the worship of self, money and force, which is not a religion as such, though it really is, which enforces the worship and system of the empire king of kings or starve and be tortured and killed. (5th trumpet).

(The return of a Caesar)

So there is the beginning of the tribulation. (not the great tribulation)


Merton.




Merton, I had actually heard others say there was more than one trubulation so to speak. When I posted this thread, I never even considered that possibility tho. If the great trib is as you say, then the beginning of that should be pretty obvious. So with that in mind, I prefer this thread to be about the beginning of the first tribulaion that occurs, the one that those in Christ will go thru.
Also, will the wrath of God actually be a tribulation for the wicked? When the wrath of God was upon the wicked in Noah's day with the flood, was that actually defined as a tribulation, or was it simply the wrath of God upon those that refused to change? IOW, when the wrath of God began, it was already too late for those whom the wrath would be against. That's kind of the way I see it when Christ returns and His wrath is unleashed. It will be too late for many. But on the other hand, Rev tells us that when these plagues happened, they repented not. Perhaps that means that God was still giving them space to repent, but they refused. Looking at it like that, I can see it being a tribulation for the unsaved.

divaD
Apr 19th 2008, 09:15 PM
And let me tell you this (without setting any dates regarding His return) now, before it happens. We will see AC within the next 7 years. So now is a time of preparation for the people of God.

2Witnesses


2Witnesses, I believe it's going to occur soon too. Has something happened recently that leads you to believe this will occur within the next 7 years?

timmyb
Apr 19th 2008, 09:17 PM
2Witnesses, I believe it's going to occur soon too. Has something happened recently that leads you to believe this will occur within the next 7 years?

:note: date setting :note:

:thumbsdn:

Servant89
Apr 19th 2008, 09:29 PM
One day someone might do a better job than the pope on fulfilling this one.

According to 2The 2:4 the antichrist will sit in the temple of God showing himself that he is god.

When the Pope speaks from the chair of Peter in the temple of God in the Vatican (it is not the temple of Buda or Vishnu), the Catholic Church declares that he is infallible, free of error, like God. That only happens when he sits there. That is called speaking "EX CATEDRA" and it means literally speaking “from the chair". The Pope claims to have the same authority (infallibility) as Christ (see Mat 18:19; & Rev 13:2). Only God is infallible. In Matthew 16:20-23 Jesus rebuked Satan for trying to take the place of Christ through the person of Peter. He told him “get ye behind me”) to get back in line, (Jesus is number 1).

Jesus also taught the people sitting in the Temple (see Mat 26:55 and John 8:2). That is why Satan wants to teach sitting in the Temple of God.

This also is reflected in Isa 14:12-14 where we see Satan trying to be like the Most High and boasting that he will "exalt his throne above the stars of God, and will sit on top of the mount of the congregation". That phrase, “to sit on top of the mount of the congregation” means sitting on top of the church. The congregation is the Church. The Church is God’s body, His temple. The part that sits on top of the church (God's body, the true temple of the Holy Spirit) is the head, Jesus Christ. The head of the church is the one that sits on the temple of God. What a coincidence that the Pope also claims to be the head of the church, thus fulfilling the prophecy that the antichrist will sit in the temple of God as God in more than one way.

This is just one example in which prophecy could be fulfilled without having people notice.

Shalom

Kandaje
Apr 19th 2008, 09:31 PM
Greetings...

It's already begun...

I don't know about you, But my understanding is that the 5th Trumpet was sounded about a month ago. Abbadon is released - The Scorpions are already on the move... :eek: Maybe that's what was in Ratzingers luggage? LOL!!


Sorry - I had a very nasty nightmare about a month ago...
I'm not prone to nightmares - But this one was extremely disturbing...
I don't have a thing for scorpions either. Or the Catholic pope...

I won't go into details - But suffice to say that it involved some surealisticly disturbing imagry - Again, something that my dreams do not tend toward. involving the sound of a trumpet, myself and a woman I did not know getting swarmed by scorpions, and some luggage. I'd completely forgotten about it until just a few days ago when the Bad-News showed that vile creature stepping off the plane and a brief view of his luggage....

Probably doesnt mean anything. Just a bad dream....

2Witnesses
Apr 19th 2008, 10:25 PM
2Witnesses, I believe it's going to occur soon too. Has something happened recently that leads you to believe this will occur within the next 7 years?

Diva,

There is a time frame for the end of days in Psalm 119.

2Witnesses

divaD
Apr 19th 2008, 11:04 PM
:note: date setting :note:

:thumbsdn:




timmyb, could you define exactly what you mean by date setting? I obviously am not aware of the forum rules concerning this. Could you point me to those. I honestly don't understand how I was date setting, when all I asked was, if something has occured recently to lead one to believe the AC would appear within the next 7 yrs. I just don't see where a specific day and time was ever mentioned. The last thing I want to do is break forum rules. I try my best to abide by the rules that I'm aware of. So if I was date setting, it was totally unintentional.

Paul_born_again
Apr 20th 2008, 12:28 AM
What a coincidence that the Pope also claims to be the head of the church, thus fulfilling the prophecy that the antichrist will sit in the temple of God as God in more than one way.

Interesting take.

Reading your post reminded me of a clip I saw a couple days ago of the Pope's visit to the U.S. The news people were interviewing some people that came to see him, and a little girl said (paraphrasing) "Seeing [the Pope] was like seeing Jesus here on Earth". That sent shivers down my spine, and I pray that God would give the little girl's parents wisdom to correct her later. Even more scary is that I don't doubt that many people also think like this.

This is no offense to Catholics here. I'm sure that the vast majority do not believe this.

John146
Apr 20th 2008, 04:19 AM
unless you want a literal man sitting inside your chest declaring he is God....

The temple of God is also another term for the body of Christ as a whole (the church) as used in 2 Corinthians 6:16. Also, the church is referred to as a "holy temple in the Lord" in Ephesians 2:21.

timmyb
Apr 20th 2008, 02:40 PM
then explain how the AC sits IN the temple... the man of perdition, the man of sin... literally sitting in a 'temple'

Banzy
Apr 20th 2008, 03:37 PM
Well, first off, Paul doesn't mention an Antichrist in Thess. People have put an antichrist there, but Scritpure doesn't.

However, John says that antichrists went out from them. Where did they go out from? The church.

Paul has a falling away taking place. What are they falling away from. The church.

Question: Do deceived people think they are deceived? You can name many false prophets down through the centuries that declared that they were the true church, they were the only way. Look at Koresh, look at these people in Texas, look at this Ronald Weinland character and his church.

My point. The body of Christ, the church, is the temple of God. Its not some building that a Jewish people would rebuild. (Read Hebrews for an indepth study. It contrasts the old vs. the new.) Anyways, if a "man of sin" sits in the temple of God, he will think he is the true church.

timmyb
Apr 20th 2008, 04:15 PM
Well, first off, Paul doesn't mention an Antichrist in Thess. People have put an antichrist there, but Scritpure doesn't.

However, John says that antichrists went out from them. Where did they go out from? The church.

Paul has a falling away taking place. What are they falling away from. The church.

Question: Do deceived people think they are deceived? You can name many false prophets down through the centuries that declared that they were the true church, they were the only way. Look at Koresh, look at these people in Texas, look at this Ronald Weinland character and his church.

My point. The body of Christ, the church, is the temple of God. Its not some building that a Jewish people would rebuild. (Read Hebrews for an indepth study. It contrasts the old vs. the new.) Anyways, if a "man of sin" sits in the temple of God, he will think he is the true church.


3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202&version=50#fen-NKJV-29659b)] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that HE SITS AS GOD IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, showing himself that HE is God.

it's very clear that this a man... sitting in a literal temple building, scripture has made this very clear...

BrckBrln
Apr 20th 2008, 08:55 PM
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202&version=50#fen-NKJV-29659b)] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that HE SITS AS GOD IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, showing himself that HE is God.

it's very clear that this a man... sitting in a literal temple building, scripture has made this very clear...

You are taking things way to literally. When the verse says 'showing himself that he is God' does that mean that the Antichrist is, in fact, God?

timmyb
Apr 20th 2008, 09:53 PM
You are taking things way to literally. When the verse says 'showing himself that he is God' does that mean that the Antichrist is, in fact, God?

who else could it apply to?... the day of the Lord won't come until the Man of Sin is revealed... give me some scripture that could suggest that it applies to another person...

BrckBrln
Apr 20th 2008, 11:13 PM
who else could it apply to?... the day of the Lord won't come until the Man of Sin is revealed... give me some scripture that could suggest that it applies to another person...

You misunderstood me. I didn't say it wasn't the Antichrist in view in this verse. Of course it is. I was just saying, since you take everything literal to the max, then is the Antichrist God since he declares himself to be God?

timmyb
Apr 21st 2008, 06:56 PM
You misunderstood me. I didn't say it wasn't the Antichrist in view in this verse. Of course it is. I was just saying, since you take everything literal to the max, then is the Antichrist God since he declares himself to be God?

then what else could he be if not a literal man sitting in a literal temple... I don't see much spiritualization in the passage Paul is saying... he is quoting these things as literal events to come and things to be done by a literal man sitting in a literal temple

John146
Apr 21st 2008, 07:18 PM
then explain how the AC sits IN the temple... the man of perdition, the man of sin... literally sitting in a 'temple'

The Greek word for sit in that verse is kathizō (Strong's G2523). The word can mean both to literally sit down (to place one's rear end in a seat - hehe) or it can mean to take a place of power or it can mean to settle or dwell within.

The word is used here:

1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit (kathizō) in Moses' seat:
3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. - Matt 23:1-3

I hope you can agree that the scribes and the Pharisees were not all literally sitting in Moses' seat. It just means they had a place of power or authority over the Israelites just as Moses did.

The word is also used here:

49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry (kathizō) ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. - Luke 24:49

In this case, it means to stay or dwell in a certain location (within the city of Jerusalem).

This is how I believe it is used in 2 Thess 2. The man of sin dwells within or among the church (whether in our church buildings or other gatherings) claiming to be God (instead of the true God) and deceiving people to fall away from the faith by following "him" instead of the one true God.

The word is used here as well:

4If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set (kathizō) them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. - 1 Cor 6:4

In this case, the word is related to putting people in a place of power in the church. Similarly, I believe the man of sin gives himself a place of power within the church and deceives the people with his lies.

timmyb
Apr 21st 2008, 07:22 PM
but explain 2 Thessalonians 2:4 when Paul says that he sits in the temple and declares he is God... I really don't see any hermenutical way around that... Paul is telling of things to come... The Orthadox Jews would like nothing better than to have the opportunity to rebuild the temple.. and I think that has to be built because the abomination of desolation is the antichrist defiling the temple.

John146
Apr 21st 2008, 07:26 PM
but explain 2 Thessalonians 2:4 when Paul says that he sits in the temple and declares he is God... I really don't see any hermenutical way around that... Paul is telling of things to come... The Orthadox Jews would like nothing better than to have the opportunity to rebuild the temple.. and I think that has to be built because the abomination of desolation is the antichrist defiling the temple.

I did touch on that. The man of sin refers to the false teachers and prophets who make their way into our churches and claim that they have the truth and they should be followed rather than God. By doing this, they make themselves God because they teach that people don't need the God of the Bible but they need to follow them and their teachings instead.

timmyb
Apr 21st 2008, 07:32 PM
I did touch on that. The man of sin refers to the false teachers and prophets who make their way into our churches and claim that they have the truth and they should be followed rather than God. By doing this, they make themselves God because they teach that people don't need the God of the Bible but they need to follow them and their teachings instead.

Paul mentioned them separately... why did he mention a Man of Sin... False prophets had already arose even in Paul's day. So why did he mention the Man of Sin the Man of Perdition who claims himself as God?

So... with that said... what you're saying doesn't make any sense to me.

John146
Apr 21st 2008, 08:11 PM
Paul mentioned them separately... why did he mention a Man of Sin... False prophets had already arose even in Paul's day. So why did he mention the Man of Sin the Man of Perdition who claims himself as God?

So... with that said... what you're saying doesn't make any sense to me.

The man of sin does not have to refer to one man. I know that on the surface that's a difficult concept to grasp. But, I think it's easier to grasp if you consider the fact that the following passage is not referring to an individual "man of God".

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. - 2 Timothy 3:16-17

I'm sure you agree that "the man of God" in verse 17 is not referring to one particular man of God, but to people of God in general. I see the reference to "the man of sin" in a similar way. I believe the man of sin refers to all the false teachers and prophets that set themselves up in positions of power in the church and deceive people into falling away from the faith.

The "man of sin" is also called "that wicked". Look at the following passage:

12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. - 1 Cor 5:12-13

Does that passage refer to one particular "wicked person" or to wicked people in general? Clearly, it's referring to wicked people in general and that they should be "put away from among yourselves".

IPet2_9
Apr 21st 2008, 08:42 PM
I have always been under the impression that:

a) If you're Pre-trib, the trib starts with the Rapture.

b) If you're Post-Trib, it starts when you see the AoD sitting in the holy place (whatever that means).

quiet dove
Apr 21st 2008, 08:59 PM
I have always been under the impression that:

a) If you're Pre-trib, the trib starts with the Rapture.

b) If you're Post-Trib, it starts when you see the AoD sitting in the holy place (whatever that means).

I don't know about post trib, but I think some pre trib do believe it will start with the rapture, but not all of them. Pre trib does teach that the man of sin will not be "revealed" until after the rapture but that doesn't equal the GT beginning at the rapture.

resbmc
May 2nd 2008, 12:49 PM
not a believer in a 7 year period, but Lunke21:25 talks about how the seas and waves will roar, in the last 4 years, how many major hurricanes have hit, and 2 sunamis, and hearing about earthquakes almost weekly now, somewhere, someone has packed a snowball at the top of the mountain, has tossed it down, it is beginning to roll, and will get bigger and faster.

David Taylor
May 2nd 2008, 12:53 PM
not a believer in a 7 year period, but Lunke21:25 talks about how the seas and waves will roar, in the last 4 years, how many major hurricanes have hit, and 2 sunamis, and hearing about earthquakes almost weekly now, somewhere, someone has packed a snowball at the top of the mountain, has tossed it down, it is beginning to roll, and will get bigger and faster.

No major hurricanes since the 2005 seaon that brought Katrina, Rita, and Wilma. That one was a doozy; but 2006, 2007, and 2008 so far, have been some of the quietest, and least-severe on record. The 2006 and 7 season, not producing any Cat-3, 4, or 5 storms to hit the US mainland.

resbmc
May 4th 2008, 01:44 PM
about the typhoons that have hit, and nearly every week or 1-2 times a month, earthquakes, the trib, will be world wide, the Bible says the earth will be like labor pains, getting worse and worse, the pain and the earth knows the delivery of the Messiah is coming close.

Roelof
May 5th 2008, 11:59 AM
I too think it's the Antichrist claiming to be God in the temple of God that will be the 'beginning'. But I don't really think the 'temple of God' is going to be a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. It could be but I also think it could be what Paul said elsewhere, that we as Christians are the 'temple of God'.

It could be that the Antichrist will rule the One World Religion.

JesusMySavior
May 5th 2008, 05:12 PM
So you don't have to worry about the great tribulation until we see a WWW3 senerio.


Mark


Mark, the infancy of WWIII has already started. Every major, major war in history has dealt with Israel. As of now, everyone wants to wipe Israel off the map. Jews fear another holocaust. Signs are being shown everywhere, discoveries being made of ancient texts and physical remains of biblical truth. The 3rd WW is going to be over oil, and over Israel. What's in the papers right now? Exactly. Oil and Israel.

Plus, food shortages everywhere - in Kenya and Somalia, a loaf of bread can cost one's entire life savings right now. Nations are rising against each other. Threats are being sent to and fro across the globe that they will not hesitate to annihilate one another if they pull one false move.

That and the fact that there's revivals happening around the world for God's chosen and the Bride of Christ. The true church will be a city of light in the time of darkness, when everybody flocks to their anti-God teachings of antinomialism, self-holiness, and ones who seek to see the messiah but don't believe in Jesus. Those who are looking for a messiah in these times but refuse to take refuge in Jesus Christ our Lord will fall victim to the antichrist.

As Romans 8 says, anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him.

Therefore anyone who is not led by the Spirit will take the mark. If you're a sold-out Christian, pray and fast that you will not come into temptation or be shoved into the world's ways. Pray that you will follow the Spirit's guidance always. :pray:


That being said,

God bless you guys. :bounce:

JesusMySavior
May 5th 2008, 05:16 PM
about the typhoons that have hit, and nearly every week or 1-2 times a month, earthquakes, the trib, will be world wide, the Bible says the earth will be like labor pains, getting worse and worse, the pain and the earth knows the delivery of the Messiah is coming close.


Man I can't tell you how many times I have been able to describe the natural disasters in the past 7-8 years as labor pains.

Jesus was not hiding anything when He said they would be like labor pains. At first they are less intense and far apart. As time progresses however, they get more intense and happen more frequently.

I think Katrina was one of those more painful contractions... plus that Tsunami that happened in '04. But we're seeing weird weather patterns all around the globe.

And get this - a few members of our worship team have mentioned that they feel something in their spirit that God is going to be "birthing" something soon. Haha, I love it!

JesusMySavior
May 5th 2008, 05:19 PM
It could be that the Antichrist will rule the One World Religion.

I personally think, and I could be wrong, that the one world religion is going to be spawned from what oprah is currently doing now.

"I'm holy, I can get into heaven, I'm good enough"...plus, churches that teach "God has no wrath and you can do whatever you want and get to heaven" are pretty popular these days.

yoSAMite
May 5th 2008, 05:35 PM
The point of this thread, if there is any interest, is what obvious things take place that let's us know that the great trib has officially begun?

If the great trib officially began tommorrow at 12 noon, would we know it? If so, how would we know? What obvious things must transpire that tells us we're in the beginning of the great trib? I think from reading Scriptures, most things would be pretty obvious. Certain events would tell us that we're a quarter of the way thru, half way, etc. But what about the beginning? Will the beginning of the great trib be obvious? I guess that's what I'm really trying to ask.
From a pre-trib viewpoint, I don't believe we'll be present at the midpoint of Daniel's future 70th week, which I also think is the beginning of the Great Tribulation. I also think that on that particular day 2 events will take place that will leave no doubt as to it's importance. The first will be the killing of the 2 witnesses and the second will be forthcoming Abomination of Desolation, when the AC declares himself god.

DurbanDude
May 5th 2008, 05:49 PM
Jesus said 'when you see the abomination .....' in Matthew 24

sudds
May 6th 2008, 09:20 PM
The tribulation as indicated by Jesus and mentioned by John in Rev 7:14 has already happened. It happened in the spiritual world when Jesus was turned over to sin for 3 days. (Spiritually) Think about it....If no angel or no created being knew the exact redemptive plan of God....these spiritual beings (people and angels) had to be in a distressed situation, because their only hope of salvation was dead (spiritually).

Hebrews 11:39. These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised.
Hebrews 11:40. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

In view of verse 40, When were they (godly saints living and dying before the cross) "made perfect?" answer, when Jesus was resurrected. Before that time, they were unsaved....it took the blood of Jesus to save everyone. Of course we (living on this side of the cross) are made spiritually perfect when we accept Christ and are baptized.

John saw these godly saints that lived and died before the cross.

Revelation 7:13. Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"
Revelation 7:14. I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Another passage that hints at the fact that the tribulation has already occurred.

Revelation 12:12. Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."

Concerning the above verse.....what occasion happened that would cause the heavenly dwellings to rejoice?

Therefore, I'm not at all worried about a biblical tribulation, because it has already happened.

jeffweeder
May 9th 2008, 06:33 AM
Did not Jesus tell us when the great Trib / days of vengeance started?

Whether you read Luke or Matthew, the GT /DOV are the same.

It doesnt appear that this period is for the Church, but he seemed to be saying that the GT/ DOV -was to do with the Jews being exiled , the land- and the time of the gentiles-over Jerusalem,eventually being fulfilled.


[/QUOTE]

lk 21

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
23 "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


matt 24
"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

This was the sign for the end of tribulation and the coming of Christ through the disintegrating heaverns.

lk 21 cont


[QUOTE]
25 "There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
27 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
28 "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Roelof
May 9th 2008, 12:35 PM
I have heard that the Jewish priest have all the parts of the temple, just waiting to erect it when they get the land back.

To whom does the land for the temple belong to now?

resbmc
May 9th 2008, 07:47 PM
it seems funny to me how some forget to read what Daniel said, he said the abomination will be set up. It is not a particular act, but something being built, that was the Dome of the Rock, built on, they thought for 1400 years, Solomons temple, but recently found out it was built on the Court of the Gentiles, where Daniel said it would be built, on the WING of the temple. The abomination happen, and the moslems almost conquered all of Europe, thanks to the King of Spain who finally defeated the Moslems. From Daniel 7 and 12 and to 1948 and 1967 was 2500 years and in the middle of those 2500 years in 600 something AD, the Dome was Built, in the middle of the week, a jewish year being 360 X 7 equals 2520, the 2500 plus the 20 years between the two books of Daniel.

JesusMySavior
May 19th 2008, 09:49 PM
The tribulation as indicated by Jesus and mentioned by John in Rev 7:14 has already happened. It happened in the spiritual world when Jesus was turned over to sin for 3 days. (Spiritually) Think about it....If no angel or no created being knew the exact redemptive plan of God....these spiritual beings (people and angels) had to be in a distressed situation, because their only hope of salvation was dead (spiritually).

Hebrews 11:39. These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised.
Hebrews 11:40. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

In view of verse 40, When were they (godly saints living and dying before the cross) "made perfect?" answer, when Jesus was resurrected. Before that time, they were unsaved....it took the blood of Jesus to save everyone. Of course we (living on this side of the cross) are made spiritually perfect when we accept Christ and are baptized.

John saw these godly saints that lived and died before the cross.

Revelation 7:13. Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"
Revelation 7:14. I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Another passage that hints at the fact that the tribulation has already occurred.

Revelation 12:12. Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."

Concerning the above verse.....what occasion happened that would cause the heavenly dwellings to rejoice?

Therefore, I'm not at all worried about a biblical tribulation, because it has already happened.



If what you say is true, then Jesus would have already stopped Armageddon, set up His Kingdom, and the world would be without sin. But obviously that is NOT the case.


The closest answer I can get to knowing that the tribulation is coming is that the generations of the world are acting like the people in Noah's time. THAT'S how we know Jesus is coming soon (among numerous other things).

Do some prophecy study and you might find some interesting things. :idea: