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TADAMS86
Apr 18th 2008, 10:47 PM
I think the whore of Babylon comes from the USA or, It is the USA. Think about it. Babylon is in Iraq, the US is at war with Iraq. If the war ended today, the USA won't just pick up and leave, they would rebuilt, making Babylon the capital of Iraq, cause that's where the false prophet, which I believe is the pope, is going to move his headquarters to.

During the rebuild process, either the USA is going to oversee and input there own ideas or someone from the USA.That someone I think is, Condoleezza Rice. Another meaning for whore is a person that turns to idol worship. Jerusalem is condemned for her injustice, Isa 1:21-23, 'she who was once faithful has become a harlot'. Worshipping other gods is likened to prostitution, Exo 34:14-17, Lev 17:6-7. Idolatry is also prostitution, Lev 17:6-7, Ezek 16:17, 23:49.

Condoleezza Rice Father Reverend John Wesley Rice, Jr., is a Presbyterian minister so, you know there's a good chance Condoleezza grew up in the church knowing about the Lord. But here's where it gets very suspicious, leading me to think she could be the "whore of Babylon"

During George W. Bush's 2000 U.S.Presidential election campaign Condoleezza rice led a group of advisors. The Group she led called itself The Vulcans in honor of a Roman Idol God. There's also a huge statue of a Vulcan in her hometown.

That doesn’t sit right with me. The USA has “In God We trust all over its money” They say “God bless America” now I’m wondering which god are they talking about. The true God (The god of Abraham and Moses) or that Roman Idol False God? Did the USA worship the Real god and then secretly turned to this false idol God? Rice grew up in the church, then she leads a group name after a roman Idol god. Most say that the Antichirst will lead a revised roman empire.

She lead a group called The vulcans in honor of a roman idol god, he's going to lead a revised roman empire. The antichirst will decieve isreal into signing a 7 year false peace treaty, and Rice is pushing for a peace treaty.

So, I don't know is it the USA, or Condolezza, or both? What do you guys think?

menJesus
Apr 18th 2008, 11:09 PM
Hello, TADAMS86, and welcome to the forum! FYI: the EU and the Iraqi Tourism people are itching to complete the rebuilding of Babylon, that Saddam Hussein began. The two groups believe it will be a huge tourist attraction, raking in millions...

I don`t believe C. Rice and her group would name themselves after such a controversial figure, as the political blow-up over it would just not be worth all the headaches...

And I don`t believe the US is the whore of Babylon, because the US is not in the area of the world that is going to be the arena for the end-time occurances.

Anyway, welcome... and carry on!

Samir
Apr 19th 2008, 12:51 AM
George Bush's skull and bones society I believe also worshipped Greco-Roman Gods, but I still believe he is a true Christian.

It is false to say that the final conflicts wont involve the US, since the anti-christ wants to have a world government, it must involve the US.

timmyb
Apr 19th 2008, 06:46 PM
It really doesn't matter who we think the WOB is or when it will happen.... focus on Jesus TADAMS86... we really lose track when we bother ourselves with things too big for us... let's see what the Bible says about the end times and let's watch what GOD is doing... keep in mind study on the End Times is about JESUS and his role as a Judge and conquering king

Banzy
Apr 19th 2008, 08:44 PM
Just another person trying to trash America. Why is that? This country has helped Evangelize more of the world than any other. This country is based on Godly principles and has become the greatest country ever because of its freedoms and principles. So why do people trash America? Is it jealousy, is it envy, I don't know, but I do know its totally incorrect.

America is Mystery Babylon, Condaleeza Rice is the whore of Babylon. How comes my post which had 100% facts in it get deleted and this garbage is allowed?

Anyway...To the point. Who was Mystery Babylon. Well if you let Scripture interpret Scripture and not newspaper exegisis, the answer is pretty obvious.

Read the last couple of chapters in Revelation. It contrasts 2 cities. Both are arrayed with gold and precious stones. Both are Jerusalem, the old one, and the new. Read Rev. 18 especially verses 20-24. Some are almost exact descriptions that the Old Testament prophets used to describe Jerusalem.

But let me point out the very last thing that is said about this Mystery Babylon and then what Jesus said concerning Jerusalem.

What Rev says: "And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth." Rev. 18:24

Now, what Jesus said: "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, THAT ON YOU MAY COME ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD SHED ON THE EARTH....O, JERUSALEM, JERUSALEM, THE ONE WHO KILLS THE PROPHETS AND STONES THOSE SENT TO HER..." Matt.23: 34-37

And Jesus said that the generation living would see the destruction of it. Did that happen, of course it did. So whats the problem, why do others think its America, or the pope, or the Catholic church or Washington D.C. or New York City, or a rebuilt Babylon, or, or, or, or, or, or...Its because of their eschatalogical view. It couldn't be Jerusalem because they have to have this Mystery fill their endtime view.

But no other city, nation, place, person can fulfill what the verses actually say about Mystery Babylon like Jerusalem could.

timmyb
Apr 19th 2008, 09:05 PM
My point is...

Does it really matter that we know the whore of Babylon now? We will know when it's time. When our study of the end times becomes a study to identify the Whore of Babylon then we miss the point by so many long shots. I see so many threads about who the whore of Babylon and knowing the four beasts of Daniel and identifying the Antichrist when the 'real' subject of the end times is Jesus' return... everything else is a sign leading up to that big event... It's foolishness to try to use the Bible and pin a title on a person/locale when the Bible really says to WATCH and PRAY... meaning watch God and pray for understanding of the time and season in which you're living...

Samir
Apr 19th 2008, 09:16 PM
if we are conjecturing,

I might mention that San Francisco sits on seven hills.

timmyb
Apr 19th 2008, 09:19 PM
if we are conjecturing,

I might mention that San Francisco sits on seven hills.

believe me any city could easily fit the prophecies of being the Whore of Babylon... It will come when it will come... let's stop trying to think ahead of God... let's be faithful with what light that we have

Kandaje
Apr 19th 2008, 09:51 PM
Greetings...

The Whore of Babylon is Oil (petroleum) Or rather it is today - The meaning changes over time...

Think about it...

menJesus
Apr 19th 2008, 10:22 PM
Are we speculating here? The city of Cincinnati also sits on seven hills! :o

Banzy
Apr 20th 2008, 03:28 PM
Timmyb, it does matter. Why? Because its been literally and historically fulfilled. And if it has been fulfilled, then we can identify it. Then others would have to break down their end time theories because they wouldn't fit.

timmyb
Apr 20th 2008, 04:13 PM
Timmyb, it does matter. Why? Because its been literally and historically fulfilled. And if it has been fulfilled, then we can identify it. Then others would have to break down their end time theories because they wouldn't fit.

but my point is this hasn't been fulfilled... because the whore precedes the rise of the AC... This is a specific END of the END TIMES prophecy... we are in the last days.. it began with the resurection... this is talking about the last of the last days... we are close but not there yet..

Banzy
Apr 20th 2008, 05:23 PM
Trust me, timmyb, I understand your point.

Your point: Still in the future

My point: Literally and historically fulfilled

Your point is why we still have guesses, which is what I call newspaper exegisis. People read the newspaper, see stories, and guess.(ie, USA, Rome, Catholic Church, D.C., New York, rebuilt Babylon, etc. etc. etc.)

My point is that I can read and have Scripture interpret Scripture and have Jerusalem as the Whore of Babylon. Then I can see that its destruction in A.D. 70 literally fulfilled the prophecy.

But as I say, you can continue to guess. That is entirely up to you.

ChristineMarie
Apr 20th 2008, 07:43 PM
speculating....:hmm:

Istanbul "Constantinople" has 7 hills. Anyone want to Discuss Turkey?

menJesus
Apr 20th 2008, 07:59 PM
I can`t right now, I`m trying to figure out who this "whore" is... ;)

I go aGoogling... :idea:

menJesus
Apr 20th 2008, 08:11 PM
Alright, then. A definite definition of the word "whore", as it is used in the Bible, would be a good place to go to...

It seems to me like a whore is referring to someone who would have congress with any tempting thing that comes along, irregardless of the amount - or lack - of commitment involved.

timmyb
Apr 20th 2008, 09:55 PM
Trust me, timmyb, I understand your point.

Your point: Still in the future

My point: Literally and historically fulfilled

Your point is why we still have guesses, which is what I call newspaper exegisis. People read the newspaper, see stories, and guess.(ie, USA, Rome, Catholic Church, D.C., New York, rebuilt Babylon, etc. etc. etc.)

My point is that I can read and have Scripture interpret Scripture and have Jerusalem as the Whore of Babylon. Then I can see that its destruction in A.D. 70 literally fulfilled the prophecy.

But as I say, you can continue to guess. That is entirely up to you.

i'm not guessing... that's the problem... My point is I will know when it's time... I'm not going to waste my time on some witch hunt when the Bible makes it clear that it will be right in front of our faces when it does show up

dan
Apr 20th 2008, 10:53 PM
I think the whore of Babylon comes from the USA or, It is the USA. Think about it. Babylon is in Iraq, the US is at war with Iraq. If the war ended today, the USA won't just pick up and leave, they would rebuilt, making Babylon the capital of Iraq, cause that's where the false prophet, which I believe is the pope, is going to move his headquarters to.

So, I don't know is it the USA, or Condolezza, or both? What do you guys think?


...Read a little further, the Bible will tell you:

REV 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

wombat
Apr 21st 2008, 02:26 PM
I think the whore of Babylon comes from the USA or, It is the USA.

Hi! I have a couple of theories about Mystery Babylon. One of my theories is that, as you suggest, the U.S. may be Mystery Babylon. The other theory is that the E.U. may be Mystery Babylon. First, here is what we know from the Bible. Revelations says Mystery Babylon sits on many waters, which are peoples of different tongues, etc., and she is the lead nation of the world. She lives luxuriously and her merchants are great men in the world. She is filled with music and craftsmen and mills. Jeremiah says she is a great center of commerce and is abundant in treasure. Isaiah says she is a pleasure-crazy kingdom, living at ease, feeling secure, and bragging that she is the greatest in the world, self-sufficient. Isaiah also says that her wisdom caused her to turn away from God, which seems to indicate that she was once a follower of God. Now she is filled with immorality. These descriptions certainly sound like the United States. On the other hand, these things can also be said of Europe. I've read a lot of information about the EU's coins that show Europa (a woman) riding a bull (a beast), which is also a prevalent picture on stamps, in state buildings, etc. The EU motto is "Many tongues, one voice", which is also on a famous poster showing the tower of Babel. This poster shows a crane in the background that is rebuilding the tower. There is a huge replica of the tower of Babel in the parliament building in Strasbourg, too. People call it "Eurobabel." Lots to think about here! I hope this is helpful.

AliveinChristDave
Apr 21st 2008, 03:45 PM
God began showing me how American and it's allies will be involved in the end time years ago. I still don't see it all and actually can't see it all. I think many things God just gives us the ability to see while they're happening and not until then.
Mystery Babylon is America and Great Britain. They're two peas in the same pod. Recently London just passed NYC as the leading center of finance in the world. Our money fuels the beast which is big business and the commerce that goes along with it. The goal of the beast (big business) is to control the world. For the past 30 plus years we've had leaders bent on giving the beast all the power it wants. For the past 7 we've had an administration owned by big business and multinational corporations.
So much emphasis is put on the mark of the beast. I think microchip implants will be a part of it but the mark is control. No one will be able to participate in commerce unless they have the mark. That means they will have to have their permission to buy and sell. For us average workers, we're going to be doing a day's work for a days supply of food. They will probably keep tabs of our work (I'm speaking in general here because many of us who see this thing coming will escape through the power and wisdom of God) through computer technology which will involve microchips. Already labor camps are being built all across America for this purpose and all who refuse to enter the camps will be killed. We're seeing so much of this taking place now. CEO's and presidents of large companies will fire thousands of people to save money and increase the quarterly profit all the while giving themselves millions of dollars in bonuses. The rich will continue to get richer and the poor will continue to suffer and suffer until there is nothing but the extreme wealth and the dirt poor.
But in the end God will intervene and all will fall in one day. All the ships that dot the long coast lines will sit still. No more trade with China, no more oil imports, no more Walmart's and Exxon's. All will stand afar off and say "Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, "
Destruction will come. God will even the score. His balances are true. The whore will be judged.
Thank God He tells us to "come out from her" in Chapter 18:4)
Most so called Christians won't do that though. '
Why?
Because we don't heed II Corinthians 6:17 that tells us now to come out from among them (the world) and be separate.
Deliverance is in holiness and righteousness. Unless we hear God's calling today (and I'm not talking about the call to receive Christ) to be holy and righteous and separate then we won't hear that call in Rev. 18.
Way too many have the idea that they're going to be delivered from all this when in reality they're deceived.

dan
Apr 21st 2008, 09:45 PM
...UN becomes more powerful, New York City will be the obvious choice for the "Whore".
The man that runs the UN, at that time, will be the second beast, perhaps.

The UN has declared privately owned weapons a threat to the civil rights of all the peoples of all the countries that allow them. In effect, this will, if taken to their desired extreme, outlaw self-defense, and help fulfill at least two Prophecies:

JER 6:22 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, a people cometh from the north country, and a great nation shall be raised from the sides of the earth.
JER 6:23 They shall lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel, and have no mercy; their voice roareth like the sea; and they ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion.

REV 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

...Maybe even a third...

AMOS 9:10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.

Wait and watch!

timmyb
Apr 23rd 2008, 01:10 AM
any city/organization could easily be the whore... even the podunk towns of Mississippi and Alabama could be the whore of Babylon for all we know... great city could apply to just about any metropolitan area in the world... EXCEPT Jerusalem

quiet dove
Apr 23rd 2008, 01:23 AM
any city/organization could easily be the whore... even the podunk towns of Mississippi and Alabama could be the whore of Babylon for all we know... great city could apply to just about any metropolitan area in the world... EXCEPT Jerusalem

Jerusalem is not podunk anyway. :lol:

timmyb
Apr 23rd 2008, 12:26 PM
Jerusalem is not podunk anyway. :lol:

i said metropolitan before jerusalem and jerusalem is not the whore of babylon...:D

John68
Apr 23rd 2008, 01:31 PM
Greetings...

The Whore of Babylon is Oil (petroleum) Or rather it is today - The meaning changes over time...

Think about it...
Maybe oil is the wine that she is drunk on. The US is the whore and the beast OAPEC ?:hmm:

danield
Apr 23rd 2008, 02:26 PM
I think the whore of Babylon comes from the USA or, It is the USA. Think about it. Babylon is in Iraq, the US is at war with Iraq. If the war ended today, the USA won't just pick up and leave, they would rebuilt, making Babylon the capital of Iraq, cause that's where the false prophet, which I believe is the pope, is going to move his headquarters to.

During the rebuild process, either the USA is going to oversee and input there own ideas or someone from the USA.That someone I think is, Condoleezza Rice. Another meaning for whore is a person that turns to idol worship. Jerusalem is condemned for her injustice, Isa 1:21-23, 'she who was once faithful has become a harlot'. Worshipping other gods is likened to prostitution, Exo 34:14-17, Lev 17:6-7. Idolatry is also prostitution, Lev 17:6-7, Ezek 16:17, 23:49.

Condoleezza Rice Father Reverend John Wesley Rice, Jr., is a Presbyterian minister so, you know there's a good chance Condoleezza grew up in the church knowing about the Lord. But here's where it gets very suspicious, leading me to think she could be the "whore of Babylon"

During George W. Bush's 2000 U.S.Presidential election campaign Condoleezza rice led a group of advisors. The Group she led called itself The Vulcans in honor of a Roman Idol God. There's also a huge statue of a Vulcan in her hometown.

That doesn’t sit right with me. The USA has “In God We trust all over its money” They say “God bless America” now I’m wondering which god are they talking about. The true God (The god of Abraham and Moses) or that Roman Idol False God? Did the USA worship the Real god and then secretly turned to this false idol God? Rice grew up in the church, then she leads a group name after a roman Idol god. Most say that the Antichirst will lead a revised roman empire.

She lead a group called The vulcans in honor of a roman idol god, he's going to lead a revised roman empire. The antichirst will decieve isreal into signing a 7 year false peace treaty, and Rice is pushing for a peace treaty.

So, I don't know is it the USA, or Condolezza, or both? What do you guys think?


I have to agree with you that America is the Babylon that is talked about in the bible. It has so many characteristics clearly outlined in Rev 17. I also think the name the “whore of Babylon” says a lot in that it is not a city with in Babylon But a “City” or a “City State” that has a relationship with Babylon for a profit. The only reason a prostitute has a relationship with someone is for money, and the Middle East is rich with black gold. We have to have that energy to drive our economy, so the protection of that region is paramount for any president that comes to office.

However I think there are two very important parts of Revelation that should be mentioned. One being that people associate the AC with Babylon because he is the eighth ruler. Well in Rev 19 the great battle of all the lands happen after Babylon has fallen. And this ruler still has enough army to fight one of the biggest battles the world has ever seen after Babylon falls. So the AC or the 8th king of Babylon has to have origin of influence outside the Whore of Babylon. The 8th king and his 10 rulers he empowers over Babylon is the revelation of the beast.

And the other point is the first seven kings are not particularly evil in Rev 17. They just have the sinful relationship with Babylon as a prostitute. I do not think that Bush or Rice are the beast that is talked about as the AC. They are not part of a world domination movement. They are trying to stop terrorism so their cause is not entirely unjust. I am not certain that they have not been influenced by some very bad advisors, but never the less it is what it is. We are and will be very active in the Middle East for some time. It does not matter which president comes to office, they will have an interest in that area.

I think many put weight into a united Europe Babylon or a Catholic Church as Babylon, but I can see so many holes in those point of views. But time will tell, and until then it all makes for interesting reading!

danield
Apr 23rd 2008, 02:33 PM
Maybe oil is the wine that she is drunk on. The US is the whore and the beast OAPEC ?:hmm:

I think the Wine is the sinful living not oil. The oil is the payment to the prostitute for protection. I have thought about OPEC as the 10 kings, but it just doesn’t add up just yet. So it either will change in the future or is all together not the organization of the 10 kings that the beast puts in charge of Babylon.

John68
Apr 23rd 2008, 04:53 PM
I think the Wine is the sinful living not oil. The oil is the payment to the prostitute for protection. I have thought about OPEC as the 10 kings, but it just doesn’t add up just yet. So it either will change in the future or is all together not the organization of the 10 kings that the beast puts in charge of Babylon. You might be right. BTW I wrote OAPEC not OPEC. OAPEC is a much smaller group around ten members I think.

DanDMan64
Apr 23rd 2008, 06:13 PM
That's my short answer, for the long answer click on my user name and look at all my posts on this question on the thread I started on "Where's the US in Bible prophesy" where I clearly state I believe that the Roman Catholic Church is Babylon the whore. :rolleyes:.

danield
Apr 23rd 2008, 07:14 PM
You might be right. BTW I wrote OAPEC not OPEC. OAPEC is a much smaller group around ten members I think.

Wow I did not know that this organization existed. It would be even more interesting if Iran was a part of this group. You never know it may be added in the future. But that is a very interesting organization. Thanks for the heads up on my stupidity.

White Spider
Apr 23rd 2008, 07:24 PM
So, I don't know is it the USA, or Condolezza, or both? What do you guys think?


Well I personally believe the whore is the Catholic church as a woman often symbolizes a church and the whore would mean an impure church. This would also go along with your thought of the Pope.

Cheers, hope that helps :)

Edit: Looking at other posts people seem to think Babylon is America from our current position of power, but I would suggest looking at the Catholic Church and it's power, how many people turned out for the Popes visit? Does a U.S. president have that kind of power?

resbmc
Apr 24th 2008, 01:31 PM
Rev 17:7 says the beast carries the harlot, but in Rev 17:16 the beast then hates the harlot, I can possible see Iraq's army falling in one hour-15 days, and after that the beast hates the harlot, Iraq, could it be since Saddam's army fell, the beast hates the harlot, all the extremist of Islam killing anyone they can in Iraq, and around the world, who worship the false prophet - ? -Mohammad, who want to kill God's two wittnesses - ? - Christians and Jews, and not just in Iraq, but around the world.

IPet2_9
Apr 24th 2008, 01:36 PM
Jerusalem is the harlot (as described in Hosea), America is part of the beast carrying the harlot, the beast hates the harlot.

dan
Apr 25th 2008, 03:10 PM
Well I personally believe the whore is the Catholic church as a woman often symbolizes a church and the whore would mean an impure church. This would also go along with your thought of the Pope.

Cheers, hope that helps :)

Edit: Looking at other posts people seem to think Babylon is America from our current position of power, but I would suggest looking at the Catholic Church and it's power, how many people turned out for the Popes visit? Does a U.S. president have that kind of power?

...Problem with that is the feeling that Radical Islam is becoming more upset with Christianity lately. I think that it is possible that the Pope may be targeted for assassination, again, by the same ones that tried before.
Remember Ali Agca?

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=Ali+Agca&gwp=13

In case they don't mention it, the Bulgarians were used by the Russians to arrange assassinations on several occasions.

White Spider
Apr 25th 2008, 05:48 PM
...Problem with that is the feeling that Radical Islam is becoming more upset with Christianity lately. I think that it is possible that the Pope may be targeted for assassination, again, by the same ones that tried before.
Remember Ali Agca?

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=Ali+Agca&gwp=13

In case they don't mention it, the Bulgarians were used by the Russians to arrange assassinations on several occasions.

I don't see the problem, in fact the attempt on Pope John Paul II only helps the argument . . .

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. - Revelation 13:3

Rome is also considered the city of seven hills . . .

And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. - Revelation 17:9

And remember that . . .

And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The beast is dead and comes back, so it must be someone who is dead. Now this is just some peoples belief and this line of logic takes for granted that the head that was wounded is the same one that comes back. There is no scripture clarifying which head of the beast is being talked about at anytime so there is no way of being certain, but that's more of the argument of the beast being a Pope and more specifically John Paul II.

(All verses from the King James Version)

I hope that doesn't cross the lines of naming people as beasts/AC . . . I am merely trying to show what some people believe and the evidence they use.

timmyb
Apr 25th 2008, 05:53 PM
I don't think we need to try to find out the Whore of Babylon right now.... all we have is one big eschatological conspiracy wall and all this is going to do is take us off the main focus of studying the End Times... people lose their salvation over this kind of thing...

IPet2_9
Apr 25th 2008, 06:11 PM
people lose their salvation over this kind of thing...

If Jerusalem got destroyed in one hour, do you seriously think no one would lose their salvation over that? Quite the opposite: everyone thinks Jerusalem is all wonderful and God will protect it. Once Jerusalem is gone, their faith is gone.

I'd say this discussion is very much justified, because our faith is to be in JESUS CHRIST. Everyone is far better off if that realization is reached BEFORE the object of their faith is gone.

DanDMan64
Apr 25th 2008, 07:03 PM
If Jerusalem got destroyed in one hour, do you seriously think no one would lose their salvation over that? Quite the opposite: everyone thinks Jerusalem is all wonderful and God will protect it. Once Jerusalem is gone, their faith is gone.

I'd say this discussion is very much justified, because our faith is to be in JESUS CHRIST. Everyone is far better off if that realization is reached BEFORE the object of their faith is gone.Hey IPet2_9, I'd be careful if I were you, this comments of yours sound a bit like "antisemitism" to me. I don't know what denomination or "teacher" you have been listening to that would so totally twist the scriptures in such a way that would make you believe this view which to me is bordering on heresy, but I would ask you to prayerfully consider reading through Romans 11 before you go knocking down Jerusalem, and by implication the Jewish people, of being the focus of God's wrath. I assure you that's not the case, as stated there on verses 25 and 28:
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.:mad:

timmyb
Apr 25th 2008, 07:44 PM
If Jerusalem got destroyed in one hour, do you seriously think no one would lose their salvation over that? Quite the opposite: everyone thinks Jerusalem is all wonderful and God will protect it. Once Jerusalem is gone, their faith is gone.

I'd say this discussion is very much justified, because our faith is to be in JESUS CHRIST. Everyone is far better off if that realization is reached BEFORE the object of their faith is gone.

Jesus needs to be the focus of studying the End Times...

the same scriptures you are using to prove that Jerusalem is the WOB are the same scriptures everybody else is using to prove their candidate...

I'm saying that this is dangerous... we need to have faith in the Bible and not try to put words into the Word of God and be faithful with it... nowhere in the Bible does it say who it is, or where it is, just what to look for... and if we are looking for the signs... we will know that it is near... instead of looking for the big thing... let's look at our proverbial fig tree and know the seasons in which all will be revealed...

HE WHO TOUCHES ISRAEL TOUCHES THE APPLE OF GOD'S EYE!... i would listen to DanDMan if i were you... there is no way God will allow the apple of his eye to become the very anthesis of harlotry... God has not repented of his calling to Israel. for the giftings and callings of God are irrevocable... Israel may be blinded but according to the election they are still the beloved for the sake of the father... the father has still chosen Jerusalem

DurbanDude
Apr 27th 2008, 01:23 PM
Well I personally believe the whore is the Catholic church as a woman often symbolizes a church and the whore would mean an impure church. This would also go along with your thought of the Pope.



I agree with this , and for another reason too. I find interpreting the bible is often very easy , especially when the bible explains the interpretation in very simple language. In Revelation 17:18 the bible simply states that the woman/prostitute is "the great city that rules over the kings of the earth". This sentence was written when Rome ruled over the entire region.

I have heard this simple interpretation explained away in many ways but every time I read it, it points me directly to Rome , and I think of the Vatican.

Midwest Bob
Apr 27th 2008, 02:45 PM
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. KJV

The verse says the blood of ALL slain upon the earth not just since America came into existence. In order to find the blood "of all that were slain upon the earth" babylon had to exist when Cain slew Able and still be here when the last person to be murdered on this earth has been murdered. Babylon can not be limited to a single city, continent, or religion, nor can it be can be constrained by time. America may be a part of Babylon but not Babylon in its entirety. You can not find the blood "of all that were slain upon the earth" in America, and this by itself is eliminates America from being Babylon.

JMHO, I believe that Babylon, then, represents the often murderous, material greed driven nature of mankind, personal and government etc., trapped by the things of this world, Satan's stuff, to the person's personal condemnation, throughout the entire history of mankind.

DurbanDude
Apr 27th 2008, 03:13 PM
Bob , what you say does make perfect sense , but then so does Rev 17:18. Obviously Rome has not been the cause of EVERY slain individual in history till the present , but we still can't deny that the woman is identified as a specific city in Rev 17:18. I think even the fact that this city is called "Babylon" confirms what you say that the city referred to as Babylon is a figurative term for the evil that is prevalent in this world , yet I still believe that the manifestation of this evil is identified specifically with the city of Rome in Rev 17:18.

The Village Idiot
Apr 29th 2008, 09:22 PM
BANG!


Babylon can not be limited to a single city, continent, or religion, nor can it be can be constrained by time. America may be a part of Babylon but not Babylon in its entirety. You can not find the blood "of all that were slain upon the earth" in America, and this by itself is eliminates America from being Babylon.

JMHO, I believe that Babylon, then, represents the often murderous, material greed driven nature of mankind, personal and government etc., trapped by the things of this world, Satan's stuff, to the person's personal condemnation, throughout the entire history of mankind.

As I see it, whomever the cap of Babylon fits must wear it. Whomever does the deeds of Babylon (Re 18:4) is Babylon in whatever form, by whatever name, in any time or place.

Well done, my friend! Very well done indeed.

dan
May 2nd 2008, 03:22 AM
I don't see the problem, in fact the attempt on Pope John Paul II only helps the argument . . .

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. - Revelation 13:3

Rome is also considered the city of seven hills . . .

And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. - Revelation 17:9

And remember that . . .

And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The beast is dead and comes back, so it must be someone who is dead. Now this is just some peoples belief and this line of logic takes for granted that the head that was wounded is the same one that comes back. There is no scripture clarifying which head of the beast is being talked about at anytime so there is no way of being certain, but that's more of the argument of the beast being a Pope and more specifically John Paul II.

(All verses from the King James Version)

I hope that doesn't cross the lines of naming people as beasts/AC . . . I am merely trying to show what some people believe and the evidence they use.

John Paul II never had a healed deadly head wound. John Paul II never said, "Those that murder with a weapon must not be killed with a weapon", but another has made that statement. A man with a weapon induced deadly head wound that was healed.
Also, the likelihood of Russia serving as the hand of God is nil. They are too busy trying to make Armageddon happen.:lol:

heart hammer
May 2nd 2008, 03:57 AM
One point to make (and I admit that I have not read any post on this thread yet), The Whore is spiritual. It is a fornication with false gods. There is no such thing as a christian nation. Nor is there any such thing as a antichristian nation. Christ is either in a person's heart or He is not. We can not make a blanket statement defining the tendencies of the people to determine their religion. The Babylon whore is the tares among the wheat. It is the leaven which the 'woman' (and not saying this against women at all but a certain woman) sowed in three measures of. It is those things which Christ will have gathered out of His Kingdom--those things which offend and commit iniquity, Who cry out saying Lord, Lord have we not...

It is the Everything that calls itself God but in deeds denies Him. In that day seven women shall take hold of one man saying, 'We will eat our own bread and wear our own apparel, only let us be called by thy name to take away our reproach.'

It is the doctrine of the nicolaitanes mentioned in Revelation 2.
We can compromise with the world as much as we need to in order to gain the more.
You compass land and sea to gain one prosylete and when he is made you make him twice the child of hell as yourself.....

Take care and Take it to heart....we may all appear the same until the time of the harvest. But the word is able to divide the soul and Spirit.

Take care and God Bless

timmyb
May 2nd 2008, 05:11 AM
One point to make (and I admit that I have not read any post on this thread yet), The Whore is spiritual. It is a fornication with false gods. There is no such thing as a christian nation. Nor is there any such thing as a antichristian nation. Christ is either in a person's heart or He is not. We can not make a blanket statement defining the tendencies of the people to determine their religion. The Babylon whore is the tares among the wheat. It is the leaven which the 'woman' (and not saying this against women at all but a certain woman) sowed in three measures of. It is those things which Christ will have gathered out of His Kingdom--those things which offend and commit iniquity, Who cry out saying Lord, Lord have we not...

It is the Everything that calls itself God but in deeds denies Him. In that day seven women shall take hold of one man saying, 'We will eat our own bread and wear our own apparel, only let us be called by thy name to take away our reproach.'

It is the doctrine of the nicolaitanes mentioned in Revelation 2.
We can compromise with the world as much as we need to in order to gain the more.
You compass land and sea to gain one prosylete and when he is made you make him twice the child of hell as yourself.....

Take care and Take it to heart....we may all appear the same until the time of the harvest. But the word is able to divide the soul and Spirit.

Take care and God Bless

no christian nation?

1 Peter 2:9 says we are a holy nation... a KINGDOM of priests....

believe me the Kingdom of God is reality and Satan will try to mimic every aspect of God's kingdom in man.... The Antichrist is the anthesis of Christ... meaning Christ is a man, the Antichrist will be a man. Christ is King, Antichrist will set himself up as King. Christ has a kingdom, and so will the Antichrist. Everything God has, the Antichrist will try to copy with the fullness of man's depravity.

dan
May 2nd 2008, 12:29 PM
any city/organization could easily be the whore... even the podunk towns of Mississippi and Alabama could be the whore of Babylon for all we know... great city could apply to just about any metropolitan area in the world... EXCEPT Jerusalem

...Read the Bible, you would see that there are several qualifications:

It must be a large port city.

There must be a diverse ethnic population.

The "kings of the earth" must be accustomed to visiting this city.

In the end times, it will be the seat of power for the world.

Mississippi and Alabama? Not even close, I'd say.

heart hammer
May 2nd 2008, 04:05 PM
You misunderstand me. There is no "geographic nation of christianity" including the USA. It is all about the individual. My Kingdom is not of this world... I do not see any nation on earth representing Christ. The whole world is full of the Babylon Whore. There is no single place on earth that this will be limited to.
Take Care and God Bless

timmyb
May 2nd 2008, 06:40 PM
...Read the Bible, you would see that there are several qualifications:

It must be a large port city.

There must be a diverse ethnic population.

The "kings of the earth" must be accustomed to visiting this city.

In the end times, it will be the seat of power for the world.

Mississippi and Alabama? Not even close, I'd say.

it cannot be Jerusalem either... Satan wants to destroy Jerusalem, not live in it

jedi_knight01
May 3rd 2008, 11:01 PM
It could be Iran or Saudi Arabia..

dan
May 4th 2008, 12:16 PM
You misunderstand me. There is no "geographic nation of christianity" including the USA. It is all about the individual. My Kingdom is not of this world... I do not see any nation on earth representing Christ. The whole world is full of the Babylon Whore. There is no single place on earth that this will be limited to.
Take Care and God Bless

Jesus said that the Kingdom Of God would be taken from Israel:

MT 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
MT 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

And what nation brings forth the Fruits Of The Kingdom more than any other? The USA.

The Bible speaks of a nation that will be the gathering place for the People Of God:

JN 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
JN 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
JN 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
JN 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

And where do the Children Of God gather? The USA.

DurbanDude
May 5th 2008, 06:01 PM
Everyone seems to ignore the fact that the bible itself identifies the prostitute. Rev 17:18 "the woman you saw is the city that rules over the kings of the earth"

This was written at a time when Rome ruled over the kings of the earth.

There are so many symbols in the bible that are difficult to interpret , lets at least agree on the easy ones where the bible is so very clear , the woman is Rome.

:rofl:ok I know that won't happen , just being hopeful here :rofl:

ShirleyFord
May 5th 2008, 07:05 PM
no christian nation?

1 Peter 2:9 says we are a holy nation... a KINGDOM of priests....

believe me the Kingdom of God is reality and Satan will try to mimic every aspect of God's kingdom in man.... The Antichrist is the anthesis of Christ... meaning Christ is a man, the Antichrist will be a man. Christ is King, Antichrist will set himself up as King. Christ has a kingdom, and so will the Antichrist. Everything God has, the Antichrist will try to copy with the fullness of man's depravity.

The Church, God's holy nation is the kingdom of God on the earth. And God's nation is presently located in every geographical nation on the earth.

Some erroneously teach that America is a Christian nation and belongs to God. I was taught that it was in my American History Class in 11th grade back in the 1950s and all through school before and after then. That was what my Church taught growing up and what my parents believed for as long as I can remember.

But as I read the Bible, I can find but one geographic nation that God claimed as His. The nation of Israel. But since Jesus came the first time, the geographical nation of Israel has served its physical purpose as God's nation. And I can't find any other geographical nation that God calls His own, Christian or otherwise.


And concerning "antichrist", we find the word "antichrist" listed in only 4 verses in the entire Bible. And it is John who mentions the word But from John's description, it doesn't sound like antichrist is one man or even a man.

1 Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

timmyb
May 7th 2008, 09:01 PM
The Church, God's holy nation is the kingdom of God on the earth. And God's nation is presently located in every geographical nation on the earth.

Some erroneously teach that America is a Christian nation and belongs to God. I was taught that it was in my American History Class in 11th grade back in the 1950s and all through school before and after then. That was what my Church taught growing up and what my parents believed for as long as I can remember.

But as I read the Bible, I can find but one geographic nation that God claimed as His. The nation of Israel. But since Jesus came the first time, the geographical nation of Israel has served its physical purpose as God's nation. And I can't find any other geographical nation that God calls His own, Christian or otherwise.


And concerning "antichrist", we find the word "antichrist" listed in only 4 verses in the entire Bible. And it is John who mentions the word But from John's description, it doesn't sound like antichrist is one man or even a man.

1 Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

One problem with that is that he will be ruling the nations of the earth from Jerusalem... as I said in another thread, Israel has not fulfilled her purpose as God's chosen... we are included in on their promises, but that doesn't mean that God has cast off Israel

timmyb
May 7th 2008, 09:02 PM
Everyone seems to ignore the fact that the bible itself identifies the prostitute. Rev 17:18 "the woman you saw is the city that rules over the kings of the earth"

This was written at a time when Rome ruled over the kings of the earth.

There are so many symbols in the bible that are difficult to interpret , lets at least agree on the easy ones where the bible is so very clear , the woman is Rome.

:rofl:ok I know that won't happen , just being hopeful here :rofl:

give me a scripture that clearly identifies the whore... i don't want history, or anything else... we could be at that all day... where in the Bible does it say WHO the woman is... and NAME it.

mizzdy
May 8th 2008, 12:09 AM
The Saud kingdom fit in some ways better than Rome although I wouldn't rule out Rome having her part. The Sauds have the influence over the kings of the earth through oil. I do think the 'wine' symbology is about oil. Mecca is called the city of seven hills, they do behead people there, christianity is not welcomed there although I did read they are looking into some form of acceptance. Rev 18 lists luxury, given to pleasures, its also a port city. When Isaiah talks about the judgement of babylon in chpt. 47 he says they trusted in the wickedness and thought that no one saw how sinnful they really are. America is all out for all the world to see! There is no hiding the sin here its on worldwide tv, we may censor news here ;) but not the teenage celebraties running wild. It is the leader of islam or at least they like to believe they are but it does seems the jhadist are in charge these days. So many of us are focused on Rome, we often forget that after western rome fell it moved east. We often over look Turkey and the southern russian nations. We look to UN, Vatican or the EU as the usual culprits, I see them all in some way bound up within each other. The EU with a huge push by France's Sarkozy announced the formation of the Mediterranean Union. All the EU nations will be in the charter but the Med. Union will be like a mini UN its own small governing body. But in the end it is God's plan and His time table and no matter how many of us think we are right in the end we might all be shaking our heads saying 'awww thats the way it was supposed to go'. :D We are to be watching and ready, no where does it say we will all know the complete and whole truth concerning the end times. Although I admit this is one of my favorite subjects to read about. :)

Gideon7620
May 8th 2008, 06:05 PM
She seems to fit all the prophetic disciptions perfectly, even the seven, hills or mountains part. The seven hills or mountains as in the old testament represent the Seven world kingdoms or Empires, nations if you would, they are the Babylonian, Medo, Persian, Egyptian, Grecian, Roman, and finally the Harlot, America as the second to the last Empire. There will be an eighth. That is formed in one hour after the antichrist betrays the harlot and forms a 10 nation confederate alliance to destroy the Harlot.

DurbanDude
May 9th 2008, 01:26 PM
give me a scripture that clearly identifies the whore... i don't want history, or anything else... we could be at that all day... where in the Bible does it say WHO the woman is... and NAME it.

sorry Timmyb , you can't ignore history. There are many prophecies that have been fulfilled between the writings of the gospels and now , and only history can verify those fulfilments. eg destruction of Jerusalem prophesied and verified by history , re-establishment of Israel verified by history in 1948 , continuation of the power of Rome , verified throughout the last 2000 years. History reveals these fulfilments. Even when we see the bible being fulfilled now in earthquakes etc , soon this period will be history too.


Scripture : Revelation 17:18

The city is not named , but is a city that existed at the time of the writing of Revelation , and it is a city that ruled over kings. To ignore this is to ignore the deliberate use of tense in the bible , the present tense was used. Only Rome fits this description.

ShirleyFord
May 9th 2008, 01:57 PM
One problem with that is that he will be ruling the nations of the earth from Jerusalem... as I said in another thread, Israel has not fulfilled her purpose as God's chosen... we are included in on their promises, but that doesn't mean that God has cast off Israel

What Scriptures have you found, Timmy, that says Jesus will be ruling the nations from earthly Jerusalem, capital of the modern-day nation of Israel, on this old earth after His Second Coming?

The Village Idiot
May 9th 2008, 02:46 PM
"holy nation... a KINGDOM of priests...." (Ex 19:6).

Holy priests? Apparently this domain exists as liturgical function. In that and in no other sense can I concur that there exists such a thing as a "Christian nation." The "Christian nation" theory is one of the few remaining, heretical themes bequeathed to the church from Constantine.

yaqub
May 9th 2008, 07:41 PM
Everyone seems to ignore the fact that the bible itself identifies the prostitute. Rev 17:18 "the woman you saw is the city that rules over the kings of the earth"

This was written at a time when Rome ruled over the kings of the earth.

There are so many symbols in the bible that are difficult to interpret , lets at least agree on the easy ones where the bible is so very clear , the woman is Rome.

:rofl:ok I know that won't happen , just being hopeful here :rofl:

And this thread will suddenly disappear!

danield
May 10th 2008, 09:06 PM
Revelation 17:7-8 7 "Why are you so amazed?" the angel asked. "I will tell you the mystery of this woman and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns on which she sits. 8 The beast you saw was once alive but isn't now. And yet he will soon come up out of the bottomless pit and go to eternal destruction. And the people who belong to this world, whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made, will be amazed at the reappearance of this beast who had died.
I think this passage identifies a duel meaning. The first part of its meaning is the reappearance of the lawless one reappearing from the bottomless pit, but I also think that this passage gives a clue to which type of government will emerge during the last days. Notice that it says that the beast you saw was alive once but is not now. Well could this mean that the democratic city states of Greece that were alive at one time but not during the time of this writing would reappear and in doing so make a platform for the AC to deceive the ruling population or even conquer them during a time of weakness?

Before I go any further let me restate my feelings toward the good America has done for the world. The USA in general has done more for human rights than any other country in history. It is undisputable that the very foundation of our country was built on Christian beliefs and we have carried those values in our laws. And it was these very laws that were forged by Christian men and women, and it has been passed down from generation to generation that even today we can find many saints that work tirelessly for Christ’s sake. And it is those people who I envision are mentioned as the Saints in Revelation.

America, today, is not a ruthless evil dictatorship that we all see in Revelation 17 & 18, but that does not mean that we can not succumb to one. I personally can easily see the deterioration of Godly values in America. And this erosion has defiantly spread to other parts of the world. It will take time for a total breakdown as was seen in the days of Lott, but I can see it coming as I am sure everyone else can. I had a very long and detailed post about how Rome could not be Babylon, but I deleted it. I think it just takes a lot of time explain how it all fits together, and I do not like to bash our country because it seems so unpatriotic. But every time I read revelation, I can see the remnants of our way of life slowly developing into the Prostitute of Babylon. I believe when Babylon does arrive, we will see the eighth king appear. I also think that this king will take control of America by force from outside her boarders and he will put the 10 kings in charge of her and the rest of the world. It will be then that we will see the days of the tribulation.


Revelation 17:18 18 And this woman you saw in your vision represents the great city that rules over the kings of the world."
As far as seeing this particular scripture and correlating it to the time of John in Roman days, I think John was seeing a vision in the future in that passage. And a true clue as to which kind of government would be the platform for the AC to rise up in is here.

Revelation 17:8 8 The beast you saw was once alive but isn't now.


Anyway this is one part of the scripture that I hate to even comment on. :(

The Village Idiot
May 11th 2008, 06:33 AM
The beast you saw was once alive but isn't now. And yet he will soon come up out of the bottomless pit and go to eternal destruction. And the people who belong to this world, whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made, will be amazed at the reappearance of this beast who had died.

The beast you saw was once alive but isn't now. And yet he will soon come–by any chance, could this be a parody to Christ "who was, who is, and who is to come" (Re 1:4)?


...the democratic city states of Greece that were alive at one time...Before I go any further let me restate my feelings toward the good America has done for the world. The USA in general has done more for human rights than any other country in history.

I think we know the beast. I think that the beast can be identified by his beastly works! Could it be that we are deliberately blind to the imperial hegemony which now bestrides the earth? Could it be that we push the theology of Revelation into the future in order to avoid naming the beast and his discretionary "for profit" wars in the here and now? And isn’t it interesting that the US and eretz Ysra’el (the handler for the Great, Dancing Bear?) are the two countrys in the world now sponsoring an occupation? Human rights indeed!


It is undisputable that the very foundation of our country was built on Christian beliefs and we have carried those values in our laws.

Well I dispute it. I think the best we can say is that there has always been a significant, Christian influence. I note that Deism more than Theism marked religious philosophy of the Revolutionary era. Moreover, the USA has, in the past 100 years, sponsored some 60 invasions, assassinations, coups, puppet governments, insurrectionist movements and other international misdemeanors. As a case in point, we favored logging companies by sending imperial storm troopers armed with Space Age weapons into the Amazon to denude forests of local inhabitants who defend themselves with Stone Age bow-and-arrow weaponry.

That differs from Rome–how?


America, today, is not a ruthless evil dictatorship that we all see in Revelation 17 & 18, but that does not mean that we can not succumb to one.

Neither was Rome. Unless you resisted--which faithfulness to God's word bound John to do.


I personally can easily see the deterioration of Godly values in America.

So can I. Ezekiel put it this way: "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. 50 "Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it" (Ezk 16:49-50).


"I do not like to bash our country because it seems so unpatriotic."

It does, doesn’t it. But what if "patriotism" is itself an heretical invention of the modern secular state? What if "patriotism" is an unacknowledged state religion of political piety?


But every time I read revelation, I can see the remnants of our way of life slowly developing into the Prostitute of Babylon.

Slowly? Slowly?


I believe when Babylon does arrive, we will see the eighth king appear. I also think that this king will take control of America by force from outside her boarders and he will put the 10 kings in charge of her and the rest of the world. It will be then that we will see the days of the tribulation.

When Babylon arrives? If it acts like Babylon, can we at least respond as though it is? Oh for a faithful church that sees and addresses Pharaoh through Moses’ eyes and lips! Would this mark us as terrorists? Enemies of the state? Send us and/or our children to Gitmo? Of course it would.

We need the book of Revelation precisely to fortify us against that on the conviction that all allegiance due solely to Jesus Christ.

danield
May 12th 2008, 04:52 AM
Revelation 17:8 8 The beast you saw was once alive but isn't now. And yet he will soon come up out of the bottomless pit and go to eternal destruction.

The beast you saw was once alive but isn't now. And yet he will soon come–by any chance, could this be a parody to Christ "who was, who is, and who is to come" (Re 1:4)?

Revelation 1:4 4 ¶ John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

I do not think this is talking about Christ at all. Christ will never go to eternal destruction, and he is not in the bottomless pit. The connection to Rev 1:4 should not be linked in any circumstance.

I think we know the beast. I think that the beast can be identified by his beastly works! Could it be that we are deliberately blind to the imperial hegemony which now bestrides the earth? Could it be that we push the theology of Revelation into the future in order to avoid naming the beast and his discretionary "for profit" wars in the here and now? And isn’t it interesting that the US and eretz Ysra’el (the handler for the Great, Dancing Bear?) are the two countrys in the world now sponsoring an occupation? Human rights indeed!
I am not so sure that it is the wars for profit that dictates the beast, but a more of a falling away from Godly values from all of its citizens that characterizes Babylon. I do agree that putting anything above the lord is basically creating an idol, and the hunt for money is well known for modern day baal. It has been America that has refined this practice better than any other country in history. Could this be the nexus that turns our leadership towards the leaders of the Middle East while trying to split Israel to appease our need for crude? It could be.

In fact, it may be that it is our dependency to crude that will turn a series of seven presidents against the leadership of Israel in favor of the Arab countries. These seven presidents may strongly encourage Israel to divide the lands that were promised to them just as our current administration is trying to broker a peace treaty between the leadership of the Middle East and Israel. Obviously, there is a peace treaty that will be broken, and it could be this type of an agreement that needs to be in place before the rise of the eighth king occurs. I am not certain that this will happen, but in all likelihood, this scenario is very plausible facing the current events we are all witnessing.


Well I dispute it. I think the best we can say is that there has always been a significant, Christian influence. I note that Deism more than Theism marked religious philosophy of the Revolutionary era. Moreover, the USA has, in the past 100 years, sponsored some 60 invasions, assassinations, coups, puppet governments, insurrectionist movements and other international misdemeanors. As a case in point, we favored logging companies by sending imperial storm troopers armed with Space Age weapons into the Amazon to denude forests of local inhabitants who defend themselves with Stone Age bow-and-arrow weaponry.

That differs from Rome–how?
There are several books out now that does compares us to Rome. I am not so sure they are on target to the brutality that was experienced in that era. Personally, I think the USA is very unique unlike any other country that has ever existed. I also think this is shown in this scripture.

Revelation 17:6-7 6 ¶ I could see that she was drunk-- drunk with the blood of God's holy people who were witnesses for Jesus. I stared at her in complete amazement. 7 "Why are you so amazed?" the angel asked. "I will tell you the mystery of this woman and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns on which she sits.
As you can see John is looking at the woman in complete amazement. Look at the amazing things this democracy has helped facilitate through the years. The discoveries, achievement, influence, and compassion all wrapped up in one group of people from all walks of life. This melting pot of nations with the help from the Lord has done so many wonderful things. John had to be amazed by her as anyone would. In addition to the accomplishments we have achieved, our country is filled with people who witness for Christ.

As far as Deism vs. thesim being the mainstay of the revolutionary war, I am not so sure these terms would be the proper character of the men and women fighting for freedom.

Theism is the belief in a god or gods.


Deism is the belief that there is a God that created the physical universe but does not interfere with it.

Like theism, deism is a basic belief upon which religions can be built. So using these terms to reflect the true heart of our founding fathers would be confusing to say the least.

What I am suggesting is that these men were predominantly Christian. They were all coming off the heels of a bitter fight between the protestant and catholic faiths, and they did not want to include these bitter rivalries in their new country. They saw how it was tearing up Europe, and they needed a way to attract unification between these sects to defend their new government. Were there people who were not religious at all, I am sure there were. I think Ben Franklin was not a man of faith, but all in all this country was founded on the Christian Judeo values. It has been the last few generations of lawyers and judges who have worked hard to replace these values. For instance look at Gay marriage. If you think our country felt differently back then, heck look at how Salem looked at witchcraft. They would burn them at the stake for even any inclination of believing in anything different. I know it was abused, and I am not condoning things like that, but if you want to know how deeply rooted that society was in the Christian belief, you can see it plainly right there.

I would also like to comment on our country’s involvement in wars over the past 100 years. Everything our country has done has not been wrong. Look at our defense of England and Europe in WWII. We have really done some amazing, good things for the people of this world. We have tried to fight communism. Look at how brutal Russia was in the early to mid 1900’s. Our influence alone has helped maintain stability throughout the world. Countries of ages past would fight great wars over land and territory, and this is a thing of the past for now at least. If the same mindset was in place today, the Middle East would have already been over run by forces claiming rights to their oil reserves.

America is not perfect, but it has been a pretty good country for many who call it home.
My concern with the USA is how we have fallen away from decent Godly values it once had. And I think we will continue to drift away from those values to the point that we will compromise our alliance with the Jewish state of Israel over the need for crude from the Middle Eastern countries. Also, I do fear how the Lord looks at our nation and its values it has migrated to. Immorality is widespread today, and I can only see it getting worse.

So can I. Ezekiel put it this way: "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. 50 "Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it" (Ezk 16:49-50).
I think this is a great passage to reference what Babylon will be like! Good job.

It does, doesn’t it. But what if "patriotism" is itself an heretical invention of the modern secular state? What if "patriotism" is an unacknowledged state religion of political piety?
I think anytime you put anything in your life before God it is a sin, but being patriotic is not heretical. You can be proud of your country and love God more, but if you are proud of your country when it is doing things against the Lord then it does become a conflict. For instance, I am not proud of our country when it wants to allow gay marriage or open our senate sessions with prayers to other Gods. It is heart breaking, but it is like this all over the world. So all I can do is just witness the best that I can and know that it was much, MUCH more difficult during the early years of Christianity.

When Babylon arrives? If it acts like Babylon, can we at least respond as though it is? Oh for a faithful church that sees and addresses Pharaoh through Moses’ eyes and lips! Would this mark us as terrorists? Enemies of the state? Send us and/or our children to Gitmo? Of course it would.

We need the book of Revelation precisely to fortify us against that on the conviction that all allegiance due solely to Jesus Christ.
I agree, but I do think the delineation mark between the 7th and 8th king will be unmistakable especially to us Christians. It will be a difficult time for us and we will all need our lamps full of oil to endure the trials that we will face. I do hope that the lord gives us all the strength to endure those hardships so we can rejoice in seeing our Lord and Savior return in full glory. But until then we can draw peace and inspiration from all the books from his Holy Word!
God Bless!

dan
May 12th 2008, 01:35 PM
Russia, China, and Iran fear the US most of all. They will engage us in war to keep us out of they're endeavors in the Mideast.
As the protector of Israel, we will be the first concern of any attempt to end the existence of that nation.

MT 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
MT 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

JN 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
JN 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
JN 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
JN 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

nascarbob4824
May 21st 2008, 12:03 AM
it is interesting that BABYLON is rebuilit in iraq.and the u s a is paying the bill.babylon has been rebuilt, but it will have a hard time being a major city again.

vinsight4u8
May 21st 2008, 12:09 AM
it is interesting that BABYLON is rebuilit in iraq.and the u s a is paying the bill.babylon has been rebuilt, but it will have a hard time being a major city again.

Shinar -located in Iraq between the Tigris and the Euphrates rivers
has a rebuild it prophecy in Zechariah chapter 5

Iraq =Babylon was to be rebuilt

set upon her same place
to be wicked again
at the appointed time

Reynolds357
May 21st 2008, 12:31 AM
I think the whore of Babylon comes from the USA or, It is the USA. Think about it. Babylon is in Iraq, the US is at war with Iraq. If the war ended today, the USA won't just pick up and leave, they would rebuilt, making Babylon the capital of Iraq, cause that's where the false prophet, which I believe is the pope, is going to move his headquarters to.

During the rebuild process, either the USA is going to oversee and input there own ideas or someone from the USA.That someone I think is, Condoleezza Rice. Another meaning for whore is a person that turns to idol worship. Jerusalem is condemned for her injustice, Isa 1:21-23, 'she who was once faithful has become a harlot'. Worshipping other gods is likened to prostitution, Exo 34:14-17, Lev 17:6-7. Idolatry is also prostitution, Lev 17:6-7, Ezek 16:17, 23:49.

Condoleezza Rice Father Reverend John Wesley Rice, Jr., is a Presbyterian minister so, you know there's a good chance Condoleezza grew up in the church knowing about the Lord. But here's where it gets very suspicious, leading me to think she could be the "whore of Babylon"

During George W. Bush's 2000 U.S.Presidential election campaign Condoleezza rice led a group of advisors. The Group she led called itself The Vulcans in honor of a Roman Idol God. There's also a huge statue of a Vulcan in her hometown.

That doesn’t sit right with me. The USA has “In God We trust all over its money” They say “God bless America” now I’m wondering which god are they talking about. The true God (The god of Abraham and Moses) or that Roman Idol False God? Did the USA worship the Real god and then secretly turned to this false idol God? Rice grew up in the church, then she leads a group name after a roman Idol god. Most say that the Antichirst will lead a revised roman empire.

She lead a group called The vulcans in honor of a roman idol god, he's going to lead a revised roman empire. The antichirst will decieve isreal into signing a 7 year false peace treaty, and Rice is pushing for a peace treaty.

So, I don't know is it the USA, or Condolezza, or both? What do you guys think?


Condolezza is a new one on me. The theory used to be the Statue of Liberty was the whore, now it is Rice. To be perfectly honest with you, I think both theories have strayed far from the Bible. If you read the entire passage, it is quite plain that the Whore is a false religious system that anti-christ rides to power. Is it Islam? Is it an apostate, post rapture Catholic Church? I do not know, but I do know it is not Rice or the Statue of Liberty.

vinsight4u8
May 21st 2008, 12:36 AM
The bible speaks of it as a city.

a city that has her harlot name on her forehead
Why?
Because she is a wicked city from long ago that was punished some by God but waits till the end to get her full due amount.

John was shown the judgment of the city.
The city was judged already in the past - but still sat refusing to be ashamed of her sins.

So God lets time pass - the city rises as the mother of harlots one more time - and at the end of that time is when God will take her down in a way where she will finally be ashamed.

Lebanon - see Isaiah 33:9
Tyre in Lebanon - see Isaiah 23:15 and Zec. 9

Ezekiel 28 too!

fewarechosen
May 21st 2008, 04:05 AM
15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

she sittith on all cities for all of us love her jewels and nice cars and plasma tv screens. the very things we lust after is waht the whore embodies thats why she sits over all peoples and nations.

babylon has never left us for it is the hearts of the people that make babylon what it is.
babylon is whatever city, town ,nation whatever that has its heart more towards mammon than god.

i have no pride in my nation or any other and would never call my nation good -for christ himself said call none good but the father not even christ. and if i shall not call christ good should we ever call a nation or people good ? the whore is over all nations

vinsight4u8
May 21st 2008, 04:22 AM
Read just two chapters in Jeremiah.
50-51

the burden - as to the prophecy to befall Babylon

Would you say that all of the things listed have happend already?

If not, then look at the end of ch 51 as to Jeremiah lets us know without a doubt that he means this prophecy message is for Babylon on the Euphrates River.