PDA

View Full Version : Job 4:12-21 Need An Explanation, Please



menJesus
Apr 19th 2008, 11:14 PM
Job 4:12-21 (King James Version)

12Now a thing was secretly brought to me, and mine ear received a little thereof.

13In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falleth on men,

14Fear came upon me, and trembling, which made all my bones to shake.

15Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up:

16It stood still, but I could not discern the form thereof: an image was before mine eyes, there was silence, and I heard a voice, saying,

17Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

18Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:

19How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth?

20They are destroyed from morning to evening: they perish for ever without any regarding it.

21Doth not their excellency which is in them go away? they die, even without wisdom.


I need someone to explain this passage, please, and I`d also like to know if there is any reference to this passage, in the Bible.

Thanks in advance.

Kandaje
Apr 20th 2008, 02:28 AM
Greetings...

This is Eliphaz The first of Job's three friends who come to attempt to explain to him WHY Job has been visited with his tribulations...

To understand his words, you need to be aware of who Eliphaz is and what he believed...

Eliphaz was Esau's first born with Adah. An assassin and the father of Amalek the ancestral enemy of Israel - He was bought off by Jacob (the guy he was supposed to assasinate).

Eliphaz has NO honor. He's trying to convince Job that he is being punished for some sin.

Eliphaz is basicly saying:

Oh dude! You've got to believe me! I saw it in a dream! I was SO Scared! It MUST be real!

But Job is no fool - he aint buying it. Eliphaz is basicly being a false prophet - and a poor one at that...

menJesus
Apr 20th 2008, 08:54 AM
Greetings to you, and thanks for the background information... now I understand... :)

tgallison
Apr 20th 2008, 11:39 AM
Job 4:12-21 (King James Version)

12Now a thing was secretly brought to me, and mine ear received a little thereof.

13In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falleth on men,

14Fear came upon me, and trembling, which made all my bones to shake.

15Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up:

16It stood still, but I could not discern the form thereof: an image was before mine eyes, there was silence, and I heard a voice, saying,

17Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

18Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:

19How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth?

20They are destroyed from morning to evening: they perish for ever without any regarding it.

21Doth not their excellency which is in them go away? they die, even without wisdom.


I need someone to explain this passage, please, and I`d also like to know if there is any reference to this passage, in the Bible.

Thanks in advance.

menJesus greetings

Totally disagree with Kandaje.

This is God's charge against Job. It is also Elihu's charge against Job. Elihu claimed to be speaking in God's place.

First, the method that God uses to speak to men is just as Eliphaz describes it.

Job 32:14-18 "For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed: Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction, that he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man. He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword."

Job said, Job 7:14 "Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:"

Elihu's charge against Job. Job 35:2 "Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

God's charge against Job. Job 40:8 "Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

The Spirit's charge through Eliphaz, Job 4:17 "Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

In Jesus Christ, terrell

menJesus
Apr 20th 2008, 12:29 PM
But, gallison, it was not the Spirit, it was "a spirit"...

Brother Mark
Apr 20th 2008, 12:36 PM
But, gallison, it was not the Spirit, it was "a spirit"...

I think it may have been a demon that came on him. "Can a man be just before God?" Yes he can! Yet, the spirit did not qualify that statement. And great fear was on the man. The hair of his head stood up. Abraham was "just" before God as he believed God and God counted it to him as righteousness. Does Satan not still ask that question to many of God's servants? "Does God really accept you? Your sin is great. Can a man such as you be just before a Holy God?"

God himself said that Job was blameless and a servant of God and that Job was the most unique man in all the world! He was upright. He hated evil. Job was a righteous man and just before God to the point that God bragged on Job to Satan.

menJesus
Apr 20th 2008, 01:05 PM
"16It stood still, but I could not discern the form thereof: an image was before mine eyes, there was silence, and I heard a voice, saying,"

If I saw something like that, I dare say my hair would stand up, too!

Brother Mark
Apr 20th 2008, 01:07 PM
If I saw something like that, I dare say my hair would stand up, too!

If you have long hair, then wouldn't that be a sight to see! :lol:

menJesus
Apr 20th 2008, 01:19 PM
My hair is not too long - I would look like an angry porcupine! :rofl:

tgallison
Apr 20th 2008, 09:55 PM
But, gallison, it was not the Spirit, it was "a spirit"...

menJesus greetings

No, Spirit was not capitalized, but then this was Eliphaz speaking. To him it was just a spirit, he did not know God.

The same Hebrew word for Spirit, ruwach is used in Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void: and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Brother Mark
Apr 20th 2008, 10:00 PM
menJesus greetings

No, Spirit was not capitalized, but then this was Eliphaz speaking. To him it was just a spirit, he did not know God.

The same Hebrew word for Spirit, ruwach is used in Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void: and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

It is also the same Hebrew word used in the following passage.

Judg 9:23
23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech,
NASB

Spirits can be good or evil. This one asked a question that suggested no man can be just before God. The spirit does make very valid points. But we know a man can be just before God as Abraham was righteous and we are righteous. Having said that, I am open to another interpretation if warranted.

tgallison
Apr 20th 2008, 10:22 PM
It is also the same Hebrew word used in the following passage.

Judg 9:23
23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech,
NASB

Spirits can be good or evil. This one asked a question that suggested no man can be just before God. The spirit does make very valid points. But we know a man can be just before God as Abraham was righteous and we are righteous. Having said that, I am open to another interpretation if warranted.

Brother Mark Greetings

The Book of Job does not say evil spirit, just a spirit.

I do not know what translation you use, but mine says more just than God, more pure than his maker.

That is not the same as righteous before God.

And it is the same charge that God made of Job. (Wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?)

How do you reply to God's charge against Job?

In Jesus Christ, terrell

Teke
Apr 21st 2008, 12:40 PM
Job 4:12-21 (King James Version)

12Now a thing was secretly brought to me, and mine ear received a little thereof.

13In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falleth on men,

14Fear came upon me, and trembling, which made all my bones to shake.

15Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up:

16It stood still, but I could not discern the form thereof: an image was before mine eyes, there was silence, and I heard a voice, saying,

17Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

18Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:

19How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth?

20They are destroyed from morning to evening: they perish for ever without any regarding it.

21Doth not their excellency which is in them go away? they die, even without wisdom.


I need someone to explain this passage, please, and I`d also like to know if there is any reference to this passage, in the Bible.

Thanks in advance.

In Chp 4 Eliphaz, in his hypocrisy, begins to mock Job for the very virtues he had been praised for. Christ was mocked and reviled in a similar way (Luke 23:35-37)

Eliphaz could not understand why God would allow a righteous man to suffer.

Verses 13-21 typify, with Job's friends, teachers of false doctrines. They pretend to hear hidden words from God in order to confuse the weak and to 'cast a veil of reverence' over their preaching.

"A false witness shall perish..." Prov. 21:28

"For I have not sent them, saith the LORD, yet they prophesy a lie in my name;..." Jer. 27:15

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:..." Hosea 4:6

tgallison
Apr 21st 2008, 03:57 PM
In Chp 4 Eliphaz, in his hypocrisy, begins to mock Job for the very virtues he had been praised for. Christ was mocked and reviled in a similar way (Luke 23:35-37)

Eliphaz could not understand why God would allow a righteous man to suffer.

Verses 13-21 typify, with Job's friends, teachers of false doctrines. They pretend to hear hidden words from God in order to confuse the weak and to 'cast a veil of reverence' over their preaching.

Teke Greetings

You are charging Eliphaz with lying, and you are doing so in order to defend Job.

Eliphaz said, a spirit spoke and said, shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Is it possible for a mortal man to be more just than God? Was this a lie?

terrell

tgallison
Apr 21st 2008, 10:58 PM
Job 4:12-21 (King James Version)


20They are destroyed from morning to evening: they perish for ever without any regarding it.

21Doth not their excellency which is in them go away? they die, even without wisdom.


I need someone to explain this passage, please, and I`d also like to know if there is any reference to this passage, in the Bible.

Thanks in advance.

menJesus greetings

I believe God spoke to Job regarding verses 20 and 21.

Job 38:15 "And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken"

The Lord asked Job, Job 40:9 "Hast thou an arm like God?--?"

Job 40:14 "Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee."

Eliphaz said, the spirit said, "they die even without wisdom".

IMO the light is Jesus and wisdom is Jesus or the Spirit.

Job said, Job 28:12 "But where shall wisdom be found?--?"

Elihu said, Job 33:27-28 "He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not; he will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light."

Elihu said, Job 33:33 "If not, hearken unto me: hold thy peace, and I shall teach thee wisdom.

The Lord said, Job 38:36 "Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?"

Proverbs 3:18 "She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her."

I realize that wisdom is in the feminine gender and I don't know Hebrew. But she founded the earth, and so did the Word. Also Adam was created both male and female in one person.

Proverbs 3:19 "The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding he established the heavens."

Proverbs 8:4 "Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man."

Proverbs 8:34 "Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors."

Revelation 3:20 "Behold I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

John 10:9 "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."

The Book of Job is not about a man suffering in patience, it is about God and his dealings with man. Man was created perfect and upright, had a perfect relationship with God until he fell. Job fell and he needed a redeemer to keep his soul from the pit.

Job 33:24 "Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom."

Then in verse 25 we see how man is born again. John 3:4 "Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

Job 33:25 "His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth."

How can your flesh be fresher than a child's, except in the mother's womb. A picture of rebirth. Of salvation.

terrell

tgallison
Apr 22nd 2008, 12:30 PM
Greetings...

This is Eliphaz The first of Job's three friends who come to attempt to explain to him WHY Job has been visited with his tribulations...

To understand his words, you need to be aware of who Eliphaz is and what he believed...

Eliphaz was Esau's first born with Adah. An assassin and the father of Amalek the ancestral enemy of Israel - He was bought off by Jacob (the guy he was supposed to assasinate).

Eliphaz has NO honor. He's trying to convince Job that he is being punished for some sin.

Eliphaz is basicly saying:

Oh dude! You've got to believe me! I saw it in a dream! I was SO Scared! It MUST be real!

But Job is no fool - he aint buying it. Eliphaz is basicly being a false prophet - and a poor one at that...

Kandaje greetings

Do you have proof other than a similar name that Eliphaz was a son of Esau?

Esau's son Eliphaz was the father of Teman from which came the Temanites.

Would the Eliphaz of the Book of Job be named after a people of his son, as being a Temanite?

The Bible says Eliphaz came to mourn with Job, and to comfort him. Doesn't sound like a really bad guy, does it?

When he saw Job, he wept, and rent his mantle, and sprinkled dust upon his head toward heaven. Doesn't sound like a really bad guy, does it?

Then he sat down on the ground for seven days and seven nights, and spoke not a word, because he could see the grief of Job was very great. Doesn't sound like a really bad guy, does it?

At the end of seven days and seven nights Job opened his mouth and cursed his day, cursed God's creation, and cursed his mother's womb. It was only after this that Eliphaz spoke.

Eliphaz was Job's friend and knew him well. Can't believe that Eliphaz came to lie about Job and do him harm.

terrell

Teke
Apr 22nd 2008, 12:32 PM
Teke Greetings

You are charging Eliphaz with lying, and you are doing so in order to defend Job.

Eliphaz said, a spirit spoke and said, shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Is it possible for a mortal man to be more just than God? Was this a lie?

terrell

Does Eliphaz sound more convincing to you because he began with "Now a thing was secretly brought to me, and mine ear received a little thereof."?

tgallison
Apr 22nd 2008, 12:41 PM
Does Eliphaz sound more convincing to you because he began with "Now a thing was secretly brought to me, and mine ear received a little thereof."?

Teke Greetings

Will repost what I just wrote to Kandaje for an answer.

(To Kandaje)
Do you have proof other than a similar name that Eliphaz was a son of Esau?

Esau's son Eliphaz was the father of Teman from which came the Temanites.

Would the Eliphaz of the Book of Job be named after a people of his son, as being a Temanite?

The Bible says Eliphaz came to mourn with Job, and to comfort him. Doesn't sound like a really bad guy, does it?

When he saw Job, he wept, and rent his mantle, and sprinkled dust upon his head toward heaven. Doesn't sound like a really bad guy, does it?

Then he sat down on the ground for seven days and seven nights, and spoke not a word, because he could see the grief of Job was very great. Doesn't sound like a really bad guy, does it?

At the end of seven days and seven nights Job opened his mouth and cursed his day, cursed God's creation, and cursed his mother's womb. It was only after this that Eliphaz spoke.

Eliphaz was Job's friend and knew him well. Can't believe that Eliphaz came to lie about Job and do him harm.

terrell

Brother Mark
Apr 22nd 2008, 12:41 PM
In the end, God judged Job's friends far more harshly than anyone else. That is a key to understanding things as well. That, and God declared Job more blameless than even Elihu in the beginning of the book.

Teke
Apr 22nd 2008, 12:59 PM
Teke Greetings

Will repost what I just wrote to Kandaje for an answer.

(To Kandaje)
Do you have proof other than a similar name that Eliphaz was a son of Esau?

Esau's son Eliphaz was the father of Teman from which came the Temanites.

Would the Eliphaz of the Book of Job be named after a people of his son, as being a Temanite?

The Bible says Eliphaz came to mourn with Job, and to comfort him. Doesn't sound like a really bad guy, does it?

When he saw Job, he wept, and rent his mantle, and sprinkled dust upon his head toward heaven. Doesn't sound like a really bad guy, does it?

Then he sat down on the ground for seven days and seven nights, and spoke not a word, because he could see the grief of Job was very great. Doesn't sound like a really bad guy, does it?

At the end of seven days and seven nights Job opened his mouth and cursed his day, cursed God's creation, and cursed his mother's womb. It was only after this that Eliphaz spoke.

Eliphaz was Job's friend and knew him well. Can't believe that Eliphaz came to lie about Job and do him harm.

terrell

Terrell I'm not saying he had bad intentions with Job, of course his intentions were good. Here is what I posted on Job's friends in another thread some time ago.



Eliphaz of Eman, in Idumea, was a son of Easu, and had a son called Teman, from whom his country took its name (Gen. 36:10,11). It was noted for its "wise men" (Jer. 49:7); and is mentioned with Edom (Amos 1:11,12). Compare Jer. 25:23, where both are connected with Buz, the brother of Uz (Gen. 22:21).
Eliphaz argued from the standpoint of human experience.

Bildad the Shuhite. Shuah was the sixth son of Abraham by Keturah (Gen. 25:2); and is mentioned in connection with Esau, Edom and Teman (Jer. 49:8)
Bildad argued from human tradition.

Zophar the Naamathite. Naamar (now Na'aneh, six miles south of Lod, in the lowlands of Judah).
Zophar argued from the ground of human merit.

Elihu (32:2) the Ram (Ram=Aram, related to Buz, Gen. 22:21). The ministry of Elihu, the mediator. He basically gives instruction that one cannot justify themselves as righteous, only God makes one righteous. And this is what has happened to Job. God is making him righteous.



That is my perspective of Job's friends. :)

tgallison
Apr 22nd 2008, 01:30 PM
In the end, God judged Job's friends far more harshly than anyone else. That is a key to understanding things as well. That, and God declared Job more blameless than even Elihu in the beginning of the book.

Brother Mark Greetings

The Lord said, the three friends did not say the right thing of the Lord. Job did not say the right thing until the end. Notice also that Job was not lifted up until after the three friends obeyed the Lord.

Job 42:9 "So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the Lord commanded them: the Lord also accepted Job."

What did Job say that was right to God? Was it not repentance? Job 42:6 "Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." Is not this the Baptism of repentance for the remission of sins?

This is what Elihu told Job to do. Job 33:27 He looketh upon men, and If any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not; He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.? Job 33:24 "Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom. (Jesus)

Job was blameless like Adam, and like Satan, until iniquity was found in him.

The Book of Job is full of Job's iniquity.

To place Job above Elihu is to place man above God, unless you believe Elihu was lying also.

Elihu (God himself, or God with us, whichever definition one chooses) declared himself to be in God's place, speaking for God.

Job 33:6 "Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay."

Job 36:2 "Suffer me a little, and I will shew thee that I have yet to speak on God's behalf."

Job 36:4 "For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee"

Pretty strong statements for a man to make.

I am not saying that Elihu was God, only that God spoke through him as Job requested.

What Elihu said is what the Lord repeats afterwards.

terrell

Brother Mark
Apr 22nd 2008, 01:35 PM
I know Elihu spoke for God. But I also know he was a man. And I know what God said about Job in comparison to all men.

Job 1:1

1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job, and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God, and turning away from evil.
NASB

One cannot turn away from evil without turning to God. For if one has never turned to God, he is still in evil! Proverbs says it is the fear of the Lord that will keep a man from evil.

Job 1:7-8
8 And the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
NASB

When God spoke the above verse, Elihu was on the earth. Job was above Elihu in that there "was no one like him on the earth". He was blameless before God. He was an upright man. He feared God, the beginning of wisdom. He turned away from evil, which meant, he had turned to God.

We know even more of Job when he said "I know my redeemer lives".

I know your belief system on Job. I disagree with it because of these things. They are simple things. Job was to pray for his friends before they were restored. They had spoken wrongly of Job. Elihu was spared because he spoke rightly concerning God.

tgallison
Apr 22nd 2008, 04:14 PM
I know Elihu spoke for God. But I also know he was a man. And I know what God said about Job in comparison to all men.

Job 1:1

1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job, and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God, and turning away from evil.
NASB Satan was created perfect and blameless, and Adam was created perfect and blameless, until iniquity was found in them. Job was called perfect and blameless, Saul/Paul declared himself perfect and blameless and we know he feared God, while yet he was persecuting Christians.

Adam needed a redeemer, Job needed a redeemer, and Saul needed a redeemer. No comment on Satan.


One cannot turn away from evil without turning to God. For if one has never turned to God, he is still in evil! Proverbs says it is the fear of the Lord that will keep a man from evil. Again, Paul feared God, while yet he was unredeemed.


Job 1:7-8
8 And the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
NASB

When God spoke the above verse, Elihu was on the earth. Job was above Elihu in that there "was no one like him on the earth". He was blameless before God. He was an upright man. He feared God, the beginning of wisdom. He turned away from evil, which meant, he had turned to God. Yes, but Job knew not where to find wisdom. Elihu said, Job 33:32-33 "If thou hast any thing to say, answer me: speak, for I desire to justify thee. If not, hearken unto me; hold thy peace, and I shall teach thee wisdom"

Regarding Elihu, when Elihu spoke they were amazed, and every mouth was shut, not so with Job.


We know even more of Job when he said "I know my redeemer lives". Fenris says the same thing.


I know your belief system on Job. I disagree with it because of these things. They are simple things. Job was to pray for his friends before they were restored. They had spoken wrongly of Job. Elihu was spared because he spoke rightly concerning God.Job said, Job 16:21 "O that one might plead for a man with God, as a man pleadeth for his neighbour!

God answers prayer.

terrell

tgallison
Apr 24th 2008, 02:41 AM
Brother Mark Greetings


I know your belief system on Job. I disagree with it because of these things. They are simple things. Job was to pray for his friends before they were restored. They had spoken wrongly of Job. Elihu was spared because he spoke rightly concerning God.

You say the three friends had spoken wrongly of Job. Neither my translation nor your translation says that.

Job 42:7 "---, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath."

It was not what they said about Job, but what they did not say to God. Elihu had told them what they needed to say, and Job said it.

Job 33:27-28 "He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not: He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light."

God was speaking through Elihu, I don't know how Elihu could have said anything wrong.

Grace and peace, terrell

Brother Mark
Apr 24th 2008, 02:49 AM
Satan was created perfect and blameless, and Adam was created perfect and blameless, until iniquity was found in them. Job was called perfect and blameless, Saul/Paul declared himself perfect and blameless and we know he feared God, while yet he was persecuting Christians.

Paul called himself blameless but God did not! Adam was blameless before he sinned. Before he sinned he did not need a redeemer! Job was blameless because he KNEW his redeemer lived. Are you saying that Job reached adulthood without ever sinning before his trial and was therefor blameless? Paul was clearly a sinner and not blameless before God as he said in Timothy. Job, on the other hand, was blameless before God.


Adam needed a redeemer, Job needed a redeemer, and Saul needed a redeemer. No comment on Satan.

Adam only needed a redeemer after he sinned. Job was blameless because he knew his Redeemer lived. All men since Adam need a redeemer.


Again, Paul feared God, while yet he was unredeemed.

Paul did not fear God as Job did. Because Paul was caught up in the worst kind of Sin and he persecuted God! He did not fear Him whom he persecuted. Once God confronted Him, he then began to fear God. As the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Paul didn't start learning till he was saw Stephen stoned and was pricked to the heart. Then his fear came full upon him on the road to Damascus.


Yes, but Job knew not where to find wisdom. Elihu said, Job 33:32-33 "If thou hast any thing to say, answer me: speak, for I desire to justify thee. If not, hearken unto me; hold thy peace, and I shall teach thee wisdom"

Job had much to learn! But his wisdom was illustrated early on in how he interceded for his family and that God considered him blameless. A man cannot be blameless and redeemerless.


Job said, Job 16:21 "O that one might plead for a man with God, as a man pleadeth for his neighbour!

God answers prayer.

Yes he does. But it was no mistake on God's part to have those men go to Job for help. They were to ask prayer of the same man they accused of being away from God. God knew what he was doing!

thethirdtuttle
Apr 24th 2008, 04:01 AM
I just got done reading an awesome book by Mike Mason called "The Gospel According to Job," which is basically a devotional that works its way through the book of Job, explaining what's going on. Basically, the idea is that while Job's friends mean well and are trying to help him, all they are really doing is showing how little they truly understand God. You see, in their theology, the wicked are punished and the righteous are blessed, and that's it. End of story. Therefore, they wholeheartedly believe that the suffering that Job is going through is due to some hidden sin that he is too stubborn, proud or embarassed to admit to, and if he were to only confess and repent, God would restore his fortunes and everything would go back to the way they were supposed to be. Thankfully, Job knows differently. He understands, however dimly, that there is a personal force of evil (Satan), and that that is why he is suffering, not because of any sin on his part. Job is well aware of the fact that he is a sinner, just like every other human being on the planet, but he also knows that there is no sin that he has committed that warrants the kind of suffering that he is going through. Throughout the whole book, the friends are basically saying, "Look, Job, as soon as you confess and repent of whatever sin it is that you have done that has brought this divine displeasure down on yourself, God will stop punishing you, and we can all go back to our comfortable little lives." And the whole time, Job is saying right back, "Look, I know I'm a sinner; everybody is. But I know that there is nothing I've done that causes me to deserve this! Don't you guys get it? I haven't sinned!" The problem is that neither Job, nor his friends, know that the ultimate reason for Job's suffering was to prove to Satan that Job's faith in God was not based just on material blessing. Rather, it was based on Job's innate understanding and trust in God's complete and total faithfulness, even when his circumstances tried to tell him otherwise. Job had no knowlege of Satan or what happened in God's throne room at the beginning of the book, so his only recourse, in his ignorance, was to assume that his suffering was brought about by God Himself. Job never flagged in his faith in God, though, which is evidenced by his statement that, "though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him." Job knew that God could be trusted, no matter what, even if he didn't always understand what God was doing. Job's friends needed to be prayed for by Job at the end because of their flawed theology that didn't allow for either Satan or for the suffering of the righteous. They meant well, but their words did more harm than good because they didn't meet Job's deep need for intimacy with God. Just some things to think about.

Yours in Him,

Benjamin

tgallison
Apr 25th 2008, 12:36 AM
I just got done reading an awesome book by Mike Mason called "The Gospel According to Job," which is basically a devotional that works its way through the book of Job, explaining what's going on. Basically, the idea is that while Job's friends mean well and are trying to help him, all they are really doing is showing how little they truly understand God. You see, in their theology, the wicked are punished and the righteous are blessed, and that's it. End of story. Therefore, they wholeheartedly believe that the suffering that Job is going through is due to some hidden sin that he is too stubborn, proud or embarassed to admit to, and if he were to only confess and repent, God would restore his fortunes and everything would go back to the way they were supposed to be. Thankfully, Job knows differently. He understands, however dimly, that there is a personal force of evil (Satan), and that that is why he is suffering, not because of any sin on his part. Job is well aware of the fact that he is a sinner, just like every other human being on the planet, but he also knows that there is no sin that he has committed that warrants the kind of suffering that he is going through. Throughout the whole book, the friends are basically saying, "Look, Job, as soon as you confess and repent of whatever sin it is that you have done that has brought this divine displeasure down on yourself, God will stop punishing you, and we can all go back to our comfortable little lives." And the whole time, Job is saying right back, "Look, I know I'm a sinner; everybody is. But I know that there is nothing I've done that causes me to deserve this! Don't you guys get it? I haven't sinned!" The problem is that neither Job, nor his friends, know that the ultimate reason for Job's suffering was to prove to Satan that Job's faith in God was not based just on material blessing. Rather, it was based on Job's innate understanding and trust in God's complete and total faithfulness, even when his circumstances tried to tell him otherwise. Job had no knowlege of Satan or what happened in God's throne room at the beginning of the book, so his only recourse, in his ignorance, was to assume that his suffering was brought about by God Himself. Job never flagged in his faith in God, though, which is evidenced by his statement that, "though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him." Job knew that God could be trusted, no matter what, even if he didn't always understand what God was doing. Job's friends needed to be prayed for by Job at the end because of their flawed theology that didn't allow for either Satan or for the suffering of the righteous. They meant well, but their words did more harm than good because they didn't meet Job's deep need for intimacy with God. Just some things to think about.

Yours in Him,

Benjamin

Benjamin Greetings

I have finished reading an awesome book by God, called the Book of Job.

In the only discourse that God had with Job himself, there were 296 verses that were critical of Job. The only thing God had to say positive to Job was in the last chapter after Job said, I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Which book is the true book?

Best regards, terrell

tgallison
Apr 25th 2008, 01:45 AM
]Paul called himself blameless but God did not![/B] Adam was blameless before he sinned. Before he sinned he did not need a redeemer! Job was blameless because he KNEW his redeemer lived. Are you saying that Job reached adulthood without ever sinning before his trial and was therefor blameless? Paul was clearly a sinner and not blameless before God as he said in Timothy. Job, on the other hand, was blameless before God.

Brother Mark Greetings

You are saying Paul was in error.

What other errors did Paul make in the Epistles?

Are you saying we cannot trust the Epistles?

terrell

Brother Mark
Apr 25th 2008, 02:11 AM
Brother Mark Greetings

You are saying Paul was in error.

What other errors did Paul make in the Epistles?

Are you saying we cannot trust the Epistles?

terrell

Paul was making a valid point. He was blameless but not before God. I am not saying he was making an error. He was clear. He considered himself blameless all the while he was going straight to hell. God did not consider him blameless and that is why he had a road to Damascus experience.

God considered Job blameless.

There's a big difference between the two. Job was a greater man in the eyes of God than Elihu and that is why God pointed him out to Satan. There was not another man like Job in all the world!

tgallison
Apr 25th 2008, 12:55 PM
Paul was making a valid point. He was blameless but not before God. I am not saying he was making an error. He was clear. He considered himself blameless all the while he was going straight to hell. God did not consider him blameless and that is why he had a road to Damascus experience.

Brother Mark Greetings

Philippians 3:4-7 "Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me , those I counted loss for Christ."

God was saying the same thing to Satan about Job, that Paul was saying about himself.

If Paul was blameless in the Law, and that is all Paul knew that was expected of him by God, why would he not be blameless before God? Why did God choose him alone to reach the whole Gentile world? He is the only Apostle called the Apostle to the Gentiles.

Yes Paul was going straight to hell without a rebirth experience. God got his attention by striking him blind. God also got Job's attention as well.

Yes, Job was blameless in the flesh, so much so he didn't need God's righteousness, he felt his own righteousness was sufficient.

God said to Job, "Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me that thou mayest be righteous?" (Job 40:8)

In Jesus Christ, terrell

Brother Mark
Apr 25th 2008, 01:06 PM
Brother Mark Greetings

Philippians 3:4-7 "Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me , those I counted loss for Christ."

God was saying the same thing to Satan about Job, that Paul was saying about himself.

If Paul was blameless in the Law, and that is all Paul knew that was expected of him by God, why would he not be blameless before God? Why did God choose him alone to reach the whole Gentile world? He is the only Apostle called the Apostle to the Gentiles.

And yet, when Paul understood the truth, he wrote this about himself...

1 Tim 1:15-17
15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16 And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
NASB

God did not consider Paul blameless until he was saved. One is not qualified to be an elder until they are saved. Yet, God says the elder must be blameless. This is not a blamelessness according to the law. But one that comes from being in Christ.

Paul considered himself blameless when he was lost. That is what the passage in Philippians is about. But we see in Timothy, that he was indeed not only a sinner, but one of the worst sinners ever!

Job was blameless in the eyes of God but Paul was not.



Yes Paul was going straight to hell without a rebirth experience. God got his attention by striking him blind. God also got Job's attention as well.

Yes, Job was blameless in the flesh, so much so he didn't need God's righteousness, he felt his own righteousness was sufficient.

God said to Job, "Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me that thou mayest be righteous?" (Job 40:8)

In Jesus Christ, terrell



Job had things to learn. But God considered him one of the greatest men in the entire world. In God's eyes, Job was a blameless man. Nothing else need be said. When God judges a man blameless, he is not holding sin to his account. The man is righteous.

God puts a hedge around those that fear him. Job had a hedge. Job was God's man from the beginning of Job.

tgallison
Apr 25th 2008, 02:33 PM
And yet, when Paul understood the truth, he wrote this about himself...

1 Tim 1:15-17
15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16 And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
NASB

God did not consider Paul blameless until he was saved. One is not qualified to be an elder until they are saved. Yet, God says the elder must be blameless. This is not a blamelessness according to the law. But one that comes from being in Christ.

Paul considered himself blameless when he was lost. That is what the passage in Philippians is about. But we see in Timothy, that he was indeed not only a sinner, but one of the worst sinners ever!

Job was blameless in the eyes of God but Paul was not.

Brother Mark Greetings

Paul was saved and well aware he was a sinner when he made the statement, that in the flesh he was blameless.

God was speaking to the king of pride, Satan, when he made the statement that Job was blameless in the flesh. Job was flirting with Satan, as seen in the following dialogue between God and Job.

Job 41:3-4 "Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee? Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant forever?"

Job 41:34 "He beholdeth all high things: he is king over all the children of pride."

And then we have the reason for the whole Book of Job.

Job 33:14-15 "For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;"

Job 7:13-14 "When I say, My bed shall comfort me, my couch shall ease my complaint; Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:"

Job 33:19-22 "He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and multitude of his bones with strong pain: So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat. His flesh is consumed away that it cannot be seen; and his bones that were not seen stick out. Yea , his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers."

Job 7:4-5 "When I lie down, I say, When shall I arise, and the night be gone? and I am full of tossings to and fro unto the dawning of the day. My flesh is clothed with worms and clods of dust; my skin is broken, and become loathsome."

If there is a witness to show Job God's righteousness, to show him the lamb that was ransomed for him then-----

Job 33:24 "Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom."

In Jesus Christ, terrell

tgallison
Apr 26th 2008, 12:53 PM
Job had things to learn. But God considered him one of the greatest men in the entire world. In God's eyes, Job was a blameless man. Nothing else need be said. When God judges a man blameless, he is not holding sin to his account. The man is righteous.

God puts a hedge around those that fear him. Job had a hedge. Job was God's man from the beginning of Job.

Brother Mark Greetings

God did not say Job was one of the greatest men in the entire world because of who he was, but because of what he possessed. God had given him his possessions. He was chosen by God. He was God's hired servant.

He was a good hired servant, blameless in the flesh in his duties.

He had never met his master. He was contracted by word of mouth.

Job 23:3 "Oh that I knew where I might find him! that I might come to even to his seat."

Matter of fact when things got a little rough, he wished to be separated from his master. Job 3:13 "For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest. (19) The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master."

God does not regard one person above another, he has made us all.

While Job was condemning God, God had Elihu say this to him. Job 34:16-19 "If now thou hast understanding, hear this : hearken to voice of my words. Shall even he that hateth right govern? and wilt thou condemn him that is most just? Is it fit to say to a king, Thou art wicked? and to princes, Ye are ungodly? How much less to him that accepteth not the persons of princes, nor regardeth the rich more than the poor? for they all are the work of his hands."

terrell

Brother Mark
Apr 26th 2008, 02:40 PM
Brother Mark Greetings

God did not say Job was one of the greatest men in the entire world because of who he was, but because of what he possessed. God had given him his possessions. He was chosen by God. He was God's hired servant.

He was a good hired servant, blameless in the flesh in his duties.

He had never met his master. He was contracted by word of mouth.

I suppose we can go round and round. But it wasn't Job's possessions that impressed God, it was his character. The main question of Job... will a man serve God for nothing? Was answered with a resounding yes!

Job 1:8-9
8 And the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
NASB

When God described Job, he said nothing of his possessions. Though the enemy did. God's point was Job was a man of great character. One cannot turn away from evil outside of the helping hand of God.

Job 1:9-10
9 Then Satan answered the Lord, "Does Job fear God for nothing?
NASB

A great question that is often asked today. The answer... Yes. A man will serve God for no material blessings!

Job 1:10
10 "Hast Thou not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side?
NASB

God had protected Job. We know from Psalms and Proverbs who it is that God protects with a hedge.

Ps 34:7
7 The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him,
And rescues them.
NASB

The angel of the Lord encamped around Job.

There were many things Job did not understand and God taught him. But he did know God and was saved. He knew his redeemer lived and he was a man unlike any man in the entire world! God saw his character as so great, that there was no one like him in all the earth in his blamelessness and uprightness, including Elihu.

Job was severely tested and learned that God was God and could do as he pleased. We know His ways are not our ways. Elihu spoke well of God and was not chastised. But if Elihu was a man, he was not on par with Job when it comes to the things that God valued. God said it not once, but twice that there was no man like Job in character in all the world.

After Job lost all his possession, God said this about him a second time.

Job 2:2-3
3 And the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to ruin him without cause."
NASB

God was not speaking of Job's wealth or material status when he said this about Job. He was speaking about the man's character and integrity. One cannot be good without God and yet, God called this man good. There was no reason for God to judge this man. Or as he said earlier

Job 1:22

22 Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God.
NASB

Job was without sin. The only way that was possible was through the power of God. For all have sinned! Yet, Job, did not sin through this testing. Why? Because he was a mighty man of God. Not a man that God had hired with wealth as God proved by allowing Satan to take away all his wealth.

tgallison
Apr 26th 2008, 07:52 PM
I suppose we can go round and round. But it wasn't Job's possessions that impressed God, it was his character. The main question of Job... will a man serve God for nothing? Was answered with a resounding yes!

Job 1:8-9
8 And the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
NASB

When God described Job, he said nothing of his possessions. Though the enemy did. God's point was Job was a man of great character. One cannot turn away from evil outside of the helping hand of God.

You say, "When God described Job, he said nothing of his possessions."

I would say in light of chapter 1 verse 3, that your statement is incorrect.

Job 1:3 "His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east."

It says, so that, and the reason being, his substance and his household.

Job passed the first test, and he was perfect. However on the second test he failed miserably, and in order to understand that you have to read past the second chapter.

The reason he failed was that he didn't know the Master.

In order to endure the physical pain that Stephen, Paul, and others endured as martyrs you need God's Spirit.

You did not hear Paul and Stephen cursing the day they were born, they were serving God, yet He allowed them to suffer beyond understanding.

Listen to what Stephen said as they gnashed on him with their teeth, and stoned him to death. Acts 7:60 "And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge, And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

And what about Paul? 2 Corithians 11:22-27 "Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. O the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep: In journeyings often, in perils of water, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren: In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness."

Did either Stephen or Paul condemn God, and declare their righteousness greater than God's? Job did.

terrell

thethirdtuttle
Apr 28th 2008, 05:21 AM
tgallison:

I have some genuine and sincere questions for you, and would appreciate simple and straightforward answers. What is your objection to, exactly? Are you just arguing for argument's sake? Do you not like the fact that Job complained to God about his situation? Or that God declared him righteous in spite of that? If you actually look at the intent behind Job's words, as well as those of his friends, you would see a world of difference between the two. While Job trusted God enough to know the Lord was big enough to handle his complaining and take it in stride, all Job's friends could do was offer pious platitudes about how majestic and wonderful God is. While what they said was true, it didn't do Job a whit of good because it wasn't spoken from a heart of compassion. Like I think I might've mentioned in a previous post, all they wanted was for Job to repent of whatever sin was causing all his suffering so that they could go back to their comfortable little lives, and stop having to sit in the town dump, watching Job scratch the oozing sores all over his body with a broken potsherd and waving away the flies. They were so deadset on believing that Job somehow deserved what he was getting, and convinced that he had sinned, that they didn't believe him when he told them he hadn't. You see, there was a HUGE qualitative difference between the faith of Job, and that of his friends. While Job had a vibrant, living, honest relationship with God where he felt comfortable enough with Him to talk about anything and everything that was going on in his life, while still according Him the reverence and fear He deserved, the faith of Job's friends was dead, lifeless, and had been basically reduced to intellectual knowledge, where all they could do was talk about God, not directly to Him. So, what it basically boils down to is that while Job knew that his suffering was not as a result of any sin he committed, he mistakenly, due to ignorance of the existence of Satan, attributed it to God. On the other hand, his friends believed that Job's suffering had to be the result of some hidden sin that Job was not willing to confess and repent of, and once he did, everything would go back to the way it had been before, and their theology, however flawed it was, would be vindicated. After all, legalists love nothing more than to be proven right. But, Job knew it wasn't quite that simple and straightforward. Besides all that, Job knew that no matter how much he complained and implored God to vindicate him, God could handle it. After all, He's God. It's not like He's up there in Heaven, biting His fingernails, saying, "Oh my gosh! Job thinks his situation sucks and is begging me to vindicate him. How am I going to handle this one? I have no idea! What am I going to do?" Preposterous! And yet, that it what you seem to be suggesting. That Job railing against God is somehow this absolutely horrible terrible sin, and that Elihu is so much better than Job. Why?! Because he claims to have been visited in the night by a spirit, and that somehow validates that he is speaking on behalf of God. Lots of people claim to be speak for God when they really aren't. Should we start believing all of them, as well? I think not. Besides that, every time an angel from the Lord visited someone in the Old Testament, the first thing they said was something to the effect of, "Fear not! I have good news to share with you." That is because their appearance was quite majestic and overwhelming. The "spirit" that supposedly visited Elihu in the middle of the night said nothing like that. Instead, he started into a tirade about how man cannot be justified before God, etc. Sounds more like condemnation than "good news" to me! Both Brother Mark and I (and others, no doubt) have brought up excellent points, and yet you seem to dogmatically stick to your particular interpretation of the book of Job. Could you be right and we be wrong? That's certainly a possibility, but it seems as though you are not willing to be open to the possibility that you might be wrong and we might be right. Of course, I could be misinterpreting your comments, so if I am please forgive and correct me. I just would like some clarification as to why you feel so strongly about this particular topic.

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 10:53 AM
You say, "When God described Job, he said nothing of his possessions."

I would say in light of chapter 1 verse 3, that your statement is incorrect.

Job 1:3 "His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east."

It says, so that, and the reason being, his substance and his household.

Job passed the first test, and he was perfect. However on the second test he failed miserably, and in order to understand that you have to read past the second chapter.

The reason he failed was that he didn't know the Master.

As I said before, the passage I quoted came after Job had lost everything. Thus, the greatness he held in God's eyes was not because of his wealth. Here is the passage again. This is how God described Job when Job had nothing.

Job 2:3
3 And the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to ruin him without cause."
NASB

God said this about Job when Job had nothing. There was no one like Job in all the earth when it came to his blamelessness, his fear of God, his eschewing evil and his integrity. God knew this but Satan did not. Job was a great man in the eyes of God and greater than Elihu in these character traits that God mentioned. And God said this when Job had nothing because he had allowed Satan to steal it all.


In order to endure the physical pain that Stephen, Paul, and others endured as martyrs you need God's Spirit.

You did not hear Paul and Stephen cursing the day they were born, they were serving God, yet He allowed them to suffer beyond understanding.

Listen to what Stephen said as they gnashed on him with their teeth, and stoned him to death. Acts 7:60 "And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge, And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

And what about Paul? 2 Corithians 11:22-27 "Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. O the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep: In journeyings often, in perils of water, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren: In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness."

Did either Stephen or Paul condemn God, and declare their righteousness greater than God's? Job did.

terrell



Job had the fruit of the Spirit as we discover in the NT. Job was actually considered a prophet by James.

James 5:10-11

10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
KJV

Job had much endurance according to James. And this is what James said about endurance.

James 1:3-5

3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
KJV

This is the process God took Job through.

As God said, Job was a great man and there was none like him in all the earth. He said that about Job after Job had no wealth in the natural. But his wealth was on high.

tgallison
Apr 28th 2008, 04:02 PM
tgallison:

I have some genuine and sincere questions for you, and would appreciate simple and straightforward answers. What is your objection to, exactly? Are you just arguing for argument's sake? Do you not like the fact that Job complained to God about his situation? Or that God declared him righteous in spite of that? If you actually look at the intent behind Job's words, as well as those of his friends, you would see a world of difference between the two. While Job trusted God enough to know the Lord was big enough to handle his complaining and take it in stride, all Job's friends could do was offer pious platitudes about how majestic and wonderful God is. While what they said was true, it didn't do Job a whit of good because it wasn't spoken from a heart of compassion. Like I think I might've mentioned in a previous post, all they wanted was for Job to repent of whatever sin was causing all his suffering so that they could go back to their comfortable little lives, and stop having to sit in the town dump, watching Job scratch the oozing sores all over his body with a broken potsherd and waving away the flies. They were so deadset on believing that Job somehow deserved what he was getting, and convinced that he had sinned, that they didn't believe him when he told them he hadn't. You see, there was a HUGE qualitative difference between the faith of Job, and that of his friends. While Job had a vibrant, living, honest relationship with God where he felt comfortable enough with Him to talk about anything and everything that was going on in his life, while still according Him the reverence and fear He deserved, the faith of Job's friends was dead, lifeless, and had been basically reduced to intellectual knowledge, where all they could do was talk about God, not directly to Him. So, what it basically boils down to is that while Job knew that his suffering was not as a result of any sin he committed, he mistakenly, due to ignorance of the existence of Satan, attributed it to God. On the other hand, his friends believed that Job's suffering had to be the result of some hidden sin that Job was not willing to confess and repent of, and once he did, everything would go back to the way it had been before, and their theology, however flawed it was, would be vindicated. After all, legalists love nothing more than to be proven right. But, Job knew it wasn't quite that simple and straightforward. Besides all that, Job knew that no matter how much he complained and implored God to vindicate him, God could handle it. After all, He's God. It's not like He's up there in Heaven, biting His fingernails, saying, "Oh my gosh! Job thinks his situation sucks and is begging me to vindicate him. How am I going to handle this one? I have no idea! What am I going to do?" Preposterous! And yet, that it what you seem to be suggesting. That Job railing against God is somehow this absolutely horrible terrible sin, and that Elihu is so much better than Job. Why?! Because he claims to have been visited in the night by a spirit, and that somehow validates that he is speaking on behalf of God. Lots of people claim to be speak for God when they really aren't. Should we start believing all of them, as well? I think not. Besides that, every time an angel from the Lord visited someone in the Old Testament, the first thing they said was something to the effect of, "Fear not! I have good news to share with you." That is because their appearance was quite majestic and overwhelming. The "spirit" that supposedly visited Elihu in the middle of the night said nothing like that. Instead, he started into a tirade about how man cannot be justified before God, etc. Sounds more like condemnation than "good news" to me! Both Brother Mark and I (and others, no doubt) have brought up excellent points, and yet you seem to dogmatically stick to your particular interpretation of the book of Job. Could you be right and we be wrong? That's certainly a possibility, but it seems as though you are not willing to be open to the possibility that you might be wrong and we might be right. Of course, I could be misinterpreting your comments, so if I am please forgive and correct me. I just would like some clarification as to why you feel so strongly about this particular topic.

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin

Benjamin Greetings

No I am not arguing for arguments sake. I love the book of Job, and Job as well. He is God's chosen. Much like Israel.

My debate is over truth, at least what I perceive to be truth. Tradition holds that the Book of Job is about a special man that had the Spirit of God in him, and was left to suffer by God at the hands of Satan. That he had to suffer unjustly, and without cause, yet he persevered and triumphed in the end. Thus you have the question why do we have to suffer without cause? Or why did Job suffer?

If there were only three chapters to the Book of Job, one would have to agree with tradition, but there are not only three chapters, there are forty two chapters.

The Book of Job is a beautiful book of God's grace to man and of salvation. Cover your mind to the first two chapters, and start with an open mind to the next thirty nine chapters and then go back and read the first two, and the last chapter. Perhaps you will have a whole new outlook on the Book of Job.

terrell

thethirdtuttle
Apr 28th 2008, 11:06 PM
tgallison:

I have read through the entire book of Job before; it has been a while, though, so I think I might just do so again some time in the near future, because this discussion has piqued my interest. It will be interesting to see if my opinions will change as a result.

Having said that, I am curious about something: What did you think about the other things I mentioned in my post? I would gather from your most recent post that you would disagree with my assessment of the text. Or is that an unfair assumption? If you do disagree, what do you base it on? Anything actually in the text, or on your preconceived notions about what the text says, with no basis in fact? Please don't misunderstand me; I'm not trying to judge you or anyone else. I just am trying to exhort and encourage all of us, myself included, to honestly and openly look at the text, prayerfully consider what it says and what that means for our lives, and apply it properly, with God's help.

I also have some further comments I would like to add to my previous rant. First, I agree wholeheartedly that Job is a "beautiful book of God's grace to man and salvation," as you so eloquently state it. However, I think we have to be careful not to over-spiritualize God's word. While it's great to be able to discover great spiritual truths in the Bible that you can then apply to your own life, more power to you! But to take it to the extreme of attaching deep symbolic meaning to every little detail does damage to the original intent of the text of Scripture. Yes, every detail that God chooses to include is important and can be learned from, but to hyper-spiritualize everything and think there is deep symbolic significance to every tiny little detail is, IMHO, over-reaching ourselves and going beyond the original intent of the text. After all, as Sigmund Freud once observed, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

Another question for you: do you think that Job was a literal, flesh and blood human being, who actually lived in the land of Uz before the flood and suffered greatly at the hands of Satan, or do you believe that his story is merely symbolic and allegorical? If you believe that Job was merely a symbol and an allegory, included in the Bible just to symbolize God's salvation, you and I would fundamentally disagree. Do I think that we can learn about how God works through the book of Job? Absolutely! But that does not take away from the fact that he was a real, living, factual, historical human being who actually walked this earth. How do I know this? Because, in the verses from James quoted by Brother Mark in his most recent post, James, the half-brother of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, refers to the "perserverance of Job," not "the symbol of Job, which actually represents the nation of Israel," or something similar. Why would James, under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit, refer to Job as an actual human being, if his story was only a symbol or allegory?

You also state in your last post that tradition states that, "Job suffered unjustly, and without cause." I would disagree with that, because the author of Job makes it very clear that there is a purpose and reason for Job's suffering, but that it is not made known to him. HUGE difference! God always has a reason for doing what He does, and He is under no obligation whatsoever to explain Himself or His reasons to us. At times, He may graciously and mercifully do so, but most of the time, we just have to trust that He knows better than we do what's best for us. The suffering of Job had a very distinct purpose, and that was to refine and strengthen Job's faith in God, even when his circumstances seemed to scream that God couldn't be trusted. Also, it had the affect of showing that the faith of Job's friends was based on intellectual knowlege about God, not a vibrant relationship with God, and that it left no room for a personal source of evil (Satan). Yes, Job was ignorant of Satan, as well, but his ignorance didn't stop him from trusting God. While all Job's friends could do was offer him pious platitudes about God, which didn't help Job a bit, at least Job was honest enough with God to admit that he didn't like his situation, and wanted God to meet with him face-to-face so that Job could prove to his friends that his suffering was not the result of some hidden sin that Job was refusing to confess and repent of.

It's like this: while Job's friends meant well, and made at least an attempt at trying to help Job, they were so offended at Job's gut-level honesty that all they could do was malign his character, even though they knew what they were saying wasn't true. One of the points of the book of Job is that God honors, appreciates and even wants us to be gut-level honest with Him, even (or especially) when we don't like what's going on in our lives. He likes that much better than if we were to constantly paste a pious smile on our faces and claim everything is just (OH NO! Not the Christian f-word!) fine. That is lying, as far as God is concerned, and while you may fool some people with it for a little while, you are not fooling yourself. More importantly, you are not fooling God. Better to just be open and honest and real with Him and with Christian friends you know and trust. That is SO much healthier and better for everyone all around. While God never did answer Job directly, in the sense that He never told Job why he suffered the way he did, the answer God gave was satisfactory because Job understood, more fully than he ever did before, that God is sovereign, and has the right to do with His good creation whatever He wants. That's because He made it all, it all belongs to Him, and He knows what's best for each and every part of it, which includes both Job and us. Just some more things to think about.

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin

tgallison
Apr 29th 2008, 12:52 AM
[quote=thethirdtuttle;1620465]tgallison:

I have read through the entire book of Job before; it has been a while, though, so I think I might just do so again some time in the near future, because this discussion has piqued my interest. It will be interesting to see if my opinions will change as a result.

Having said that, I am curious about something: What did you think about the other things I mentioned in my post? I would gather from your most recent post that you would disagree with my assessment of the text. Or is that an unfair assumption? If you do disagree, what do you base it on? Anything actually in the text, or on your preconceived notions about what the text says, with no basis in fact? Please don't misunderstand me; I'm not trying to judge you or anyone else. I just am trying to exhort and encourage all of us, myself included, to honestly and openly look at the text, prayerfully consider what it says and what that means for our lives, and apply it properly, with God's help.

Benjamin Greetings

I did not reply to your text because you confused Elihu with Eliphaz. Elihu was not one of Job's friends, rather he was the daysman that Job requested from God, to be a mediator between God and himself. One that would not make him afraid, or terrify him. That is why God sent a man that was younger than Job and his friends.

Job said--

Job 9:32-35 "For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me."

Elihu said--

Job 33:5-7 "If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up. Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee."

Job 33:32 "If thou hast any thing to say, answer me: speak, for I desire to justify thee."


I also have some further comments I would like to add to my previous rant. First, I agree wholeheartedly that Job is a "beautiful book of God's grace to man and salvation," as you so eloquently state it. However, I think we have to be careful not to over-spiritualize God's word. While it's great to be able to discover great spiritual truths in the Bible that you can then apply to your own life, more power to you! But to take it to the extreme of attaching deep symbolic meaning to every little detail does damage to the original intent of the text of Scripture. Yes, every detail that God chooses to include is important and can be learned from, but to hyper-spiritualize everything and think there is deep symbolic significance to every tiny little detail is, IMHO, over-reaching ourselves and going beyond the original intent of the text. After all, as Sigmund Freud once observed, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

Agree completely. That is why when God says to Satan that Job is blameless and upright that I do not automatically interpret that as Job having eternal life, or God's righteousness. Especially in light of Saul/Paul saying the identical thing about himself, while he was yet persecuting the Church.

What Paul said when he was saved, about himself while he was not saved.

Philippians 3:6 "Concerning zeal, persecuting the church: touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless."

Job had plenty of zeal, but it was without knowledge. Job said--

Job 29:17 "And I brake the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth."

And then the Lord said to Job--

Job 38:2 "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

And then Paul said--

Romans 10:2-3 "For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

And then the Lord said to Job--

Job 40:8 "Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?"

Then Elihu, Job's mediator said--

Job 35:2 "Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?"

Then the spirit said--

Job 4:17 "Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?"

You can deny what the spirit said, and you can deny what Elihu said, but how do you deny what the Lord said?


Another question for you: do you think that Job was a literal, flesh and blood human being, who actually lived in the land of Uz before the flood and suffered greatly at the hands of Satan, or do you believe that his story is merely symbolic and allegorical? If you believe that Job was merely a symbol and an allegory, included in the Bible just to symbolize God's salvation, you and I would fundamentally disagree. Do I think that we can learn about how God works through the book of Job? Absolutely! But that does not take away from the fact that he was a real, living, factual, historical human being who actually walked this earth. How do I know this? Because, in the verses from James quoted by Brother Mark in his most recent post, James, the half-brother of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, refers to the "perserverance of Job," not "the symbol of Job, which actually represents the nation of Israel," or something similar. Why would James, under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit, refer to Job as an actual human being, if his story was only a symbol or allegory?

I take the whole Bible literally unless it says otherwise.



You also state in your last post that tradition states that, "Job suffered unjustly, and without cause." I would disagree with that, because the author of Job makes it very clear that there is a purpose and reason for Job's suffering, but that it is not made known to him. HUGE difference! God always has a reason for doing what He does, and He is under no obligation whatsoever to explain Himself or His reasons to us. At times, He may graciously and mercifully do so, but most of the time, we just have to trust that He knows better than we do what's best for us. The suffering of Job had a very distinct purpose, and that was to refine and strengthen Job's faith in God, even when his circumstances seemed to scream that God couldn't be trusted. Also, it had the affect of showing that the faith of Job's friends was based on intellectual knowlege about God, not a vibrant relationship with God, and that it left no room for a personal source of evil (Satan). Yes, Job was ignorant of Satan, as well, but his ignorance didn't stop him from trusting God. While all Job's friends could do was offer him pious platitudes about God, which didn't help Job a bit, at least Job was honest enough with God to admit that he didn't like his situation, and wanted God to meet with him face-to-face so that Job could prove to his friends that his suffering was not the result of some hidden sin that Job was refusing to confess and repent of.

Would you say God put Job to a test twice, and if so how did Job fare?


It's like this: while Job's friends meant well, and made at least an attempt at trying to help Job, they were so offended at Job's gut-level honesty that all they could do was malign his character, even though they knew what they were saying wasn't true. One of the points of the book of Job is that God honors, appreciates and even wants us to be gut-level honest with Him, even (or especially) when we don't like what's going on in our lives. He likes that much better than if we were to constantly paste a pious smile on our faces and claim everything is just (OH NO! Not the Christian f-word!) fine. That is lying, as far as God is concerned, and while you may fool some people with it for a little while, you are not fooling yourself. More importantly, you are not fooling God. Better to just be open and honest and real with Him and with Christian friends you know and trust. That is SO much healthier and better for everyone all around. While God never did answer Job directly, in the sense that He never told Job why he suffered the way he did, the answer God gave was satisfactory because Job understood, more fully than he ever did before, that God is sovereign, and has the right to do with His good creation whatever He wants. That's because He made it all, it all belongs to Him, and He knows what's best for each and every part of it, which includes both Job and us. Just some more things to think about.
Yours in Christ,
Benjamin


Disagree that Job didn't know why he suffered.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

Teke
Apr 29th 2008, 01:09 PM
Elihu is a young one full of pride, but to his credit he wants it understood that Job is righteous only according to God. I noted the poster "thethirdtuttle" posted that Elihu spoke in relation to a spirit, which is incorrect. He spoke according to his own mind, he's so puffed up with pride he just has to speak.
His pride is manifested in four ways in his arrogance. 1)when the proud think they possess any goodness of themselves 2) when they believe they can earn God's blessings by their own merit 3) when they boast of possessing something they do not have 4) when, despising others, they wish to be the sole possessor of what they have.

Job already knows Elihu is full of himself. Job is the one with superior wisdom among them, as is declared in the beginning of Job. Elihu's accused Job of having deserved his scourges, and of having sinned after the scourges (34:37). But the Lord judges otherwise, asserting that he was scourged without reason (2:3), and blessing him doubly afterwards.

Had Job been about to die, the Lord would have praised him for his faithfulness. but since he is about to be doubly restored, the Lord reproves him, "lest his victory itself should lay him low with the sword of pride" (Gregory the Great).

Elihu is a lesson for us on pride. Because although he has spoken some powerful words, he yet immediately follows up with pride and foolishness. Like those who "preach Christ even from envy and strife....not sincerely, supposing to add affliction" to the suffering of another. (Phil. 1:14-17) This is a place where every Christian falls at some time or another. We get so full of ourselves in our knowledge of Christ, we become prideful. And pride is not a virtue of the Christian, humility is.;)

side note
I believe sometimes meaning is misunderstood in Job because of the emendations of the Sopherim. Essentially what that means is some figure of speech is changed. For instance in 32:3 we read "condemned Job" but what was originally written is "condemned God". From motives of false reverence the Sopherim altered the text. One might think this is correct, as it is incorrect for us to ascribe to God what belongs to human beings, but it also changes the meaning in the text.

tgallison
Apr 29th 2008, 05:12 PM
[quote=Teke;1621108]Elihu is a young one full of pride, but to his credit he wants it understood that Job is righteous only according to God. I noted the poster "thethirdtuttle" posted that Elihu spoke in relation to a spirit, which is incorrect. He spoke according to his own mind, he's so puffed up with pride he just has to speak.
His pride is manifested in four ways in his arrogance. 1)when the proud think they possess any goodness of themselves 2) when they believe they can earn God's blessings by their own merit 3) when they boast of possessing something they do not have 4) when, despising others, they wish to be the sole possessor of what they have.

Teke Greetings

Since you listed four ways Elihu's pride and arrogance was manifested, could you list four verses where this is exhibited?


Job already knows Elihu is full of himself. Job is the one with superior wisdom among them, as is declared in the beginning of Job. Elihu's accused Job of having deserved his scourges, and of having sinned after the scourges (34:37). But the Lord judges otherwise, asserting that he was scourged without reason (2:3), and blessing him doubly afterwards.

Job could not reply one word to Elihu in the six chapters of Elihu's discourse with Job. Job 33:32 "If thou hast any thing to say, answer me: speak, for I desire to justify thee."

Elihu did not use the term scourges, those are your words. What he did say was-- Job 34:37 "For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God."--which is exactly what Job did.--Job 7:11 "Therefore I will not refrain my mouth: I will speak in the anguish of my spirit: I will complain in the bitterness of my soul."

Here are a few of the charges against God that Job made.

1. That God destroys the perfect and the wicked.

2. That God will laugh at the trial of the innocent.

3. God covers the faces of the judges.

4. That God oppresses without cause.

5. That God despises the work of his hands.

6. That God shines on the counsel of the wicked.

7. That God destroys the hope of man.

The charges that the Lord made against Job.

1. That Job was contending with God.

2. That Job was instructing God.

3. That Job was reproving God.

4. That Job was disannuling God's judgment.

5. That Job was condemning God.

6. That Job was speaking without knowledge.

Here are the charges that God made against Elihu--

0.---



Had Job been about to die, the Lord would have praised him for his faithfulness. but since he is about to be doubly restored, the Lord reproves him, "lest his victory itself should lay him low with the sword of pride" (Gregory the Great).

Job was about to die, and the only thing God praised him for was repenting.


Elihu is a lesson for us on pride. Because although he has spoken some powerful words, he yet immediately follows up with pride and foolishness. Like those who "preach Christ even from envy and strife....not sincerely, supposing to add affliction" to the suffering of another. (Phil. 1:14-17) This is a place where every Christian falls at some time or another. We get so full of ourselves in our knowledge of Christ, we become prideful. And pride is not a virtue of the Christian, humility is.;)

You need to read chapter 32 through the end of the book. Almost everything Elihu said, God repeated. To find fault with Elihu's speech is to find fault with God, for God spoke through Elihu. That is why Job and his three friends mouths were stopped, and they were amazed. (Job 32:15)

There was no reply to Elihu, Job and his three friends could not, and God needed not, for it was God speaking through Elihu.


side note
I believe sometimes meaning is misunderstood in Job because of the emendations of the Sopherim. Essentially what that means is some figure of speech is changed. For instance in 32:3 we read "condemned Job" but what was originally written is "condemned God". From motives of false reverence the Sopherim altered the text. One might think this is correct, as it is incorrect for us to ascribe to God what belongs to human beings, but it also changes the meaning in the text.

Don't believe we have to change the Book of Job to understand it.

Grace and Peace, terrell

awestruckchild
Apr 29th 2008, 07:43 PM
menJesus greetings

No, Spirit was not capitalized, but then this was Eliphaz speaking. To him it was just a spirit, he did not know God.

The same Hebrew word for Spirit, ruwach is used in Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void: and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Oh, wow, thank you-this was very interesting!

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 07:47 PM
Oh, wow, thank you-this was very interesting!

It is also the same word used in other places denoting an evil spirit.

tgallison
Apr 29th 2008, 09:22 PM
It is also the same word used in other places denoting an evil spirit.

Brother Mark Greetings

You have to be fair. When it is an evil spirit, it is so noted in the scripture with the word evil, or spirit of jealousy, or some word associated with evil.

Here is an example where spirit is not capitalized in the KJV.---

Numbers 11:25 "And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease."

The spirit is identified as the Lord's spirit in verse 29.

terrell

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 09:24 PM
Brother Mark Greetings

You have to be fair. When it is an evil spirit, it is so noted in the scripture with the word evil, or spirit of jealousy, or some word associated with evil.

Here is an example where spirit is not capitalized in the KJV.---

Numbers 11:25 "And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease."

The spirit is identified as the Lord's spirit in verse 29.

terrell


I understand what you are saying Terrell. The man that was speaking did not know God which means he had no discernment. Our disagreement all comes from the way we see the first part of Job.

After Job lost everything, still God said there was no man like him in all the earth. He was referring to Job's righteousness and blamelessness and Godliness. He was greater than even Elihu. Though I think, Elihu had some great things to say. It is interesting that of all the men, Elihu is the only one God did not rebuke.

awestruckchild
Apr 29th 2008, 10:08 PM
Brother Mark Greetings

You have to be fair. When it is an evil spirit, it is so noted in the scripture with the word evil, or spirit of jealousy, or some word associated with evil.

Here is an example where spirit is not capitalized in the KJV.---

Numbers 11:25 "And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease."

The spirit is identified as the Lord's spirit in verse 29.

terrell


I thought of a vs. where it doesn't seem to be noted with the word evil - where one of the disciples tells a congregation to "test the spirits." Not that that helps anyone or anything.

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 10:10 PM
I thought of a vs. where it doesn't seem to be noted with the word evil - where one of the disciples tells a congregation to "test the spirits." Not that that helps anyone or anything.

Jesus told James and John "you know not what spirit you speak" when they wanted to call down fire. But that was Greek and not Hebrew. They didn't recognize the spirit that was motivating them.

tgallison
Apr 29th 2008, 10:40 PM
I understand what you are saying Terrell. The man that was speaking did not know God which means he had no discernment. Our disagreement all comes from the way we see the first part of Job.

After Job lost everything, still God said there was no man like him in all the earth. He was referring to Job's righteousness and blamelessness and Godliness. He was greater than even Elihu. Though I think, Elihu had some great things to say. It is interesting that of all the men, Elihu is the only one God did not rebuke.

Brother Mark Greetings

God was speaking to Satan. This is how God described Satan.--Ezekiel 28:15 Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

So when God says to Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?---God is showing Satan a picture of himself, before he fell.

What God said was true, Job was blameless or perfect before God.

You take this to mean Job was saved. I do not, and these are my reasons.

1. To be saved, you have to be forgiven. God didn't indicate that Job needed forgiveness, he was perfect, what did he need forgiveness for? Job indicates later, after the second chapter that he needs forgiveness. Job 7:21 "And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity?--." Job himself says he has not been pardoned.

2. No man has ever been saved because of his own righteousness. Job said, "My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long a I live." His three friends,"ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes." Elihu's wrath was kindled, "because he(Job) justified himself rather than God." The spirit said, "Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?" The Lord said to Job "wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous."

3. Job did not have a relationship with God. God spoke to Satan, and Job spoke to his three friends, and Job tried to speak to God, but he did not know where to find him. Job 23:3-4 "Oh that I knew where I might find him! that I might come even to his seat! I would order my cause before him, and fill my mouth with arguments."

4. He twice indicated he was a hired servant, and once wished that he had not been born, so that he could be free from his master. His master was the Lord.

Doesn't sound like someone saved to me.

terrell

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 10:52 PM
Brother Mark Greetings

God was speaking to Satan. This is how God described Satan.--Ezekiel 28:15 Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

So when God says to Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?---God is showing Satan a picture of himself, before he fell.

What God said was true, Job was blameless or perfect before God.

You take this to mean Job was saved. I do not, and these are my reasons.

1. To be saved, you have to be forgiven. God didn't indicate that Job needed forgiveness, he was perfect, what did he need forgiveness for? Job indicates later, after the second chapter that he needs forgiveness. Job 7:21 "And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity?--." Job himself says he has not been pardoned.

2. No man has ever been saved because of his own righteousness. Job said, "My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long a I live." His three friends,"ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes." Elihu's wrath was kindled, "because he(Job) justified himself rather than God." The spirit said, "Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?" The Lord said to Job "wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous."

3. Job did not have a relationship with God. God spoke to Satan, and Job spoke to his three friends, and Job tried to speak to God, but he did not know where to find him. Job 23:3-4 "Oh that I knew where I might find him! that I might come even to his seat! I would order my cause before him, and fill my mouth with arguments."

4. He twice indicated he was a hired servant, and once wished that he had not been born, so that he could be free from his master. His master was the Lord.

Doesn't sound like someone saved to me.

terrell


When God wrote that about Satan, he was perfect. That was before he fell.

Job was born into sin like all men. For him to be blameless, he had to be forgiven.

tgallison
Apr 29th 2008, 11:13 PM
When God wrote that about Satan, he was perfect. That was before he fell.

Job was born into sin like all men. For him to be blameless, he had to be forgiven.

Brother Mark Greetings

Paul said he was blameless according to the righteousness of the law, while he was persecuting the church with zeal. Philippians 3:6 "Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless."

We have discussed this in the past, and you have dismissed it. Is this verse true, or is it false?

Perhaps in light of all the other chapters in Job, this verse should be closer examined.

What difference does it make if God speaks for himself, or He has someone speak for him? Is it any less true?

terrell

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 11:45 PM
Brother Mark Greetings

Paul said he was blameless according to the righteousness of the law, while he was persecuting the church with zeal. Philippians 3:6 "Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless."

We have discussed this in the past, and you have dismissed it. Is this verse true, or is it false?

Perhaps in light of all the other chapters in Job, this verse should be closer examined.

What difference does it make if God speaks for himself, or He has someone speak for him? Is it any less true?

terrell


Paul was speaking of his mindset and how he was blameless. But he was not blameless before God. I will stand by that statement. He was sinful before God and that is important to note. Had Paul died in his "blameless" state, he would have went to hell.

Yet, with Job, if he was not saved, then God was holding him in higher esteem than all saved men on the planet. And it wasn't his wealth because all his wealth was gone in Job 2 when God said this...

Job 2:3
3 And the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to ruin him without cause."
NASB

In God's eyes, there was no man like Job in all the earth, even though Job was very poor at this point in time as God had allowed Satan to take all his wealth.

Paul was blameless as the pharisees were blameless. Jesus said of them "Your rightousness better exceed the righteousness of the pharisees". He wasn't proclaiming them righteous when he said that. But everyone thought they were righteous. Paul, when he was a Pharisee, thought himself righteous. According to the law, he was blameless. But he was not blameless before God. That's the point and key to this whole thing.

Job was greater than all the men of the earth even when he had nothing. It was not, as you suggested earlier, a statement about him concerning his wealth.

Teke
Apr 30th 2008, 12:58 AM
Teke Greetings

Since you listed four ways Elihu's pride and arrogance was manifested, could you list four verses where this is exhibited?

I'm sure I can find plenty in the NT.:D


Job could not reply one word to Elihu in the six chapters of Elihu's discourse with Job. [B]Job 33:32 [COLOR=Red]"If thou hast any thing to say, answer me: speak, for I desire to justify thee."

I see no significant relation to your implication in the verse.


[COLOR=Black]Elihu did not use the term scourges, those are your words. What he did say was-- Job 34:37 [COLOR=Red]"For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God."[COLOR=Black]--

Not only does the Lord not countenance wrongs, but he doesn't even care to look upon them. (see Hab. 1:13)


which is exactly what Job did.--Job 7:11 [COLOR=Red]"Therefore I will not refrain my mouth: I will speak in the anguish of my spirit: I will complain in the bitterness of my soul."

You've taken this verse out of context to make your argument. 7:11 is the frame of mind we are to be in for confession.
Also read further to verse 12. "A guard" refers to the enemy, who is allowed to afflict the righteous with hard trials.

tgallison
Apr 30th 2008, 01:12 AM
[quote=Brother Mark;1621847]Paul was speaking of his mindset and how he was blameless. But he was not blameless before God. I will stand by that statement. He was sinful before God and that is important to note. Had Paul died in his "blameless" state, he would have went to hell.

Brother Mark Greetings

Job to was on his way to the pit according to the daysman that God appointed. Job 17:22 "That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man. He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword. He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain: so that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat. His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen: and his bones that were not seen stick out. Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers." Here we have a depiction of Job's condition. And the reason for his condition, to hide pride from him, and to keep his soul from the grave. Sounds to me like Job is heading for the pit, unless something changes.


Yet, with Job, if he was not saved, then God was holding him in higher esteem than all saved men on the planet. And it wasn't his wealth because all his wealth was gone in Job 2 when God said this...

Job 2:3
3 And the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to ruin him without cause."
NASB

In God's eyes, there was no man like Job in all the earth, even though Job was very poor at this point in time as God had allowed Satan to take all his wealth.Yes, but then Job was tested, he passed the first test, but what happened at the second test?


Paul was blameless as the pharisees were blameless. Jesus said of them "Your rightousness better exceed the righteousness of the pharisees". He wasn't proclaiming them righteous when he said that. But everyone thought they were righteous. Paul, when he was a Pharisee, thought himself righteous. According to the law, he was blameless. But he was not blameless before God. That's the point and key to this whole thing.I doubt there were very many pharisees that were blameless in the law, if any. Paul was one of a kind. He alone was entrusted with the message to the whole Gentile world. Given understanding beyond the twelve, to whom he had to reprove.


Job was greater than all the men of the earth even when he had nothing. It was not, as you suggested earlier, a statement about him concerning his wealth.You have added a word where it doesn't belong. The word is greatest, and it is found in Job 1:3 "His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household: so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east."

God said to Satan, have you checked the heart of my servant Job, there is none like him in the earth. You may say there is no difference between none like him, and greatest, but it is not what the word says in either the KJV or the NASB.

terrell

Brother Mark
Apr 30th 2008, 01:25 AM
I doubt there were very many pharisees that were blameless in the law, if any. Paul was one of a kind. He alone was entrusted with the message to the whole Gentile world. Given understanding beyond the twelve, to whom he had to reprove.

But Paul was an evil man when he was a Pharisee. In his own words, this is what he said...

1 Tim 1:15-16
15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16 And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
NASB

One who is blameless, needs no mercy. Yet, Paul no longer considered himself blameless according to the Law. It wasn't Saul that was called to the Gentiles. It was Paul, born again believer that was no longer a Pharisee in spirit.


You have added a word where it doesn't belong. The word is greatest, and it is found in Job 1:3 "His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household: so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east."

God said to Satan, have you checked the heart of my servant Job, there is none like him in the earth. You may say there is no difference between none like him, and greatest, but it is not what the word says in either the KJV or the NASB.

terrell


There was none like Job in all the earth! He was blameless in God's eyes and not in need of mercy. God's description of him to Satan was after he lost everything.

And did Job pass it? He never cursed God. Oh, he had issues and God corrected him. But one thing Job clearly answered with resounding YES was the question put to God by Satan....

Will a man serve God for nothing? YES!!!! Will he serve God when his health is taken as well as his material wealth? A resounding YES!

Job was blameless in all the world. He hated evil. He was upright. That word upright is translated righteous in Numbers 23:10.

Num 23:10

10 Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his!
KJV

In Job it is translated upright.

Job 2:3

3 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
KJV

The word perfect means complete or pious. He not only righteous and blameless, but he was mature. There was none like him in all the earth! He stood out!!!

tgallison
Apr 30th 2008, 01:52 AM
[quote=Teke;1621910]I'm sure I can find plenty in the NT.:D

Teke Greetings

Since you made the statement, and since you won't find any of Elihu's quotes in the NT, would you mind listing four ways Elihu's arrogance and pride were manifested in the Book of Job.



I see no significant relation to your implication in the verse.That you can see no significance to the fact that Job could not answer Elihu one word in response to the six chapters of dialogue Elihu had with him is amazing, in light of all the response he had to his three friends.



Not only does the Lord not countenance wrongs, but he doesn't even care to look upon them. (see Hab. 1:13)Well the Lord made an exception in Job's case. Job 38:2 "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge."



You've taken this verse out of context to make your argument. 7:11 is the frame of mind we are to be in for confession.
Also read further to verse 12. "A guard" refers to the enemy, who is allowed to afflict the righteous with hard trials.Well maybe Job was trying to get in the frame of mind for confession, but his confession wasn't very nice. Job 9:23 "If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent." Job 9:24 "The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where and who is he?" Job also said to the Lord. Job 10:3 "Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hand, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?"

terrell

tgallison
Apr 30th 2008, 02:25 AM
[quote=Brother Mark;1621942]But Paul was an evil man when he was a Pharisee. In his own words, this is what he said...

1 Tim 1:15-16
15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16 And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
NASB

Brother Mark Greetings

I will no more call Paul evil, then I would Job. They are both God's chosen.


One who is blameless, needs no mercy. Yet, Paul no longer considered himself blameless according to the Law. It wasn't Saul that was called to the Gentiles. It was Paul, born again believer that was no longer a Pharisee in spirit.
Evidently Job didn't consider himself blameless either. Job 7:21 "And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust: and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be."




There was none like Job in all the earth! He was blameless in God's eyes and not in need of mercy. God's description of him to Satan was after he lost everything.Maybe Job didn't need mercy in chapter one, but by the end of chapter two he sure did.


And did Job pass it? He never cursed God. Oh, he had issues and God corrected him. But one thing Job clearly answered with resounding YES was the question put to God by Satan....In chapter two it merely states Job did not curse God with his lips, doesn't say anything about his heart. Evidently you choose not to read beyond chapter two.

Actually Satan told God that Job would not bless him in his presence.

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/gifs/copyChkboxOff.gifJob 1:11 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Job&c=1&v=11&t=KJV#11) But 0199 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=0199&t=KJV) put forth 07971 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=07971&t=KJV) thine hand 03027 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=03027&t=KJV) now, and touch 05060 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=05060&t=KJV) all that he hath, and he will curse 01288 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=01288&t=KJV) 03808 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=03808&t=KJV) thee to thy face 06440 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=06440&t=KJV).


Hebrew for H1288
ברך Transliteration

barak

Pronunciation

bä·rak' (Key) (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=01288&t=KJV#)

Part of Speech

verb


Root Word (Etymology)


a primitive root

TWOT Reference


285 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=01288&t=KJV#)


Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to bless, kneel
a) (Qal)
1) to kneel
2) to bless
b) (Niphal) to be blessed, bless oneself
c) (Piel) to bless
d) (Pual) to be blessed, be adored
e) (Hiphil) to cause to kneel
f) (Hithpael) to bless oneself
2) (TWOT) to praise, salute, curse

Hebrew for H3808
לא Transliteration

lo'

Pronunciation

lo (Key) (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=03808&t=KJV#)

Part of Speech

adverb


Root Word (Etymology)


a primitive particle

TWOT Reference


1064 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=03808&t=KJV#)


Outline of Biblical Usage
1) not, no
a) not (with verb - absolute prohibition)
b) not (with modifier - negation)
c) nothing (subst)
d) without (with particle)
e) before (of time)



The two Hebrew words, lo(not) and barak(bless) are combined in Job 1:11 to make the statement not bless.

If you read beyond the second chapter, you will see that Job cursed God.



terrell

Brother Mark
Apr 30th 2008, 02:33 AM
I will no more call Paul evil, then I would Job. They are both God's chosen.

But all are evil before grace is given. Man is born into wickedness.


Maybe Job didn't need mercy in chapter one, but by the end of chapter two he sure did.

When a man is grown, he has sinned at some point. Are you suggesting Job, a married man with 12 children had not sinned and needed no mercy? My point is that he had sinned and was forgiven and therefore, blameless and righteous. That is why God called him blameless and upright, a man who feared God and hated evil.


In chapter two it merely states Job did not curse God with his lips, doesn't say anything about his heart. Evidently you choose not to read beyond chapter two.

Oh, I've read the whole book. Job is a deep well for those of us that have suffered trials and testings. God allowed Job's suffering to do a deeper work in him. That was Peter's point concerning firey trials. They test our faith and we can learn and grow as a result.

James said that Job had patience. God called Job mature. You can bet this was not the first trial Job had ever experienced.

Even after losing everything, God still considered Job a righteous, mature, and blameless man. That is a man who is saved. God still had a deeper work to do in him and that is what the rest of the book is about. Job was saved before the trial occurred and he was saved after the trial was over.

tgallison
Apr 30th 2008, 11:35 AM
Even after losing everything, God still considered Job a righteous, mature, and blameless man. That is a man who is saved. God still had a deeper work to do in him and that is what the rest of the book is about. Job was saved before the trial occurred and he was saved after the trial was over.

Brother Mark Greetings

You have not gone beyond the first trial of Job. You have not examined what God said, or what Elihu said, following the second chapter and prior to the last chapter. To do so would put a holes in your theory that Job was saved prior to the last chapter.

1. Was Elihu in God's stead, or was he lying?

Going back to the original question, who was the spirit? You say he was a evil or lying spirit.

The Spirit's charge through Eliphaz, Job 4:17 "Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Then you have Elihu saying basically the same thing as the spirit.

2. Was Elihu lying like the spirit?

Elihu's charge against Job. Job 35:2 "Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

Then you have the Lord saying basically the same thing as the spirit, and as Elihu.

3. Was the Lord lying?

God's charge against Job. Job 40:8 "Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

If you are able to answer these questions please do so.

The only way you can make the Book of Job fit your theory, that Job was saved, is to skip over the majority of the Book.

Peace and truth, terrell

Teke
Apr 30th 2008, 12:56 PM
Teke Greetings

Since you made the statement, and since you won't find any of Elihu's quotes in the NT, would you mind listing four ways Elihu's arrogance and pride were manifested in the Book of Job.

Hey Terrell

For starters in 34:5-8 Elihu added to and twisted Job's words to strengthen his own argument, as Job did not say that.



That you can see no significance to the fact that Job could not answer Elihu one word in response to the six chapters of dialogue Elihu had with him is amazing, in light of all the response he had to his three friends.

Job didn't ask Elihu any questions. Why respond to rhetoric.


Well the Lord made an exception in Job's case. Job 38:2 "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge."

That is just a figure of speech being used. It's not for an answer.


Well maybe Job was trying to get in the frame of mind for confession, but his confession wasn't very nice. Job 9:23 "If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent." Job 9:24 [COLOR=Red]"The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where and who is he?" Job also said to the Lord. Job 10:3 "Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hand, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?"


I don't see how your getting your interpretation. Chapter 9 is on Job not having a Mediator. And chapter 10 is Job asking why God has judged him.

"What advantage is it for us to foreknow these things, if it is not our lot to escape them?" (Gregory)
Job knew he would be redeemed (Job 19:25):)

Brother Mark
Apr 30th 2008, 01:01 PM
Brother Mark Greetings

You have not gone beyond the first trial of Job. You have not examined what God said, or what Elihu said, following the second chapter and prior to the last chapter. To do so would put a holes in your theory that Job was saved prior to the last chapter.

1. Was Elihu in God's stead, or was he lying?

Going back to the original question, who was the spirit? You say he was a evil or lying spirit.

The Spirit's charge through Eliphaz, Job 4:17 "Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Then you have Elihu saying basically the same thing as the spirit.

2. Was Elihu lying like the spirit?

Elihu's charge against Job. Job 35:2 "Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

Then you have the Lord saying basically the same thing as the spirit, and as Elihu.

3. Was the Lord lying?

God's charge against Job. Job 40:8 "Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

If you are able to answer these questions please do so.

The only way you can make the Book of Job fit your theory, that Job was saved, is to skip over the majority of the Book.

Peace and truth, terrell



Job needed to be corrected in his thinking. He thought what was happening to him was unfair and wanted and audience with God so God could explain himself or justify his actions to Job. Job was out of line but not lost. Hence the conversation between the three.

tgallison
Apr 30th 2008, 07:15 PM
[quote=Teke;1622258]Hey Terrell

For starters in 34:5-8 Elihu added to and twisted Job's words to strengthen his own argument, as Job did not say that.

Teke could you be a little more explicit. What words exactly were twisted? And what did Job not say? You listed four verses, without defining what you believe they say.

terrell

tgallison
Apr 30th 2008, 07:29 PM
Job needed to be corrected in his thinking. He thought what was happening to him was unfair and wanted and audience with God so God could explain himself or justify his actions to Job. Job was out of line but not lost. Hence the conversation between the three.

Brother Mark Greetings

Elihu disagrees with you. He clearly says Job was on his way to the pit if he didn't repent. In light of this fact, is it fair to ask you what you think of Elihu?

Elihu said he was in God's stead(place). Do you believe that is true or untrue?

Elihu said he was perfect in knowledge. Do you believe that is true or untrue?

terrell

Teke
Apr 30th 2008, 07:44 PM
[QUOTE]

Teke could you be a little more explicit. What words exactly were twisted? And what did Job not say? You listed four verses, without defining what you believe they say.

terrell

The verses say what Elihu believes Job to have said. Do you see where Job said what Elihu is proposing? I don't.

Here is an example of what Job did say.
Job 10:15 For if I am ungodly, woe to me. And If I am righteous, I cannot lift up my head: For I am full of dishonor

tgallison
Apr 30th 2008, 10:48 PM
Hey Terrell

[QUOTE] For starters in 34:5-8 Elihu added to and twisted Job's words to strengthen his own argument, as Job did not say that.

This is what Elihu said Job said. Job 34:5 "For Job hath said, I am righteous; and God hath taken away my judgment."

This is what Job said. Job 26:6 "My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live." And this is what Job said at the end of the Book. Job 40:4 "Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth."

What Elihu said Job said. Job 34:6 "Should I lie against my right? my wound is incurable without transgression."

The word translated wound is chets in the Hebrew and means arrow or arrows of God

What Job said. Job 6:4 "For the arrows of the mighty are within me, the Poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me."

What Job said. Job 19:6-10 "Know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with his net. Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard: I cry aloud, but there is no judgment. He hath fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he hath set darkness in my paths. He hath stripped me of my glory, and taken the crown from my head. He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree."

Elihu said about Job. Job 34:7 "What man is like Job, who drinketh up scorning like water?" This seems to be a play on words where Job says the poison arrows of God drinketh up his spirit in Job 6:4.

Elihu said about Job. Job 34:8 "Which goeth in company with the workers of iniquity, and walketh with wicked men."

I guess you will have to decide for yourself who Job's wicked friends where.

terrell

thethirdtuttle
Apr 30th 2008, 11:42 PM
tgallison:

You are absolutely correct that I confused Elihu with Eliphaz. Sorry about that! Those Hebrew names are just too similar for my liking!;) Seriously, though, whomever it was that was visited by the spirit, I believe my points are still valid. Did Elihu say some awesome things about God? Sure. But, does that mean absolutely everything he says is exactly right? I don't think so. He is passionate and zealous for God and His truth, which are not bad things in and of themselves, but when those qualities are coupled with a lack of knowlege and discernment, they can be extremely harmful. I guess I don't see in the text where it justifies saying that Elihu is the mediator between Job and God that Job so desperately yearns for. My imoression is that Job is talking about Jesus, as he does when he talks about seeing his redeemer in the flesh. My impression is that Elihu is just a hot-headed young man who gets sick and tired of all the hot air that Job's friends are blowing around, and finally can't take it any more and vents his frustrations. That's just my opinion, though. Take it or leave it.

As far as whether Job is saved or not, I believe he is, because he has an honest, straightforward, vital relationship with the living God, while all his friends can do is talk about God. HUGE difference there as far as I'm concerned. Does Job complain, vent, charge God with things He is not truly responsible for? Sure, but he is only being gut-level honest about his situation. God would be so proud of us if each and every child of His could be that honest! If we could just come to Him and say, "You know, Lord, this situation I'm in right now, it really sucks! But, I trust You that You are working it all out for my ultimate good." That's what Job is basically saying throughout all of his speeches. The big difference between him and us is, we know that there is a personal source of evil in the universe whose name is Satan, while Job could only mistakenly attribute the source of his suffering to God. Job may have had some vague inkling that God wasn't truly behind it all, but he couldn't have had any way of knowing what happened in the heavenly throne room at the beginning of the book.

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin

tgallison
Apr 30th 2008, 11:44 PM
Hey Terrell

[QUOTE]Job didn't ask Elihu any questions. Why respond to rhetoric.

When Job's mediator showed up Job was unable to speak, he was to amazed.
Job 32:15 "They were amazed, the answered no more: they left off speaking."

You say why should Job respond to rhetoric? Because Job is the one that pleaded to God to send Elihu, that he might plead his case before Elihu. (Elihu's name means God with us or God himself.)

Job 23:3-4 "Oh that I knew where I might find him! that I might come even to his seat! I would order my cause before him, and fill my mouth with arguments."

Job 13:19-22 "Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost. Only do not two things unto me: then I will not hide myself from thee. Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid. Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me.

Job 9:32-35 "For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Then would I speak, and not fear him: but it is not so with me."

And then we have Elihu's answer to Job's request.

Job 33:6-7 "Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. Behold my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee."

Why does it all seem so clear, and yet no one sees it?

terrell

tgallison
Apr 30th 2008, 11:52 PM
[quote=thethirdtuttle;1622910]tgallison:

You are absolutely correct that I confused Elihu with Eliphaz. Sorry about that! Those Hebrew names are just too similar for my liking!;) Seriously, though, whomever it was that was visited by the spirit, I believe my points are still valid. Did Elihu say some awesome things about God? Sure. But, does that mean absolutely everything he says is exactly right? I don't think so. He is passionate and zealous for God and His truth, which are not bad things in and of themselves, but when those qualities are coupled with a lack of knowlege and discernment, they can be extremely harmful. I guess I don't see in the text where it justifies saying that Elihu is the mediator between Job and God that Job so desperately yearns for. My imoression is that Job is talking about Jesus, as he does when he talks about seeing his redeemer in the flesh. My impression is that Elihu is just a hot-headed young man who gets sick and tired of all the hot air that Job's friends are blowing around, and finally can't take it any more and vents his frustrations. That's just my opinion, though. Take it or leave it.

Yours in Christ, Benjamin

Greetings Benjamin

Perhaps you could quote some scripture from Elihu that was untrue, and that was not aligned with what God said.

Grace and Peace, terrell

thethirdtuttle
May 1st 2008, 12:01 AM
tgallison:

Thanks for helping me to refine what I believe and why. I guess what I meant to say was that Elihu may have spoken truth, but that it wasn't spoken with the right attitude and/or with enough discernment. What I'm basically trying to get across is that we can say all the right words, but if our hearts are not right, they can do more harm than good. Hope that helps!

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin

tgallison
May 1st 2008, 12:33 AM
tgallison:

Thanks for helping me to refine what I believe and why. I guess what I meant to say was that Elihu may have spoken truth, but that it wasn't spoken with the right attitude and/or with enough discernment. What I'm basically trying to get across is that we can say all the right words, but if our hearts are not right, they can do more harm than good. Hope that helps!

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin

Benjamin Greetings

I see Elihu as no different than Balaam's ass. Both only spoke as God opened their mouth. Therefore, to say Elihu did not have the right attitude, would be the same as saying Balaam's ass did not have the right attitude.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

thethirdtuttle
May 1st 2008, 12:48 AM
tgallison:

I see what you are saying, but there is a HUGE difference between a human being and a donkey. A donkey, not normally given the gift of speech by God, could only speak what God told it to say. A human being, however, is fully capable of choosing what to say, and how. I believe my point, therefore, stands. Truth spoken in the wrong circumstances with the wrong attitude (wanting to justify ourselves/prove ourselves right, rather than wanting to help those who are hurting) can do more harm than good.

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin

tgallison
May 1st 2008, 02:01 AM
tgallison:

I see what you are saying, but there is a HUGE difference between a human being and a donkey. A donkey, not normally given the gift of speech by God, could only speak what God told it to say. A human being, however, is fully capable of choosing what to say, and how. I believe my point, therefore, stands. Truth spoken in the wrong circumstances with the wrong attitude (wanting to justify ourselves/prove ourselves right, rather than wanting to help those who are hurting) can do more harm than good.

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin

But Benjamin thats my point, Elihu could speak no more, or no less than God had him speak.

When he spoke every mouth was shut, and they were amazed. Who can shut every mouth but God. God was speaking through Elihu to Job. Elihu said he was perfect in knowledge. That could only be true if God was speaking through him.

Elihu arrived on the scene and shut every mouth, that would never have happened if they had known him. Elihu spoke for six chapters, declaring what had happened to Job. What was going to happen to Job, and where Job was at fault. Job declared, if he had his day in court, with a judge that was made of clay, that Job would vindicate himself with his own words, because of his righteousness.

Well Elihu commanded Job to speak if he had anything to say in his defense. Well we heard nothing but silence from Job. Why, because Elihu's words were God's words. Who can stand before God in their own defense?

God made not one mention of Elihu. Why, because why would he, if He was speaking through Elihu.

The truth is simple, logical, and before our eyes.

Otherwise you have to determine that God appointed six chapters in the Book of Job to a liar. And if he was a liar, why did not God call him on it.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

thethirdtuttle
May 1st 2008, 03:30 AM
But Benjamin thats my point, Elihu could speak no more, or no less than God had him speak. Why? Because he claimed to speak for God? Many, many people down through the ages have claimed to speak for God, when they really haven't. Every human being has the ability to choose what to say and what not to say. Just because you claim that he said only what God told him to doesn't make it true. Furthermore, it is a denigration of a human being to equate them with a donkey.


When he spoke every mouth was shut, and they were amazed. Who can shut every mouth but God. God was speaking through Elihu to Job. Elihu said he was perfect in knowledge. That could only be true if God was speaking through him.
Just because Elihu claimed he was perfect in knowlege doesn't make it so. Nobobdy, except the Lord Jesus Christ, has perfect knowlege. I could make all sorts of outrageous claims about myself; that doesn't necessarily make them true. I'm not sure, but maybe they shut their mouths because they were overwhelmed with the passion with which Elihu spoke. After all, tone of voice, volume, inflections, etc. do not translate well into written words. There are probably lots of perfectly reasonable explanations for why Job and his friends stopped talking, none of which require a direct act of God. Getting back to the "perfect in knowlege" issue, do you honestly and truly believe that just because someone in the Bible claims something, you wholeheartedly believe what they say without cross-checking with other verses in the Bible, as well as with your own God-given common sense? Yes, the Holy Spirit made sure everything Job and his friends said were accurately and correctly recorded and preserved; that doesn't necessarily mean everything they said lined up with God's heart.


Elihu arrived on the scene and shut every mouth, that would never have happened if they had known him. Elihu spoke for six chapters, declaring what had happened to Job. What was going to happen to Job, and where Job was at fault. Job declared, if he had his day in court, with a judge that was made of clay, that Job would vindicate himself with his own words, because of his righteousness.
I don't know if Job and his friends knew Elihu or not; I haven't studied it out enough to know. My impression, however, is that he is a impressionable, hotheaded young man who happens upon the scene and can't wait to throw in his two cents, whether they are solicited or not. He was speaking out of the passion of his heart, which is not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, unless it is not coupled with godly wisdom and discerment. To just go blurting out whatever crosses your mind as you think it is neither loving nor beneficial.


Well Elihu commanded Job to speak if he had anything to say in his defense. Well we heard nothing but silence from Job. Why, because Elihu's words were God's words. Who can stand before God in their own defense?
Because you believe Elihu's words were God's words does not necessarily make it so. See my comments above.


God made not one mention of Elihu. Why, because why would he, if He was speaking through Elihu.
There could be lots of other reasons why God didn't mention Elihu. Just because you believe it's because God spoke through Elihu doesn't necessarily make it so. That kind of "argument from silence," as the theologians call it, is extremely dangerous. It is my impression that you are coming to the text with preconceived notions about what it is saying, instead of coming to it with an open mind and heart, asking God to show you what He wants You to learn from it. I could be mistaken, though.


The truth is simple, logical, and before our eyes.

Otherwise you have to determine that God appointed six chapters in the Book of Job to a liar. And if he was a liar, why did not God call him on it.
I'm not saying that Elihu is a liar. I'm saying that while he does say some things that are true, they are not said with a loving attitude. How we say things is just as important, if not more important, than what we say. For example, if you were to say a sentence, and then I said the exact same sentence back to you, but in a completely different tone of voice and attitude, the sentence would take on a whole different meaning than the way you originally intended it to have. Just some things to think about.

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin

tgallison
May 1st 2008, 10:12 AM
Why? Because he claimed to speak for God? Many, many people down through the ages have claimed to speak for God, when they really haven't. Every human being has the ability to choose what to say and what not to say. Just because you claim that he said only what God told him to doesn't make it true. Furthermore, it is a denigration of a human being to equate them with a donkey.


Just because Elihu claimed he was perfect in knowlege doesn't make it so. Nobobdy, except the Lord Jesus Christ, has perfect knowlege. I could make all sorts of outrageous claims about myself; that doesn't necessarily make them true. I'm not sure, but maybe they shut their mouths because they were overwhelmed with the passion with which Elihu spoke. After all, tone of voice, volume, inflections, etc. do not translate well into written words. There are probably lots of perfectly reasonable explanations for why Job and his friends stopped talking, none of which require a direct act of God. Getting back to the "perfect in knowlege" issue, do you honestly and truly believe that just because someone in the Bible claims something, you wholeheartedly believe what they say without cross-checking with other verses in the Bible, as well as with your own God-given common sense? Yes, the Holy Spirit made sure everything Job and his friends said were accurately and correctly recorded and preserved; that doesn't necessarily mean everything they said lined up with God's heart.


I don't know if Job and his friends knew Elihu or not; I haven't studied it out enough to know. My impression, however, is that he is a impressionable, hotheaded young man who happens upon the scene and can't wait to throw in his two cents, whether they are solicited or not. He was speaking out of the passion of his heart, which is not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, unless it is not coupled with godly wisdom and discerment. To just go blurting out whatever crosses your mind as you think it is neither loving nor beneficial.


Because you believe Elihu's words were God's words does not necessarily make it so. See my comments above.


There could be lots of other reasons why God didn't mention Elihu. Just because you believe it's because God spoke through Elihu doesn't necessarily make it so. That kind of "argument from silence," as the theologians call it, is extremely dangerous. It is my impression that you are coming to the text with preconceived notions about what it is saying, instead of coming to it with an open mind and heart, asking God to show you what He wants You to learn from it. I could be mistaken, though.


I'm not saying that Elihu is a liar. I'm saying that while he does say some things that are true, they are not said with a loving attitude. How we say things is just as important, if not more important, than what we say. For example, if you were to say a sentence, and then I said the exact same sentence back to you, but in a completely different tone of voice and attitude, the sentence would take on a whole different meaning than the way you originally intended it to have. Just some things to think about.

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin

Benjamin Greetings

Your argument has no substance. You have merely replied with your feelings.

You say Elihu has passion but no compassion.

You say, because I say so doesn't make it so. Very true, but if the Bible says it, I believe it. That is why I have posted so much scripture in this thread. It doesn't matter what I think, or what you think, but what the Word says.

Everybody reads the first two chapters, where God says Job is blameless and upright, and then they get into the dialogue between Job and his friends, and become confused. So what are they left with Job is blameless and upright, end of book.

They come to the dialogue between God and Job, where God describes behemoth and leviathan to Job, and they don't understand this is Satan and his prince, and they are left with Job is blameless and upright, end of book.

If you could post some scripture from Job that relates to your arguments, it would be much easier to discuss it. I have trouble discussing feelings, but logic is a different story.

Peace and Grace, terrell

Teke
May 1st 2008, 01:55 PM
This is what Elihu said Job said. Job 34:5 "For Job hath said, I am righteous; and God hath taken away my judgment."

This is what Job said. Job 26:6 "My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live." And this is what Job said at the end of the Book. Job 40:4 "Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth."

Job 26:6 doesn't say what you've posted. It says, "Hades is naked before Him. And destruction has no covering." And 40:4 says, "Why am I still judged and admonished. Even if I rebuke the lord, hear such things, and am nothing? But what answer will I give to these things? I will put my hand over my mouth.

Elihu sounds contradictory to what Job actually said.




What Elihu said Job said. Job 34:6 "Should I lie against my right? my wound is incurable without transgression."

The word translated wound is chets in the Hebrew and means arrow or arrows of God
[COLOR=Black]
What Job said. Job 6:4 [COLOR=Red]"For the arrows of the mighty are within me, the Poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me."

Don't see how your equating that Job said what Elihu is proposing. Do you think a wound is curable without transgression. Doesn't God decide whether you stay wounded or not, and that decision is for your own good spiritually.

Here is my translation of Job 6:4, "For the arrows of the Lord are in my body, Whose anger drinks my blood: For when I begin to speak, they pierce me." Sounds to me like Job has nothing to say about what the Lord does.


What Job said. Job 19:6-10 "Know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with his net. Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard: I cry aloud, but there is no judgment. He hath fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he hath set darkness in my paths. He hath stripped me of my glory, and taken the crown from my head. He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree."

Elihu said about Job. Job 34:7 "What man is like Job, who drinketh up scorning like water?" This seems to be a play on words where Job says the poison arrows of God drinketh up his spirit in Job 6:4.

]Elihu said about Job. Job 34:8 "Which goeth in company with the workers of iniquity, and walketh with wicked men."

I guess you will have to decide for yourself who Job's wicked friends where.

terrell


Terrell, you ought to compare what Job is saying in 19:6-10 with the passion of Christ. Check the clear parallels between the passages of 7-19 with Christ's passion (Matt. 27:40, John 18:23, Matt. 27:26,27,29 and see Isaiah 53:2,3)
Then tell me how you see Christ, "drinketh up scorning like water" and "goeth in company with the workers of iniquity, and walketh with wicked men".

Jesus is the "man of sorrow" who Job typifies.

tgallison
May 1st 2008, 05:29 PM
[quote=Teke;1623343]Job 26:6 doesn't say what you've posted. It says, "Hades is naked before Him. And destruction has no covering."

Teke you could have said, you meant Job 27:6 didn't you.


Job 40:4 "Why am I still judged and admonished. Even if I rebuke the lord, hear such things, and am nothing? But what answer will I give to these things? I will put my hand over my mouth.

The KJV. Job 40:4 "Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth."

The NIV. Job 40:4 "I am unworthy--how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth."

The NASB. Job 40:4 "Behold I am insignificant; what can I reply to You? I lay my hand on my mouth."

Where in the world did you get your translation from? Do you make this up as you go along?


Don't see how your equating that Job said what Elihu is proposing. Do you think a wound is curable without transgression. Doesn't God decide whether you stay wounded or not, and that decision is for your own good spiritually.

Here is my translation of Job 6:4, "For the arrows of the Lord are in my body, Whose anger drinks my blood: For when I begin to speak, they pierce me." Sounds to me like Job has nothing to say about what the Lord does.

What Elihu said Job said. Job 34:6 "Should I lie against my right? my wound is incurable without transgression."

What this verse says Job said is, should I tell lies about my righteousness? My wound(which is the arrows of God [the word translated wound is chets in the Hebrew and means arrows of God]
is incurable(a death sentence) and without just cause.


Terrell, you ought to compare what Job is saying in 19:6-10 with the passion of Christ. Check the clear parallels between the passages of 7-19 with Christ's passion (Matt. 27:40, John 18:23, Matt. 27:26,27,29 and see Isaiah 53:2,3)
Then tell me how you see Christ, "drinketh up scorning like water" and "goeth in company with the workers of iniquity, and walketh with wicked men".

Jesus is the "man of sorrow" who Job typifies.


1. Does Jesus darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? (Job 38:2)

2. Does Jesus not know where he was when he laid the foundations of the earth? (Job 38:4)

3. Can Jesus lift up his voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover Him? (Job 38:34)

4. Can Jesus number the months of the wild goats and hind that calve? (Job 39:1)

5. Did Jesus contend with God? (Job 40:2)

6. Did Jesus instruct God? (Job 40:2)

7. Did Jesus reprove God? (Job 40:2)

8. Did Jesus disannul God's judgment? (Job 40:8)

9. Did Jesus condemn God? (Job 40:8)

10. Does Jesus have an arm like God? (Job 40:9) Jesus is the arm of God.

11. Did Jesus make a covenant with Satan? (Job 41:4)

12. Did Jesus abhor himself and repent in dust and ashes? (Job 42:6)

13. Did Jesus curse the day he was born? (Job 3:1)

14. Did Jesus die, being old and full of days? (Job 42:17)

In Jesus Christ, terrell

Teke
May 1st 2008, 07:41 PM
[QUOTE]

The KJV. Job 40:4 "Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth."

The NIV. Job 40:4 "I am unworthy--how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth."

The NASB. Job 40:4 "Behold I am insignificant; what can I reply to You? I lay my hand on my mouth."

Where in the world did you get your translation from? Do you make this up as you go along?

I thought I already posted the translation is the English version (came out this year) of the Sept. (the OT scriptures the Apostles used), not the later (amended) Hebrew Massoretic text.


What Elihu said Job said. Job 34:6 "Should I lie against my right? my wound is incurable without transgression."

What this verse says Job said is, should I tell lies about my righteousness? My wound(which is the arrows of God [the word translated wound is chets in the Hebrew and means arrows of God]
is incurable(a death sentence) and without just cause.


So what are you getting at. Are you saying that Job is suffering because he's been saying he is righteous. I'm not getting that from the context the verse is in.



1. Does Jesus darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? (Job 38:2)

2. Does Jesus not know where he was when he laid the foundations of the earth? (Job 38:4)

3. Can Jesus lift up his voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover Him? (Job 38:34)

4. Can Jesus number the months of the wild goats and hind that calve? (Job 39:1)

5. Did Jesus contend with God? (Job 40:2)

6. Did Jesus instruct God? (Job 40:2)

7. Did Jesus reprove God? (Job 40:2)

8. Did Jesus disannul God's judgment? (Job 40:8)

9. Did Jesus condemn God? (Job 40:8)

10. Does Jesus have an arm like God? (Job 40:9) Jesus is the arm of God.

11. Did Jesus make a covenant with Satan? (Job 41:4)

12. Did Jesus abhor himself and repent in dust and ashes? (Job 42:6)

13. Did Jesus curse the day he was born? (Job 3:1)

14. Did Jesus die, being old and full of days? (Job 42:17)

In Jesus Christ, terrell


I gave specific scripture for what I proposed. I did not propose to compare Job and his life (the whole book of Job) with that of Christ's.

tgallison
May 1st 2008, 08:36 PM
[quote=tgallison;1623534]

[quote] I thought I already posted the translation is the English version (came out this year) of the Sept. (the OT scriptures the Apostles used), not the later (amended) Hebrew Massoretic text. Teke

I guess we can all through our Bibles out if you are correct.

What does your pure bible do with this verse?

Job 42:6 "Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."



So what are you getting at. Are you saying that Job is suffering because he's been saying he is righteous. I'm not getting that from the context the verse is in.Job is suffering because God desired to withdraw Job from his purpose and his pride.

Job 33:17 "That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man."

And then God tells Job. Job 40:11 "Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him." (Isn't this what God has just done to Job?)

And here the spirit gets to the heart of the matter. Job 4:17 "Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?"

And then again. Job 40:8 "Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me that thou mayest be righteous?

And then again. Job 41:3-4 "Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee? Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant forever." (God has just asked Job if he is going to take Satan for a servant forever.)



I gave specific scripture for what I proposed. I did not propose to compare Job and his life (the whole book of Job) with that of Christ's.Christ suffered for our unrighteousness.

Job suffered because of his righteousness, or it can be stated, because he declared his righteousness to be greater than God's.

Job 35:2 "Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?"

terrell

Teke
May 1st 2008, 10:09 PM
[quote=Teke;1623664][quote=tgallison;1623534]

Teke

I guess we can all through our Bibles out if you are correct.

What does your pure bible do with this verse?

Job 42:6 "Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

Let's not be pernicious. :hug: I didn't say my bible was more pure. It's easier for me to understand than Greek. :D

To comment on the verse, Job has seen God (a spiritual vision) at this point. Through repentance and fear of God we are given the gift of spiritual knowledge, meaning we begin to perceive the hidden things of God. This is only the beginning which is "the hearing", it is the "vision", the seeing, which is certainty with us. What Job says is a result of this experience.



Job is suffering because God desired to withdraw Job from his purpose and his pride.

Job 33:17 "That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man."

And then God tells Job. Job 40:11 "Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him." (Isn't this what God has just done to Job?)

And here the spirit gets to the heart of the matter. Job 4:17 "Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?"

And then again. Job 40:8 "Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me that thou mayest be righteous?

And then again. Job 41:3-4 "Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee? Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant forever." (God has just asked Job if he is going to take Satan for a servant forever.)


Christ suffered for our unrighteousness.

Job suffered because of his righteousness, or it can be stated, because he declared his righteousness to be greater than God's.

Job 35:2 "Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?"

terrell

Terrell I'm not going to debate a lot of scripture taken out of it's context and put into your own context of belief. That would be pointless.

Why are you so determined to uphold Elihu's position? Do you see him as a Theophany?

Christ suffered because of the unrighteousness of man. He suffered because He was in the flesh as we are, and for the glory of God and His righteousness.
To say He suffered for our unrighteousness can only be true in the sense that He suffered for humanities sake. IOW in an ontological sense. To say otherwise would contradict that He was sinless/without sin.

In the very beginning of Job, God states that Job will suffer without cause. Meaning not for sin, but because he is so righteous, he will glorify God in his suffering.

I think we understand this in how we experience God and what He is doing with us. Like fear of death. We are not to fear anything because He is with us always. Fear and death are the devils greatest weapons against us. Acceptance in humility and grace glorifies God.

tgallison
May 1st 2008, 11:01 PM
[quote=Teke;1623773][quote=tgallison;1623704][quote=Teke;1623664]

Let's not be pernicious. :hug: I didn't say my bible was more pure. It's easier for me to understand than Greek. :D

Teke you mean I don't have to throw my Bible away, I am glad to hear that. ;)


To comment on the verse, Job has seen God (a spiritual vision) at this point. Through repentance and fear of God we are given the gift of spiritual knowledge, meaning we begin to perceive the hidden things of God. This is only the beginning which is "the hearing", it is the "vision", the seeing, which is certainty with us. What Job says is a result of this experience. Isn't it more like Paul's experience. Acts 9:17 "And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."




Terrell I'm not going to debate a lot of scripture taken out of it's context and put into your own context of belief. That would be pointless.Teke it is just the opposite, the scripture I have presented is in context, and is consistent. What has been presented is the substance of the Book and not feelings. There is an attitude among many that Job needs defended at all costs. Job doesn't need defended any more than Paul does.


Why are you so determined to uphold Elihu's position? Do you see him as a Theophany?He is the daysman that Job pleaded with God for. He was a young man so that Job wouldn't be frightened. He claimed he was in the place of God. I believe that. How else do you explain that they were amazed and shut their mouths before him? How else do you explain that God appointed 6 chapters devoted to Elihu's speech? How do you explain he prophesied Job's ending? How do you explain everything God said, Elihu had already said? Do you want me to post all the scripture again?


Christ suffered because of the unrighteousness of man. He suffered because He was in the flesh as we are, and for the glory of God and His righteousness.
To say He suffered for our unrighteousness can only be true in the sense that He suffered for humanities sake. IOW in an ontological sense. To say otherwise would contradict that He was sinless/without sin.Teke you have to be real. What is the difference if I say Jesus suffered for my unrighteousness, or I say Jesus suffered for my sin? Or don't you think Jesus suffered for my sin? Look I come from the back hills of Pennsylvania, maybe we speak a different language.


In the very beginning of Job, God states that Job will suffer without cause. Meaning not for sin, but because he is so righteous, he will glorify God in his suffering.God is asking Satan a question to which I do not understand the full meaning. On the surface it would seem so, but then maybe we should not add words like, for sin, since God didn't put it there.


I think we understand this in how we experience God and what He is doing with us. Like fear of death. We are not to fear anything because He is with us always. Fear and death are the devils greatest weapons against us. Acceptance in humility and grace glorifies God.The Lord said, "Job condemned God, so that Job would be righteous." You have to have your head in the sand not to realize that Job's statement is a serious problem. It equates to blasphemy, or cursing God if you will.

terrell

Teke
May 2nd 2008, 04:31 PM
[quote][quote=Teke;1623773][quote=tgallison;1623704]

Teke you mean I don't have to throw my Bible away, I am glad to hear that. ;)


Hey, you know I usually use the KJV to quote scripture on the board. I just thought giving my Sept. translation might make it clearer. I gave it a shot...but I can and will use the Hebrew text if that will make it clearer for you. (now we are going to get technical and critical with the text):D



Isn't it more like Paul's experience. Acts 9:17 "And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."

No, I don't see it like Paul's experience. Paul never suffered without cause as Job did.


Teke it is just the opposite, the scripture I have presented is in context, and is consistent. What has been presented is the substance of the Book and not feelings. There is an attitude among many that Job needs defended at all costs. Job doesn't need defended any more than Paul does.

The scriptures you presented were from more than one person, how is that consistent. I don't think Job needs defended. It's just a book for us to learn something from.


He is the daysman that Job pleaded with God for. He was a young man so that Job wouldn't be frightened. He claimed he was in the place of God. I believe that. How else do you explain that they were amazed and shut their mouths before him? How else do you explain that God appointed 6 chapters devoted to Elihu's speech? How do you explain he prophesied Job's ending? How do you explain everything God said, Elihu had already said? Do you want me to post all the scripture again?

Elihu is not the Mediator between man (in this case Job) and God. They shut up because they couldn't answer Job, not because Elihu spoke. Elihu spoke because they couldn't answer Job because he was righteous (32:1). I don't doubt Elihu's said many things which God agreed with. That doesn't make him God's Mediator.



Teke you have to be real. What is the difference if I say Jesus suffered for my unrighteousness, or I say Jesus suffered for my sin? Or don't you think Jesus suffered for my sin? Look I come from the back hills of Pennsylvania, maybe we speak a different language.

I came from PA as well, was transplanted in the south. Doesn't mean we speak differently. I was being specific about why He suffered. His suffering was due to the suffering state of humanity. Not that He specifically suffered for my sins. He wasn't a woman as I am, He didn't have kids like I do, so He couldn't suffer my sins. But He could suffer humanity and their sins being subject to such in the flesh. In Ezekial God makes it very clear that everyone will suffer for their own sins and another cannot suffer for someone else's sins.


God is asking Satan a question to which I do not understand the full meaning. On the surface it would seem so, but then maybe we should not add words like, for sin, since God didn't put it there.

Point is that God said Job would suffer for no cause. Sin would be a cause. Jesus taught as much when people spoke about those who needed to be healed as having an affliction because of sin. Jesus clearly stated, that sin wasn't the cause of their affliction.


The Lord said, "Job condemned God, so that Job would be righteous." You have to have your head in the sand not to realize that Job's statement is a serious problem. It equates to blasphemy, or cursing God if you will.

terrell

What part of Job are you quoting, 35:2 where Elihu is speaking. I understand it as saying, "What is this you consider judgment? Who are you to say, 'I am righteous before the Lord'?

tgallison
May 3rd 2008, 12:14 AM
[quote=Teke;1624551]

The scriptures you presented were from more than one person, how is that consistent. I don't think Job needs defended. It's just a book for us to learn something from.


Teke Greetings

It depends on how you look at it whether it is more than one person. I see the Spirit, the Word, and the Father.

Compare these verses carefully.

Elihu said, “Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.” Job 34:35

Elihu said, “Therefore doth Job open his mouth in vain: he multiplieth words without knowledge.” Job 35:16

Notice how the Lord repeated what Elihu had said.

The Lord said, “Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?” Job 38:2

Compare these two verses carefully.

Elihu said before the Lord said, “If thou canst answer me, set they words in order before me, stand up.” Job 33:5

Notice how the Lord repeated what Elihu had said.

The Lord said, “Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.” Job 38:3

Compare these verses of Elihu’s speech, which were spoken before the Lord spoke.

Elihu said, “Hearken unto this, O Job: stand still, and consider the wondrous works of God. Dost thou know when God disposed them, and caused the light of his cloud to shine? Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge? Job 37:14-16

The Lord said, “Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? Canst thou set the dominion therof in the earth? Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?” Job 38:33-34

Compare this verse of Elihu’s with a verse from the Lord.

Elihu said, “Shall even he that hateth right govern? And wilt thou condemn him that is most just?” Job 34-17

The Lord said, “Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? He that reproveth God, let him answer it.” Job 40:2 also 40:8

Compare the two verses from Elihu, which were spoken before the Lord spoke.

Elihu said, “Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.” Job 32:2

Elihu said, “Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, my righteousness is more than God’s?” Job 35:2

The Lord said, “Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? Wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?” Job 40:8

The Spirit said, "Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?" Job 4:17


In every case Elihu said it first and the Lord repeated. Does this speak to you at all? The Word was speaking through Elihu.



terrell

tgallison
May 3rd 2008, 03:13 PM
If you look at Elihu as a messenger from God, you have to take his words as truth. If you take every word word of Elihu as truth, it becomes a whole new book in relation to which tradition holds.

This book has been maligned by many men because they did not understand it. It did not hold up to their views, therefore they said parts of it were added, or didn't belong, or the book is about myths. Or they chose to ignore 30 plus chapters in the middle.

Besides the last post where Elihu spoke and then God repeated the same thing, look at what Elihu claimed.

Job requested one to stand between him and God and be a judge between them. Then Job would fill his mouth with arguments, to justify himself. Because he was righteous.

Elihu said, "If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up. Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: (KJV) I also am formed out of the clay. Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee." Job 33:5-7

What did Elihu mean when he said, my hand will not be heavy upon you? Elihu said, set thy words in order before me, stand up. Before you go to court you prepare your case. When the judge comes in the court room you stand up. Most of our Judicial procedures originated from the Bible.

Elihu said, "Suffer me a little, and I will shew thee that I have yet to speak on God's behalf. For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee." Job 36:2,4

There is only one who is perfect in knowledge, and that is God or his messenger.

And then Job's judge said this.--

"Even so would he have removed thee out of the strait into a broad place, where there is no straitness: and that which should be set on thy table should be full of fatness. But thou hast fulfilled the judgment of the wicked: judgment and justice take hold on thee. Because there is wrath , beware lest he take thee away with his stroke: then a great ransom cannot deliver thee." Job 36:16-18

It is because of verses like these, that traditionalists have delegated Elihu to a back seat. They cannot correlate blameless and upright with Elihu's speeches, therefore the confusion. They must make God's understanding fit their understanding.

Elihu foretold Job's ending if he repented, which he did.

The Book of Job is much more than a man suffering unjustly.

terrell

tgallison
May 5th 2008, 12:58 AM
IN THE 29 CHAPTER OF JOB GOD GIVES US A PICTURE OF JOB’S PRIDE.

Job starts out by saying he desired to be as in the days of his youth when God’s blessings were upon him. Look at the picture of his pride Job paints.

Job 29:8 “The young men saw me, and hid themselves: and the aged arose, and stood up” (Do you see the fear and respect that Job is bragging about.) [Why did the young men fear him?]

Job 29:9-10 “The princes refrained talking, and laid their hand on their mouth. The nobles held their peace, and their tongue cleaved to the roof of their mouth. (More of the same pride)

Job 29:11 “When the ear heard me, then it blessed me: and when the eye saw me, it gave witness to me.” (This borders on worship)

Now, when you read the next 2 verses you will say these verses explain the above verses, it was because of his righteousness, his goodness.

Job 29:12-13 “Because I delivered the poor that cried, and the fatherless, and him that had none to help him. The blessing of him that was ready to perish came upon me: and I caused the widow’s heart to sing for joy.” (Sounds nice, yet Job did not use these arguments when his case came up. He was speechless.)

Job 29:14 “I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.” (Are we not to be clothed in the righteousness of God? Almost sounds like Job is sitting on a throne.) There are three things for which the earth is disquieted. One of them is Proverbs 30:22 “For a servant when he reigneth—.”

Job 29:15-16 “I was eyes to the blind, and feet was I to the lame. I was a father to the poor: and the cause which I knew not I searched out.” (No one can deny it was in Job’s heart to do right, but he lacked wisdom.)

Job 29:17 “And I brake the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth.” (Now we can see why the young men hid themselves from Job’s presence. Perhaps this is like Paul when he went about to rid the earth of the wicked Christians.)

Job 29:18 “Then I said, I shall die in my nest, andI shall multiply my days as the sand.” (Would like to hear someone defend this statement by Job.)

You do not hear this chapter expounded on much, it does not fit with blameless and upright.

Will finish this on later post. terrell

Teke
May 5th 2008, 01:27 PM
I would interpret Job 29 in light of Christ and His Church. :)

tgallison
May 5th 2008, 04:43 PM
I would interpret Job 29 in light of Christ and His Church. :)

Teke Greetings

Well can you give us several verses and compare them?

terrell

tgallison
May 6th 2008, 12:22 AM
COMPARISON OF SOME VERSES IN JOB, WITH VERSES FROM SOME OTHER BOOKS.

Job 29:6 “When I washed my steps with butter, and the rock poured me out rivers of oil:”

Deuteronomy 32:13-14 “He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields: and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock: Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat: and thou didst drink the pure blood of grape.”

Psalm 55:21 “The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart; his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords.

You would ask, what does Psalm 55:21 have to do with Job. The common denominator is the butter and oil, the only two verses in the Bible that are connected with butter and oil. Jobs words were buttery, but look at the fear that was instilled in others in chapter 29.

Deuteronomy the 32 chapter could well be describing Job.

Deuteronomy 32:15 “But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness: then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.”

Is not this Job (Jeshurun—the upright one), he was fat and sat at the gate of the city as a king. A picture of Job and some say a picture of Israel.

Deuteronomy 32:18 “Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.”

Deuteronomy 32:23 “I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.”

Job 6:4 “For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.”

Deuteronomy 32:24:25 “They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

Deuteronomy 32:1-2 “Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Job 29:22-23 “After my words they spake not again: and my speech dropped upon them. And they waited for me as for the rain; and they opened their mouth wide as for the latter rain.

Compare the difference in these two speakers in the two above verses. The speaker in Deuteronomy goes on in the next two verses two ascribe greatness to God. Where Job goes on to expound on his own greatness.

Deuteronomy 32:3-4 “Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: A God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.”

Job 29:24-25 “If I laughed on them, they believed it not; and the light of my countenance they cast not down. I chose out their way, and sat chief, and dwelt as a king in the army, as one that comforteth the mourners.”

terrell

tgallison
May 8th 2008, 02:36 PM
This thread started by asking about Eliphaz's speech, and the spirit that spoke.

The question should be asked, was everything Eliphaz's said a lie? The answer to that would have to be no, for Eliphaz said some wonderful things about God.

Did they come to do harm to Job? One would think the answer to that would be no, it is always stated they are the friends of Job.

Did they know things about Job's personal life that we don't know? The answer to that would have to be yes.

What charges were made against the three friends in the Book of Job?

1. That they had found no answer to Job's dilemma, and yet condemned Job. Job 32:3

2. They did not repent as Job did. Job 42:7

Some things Eliphaz said about Job compared to other scripture.

Job 15:24-27 "Trouble and anguish shall make him afraid; they shall prevail against him, as a king ready to battle. For he stretcheth out his hand against God, and strengtheneth himself against the Almighty. He runneth upon him, even on his neck, upon the thick bosses of his bucklers: Because he covereth his face with his fatness, and maketh collops of fat on his flanks."

Job 16:8 "And thou hast filled me with wrinkles, which is a witness against me: and my leanness rising up in me beareth witness to my face."

Deuteronomy 32:15 "But Jeshurun(upright one) waxed fat, and kicked; thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation."

Job 40:8 "Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me that thou mayest be righteous?"

Job 29:24-25 “If I laughed on them, they believed it not; and the light of my countenance they cast not down. I chose out their way, and sat chief, and dwelt as a king in the army, as one that comforteth the mourners.”

Ezekiel 28:2 "Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:"

Job 34:17 "Shall even he that hateth right govern? and wilt thou condemn him that is most just?"

Job 33:21-22 "His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones that were not seen stick out. Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers."

Job 41:4 "Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?"



terrell