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lookingToTheHills
Apr 20th 2008, 02:40 AM
just want some clarification if anyone knows, did this have something to do with Peter denying Him?

the inside out
Apr 20th 2008, 03:06 AM
ACTUALLY...Jesus asked the same question twice and then a third question. Jesus uses two different words here for love: "agape" and "philios"

(I'm paraphrasing) The first two times, Jesus asks him do you love (agape) me? and Peter responds Yes I do love (philios) you. Basically, Jesus is asking him if he REALLY REALLY loves Him or if he's commited to Him and Peter responds, "yeah like a brother." or "i have affection for you." or "i feel for you." In Modern times, "Yeah, we cool!"

The third time Jesus asks him, Do you love (philios) me and peter responds yes I do love (philios) you.

Jesus is asking him about his commitment and Jesus is exposing his heart.

Jesus' question didn't have anything to do with Peter's denial, but Peter's answers may have had to do with his denial. Peter may have felt unworthy before Him.

(sorry if that sounds a little scattered. I should be going to sleep, but I really don't want to)

Kandaje
Apr 20th 2008, 03:08 AM
Greetings...


just want some clarification if anyone knows, did this have something to do with Peter denying Him?

That's what your church pastor will teach... That it's a mini-prophesy due to be completed in just a few hours.
I'm all for that. Exactly the kind of practical joke that Simon needed at the time. God DOES have a sense of humor. Something that a lot of people seem to forget...

To really get it - you need to read it in the greek - 3 different words for love...

Eros, Philos, Agape...

I'll leave that as an excersize for the student...

Da Roc
Apr 20th 2008, 10:03 AM
Hi,

Actually there are about 19 different greek words to describe what we would just call love.

Greek has words to describe:

Love of a father for the daughter

Love of the husband for his spouse.

Love of the sister for a brother.

Love of a mother for the daughter.

Etc., Etc., Etc.,

Peace,

Da Roc

Clifton
Apr 20th 2008, 12:37 PM
just want some clarification if anyone knows, did this have something to do with Peter denying Him?

As other folks have pointed out here, there are different Greek words used in John 21:15-17. The third time, by Christ, seems more like an exclamation. So basically, Christ asked the same question twice, then a follow-up question using the lessor form of a Greek word for 'love'.

Here is the version from The Complete Apostles' Bible which brings it out better, IMO:

John 21:15 So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I care for You." He said to him, "Feed My lambs."

John 21:16 He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I care for You." He said to him, "Shepherd My sheep."

John 21:17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you care for Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you care for Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I care for You." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep.

Blessings.

Frances
Apr 20th 2008, 05:24 PM
just want some clarification if anyone knows, did this have something to do with Peter denying Him?

Yes, I think it does. A reminder that we must always acknowledge each time we deny Jesus Christ too (each time we commit Sin) - just lumping all Sins together will not do; to receive full release we need to confess each one to Him.

Teke
Apr 20th 2008, 09:08 PM
just want some clarification if anyone knows, did this have something to do with Peter denying Him?

Yes, Peter confesses Him three times, the same number as he denied him. The Lord restored Peter.

lookingToTheHills
Apr 21st 2008, 02:26 AM
kadeja and Teke, yes i believe that God does have a sense of humor and He wanted to reconcile Peter back to his rightful place, thanks to all who answered this, you guys are some bible scholars, I love this site!:D

Athanasius
Apr 21st 2008, 03:30 AM
As others have wonderfully pointed out, the English language is very restricted with the word 'love', whereas Greek had many different words for 'love'. This is why Jesus is asking Peter the same question three times in the English, but different questions in the Greek--different kinds of love.

Teke
Apr 21st 2008, 12:12 PM
135. THE SYNONYMOUS WORDS FOR "LOVE".


1. THE VERB.

1. agapao = to regard with favour, to make much of a thing or a person, on principle. The cause or ground of No. 2.

2. phileo = to kiss, to be fond of, having regard to feeling as distinct from principle. The demonstration of No. 1. Hence No. 2 is never used of man's love to God : this is always No. 1. Both words are used of God's love to man. No. 2 is used of the Lord's love for Lazarus (John 11:3, 36) but not in v. 5, where the sisters are included. See the notes on John 21:15-17; and on John 12:25.


2. THE NOUN.

1. agape. No. 2 below, was the common word used by the Greeks, for love; and even this is far lower than the N.T. philadelphia ( = love of the brethren). Agape is spontaneous love, irrespective of "rights". The word was supposed to be peculiar to the N.T., but it is found in the Papyri.

2. philanthropia = philanthropy, or love of man, which did not go beyond giving man his "rights", among the Greeks. It is used in a higher sense in Tit. 3:4; occurs elsewhere only in Acts 28:2. Cp. the Adverb philanthropos (Acts 27:3, "courteously").


3. THE ADJECTIVE.

agapetos = beloved. The word used of the Lord Jesus by the Father. See Matt. 3:17; 12:18; 17:5. Mark 1:11; 9:7. Luke 3:22; and in Mark 12:6. Luke 20:13, by Himself. A special epithet of the Saints in the Epistles.


Appendix 135 from the KJV Companion Bible

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interesting aside note
It has been observed in the text of Mark that Peter denied the Lord 6 times, three before each two times the "cock crowed".

Brother Mark
Apr 21st 2008, 12:15 PM
Jesus did ask him 3 times. And as has been pointed out, Peter used Phileo in each response. Had Jesus asked the question before Peter's denial, no doubt Peter would have said he agaped Jesus. Peter had learned of his own weaknesses. Just as Moses had learned and was then qualified to work with God for Israel's deliverance, now that Peter's pride had been dealt with, he could go and "feed my sheep".

I do not think it any accident that Jesus asked 3 times. For each time that Peter denied Christ, Christ gave him an opportunity to say he loved Him. Jesus knew it was only phileo love but that was good enough for the moment.

Teke
Apr 21st 2008, 12:54 PM
Jesus did ask him 3 times. And as has been pointed out, Peter used Phileo in each response.


Jesus knew it was only phileo love but that was good enough for the moment.


I posted the Greek so there wouldn't be any confusion over noun and verb. Seems your pointing out that Peter didn't really love Him to much or not enough and that is good enough. How do you get that out of a verb?

Brother Mark
Apr 21st 2008, 01:02 PM
I posted the Greek so there wouldn't be any confusion over noun and verb. Seems your pointing out that Peter didn't really love Him to much or not enough and that is good enough. How do you get that out of a verb?

One is a agape is to love as God loves. Whether noun or verb, it is meant to show love as God shows it. Phileo is a man kind of love. It is what even lost people feel for their family or loved ones.

Peter had not yet grown to love Jesus as Jesus loved Peter. 1 Cor 13 speaks of agape. Had Peter agaped Christ, he would not have denied him. Peter knew this and so did Jesus.

joztok
Apr 21st 2008, 01:23 PM
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interesting aside note
It has been observed in the text of Mark that Peter denied the Lord 6 times, three before each two times the "cock crowed".

Wha-? This sounds cool, but I can't see that in Mark's gospel.
Can you show this to me? Six times?

Teke
Apr 21st 2008, 01:30 PM
One is a agape is to love as God loves. Whether noun or verb, it is meant to show love as God shows it. Phileo is a man kind of love. It is what even lost people feel for their family or loved ones.

Yes, but God shows both toward man. ex. Phileo is used of the Lord's love for Lazarus.


Peter had not yet grown to love Jesus as Jesus loved Peter. 1 Cor 13 speaks of agape. Had Peter agaped Christ, he would not have denied him. Peter knew this and so did Jesus.

So your saying Peter isn't God, so he's not capable of the kind of love God has for mankind. That would make sense, and not leave Peter lacking as a man.

Teke
Apr 21st 2008, 01:32 PM
Wha-? This sounds cool, but I can't see that in Mark's gospel.
Can you show this to me? Six times?

Here (http://www.levendwater.org/companion/append160.html) is a study of them all. :)
from the KJV Companion bible appendixes

Brother Mark
Apr 21st 2008, 01:36 PM
Yes, but God shows both toward man. ex. Phileo is used of the Lord's love for Lazarus.

Right. I am not discounting phileo. I am just saying it is not the highest form of love.



So your saying Peter isn't God, so he's not capable of the kind of love God has for mankind. That would make sense, and not leave Peter lacking as a man.Close. I am going back to 1 Cor 13 and showing that without agape, man is really nothing. Phileo is good. But it is not what we, as believers, strive for. Even the lost feel phileo and eros. But only God can agape. But when we have God in us, we too can agape. But getting to that point is a process. It does not occur over night.

Eros is self love. We get saved because of eros.
Phileo is when we love others. After we begin to realize what God has done for us, feelings of phileo rise up within us. This is a strong love. Peter was experiencing this when he drew his sword in the garden. He was willing to fight and die for Jesus right then and there. That's why Paul wrote that perhaps some will die for a good man. But Jesus, he died for us while we were yet sinners! Phileo is a good love and highly motivates us.

But agape, that is the penultimate in love. 1 Cor 13 describes it in detail. Agape is what motivated Jesus to die on the cross. It is what Peter later walked in as he matured and God ministered to others through him. When Jesus and Peter had that conversation, Jesus was restoring Peter and letting Peter know that he could still minister with phileo love. While agape is the ultimate in loving, phileo is good enough to "feed my sheep".

Teke
Apr 21st 2008, 01:58 PM
It is what Peter later walked in as he matured and God ministered to others through him.


This is what I'm getting at on the subject. God's love is an energy, like mercy, forgiveness etc. As you put it, "Peter walked in" (to paraphrase your thought).
The "walking in" is how we participate with God in His energies. :saint:

Brother Mark
Apr 21st 2008, 02:57 PM
This is what I'm getting at on the subject. God's love is an energy, like mercy, forgiveness etc. As you put it, "Peter walked in" (to paraphrase your thought).
The "walking in" is how we participate with God in His energies. :saint:

OK. Energies is a different word but I can work with that. I like to think it more like "character" and the Holy Spirit within us. God makes us into His Son's image (Romans 8). And he empowers us with the Holy Spirit (Romans 8). Then we walk in love. God has shed his love abroad in our hearts.

The issue I am getting at is that phileo is a very powerful motivating "energy". But it is insufficient for Godliness. It will let us down. But agape will never let us down because it is completely selfless. Peter was not yet walking in that kind of character and power when he went back to fishing. Oh, he phileod Jesus! But he did not agape Jesus. But as we examine the books of 1 and 2 Peter, we see that he learned to agape. Hopefully, we all walk this path of growth.

1of7000
Apr 27th 2008, 03:50 AM
It wasn't Peter's love being questioned but what Peter would do with that love.

At the first question is told to "feed my sheep" Greek being "little lambs"

The second Peter is told to feed the "ewes"

And the third he is told to feed the "mature sheep"