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DeadToSelf
Apr 21st 2008, 03:06 AM
Has anyone ever herd of him?

BrckBrln
Apr 21st 2008, 03:25 AM
I've heard of him but have never heard him preach or anything. I hear he is great though.

DeadToSelf
Apr 21st 2008, 03:29 AM
Yeah he is a good preacher. Of course GOD gave him that ability to preach that way. Which is amazing.

Honestly if anyone of you haven't listend to him preach you are totally missing out!!!

If you guys/gals want you can get his podcast on itunes. Just go under podcasts and type in sermonaudio.com or paul washer and download.

torazon
Apr 21st 2008, 03:59 AM
There is another thread around here somewhere on Paul Washer. I like his preaching a lot myself.

danield
Apr 21st 2008, 05:36 AM
I just listened to his sermon on u tube. I love any preacher that speaks from his heart about loving the lord and his ways. And he did put his heart into that sermon. I hope he touched some of his listeners. In his sermon he seemed very emotional and at first it really touched me, but at the end it kind of disturbed me. I am not sure why. I will have to listen to him again to perhaps understand where it is coming from. However all in all I think he is doing great things for the lord because I believe in much of what he is saying, and hope and pray he reaches many for the Lord!:pp

God Bless!

daughter
Apr 21st 2008, 08:16 AM
I think people get disturbed by a man who is emotional. But if we can't get emotional and throw our respectability to the wind for God, then we're in trouble. It is so completely counter cultural for a man to speak with passion. Yes, you will hear preachers get angry about sin, but it's harder to hear a preacher weep about sin. That really gets you in a way that anger doesn't.

But what is interesting is that the unsaved will say about an angry preacher, "oh, he's angry, he's full of hate... he should be upset that people are going to hell, not rubbing it in our faces." (That's not what those preachers are doing, most of them anyway, but the unsaved are always looking for something to pick on so they don't have to listen to the message.) Yet the same people, if they hear someone heart broken about sin and in tears over hell, will say, "oh, he's overemotional... he needs to see a counsellor!"

It seems to me that I've been disturbed listening to Washer (and other preachers) because the truth is, I don't always have that awareness of sin, I don't always weep over the fate of the damned. And I'm sure Washer can't either, or he'd be unable to function. But sometimes when you draw near to God, and you see a glimpse of His raw love, and holiness, you're going to have no option but to weep.

That's what makes us uncomfortable - the fact that it is strange and other for a man to cry in public. But the message is sound.

Rullion Green
Apr 21st 2008, 10:28 AM
Has anyone ever herd of him?

Hi there i dont know if this is allowed but, i have some of Paul washers sermons on my website, they are in the information section if you would like to hear him preach :)


http://christian.scripterz.org/index.php?p=1_4_Information-Films

or you can do a google video search ! well worth watching

godsgirl
Apr 21st 2008, 11:50 AM
I have Paul Washer on my MP3-and listen to him at work. I think he's bringing out a lot of what much of the church has been missing out on these past several years. Personal holiness and throwing out the "ask Jesus in your heart-and your life will be great" or the "I'm saved therefore I can do what ever I want and it won't keep me from heaven" crowd.

Whispering Grace
Apr 21st 2008, 12:08 PM
Paul Washer is one of my favorite preachers, even if he is a flaming Calvinist. :cool:

Rullion Green
Apr 21st 2008, 01:14 PM
Paul Washer is one of my favorite preachers, even if he is a flaming Calvinist. :cool:

:lol: easy to spot the calvanist views though. Still a important message to be heard even though i'm not a calvinist. Baby and the bathwater lol.:)

daughter
Apr 21st 2008, 01:23 PM
I wouldn't say that I'm a calvinist, because I've not studied that aspect of theology. My brain though would like to be arminian. But I do know that I would NEVER of my own volition wanted to be Christian. One day I couldn't stand Christians, was glaring at them with utter hatred and muttering curses under my breath... the next I'm weeping into my hands calling on God. It was just like a thunderclap went off inside me.

I know that I had very little, actually nothing, to do with my salvation.

But then, perhaps other people aren't as wicked as I was, and can come by easier routes.

Rullion Green
Apr 21st 2008, 02:37 PM
I dont belong to either camp, Salvation is of the Lord thats as far as my calvanisim goes. Poses more questions than it answers but there it is.

danield
Apr 21st 2008, 03:48 PM
First of all let me state loudly that I do believe in what he is trying to say. I wholeheartedly think his message needs to get out to as many self proclaiming Christians who live in sin but go to church claiming to be a Christian. And their pastors are convincing them that they are saved because they said a small prayer 20 years ago. In essence it is not the 20 second prayer that saves you but the earnest repentance and a change of heart to follow Christ and his ways instead of sin that is paramount in salvation.

With that being said, I was thinking just before I went to sleep last night about what upset me at the end of his sermon, and the more I thought about it I guess it started when he said that when his son turned 18 he would rejoice to send his son off into a dangerous area to witness for Christ. And if he died in that service he would rejoice because he would be great in the Kingdom of heaven. And then he went off into in my opinion an inappropriate showing of emotion.

Now first of all I completely understand that if you literally give you’re life to the lord while witnessing for him is probably one of the greatest things you can do for him, but I want to caution people with this train of thought. Christ does not want you to die for him if you do not have to, but he wants you to live for him and witness to as many people as possible. His disciples lived a long life trying their best to show everyone how to love God, and what a wonderful crop of fruit it produced. They helped nurture the seed that Christ planted at his death at Calvary. I think Christ’s Goal for us is to not fear even death itself, but it is not to honor him by marching off to death for him when you do not have to.

The second thing was at the end his sermon his emotion seems to be out of the ordinary. It was not that he was pouring his heart out in grief for people who were caught up in a lie about salvation, but the crying for that long with no tears struck me as awkward. Be grievous, cry, get on a rooftop and yell to millions of people that living is sin is wrong, but do not pretend to grandstand a sermon from an emotional point of view if the substantive emotion is not there.

However, he is right on target with his interpretation of scripture in Matthew 7 imo. I will look forward to seeing much more of him anytime I can!

God Bless!

daughter
Apr 21st 2008, 03:52 PM
I really don't think he was grandstanding. You're actually accusing him of lying? That's a serious charge. Also, you say, of the disciples, that they "lived a long life trying their best to show everyone how to love God." Not all of them did. Some of them did, but most of them were martyred.

danield
Apr 21st 2008, 06:44 PM
I really don't think he was grandstanding. You're actually accusing him of lying? That's a serious charge. Also, you say, of the disciples, that they "lived a long life trying their best to show everyone how to love God." Not all of them did. Some of them did, but most of them were martyred.


I am not accusing him of lying. I am saying that if you act like you are crying for 5 minutes and do not shed tears something is inappropriate. It is not a serious charge, but an accurate visualization of what I saw. I can be accused of being a back seat driver which I am guilty of and I am not proud of and I really wish I had the talent to inspire people to follow Christ but I don’t nor have I ever been given the opportunity.

I also think he is missing a lot when he is talking about dying for Christ. I think he is wrong on it. The way he put it is to seek out death for Christ’s sake when that is not what the Lord wants for anyone.


NLT Proverbs 20:3 Avoiding a fight is a mark of honor; only fools insist on quarreling.


How many times did Christ not stand there and die when a crowd became upset.

John 8:58-59 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.

He knew he had a ministry so he used his head and he did not stand there and insist on quarreling with his fellow man and get stoned to death. I am trying to show everyone that the lord does not want you to just go out and get yourself killed for the sake of his name.

It is true that if we are backed up in a corner we are to never deny Christ, and if we die from that persecution, we can rejoice because you will be great in heaven, but that was not what Paul Washer was talking about at least in that segment I saw. He said that he would rejoice to send his child off after the age of 18 into a dangerous zone and to see him die to people who were persecuting Christians. He thought it would be great because he would be in great standing in heaven.


Matthew 7:9-11 9 "You parents-- if your children ask for a loaf of bread, do you give them a stone instead? 10 Or if they ask for a fish, do you give them a snake? Of course not! 11 So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good gifts to those who ask him.

I don’t know about you, but most every time I see Christ hanging on the cross taking agonizing pain on my behalf it hurts me deeply because I hate to see someone I love in pain. It makes me cry real tears to see him have to endure that kind of punishment for me. I am very grateful and overjoyed when I see him defeat death and I know Christ reigns gloriously in heaven, but I would never want anyone I love to have to endure suffering especially if they did not have to. Christ came to a point in his life and ministry that he knew he had to die for us and that is the difference.

No, I am not calling Paul Washer a liar, but I am saying that he is misguided in those two sections of his sermon. I am sorry you do not see what I am talking about. By the way what he suggested in that segment was very serious, and I guess that is what caught me off guard. I believe in what he was saying in most of his sermon, and have for many years. I hope he continues preaching in great glory, but I do hope he rethinks the delivery of those two points.

God Bless

timmyb
Apr 21st 2008, 07:00 PM
my opinion on Paul Washer:

He is good and preaches a holiness message unlike none I have ever heard. But my only problem with him is that he preaches the letter that kills and very little of the spirit that gives life. He can go overboard at times. But otherwise he is a good preacher. Pretty much the baby/bathwater principle... i am by all means do not subscribe to reformed theology, he does preach a message that the church needs to hear..

danield
Apr 21st 2008, 07:17 PM
You know it could be that he is still just a young man, and as he grows in Christ his message will certainly bloom to an even greater glory! I will defiantly have patience with him because I think he is on the right track!

timmyb
Apr 21st 2008, 07:18 PM
i agree danield

Rullion Green
Apr 21st 2008, 07:47 PM
I dont agree with Paul Washer style of preaching all the time, that is when he gives personal views on a situation outside scripture, but i think his messages are Biblical and well worth listening to.

It is like when i listen to any preacher i take what is good and Biblical and leave what i dont need e.g a personal view i dont subscribe to or think could be put across in a different way.

I think we all agree that his messages are biblical and in much need in todays climate, but perhaps dont like the style sometimes ? different strokes for different folks, take what you need and leave what you dont. :)

He can be very humble at times and very harsh others but i think he is needed.

daughter
Apr 21st 2008, 08:06 PM
Ah, those feelings again. Well, if that's all you have against him, "he's creepy", perhaps you shouldn't post your opinions publically against someone who is, whether we like him personally or not, doing a great deal for God's Kingdom.

And for the record, I'm a vegan, and I really don't like a certain aspect of his personal life... that he's a hunter. I've spent years and years sabotaging hunts in the UK. So it's not like I'm a Washer groupy. If I wanted to hold something against him it would be the fact that he can look at a creature God made and see it just as a target in sport. But I don't do that, because when he preaches, he's preaching a directly biblical message, which we need to hear.

The least important part of someone's life is what they look like in the pulpit, whether they are politically correct, socially acceptable, civilised, or even creepy. Do we have the word of God in common? Do we share in Christ?

If so, then we are family, and shouldn't do the devil's work of pulling each other down.

ProjectPeter
Apr 23rd 2008, 12:53 PM
A couple of things... If a person doesn't enjoy the guys preaching and they have a reason then cool... state the reason and explain it. But let's not publicly make comments about a guy just based on absolutely nothing. Some comments can be taken horribly wrong and the next thing you know it can grow into something nasty.

Also... since this really has nothing to do with Bible Chat... I am shipping it over to Anything Goes. :lol:

daughter
Apr 23rd 2008, 01:02 PM
Just posting quickly to point out that my previous post was in response to a comment that seems to have been deleted. Just in case anyone thinks I'm having a go at them when I'm not!

ProjectPeter
Apr 23rd 2008, 01:14 PM
Yeah... I almost deleted it but there was enough good in there that I didn't want to. :)

And yes... for the record folks.. that wasn't directed towards daughter in any form.

VerticalReality
Apr 23rd 2008, 06:36 PM
Paul Washer seems like a pretty passionate preacher of the gospel from everything I have seen. I haven't heard a lot of his sermons, but what I have heard has been pretty good.

9Marksfan
Apr 23rd 2008, 11:49 PM
I wouldn't say that I'm a calvinist, because I've not studied that aspect of theology. My brain though would like to be arminian. But I do know that I would NEVER of my own volition wanted to be Christian. One day I couldn't stand Christians, was glaring at them with utter hatred and muttering curses under my breath... the next I'm weeping into my hands calling on God. It was just like a thunderclap went off inside me.

I know that I had very little, actually nothing, to do with my salvation.

But then, perhaps other people aren't as wicked as I was, and can come by easier routes.

Nope! We were all dead and all made alive in Christ! That's grace! :pp

9Marksfan
Apr 23rd 2008, 11:54 PM
Christ does not want you to die for him if you do not have to, but he wants you to live for him and witness to as many people as possible.

How can you be so proscriptive about God's will for other Christians? Look at Stephen - should he have avoided only preaching one great sermon?


I think Christ’s Goal for us is to not fear even death itself, but it is not to honor him by marching off to death for him when you do not have to.

How would you be able to tell when "you do not have to"?

9Marksfan
Apr 24th 2008, 12:00 AM
I also think he is missing a lot when he is talking about dying for Christ. I think he is wrong on it. The way he put it is to seek out death for Christ’s sake when that is not what the Lord wants for anyone.

So it wasn't Christ's will for any of the disciples who were martyred (all but one, probably) to die? And for martyrs down through the centuries? They were all just dumb and unwise?


How many times did Christ not stand there and die when a crowd became upset.

He knew he had a ministry so he used his head and he did not stand there and insist on quarreling with his fellow man and get stoned to death.

No - many times He was miraculously preserved - just walking through the crowd - it was because "His hour had not yet come" - He HAD to die in a particular way at a particular time - in God's timing.


I am trying to show everyone that the lord does not want you to just go out and get yourself killed for the sake of his name.

Never?


It is true that if we are backed up in a corner we are to never deny Christ, and if we die from that persecution, we can rejoice because you will be great in heaven, but that was not what Paul Washer was talking about at least in that segment I saw. He said that he would rejoice to send his child off after the age of 18 into a dangerous zone and to see him die to people who were persecuting Christians. He thought it would be great because he would be in great standing in heaven.

Why wouldn't it be? If we have hope in Christ for this life alone - remember how it finishes?

danield
Apr 24th 2008, 02:32 AM
In his sermon he said that he would be happy to pat his son on the back and send him off into a dangerous area to die for Christ. It was like he was sending him in for the next play on a football field, and he would be happy and rejoiced about it because he would be great in the kingdom of God.

Now guys this does not have to get complicated. This statement is not right. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. I am not sure where this ideology of dying from Christ gets interpreted into going out and finding death for Christ. There is a huge difference. Why are you defending this attitude? I would never lead my Christian brother into death just so he could die for Christ. And I certainly would not my son. I would also grieve greatly for my loss of not having him here on earth with me. Yes, he would be great in heaven, but it still would not stop my pain and grief from my loss here on earth.

If God wanted us to send our sons to death for him then he would have had Abraham kill his Isaac. He would have never sent him that other suitable sacrifice. And it does not show great faith in the lord to want to have your son sacrificed for the lord either. Even Abraham grieved greatly over what he had to do. He was not happy about what he knew he had to do!

When we read

Matthew 5:10-12 10 "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 ¶ "Blessed are you when men cast insults at you, and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, on account of Me. 12 "Rejoice, and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

It is an uplifting message to encourage us to not to fear anything in our lives even during persecution from our beliefs. It also turns our fear into joy when we see how much we will be rewarded in heaven for giving everything on earth to our Lord and Savior even our very lives, but NOWHERE in this passage does it say that we are to go out a look for death so that we can die for the lord. There is not one passage in the Bible that says we are to seek out death on behalf of our lord.

The lord may not even want you to die for him and here we are putting ourselves in harms way just to martyr ourselves in the kingdom of God. (remember God knows everything, even your deepest thoughts… you can’t fool God) It shows the thirst for power in a kingdom where it says that the last shall be first. So if you are running out to get your own son killed so he can be great in the kingdom of God. What does that show? To me, I see it as wrong.


How can you be so proscriptive about God's will for other Christians? Look at Stephen - should he have avoided only preaching one great sermon?
Because I can see many cults on the news where people are doing all sorts of things they are not suppose to. I want everyone to follow the Lord even if it cost them their very life, but seeing a Jim Jones happen is just disgusting.


How would you be able to tell when "you do not have to"?

The same way I know when a poisonous snake is just ahead of me. God blessed me with the ability to not step on him. If there is a crazy man wanting to kill Christians in the Congo.. go to the teke bar instead and pull the tea totaling old men and women off their bar stools and bring them into CHURCH! Need I say more!


So it wasn't Christ's will for any of the disciples who were martyred (all but one, probably) to die? And for martyrs down through the centuries? They were all just dumb and unwise?

I think it would have been unwise if something like this would have happened which is closer to our point. Since all the disciples knew that Christ was going to the cross. They all decided to just step in and get crucified right along side with Christ so that they too could be thought of as great in God’s kingdom with out carrying the gospel to all the world as they did.

I have said several times that there is nothing on this earth that we should hold onto and put before the lord including your life. If a decision comes your way that you either have to give your life for the Lord or deny him, GIVE YOUR LIFE TO THE LORD. It would be a wonderful show of love, and you will be rewarded greatly in heaven, but if you do not have to and go out and get yourself killed to be great in heaven then that is wrong.

For example, let’s say you decided to do just that. You took your mission and everyone went into a very hostile area to witness to people who you knew were just going to kill you any way. They decided to take you hostage, and in that crisis, someone outside your group lost their life trying to save you, and in the end you were let free. Now who’s is to blame for that death? Quickly you can say Oh it was the person who held me hostage, but you did not even have to go in there to witness to him to begin with, and here is someone that died because of your actions. How will God judge you for this? It is irresponsible.


No - many times He was miraculously preserved - just walking through the crowd - it was because "His hour had not yet come" - He HAD to die in a particular way at a particular time - in God's timing.

Jesus used his head that God gave him. God did not open up a special gate to get him out the back entrance. Jesus saw the hostility growing and left. It was not miraculous that Jesus saw the commotion in the crowd and felt it was not appropriate to agitate them.

As far as his hour he knew when his ministry was at an end here on earth. God even sent Mosses and Elijah to comfort him. He cried blood because of the strain of what he knew he had to endure. The crosses were plentiful along the streets leading out of the cities so he knew what he was up against. But he did not just go out to the first centurion and ask him to nail him to the cross, nor did he run to the Pharisees and say here I am… he let them COME to him and take him by force. Why don’t people get it?


Never?

Yes there are times when it is necessary to give you life to the lord. We should hold nothing back from Jesus including our very lives. In revelation, it clearly says that we are going to have a choice between our very lives or taking the mark… NEVER, EVER choose to follow evil instead of good. And NEVER, EVER take the mark. Choose death on earth because it means everlasting life in heaven.

But committing a questionable suicide is not giving your life to the lord. God may have work in store for you that he needs you to live for.

If you do face persecution in an uprising revolt that is out of your control then the ultimate sacrifice is appropriate. Remember I am not suggesting to deny the lord EVER in ANY situation even upon the face of death. But what I am suggesting is don’t run into a “burning building and claim to die for God! Or better yet send you son into that burning building and rejoice over your decision!


Why wouldn't it be? If we have hope in Christ for this life alone - remember how it finishes?

I have answered the question so many times above I do hope you understand what I am saying. Use common sense and love for your fellow man. Do not send him in harms way if he does not have to. Do not go into a den of drug addicts holding guns to witness to them. Wait until they come down off their drugs and witness to them. God gave us brains .. We need to use them.

If you do not believe me then believe Jesus

Matthew 4:6-7 6 and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God throw Yourself down; for it is written, 'He will give His angels charge concerning You'; and 'On their hands they will bear You up, Lest You strike Your foot against a stone.'" 7 Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

Don’t test the lord in anything that you do. Including martyrdom! And don’t be tricked into giving your life when it is not necessary.

God Bless!

daughter
Apr 24th 2008, 10:28 AM
Abraham trusted God, and he was prepared to offer his son. Washer is not talking about killing his son, he's simply saying that he would be proud of his son if he chose that path. And I would be proud of my son, if he chose that path. Jesus says anyone who loves anyone or anything more than Him... including family... is not worthy of Him.

If my son chose of his own free will to go and serve God as a missionary and risk his life for Him, I would be so proud and humbled, and I'd thank God, whatever happened.

daughter
Apr 24th 2008, 10:35 AM
By the way... it dawns on me. Why this concern to tell us not to throw our lives away in unecessary martyrdom. This is not something that is exactly common in the West, is it? We have hardly any martyrs. Hardly anyone will give up their job, or their friends for the gospel... let alone their lives. So it seems you're preaching an utterly unecessary warning here. Where the West is at the moment, we need to go in the utterly opposite direction from comfort and material well being.

9Marksfan
Apr 24th 2008, 11:28 AM
In his sermon he said that he would be happy to pat his son on the back and send him off into a dangerous area to die for Christ. It was like he was sending him in for the next play on a football field, and he would be happy and rejoiced about it because he would be great in the kingdom of God.

I'll have to listen carefully but I think you're reading too much into what he's saying.


Now guys this does not have to get complicated. This statement is not right. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. I am not sure where this ideology of dying from Christ gets interpreted into going out and finding death for Christ. There is a huge difference. Why are you defending this attitude?

I don't believe that IS his attitude - if it were, it would be wrong - we are not to be foolhardy, nor presumptuous - but we are not to be afraid or cowardly either.....


I would never lead my Christian brother into death just so he could die for Christ. And I certainly would not my son.

But IS Paul Washer saying that? What if his son were certain it was the LORD's will for him to go? DARE any of us as parents say "No! No! You might get killed!"?


I would also grieve greatly for my loss of not having him here on earth with me. Yes, he would be great in heaven, but it still would not stop my pain and grief from my loss here on earth.

Ah, there's the rub......your being spared grief is more important than facing danger and death for Christ. Do you know the story of Jim Elliot and the Auca Indians 50 years ago?


If God wanted us to send our sons to death for him then he would have had Abraham kill his Isaac.

No - different set of circumstances altogether. But the thing was, Abraham WAS willing - and he pased the test - Isaac wasn't sacrificed because God wanted to teach a far greater spiritual lesson about substitution, not sparing His OWN Son and providing HIMSELF the sacrifice.


He would have never sent him that other suitable sacrifice. And it does not show great faith in the lord to want to have your son sacrificed for the lord either. Even Abraham grieved greatly over what he had to do. He was not happy about what he knew he had to do!

When we read

Matthew 5:10-12 10 "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 ¶ "Blessed are you when men cast insults at you, and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, on account of Me. 12 "Rejoice, and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

It is an uplifting message to encourage us to not to fear anything in our lives even during persecution from our beliefs. It also turns our fear into joy when we see how much we will be rewarded in heaven for giving everything on earth to our Lord and Savior even our very lives, but NOWHERE in this passage does it say that we are to go out a look for death so that we can die for the lord. There is not one passage in the Bible that says we are to seek out death on behalf of our lord.

Granted, but do you accept that believers must be prepared to lose their lives for the gospel IF it is God's will?


The lord may not even want you to die for him and here we are putting ourselves in harms way just to martyr ourselves in the kingdom of God.

Again, granted - but do you accept that it MIGHT be His will for us to die for Him by going into dangerous situations because people need to hear of Christ?


(remember God knows everything, even your deepest thoughts… you can’t fool God) It shows the thirst for power in a kingdom where it says that the last shall be first. So if you are running out to get your own son killed so he can be great in the kingdom of God. What does that show? To me, I see it as wrong.

Well, that kind of pride is a real danger - but I don't think that's the point PW was making - or his desire - he wanted to put over that dying for Christ is an AMAZING HONOUR and IN NO WAY A LOSS - should God call you to that - THAT is the key point - is God calling you to die for Him?


Because I can see many cults on the news where people are doing all sorts of things they are not suppose to. I want everyone to follow the Lord even if it cost them their very life, but seeing a Jim Jones happen is just disgusting.

You REALLY can't compare PW with Jones! Are you?


The same way I know when a poisonous snake is just ahead of me. God blessed me with the ability to not step on him.

That's not the same thing - no good would be served by your stepping on the snake - it would be sheer folly - or presumption that God would look after you.


If there is a crazy man wanting to kill Christians in the Congo.. go to the teke bar instead and pull the tea totaling old men and women off their bar stools and bring them into CHURCH! Need I say more!

So Christians should only witness where it's safe to do so? And let the dangerous people in dangerous areas all go to Hell, so long as I can have a nice safe life witnessing at home?


I think it would have been unwise if something like this would have happened which is closer to our point. Since all the disciples knew that Christ was going to the cross. They all decided to just step in and get crucified right along side with Christ so that they too could be thought of as great in God’s kingdom with out carrying the gospel to all the world as they did.

But my point is - do you believe when they were martyred they were being foolhardy or it was genuinely God's will for them to die that way?


I have said several times that there is nothing on this earth that we should hold onto and put before the lord including your life.

Really? Your paragraph about the Congo seems to take a different line.....


If a decision comes your way that you either have to give your life for the Lord or deny him, GIVE YOUR LIFE TO THE LORD. It would be a wonderful show of love, and you will be rewarded greatly in heaven, but if you do not have to and go out and get yourself killed to be great in heaven then that is wrong.

Agreed - but you seem to be ruling out the possibility that God DOES call people to die for Him in dangerous situations where a witness is required.


For example, let’s say you decided to do just that. You took your mission and everyone went into a very hostile area to witness to people who you knew were just going to kill you any way.

Sounds pretty like Jim Elliot and friends' case - but they knew the LORD had called them:-

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep in order to gain what he cannot lose."


They decided to take you hostage, and in that crisis, someone outside your group lost their life trying to save you, and in the end you were let free. Now who’s is to blame for that death? Quickly you can say Oh it was the person who held me hostage, but you did not even have to go in there to witness to him to begin with, and here is someone that died because of your actions. How will God judge you for this? It is irresponsible.

It all depends on whether God called you to it in the first place - COULD He have done so? DOES He do that?


Jesus used his head that God gave him.

He always did what pleased His Father - do you believe He was fully man and fully God while on Earth?


God did not open up a special gate to get him out the back entrance. Jesus saw the hostility growing and left. It was not miraculous that Jesus saw the commotion in the crowd and felt it was not appropriate to agitate them.

So all those in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, and rose up and thrust Him out of the city; and they led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city was built, that they might throw Him down over the cliff. Then passing through the midst of them, He went His way. Lk 4:28-30 NKJV

Sounds pretty miraculous to me, no? God was protecting him because his time had not yet come - if you look at Paul's preaching in Acts, I think you'd have considered him a fool if you'd been with him! So did everyone else:-

Now when we heard these things, both we and those from that place pleaded with him not to go up to Jerusalem. Then Paul answered, “What do you mean by weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.” So when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, “The will of the Lord be done.” Acts 21:12-14 NKJV

He was ready - but it wasn't God's will for him to die at THAT stage - but it WAS His will for him to be go to Jerusalem and be bound. And it was God's will for Him to go to Rome - where he would be executed - that was God's will too.


As far as his hour he knew when his ministry was at an end here on earth.

What do you believe was his ministry? Teaching and healing?


God even sent Mosses and Elijah to comfort him.

No - where do you get that idea from?


He cried blood because of the strain of what he knew he had to endure.

Crucifixion?


The crosses were plentiful along the streets leading out of the cities so he knew what he was up against. But he did not just go out to the first centurion and ask him to nail him to the cross, nor did he run to the Pharisees and say here I am… he let them COME to him and take him by force. Why don’t people get it?

He submitted to God's will at all times - but He CHOSE to go up to Jerusalem in the first place!


Yes there are times when it is necessary to give you life to the lord. We should hold nothing back from Jesus including our very lives. In revelation, it clearly says that we are going to have a choice between our very lives or taking the mark… NEVER, EVER choose to follow evil instead of good. And NEVER, EVER take the mark. Choose death on earth because it means everlasting life in heaven.

We may have to make that choice more often than we think....


But committing a questionable suicide is not giving your life to the lord. God may have work in store for you that he needs you to live for.

But are we WILLING for both?


If you do face persecution in an uprising revolt that is out of your control then the ultimate sacrifice is appropriate. Remember I am not suggesting to deny the lord EVER in ANY situation even upon the face of death. But what I am suggesting is don’t run into a “burning building and claim to die for God! Or better yet send you son into that burning building and rejoice over your decision!

You are blowing what PW said out of proportion - you seem to think that God will only bring such trouble your way and that He will never send you into that situation!

I have answered the question so many times above I do hope you understand what I am saying. Use common sense and love for your fellow man. Do not send him in harms way if he does not have to. Do not go into a den of drug addicts holding guns to witness to them. Wait until they come down off their drugs and witness to them. God gave us brains .. We need to use them.

If you do not believe me then believe Jesus

Matthew 4:6-7 6 and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God throw Yourself down; for it is written, 'He will give His angels charge concerning You'; and 'On their hands they will bear You up, Lest You strike Your foot against a stone.'" 7 Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

Don’t test the lord in anything that you do. Including martyrdom! And don’t be tricked into giving your life when it is not necessary.

God Bless![/quote]

9Marksfan
Apr 24th 2008, 01:18 PM
Sorry - had to go earlier - will finish my reply now.


I have answered the question so many times above I do hope you understand what I am saying. Use common sense and love for your fellow man.

Isn't there ANY place for discerning the Lord's will?


Do not send him in harms way if he does not have to.

Can I just say that there was an invitation made at the Together For The Gospel '08 Conference in Louisville, KY last week to give an example of sacrificial living for Christ - the person who impressed the organisers most (and of course it was someone else who nominated them) was a mother who encouraged her child to stay on the mission filed in a dangerous Muslim country - bu your approach, both the mother and the organisers of T4G (some of the finest preachers in the world today) are either off their rockers or unfit to be parents or on the verge of being cultists.....


Do not go into a den of drug addicts holding guns to witness to them.

A teenage girl in the church I went to as a student in the 80s went to an Alice Cooper concert after the evening service onece when he was in town in the 70s - in the days when the police were concerned that someone might be killed at his deabauched concerts - her aim? To meet him after the show to tell him about Jesus. Now there will no doubt have been many, many other links in the chain over the years, but Alice Cooper now claims to be a born again Christian and is happy to be identified with conferences like T4G - was she stupid? No way! Was she prepared to risk her life for Christ? Absolutely - and I believe God honoured her witness.


Wait until they come down off their drugs and witness to them.

But in the meantime, what if they OD and go to Helll? You got a verse that tells us "STAY in all your homes and wait till it's safe to preach the gospel to every creature!"?


God gave us brains .. We need to use them.

He also gave us His Spirit that we might have the mind of Christ - and Christ went into the dangerous places and mingled with the dangerous people - so should we.....


If you do not believe me then believe Jesus

Matthew 4:6-7 6 and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God throw Yourself down; for it is written, 'He will give His angels charge concerning You'; and 'On their hands they will bear You up, Lest You strike Your foot against a stone.'" 7 Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

Don’t test the lord in anything that you do. Including martyrdom!

Listen - we're AGREED that we should not be foolhardy or - worse - presumptuous - but to say that God never calls us into dangerous, life-threatening situations is just nonsense - read the book of Acts! Esp ch 14:19-20!


And don’t be tricked into giving your life when it is not necessary.

God Bless!

Again - WHEN is it not necessary? You seem to be saying "whenever you might be walking into a dangerous situation". Friend, if everyone were to take that approach, there are large parts of the world today that would NEVER have any witness - the same can be said down through the centuries. Do you REALLY think King Jesus is happy for everyone to stay home in their "safe" little environments, while the unreached peoples of the world in Muslim and Hindu countries just go to Hell?

"Go into ALL the world......." Mk 16:15 NKJV

".....and lo, I am with you ALWAYS, even unto the end of the age". Matt 28:20 NKJV

9Marksfan
Apr 24th 2008, 01:21 PM
If my son chose of his own free will to go and serve God as a missionary and risk his life for Him, I would be so proud and humbled, and I'd thank God, whatever happened.

Me too! He's telling everyone now about Jesus and he's only 6! His zeal for evangelism totally puts me to shame. Poor wee guy has no friends because of this and longs for another Christian friend - but nothing is going to change his love for Jesus! :)

9Marksfan
Apr 24th 2008, 01:25 PM
By the way... it dawns on me. Why this concern to tell us not to throw our lives away in unecessary martyrdom. This is not something that is exactly common in the West, is it? We have hardly any martyrs. Hardly anyone will give up their job, or their friends for the gospel... let alone their lives. So it seems you're preaching an utterly unecessary warning here. Where the West is at the moment, we need to go in the utterly opposite direction from comfort and material well being.

Well said! We need to learn from the persecuted church. I was at a conference on Saturday in Glasgow where the main speaker had recently come back from ministering in Pakistan. He was discussing a church he knew with another pastor and was describing it as an evangelical church - the Pakistani pastor immediately said "But THEY'RE not evangelicals!" The speaker was surprised, because these people were utterly orthodox in their belief and understood and believed the gospel - had some false teaching crept in? No - the reason that the Pakistani pastor did not considr them evangelicals was because THEY DID NOT GO OUT AND PREACH THE GOSPEL TO PEOPLE! And in Pakistan you really CAN get killed for doing that!

WHAT a challenge!

danield
Apr 24th 2008, 07:14 PM
By the way... it dawns on me. Why this concern to tell us not to throw our lives away in unecessary martyrdom. This is not something that is exactly common in the West, is it? We have hardly any martyrs. Hardly anyone will give up their job, or their friends for the gospel... let alone their lives. So it seems you're preaching an utterly unecessary warning here. Where the West is at the moment, we need to go in the utterly opposite direction from comfort and material well being.

I am so sorry you feel this about the west. The Christians in this country are some of the bravest most passionate people about God. The preacher we are talking about comes from Alabama. I personally know several people who have given much to the glory of God, and would not hesitate to die for the lord. They have certainty lived a hard life for the lord. It seems that I am being put down because I believe that to seek out martyrdom is drawing a fine line to self worship and should not be practiced. As far as not having any martyr that live among us that is not true. We do have true saints, and I think of them each and every time they live for the Lord!..

As far as the danger of unnecessary martyrdom… it is great. How many cults have we seen over the past few years that took in people with extremely strong beliefs for the lord and turned them into something horrible? So if you preach the subtle message “only a great Christian seeks out death on behalf of the lord,” how many people will take that as a way to achieve paradise, and especially at a teen rally when their minds are extremely vulnerable.

You both have kept up with the news; you both even know that the AC is going to come as an angel of light. He will require many to die for his cause too. How can you not see the dangers?

Mark, you took this issue into a line by line debate over weather I think dying for the lord is a worthy cause. I have said repeatedly that I think it is and to never deny the lord. But the difference in what you are saying and what I am saying is that I do not believe in seeking out martyrdom. If it is God’s will to bring it down your path.. so be it. Claim your crown in heaven. However, I do not think that putting yourself in danger to get killed is martyrdom. I see someone like Mother Teresa as having a much larger role in heaven. Sometimes it is much harder task to live than it is to die. The act of dying is not that big of deal. The suffering until death is the hard part.


We need to learn from the persecuted church.

I think there is a lot we can learn from the persecuted church!

I will close by saying that I think PW did a great job on his sermon warning people about not truly following Christ. But I do disagree with the two points I have debated so vigorously. I think he was just young and very enthused about his passion for the Lord and perhaps went a bit over board about his dreams of martyrdom for his son. A passion for missionary work and a passion for martyrdom are two different things.

As far as when it is necessary, again if you do not want to take heed to what I am saying then listen to Jesus,

Matthew 10:16 6 ¶ "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; therefore
be shrewd as serpents, and innocent as doves.

Use your head and if they do not take heed of your words…

Matthew 10:14 14 "And whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Do not stay there and forcefully become a martyr!

I hope and pray you understand my message!

God bless.

threebigrocks
Apr 24th 2008, 07:25 PM
Paul Washer is not that young. Age cannot be a true measuring rod of maturity in faith. Take a look at 1 Timothy 4 and the book of Jeremiah. ;)

His preaching and pov is a product of obedience to God, and with what he has done in that obedience most cannot relate to. That in and of itself can harden a person, where they see things so very differently it's something we cannot understand. Same as someone may not be able to fully understand how you or I relate because of where we have been.

He's not dramatic personality as in adding drama to his presentation. He's dramatic because of his passion for the Lord, not passion based on emotion.

danield
Apr 24th 2008, 08:11 PM
Paul Washer is not that young. Age cannot be a true measuring rod of maturity in faith. Take a look at 1 Timothy 4 and the book of Jeremiah. ;)

His preaching and pov is a product of obedience to God, and with what he has done in that obedience most cannot relate to. That in and of itself can harden a person, where they see things so very differently it's something we cannot understand. Same as someone may not be able to fully understand how you or I relate because of where we have been.

He's not dramatic personality as in adding drama to his presentation. He's dramatic because of his passion for the Lord, not passion based on emotion.

Is PW infallible? Btw this is not a POV. This is a major point of scripture.

It does not matter which level of maturity you are with Christ. Seeking out martyrdom is self worship and is a sin. Since you think my level of maturity in Christ is so low…. I challenge you to pray about it. Ask the Holy Spirit to open your eyes about how self worship is sinful. It elevates you to the level of Christ! We are to be his obedient servants not his obedient sacrifices. If our work becomes dangerous to the point of even costing us our very lives then we are to freely give it. But in the process we are to be as shrewd as serpents to avoid such conflicts. Our job is not to seek out death for righteous sake but to seek out Grace from our Lord and Savior who was the only righteous one ever. I am so sorry that you can not see the difference.

danield
Apr 24th 2008, 08:18 PM
NAS 1 Timothy 4:1 ¶ But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer. 6 ¶ In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. 7 But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness; 8 for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. 9 It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance. 10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 11 ¶ Prescribe and teach these things. 12 Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe. 13 Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching. 14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed upon you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery. 15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress may be evident to all. 16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things; for as you do this you will insure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you


Before I jump to conclusions… Just which part of this passage does it relate to what I am discussing?

threebigrocks
Apr 24th 2008, 08:30 PM
Is PW infallible? Btw this is not a POV. This is a major point of scripture.

Never said he was. He'd be the first to tell you he isn't.


It does not matter which level of maturity you are with Christ. Seeking out martyrdom is self worship and is a sin. Since you think my level of maturity in Christ is so low…. I challenge you to pray about it.

Uh, never said you had a low level of maturity at all. We have different paths we've traveled, different experiences. Maturity is different, and yes we certainly can differ at what level we are at. But never said yours was less.


Ask the Holy Spirit to open your eyes about how self worship is sinful. It elevates you to the level of Christ! We are to be his obedient servants not his obedient sacrifices. If our work becomes dangerous to the point of even costing us our very lives then we are to freely give it. But in the process we are to be as shrewd as serpents to avoid such conflicts. Our job is not to seek out death for righteous sake but to seek out Grace from our Lord and Savior who was the only righteous one ever. I am so sorry that you can not see the difference.

Faith for what we will have.

How is any of this different than someone's child graduating from a medical residency and being proud of them? If Paul Washer's son decides that's what he's doing and danger of loosing his life is involved, as a Christian, he ought to be proud and have his head held high but on his knees often in earnest prayer. Easy - no. But if you hold the view point of the eternal does it really matter? We are just called to go.

I could get shot on my street corner in my neighborhood sharing the gospel or beat up at a local college campus. Work at a battered women's shelter can be dangerous too. Would you take one of them into your home taking the chances that her violent husband could find out where she is? How about trying to evangelize to gang members on the street amidts drugs and prostitution? Danger isn't just in 3rd world countries. If Paul Washer Jr. decides to work with those in this country, he could very well be in just as much danger as anywhere else in the world. Either way it's following in the footsteps of Christ. If the Father can be pleased, or proud, of His Son why can't we also be pleased with our children if they take upon themselves the work of the Lord?

Matthew 3


16After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
17and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

threebigrocks
Apr 24th 2008, 08:33 PM
Before I jump to conclusions… Just which part of this passage does it relate to what I am discussing?


1 Timothy 4:12 .

danield
Apr 24th 2008, 09:00 PM
How is any of this different than someone's child graduating from a medical residency and being proud of them?

I am going to take a break from this thread and pray that I have the patient to show you the difference. I have explained it in every way I have thought of, and even directly quoting scripture giving us direct instruction to avoid problems the best way we can during our missions. I can only assume death would be part of that directive.


12 Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe.

Please excuse me for mentioning PW as being young. Sometimes people make excuses for others when they know they are wrong, and being young or inexperienced is a way to show kindness for a short coming of another.


All I can say is God bless! :giveup::giveup::giveup: