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stillforgiven
Apr 23rd 2008, 01:06 AM
If this has been answered somewhere else, please just give me the link. I've tried to search for it, and don't come up with anything.

The verse says, in the KJV, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

I heard a couple of end times teachers (on TV) say that the word we see in the English as "falling away", "rebellion", etc was incorrectly translated. They said the Greek word actually means "depart". These guys are pre-trib believers, so I can see why they would want to have it read this way, but I just want to know the facts. I know there are several people on the board who have the Greek words and their meanings. Can you help me out here?

diffangle
Apr 23rd 2008, 01:49 AM
The Greek word used in that verse is apostasia (Strong's G646) meaning...

1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

AV (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G646&t=kjv#) to forsake + 575 1, falling away (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria= falling away*+G646) 1

Here's the Blue Letter Bible link...

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G646&t=kjv

stillforgiven
Apr 23rd 2008, 01:53 AM
Thanks. :) I've heard them misquote the Bible before in something else, so while I'm saddened that they would go this far to make the Bible fit their views, I'm not surprised.

diffangle
Apr 23rd 2008, 01:56 AM
Thanks. :) I've heard them misquote the Bible before in something else, so while I'm saddened that they would go this far to make the Bible fit their views, I'm not surprised.
Yeah it's sad how they mislead many. :(

Frances
Apr 23rd 2008, 05:19 PM
The verse says, in the KJV, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

[FONT=Verdana]I heard a couple of end times teachers (on TV) say that the word we see in the English as "falling away", "rebellion", etc was incorrectly translated. They said the Greek word actually means "depart".

I suggest those who 'fall away' from Grace do 'depart' - from the Lord . . . .

Mograce2U
Apr 23rd 2008, 05:37 PM
I suggest those who 'fall away' from Grace do 'depart' - from the Lord . . . .
(Jer 17:13 KJV) O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.

646. apostasia, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; fem. of the same as G647; defection from truth (prop. the state) ["apostasy"]:--falling away, forsake.

647. apostasion, ap-os-tas'-ee-on; neut. of a (presumed) adj. from a der. of G868; prop. something separative, i.e. (spec.) divorce:--(writing of) divorcement.

868. aphistemi, af-is'-tay-mee; from G575 and G2476; to remove, i.e. (act.) instigate to revolt.; usually (reflex.) to desist, desert, etc.:--depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

2 Thes 2:3 is referring to when God would divorce apostate Israel; cutting off those who had forsaken Him by rejecting His Son. The man who was already working their rebellion by the power of Satan would not be known until this apostasy was brought to its fullness. Then the prophecy would be brought to pass at which time Jesus would destroy that man by the Spirit of His mouth (according to His prophetic word) - the man whose coming was by the power of Satan. This is not a 2nd coming of the Lord in the sense that we have been taught. It is the fulfillment of the destruction of Jerusalem and the end that came upon those apostates; who having rejected the truth of Jesus as their Messiah, would believe the lie instead.

IBWatching
Apr 23rd 2008, 06:02 PM
Thanks. :) I've heard them misquote the Bible before in something else, so while I'm saddened that they would go this far to make the Bible fit their views, I'm not surprised.

Please quit stereotyping pre-tribbers. I am one who does not see a departure of the Church in that verse. Not all of "us" do. And as far as making the Scriptures fit one's views, that is not the only camp with guilt.

stillforgiven
Apr 24th 2008, 03:10 AM
Please quit stereotyping pre-tribbers. I am one who does not see a departure of the Church in that verse. Not all of "us" do. And as far as making the Scriptures fit one's views, that is not the only camp with guilt.

Didn't mean to offend. Just stating what they said, though not directly quoted. They actually said this was supposed to have been translated to mean the Rapture because it means departure, and this proves a pre-tribulation Rapture. If you wish, I can tell you who (in PM), and you can get it on podcast to hear it for yourself. I don't want to post the people on the open board, because I don't want one of those arguments to start. I just wanted to find out if they were right, which it seems they aren't, because it would def change the way I would look at things.

quiet dove
Apr 24th 2008, 03:37 AM
Didn't mean to offend. Just stating what they said, though not directly quoted. They actually said this was supposed to have been translated to mean the Rapture because it means departure, and this proves a pre-tribulation Rapture. If you wish, I can tell you who (in PM), and you can get it on podcast to hear it for yourself. I don't want to post the people on the open board, because I don't want one of those arguments to start. I just wanted to find out if they were right, which it seems they aren't, because it would def change the way I would look at things.

I had always taken it to mean departure from the faith also and I to have heard it interpreted differently. But it being interpreted as departure from the faith, does not crush the pre trib rapture. However if it could be proven to be departure of the Church from the earth it would sure make things a lot less confusing.:lol:

stillforgiven
Apr 24th 2008, 03:50 AM
However if it could be proven to be departure of the Church from the earth it would sure make things a lot less confusing.:lol:

For REAL!! :D But then we what would we have to argue about on this forum? :lol:

tHbaGLORY
Apr 24th 2008, 04:13 AM
"Falling Away" does not mean depart--I am pretrib as well and I don't think this verse speaks of the rapture.

However "Falling Away" is not a reference to true Christians abandoning the faith either--that is not possible for those who truly know Christ and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:35-39

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

ross3421
Apr 24th 2008, 12:04 PM
The falling away are those which are warned to overcome of the churches when trials hits. The church as God points out in Rev is filled with pretenders known however to himself. When this trial which will hit the whole world (mark of the beast) they will not overcome and fall and accept the mark.

John146
Apr 24th 2008, 08:27 PM
Thanks. :) I've heard them misquote the Bible before in something else, so while I'm saddened that they would go this far to make the Bible fit their views, I'm not surprised.

It's very dishonest and not a level any Christian should stoop to just to defend a doctrine.

stillforgiven
Apr 25th 2008, 02:46 PM
It's very dishonest and not a level any Christian should stoop to just to defend a doctrine.

And puzzling. I've had my views (doctrine) changed on many things since I started studying the Word for myself and chatting with others who also study it. It's normal, isn't it?

2 Peter 2:20
Apr 26th 2008, 02:20 AM
So what is the "falling away" from? "Falling away" from what?

stillforgiven
Apr 26th 2008, 02:23 AM
I take it to mean the Truth of God. Other translations call it rebellion or even the Great Rebellion.

wpm
Apr 26th 2008, 02:26 AM
So what is the "falling away" from? "Falling away" from what?

It is a falling away from known truth. It is blatant rebellion against the Word of God. It does not suggest losing one's salvation, but rather a movement away from God's infallible precepts.

Paul

coolhandluke
Apr 26th 2008, 02:31 AM
I heard a couple of end times teachers (on TV) say that the word we see in the English as "falling away", "rebellion", etc was incorrectly translated. They said the Greek word actually means "depart". These guys are pre-trib believers, so I can see why they would want to have it read this way, but I just want to know the facts. I know there are several people on the board who have the Greek words and their meanings. Can you help me out here?

here is the TV End Times teachers saying the very thing you are talking about it is towards the end of the segment but they do talk about it. Just start the clip at 14:25 and he starts talking about it right away.

http://66.155.114.80/video/Dsl/5904-B.wmv

threebigrocks
Apr 26th 2008, 02:35 AM
It is a falling away from known truth. It is blatant rebellion against the Word of God. It does not suggest losing one's salvation, but rather a movement away from God's infallible precepts.

Paul

Which would be a movement away from faith. If we move away from God, then that doesn't leave one in a very good place. If we aren't in the truth - then where are we?

stillforgiven
Apr 26th 2008, 02:42 AM
here is the TV End Times teachers saying the very thing you are talking about it is towards the end of the segment but they do talk about it. Just start the clip at 14:25 and he starts talking about it right away.

http://66.155.114.80/video/Dsl/5904-B.wmv


I couldn't get it to load, but I suspect it's the same as what I saw that prompted me to start this thread.

coolhandluke
Apr 26th 2008, 02:49 AM
prophecyinthenews.com and go down to
Rapturitis
"New - Affliction or Comfort? - New

stillforgiven
Apr 26th 2008, 02:51 AM
Yeah, that's the one. It comes on a station here on Friday nights, and that was the one on last week.

2 Peter 2:20
Apr 26th 2008, 11:39 AM
I take it to mean the Truth of God. Other translations call it rebellion or even the Great Rebellion.

Sinners are already in rebellion. So who is it exactly that falls away?


It is a falling away from known truth. It is blatant rebellion against the Word of God. It does not suggest losing one's salvation, but rather a movement away from God's infallible precepts.

Paul

Only those who are living in the truth can fall from the truth. As per scripture, sinners do not understand the things of God so how can they fall away from the truth.


Which would be a movement away from faith. If we move away from God, then that doesn't leave one in a very good place. If we aren't in the truth - then where are we?

True 3BR...The whole essence of the Greek here is a total renouncing of the Christian faith by a Christian.

Apostasy is generally defined as the determined, willful rejection of Christ and His teachings by a Christian believer (Heb. 10:26-29; John 15:22). This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance.
Hayford, J. W., & Thomas Nelson Publishers. 1995. Hayford's Bible handbook.

apostasy (Gk. (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1617496#_ftn1), apostasia, falling away) Total renunciation of the Christian faith by a baptized person or a desertion by a professed religious who had taken perpetual vows.
Kurian, G. T. 2001. Nelson's new Christian dictionary : The authoritative resource on the Christian world.

stillforgiven
Apr 26th 2008, 10:51 PM
Sinners are already in rebellion. So who is it exactly that falls away?

*sigh* I was hoping to avoid starting the OSAS vs. NOSAS argument, because it's a pointless argument. I believe it means followers of Christ. I do believe it is possible for a Christian, for whatever reason, to go back to their life of sin and rebel against God. I've seen it happen. I believe this scripture speaks of a time when this will happen on a huge scale in the church.

That being said, I will admit to being very new to this part of Scripture study, and I realize my views could be wrong. I've changed my views on many things in the past year. I'll keep studying, listening to others, most of all listening to God.

2 Peter 2:20
Apr 27th 2008, 01:32 AM
*sigh* I was hoping to avoid starting the OSAS vs. NOSAS argument, because it's a pointless argument. I believe it means followers of Christ. I do believe it is possible for a Christian, for whatever reason, to go back to their life of sin and rebel against God. I've seen it happen. I believe this scripture speaks of a time when this will happen on a huge scale in the church.

That being said, I will admit to being very new to this part of Scripture study, and I realize my views could be wrong. I've changed my views on many things in the past year. I'll keep studying, listening to others, most of all listening to God.

Although I am going through OSAS/NOSAS withdrawls...its been 2 days:lol:

It was not my intention to sidetrack this thread but to even start to understand this passage we have to know who is falling away and from where they are falling. Without that I don't see how it will be understood. That is the only thing I was trying to point out.

By the way we are in agreement.;)

ShirleyFord
Apr 27th 2008, 02:35 AM
Paul writes in his 2nd letter to the local Church in Thessalonica - 2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

As he continued his letter to them, he explained to them who would be the ones falling away and what would cause them to fall away.

1. They have never been saved - v. 10b. "they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

2. Instead of loving the truth, the truth that would save them, they turned their backs on it. They would be deceived into believing that the gospel the man of sin was preaching was the only truth of God - vs 9 and 10a. " Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish."



We find the 2nd beast in Rev 13 deceiving the unsaved in the same way.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

He was able to deceive those to worship the image of the beast whose name were not written in the Lamb's book of life just as the 1st beast had.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Those whose names were written in the book of life were the only ones in Revelation 13 who didn't worship the devil, the 1st beast, the 2nd beaast or the image of the 1st beast.


Shirley

2 Peter 2:20
Apr 27th 2008, 04:16 PM
Paul writes in his 2nd letter to the local Church in Thessalonica - 2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

As he continued his letter to them, he explained to them who would be the ones falling away and what would cause them to fall away.

1. They have never been saved - v. 10b. "they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

2. Instead of loving the truth, the truth that would save them, they turned their backs on it. They would be deceived into believing that the gospel the man of sin was preaching was the only truth of God - vs 9 and 10a. " Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish."



We find the 2nd beast in Rev 13 deceiving the unsaved in the same way.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

He was able to deceive those to worship the image of the beast whose name were not written in the Lamb's book of life just as the 1st beast had.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Those whose names were written in the book of life were the only ones in Revelation 13 who didn't worship the devil, the 1st beast, the 2nd beaast or the image of the 1st beast.


Shirley

I think we must understand how the word is used and the Greek word for falling away was used only one other time in scripture and it was translated as "forsake".

21 but they have been informed about you (Paul) that you (Paul) teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

Paul's teachings to the Jews were to forsake the ways of Moses and to follow something that was very different. Now the Jews were already actively submerged in the Law and Paul is telling them to "apostasia" from this teaching completely.

The Jews had to be actively in the Law of Moses to forsake that Law didn't they?

So I am not sure that the "they" in verse 10 refers to the falling away crowd.

ShirleyFord
Apr 28th 2008, 07:25 PM
I think we must understand how the word is used and the Greek word for falling away was used only one other time in scripture and it was translated as "forsake".

21 but they have been informed about you (Paul) that you (Paul) teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

Paul's teachings to the Jews were to forsake the ways of Moses and to follow something that was very different. Now the Jews were already actively submerged in the Law and Paul is telling them to "apostasia" from this teaching completely.

The Jews had to be actively in the Law of Moses to forsake that Law didn't they?

So I am not sure that the "they" in verse 10 refers to the falling away crowd.

First, James in Acts 21 is the one who spoke in the Scripture you quoted concerning what the Jews were saying about Paul.

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

This was Paul speaking in his own defense against the charges brought against him by those Jewish leaders who rejected Christ and His gospel and His Church:

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Acts 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.


And the last time we see Paul, he is in prison in Rome preaching to unsaved Jews.

What did he preach?

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.


If these are not the people of the "falling away" in 2 Thess 2, then who are they?


The "falling away" occurs when the man of sin is revealed:

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

How is the man of sin revealed?

John tells us that the spirit of antichrist was already present in the world in his day in the 1st century. And seems to imply that it will also come in the future.

1 Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I believe that antichrist will be revealed in those who are deceived by the spirit of antichrist. The man of sin appears to be the false prophet in Revelation, the 2nd beast of Rev 13 where all religions are united into one global religion, pretty much what I have seen developing since the early 1970s in the new age movement except true biblical Christianity which will be outlawed globally.

We see with both the man of sin and the false prophet their pushing their brand of religion from the time they come on the scene and are revealed as those who have the real deal from God, the one and only true religion.

Who is it who are convinced by the false prophet in Rev 13? We don't find even one saint, whose names were written in the Lamb's book of life, "falling away" being deceived by any of the great signs and miracles. It seems that they were not impressed with him even for one second.

As we find 2 groups of people in Rev 13, we find 2 groups of people in 2 Thess 2:

1. the lost (2 Thess 2:10-12)

2. the saved (2 Thess 2:13-14)



Shirley

puregospeltruth
Apr 30th 2008, 05:19 PM
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" 2 Thes 2:3

'A falling away" is literally the greek word for "apostasy".

ἀποστασία
apostasia
Thayer Definition:
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

I believe it definately refers to the last days, since that is the context of the verse and it's clear implication.

It does not refer to people who were truly saved by faith in Jesus, born again, sealed with the Holy Spirit, and kept by the power of God, yet simply "chose" to depart and walk away from Christ. Apostates were never children of God any more than Esau was. Here's what it refers to: It refers to those who have had great, great light and in rebellion, willfully rejected that light until God hands them over to blindness, making it impossible to repent.

Many of the Pharisees of Jesus' time were apostates. So was Judas Iscariot.

The 'falling away' or 'aposasy' of 2 Thes. 2:3 must therefore be an apostasy of the professing church in the time of the end, where even though they claim to believe in the true God (as did the pharisees), yet they defect from the true faith of the New Testament.


In Christ - Josef
www.puregospeltruth.com (http://www.puregospeltruth.com)

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 14th 2011, 06:39 PM
Re: Questions regarding 2 Thessalonians 2

1.there is a gathering of tares then wheat.
2. these two different gatherings take place at the second advent
3.the angels who come with Christ are the harvesters
4.if someone believes in a rapture they having the timing wrong and are obviously referring to Christ as mistaken and the word mistaken
5 a false timing or mistiming of the events MAY cause you to mistake antiChrist as true Christ
6 to believe the antiChrist is true Christ is taking the mark of belief "in" your forehead/mind
7 to do the work of antiChrist= his mark in your hand
8 with child giving suck =lose of spiritual virginity and pregnant with spiritual child of satan as eve became in the garden

here's a few verses to prove this oil of truth:

Matthew 24

1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.

26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.





the stones are still there in Jerusalem if you notice the wailing wall, it's still there and stone is upon stone still, if people try to say little titus destroyed it all in 70ad, How come the wall is still there? was Christ mistaken when He said NO stone left upon another? God Forbid. funny the words He chose.



now that should settle the "basic when" (and yes no man knows the day or hour ,it didn't say anything about year and month) or signs of His return. the temple is still partly there and the wailing wall so obviously nobody with common sense would call Jesus a liar, no way!


now which trump does Christ return on? there are 7 in the book of revelations and true Christ doesn't return till the 19th chapter, there's a whole lot of tribulation to go through cause again Christ said He comes after the rib.


Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other


1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed (notice it says the 7th last trump in line with what Christ says and in line with the book of revelation ...this is the second coming not a secret 1/2 coming that Christ NEVER told us about cause He said He told us ALL things even about all things and if it was for us to know or not




1 thes 4 is about the saved dead and the second advent... NOT some secret rapture



13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.


them that sleep are the dead as Christ referred to the little girl sleeping. right?

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

we HAVE to believe Christ rose from the dead to be a Christian right? and it says those who are saved dead or sleeping with Christ He will bring them with HIM. flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom can it? and when Christ returns it will be the end of the world cause the elements (physical matter) will melt and we'll be changed in the twinkling of an eye because our skins fall off us and the birds eats the flesh of man.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

how can we prevent them, they are already there right? they dead in Christ rise first when ..when they die in their own time. we saved are NOT in a hole in the ground as the unsaved are we? NO see the story of lazarus and the rich man.


16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


now these verses should be easily understood.. the trump is the last trump the 7th (666 comes before 777 as Christ said so right?) the dead shall rise first when they die cause He will bring them back right?

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words





Here's more proof that Christ comes after the antiChrist comes disguised as Christ, but we know a false rapture or false Christ will not fool us because HE said the elements will melt when True Christ returns.



2 Thessalonians 2

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

don't believe in secrets the LORD never told us about, inserted 1/2 returns for just a select few? didn't Christ die for all and returns like lightning...where's the secret in that? none because He said He told us all things right?


4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


this is the antiChrist disguised as Christ and those who believe the false Christ will be harvested out of season, with the tares, their flight will be out of season, lose their spiritual virginity, pregnant and giving suck to a spiritual baby of satan when Christ returns. paul says he wants to present us a spiritual virgins unlike eve who was wholly seduced by satan in the garden. the father of cain as Christ said so.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


this is refers to michael the archangel casting satan out of heaven. some say this is the Holy Spirit but it's michael's job to confront satan and his demons (jude, etc) some also try to say the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the world, is not the Holy Spirit GOD? who can take God out anywhere? and isn't it impossible for GOD to not be everywhere seeing that HE is omnipresent?

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

the brightness of his coming,the heavens and earth on fire, the elements melt



9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


AFTER satan and his great wonders to make his children believe him to be Christ and the false Christians fall away



10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

hear this truth and put it as oil in your lamp

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


satan disguised as antiChrist who will be in the world very soon.

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.


elements melt:

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

# 2 Peter 3:12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


the last trump
REV 19:11

Matthew 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

I hope this helps you and you hear HIS voice :thumbsup:

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 15th 2011, 07:49 PM
2 Peter, I agree with you . this once saved always saved is the same deception and leading away satan told eve in the garden... "you will not surely die " why would Christ warn us Paul warn us etc. if someone thinks they are saved and believe antiChrist's deception they have received the mark of belief , to fall away, the bad branch is cut away, tares are taken out of season,

there are MANY verses against falling away,backsliding,holding on to faith, not falling away vs. a few used to say osos

Matt 24:23-30 Jeremiah 23:19-32 were ALL changed and separated chaff from wheat when true Christ rides in True and Just (in Rev 19:11-16) at the last trump (1 Cor 15:51-55, ALL not a few), after the false rider
Rev 6:2-8, the unshaken fruits remain (Heb 12:22-29) why would luke ask shall HE find faith when HE returns?Luke 18:7-8

Christ warns us what happens if we are deceived Luke 17:34-37 blessed are the watchers Luke 12:36-38
2 Cor 11:2 Paul warns us not to be seduced by the false husband and not to lose spiritual virginity (as the 5 in revelations)
many of the denominations make void the words of God: Rev 22:16-21

Ezek 18:21-26 good gone bad, the living becoming dead,
Hosea 4:5-19,Amos 8:11-12,Luke 11:9-10,Rev 13:11-18 don't be deceived
Romans 11:7-11 some are blind to the truth The unforgivable sin: Matt 12:30-32

Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity


IF we sin WE MUST REPENT to renew ourselves or else Heb 6:4-6
I Jn 5:16-17 Malachi 4:1

John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

abide in Christ or else John 15:4-6
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye

Romans 11:21
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee
1 Corinthians 15:30 Matthew 6:24 Luke 16:13 1 Thessalonians 5:21 fight the fight , not osas then get lazy 1 Timothy 6:12 ,

don't become shipwrecked
I Tim I 18This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;

19Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

Genesis 45:24, Proverbs 4:16,Jeremiah 8:4,Luke 8:13,2 Thessalonians 2:3,Hebrews 6:6,James 1:11,1 Peter 1:24,2 Peter 3:17,2 Timothy 1:13,Titus 1:9,Hebrews 3:6,Hebrews 3:14,Hebrews 4:14,Hebrews 10:23,Revelation 2:13,Revelation 2:25,Revelation 3:3,Revelation 3:11,Jeremiah 2:19,Jeremiah 3:22,Jeremiah 5:6,Jeremiah 8:5,Jeremiah 14:7,Jeremiah 31:22,
Proverbs 14:14,