PDA

View Full Version : Till The Heavens Be No More!!!!! (moved from ETC to WR because of SoulSleep doctrine)



Firstfruits
Apr 24th 2008, 11:52 AM
Job's outlook on Death, The Grave, The Resurrection and end of the world.

Death

Job 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

The Grave

Job 10:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!
19 I should have been as though I had not been; I should have been carried from the womb to the grave.
20 Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little,
21 Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
22 A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.

The Resurrection

Job 19:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Regarding being resurrected when the Heavens are no more, Jesus is exempt as when he died his body, soul/spirit was only in the grave for three days.

Mt 12:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

His soul was only in the grave until he was resurrected at the third day.

Acts 2:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

The message of death, the grave, the resurrection is the same today as it was then.

When Jesus gave up the ghost he went to the grave, then he was resurrected, and then he ascended to Heaven.

The oder has not changed.

Alyssa S
Apr 25th 2008, 04:55 AM
Job's outlook on Death, The Grave, The Resurrection and end of the world.

Death

Job 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

The Grave

Job 10:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!
19 I should have been as though I had not been; I should have been carried from the womb to the grave.
20 Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little,
21 Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
22 A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.

The Resurrection

Job 19:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Regarding being resurrected when the Heavens are no more, Jesus is exempt as when he died his body, soul/spirit was only in the grave for three days.

Mt 12:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

His soul was only in the grave until he was resurrected at the third day.

Acts 2:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

The message of death, the grave, the resurrection is the same today as it was then.

When Jesus gave up the ghost he went to the grave, then he was resurrected, and then he ascended to Heaven.

The oder has not changed.

FirstFruits....

I LOVE how you always use Scripture to show what you believe. What I mean is, oftentimes it is so easy for us to want to (argue) out what WE "believe" by logic, opinion or our own flesh. It is rare to see someone allow the Scriptures alone speak for themselves. It's very tempting to "help out" God and put in "our two cents" when God's Word is enough. I'm not saying that we shouldn't discuss our opinions. I am just saying that it is so encouraging to see someone LET the Scriptures speak. I can learn a lot by your example! :)

I tried to send you a PM, but it wouldn't let me.... so there it is...for the world to see. ;)

Now... I would like to know your (opinion)! :lol:

Jesus is exempt as when he died his body, soul/spirit was only in the grave for three days.

I agree with everything that you posted... as it is clearly Scriptural... except that I am curious about your comment on Jesus's spirit. In Luke, Jesus said; "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." Luke 23:46

Now, I believe that the soul and the spirit have similarities, but I do believe they are still different. I believe the soul is the mind, will and emotions. And I believe the spirit is the literal BREATH of life. I know there will be some that will say that they are the same thing, but I think Scripture reveals otherwise.

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow."

"Joints and marrow" are very intimately involved, but they are not the same thing... just as soul and spirit in this verse.

1 Thess 5:23 "May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

SPIRIT
pneuma NT:4151 primarily denotes "the wind" (akin to pneo, "to breathe, blow"); also "breath"; then, especially "the spirit," which, like the wind, is invisible, immaterial and powerful.

We see that the Lord's PNEUMA (breath) is used in this, one of many verses, that calls the BREATH "PNEUMA".

2 Thess 2:8
"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath (PNEUMA) of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."

AND....
Luke 23:46: "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit. (PNEUMA)"

AND...
Acts 7:59: "While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit (PNEUMA).

If Jesus said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit," then I would assume that when Jesus "breathed his last," the BREATH of life returned to the Father and Jesus' body and soul went to the grave. Because Jesus DID say that he had not yet ascended to the Father AFTER he rose from the dead. (John 20:17) Can we truly say that "breath" is part of our makeup? The breath is what God breathes into us that makes us live and the oxygen (breath of life) is what sustains us. So to me, it would make sense when Jesus committed his "spirit," he was simply giving back his "breath" to the Father... since we KNOW that he did not ascend for 3 more days.

What says you??

Firstfruits
Apr 25th 2008, 09:00 AM
FirstFruits....

I LOVE how you always use Scripture to show what you believe. What I mean is, oftentimes it is so easy for us to want to (argue) out what WE "believe" by logic, opinion or our own flesh. It is rare to see someone allow the Scriptures alone speak for themselves. It's very tempting to "help out" God and put in "our two cents" when God's Word is enough. I'm not saying that we shouldn't discuss our opinions. I am just saying that it is so encouraging to see someone LET the Scriptures speak. I can learn a lot by your example! :)

I tried to send you a PM, but it wouldn't let me.... so there it is...for the world to see. ;)

Now... I would like to know your (opinion)! :lol:


I agree with everything that you posted... as it is clearly Scriptural... except that I am curious about your comment on Jesus's spirit. In Luke, Jesus said; "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." Luke 23:46

Now, I believe that the soul and the spirit have similarities, but I do believe they are still different. I believe the soul is the mind, will and emotions. And I believe the spirit is the literal BREATH of life. I know there will be some that will say that they are the same thing, but I think Scripture reveals otherwise.

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow."

"Joints and marrow" are very intimately involved, but they are not the same thing... just as soul and spirit in this verse.

1 Thess 5:23 "May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

SPIRIT
pneuma NT:4151 primarily denotes "the wind" (akin to pneo, "to breathe, blow"); also "breath"; then, especially "the spirit," which, like the wind, is invisible, immaterial and powerful.

We see that the Lord's PNEUMA (breath) is used in this, one of many verses, that calls the BREATH "PNEUMA".

2 Thess 2:8
"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath (PNEUMA) of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."

AND....
Luke 23:46: "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit. (PNEUMA)"

AND...
Acts 7:59: "While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit (PNEUMA).

If Jesus said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit," then I would assume that when Jesus "breathed his last," the BREATH of life returned to the Father and Jesus' body and soul went to the grave. Because Jesus DID say that he had not yet ascended to the Father AFTER he rose from the dead. (John 20:17) Can we truly say that "breath" is part of our makeup? The breath is what God breathes into us that makes us live and the oxygen (breath of life) is what sustains us. So to me, it would make sense when Jesus committed his "spirit," he was simply giving back his "breath" to the Father... since we KNOW that he did not ascend for 3 more days.

What says you??

First let me say thank you for your encouragement.

Now to answer your question.

According to the following Jesus did not ascend to heaven until after his resurrection, then he ascended

Jn 20:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

His soul was not left in hell; Acts 2:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

The word "SOUL" has a few meanings, one is Spirit another is the ghost another is the breath or life.

So Jesus gave up the ghost, and his soul/spirit when to hell untill his resurrection, then his ascension.

I hope this explains my understanding of what is written. There are other scriptures if you need them.

Firstfruits

Alyssa S
Apr 25th 2008, 02:00 PM
First let me say thank you for your encouragement.

Now to answer your question.

According to the following Jesus did not ascend to heaven until after his resurrection, then his ascen

Jn 20:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

His soul was not left in hell; Acts 2:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

The word "SOUL" has a few meanings, one is Spirit another is the ghost another is the breath or life.

So Jesus gave up the ghost, and his soul/spirit when to hell untill his resurrection, then his ascension.

I hope this explains my understanding of what is written. There are other scriptures if you need them.

Firstfruits

You are quite welcome for the encouragement!

If Jesus' spirit is the same exact thing as his soul, then how do we explain what Jesus said? "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit. When he said this, he BREATHED his last. (gave up the ghost)" Luke 23:46

The Greek word for BREATHED or "gave up the ghost" is "EK-PNEO." And it means to EXPIRE. Part of that Greek word is "PNEO" which means "to breathe."

John 10:15: "I lay down my LIFE (SOUL-"PSUCHE") for my sheep."
It would appear here that the (soul-life) goes DOWN to the grave... and that the (spirit-breath) goes UP to the Father. "Father, into your hands I commit my (spirit"-breath).

I realize that Strongs gives "breath" as the first definition for "Psuche" (SOUL). But I think this is an improper translation/definition of that word. Doesn't "Psuche" mean that a Soul is a "BREATHING CREATURE" and not "BREATH-WIND-CURRENT OF AIR" which is clearly the definition of "spirit-pneuma"?

Genesis 2:7 "The Lord God formed the MAN from the dust of the ground and BREATHED into his nostrils the BREATH of life, and the man became a living SOUL."

MAN + BREATH OF LIFE =A LIVING SOUL.

The Hebrew word for SOUL is "NEPHESH" and it means "A BREATHING CREATURE."

OT:5315 <HEBREW> nephesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Alyssa S
Apr 25th 2008, 02:21 PM
Also...

Ezek 37:4-10:
4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make BREATH enter you, and you will come to LIFE. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put BREATH in you, and you will come to LIFE. Then you will know that I am the LORD.'"

The word BREATH in the Old Testament is "RUWACH" and it is also the SPIRIT.

OT:7307 <HEBREW> ruwach (roo'-akh); from OT:7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being


7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no BREATH in them.

9 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and BREATHE into these slain, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.'" (MAN + BREATH OF LIFE = LIVING SOUL)

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet — a vast army.
NIV

matthew94
Apr 25th 2008, 02:57 PM
This subject can get tricky b/c soul is used in 2 main ways in Scripture. In the OT, 'soul' primarily means a breathing being. But language evolves and by the NT times the word 'soul' was also used in a way basically synonymous with 'spirit.' So it is not the case that we can simply look at 1 verse and define soul and then look at another verse and read that same definition into its usage of soul. We must take each verse and attempt to understand it by context and comparison with the rest of Scripture.

Personally, I prefer to allow soul to mean 'breathing being' in my mind, so when it is used otherwise, I just think of it as a synonym for spirit. I believe that the few verses in the NT that make it sound like the soul and spirit are 2 different immaterial parts of man are mis-interpreted. In some of those verses it is simply a case of the author piling up synonyms for affect. In other cases we've just mishandled the verse. In Hebrews 4:12, for instance, we force the author to be saying that soul and spirit can be divided from each other and thus are distinguishable. But why couldn't he simply be saying that God's Word is able to divide soul AND spirit, not soul FROM spirit. In other words, God is saying to us, in that verse, that He's able to penetrate that immaterial aspect of us right to the core and the verse simply describes this power with 2 words that basically mean the same thing. I think this interpretation fits better with the rest of the verse. Joints and marrow are not connected (marrow is inside of bone). It's not that the joints get separated FROM the marrow, it's that God's Word has the power to separate joints just like God's Word has the power to separate marrow. Both are under the skin and unseen. They are non-surface stuff. In the same way, as the end of the verse declares, God is able to know our immaterial side. He is able to penetrate our very thoughts.

John146
Apr 25th 2008, 03:19 PM
First let me say thank you for your encouragement.

Now to answer your question.

According to the following Jesus did not ascend to heaven until after his resurrection, then his ascen

Jn 20:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

His soul was not left in hell; Acts 2:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

The word "SOUL" has a few meanings, one is Spirit another is the ghost another is the breath or life.

So Jesus gave up the ghost, and his soul/spirit when to hell untill his resurrection, then his ascension.

I hope this explains my understanding of what is written. There are other scriptures if you need them.

Firstfruits

It doesn't say Jesus gave up his soul/spirit to hell. It says He gave it up to the Father. Just like Stephen gave up his spirit to Jesus.

59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. - Acts 7:59-60

Notice that Stephen asked Jesus to receive his spirit. Where was Jesus? In heaven (Acts 7:56). That means Stephen's spirit went to heaven with Jesus.

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight )
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. - 2 Corinthians 5:6-8

In this passage, Paul implies that when one is still alive physically, we are apart from the Lord (because He is in heaven and we are on earth). He also implied that to be absent from the body or physically dead is to be present with the Lord (spiritually in heaven).

Firstfruits
Apr 25th 2008, 03:21 PM
You are quite welcome for the encouragement!

If Jesus' spirit is the same exact thing as his soul, then how do we explain what Jesus said? "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit. When he said this, he BREATHED his last. (gave up the ghost)" Luke 23:46

The Greek word for BREATHED or "gave up the ghost" is "EK-PNEO." And it means to EXPIRE. Part of that Greek word is "PNEO" which means "to breathe."

John 10:15: "I lay down my LIFE (SOUL-"PSUCHE") for my sheep."
It would appear here that the (soul-life) goes DOWN to the grave... and that the (spirit-breath) goes UP to the Father. "Father, into your hands I commit my (spirit"-breath).

I realize that Strongs gives "breath" as the first definition for "Psuche" (SOUL). But I think this is an improper translation/definition of that word. Doesn't "Psuche" mean that a Soul is a "BREATHING CREATURE" and not "BREATH-WIND-CURRENT OF AIR" which is clearly the definition of "spirit-pneuma"?

Genesis 2:7 "The Lord God formed the MAN from the dust of the ground and BREATHED into his nostrils the BREATH of life, and the man became a living SOUL."

MAN + BREATH OF LIFE =A LIVING SOUL.

The Hebrew word for SOUL is "NEPHESH" and it means "A BREATHING CREATURE."

OT:5315 <HEBREW> nephesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

If Jesus did not ascend to the Father/heaven until after his resurection how would he have ascended when he gave up the ghost/died?

Did Jesus ascend to heaven and then reutrn to earth if so why did he say in the following that he had not yet ascened?

Jn 20:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Mk 16:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Lk 24:51 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=51) And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

Acts 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Again I ask did he ascend and return, and then ascend again even thogh he said he had not?

Firstfruits
Apr 25th 2008, 03:31 PM
It doesn't say Jesus gave up his soul/spirit to hell. It says He gave it up to the Father. Just like Stephen gave up his spirit to Jesus.

59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. - Acts 7:59-60

Notice that Stephen asked Jesus to receive his spirit. Where was Jesus? In heaven (Acts 7:56). That means Stephen's spirit went to heaven with Jesus.

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight )
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. - 2 Corinthians 5:6-8

In this passage, Paul implies that when one is still alive physically, we are apart from the Lord (because He is in heaven and we are on earth). He also implied that to be absent from the body or physically dead is to be present with the Lord (spiritually in heaven).

With regards to the following are his body and soul not in hell/ the grave?

Acts 2:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Jesus said he had not ascended to heaven and he did not until he was resurrected from the dead.

Jn 20:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

When do you beleive he ascended to the Father/Heaven, regarding what he said to Mary?

John146
Apr 25th 2008, 03:41 PM
If Jesus did not ascend to the Father/heaven until after his resurection how would he have ascended when he gave up the ghost/died?

Did Jesus ascend to heaven and then reutrn to earth if so why did he say in the following that he had not yet ascened?

Jn 20:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Mk 16:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Lk 24:51 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=51) And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

Acts 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Again I ask did he ascend and return, and then ascend again even thogh he said he had not?

You're not differentiating between ascending spiritually and ascending physically. He was only saying He had not yet ascended physically. The following passage speaks of His spiritual ascension:

50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. - Matthew 27:50-53

Notice that it says many saints physically arose from the grave right after Jesus died and yielded up His spirit. It says they came out of the graves "after His resurrection". Yet, He was not going to be physically resurrected for another 3 days. So, what else could this mean except that they arose after He spiritually arose up to heaven? The Greek word used for "resurrection" in Matthew 27:53 is egersis (Strong's G1454). It can mean "a rising up". It does not have to mean a resurrection from the dead. How could it mean that? The "resurrection" spoken of in that verse happened right after He physically died. His spirit didn't die, so it couldn't be resurrected from the dead.

Let me put it this way. He gave up His spirit to the Father in heaven when He died. Immediately following that is when many bodies of the saints were resurrected. It says this happened AFTER His resurrection. Well, we know it didn't happen after His physical resurrection or after He ascended bodily to heaven. So, it had to have happened after He ascended spiritually to heaven.

John146
Apr 25th 2008, 03:44 PM
With regards to the following are his body and soul not in hell/ the grave?

Acts 2:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Jesus said he had not ascended to heaven and he did not until he was resurrected from the dead.

Jn 20:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

When do you beleive he ascended to the Father/Heaven, regarding what he said to Mary?

You replied to my post with more questions rather than responding directly to what I said. What do you think it means when it says Jesus gave up His ghost or spirit to the Father? What do you think it means when Stephen asked Jesus to receive his spirit?

Firstfruits
Apr 25th 2008, 03:52 PM
You're not differentiating between ascending spiritually and ascending physically. He was only saying He had not yet ascended physically. The following passage speaks of His spiritual ascension:

50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. - Matthew 27:50-53

Notice that it says many saints physically arose from the grave right after Jesus died and yielded up His spirit. It says they came out of the graves "after His resurrection". Yet, He was not going to be physically resurrected for another 3 days. So, what else could this mean except that they arose after He spiritually arose up to heaven? The Greek word used for "resurrection" in Matthew 27:53 is egersis (Strong's G1454). It can mean "a rising up". It does not have to mean a resurrection from the dead. How could it mean that? The "resurrection" spoken of in that verse happened right after He physically died. His spirit didn't die, so it couldn't be resurrected from the dead.

Let me put it this way. He gave up His spirit to the Father in heaven when He died. Immediately following that is when many bodies of the saints were resurrected. It says this happened AFTER His resurrection. Well, we know it didn't happen after His physical resurrection or after He ascended bodily to heaven. So, it had to have happened after He ascended spiritually to heaven.

Jesus said to Mary that he had not ascended back to heaven, now if he had ascended why did he say that he had not?

Firstfruits
Apr 25th 2008, 04:03 PM
You replied to my post with more questions rather than responding directly to what I said. What do you think it means when it says Jesus gave up His ghost or spirit to the Father? What do you think it means when Stephen asked Jesus to receive his spirit?

When Jesus gave up the ghost it means that he died.

Job 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

Job 10:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!

Job 13:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost.

Job 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

With the understanding that the soul and the spirit are one, then for Stephen or Jesus knowing the scriptures knew where they would go when they died but they were assured to be with the Father at the appointed time.

21 Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
22 A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.

Job 19:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Sorry for not answering before.

Alyssa S
Apr 25th 2008, 04:10 PM
In Hebrews 4:12, for instance, we force the author to be saying that soul and spirit can be divided from each other and thus are distinguishable. But why couldn't he simply be saying that God's Word is able to divide soul AND spirit, not soul FROM spirit.


Hi Matthew94! :)

I can see what you are saying in regards to the soul and spirit being divided when just looking at those two words. But that wasn't the only example given and I think there was a reason for that. When someone receives a bone MARROW transplant, they are not receiving both the marrow AND the bone. The marrow is extracted from within the bone. I realize that marrow and joint are very intimately involved, but they are two completely different things that serve two completely different purposes. Yes, marrow is inside the BONE... but from what I understand, marrow does not exist IN the JOINT itself. So they do "connect." It's kind of like a Vessel and Blood. The two are very intimately connected, but still play different roles in the human body. Thus they CAN be divided. I'm not so sure that we are really "forcing" the author to be saying anything that he isn't. It seems pretty clear that the author was showing that two things that are very different, yet very intimately related, can be divided.

There is no life. ...if there is not BOTH joint and marrow.
There is no life....if there is not BOTH soul and spirit.
These two things work together to bring life...and so one is VERY important to the other. And I don't see how this would take anything away from the Sword of the Spirit, the Word of God. I think this verse is just another of many that has much depth to it's meaning. Why can't God be showing that his Word has the power to divide these things from the other, while at the same time giving us an anatomy lesson? I think it's very important that we not miss the fine details because there are so many mysteries to unfold and treasures to find if we keep ourselves open to them. :)



It's not that the joints get separated FROM the marrow, it's that God's Word has the power to separate joints just like God's Word has the power to separate marrow.


But the verse doesn't say that God is dividing joints from joints...or soul from soul. He is dividing/separating two completely different things that are very intimately related. "It penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow..."

If soul and spirit are the same exact thing, then how do we explain this verse?

1 Thess 5:23 "May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Alyssa S
Apr 25th 2008, 04:23 PM
If Jesus did not ascend to the Father/heaven until after his resurection how would he have ascended when he gave up the ghost/died?

Did Jesus ascend to heaven and then reutrn to earth if so why did he say in the following that he had not yet ascened?

Jn 20:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Mk 16:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Lk 24:51 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=51) And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

Acts 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Again I ask did he ascend and return, and then ascend again even thogh he said he had not?

I am with you!! I do not believe that Jesus went to HEAVEN when he died. I think it is very clear that Jesus was IN the grave awaiting his resurrection. The very important point I am trying to make is that the SPIRIT and SOUL are two different things. The spirit is simply the BREATH (AIR) that returned to the Father. This does not have to mean that Jesus ascended to Heaven. It just means that the BREATH that sustains life returned to the Father, while Jesus was in the grave.

No... he did not ascend to Heaven and then return. I, like you are trying to point out, feel that that belief is clearly un-biblical. But we cannot ignore the fact that Jesus said, "Father I commit my spirit unto you...and then he breathed is last." Is that a coincidence that SPIRIT means BREATH... and when Jesus said these words the BREATH of life departed him? He went to the grave to await his resurrection as his breath returned to the Father.

Alyssa S
Apr 25th 2008, 04:42 PM
John146
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. - Matthew 27:50-53

Notice that it says many saints physically arose from the grave right after Jesus died and yielded up His spirit. It says they came out of the graves "after His resurrection".


But these saints did not ascend to Heaven at that moment because they went into the city and appeared to many people... nor did they ascend when Jesus did. Jesus also called Lazarus from his SLEEP...Lazarus was not in Heaven with God... he was in the grave. He too, was resurrected, but he did not ascend to Heaven.

John 3:13 "No one has EVER gone into heaven except the one who came FROM heaven--the Son of Man."

According to Scripture, that will not happen until the Last Day at the Resurrection of the Dead and Rapture of the church. (I Thess 4:15)

matthew94
Apr 26th 2008, 05:32 AM
But the verse doesn't say that God is dividing joints from joints...or soul from soul. He is dividing/separating two completely different things that are very intimately related. "It penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow..."

Actually, it does NOT say that God's Word divides soul FROM Spirit. It says it divides soul AND spirit. We could take the AND as FROM (as you are) or we could take it to mean it can divide the soul and it can divide the spirit (as I am). But we cannot be dogmatic since the word isn't FROM.


If soul and spirit are the same exact thing, then how do we explain this verse?

1 Thess 5:23 "May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Most of the Greek scholars I've read have said that Paul often piled up synonyms to stress his point. So that is possible here. In any case, you're talking about a few proof texts here and there attempting to overcome a mountain of biblical evidence that we are holistic in nature with 2 aspects: Material (flesh) and immaterial (spirit). The term soul can be used to describe the whole-holistic person OR as a synonym for spirit.

Firstfruits
Apr 26th 2008, 09:00 AM
I am with you!! I do not believe that Jesus went to HEAVEN when he died. I think it is very clear that Jesus was IN the grave awaiting his resurrection. The very important point I am trying to make is that the SPIRIT and SOUL are two different things. The spirit is simply the BREATH (AIR) that returned to the Father. This does not have to mean that Jesus ascended to Heaven. It just means that the BREATH that sustains life returned to the Father, while Jesus was in the grave.

No... he did not ascend to Heaven and then return. I, like you are trying to point out, feel that that belief is clearly un-biblical. But we cannot ignore the fact that Jesus said, "Father I commit my spirit unto you...and then he breathed is last." Is that a coincidence that SPIRIT means BREATH... and when Jesus said these words the BREATH of life departed him? He went to the grave to await his resurrection as his breath returned to the Father.

Amen and Amen, 100% with you.

Firstfruits
Apr 26th 2008, 09:09 AM
But these saints did not ascend to Heaven at that moment because they went into the city and appeared to many people... nor did they ascend when Jesus did. Jesus also called Lazarus from his SLEEP...Lazarus was not in Heaven with God... he was in the grave. He too, was resurrected, but he did not ascend to Heaven.

John 3:13 "No one has EVER gone into heaven except the one who came FROM heaven--the Son of Man."

According to Scripture, that will not happen until the Last Day at the Resurrection of the Dead and Rapture of the church. (I Thess 4:15)

As Job has said "Till the Heavens be no more" or when Jesus returns.

Amen!!!!!

Firstfruits
Apr 26th 2008, 09:24 AM
Actually, it does NOT say that God's Word divides soul FROM Spirit. It says it divides soul AND spirit. We could take the AND as FROM (as you are) or we could take it to mean it can divide the soul and it can divide the spirit (as I am). But we cannot be dogmatic since the word isn't FROM.



Most of the Greek scholars I've read have said that Paul often piled up synonyms to stress his point. So that is possible here. In any case, you're talking about a few proof texts here and there attempting to overcome a mountain of biblical evidence that we are holistic in nature with 2 aspects: Material (flesh) and immaterial (spirit). The term soul can be used to describe the whole-holistic person OR as a synonym for spirit.

May be this scripture will help explain that although the Soul is also the spirit but in the same way the spirit is also known as breath or breath of life when we die we give up/lose the breath of life/spirit in other words we die.

Gen 2:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Gen 6:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Gen 7:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

Gen 7:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

Job 33:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=33&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

In this regards the spirit is separated from the soul, until the resurrection of the dead.

matthew94
Apr 26th 2008, 02:29 PM
Yes, I agree. The best place to go to find out what 'parts' man is made of is Genesis 2:7 since that is when man was cooked up (so to speak).

Body (dust) + Spirit (breath) = Soul

Thus a soul is not something we have, but a soul is what we are. Unfortunately for simplicity, the word soul begins to be used synonymously with spirit in the NT times. But you are correct about the primary usage of soul in Scripture.

Alyssa S
Apr 26th 2008, 03:56 PM
matthew94;Actually, it does NOT say that God's Word divides soul FROM Spirit. It says it divides soul AND spirit. We could take the AND as FROM (as you are) or we could take it to mean it can divide the soul and it can divide the spirit (as I am). But we cannot be dogmatic since the word isn't FROM.


The problem is, once again, the second example given in this verse is joint and marrow: "dividing soul and spirit, joint and marrow..." Would you agree that Joint and Marrow are two completely different things? As I used in my analogy, when someone gets a bone marrow transplant, are they getting BOTH the marrow AND the bone? They are not getting a bone transplant...but only marrow transplanted INTO their bone. One holds/contains the other. But the interesting this is, from what I was told by a doctor, the JOINT (as mentioned in this verse) does not contain MARROW. Only bones contain marrow. But even if a joint DOES contain marrow, the two are still different. But they are VERY INTIMATELY related.

So to your point: Dividing Soul AND Spirit... I agree. That is, afterall, what the Scriptures say. But the Scriptures ALSO have attached to that verse, separated by a comma, "Joint AND Marrow." We cannot form our opinion about soul and spirit being the SAME from our preconceived ideas that were taught from scholars, preachers or teachers when we have words like "Joint and Marrow" that are distinctively different, while yet, very intimately related. We simply cannot ignore the words that were placed in this verse. If God wanted to show that soul and spirit were exactly the same, why did he use a comparison such as "joint and marrow" which are clearly different?



Most of the Greek scholars I've read have said that Paul often piled up synonyms to stress his point. So that is possible here. In any case, you're talking about a few proof texts here and there attempting to overcome a mountain of biblical evidence that we are holistic in nature with 2 aspects: Material (flesh) and immaterial (spirit). The term soul can be used to describe the whole-holistic person OR as a synonym for spirit.


I am not trying to prove with a couple of proof texts that we are "more" than flesh and spirit. "BREATH" is spiritual. The BODY is flesh. The SOUL is spiritual.

When God said; "Let "US" make man in "OUR" image, in "OUR" LIKENESS...Gen 1:26" what do we think he is talking about?

BODY: (JESUS): Col 1:15 "HE is the IMAGE of the INVISIBLE God..."
SPIRIT: (HOLY SPIRIT): The third person of the Trinity) Gen 1:2 "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the SPIRIT of God was hovering over the waters."
SOUL: (FATHER-MIND & WILL): Col 1:15 "HE is the IMAGE of the INVISIBLE God..." Isaiah 42:1 "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect in whom MY SOUL (Nephesh) delighteth; I have put my SPIRIT (Ruwach) upon him..."

Matthew 12:18 "Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my SOUL is well pleased: I will put my SPIRIT upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles."

Hebrews 10:38 "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my SOUL shall have no pleasure in him."

God is clearly Body, Soul, and Spirit. Man is clearly Body, Soul, and Spirit. Because Man was created in (their) image.

Alyssa S
Apr 26th 2008, 04:48 PM
Old Testament usage of SPIRIT/BREATH:

The following is from my PC Study Vines Expository Dictionary.
After looking at these verses, can we still say that SOUL and SPIRIT are the exact same thing??

SPIRIT; BREATH

Ruach OT:7307, "breath; air; strength; wind; breeze; spirit; courage; temper; Spirit."

First, this word means "breath," air for breathing, air that is being breathed. This meaning is especially evident in Jer 14:6: "And the wild asses did stand in the high places, they snuffed up the wind like dragons...."
When one's "breath" returns, he is revived: "...when he [Samson] had drunk [the water], his spirit [literally, "breath"] came again, and he revived..." Judg 15:19.
Astonishment may take away one's "breath": "And when the queen of Sheba had seen all Solomon's wisdom, and the home that he had built, And the meat of his table,... there was no more spirit in her [she was overwhelmed and breathless]" 1 Kings 10:4-5.
Ruach may also represent speaking, or the breath of one's mouth: "By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth" Ps. 33:6>; cf. Ex 15:8; Job 4:9; 19:17
Second, this word can be used with emphasis on the invisible, intangible, fleeting quality of "air": "O remember that my life (not the Hebrew for "soul") is wind: mine eyes shall no more see good" Job 7:7.
"And the prophets shall become wind, and the word is not in them..." Jer 5:13.
In Gen 3:8 it seems to mean the gentle, refreshing evening breeze so well known in the Near East: "And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool [literally, "breeze"] of the day...."
It can also signify an extremely strong wind: "And the Lord turned a mighty strong west wind..." Ex 10:19.
The wind represents direction. In Jer 49:36 the four winds represent the four ends of the earth, which in turn represent every quarter: "And upon Elam will I bring the four winds [peoples from every quarter of the earth] from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come."
Ruach frequently represents the element of life in a man, his natural "spirit": "And all flesh died that moved upon the earth,... All in whose nostrils was the breath of life..." Gen 7:21-22. HMMM.... Doesn't this say that ALL flesh, meaning ANIMALS TOO had the breath of life in them? Would we, who believe that soul and sprit are the SAME, then believe that animals have SOULS?? If ALL flesh has the Breath of Life in them and Spirit and Soul are supposedly the same... then animals are equal to humans??

In these verses the animals have a "spirit" (cf. Ps 104:29) "When you take away their BREATH, they DIE and return to the DUST. When you send your SPIRIT they are created."

After looking at these verses, can we still say that SOUL and SPIRIT are the exact same thing??

matthew94
Apr 27th 2008, 04:51 AM
1. No, animals don't have souls. They ARE souls.

2. I never said souls and spirits are the same thing. I said the two terms can be USED synonymously.

3. Both of my above points can be proven as facts from Scripture.

Firstfruits
Apr 27th 2008, 10:15 AM
1. No, animals don't have souls. They ARE souls.

2. I never said souls and spirits are the same thing. I said the two terms can be USED synonymously.

3. Both of my above points can be proven as facts from Scripture.

With regards to Genesis and the first man becoming a living soul:
Gen 2:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The soul belongs to man it is also the spirit of man, however the breath of life is from God and if we take away the spirit of God, the breath of life/God, our soul/spirit/body dies.

When Jesus gave up the ghost/spirit he died but his soul/spirit went to the grave/hell. In this case if the spirit mentioned here are the same then he would not have died because his spirit/soul was in the grave with his body.

Job 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

I hope I have not confused the issue.

Firstfruits
Apr 27th 2008, 10:39 AM
According to the gospel of Christ it is written;
John 3:13 "No one has EVER gone into heaven except the one who came FROM heaven--the Son of Man."

Until the resurrection of the dead, is/was the expectation of the believers when we die, according to the following scriptures?

Acts 2:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Acts 2:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Acts 13:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

Job 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
Job 14:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
Job 14:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 14:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

When shall we be changed?1 Cor 15:51 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but We shall all Be changed,

1 Cor 15:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Firstfruits

matthew94
Apr 27th 2008, 11:04 AM
With regards to Genesis and the first man becoming a living soul:
Gen 2:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The soul belongs to man it is also the spirit of man, however the breath of life is from God and if we take away the spirit of God, the breath of life/God, our soul/spirit/body dies.

It's interesting, to me, that you quoted a Scripture and then added a bunch of stuff when interpreting it. Genesis 2:7, which you quoted (and which is the very best verse in Scripture to go to when looking to find out what 'parts' a man is made of), says very clearly man is made of the following:

Dust of the ground + breath of life = Living Soul

Yet, when you comment on this passage you create the following:

Body + (Soul/Spirit of man) + (breath of life/Spirit of God) = Man

Why not just leave it as Genesis 2:7 says it? The dust of the ground seems to indicate the material aspect of man and the breath of life seems to indicate the immaterial aspect of man.


When Jesus gave up the ghost/spirit he died but his soul/spirit went to the grave/hell. In this case if the spirit mentioned here are the same then he would not have died because his spirit/soul was in the grave with his body.

I'm definitely not sure what you are saying here. Jesus was fully man and thus He was made up of the same ingredients as Adam (dust + breath). When He died He gave up His breath/spirit to God who is the Giver of breath. His body went to the grave and His spirit went to the Father.[/quote]

Alyssa S
Apr 27th 2008, 02:14 PM
1. No, animals don't have souls. They ARE souls.

2. I never said souls and spirits are the same thing. I said the two terms can be USED synonymously.

3. Both of my above points can be proven as facts from Scripture.

Okay... :) My points can be proven as facts from Scripture as well...since I just presented a bunch (of Scripture) in the previous posts.

So, again, what do you think God meant when he said, "Let US make man in OUR image"? Is God the Father not SOUL ="MIND & WILL?" Is the Holy Spirit not the SPIRIT? Is the Lord Jesus not the BODY?

And at what point does man receive his MIND, WILL & EMOTIONS? Is that the spirit, the breath of life? Or is that the soul? In all of my definitions that I presented on spirit (breath of life) I do not recall it defining it as the MIND, WILL and EMOTIONS.

By the way, I am not 100% convinced that Soul and Spirit are completely different. But I cannot ignore the definitions of spirit... and the usage of it, even when the Lord distinguishes the two regarding himself.
..." Isaiah 42:1 "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect in whom MY SOUL (Nephesh) delighteth; I have put my SPIRIT (Ruwach) upon him..."

Alyssa S
Apr 27th 2008, 05:35 PM
Here is something else to ponder.

Where does the Breath of Life (SPIRIT) come from? The Father.
Gen 2:7 "The Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul."

If the spirit and the soul are the same thing (or synonimously used), then basically we would have to say that our souls existed in Heaven before we were created on earth....since the SPIRIT comes from God. Would we not?

I personally don't believe in the preexistence of the soul.

matthew94
Apr 27th 2008, 06:48 PM
So, again, what do you think God meant when he said, "Let US make man in OUR image"? Is God the Father not SOUL ="MIND & WILL?" Is the Holy Spirit not the SPIRIT? Is the Lord Jesus not the BODY?

Hey :) The US/OUR can be interpreted in a number of ways, but I actually agree with the Trinitarian interpretation (as you seem to) so I won't comment on that. But I think you are quite incorrect to conclude that the aspect of the Trinity that we reflect is 'trinity' itself. I believe the aspect of us that is made in God's image is that we are rational & relational beings. Of course, there are a host of other possibilities. Some, for example, think the correlation is immortality.

In my opinion, your theory on what makes up 'the image' doesn't even make sense. If the correlation is 'trinity' than our body, soul & spirit should be 3 distinct persons. But, of course, they are not.


And at what point does man receive his MIND, WILL & EMOTIONS? Is that the spirit, the breath of life? Or is that the soul? In all of my definitions that I presented on spirit (breath of life) I do not recall it defining it as the MIND, WILL and EMOTIONS.

Well, I am unaware of any dead bodies that continue to have thoughts, desires & feelings, so I feel somewhat safe concluding that, yes, those attributes are part of the immaterial aspect of man.


By the way, I am not 100% convinced that Soul and Spirit are completely different. But I cannot ignore the definitions of spirit... and the usage of it, even when the Lord distinguishes the two regarding himself.
..." Isaiah 42:1 "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect in whom MY SOUL (Nephesh) delighteth; I have put my SPIRIT (Ruwach) upon him..."

God is saying that His whole being delights to put the Holy Spirit into the incarnated Christ. God's Spirit is, of course, very different from our individual spirits. So I'm not sure how this verse serves your argument.

matthew94
Apr 27th 2008, 06:54 PM
Here is something else to ponder.

Where does the Breath of Life (SPIRIT) come from? The Father.
Gen 2:7 "The Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul."

If the spirit and the soul are the same thing (or synonimously used), then basically we would have to say that our souls existed in Heaven before we were created on earth....since the SPIRIT comes from God. Would we not?

I personally don't believe in the preexistence of the soul.

We wouldn't have to say that at all. There are 3 common views in regard to the beginning of the human 'spirit'

1. Pre-existence View: This is the pre-existence of the spirit view
2. Traducianist View: Immaterial aspect (spirit) passed on via procreation
3. Creationist View: Each human spirit specially created at conception

All three of these views would consist of a spirit coming from God

Alyssa S
Apr 27th 2008, 08:34 PM
Hey :) The US/OUR can be interpreted in a number of ways, but I actually agree with the Trinitarian interpretation (as you seem to) so I won't comment on that. But I think you are quite incorrect to conclude that the aspect of the Trinity that we reflect is 'trinity' itself. I believe the aspect of us that is made in God's image is that we are rational & relational beings. Of course, there are a host of other possibilities. Some, for example, think the correlation is immortality.

Hey! :)

Ok, so you agree with the Trinitarian aspect that God is made up of Soul, Spirit, and Body. But when God said "Let us make man in OUR image, in our LIKENESS" why can't we be made in the "image" (NOT exact representation, but LIKENESS) the "image" of him? Please know!! I am not claiming that we are all little gods! Yikes! I am simply saying that God HIMSELF said that he would make us in THEIR image. There are, in fact, THREE in the makeup of God. Is it so far fetched to say that since God is Soul, Body, and Spirit... that we who were made in his "image and likeness" were given a Body, Spirit and Soul?

I am not making this up. Scripture clearly reveals as I have already presented to you. And no, I am not saying that we are Three Persons either. I am simply saying that God made us in his image, and like him, we are body, soul and spirit.



Some, for example, think the correlation is immortality



Are you saying that we are immortal? But doesn't 1 Timothy 6:15 say otherwise?
"God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who ALONE is immortal and who lives in approachable light, who no one has seen or can see."

If you are saying that God created us in his image to be immortal, then that doesn't happen when the breath of life enters us at the moment when God (creates) us. That happens at the Resurrection on the Last Day, if we had accepted the Lord as Savior, of course. "This corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Cor. 15:53).

So immortality cannot apply at Gen 1:26.




In my opinion, your theory on what makes up 'the image' doesn't even make sense. If the correlation is 'trinity' than our body, soul & spirit should be 3 distinct persons. But, of course, they are not.


And again, I am not implying that we are three distinct persons by any means. And that's ok if it doesn't even make sense to you. I am simply presenting the Scriptures. :)



Well, I am unaware of any dead bodies that continue to have thoughts, desires & feelings, so I feel somewhat safe concluding that, yes, those attributes are part of the immaterial aspect of man.


:lol: Now that's funny. "I see dead people...and they are talking to me." Just totally kidding!!!! THAT wasn't my question! Here was my question:

And at what point does man receive his MIND, WILL & EMOTIONS? Is that the spirit, the breath of life? Or is that the soul? In all of my definitions that I presented on spirit (breath of life) I do not recall it defining it as the MIND, WILL and EMOTIONS.

The point of my question is.....to show that there is a distinction between soul and spirit. Does the mind will and emotions come from the spirit, which is "breath, wind, air, strong wind!".... or... Does the mind, will and emotions come from the soul?



God is saying that His whole being delights to put the Holy Spirit into the incarnated Christ. God's Spirit is, of course, very different from our individual spirits. So I'm not sure how this verse serves your argument.
[/quote]

Just trying to show that if soul and spirit were one in the same, why didn't God use the same word? "My soul delighteth, I have put my soul upon him." or "My spirit delighteth, I have put my spirit upon him." But he didn't. He said, "My soul delighteth, I have put my spirit upon him."

The whole point of this is to show that these, soul and spirit, in my opinion, are distinctively different.

Alyssa S
Apr 27th 2008, 09:01 PM
We wouldn't have to say that at all. There are 3 common views in regard to the beginning of the human 'spirit'

1. Pre-existence View: This is the pre-existence of the spirit view
2. Traducianist View: Immaterial aspect (spirit) passed on via procreation
3. Creationist View: Each human spirit specially created at conception

All three of these views would consist of a spirit coming from God

Of course, the spirit and soul come from God as does the body, the earth and all of creation. That is not my point. And it seems MAYBE :) you are wanting to avoid the point I am trying to make about the soul and spirit being different.

Did we exist BEFORE we were born? Do you think our SOULS preexisted??

If you say, "NO".... then you would have to admit that soul and spirit are different. Because the bible says that the breath of life comes from Heaven and the breath of life returns to Heaven. (Eccl 12:7) The word used to describe the "breath of life" is SPIRIT. "Spirit" in the Ecclesiastes verse is "Ruwach" NOT "Nephesh" (Soul).

OT:7307 HEBREW ruwach (roo'-akh); from OT:7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation;

IF spirit and soul are one in the same, as you believe.... then we would have to conclude that since the "breath of life" has always been with God... then the soul would have been as well. And I don't believe we preexisted.

These three viewpoints that you have presented above cannot apply to God's spirit, "breath of life," because the "breath of life" has existed since God has existed. There was no creating it.... it ALWAYS was. And again, I am NOT talking about each individual soul... I am specifically talking about the spirit/breath of life that IS... WAS... and always WILL BE.

matthew94
Apr 27th 2008, 09:48 PM
Hey! :)

Hey :)


Ok, so you agree with the Trinitarian aspect that God is made up of Soul, Spirit, and Body. But when God said "Let us make man in OUR image, in our LIKENESS" why can't we be made in the "image" (NOT exact representation, but LIKENESS) the "image" of him? Please know!! I am not claiming that we are all little gods! Yikes! I am simply saying that God HIMSELF said that he would make us in THEIR image. There are, in fact, THREE in the makeup of God. Is it so far fetched to say that since God is Soul, Body, and Spirit... that we who were made in his "image and likeness" were given a Body, Spirit and Soul?

Sorry for the miscommunication. I wasn't saying I agreed with you. I was saying I agree that the US and the OUR implied the Trinity. I wasn't saying I agreed with your BODY/SOUL/SPIRIT interpretation of the Trinity! Jesus wasn't incarnated for, at least, several thousand years after Genesis 1. I disagree that the Trinity is made up of Body, Soul & Spirit.

And I still say that IF the Trinity were made up of Body/Soul/Spirit, and that THAT is how we are in the image of God, we would have to be made up of 3 Persons since the Trinity is 3 Persons. Otherwise it doesn't really work in my opinion.



Are you saying that we are immortal? But doesn't 1 Timothy 6:15 say otherwise?
"God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who ALONE is immortal and who lives in approachable light, who no one has seen or can see."

If you are saying that God created us in his image to be immortal, then that doesn't happen when the breath of life enters us at the moment when God (creates) us. That happens at the Resurrection on the Last Day, if we had accepted the Lord as Savior, of course. "This corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Cor. 15:53).

Nope, I wasn't saying we are immortal. I was saying some people theorize that we are. I am in total agreement with you about 1 Timothy.


The point of my question is.....to show that there is a distinction between soul and spirit. Does the mind will and emotions come from the spirit, which is "breath, wind, air, strong wind!".... or... Does the mind, will and emotions come from the soul?

The idea that a soul is made up of mind will & emotions is a non-biblical view. I think it has its roots in modern psychology. The mind will and emotions are certainly ingredients of our immaterial aspect. I see no reason to categorize them into 2 different compartments.


Just trying to show that if soul and spirit were one in the same, why didn't God use the same word? "My soul delighteth, I have put my soul upon him." or "My spirit delighteth, I have put my spirit upon him." But he didn't. He said, "My soul delighteth, I have put my spirit upon him."

The whole point of this is to show that these, soul and spirit, in my opinion, are distinctively different.

It could be an example of literary parallelism. This is very common in Scripture. In consists of saying the same statement twice using different words.

matthew94
Apr 27th 2008, 09:54 PM
Did we exist BEFORE we were born? Do you think our SOULS preexisted??

No. I don't think so.


If you say, "NO".... then you would have to admit that soul and spirit are different. Because the bible says that the breath of life comes from Heaven and the breath of life returns to Heaven. (Eccl 12:7) The word used to describe the "breath of life" is SPIRIT. "Spirit" in the Ecclesiastes verse is "Ruwach" NOT "Nephesh" (Soul).

OT:7307 HEBREW ruwach (roo'-akh); from OT:7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation;

IF spirit and soul are one in the same, as you believe.... then we would have to conclude that since the "breath of life" has always been with God... then the soul would have been as well. And I don't believe we preexisted.

You seem to be making the assumption that something that comes from God has to have pre-existed. I find this very odd.


These three viewpoints that you have presented above cannot apply to God's spirit, "breath of life," because the "breath of life" has existed since God has existed. There was no creating it.... it ALWAYS was. And again, I am NOT talking about each individual soul... I am specifically talking about the spirit/breath of life that IS... WAS... and always WILL BE.

A soul (person) has 2 aspects: Material & Immaterial. You have chosen to break the immaterial aspect into 2 components. But this is very arbitrary. Why not 4? Heart, soul, mind, strength? Why not 5? Heart soul, spirit, mind, strength. Why not break the material aspect into 2? Joint & marrow. It's unnecessary.

Alyssa S
Apr 28th 2008, 01:49 AM
[quote=matthew94;1619262]No. I don't think so.
You seem to be making the assumption that something that comes from God has to have pre-existed. I find this very odd.


Hey, Hey, Hey! :)

Who you callin' odd??! JK!

Okay, so would you say that God pre-existed?
Would you say the Spirit pre-existed?
Would you say that the Son of God pre-existed?

The "something" that I say that pre-existed is the "Breath of Life/Spirit". Is that such an irrational thought? I realize the problem here is that we are dealing with pre-conceived ideas about the soul and spirit being the same thing... or one in the same. And again, you may be correct. But I would hope that you could step away from any pre-conceived ideas a moment and see what it is I am trying to point out to you.

I do not believe that the soul pre-existed.
I DO believe that the "Breath of Life/spirit" has always existed.

"The Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and BREATHED into his nostrils the BREATH OF LIFE, and the man became a living being (soul)." Gen 2:7

Since you believe that spirit/breath and soul are the same thing (breath)... then according to you, this verse could also read as ".....and BREATHED into his nostrils the BREATH OF LIFE and the man became a BREATHING BREATH.

Here is your quote:
Personally, I prefer to allow soul to mean 'breathing being' in my mind .....and since the word, "being" is the SOUL, which you call the breath, that is how I came up with the above.

Now.... THAT sounds odd to me! :)

Alyssa S
Apr 28th 2008, 03:54 AM
[quote=matthew94;1619257]Hey :)
Sorry for the miscommunication. I wasn't saying I agreed with you. I was saying I agree that the US and the OUR implied the Trinity. I wasn't saying I agreed with your BODY/SOUL/SPIRIT interpretation of the Trinity! Jesus wasn't incarnated for, at least, several thousand years after Genesis 1. I disagree that the Trinity is made up of Body, Soul & Spirit.


Do you think that God the Father is Visible?

"No one has ever seen God..." John 1:8
"No one has seen the Father..." Jesus Christ, John 6:46
"...God...whom no one has seen OR CAN see." I Timothy 6:16

Could it then be possible for this to be the SOUL of the Trinity?
Does God have a soul?

"And I will set my tabernacle among you: and MY SOUL shall not abhor you." Lev 26:11
"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, MY SOUL shall have no pleasure in him." Heb 10:38
"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom MY SOUL delighteth; I have put MY SPIRIT upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles." Is 42:1 (This verse shows that God is Soul AND Spirit).

The soul of man cannot be seen right? And yet, it is still considered to be the core of our existence. In a similar manner, God the father is thought to be the identity, the center, and the essence of our God, and yet, according to the Bible, he is invisible.

What about the Holy Spirit?

"The wind (PNEUMA) blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit (PNEUMA-Current of air/Breath)." John 3:5-8

Is this not clearly the SPIRIT of the Trinity?
The same spirit that is within man is also invisible....as is the soul.

Do you think that the Son of God is Visible? When I make claim that God is made up of Soul, Spirit, and Body, you say that Jesus was not incarnate till thousands of years after Genesis, therefore you do not believe God is made up of Soul, Body and Spirit. But does that prove that Jesus does not have a BODY? Does that prove that he did not have some form of body prior to his incarnation? It would appear by your statement that that is what you believe. But what does the Scripture tell us?

"He is the image of the invisible God." 1 Col 1:15
"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being..." Heb 1:3
"For in Christ all the fullness of the deity lives in bodily form..." Col 2:9

We might assume that this Scripture is speaking of the Lord Jesus as he appeared on earth, but this is not the case. This verse was written many years after Christ ascended into Heaven, and the verse was written in the present tense. This is speaking of the eternal, glorious, spiritual body of the Lord Jesus Christ who is also the same one Ezekiel described LONG before the incarnation of Christ who has "the form of a man, " but has a body "like fiery metal" and radiates "like the sun."

"I looked and saw a figure like that of a MAN. I saw that from what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal..." Ezekiel 8:2

"...his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like burnished bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters...His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance." Rev 1:14-15, 16

Not only did John see his BODY this way... so did Ezekiel and Daniel who saw him LONG before his incarnation.

"His BODY was like chrysolite, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze." Daniel 10:6

It would appear to me, that our glorious Lord Jesus has always had a body...pre-incarnation and post-incarnation.



And I still say that IF the Trinity were made up of Body/Soul/Spirit, and that THAT is how we are in the image of God, we would have to be made up of 3 Persons since the Trinity is 3 Persons. Otherwise it doesn't really work in my opinion.

And there is a big difference between being the "EXACT REPRESENTATION OF HIS BEING" as Jesus is.... and being "CREATED IN THEIR "LIKENESS." as we are!!
Big Difference!!!



The idea that a soul is made up of mind will & emotions is a non-biblical view. I think it has its roots in modern psychology. The mind will and emotions are certainly ingredients of our immaterial aspect. I see no reason to categorize them into 2 different compartments.


Well, you're entitled to your opinion. :) But I see reason to categorize them into two different departments when Scripture has!

matthew94
Apr 28th 2008, 05:25 AM
Okay, so would you say that God pre-existed?
Would you say the Spirit pre-existed?
Would you say that the Son of God pre-existed?

Yes, of course
Yes, of course
Yes, of course


The "something" that I say that pre-existed is the "Breath of Life/Spirit". Is that such an irrational thought? I realize the problem here is that we are dealing with pre-conceived ideas about the soul and spirit being the same thing... or one in the same. And again, you may be correct. But I would hope that you could step away from any pre-conceived ideas a moment and see what it is I am trying to point out to you.

Here, you seem to be equating the Holy Spirit with the human spirit (notice how you capitlized 'Spirit'). I very much understand what you are trying to say. I was formerly a trichotomist myself since I had been taught what you currently believe. Trichotomy was my pre-conceived idea.



Since you believe that spirit/breath and soul are the same thing (breath)... then according to you, this verse could also read as ".....and BREATHED into his nostrils the BREATH OF LIFE and the man became a BREATHING BREATH.

Unfortunately, you are still not understanding the view I am expressing. I have stated numerous times that the terms spirit and soul CAN be used synonymously, especially in NT literature, but not that they ALWAYS are used synonymously. I have stated numerous times that the PRIMARY biblical usage of soul is synonymous with the whole person. Rather than having souls, we ARE souls (that is the primary usage).

I will try to state my position 1 more time in clearer terms. Genesis 2:7 gives the following equation:

Material aspect (dust) + immaterial aspect (breath) = soul

The material aspect can be called the BODY. The immaterial aspect may be designated as the spirit. The holistic person is the soul (breathing being).

Later on, in the evolution of language, the term soul began to be used to describe the immaterial aspect of man as well. In such cases, it was basically synonymous with spirit since both were used to describe the immaterial aspects of humans. Any author was free to use soul OR spirit to describe any given component within the immaterial aspect (mind, will, emotion, passion, breath, feelings, etc).

matthew94
Apr 28th 2008, 05:49 AM
1. Do you think that God the Father is Visible?
2. Could it then be possible for this to be the SOUL of the Trinity?
3. Does God have a soul?

1. No.
2. I see no reason to say such a thing
3. God IS a soul (a Being) with Personality (which can be described using the term soul)


The soul of man cannot be seen right? And yet, it is still considered to be the core of our existence. In a similar manner, God the father is thought to be the identity, the center, and the essence of our God, and yet, according to the Bible, he is invisible.

First, we should note that you are using the secondary meaning of soul here. By primary usage, saying the soul of man cannot be seen is a very strange statement since the soul IS the man. But if you are using the term soul to describe the immaterial aspect of man (as the NT often does) then you are correct. By definition, the immaterial aspect cannot be seen.

There's no reason, though, to say that the soul is the core of our existence anymore than the body. That is a fairly Greek notion. Christianity holds the material and immaterial aspects of humanity in equal regards.

What about the Holy Spirit?


"The wind (PNEUMA) blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit (PNEUMA-Current of air/Breath)." John 3:5-8

Is this not clearly the SPIRIT of the Trinity?
The same spirit that is within man is also invisible....as is the soul.

You're asking me here if there is a correlation between the Holy Spirit and the human spirit. Certainly there are some things in common.


Do you think that the Son of God is Visible? When I make claim that God is made up of Soul, Spirit, and Body, you say that Jesus was not incarnate till thousands of years after Genesis, therefore you do not believe God is made up of Soul, Body and Spirit. But does that prove that Jesus does not have a BODY? Does that prove that he did not have some form of body prior to his incarnation? It would appear by your statement that that is what you believe.

Certainly Jesus was visible and still has a body. You seem to be claiming that He's always had a body, but there is no good argument for such a statement. The incarnation is, by definition, WHEN God took on flesh. I do very much say that Jesus did not have a body prior to the incarnation.


But what does the Scripture tell us?

"He is the image of the invisible God." 1 Col 1:15
"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being..." Heb 1:3
"For in Christ all the fullness of the deity lives in bodily form..." Col 2:9

These Scriptures are talking, of course, about the incarnated Christ!


We might assume that this Scripture is speaking of the Lord Jesus as he appeared on earth, but this is not the case. This verse was written many years after Christ ascended into Heaven, and the verse was written in the present tense. This is speaking of the eternal, glorious, spiritual body of the Lord Jesus Christ who is also the same one Ezekiel described LONG before the incarnation of Christ who has "the form of a man, " but has a body "like fiery metal" and radiates "like the sun."

Jesus in still incarnate and Ezekiel was prophesying. The OT gives symbolic physical remarks regarding the Father too. Does that mean He has a body? I am very surprised that you are arguing that Jesus was incarnate before the incarnation.


It would appear to me, that our glorious Lord Jesus has always had a body...pre-incarnation and post-incarnation.

So your position is that Jesus had flesh before being made flesh. Ok. I just don't agree or see any good evidence for this.


Well, you're entitled to your opinion. :) But I see reason to categorize them into two different departments when Scripture has!

But, as I asked, why not MORE departments? Jesus said love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. Did He mean the literal heart organ or was He referring to the immaterial center of our being? I think you'll agree the latter was in mind. I'm sure you'd consider 'soul' here to be immaterial. You said mind is immaterial. Strength is physical I suppose. So why not use this verse as a proof text as you have used Hebrews 4:12? Why not say that man is made up of Body, Heart, Mind & Soul? It'd be just as strong an argument, in my opinion, as you are making here.

Firstfruits
Apr 28th 2008, 09:29 AM
It's interesting, to me, that you quoted a Scripture and then added a bunch of stuff when interpreting it. Genesis 2:7, which you quoted (and which is the very best verse in Scripture to go to when looking to find out what 'parts' a man is made of), says very clearly man is made of the following:

Dust of the ground + breath of life = Living Soul

Yet, when you comment on this passage you create the following:

Body + (Soul/Spirit of man) + (breath of life/Spirit of God) = Man

Why not just leave it as Genesis 2:7 says it? The dust of the ground seems to indicate the material aspect of man and the breath of life seems to indicate the immaterial aspect of man.



I'm definitely not sure what you are saying here. Jesus was fully man and thus He was made up of the same ingredients as Adam (dust + breath). When He died He gave up His breath/spirit to God who is the Giver of breath. His body went to the grave and His spirit went to the Father.[/quote]

Body + (Soul/Spirit of man) + (breath of life/Spirit of God) = Man

The breath of life is from God, if since the breath is also known as spirit then we need to be aware of how it is applied. The soul is explained as being the breath, spirit, ghost, life. So when we apply God giving the breath of life, we need to know to whom it belongs and which context applies. The spirit has various descriptions/meanings, Ie, life, soul etc depeding on how it is applied. it would be wrong to say that God put soul which also means breath into man and he became a living soul.

Sorry if that was confusing, but the application of soul,spirit etc as you mentioned earlier needs to be understood.

Firstfruits
Apr 28th 2008, 09:35 AM
Here is something else to ponder.

Where does the Breath of Life (SPIRIT) come from? The Father.
Gen 2:7 "The Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul."

If the spirit and the soul are the same thing (or synonimously used), then basically we would have to say that our souls existed in Heaven before we were created on earth....since the SPIRIT comes from God. Would we not?

I personally don't believe in the preexistence of the soul.

Amen, thanks Alyssa.

Just replied to Matthew94 with more or less the same.

Firstfruits
Apr 28th 2008, 09:47 AM
No. I don't think so.



You seem to be making the assumption that something that comes from God has to have pre-existed. I find this very odd.



A soul (person) has 2 aspects: Material & Immaterial. You have chosen to break the immaterial aspect into 2 components. But this is very arbitrary. Why not 4? Heart, soul, mind, strength? Why not 5? Heart soul, spirit, mind, strength. Why not break the material aspect into 2? Joint & marrow. It's unnecessary.

The breath of God is the life in all that are alive.

Gen 6:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Gen 7:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

Gen 7:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

Without the breath of life from God we die, and our soul/spirit/body goes to the grave.

Mk 15:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

Mk 15:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Lk 23:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Jn 19:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

When the breath of life left Jesus he died.

Mk 15:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

Mk 15:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Lk 23:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Jn 19:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Alyssa S
Apr 28th 2008, 03:38 PM
First, we should note that you are using the secondary meaning of soul here. By primary usage, saying the soul of man cannot be seen is a very strange statement since the soul IS the man. But if you are using the term soul to describe the immaterial aspect of man (as the NT often does) then you are correct. By definition, the immaterial aspect cannot be seen.

Of course I am referring to the immaterial aspect. I think that goes without saying. ;)

There's no reason, though, to say that the soul is the core of our existence anymore than the body.
“SOMA” is the Greek word for BODY. This word is used to describe the physical nature. It is distinct from “PNEUMA,” the spirit and it is, in my opinion, distinct from “PSUCHE,” the soul, once again, as evidenced by 1 Thess 5:23 “May your whole spirit AND soul AND body be kept blameless….”
I know you don’t believe this and seem to think these are synonyms being stacked to prove a point, but we will just have to agree to disagree.


Certainly Jesus was visible and still has a body. You seem to be claiming that He's always had a body, but there is no good argument for such a statement. The incarnation is, by definition, WHEN God took on flesh. I do very much say that Jesus did not have a body prior to the incarnation.

And the key words there are…. “when he TOOK on FLESH” THAT is the incarnation. I am not speaking of the incarnation.



[quote]
"He is the image of the invisible God." 1 Col 1:15
"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being..." Heb 1:3
"For in Christ all the fullness of the deity lives in bodily form..." Col 2:9
These Scriptures are talking, of course, about the incarnated Christ!

Why do they have to be talking about the incarnated Christ? Was not our Lord Jesus ALWAYS the image of the invisible God? GOD IS AFTERALL…. INVISIBLE. No one has seen him nor CAN see him. Why do we assume that not until Jesus appeared IN THE FLESH, was he THEN the image of the Invisible God… was only THEN the radiance of God’s glory?? Again, these verses are in present tense and they were written years after his resurrection...when God restored Jesus to his former GLORY.

Jesus in still incarnate and Ezekiel was prophesying.I don’t understand what you are saying here?


The OT gives symbolic physical remarks regarding the Father too. Does that mean He has a body? I am very surprised that you are arguing that Jesus was incarnate before the incarnation.

Nope, God the Father does not have a BODY… never said he did. He is invisible.
So now it’s about symbolism? The Old Testament was not describing the Father. It was describing the SON. Even though some of these fellows, like Ezekiel and Daniel “fell down as though dead” as they saw “a figure like that of a man” who had “eyes like blazing fire” and “whose feet are like burnished bronze,” we believe that to only be symbolism? You don’t think they really saw this figure? Again, the OT is describing our eternal Lord Jesus, because NO ONE has seen the Father nor CAN they see the Father.

“These are the words of the SON OF GOD….. whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze.” Jesus, Rev 2:18

I NEVER said that Jesus was incarnate before the incarnation. There is a difference between taking on FLESH… and having a BODY like Chrysolite. Why is it so hard to believe that the eternal Lord Jesus only became a FORM at his incarnation? Do we really think that the way he appeared on earth is the way he will appear in the Kingdom, and BEFORE he appeared on earth he was invisible?? "JESUS (IS) the IMAGE of the INVISIBLE God." When Jesus said "I AM," did that mean he was "I WAS?" or "I WILL BE?" Of course not. He WAS....He IS.... and He always WILL BE. So if he "IS the IMAGE of the Invisible God," He has ALWAYS been the IMAGE of the Invisible God.

Before Jesus died he said this....

“And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I HAD with you BEFORE the world began.” John 17:5
“The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.” Hebrews 1:3

Our Lord Jesus is an eternal being who has existed since the beginning and who only came to earth and took on the form of a man (flesh) for a VERY short period of time.


So your position is that Jesus had flesh before being made flesh. Ok. I just don't agree or see any good evidence for this.
I NEVER said that Jesus had flesh before being made flesh… did I. Do “feet like burnished bronze” sound like flesh to you? Do “eyes like blazing fire” sound like something that could be contained in flesh? Of course not.

I realize there is much symbolism in the bible, especially in Revelations.... Please hear me clearly on this. But I do not believe the “being” that these men saw, both prior to and after the incarnation, were figments of their imagination, or simply symbolic. And I firmly do not believe that this was the FATHER that they saw.

Okay then... God blesshoo!!
Alyssa :)

Alyssa S
Apr 28th 2008, 03:39 PM
Amen, thanks Alyssa.

Just replied to Matthew94 with more or less the same.

Thanks friend! God bless!!
:) Alyssa

Firstfruits
Apr 28th 2008, 04:05 PM
We wouldn't have to say that at all. There are 3 common views in regard to the beginning of the human 'spirit'

1. Pre-existence View: This is the pre-existence of the spirit view
2. Traducianist View: Immaterial aspect (spirit) passed on via procreation
3. Creationist View: Each human spirit specially created at conception

All three of these views would consist of a spirit coming from God

With regards to the following is there a difference between the breath of God and the breath of man?

Job 12:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Job 17:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My breath is corrupt, my days are extinct, the graves are ready for me.

Job 27:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=27&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;

Job 33:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=33&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Gen 2:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Why does Job show a distinction is there is no difference?

Firstfruits
Apr 28th 2008, 04:06 PM
Thanks friend! God bless!!
:) Alyssa

You are most welcome, God bless you too!!!!!

matthew94
Apr 28th 2008, 04:52 PM
Firstfruits said...

1. The breath of God is the life in all that are alive.
2. Without the breath of life from God we die, and our soul/spirit/body goes to the grave.
3. When the breath of life left Jesus he died.

#1 is true, for the most part, although there are some creatures who aren't included as having breath even though they are alive. The first part of #2 is obviously true. The second part is obviously not true since Jesus' spirit went to the Father, not the grave, upon death. What's more, we have Paul & John giving further indication that the spirit (immaterial aspect) of a believer goes to God's presence upon death. #3 is just a repetition of the first part of #2.

Alyssa said

“SOMA” is the Greek word for BODY. This word is used to describe the physical nature. It is distinct from “PNEUMA,” the spirit and it is, in my opinion, distinct from “PSUCHE,” the soul, once again, as evidenced by 1 Thess 5:23 “May your whole spirit AND soul AND body be kept blameless….”
I know you don’t believe this and seem to think these are synonyms being stacked to prove a point, but we will just have to agree to disagree.

I have no problem with the idea the soul and spirit can be used to describe distinct components of the immaterial aspect. I have a problem with compartmentalizing the immaterial aspect. One is free to use the term soul to describe the mind/will/emotions and the term spirit to describe the immaterial relationship with God, or whatever, but these are invisible/immaterial components of man's immaterial nature. The minute we start having immaterial souls go one direction and immaterial spirits go another direction (like upon death) we've begun confusing ourselves unnecessarily.



1. Why do they have to be talking about the incarnated Christ?
2. Was not our Lord Jesus ALWAYS the image of the invisible God? GOD IS AFTERALL…. INVISIBLE. No one has seen him nor CAN see him.
3. Why do we assume that not until Jesus appeared IN THE FLESH, was he THEN the image of the Invisible God… was only THEN the radiance of God’s glory?? Again, these verses are in present tense and they were written years after his resurrection...when God restored Jesus to his former GLORY....[your argument was quite long, so i'll stop the quote]

Since you are not talking of Jesus being human flesh prior to the incarnation, I don't think this point is worth disputing. I have no problem with your understanding of these passages, but I still don't see any indication that this makes the Trinity (Body + Soul + Spirit).

Firstfruits said...

1. With regards to the following is there a difference between the breath of God and the breath of man?
2. Why does Job show a distinction is there is no difference?

The breath of God was breathed into man in order to give man breath. There is no significant difference (I think we are agreed on this point). Of course, the breath of God is not synonymous with the Holy Spirit. That is the point I was making. We have to be thoughtful with words because the same words can have multiple meanings depending on context. I am somewhat confused by your 2nd question.

matthew94
Apr 28th 2008, 05:40 PM
I wanted to post a little bit of background on where I am coming from in regard to the makeup of human beings. There are 4 positions that have often been taken:

1) Materialist View (Flesh = Man)
This is the view of evolutionists and atheists. They believe everything (even emotions, desires, etc) can be explained by naturalistic visible mechanisms. There are a horde of problems with this view.

2) Monist View (Material & Immaterial Aspects = Man)
This is the view that was held by the ancient Jews and is held by many Jews & Christians today. It states that man was not man until he had both material and immaterial aspects in working order. It says that we are holistic units. We can talk about different aspects of man, but the aspects of the man cannot be separated without losing the man himself. Any existence without both aspects would be either impossible or very incomplete. I find this view very compelling.

3) Dichotomist View (Flesh + Spirit = Man)
This view became more and more popular amongst the Jews and early Christians as Greek philosophy became of greater influence, but there's a biblical case to be made as well. This view says man is made of 2 parts than can exist divided from each other. The body is dead without the spirit, but the immaterial part of man is either immortal or can be granted immortality in Christ. I find the best of this view is very closely linked with the Monist View and the worst of this view is more closely aligned with the Trichotomist View.

4) Trichotomist View (Flesh + Soul + Spirit = Man)
This view seems to be of later origin than the others. It is based on a seemingly short list of biblical proof-texts. I don't see enough biblical evidence or evidence from church history to support this view.

Alyssa S
Apr 28th 2008, 05:43 PM
Since you are not talking of Jesus being human flesh prior to the incarnation, I don't think this point is worth disputing. I have no problem with your understanding of these passages, but I still don't see any indication that this makes the Trinity (Body + Soul + Spirit).


Okay...:)
By the way, I apologize if I was insulting to you by saying that "I am not going to attempt to explain away the clear wording that is in my bible." It was pointed out to me that I had insulted you and that I was out of line, and if that is true, then I apologize.

I think you have a wonderful heart for the Lord and are obviously very passionate about the Scripture... and I have always enjoyed your posts. Just thought you should know!!

Thanks for discussing these issues...

God blesshooo.... :hug:
Alyssa

matthew94
Apr 28th 2008, 05:47 PM
No, I was not insulted. I like a good discussion. I, myself, have been worried that maybe (since I've been busy and a lot of my posts have been lacking a personal touch) I was coming across too coldly. I need to include more :) 's!

I suppose my major objection to the trichotomist position is that I'd much prefer to talk about man as 1 holistic unit with various aspects. Carving up man into distinct parts seems somewhat arbitrary. Why say the 'heart' or the 'soul' or the 'spirit' etc are different parts instead of allowing them to just be ways of describing the inner man. I am in pretty thorough agreement with the following statement from the Christian Research Institute:


The Bible clearly teaches that man is a unified being. However, this unity is divisible into two aspects, material and immaterial. In the Bible these aspects are variously termed, body and soul [e.g., Matt. 10:28], body and mind [e.g., Rom. 12:1-2], body and spirit [e.g., 1 Cor. 7:34; James 2:26], flesh and spirit [e.g., 1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Cor. 7:1], flesh and heart [e.g., Rom. 2:28-29], and, of course, the outer man and inner man [e.g., 2 Cor. 4:16]. Human beings, though they were created to live in the physical world, are also capable of existing in the spiritual realm as disembodied souls or spirits [e.g., Heb. 12:23; Rev. 6:9-11].

Now there are a few texts which, because they seem to distinguish between the soul and the spirit, lead Christians to hold that man has three parts — not only the body and soul, but the body, soul, and spirit [1 Thes. 5:18; Heb. 4:12; 1 Cor. 14:14]. Although, this threefold view, or trichotomy (as it’s called), is a possible interpretation of these Scriptures, the weight of evidence, in my opinion, from Scripture is clearly against it. If there is a biblical distinction between the soul and spirit, it is between the natural and supernatural dimensions of the inner, immaterial aspect of our being. In our inner man we can relate both to the world around us and to God. So if there’s truth in the trichotomist viewpoint, I’d say this is probably it. However, let me quickly add that these two dimensions, namely soul and spirit, are inseparable perspectives or functions of our inner man.

Alyssa S
Apr 28th 2008, 06:05 PM
I wanted to post a little bit of background on where I am coming from in regard to the makeup of human beings. There are 4 positions that have often been taken:

1) Materialist View (Flesh = Man)
This is the view of evolutionists and atheists. They believe everything (even emotions, desires, etc) can be explained by naturalistic visible mechanisms. There are a horde of problems with this view.

2) Monist View (Material & Immaterial Aspects = Man)
This is the view that was held by the ancient Jews and is held by many Jews & Christians today. It states that man was not man until he had both material and immaterial aspects in working order. It says that we are holistic units. We can talk about different aspects of man, but the aspects of the man cannot be separated without losing the man himself. Any existence without both aspects would be either impossible or very incomplete. I find this view very compelling.

3) Dichotomist View (Flesh + Spirit = Man)
This view became more and more popular amongst the Jews and early Christians as Greek philosophy became of greater influence, but there's a biblical case to be made as well. This view says man is made of 2 parts than can exist divided from each other. The body is dead without the spirit, but the immaterial part of man is either immortal or can be granted immortality in Christ. I find the best of this view is very closely linked with the Monist View and the worst of this view is more closely aligned with the Trichotomist View.

4) Trichotomist View (Flesh + Soul + Spirit = Man)
This view seems to be of later origin than the others. It is based on a seemingly short list of biblical proof-texts. I don't see enough biblical evidence or evidence from church history to support this view.

I have never heard of these before. Thanks for sharing.
Well... I have always seemed to have fallen in the minority since I was a kid....:blush: guess it only makes sense that I am still there!! So where I stand now in my studies... I guess I am a Trichotomist. At least I know what to call it now. :)

Seriously, thanks for sharing! But I really am leary of giving things titles and categories. I guess because these titles and labels are man-made...kind of like the denominations. Of course, we're not going to find Trichotomist or Dichotomist in the bible. (At least I don't think!)

Anyhoo... nothing against what you shared... I still appreciate you pointing it out! I learned something new.

Alyssa S
Apr 28th 2008, 06:12 PM
No, I was not insulted. I like a good discussion. I, myself, have been worried that maybe (since I've been busy and a lot of my posts have been lacking a personal touch) I was coming across too coldly. I need to include more :) 's!

I suppose my major objection to the trichotomist position is that I'd much prefer to talk about man as 1 holistic unit with various aspects. Carving up man into distinct parts seems somewhat arbitrary. Why say the 'heart' or the 'soul' or the 'spirit' etc are different parts instead of allowing them to just be ways of describing the inner man. I am in pretty thorough agreement with the following statement from the Christian Research Institute:

Cool! No... I don't think you were cold at all. It can be so easy to come across the wrong way through the written word. I have a pretty goofy personality at times... but when I read back over some of my posts, I realize I did not express myself the way I meant to! Yikes!!

I will read what you posted a little later. Thanks for sharing, again. And I am always open to learning and allowing the Lord to show me things that I could have missed.

God bless... ~A

John146
Apr 28th 2008, 06:45 PM
But these saints did not ascend to Heaven at that moment because they went into the city and appeared to many people... nor did they ascend when Jesus did. Jesus also called Lazarus from his SLEEP...Lazarus was not in Heaven with God... he was in the grave. He too, was resurrected, but he did not ascend to Heaven.

John 3:13 "No one has EVER gone into heaven except the one who came FROM heaven--the Son of Man."

According to Scripture, that will not happen until the Last Day at the Resurrection of the Dead and Rapture of the church. (I Thess 4:15)

I didn't say they ascended to heaven. I only said they were resurrected. They were physically resurrected from the graves in the same bodies they had before they died. I believe they all died again later and will be physically resurrected and receive immortal, incorruptible bodies when Christ returns.

matthew94
Apr 28th 2008, 06:47 PM
Seriously, thanks for sharing! But I really am leary of giving things titles and categories. I guess because these titles and labels are man-made...kind of like the denominations. Of course, we're not going to find Trichotomist or Dichotomist in the bible. (At least I don't think!)

Yeah, they're definitely not words found in the Bible.

It's the same as the word 'Trinity.' We don't find it in the Bible, but it's a word we use to try to capture what the Bible says about God being 1 and yet the Father, Son & Spirit each being Divine. The term 'Trinity' helps us to grasp what we believe. The terms monist, dichotomist & trichotomist are simply meant to communicate different ways in which people understand the nature of man (mo = 1 part, di = 2 parts, tr = 3 parts).

I have enjoyed the discussion. God bless!

John146
Apr 28th 2008, 07:09 PM
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - James 2:26

This verse shows that the spirit can be separate from the body. The body is dead without the spirit. This explains how Stephen didn't die until he gave up his spirit to Jesus. It explains how Jesus didn't die until His spirit was given up to the Father in heaven.

matthew94
Apr 28th 2008, 07:19 PM
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - James 2:26

This verse shows that the spirit can be separate from the body. The body is dead without the spirit. This explains how Stephen didn't die until he gave up his spirit to Jesus. It explains how Jesus didn't die until His spirit was given up to the Father in heaven.

I agree. The body can't live without the spirit, but the spirit can live without the body. Of course, it is an incomplete form of life. We were never meant to exist without bodies. The souls/spirits in Revelation seem pretty eager for life AFTER life after death, as NT Wright would put it. Paul says the present heaven (spirits living 'in Christ' until the day of resurrection) is 'better by far' than living on the present earth. But it is still not the final destination for mankind. We look forward to a new Earth with resurrected and glorified bodies.

John146
Apr 28th 2008, 08:36 PM
I agree. The body can't live without the spirit, but the spirit can live without the body. Of course, it is an incomplete form of life. We were never meant to exist without bodies. The souls/spirits in Revelation seem pretty eager for life AFTER life after death, as NT Wright would put it. Paul says the present heaven (spirits living 'in Christ' until the day of resurrection) is 'better by far' than living on the present earth. But it is still not the final destination for mankind. We look forward to a new Earth with resurrected and glorified bodies.

Absolutely.

19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. - Romans 8:19-23

Notice that we are waiting for the redemption of our body. Why does he only mention our bodies? Because our spirits will have already been redeemed as a result of being born again of the Holy Spirit.

David Taylor
Apr 28th 2008, 09:11 PM
Hey guys, I was afraid that over the last dozen posts, this thread was going to turn into a soul-sleep discussion.

That doctrine, is only allowed to be discussed in the World-Religions forum per the rules(Bibleforums Rules... Please Read! (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=59397)), so I am going to move this discussion over there to that subforum.

If I can get things to work correctly, I am going to copy the OPs original post back to ETC, so that it can be re-discussed back on topic, and not venture into the soul-sleep arena.

Firstfruits
Apr 29th 2008, 08:47 AM
Hey guys, I was afraid that over the last dozen posts, this thread was going to turn into a soul-sleep discussion.

That doctrine, is only allowed to be discussed in the World-Religions forum per the rules(Bibleforums Rules... Please Read! (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=59397)), so I am going to move this discussion over there to that subforum.

If I can get things to work correctly, I am going to copy the OPs original post back to ETC, so that it can be re-discussed back on topic, and not venture into the soul-sleep arena.

Thanks David,

As you know the Op is about Jobs outlook on death, the grave and his hope of resurrection. I suppose with what Job said regarding the following would lead on to questions concerning our ascension.

Job 14:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

This was Jobs expectaion, which was confirmed in the following;

Acts 2:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Acts 2:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

If this therefore is about soul sleep, then how are we to explian what Jesus has declared?

Jn 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

David Taylor
Apr 29th 2008, 03:10 PM
Thanks David,

As you know the Op is about Jobs outlook on death, the grave and his hope of resurrection. I suppose with what Job said regarding the following would lead on to questions concerning our ascension.

Job 14:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

This was Jobs expectaion, which was confirmed in the following;

Acts 2:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Acts 2:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

If this therefore is about soul sleep, then how are we to explian what Jesus has declared?

Jn 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Job's body, as well as David's are in the ground; the tomb, not Heaven.

However, their spirits aren't locked into, and bound to their dead bodies lying in the grave.

In the same manner that Jesus' spirit left his body at death and went to the Father, while the body was buried in the grave; so does our spirit separate from our bodies which go into the tomb awaiting the resurrection.

James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead"

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. "

Acts 7:59 "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. And Saul was consenting unto his death"

Psalm 73:23 "Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand. Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever."

2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Philippians 1:23 "having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you."

So we can see that the spirit departs to be with Christ, present with the Lord....yet the body remains, here in the grave, awaiting the resurrection.


Re-examining your verses above, in light of that expectation, we can see that they mean:


Acts 2:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. (containing his dead body of flesh, not his Spirit)

Acts 2:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) For David (his body of flesh) is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Jn 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And no man hath (body of flesh)ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus alone, bodily ascended into Heaven as described here:

Luke 24:51 "And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven."

Firstfruits
Apr 29th 2008, 03:24 PM
Job's body, as well as David's are in the ground; the tomb, not Heaven.

However, their spirits aren't locked into, and bound to their dead bodies lying in the grave.

In the same manner that Jesus' spirit left his body at death and went to the Father, while the body was buried in the grave; so does our spirit separate from our bodies which go into the tomb awaiting the resurrection.

James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead"

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. "

Psalm 73:23 "Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand. Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever."

2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Philippians 1:23 "having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you."

So we can see that the spirit departs to be with Christ, present with the Lord....yet the body remains, here in the grave, awaiting the resurrection.


Re-examining your verses above, in light of that expectation, we can see that they mean:


Acts 2:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. (containing his dead body of flesh, not his Spirit)

Acts 2:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) For David (his body of flesh) is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Jn 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And no man hath (body of flesh)ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus alone, bodily ascended into Heaven as described here:

Luke 24:51 "And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven."





I take it that you are saying that the soul and the spirit are not the same knowing that Jesus soul was in the grave/hell until he was resurrected?

Acts 2:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Rev 6:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Note this is after they were resurrected, hence the first resurrection.

David Taylor
Apr 29th 2008, 04:04 PM
I take it that you are saying that the soul and the spirit are not the same knowing that Jesus soul was in the grave/hell until he was resurrected?


The term 'soul' is not used in a specific way in scriptures; but is used to denote either 1) the immaterial spirit of a person, or 2) the person in general.

In our common-day vernacular, it is more common to use the term 'soul' to mean the immaterial spirit of a person; like if we say, 'God bless that poor person's soul'....we are talking about their immaterial spirit.

However, sometimes we use the term soul to denote just the person, like saying, 'that poor soul who got run over by a lawnmower'.....clearly referncing the persons body; not their immaterial spirit which a lawnmower could not harm.

Acts 2:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

In the Acts 2:31 verse below, the context is speaking of his body did not rot in the grave, but was resurrected 3 days after it was placed in the tomb.

The 'immaterial spirit' is not mentioned in that verse, so in this case, 'soul' is not being used to describe the 'immaterial spirit' of Jesus. We know from other verses that were given at Calvary, though, that Jesus' immaterial spirit did not go to the grave, but rather, went to the Father.




Rev 6:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

This verse, however, is in contrast with the useage of 'soul' in the Acts passage; and is being used to specifically speak of the 'immaterial spirit'; because we know that the context of this verse, is venued in heaven and not the grave, and their are no physical, material human bodies in heaven at this point in time....just the souls or 'immaterial spirits' of those who have died and gone to be present with the Lord.



Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Another heavenly picture, show the triumph of those martyed on the Earth during their lives (where their bodies reside in the grave); yet their souls, again used in this context to denote their immaterial spirit present in Heaven with the Lord.

Firstfruits
Apr 30th 2008, 08:46 AM
The term 'soul' is not used in a specific way in scriptures; but is used to denote either 1) the immaterial spirit of a person, or 2) the person in general.

In our common-day vernacular, it is more common to use the term 'soul' to mean the immaterial spirit of a person; like if we say, 'God bless that poor person's soul'....we are talking about their immaterial spirit.

However, sometimes we use the term soul to denote just the person, like saying, 'that poor soul who got run over by a lawnmower'.....clearly referncing the persons body; not their immaterial spirit which a lawnmower could not harm.

Acts 2:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

In the Acts 2:31 verse below, the context is speaking of his body did not rot in the grave, but was resurrected 3 days after it was placed in the tomb.

The 'immaterial spirit' is not mentioned in that verse, so in this case, 'soul' is not being used to describe the 'immaterial spirit' of Jesus. We know from other verses that were given at Calvary, though, that Jesus' immaterial spirit did not go to the grave, but rather, went to the Father.




Rev 6:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

This verse, however, is in contrast with the useage of 'soul' in the Acts passage; and is being used to specifically speak of the 'immaterial spirit'; because we know that the context of this verse, is venued in heaven and not the grave, and their are no physical, material human bodies in heaven at this point in time....just the souls or 'immaterial spirits' of those who have died and gone to be present with the Lord.



Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Another heavenly picture, show the triumph of those martyed on the Earth during their lives (where their bodies reside in the grave); yet their souls, again used in this context to denote their immaterial spirit present in Heaven with the Lord.

The bible says that the following have been resurrected from the dead.

Rev 6:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

With regards to the following are you saying that the soul of Jesus mentioned is just a common term?

Does that mean that before he ascended to the Father he did not first descend into hell/the grave, the lower parts of the earth?

Eph 4:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Eph 4:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

If as Jesus said he had not yet ascended to the Father until after his resurrection;

Jn 20:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

If he had ascended to the Father why then did he say he had not?

How many times did Jesus ascend into heaven?

David Taylor
Apr 30th 2008, 12:43 PM
Does that mean that before he ascended to the Father he did not first descend into hell/the grave, the lower parts of the earth?

Eph 4:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

His body was placed in the grave.



Eph 4:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

His body ascended into heaven, as described at the end of Luke and beginning of Acts.



If as Jesus said he had not yet ascended to the Father until after his resurrection;

Jn 20:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

His body had not yet ascended, but His spirit went to the father when He died on Calvary.


If he had ascended to the Father why then did he say he had not?

How many times did Jesus ascend into heaven?
Only once bodily.

His Spirit at Calvary.
His body on ascension day.

Firstfruits
Apr 30th 2008, 03:00 PM
His body was placed in the grave.

[quote=Firstfruits;1622178]
Eph 4:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Its body ascended into heaven, as described at the end of Luke and beginning of Acts.


His body had not yet ascended, but His spirit went to the father when He died on Calvary.

Only once bodily.

His Spirit at Calvary.
His body on ascension day.

Which description/use of the word soul applies in the following, concerning Jesus?

Ps 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

If Christs spirit went to the Father at calvery why does it say he first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

Eph 4:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
This is before he ascended;

Mt 12:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Did he not therefore descend before he ascended? which would make his declaration that he had not yet ascended according to the prophecy, of which he fulfilled.

Jn 20:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

To ascend at Calvery and at Ascension day is two ascensions, isn't it?

Alyssa S
Apr 30th 2008, 03:50 PM
[quote=Firstfruits;1622379]

Ps 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

If Christs spirit went to the Father at calvery why does it say he first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

Eph 4:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
This is before he ascended;



Luke 23:46 "And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit my SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last.

It would appear by this verse, that spirit and breath are related since Jesus died when he offered up his spirit. That, in my opinion, would have had to have happened FIRST. So the breath of life has returned to the Father.

And as you said, what do we do with this verse?.....
Ps 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Everyone seems to agree that the "soul" is referencing the "being." So the soul would be Jesus, himself. And as you pointed out, he (soul/being) descended FIRST before he (soul/being) ascended according to this Scripture:
Eph 4:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth."

David Taylor
Apr 30th 2008, 05:44 PM
His body was placed in the grave.



Which description/use of the word soul applies in the following, concerning Jesus?

Ps 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

The Psalms passage is talking about the physical body; firstly of David in the initial phrase, and secondly, a messianic prophecy of Jesus' body in the second phrase.

Both David's body, and Jesus' body went into the grave as depicted in that verse. But David's body remained in the grave; while Christ's body came out, and did not suffer corruption.

That is why the NT writer quoted that Psalmic verse, and explained it's application to David and more importantly, to Jesus.





If Christs spirit went to the Father at calvery why does it say he first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

Eph 4:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
This is before he ascended;

Mt 12:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Because Christ's body did descend into the lower parts of the Earth....Joseph of Aramethea had it taken down off of the cross; and placed down into the earth, in the grave.

The terms 'lower parts of the Earth' and 'heart of the earth' are speaking of the grave, the tomb/seplechure that held Jesus' body behind the stone for 3 days.

But Jesus' spirit was not residing there in the grave with the body; it had already returned to the Father at the moment of His death on the cross.

James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead"

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. "

Luke 23:46 "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Philippians 1:23 "having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you."




Did he not therefore descend before he ascended? which would make his declaration that he had not yet ascended according to the prophecy, of which he fulfilled.

Jn 20:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

To ascend at Calvery and at Ascension day is two ascensions, isn't it?

Not two ascensions of His body.
His body only descended into the grave once, and only ascended Heaven to be with the Father once.

The Spirit, which is immaterial, doesn't really ascend or descend....since it isn't corporal. At Christ's death, His Spirit was no longer resident in His dead body; it was in the presence of the Father. It wasn't resident within His body again, until the 3rd day, when His body rose in power and glory.

David Taylor
Apr 30th 2008, 06:02 PM
Luke 23:46 "And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit my SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last.

It would appear by this verse, that spirit and breath are related since Jesus died when he offered up his spirit. That, in my opinion, would have had to have happened FIRST. So the breath of life has returned to the Father.
Yes, Jesus' immaterial spirit, his being; what we most commonly refer to today as his 'soul' returned to the Father.

Only the dead body of flesh remained to be buried in the grave, the lower parts of the Earth.




And as you said, what do we do with this verse?.....
Ps 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Everyone seems to agree that the "soul" is referencing the "being."

"soul" can in some contexts mean "being"; but in some contexts, it also can mean "immaterial spirit.".

In the case of this verse, the context of how soul is used, is of the dead body going to the grave....not the conscious immaterial spirit going to the grave.

David's body went into the grave. Jesus body went into the grave, but didn't stay there long enough to decompose or see corruption.

Peter, quoting from the Psalms, makes it clear that David was talking about his body....not his own immaterial spirit.

Look further at what Peter restates the Psalmic verse here:

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

David's body was dead and buried in the sepulchre, even unto the day Peter was speaking.

Verse 29 makes it very clear the context of David's "soul in hell" was talking about David's "dead and buried body in the sepulchre". (Not his immaterial spirit).

Peter goes on the clarify the second part of the Psalmic verse, about Christ not suffering corruption....that his dead body which went into the grave was resurrected from that grave.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

So in the case of both the Psalmic prophecy, and the Acts fulfillment; the useage of 'soul' is in regards to the material fleshly body; not the immaterial spirit.





So the soul would be Jesus, himself. And as you pointed out, he (soul/being) descended FIRST before he (soul/being) ascended according to this Scripture:
Eph 4:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth."

No the 'soul' used in that passage wasn't "Jesus Himself", it was Jesus dead body of flesh.

Jesus' dead body of flesh descended first into Josephs earth/tomb, and then three days later Jesus' body of flesh ascended back out of the earth/tomb, and his body of flesh (now glorified) ascended back to Heaven 40 days later from the Mt of Olives.

'Soul' as seen above, is sometimes used to describe the body or randomly of a living person.

'Soul' at other times, is used to differentiate between the physical body, and the immaterial spirit.

Alyssa S
May 1st 2008, 04:34 AM
The Spirit, which is immaterial, doesn't really ascend or descend....since it isn't corporal.

The Spirit doesn't ascend or descend? Then how come the Scriptures tell us differently?

Matt 3:16 "...At that moment he saw the Spirit (pneuma) of God DESCENDING like a dove and lighting on him."

John 1:32 "Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit (pneuma) DESCENDING like a dove from heaven, and it remained on him."

Firstfruits
May 1st 2008, 08:26 AM
The Psalms passage is talking about the physical body; firstly of David in the initial phrase, and secondly, a messianic prophecy of Jesus' body in the second phrase.

Both David's body, and Jesus' body went into the grave as depicted in that verse. But David's body remained in the grave; while Christ's body came out, and did not suffer corruption.

That is why the NT writer quoted that Psalmic verse, and explained it's application to David and more importantly, to Jesus.




Because Christ's body did descend into the lower parts of the Earth....Joseph of Aramethea had it taken down off of the cross; and placed down into the earth, in the grave.

The terms 'lower parts of the Earth' and 'heart of the earth' are speaking of the grave, the tomb/seplechure that held Jesus' body behind the stone for 3 days.

But Jesus' spirit was not residing there in the grave with the body; it had already returned to the Father at the moment of His death on the cross.

James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead"

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. "

Luke 23:46 "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Philippians 1:23 "having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you."




Not two ascensions of His body.
His body only descended into the grave once, and only ascended Heaven to be with the Father once.

The Spirit, which is immaterial, doesn't really ascend or descend....since it isn't corporal. At Christ's death, His Spirit was no longer resident in His dead body; it was in the presence of the Father. It wasn't resident within His body again, until the 3rd day, when His body rose in power and glory.

If the spirit does not ascend or descend, then how did his spirit ascend at calvery?

Firstfruits
May 1st 2008, 08:28 AM
The Spirit doesn't ascend or descend? Then how come the Scriptures tell us differently?

Matt 3:16 "...At that moment he saw the Spirit (pneuma) of God DESCENDING like a dove and lighting on him."

John 1:32 "Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit (pneuma) DESCENDING like a dove from heaven, and it remained on him."

Hi Alyssa,

Good to see you!!!!!

FF

David Taylor
May 1st 2008, 12:42 PM
The Spirit is immaterial.

It isnt hindered by mass, friction, velocity or any of the attributes and characteristics of matter that occupies physical material space.

When it's movement is described, metaphor is used to convey what is occurring, that otherwise couldn't be conveyed.

When it descends like a dove, that is metaphor, not a material beak, wings, and feathers.

At/After his death...

Jesus spirit was commended into the hands of the Father.(according to the Scriptures)
Jesus spirit didn't go into the grave, his body did.(according to the Scriptures)
Jesus body was raised, and physically ascended into the heavens as the apostles witnessed.(according to the Scriptures)

Firstfruits
May 1st 2008, 03:04 PM
With the understanding that the spirit/breath of God is in every living soul;

Eccles 12:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Job 12:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

It is this that returns to God. We all have the spirit/breath of God and we are all destined to die, does that therefore mean that wether good or bad the spirit of God within us will return to God in heaven, according to Ecc. 12:7

Eccles 12:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Is our soul/spirit the spirit of God that returns to him?

Alyssa S
May 1st 2008, 06:07 PM
With the understanding that the spirit/breath of God is in every living soul;


Excellent point! The spirit (breath of life) is even in ANIMALS. So EVERYONE/LIVING THING receives the spirit/breath of life.


Eccles 12:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7)

WHO'S spirit/breath of life? Only believers or ALL LIVING THINGS?


Job 12:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10)

The Scripture seems pretty clear to me that the spirit/breath of life is in ALL/EVERY living thing.




It is this that returns to God. We all have the spirit/breath of God and we are all destined to die, does that therefore mean that whether good or bad the spirit of God within us will return to God in heaven, according to Ecc. 12:7

Eccles 12:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Is our soul/spirit the spirit of God that returns to him?

Going with the logic that the spirit/soul is the same thing, this says, by that doctrine, even the souls of the wicked return to God in heaven. That doesn't sit right with me, personally. And I'm pretty certain it can't be supported Scripturally.

Job 14:10 "But MAN dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more. As water disappears from the sea or a riverbed becomes parched and dry, so MAN lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, MEN will not awake or be roused from their sleep."

What exactly is the "MAN"? "WHO" is being laid low? "WHO" lies down and does not rise? "WHO" is it that won't awake or be roused from their sleep till the heavens are no more?

According to Matthew94, the soul, which you both (David and Matthew) seem to believe goes to Heaven when it dies, is the WHOLE PERSON.


Matthew94: I have stated numerous times that the PRIMARY biblical usage of soul is synonymous with the whole person. Rather than having souls, we ARE souls (that is the primary usage).



If you believe that the soul is the whole person, then it would make sense that the "MAN" that lies down, who is asleep is the "SOUL" the "BEING."
But there could be a problem there as well. The soul is not "WHOLE" without the spirit/breath of life. Or is it?

Don't forget about the wicked... because they have spirits/breath of life too.... and I have a pretty good idea they aren't in Heaven. But yet, Eccl 12:7 tells us that even THEIR spirits/breath of life will return to Heaven. Surely this can't be their soul too??

Alyssa S
May 1st 2008, 06:53 PM
When it's movement is described, metaphor is used to convey what is occurring, that otherwise couldn't be conveyed.

Then what did John "see?" Surely he witnessed something or he wouldn't have recorded it.
Matt 3:16 "...At that moment he saw the Spirit (pneuma) of God DESCENDING like a dove and lighting on him."

John 1:32 "Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit (pneuma) DESCENDING like a dove from heaven, and it remained on him."



When it descends like a dove, that is metaphor, not a material beak, wings, and feathers.

I don't believe it was a material beak, wings and feathers. But then, I wasn't there. I won't assume that it didn't happen like that. But I would have to agree with you that it wasn't a literal dove.

But he DID say that the Spirit DESCENDED "LIKE" a dove.

"I saw the boy RUNNING "LIKE" a Cheetah." Does this statement conclude that the boy was the cheetah? Of course not. A metaphor is being used to define an actual event. But the boy was "DOING" something like a Cheetah. He was RUNNING. So too, the SPIRIT was "DOING" something like a dove. It was DESCENDING.

It seems to me that Scripture is revealing what John SAW/WITNESSED: The Spirit DESCENDING. If "SPIRIT" (PNEUMA) is also defined as the wind, then why would it be so hard to think that the Spirit cannot descend or ascend?

John 3:8 "The WIND (PNEUMA) blows WHEREVER it pleases." If the PNEUMA blows "wherever it pleases"... then we can conclude that also means north and south. (Ascend/Descend)


At/After his death...

Jesus spirit was commended into the hands of the Father.(according to the Scriptures)
Agreed.


Jesus spirit didn't go into the grave, his body did.(according to the Scriptures)

Jesus' spirit/breath of life went to the Father. The body went to the grave, yes.



Jesus body was raised, and physically ascended into the heavens as the apostles witnessed.(according to the Scriptures)

[/quote]
Agreed. But wouldn't you agree that Jesus is also SPIRIT? So was it only his body that was raised?

Alyssa S
May 1st 2008, 06:54 PM
Hi Alyssa,

Good to see you!!!!!

FF

You're so kind! Thank you!!! Good to "see" you too!

:hug:
Alyssa

Firstfruits
May 2nd 2008, 09:46 AM
[quote]


Luke 23:46 "And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit my SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last.

It would appear by this verse, that spirit and breath are related since Jesus died when he offered up his spirit. That, in my opinion, would have had to have happened FIRST. So the breath of life has returned to the Father.

And as you said, what do we do with this verse?.....
Ps 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Everyone seems to agree that the "soul" is referencing the "being." So the soul would be Jesus, himself. And as you pointed out, he (soul/being) descended FIRST before he (soul/being) ascended according to this Scripture:
Eph 4:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth."

Just to point out Jesus said commend my spirit;

Lk 23:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. (Died)

This gives a different meaning from what we may believe. The word commend means; Worthy of praise, Confidence, Recommend, Give charge, entrust. This Jesus did this regarding Gods promise.

Ps 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Mt 10:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Acts 2:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

David comitted his spirit to God;

Ps 31:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

Again this is David believing that God will protect him.

Firstfruits
May 2nd 2008, 09:51 AM
Excellent point! The spirit (breath of life) is even in ANIMALS. So EVERYONE/LIVING THING receives the spirit/breath of life.



WHO'S spirit/breath of life? Only believers or ALL LIVING THINGS?



The Scripture seems pretty clear to me that the spirit/breath of life is in ALL/EVERY living thing.




Going with the logic that the spirit/soul is the same thing, this says, by that doctrine, even the souls of the wicked return to God in heaven. That doesn't sit right with me, personally. And I'm pretty certain it can't be supported Scripturally.

Job 14:10 "But MAN dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more. As water disappears from the sea or a riverbed becomes parched and dry, so MAN lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, MEN will not awake or be roused from their sleep."

What exactly is the "MAN"? "WHO" is being laid low? "WHO" lies down and does not rise? "WHO" is it that won't awake or be roused from their sleep till the heavens are no more?

According to Matthew94, the soul, which you both (David and Matthew) seem to believe goes to Heaven when it dies, is the WHOLE PERSON.


If you believe that the soul is the whole person, then it would make sense that the "MAN" that lies down, who is asleep is the "SOUL" the "BEING."
But there could be a problem there as well. The soul is not "WHOLE" without the spirit/breath of life. Or is it?

Don't forget about the wicked... because they have spirits/breath of life too.... and I have a pretty good idea they aren't in Heaven. But yet, Eccl 12:7 tells us that even THEIR spirits/breath of life will return to Heaven. Surely this can't be their soul too??

Absolutley!!!! Amen.

Alyssa S
May 2nd 2008, 02:59 PM
[quote=Firstfruits;1624274]

Just to point out Jesus said commend my spirit;

Lk 23:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. (Died)

This gives a different meaning from what we may believe. The word commend means; Worthy of praise, Confidence, Recommend, Give charge, entrust. This Jesus did this regarding Gods promise.

Ps 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Mt 10:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Acts 2:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

David comitted his spirit to God;

Ps 31:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

Again this is David believing that God will protect him.[/quote


It seems to be that the whole HOPE of David, the HOPE of Job, and the HOPE of Paul was the Resurrection of the Dead on the Last Day. Their HOPE was the future RETURN of their literal Savior who would raise them from death to life, destroy the wicked, and give them their inheritance of his Kingdom as adopted sons of God. I have yet to find any Scripture that says Paul's hope was going to heaven when he died. He was after all, on trial for the defense of the Resurrection.

The HOPE of these men sure seems (to me) something that happens on the Last Day and no sooner. But if someone can show me Scripture that says otherwise, I would be open to it, obviously.

John 7:33 "I am with you for only a short time, and then I go to the one who sent me. You will look for me, but you will not find me; and where I am, YOU CANNOT COME."

John 5:28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when ALL who are in their GRAVES will hear his voice and come out --- those who have done good will RISE to LIVE, and those who have done evil will RISE to be condemned."

John 6:39 "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none that he has given me, but RAISE them up at the LAST DAY."

Alyssa S
May 2nd 2008, 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by Alyssa S http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1623587#post1623587)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firstfruits http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1623413#post1623413)
With the understanding that the spirit/breath of God is in every living soul;

Excellent point! The spirit (breath of life) is even in ANIMALS. So EVERYONE/LIVING THING receives the spirit/breath of life.

Quote:
Eccles 12:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7)


WHO'S spirit/breath of life? Only believers or ALL LIVING THINGS?

Quote:
Job 12:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10)
The Scripture seems pretty clear to me that the spirit/breath of life is in ALL/EVERY living thing.


Quote:
It is this that returns to God. We all have the spirit/breath of God and we are all destined to die, does that therefore mean that whether good or bad the spirit of God within us will return to God in heaven, according to Ecc. 12:7

Eccles 12:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Is our soul/spirit the spirit of God that returns to him?
Going with the logic that the spirit/soul is the same thing, this says, by that doctrine, even the souls of the wicked return to God in heaven. That doesn't sit right with me, personally. And I'm pretty certain it can't be supported Scripturally.

Job 14:10 "But MAN dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more. As water disappears from the sea or a riverbed becomes parched and dry, so MAN lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, MEN will not awake or be roused from their sleep."

What exactly is the "MAN"? "WHO" is being laid low? "WHO" lies down and does not rise? "WHO" is it that won't awake or be roused from their sleep till the heavens are no more?

According to Matthew94, the soul, which you both (David and Matthew) seem to believe goes to Heaven when it dies, is the WHOLE PERSON.
Quote:
Matthew94: I have stated numerous times that the PRIMARY biblical usage of soul is synonymous with the whole person. Rather than having souls, we ARE souls (that is the primary usage).

If you believe that the soul is the whole person, then it would make sense that the "MAN" that lies down, who is asleep is the "SOUL" the "BEING."
But there could be a problem there as well. The soul is not "WHOLE" without the spirit/breath of life. Or is it?

Don't forget about the wicked... because they have spirits/breath of life too.... and I have a pretty good idea they aren't in Heaven. But yet, Eccl 12:7 tells us that even THEIR spirits/breath of life will return to Heaven. Surely this can't be their soul too??


David Taylor? Or anybody?
Does anyone have an opinion or Scripture regarding the above?

If a soul and spirit are the same thing (as you believe), and we know that ALL living things have the "breath of life/spirit," then isn't this doctrine implying that the WICKED go to Heaven when they die? I, personally, do not agree with that concept. What says you?

David Taylor
May 2nd 2008, 03:20 PM
David Taylor? Or anybody?
Does anyone have an opinion or Scripture regarding the above?

If a soul and spirit are the same thing (as you believe), and we know that ALL living things have the "breath of life/spirit," then isn't this doctrine implying that the WICKED go to Heaven when they die? I, personally, do not agree with that concept. What says you?

No the wicked nor hippos and squirrels, go to heaven when they die.

Only those who belong to Christ go to be in His presence when they die.

The wicked go to fiery conscious torment.

Animals like plants, are apart of God's creation, but are not made in God's image, and do not possess an immortal component; only temporal.

Alyssa S
May 2nd 2008, 06:46 PM
No the wicked nor hippos and squirrels, go to heaven when they die.

Only those who belong to Christ go to be in His presence when they die.

The wicked go to fiery conscious torment.

Animals like plants, are apart of God's creation, but are not made in God's image, and do not possess an immortal component; only temporal.

Hey David! :)
Okay, I agree that the wicked don't go to heaven when they die.
Here is a quote that you included in one of your posts:


Originally Posted by David Taylor http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1623283#post1623283)Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. "


You failed to answer a few of the questions that FirstFruit and I asked. Perhaps you overlooked it. If the spirit/breath of life is in ALL living things...and the spirit/breath of life of ALL living things returns unto God who gave it, then wouldn't the "WICKED" have to be included in the "ALL THINGS" category? Doesn't this verse reveal that the spirit of the wicked returns unto God who gave it? I don't see any exceptions in this verse? Am I missing something?

Do you believe this next verse is true?
Job 12:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10)
Did you and Matthew94 not argue that spirit and soul are one in the same?

Here is my opinion... I think the spirit and soul are very intimately related. But I still think they are different. Because we know that the WICKED will not inherit the Kingdom of God and we KNOW that the WICKED are not in Heaven with God right now.

1 Thess 5:23 "May your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Again, David, IF the soul and spirit are the SAME, and IF when "the spirit RETURNS to the Father" means that THIS is the soul returning TOO, then that would HAVE to include the wicked. And that just isn't possible. ALL SPIRITS RETURN TO THE FATHER. The spirit is THE BREATH OF LIFE. I don't see how this is referencing the SOUL.

How do we deal with this particular problem? I truly want to know. I am not looking to win an argument. I am looking for TRUTH, because I am not completely sold either way. But I am definitely leaning in one direction quite a bit more because of the overwhelming Scripture.

Too... if what you say is true...that the wicked are currently in fiery conscious torment, then how come this next verse implies that no-one will be judged until the Last Day?

John 12:48 "There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will CONDEMN him at the LAST DAY."

If they are not judged and condemned till the Last Day, how can they possibly be in conscious torment RIGHT NOW?

Firstfruits
May 3rd 2008, 03:07 PM
Hey David! :)
Okay, I agree that the wicked don't go to heaven when they die.
Here is a quote that you included in one of your posts:



You failed to answer a few of the questions that FirstFruit and I asked. Perhaps you overlooked it. If the spirit/breath of life is in ALL living things...and the spirit/breath of life of ALL living things returns unto God who gave it, then wouldn't the "WICKED" have to be included in the "ALL THINGS" category? Doesn't this verse reveal that the spirit of the wicked returns unto God who gave it? I don't see any exceptions in this verse? Am I missing something?

Do you believe this next verse is true?
Job 12:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10)
Did you and Matthew94 not argue that spirit and soul are one in the same?

Here is my opinion... I think the spirit and soul are very intimately related. But I still think they are different. Because we know that the WICKED will not inherit the Kingdom of God and we KNOW that the WICKED are not in Heaven with God right now.

1 Thess 5:23 "May your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Again, David, IF the soul and spirit are the SAME, and IF when "the spirit RETURNS to the Father" means that THIS is the soul returning TOO, then that would HAVE to include the wicked. And that just isn't possible. ALL SPIRITS RETURN TO THE FATHER. The spirit is THE BREATH OF LIFE. I don't see how this is referencing the SOUL.

How do we deal with this particular problem? I truly want to know. I am not looking to win an argument. I am looking for TRUTH, because I am not completely sold either way. But I am definitely leaning in one direction quite a bit more because of the overwhelming Scripture.

Too... if what you say is true...that the wicked are currently in fiery conscious torment, then how come this next verse implies that no-one will be judged until the Last Day?

John 12:48 "There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will CONDEMN him at the LAST DAY."

If they are not judged and condemned till the Last Day, how can they possibly be in conscious torment RIGHT NOW?

Hi Alyssa,

I believe that if we are putting that which is written first, then the same scripture would have to say that this is not so, but as it is there does not appear to be any that state otherwise.

Is our hope according to the hope of Job, David, Paul, if so is it therefore not gospel and not just world religion?

Firstfruits
May 3rd 2008, 03:30 PM
No the wicked nor hippos and squirrels, go to heaven when they die.

Only those who belong to Christ go to be in His presence when they die.

The wicked go to fiery conscious torment.

Animals like plants, are apart of God's creation, but are not made in God's image, and do not possess an immortal component; only temporal.

How would you explain the following?

Eccles 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Eccles 3:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) All go unto one place; All are of the dust, and All turn to dust again.

Eccles 6:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

Eccles 3:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, (ascends) and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

One person who should know has stated the following;

Jn 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jn 20:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

This is according to the gospel we have received.

Acts 2:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

With the breath/spirit of God man is a living soul, without it he is a dead soul/man.

Gen 2:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

1 Cor 15:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

No breath/spirit of God, no life.

We all have one breath.

We all go to the same place.

Are there any scriptures that state contrary to Christs declaration regarding ascension?

Firstfruits

Alyssa S
May 3rd 2008, 11:26 PM
Hi Alyssa,

I believe that if we are putting that which is written first, then the same scripture would have to say that this is not so, but as it is there does not appear to be any that state otherwise.

Hi FF!

So basically, what you are saying is that you agree that the spirit/breath of life is in ALL LIVING THINGS and the spirit/breath of life in ALL LIVING THINGS, including the righteous as well as the wicked, return to the Father who gave it when they breathe their last? Considering even the wicked falls under the category of "ALL LIVING THINGS," it would only make sense.

Job 12:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind. (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10)

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. "



Is our hope according to the hope of Job, David, Paul, if so is it therefore not gospel and not just world religion?


Amen! As for me, I plan on placing my HOPE in the same thing as these three! YES!! This is the Gospel! NO! It is not "World Religion." :eek:

Firstfruits
May 4th 2008, 10:14 AM
Hi FF!

So basically, what you are saying is that you agree that the spirit/breath of life is in ALL LIVING THINGS and the spirit/breath of life in ALL LIVING THINGS, including the righteous as well as the wicked, return to the Father who gave it when they breathe their last? Considering even the wicked falls under the category of "ALL LIVING THINGS," it would only make sense.

Job 12:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind. (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10)

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. "



Amen! As for me, I plan on placing my HOPE in the same thing as these three! YES!! This is the Gospel! NO! It is not "World Religion." :eek:


My answer to your question according to the following is yes.

Job 34:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=34&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
Job 34:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=34&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Ps 146:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=146&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Ps 146:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=146&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to His earth; in that very day His thoughts perish.

When Jesus commended his spirit to God and gave up the ghost he spoke in regards to being in control of his life, in that he did not give the ghost/breath/spirit of God until all was fulfilled and then he died.

Jn 10:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Jn 10:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Jn 10:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Jesus commended/entrusted his spirit/soul to God that he would do according to his promise,

Ps 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

so even though his soul/body went to the grave, as we all shall, his body did not return to dust/see corruption, God kept his promise.

As Jesus pointed out he did not ascend to heaven until after his resurrection.

This is the message of the gospel, this is the hope of Job that one day he shall be raised from the dead when the heavens are no more, after Gods wrath has past.

The message is still the same, we are all dust, when God takes his spirit/breath we shall die and return to the grave until as Jesus has promised, the last day.

Jn 6:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jn 6:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 12:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

I hope that answers you question.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Alyssa S
May 5th 2008, 12:29 AM
Hey David!

I guess you must be really busy. Hopefully you will make it back to this thread and give us your two cents... because I would really like to know what the "mainstream Protestant" defense is for the spirit and soul supposedly being the same thing while knowing that ALL LIVING things have the spirit/breath of life and ALL spirits return to the Father at death. If the "mainstream Protestant view" is that the spirit and soul are the same thing, as you believe, then this means the WICKED are in heaven right now. I don't believe that is true. And you have said that you don't believe that either, but can you tell us how you reconcile Eccl 12:7 and Job 12:10 that says the spirit of ALL living things will return to the Father with the belief that the WICKED are somehow excluded from this? I'd greatly appreciate it. Isn't the wicked part of the "ALL living things?"


Also David, if we go to heaven when we die, and heaven upon death is our supposed "present hope," how do we explain this verse?

"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.."(Eccl.9:5)

Thanks! God bless... Alyssa

Alyssa S
May 5th 2008, 12:31 AM
My answer to your question according to the following is yes.

Job 34:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=34&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
Job 34:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=34&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Ps 146:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=146&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Ps 146:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=146&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to His earth; in that very day His thoughts perish.

When Jesus commended his spirit to God and gave up the ghost he spoke in regards to being in control of his life, in that he did not give the ghost/breath/spirit of God until all was fulfilled and then he died.

Jn 10:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Jn 10:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Jn 10:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Jesus commended/entrusted his spirit/soul to God that he would do according to his promise,

Ps 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

so even though his soul/body went to the grave, as we all shall, his body did not return to dust/see corruption, God kept his promise.

As Jesus pointed out he did not ascend to heaven until after his resurrection.

This is the message of the gospel, this is the hope of Job that one day he shall be raised from the dead when the heavens are no more, after Gods wrath has past.

The message is still the same, we are all dust, when God takes his spirit/breath we shall die and return to the grave until as Jesus has promised, the last day.

Jn 6:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jn 6:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 12:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

I hope that answers you question.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yes! Thank you FF. I am with you... I cannot deny the Scripture. :)

God bless YOU!
~Alyssa

David Taylor
May 5th 2008, 02:20 PM
Hey David!

I guess you must be really busy. Hopefully you will make it back to this thread and give us your two cents... because I would really like to know what the "mainstream Protestant" defense is for the spirit and soul supposedly being the same thing while knowing that ALL LIVING things have the spirit/breath of life and ALL spirits return to the Father at death.

Sorry to have kept you waiting this weekend.

The mainstream Protestant view, as I understand it, is that there is a difference between the design of humans and animals and plants. While all 3 groups are living organisms, only humankind is made in God's image; and thereby unique among all creation.

As for within humankind, we can know from the scriptures; that the spirits of the wicked however, do not return to God; for he has prepared a place for them. Sometimes it is described as beyond a great gulf, sometimes an abyss, sometimes outer darkness, sometimes a place of chains and fire and weeping and gnashing of teeth; ...but not with and in the presence of the Father at death. That position, from the scriptures, is reserved for those who love Him, and who belong to Him.



If the "mainstream Protestant view" is that the spirit and soul are the same thing, as you believe, then this means the WICKED are in heaven right now. I don't believe that is true. And you have said that you don't believe that either, but can you tell us how you reconcile Eccl 12:7 and Job 12:10 that says the spirit of ALL living things will return to the Father with the belief that the WICKED are somehow excluded from this? I'd greatly appreciate it.

Isn't the wicked part of the "ALL living things?"

Also David, if we go to heaven when we die, and heaven upon death is our supposed "present hope," how do we explain this verse?

"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.."(Eccl.9:5)

Thanks! God bless... Alyssa


Job 12 is simply showing that God's hands are soverign, and that He controls and has power over all of His creation.
The Lord God is soverign over all living things. Job 12, however, doesn't say that the Lord welcomes and invites the wicked into Heaven.

Ecc 12 is distinguishing how that at death; the body and spirit are separated one from another; and that the body goes into the ground; whereas the spirit returns to God. If this were the only scripture in the bible that spoke on the state of man at death; then you might have an arguement with the notion that all humankind returns to God at death; and why is the wicked going there? However, this scripture is not in a lone-box, but must be received with the other scriptures that give us the destination and abode of the wicked at death; and prior to the final judgement.

Ecc Chapter 12 is contrasting our opportunity, while living on this earth during our lives, to do good and to abstain from evil. It further explains, in context, that once death has occurred, our influence here on this life is over; and complete. We can no longer love, hate, envy, or have any more involvement in the portion (of what is life) under the sun on this Earth. Even our memory eventually fades and ceases amongst the living who remain. Therefore, that passage admonishes us to make the most of our brief time living on this planet, and to do things acceptible to the Lord while we have that time and opportunity he has given us.

Once we die (as believers) and go to be with Him in His presence, our work is done. We will no longer intervene or interfere with life as it continues on this Earth.

Hope that helps you.

Alyssa S
May 5th 2008, 07:41 PM
David Taylor;1627562][quote]Sorry to have kept you waiting this weekend.

Oh, no problem! I understand that you are busy.


As for within humankind, we can know from the scriptures; that the spirits of the wicked however, do not return to God; for he has prepared a place for them.

But doesn't the Scripture say that the spirit/breath of life of ALL mankind returns to God? Again, there were no exceptions in this verse. (Eccl 12:7) I think "ALL" means exactly what it says.. "ALL."

Can you provide the Scripture that says where the wicked's spirit/breath of life will go at DEATH? I realize there are Scriptures that talk about the wicked in fiery torment, but I am talking about the actual Scripture that reveals where they will go AT THE TIME OF THEIR DEATH.

I have asked this before, but I will ask again: If the wicked are currently in fiery conscious torment, then how come this next verse implies that no-one will be judged until the Last Day?

John 12:48 "There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will CONDEMN him at the LAST DAY."

If they are not judged and condemned till the Last Day, how can they possibly be in conscious torment RIGHT NOW?



Sometimes it is described as beyond a great gulf, sometimes an abyss, sometimes outer darkness, sometimes a place of chains and fire and weeping and gnashing of teeth;


I agree.



Job 12 is simply showing that God's hands are soverign, and that He controls and has power over all of His creation.
The Lord God is soverign over all living things.
I agree.



Job 12, however, doesn't say that the Lord welcomes and invites the wicked into Heaven.

Well, I never believed that the Lord welcomes the wicked into Heaven. That isn't my argument. But Scripture clearly tells us that ALL spirit/breath of life returns to the Father. I do not think this is the soul. I think it is exactly what it says.... The Breath of Life.

So are you saying that you do not believe this verse is completely true?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. "

The OT saints did not go to heaven when they died....but their spirit still returned to the Father....where was their SOUL?
The NT saints (supposedly) go to heaven when they die... and their spirit ALSO returns to the Father. But at what point did the soul and spirit become the same thing? The Scripture still reads the same for NT saints. Jesus and Peter both breathed their last when they gave up their SPIRIT.

If we believe that the spirit/breath of life of Job, David, Abraham and all the other OT saints returned to the Father at death, then has anything changed for those of us who live and die today? Doesn't our spirit return to the Father when we die? Yet somehow, even though the Scripture reads the same "I commit my spirit unto you," we believe this means that this includes the soul too and we are immediately in heaven.


Ecc 12 is distinguishing how that at death; the body and spirit are separated one from another; and that the body goes into the ground; whereas the spirit returns to God. If this were the only scripture in the bible that spoke on the state of man at death; then you might have an arguement with the notion that all humankind returns to God at death;
But David, I am not arguing that all humankind returns to God at death. I have clearly stated that I believe that the spirit is the breath of life....and the soul is the mind will and emotions. I do not believe that they are the same though they are intimately related. I DO BELIEVE what the Scriptures say about ALL BREATH OF LIFE (not souls but SPIRIT) return to the Father. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between breath of life and humankind.

You seem to think Eccl 12 is the only lone Scripture that reveals what I believe the bible says will happen at death. This isn't the only Scripture. FF and I have included a load of them on this very post that reveal the condition of the dead. And we even asked you about them. You haven't given any Scripture to show differently, just your opinion.... which I do respect and appreciate, by the way. But it would be nice if you could list the Scriptures. :)



However, this scripture is not in a lone-box, but must be received with the other scriptures that give us the destination and abode of the wicked at death; and prior to the final judgement.

Would you mind listing those Scriptures that reveal where the wicked goes at the moment of death that shows contrast of the righteous with Eccl 12?


Ecc Chapter 12 is contrasting our opportunity, while living on this earth during our lives, to do good and to abstain from evil.
Do you mean Eccl Chapter 9?



It further explains, in context, that once death has occurred, our influence here on this life is over; and complete. We can no longer love, hate, envy, or have any more involvement in the portion (of what is life) under the sun on this Earth. Even our memory eventually fades and ceases amongst the living who remain. Therefore, that passage admonishes us to make the most of our brief time living on this planet, and to do things acceptible to the Lord while we have that time and opportunity he has given us.


I agree that it says these things, but I think it says a lot more.
The title of this whole section is "A Common DESTINY for ALL."
One of the two subjects of this section is the DESTINY OF ALL.

Eccl 9:2 "ALL share a common destiny---the RIGHTEOUS and the WICKED, (WHO are the "ALL?" - the righteous and the wicked) the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not."...."As it is with the good man...so with the sinner; As it is with those who take oaths...so with those who are afraid to take them."

AS IT IS??? As it is what??? The common destiny of ALL!!

9:3 "This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The SAME destiny overtakes ALL."

What is the destiny that overtakes ALL?

9:3 "The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and AFTERWARD they join THE DEAD."

9:5 "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing;"

9:10 "Whatever your hands find to do, do it with all your might, for IN THE GRAVE, WHERE YOU ARE GOING, (Who? the wicked AND righteous) there is NEITHER WORKING... NOR PLANNING... NOR KNOWLEDGE... NOR WISDOM."

If we are in heaven praising God when we die, then how do we explain this verse that says the righteous will not know anything nor will they be doing anything??

David Taylor
May 5th 2008, 09:08 PM
Alyssa,
Our bodies are in the grave at death. They stay there until the resurrection. Simple.
Our dead bodies in the grave don't praise, don't do any working, nor planning, nor have any knowledge or wisdom. The dust truly returns to dust; awaiting the resurrection.

When that old corrupt body will be raised in like manner to Jesus' own dead body.

Only Jesus body, lay in the grave.
His immaterial spirit, His untouchable soul that makes up his thoughts, knowledge, wisdom, memories, compassion, love, and mercy never ceased to exist. Was not wiped from the scope of existence.

Nor do I believe ours do either.

Fundamentally, what I see as the difference between the soul-sleep view and the traditional Protestant view comes down to this.

From the Soul-Sleep view, at death, the material body and the conscious immaterial part of a person, both die and go into the ground, unaware, unconscious, and both parts completely dead until the resurrection.

From the non-Soul Sleep view, that Protestants hold, at death, only the material body goes to the ground. The immaterial part of us goes to be in the presences of our Lord; to be with Him until the resurrection; when our bodies are raised incorruptible and glorified, just like Christ's 3 days after Calvary.

Jesus is our pattern, and we following Him in death and resurrection. (His 3 days is just a tad longer for the rest of us).

Alyssa S
May 5th 2008, 11:39 PM
Alyssa,
Our bodies are in the grave at death. They stay there until the resurrection. Simple.
Our dead bodies in the grave don't praise, don't do any working, nor planning, nor have any knowledge or wisdom. The dust truly returns to dust; awaiting the resurrection.

When that old corrupt body will be raised in like manner to Jesus' own dead body.

Only Jesus body, lay in the grave.
His immaterial spirit, His untouchable soul that makes up his thoughts, knowledge, wisdom, memories, compassion, love, and mercy never ceased to exist. Was not wiped from the scope of existence.

Nor do I believe ours do either.

Fundamentally, what I see as the difference between the soul-sleep view and the traditional Protestant view comes down to this.

From the Soul-Sleep view, at death, the material body and the conscious immaterial part of a person, both die and go into the ground, unaware, unconscious, and both parts completely dead until the resurrection.

From the non-Soul Sleep view, that Protestants hold, at death, only the material body goes to the ground. The immaterial part of us goes to be in the presences of our Lord; to be with Him until the resurrection; when our bodies are raised incorruptible and glorified, just like Christ's 3 days after Calvary.

Jesus is our pattern, and we following Him in death and resurrection. (His 3 days is just a tad longer for the rest of us).

Thanks for your opinion on it, David.

Personally, I have not studied the "Soul-Sleep view." I do not know exactly what these views are. I am simply relaying on here what I have studied in my bible, not what has been taught to me. My church believes you go to heaven when you die, and my church also believes in a pre-trib rapture as do most Protestant churches teach. In fact, all three churches that I have been a member of for the past 11 yrs have these same beliefs. I radically disagree with the pre-trib rapture doctrine and I am beginning to disagree with the other popular mainstream belief since no one can present Scriptures that harmonize with the Scriptures I have posted on here. Simple. :)

I have kindly asked you several times to present certain Scriptures that reveal WHEN the wicked go to torment and have also asked OTHER questions, but you have only given your opinion to a couple. I respect your opinion, David, and I greatly appreciate your time, but I cannot form my opinion off of yours. I need Scripture to back it up and I have yet to see any. :sad:

I do NOT believe the soul dies that rests in the grave, like you say is the "Soul Sleep View." So I guess you can't put me in their category. From Scripture, it appears the soul sleeps in Jesus...not dies. There is nowhere we can go to escape the presence of the Lord.

Psalm 139:7 "Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your PRESENCE? If I go up to the heavens, you are there. If I make my bed in the DEPTHS, (SHEOL-GRAVE) you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast."

Firstfruits
May 6th 2008, 10:27 AM
Alyssa,
Our bodies are in the grave at death. They stay there until the resurrection. Simple.
Our dead bodies in the grave don't praise, don't do any working, nor planning, nor have any knowledge or wisdom. The dust truly returns to dust; awaiting the resurrection.

When that old corrupt body will be raised in like manner to Jesus' own dead body.

Only Jesus body, lay in the grave.
His immaterial spirit, His untouchable soul that makes up his thoughts, knowledge, wisdom, memories, compassion, love, and mercy never ceased to exist. Was not wiped from the scope of existence.

Nor do I believe ours do either.

Fundamentally, what I see as the difference between the soul-sleep view and the traditional Protestant view comes down to this.

From the Soul-Sleep view, at death, the material body and the conscious immaterial part of a person, both die and go into the ground, unaware, unconscious, and both parts completely dead until the resurrection.

From the non-Soul Sleep view, that Protestants hold, at death, only the material body goes to the ground. The immaterial part of us goes to be in the presences of our Lord; to be with Him until the resurrection; when our bodies are raised incorruptible and glorified, just like Christ's 3 days after Calvary.

Jesus is our pattern, and we following Him in death and resurrection. (His 3 days is just a tad longer for the rest of us).

Hi David,

With regards to the following man has not been given a soul but is in fact a living soul;

Gen 2:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

1 Cor 15:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

This is the same for all creatures;

Rev 16:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Would you agree that we are all living souls until God takes his breath away and we therefore die? would our dead souls/bodies not then go to the grave as did Jesus, and all that have died?

Remember it is written that Adam/man was made a living soul, not given a living soul, unless it is believed that God put a soul within a soul, however that is not what is written.

Gen 2:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

1 Cor 15:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


Is there any scripture that states otherwise?


I too have never studied "soul sleep" and was not aware of of it until it was mentioned by Eric, so if what is written is what is called "soul sleep" then what we have been given, from the law of Moses and the new testament is that we are all living souls until God takes his breath/spirit, and then our living souls are no longer alive.

Is what they taught therefore not gospel/word of God?

David Taylor
May 6th 2008, 03:47 PM
I have kindly asked you several times to present certain Scriptures that reveal WHEN the wicked go to torment and have also asked OTHER questions, but you have only given your opinion to a couple. I respect your opinion, David, and I greatly appreciate your time, but I cannot form my opinion off of yours. I need Scripture to back it up and I have yet to see any.

Sorry that I don't seem to be convey clearly enough, from the scriptures, the Protestant perspective Alyssa. It really isn't from a lack of trying though. I just went back and reviewed my posts in this thread, and of the 9 posts prior to this one I have made, I have either quoted or referenced/discussed (from you or FF) 33 different passages concerning this topic.

That's alot of scripture and opinioned explanation to support it.

Evidently, though, I am not presenting it clearly enough in the previous posts, so I will make an attempt to summarize, from the scriptures; and keep opinionated commentary brief. See if this is of any more value; if not, then I have pretty much exhausted my time with you, and will just have to accept the idea that we are going to remain at different perspectives on this topic.

Here goes.

Givens:
The scripture uses the term 'soul':


sometimes to denote the material body(Psa 7:2, I Acts 2:31, Pet 3:20) ,
sometimes to denote the spirit/body unit (Gen 2:7, Num 31:28, Acts 27:37), and
sometimes just the immaterial spirit(I Kings 17:21, Luke 10:27, Rev 6:9).

So useage of the word 'soul' is only understandable based on inner and outer context; (context within the specific inner-passage, and context harmonizing with the outer context of all scripture regarding its use).


Summary:


1) After death, the material body goes to the grave, and is unknowing, unaware, and dead as a doornail.

Psa 16:15 "my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave"

Job 21:32 "Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb."

Isaiah 38:18 "For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth."

Matthew 27:59 "And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, And laid it in his own new tomb"

Acts 8:2 "And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him."


2) After death, the immaterial spirit does not go to the grave with the body unconscious and unaware.

Genesis 35:18 "And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died)"

I Kings 17:21 "And Elijah stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived."

Psalms 49:14 "Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. "

Psalms 90:10 As for the days of our life, they contain seventy years, Or if due to strength, eighty years, Yet their pride is but labor and sorrow; For soon it is gone and we fly away.

Ecclessiastes 3:19 "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? "

Luke 8:53 And they laughed Jesus to scorn, knowing that she was dead. And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat."

Luke 23:46 "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

Acts 7:58 "And cast Stephen out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Philippians 1:21 "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you."


3) The immaterial spirit of a person is not solely unconscious, unaware 'breath', but includes our conscious awareness that God forms within our body.

Job 20:3 I have heard the check of my reproach, and the spirit of my understanding causeth me to answer.

Zechariah 12:1 "Thus declares the Lord who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him"

Isaiah 26:9 "at night my soul longs for Thee, indeed my spirit within me seeks Thee diligently."

Matthew 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Mark 2:8 "and immediately Jesus, perceiving in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves said to them, Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts?"

Luke 1:47 "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour."

1 Corinthians 2:11 "For who among men knows the thoughts of a man, except the spirit of the man, which is in him?"

I Corinthians 5:5 "for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. "

I Corinthians 6:20 "For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."




4) The immaterial soul of a person after death, is not unconscious (only their body)

2 Samuel 28:3 "Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land. Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel"

Ezekiel 32:21 "The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword."

Isaiah 14:9 "Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? "

Isaiah 53:12 "Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

Mark 9:4 "And there appeared unto them Elijah with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus."

John 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death." Mark 12:26 "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living"

Luke 16:22 "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto (the thief), Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." John 19:30 "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. "

Revelation 5:3 "And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon."

Revelation 15:2 "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints."

Revelation 18:20 "Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her."

Revelation 19:1 "And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God"

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands"




5) The immaterial soul of the wicked go to torment

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

Isaiah 33:14 "The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? "

Isaiah 66:23 "And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

II Peter 2:2 "And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness"

Jude 1:7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Jude 1:8 "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities."




6) The immaterial soul of the just go to the Lord's presence

Psalms 16:10 "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore."

Psalms 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Psalms 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth? To the end that my glory may sing praise to thee, and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto thee for ever."

Psalms 41:12 "And as for me, thou upholdest me in mine integrity, and settest me before thy face for ever."

Psalms 61:7 "He shall abide before God for ever"

Psalms 73:23 "Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand. Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever."

Psalms 132:13 "For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it. "

Luke 23:46 "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

Acts 7:58 "And cast Stephen out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Philippians 1:21 "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you."

John 11:26 "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

Ephesians 2:5 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"

Hebrews 12:23 "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect"

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

Alyssa S
May 6th 2008, 06:41 PM
Hi David!

First I would like to say that I DO have a lot of respect for you and agree with you on many things, as I have read many of your posts through the months. I don't know if that means anything to you, but I at least want you to know that I DO respect you.




[quote=David Taylor;1628873]Sorry that I don't seem to be convey clearly enough, from the scriptures, the Protestant perspective Alyssa. It really isn't from a lack of trying though. I just went back and reviewed my posts in this thread, and of the 9 posts prior to this one I have made, I have either quoted or referenced/discussed (from you or FF) 33 different passages concerning this topic.

That's alot of scripture and opinioned explanation to support it.

And I greatly appreciate that David, but that was not what I was saying.

Originally Posted by Alyssa S http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1628248#post1628248)

I have kindly asked you several times to present certain Scriptures that reveal WHEN the wicked go to torment and have also asked OTHER questions, but you have only given your opinion to a couple. I respect your opinion, David, and I greatly appreciate your time, but I cannot form my opinion off of yours. I need Scripture to back it up and I have yet to see any.


I am not saying that I have yet to see ANY SCRIPTURES AT ALL. I am saying that you have not responded to FF's or my questions regarding certain verses that we presented. I recognize that you have offered Scriptures earlier in the post, but you have not addressed the questions we have had that will help us all to fairly discern the Word of God. And perhaps it is something that you have just overlooked. I understand that you are busy.



See if this is of any more value; if not, then I have pretty much exhausted my time with you, and will just have to accept the idea that we are going to remain at different perspectives on this topic.


But I would hope that you wouldn't depart from this thread until you help me and FF to understand the verses we have asked you about. Afterall, you could be right!! I simply want to know the TRUTH. And there are some problematic verses that need to be addressed. If you don't feel it's something you want to continue in, then fine, I will respect that. :)

I will repost our questions in the following post since it is quite lengthy. Forgive me! :blush:

God bless! And thank you!
Alyssa

Alyssa S
May 6th 2008, 07:21 PM
Hi David! Here are the questions that I mentioned in my previous post that FirstFruit and I had asked but that you hadn't answered. Again, I recognize that you could have overlooked them, and so I want to be sensitive to that! :)

These questions are simply to determine if the soul and spirit are the SAME or is the spirit the breath of life that departs ALL living things at death, and the soul is the mind, will and emotions? IF they are the same (soul and spirit) then this would say that the soul returns to the Father. According to Eccl 12:7. ALL breath of life (spirit) returns to God. And Job 12:10 states that the breath is in ALL.

But I do not believe the soul and spirit are the same, because we know the wicked are not with God in heaven nor will they ever be. But I think the Scripture is clear that ALL breath (spirit), including the wicked, returns to God. There were no exceptions in this verse. It seems to be that ALL spirit (breath of life) returns to the Father, and the soul lies in the grave to await the Resurrection that Paul, Job and David so longed and hoped for.

1.) (Alyssa) Post #69



The Spirit doesn't ascend or descend? Then how come the Scriptures tell us differently?

Matt 3:16 "...At that moment he saw the Spirit (pneuma) of God DESCENDING like a dove and lighting on him."

John 1:32 "Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit (pneuma) DESCENDING like a dove from heaven, and it remained on him."

2.) (FF) Post # 70



If the spirit does not ascend or descend, then how did his spirit ascend at calvery?

You responded with your opinion about spirit being immaterial, but didn’t address the Scripture that says it descends and ascends.

3.) (FF) Post # 73

Eccles 12:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7)
(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7)
Is our soul/spirit the spirit of God that returns to him?

(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7)
4.) (Alyssa) Post # 74


Eccles 12:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7)


WHO'S spirit/breath of life? Only believers or ALL LIVING THINGS?

Job 12:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind. (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10)
(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10)
The Scripture seems pretty clear to me that the spirit/breath of life is in ALL/EVERY living thing.

Don't forget about the wicked... because they have spirits/breath of life too.... and I have a pretty good idea they aren't in Heaven. But yet, Eccl 12:7 tells us that even THEIR spirits/breath of life will return to Heaven. Surely this can't be their soul too??

5.) (Alyssa) Post #75



Originally Posted by David Taylor
When it's movement is described, metaphor is used to convey what is occurring, that otherwise couldn't be conveyed.

Then what did John "see?" Surely he witnessed something or he wouldn't have recorded it.
Matt 3:16 "...At that moment he saw the Spirit (pneuma) of God DESCENDING like a dove and lighting on him."

John 1:32 "Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit (pneuma) DESCENDING like a dove from heaven, and it remained on him."


Jesus body was raised, and physically ascended into the heavens as the apostles witnessed.(according to the Scriptures)

Agreed. But wouldn't you agree that Jesus is also SPIRIT? So was it only his body that was raised?


6.) (Alyssa) Post #80

I once again asked your belief on spirit/breath of life and ALL LIVING THINGS having this spirit, and to explain what happens to the wicked. You didn’t explain Scripturally, but said “The wicked go to fiery torment.”

7.) (Alyssa) Post #82

You failed to answer a few of the questions that FirstFruit and I asked. Perhaps you overlooked it. If the spirit/breath of life is in ALL living things...and the spirit/breath of life of ALL living things returns unto God who gave it, then wouldn't the "WICKED" have to be included in the "ALL THINGS" category? Doesn't this verse reveal that the spirit of the wicked returns unto God who gave it? I don't see any exceptions in this verse? Am I missing something?

Do you believe this next verse is true?
Job 12:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind. (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10)
(http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10)
Did you and Matthew94 not argue that spirit and soul are one in the same?

Here is my opinion... I think the spirit and soul are very intimately related. But I still think they are different. Because we know that the WICKED will not inherit the Kingdom of God and we KNOW that the WICKED are not in Heaven with God right now.

1 Thess 5:23 "May your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Again, David, IF the soul and spirit are the SAME, and IF when "the spirit RETURNS to the Father" means that THIS is the soul returning TOO, then that would HAVE to include the wicked. And that just isn't possible. ALL SPIRITS RETURN TO THE FATHER. The spirit is THE BREATH OF LIFE. I don't see how this is referencing the SOUL.

How do we deal with this particular problem? I truly want to know. I am not looking to win an argument. I am looking for TRUTH, because I am not completely sold either way. But I am definitely leaning in one direction quite a bit more because of the overwhelming Scripture.

Too... if what you say is true...that the wicked are currently in fiery conscious torment, then how come this next verse implies that no-one will be judged until the Last Day?
John 12:48 "There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will CONDEMN him at the LAST DAY."

If they are not judged and condemned till the Last Day, how can they possibly be in conscious torment RIGHT NOW?

8.) (FF) Post # 84

Are there any scriptures that state contrary to Christs declaration regarding ascension?
How would you explain the following?

9.) (Alyssa) Post #87

but can you tell us how you reconcile Eccl 12:7 and Job 12:10 that says the spirit of ALL living things will return to the Father with the belief that the WICKED are somehow excluded from this? I'd greatly appreciate it. Isn't the wicked part of the "ALL living things?"

YOU DID respond to this… but you still haven’t given Scripture to show what happens to the wicked’s breath of life. ALL LIVING THINGS HAVE THE BREATH OF LIFE….and ALL BREATH OF LIFE RETURNS TO THE FATHER.

10.) (Alyssa) Post # 90

But doesn't the Scripture say that the spirit/breath of life of ALL mankind returns to God? Again, there were no exceptions in this verse. (Eccl 12:7) I think "ALL" means exactly what it says.. "ALL."

Can you provide the Scripture that says where the wicked's spirit/breath of life will go at DEATH? I realize there are Scriptures that talk about the wicked in fiery torment, but I am talking about the actual Scripture that reveals where they will go AT THE TIME OF THEIR DEATH.

I have asked this before, but I will ask again: If the wicked are currently in fiery conscious torment, then how come this next verse implies that no-one will be judged until the Last Day?

John 12:48 "There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will CONDEMN him at the LAST DAY."

If they are not judged and condemned till the Last Day, how can they possibly be in conscious torment RIGHT NOW?

So are you saying that you do not believe this verse is completely true?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. "

The OT saints did not go to heaven when they died....but their spirit still returned to the Father....where was their SOUL?
The NT saints (supposedly) go to heaven when they die... and their spirit ALSO returns to the Father. But at what point did the soul and spirit become the same thing? The Scripture still reads the same for NT saints. Jesus and Peter both breathed their last when they gave up their SPIRIT.

If we believe that the spirit/breath of life of Job, David, Abraham and all the other OT saints returned to the Father at death, then has anything changed for those of us who live and die today? Doesn't our spirit return to the Father when we die? Yet somehow, even though the Scripture reads the same "I commit my spirit unto you," we believe this means that this includes the soul too and we are immediately in heaven.

Would you mind listing those Scriptures that reveal where the wicked goes at the moment of death that shows contrast of the righteous with Eccl 12?

In Post #91, you responded with what you believe to be true, but you did not address any of these questions with Scripture. And most of them you did not answer.

Thanks!
God bless,
Alyssa :)

David Taylor
May 6th 2008, 08:44 PM
How would you explain the following?

Eccles 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Eccles 3:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) All go unto one place; All are of the dust, and All turn to dust again.

Eccles 6:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

Eccles 3:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, (ascends) and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

These verses are showing two things:

1) All creatures die, and their bodies return to the dust.
2) Humankind, which is made in the image of God, continues on. The destiny of humankind following their mortal death, is described in the verses from post 94-5 and 94-6.





One person who should know has stated the following;

Jn 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jn 20:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Acts 2:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,


And these verses are true. No human body has ascended to Heaven; in each of those verses. Jesus now(several weeks after calvary), has/did ascended bodily into Heaven...David's body is still in the ground; his body still waits to be called forth from the dust of the grave; which will happen on resurrection day.




Gen 2:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

1 Cor 15:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Are there any scriptures that state contrary to Christs declaration regarding ascension?


Not that I am aware of. When Christ spoke those words, His body had not yet ascended into Heaven; but was about to. Every other body that has ever lived, is either still living on the earth today, or awaiting resurrection within the grave. As for the spirit/soul of those who have died, their present abode is not the grave with the body; but is explained in the verses of post 94-5 and 94-6.

David Taylor
May 6th 2008, 08:46 PM
Q1-2.
Partially answered in post 72.
To expand on what they saw, 'they saw what appeared to them to resemble a dove'. Since Spirit is immaterial "spirit hath not flesh and bones Luk39", we know it wasn't a dove; but however the Spirit chose to be manifested, it appeared to be a dove for their viewing edification. Sometimes the Spirit is also described metaphorically as a rushing wind; again, immaterial spirit is not wind, but wind is likewise used to describe what otherwise is undescribable to us.

Q3.
God is sovereign over all life. It is by His sovereign choice, when life is given and taken. Without life, all of creation returns to dust. Job addresses this well here:

Job 10:9 "Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again? Hast thou not poured me out as milk, and curdled me like cheese? Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews. Thou hast granted me life"

In further evaluation of this passage (ecc 12:7), it really isn't discussing the state of the spirit/soul of men and their post-life destiny; but rather; the fragileness of life; or as the preacher from verse 8 states, it is all vanity. If you want to further expand specifically, on the after-life destinies of humankind (both the good and the bad), that was addressed in the scriptures from post 94, section 5 and 6 verses.

Q4.


Believers afterlife destiny answered in Post 94-6 verses.
Unbelievers afterlife destiny answer in Post 94-5 verses.
Animals afterlife destiny answered in Post 94-2 (Psa 49 & Ec 3) verses.

Q5.
Partially answered above, in first answer regarding the dove.
Expanding on the question asked if it was only Jesus' body that was raised, Jesus Himself answers this in Luke 24:37 "But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And Jesus said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. "

Q6.
Answered in Post 94-5 verses.

Q7.
Answered in Post 94-5 verses; and expanded here to cover the last comment. The final day of Judgment is on the Last Day; and in that day, all the dead will be raised and stand before the Lord to be given their final pronouncement before all mankind as witnesses.

Revelation 20:11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

Romans 14:10 "we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. "

Q8.
Answered in post 97.

Q9.
Answered in post 94-5.

Q10.
Another re-statement of questions 3-4, answered above.


Hope this helps you. If not, let's try going one question at a time, from this list of 10, removing the reduncancies, and attempt to address them individually; so nothing else falls through the cracks.

Alyssa S
May 6th 2008, 09:52 PM
Does anybody know the answer to this question?

According to Scripture (Heb 11:13, 11:39), the OT saints did not go to heaven when they died....BUT... their spirit (breath of life) still returned to the Father....
Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. "
Where was their SOUL? It wasn't in heaven. It had to be SOMEWHERE.

The NT saints (supposedly) go to heaven when they die... and their spirit ALSO returns to the Father.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. "

But at what point did the soul and spirit become the same thing? The Scripture verse still reads the same for NT saints. Jesus and Peter both breathed their last when they gave up their SPIRIT/BREATH OF LIFE. When Job, Abraham, David and everyone else pre-Christ breathed their LAST...they TOO gave up their SPIRIT/BREATH OF LIFE. Nothing has changed. So how are we making this Scripture read something that it clearly doesn't? The same SPIRIT/BREATH IF LIFE that returned to the Father in 1500 BC is the same SPIRIT/BREATH OF LIFE that returns to the Father in 2010 AD.

It is the Breath of Life!! Oxygen...Wind...Air...Breath!!! That's how Strongs defines it. That's how Vines defines it. And it sure seems that's how Scripture defines it.

David Taylor
May 7th 2008, 01:55 AM
Does anybody know the answer to this question?

According to Scripture (Heb 11:13, 11:39), the OT saints did not go to heaven when they died....
When Job, Abraham, David and everyone else pre-Christ breathed their LAST...they TOO gave up their SPIRIT/BREATH OF LIFE. Nothing has changed. So how are we making this Scripture read something that it clearly doesn't?

Yes, there bodies "breathed their last...and died".

However, their immaterial aspect...their conscious and aware "soul" continued on as their dead body decomposed in the grave, awaiting the resurrection.

1400 years after Abraham died,
John 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death." Mark 12:26 "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living"

Luke 16:22 "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

1200 years after Moses died and 1000 years after Elijah died,
Mark 9:4 "And there appeared unto them Elijah with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus."

Many of OT Saints "souls" went somewhere at death, besides with their body in the grave.

Genesis 35:18 "And it came to pass, as her(Rachel) soul was in departing, (for she died)"

I Kings 17:21 "And Elijah stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived."

Psalms 49:14 "Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. "



Psalms 90:10 As for the days of our life, they contain seventy years, Or if due to strength, eighty years, Yet their pride is but labor and sorrow; For soon it is gone and we fly away.

Ecclessiastes 3:19 "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? "

Psalms 16:10 "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore."

Psalms 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Psalms 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth? To the end that my glory may sing praise to thee, and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto thee for ever."

Psalms 41:12 "And as for me, thou upholdest me in mine integrity, and settest me before thy face for ever."

Psalms 61:7 "He shall abide before God for ever"

Psalms 73:23 "Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand. Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever."

Psalms 132:13 "For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it."

Firstfruits
May 7th 2008, 08:07 AM
These verses are showing two things:

1) All creatures die, and their bodies return to the dust.
2) Humankind, which is made in the image of God, continues on. The destiny of humankind following their mortal death, is described in the verses from post 94-5 and 94-6.




And these verses are true. No human body has ascended to Heaven; in each of those verses. Jesus now(several weeks after calvary), has/did ascended bodily into Heaven...David's body is still in the ground; his body still waits to be called forth from the dust of the grave; which will happen on resurrection day.




Not that I am aware of. When Christ spoke those words, His body had not yet ascended into Heaven; but was about to. Every other body that has ever lived, is either still living on the earth today, or awaiting resurrection within the grave. As for the spirit/soul of those who have died, their present abode is not the grave with the body; but is explained in the verses of post 94-5 and 94-6.

Remember it is written that Adam/man was made a living soul, not given a living soul, unless it is believed that God put a soul within a soul, however that is not what is written.

Gen 2:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

1 Cor 15:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


Is there any scripture that states otherwise?

From the following did Jesus expect his soul to die and go hell/the grave?

Mt 26:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

Mk 14:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

Jn 12:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

Acts 2:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

When Jesus put on flesh, did he not then become a living soul with the breath/spirit of God in him?

Was it not the breath/spirit of God that returned to God when his living soul died?

Eccles 12:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=21&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7)

We are living souls!!!!!

David Taylor
May 7th 2008, 12:59 PM
Remember it is written that Adam/man was made a living soul, not given a living soul, unless it is believed that God put a soul within a soul, however that is not what is written.


Is there any scripture that states otherwise?


Sure there is. Enough scripture, when it is all examined in context; to realize that the two verses you cited; are showing that when the body(of dust of the ground) and soul are united, then a human becomes living.

Being 'living' requires both a both and a soul on this mortal, earthly realm.

James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead"

Exodus 30:15 The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.

The people 'have souls'.

Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. "

The soul belongs to the person ("your soul"). That part of the person is atonement for.

Job 16:4 "I also could speak as ye do: if your soul were in my soul's stead, I could heap up words against you, and shake mine head at you."

Job spoke of the idea of his soul being exchanged with another, knowing it was a part of him, not his entire being.

Job 10:1 "My soul is weary of my life; I will leave my complaint upon myself; I will speak in the bitterness of my soul. "

Job speaks of his soul being something he posesses.

Ezekiel 24:21 "Speak unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will profane my sanctuary, the excellency of your strength, the desire of your eyes, and that which your soul pitieth"

Ezekiel realized that the soul was just another component of a person, along with their strength and the eyes.


Psalms 42:2 "My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God? My tears have been my meat day and night, while they continually say unto me, Where is thy God? When I remember these things, I pour out my soul in me"

The Psalmist knew there was a soul within him.

Psalms 49:14 "Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. "

The die and remain in the grave; yet the soul of this man is redeemed from the grave and received unto God.


Psalms 121:7 "The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul. The LORD shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore. "

David knew that the Lord would preserve his soul for evermore. (Even though in other places David also knew that his body would be given to the grave and rot away).

Ezekiel 3:19 "Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. "

Ezekiel plainly explains that the soul is delivered, even when one dies from iniquity.

Luke 12:19 "And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God. And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body"

Jesus himself, makes very clear distinction between the body and the soul here; and shows the value of this man's soul above all material things, even his own body.

22 John 1:2 "Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth."

John shows the distinction between the soul and the body; where the body is failing in health; yet the person's soul prospers.


Many verses showing each man has a soul that is different than their body.

Firstfruits
May 7th 2008, 01:36 PM
Sure there is. Enough scripture, when it is all examined in context; to realize that the two verses you cited; are showing that when the body(of dust of the ground) and soul are united, then a human becomes living.

Being 'living' requires both a both and a soul on this mortal, earthly realm.

James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead"

Exodus 30:15 The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.

The people 'have souls'.

Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. "

The soul belongs to the person ("your soul"). That part of the person is atonement for.

Job 16:4 "I also could speak as ye do: if your soul were in my soul's stead, I could heap up words against you, and shake mine head at you."

Job spoke of the idea of his soul being exchanged with another, knowing it was a part of him, not his entire being.

Job 10:1 "My soul is weary of my life; I will leave my complaint upon myself; I will speak in the bitterness of my soul. "

Job speaks of his soul being something he posesses.

Ezekiel 24:21 "Speak unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will profane my sanctuary, the excellency of your strength, the desire of your eyes, and that which your soul pitieth"

Ezekiel realized that the soul was just another component of a person, along with their strength and the eyes.


Psalms 42:2 "My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God? My tears have been my meat day and night, while they continually say unto me, Where is thy God? When I remember these things, I pour out my soul in me"

The Psalmist knew there was a soul within him.

Psalms 49:14 "Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. "

The die and remain in the grave; yet the soul of this man is redeemed from the grave and received unto God.


Psalms 121:7 "The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul. The LORD shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore. "

David knew that the Lord would preserve his soul for evermore. (Even though in other places David also knew that his body would be given to the grave and rot away).

Ezekiel 3:19 "Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. "

Ezekiel plainly explains that the soul is delivered, even when one dies from iniquity.

Luke 12:19 "And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God. And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body"

Jesus himself, makes very clear distinction between the body and the soul here; and shows the value of this man's soul above all material things, even his own body.

22 John 1:2 "Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth."

John shows the distinction between the soul and the body; where the body is failing in health; yet the person's soul prospers.


Many verses showing each man has a soul that is different than their body.

Thanks David.

I understand what you are saying, however when Jesus' soul went to the grave until his resurrection did his soul die when Gods spirit/breath returned to God as there is no mention of Jesus being made alive until the third day. What happens to us as livng souls when Gods breath spirit goes back to God as in the case of Jesus?

Again let me ask do we have two souls, knowing that we are made living souls?

Did God give us another soul other than when he made us living souls?

David Taylor
May 7th 2008, 01:53 PM
Thanks David.

I understand what you are saying, however when Jesus' soul went to the grave until his resurrection did his soul die when Gods spirit/breath returned to God as there is no mention of Jesus being made alive until the third day. What happens to us as livng souls when Gods breath spirit goes back to God as in the case of Jesus?

Again let me ask do we have two souls, knowing that we are made living souls?

Did God give us another soul other than when he made us living souls?

Jesus' soul did not go to the grave. In the Psalm verse, and the later NT quoting of the Psalm verse; the word 'soul' is being used to describe the body going to the grave and the body not rotting.

As explained earlier, the word 'soul' is used differently in different places. So Jesus (immaterial) 'soul' did not go to the grave during those three days at all.....just his (body). Jesus' immaterial soul went where? The place described in the 94-6 post verses. Where the Father is.

And no, there is one soul, not two souls. However, the word 'soul' is used in more than one way in scripture; and that seems to be the point that keeps crossing you up on this discussion and explanation.

When we die, if the person was an unbeliever; it's destination is as described in post 94-5 verses.
If the person is a believer, it's destination is as described in posts 94-6 verses.

Each person has one (immaterial soul); and it remains within/attached/associated with their body during their entire life, until the death of their body; when the body alone goes to the grave; and the (immaterial soul) leaves the body.


Look guys, I think this thread has really went about as far as it can go. Just about every angle and perspective has been asked and answered, and re-asked and re-answered. This thread is now beginning for the 3rd or 4th time, to re-hash the same things over and over.

Stepping aside from being just a member who has been involved in this thread, and realizing that as a moderator of this forum; I also have some responsibility as well; it is becoming evident from the intent and guidelines of this WR forum, that this thread has really run its course; and to continue; would be going beyond the line of explaining a WR doctrine (from the mainstream Protestant perspective); and into the area of advancing and perpetuating a WR doctrine.

I truly belief due diligence has been given to the question, the topic, and the answers; and we should let this thread retire; and let the readers interested in the teaching of "soul-sleep" study it as they may desire; but not continue to re-hash the same questions; nor allow for any further advancing of it to the detriment of the intent of this subforum and board.

If on a personal level, you really feel like you have more to say, feel welcomed to start a new thread in the 'Chat to Moderators' forum; but as a public point of discussion; this thread is ready to retire.

Thanks!