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Matt 13:44
Apr 24th 2008, 01:23 PM
If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. (1 Corinthians 15:19)

The term this life seems to imply we will or have lived more than one life. I don't believe Chrisitianity supports the idea of reincarnation but this passage seems to stongly suggest it. Any thoughts?

9Marksfan
Apr 24th 2008, 01:55 PM
Paul is clearly speaking about the life we will have when we get our resurrection bodies - it will be so different and so much better than "this life", because there will be no sin and no Devil to tempt us and destroy things - instead, Christ will be all in all! :pp:pp:pp

IamBill
Apr 24th 2008, 02:22 PM
Or perhaps that this life is merely the beginning. When I contemplate "eternity", I realize that we here/now, are hardly in the womb in comparison.
In others words, "this life" (in flesh), is Not what it's all about.

9Marksfan
Apr 24th 2008, 02:28 PM
Or perhaps that this life is merely the beginning. When I contemplate "eternity", I realize that we here/now, are hardly in the womb in comparison.
In others words, "this life" (in flesh), is Not what it's all about.

Amen! C S Lewis rightly called it "Shadowlands" - the full brightness of the noonday sun awaits us! :)

moonglow
Apr 24th 2008, 03:00 PM
If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. (1 Corinthians 15:19)

The term this life seems to imply we will or have lived more than one life. I don't believe Chrisitianity supports the idea of reincarnation but this passage seems to stongly suggest it. Any thoughts?

What does the bible say about our next life? Isn't our next life to be in Heaven or hell?

When you read John 3:16 what does that mean to you? For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever shall believe in Him will have everlasting life.

We know we die...so how can we have everlasting life? Because the 'life' isn't given in our human bodies...but in our spirit. Our spirit lives everlasting.

Be very careful in singling out one verse and trying to built a whole idea on it. Always read them in content, comparing them with other verses having to do with the same thing and the bible as a whole. And remember, how the writers expressed themselves then is not how we express ourselves now. It can be easy to assume too much over a word or two.

God bless

Friend of Jesus
Apr 24th 2008, 03:24 PM
We know we die...so how can we have everlasting life? Because the 'life' isn't given in our human bodies...but in our spirit. Our spirit lives everlasting.



The spirit does live on but it says specifically in the Bible that we will have new bodies given to us, new bodies that our spirit will live in- and yes, this is refering to when we are in heaven.

moonglow
Apr 24th 2008, 03:37 PM
The spirit does live on but it says specifically in the Bible that we will have new bodies given to us, new bodies that our spirit will live in- and yes, this is refering to when we are in heaven.

True...but we won't be reincarnated to live here on earth again...I mean who would want too? To me that would be a form of hell. Having to come back over and over again. Being born, growing up...having to go to school over and over again! Going through the teenager years again...once is hard enough! Going through old age again...blah. That would be cruel to have us live again and again on earth in these human bodies. I never understood why anyone wanted to believe this stuff to start with.

God Bless

Revinius
Apr 24th 2008, 03:42 PM
reincarnation is a hindu term and is a painful unwanted process of repetitive successions of living with the goal of ending the cycle and returning to Brahman. The Bible is not compatible with the process of reincarnation.

What i think you refer to is resurrection. ;)

IamBill
Apr 24th 2008, 03:58 PM
Amen! C S Lewis rightly called it "Shadowlands" - the full brightness of the noonday sun awaits us! :)

:) You know, I have not yet read his stuff, but This alone-
"You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body"
makes so much sense of my experiences that I ask you to recommend to me my first.

Friend of Jesus
Apr 24th 2008, 04:02 PM
True...but we won't be reincarnated to live here on earth again...I mean who would want too?

God Bless

That's why I said "when we are in heaven" - of course we don't live on THIS earth again (although there is a new heaven and a new earth which will join together).

moonglow
Apr 24th 2008, 04:24 PM
That's why I said "when we are in heaven" - of course we don't live on THIS earth again (although there is a new heaven and a new earth which will join together).

Yea, and I agreed with you..sorry for the confusion...I quoted you because I agreed...lol...but then I went on referring to the OP. I have actually seen Christians on here fall into this view of reincarnation over two or three verses taken out of content in the bible. :( It just baffled me as to WHY, why in the world would anyone WANT to believe in it? It would be such a nightmare. Image all the possibilities...being born to a family that beat you to death at age six months..only to come back again to maybe being born in Africa where you could starve to death by age five, only to come back again to being born in a war zone and be blown up, shot to death before age ten, to be born again to a rich family in the UK that sends you off to boarding school and you never see your parents and live a life of meaningless...though no money worries,...actually making it to be an old man (unless you kill yourself before then abusing drugs, drinking or shoot yourself because life is empty) to being born again in China to dig in the hard cold earth to grown what you can to eat...being born in an urban inner cities where life is gangs, and violence and your future is nothing but prison or death.

I mean the ODDS you would actually have a normal good life are low in this world today where 80% of the world's population sleeps on the floor because they have no beds. No money, and more children die from disease and lack of food and war.

Why would anyone want to even consider such a horrible idea in the first place? I would almost think hell would be better then this.

God bless

Servant89
Apr 24th 2008, 11:28 PM
It is written:

Heb 9:27 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

No recycling!!! No second opportunities !!!

Roelof
Apr 25th 2008, 08:26 AM
According to the Bible, we have only one life on earth:

And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment, (Heb 9:27, NKJV)

Hawkins
Apr 25th 2008, 09:01 AM
If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. (1 Corinthians 15:19)

The term this life seems to imply we will or have lived more than one life. I don't believe Chrisitianity supports the idea of reincarnation but this passage seems to stongly suggest it. Any thoughts?

There is not an Almighty God in some religions, so reincarnation is created to "keep things running automatically". In those religions things are running very well automatically, yet they failed to explain who created the "automatic mechanism".

Reincarnation runs automatically based upon a cause and effect theory, yet reincarnation itself becomes an effect without any cause. So people will not say that because of "???" that reincarnation existed. They can only say that "you believe it or not".

That's why those religions remain as ...just religions. :)

Added that Christianity is a religion goes straight towards faith and is all about faith, while some other religions are nothing about faith yet you just need faith (Christianity) to believe in. :lol:

Servant89
Apr 26th 2008, 12:12 AM
<<If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. (1 Corinthians 15:19)>>

The issue of that chapter of Corinthians is the resurrection and the point is that if there is no after death life (in eternity), we are a pathetic group because this business of turning the othe cheek has no rewards after death. The problem is that too many people judge God on what they see happening here and without eternity as part of the equation, life here makes no sense.

But there is no recycling. We are appointed to die once. That is why I do not believe in life in other planets because Jesus died once for all.

Shalom

stillsearchin7
Apr 26th 2008, 03:57 AM
Actually, reincarnation is all throughout the scriptures if you look closely, and there are numerous scriptures to support it. For example, the first Chapter and first couples of verses of Matthew.

Peace.

Athanasius
Apr 26th 2008, 04:09 AM
Actually, reincarnation is all throughout the scriptures if you look closely, and there are numerous scriptures to support it. For example, the first Chapter and first couples of verses of Matthew.

Peace.

Verses, please?
Re-incarnation isn't in the Bible, else I'm C.S. Lewis and you better watch out ;)

Revinius
Apr 26th 2008, 05:54 AM
Actually, reincarnation is all throughout the scriptures if you look closely, and there are numerous scriptures to support it. For example, the first Chapter and first couples of verses of Matthew.

Peace.

Indeed, show us the scriptures. I hope you arent some new-ager trying to infiltrate these boards :P

stillsearchin7
Apr 26th 2008, 04:42 PM
Matthew 1:1-The book of the generations of Jesus Christ, the son of David,
the Son of Abraham.

Christ was Isaac, and Solomon. To further prove that Christ was Solomon,
look at 2Samuel 7:12-14

2Samuel 7:12- And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with
thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee(Solomon), which shall proceed
out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

7:13-He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish
the throne of his kingdom forever.

7:14-I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit
iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes
of teh children of men.

Can anyone recount when Solomon was beaten with stripes? When Solomon
built high places for his wives to sacrafice, that displeased the Most High, so when he
walked the earth as Christ, that's when the stripes came.
I have more if these don't suffice.

9Marksfan
Apr 26th 2008, 05:35 PM
:) You know, I have not yet read his stuff, but This alone-
"You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body"
makes so much sense of my experiences that I ask you to recommend to me my first.

Sorry - are you asking me to recommend a C S Lewis book or two? If so, Mere Christianity is a good start - Surprised by Joy and The Problem of Pain are also great.

Athanasius
Apr 26th 2008, 05:40 PM
Matthew 1:1-The book of the generations of Jesus Christ, the son of David,
the Son of Abraham.

Christ was Isaac, and Solomon. To further prove that Christ was Solomon,
look at 2Samuel 7:12-14

2Samuel 7:12- And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with
thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee(Solomon), which shall proceed
out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

7:13-He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish
the throne of his kingdom forever.

7:14-I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit
iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes
of teh children of men.

Can anyone recount when Solomon was beaten with stripes? When Solomon
built high places for his wives to sacrafice, that displeased the Most High, so when he
walked the earth as Christ, that's when the stripes came.
I have more if these don't suffice.

2Samuel 7:12 simply states that Jesus will be from the bloodline of Solomon. Which makes sense because Solomon is the son of David, and Jesus is from the Davidic line. There's nothing in this passage about reincarnation.

Doesn't suffice.

9Marksfan
Apr 26th 2008, 05:44 PM
Matthew 1:1-The book of the generations of Jesus Christ, the son of David,
the Son of Abraham.

Christ was Isaac, and Solomon.

Where on EARTH do you get that idea? Both were sinners! Christ NEVER sinned!


To further prove that Christ was Solomon,
look at 2Samuel 7:12-14

2Samuel 7:12- And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with
thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee(Solomon), which shall proceed
out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

7:13-He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish
the throne of his kingdom forever.

7:14-I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit
iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes
of teh children of men.

Can anyone recount when Solomon was beaten with stripes?


He was certainly severely chastened by God at the end of his life - perhaps the stripes are metaphorical - or they're just not recounted for us.


When Solomon built high places for his wives to sacrafice, that displeased the Most High, so when he walked the earth as Christ, that's when the stripes came.

I have more if these don't suffice.

You are basically saying that the perfect Son of God sinned in a previous incarnation as Solomon and was punished for His own sin - and that's blasphemy.

stillsearchin7
Apr 26th 2008, 05:46 PM
2Samuel 7:12 simply states that Jesus will be from the bloodline of Solomon. Which makes sense because Solomon is the son of David, and Jesus is from the Davidic line. There's nothing in this passage about reincarnation.

Doesn't suffice.

What about the stripes? When did Christ commit iniquity? You tackled 2Samuel, but what about Matthew? When you answer these questions, then I will bring out more.

Athanasius
Apr 26th 2008, 05:51 PM
What about the stripes? When did Christ commit iniquity? You tackled 2Samuel, but what about Matthew? When you answer these questions, then I will bring out more.

I'd answer the same thing to Matthew--Jesus was in the blood line of David. Christ didn't commit iniquity; He took on ours. There's still nothing in here about reincarnation, nor will you find anything.

The prophecies of Isaiah 53:4-5:
4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

stillsearchin7
Apr 26th 2008, 06:12 PM
I'd answer the same thing to Matthew--Jesus was in the blood line of David. Christ didn't commit iniquity; He took on ours. There's still nothing in here about reincarnation, nor will you find anything.

The prophecies of Isaiah 53:4-5:
4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

You said those scripture weren't enough: fair enough. John the Baptist was Elijah in his previous life. Read Matthew 17:10-13. That should be enough, but if not, I have more.

stillsearchin7
Apr 26th 2008, 06:14 PM
Where on EARTH do you get that idea? Both were sinners! Christ NEVER sinned!

To further prove that Christ was Solomon,
look at 2Samuel 7:12-14

2Samuel 7:12- And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with
thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee(Solomon), which shall proceed
out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

7:13-He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish
the throne of his kingdom forever.

7:14-I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit
iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes
of teh children of men.

Can anyone recount when Solomon was beaten with stripes?


He was certainly severely chastened by God at the end of his life - perhaps the stripes are metaphorical - or they're just not recounted for us.

When Solomon built high places for his wives to sacrafice, that displeased the Most High, so when he walked the earth as Christ, that's when the stripes came.

I have more if these don't suffice.[/quote]

You are basically saying that the perfect Son of God sinned in a previous incarnation as Solomon and was punished for His own sin - and that's blasphemy.[/quote]

Where did I get that idea? From the scriptures. It say"Jesus, the son of Abraham, son of David." Blasphemy? Call it what you may.

moonglow
Apr 26th 2008, 06:51 PM
Matthew 1:1-The book of the generations of Jesus Christ, the son of David,
the Son of Abraham.

Christ was Isaac, and Solomon. To further prove that Christ was Solomon,
look at 2Samuel 7:12-14

2Samuel 7:12- And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with
thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee(Solomon), which shall proceed
out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

7:13-He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish
the throne of his kingdom forever.

7:14-I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit
iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes
of teh children of men.

Can anyone recount when Solomon was beaten with stripes? When Solomon
built high places for his wives to sacrafice, that displeased the Most High, so when he
walked the earth as Christ, that's when the stripes came.
I have more if these don't suffice.

2 Samuel 7
11“‘Furthermore, the Lord declares that he will make a house for you—a dynasty of kings! 12 For when you die and are buried with your ancestors, I will raise up one of your descendants, your own offspring, and I will make his kingdom strong. 13 He is the one who will build a house—a temple—for my name. And I will secure his royal throne forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. If he sins, I will correct and discipline him with the rod, like any father would do. 15 But my favor will not be taken from him as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from your sight. 16 Your house and your kingdom will continue before me for all time, and your throne will be secure forever.’”

17 So Nathan went back to David and told him everything the Lord had said in this vision.


Adam Clarks bible commentary: (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=2sa&chapter=007)
Verse 11. The Lord-will make thee a house.
Thou hast in thy heart to make me a house; I have it in my heart to make thee a house: thy family shall be built up, and shall prosper in the throne of Israel; and thy spiritual posterity shall remain for ever. God is the author of all our holy purposes, as well as of our good works, he first excites them; and if we be workers together with him, he will crown and reward them as though they were our own, though he is their sole author.

Verse 13. He shall build
That is, Solomon shall build my temple, not thou, because thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars. See 1 Chronicles 22:8; and see also the observations at the end. See Clarke on 2 Samuel 7:25.

The throne of his kingdom for ever.
This is a reference to the government of the spiritual kingdom, the kingdom of the Messiah, agreeably to the predictions of the prophet long after, and by which this passage is illustrated: "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it, with judgment and with justice, from henceforth even FOR EVER." Isaiah 9:7.

Verse 14. If he commit iniquity
Depart from the holy commandment delivered to him; I will chasten him with the rod of men-he shall have affliction, but his government shall not be utterly subverted. But this has a higher meaning. See the observations at the end. See Clarke on 2 Samuel 7:25.

Verse 15. But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul
His house shall be a lasting house, and he shall die in the throne of Israel, his children succeeding him; and the spiritual seed, Christ, possessing and ruling in that throne to the end of time.

The family of Saul became totally extinct; the family of David remained till the incarnation. Joseph and Mary were both of that family; Jesus was the only heir to the kingdom of Israel; he did not choose to sit on the secular throne, he ascended the spiritual throne, and now he is exalted to the right hand of God, a PRINCE and a Saviour, to give repentance and remission of sins. See the observations at the end of the chapter. See Clarke on 2 Samuel 7:25.

Many have applied these verses and their parallels to support the doctrine of unconditional final perseverance; but with it the text has nothing to do; and were we to press it, because of the antitype, Solomon, the doctrine would most evidently be ruined, for there is neither proof nor evidence of Solomon's salvation.

I see nothing here that suggest anyone was reincarnated.


stillsearchin7:You said those scripture weren't enough: fair enough. John the Baptist was Elijah in his previous life. Read Matthew 17:10-13. That should be enough, but if not, I have more.

http://www.letusreason.org/NAM2.htm

Elijah is not John the Baptist

The Old Testament promised that Elijah would come to the Jewish people. Some who believe in reincarnation think this is what occurred with John the Baptizer being the fulfillment of Elijah's coming.

The Angel Gabriel announced to Zecharias that his son's name would be called John in Luke 1:13. He goes on to say in verse 15 that he will be great in the sight of the Lord and “shall drink no wine or strong drink and will be filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb.” Verse 17 says of John, “he will also go before Him (The Lord) in the Spirit and power of Elijah,” which is a ministry of reconciliation, would have the “hearts of the fathers turned to the children and children turning to their fathers.”

To claim that Elijah is John the Baptist is to teach reincarnation. The premise is that a spirit in a former body comes back to be born in another body. At the very least, it is transmigration. The Bible has never taught this.

In Matthew 11:13, Jesus states: “For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John.” (Jesus calls him “John” not “Elijah.” Elijah is included with 'all the prophets' who came before John. In verse 14, Jesus says “and if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come.” John wore a garment of camel's hair and a leather belt and preached in the wilderness. This was the same attire that Elijah wore (2 Kings 1:8), bringing attention to the Jews of the similarity of John's mission to that of Elijah's. Prophecy has many patterns and sometime dual or more fulfillments.

Malachi had predicted that before the Messiah's appearing, Elijah would come as a forerunner (Mal. 4:5-in relation to the day of the Lord). If the people had been willing to receive Jesus as the Messiah, then John would have filled the role of Elijah. Jesus then tells them to heed His words. If John fulfills Elijah's coming then Jesus is the Messiah.

Jesus pointed to John the Baptist as a type of fulfillment of Elijah's coming but he was not a reincarnation.

This is proven in John 1:20 when the Jews sent out the priests and Levites to investigate John's ministry. They ask him if he is the Christ. He states emphatically “No!” They ask him again if he is Elijah, John answers “I am not.” This is not a temporary memory loss for John that Jesus has to correct later. In verse 25, John the Baptist is asked, ‘Why do you baptize if you are not the Christ nor Elijah nor the prophet?’ In verses 25-27 John points to the Messiah who is coming after him. He states that it is he who is the forerunner of Malachi 3:1. In Luke 1:76, we see that John's father, Zecharias, is filled with the Holy spirit and says that his child will be called the prophet of the highest and will “go before the face of the Lord and prepare His ways again.' This relates John's ministry to Mal. 3:1, 4:5, and Luke 1:17. John labored in the same Spirit and power of the former prophet by calling people to repentance and he was preparing them for the salvation that Christ would later bring.

Both are Elijah and John the Baptist are forerunners. Elijah was promised to come for the second coming not the first, therefore he is not John the Baptist. Mal.3:1 promised an unnamed forerunner Mal.3:1: “Behold, I will send My messenger, and he shall prepare the way before Me: and the Lord, whom you seek, shall suddenly come to His temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom you delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.” Malachi speaks of two messengers one that will prepare the way for the Lord, this is none other than John the Baptizer who is foretold in Isa.40:3-4 as “The voice crying out in the wilderness: prepare the way of the Lord; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.”

Read the rest at the link. Understanding the bible as a whole help explain these types of confusions.

God bless

stillsearchin7
Apr 26th 2008, 06:59 PM
God Bless also, but are we going to listen to Adam Clark or the scriptures?

moonglow
Apr 26th 2008, 07:04 PM
None of the following happened to Isaiah...he was not sinless and didn't die for our sins...this is a prophecies about Jesus...I think that is where you are getting confused...the prophecies are about the coming Messiah and one of the things that proves the bible is reliable...fulfilled prophecies. Only Jesus was able to fulfill these. There isn't one thing here that suggest Jesus was Isaiah here. You will find this and many of the other passage you posted on any good Christian site showing the prophecies of Jesus. Who told you these proved reincarnation in the first place?

Isaiah 53

1 Who has believed our message?
To whom has the Lord revealed his powerful arm?
2 My servant grew up in the Lord’s presence like a tender green shoot,
like a root in dry ground.
There was nothing beautiful or majestic about his appearance,
nothing to attract us to him.
3 He was despised and rejected—
a man of sorrows, acquainted with deepest grief.
We turned our backs on him and looked the other way.
He was despised, and we did not care.

4 Yet it was our weaknesses he carried;
it was our sorrows that weighed him down.
And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God,
a punishment for his own sins!
5 But he was pierced for our rebellion,
crushed for our sins.
He was beaten so we could be whole.
He was whipped so we could be healed.
6 All of us, like sheep, have strayed away.
We have left God’s paths to follow our own.
Yet the Lord laid on him
the sins of us all.

7 He was oppressed and treated harshly,
yet he never said a word.
He was led like a lamb to the slaughter.
And as a sheep is silent before the shearers,
he did not open his mouth.
8 Unjustly condemned,
he was led away.
No one cared that he died without descendants,
that his life was cut short in midstream.
But he was struck down
for the rebellion of my people.
9 He had done no wrong
and had never deceived anyone.
But he was buried like a criminal;
he was put in a rich man’s grave.

10 But it was the Lord’s good plan to crush him
and cause him grief.
Yet when his life is made an offering for sin,
he will have many descendants.
He will enjoy a long life,
and the Lord’s good plan will prosper in his hands.
11 When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish,
he will be satisfied.
And because of his experience,
my righteous servant will make it possible
for many to be counted righteous,
for he will bear all their sins.
12 I will give him the honors of a victorious soldier,
because he exposed himself to death.
He was counted among the rebels.
He bore the sins of many and interceded for rebels.

This site shows all the OT passages about the Coming Messiah..Jesus Christ...and it includes this passage I just posted along with many others:

http://www.matthewmcgee.org/evidence.html

Here is another prophecies about what happened to Jesus while on the cross...though it was written by David...we know David was never nailed to a cross...

Psalm 22
For the choir director: A psalm of David, to be sung to the tune “Doe of the Dawn.”
1 My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?
Why are you so far away when I groan for help?
2 Every day I call to you, my God, but you do not answer.
Every night you hear my voice, but I find no relief.

3 Yet you are holy,
enthroned on the praises of Israel.
4 Our ancestors trusted in you,
and you rescued them.
5 They cried out to you and were saved.
They trusted in you and were never disgraced.

6 But I am a worm and not a man.
I am scorned and despised by all!
7 Everyone who sees me mocks me.
They sneer and shake their heads, saying,
8 “Is this the one who relies on the Lord?
Then let the Lord save him!
If the Lord loves him so much,
let the Lord rescue him!”

9 Yet you brought me safely from my mother’s womb
and led me to trust you at my mother’s breast.
10 I was thrust into your arms at my birth.
You have been my God from the moment I was born.

11 Do not stay so far from me,
for trouble is near,
and no one else can help me.
12 My enemies surround me like a herd of bulls;
fierce bulls of Bashan have hemmed me in!
13 Like lions they open their jaws against me,
roaring and tearing into their prey.
14 My life is poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart is like wax,
melting within me.
15 My strength has dried up like sunbaked clay.
My tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth.
You have laid me in the dust and left me for dead.
16 My enemies surround me like a pack of dogs;
an evil gang closes in on me.
They have pierced my hands and feet.
17 I can count all my bones.
My enemies stare at me and gloat.
18 They divide my garments among themselves
and throw dice for my clothing.

I can easily match verses in the NT where all of these were fulfilled..the Roman guards throwing dice for His robe...the mockings, Jesus quoted the first verse of this passage, and on and on. This only proves the bible can be trusted and is reliable.

God bless

moonglow
Apr 26th 2008, 07:05 PM
God Bless also, but are we going to listen to Adam Clark or the scriptures?

If it helps you get your thinking straight on scriptures instead of taking verses here and there out of content, then yea.

stillsearchin7
Apr 26th 2008, 07:15 PM
I hnoestly hope this doesn't turn into an arguement, but you're following doctrines of men. If you will, please answer me this; John 19:34; the soldier who pierced the Lord, where do you think he is today?

moonglow
Apr 26th 2008, 07:26 PM
Look anyone can take single verses and make the bible say what they want too...I can do this for instance:

I can do a post that says Jesus say to get revenge on your enemies and post this verse:

Matthew 5

38 “You have heard the law that says the punishment must match the injury: ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.

Leaving out the rest of what He said.

Matthew 5:43
“You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy.

again leaving out the rest of what He said...making it appear not only can we hate our enemies its ok to get back at them. I can go all through the bible picking out single verses here and there to make it sound ok to do this and sadly I have seen people do this. Ever heard of Fred Phelps? He claims God hates all of us...hate the USA, hates gays, that God is all about wrath and hate...and they quote scriptures...out of content and ignoring the rest that gives it balance. they ignore the verses on love, ignore the verses on grace, and just pick out what they want to fit their doctrine of hate.

1 Corinthians 6
9Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, 10thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, and swindlers--none of these will have a share in the Kingdom of God.

Again leaving out the rest of this passage that shows through Christ, these people were changed and stop these sins. I could just use that part to go around condemning those that practice these things without telling them the way out is through Jesus.

Sometimes it takes reading the whole chapter or even the whole book to get the true meaning...like on Elijah...read all the verses regarding him...which are on that site I posted...they bring all the verses into this to get a true idea of what is being said. Taking a single verse and building one idea on it, distorts scriptures. See my point here?

God bless

stillsearchin7
Apr 26th 2008, 07:32 PM
I see your point, but what does it have to do with the topic. If you'd be willing to answer my question about the soldier who pierced Christ, I will show you another scripture on reincarnation, hoping you don't try to knock it down with doctrines of men.

stillsearchin7
Apr 26th 2008, 07:34 PM
Look anyone can take single verses and make the bible say what they want too...I can do this for instance:

I can do a post that says Jesus say to get revenge on your enemies and post this verse:

Matthew 5

38 “You have heard the law that says the punishment must match the injury: ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.

Leaving out the rest of what He said.

Matthew 5:43
“You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy.

again leaving out the rest of what He said...making it appear not only can we hate our enemies its ok to get back at them. I can go all through the bible picking out single verses here and there to make it sound ok to do this and sadly I have seen people do this. Ever heard of Fred Phelps? He claims God hates all of us...hate the USA, hates gays, that God is all about wrath and hate...and they quote scriptures...out of content and ignoring the rest that gives it balance. they ignore the verses on love, ignore the verses on grace, and just pick out what they want to fit their doctrine of hate.

1 Corinthians 6
9Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, 10thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, and swindlers--none of these will have a share in the Kingdom of God.

Again leaving out the rest of this passage that shows through Christ, these people were changed and stop these sins. I could just use that part to go around condemning those that practice these things without telling them the way out is through Jesus.

Sometimes it takes reading the whole chapter or even the whole book to get the true meaning...like on Elijah...read all the verses regarding him...which are on that site I posted...they bring all the verses into this to get a true idea of what is being said. Taking a single verse and building one idea on it, distorts scriptures. See my point here?

God bless

Where in that same scripture does it say in that scripture they stopped their sins?

moonglow
Apr 26th 2008, 07:42 PM
I hnoestly hope this doesn't turn into an arguement, but you're following doctrines of men. If you will, please answer me this; John 19:34; the soldier who pierced the Lord, where do you think he is today?

I'm following the doctrines of men!?? :o Do you know of ONE church that teaches reincarnation? Why do you think that is....have you ever wondered why bible only churches don't teach that?

If you want to do straight bible with no outside sources, (even though they show scriptures) sure we can do that...be glad too! It can be easily proven just using straight scriptures there is no such thing as reincarnation...

The solider that pieced Jesus is dead...long dead. Now you will present this verse:

Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Do you think when we are in Heaven or hell we cannot see? Doesn't say he will still be alive to see Jesus at His Second Coming. Though actually if you knew what 'coming on the clouds' meant in biblical terms you would know this meant the judgment of God...NOT the second coming of Christ.

Clouds are depicted as the"chariots of God" and indicative of his MAJESTY. In Job 22:12.
Job 22:12
11 Or darkness so that you cannot see;
And an abundance of water covers you.

12 “Is not God in the height of heaven?
And see the highest stars, how lofty they are!

13 And you say, ‘What does God know?
Can He judge through the deep darkness?

14 Thick clouds cover Him, so that He cannot see,
And He walks above the circle of heaven.’


Job exalts Jehovah as the one who is in the height of heaven and covered with thick clouds. In which is a highly apocalyptic description of David's deliverance from Saul the former shepherd tells how Jehovah "bowed the heavens...and came down with darkness under his feet, he rode upon a cherub, and flew; He flew upon the wings of the wind. He made darkness His secret place; His canopy around Him was dark waters and thick clouds of the skies." Now one can look but in vain to find a physical event matching these words. Jehovah had acted to deliver his servant and thus he had come.

Psalm 18
7 Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of the hills also quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
8 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
10 And He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
He flew upon the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness His secret place;
His canopy around Him was dark waters
And thick clouds of the skies.
12 From the brightness before Him,
His thick clouds passed with hailstones and coals of fire.

He had acted and his actions had vindicated his righteousness, thus he was depicted as coming in majesty in the clouds. Psalm 68:32-35 also speaks of God who "rides on the heaven of heavens" and "his strength is in the clouds." Again the concept is his majesty and sovereignty. Psalms 104:3 tells us God "makes the clouds his chariots" and "walks on the wings of the wind."

Psalm 68:32-35
32 Sing to God, you kingdoms of the earth;
Oh, sing praises to the Lord, Selah
33 To Him who rides on the heaven of heavens, which were of old!
Indeed, He sends out His voice, a mighty voice.
34 Ascribe strength to God;
His excellence is over Israel,
And His strength is in the clouds.
35 O God, You are more awesome than Your holy places.
The God of Israel is He who gives strength and power to His people.

Blessed be God!

The idea of God's coming in the clouds is also associated with the exercise of his sovereignty in JUDGING his enemies. In Isaiah 19 Jehovah "rides on a swift cloud and will come into Egypt." We know from chapter 20 that it was the Assyrians who were God's instrument of wrath on Egypt, see Isaiah 20:1-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2020:1-4;&version=50;); yet it is said that Jehovah was coming on a cloud. In Zephaniah 1:14-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zephaniah%201:14-16;&version=50;) we are told the "great day of the Lord is near;" and that it would be a day of "wrath," "distress," and a "day of clouds," when the Lord would come. We know this is a prediction of the impending judgment on Jerusalem, 1:4. This judgment came in 606-586 BC.

Similar language is found in Nahum in the prediction of Nineveh's fall. Jehovah "has his way in the whirlwind...and the clouds are the dust of his feet." El Shaddai would come, the mountains would melt, the earth would be destroyed at his presence when he came on the clouds. We know that Nineveh was destroyed, not by a literal coming of Jehovah out of heaven on the clouds, but by the invading armies of the Chaldeans and Medes in approximately 612 BC.

Yet another though related concept of the coming with the clouds is the Messianic motif of Daniel. In Daniel 7 one like the Son of man is depicted as coming in the clouds of heaven. This concept of Messiah on the clouds was certainly one well known in the first century. For John to say in Revelation 1:7 that Jesus would come with the clouds was nothing less than an assertion of his Messianic role as the ruler of the kingdom of God. In his coming in the clouds he was exercising the sovereignty and demonstrating the majesty of deity so well known in the Old Covenant. The idea is not a literal coming with the clouds so much as an identifying factor of the one under consideration. He is to be viewed not just as man but the One, who, like Jehovah, rides on the clouds. The association of Jesus coming in the clouds then was a way for the Biblical writers to IDENTIFY Jesus, in a manner well known to those conversant with Old Testament symbolism, as God's Messiah, as the Judge, worthy of majesty and honor.

This is precisely the thought Jesus was conveying to Caiaphas when he told him he would see him coming in the clouds. When Jesus said he was going to come in the clouds this was a claim to the Messianic office and divine nature; Caiaphas responded, "He has spoken blasphemy!" Caiaphas was not responding to a claim that Jesus would literally return on a physical cloud. He was responding to the IDENTITY which Jesus was claiming by associating himself as the one to come in the clouds of heaven!


Matthew 26:63-65

63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”
64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy!

Now judgment came in 70 AD upon Jerusalem...the solider apparently was still alive...this was just 40 years after Jesus died on the cross and ascended to Heaven.


God bless

moonglow
Apr 26th 2008, 07:45 PM
Where in that same scripture does it say in that scripture they stopped their sins?

I am not sure what you are referring too here...which scripture did I post you are asking about? The 1 Corinthians 6?

Oh yea, this is the rest of that passage:

11 There was a time when some of you were just like that, but now your sins have been washed away, and you have been set apart for God. You have been made right with God because of what the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God have done for you.


They 'were' just like that..doing those things...past tense. through Jesus their sins were washed away..this can't happen if they are continuing these types of sins.

God bless

Athanasius
Apr 26th 2008, 07:50 PM
I hnoestly hope this doesn't turn into an arguement, but you're following doctrines of men. If you will, please answer me this; John 19:34; the soldier who pierced the Lord, where do you think he is today?

You'll have to forgive me for not replying to your claim that John the Baptist was Elijah--Moonglow already handled it.

The Soldier who pierced the Lord. . .What about him?

stillsearchin7
Apr 26th 2008, 08:03 PM
You'll have to forgive me for not replying to your claim that John the Baptist was Elijah--Moonglow already handled it.

The Soldier who pierced the Lord. . .What about him?

No need to apologize. In Revelation 1:7 it tells you the soldier who pierced Christ will see his coming. How else would he see if he wasn' t walking the earth at the time?

Athanasius
Apr 26th 2008, 08:04 PM
No need to apologize. In Revelation 1:7 it tells you the soldier who pierced Christ will see his coming. How else would he see if he wasn' t walking the earth at the time?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that, 'even those who pierced him' refer to those of us who sin; the sin Christ bore on the cross. Ergo, every one of us. I don't believe this is specifically relating to the soldier who pierced Jesus' side on the cross.

moonglow
Apr 26th 2008, 08:20 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that, 'even those who pierced him' refer to those of us who sin; the sin Christ bore on the cross. Ergo, every one of us. I don't believe this is specifically relating to the soldier who pierced Jesus' side on the cross.

That is very good! Never thought of it like that. Could very well be.

If the solider was still alive though that wouldn't mean reincarnation...it would mean being kept alive for thousands of years which no one in the bible ever lived thousands of years...hundreds but not thousands.

No Christian church teaches reincarnation...plain and simply. Some pagan religions do though...:( There would be no point in keeping one person alive just to seeing Jesus coming again...no point at all. Or having him reincarnated either.

Right now I need to get some other things done around here. stillsearchin7 I hope your search helps you find the truth in scriptures on this. There would be no point first of all in having people come back again and again. I think if reincarnation were in the bible there would be tons of passages about it as to the reason why and what it means. And there just isn't. Nothing happens in the bible for no reason...there would have to be a reason for this to occur such as a form of punishment or something...it certainly wouldn't be a good thing to happen! :(

God bless

stillsearchin7
Apr 26th 2008, 11:30 PM
In Zeceriah, and many other scriptures, it talks of raising up King David again in the last days. I wish I had more time, so I'm going to just bring out these scriptures.

Habakkuk 3:1-16
Daniel 12:10-13

stillsearchin7
Apr 26th 2008, 11:40 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that, 'even those who pierced him' refer to those of us who sin; the sin Christ bore on the cross. Ergo, every one of us. I don't believe this is specifically relating to the soldier who pierced Jesus' side on the cross.

It seems like you're just assuming, based on you saying "I'm going to go out on a limb" which could mean you're really not sure.

Athanasius
Apr 26th 2008, 11:49 PM
It seems like you're just assuming, based on you saying "I'm going to go out on a limb" which could mean you're really not sure.

"I'm going to go out on a limb" means that I've never examined that portion of scripture before and at a cursory glance that's what I would say the verse means.

After looking into the verse a little more. . . I'm sticking with that interpretation--that's what it means. How many of your 'proofs' of reincarnation do we have to show wrong before you start questioning the belief?

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 03:19 AM
"I'm going to go out on a limb" means that I've never examined that portion of scripture before and at a cursory glance that's what I would say the verse means.

After looking into the verse a little more. . . I'm sticking with that interpretation--that's what it means. How many of your 'proofs' of reincarnation do we have to show wrong before you start questioning the belief?

Actually you haven't proved anything wronged. Although I must admit, that "those who pierced him meaning us sinners" is original. You won't be able to find one scripture that even alludes to that by us sinning, we are piercing Christ.

Athanasius
Apr 27th 2008, 03:21 AM
Actually you haven't proved anything wronged. Although I must admit, that "those who pierced him meaning us sinners" is original. You won't be able to find one scripture that even alludes to that by us sinning, we are piercing Christ.

'He was peirced for our transgressions'. . . Isaiah 53, which I cited a few posts ago. Still, you've provided nothing showing reincarnation.

moonglow
Apr 27th 2008, 03:32 AM
In Zeceriah, and many other scriptures, it talks of raising up King David again in the last days. I wish I had more time, so I'm going to just bring out these scriptures.

Habakkuk 3:1-16
Daniel 12:10-13

We all will be raised again...in the resurrection. There are many scriptures on that..surely you know this.

Mark 12

18 Then some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him; and they asked Him, saying: 19 “Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man’s brother dies, and leaves his wife behind, and leaves no children, his brother should take his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 20 Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife; and dying, he left no offspring. 21 And the second took her, and he died; nor did he leave any offspring. And the third likewise. 22 So the seven had her and left no offspring. Last of all the woman died also. 23 Therefore, in the resurrection, when they rise, whose wife will she be? For all seven had her as wife.”

24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

What is God's promise to us?

John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

How is this everlasting life given? By living physically forever in our bodies? No of course not...every single Christian I have even know has eventually died. Do they come back again, born as a baby again to grow up and live this life all over again? No that isn't what scriptures tell us.

1 Corinthians 15

12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

(skipping down to remain on topic but feel free to read the whole chapter)

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “ O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.



There is other scriptures explaining what our spiritual bodies will be like and how we will live in Heaven with God in these bodies. Not coming back as flesh and blood again living on this earth. This earth will be destroyed for one thing. Clearly scriptures say, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God....so why would God have us come back again in a fleshly human body that is subject to sin all over again? Everyone would have to be saved all over again! And there is only once for that too.

Hebrews 6
The Peril of Not Progressing
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Is Jesus to take on our sins over and over and over again as we live again and again and again in fallible human bodies?

Scriptures sure don't show that at all. Christ died for our sins in this ONE life we have.

One final passage:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

So of course in this way David will rise again...all the believers that died will rise and be with Jesus forever...but it has nothing at all to do with reincarnation.

God bless

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 03:38 AM
We all will be raised again...in the resurrection. There are many scriptures on that..surely you know this.

Mark 12

18 Then some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him; and they asked Him, saying: 19 “Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man’s brother dies, and leaves his wife behind, and leaves no children, his brother should take his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 20 Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife; and dying, he left no offspring. 21 And the second took her, and he died; nor did he leave any offspring. And the third likewise. 22 So the seven had her and left no offspring. Last of all the woman died also. 23 Therefore, in the resurrection, when they rise, whose wife will she be? For all seven had her as wife.”

24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

What is God's promise to us?

John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

How is this everlasting life given? By living physically forever in our bodies? No of course not...every single Christian I have even know has eventually died. Do they come back again, born as a baby again to grow up and live this life all over again? No that isn't what scriptures tell us.

1 Corinthians 15

12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

(skipping down to remain on topic but feel free to read the whole chapter)

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “ O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.



There is other scriptures explaining what our spiritual bodies will be like and how we will live in Heaven with God in these bodies. Not coming back as flesh and blood again living on this earth. This earth will be destroyed for one thing. Clearly scriptures say, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God....so why would God have us come back again in a fleshly human body that is subject to sin all over again? Everyone would have to be saved all over again! And there is only once for that too.

Hebrews 6
The Peril of Not Progressing
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Is Jesus to take on our sins over and over and over again as we live again and again and again in fallible human bodies?

Scriptures sure don't show that at all. Christ died for our sins in this ONE life we have.

One final passage:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

So of course in this way David will rise again...all the believers that died will rise and be with Jesus forever...but it has nothing at all to do with reincarnation.

God bless

Everything you reply with is from a website, so it makes me wonder if you've actually looked into it, or you just looked at the site and it sounded good. In Hab 3:16-Why did Habbukuk hope to have rest in the day of trouble, if he wasn't on the earth(remember, he had just seen a vision of the end times)?

Athanasius
Apr 27th 2008, 04:32 AM
Everything you reply with is from a website, so it makes me wonder if you've actually looked into it, or you just looked at the site and it sounded good. In Hab 3:16-Why did Habbukuk hope to have rest in the day of trouble, if he wasn't on the earth(remember, he had just seen a vision of the end times)?

You sure he saw a vision of the end times? Are you sure he didn't see a vision of the Babylonians:hmm:

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 04:47 AM
I'm pretty sure it's obviously speaking of the day of the Lord. Can you explain otherwise on your Babylonian theory, and if not, answer my question?

Athanasius
Apr 27th 2008, 05:06 AM
I'm pretty sure it's obviously speaking of the day of the Lord. Can you explain otherwise on your Babylonian theory, and if not, answer my question?

Don't get ahead of yourself, I simply asked a question. But anyway. . . .

Habakkuk 1:1-4
[1] The burden which Habakkuk the prophet did see.
[2] O Lord, how long shall I cry, and thou wilt not hear! even cry out unto thee of violence, and thou wilt not save!
[3] Why dost thou shew me iniquity, and cause me to behold grievance? for spoiling and violence are before me: and there are that raise up strife and contention.
[4] Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.

Habakkuk here is speaking of Judah-iniquity, sin, disobedience, the lack of justice, etc. No disagreements, problems? Continuing.

Habakkuk 1:5-7
[5] Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
[6] For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.
[7] They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.

The 'Chaldeans' were a Babylonian dynasty, the 11th, or so I'm told. Here we learn that God is 'raising' them up to judge Judah, which they did. We can then 'skip ahead' to Habakkuk 3:16 (you can read everything in between, it won't change what I've said here. . .Well, it will only strengthen what I've said here). Anyway, in verse 16 we understand that Habakkuk is afraid of the Lord, His judgment against Judah. The 'rest in the day of trouble' refers to resting in the Lord. The 'he' refers to the King of the Chaldeans.

Satisfactory?

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 05:17 AM
Don't get ahead of yourself, I simply asked a question. But anyway. . . .

Habakkuk 1:1-4
[1] The burden which Habakkuk the prophet did see.
[2] O Lord, how long shall I cry, and thou wilt not hear! even cry out unto thee of violence, and thou wilt not save!
[3] Why dost thou shew me iniquity, and cause me to behold grievance? for spoiling and violence are before me: and there are that raise up strife and contention.
[4] Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.

Habakkuk here is speaking of Judah-iniquity, sin, disobedience, the lack of justice, etc. No disagreements, problems? Continuing.

Habakkuk 1:5-7
[5] Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
[6] For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.
[7] They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.

The 'Chaldeans' were a Babylonian dynasty, the 11th, or so I'm told. Here we learn that God is 'raising' them up to judge Judah, which they did. We can then 'skip ahead' to Habakkuk 3:16 (you can read everything in between, it won't change what I've said here. . .Well, it will only strengthen what I've said here). Anyway, in verse 16 we understand that Habakkuk is afraid of the Lord, His judgment against Judah. The 'rest in the day of trouble' refers to resting in the Lord. The 'he' refers to the King of the Chaldeans.


Satisfactory?

How was I getting ahead of myself; I simply replied. Actually it's not satisfactory; the 3rd chapter is obviously speaking of the day of the Lord, which, from reading one of your earlier posts, you don't believe is coming(that's if I'm not mistaken). Wether you did and I missed it, or you didn't: why was Christ referred to in the first chapter of Matthew as the son of Abraham and the son of David? It didn't say "The generations of Christ, from the lineage of Abraham." When I brought up the 'beaten with stripes' you said it was a metaphor, so as with the pierced; so I guess everything is a metaphor?

Athanasius
Apr 27th 2008, 05:27 AM
How was I getting ahead of myself; I simply replied. Actually it's not satisfactory; the 3rd chapter is obviously speaking of the day of the Lord, which, from reading one of your earlier posts, you don't believe is coming(that's if I'm not mistaken). Wether you did and I missed it, or you didn't: why was Christ referred to in the first chapter of Matthew as the son of Abraham and the son of David? It didn't say "The generations of Christ, from the lineage of Abraham." When I brought up the 'beaten with stripes' you said it was a metaphor, so as with the pierced; so I guess everything is a metaphor?

You replied to a question. I was not saying what Habakkuk referred to, either way, I was simply bringing Babylon into the equation ;)

But coming off that I have no idea how you're drawing these conclusions, they are ludicrous.

The third chapter of Habakkuk is absolutely in reference to the Chaldean 'conquest' of Judah--you can't take 3:16 is seclusion and derive your 'day of the Lord' conclusion from it, which is what you've done. It's a bad hermeneutic.

As for the 'Day of the Lord', I absolutely believe Jesus is coming back (second coming, then judgment). I believe in the Tribulation, Armageddon, the rapture, etc. So yes, you are [very] mistaken.

Now I already answered the question you had pertaining to Matthew. Why are you even entertaining the notion that we are reincarnated when the word son is used in the verse. Son, meaning not a reincarnated form of Abraham or David. Abraham would be a grandfather of 'David' (who would be a grandson of Abraham). Jesus would again be the grandson of David. It's referring to lineage.

The 'beaten with stripes' is very much literal--Jesus was beaten. But he wasn't beaten for the iniquity of some past life, he was beaten for our iniquity (Isaiah 53). So no, not 'everything' is a metaphor.

Reincarnation--very much against scripture.
What exactly are you still searching?

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 05:45 AM
You replied to a question. I was not saying what Habakkuk referred to, either way, I was simply bringing Babylon into the equation ;)

But coming off that I have no idea how you're drawing these conclusions, they are ludicrous.

The third chapter of Habakkuk is absolutely in reference to the Chaldean 'conquest' of Judah--you can't take 3:16 is seclusion and derive your 'day of the Lord' conclusion from it, which is what you've done. It's a bad hermeneutic.

As for the 'Day of the Lord', I absolutely believe Jesus is coming back (second coming, then judgment). I believe in the Tribulation, Armageddon, the rapture, etc. So yes, you are [very] mistaken.

Now I already answered the question you had pertaining to Matthew. Why are you even entertaining the notion that we are reincarnated when the word son is used in the verse. Son, meaning not a reincarnated form of Abraham or David. Abraham would be a grandfather of 'David' (who would be a grandson of Abraham). Jesus would again be the grandson of David. It's referring to lineage.

The 'beaten with stripes' is very much literal--Jesus was beaten. But he wasn't beaten for the iniquity of some past life, he was beaten for our iniquity (Isaiah 53). So no, not 'everything' is a metaphor.

Reincarnation--very much against scripture.
What exactly are you still searching?

John 9:1-2And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that HE WAS BORN BLIND?

Why would the disciples belive that it was a possibility that he was born blind becasue he sinned, unless they believed he sinned in a previous life?
Remember, they knowing he was born blind, asked who sinned.

Athanasius
Apr 27th 2008, 07:00 AM
John 9:1-2And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that HE WAS BORN BLIND?

Why would the disciples belive that it was a possibility that he was born blind becasue he sinned, unless they believed he sinned in a previous life?
Remember, they knowing he was born blind, asked who sinned.

Stop jumping around and answer my question; what are you still searching? After you do I'll answer this verse--but to tip you off; it doesn't support reincarnation.

Revinius
Apr 27th 2008, 08:42 AM
John 9:1-2And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that HE WAS BORN BLIND?

Why would the disciples belive that it was a possibility that he was born blind becasue he sinned, unless they believed he sinned in a previous life?
Remember, they knowing he was born blind, asked who sinned.

Original sin doesnt mean reincarnation. It simply means there is a legacy of sin that infects every part of our being. You dont have to throw in the unnecessary mechanism of reincarnation to explain it. I would go further and say that if you support reincarnation you dont really understand the concept of Hell and how important this life is in the choices we make. You suggest that we have many lives and that in my opinion belittles what it is that Jesus is/did. Your saying its common to a man to resurrect when in actuality this was the ultimate miracles.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 09:03 AM
Stop jumping around and answer my question; what are you still searching? After you do I'll answer this verse--but to tip you off; it doesn't support reincarnation.

Jumping around? Don't get frustrated, just is just a forum. I think you're just trying to buy time to come up with an explanation for that one. I'm still searching for whatever you think I'm still searching for. Now can you answer?

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 09:13 AM
Original sin doesnt mean reincarnation. It simply means there is a legacy of sin that infects every part of our being. You dont have to throw in the unnecessary mechanism of reincarnation to explain it. I would go further and say that if you support reincarnation you dont really understand the concept of Hell and how important this life is in the choices we make. You suggest that we have many lives and that in my opinion belittles what it is that Jesus is/did. Your saying its common to a man to resurrect when in actuality this was the ultimate miracles.

In order for you to assume I don't understand the concept of hell, you would have to live my life, and there's no such thing as a "concept of hell." Hell is very real. There are more scriptures in the bible supporting reincarnation, but it will continue to be shot down, that's why I'll ask if any of you read the Apocrypha and believe it to be the word of God along with the bible?

Athanasius
Apr 27th 2008, 01:23 PM
Jumping around? Don't get frustrated, just is just a forum. I think you're just trying to buy time to come up with an explanation for that one. I'm still searching for whatever you think I'm still searching for. Now can you answer?

I'm far from frustrated.
By the way. . . Still see no answer.


In order for you to assume I don't understand the concept of hell, you would have to live my life, and there's no such thing as a "concept of hell." Hell is very real. There are more scriptures in the bible supporting reincarnation, but it will continue to be shot down, that's why I'll ask if any of you read the Apocrypha and believe it to be the word of God along with the bible?

No, the Apocrypha isn't inspired. Nor are there any verses in the Bible supporting reincarnation. As to your last post, and forgive me for having to go to sleep at 3:00AM. . . It's simple. Jews thought that sin led to disease. Jews also believed that sin ran through generations and that children could pay for their parents sin. Once again, no reincarnation.

Revinius
Apr 27th 2008, 01:34 PM
I'll ask if any of you read the Apocrypha and believe it to be the word of God along with the bible?

Its not the Word of God.

moonglow
Apr 27th 2008, 02:11 PM
Everything you reply with is from a website, so it makes me wonder if you've actually looked into it, or you just looked at the site and it sounded good. In Hab 3:16-Why did Habbukuk hope to have rest in the day of trouble, if he wasn't on the earth(remember, he had just seen a vision of the end times)?

Uh no...I looked up each of those passages myself. Since I have studied the resurrection in great detail...I used to hold to the pre-trib rapture idea..was raised on this belief and many of those verses were used to prove it...in further studies though I realized these are about the resurrection. And of course the ones about our changed bodies nearly every Christian studies of course...curious of what we will be like after death...when we are in Heaven. So for those reasons I know these by heart. I use an online bible website to quickly look up verses and copy and paste them on to here. But this was no copy from any website at all! I looked up each one myself. Besides that, if I had done that (though I know of no site that lists these) what difference would it make? They are still straight from the bible and shouldn't be discounted simply because you think I copied them from somewhere. That sounds like an excuse to me...

Here is the bible website I use to look up scripture: http://www.biblegateway.com/

If I had to search through my own bible for each one and then sit here and try to read each one while I typed it on here, it would take me forever to do one post. So I use this site.

I did read the verses you listed on your other post, that is what lead me to respond as I did.


In Hab 3:16-Why did Habbukuk hope to have rest in the day of trouble, if he wasn't on the earth(remember, he had just seen a vision of the end times)?

Habakkuk 3:16

16 I trembled inside when I heard this;
my lips quivered with fear.
My legs gave way beneath me,
and I shook in terror.
I will wait quietly for the coming day
when disaster will strike the people who invade us.

First what is in this verse you are talking about? This verse alone does not show he is having a vision, nor does it show having a vision means he isn't on earth. Why do you assume that someone that has a vision is in Heaven anyway? Also this verse says nothing about him hoping to have rest. Did you post the wrong verse here?

moonglow
Apr 27th 2008, 02:43 PM
Jumping around? Don't get frustrated, just is just a forum. I think you're just trying to buy time to come up with an explanation for that one. I'm still searching for whatever you think I'm still searching for. Now can you answer?

Why do you insult us like this? First you accuse me of copying from some website...which its against the board rules to copy from a site and not give credit to the author..we have to provide a link to the source...then you accuse Xel'Naga of just trying to buy time to figure out how to answer your question when in fact you have not answered many of our questions! So should we say the same to you? that you aren't answering our questions because you are buying time to find the answers? I asked you if you knew of any Christian churches that taught reincarnation...bible believing (only using the bible) churches and you never replied...never answered. I also asked you where you got this idea and these scriptures that you think point to reincarnation and you never answered either. You also have not be kind enough to acknowledge you have been wrong on many of these passages you thought pointed to reincarnation when clearly they were prophecies about the coming Messiah (the ones in the OT you listed).

You did not address my post showing scriptures (not a website) but plain scriptures that shows our changed bodies and the resurrection...you dismissed them thinking I just copied them from some site...which I didn't. They are still IN the bible! I would like to see you explain how your idea of reincarnation fits in with us getting spiritual bodies...but you won't...you don't address any verses that go directly against your ideas and instead continue throwing out verses you think prove reincarnation instead demanding we answer them only to reject our answers even though we answer showing scriptures....of course we will 'shoot' them down because they are easily disproven with the bible it self.

If you really think you cannot convince us of reincarnation then why do you continue on with this? You will find very few Christians that believe this idea and you won't find it in any church for sure. It was never taught in the first early churches and has never been taught at all. Its considered heretical teachings in fact.


In order for you to assume I don't understand the concept of hell, you would have to live my life, and there's no such thing as a "concept of hell." Hell is very real.

Of course he knows hell is real...why do you nitpick over our words like this?

1 Timothy 6
4 Anyone who teaches something different is arrogant and lacks understanding. Such a person has an unhealthy desire to quibble over the meaning of words. This stirs up arguments ending in jealousy, division, slander, and evil suspicions.

If I am understanding you right WHY in the world would you want reincarnation to be true?

Do you think you have been reincarnated yourself?

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 03:35 PM
Why do you insult us like this? First you accuse me of copying from some website...which its against the board rules to copy from a site and not give credit to the author..we have to provide a link to the source...then you accuse Xel'Naga of just trying to buy time to figure out how to answer your question when in fact you have not answered many of our questions! So should we say the same to you? that you aren't answering our questions because you are buying time to find the answers? I asked you if you knew of any Christian churches that taught reincarnation...bible believing (only using the bible) churches and you never replied...never answered. I also asked you where you got this idea and these scriptures that you think point to reincarnation and you never answered either. You also have not be kind enough to acknowledge you have been wrong on many of these passages you thought pointed to reincarnation when clearly they were prophecies about the coming Messiah (the ones in the OT you listed).

You did not address my post showing scriptures (not a website) but plain scriptures that shows our changed bodies and the resurrection...you dismissed them thinking I just copied them from some site...which I didn't. They are still IN the bible! I would like to see you explain how your idea of reincarnation fits in with us getting spiritual bodies...but you won't...you don't address any verses that go directly against your ideas and instead continue throwing out verses you think prove reincarnation instead demanding we answer them only to reject our answers even though we answer showing scriptures....of course we will 'shoot' them down because they are easily disproven with the bible it self.

If you really think you cannot convince us of reincarnation then why do you continue on with this? You will find very few Christians that believe this idea and you won't find it in any church for sure. It was never taught in the first early churches and has never been taught at all. Its considered heretical teachings in fact.



Of course he knows hell is real...why do you nitpick over our words like this?

1 Timothy 6
4 Anyone who teaches something different is arrogant and lacks understanding. Such a person has an unhealthy desire to quibble over the meaning of words. This stirs up arguments ending in jealousy, division, slander, and evil suspicions.

If I am understanding you right WHY in the world would you want reincarnation to be true?

Do you think you have been reincarnated yourself?

As far as you asking if I Knew any churches that teach reincarnation, I mus have missed that; I don't. So I guess that for it to be true a church has to believe it first. As far as where I got the scriptures from; from the same KJV bible you and I read. How can I acknowledge that I was wrong if none of you have proved me wrong? That's not pride, but I haven't seen anyone of you prove me wrong. I know that our bodies will change in the ressurection. That's a broad accusation you've made, saying I "nitpick over our words". Who else did I do this to and can you show me? If I believe in reincarnation of course I believe I've been here before. Maybe you can show me the scripture that says "There's nothing new under the sun, except for spirits."

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 03:38 PM
I'm far from frustrated.
By the way. . . Still see no answer.



No, the Apocrypha isn't inspired. Nor are there any verses in the Bible supporting reincarnation. As to your last post, and forgive me for having to go to sleep at 3:00AM. . . It's simple. Jews thought that sin led to disease. Jews also believed that sin ran through generations and that children could pay for their parents sin. Once again, no reincarnation.

You adressed the disciples asking if his parents sinned, but you didn't adress why the disciples asked if the man sinned, being born blind? How could he sin before he was born?

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 03:42 PM
Uh no...I looked up each of those passages myself. Since I have studied the resurrection in great detail...I used to hold to the pre-trib rapture idea..was raised on this belief and many of those verses were used to prove it...in further studies though I realized these are about the resurrection. And of course the ones about our changed bodies nearly every Christian studies of course...curious of what we will be like after death...when we are in Heaven. So for those reasons I know these by heart. I use an online bible website to quickly look up verses and copy and paste them on to here. But this was no copy from any website at all! I looked up each one myself. Besides that, if I had done that (though I know of no site that lists these) what difference would it make? They are still straight from the bible and shouldn't be discounted simply because you think I copied them from somewhere. That sounds like an excuse to me...

Here is the bible website I use to look up scripture: http://www.biblegateway.com/

If I had to search through my own bible for each one and then sit here and try to read each one while I typed it on here, it would take me forever to do one post. So I use this site.

I did read the verses you listed on your other post, that is what lead me to respond as I did.



Habakkuk 3:16

16 I trembled inside when I heard this;
my lips quivered with fear.
My legs gave way beneath me,
and I shook in terror.
I will wait quietly for the coming day
when disaster will strike the people who invade us.

First what is in this verse you are talking about? This verse alone does not show he is having a vision, nor does it show having a vision means he isn't on earth. Why do you assume that someone that has a vision is in Heaven anyway? Also this verse says nothing about him hoping to have rest. Did you post the wrong verse here?

You misunderstood me. I never said, nor insinuated that he was having a vision in heaven. I said, he was having a vision of the day of the Lord, and he said he hoped to have rest(and it does say rest, I don't know what version you're reading) in that day. Why would he hope to have rest if he wasn't on earth during the day of the Lord/endtimes?

moonglow
Apr 27th 2008, 04:11 PM
You adressed the disciples asking if his parents sinned, but you didn't adress why the disciples asked if the man sinned, being born blind? How could he sin before he was born?

Yes he did answer your question :


Xel'Naga
It's simple. Jews thought that sin led to disease. Jews also believed that sin ran through generations and that children could pay for their parents sin. Once again, no reincarnation.

Jesus disciples were Jews...they believed this passage:

Exodus 34:7

7 I lavish unfailing love to a thousand generations.
I forgive iniquity, rebellion, and sin.
But I do not excuse the guilty.
I lay the sins of the parents upon their children and grandchildren;
the entire family is affected—
even children in the third and fourth generations.”

More then likely this is what he is thinking of, though he can correct me on that! I think its more important to notice in the passage of the blind man what Jesus had to say about it, rather then trying to build an idea on what the disciple thought..the disciples were not God....its more important to see Christ response to this. At any this doesn't answer the question...in which they asked did HE, the man, sin before birth.....so here is the answer which you won't like because its from a bible commentary though includes some historical information. I am posting this for those reading and wanting to learn the answers. I think we also need to keep in mind how corrupt the religious leaders of Jesus day had become...which Jesus was constantly pointing out.

The Adam Clarke Commentary
(http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=joh&chapter=009)
Verse 2. Who did sin, this man, or his parents
The doctrine of the transmigration of souls appears to have been an article in the creed of the Pharisees, and it was pretty general both among the Greeks and the Asiatics. The Pythagoreans believed the souls of men were sent into other bodies for the punishment of some sin which they had committed in a pre-existent state. This seems to have been the foundation of the disciples question to our Lord. Did this man sin in a pre-existent state, that he is punished in this body with blindness? Or, did his parents commit some sin, for which they are thus plagued in their offspring?

Most of the Asiatic nations have believed in the doctrine of transmigration. The Hindoos still hold it; and profess to tell precisely the sin which the person committed in another body, by the afflictions which he endures in this: they profess also to tell the cures for these. For instance, they say the headache is a punishment for having, in a former state, spoken irrevently to father or mother. Madness is a punishment for having been disobedient to father or mother, or to one's spiritual guide. The epilepsy is a punishment for having, in a former state, administered poison to any one at the command of his master. Pain in the eyes is a punishment for having, in another body, coveted another man's wife. Blindness is a punishment for having killed his mother: but this person they say, before his new birth, will suffer many years' torment in hell. See many curious particulars relative to this in the AYEEN AKBERY, vol. iii. p. 168-175; and in the Institutes of Menu, chap. xi. Inst. 48-53.

The Jewish rabbins have had the same belief from the very remotest antiquity. Origen cites an apocryphal book of the Hebrews, in which the patriarch Jacob is made to speak thus: I am an angel of God; one of the first order of spirits. Men call me Jacob, but my true name, which God has given me, is Israel: Orat. Joseph. apud ORIG. Many of the Jewish doctors have believed that the souls of Adam, Abraham, and Phineas, have successively animated the great men of their nation. Philo says that the air is full of spirits, and that some, through their natural propensity, join themselves to bodies; and that others have an aversion from such a union. See several other things relative to this point in his treatises, De Plant. Noe-De Gigantibus-De Confus. Ling.-De Somniis, and see Calmet, where he is pretty largely quoted.

The Hindoos believe that the most of their misfortunes arise out of the sins of a former birth; and, in moments of grief not unfrequently break out into exclamations like the following:-"Ah! in a former birth how many sins must I have committed, that I am thus afflicted!" "I am now suffering for the sins of a former birth; and the sins that I am now committing are to fill me with misery in a following birth. There is no end to my sufferings!"

Josephus, Ant. b. xvii. c. 1, s. 3, and War, b. ii. c. 8, s. 14, gives an account of the doctrine of the Pharisees on this subject. He intimates that the souls of those only who were pious were permitted to reanimate human bodies, and this was rather by way of reward than punishment; and that the souls of the vicious are put into eternal prisons, where they are continually tormented, and out of which they can never escape. But it is very likely that Josephus has not told the whole truth here; and that the doctrine of the Pharisees on this subject was nearly the same with that of the Papists on purgatory.

Those who are very wicked go irrecoverably to hell; but those who are not so have the privilege of expiating their venial sins in purgatory. Thus, probably, is the Pharisean doctrine of the transmigration to be understood. Those who were comparatively pious went into other bodies, for the expiation of any remaining guilt which had not been removed previously to a sudden or premature death, after which they were fully prepared for paradise; but others who had been incorrigibly wicked were sent at once into hell, without ever being offered the privilege of amendment, or escape. For the reasons which may be collected above, much as I reverence Bishop Pearce, I cannot agree with his note on this passage, where he says that the words of the disciples should be thus understood:-Who did sin? This man, that he is blind? or his parents, that he was born so?

He thinks it probable that the disciples did not know that the man was born blind: if he was, then it was for some sin of his parents-if he was not born so, then this blindness came unto him as a punishment for some crime of his own. It may be just necessary to say, that some of the rabbins believed that it was possible for an infant to sin in the womb, and to be punished with some bodily infirmity in consequence. See several examples in Lightfoot on this place.



As far as you asking if I Knew any churches that teach reincarnation, I mus have missed that; I don't. So I guess that for it to be true a church has to believe it first.

I think to discount the first churches set up by the disciples would be a grave error. Those churches and what they taught ARE in the NT for us to read. Reincarnation was not taught.

At any rate I am done here...I have lost patience with this and think I need to heed what Jesus said and shake the dust off my feet...we can go around and around with this forever and I see no fruit in it. I don't like the word games being played or the false accusations going on by stillsearchin. Its been CLEARLY proven the verses provided do NOT prove reincarnation...everyone can see that except stillsearchin. I would say...keep searching and pray the Lord leads you to the truth of His Word.

Oh I forgot one thing:

2 Timothy 2

8 Always remember that Jesus Christ, a descendant of King David, was raised from the dead. This is the Good News I preach. 9 And because I preach this Good

Matt 13:44
Apr 27th 2008, 04:55 PM
Ecclesiastes 3:15 (New International Version)

15 Whatever is has already been,
and what will be has been before;
and God will call the past to account.

Is my past yet to come or has my future already happened? ;)

Revinius
Apr 27th 2008, 05:21 PM
Ok mate, so Jesus dying meant nothing. All his spirit did is go back to a body, just like you say we do according to you. So he didnt cheat death, he was just being human?

Athanasius
Apr 27th 2008, 06:00 PM
You adressed the disciples asking if his parents sinned, but you didn't adress why the disciples asked if the man sinned, being born blind? How could he sin before he was born?

Moonglow reiterated my answer to your question.

So what are you still searching?

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 06:14 PM
Yes he did answer your question :



Jesus disciples were Jews...they believed this passage:

Exodus 34:7

7 I lavish unfailing love to a thousand generations.
I forgive iniquity, rebellion, and sin.
But I do not excuse the guilty.
I lay the sins of the parents upon their children and grandchildren;
the entire family is affected—
even children in the third and fourth generations.”

More then likely this is what he is thinking of, though he can correct me on that! I think its more important to notice in the passage of the blind man what Jesus had to say about it, rather then trying to build an idea on what the disciple thought..the disciples were not God....its more important to see Christ response to this. At any this doesn't answer the question...in which they asked did HE, the man, sin before birth.....so here is the answer which you won't like because its from a bible commentary though includes some historical information. I am posting this for those reading and wanting to learn the answers. I think we also need to keep in mind how corrupt the religious leaders of Jesus day had become...which Jesus was constantly pointing out.

The Adam Clarke Commentary
(http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=joh&chapter=009)
Verse 2. Who did sin, this man, or his parents
The doctrine of the transmigration of souls appears to have been an article in the creed of the Pharisees, and it was pretty general both among the Greeks and the Asiatics. The Pythagoreans believed the souls of men were sent into other bodies for the punishment of some sin which they had committed in a pre-existent state. This seems to have been the foundation of the disciples question to our Lord. Did this man sin in a pre-existent state, that he is punished in this body with blindness? Or, did his parents commit some sin, for which they are thus plagued in their offspring?

Most of the Asiatic nations have believed in the doctrine of transmigration. The Hindoos still hold it; and profess to tell precisely the sin which the person committed in another body, by the afflictions which he endures in this: they profess also to tell the cures for these. For instance, they say the headache is a punishment for having, in a former state, spoken irrevently to father or mother. Madness is a punishment for having been disobedient to father or mother, or to one's spiritual guide. The epilepsy is a punishment for having, in a former state, administered poison to any one at the command of his master. Pain in the eyes is a punishment for having, in another body, coveted another man's wife. Blindness is a punishment for having killed his mother: but this person they say, before his new birth, will suffer many years' torment in hell. See many curious particulars relative to this in the AYEEN AKBERY, vol. iii. p. 168-175; and in the Institutes of Menu, chap. xi. Inst. 48-53.

The Jewish rabbins have had the same belief from the very remotest antiquity. Origen cites an apocryphal book of the Hebrews, in which the patriarch Jacob is made to speak thus: I am an angel of God; one of the first order of spirits. Men call me Jacob, but my true name, which God has given me, is Israel: Orat. Joseph. apud ORIG. Many of the Jewish doctors have believed that the souls of Adam, Abraham, and Phineas, have successively animated the great men of their nation. Philo says that the air is full of spirits, and that some, through their natural propensity, join themselves to bodies; and that others have an aversion from such a union. See several other things relative to this point in his treatises, De Plant. Noe-De Gigantibus-De Confus. Ling.-De Somniis, and see Calmet, where he is pretty largely quoted.

The Hindoos believe that the most of their misfortunes arise out of the sins of a former birth; and, in moments of grief not unfrequently break out into exclamations like the following:-"Ah! in a former birth how many sins must I have committed, that I am thus afflicted!" "I am now suffering for the sins of a former birth; and the sins that I am now committing are to fill me with misery in a following birth. There is no end to my sufferings!"

Josephus, Ant. b. xvii. c. 1, s. 3, and War, b. ii. c. 8, s. 14, gives an account of the doctrine of the Pharisees on this subject. He intimates that the souls of those only who were pious were permitted to reanimate human bodies, and this was rather by way of reward than punishment; and that the souls of the vicious are put into eternal prisons, where they are continually tormented, and out of which they can never escape. But it is very likely that Josephus has not told the whole truth here; and that the doctrine of the Pharisees on this subject was nearly the same with that of the Papists on purgatory.

Those who are very wicked go irrecoverably to hell; but those who are not so have the privilege of expiating their venial sins in purgatory. Thus, probably, is the Pharisean doctrine of the transmigration to be understood. Those who were comparatively pious went into other bodies, for the expiation of any remaining guilt which had not been removed previously to a sudden or premature death, after which they were fully prepared for paradise; but others who had been incorrigibly wicked were sent at once into hell, without ever being offered the privilege of amendment, or escape. For the reasons which may be collected above, much as I reverence Bishop Pearce, I cannot agree with his note on this passage, where he says that the words of the disciples should be thus understood:-Who did sin? This man, that he is blind? or his parents, that he was born so?

He thinks it probable that the disciples did not know that the man was born blind: if he was, then it was for some sin of his parents-if he was not born so, then this blindness came unto him as a punishment for some crime of his own. It may be just necessary to say, that some of the rabbins believed that it was possible for an infant to sin in the womb, and to be punished with some bodily infirmity in consequence. See several examples in Lightfoot on this place.




I think to discount the first churches set up by the disciples would be a grave error. Those churches and what they taught ARE in the NT for us to read. Reincarnation was not taught.

At any rate I am done here...I have lost patience with this and think I need to heed what Jesus said and shake the dust off my feet...we can go around and around with this forever and I see no fruit in it. I don't like the word games being played or the false accusations going on by stillsearchin. Its been CLEARLY proven the verses provided do NOT prove reincarnation...everyone can see that except stillsearchin. I would say...keep searching and pray the Lord leads you to the truth of His Word.

Oh I forgot one thing:

2 Timothy 2

8 Always remember that Jesus Christ, a descendant of King David, was raised from the dead. This is the Good News I preach. 9 And because I preach this Good

What false accusations? That's frustration talking. That idea of "those who pierced him will see him" being sinners makes no sense; because the verse says every eye will see, and since everyone is a sinner, there's no need to expound on it, believing that "even those who pierced him" are us sinners.

Matthew 24:34-After Christ speaks prophecy, concernnig the last days, why did he say "this generation will not pass til all these things be fulfilled?" With that verse, according to you, that means those people he were talking toare still walking around in those same bodies today.

Athanasius
Apr 27th 2008, 06:16 PM
You're jumping around 'stillsearching7'. Stop squirming and stick to one topic.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 06:17 PM
Ok mate, so Jesus dying meant nothing as all his spirit did is go back to a body, just like you say we do. So he didnt cheat death, he was just being human?

That's what you are saying, not I. Christ didn't just die. As you may all know, he preached to the spirits in hell that were before the flood.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 06:18 PM
You're jumping around 'stillsearching7'. Stop squirming and stick to one topic.

Stop squirming? That's real Christlike of you. What other topic did I mention, other than the current one?

Revinius
Apr 27th 2008, 06:23 PM
he preached to the spirits in hell that were before the flood.

I am not familiar with that theology, please show me where it says that?

moonglow
Apr 27th 2008, 06:42 PM
[QUOTE=stillsearchin7;1619029]What false accusations? That's frustration talking.

No its fact as you said I copied and pasted some website here:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=123058&page=4

stillsearchin7: Everything you reply with is from a website, so it makes me wonder if you've actually looked into it, or you just looked at the site and it sounded good.

And said I probably didn't bother reading the passages you posted...but I did. Both of these are false accusations. If you didn't assume so much you wouldn't be making accusations that aren't true.


That idea of "those who pierced him will see him" being sinners makes no sense; because the verse says every eye will see, and since everyone is a sinner, there's no need to expound on it, believing that "even those who pierced him" are us sinners.

Matthew 24:34-After Christ speaks prophecy, concernnig the last days, why did he say "this generation will not pass til all these things be fulfilled?" With that verse, according to you, that means those people he were talking toare still walking around in those same bodies today.


I already answered this on this post:

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1618158&postcount=35

Xel'Naga has different views because his end time views are different then mine. At any rate this is going exactly where I knew it would go...in circles with us repeating ourselves over and over again. Please give us reasons, with scriptures, to back up as to why you disagree with our counter scriptures regarding those you say prove reincarnation. Other wise everyone will continue responding to you with what they have said already. You have not presented any scriptures showing our view is incorrect.

moonglow
Apr 27th 2008, 06:46 PM
I am not familiar with that theology, please show me where it says that?

1 Peter 3:18-20

18 Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.

19 So he went and preached to the spirits in prison—20 those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.

While His body was dead, He went and preached to those that had died during the flood.

God bless

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 06:53 PM
[quote]

No its fact as you said I copied and pasted some website here:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=123058&page=4


And said I probably didn't bother reading the passages you posted...but I did. Both of these are false accusations. If you didn't assume so much you wouldn't be making accusations that aren't true.



I already answered this on this post:

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1618158&postcount=35

Xel'Naga has different views because his end time views are different then mine. At any rate this is going exactly where I knew it would go...in circles with us repeating ourselves over and over again. Please give us reasons, with scriptures, to back up as to why you disagree with our counter scriptures regarding those you say prove reincarnation. Other wise everyone will continue responding to you with what they have said already. You have not presented any scriptures showing our view is incorrect.
There's a difference between accusing and assuming. Everytime I said something of the sort, I said 'probably' or 'maybe'. You are right, we are going in circles; if anyone can answer the matthew 24:34-"this generation shall not pass till all the se things be fulfilled..." Are those people still walking around in the same fleshly bodies? If anyone can, with reason, and no opinion, with scripture answer that, then I'm in error.

Revinius
Apr 27th 2008, 07:03 PM
1 Peter 3:18-20

18 Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.

19 So he went and preached to the spirits in prison—20 those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.

While His body was dead, He went and preached to those that had died during the flood.

God bless

Thankyou... :)

.

moonglow
Apr 27th 2008, 08:10 PM
There's a difference between accusing and assuming. [QUOTE]Everytime I said something of the sort, I said 'probably' or 'maybe'. You are right, we are going in circles; if anyone can answer the matthew 24:34-"this generation shall not pass till all the se things be fulfilled..." Are those people still walking around in the same fleshly bodies? If anyone can, with reason, and no opinion, with scripture answer that, then I'm in error.

You will get different answers depending on the person's end time views on this.

Matthew 24;30 And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.

32 “Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near. 33 In the same way, when you see all these things, you can know his return is very near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear.

The 'coming on the clouds' was an expression as I posted before..it means judgment...not the literal Second Coming of Christ...though many will disagree with me on that:

Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Clouds are depicted as the"chariots of God" and indicative of his MAJESTY. In Job 22:12.
Job 22:12
11 Or darkness so that you cannot see;
And an abundance of water covers you.

12 “Is not God in the height of heaven?
And see the highest stars, how lofty they are!

13 And you say, ‘What does God know?
Can He judge through the deep darkness?

14 Thick clouds cover Him, so that He cannot see,
And He walks above the circle of heaven.’


Job exalts Jehovah as the one who is in the height of heaven and covered with thick clouds. In which is a highly apocalyptic description of David's deliverance from Saul the former shepherd tells how Jehovah "bowed the heavens...and came down with darkness under his feet, he rode upon a cherub, and flew; He flew upon the wings of the wind. He made darkness His secret place; His canopy around Him was dark waters and thick clouds of the skies." Now one can look but in vain to find a physical event matching these words. Jehovah had acted to deliver his servant and thus he had come.

Psalm 18
7 Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of the hills also quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
8 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
10 And He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
He flew upon the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness His secret place;
His canopy around Him was dark waters
And thick clouds of the skies.
12 From the brightness before Him,
His thick clouds passed with hailstones and coals of fire.

He had acted and his actions had vindicated his righteousness, thus he was depicted as coming in majesty in the clouds. Psalm 68:32-35 also speaks of God who "rides on the heaven of heavens" and "his strength is in the clouds." Again the concept is his majesty and sovereignty. Psalms 104:3 tells us God "makes the clouds his chariots" and "walks on the wings of the wind."

Psalm 68:32-35
32 Sing to God, you kingdoms of the earth;
Oh, sing praises to the Lord, Selah
33 To Him who rides on the heaven of heavens, which were of old!
Indeed, He sends out His voice, a mighty voice.
34 Ascribe strength to God;
His excellence is over Israel,
And His strength is in the clouds.
35 O God, You are more awesome than Your holy places.
The God of Israel is He who gives strength and power to His people.

Blessed be God!

The idea of God's coming in the clouds is also associated with the exercise of his sovereignty in JUDGING his enemies. In Isaiah 19 Jehovah "rides on a swift cloud and will come into Egypt." We know from chapter 20 that it was the Assyrians who were God's instrument of wrath on Egypt, see Isaiah 20:1-4; yet it is said that Jehovah was coming on a cloud. In Zephaniah 1:14-16 we are told the "great day of the Lord is near;" and that it would be a day of "wrath," "distress," and a "day of clouds," when the Lord would come. We know this is a prediction of the impending judgment on Jerusalem, 1:4. This judgment came in 606-586 BC.

Similar language is found in Nahum in the prediction of Nineveh's fall. Jehovah "has his way in the whirlwind...and the clouds are the dust of his feet." El Shaddai would come, the mountains would melt, the earth would be destroyed at his presence when he came on the clouds. We know that Nineveh was destroyed, not by a literal coming of Jehovah out of heaven on the clouds, but by the invading armies of the Chaldeans and Medes in approximately 612 BC.

Yet another though related concept of the coming with the clouds is the Messianic motif of Daniel. In Daniel 7 one like the Son of man is depicted as coming in the clouds of heaven. This concept of Messiah on the clouds was certainly one well known in the first century. For John to say in Revelation 1:7 that Jesus would come with the clouds was nothing less than an assertion of his Messianic role as the ruler of the kingdom of God. In his coming in the clouds he was exercising the sovereignty and demonstrating the majesty of deity so well known in the Old Covenant. The idea is not a literal coming with the clouds so much as an identifying factor of the one under consideration. He is to be viewed not just as man but the One, who, like Jehovah, rides on the clouds. The association of Jesus coming in the clouds then was a way for the Biblical writers to IDENTIFY Jesus, in a manner well known to those conversant with Old Testament symbolism, as God's Messiah, as the Judge, worthy of majesty and honor.

This is precisely the thought Jesus was conveying to Caiaphas when he told him he would see him coming in the clouds. When Jesus said he was going to come in the clouds this was a claim to the Messianic office and divine nature; Caiaphas responded, "He has spoken blasphemy!" Caiaphas was not responding to a claim that Jesus would literally return on a physical cloud. He was responding to the IDENTITY which Jesus was claiming by associating himself as the one to come in the clouds of heaven!


Matthew 26:63-65

63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”
64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy!

Now judgment came in 70 AD upon Jerusalem...the solider..all those who pierced Him were apparently was still alive...this was just 40 years after Jesus died on the cross and ascended to Heaven.

Now tell me why did Caiaphas react this way to what Jesus said about coming on the clouds of Heaven if it wasn't true, that the Jews knew this meant a sign of God? Jesus was making Himself equal to God. This is why he said Jesus spoke blasphemy and what lead Him to the cross.

Matthew 24

30 And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Apparently this meant something extremely important to the Jews...this 'coming on the clouds'....and it did happen in the lifetime of those that pierced Him.

IamBill
Apr 27th 2008, 08:40 PM
There's a difference between accusing and assuming. Everytime I said something of the sort, I said 'probably' or 'maybe'. You are right, we are going in circles; if anyone can answer the matthew 24:34-"this generation shall not pass till all the se things be fulfilled..." Are those people still walking around in the same fleshly bodies? If anyone can, with reason, and no opinion, with scripture answer that, then I'm in error.

Hi stillsearchin,

24:34-"this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled..."

Your answer lay in "what" generation is being referred to, right?

Jesus described it earlier, Mat 24:29-33

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 09:32 PM
[quote]

You will get different answers depending on the person's end time views on this.

Matthew 24;30 And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.

32 “Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near. 33 In the same way, when you see all these things, you can know his return is very near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear.

The 'coming on the clouds' was an expression as I posted before..it means judgment...not the literal Second Coming of Christ...though many will disagree with me on that:

Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Clouds are depicted as the"chariots of God" and indicative of his MAJESTY. In Job 22:12.
Job 22:12
11 Or darkness so that you cannot see;
And an abundance of water covers you.

12 “Is not God in the height of heaven?
And see the highest stars, how lofty they are!

13 And you say, ‘What does God know?
Can He judge through the deep darkness?

14 Thick clouds cover Him, so that He cannot see,
And He walks above the circle of heaven.’


Job exalts Jehovah as the one who is in the height of heaven and covered with thick clouds. In which is a highly apocalyptic description of David's deliverance from Saul the former shepherd tells how Jehovah "bowed the heavens...and came down with darkness under his feet, he rode upon a cherub, and flew; He flew upon the wings of the wind. He made darkness His secret place; His canopy around Him was dark waters and thick clouds of the skies." Now one can look but in vain to find a physical event matching these words. Jehovah had acted to deliver his servant and thus he had come.

Psalm 18
7 Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of the hills also quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
8 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
10 And He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
He flew upon the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness His secret place;
His canopy around Him was dark waters
And thick clouds of the skies.
12 From the brightness before Him,
His thick clouds passed with hailstones and coals of fire.

He had acted and his actions had vindicated his righteousness, thus he was depicted as coming in majesty in the clouds. Psalm 68:32-35 also speaks of God who "rides on the heaven of heavens" and "his strength is in the clouds." Again the concept is his majesty and sovereignty. Psalms 104:3 tells us God "makes the clouds his chariots" and "walks on the wings of the wind."

Psalm 68:32-35
32 Sing to God, you kingdoms of the earth;
Oh, sing praises to the Lord, Selah
33 To Him who rides on the heaven of heavens, which were of old!
Indeed, He sends out His voice, a mighty voice.
34 Ascribe strength to God;
His excellence is over Israel,
And His strength is in the clouds.
35 O God, You are more awesome than Your holy places.
The God of Israel is He who gives strength and power to His people.

Blessed be God!

The idea of God's coming in the clouds is also associated with the exercise of his sovereignty in JUDGING his enemies. In Isaiah 19 Jehovah "rides on a swift cloud and will come into Egypt." We know from chapter 20 that it was the Assyrians who were God's instrument of wrath on Egypt, see Isaiah 20:1-4; yet it is said that Jehovah was coming on a cloud. In Zephaniah 1:14-16 we are told the "great day of the Lord is near;" and that it would be a day of "wrath," "distress," and a "day of clouds," when the Lord would come. We know this is a prediction of the impending judgment on Jerusalem, 1:4. This judgment came in 606-586 BC.

Similar language is found in Nahum in the prediction of Nineveh's fall. Jehovah "has his way in the whirlwind...and the clouds are the dust of his feet." El Shaddai would come, the mountains would melt, the earth would be destroyed at his presence when he came on the clouds. We know that Nineveh was destroyed, not by a literal coming of Jehovah out of heaven on the clouds, but by the invading armies of the Chaldeans and Medes in approximately 612 BC.

Yet another though related concept of the coming with the clouds is the Messianic motif of Daniel. In Daniel 7 one like the Son of man is depicted as coming in the clouds of heaven. This concept of Messiah on the clouds was certainly one well known in the first century. For John to say in Revelation 1:7 that Jesus would come with the clouds was nothing less than an assertion of his Messianic role as the ruler of the kingdom of God. In his coming in the clouds he was exercising the sovereignty and demonstrating the majesty of deity so well known in the Old Covenant. The idea is not a literal coming with the clouds so much as an identifying factor of the one under consideration. He is to be viewed not just as man but the One, who, like Jehovah, rides on the clouds. The association of Jesus coming in the clouds then was a way for the Biblical writers to IDENTIFY Jesus, in a manner well known to those conversant with Old Testament symbolism, as God's Messiah, as the Judge, worthy of majesty and honor.

This is precisely the thought Jesus was conveying to Caiaphas when he told him he would see him coming in the clouds. When Jesus said he was going to come in the clouds this was a claim to the Messianic office and divine nature; Caiaphas responded, "He has spoken blasphemy!" Caiaphas was not responding to a claim that Jesus would literally return on a physical cloud. He was responding to the IDENTITY which Jesus was claiming by associating himself as the one to come in the clouds of heaven!


Matthew 26:63-65

63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”
64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy!

Now judgment came in 70 AD upon Jerusalem...the solider..all those who pierced Him were apparently was still alive...this was just 40 years after Jesus died on the cross and ascended to Heaven.

Now tell me why did Caiaphas react this way to what Jesus said about coming on the clouds of Heaven if it wasn't true, that the Jews knew this meant a sign of God? Jesus was making Himself equal to God. This is why he said Jesus spoke blasphemy and what lead Him to the cross.

Matthew 24

30 And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Apparently this meant something extremely important to the Jews...this 'coming on the clouds'....and it did happen in the lifetime of those that pierced Him.

That's nice, but you didn't adress the 34th verse.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 09:37 PM
Hi stillsearchin,

24:34-"this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled..."

Your answer lay in "what" generation is being referred to, right?

Jesus described it earlier, Mat 24:29-33

How are you doing, Bill? I read that verse; I see where that could make sense and it's arguable. When Christ says "this generation", I would figure if he was speaking of a future generation, he would have said "that generation". How about Luke 9:27?

moonglow
Apr 27th 2008, 10:02 PM
[quote=moonglow;1619151]

That's nice, but you didn't adress the 34th verse.

Oh yes I did...I will go back and edit it and highlight it in red...it was first passage I posted, I just put in it content is all...maybe that is why you missed it.

Athanasius
Apr 27th 2008, 10:05 PM
Stop squirming? That's real Christlike of you. What other topic did I mention, other than the current one?

Hey. . . What are you still searching?

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 11:07 PM
Hey. . . What are you still searching?

I've already answered that...whatever you'd like to believe I'm still searching for...you're going to keep asking that question to avoid answering what "this generation will not pass" verse.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 11:07 PM
[quote=stillsearchin7;1619245]

Oh yes I did...I will go back and edit it and highlight it in red...it was first passage I posted, I just put in it content is all...maybe that is why you missed it.

No, you didn't address it, you quoted it but didn't explain it.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 11:30 PM
When Christ asked the disciples "Who do men say I am?" and they started naming various people; they said some believe he was Jeremiah, Elijah or one of the prophets. Why didn't the Lord denounce the idea of a spirit coming to a different body right there?

moonglow
Apr 28th 2008, 12:26 AM
[quote=moonglow;1619266]

No, you didn't address it, you quoted it but didn't explain it.

Yes I did, but I guess it was too indepth...sorry about that...I am use to having this discussion on the end time form...I will rewrite the key points here.

You asked about this verse:

Matthew 24

34 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things take place.

I said and quote:
Now judgment came in 70 AD upon Jerusalem...the solider..all those who pierced Him were apparently was still alive...this was just 40 years after Jesus died on the cross and ascended to Heaven.

I brought this up because that was your first question a couple of pages back regarding Matthew and Revelation on the ones that pierced Him.

I quoted the verse in content to show what Jesus was talking about ...WHAT 'things will take place' in THIS generation?

Basically I said they DID take place in that generation...those that pierced Him, saw Him...THAT generation experienced everything Jesus talked about in Matthew 24. Is that clear enough now? I was explaining both things you brought up...the ones that pierced Him and 'this generation'.

IamBill
Apr 28th 2008, 12:29 AM
How are you doing, Bill? I read that verse; I see where that could make sense and it's arguable. When Christ says "this generation", I would figure if he was speaking of a future generation, he would have said "that generation".

:) ok, all I can say now is (and is important) - do you think Jesus knew that a generation/s would be reading this 2000 years in the future ?
Yes right ?

...now ask yourself why He didn't say "That" generation ;)



How about Luke 9:27?
Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, There are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death,
till they see the kingdom of God.
(Bold) "See", witness, observe, visualize, understand.
Now read on carefully
28 And it came to pass about eight days after these sayings, that he took with him Peter and John and James, and went up into the mountain to pray.

read on in the verses if you wish, I don't want to send this into another circle
:)

moonglow
Apr 28th 2008, 12:37 AM
When Christ asked the disciples "Who do men say I am?" and they started naming various people; they said some believe he was Jeremiah, Elijah or one of the prophets. Why didn't the Lord denounce the idea of a spirit coming to a different body right there?

He did answer them:
Matthew 16
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”

14 “Well,” they replied, “some say John the Baptist, some say Elijah, and others say Jeremiah or one of the other prophets.”

15 Then he asked them, “But who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “You are blessed, Simon son of John, because my Father in heaven has revealed this to you. You did not learn this from any human being.

He confirmed Peter was right. Seems weird they would even bring up John since John the Baptist, baptized Jesus himself! But then they were just telling Jesus what OTHERS thought..until He asked them what they thought. But still as popular as John was it seems like people would have known Jesus was baptized by him.

stillsearchin7
Apr 28th 2008, 12:40 AM
[quote=stillsearchin7;1619313]

Yes I did, but I guess it was too indepth...sorry about that...I am use to having this discussion on the end time form...I will rewrite the key points here.

You asked about this verse:

Matthew 24

34 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things take place.

I said and quote:

I brought this up because that was your first question a couple of pages back regarding Matthew and Revelation on the ones that pierced Him.

I quoted the verse in content to show what Jesus was talking about ...WHAT 'things will take place' in THIS generation?

Basically I said they DID take place in that generation...those that pierced Him, saw Him...THAT generation experienced everything Jesus talked about in Matthew 24. Is that clear enough now? I was explaining both things you brought up...the ones that pierced Him and 'this generation'.

Nowhere in the scripture does it say that the soldier was still alive, so you're assuming. You honestly believe everything Christ was talknig about in the 24th chapter, that generatino experienced. It says there will be a time of tribulation unlike no other time, so the days to come are gonna be easy to endure comparedto the tribulation back then? So Matthew 24:29 happened in that generation also?

stillsearchin7
Apr 28th 2008, 12:41 AM
He did answer them:
Matthew 16
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”

14 “Well,” they replied, “some say John the Baptist, some say Elijah, and others say Jeremiah or one of the other prophets.”

15 Then he asked them, “But who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “You are blessed, Simon son of John, because my Father in heaven has revealed this to you. You did not learn this from any human being.

He confirmed Peter was right. Seems weird they would even bring up John since John the Baptist, baptized Jesus himself! But then they were just telling Jesus what OTHERS thought..until He asked them what they thought. But still as popular as John was it seems like people would have known Jesus was baptized by him.

Like I said, why didn't Christ denounce that idea?

stillsearchin7
Apr 28th 2008, 12:43 AM
So the angels gathered together the lect during the generation also?

moonglow
Apr 28th 2008, 01:24 AM
Like I said, why didn't Christ denounce that idea?

Why would He have too when He confirmed He was the Son of God?

That would be like Him having to explain twice who He was...saying He wasn't this person or that person but the Son of God.


So the angels gathered together the lect during the generation also?

First there is judgment as we see here:
Matthew 24

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

At this point the gospel was closed to the rejecting Jews ( Matthew 8:11,12, and Luke 13:28,29.)and going to be given to the Gentiles, the elect...the angels are always seen as God's messagers..who was Jesus' messagers...what did He tell them to go do?

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus' disciples went out and began preaching the gospel to everyone...'gathering the elect' as He instructed...'making disciples of all nations'. The temple was now destroyed and the Jews had lost their chance until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled. So yes, this 'sending out the disciples' happen in that generation.

stillsearchin7
Apr 28th 2008, 01:32 AM
Why would He have too when He confirmed He was the Son of God?

That would be like Him having to explain twice who He was...saying He wasn't this person or that person but the Son of God.



First there is judgment as we see here:
Matthew 24

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

At this point the gospel was closed to the rejecting Jews ( Matthew 8:11,12, and Luke 13:28,29.)and going to be given to the Gentiles, the elect...the angels are always seen as God's messagers..who was Jesus' messagers...what did He tell them to go do?

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus' disciples went out and began preaching the gospel to everyone...'gathering the elect' as He instructed...'making disciples of all nations'. The temple was now destroyed and the Jews had lost their chance until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled. So yes, this 'sending out the disciples' happen in that generation.

Exaxtly, and at the same time why didn't he denounce the foolish idead of reincarnation? Why would Christ let them believe that if it wasn't so?

You twisted the whole 24th chapter of Matthew. It says the angels will gather the elect...you are basically calling the disciples angels.

I wonder if anyone else agrees with this "interpretation.'
To be honest I'm kind of anxious to see how you are going to explain Matthew 24:29 as happening during that time.

moonglow
Apr 28th 2008, 01:45 AM
Exaxtly, and at the same time why didn't he denounce the foolish idead of reincarnation? Why would Christ let them believe that if it wasn't so?


Who said they believed that He was someone else? He asked them what OTHERS said about Him...THEN asked them what they thought...who they thought He was. And since Peter answered correctly..that He was the Son of God, why do you think Peter or the others thought He was reincarnated?

You twisted the whole 24th chapter of Matthew. It says the angels will gather the elect...you are basically calling the disciples angels.

I wonder if anyone else agrees with this "interpretation.'
To be honest I'm kind of anxious to see how you are going to explain Matthew 24:29 as happening during that time.

My view of Matthew 24 isn't that uncommon as you would see if you hung out on the end times form. There is tons of historical evidence that the tribulation did indeed happen in the past...Matthew 24 is past history. This does NOT mean Jesus has had His Second coming yet though by any means. Everything thinks it about the tribulation then the Second Coming right away, its not.

Oh on the disciples being like angels...why not?

Luke 20:35-37

35 But in the age to come, those worthy of being raised from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. 36 And they will never die again. In this respect they will be like angels. They are children of God and children of the resurrection.


Matthew 24:29...oh boy...this again goes back to OT references where the sun and moon and stars meant nations, wars, political events...etc...I don't you don't like commentaries but I don't see why I should look up each verse when its listed on here ..especially when I know you will reject the idea anyway and I am short on time right now anyway.

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024
Verse 29. Immediately after the tribulation, generally understand this, and what follows, of the end of the world and Christ's coming to judgment: but the word immediately shows that our Lord is not speaking of any distant event, but of something immediately consequent on calamities already predicted: and that must be the destruction of Jerusalem. "The Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened-brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the Church; the moon is the government of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both. Compare Isaiah 13:10; ; Ezekiel 32:7,8, Lightfoot.

In the prophetic language, great commotions upon earth are often represented under the notion of commotions and changes in the heavens:-

The fall of Babylon is represented by the stars and constellations of heaven withdrawing their light, and the sun and moon being darkened. See Isaiah 13:9,10.

The destruction of Egypt, by the heaven being covered, the sun enveloped with a cloud, and the moon withholding her light. Ezekiel 32:7,8.

The destruction of the Jews by Antiochus Epiphanes is represented by casting down some of the host of heaven, and the stars to the ground. See Daniel 8:10.

And this very destruction of Jerusalem is represented by the Prophet Joel, Joel 2:30,31, by showing wonders in heaven and in earth-darkening the sun, and turning the moon into blood. This general mode of describing these judgments leaves no room to doubt the propriety of its application in the present case.

The falling of stars, i.e. those meteors which are called falling stars by the common people, was deemed an omen of evil times.



Feel free to look up each verse listed to see if what is said here is true or not.

stillsearchin7
Apr 28th 2008, 01:53 AM
My view of Matthew 24 isn't that uncommon as you would see if you hung out on the end times form. There is tons of historical evidence that the tribulation did indeed happen in the past...Matthew 24 is past history. This does NOT mean Jesus has had His Second coming yet though by any means. Everything thinks it about the tribulation then the Second Coming right away, its not.

Oh on the disciples being like angels...why not?

Luke 20:35-37

35 But in the age to come, those worthy of being raised from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. 36 And they will never die again. In this respect they will be like angels. They are children of God and children of the resurrection.


Matthew 24:29...oh boy...this again goes back to OT references where the sun and moon and stars meant nations, wars, political events...etc...I don't you don't like commentaries but I don't see why I should look up each verse when its listed on here ..especially when I know you will reject the idea anyway and I am short on time right now anyway.

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024
Verse 29. Immediately after the tribulation, generally understand this, and what follows, of the end of the world and Christ's coming to judgment: but the word immediately shows that our Lord is not speaking of any distant event, but of something immediately consequent on calamities already predicted: and that must be the destruction of Jerusalem. "The Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened-brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the Church; the moon is the government of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both. Compare Isaiah 13:10; ; Ezekiel 32:7,8, Lightfoot.

In the prophetic language, great commotions upon earth are often represented under the notion of commotions and changes in the heavens:-

The fall of Babylon is represented by the stars and constellations of heaven withdrawing their light, and the sun and moon being darkened. See Isaiah 13:9,10.

The destruction of Egypt, by the heaven being covered, the sun enveloped with a cloud, and the moon withholding her light. Ezekiel 32:7,8.

The destruction of the Jews by Antiochus Epiphanes is represented by casting down some of the host of heaven, and the stars to the ground. See Daniel 8:10.

And this very destruction of Jerusalem is represented by the Prophet Joel, Joel 2:30,31, by showing wonders in heaven and in earth-darkening the sun, and turning the moon into blood. This general mode of describing these judgments leaves no room to doubt the propriety of its application in the present case.

The falling of stars, i.e. those meteors which are called falling stars by the common people, was deemed an omen of evil times.



Feel free to look up each verse listed to see if what is said here is true or not.

It said in the age to come, and you believe that times already happen so that's irrelevant. One last question then I have to go for now:

Matthew 24:22-What in that time could have been so catastrophic that no flesh should be saved?

Athanasius
Apr 28th 2008, 02:35 AM
I've already answered that...whatever you'd like to believe I'm still searching for...you're going to keep asking that question to avoid answering what "this generation will not pass" verse.

You're not searching for whatever I'd like to believe you're searching for. You're searching for whatever you're searching for--so what are you searching for? As for the generations question, it's already been answered.

Now come on, what are you searching for?

IamBill
Apr 28th 2008, 03:14 AM
stillsearchin, you never did address post #88

moonglow
Apr 28th 2008, 03:25 AM
It said in the age to come, and you believe that times already happen so that's irrelevant. One last question then I have to go for now:

Matthew 24:22-What in that time could have been so catastrophic that no flesh should be saved?

My view is not irrelevant..if I am correct, it totally destroys your idea that those that pierced him and those living then would see Him in the future..because that future view of yours would play right into your idea they are reincarnated over and over until this event happens. But if I am right and it all really did happen in that generation when those that pierced Him were still living...there is no need for recycling of these people...or any need to keep them alive either for a huge amount of time.

Or I am totally wrong and its all meant as spiritual...since our soul go on...either to heaven or hell sure they would see Christ coming on the cloud with the view its His Second Coming. We know from scriptures souls are very aware of things...other wise as you posted why would Jesus go to hades to preach to those from Noah's time? He preached to the spirits there...remember? Not reincarnated people on earth. You posted that verse yourself. So they were able to 'see' Jesus then..why not 'see' Him coming on the clouds later for the final judgment...the Great White Throne judgment? I would moan too if I lost and about to be judged! This is the final judgment....pretty nerve wracking stuff if a person isn't right with God.


One last question then I have to go for now:

Matthew 24:22-What in that time could have been so catastrophic that no flesh should be saved?

What happened indeed. What was Jesus talking about in Matthew..the destruction of the temple, the up coming murder of the disciples,, feeling Judea...such terrible things. The bible does not record the actual events that took place...but we know they did. The temple is long gone, it does record some of the disciples murders for their faith though and the terrible persecution that went on. History tells us the rest of the story.
Ever hear of the Jewish historian Josephus,that lived at this time in history. He recorded the events that happen to not only Judea and Jerusalem but the surrounding countries. It was horrible!

We read in Luke 21 which is Jesus talking about the same things in Matthew but gives a little more detail:

20 “And when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then you will know that the time of its destruction has arrived. 21 Then those in Judea must flee to the hills. Those in Jerusalem must get out, and those out in the country should not return to the city. 22 For those will be days of God’s vengeance, and the prophetic words of the Scriptures will be fulfilled. 23 How terrible it will be for pregnant women and for nursing mothers in those days. For there will be disaster in the land and great anger against this people. 24 They will be killed by the sword or sent away as captives to all the nations of the world. And Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the period of the Gentiles comes to an end.

The army was Rome. They came in and surrounded the city...at one point they briefly backed off and it gave the believers, the Christians, time to escape and not one believer died in this. We see all through the OT how God says He will send something like smoke and fire, etc, upon a nation that has done wrong...what did He usually send? And army of their enemies.

History records one of the highest death rates then..those not killed right away with starved to death. Women were killing and eating their own babies. Many were carried off to die in arenas with lions and tigers tearing them apart...or made to be slaves.

Its all recorded in the War of the Jews here: http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-pref.htm

Adam Clarks bible commentary repeat some of this history in his commentary..though its condensed..its horrible:

Verse 22. Except those days should be shortened (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024)
Josephus computes the number of those who perished in the siege at eleven hundred thousand, besides those who were slain in other places, WAR, b. vi. c. 9; and if the Romans had gone on destroying in this manner, the whole nation of the Jews would, in a short time, have been entirely extirpated; but, for the sake of the elect, the Jews, that they might not be utterly destroyed, and for the Christians particularly, the days were shortened.

These, partly through the fury of the zealots on one hand, and the hatred of the Romans on the other; and partly through the difficulty of subsisting in the mountains without houses or provisions, would in all probability have been all destroyed, either by the sword or famine, if the days had not been shortened. The besieged themselves helped to shorten those days by their divisions and mutual slaughters; and by fatally deserting their strong holds, where they never could have been subdued, but by famine alone. So well fortified was Jerusalem, and so well provided to stand a siege, that the enemy without could not have prevailed, had it not been for the factions and seditions within. When Titus was viewing the fortifications after the taking of the city, he could not help ascribing his success to God. "We have fought," said he, "with God on our side; and it is God who pulled the Jews out of these strong holds: for what could machines or the hands of men avail against such towers as these?" WAR, b. vi. c. 9.

To St. Matthew's account, St. Luke adds, Luke 21:24, They shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shalt be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles, till the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. The number of those who fell by the sword was very great. ELEVEN HUNDRED THOUSAND perished during the siege. Many were slain at other places, and at other times. By the commandment of Florus, the first author of the war, there were slain at Jerusalem 3,600, Jos. WAR, b. ii. c. 14. By the inhabitants of Caesarea, above 20,000. At Scythopolis, above 13,000. At Ascalon, 2,500. At Ptolemais, 2,000. At Alexandria, 50,000. At Joppa, when taken by Cestius Gallus, 8,400. In a mountain called Asamon, near Sepporis, above 2,000. At Damascus, 10,000. In a battle with the Romans at Ascalon, 10,000. In an ambuscade near the same place, 8,000. At Japha, 15,000. Of the Samaritans, on Mount Gerizim, 11,600. At Jotapa, 40,000. At Joppa, when taken by Vespasian, 4,200. At Tarichea, 6,500. And after the city was taken, 1,200. At Gamala, 4,000, besides 5,000 who threw themselves down a precipice. Of those who fled with John, of Gischala, 6,000. Of the Gadarenes, 15,000 slain, besides countless multitudes drowned. In the village of Idumea, above 10,000 slain. At Gerasa, 1,000. At Machaerus, 1,700. In the wood of Jardes, 3,000. In the castle of Masada, 960. In Cyrene, by Catullus the governor, 3,000. Besides these, many of every age, sex, and condition, were slain in the war, who are not reckoned; but, of those who are reckoned, the number amounts to upwards of 1,357,660, which would have appeared incredible, if their own historian had not so particularly enumerated them. See Josephus, WAR, book ii. c. 18,20; book iii. c. 2,7, 8,9; book iv. c. 1,2, 7,8, 9; book vii. c. 6,9, 11; and Bp. Newton, vol. ii. p. 288-290.

Many also were led away captives into all nations. There were taken at Japha, 2,130. At Jotapa, 1,200. At Tarichea, 6,000 chosen young men, who were sent to Nero; others sold to the number of 30,400, besides those who were given to Agrippa. Of the Gadarenes were taken 2,200. In Idumea above 1,000. Many besides these were taken in Jerusalem; so that, as Josephus says, the number of the captives taken in the whole war amounted to 97,000. Those above seventeen years of age were sent to the works in Egypt; but most were distributed through the Roman provinces, to be destroyed in their theatres by the sword, and by the wild beasts; and those under seventeen years of age were sold for slaves.

Eleven thousand in one place perished for want. At Caesarea, Titus, like a thorough-paced infernal savage, murdered 2,500 Jews, in honour of his brother's birthday; and a greater number at Berytus in honour of his father's. See Josephus, WAR, b. vii. c. 3. s. 1. Some he caused to kill each other; some were thrown to the wild beasts; and others burnt alive. And all this was done by a man who was styled, The darling of mankind! Thus were the Jews miserably tormented, and distributed over the Roman provinces; and continue to be distressed and dispersed over all the nations of the world to the present day. Jerusalem also was, according to the prediction of our Lord, to be trodden down by the Gentiles.

Accordingly it has never since been in the possession of the Jews. It was first in subjection to the Romans, afterwards to the Saracens, then to the Franks, after to the Mamalukes, and now to the Turks. Thus has the prophecy of Christ been most literally and terribly fulfilled, on a people who are still preserved as continued monuments of the truth of our Lord's prediction, and of the truth of the Christian religion. See more in Bp. Newton's Dissert. vol. ii. p. 291,
*****************************************888
I got tired of bolding the numbers that died...its so awful. Just in reading what Clark has put on his commentary and not even reading all of the historical accounts...it turns a person's stomach for sure. It was a terrible time to live in for sure. Everything Jesus said would happen in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 happened...He tried to warn the Jews! We read His warning through out scriptures including in Matthew 23...He mourns for them because of what they are bringing upon themselves.


Jesus Grieves over Jerusalem
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me. 38 And now, look, your house is abandoned and desolate.

Luke 23:27-29

27 A large crowd trailed behind, including many grief-stricken women. 28 But Jesus turned and said to them, “Daughters of Jerusalem, don’t weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For the days are coming when they will say, ‘Fortunate indeed are the women who are childless, the wombs that have not borne a child and the breasts that have never nursed.’

9Marksfan
Apr 28th 2008, 09:19 AM
You adressed the disciples asking if his parents sinned, but you didn't adress why the disciples asked if the man sinned, being born blind? How could he sin before he was born?

I guess they were probably thinking of these verses:-

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me. Ps 51:5 NKJV

The wicked are estranged from the womb; as soon as they are born, they go astray, speaking lies. Ps 58:3 NKJV

Revinius
Apr 28th 2008, 02:40 PM
Stop trying to make the Bible say what you want it to!

stillsearchin7
Apr 28th 2008, 03:11 PM
You're not searching for whatever I'd like to believe you're searching for. You're searching for whatever you're searching for--so what are you searching for? As for the generations question, it's already been answered.

Now come on, what are you searching for?

It's been answered, but not by you; and I've noticed that a couple of times. I ask you a question, then someone else answers and you say"That person already answered for me" or "I was gonna say that". You fall back on someone elses replies.

stillsearchin7
Apr 28th 2008, 03:14 PM
:) ok, all I can say now is (and is important) - do you think Jesus knew that a generation/s would be reading this 2000 years in the future ?
Yes right ?

...now ask yourself why He didn't say "That" generation ;)



Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, There are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death,
till they see the kingdom of God.
(Bold) "See", witness, observe, visualize, understand.
Now read on carefully
28 And it came to pass about eight days after these sayings, that he took with him Peter and John and James, and went up into the mountain to pray.

read on in the verses if you wish, I don't want to send this into another circle
:)

What kingdom did Peter, James, and John see in the mount?

stillsearchin7
Apr 28th 2008, 03:15 PM
In the beginning of the 24th chapter, they asked him about the end of the world, and his coming, so how can it be events that already happened? I must've have missed the end of the world.

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 03:18 PM
In the beginning of the 24th chapter, they asked him about the end of the world, and his coming, so how can it be events that already happened? I must've have missed the end of the world.

There were two questions asked in Matthew 24. "When will these things happen and when will be the end of the age." Both are answered in Matthew 24.

Here's a good verse to think about...

Heb 9:27
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
NASB


Once a man dies, he is judged. He doesn't get a second shot. ;)

moonglow
Apr 28th 2008, 03:42 PM
In the beginning of the 24th chapter, they asked him about the end of the world, and his coming, so how can it be events that already happened? I must've have missed the end of the world.

Actually it says:

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Word and age in this content mean the same thing. Its like to my son this town is HIS world. For the Jews, Jerusalem was there world...that is where all Jews went for all their festival, passover, and other celebrations...where they went to Sacrifice animals for their sins. It was their religious seat.

This age in bibical terms ...it was an expression...all the verses regarding prophetic wrathful events are expressed in symbolic terms which I have showed several times in other verses throughout the bible.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

AGE

aj:

A period of time or a dispensation. In the above sense the word occurs only once in the King James Version, in the sing, as the translation of dor, which means, properly, a "revolution" or "round of time," "a period," "an age" or "generation of man's life"; almost invariable translated "generation," "generations" (Job 8:8), "Inquire, I pray thee, of the former age"); we have the plural as the translation of aion, properly "duration," "the course or flow of time," "an age or period of the world," "the world" (Ephesians 2:7, "in the ages to come"; Colossians 1:26, "the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations," the English Revised Version, "from all ages," etc., the American Revised Version, margin, of geneai, "generations" (Ephesians 3:5 "generations," Ephesians 3:21, "unto all generations for ever and ever," Greek margin, "all the generations of the age of the ages"). "Ages is given in margin of the King James Version (Psalms 145:13; Isaiah 26:4, "the rock of ages").

We have "age" in the above sense (2 Esdras 3:18; Tobit 14:5; aion) "ages," aion (1 Esdras 4:40 (of Truth) "she is the strength," etc., "of all ages"), genea, the Revised Version (British and American), "generation" (The Wisdom of Solomon 7:27; 1 Macc 2:61); Ecclesiasticus 24:33, eis geneas aionon, "generations of ages"; The Wisdom of Solomon 14:6, "generations' (geneseos).

Revised Version has "age" for "world" (Hebrews 6:5); "ages" for "worlds" (the Revised Version, margin Hebrews 1:2; the American Revised Version, margin; compare 1 Timothy 1:17) (margin, "unto the ages of the ages"), "ages" for "world" (1 Corinthians 10:11; Hebrews 9:26). the English Revised Version has "all ages" for "the beginning of the world " (Ephesians 3:9, the American Standard Revised Version "for ages"); "king of the ages" for "king of saints" (Revelation 15:3, corrected text; margin, many ancient authorities read "nations"; Jeremiah 10:7).

The end of the age, meant the end of the old covenant...the old laws...Jesus brought the new convent...no more animal sacrifice were needed as He paid for our sins Himself.

Matthew 26:27-29

27 And he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it. He gave it to them and said, “Each of you drink from it, 28 for this is my blood, which confirms the covenant between God and his people. It is poured out as a sacrifice to forgive the sins of many. 29 Mark my words—I will not drink wine again until the day I drink it new with you in my Father’s Kingdom.”

Since the Jews (well not all but many) had rejected Him and this covenant and continued using the temple it had to be destroyed. The old ways were literally stopped and taken from them.

God bless

stillsearchin7
Apr 28th 2008, 03:58 PM
Actually it says:

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Word and age in this content mean the same thing. Its like to my son this town is HIS world. For the Jews, Jerusalem was there world...that is where all Jews went for all their festival, passover, and other celebrations...where they went to Sacrifice animals for their sins. It was their religious seat.

This age in bibical terms ...it was an expression...all the verses regarding prophetic wrathful events are expressed in symbolic terms which I have showed several times in other verses throughout the bible.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

AGE

aj:

A period of time or a dispensation. In the above sense the word occurs only once in the King James Version, in the sing, as the translation of dor, which means, properly, a "revolution" or "round of time," "a period," "an age" or "generation of man's life"; almost invariable translated "generation," "generations" (Job 8:8), "Inquire, I pray thee, of the former age"); we have the plural as the translation of aion, properly "duration," "the course or flow of time," "an age or period of the world," "the world" (Ephesians 2:7, "in the ages to come"; Colossians 1:26, "the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations," the English Revised Version, "from all ages," etc., the American Revised Version, margin, of geneai, "generations" (Ephesians 3:5 "generations," Ephesians 3:21, "unto all generations for ever and ever," Greek margin, "all the generations of the age of the ages"). "Ages is given in margin of the King James Version (Psalms 145:13; Isaiah 26:4, "the rock of ages").

We have "age" in the above sense (2 Esdras 3:18; Tobit 14:5; aion) "ages," aion (1 Esdras 4:40 (of Truth) "she is the strength," etc., "of all ages"), genea, the Revised Version (British and American), "generation" (The Wisdom of Solomon 7:27; 1 Macc 2:61); Ecclesiasticus 24:33, eis geneas aionon, "generations of ages"; The Wisdom of Solomon 14:6, "generations' (geneseos).

Revised Version has "age" for "world" (Hebrews 6:5); "ages" for "worlds" (the Revised Version, margin Hebrews 1:2; the American Revised Version, margin; compare 1 Timothy 1:17) (margin, "unto the ages of the ages"), "ages" for "world" (1 Corinthians 10:11; Hebrews 9:26). the English Revised Version has "all ages" for "the beginning of the world " (Ephesians 3:9, the American Standard Revised Version "for ages"); "king of the ages" for "king of saints" (Revelation 15:3, corrected text; margin, many ancient authorities read "nations"; Jeremiah 10:7).

The end of the age, meant the end of the old covenant...the old laws...Jesus brought the new convent...no more animal sacrifice were needed as He paid for our sins Himself.

Matthew 26:27-29

27 And he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it. He gave it to them and said, “Each of you drink from it, 28 for this is my blood, which confirms the covenant between God and his people. It is poured out as a sacrifice to forgive the sins of many. 29 Mark my words—I will not drink wine again until the day I drink it new with you in my Father’s Kingdom.”

Since the Jews (well not all but many) had rejected Him and this covenant and continued using the temple it had to be destroyed. The old ways were literally stopped and taken from them.

God bless

I see some of your quotes contain scriptures from the Apocrypha...do you read it?

moonglow
Apr 28th 2008, 04:13 PM
A long time ago I read a few books from it...right now though I can't say I remember much. While only the Catholic church believes these are inspired, I don't see anything wrong in reading them just like reading about our bible history or other resources out side of the bible to get a deeper understanding of the bible itself. For instance I have read information regarding the Cannaties that were found in archeology digs. The information they discovered about these people and their beliefs gives us a better insight as to why God did what He did in regards to them in the OT and also helps to prove the accuracy of the bible.

I have also read other writings that also are not considered inspired but written by people living around the the time of Jesus and even in the OT times..it gives us an idea of what others were thinking back then too. Doesn't mean I would take those and see them as God's Word though...many of them actually go against the bible.

stillsearchin7
Apr 28th 2008, 04:33 PM
I asked if you read the Apocrypha because if your able to, I want you to read Ecclesiasticus 41:8-9

Athanasius
Apr 28th 2008, 06:20 PM
It's been answered, but not by you; and I've noticed that a couple of times. I ask you a question, then someone else answers and you say"That person already answered for me" or "I was gonna say that". You fall back on someone elses replies.

Giving the same answer twice is redundant.


I asked if you read the Apocrypha because if your able to, I want you to read Ecclesiasticus 41:8-9

Ecclesiasticus 41:8-9
41:8. The children of sinners become children of abominations, and they that converse near the houses of the ungodly.
41:9. The inheritance of the children of sinners shall perish, and with their posterity shall be a perpetual reproach.

Alright so I've read it--and?
It happens that I also like to get all my information about Moses from the Qur'an, chapter 7. But having similar material doesn't mean it's 'inspired', does it? I have no problem with different religious systems having portions of the truth. . . But not the whole truth.

moonglow
Apr 28th 2008, 11:55 PM
Giving the same answer twice is redundant.



Ecclesiasticus 41:8-9
41:8. The children of sinners become children of abominations, and they that converse near the houses of the ungodly.
41:9. The inheritance of the children of sinners shall perish, and with their posterity shall be a perpetual reproach.

Alright so I've read it--and?
It happens that I also like to get all my information about Moses from the Qur'an, chapter 7. But having similar material doesn't mean it's 'inspired', does it? I have no problem with different religious systems having portions of the truth. . . But not the whole truth.

I got this:

Ecclesiasticus 41:8-9

8 Woe to you, godless men who have abandoned the law of God Most High! 9 When you are born, you are born to a curse, and when you die, a curse is your lot.

Maybe yours is in old english? :hmm:

Not sure if stillsearchin7 can post on this form yet or not.

We could debate what this means though if you want too...:lol::lol:

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 11:56 PM
You guys do realize that apocrypha is not inspired, right?

moonglow
Apr 29th 2008, 02:54 AM
You guys do realize that apocrypha is not inspired, right?

Oh yea..I said so in my post, that only the Catholic church think it is...so while I have read a little of it, I don't take it anymore seriously then gnoish wittings...which I can't spell...:B Well hopefully you know what I mean.

I have no idea where stillsearching was going with this...

Athanasius
Apr 29th 2008, 02:55 AM
I got this:

Ecclesiasticus 41:8-9

8 Woe to you, godless men who have abandoned the law of God Most High! 9 When you are born, you are born to a curse, and when you die, a curse is your lot.

Maybe yours is in old english? :hmm:

Not sure if stillsearchin7 can post on this form yet or not.

We could debate what this means though if you want too...:lol::lol:

Wow mine says something totally different. . .He can't post here yet, no.

moonglow
Apr 29th 2008, 03:00 AM
I got mine off of CARM website...:hmm: