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TexasBeliever
Apr 24th 2008, 09:32 PM
Hello everyone:

I forgot to mention this in my introduction. I was pretrib for years (that was all that was out there at the time) but after rereading the Bible trying to put myself in the position of someone who had never heard of pretrib, I came to the conclusion that a straight reading of the black and white text was clearly posttrib.

Also I kept an open mind and sought out conversations with believers who were not pretrib to get their take on the scriptures.

It took me a year to come to terms with the future that lies before us.

Anyway, just wanted to say I'm looking forward to meeting you. :cool:

BrckBrln
Apr 24th 2008, 10:02 PM
Congrats. I too am a recent former pre trib believer since that was what I always taught. After actually reading about post trib and doing my own reading of the scriptures I converted and I haven't looked back.

Saved7
Apr 24th 2008, 10:07 PM
yup...I did the same thing, after spending my early years as a pretribber, I found myself a little confused about it when I gave it some real thought. So I prayed about that, and asked God to help me just read it and see what HE shows me. Just take it at face value and see where that leads me. It was quite plain to me right away; though admittedly, it was difficult to accept. But now I am posttrib, and quite content with it.:saint:

Saved!
Apr 24th 2008, 11:27 PM
I was brought up pre-trib and thought that went without question. I am still surrounded by pre-tribbers...

After my own study I became convinced that post-trib was the correct interpertation.

I have to admit, I found a lot of comfort in believing all those years that the rapture would spare me the trib....and was quite disappointed that I might have to endure it. However, I would rather know it was a possiblity than to have it catch me by surprise.

Welcome!

Cyberseeker
Apr 24th 2008, 11:37 PM
Ditto to all the above posts.

I sometimes describe myself as pre-wrath, or 9/10ths trib-rap but post-trib will do. :D

In addition to that I have also canned a few other sacred cows as well.

markedward
Apr 25th 2008, 02:12 AM
I was a pre-trib pre-millenial despensationalist futurist.

Now I'm a post-trib amillenial preterist.

Pretty ridiculous change.

danield
Apr 25th 2008, 02:18 AM
I personally read the bible before I ever heard of any camp. It was so straight forward pointing towards a post trib belief that I really struggled trying to understand how someone could believe that Christ was coming 3 times to earth ( 1st being his Living testimony, 2nd being the rapture, and then finally 3rd being the judgment day). There are so many other verses that point towards a simple second coming that I do not understand why it is preached any other way. But we have got to realize that reading the Bible with out interference has its advantages.

Pastors or media personalities really can’t talk against the popular pre trib belief because it makes for a more difficult journey for their believers. People are not going to pay for something that they do not want to hear, and with the difficult meaning of some end time scriptures, it makes for a perfect fit and a really great story. If I could write a fictitious script for Hollywood, the pretrib rapture message would be a huge hit. I guess that is why the left behind series was such a big hit. I have never seen them myself.

I just personally try and read the bible and take wisdom from it. Interpret it with out the noise from outside influences to sway me in one direction or another. I pray to the Lord and ask him to give me wisdom to see his will so I can only assume that I am seeing the truth.

Anytime I get confused about someone’s preaching, I go back to the Bible and read passages where I know Jesus talks about things.

Matthew 25:31-34 31 ¶ "But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world.

Take this passage.. if there was a pre trib rapture Christ would have told us plainly that people who were previously raptured would be along side him with the angels. But it doesn’t, and it goes into detail that he will judge those who are on earth. There will be some who are worthy of the kingdom of God and some that are not. Now who am I to believe…? Christ or a guy who wrote a book and made millions off their royalties, or maybe someone in a TV ministry who has a huge interest in giving a completely positive position about the end of times. Heck chances are that it will not happen in their lifetime so they have a great chance to not be wrong.

As for me, I am going to put my faith in Christ whether I have to endure persecution or not! He has hardened my faith in him to a level that is unbreakable. And if I saw things come to pass like I believe they will, all it will do is strengthen my faith even more because I know he is coming for us!

God Bless.

BrckBrln
Apr 25th 2008, 02:33 AM
I was a pre-trib pre-millenial despensationalist futurist.

It seems we all start that way, doesn't it? :)


Now I'm a post-trib amillenial preterist.

I'm a post trib, either amill or premil (haven't really looked into it as much as I should), and I'm more of a historicist.[/quote]

ServantoftheKing
Apr 25th 2008, 02:58 AM
I started out only ever hearing the pre-trib arguments. Then recently was introduced to the Scriptures from the post-trib point of view. It seems that after carefully reading the Scriptures, the post-trib gathering of the saints is what is clearly taught in the Bible. To me it seems so clear that I am amazed how I never saw it before.

ServantoftheKing

Alyssa S
Apr 25th 2008, 03:05 AM
I have been a believer for 10 years and was always a pre-tribber until this last year. I met a guy who was writing a book on The Resurrection, in addition to some others. In our discussion of the modern church and different popular beliefs amongst today's theologians, he kept touching on how today's "teaching on the Resurrection of the Dead" is not what was believed by the earliest church fathers. He said it had become such a well accepted and popular doctrine and he radically disagreed with it. Since we talked about so many topics in our conversations, somehow we failed to discuss his belief about the Rapture and Resurrection in detail.

I kept thinking to myself in my time alone, "What in the world is he talking about??? What is being taught about the Resurrection and the Rapture that is so off base??" I decided to crack open my bible and just read...laying aside any preconceived ideas I already had. Since I really didn't know why I believed what I believed regarding the Pre-Trib doctrine, I think it helped me in seeing the Scriptures for what I believe they truly say.

It was as clear as day to me as I read Matthew 24 and 25... and 1 Thess and 2 Thess. Upon finishing my study, I immediately wrote my friend a long letter explaining everything I had just learned and he replied with, "The Holy Spirit is showing you what he showed me 15 years ago!!" It just so happened that many of the things I had written to him were the very things in his book that he was about to give me. COOL.

Most all of my family and friends are pre-tribbers, who are AWESOME servants of the Lord, but by the time "I" get done with them... I'll have them on THIS (Back) side of the tribulation!! haha!! :lol:

danield
Apr 25th 2008, 03:47 AM
You know I think in order to be a pre trib believer you have to read into scripture instead of letting the scripture speak to you! Also, I do not get upset with people who do not hold my view about end times because it is not my plan but God’s. And if I am wrong, it is not a big deal! He is in control not me. But being post trib, it all sure seems to fit rather neatly with no loose ends to explain away things over and over.

RevLogos
Apr 25th 2008, 04:23 AM
You know I think in order to be a pre trib believer you have to read into scripture instead of letting the scripture speak to you! Also, I do not get upset with people who do not hold my view about end times because it is not my plan but God’s. And if I am wrong, it is not a big deal! He is in control not me. But being post trib, it all sure seems to fit rather neatly with no loose ends to explain away things over and over.

I'm not upset with other people's views either. But I do have a concern that when the AC is revealed, the pre-tribers will be in denial. It can't be the AC because there has been no rapture. Then when really tough decisions have to be made, the pre-tribers may not see the beast for what it is.

Regarding Matthew, I recommend reading Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse (almost all of Luke 21). Luke is a little clearer about how bad things are going to get before any rapture, and he is very clear Christians will be busy right up until the end. The natural disasters and persecutions of Christians all must come before any rapture. There is no way to rationalize a rapture before the Second Coming.

danield
Apr 25th 2008, 04:47 AM
Luke 21:5-38 5 ¶ Some of his disciples began talking about the majestic stonework of the Temple and the memorial decorations on the walls. But Jesus said, 6 "The time is coming when all these things will be completely demolished. Not one stone will be left on top of another!" 7 "Teacher," they asked, "when will all this happen? What sign will show us that these things are about to take place?" 8 He replied, "Don't let anyone mislead you, for many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Messiah,' and saying, 'The time has come!' But don't believe them. 9 And when you hear of wars and insurrections, don't panic. Yes, these things must take place first, but the end won't follow immediately." 10 ¶ Then he added, "Nation will go to war against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and there will be famines and plagues in many lands, and there will be terrifying things and great miraculous signs from heaven. 12 "But before all this occurs, there will be a time of great persecution. You will be dragged into synagogues and prisons, and you will stand trial before kings and governors because you are my followers. 13 But this will be your opportunity to tell them about me. 14 So don't worry in advance about how to answer the charges against you, 15 for I will give you the right words and such wisdom that none of your opponents will be able to reply or refute you! 16 Even those closest to you-- your parents, brothers, relatives, and friends-- will betray you. They will even kill some of you. 17 And everyone will hate you because you are my followers. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish! 19 By standing firm, you will win your souls. 20 ¶ "And when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then you will know that the time of its destruction has arrived. 21 Then those in Judea must flee to the hills. Those in Jerusalem must get out, and those out in the country should not return to the city. 22 For those will be days of God's vengeance, and the prophetic words of the Scriptures will be fulfilled. 23 How terrible it will be for pregnant women and for nursing mothers in those days. For there will be disaster in the land and great anger against this people. 24 They will be killed by the sword or sent away as captives to all the nations of the world. And Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the period of the Gentiles comes to an end. 25 ¶ "And there will be strange signs in the sun, moon, and stars. And here on earth the nations will be in turmoil, perplexed by the roaring seas and strange tides. 26 People will be terrified at what they see coming upon the earth, for the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then everyone will see the Son of Man coming on a cloud with power and great glory. 28 So when all these things begin to happen, stand and look up, for your salvation is near!" 29 ¶ Then he gave them this illustration: "Notice the fig tree, or any other tree. 30 When the leaves come out, you know without being told that summer is near. 31 In the same way, when you see all these things taking place, you can know that the Kingdom of God is near. 32 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things have taken place. 33 Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear. 34 ¶ "Watch out! Don't let your hearts be dulled by carousing and drunkenness, and by the worries of this life. Don't let that day catch you unaware, 35 ¶ like a trap. For that day will come upon everyone living on the earth. 36 Keep alert at all times. And pray that you might be strong enough to escape these coming horrors and stand before the Son of Man." 37 ¶ Every day Jesus went to the Temple to teach, and each evening he returned to spend the night on the Mount of Olives. 38 The crowds gathered at the Temple early each morning to hear him.

I agree revolvr!

dworthington
Apr 25th 2008, 11:27 AM
Howdy Texasbeliever, I am still pre-trib....but regardless of one's view point today is another day closer.

quiet dove
Apr 25th 2008, 04:58 PM
You know I think in order to be a pre trib believer you have to read into scripture instead of letting the scripture speak to you!

But see, this is a matter of your opinion. Everyone, including you, could have this said to them by one of another camp!!


Also, I do not get upset with people who do not hold my view about end times because it is not my plan but God’s. And if I am wrong, it is not a big deal! He is in control not me. But being post trib, it all sure seems to fit rather neatly with no loose ends to explain away things over and over.
I do not get upset with those who disagree with me either, however, I do not accuse them of "reading into scripture instead of letting the scripture speak them" either.

Cyberseeker
Apr 25th 2008, 07:26 PM
But see, this is a matter of your opinion. Everyone, including you, could have this said to them by one of another camp!!

I do not get upset with those who disagree with me either, however, I do not accuse them of "reading into scripture instead of letting the scripture speak them" either.


For a dove you're quite a fighter QD. :lol:

TexasBeliever
Apr 25th 2008, 08:43 PM
Amen dworthington!

Thank you everyone for sharing your thoughts and saying 'hello.'

I spent a couple of years on another board trying to show my pretrib friends why I was now posttrib. I'm pretty much debated out. What I need is conversation with those who have seen the light. (no disrespect to pretribbers intended).

I was pretrib for over 15 years before I started looking into the other rapture beliefs. And then almost another 5 of not knowing WHAT to think and praying for the truth; wherever that led me.

So everyone is on the schedule that God has them on I guess.

Very, very happy to be here. God bless us, EVERYONE!

danield
Apr 25th 2008, 11:37 PM
Quiet Dove I am sorry that I do not feel the same as you about being pre trib. I do not know how someone can read Christ’s passages and draw a conclusion that there is a pre trib rapture. I have tried really really hard to understand that POV, and have heard things like why would God allow his people to go through the tribulation if he loved his followers. And it dawns on me how could they not know that Christ deeply loves his followers even if they had to endure some hardships on his behalf.

It is like training players on a team and putting them in a pivotal play that will win the game for a school. Yes they had to go through some really hard practices. Yes they had to make great sacrifices in their life to condition themselves to even be in the game, but when it came time for them to win the event.. They were ready and are extremely glad and overjoyed to give their all for the cause.

You see I think Christ loves you dearly even though he does not send rain on you crops! I know he wants us to live a wonderful life filled with great joy, but there are times when things just do not go perfect in life. And it is Christ’s that gives us strength to endure these very times. (nothing else but only Christ)

Matthew 7:24-27 24 ¶ "Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock. 25 Though the rain comes in torrents and the floodwaters rise and the winds beat against that house, it won't collapse because it is built on bedrock. 26 But anyone who hears my teaching and ignores it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on sand. 27 When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against that house, it will collapse with a mighty crash."

Even the tribulation..


As far as my point about reading into scripture instead of letting scripture to speak to you. I am so sorry that this statement upset you. Please know that I love you and do not want to hurt you in any way. But when Christ tells me he is going to have a second coming many times in scripture. I can not interpret that as he is coming 3 times no matter what anybody tells me. It says in the last days people will be preaching many things so I just take what Christ’s says verbatim. And you know there are so many ministries preaching many things this day and age. Please know I am not calling believing in another end times POV sinful because it isn’t! But it still does not stop me from looking at that POV and wondering how can they get that Christ is coming to earth 3 times when Christ says he has a second coming. I have a simple mind (.

Please understand that I have left open the possibility that I am wrong. I can not know the mind of God. I can only have patience to see his plan unfold. But if that plan unfolds with me in the tribulation, I am not going in that tribulation with my lamp half full of oil . My faith is going to need all the oil so I can get to endure the suffering that it will take to meet Christ at the end. I do hope and pray that you are right, but I have my doubts about the popular ministries that are being sung from every profitable pulpit in America.

God bless and all my love!!

PS: please forgive me for not being more loving in my comments.

PSS: I have no idea how to hyperlink a single post. I had to copy and paste it. But there was suppose to be a hyper link by the word oil taking you to these comments. I am sorry to be so stupid!!!! :confused:blushsad:


Matthew 25:1-13 NLT Matthew 25:1 ¶ "The Kingdom of Heaven can be illustrated by the story of ten bridesmaids who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 The five who were foolish didn't take enough olive oil for their lamps, 4 but the other five were wise enough to take along extra oil. 5 When the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep. 6 "At midnight they were roused by the shout, 'Look, the bridegroom is coming! Come out and meet him!' 7 "All the bridesmaids got up and prepared their lamps. 8 Then the five foolish ones asked the others, 'Please give us some of your oil because our lamps are going out.' 9 "But the others replied, 'We don't have enough for all of us. Go to a shop and buy some for yourselves.' 10 "But while they were gone to buy oil, the bridegroom came. Then those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was locked. 11 Later, when the other five bridesmaids returned, they stood outside, calling, 'Lord! Lord! Open the door for us!' 12 "But he called back, 'Believe me, I don't know you!' 13 "So you, too, must keep watch! For you do not know the day or hour of my return.

I think this passage refers to the end times because it follows such a passionate passage about his second coming.

I see the first 5 foolish virgins as people who believe in Christ and love Christ but lack the oil (Love and faith) to make it through the tribulation when there is great tribulation and persecution. He calls them foolish because they believe in foolish things. I do not want to say what is foolish because it will offend some Christians.

I think the 5 virgins are those who love and believe in Christ and have great faith in Christ no matter what happens. They are not foolish as some young wives are about their marriage. Their union with Christ will come with persecution, but they will love Christ no matter what they have to endure.

The marriage feast is the return of the lord of his second coming.

The lamp is a representation of making it through life when times are dark... The tribulation is a very dark and hard times for us Christians. We will need a full lamp of love and faith to endure to the end for our lord and savior!


And the five bridesmades who are knocking at his door at the second coming are the ones who denied Christ during the tribulation or was out "looking for more love for christ" when times got tough. They wanted to be married to Christ, but he would not let them in.

God bless!

stillforgiven
Apr 26th 2008, 01:54 AM
Hello everyone:

I forgot to mention this in my introduction. I was pretrib for years (that was all that was out there at the time) but after rereading the Bible trying to put myself in the position of someone who had never heard of pretrib, I came to the conclusion that a straight reading of the black and white text was clearly posttrib.

Also I kept an open mind and sought out conversations with believers who were not pretrib to get their take on the scriptures.

It took me a year to come to terms with the future that lies before us.

Anyway, just wanted to say I'm looking forward to meeting you. :cool:

I usually stay out of the arguments, so all I'm saying is pretty much a "me too". Once I started reading the Scriptures for myself, I just couldn't keep reconciling them with a pre-trib belief.

wpm
Apr 26th 2008, 02:15 AM
Hello everyone:

I forgot to mention this in my introduction. I was pretrib for years (that was all that was out there at the time) but after rereading the Bible trying to put myself in the position of someone who had never heard of pretrib, I came to the conclusion that a straight reading of the black and white text was clearly posttrib.

Also I kept an open mind and sought out conversations with believers who were not pretrib to get their take on the scriptures.

It took me a year to come to terms with the future that lies before us.

Anyway, just wanted to say I'm looking forward to meeting you. :cool:

Me too. I can't see how one would arrive at Pretrib without it being taught. I am being honest. I was brought up that way, my dad was a Pretrib Pastor, but my brother (who is an evangelist) and I (who am a Pastor) both moved to Posttrib through our own separate studies.

Where Pretrib falls down is that there is not one single passage (clear or obscure) that suggests (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a Coming of Christ. I have asked long and hard on this forum (and others) and am still to find the elusive proof-text. Until I do, I will remain Posttrib.

Paul

quiet dove
Apr 26th 2008, 05:06 AM
Quiet Dove I am sorry that I do not feel the same as you about being pre trib. I do not know how someone can read Christ’s passages and draw a conclusion that there is a pre trib rapture.

I understand that you did not intend insult or injury here. :)

My point was just what you said, but in my case, I do not understand how others read scripture and see post trib or amil. (other than much conversation with them I have come to understand how they view different passages). But I just accept that they see it differently without questioning their integrity with reading the scriptures.


PSS: I have no idea how to hyperlink a single post. I had to copy and paste it. But there was suppose to be a hyper link by the word oil taking you to these comments. I am sorry to be so stupid!!!! It took me a while to figure out how to do this. If you want to link a thread. (Usually I have several windows open, like the one here, and then the one I want to link)

--Open up the thread you want to link
--Copy the URL (http:www. whatever)
--Go back to the post you are working on and want to put the link in and click on the little earth with the paper clip looking thingy. It is underneath the white smiley, then with the cursor in the text box push Ctrl+V and it will paste the URL in the text box.( I dont type url's, forget that!! I would never have a link that works)

If you want to just link one post. In the post you want to make the link go to, click on the number of the post; it will open a page with just that post; then do the same thing as above; copy the url and paste it in the text box.


YOu can also type what ever you want, highlight it, then click on the earth link picture thingy, paste the url in text box.

Post 18 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1617319&postcount=18)

You can write whatever you want like this (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1617319&postcount=18)

And you may have already known most of that but just in case I tried to cover it all. It took me a while to figure out how not to have to type urls and use the Ctrl+V. I can be a little slow as I am technically challenged.

TexasBeliever
Apr 26th 2008, 12:23 PM
Paul

Thanks for sharing. It must have been difficult to come to the conclusion that posttrib was right when your father saw it as pretrib.

I consider myself almost a walking miracle as far as me being a student of prophecy. I was raised RC and there is absolutely no study of it for the most part. I also realized that there are many, many man-made beliefs in the RCC that have no biblical basis, but are rather assumptions. For me, that was one of the things about pretrib, IMO, that kept me searching. I had to 'assume' too much to be pretrib any longer. (I would like to add that although the RCC has alot of 'tacked-on dogma', all of the catholics that I knew loved the Lord and believed that they were saved by Christ's sacrificial death.)

I consider myself simply a bible-believing Christian because no church was involved with my studies.

It is very liberating not to be part of any paticular Christian "denomination" but simply a believer in Christ.

PS (I'm not looking to get into a debate with anyone about the RCC church and weather or not someone thinks they are saved. That is for another thread.)

wpm
Apr 26th 2008, 02:56 PM
Paul

Thanks for sharing. It must have been difficult to come to the conclusion that posttrib was right when your father saw it as pretrib.

I consider myself almost a walking miracle as far as me being a student of prophecy. I was raised RC and there is absolutely no study of it for the most part. I also realized that there are many, many man-made beliefs in the RCC that have no biblical basis, but are rather assumptions. For me, that was one of the things about pretrib, IMO, that kept me searching. I had to 'assume' too much to be pretrib any longer. (I would like to add that although the RCC has alot of 'tacked-on dogma', all of the catholics that I knew loved the Lord and believed that they were saved by Christ's sacrificial death.)

I consider myself simply a bible-believing Christian because no church was involved with my studies.

It is very liberating not to be part of any paticular Christian "denomination" but simply a believer in Christ.

PS (I'm not looking to get into a debate with anyone about the RCC church and weather or not someone thinks they are saved. That is for another thread.)

My wife was brought up RC. She never remembers being taught about being born again. All her friends were like her, they lived for the devil all week and went to mass on Sunday to ask for forgiveness. As a Pastor that is my normal experience with dealing with RCs. I am not saying there are no saved ones, but I have met very few. In Ireland Catholicism is corrupt. They are the biggest enemies of the true Gospel. Thankfully the RCC in Ireland is falling apart with the 100s of Paedophile priests.

In closing, I would be interested on your take: What do you think will happen when Jesus comes? What happens to believers? What happens to unbelievers?

Paul

heart hammer
Apr 26th 2008, 03:27 PM
May I make a point which could appear to be off topic? Ok thank you lol.
I was in the same boat as everyone else falling hook line and sinker for the left behind series and the whole Pre-trib thing. I came out of that. It was actually in my attempt to refute a post trib believer. When faced with scripture we have two choices. We can accept what the Word says (and yes the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of it) or we can choose to believe what we have been taught. When i originally came out of the pre-trib teaching I was sensitive to the view point of pre-tribbers because I knew how hard I had fought against it. I empathized with them. After all it is not a salvation issue....or is it?

Consider this seriously....The main reason that many cling to the pre-trib position is because they do not like to think of God as being cruel enough to put them through the tribulation period. I however do not believe it to be a cruel characteristic of God to allow us to go through tribulation at all...indeed I grow closer to Him through the trials. The truth is God uses tribulation and trials to purify us and set us apart as witnesses of Him. Without trial we become complacent (this is the believer's lullaby).
We have to first realize that we are the ones for which the tribulation is happening. This is how the chaff will be separated from the wheat. This is where the shaking of not the earth only but also of the heavens (this verse is in Hebrews) happens. This is where the falling away happens. This is where it shall be determined whether we have a love of the truth or "..will believe a lie..." God has promised tribulation, and persecution and troubles and the hatred of the world to all those who Hold Fast to Christ and who love not their lives unto the death. The death of His saints iis precious in His sight and if it is by the hand of the ungodly then those will be judged according to the testimony of the martyrs which they have slain. Jesus said that the blood of all the generations from Able down to Zacharias who was slain between to door and the altar would be upon this generation. Much as I am sure that all the generations from Stephen down to martyrs in Darfur will be upon the last generation.

What it boils down to is this would the Lord you serve and believe in put you through the trib period to bring you closer to Him and to gather you to Himself or will He gather us up and get us out of the way in a rapture event and then spend 7yrs pouring out His wrath through the handiwork of Satan on those left behind?

There is only one way to go with this. One is truth one is a lie. Why do we believe what we believe? You cannot serve two masters you will either cling to the one and hate the other or you will love the one and dispise the other. Remember that Jesus spoke with authority. What do we have but the authority of scripture and the witness of the Spirit.
Take Care and God Bless

Alyssa S
Apr 26th 2008, 05:29 PM
May I make a point which could appear to be off topic? Ok thank you lol.
I was in the same boat as everyone else falling hook line and sinker for the left behind series and the whole Pre-trib thing. I came out of that. It was actually in my attempt to refute a post trib believer. When faced with scripture we have two choices. We can accept what the Word says (and yes the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of it) or we can choose to believe what we have been taught. When i originally came out of the pre-trib teaching I was sensitive to the view point of pre-tribbers because I knew how hard I had fought against it. I empathized with them. After all it is not a salvation issue....or is it?

Consider this seriously....The main reason that many cling to the pre-trib position is because they do not like to think of God as being cruel enough to put them through the tribulation period. I however do not believe it to be a cruel characteristic of God to allow us to go through tribulation at all...indeed I grow closer to Him through the trials. The truth is God uses tribulation and trials to purify us and set us apart as witnesses of Him. Without trial we become complacent (this is the believer's lullaby).
We have to first realize that we are the ones for which the tribulation is happening. This is how the chaff will be separated from the wheat. This is where the shaking of not the earth only but also of the heavens (this verse is in Hebrews) happens. This is where the falling away happens. This is where it shall be determined whether we have a love of the truth or "..will believe a lie..." God has promised tribulation, and persecution and troubles and the hatred of the world to all those who Hold Fast to Christ and who love not their lives unto the death. The death of His saints iis precious in His sight and if it is by the hand of the ungodly then those will be judged according to the testimony of the martyrs which they have slain. Jesus said that the blood of all the generations from Able down to Zacharias who was slain between to door and the altar would be upon this generation. Much as I am sure that all the generations from Stephen down to martyrs in Darfur will be upon the last generation.

What it boils down to is this would the Lord you serve and believe in put you through the trib period to bring you closer to Him and to gather you to Himself or will He gather us up and get us out of the way in a rapture event and then spend 7yrs pouring out His wrath through the handiwork of Satan on those left behind?

There is only one way to go with this. One is truth one is a lie. Why do we believe what we believe? You cannot serve two masters you will either cling to the one and hate the other or you will love the one and dispise the other. Remember that Jesus spoke with authority. What do we have but the authority of scripture and the witness of the Spirit.
Take Care and God Bless

WOW! That's some serious food for thought!
Good post, friend. BTW, I love that.... "the believer's lullaby." COOL... Did you make that up? OR am I "out of the loop?" haha!

Thanks! God bless....

quiet dove
Apr 26th 2008, 06:49 PM
May I make a point which could appear to be off topic? Ok thank you lol.
I was in the same boat as everyone else falling hook line and sinker for the left behind series and the whole Pre-trib thing. I came out of that. It was actually in my attempt to refute a post trib believer. When faced with scripture we have two choices. We can accept what the Word says (and yes the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of it) or we can choose to believe what we have been taught. When i originally came out of the pre-trib teaching I was sensitive to the view point of pre-tribbers because I knew how hard I had fought against it. I empathized with them. After all it is not a salvation issue....or is it?

Consider this seriously....The main reason that many cling to the pre-trib position is because they do not like to think of God as being cruel enough to put them through the tribulation period. I however do not believe it to be a cruel characteristic of God to allow us to go through tribulation at all...indeed I grow closer to Him through the trials. The truth is God uses tribulation and trials to purify us and set us apart as witnesses of Him. Without trial we become complacent (this is the believer's lullaby).
We have to first realize that we are the ones for which the tribulation is happening. This is how the chaff will be separated from the wheat. This is where the shaking of not the earth only but also of the heavens (this verse is in Hebrews) happens. This is where the falling away happens. This is where it shall be determined whether we have a love of the truth or "..will believe a lie..." God has promised tribulation, and persecution and troubles and the hatred of the world to all those who Hold Fast to Christ and who love not their lives unto the death. The death of His saints iis precious in His sight and if it is by the hand of the ungodly then those will be judged according to the testimony of the martyrs which they have slain. Jesus said that the blood of all the generations from Able down to Zacharias who was slain between to door and the altar would be upon this generation. Much as I am sure that all the generations from Stephen down to martyrs in Darfur will be upon the last generation.

What it boils down to is this would the Lord you serve and believe in put you through the trib period to bring you closer to Him and to gather you to Himself or will He gather us up and get us out of the way in a rapture event and then spend 7yrs pouring out His wrath through the handiwork of Satan on those left behind?

There is only one way to go with this. One is truth one is a lie. Why do we believe what we believe? You cannot serve two masters you will either cling to the one and hate the other or you will love the one and dispise the other. Remember that Jesus spoke with authority. What do we have but the authority of scripture and the witness of the Spirit.
Take Care and God Bless

You should sit down, as I am sure this will come as a big shock. BUT MANY OF US PRE TRIBBERS BELIEVE IT BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT WE BELIEVE SCRIPTURE TEACHES. NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD NOT ALLOWING TRIBULATION IN OUR LIVES OR THE LEFT BEHIND SERIES.

Be careful what you call a lie!!


The truth is God uses tribulation and trials to purify us and set us apart as witnesses of Him.My question would be this, it is not a new question, I have asked it many times here. What about all the Christians, through out history,THAT DID NOT SUFFER PERSECUTION AT ALL! much less go through the GT. Are they not purified? If that is the purpose of the GT are they not purified?

Is daily building a relationship with Jesus, daily dependence upon Him, trusting, seeking, learning; daily walking in the Spirit-not good enough? The Holy Spirit teaching us, guiding us, showing us all things-not good enough? daily learning to and giving our will over to Him; not good enough? Is Jesus not capable of refining the willing believers heart heart good enough without persecution?

You are giving persecution credit for doing what only Jesus can do!


What it boils down to is this would the Lord you serve and believe in put you through the trib periodGee, lets see. Would I trust a God who allows me to loose a child, be sick, loose a job that provides for my family, takes away all my pretty things (even without there being a GT that everyone suffers in). Or do I just have to trust a God that would allow me, along with everyone else, to go through the GT?

But I still have just the one question. Are believers who died without suffering persecution, not purified?

Your right, no one can serve to masters, and if you are correct and this is a salvation issue, you are banking your soul on you being right. Personally, I am banking my soul in the nail scarred hands of Jesus Christ.

wpm
Apr 26th 2008, 06:52 PM
My question would be this, it is not a new question, I have asked it many times here. What about all the Christians, through out history,THAT DID NOT SUFFER PERSECUTION AT ALL! much less go through the GT. Are they not purified? If that is the purpose of the GT are they not purified?

Is daily building a relationship with Jesus, daily dependence upon Him, trusting, seeking, learning; daily walking in the Spirit-not good enough? The Holy Spirit teaching us, guiding us, showing us all things-not good enough? daily learning to and giving our will over to Him; not good enough? Is Jesus not capable of refining the willing believers heart heart good enough without persecution?

You are giving persecution credit for doing what only Jesus can do!

But I still have just the one question. Are believers who died without suffering persecution, not purified?

2 Timothy 3:12 declares, “all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.”

Jesus said in John 16:33, “In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”

Acts 14:22 says, “we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”

Paul

Alyssa S
Apr 26th 2008, 07:35 PM
You should sit down, as I am sure this will come as a big shock. BUT MANY OF US PRE TRIBBERS BELIEVE IT BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT WE BELIEVE SCRIPTURE TEACHES. NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD NOT ALLOWING TRIBULATION IN OUR LIVES OR THE LEFT BEHIND SERIES.

Be careful what you call a lie!!

My question would be this, it is not a new question, I have asked it many times here. What about all the Christians, through out history,THAT DID NOT SUFFER PERSECUTION AT ALL! much less go through the GT. Are they not purified? If that is the purpose of the GT are they not purified?

Is daily building a relationship with Jesus, daily dependence upon Him, trusting, seeking, learning; daily walking in the Spirit-not good enough? The Holy Spirit teaching us, guiding us, showing us all things-not good enough? daily learning to and giving our will over to Him; not good enough? Is Jesus not capable of refining the willing believers heart heart good enough without persecution?

You are giving persecution credit for doing what only Jesus can do!

Gee, lets see. Would I trust a God who allows me to loose a child, be sick, loose a job that provides for my family, takes away all my pretty things (even without there being a GT that everyone suffers in). Or do I just have to trust a God that would allow me, along with everyone else, to go through the GT?

But I still have just the one question. Are believers who died without suffering persecution, not purified?

Your right, no one can serve to masters, and if you are correct and this is a salvation issue, you are banking your soul on you being right. Personally, I am banking my soul in the nail scarred hands of Jesus Christ.

QD, I think you are right and I think heart hammer also has a point. I understand what you are saying. But heart hammer did say "MANY" believe this way... Not ALL believe this way.



Consider this seriously....The main reason that many cling to the pre-trib position is because they do not like to think of God as being cruel enough to put them through the tribulation period.


And I have to agree with that. MANY today say these very words to me when we discuss the tribulation. And I am one of them that used to believe that way. But, I understand and agree that there are also MANY who have studied the Scriptures and believe there still to be a Pre-Trib.

heart hammer is also right in saying that one of these beliefs is a LIE. They both cannot be true can they? But I agree with what you are saying that to be purified, it is by the BLOOD of Christ. It is about what Jesus did FOR us. But does not that purification process continue to work through the refiners fire and the various trials one is placed in? MANY times, more often than not, as the history of all the saints in Scripture will prove, the Lord will allow Trial, Tribulations, Valleys, Deserts, Imprisonment, Loneliness, Homelessness, Ridicule, Waiting, Chastisement, Wildernesses, and Brokenness to Refine the believer as they grow becoming more like him. This is a continuous theme throughout Scripture. And it even continued to happen after Jesus ascended to Heaven as evidenced by Paul's persecutions as well as the disciples.

But there ARE a few that seem to go through life with little trial and valleys. What about the child that dies in a car accident at a very early age who never knew what trials were? She/He of course sleeps in the arms of Jesus. So, I think you have a point... and I think heart hammer has a very good one as well.

God bless...
Alyssa

cwb
Apr 26th 2008, 07:55 PM
May I make a point which could appear to be off topic? Ok thank you lol.
I was in the same boat as everyone else falling hook line and sinker for the left behind series and the whole Pre-trib thing. I came out of that. It was actually in my attempt to refute a post trib believer. When faced with scripture we have two choices. We can accept what the Word says (and yes the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of it) or we can choose to believe what we have been taught. When i originally came out of the pre-trib teaching I was sensitive to the view point of pre-tribbers because I knew how hard I had fought against it. I empathized with them. After all it is not a salvation issue....or is it?

Consider this seriously....The main reason that many cling to the pre-trib position is because they do not like to think of God as being cruel enough to put them through the tribulation period. I however do not believe it to be a cruel characteristic of God to allow us to go through tribulation at all...indeed I grow closer to Him through the trials. The truth is God uses tribulation and trials to purify us and set us apart as witnesses of Him. Without trial we become complacent (this is the believer's lullaby).
We have to first realize that we are the ones for which the tribulation is happening. This is how the chaff will be separated from the wheat. This is where the shaking of not the earth only but also of the heavens (this verse is in Hebrews) happens. This is where the falling away happens. This is where it shall be determined whether we have a love of the truth or "..will believe a lie..." God has promised tribulation, and persecution and troubles and the hatred of the world to all those who Hold Fast to Christ and who love not their lives unto the death. The death of His saints iis precious in His sight and if it is by the hand of the ungodly then those will be judged according to the testimony of the martyrs which they have slain. Jesus said that the blood of all the generations from Able down to Zacharias who was slain between to door and the altar would be upon this generation. Much as I am sure that all the generations from Stephen down to martyrs in Darfur will be upon the last generation.

What it boils down to is this would the Lord you serve and believe in put you through the trib period to bring you closer to Him and to gather you to Himself or will He gather us up and get us out of the way in a rapture event and then spend 7yrs pouring out His wrath through the handiwork of Satan on those left behind?

There is only one way to go with this. One is truth one is a lie. Why do we believe what we believe? You cannot serve two masters you will either cling to the one and hate the other or you will love the one and dispise the other. Remember that Jesus spoke with authority. What do we have but the authority of scripture and the witness of the Spirit.
Take Care and God Bless

I have been a pre-tribber for about 18 years and have not yet heard another pre-tribber say they are pre-trib for the reasons you mentioned. It is funny I am always hearing post-tribbers say about pre-tribbers that they are pre-trib because they do not want any trials or persecution in their lives. Yet I have yet to hear even one pre-tribber say that is why they are pre-trib. Hence, my conclusion is that this is merely a bunch of rhetoric being put out there by post-tribbers.

heart hammer
Apr 26th 2008, 08:14 PM
You miss understand to an extent what I was getting at. The church was expanded because of the persecution of the ungodly against them. What I am saying about the tribulationis this simple and straight forward....The tribulation is the final straw which is what stirs God to come down from His Holy habitation. He pours out His wrath upon the world of the ungodly who have slain His saints. Martyrdom will increase and persecution will increase. This is not to purify the saints so much as to show who is feigning belief or those who have the superficial faith Jesus mentions when referring to the seed which has no depth of earth. It is a period of separating the chaff from the wheat as I said before. Anyone in our day and age can say they are christians (include those who are not, and by Christ's own words "...many..."). When the powers of heaven and earth be shaken who will hold fast and who will fall away? The tribulation is the ultimate act of the world against true faithful who would not renownce the true and living Godno matter the persecution they faced. "If ye would deny Me before men, I will deny you before My Father which is in heaven...." Satan said to the Lord in Job, "...all that a man has will he give to save his life..." If a man truly has not the Son then he has nothing to give up but a superficial faith. How would this be tested but in the '...time of temptation that shall come upon the whole earth to try them...' This earth has to come to a close and the last of the last days are to be more difficult than any other time in history...so to hold our faith in the face of every opposition against the wiles of the enemy would be to either purify us or to shake us loose. I stand on the bulk of scripture in my position. I heard the pretib theory but I had not determined until reading for myself without preconcieved notions what the truth was. It is not a purifying unto salvation but a compliment of the fifth seal. and the numerous passages throughout which talk about the witnesses slain for their testimony (which would be contingent on their willing ness to die rather than deny). If the apsotles had not died for their testimony of actually seeing Christ risen would there be much reason to believe? Perhaps, but do we not realize all the more that God was glorified in their sufferings? God will judge the earth when His wrath is poured out. Why would He pour out His wrath but because they not only rejected Jesus Christ but because they rejected the witness of the Spirit which testifies of Christ? The Spirit is embodied in the believers all over the world.
I hope I have helped you to see my position a little bit better.
Take Care and God Bless

wpm
Apr 26th 2008, 08:21 PM
I have been a pre-tribber for about 18 years and have not yet heard another pre-tribber say they are pre-trib for the reasons you mentioned. It is funny I am always hearing post-tribbers say about pre-tribbers that they are pre-trib because they do not want any trials or persecution in their lives. Yet I have yet to hear even one pre-tribber say that is why they are pre-trib. Hence, my conclusion is that this is merely a bunch of rhetoric being put out there by post-tribbers.

I personally don't believe that is the reason Pretribbers believe that: I simply believe the reason why they believe Pretrib is because it has been taught to them. I cannot find it in the Bible. Maybe you would help.

Paul

quiet dove
Apr 26th 2008, 08:28 PM
2 Timothy 3:12 declares, “all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.”

Jesus said in John 16:33, “In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”

Acts 14:22 says, “we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”

Paul

Ok, so all those believers, or so called believers, that have not suffered tribulation such as will be during the GT or similar persecution were not actually living Godly lives?
All Christians who have not been beaten or killed for their faith are not living Godly lives? And have not been purified?

cwb
Apr 26th 2008, 08:36 PM
Ok, so all those believers, or so called believers, that have not suffered tribulation such as will be during the GT or similar persecution were not actually living Godly lives?
All Christians who have not been beaten or killed for their faith are not living Godly lives? And have not been purified?

Yeah, It makes me wonder. What if the great tribulation does not start for another 100 years and we die before the great tribulation starts. Does that mean we die without ever having been purified?

wpm
Apr 26th 2008, 08:40 PM
Ok, so all those believers, or so called believers, that have not suffered tribulation such as will be during the GT or similar persecution were not actually living Godly lives?
All Christians who have not been beaten or killed for their faith are not living Godly lives? And have not been purified?

You can interpret these passages how you want. From what I can see the godly believer will be persecuted. The reason why the Church isn't is because it is not living godly in Christ. It does not do what Jesus called us to do, which is: "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." The persecution does not need to be a beheading, it can be family rejection or resentment. Tribulation and trial are the nrom for the believer. It can be spiritual opposition from the invisible realm.

I propose: let the Bible speak. We don't need to explain it away.

Anyway, I believe the trib started with Stephen. There is nowhere that teaches a 7 yrs trib after the Coming of Christ - nowhere. Show me where it is if I am wrong.

Paul

wpm
Apr 26th 2008, 08:42 PM
Yeah, It makes me wonder. What if the great tribulation does not start for another 100 years and we die before the great tribulation starts. Does that mean we die without ever having been purified?

The first thing I feel you need to get out of your mind is the Pretrib 7 yrs theory. I don't believe there is any biblical basis for that. Until you do you will fail to see that tribulation is the norm for the believer.

II Corinthians 1:3-5 says, "Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ."

Ephesians 3:13 says, "Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory."

I Thessalonians 3:3 says, "That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. "

II Thessalonians 1:4 says, "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:"

Revelation 1:9 says, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ"

Jesus said in Matthew 5:10-13, “Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.”

I Peter 4:12-16 says, "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. "

Paul

divaD
Apr 26th 2008, 08:42 PM
I have been a pre-tribber for about 18 years and have not yet heard another pre-tribber say they are pre-trib for the reasons you mentioned. It is funny I am always hearing post-tribbers say about pre-tribbers that they are pre-trib because they do not want any trials or persecution in their lives. Yet I have yet to hear even one pre-tribber say that is why they are pre-trib. Hence, my conclusion is that this is merely a bunch of rhetoric being put out there by post-tribbers.



Ok that sounds fair enough. So why are you a pre-tribber then?
Why does it matter to you if you're raptured pre or post if you sincerely don't find the thought of enduring the tribulation one of the reasons why you are pre-trib? Then why are you pre-trib?
I used to be pre-trib myself. Why was I? Because that's what the Bible teaches? Nope. Because that's what I was taught. Why am I no longer a pre-tribber? Because I soon realized that what I was being taught wasn't actually taught in the Bible. As far as I can tell, the Bible doesn't teach a pre-trib rapture and a post-trib rapture. Both views can't be right. So the question is, who will be the least prepared if they're wrong? Obviously the pre-tribber will be the least prepared. I pretty much feel that a devout pre-tribber would be more likely to fall away during the trib, than say a post-tribber. Obviously either type could fall away, but I see it more than likely happening to pre-tribbers. Does this mean that all pre-tribbers are likely to fall away if the pre-trib rapture doesn't occur? Of course not. But the Bible says that there will be a falling away. Obviously this won't be a small matter, where a few hundred fall away, it will be a falling away on a large scale, otherwise I seriously doubt that the Bible would have made mention of it. With that in mind, I just have to put 2 and 2 together and I can see why this falling away is occurring on a large scale.

ShirleyFord
Apr 26th 2008, 08:58 PM
I have been a pre-tribber for about 18 years and have not yet heard another pre-tribber say they are pre-trib for the reasons you mentioned. It is funny I am always hearing post-tribbers say about pre-tribbers that they are pre-trib because they do not want any trials or persecution in their lives. Yet I have yet to hear even one pre-tribber say that is why they are pre-trib. Hence, my conclusion is that this is merely a bunch of rhetoric being put out there by post-tribbers.

Well CWB, I sure heard it all the years that I was pretrib. Course I never heard of any kind of tribs until 2002.

But I never became pretrib to escape the GT. Never heard of that time called the GT or any kind of tribulation until I was over 30. My first rememberance of hearing about the endtimes (long before I started school) was hearing Charles E. Fuller giving two options:

1. Be ready to go back to heaven with Jesus when He Comes or

2. Be punished by Him when He Comes at Armegeddon until your blood runs up to the horses bridles.

I heard many sermons during those old timey revival meetings held once a year in my Southern Baptist Church where the pastor encouraged the congregation to make sure that we were right with God so that we could escape His wrath after the Church had been removed from the earth.

When I did hear that the time of God's wrath being poured out was actually called the GT, I heard that His wrath would be poured out on unbelievers who were not Christians and the purpose for the GT: Israel via antichrist so that the 1/3 left after antichrist through God's wrath had killed 2/3 of them would finally accept the fact that Jesus was indeed the Messiah. Also that many Gentiles alive at that time would be killed by God's wrath. Some of them would also be saved though through the preaching of the 144,000 Jews, the 1/3 of Israel not killed by antichrist. But as soon as they were saved they would be tortured unmercifully and finally killed.

But my own personal study of the Scriptures caused me to recognize that it was Satan's wrath in Revelation 13 on God's saints and not God's wrath on God's people. God's wrath is poured out on the devil and all not in Christ when Jesus returns.

You better believe that I want to escape God's wrath. What Christian doesn't.



Shirley

cwb
Apr 26th 2008, 09:11 PM
The first thing I feel you need to get out of your mind is the Pretrib 7 yrs theory. I don't believe there is any biblical basis for that. Until you do you will fail to see that tribulation is the norm for the believer.

II Corinthians 1:3-5 says, "Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ."

Ephesians 3:13 says, "Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory."

I Thessalonians 3:3 says, "That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. "

II Thessalonians 1:4 says, "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:"

Revelation 1:9 says, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ"

Jesus said in Matthew 5:10-13, “Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.”

I Peter 4:12-16 says, "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. "

Paul

I am not really sure why you posted those scriptures. I have never and never will say that tribulation is not the norm for a believer. So I am not too sure why you are trying to prove this to me when i already know that anybody who lives Godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

quiet dove
Apr 26th 2008, 09:46 PM
You can interpret these passages how you want.


I did not give any interpretation of them.


From what I can see the godly believer will be persecuted.I would agree, thats what it says


The reason why the Church isn't is because it is not living godly in Christ
It does not do what Jesus called us to do, which is: "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
I would agree that the Church certainly has much room for improvement, so does that mean there are no individuals living Godly lives? The Church will be judged as a whole and the individual is meaningless?
Also, though I understand the Church in free countries has much room for improvement, I was also thinking however, that much of the missionary money to support the spreading of the Gospel was coming from the Church in these free from persecution countries, those, all of which are apparently living ungodly lives.



The persecution does not need to be a beheading, it can be family rejection or resentment. Tribulation and trial are the nrom for the believer. It can be spiritual opposition from the invisible realm.I agree, I am not the one saying the GT is for purifying the Church and that being beaten and/or killed is required to be purified.



I propose: let the Bible speak. We don't need to explain it away.I agree, and just like you, thats what I am doing. The problem is you here the Bible speaking one thing and I hear it speaking something else. How come when you hear it speaking something you are hearing what it says , but when I hear it speaking something I am .....what?

wpm
Apr 26th 2008, 10:07 PM
I did not give any interpretation of them.
I would agree, thats what it says
I would agree that the Church certainly has much room for improvement, so does that mean there are no individuals living Godly lives? The Church will be judged as a whole and the individual is meaningless?
Also, though I understand the Church in free countries has much room for improvement, I was also thinking however, that much of the missionary money to support the spreading of the Gospel was coming from the Church in these free from persecution countries, those, all of which are apparently living ungodly lives.

I agree, I am not the one saying the GT is for purifying the Church and that being beaten and/or killed is required to be purified.

I agree, and just like you, thats what I am doing. The problem is you here the Bible speaking one thing and I hear it speaking something else. How come when you hear it speaking something you are hearing what it says , but when I hear it speaking something I am .....what?

I am sorry, but I have yet to read any Pretrib present a single proof text to prove the theory. Now that you have a posttrib audience: Can you show us one single Scripture that describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

This is the $64,000,000 question that Pretribs must answer. I personally don't believe it can, but I am open for correction.

Paul

Alyssa S
Apr 26th 2008, 10:44 PM
I have been a pre-tribber for about 18 years and have not yet heard another pre-tribber say they are pre-trib for the reasons you mentioned. It is funny I am always hearing post-tribbers say about pre-tribbers that they are pre-trib because they do not want any trials or persecution in their lives. Yet I have yet to hear even one pre-tribber say that is why they are pre-trib. Hence, my conclusion is that this is merely a bunch of rhetoric being put out there by post-tribbers.

Well, if you would have met me about this time last year... you would have met your very first!!! :lol: So, from the looks of this post, you have now met 3 (I think) former pre-tribbers that thought this way.

I believed in the Pre-Trib because of what was taught from the pulpit. I became convinced of the Post-Trib because of what was taught from my Bible. It's that simple for me.

I will never forget, as a brand new believer, hearing my girlfriend describe the Rapture to me. Her husband was a "fresh out of theological seminary" graduate from one of the biggest Seminary's in the country. She proceeded to tell me how when the Pre-Trib Rapture occurs, there would no longer be a Holy Spirit dwelling on the earth, and so it will be much more difficult to become saved. I never dreamed of questioning her, since she graduated summa cum laude of her Bible College, nor her husband, who knew Greek backwards and forwards. Who was I??? I took them at their well-meaning word. But I always had a check in my spirit. Something was wrong with that picture. How does one get saved w/o the Holy Spirit? (And I realize this is not your personal belief, though it is a popular one) But one thing that did make "sense" to me, at that time, was that our loving God would not put his church through the Tribulation. Of course not!!

This is what was taught to me... and I believed it. Period. Until I began to study it for myself.

If you are convinced that this is rhetoric on mine and others part to try and pursuade those of the other camp to believe as I/we do, then there is nothing more I can say to change your mind. This is twice now that you have suggested rhetoric on our part. But I am being as transparent as I can possibly be by sharing my story with you. This is the truth. And at least God knows my story and what happened. :)

In any case, I still love pre-tribbers to pieces! They are still my believing brothers and sisters. :hug:

cwb
Apr 26th 2008, 10:49 PM
I am sorry, but I have yet to read any Pretrib present a single proof text to prove the theory. Now that you have a posttrib audience: Can you show us one single Scripture that describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

This is the $64,000,000 question that Pretribs must answer. I personally don't believe it can, but I am open for correction.

Paul

So, now you are starting with your question that you asked numerous times before when you were posting on this forum. I have answered your question and so have many other pre-tribbers. Just because you did not except the answer does not mean it was not answered. Why on earth would I want to waste my time answering a question you have repeated hundreds of times when you do not sincerely want an answer. Instead I am going to ask you this question.

CAN YOU SHOW ME ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT SHOWS (1) A 2000 PLUS YEAR TRIBULATION (2) FOLLOWED BY A POST TRIB RAPTURE.

That is the $64,000,000 question a-millers must answer. I personally don't believe it can be answered but I am opened for suggestions.

ShirleyFord
Apr 26th 2008, 11:46 PM
I will never forget, as a brand new believer, hearing my girlfriend describe the Rapture to me. Her husband was a "fresh out of theological seminary" graduate from one of the biggest Seminary's in the country. She proceeded to tell me how when the Pre-Trib Rapture occurs, there would no longer be a Holy Spirit dwelling on the earth, and so it will be much more difficult to become saved. I never dreamed of questioning her, since she graduated summa cum laude of her Bible College, nor her husband, who knew Greek backwards and forwards. Who was I??? I took them at their well-meaning word. But I always had a check in my spirit. Something was wrong with that picture. How does one get saved w/o the Holy Spirit?

The first time I heard that people would be saved during the GT without the Holy Spirit was said by my pastor one Sunday Night during the hour before the Sunday Night Service began. He had been teaching on the book of Revelation.

When he said, "People will be saved after the Rapture but oh, what a difficult time it will be for them to get saved without the Holy Spirit since He leaves the earth with the Church at the time of the Rapture", I blurted out before I realized it, "How can they be saved without the Holy Spirit? Doesn't the Bible say and you preach that no one can be saved without the Holy Spirit?"

I never will forget his answer, "The Bible says that people will get saved then. Exactly how they will be saved without the Holy Spirit, the Bible doesn't say. And where God is silent, we should not question."

DurbanDude
Apr 27th 2008, 12:28 AM
CAN YOU SHOW ME ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT SHOWS (1) A 2000 PLUS YEAR TRIBULATION (2) FOLLOWED BY A POST TRIB RAPTURE.

That is the $64,000,000 question a-millers must answer. I personally don't believe it can be answered but I am opened for suggestions.

cwb , I may be wrong , but I think that most post-tribs are not amills , but are pre-mill. The amills believe in the 2000 plus reign of Christ, saying this is happening already spiritually , and they are definitely right about this , Christ has been reigning over us in a spiritual sense for over 2000 years, and there are many verses to prove this. Where they go wrong is they associate the millenium , the physical reign of Christ for 1000 years over all rulers and people with the current period of Christ's spiritual reign over the church.

Many post-tribs believe there will be a seven year tribulation period , based loosely on Daniel's 70th seven (Daniel 9:27), but also on many other verses that appear to refer to periods of 3.5 years or 1260 days. The resurrection takes place after this , not before this. This is based on the natural uncomplicated reading of verses like Mathew 24:29-31 "the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken' . At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call , and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

The catastrophes that occur at the end of the tribulation period like earthquakes , stars falling , and the final trumpet call are repeatedly associated with the resurrection.(Daniel 12:1-2 ; Mark 13: 24-26; 1Corinthians15:51-52 ; 1Thess 4:13-17 ; 2Thess 1:6-7 ; 2Peter3: 10-12 ; Rev 20:1-6

I see no possible interpretation of a pre-trib rapture in these verses.

cwb
Apr 27th 2008, 12:39 AM
cwb , I may be wrong , but I think that most post-tribs are not amills , but are pre-mill. The amills believe in the 2000 plus reign of Christ, saying this is happening already spiritually , and they are definitely right about this , Christ has been reigning over us in a spiritual sense for over 2000 years, and there are many verses to prove this. Where they go wrong is they associate the millenium , the physical reign of Christ for 1000 years over all rulers and people with the current period of Christ's spiritual reign over the church.

Many post-tribs believe there will be a seven year tribulation period , based loosely on Daniel's 70th seven (Daniel 9:27), but also on many other verses that appear to refer to periods of 3.5 years or 1260 days. The resurrection takes place after this , not before this. This is based on the natural uncomplicated reading of verses like Mathew 24:29-31 "the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken' . At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call , and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

The catastrophes that occur at the end of the tribulation period like earthquakes , stars falling , and the final trumpet call are repeatedly associated with the resurrection.(Daniel 12:1-2 ; Mark 13: 24-26; 1Corinthians15:51-52 ; 1Thess 4:13-17 ; 2Thess 1:6-7 ; 2Peter3: 10-12 ; Rev 20:1-6

I see no possible interpretation of a pre-trib rapture in these verses.

I thess 4:13-17 is the only verse that specifically mentions believers being "caught up" from the Greek word "harpazo". It means the believers are here one second, then are in the clouds the next second. "Harpazo" is also mentioned with Phillip and the eunuch in the book of Acts. Phillip was in one city one second, then he was found in another city so that the Eunuch saw him no more. This happening is not mentioned in the verse you quoted in Matthew 24.

wpm
Apr 27th 2008, 12:49 AM
So, now you are starting with your question that you asked numerous times before when you were posting on this forum. I have answered your question and so have many other pre-tribbers. Just because you did not except the answer does not mean it was not answered. Why on earth would I want to waste my time answering a question you have repeated hundreds of times when you do not sincerely want an answer. Instead I am going to ask you this question.

CAN YOU SHOW ME ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT SHOWS (1) A 2000 PLUS YEAR TRIBULATION (2) FOLLOWED BY A POST TRIB RAPTURE.

That is the $64,000,000 question a-millers must answer. I personally don't believe it can be answered but I am opened for suggestions.

I think if you followed Amil posts, they don't specify how long the trib is because Scripture doesn't. So how can you require me to prove something we don't believe? Many Scripture identify the trib as an ongoing reality. By your diversion away from my question you are obviously admitting that there is no biblical foundation for the Pretrib theory of a Second Coming of Christ followed by a 7 yrs trib followed by a third Coming.

Paul

cwb
Apr 27th 2008, 01:05 AM
I think if you followed Amil posts, they don't specify how long the trib because Scripture doesn't. So how can we prove something we don't believe. Many Scripture identify the trib as an ongoing reality. By your diversion away from my question you are obviously admitting that there is no biblical foundation for the Pretrib theory of a Second Coming of Christ followed by a 7 yrs trib followed by a third Coming.

Paul

Cut the nonsense, WPM. I have answered your question plenty of times. You did not like the answer. That's fine. I am certainly not going to waste my time answering the question yet another time for you.



I think if you followed Amil posts, they don't specify how long the trib because Scripture doesn't.


Then give me one scripture passage that specically states that the tribulation is for an unspecified period of time.



By your diversion away from my question you are obviously admitting that there is no biblical foundation for the Pretrib theory of a Second Coming of Christ followed by a 7 yrs trib followed by a third Coming.



Sounds to me like that is what you are doing. In your diversion away from my question, You are obviously admitting that there is no biblical foundation for your theory. I will ask you the question again.


Show me one biblical passage that states (1) there will be tribulation which lasts for an unspecified amount of time. (2) this is followed by a rapture (harpazo).

Now show me that in one bible passage where it specifically says there is a tribulation for a unspecified period of time. In that same passage, the church being "caught up" has to be specifically mentioned. Please show me that specific passage.

Alyssa S
Apr 27th 2008, 01:07 AM
The first time I heard that people would be saved during the GT without the Holy Spirit was said by my pastor one Sunday Night during the hour before the Sunday Night Service began. He had been teaching on the book of Revelation.

When he said, "People will be saved after the Rapture but oh, what a difficult time it will be for them to get saved without the Holy Spirit since He leaves the earth with the Church at the time of the Rapture", I blurted out before I realized it, "How can they be saved without the Holy Spirit? Doesn't the Bible say and you preach that no one can be saved without the Holy Spirit?"

I never will forget his answer, "The Bible says that people will get saved then. Exactly how they will be saved without the Holy Spirit, the Bible doesn't say. And where God is silent, we should not question."

Yup! That sounds EXACTLY like what I heard. It's amazing how these particular days from our past stand out and very clear in our minds. Obviously that "still small voice" was whispering to you. :)

DurbanDude
Apr 27th 2008, 01:17 AM
I thess 4:13-17 is the only verse that specifically mentions believers being "caught up" from the Greek word "harpazo". It means the believers are here one second, then are in the clouds the next second. "Harpazo" is also mentioned with Phillip and the eunuch in the book of Acts. Phillip was in one city one second, then he was found in another city so that the Eunuch saw him no more. This happening is not mentioned in the verse you quoted in Matthew 24.

Being 'caught up' and being 'gathered' is actually the same thing. If you are caught up into the clouds , gathered into the clouds , or resurrected to meet Christ in the clouds: these are various ways to describe the same thing. There is no reason to believe in a pre-resurrection rapture because Paul himself expects to be part of the resurrection as a living believer. In 1 Corinthians 51,52 Paul states :" For the trumpet will sound , the dead will be raised imperishable, and WE will be changed." So the man who wrote significant amounts of end-time doctrine himself expects to be part of the first resurrection as a living believer, and this first resurrection is in turn clearly associated in many verses with the second coming and the day of the Lord , and the end of the tribulation.

ShirleyFord
Apr 27th 2008, 01:39 AM
I thess 4:13-17 is the only verse that specifically mentions believers being "caught up" from the Greek word "harpazo". It means the believers are here one second, then are in the clouds the next second. "Harpazo" is also mentioned with Phillip and the eunuch in the book of Acts. Phillip was in one city one second, then he was found in another city so that the Eunuch saw him no more.

CWB,

I believe that we will be "caught up" as Paul said and as Philip was "caught away" and as Paul was "caught up" spiritually and as the two witnesses were when they were resurrected from the dead stood on their feet and ascending up into heaven in the clouds at the Second Coming of Christ.

Paul certainly speaks of the Coming of Christ in 1 Thess 4:13-17.

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


As I have highlighted, Paul makes 3 references in these 5 verses of the Coming of Christ.

True, he doesn't say that Jesus comes all the way down to the earth. But he does say that He descends from heaven.


This happening is not mentioned in the verse you quoted in Matthew 24.

Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Matthew 24 doesn't say that Jesus's feet touches the earth either at the Second Coming. But you accept that Jesus is referring to His Second Coming in Matt 24 and not His Coming in the Rapture of 1 Thess 4:13-17. So where do you see a difference.


Shirley

wpm
Apr 27th 2008, 02:16 AM
Cut the nonsense, WPM. I have answered your question plenty of times. You did not like the answer. That's fine. I am certainly not going to waste my time answering the question yet another time for you.



Then give me one scripture passage that specically states that the tribulation is for an unspecified period of time.



Sounds to me like that is what you are doing. In your diversion away from my question, You are obviously admitting that there is no biblical foundation for your theory. I will ask you the question again.


Show me one biblical passage that states (1) there will be tribulation which lasts for an unspecified amount of time. (2) this is followed by a rapture (harpazo).

Now show me that in one bible passage where it specifically says there is a tribulation for a unspecified period of time. In that same passage, the church being "caught up" has to be specifically mentioned. Please show me that specific passage.

Firstly, you have never yet give me a passage with these 2 supposed future comings with a 7 yr trib sandwiched in between.

I don't think you are grasping what I am saying: Every time tribulation is mentioned in Scripture it is never accompanied with a time period, it is simply shown to be existing in Bible times and continuing right up until the climactic Coming of Christ.

The Pretrib theory was only invented in 1830 when Margaret McDonald went into a trance and had a vision. There is no record of this teaching prior to that.

Regards.

Paul

cwb
Apr 27th 2008, 02:42 AM
Firstly, you have never yet give me a passage with these 2 supposed future comings with a 7 yr trib sandwiched in between.

I don't think you are grasping what I am saying: Every time tribulation is mentioned in Scripture it is never accompanied with a time period, it is simply shown to be existing in Bible times and continuing right up until the climactic Coming of Christ.

The Pretrib theory was only invented in 1830 when Margaret McDonald went into a trance and had a vision. There is no record of this teaching prior to that.

Regards.

Paul

It is funny that you keep asking pre-tribbers for this one scripture passage yet when someone asks you for a single scripture passage to prove your end times theory, you never give one. Just let me know what that one scripture passage is that specifically says there is a tribulation for an unspecified period of time and after that tribulation period the rapture occurs. Just tell me that one scritpure passage.



The Pretrib theory was only invented in 1830 when Margaret McDonald went into a trance and had a vision. There is no record of this teaching prior to that.



Now why would you want to go and lie about the origins of the pre-trib rapture like you did here.

cwb
Apr 27th 2008, 02:52 AM
Being 'caught up' and being 'gathered' is actually the same thing. If you are caught up into the clouds , gathered into the clouds , or resurrected to meet Christ in the clouds: these are various ways to describe the same thing.


Matthew 24 doesn't say that Jesus's feet touches the earth either at the Second Coming. But you accept that Jesus is referring to His Second Coming in Matt 24 and not His Coming in the Rapture of 1 Thess 4:13-17. So where do you see a difference.


I disagree that being caught up is the same thing as angels gathering people together. In I Thess. 4, the believers are "caught up" or "harpazo". In other words they are on earth one second and in the clouds the next second. Matthew 24 describes something quite different. In Mattew 24, the angels take the people to their destination (by the way there is no mention of them being taken to the clouds in Matthew 24). The angels taking people to their destination describes something quite different than people be in one place one second and being in another place a second later.

ShirleyFord
Apr 27th 2008, 03:00 AM
I am sorry, but I have yet to read any Pretrib present a single proof text to prove the theory. Now that you have a posttrib audience: Can you show us one single Scripture that describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

This is the $64,000,000 question that Pretribs must answer. I personally don't believe it can, but I am open for correction.

Paul

Paul, I just remember how my Pretrib scholars answered that question in one passage of Scripture. :D

The Rapture is in Rev. 4-5, the Second Coming is in Rev. 19. And the 7 yr. GT is sandwiched in between from Rev. 6-18. :spin:

But one thing I couldn't quite figure out during all of my pretrib years: Why was such an important event for the Church, the Rapture, only found in 2 Chapters and the Second Coming in a few verses in only 1 Chapter, Chapter 19. But it took 13 whole chapters to cover the 7 years of antichrist's kingdom reign and only 7 verses to cover 1000 years of Christ's kingdom. :hmm:


Shirley

wpm
Apr 27th 2008, 03:00 AM
It is funny that you keep asking pre-tribbers for this one scripture passage yet when someone asks you for a single scripture passage to prove your end times theory, you never give one. Just let me know what that one scripture passage is that specifically says there is a tribulation for an unspecified period of time and after that tribulation period the rapture occurs. Just tell me that one scritpure passage.



I refer you back to my previous posts that have explained that it is impossible to prove something that I don't believe is stated namely that the trib is described as being a specific duration. Jesus tells us in Matt 24:36: "of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." If God detailed this then we would know the time of His appearing. I think this is clear!


The Pretrib theory was only invented in 1830 when Margaret McDonald went into a trance and had a vision. There is no record of this teaching prior to that.

List what Christian leaders held it through the previous 1800s?

Paul

cwb
Apr 27th 2008, 03:07 AM
I refer you back to my previous posts that have expalined that it is impossible to prove something that I don't believe is stated namely that the trib is described as being a specific duration. Jesus tells us in Matt 24:36: "of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." If God detailed this then we would know the time of His appearing. I think this is clear!




Paul

You say the tribualation does not have a specific time period. Show me the scripture that spicifically says that. I will ask you yet again since you keep avoiding showing me that scripture. SHOW ME ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE PASSAGE THAT SHOW THERE WILL BE (1) A TRIBULATION FOR AN UNSPECIFIED PERIOD OF TIME (2) FOLLOWED BY THE BELIEVERS BEING CAUGHT UP TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR.

BrckBrln
Apr 27th 2008, 03:11 AM
List what Christian leaders held it through the previous 1800s?

The pretribbers will point to that Syrian person who was what we would call mid trib and expect you to believe pre trib is the historical posistion. That's just crazy.

danield
Apr 27th 2008, 03:14 AM
Paul, I just remember how my Pretrib scholars answered that question in one passage of Scripture. :D

The Rapture is in Rev. 4-5, the Second Coming is in Rev. 19. And the 7 yr. GT is sandwiched in between from Rev. 6-18. :spin:

But one thing I couldn't quite figure out during all of my pretrib years: Why was such an important event for the Church, the Rapture, only found in 2 Chapters and the Second Coming in a few verses in only 1 Chapter, Chapter 19. But it took 13 whole chapters to cover the 7 years of antichrist's kingdom reign and only 7 verses to cover 1000 years of Christ's kingdom. :hmm:


Shirley

This is wonderful wisdom, and it should also reinforce our thoughts that it is not difficult to love Christ in good times or bad. I think Revelation also helps us understand why we have to go through such times, but again Shirley that post shows really great wisdom. Points for you!

danield
Apr 27th 2008, 03:17 AM
You say the tribualation does not have a specific time period. Show me the scripture that spicifically says that. I will ask you yet again since you keep avoiding showing me that scripture. SHOW ME ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE PASSAGE THAT SHOW THERE WILL BE (1) A TRIBULATION FOR AN UNSPECIFIED PERIOD OF TIME (2) FOLLOWED BY THE BELIEVERS BEING CAUGHT UP TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR.

I think the ten virgins can be interpreted to accommodate your parameters.

ShirleyFord
Apr 27th 2008, 03:26 AM
You say the tribualation does not have a specific time period. Show me the scripture that spicifically says that. I will ask you yet again since you keep avoiding showing me that scripture. SHOW ME ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE PASSAGE THAT SHOW THERE WILL BE (1) A TRIBULATION FOR AN UNSPECIFIED PERIOD OF TIME (2) FOLLOWED BY THE BELIEVERS BEING CAUGHT UP TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR.


Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.



Shirley

Cyberseeker
Apr 27th 2008, 03:31 AM
SHOW ME ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE PASSAGE THAT SHOW THERE WILL BE (1) A TRIBULATION FOR AN UNSPECIFIED PERIOD OF TIME

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
(Matt:24:21-22 - Unspecified time)


(2) FOLLOWED BY THE BELIEVERS BEING CAUGHT UP TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(Matt:24:29-31 - Caught up/Gathered)

cwb
Apr 27th 2008, 03:37 AM
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.



Shirley

I see angels gathering people together. I do not see anything about believers being "caught up" there.

Cyberseeker
Apr 27th 2008, 03:38 AM
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
(Matt:24:29-31 - Caught up/Gathered)

Perhaps this means the angels will gather the elect into buses and trains and drive them to some special location. ;) But I'm more inclined to think that this scripture is referring to the rapture.

cwb
Apr 27th 2008, 03:42 AM
[quote=Cyberseeker;1618596]
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
(Matt:24:21-22 - Unspecified time)



"Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(Matt:24:29-31 - Caught up/Gathered)


In red, you put "caught up" and "gathered" in parenthesis as if they are the same thing. Angels gathering people and people being caught up are two different things.

wpm
Apr 27th 2008, 03:50 AM
You say the tribualation does not have a specific time period. Show me the scripture that spicifically says that. I will ask you yet again since you keep avoiding showing me that scripture. SHOW ME ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE PASSAGE THAT SHOW THERE WILL BE (1) A TRIBULATION FOR AN UNSPECIFIED PERIOD OF TIME (2) FOLLOWED BY THE BELIEVERS BEING CAUGHT UP TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR.

I have outlined to you and QD several passages that show tribulation is the believers lot - period. You have failed to acknolwedge these are relating to this non-specific intra-Advent period.

I have also showed you that when Jesus left, He never stated how long He would be. In fact, He just called us to watch and pray and be "ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." See also Luke 12:40.

If this is not explicit proof that the tribulation period would be unspecified then I don't know what is.

Paul

Alyssa S
Apr 27th 2008, 03:51 AM
The Pretrib theory was only invented in 1830 when Margaret McDonald went into a trance and had a vision. There is no record of this teaching prior to that.




Let me be clear that I am not promoting or supporting the Pre-Trib doctrine, but I believe it's only fair to put the facts out there. There WAS, actually, one fellow who seemed to believe in a Pre-Trib idea before Darby and McDonald. But as far as it being TAUGHT, it appears that it wasn't until the mid 1800's.

The fellow's name was Ephraem of Nisibis (306-73), and he was considered to be the "greatest figure" in the history of the Syrian
church. I have not researched this much at all, but he does seem to be the only one prior to Darby that had this idea. Try to Google his name to get more info.

Cyberseeker
Apr 27th 2008, 03:52 AM
In red, you put "caught up" and "gathered" in parenthesis as if they are the same thing. Angels gathering people and people being caught up are two different things.

Can you please tell me; when the angels gather the elect from all over the world, will their feet actually leave the ground?

Or will the angels use public transport systems such as aeroplanes?

wpm
Apr 27th 2008, 03:57 AM
You say the tribualation does not have a specific time period. Show me the scripture that spicifically says that. I will ask you yet again since you keep avoiding showing me that scripture. SHOW ME ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE PASSAGE THAT SHOW THERE WILL BE (1) A TRIBULATION FOR AN UNSPECIFIED PERIOD OF TIME (2) FOLLOWED BY THE BELIEVERS BEING CAUGHT UP TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR.

Jesus said in Matthew 25:14, 19-30 on the parable of the talents, “For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.”

Here Christ is speaking of the intra-Advent period.

And continues, “After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."

Is "a long time" not an unspecific time?

He continues, "Then he which had received the one talent came …His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my Coming I should have received mine own with usury. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Here again, both the righteous and the wicked receive their judgment at the all-consummating Second Advent of the Lord – “at my coming.” Not simply the wicked, but the righteous servants are brought before the bar of God to account for their talents!!! When? At Christ's Coming.

Paul

ShirleyFord
Apr 27th 2008, 04:02 AM
In red, you put "caught up" and "gathered" in parenthesis as if they are the same thing. Angels gathering people and people being caught up are two different things.

Here is a gathering without the angels if that will help:

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him

But how do we know that the angels wouldn't be the ones gathering the Church in 1 Thess. 4 to one place on earth before we who alive and remain are caught up with Jesus in the air, clouds, as He is descending to earth from heaven. After all the shout of Jesus at His Coming is with the voice of an archangel.


Shirley

Truthinlove
Apr 27th 2008, 04:03 AM
In red, you put "caught up" and "gathered" in parenthesis as if they are the same thing. Angels gathering people and people being caught up are two different things.


Being caught up and gathered IS the SAME thing.

Look at 1 Thess. 4:13-18 the "classic rapture passage"
He says in vs. 17 "Then we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."

Then Paul says in 2 Thess. 2:1 "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our BEING GATHERED TO HIM..."

Paul is referring to the SAME event...the rapture, but in one text he calls it being caught up, the next text it is us being gathered to Jesus......same thing! ;)

Alyssa S
Apr 27th 2008, 04:06 AM
Now why would you want to go and lie about the origins of the pre-trib rapture like you did here.


By the way, I don't know wpm personally, but I don't think he is "lying" about the origins here as you claim he is. I think that he was stating that the pre-trib belief began in the 1830's because that was what was widely believed until recently when an ancient citation was found with the sermon of this Ephraem fellow.

In any case, as I already stated, it seems it still wasn't TAUGHT until the 1800's.

wpm
Apr 27th 2008, 04:09 AM
Let me be clear that I am not promoting or supporting the Pre-Trib doctrine, but I believe it's only fair to put the facts out there. There WAS, actually, one fellow who seemed to believe in a Pre-Trib idea before Darby and McDonald. But as far as it being TAUGHT, it appears that it wasn't until the mid 1800's.

The fellow's name was Ephraem of Nisibis (306-73), and he was considered to be the "greatest figure" in the history of the Syrian
church. I have not researched this much at all, but he does seem to be the only one prior to Darby that had this idea. Try to Google his name to get more info.

I asume you are referring to Pseudo-Ephraem. His accepted name since early time confirms that there has been a massive question mark over the bonafides of his work. Notwithstanding, since when was he referred to as "the 'greatest figure' in the history of the Syrian church" and by whom?

Also, apart from one ambiguous statement, his writings make no mention of a Pretrib rapture.

The first principle of evidence is: he who alleges must prove. So, I am open for the evidence.

Where did he teach: a Second Coming of Christ followed by a 7 yrs trib followed by a third Coming?

I have searched his questionable writings and found no reference.

Paul

Alyssa S
Apr 27th 2008, 04:31 AM
I asume you are referring to Pseudo-Ephraem. His accepted name since early time confirms that there has been a massive question mark over the bonafides of his work. Notwithstanding, since when was he referred to as "the 'greatest figure' in the history of the Syrian church" and by whom?

Also, apart from one ambiguous statement, his writings make no mention of a Pretrib rapture.

The first principle of evidence is: he who alleges must prove. So, I am open for the evidence.

Where did he teach: a Second Coming of Christ followed by a 7 yrs trib followed by a third Coming?

I have searched his questionable writings and found no reference.

Paul

Hi Paul... Yes, that is who I am referring to. As I said, I have not researched this at all. I simply googled this particular information, since several supporters of the Pre-Trib were claiming that this belief is older than the 1800's. I am not claiming it as truth, but I just wanted to put it out there. I believe in a Post Trib, by the way.

Here is part of what I found...

http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/9807/980703_d.html

Rapture critic William Bell has formulated three criteria for establishing
the validity of a historical citation regarding the
rapture. If any of his three criteria are met, then he acknowledges it is
"of crucial importance, if found, whether by direct
statement or clear inference." As will be seen, the Pseudo-Ephraem sermon meets not one, but two of his canons, namely,
"Any mention that Christ's second coming was to consist of more than one
phase, separated by an interval of years," and "any
mention that Christ was to remove the church from the earth before the
tribulation period."6


Pseudo-Ephraem's Rapture Statement

I vividly remember the phone call at my office late one afternoon from
Canadian prophecy teacher and writer Grant Jeffrey.7
He told me that he had found an ancient pre-trib rapture statement. I said, "Let's hear it." He read the following to me over
the phone:

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before
the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in
order that they may not see at any time the confusion which
overwhelms the world because of our sins.

I said that it sure sounds like a pre-trib statement and began to fire at
him all the questions I have since received many times
when telling others about the statement from Pseudo-Ephraem's sermon On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the
World.8 Grant's phone call started me on journey through many of the
substantial libraries throughout the Washington, D.C.
area in an effort to learn all I could about this historically significant
statement. The more information I acquired led me to
conclude that Grant is right to conclude that this is a pre-trib rapture
statement of antiquity.


Who is Pseudo-Ephraem?

The word "Pseudo" (Greek for false) is a prefix attached by scholars to the
name of a famous historical person or book of the
Bible when one writes using that name. Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his
sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306-73), considered to be the greatest figure in the history of the Syrian
church. He was well-known for his poetics,
rejection of rationalism, and confrontations with the heresies of Marcion,
Mani, and the Arians. As a poet, exegete, and
theologian, his style was similar to that of the Jewish midrashic and
targumic traditions and he favored a contemplative
approach to spirituality. So popular were his works that in the fifth and
sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian
communities as a spiritual father and role model. His many works, some of
doubtful authenticity, were soon translated from
Syriac into Greek, Armenian, and Latin.

quiet dove
Apr 27th 2008, 04:36 AM
I am sorry, but I have yet to read any Pretrib present a single proof text to prove the theory. Now that you have a posttrib audience: Can you show us one single Scripture that describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

This is the $64,000,000 question that Pretribs must answer. I personally don't believe it can, but I am open for correction.

Paul

You have completely ignored the topic we were discussing and are trying to put me in a position of proving a pre trib rapture to you. The problem with that is I do not have any desire or inclination to do so. If you see it amil, be amil.

My question was


You said this
The reason why the Church isn't is because it is not living godly in Christ
It does not do what Jesus called us to do, which is: "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
I would agree that the Church certainly has much room for improvement, so does that mean there are no individuals living Godly lives? The Church will be judged as a whole and the individual is meaningless?
Also, though I understand the Church in free countries has much room for improvement, I was also thinking however, that much of the missionary money to support the spreading of the Gospel was coming from the Church in these free from persecution countries, those, all of which are apparently living ungodly lives.

It has been argued by post trib that the GT is for purifying the Church, that is how this got started. But since you believe we have been in the GT since Stephen, I guess a future GT is not really an issue for you.

wpm
Apr 27th 2008, 04:36 AM
Hi Paul... Yes, that is who I am referring to. As I said, I have not researched this at all. I simply googled this particular information, since several supporters of the Pre-Trib were claiming that this belief is older than the 1800's. I am not claiming it as truth, but I just wanted to put it out there. I believe in a Post Trib, by the way.

Here is part of what I found...

http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/9807/980703_d.html

Rapture critic William Bell has formulated three criteria for establishing
the validity of a historical citation regarding the
rapture. If any of his three criteria are met, then he acknowledges it is
"of crucial importance, if found, whether by direct
statement or clear inference." As will be seen, the Pseudo-Ephraem sermon meets not one, but two of his canons, namely,
"Any mention that Christ's second coming was to consist of more than one
phase, separated by an interval of years," and "any
mention that Christ was to remove the church from the earth before the
tribulation period."6


Pseudo-Ephraem's Rapture Statement

I vividly remember the phone call at my office late one afternoon from
Canadian prophecy teacher and writer Grant Jeffrey.7
He told me that he had found an ancient pre-trib rapture statement. I said, "Let's hear it." He read the following to me over
the phone:

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before
the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in
order that they may not see at any time the confusion which
overwhelms the world because of our sins.

I said that it sure sounds like a pre-trib statement and began to fire at
him all the questions I have since received many times
when telling others about the statement from Pseudo-Ephraem's sermon On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the
World.8 Grant's phone call started me on journey through many of the
substantial libraries throughout the Washington, D.C.
area in an effort to learn all I could about this historically significant
statement. The more information I acquired led me to
conclude that Grant is right to conclude that this is a pre-trib rapture
statement of antiquity.


Who is Pseudo-Ephraem?

The word "Pseudo" (Greek for false) is a prefix attached by scholars to the
name of a famous historical person or book of the
Bible when one writes using that name. Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his
sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306-73), considered to be the greatest figure in the history of the Syrian
church. He was well-known for his poetics,
rejection of rationalism, and confrontations with the heresies of Marcion,
Mani, and the Arians. As a poet, exegete, and
theologian, his style was similar to that of the Jewish midrashic and
targumic traditions and he favored a contemplative
approach to spirituality. So popular were his works that in the fifth and
sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian
communities as a spiritual father and role model. His many works, some of
doubtful authenticity, were soon translated from
Syriac into Greek, Armenian, and Latin.

I rest my case.

Paul

cwb
Apr 27th 2008, 04:47 AM
Can you please tell me; when the angels gather the elect from all over the world, will their feet actually leave the ground?

Or will the angels use public transport systems such as aeroplanes?

When the angels gather together the elect (Israel, not the church), I do not know what method of transport they will use. However when the rapture occurs when believers are "caught up", I believe the Spirit of the Lord will do it like he did with Philip in the book of Acts.

cwb
Apr 27th 2008, 04:50 AM
I have outlined to you and QD several passages that show tribulation is the believers lot - period. You have failed to acknolwedge these are relating to this non-specific intra-Advent period.

I have also showed you that when Jesus left, He never stated how long He would be. In fact, He just called us to watch and pray and be "ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." See also Luke 12:40.

If this is not explicit proof that the tribulation period would be unspecified then I don't know what is.

Paul

Not one of the verses you quoted show that when Jesus Spoke of the great tribulation, it was an unspecified period of time.

cwb
Apr 27th 2008, 04:55 AM
Jesus said in Matthew 25:14, 19-30 on the parable of the talents, “For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.”

Here Christ is speaking of the intra-Advent period.

And continues, “After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."

Is "a long time" not an unspecific time?

He continues, "Then he which had received the one talent came …His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my Coming I should have received mine own with usury. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Here again, both the righteous and the wicked receive their judgment at the all-consummating Second Advent of the Lord – “at my coming.” Not simply the wicked, but the righteous servants are brought before the bar of God to account for their talents!!! When? At Christ's Coming.

Paul

WPM, I think everybody knows no matter what camp they are in that Jesus did not specify the amount of time between his first coming and second coming. That is not what my question was to you. You still have not answered the question I asked of you. It is odd to me that you would harrass pre-tribbers the way you do when you can't answer a similar question concerning your point of view.

wpm
Apr 27th 2008, 05:13 AM
WPM, I think everybody knows no matter what camp they are in that Jesus did not specify the amount of time between his first coming and second coming. That is not what my question was to you. You still have not answered the question I asked of you. It is odd to me that you would harrass pre-tribbers the way you do when you can't answer a similar question concerning your point of view.

I directly met your request. You just refused to accept it. I wasn't so much presenting them to change your mind, I simply furnished these for others that may want them. That was my intent. Others will see that your criteria was ably met.

As for my question to you (and all Pretribs), it, once again, remains unaddressed. I feel it will always remain so, as I am convinced there is no biblical basis for the Pretrib theory.

Paul

cwb
Apr 27th 2008, 05:20 AM
You have completely ignored the topic we were discussing and are trying to put me in a position of proving a pre trib rapture to you. The problem with that is I do not have any desire or inclination to do so. If you see it amil, be amil.



That is a good attitude to have. You do not have to prove a pre-trib rapture to anybody, especially not to anybody who has no desire to really learn from you but only wants to be condescending and mocking.

The thing is for those who want to mock a pre-trib rapture and those who hold to that viewpoint are going to look really foolish should their viewpoint turn out to be wrong and the rapture occurs pre-trib. Should the rapture turn out to be pre-trib, then those who mocked it were not mocking any man but they were mocking God and His truth.

cwb
Apr 27th 2008, 05:26 AM
I directly met your request. You just refused to accept it. I wasn't so much presenting them to change your mind, I simply furnished these for others that may want them. That was my intent. Others will see that your criteria was ably met.

As for my question to you (and all Pretribs), it, once again, remains unaddressed. I feel it will always remain so, as I am convinced there is no biblical basis for the Pretrib theory.

Paul

You have not met my request. You have not showed a single scripture passage that shows (1) a great tribulation for an unspecified period of time (2) followed by believers being caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

You did not even answer the first part of the question, much less the second part in the same passage. As far as your question to me, I have answered you plenty of times in the past. You just refused to accept it.

Cyberseeker
Apr 27th 2008, 05:26 AM
When the angels gather together the elect (Israel, not the church), I do not know what method of transport they will use. However when the rapture occurs when believers are "caught up", I believe the Spirit of the Lord will do it like he did with Philip in the book of Acts.

You did not answer the first part of my question. When the angels gather the elect from the four corners of the earth (be it Israel or the Church) will their feet actually leave the ground?

cwb
Apr 27th 2008, 05:29 AM
You did not answer the first part of my question. When the angels gather the elect from the four corners of the earth (be it Israel or the church) will their feel actually leave the ground?


I do not know if their feet will leave the ground or not at the time the angels gather the elect. However when the rapture happens I am convinced that the feet of those who are raptured will leave the ground.

Cyberseeker
Apr 27th 2008, 05:39 AM
I do not know if their feet will leave the ground or not at the time the angels gather the elect. However when the rapture happens I am convinced that the feet of those who are raptured will leave the ground.

The four corners of the earth are a lot of kilometers. Can you please tell me where this gathering is going to take place, or how many months it will take to transport every Jewish person on the globe to a central location?

cwb
Apr 27th 2008, 05:47 AM
The four corners of the earth are a lot of kilometers. Can you please tell me where this gathering is going to take place, or how many months it will take to transport every Jewish person on the globe to a central location?

Maybe angels can fly pretty quick. I do not know how long it will take. I do not think there is any scripture that says exactly how long this will take or if they will will use airplanes. I do believe the location the elect will be gathered to is Israel.

Cyberseeker
Apr 27th 2008, 06:02 AM
Maybe angels can fly pretty quick. I do not know how long it will take. I do not think there is any scripture that says exactly how long this will take or if they will will use airplanes. I do believe the location the elect will be gathered to is Israel.

So you acknowledge that the feet of the elect actually leave the ground. They do not catch the train. I agree, but it sounds incredibly similar to the rapture to me. For your reference here is the verse again.


"Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

cwb
Apr 27th 2008, 06:51 AM
So you acknowledge that the feet of the elect actually leave the ground. They do not catch the train. I agree, but it sounds incredibly similar to the rapture to me. For your reference here is the verse again.

Actually, I do not know if the elect's feet leave the ground or not. Also I do not know if the elect go all the way to the clouds when matt 24 occurs. I still believe what occurs at the rapture is different than what happens in Matt 24. I do not see angels flying anybody anywhere in I Thess 4. I see it happening like what happened with Phillip in the book of Acts. He was in one city, next second he was in a different city. With the rapture, I believe will happen the same way. We will be on the ground. Next second we will be in the clouds. Here is the reference to Phillip.



Acts 8:39 and 40
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Truthinlove
Apr 27th 2008, 07:08 AM
This thread has gotten pretty silly!
And...completely off track of the op's purpose.
She didn't want to debate between views.
Maybe another thread should be started for your debate....?

Cyberseeker
Apr 27th 2008, 07:33 AM
Actually, I do not know if the elect's feet leave the ground or not.
But you do acknowledge that angels fly pretty quick!

Look, lets get real about this verse. Matthew says the elect will be gathered from the 4 corners. I live in one of those corners - New Zealand. Now, there is two ways to move Jewish New Zealanders to Israel and that is by ship or by plane. The only other way is by miraculous angelic airlift.

Now think about it! The scripture in Matthew is talking about 'miraculous angelic airlift.' Thats patently obvious. So your interpretation of Matt 24:31 is nothing less than a 'rapture.' Whether it is THE 'rapture' or not I don't suppose you will admit. But you are going to have to face yourself with a little bit of intellectual honesty here. Either there are two raptures or Matt 24:31 and 1Thes 4:17 is talking about exactly the same thing.

So getting back to what you originally asked. Is there a scripture that shows there will be a tribulation followed by the elect being caught up in the air? Indeed there is - Matthew 24: 29-31.

cwb
Apr 27th 2008, 07:51 AM
But you do acknowledge that angels fly pretty quick!

Look, lets get real about this verse. Matthew says the elect will be gathered from the 4 corners. I live in one of those corners - New Zealand. Now, there is two ways to move Jewish New Zealanders to Israel and that is by ship or by plane. The only other way is by miraculous angelic airlift.

Now think about it! The scripture in Matthew is talking about 'miraculous angelic airlift.' Thats patently obvious. So your interpretation of Matt 24:31 is nothing less than a 'rapture.' Whether it is THE 'rapture' or not I don't suppose you will admit. But you are going to have to face yourself with a little bit of intellectual honesty here. Either there are two raptures or Matt 24:31 and 1Thes 4:17 is talking about exactly the same thing.

So getting back to what you originally asked. Is there a scripture that shows there will be a tribulation followed by the elect being caught up in the air? Indeed there is - Matthew 24: 29-31.

I Thess is not talking about anybody going from New Zealand to Israel. It is talking about believers being caught up to the clouds. And by the way, an airlift is not the only way to get people from New Zealand to Israel. There is nothing in Matthew 24 that says anything about a rapture. Also with Phillip, no angels took him, the spirit of the Lord did. My question was about showing a scripture where a rapture is specifically mentioned. You have to reason away that this is a rapture since it does not specifically state a rapture occurs in Matthew 24. I do not see that the verse you quoted from Matt. 24 has proven anything. In any case, we will find out soon enough whether Matthew 24 is talking about a rapture or not.

TexasBeliever
Apr 27th 2008, 12:30 PM
My wife was brought up RC. She never remembers being taught about being born again. All her friends were like her, they lived for the devil all week and went to mass on Sunday to ask for forgiveness. As a Pastor that is my normal experience with dealing with RCs. I am not saying there are no saved ones, but I have met very few. In Ireland Catholicism is corrupt. They are the biggest enemies of the true Gospel. Thankfully the RCC in Ireland is falling apart with the 100s of Paedophile priests.

In closing, I would be interested on your take: What do you think will happen when Jesus comes? What happens to believers? What happens to unbelievers?

Paul

The wheat is gathered into His barn and the chaff is thrown into the fire to be burned. At least the ones who heard and rejected Him.
As for the ones, who through no fault of their own, have never been exposed to the gospel, I won't even speculate on that. The Lord is rich in mercy, this I do know.

ShirleyFord
Apr 27th 2008, 01:03 PM
Hello everyone:

I forgot to mention this in my introduction. I was pretrib for years (that was all that was out there at the time) but after rereading the Bible trying to put myself in the position of someone who had never heard of pretrib, I came to the conclusion that a straight reading of the black and white text was clearly posttrib.

Also I kept an open mind and sought out conversations with believers who were not pretrib to get their take on the scriptures.

It took me a year to come to terms with the future that lies before us.

Anyway, just wanted to say I'm looking forward to meeting you. :cool:

Hi Tex,

When I began my own research in 1999, I didn't know anyone who didn't believe in a Rapture of the Church before the Second Coming of Christ. All those years that I was pretrib, I really questioned why there was so little written and taught about the Rapture and seemed to be only mentioned in connection with the 7 yr. GT and its purpose. And most of the books on the endtimes that I read by pretrib authors and sermons I heard preached by pretrib preachers were basically on the things that were going to happen in the 7 yr. GT and how things around the world were gearing up for that time. So there was not really anyone that I could really sit down and talk to soley about the Rapture of the Church while I was pretrib.

And the only Scriptures used to prove a Rapture of the Church before the Second Coming was "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and Revelation 4:1 where John, in the Spirit on the Lord's day, heard a voice that said, "Come up hither". But neither of those Scriptures said anything about a Rapture of the Church before the Second Coming.

When Hal Lindsey came out with his book, "The Rapture", I thought sure that I he would include many Scriptures that would once and for all prove a Rapture of the Church before the Second Coming. But I found instead him writing that there was not one Scripture that one could point to that clearly said that there would be a Rapture of the Church before the Second Coming. And further stated that what he had tried to show was God's purpose for the 7 GT to prove that His purpose was not for the Church but for Israel to get her prepared to recognize her Messiah when He returned.

So "The Rapture" turned out to be another book about the GT when God turns back to Israel His wife and the bride of Christ, the Church, cannot be on the earth then so God must remove us.

Then I began to understand why so little was written about the Rapture and so much written about a 7 yr. GT using Scripture throughout the OT and NT that speaks of God's dealings with Israel or the "elect".

But my three-year investigation from the Bible, using the same Scriptures throughout the OT and NT pretrib teaches for the purpose of the Rapture before the GT, I found that none of those Scriptures mentioned a seven-year GT just before the Second Coming of Christ in order for God to turn back to and deal with His divorced wife, natural Israel who rejects Jesus, by pouring out His wrath on her to prepare her to recognize His Son when He Comes the second time.


Shirley

TexasBeliever
Apr 27th 2008, 01:07 PM
After reading everyone's posts, I would like to add this;

This is found at the beginning of Revelation:
"The revelation of Jesus Christ.....to show unto His servants the things which must soon happen. Blessed are those who read, hear and keep the words of this prophecy. To the seven churches in Asia.............."


and this is what is found at the end:
"I Jesus, have sent My angel to testify unto you, these things to the churches."


Revelation is given TO THE CHURCHES. The entire book. It is a warning of the terrible times to come and a 'blueprint' of what to expect and a promise of their triumph when the dust settles.

Mark F
Apr 27th 2008, 04:55 PM
Hi Tex,

When I began my own research in 1999, I didn't know anyone who didn't believe in a Rapture of the Church before the Second Coming of Christ. All those years that I was pretrib, I really questioned why there was so little written and taught about the Rapture and seemed to be only mentioned in connection with the 7 yr. GT and its purpose. And most of the books on the endtimes that I read by pretrib authors and sermons I heard preached by pretrib preachers were basically on the things that were going to happen in the 7 yr. GT and how things around the world were gearing up for that time. So there was not really anyone that I could really sit down and talk to soley about the Rapture of the Church while I was pretrib.

And the only Scriptures used to prove a Rapture of the Church before the Second Coming was "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and Revelation 4:1 where John, in the Spirit on the Lord's day, heard a voice that said, "Come up hither". But neither of those Scriptures said anything about a Rapture of the Church before the Second Coming.

When Hal Lindsey came out with his book, "The Rapture", I thought sure that I he would include many Scriptures that would once and for all prove a Rapture of the Church before the Second Coming. But I found instead him writing that there was not one Scripture that one could point to that clearly said that there would be a Rapture of the Church before the Second Coming. And further stated that what he had tried to show was God's purpose for the 7 GT to prove that His purpose was not for the Church but for Israel to get her prepared to recognize her Messiah when He returned.

So "The Rapture" turned out to be another book about the GT when God turns back to Israel His wife and the bride of Christ, the Church, cannot be on the earth then so God must remove us.

Then I began to understand why so little was written about the Rapture and so much written about a 7 yr. GT using Scripture throughout the OT and NT that speaks of God's dealings with Israel or the "elect".

But my three-year investigation from the Bible, using the same Scriptures throughout the OT and NT pretrib teaches for the purpose of the Rapture before the GT, I found that none of those Scriptures mentioned a seven-year GT just before the Second Coming of Christ in order for God to turn back to and deal with His divorced wife, natural Israel who rejects Jesus, by pouring out His wrath on her to prepare her to recognize His Son when He Comes the second time.


Shirley



Shirley,

From your statement above I can conclude that you (and others) know exactly why we believe that the Church is to be removed before the "GT". You also know that the seven year time frame comes from Daniel 9:24-27. Actually IMO the seven years are a total, with the last 3.5 being the GT. So after your own study of Scripture you have concluded that you no longer see any difference between the Church and a future working of God with the nation Israel (as His witness nation). I'm fine with that, but these threads are so far away from allowing any convincing of each other because we are so fundamentally different in our veiws of the plan of God for man as a whole.

It puts everything we believe concerning escatology at polar opposites that there is no room for comprimise.

Another road block to agreement is that some cannot differentiate tribulation in a general sense to tribulation in a specific sense, we have to be able to discern the difference.

As to three returns of Christ (which someone else mentioned) I am missing that point alltogether. I believe that Jesus will leave heaven as you alluded to in Revelation 4:1--"After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.” to take away the Church to heaven to be made ready to reign with Christ. The Scriptures descibe events which must take place in heaven and it is concerning the Church, the judgment seat of Christ, the giving of believer's rewards, the marriage of the Lamb, the marriage supper. I don't believe that these things will happen instantly to support a rapture and immeadiately return with Christ at His physical touching the ground return, but will take some time to accomplish.

As I have clearly said before, we also differ in that we acknowledge gaps of time in Scripture without specific explanation, we understand (or I, I should not include all pre-tribs in my statements) by observation of the record as a whole, that these gaps do indeed exist. You believe in one resurrection occurring on one day and includes all people correct? Yet Paul in 1 Cor.15:23-- "But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming."

Paul includes Jesus in the resurrection that Jesus describes in John 5:28-29, is there a gap here? If there is not an acknowledgment of a gap between the righteous dead, and the wicked dead (which I believe is the earthly 1000 year kingdom), surely you must admit there is a gap between Christ and any other resurrection (2000 years + and counting), since Paul ascribes an order which includes Jesus.

Sorry for the side track above.

There are a myraid of reasons I believe in a pre-trib rapture. I barely know where to begin. The biggest reason is my position in Christ. When I read about what the purpose the GT is, and recognize my being a member of the body of Christ on earth I must ask, will I be here after understanding the purpose of the GT by looking at the discriptions of this time?

1) The Day of the Lord (is not the same as the Day of Christ). The Day of the Lord is described below, the Day of Christ is His reign in glory after sin is put down and purged. (Scripture ref. too numorous to list)
2) The day of God's vengence. Isa 34:8; 63:1-6.
3) The time of Jacob's trouble. Jer. 30:7.
4) The seventieth week. Dan. 9:24-27.
5) The time of the end. Dan. 12:9.
6) The hour of His judgment. Rev. 14:7.
7) The great day of His wrath Rev. 6:17.
8) The end of this world. Matt. 13:40, 49.
9) The indignation. Isa. 26:20; 34:2.
10) The overspreding of abomination. Dan. 9:27.
11) The time of trouble such as never was. Dan. 12:1
12) The Tribulation. Matt. 24:21, 29.

To explore then the objective or purpose of the GT which is judgmental and punative in nature, one must ask if indeed those who are vitally joined to the body of Christ will be subjected to His wrath, His judgment, and God's vengence etc. It has nothing to do with how could God leave me here to endure all that, the question is why would He? I am declared righteous before Him in Christ. The GT is not chastisment, but judgment, and I have been declared free from Judgment.

Paul in Ephesians 5:29-32;
"For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

Paul declares that this union is not only a mystery, but a great mystery. He not only is descibing the mystical union we enjoy with Him, but that it's veiled in Scripture until now.

Colossians 3:1-4;
"If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory."

1 Thess 1:10,
"and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

1 Thess. 5:9;
"For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Rev 3:10-12;
"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold,[e] I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name."

Luke 21:34-36;
“But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy[c] to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

So what will be accomplished in The Day of the Lord, not ONE day, but a short period of time at the end of this age.

1) To harvest the crop that has been sown throughout all the ages past.
2) To put down the deciever.
3) To prepare a great martyred multitude for heaven. Rev. 7:19, 14.
4) To prepare a living multitude for the Millennium. Matt 25:32-42.
5) To punish Gentiles. Rom 1:18; 2 Thess 2:11-12.
6) To purge Israel. Ezek 20:37-38; Mal. 3:3.

So considering that the time of the end, or the GT is to punish the ungodly, and I find evidence that God does indeed remove His Saints before His wrath is poured out (Lot from Sodom), and the promises above quoted, I am not without Scriptural support that I will not be here when the wrath of God is poured out on the earth. No amount of argument will convince me otherwise.

kansmith61
Apr 28th 2008, 12:23 AM
So considering that the time of the end, or the GT is to punish the ungodly, and I find evidence that God does indeed remove His Saints before His wrath is poured out (Lot from Sodom), and the promises above quoted, I am not without Scriptural support that I will not be here when the wrath of God is poured out on the earth.

Mark, I agree with you on this. There are too many scriptures that talks about The Wrath of God and what it is. About 10 Years ago I broke out all the lines in Revelations and printed them and went through them line by line. It was interesting of all the Seals, Trumps, Vials and Woes. I have heard many ideas about the rapture and one person was telling his radio people that the ungodly was the ones that was to be raptured out and the godly would remain on the earth. He stated that he had Bible scripture to back it up, but he never quoted any of it at that time.
One of the items I am researching now is why the sudden change of people falling away here in the last days. What about this year 2012. Why is it so important. Who were the Pharisee's in Jesus time.

Ken Smith

danield
Apr 28th 2008, 02:27 AM
Revelation 19:7-9 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and let us give honor to him. For the time has come for the wedding feast of the Lamb, and his bride has prepared herself. 8 She has been given the finest of pure white linen to wear." For the fine linen represents the good deeds of God's holy people. 9 ¶ And the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding feast of the Lamb." And he added, "These are true words that come from God."
Just so you can see the connection to these passages I am going to try and out line them for you.

Revelation 19:7-9 is about the marriage feast. And I see the marriage feast as being directly referenced to Matthew 25:10. Can you not see the correlation to the two events? They fit perfectly.


Matthew 25:10 0 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
And again in Revelation 19.17 it talks about the supper of the great God. It is his marriage feast.

Revelation 19:17 7 ¶ And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Matthew 25:11-12 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
And then again, we can see this comparative that is worded pretty much exactly the same.


Revelation 19:20 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
We can see the judgment that is being poured out on the ones that follow the beast. The ones that took the mark.


Matthew 25:8-9 8 Then the five foolish ones asked the others, 'Please give us some of your oil because our lamps are going out.' 9 "But the others replied, 'We don't have enough for all of us. Go to a shop and buy some for yourselves.'
I do not fear what man can do to me, but I tremble at what God can do. But know that fear is not why I love the lord so much. I love the lord because the things he represents are good and righteous. His will is perfect!

Psalm 111:10 10 Fear of the LORD is the foundation of true wisdom. All who obey his commandments will grow in wisdom. Praise him forever!
Here we see the reward to those who endure the darkness of the tribulation. They are the worthy followers who had enough oil in their lamps to make it to the marriage supper. They gave everything they had including their life to endure great hardships because they loved Jesus so much.

Revelation 20:4-6 4 ¶ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
As far as

Revelation 4:1-2 NLT ¶ Then as I looked, I saw a door standing open in heaven, and the same voice I had heard before spoke to me like a trumpet blast. The voice said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after this." 2 And instantly I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne in heaven and someone sitting on it.
This passage is about John being brought to heaven so he can see what is to take place during the tribulation. This says nothing about the church being raptured. It also says that he is just shown what is going to take place. It does not show that he will be prevented from having to endure such hardships. It also gives John’s message the direct authority from heaven that this is going to happen. The door opens up for John to show you that not all are allow to enter into the kingdom of heaven.


It has nothing to do with how could God leave me here to endure all that, the question is why would He?
How are we any better than say Job or any other of the Lord followers? Are we to allow ourselves to think that we are better than them, and that we can not endure hardships on behalf of our lord and savior? You know we are not.

So considering that the time of the end, or the GT is to punish the ungodly, and I find evidence that God does indeed remove His Saints before His wrath is poured out (Lot from Sodom), and the promises above quoted, I am not without Scriptural support that I will not be here when the wrath of God is poured out on the earth. No amount of argument will convince me otherwise.
You see the GT as punishment, and I see it as a testing time of his followers. The punishment is when they are thrown into the lake of fire. I think you see punishment here on earth as the punishment from God when things go wrong. For instance you see Sodom as being punished by God and that was all there was to it. Well I think there is much more to come. I believe that God decided to do away with the evil here on earth, and his final punishment is yet to come which is much greater than death on earth.

Lot was lead out because he was indeed righteous and those that are righteous during the tribulation will reign with Christ for 1000 years. Some will survive the tribulation and some will not, but the promise to all who do not turn to the beast is everlasting life.


Revelation 20:4 4 ¶ Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

God bless!

third hero
Apr 28th 2008, 02:30 AM
You know, as the archduke of the PSA (Premil Superfriends Association), I was thrilled with the beginning of this thread, especially the OP, since that is what happened to me. But then, we end up with yet another mud-slinging contest and it's getting ugly yet again.

So, in the interest of bringing everyone back to the OP, I will say this:

When I kneeled before the Lord in 1994, I decided to throw away everything I was taught. Remember, for those who had followed the history of the Third Hero, you know that I was raised Baptist and JW. (Talk about a state of confusion!) When I decided to join Lord Jesus's camp, I started reading the Bible, and by then, I was fluent in Elizabethan English, and so th KJV was naturally the choice for me. While I was reading Matthew, I noticed that a lot of things which I was talk was blatantly wrong, and the churches that I went to was telling these lies as though they were the truth. I had no idea that Tithing was actually 10% of everything thqt one OWNED, not what they earned. The same thing happened to me with the end times. What I read completely contradicted what I was taught, even by the JW's that I had to choose to believe what I had read, or believe what they taught me. The choice was easy. I didn't trust people back then anyway.

Clearly, the text written in the Bible is pointed towards the Post-Trib POV, especially Matthew 24:29, IMHO. I have learned not to attempt to have people change their minds, because that truly is not Godly. The truth is the Holy Spirit's and it is up to God to show people what He wants them to believe. What is important is that whatever truth that He has given us, that we must continue to accept it and live faithfully with Him until He returns.

Now, hopefully, the arguements against what I have written will stay within the boundaries of the OP, and this thread can once again be on track.

danield
Apr 28th 2008, 02:45 AM
You know, as the archduke of the PSA (Premil Superfriends Association), I was thrilled with the beginning of this thread, especially the OP, since that is what happened to me. But then, we end up with yet another mud-slinging contest and it's getting ugly yet again.

So, in the interest of bringing everyone back to the OP, I will say this:

Now, hopefully, the arguements against what I have written will stay within the boundaries of the OP, and this thread can once again be on track.

Please know that I am not trying to mudsling. And if anyone thinks I am I will delete all of my posts. That was not my intentions at all. I was just trying to show the best I can how I interpret these scriptures especially with so many views floating around. If I am offensive, please someone coach me as to how I can properly express these views!

I think the world of everyone here in this thread, and hurting anyone feelings is not my intention!

wpm
Apr 28th 2008, 03:48 AM
these threads are so far away from allowing any convincing of each other because we are so fundamentally different in our veiws of the plan of God for man as a whole.

It puts everything we believe concerning escatology at polar opposites that there is no room for comprimise.

Another road block to agreement is that some cannot differentiate tribulation in a general sense to tribulation in a specific sense, we have to be able to discern the difference.



I think if you read this thread you would see that we too believed what you are outlining, but moved after we looked at this matter with an open mind.

There are not too many Posttribs moving to Pretrib. I wonder why?

Paul

third hero
Apr 28th 2008, 03:55 AM
Please know that I am not trying to mudsling. And if anyone thinks I am I will delete all of my posts. That was not my intentions at all. I was just trying to show the best I can how I interpret these scriptures especially with so many views floating around. If I am offensive, please someone coach me as to how I can properly express these views!

I think the world of everyone here in this thread, and hurting anyone feelings is not my intention!

Danield,
What you are asking is extremely difficult, because it is your right to challenge what was presented. I am just one of those old fogies that had my rounds in this forum slinging mud trying to prove my point to others who are just as staunchly against what I was saying. The only thing that I can say is that if you feel compelled to expound on what you believe, do so knowing that there is a 0.000000001% chance of having someone change their mind and be converted over to your side.

Besides, I am not the type that is concerned about other people's feelings, and the admins can tell you all about the infractions I incurred since I joined. All I can say to you is that logic is the best means of bringing your points to light. Make sure that they are sound, so that those who attempt to discredit you would have a great deal of difficulty doing so. That's how I get by these days anyway, and I am sure it will help you as well.

danield
Apr 28th 2008, 04:28 AM
Danield,
What you are asking is extremely difficult, because it is your right to challenge what was presented. I am just one of those old fogies that had my rounds in this forum slinging mud trying to prove my point to others who are just as staunchly against what I was saying. The only thing that I can say is that if you feel compelled to expound on what you believe, do so knowing that there is a 0.000000001% chance of having someone change their mind and be converted over to your side.

Besides, I am not the type that is concerned about other people's feelings, and the admins can tell you all about the infractions I incurred since I joined. All I can say to you is that logic is the best means of bringing your points to light. Make sure that they are sound, so that those who attempt to discredit you would have a great deal of difficulty doing so. That's how I get by these days anyway, and I am sure it will help you as well.

I hear what you are saying third hero, and it is great advice. I respect all that are great Christians on this board. However you see my problem is that I am very bashful about spreading the concerns I see going on today. I see so many wrong doctrines that are being believed by many who have had a very easy life. They believe in Christ but because so many pastors have become so artful in their presentation they bury parts of the scripture so they can grow their ministry. Just like in the pre-trib & the post-trib debate. Pre-trib pastor are so plentiful not because it is correct doctrine, but because it is the happy ending that everyone wants to hear.

And I think I am not doing enough for the lord when I see these sermons, and know how they are deceiving people. How are those people going to react when they fall on hard times? They have heard all their lives that the lord will not fail them, and he won’t, but because they have entrusted a fallible pastor, they may turn their back on the lord. And I have sat there and not said anything to dissuade this belief in order to help prepare them for the challenges ahead. You see that is my dilemma. I feel I am letting down the lord when I stay quiet.

I understand my simple words are not going to fill all Christian’s lamps with oil, but it sure would help those who are caught off guard expecting to be raptured before the GT and followed by Christ glorious return. With all the birth pangs happening, it is hard to sit back and not try and do more to help my fellow man. Even if it is just trying to tell them to get your lamp full because we got a long night ahead of us!

Thanks for your advice though! You are a great Christian and a wonderful blessing to this board for sure!:pp

God bless!

third hero
Apr 28th 2008, 04:41 AM
Danield,
I share your concern, and that zeal has gotten me into some of the most memorable arguments that I have ever been involved in. One that almost gotten at least 4 people expelled from this board, and made me a public enemy. I do know of the potential pitfalls with pre-tribulation rapture. I also know of the potential pitfalls of other doctrines as well.

I am not asking you to be quiet, that is not my intention. What I am asking is that when you return fire that is thrown at you, be precise, calculating, and without malice, knowing that the person that you are conversing with may not understand what you are saying, and others may understand but are so fixated on "code words" that they will focus on that code word and not what you are actually saying. I am still guilty of that, and I am working on changing that.

Observe what people are saying, and note what they are not. Look for the loopholes and use scripture to disprove it. Make sure that the scriptures you use actually prove that point in which you want to make, but not only that verse, but the paragraph that the verse you chose backs that verse up. Come to the table not with passion, but compassion. (Passion under control). Remember, we all only see in part, and until Christ returns, that is the most that we can see... in part.

I hope this helps you out a little.

BTW, I was not referencing you, per se. I was just commenting on how some will just ignore what the actual topic is in order to begin the arguing over which POV is the most accurate. I only hoped that we would go back to the original topic, which is why someone either believes in the Post-Trib camp or why they do not. That's all.