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GaChristian
Apr 24th 2008, 10:30 PM
What are the differences in Refromed and Independent Baptist?? I can't really find anything to distinguish the 2.. thanks.

Buck shot
Apr 25th 2008, 02:32 PM
What are the differences in Refromed and Independent Baptist?? I can't really find anything to distinguish the 2.. thanks.

Well...

This is a tough one. You have to know the churches. I am not sure what the Reformed teach but I can give you some differances in the independent.

The reason I say you have to know the independent churches:

There is an Independent/Fundamental Association that a lot are known as Independent Baptist Churches. These usually stick to the KJV version of the Bible and are very structured in their teaching and have high christian standards for their flock (I think this is a good thing). Most of the churches vote on missionaries to support, that are within their association.
Normal beliefs; Baptisim for membership, 3 services a week, closed or close communion, security of the saints, literal heaven and hell, invitation at both Sunday services, Trinity, and Jesus is the head of the body with the Bible as His perfect word.
There are Independent Baptist like the one that I am a member of that does not belong to an association and pretty much teaches the same but are not restricted to associational guidelines. This can be good or bad depending on the leadership within the flock. An advantage is that we are able to support missionaries from many other groups that are trying to spread God's word. This disadvantage is that if the church started to crumble there is no association to help and the church could go into more liberal teachings if it was lead that way.i have preached for Southern, Independent/Fundamental, Missionary, Regular, and now just Independant Baptist. i have also preached in Methodist and Bible churches.

What I have found is that it is far more important to find out what the leaders within the church teach (as most Baptist Churches are ruled within the church) than to go by the sign out front.

I hope this helps.

I'll be watching to see if someone knows about the Reformed Baptist.

2 Peter 2:20
Apr 25th 2008, 05:54 PM
Well...

This is a tough one. You have to know the churches. I am not sure what the Reformed teach but I can give you some differances in the independent.

The reason I say you have to know the independent churches:

There is an Independent/Fundamental Association that a lot are known as Independent Baptist Churches. These usually stick to the KJV version of the Bible and are very structured in their teaching and have high christian standards for their flock (I think this is a good thing). Most of the churches vote on missionaries to support, that are within their association.
Normal beliefs; Baptisim for membership, 3 services a week, closed or close communion, security of the saints, literal heaven and hell, invitation at both Sunday services, Trinity, and Jesus is the head of the body with the Bible as His perfect word.
There are Independent Baptist like the one that I am a member of that does not belong to an association and pretty much teaches the same but are not restricted to associational guidelines. This can be good or bad depending on the leadership within the flock. An advantage is that we are able to support missionaries from many other groups that are trying to spread God's word. This disadvantage is that if the church started to crumble there is no association to help and the church could go into more liberal teachings if it was lead that way.i have preached for Southern, Independent/Fundamental, Missionary, Regular, and now just Independant Baptist. i have also preached in Methodist and Bible churches.

What I have found is that it is far more important to find out what the leaders within the church teach (as most Baptist Churches are ruled within the church) than to go by the sign out front.

I hope this helps.

I'll be watching to see if someone knows about the Reformed Baptist.

Who would have thought that I could be such good buddies with a Southern, Independent, Fundamental, Missionary Baptist. Most of these kind ride me pretty hard about my beliefs. I don't know why, though?????

But I know that you never will!!:P:P

Buck shot
Apr 26th 2008, 12:32 PM
Who would have thought that I could be such good buddies with a Southern, Independent, Fundamental, Missionary Baptist. Most of these kind ride me pretty hard about my beliefs. I don't know why, though?????

But I know that you never will!!:P:P

:P Maybe it's because they have not seen your heart and like you, enjoy the debates!

It seems the closest brothers love to wrestle. Maybe you are a Baptist and just have not admitted it to yourself :lol:

Either way I am pretty sure you are my brother! :kiss:

Now get up on the fence with me :rofl:

2 Peter 2:20
Apr 26th 2008, 12:55 PM
:P Maybe it's because they have not seen your heart and like you, enjoy the debates!

It seems the closest brothers love to wrestle. Maybe you are a Baptist and just have not admitted it to yourself :lol:

Either way I am pretty sure you are my brother! :kiss:

Now get up on the fence with me :rofl:

And maybe you are NOSAS but haven't admitted it. :hmm:

Freewill Baptist...maybe but that's about as close as I can get.;)

Actually I have visited a Fundamental, Independent, Missionary Baptist church and really enjoyed it...minus the 1611 KJV only and the OSAS statements every 5 minutes.

watchinginawe
Apr 26th 2008, 02:03 PM
What are the differences in Refromed and Independent Baptist?? I can't really find anything to distinguish the 2.. thanks.Do you mean regarding reformed doctrine? A Reformed Baptist Church would be distinguished by the "Reformed" doctrine, something along the lines of Calvinism. I don't think the Independant Baptists are reformed.

Also, though I am not absolutely sure about this, I would say that an Independent Baptist would probably not say they are Protestant, but a Reformed Baptist is Protestant by definition.

I hope that helps.

God Bless!

Buck shot
Apr 28th 2008, 03:51 AM
Do you mean regarding reformed doctrine? A Reformed Baptist Church would be distinguished by the "Reformed" doctrine, something along the lines of Calvinism. I don't think the Independant Baptists are reformed.

Also, though I am not absolutely sure about this, I would say that an Independent Baptist would probably not say they are Protestant, but a Reformed Baptist is Protestant by definition.

I hope that helps.

God Bless!

Some might not call themselves Protestant but the teachings are almost the same. We are all saved by the one and only "I AM".

I have heard many Baptist teach that the Baptist Churches did not come from the reformation period and were around before the "Anabaptist" name was given to them for not baptizing infants.

You can do a wikipedia search of the anabaptist and see the supposed origins. I was taught in Baptist Seminary the origins traced all the way back to the split of the true Church and the Catholic Church when the first Pope came to power.

The problem with that is that if we call those churches that were in fact teaching against the Papal authority our origins, then the churches today are also part of our "church" if they make the same stands. I think we put too much into our denominations.

All of that being said, "history" should be "His Story" and not ours.

What I have learned is that many churches that do not call themselves baptist have the same doctrines as the baptist church. It surprised me at first but then the Lord poked me in the heart. It was like He was saying " Hey dummy, I wrote the same book to teach you all".

I still cannot help you with what the differance in the teachings of the reformed or independant churches are. It could be as small a differance as how they pick their missionaries. That is the only differance in the Texas Southern Baptist and Texas Missionary Baptist (BMA not ABA).

:B I can't wait until we are all united as one church one day!

9Marksfan
Apr 28th 2008, 01:22 PM
My own position would be Reformed Baptist, although I don't attend such a church at present. There are a number of excellent Christians leaders from the Puritans onwards who were Reformed Baptists - here's just a few:-

John Bunyan
John Gill
The Haldane brothers
Wiliam Carey
CH Spurgeon
AW Pink
Peter Masters
John MacArthur
John Piper
Wayne Grudem
DA Carson
Alistair Begg
Al Mohler (OK, I know he's SBC but that's his theology)
Mark Dever

Basically they will adhere to the 1689 London Confession - some (eg Particular or Grace Baptists) will be second degree separatist (pretty well having no fellowship with anyone but themselves) but many (like Piper, Carson and Grudem) have a very wide appeal and influence.

I accept I'm talking about those who are Reformed Baptist in their doctrine, but not necessarily within a Reformed Baptist denomination.

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 03:32 PM
I grew up in an Independent Baptist church. They are not reformed in the sense that they believe all 5 points of Calvinism. They do hold to some of them though. The biggest issue I have with the church I attended was they took traditions of men and made them doctrines of God by calling them "standards".

timmyb
May 3rd 2008, 12:42 AM
i had a presbyterian once tell me that there is no such thing as a 3 point calvinist...

I find some parts of it unbiblical... but that's not for here

9Marksfan
May 3rd 2008, 10:12 PM
i had a presbyterian once tell me that there is no such thing as a 3 point calvinist...

I find some parts of it unbiblical... but that's not for here

Hmm - not sure that's so off topic! We are talking about the differences between Independent and Reformed Baptist Churches, so I think it is relevant to look at these Reformned doctrines - the Mods of this board will no doubt chime in if we're going TOO off topic!

So, which parts of Calvinism do you think are unbiblical? There are verses for all five points, so I'd be interested to see where you think it becomes unbiblical....

timmyb
May 3rd 2008, 11:02 PM
i would rather not open that can of worms in this section of the forums.... This wouldn't be all that bad a subject for the Bible Chat section....

i would rather keep things light in this section of the forums.... this is supposed to be fun section right?

9Marksfan
May 3rd 2008, 11:52 PM
i would rather not open that can of worms in this section of the forums.... This wouldn't be all that bad a subject for the Bible Chat section....

i would rather keep things light in this section of the forums.... this is supposed to be fun section right?

Who says debating doctrine can't be fun?!?! Or done in a fun way?!?!

timmyb
May 4th 2008, 02:00 AM
Who says debating doctrine can't be fun?!?! Or done in a fun way?!?!

I'm not mature enough in my walk as a Christian to consider debating doctrine fun... I am here to sharpen myself on what I believe... I still get frustrated when I debate... I usually leave drained and frustrated... I have a hard time getting up from a debate and just saying "Oh Boy, that was fun!"...

9Marksfan
May 4th 2008, 02:35 PM
I'm not mature enough in my walk as a Christian to consider debating doctrine fun... I am here to sharpen myself on what I believe... I still get frustrated when I debate... I usually leave drained and frustrated... I have a hard time getting up from a debate and just saying "Oh Boy, that was fun!"...

OK, didn't mean to belittle things - I agree. But I believe that it's possible to sharpen one's faith by examining these things in a non-confrontational way - I guess fun was the wrong word - sorry - I'm actually not sure Solomon's Porch is either meant to be just fun or whether this thread is on the right board! But either way, the differences between Independent and Reformed Baptists are largely doctrinal, so if that isn't what the OP or others were expecting, then maybe it should go onto another board - any ideas Mods?

Buck shot
May 5th 2008, 10:52 PM
OK, didn't mean to belittle things - I agree. But I believe that it's possible to sharpen one's faith by examining these things in a non-confrontational way - I guess fun was the wrong word - sorry - I'm actually not sure Solomon's Porch is either meant to be just fun or whether this thread is on the right board! But either way, the differences between Independent and Reformed Baptists are largely doctrinal, so if that isn't what the OP or others were expecting, then maybe it should go onto another board - any ideas Mods?
I think the original question was more on the basics line instead of a deep study. I would like to hear more of the reformed doctrine but you are right we should start that in another part of the forum :hmm:

GodlyDads
May 7th 2008, 03:03 PM
I picked up the Reformation Study Bible and it has lots of commentary with the reformed theological oppinion. It's pretty interesting.


--------------
GodlyDads.com (http://www.GodlyDads.com) -- A Blog About Godly Fathering

theabaud
May 7th 2008, 09:30 PM
I grew up in an Independent Baptist church. They are not reformed in the sense that they believe all 5 points of Calvinism. They do hold to some of them though. The biggest issue I have with the church I attended was they took traditions of men and made them doctrines of God by calling them "standards".
Most standards are based on biblical guidlines, but you are correct, many of us IFB's take those guidelines and build upon them to the point of doctrine.

I was talking to an evangelist a couple of weeks ago who told me that many churches were putting standards ahead of the main thing. My response was, "you mean skirts are not a part of the Gospel?" :lol:

BTW, I only know of one debatable standard (IMO) in the circles I run in and that is the skirt standard (which my family holds). Some guys talk about how close hair should be to their head and beards but those people are normally reasonable enough to say that is their opinion. there are many others that folks can attack as "traditions of men" but I can show you in a Bible on most if not all of those why we have that stand.

Buck shot
May 8th 2008, 05:39 PM
Most standards are based on biblical guidlines, but you are correct, many of us IFB's take those guidelines and build upon them to the point of doctrine.

I was talking to an evangelist a couple of weeks ago who told me that many churches were putting standards ahead of the main thing. My response was, "you mean skirts are not a part of the Gospel?" :lol:

BTW, I only know of one debatable standard (IMO) in the circles I run in and that is the skirt standard (which my family holds). Some guys talk about how close hair should be to their head and beards but those people are normally reasonable enough to say that is their opinion. there are many others that folks can attack as "traditions of men" but I can show you in a Bible on most if not all of those why we have that stand.

We don't allow men to were skirts either :rofl:

I'm just joking! My wife was raised in a southern Church of Christ, she could not even fall into the door of a church without a dress on :lol:

She does like the piano and string instruments now though :hmm:

Brother Mark
May 8th 2008, 05:54 PM
Most standards are based on biblical guidlines, but you are correct, many of us IFB's take those guidelines and build upon them to the point of doctrine.

I heard about skirts, length of hair, public schools, drums in church, the beat of music, etc. ,etc., etc. They should have stuck with the biblical guidelines and left the rest up to God and the individual, but they didn't.


BTW, I only know of one debatable standard (IMO) in the circles I run in and that is the skirt standard (which my family holds). Some guys talk about how close hair should be to their head and beards but those people are normally reasonable enough to say that is their opinion. there are many others that folks can attack as "traditions of men" but I can show you in a Bible on most if not all of those why we have that stand.

The guidelines are for all people. The standards are for those that decide that is how they think God wants them to dress, etc. But it ain't there (in scripture) when it comes to how long is long hair and skirts vs slacks for women and believe me, I know the scriptures the Baptist refer too. Heard em all the time growing up. Scripture doesn't address those issues. And it also makes exceptions (see Nazarite vows).

theabaud
May 8th 2008, 06:31 PM
I heard about skirts, length of hair, public schools, drums in church, the beat of music, etc. ,etc., etc. They should have stuck with the biblical guidelines and left the rest up to God and the individual, but they didn't.
The Skirt argument is faulty all over the place, but I agree with the standard, that is the way my family has chosen to meet the scriptural call for modesty and separation.

Length of hair is there, but it is a very much cultural thing. The measure should be," how long can my hair before it is more like the world than decency allows?" A preacher friend told me his standard is whether or not you can tell he is a man from behind.

The public school and drums in church issue does bother me. These are not biblical standards. As a matter of fact drums are in the Bible and we are told to praise God on the drums.

I don't want to turn this thread into a music debate, so I will leave "the beat of music alone other than to say that our music can't be the same as top 40 radio. It sends a mixed message. I know many disagree, but 1st john tells us very clearly we are not to love the world nor the things of the world. That would include our worship.




The guidelines are for all people. The standards are for those that decide that is how they think God wants them to dress, etc. But it ain't there (in scripture) when it comes to how long is long hair and skirts vs slacks for women and believe me, I know the scriptures the Baptist refer too. [/quote]Standards should not be viewed as Bible. Many men err on this. Standards are the method not the command.


Heard em all the time growing up. Scripture doesn't address those issues. And it also makes exceptions (see Nazarite vows).When was the last time you met a Nazerite? Srsly. I don't see a need, but if a guy wants to fulfill all of the requirements then I ain't going to stop them. Fact is that most Christians who point to the Nazerite just want long hair, not the sanctification of the Nazerite.

timmyb
May 9th 2008, 07:06 PM
OK, didn't mean to belittle things - I agree. But I believe that it's possible to sharpen one's faith by examining these things in a non-confrontational way - I guess fun was the wrong word - sorry - I'm actually not sure Solomon's Porch is either meant to be just fun or whether this thread is on the right board! But either way, the differences between Independent and Reformed Baptists are largely doctrinal, so if that isn't what the OP or others were expecting, then maybe it should go onto another board - any ideas Mods?

thank you for understanding... I want to be able to discuss the apostles doctrine and come to an understanding on it... thanks for being patient with me

Brother Mark
May 9th 2008, 11:31 PM
The Skirt argument is faulty all over the place

I agree.


but I agree with the standard, that is the way my family has chosen to meet the scriptural call for modesty and separation. Nothing wrong with personal conviction. We just can't teach that as a standard for others. Then we start preaching traditions of men as doctrines of God.


Length of hair is there, but it is a very much cultural thing. The measure should be," how long can my hair before it is more like the world than decency allows?" A preacher friend told me his standard is whether or not you can tell he is a man from behind. It's in one verse. It was a HUGE deal in the church I went to. One verse and it was BIG deal. That's what amazes me. All the while they ignored the weightier passages of scripture that Jesus spoke over and over and over again.


The public school and drums in church issue does bother me. These are not biblical standards. As a matter of fact drums are in the Bible and we are told to praise God on the drums. Yep. But they use the same arguments you do for top 40 music. Gotta be different from the world. To me, that's not a sound argument. Just because the world goes fishing is not reason enough for me to give it up.


I don't want to turn this thread into a music debate, so I will leave "the beat of music alone other than to say that our music can't be the same as top 40 radio. It sends a mixed message. I know many disagree, but 1st john tells us very clearly we are not to love the world nor the things of the world. That would include our worship.Addressed that above. Ever wonder where the music from some of those old hymns come from? :hmm:


Standards should not be viewed as Bible. Many men err on this. Standards are the method not the command.

When was the last time you met a Nazerite? Srsly. I don't see a need, but if a guy wants to fulfill all of the requirements then I ain't going to stop them. Fact is that most Christians who point to the Nazerite just want long hair, not the sanctification of the Nazerite.Even so, it's there. As a matter of fact, there is FAR more scripture concerning a Nazerite than there is concerning man's culture concerning long hair.

theabaud
May 10th 2008, 03:33 AM
Even so, it's there. As a matter of fact, there is FAR more scripture concerning a Nazerite than there is concerning man's culture concerning long hair.One verse is more than enough when it comes from the mouth of God.

As to music, we have a form of music that was built around rebellion, sex and grew up into drugs and occaisional blasphemy and we took that and wrote Jesus into it and said Yay! its christian!

I ain't buying it.

Brother Mark
May 10th 2008, 04:00 AM
One verse is more than enough when it comes from the mouth of God.

One's enough. But when one verse is pushed above many others, it's a problem. Jesus called it "straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel".


As to music, we have a form of music that was built around rebellion, sex and grew up into drugs and occaisional blasphemy and we took that and wrote Jesus into it and said Yay! its christian!

I ain't buying it.
As I said, ever do any research on where the music for some of those old hymns we sing comes from?

Good took me, a man full of rebellion, sex and blashepmey, and put Jesus into me and that changed everything. ;) Give me scripture that preaches against the beat, and we can make a doctrine out of it. Till then, it just personal conviction.

2 Peter 2:20
May 12th 2008, 01:25 AM
One's enough. But when one verse is pushed above many others, it's a problem. Jesus called it "straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel".


As I said, ever do any research on where the music for some of those old hymns we sing comes from?

Good took me, a man full of rebellion, sex and blashepmey, and put Jesus into me and that changed everything. ;) Give me scripture that preaches against the beat, and we can make a doctrine out of it. Till then, it just personal conviction.

Very true...
Just as language is constantly changing, music is constantly changing as well. Do we actually think that the early church sang Amazing Grace? I'm sure it was a completely different sound than what we traditionalists would consider traditional. Unless there were Southern Baptist's in Greece, Rome, etc.

Buck shot
May 12th 2008, 03:27 AM
Very true...
Just as language is constantly changing, music is constantly changing as well. Do we actually think that the early church sang Amazing Grace? I'm sure it was a completely different sound than what we traditionalists would consider traditional. Unless there were Southern Baptist's in Greece, Rome, etc.

I think his name was John the _______. :lol:

mcgyver
May 12th 2008, 04:58 AM
Where were we? :lol:

Oh Yeah....:P

Speaking as a Baptist, there are 3 primary "flavors" of Baptist churches (at least in my experience) :rolleyes:



Calvinistic in terms of election/predestination...which would include those churches of the Reformed Tradition...e.g. Reformed Baptist
Middle of the Road...Not exactly Calvinistic, not exactly Arminian. For the most part they believe in the eternal security of the believer (as do Calvinists), but they also hold to Individual Soul Liberty (Arminian). Their distinction is best defined as: Believing that God calls all to Christ in His sovereignty, allows men to accept or reject the offer of salvation (recognizing man's "free will" in the matter), but once one has been born again, God in His sovereignty steps in to keep the person secure in their salvation. Incidentally, most of the SBC churches fall into this category.
Arminian (e.g. Free Will Baptist)...subscribing fully to the points of remonstrance as published by Arminius' followers. Do not believe in the eternal security of the believer.

As I said...these are the Primary types...but there can be quite a wide variance within each type, as Baptist churches are congregationalist in nature.

Hope this helps some....:)

P.S. Anybody remember some of the old Baptist churches that had a yardstick tacked to the jamb of the door (so women could check the hem-length of their dresses?) :rolleyes:

Buck shot
May 12th 2008, 05:01 PM
Where were we? :lol:

Oh Yeah....:P


P.S. Anybody remember some of the old Baptist churches that had a yardstick tacked to the jamb of the door (so women could check the hem-length of their dresses?) :rolleyes:

I always wondered what that was for :lol: I thought maybe that was in case a switch was not to be found :spin: