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seamus414
Apr 25th 2008, 12:51 PM
I see that the rules of the board say it is a sin and that is, indeed, the traditional view of the Church. My question is why is it a sin? What scriptures speak to it?

daughter
Apr 25th 2008, 01:13 PM
Is it possible to masturbate without commiting fornication in your heart? Even if it's some faceless person that you're fantasising about, it's still a sin.

Slug1
Apr 25th 2008, 01:18 PM
Galatians 5:16 begins the conviction for me. This was one of my sins of the flesh. I to, looked through the Bible for the specific words, "masterbation is a sin" but never found the specific words. I have since learned the difference between challenging the Bible with "the letter of the word" instead of understanding the "Spirit of the Word".

As a matter of fact Galatians 5:16-26 says it all and masterbation is a sin against the Spirit and thus against God.

Walking in the Spirit
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=5&version=50#fen-NKJV-29176c)] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=5&version=50#fen-NKJV-29178d)] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

seamus414
Apr 25th 2008, 01:25 PM
Is it possible to masturbate without commiting fornication in your heart? Even if it's some faceless person that you're fantasising about, it's still a sin.

I guess that is a question. If one engages in the pursuit of pure physical pleasure with no lust is it still a sin?

I also would like to ask this question: fornication is sexual relations of an unmarried persons (I assume you would also say "adultery in your heart" so I will include that here). When you say fornication/adultery what do you mean? Obviously not the actual act as masturbation is fantasy. So, do you mean it by the actual desire to have sex with this person or sexual arousal caused by that person?

Also, is manual gratification permitted between married couples? Or if I were fantasizing about my wife?

Gentile
Apr 25th 2008, 01:33 PM
Why then did GOD gives us sexual urges. If someone is single, a widow, etc. you will need a release at some point. Bottling it up to long will drive you nuts plus it is unhealthy for your system

So what if a guy has to go to a sperm bank to give sperm or has some health issues. In these doctor offices they have porn mags and videos in a room for you to use so you can get a sample. What do you say to the doctor, no I can't do this because maybe its a sin? How do you give your sample then?

Brother Mark
Apr 25th 2008, 01:36 PM
Why then did GOD gives us sexual urges. If someone is single, a widow, etc. you will need a release at some point. Bottling it up to long will drive you nuts plus it is unhealthy for your system

Night emissions take care of this with no problem. God gave us sexual urges to encourage marriage. As Paul said, it's better to marry than to burn. No need for masturbation.


So what if a guy has to go to a sperm bank to give sperm or has some health issues. In these doctor offices they have porn mags and videos in a room for you to use so you can get a sample. What do you say to the doctor, no I can't do this because maybe its a sin? How do you give your sample then?


You don't give a sample. It's rather simple when we get down to it. Porn is never OK. Lust is never OK. Masturbation is a deed of the flesh and not a work of the Spirit.

Gentile
Apr 25th 2008, 02:43 PM
Night emissions take care of this with no problem. God gave us sexual urges to encourage marriage. As Paul said, it's better to marry than to burn. No need for masturbation.




You don't give a sample. It's rather simple when we get down to it. Porn is never OK. Lust is never OK. Masturbation is a deed of the flesh and not a work of the Spirit.


Say in the case of artificial insemination, you need to give sperm to your wife. Then what do you do, sorry honey no kids I can't give a sample because its a sin :rolleyes:

Brother Mark
Apr 25th 2008, 02:51 PM
Say in the case of artificial insemination, you need to give sperm to your wife. Then what do you do, sorry honey no kids I can't give a sample because its a sin :rolleyes:

The marriage bed is undefiled. You and her can go at it any way you wish, barring sodomy. Save a sample if you wish...

Slug1
Apr 25th 2008, 02:52 PM
I thought this medical proceedure "takes" the required sperm from the man :hmm:

seamus414
Apr 25th 2008, 02:54 PM
"Gentile" - your point about artificial insemination is a good point. To be honest I think your other post is a little to flip for me. I think it is an important issue but we need to be clear on things and porn is clearly sinful.


"Brother Mark" - why no sodomy? Where is THAT in the Bible?

I feel like with these sexual sins we know the basics: (1) fornication is sin; (2) adultery is sin; (3) porn is sin; (4) lust for someone who is not your spouse is a sin; (5) homosexual behaviour is a sin. But the details are very unclear and not specifically stated in Scripture.

Where does the sin lie if one masterbates merely for sexual release?

Where does the sin lie with marital sodomy?

HisLeast
Apr 25th 2008, 03:01 PM
I thought this medical proceedure "takes" the required sperm from the man :hmm:

Interesting question. Why would they remove it surgically if the couple is together, yet for artificial (and anonymous) insemination the donations are taken via plastic cup and choice of magazine. :hmm:

HisLeast
Apr 25th 2008, 03:03 PM
Where does the sin lie if one masterbates merely for sexual release?

In Leviticus a man is considered unclean and has to stay outside the camp even if he had an involuntary nocturnal emmision.

seamus414
Apr 25th 2008, 03:05 PM
In Leviticus a man is considered unclean and has to stay outside the camp even if he had an involuntary nocturnal emmision.

Citation please?

Slug1
Apr 25th 2008, 03:07 PM
Interesting question. Why would they remove it surgically if the couple is together, yet for artificial (and anonymous) insemination the donations are taken via plastic cup and choice of magazine. :hmm:I just tossed this in for the fact that some people that are doing this proceedure may also be convicted not to masterbate... commen sense this would be an unsteril environment but I'll admit I have absolutely no idea as I've never had to do anything like this. Just seems that taking the sperm would be the normal way to do this.

Gentile
Apr 25th 2008, 03:16 PM
The marriage bed is undefiled. You and her can go at it any way you wish, barring sodomy. Save a sample if you wish...

I have relatives that had to go through this procedure. You have to do it at the doctors office, you can't bring sperm in it dies once it hits oxygen. Lets be a little realistic here, GOD is not going to punish you because you masturbated in order to create life.

daughter
Apr 25th 2008, 03:25 PM
Night emissions take care of this with no problem. God gave us sexual urges to encourage marriage. As Paul said, it's better to marry than to burn. No need for masturbation.




You don't give a sample. It's rather simple when we get down to it. Porn is never OK. Lust is never OK. Masturbation is a deed of the flesh and not a work of the Spirit.
My husband had a surgical retrieval. It wasn't in the least bit pleasant. I suppose if he'd been well enough I'd have helped him... but that wasn't a possibility. It's a tricky thing though, and I wouldn't judge someone who was doing it for a medical reason, or to have a child.

PrayerInMemphis
Apr 25th 2008, 03:26 PM
I don't know of any fertility procedure that would require the sperm to be 'taken' from the man. not only would a procedure like that be very intrusive, it would also be very unecessary in most cases.

there are many, many fertility procedures that would require the man to give a sperm sample though...even if he is trying to concieve a child with his wife, it may be necessary to give a sperm sample to identify specific fertility problems.

most clinics will ban the wife from being in the room at the time the sample is given so as not to contaminate the specimen. for this same reason, a sample must be given on-location rather than being brought in.

all that being said, masturbation is something you should seek the Lord's opinion on, rather than my own.

daughter
Apr 25th 2008, 03:39 PM
My husband was extremely ill, hence the surgical procedure, which was so horrible that I really wish he hadn't been that determined for us to have a child. They tried first with a hyperdermic needle, that didn't work, and then they used scalpels. All the time he held my hand and told me not to worry, it didn't hurt... (I'm pretty sure it did.) So far my attempts at conceiving have failed, and I feel pretty bad about it after everything he went through.

I've got another few attempts before I run out of viable sample, and I must admit, I wonder if we didn't do the wrong thing. This procedure occured three weeks before he died, and I think perhaps we were asking something from God because we wanted it (a child) rather than because it was His will. I know that if it's not God's will, then I won't conceive. But I do feel I have to try at least once more, to make sure that I honour my husband's attempts.

However... we're off track a bit. Yes, there are times when it's potentially okay to masturbate. But I think it's something that ideally you should do with your spouse.

Brother Mark
Apr 25th 2008, 03:43 PM
My husband had a surgical retrieval. It wasn't in the least bit pleasant. I suppose if he'd been well enough I'd have helped him... but that wasn't a possibility. It's a tricky thing though, and I wouldn't judge someone who was doing it for a medical reason, or to have a child.

A surgical retrieval doesn't involved lust though. But for a man to be aroused, and to masturbate, that is another story indeed.

HisLeast
Apr 25th 2008, 03:48 PM
Citation please?

Leviticus 15:16

Zacharia
Apr 25th 2008, 04:05 PM
I would have to put almost th entire Bible down here to quote the scripure on people that thought only of themselves. I will just type about the people who had Jesus cruxcified, they were thinking only of them self from the high priest down to the scribes.

My point is no matter how it is labeled any action and thoughts that are just about self in a sexual or any other way, are a seperation from God and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ led his whole life sinless. To be a member of the Body of Christ then we must also do our best to serve Christ.

For if you want to know why it is a sin, you should read the Bible yourself and you would already have the answer with out having to ask. My opinion is that so many people here serch for answers without doing the homework aka research on the Lord and his way. By asking others to do it, you will not gain any rewards that you are seeking.

What I suggest is that you do the homework yourself and come back and post again, quoting the scripture you found and ask if that is the answer. Pray before you read the Bible for understanding of what you read. I would be happy to answer your question on the scripture you find.

Your question should of been, why don't Jesus serve me instead of me serving him? For in essence that is what you are stating all about self!

May the Holy Spirit Bless you, so that you may Glorify the Father through Christ.

Reverend Kevin

seamus414
Apr 25th 2008, 04:06 PM
Leviticus 15:16

Wouldn't this same passage apply to conventional sex as well (i.e.: 15:18)?

seamus414
Apr 25th 2008, 04:10 PM
I would have to put almost th entire Bible down here to quote the scripure on people that thought only of themselves. I will just type about the people who had Jesus cruxcified, they were thinking only of them self from the high priest down to the scribes.

My point is no matter how it is labeled any action and thoughts that are just about self in a sexual or any other way, are a seperation from God and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ led his whole life sinless. To be a member of the Body of Christ then we must also do our best to serve Christ.

For if you want to know why it is a sin, you should read the Bible yourself and you would already have the answer with out having to ask. My opinion is that so many people here serch for answers without doing the homework aka research on the Lord and his way. By asking others to do it, you will not gain any rewards that you are seeking.

What I suggest is that you do the homework yourself and come back and post again, quoting the scripture you found and ask if that is the answer. Pray before you read the Bible for understanding of what you read. I would be happy to answer your question on the scripture you find.

Your question should of been, why don't Jesus serve me instead of me serving him? For in essence that is what you are stating all about self!

May the Holy Spirit Bless you, so that you may Glorify the Father through Christ.

Reverend Kevin


YOur post is very vague and apparently intentionally so. What do you mean by "self"? Are you saying, then, in the context of sex, someone should not want to have sex because it makes them feel good? One can still "do the research" and not be clear on what the Scripture says on a topic. I would appreciate it if you could acknowledge that I have reviewed the Scriptures and I found the answer to the quesiton unclear which led to my post.

IamBill
Apr 25th 2008, 04:38 PM
Wouldn't this same passage apply to conventional sex as well (i.e.: 15:18)?

actually if you read on 15:19-23, I hardly think you will find a women today who, basically would have to stand isolated in a closet for a week.


Interesting, important topic!

IamBill
Apr 25th 2008, 04:43 PM
I wonder if these are issues of health/cleanliness rather than sin ? :hmm:

NHL Fever
Apr 25th 2008, 04:58 PM
Just a quick input here. A semen sample has to be given at the lab itself in order for it to be a good sample. Some generally common reasons to give a sample:
- For in-vitro fertilization for couples having trouble conceiving
- To investigate for male causes of infertility (the semen is examined under microscope to determine number of sperm, semen volume, motility of sperm and morphology of sperm)
- To culture the semen and grow organisms, in order to diagnose an infection of the testicle, epididymis, or most commonly the prostate

Investigation of infertility is probably the most common reason

Sometimes through for whatever reason, the man can only emit semen with no sperm, or no viable sperm. In this case a surgical procedure can be undertaken to extract the sperm directly from the testicle, and used for IVF or ICSI.

I think the strongest argument against masturbation from a moral point of view is the 'honoring the flesh' idea. Because there are people who can go without, means that its possible to go without. For those married, husbands should be honest with their wives about their needs and not embarrassed about it, and undertake sexual activity with your wives. Wives, its humiliating to ask for sex, be sensitive to your husbands needs and don't put them in a position of temptation or need to consider masturbation. Even if its mainly the husband's pride that prevents them from communicating properly about their needs, remove the incentive for them to sin if you care more about a righteous lifestyle than your own pride or convenience.

daughter
Apr 25th 2008, 05:27 PM
By the way... why the assumption that this is only a problem men have? Women have sexual needs too, and it's not only men who have to ask their spouses for sex. I think women are more ashamed to admit to admitting to lusts of the flesh than men. (There you go, I might be the first female on this board to have admitted that!) It's humiliating to ask for sex whatever your gender. Well, it can be, potentially... it wasn't for me, because my husband was very understanding. But we shouldn't assume that it's only men who struggle with lust.

IamBill
Apr 25th 2008, 06:02 PM
daughter, your honesty sets a good example for others :)
(I just wanted to mention that).

IamBill
Apr 25th 2008, 06:08 PM
I wonder, would anyone say that there is a difference between, "just cuz it feels good", and a man for instance, having to where a long coat all day at work because, well, Because. ?

One is certainly lust!

moonglow
Apr 25th 2008, 07:26 PM
Leviticus 15:16

Reading that in content a person can tell something isn't quite right there...so I checked two bible commentaries and both say this is talking about a STD...

David Guzik's Commentaries on the Bible (http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=le&chapter=015)


Leviticus 15 - Laws Concerning Bodily Discharges

A. Bodily discharges from a man.

1. (1-15) An abnormal bodily discharge.

a. The idea is of some obviously abnormal genital discharge, indicating some type of disease. When this occurs, one had to be somewhat isolated in order not to pass on the infection to anyone else.

b. After the discharge had stopped, a sacrifice had to be made.

2. (16-18) Normal bodily discharge.

a. When a man discharged semen, either accidentally or in sex, he had to cleanse himself and have a brief time of ceremonial impurity - both he and his wife, in the case of sexual relations.

B. Bodily discharges from a woman.

1. (19-24) Impurity during menstruation.

2. (25-30) Unusual or abnormal bodily discharge.

3. (31-33) Summation of the laws of bodily discharge.

a. When they defile my tabernacle: None of these discharges would make a man or a woman "sinful," only ceremonially unclean. But why? Beyond whatever hygienic reasons, discharges of semen and menstruation are included, not because there is anything inherently wrong with them, but the two are connected with symbols of life and redemption, blood and seed.

b. There was a separation between sex and the worship of God; this might seem obvious, but in the ancient world, it was common to worship the gods by having sex with temple prostitutes.

4. The laws of cleanliness in a New Testament perspective.

a. In Mark 7:1-9 Jesus criticized the Pharisees for their over-emphasis on ceremonial cleanliness and their lack of regard for internal cleanliness. These laws were meant to have both hygienic reasons and spiritual applications; they were never meant to be the way to be right with God.

b. Are we bound by these laws? The issue was settled in Acts 15; when it was determined that one could be a follower of Jesus without the ritual conformity to the Mosaic law.

c. Most of all, we must remember Jesus is the One who makes us clean and fit for fellowship: You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you (John 15:3). As you receive from the Word of God, you are being cleansed!

i. Our cleanliness is complete as we abide in Jesus: 1 John 1:7-9 - But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is a really hard topic for me to talk about because my opinions go against the general norm...so not wanting to be unpopular or scolded I don't usually say anything. :cool: I will this time for some dumb reason...I haven't decided yet. But people are saying our bodies do things without us engaging in any lustful acts or thoughts because that is how our bodies are made. So it seems to me, common sense would tell us, in order to stop those feelings...or possible really doing something we shouldn't like go hang out in a bar and pick up someone for a one night stand because we can no longer stand that feeling... doing this would help and it can be done without having lustful thoughts! It really can. Kind of like brushing your teeth.. (I know no one will believe me on this but I don't see why not...our bodies get these feelings all by themselves to start with) If we really want to avoid ALL pleasures of the flesh, we need to stop watching TV, stop having deserts or any meals we enjoy, stop going for walks in the park, stop doing a billion other things because they are pleasant to do.

Now I can understand this is highly discouraged because it has lead to so many being addicted to this kind of pleasure and having lustful thoughts and it can be a terrible trap to fall into. But honestly people get addicted to all sorts of things.. ..I have seen people on shows on TV addicted to exercising, weight lifting, even tap dancing! To the point they were either injuring themselves or weren't paying their bills in order to afford these fleshly pleasures. Now I realize sexual sins is HIGH on the lists of sins listed in the bible and there is a reason for that...but for most of us, we cannot just run out and find someone to marry to avoid having to deal with what our bodies are doing and it can be torturous....which then can lead to acting out with others sexually. So then what does the person do? Choose between two sins to commit? Most of those saying its a sin are married...I would like to hear from those that are single and have been for years and years. Even Dr. Dobson is taking another look at this issue, mostly for the sake of young men, and he used to be extremely strict on this also. Saying totally no to it he is seeing after years of saying that is actually causing more problems and more sins to happen. I can see if I can find anything on his site about it.

Every scriptures I have seen presented against this does not really address it...I see people adding in their own ideas of what it means such as this Leviticus. Paul makes it clear not everyone is to marry. Having these feelings though isn't just taken away for those blessed with singleness. Right now in the world there are many more women then men...so many, many women simply cannot get married. So what are they to do?

God bless

Gentile
Apr 25th 2008, 08:28 PM
By the way... why the assumption that this is only a problem men have? Women have sexual needs too, and it's not only men who have to ask their spouses for sex. I think women are more ashamed to admit to admitting to lusts of the flesh than men. (There you go, I might be the first female on this board to have admitted that!) It's humiliating to ask for sex whatever your gender. Well, it can be, potentially... it wasn't for me, because my husband was very understanding. But we shouldn't assume that it's only men who struggle with lust.


I like your honesty! its great you are saying this. Sex is a natural part of us as human beings. Its part of our genetic makeup.

Brother Mark
Apr 25th 2008, 08:29 PM
I like your honesty! its great you are saying this. Sex is a natural part of us as human beings. Its part of our genetic makeup.

Of course it is! And that desire is to be met in the marriage bed. ;)

thethirdtuttle
Apr 25th 2008, 09:02 PM
Moonglow:

Thanks for your "dissenting opinion," as it would be called if we were the United States Supreme Court. I was single for a long time (almost 35 years!) before I was married, and am a male, so I feel at least somewhat qualified to speak on this topic. My experience has been that, before I was married, I masturbated, on average, five or six times a week. Now that I am married, however, it has dropped down to maybe once or twice a week (more if it's "that time of the month"). Now, the two big questions are, why did my frequency go down so dramatically, and why didn't it stop altogether? After all, now that I'm getting "the real thing," so to speak, why do I still feel it is necessary to resort to fantasy from time to time? IMHO, it is possible that, for men at least (I don't claim to speak for women because I'm not one!), masturbation is one of those things that God graciously built in, after the Fall, to help us deal with stress and satisfy our God-given sexual urges when sex with our spouses is just not possible, or, for those who are not married, to release built-up pressures. After all, not everyone is called to be married, and since the sex drive is given to all human beings, there must be a way for those called to singleness, for whatever reason, to satisfy those God-given desires. That's just my two cents, though. I could be totally off-base. It's been known to happen. Any further thoughts/ideas/insights/comments/questions, etc., would be greatly appreciated!

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin

moonglow
Apr 25th 2008, 11:11 PM
Moonglow:

Thanks for your "dissenting opinion," as it would be called if we were the United States Supreme Court. I was single for a long time (almost 35 years!) before I was married, and am a male, so I feel at least somewhat qualified to speak on this topic. My experience has been that, before I was married, I masturbated, on average, five or six times a week. Now that I am married, however, it has dropped down to maybe once or twice a week (more if it's "that time of the month"). Now, the two big questions are, why did my frequency go down so dramatically, and why didn't it stop altogether? After all, now that I'm getting "the real thing," so to speak, why do I still feel it is necessary to resort to fantasy from time to time? IMHO, it is possible that, for men at least (I don't claim to speak for women because I'm not one!), masturbation is one of those things that God graciously built in, after the Fall, to help us deal with stress and satisfy our God-given sexual urges when sex with our spouses is just not possible, or, for those who are not married, to release built-up pressures. After all, not everyone is called to be married, and since the sex drive is given to all human beings, there must be a way for those called to singleness, for whatever reason, to satisfy those God-given desires. That's just my two cents, though. I could be totally off-base. It's been known to happen. Any further thoughts/ideas/insights/comments/questions, etc., would be greatly appreciated!

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin

Well you are more brutally honest that probably anyone expected, and many might not want to hear! lol. But thanks for explaining your thoughts on this. And this was my point...since everyone has this desire...but not every can get married...then we have a problem here don't we? Or like in your case waiting 35 years to get married! This is such a touchy subject and can go wrong in so many ways, and is why I usually avoid it. It can appear as if someone like myself is condoning or encouraging sin which obviously I don't want to do and I am sure some are already convinced I am. I think there is a very fine line here for sure and usually why I avoid this topic in the first place.

As I said before sexual sins are brought up constantly in both the OT and NT...but everyone of them is talking about involving another person with one expection: Jesus said...'even looking at a women with lust in your heart, you have already committed adultery'.(Matthew 5:27-28)..is why this is usually thought of as a sin because of the thought process involved. But yet many times its not our thoughts that bring on these feelings in the first place because its simply the way our bodies were made. There IS a difference. The problem is most think the two cannot be separated, but I disagree with that because Jesus says we can control our thoughts..otherwise He would not hold us accountable for them as He does in this verse and many others.

How many married couples, during their time together, are thinking of other things? She is thinking about what to put on the shopping list and he is thinking about working on the car? It does happen and any married person, if they are honest, will admit this is true. Our mind can be a million miles away while actively being with our spouse! So why can't this other be true also and the mind not engage in fantasy or lustful thoughts of another person?

Anyway I found what Dr. Dobson says on this subject:

Question:
My thirteen-year-old son is in the full bloom of adolescence. I'm suspicious that he may be masturbating when he's alone, but I don't quite know how to approach him about it. Should I be concerned, and if so, what should I say to him?

Dr. Dobson Responds:
I don't think you should invade that private world at all unless there are unique circumstances that lead you to do so. I offer that advice while acknowledging that masturbation is a highly controversial subject and Christian leaders differ widely in their perspectives on it. I will answer your question but hope you understand that some Bible scholars will disagree emphatically with what I will say.

First, let's consider masturbation from a medical perspective. We can say without fear of contradiction that there is no scientific evidence to indicate that this act is harmful to the body. Despite terrifying warnings given to young people historically, it does not cause blindness, weakness, mental retardation, or any other physical problem. If it did, the entire male population and about half of females would be blind, weak, simpleminded, and sick. Between 95 and 98 percent of all boys engage in this practice � and the rest have been known to lie. It is as close to being a universal behavior as is likely to occur. A lesser but still significant percentage of girls also engage in what was once called "self-gratification."

As for the emotional consequences of masturbation, only four circumstances should give us cause for concern. The first is when it is associated with oppressive guilt from which the individual can't escape. That guilt has the potential to do considerable psychological and spiritual damage. Boys and girls who labor under divine condemnation can gradually become convinced that even God couldn't love them. They promise a thousand times with great sincerity never again to commit this despicable act. Then a week or two passes, or perhaps several months. Eventually, the hormonal pressure accumulates until nearly every waking moment reverberates with sexual desire. Finally, in a moment (and I do mean a moment) of weakness, it happens again. What then, dear friend? Tell me what a young person says to God after he or she has just broken the one thousand first solemn promise to Him? I am convinced that some teenagers have thrown over their faith because of their inability to please God at this point of masturbation.

The second circumstance in which masturbation might have harmful implications is when it becomes extremely obsessive. That is more likely to occur when it has been understood by the individual to be "forbidden fruit." I believe the best way to prevent that kind of obsessive response is for adults not to emphasize or condemn it. Regardless of what you do, you will not stop the practice of masturbation in your teenagers. That is a certainty. You'll just drive it underground � or under covers. Nothing works as a "cure." Cold showers, lots of exercise, many activities, and awesome threats are ineffective. Attempting to suppress this act is one campaign that is destined to fail--so why wage it?

The third situation around which we should be concerned is when the young person becomes addicted to pornographic material. The kind of obscenity available to teenagers today has the capacity to grab and hold a boy for the rest of his life. Parents will want to intervene if there is evidence that their son or daughter is heading down that well-worn path.

The fourth concern about masturbation refers not to adolescents but to us as adults. This habit has the capacity to follow us into marriage and become a substitution for healthy sexual relations between a husband and wife. This, I believe, is what the apostle Paul meant when he instructed us not to "deprive" one another as marital partners: "Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control" (1 Corinthians 7:5).

As for the spiritual implications of masturbation, I will have to defer to the theologians for a more definitive response. It is interesting to me, however, that Scripture does not address this subject except for a single reference in the Old Testament to a man named Onan. He interrupted sexual intercourse with his sister-in-law and allowed his semen to fall on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother, which was his "duty" (Genesis 38:8). Though that verse is often cited as evidence of God's disapproval of masturbation, the context doesn't seem to fit.

So, what should parents say to their kids about this subject? My advice is to say nothing after puberty has occurred. You will only cause embarrassment and discomfort. For those who are younger, it would be wise to include the subject of masturbation in the "Preparing for Adolescence" conversation I have recommended on other occasions. I would suggest that parents talk to their twelve- or thirteen-year-old boys, especially, in the same general way my mother and father discussed this subject with me. We were riding in the car, and my dad said, "Jim, when I was a boy, I worried so much about masturbation. It really became a scary thing for me because I thought God was condemning me for what I couldn't help. So I'm telling you now that I hope you don't feel the need to engage in this act when you reach the teen years, but if you do, you shouldn't be too concerned about it. I don't believe it has much to do with your relationship with God."

What a kind thing my father did for me that night in the car. He was a very conservative minister who never compromised his standards of morality to the day of his death. He stood like a rock for biblical principles and commandments. Yet he cared enough about me to lift from my shoulders the burden of guilt that nearly destroyed some of my friends in the church. This kind of "reasonable" faith taught to me by my parents is one of the primary reasons I never felt it necessary to rebel against parental authority or defy God. Well, those are my views, for what they are worth. I know my recommendations will be inflammatory to some people. If you are one of them, please forgive me. I can only offer the best advice of which I'm capable. I pray that in this instance, I am right.

He makes some very good points here regarding young teenagers that we cannot ignore. Do we really expect boys especially this young to go out and get married or control these hormones surging through their bodies without sending them on a life long guilt trip?

God bless

Brother Mark
Apr 25th 2008, 11:30 PM
You guys are underestimating the power of God to deliver! He can deliver us from those desires where we do not need a release. Do the desires completely go away? No. But neither do they drive us. One can be delivered from masturbation. You think you are not hooked, then try and go a year without it. ;)

moonglow
Apr 26th 2008, 01:32 AM
You guys are underestimating the power of God to deliver! He can deliver us from those desires where we do not need a release. Do the desires completely go away? No. But neither do they drive us. One can be delivered from masturbation. You think you are not hooked, then try and go a year without it. ;)

I seriously doubt anyone could go a year without engaging in whatever fleshy desires they have..be it watching TV, or eating their favorite foods,etc...I wouldn't consider it an addiction, being hooked, if they couldn't (unless it was really extreme stuff of course). But you are correct in God being able to do anything! Amen on that.

God bless

divaD
Apr 26th 2008, 02:57 AM
Moonglow:

Thanks for your "dissenting opinion," as it would be called if we were the United States Supreme Court. I was single for a long time (almost 35 years!) before I was married, and am a male, so I feel at least somewhat qualified to speak on this topic. My experience has been that, before I was married, I masturbated, on average, five or six times a week. Now that I am married, however, it has dropped down to maybe once or twice a week (more if it's "that time of the month"). Now, the two big questions are, why did my frequency go down so dramatically, and why didn't it stop altogether? After all, now that I'm getting "the real thing," so to speak, why do I still feel it is necessary to resort to fantasy from time to time? IMHO, it is possible that, for men at least (I don't claim to speak for women because I'm not one!), masturbation is one of those things that God graciously built in, after the Fall, to help us deal with stress and satisfy our God-given sexual urges when sex with our spouses is just not possible, or, for those who are not married, to release built-up pressures. After all, not everyone is called to be married, and since the sex drive is given to all human beings, there must be a way for those called to singleness, for whatever reason, to satisfy those God-given desires. That's just my two cents, though. I could be totally off-base. It's been known to happen. Any further thoughts/ideas/insights/comments/questions, etc., would be greatly appreciated!

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin




Benjamin, does this mean that you are going to hell? You'd be suprised at how many proclaimed Christians consider this an ulimate sin. Now before you misundestand my post, what I asked you, also applies to me.

I'm male and 50 yrs old. I'm married, but my wife and I no longer engage in sexual intercourse. Mainly because we have a failed marriage resulting from stress and things of that nature. IOW, we just don't get along with each other that well any more. We've been married 26 yrs.

Being a male, I still have sexual urges. Unless I was going to cheat or something, my only alternative is masturbation. I've clearly heard many claim that one can't masturbate without fantasizing. Well I'm here to tell you, you sure can. I don't have to fantasize about anything or anyone in order to masturbate. It's more like I have to masturbate, or while I'm at work I might feel aroused by some of the females there, which would be embarrassing for me. But if i relieve this sexual tension before I go to work, I usually don't find myself being aroused. In my case, I fail to see how masturbation is a sin or is wrong. Also, I don't masturbate every single day, maybe 2 or 3 times a week, depending on the sexual tension I feel inside. All I can say is, I'm a man, and even tho I'm 50, I pretty much have the sex drive of a younger man. So what am I to do?

Also, your post wasn't so embarrassing afterall, after hearing my embarrassing post, right?

thethirdtuttle
Apr 26th 2008, 03:35 AM
No, I don't believe that I will be condemned to hell by God because I occasionally masturbate. I know that if it is a sin, which I'm not entirely convinced it is, God will forgive me for it each and every time I sincerely ask for forgiveness. And, to respond to moonglow's comment, I'm sorry if any of my comments were too brutally honest for some, but I felt as though my personal experience could help shed some light on the topic in question. Hope that helps.

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin

Brother Mark
Apr 26th 2008, 05:19 AM
No, I don't believe that I will be condemned to hell by God because I occasionally masturbate. I know that if it is a sin, which I'm not entirely convinced it is, God will forgive me for it each and every time I sincerely ask for forgiveness. And, to respond to moonglow's comment, I'm sorry if any of my comments were too brutally honest for some, but I felt as though my personal experience could help shed some light on the topic in question. Hope that helps.

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin


But isn't sexual fantasy a sin? :hmm:

ravi4u2
Apr 26th 2008, 07:39 AM
Self-control, which is a fruit of the Spirit is largely not present in this age of self-indulgence. We scar our conscience so much by our willful act of self-indulgence that there is no remorse felt, even when the Spirit convicts. Either that or we have all been hoodwinked by the theology of cheap grace.

divaD
Apr 26th 2008, 01:06 PM
But isn't sexual fantasy a sin? :hmm:



Personally speaking, I would say that sexual fantasies are a sin, even if one never fullfills those fantasies, nor masturbates while fantasizing. Why do I think that? Because when one chooses to have sexual fantasies, they choose to entertain thoughts that shouldn't be entertained.

Also I would like to apololize if I offended anyone with my post in this thread. But if we can't be honest and upfront about things, then how are we to overcome things that may or may not have a stronghold over us, depending on who's perspective one is seeing it from?

Gentile
Apr 26th 2008, 01:59 PM
Moonglow:

Thanks for your "dissenting opinion," as it would be called if we were the United States Supreme Court. I was single for a long time (almost 35 years!) before I was married, and am a male, so I feel at least somewhat qualified to speak on this topic. My experience has been that, before I was married, I masturbated, on average, five or six times a week. Now that I am married, however, it has dropped down to maybe once or twice a week (more if it's "that time of the month"). Now, the two big questions are, why did my frequency go down so dramatically, and why didn't it stop altogether? After all, now that I'm getting "the real thing," so to speak, why do I still feel it is necessary to resort to fantasy from time to time? IMHO, it is possible that, for men at least (I don't claim to speak for women because I'm not one!), masturbation is one of those things that God graciously built in, after the Fall, to help us deal with stress and satisfy our God-given sexual urges when sex with our spouses is just not possible, or, for those who are not married, to release built-up pressures. After all, not everyone is called to be married, and since the sex drive is given to all human beings, there must be a way for those called to singleness, for whatever reason, to satisfy those God-given desires. That's just my two cents, though. I could be totally off-base. It's been known to happen. Any further thoughts/ideas/insights/comments/questions, etc., would be greatly appreciated!

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin


Thank goodness I am not the only one on this board who feels the same!! Awesome post and I agree wth it all.

moonglow
Apr 26th 2008, 02:15 PM
No, I don't believe that I will be condemned to hell by God because I occasionally masturbate. I know that if it is a sin, which I'm not entirely convinced it is, God will forgive me for it each and every time I sincerely ask for forgiveness. And, to respond to moonglow's comment, I'm sorry if any of my comments were too brutally honest for some, but I felt as though my personal experience could help shed some light on the topic in question. Hope that helps.

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin

thethirdtuttle...you are fine...you are being honest...a couple of years ago I would have probably freaked out over your post, and it did take me back a bit! Normally this is a topic I really don't like reading, or thinking about or wanting to have a thing to do with! But I have to start facing facts here...I have a son that has started puberty and I am a single parent, (mom here) and well this is an issue I need to resolve in my own mind in order to know how to guide and direct him. I don't even like the word, masturbation! Right now my son is very early in the puberty stage...he is just 12 but for the last year or so he started breaking out in pimples off and on and the other day he proudly showed me the hair growing under his arms...:rolleyes: I tried sounding positive about the whole thing...but I guess I am more worried then I am positive about all of this. (fears of porn, teen pregnancies, all of that stuff goes through a parents mind I guess)

The word, masturbation, came up the other day. A girl at recess was being mean to him and said he masturbated behind the school building. Well he didn't know what the word meant so asked me...:blush::blush: I would rather he hear it from me then from another child...but I would rather explain sexual relation between a husband and wife (which I have!) then I would try to explain that! :blush: So while I am trying very hard to remain calm and not reactive and practical on this thread...its very hard for me...and it doesn't help that I really am not convinced through any scripture that this is a sin. I need to resolve this issue as a parent for his sake though. I understand lustful thoughts about other people are a sin whether the person acts on those feelings or not.

I agree if the person is obsessed with it, its a constant thing on their mind, that its a sin. But what I hear you saying and what divaD is saying, I do not see as a sin. So far as I know I have never heard of someone delivered from this (except in the case of the extreme, usually involving porn, etc). If the Lord has totally and completely taken these feelings from someone then that would indicate, at least to me, its a sin and their is a need for deliverance from it. What doesn't make sense to me is this...why are we created with these feeling then told its a sin? Yes Brother Mark says it means we need to get married...but this all starts at age 13 and maybe younger! And as I pointed out not everyone can get married....some have spouses that something happened too and they cannot be together...whether illness or handicap...there are a billion different situations even in a marriage where a couple cannot be together...yet those feelings are still there. So then what?

I agree with divaD..it can be done without having lustful thoughts...and to me that is where I see the bible saying those thoughts are sinful...but not the the act. I do not see what divaD is doing as sinnful at all. He keeps his thoughts from being lustful. This was the point I was trying to make before...everyone says its a sin BECAUSE of the lustful thoughts that usually go with it...but I don't think those thoughts have to happen at all...the two can be separated.

I have prayed to God about this and I do not find Him answering so far anyway that this is a sin, provided its doesn't become an obsessive type of thing. (too much of anything can become sinful). I have too many unresolved questions on this. I also don't want to get into trouble ...after reading PeterProjects sticky post on this topic yesterday, it sounds like the mods and admin of the board say its a sin and discussion is only allowed to go so far before the people questioning it get into trouble. Which I don't want to happen to me so I will drop it and keep searching for my answers on my own through the bible and prayer so I can figure out how to guide my son on this...I have no clue how to handle this regarding him though..I really don't. :(

God bless

ProjectPeter
Apr 26th 2008, 02:33 PM
In Leviticus a man is considered unclean and has to stay outside the camp even if he had an involuntary nocturnal emmision.
It was unclean in the same way that a woman in her cycle was unclean. It wasn't a sin... they were simply unclean for that day. There lies the difference and it is a big difference.

ProjectPeter
Apr 26th 2008, 02:45 PM
There is a song that I hear sung by one of the moderator's here and it is titled "Everyone Has Their Excuses." Look... it is simply this. Let's say that it is possible for a person to do this without sexual fantasy (young kids just starting out perhaps) but that won't last for long. Pretty soon the need will increase (once the fruit is tasted and found good... your flesh will crave it all the more) and yet the ability wanes when it becomes the same old thing. It is like the person that just starts out having a few tokes off a joint (not a roast daughter...;) speaking marijuana here with US slang) and it gets them buzzed and all is well in their little stoned world. After a while though... it takes the whole joint to achieve that same buzz. After a while... you can wolf down a couple. After a while... need a little boost so something gets added... etc. Same with drinking... anything that stimulates the flesh in some way. A couple of beers and you're pretty wasted. But after a while... that doesn't even do a thing for you so you increase the amount. After more time... just doesn't do much for you so get some liquor and change it up.

Same with porn... start out with thinking... get a book... watch a video... start getting kinky with the wife because the normal sex you guys have just doesn't make your diddle twiddle any longer. So point being... those that think they are doing this without their mind adding something to their self-sex.... you're just making excuses with your mouth because your common sense knows better.

If you are married... like NHL Fever said... get with your wife or husband because it's a whole lot better making love to them than having sex with your hand. If you think you can do that on a regular basis and always think of your wife while doing it... you are doing nothing but fooling yourself because ultimately all you are doing is looking for self-gratification and that is going to lead you into temptation and if you continue that temptation will lead you to sin and sin... leads to death.

NHL Fever
Apr 26th 2008, 04:14 PM
By the way... why the assumption that this is only a problem men have? Women have sexual needs too, and it's not only men who have to ask their spouses for sex. I think women are more ashamed to admit to admitting to lusts of the flesh than men. (There you go, I might be the first female on this board to have admitted that!) It's humiliating to ask for sex whatever your gender. Well, it can be, potentially... it wasn't for me, because my husband was very understanding. But we shouldn't assume that it's only men who struggle with lust.

Good points, sorry didn't want to make it seem like the issue was only one-sided. Just that I honestly have a hard time imagining a situation where the woman feels that the guy is not willing, most guys would have no problem with being 'accommodating'. 100% of the guys I've heard comment about it say that they have greater appetites than their spouse in that department. Not to say it couldn't be the other way.

I think a lot spouses don't realize the damage that can do to a relationship, to make somebody feel sexually frustrated because they aren't overly interested, or how sex is such an important part of intimacy for many people. Many spouse contribute to the risk of infidelity by using sex as a weapon against their spouse or making them come and ask for it like they are their dealer or something. There are attitudes like "if you want sex, you better do this and this for ME" all over the place, and it can quickly kill a relationship.

Brother Mark
Apr 26th 2008, 04:20 PM
Good points, sorry didn't want to make it seem like the issue was only one-sided. Just that I honestly have a hard time imagining a situation where the woman feels that the guy is not willing, most guys would have no problem with being 'accommodating'. 100% of the guys I've heard comment about it say that they have greater appetites than their spouse in that department. Not to say it couldn't be the other way.

I think a lot spouses don't realize the damage that can do to a relationship, to make somebody feel sexually frustrated because they aren't overly interested, or how sex is such an important part of intimacy for many people. Many spouse contribute to the risk of infidelity by using sex as a weapon against their spouse or making them come and ask for it like they are their dealer or something. There are attitudes like "if you want sex, you better do this and this for ME" all over the place, and it can quickly kill a relationship.

Oh yea. That is a deep well that could go on and on. Sex as a weapon or a tool of manipulation is hitting way below the belt in a marriage and does great damage.

thethirdtuttle
Apr 26th 2008, 06:13 PM
I just wanted to add, that for me at least, I find it very difficult to separate masturbation from sexual fantasy. Like I mentioned in a previous post, I don't claim to speak for women because I'm not one, but I do remember that when I was a member of the Student Discussion Board, this very issue came up. The women who were brave enough to share about their experiences concerning this topic said that they, for the most part, didn't need to use sexual fantasy in order to successfully masturbate. I don't know why this is, but it could be because women are wired neurologically differently than men. That is a proven scientific fact. I can only speak from my own experience, but sexual fantasy and masturbation are inextricably linked, at least in my mind. Maybe it's different for others, but I just don't know. Hope this helps.

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin

seamus414
Apr 26th 2008, 09:00 PM
Oh yea. That is a deep well that could go on and on. Sex as a weapon or a tool of manipulation is hitting way below the belt in a marriage and does great damage.

Indeed, .

seamus414
Apr 26th 2008, 09:21 PM
ProjectPeter:
"There is a song that I hear sung by one of the moderator's here and it is titled "Everyone Has Their Excuses." Look... it is simply this. Let's say that it is possible for a person to do this without sexual fantasy (young kids just starting out perhaps) but that won't last for long. Pretty soon the need will increase (once the fruit is tasted and found good... your flesh will crave it all the more) and yet the ability wanes when it becomes the same old thing. It is like the person that just starts out having a few tokes off a joint (not a roast daughter...;) speaking marijuana here with US slang) and it gets them buzzed and all is well in their little stoned world. After a while though... it takes the whole joint to achieve that same buzz. After a while... you can wolf down a couple. After a while... need a little boost so something gets added... etc. Same with drinking... anything that stimulates the flesh in some way. A couple of beers and you're pretty wasted. But after a while... that doesn't even do a thing for you so you increase the amount. After more time... just doesn't do much for you so get some liquor and change it up. Same with porn... start out with thinking... get a book... watch a video... start getting kinky with the wife because the normal sex you guys have just doesn't make your diddle twiddle any longer. So point being... those that think they are doing this without their mind adding something to their self-sex.... you're just making excuses with your mouth because your common sense knows better. If you are married... like NHL Fever said... get with your wife or husband because it's a whole lot better making love to them than having sex with your hand. If you think you can do that on a regular basis and always think of your wife while doing it... you are doing nothing but fooling yourself because ultimately all you are doing is looking for self-gratification and that is going to lead you into temptation and if you continue that temptation will lead you to sin and sin... leads to death."


I don't think anyone where things that masterbation cannot lead to something something ia certainly wrong. The question on the table is is masterbation a sin at all, not is masterbation, when it takes over your life and leads to other things, a sin. That you compare it with drinking certainly shows where you are on the subject. Drinking is not a sin and millions of people over thousands of years have drank alcohol every day of their life and have never committed a sin due to the drinking. I have also never heard of anyone smoking more than one joint at a time, but that is off topic. If someone can control the drinking, then it is perfectly fine - it is a very personal issue and dependant upon the person.

I think you are painting a really wide brush that is entirely too wide. We need to remember that we ARE flesh and God gave us fleshly things to enjoy and that it is OKAY to enjoy them with the parameters God gave us. YOu say "anything that stimulates the flesh in some way" - as if that were a bad thing. It is NOT. The sin, when it comes to the flesh, is abusing the gift not using it at all. Your post makes you sound like the extremest of monks who live the most ascetic of lifestyles. I am not sure that that is necessary or appropriate for most people.

What is wrong with self-gratification? Taking virtually anything to excess is a problem but you use the term as if it is wrong by definition. It's not as God have us things to gratify ourselves as God wants us to be happy.

I have asked this before and received no answer. Does thinking about your wife reduce or remove the sin of sexual fantasy or lust when one masterbates?

We have to admit that God gave us all sexual urges there is no sin in enjoying them and wanting them. In fact God wants us to enjoy his gifts, including sexual urges. The issue here is masterbation - by definition - an abuse of that gift? If so, why and what is the Biblical basis? If no, is it ever a sin? I think we can agree that lust is a sin so when lust leads to masterbation it is a sin - no question. But what of other forms of masterbation?

The only Christian arguments I have seen out this topic that have any sort of merit are those of St. Thomas Acquinas and hs argmuents from the purpose of creation and natural law. However, as he is a Saint of traditional Christian Churches (i.e.: RCC, EO, Anglican) his writing carries a lesser (or perhaps no) weight so I doubt he is relevant here.

I note that after nearlt 4 complete pages, NOT ONE poster has posted ANYTHING relevant from the Bible.

seamus414
Apr 26th 2008, 09:22 PM
............

How do you know? It's uncleanness.

Based on what?

ProjectPeter
Apr 26th 2008, 09:29 PM
ProjectPeter:
"There is a song that I hear sung by one of the moderator's here and it is titled "Everyone Has Their Excuses." Look... it is simply this. Let's say that it is possible for a person to do this without sexual fantasy (young kids just starting out perhaps) but that won't last for long. Pretty soon the need will increase (once the fruit is tasted and found good... your flesh will crave it all the more) and yet the ability wanes when it becomes the same old thing. It is like the person that just starts out having a few tokes off a joint (not a roast daughter...;) speaking marijuana here with US slang) and it gets them buzzed and all is well in their little stoned world. After a while though... it takes the whole joint to achieve that same buzz. After a while... you can wolf down a couple. After a while... need a little boost so something gets added... etc. Same with drinking... anything that stimulates the flesh in some way. A couple of beers and you're pretty wasted. But after a while... that doesn't even do a thing for you so you increase the amount. After more time... just doesn't do much for you so get some liquor and change it up. Same with porn... start out with thinking... get a book... watch a video... start getting kinky with the wife because the normal sex you guys have just doesn't make your diddle twiddle any longer. So point being... those that think they are doing this without their mind adding something to their self-sex.... you're just making excuses with your mouth because your common sense knows better. If you are married... like NHL Fever said... get with your wife or husband because it's a whole lot better making love to them than having sex with your hand. If you think you can do that on a regular basis and always think of your wife while doing it... you are doing nothing but fooling yourself because ultimately all you are doing is looking for self-gratification and that is going to lead you into temptation and if you continue that temptation will lead you to sin and sin... leads to death."


I don't think anyone where things that masterbation cannot lead to something something ia certainly wrong. The question on the table is is masterbation a sin at all, not is masterbation, when it takes over your life and leads to other things, a sin. That you compare it with drinking certainly shows where you are on the subject. Drinking is not a sin and millions of people over thousands of years have drank alcohol every day of their life and have never committed a sin due to the drinking. I have also never heard of anyone smoking more than one joint at a time, but that is off topic. If someone can control the drinking, then it is perfectly fine - it is a very personal issue and dependant upon the person.

I think you are painting a really wide brush that is entirely too wide. We need to remember that we ARE flesh and God gave us fleshly things to enjoy and that it is OKAY to enjoy them with the parameters God gave us. YOu say "anything that stimulates the flesh in some way" - as if that were a bad thing. It is NOT. The sin, when it comes to the flesh, is abusing the gift not using it at all. Your post makes you sound like the extremest of monks who live the most ascetic of lifestyles. I am not sure that that is necessary or appropriate for most people.

What is wrong with self-gratification? Taking virtually anything to excess is a problem but you use the term as if it is wrong by definition. It's not as God have us things to gratify ourselves as God wants us to be happy.

I have asked this before and received no answer. Does thinking about your wife reduce or remove the sin of sexual fantasy or lust when one masterbates?

We have to admit that God gave us all sexual urges there is no sin in enjoying them and wanting them. In fact God wants us to enjoy his gifts, including sexual urges. The issue here is masterbation - by definition - an abuse of that gift? If so, why and what is the Biblical basis? If no, is it ever a sin? I think we can agree that lust is a sin so when lust leads to masterbation it is a sin - no question. But what of other forms of masterbation?

The only Christian arguments I have seen out this topic that have any sort of merit are those of St. Thomas Acquinas and hs argmuents from the purpose of creation and natural law. However, as he is a Saint of traditional Christian Churches (i.e.: RCC, EO, Anglican) his writing carries a lesser (or perhaps no) weight so I doubt he is relevant here.

I note that after nearlt 4 complete pages, NOT ONE poster has posted ANYTHING relevant from the Bible.
Again... we ain't talking "other" forms of masturbation. What is being spoken of here isn't about going in a cup so as to make your wife pregnant. We're talking about an act of a sexual nature. God didn't make it for you to play with it. It has a specific purpose and while it can certainly bring us pleasure... it isn't there for you to pleasure yourself. If you honestly cannot understand the point that a man is not going to fondle himself without it very quickly leading to fantasy and lust and a host of whatnot then you are either lying to yourself or you just aren't the brightest bulb in the hall. Notice that Paul told Timothy to flee from youthful lust... He didn't tell Timothy to go off into a private place and take care of business and you'll be okay.

seamus414
Apr 27th 2008, 03:13 AM
Listen, I, perhaps as much as the other posters around here, do not want to sin. However, I need to know what is a sin and what is not and how one arrives at the decision to label something or some act a sin. There has still been no Scriptures cited that support your assertions.

YOu say "God didn't make it for you to play with it" and "isn't there for you to pleasure yourself." Ok, that is your assertion - what Scriptural basis do you have for these assertions. I would appreciate it if your next post included these Scripture citations, otherwise the only authority for these assertions is your own opinion and not the Bible's.

"If you honestly cannot understand the point that a man is not going to fondle himself without it very quickly leading to fantasy and lust and a host of whatnot then you are either lying to yourself or you just aren't the brightest bulb in the hall."

Right now the question is masterbation as an act. We can deal with the fantasy/lust later. Let's try to keep the issues straight. Fantasy/lust is explicitly sinful and there is no debate about that; nor is there a debate that masterbation can lead to something sinful. The issue now, though, is masterbation as an act - let's try to stay on topic from now on.

"Notice that Paul told Timothy to flee from youthful lust... He didn't tell Timothy to go off into a private place and take care of business and you'll be okay."

On what Biblical basis do you make the assumption that this passage deals with masterbation?

Slug1
Apr 27th 2008, 03:21 AM
Listen, I, perhaps as much as the other posters around here, do not want to sin. However, I need to know what is a sin and what is not and how one arrives at the decision to label something or some act a sin. There has still been no Scriptures cited that support your assertions. I quoted the scripture earlier and you never addressed it.

Key in on the underlined parts. Self-Control... all these posts stating that they makelove to their wife 2-3 times a week and then love themselves additional times a week are not in any way practicing self-control... instead it's self-pleasure, fleshy passions and desires... and this isn't of the Spirit. Doesn't even matter if fantasy is involved or not, its the act itself. Doing this act isn't "stress relief" although our enemy sure makes us believe that with using "I'm relieving some stress" as an excuse it's "OK". This was my main excuse when I was chained by this sin. If the stress relief is needed of "that" type, go to the wife 4-5 times a week instead and keep it holy in the bed.

edit: This scripture is cut from what I posted of Galatians 5:16-26 in post #3.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 27th 2008, 07:16 AM
I just wanted to add, that for me at least, I find it very difficult to separate masturbation from sexual fantasy. Like I mentioned in a previous post, I don't claim to speak for women because I'm not one, but I do remember that when I was a member of the Student Discussion Board, this very issue came up. The women who were brave enough to share about their experiences concerning this topic said that they, for the most part, didn't need to use sexual fantasy in order to successfully masturbate. I don't know why this is, but it could be because women are wired neurologically differently than men. That is a proven scientific fact. I can only speak from my own experience, but sexual fantasy and masturbation are inextricably linked, at least in my mind. Maybe it's different for others, but I just don't know. Hope this helps.

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin

Benjamin;

As a woman, I can tell you right now that the women you are quoting are absolutely right. It is possible...and, for the most part, pretty much guaranteed...that a woman can experience that biological release without having to fantasize.
I can tell you right now that I haven't been with a man in over 18 months, and I really have no desire to. Sex is not something that consumes my thoughts, and truthfully, I rarely even think about it. I am not saying that an attractive guy doesn't catch my eye every now and then...what I am saying is that, aside from admiration, my thoughts don't go much further.

That being said, there are still times when I still desire that release that masturbation brings. It isn't something that I necessarily need, but there are times when I do crave it, and I can tell you, it really does take the edge off.
For myself and other women, this release is purely physical, and does not have to involve sexual fantasy at all. On the other hand, it appears that for men, this release is directly connected to the sex drive. Perhaps this is because it involves the release of bodily fluids, while for women, it does not necessarily involve that (although it can happen).

I don't know....but I also know that women have a lot more nerve activity than men, so perhaps it is just easier to become stimulated. Perhaps men just need more to bring them to that point of release than women do, so they are pretty much left to fantasize. I don't know...but I just wanted to say that, as a woman, I can vouch for what those other women told you....and I'm sure other women on this board can, as well.

ProDeo
Apr 27th 2008, 08:46 AM
It was unclean in the same way that a woman in her cycle was unclean. It wasn't a sin... they were simply unclean for that day. There lies the difference and it is a big difference.
The same chapter (Lev 15) declares sex in a marriage as unclean.

This should be kept in mind when linking masturbation to uncleanness -> sin.

Regards,

Ed

ProDeo
Apr 27th 2008, 09:31 AM
But isn't sexual fantasy a sin? :hmm:

Allow me to make a tricky stance I really don't believe myself but I would like to have the issue clear, that is, if that is possible ;)

Matthew 5:27 "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old, ‘Thou shalt not commit adultery.’

Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

One could argue that (male) masturbation has nothing to do with the wish to commit adultery with a particular woman. Masturbation is about releasing body pressure. After the act the fantasized woman is a non-issue. There never was the desire, nor the intend to have the woman for real, just to release seed and have stress relief.

Verse 27 clearly indicates the topic is adultery, not masturbation.

Regards,

Ed

ProjectPeter
Apr 27th 2008, 12:13 PM
Listen, I, perhaps as much as the other posters around here, do not want to sin. However, I need to know what is a sin and what is not and how one arrives at the decision to label something or some act a sin. There has still been no Scriptures cited that support your assertions.

YOu say "God didn't make it for you to play with it" and "isn't there for you to pleasure yourself." Ok, that is your assertion - what Scriptural basis do you have for these assertions. I would appreciate it if your next post included these Scripture citations, otherwise the only authority for these assertions is your own opinion and not the Bible's.

"If you honestly cannot understand the point that a man is not going to fondle himself without it very quickly leading to fantasy and lust and a host of whatnot then you are either lying to yourself or you just aren't the brightest bulb in the hall."

Right now the question is masterbation as an act. We can deal with the fantasy/lust later. Let's try to keep the issues straight. Fantasy/lust is explicitly sinful and there is no debate about that; nor is there a debate that masterbation can lead to something sinful. The issue now, though, is masterbation as an act - let's try to stay on topic from now on.

"Notice that Paul told Timothy to flee from youthful lust... He didn't tell Timothy to go off into a private place and take care of business and you'll be okay."

On what Biblical basis do you make the assumption that this passage deals with masterbation?Notice in 1 Corinthians 7 when Paul tells the men who are having that burning desire... to get married. He doesn't tell them to go in a room and release those tensions yourself if you can't handle it. You are trying to separate lustful thoughts from the act itself and if you haven't picked up on it yet... my point is that it ain't going to happen. They are like peas in a pod. Lustful thoughts will come. Might not happen the first time or even the second... but sooner or later just stimulating oneself isn't going to work any longer. They are going to have to add thought to it and that thought is what is going to get them into trouble.

If you want a Scripture that uses the word or even an idiom for masturbating... it ain't in there as you, I, and most folks already know. That word need not be included to be covered. Sexual immorality is what it is and covers a wide variety of things. There is no separation between that and fantasy because it will bring about the thoughts.

ProjectPeter
Apr 27th 2008, 12:15 PM
The same chapter (Lev 15) declares sex in a marriage as unclean.

This should be kept in mind when linking masturbation to uncleanness -> sin.

Regards,

EdIn case you missed the point... the discharge itself wasn't a sin. That was my point... if it was a sin then a woman sins every time they are on their cycle.

ProjectPeter
Apr 27th 2008, 12:17 PM
Benjamin;

As a woman, I can tell you right now that the women you are quoting are absolutely right. It is possible...and, for the most part, pretty much guaranteed...that a woman can experience that biological release without having to fantasize.
I can tell you right now that I haven't been with a man in over 18 months, and I really have no desire to. Sex is not something that consumes my thoughts, and truthfully, I rarely even think about it. I am not saying that an attractive guy doesn't catch my eye every now and then...what I am saying is that, aside from admiration, my thoughts don't go much further.

That being said, there are still times when I still desire that release that masturbation brings. It isn't something that I necessarily need, but there are times when I do crave it, and I can tell you, it really does take the edge off.
For myself and other women, this release is purely physical, and does not have to involve sexual fantasy at all. On the other hand, it appears that for men, this release is directly connected to the sex drive. Perhaps this is because it involves the release of bodily fluids, while for women, it does not necessarily involve that (although it can happen).

I don't know....but I also know that women have a lot more nerve activity than men, so perhaps it is just easier to become stimulated. Perhaps men just need more to bring them to that point of release than women do, so they are pretty much left to fantasize. I don't know...but I just wanted to say that, as a woman, I can vouch for what those other women told you....and I'm sure other women on this board can, as well.If you don't "need it" then why would you do it?

ProjectPeter
Apr 27th 2008, 12:18 PM
Allow me to make a tricky stance I really don't believe myself but I would like to have the issue clear, that is, if that is possible ;)

Matthew 5:27 "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old, ‘Thou shalt not commit adultery.’

Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

One could argue that (male) masturbation has nothing to do with the wish to commit adultery with a particular woman. Masturbation is about releasing body pressure. After the act the fantasized woman is a non-issue. There never was the desire, nor the intend to have the woman for real, just to release seed and have stress relief.

Verse 27 clearly indicates the topic is adultery, not masturbation.

Regards,

Ed
And to take this stand would be totally missing the point that Christ was making. Totally missing it.

ProjectPeter
Apr 27th 2008, 12:54 PM
Okay guys... this is getting graphic enough I am moving it to contro. I think everyone has access to this section that is involved in the thread... so should be easy enough.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 27th 2008, 07:52 PM
If you don't "need it" then why would you do it?


I don't...anymore.
It is something that the Lord has convicted me about, but I also believe it has something to do with my past activity...not because it's a sin for everyone. I was merely responding to Benjamin's comments.

I also will not judge any fellow Christian who does this...that is not my place, since the Bible never mentions it specifically as sin. For me, though, I know the voice of the Lord, and for some reason, He doesn't want me to...and that's reason enough for me.

ProjectPeter
Apr 27th 2008, 08:29 PM
I don't...anymore.
It is something that the Lord has convicted me about, but I also believe it has something to do with my past activity...not because it's a sin for everyone. I was merely responding to Benjamin's comments.

I also will not judge any fellow Christian who does this...that is not my place, since the Bible never mentions it specifically as sin. For me, though, I know the voice of the Lord, and for some reason, He doesn't want me to...and that's reason enough for me.
Is sexual immorality a sin? How does putting something inside of you that is the same as a man... or rubbing yourself the way another man would... not a sin? If you aren't married and it ain't your husband doing the rubbing or insertion... please tell me how that is pure, holy and righteous? See... here is the thing. Why in the world do you think you were convicted of it yourself if you think it is something okay to do? That makes no sense if you stop and think about it. You were convicted of it because it was wrong. If it is wrong for you by conviction of the Spirit... it's wrong period.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 27th 2008, 08:58 PM
Is sexual immorality a sin? How does putting something inside of you that is the same as a man... or rubbing yourself the way another man would... not a sin? If you aren't married and it ain't your husband doing the rubbing or insertion... please tell me how that is pure, holy and righteous? See... here is the thing. Why in the world do you think you were convicted of it yourself if you think it is something okay to do? That makes no sense if you stop and think about it. You were convicted of it because it was wrong. If it is wrong for you by conviction of the Spirit... it's wrong period.

Hi, Peter;

The Bible does not specificy it as sin, so I have no right to judge anyone regarding it.

I explained how it is possible for a female to do this without fantasy coming into the picture. IMO, if one has to rely on sexual fantasy, then it is a sin. We are to think on things that are pure, and that edify the Lord. If one has to think on things that are impure for masturbation to be effective, then of course, it is sin.

Jesus also said that if one thinks on a woman to lust after her, than it is adultery. I do not believe He was just talking about married people here...I believe that His point was that if you consciously lust after someone who is not your spouse, then it is sin, whether or not you are married.
Since masturbation usually involves lust, then it would be sin....but for those of us (predominately females) who do not have to think on impure things in order to gain release, then I don't see how it could be considered sin.

I'm not going to go into my past here, but believe me, it was far from pristine, and I believe that it is for this reason that the Lord wants me to stay away from it. Yes, I have the ability to effectively angage in this without having to think a certain way, but even so, I know what the Holy Spirit requires of me at this stage in my life, and He wants me to remove myself from all things of a sexual nature, including this....even if I don't necessarily have to dwell on impure things.

On the other hand, I am not going to judge someone who does this. This is between them and God. I have absolutely no right to!!!!!

We are commanded to refrain from lustful thoughts, and to keep our minds pure. If one must engage in impure thoughts in order to release, then I do believe it is sin. If the person doesn't have to, then that's between them and God.

It's the same with alcohol. It's something that is a sin for some, but not for everyone. Basically, if the Holy Spirit convicts you, then you know it is sin, and the Bible says for him who knows to do good, and doesn't do it, for him, it is sin.

It does not say that for everyone else, it is sin, too. Just for that person!!!

ProjectPeter
Apr 27th 2008, 09:05 PM
Why would even a woman need to rub or insert something into them and then think they are devoid of "lustful" thought? If you feel that need then what else is driving you?

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 27th 2008, 09:06 PM
Allow me to make a tricky stance I really don't believe myself but I would like to have the issue clear, that is, if that is possible ;)

Matthew 5:27 "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old, ‘Thou shalt not commit adultery.’

Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

One could argue that (male) masturbation has nothing to do with the wish to commit adultery with a particular woman. Masturbation is about releasing body pressure. After the act the fantasized woman is a non-issue. There never was the desire, nor the intend to have the woman for real, just to release seed and have stress relief.

Verse 27 clearly indicates the topic is adultery, not masturbation.

Regards,

Ed

Here Jesus is saying that to look on a woman to lust after her is the sin. It does not matter what the motive is.
Whether the motive is to be with her, or simply to stimulate your biological mechanisms in order to release...it doesn't matter. If you lust after her, then it is sin!!

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 27th 2008, 09:11 PM
Why would even a woman need to rub or insert something into them and then think they are devoid of "lustful" thought? If you feel that need then what else is driving you?


Please, Peter, I don't want to argue with you on this. Women are wired differently than men. For some reason, women can release without having to lust or fantasize.

What drives me to do it?! Stress, mainly. Even so, I know what the Holy Spirit requires of me. I know His voice, and I know that He has convicted me about this.

cnw
Apr 27th 2008, 09:14 PM
the Bible says the husband was made for the wife and vice versa. NOT to use yourself, but for the other. Nowhere does it say "know thyself" We are made for the other. If a couple is only intamate together and doesn't please themself then they are leaving their body for their mate and the experience (after you get educated on how to pleasure your mate) is more amazing anyway. Many men say fantasizing about their wives is ok, but fantasy is fantasy and we are supposed to live in reality. If you need to fantasize then there is still a lust issue and that is a problem of sexual addiction.
this whole site is good reading-http://ati.iblp.org/ati/supportlink/kb/questions/29

seamus414
Apr 28th 2008, 12:07 AM
I quoted the scripture earlier and you never addressed it.Key in on the underlined parts. Self-Control... all these posts stating that they makelove to their wife 2-3 times a week and then love themselves additional times a week are not in any way practicing self-control... instead it's self-pleasure, fleshy passions and desires... and this isn't of the Spirit. Doesn't even matter if fantasy is involved or not, its the act itself. Doing this act isn't "stress relief" although our enemy sure makes us believe that with using "I'm relieving some stress" as an excuse it's "OK". This was my main excuse when I was chained by this sin. If the stress relief is needed of "that" type, go to the wife 4-5 times a week instead and keep it holy in the bed.

Okay I reviewed your citation. Here is the problem:

Who determines what is or what is not self-control? Who determines what sexual behaviours are or are not derived from a lack of self-control?

You say "all these posts stating that they makelove to their wife 2-3 times a week and then love themselves additional times a week are not in any way practicing self-control" - how have you derived at the standard that 2-3 times with your wife plus self-stimulation other times a week is not self-control? It seems that you are chosing this as an arbitrary standard dervied from your personal feelings and not Scripture.

Also, why do you suggest that, by definition, self-pleasure is something evil? What is your Scriptural basis for that? God gave us sexual desires and it is okay to derive pleasure from them! Indeed, if I had sex with my wife 7 days week instead of self-stimulation how is that not self-pleasure too?

It seems like your standards are not biblicaly based but, instead, based upon your own feelings on the issue and then you go back and find an illdefined passages that include vague words like "self-control" to shore up your feelings. I should think that biblical interpretation should be the other way: derive our opinions from the Bible and not vice versa.

seamus414
Apr 28th 2008, 12:13 AM
Notice in 1 Corinthians 7 when Paul tells the men who are having that burning desire... to get married. He doesn't tell them to go in a room and release those tensions yourself if you can't handle it. You are trying to separate lustful thoughts from the act itself and if you haven't picked up on it yet... my point is that it ain't going to happen. They are like peas in a pod. Lustful thoughts will come. Might not happen the first time or even the second... but sooner or later just stimulating oneself isn't going to work any longer. They are going to have to add thought to it and that thought is what is going to get them into trouble.

If you want a Scripture that uses the word or even an idiom for masturbating... it ain't in there as you, I, and most folks already know. That word need not be included to be covered. Sexual immorality is what it is and covers a wide variety of things. There is no separation between that and fantasy because it will bring about the thoughts.


Your application of this passage is misplaced. Paul exorts against fornication not masterbation.

The fact tha "it ain't in there" suggests that our opnions on the matter ought not be so definitive as many on this board have tried to make them.

It appears that the Bible offers very general guidelines and then allows our individual conscience to fill in the gaps with each of us at different places relative to these issues. That is an okay thing. This seems to be the only solution unless one gives St. Thomas Acquinas any creedance, which I know people do not around here.

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 12:13 AM
Please, Peter, I don't want to argue with you on this. Women are wired differently than men. For some reason, women can release without having to lust or fantasize.

What drives me to do it?! Stress, mainly. Even so, I know what the Holy Spirit requires of me. I know His voice, and I know that He has convicted me about this.

But the only place we know of in scripture where God says sex is undefiled is the marriage bed. All other occurences of sex, God says it is defiling. What a couple does in their marriage bed is fine (barring sodomy) but what one does alone, is not OK. That falls under sexual immorality even if no fantasy is included. Why? Because it IS sexual in nature. And the only outlet God ever gave for sexual release is the marriage bed. So the issue goes beyond fantasy. Fantasy is covered in the lust verses you quoted. But sexual release is meant for a husband and wife. Anything else falls under sexual immorality.

seamus414
Apr 28th 2008, 12:20 AM
But the only place we know of in scripture where God says sex is undefiled is the marriage bed. All other occurences of sex, God says it is defiling. What a couple does in their marriage bed is fine (barring sodomy) but what one does alone, is not OK. That falls under sexual immorality even if no fantasy is included. Why? Because it IS sexual in nature. And the only outlet God ever gave for sexual release is the marriage bed.

What Biblical basis do you have for barring sodomy? I asked you that in a previous post and you offered no answer.

So your rubric here is that "if it is not permitted, it is prohibited"? What is your Biblical basis for this rubric? In other words, you essentially are assterting "God specifically said marital sex is not a sin, so it is not a sin" and "God makes no mention of masterbation at all so that must make it a sin." That's absurd. God also makes no mention of oral sex yet there seems to be no connotation that it is sinful when performed by a married couple. Again, I ask, on what grounds do you have to assume that what is not permitted must be prohibited?

Also, your assertions appear to imply that sexuality, by definition, is sinful in nature. That could not be further from the truth.

Also, masterbation is not sex. On what basis do you have to call it sex?

seamus414
Apr 28th 2008, 12:23 AM
... start getting kinky with the wife because the normal sex you guys have just doesn't make your diddle twiddle any longer.

I forgot to ask this earlier - why are you labeling kinky sex a sin now? If it is between a married couple, that should be perfectly acceptable. There is no reason why a married couple cannot add however much kink they want in theri sex life as far as I can see, no?

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 12:28 AM
What Biblical basis do you have for barring sodomy? I asked you that in a previous post and you offered no answer.

So your rubric here is that "if it is not permitted, it is prohibited"? What is your Biblical basis for this rubric? In other words, you essentially are assterting "God specifically said marital sex is not a sin, so it is not a sin" and "God makes no mention of masterbation at all so that must make it a sin." That's absurd. God also makes no mention of oral sex yet there seems to be no connotation that it is sinful when performed by a married couple. Again, I ask, on what grounds do you have to assume that what is not permitted must be prohibited?

Also, your assertions appear to imply that sexuality, by definition, is sinful in nature. That could not be further from the truth.

Also, masterbation is not sex. On what basis do you have to call it sex?

Masturbation is sex. It's sex with one's self. Sex is meant and designed for two people that are married. I think that's pretty self evident.

Paul said it is better to marry than to burn. If one feels inclined to masturbate, get married! Sex is for the marriage bed. Sexual immorality is all forms of sex that are performed outside of the marriage bed.

JenniferBerry
Apr 28th 2008, 01:03 AM
I forgot to ask this earlier - why are you labeling kinky sex a sin now? If it is between a married couple, that should be perfectly acceptable. There is no reason why a married couple cannot add however much kink they want in theri sex life as far as I can see, no?
You need to take that in context he was talking about men who get involved in porn and now all of the sudden the sex life they have known with their wife no longer satisfies them. so now the wife has to dress up like a teen with bobby-socks and pig tails for hubby to get his jollys because normal sex no longer works for him. And it goes on from there. And if you think this is ok then talk to some of the wives who have been through this because it is freaking them out.
And if you can read the Bible and think that holy, righteous, and good....then you have a translation I ain't heard of.

seamus414
Apr 28th 2008, 01:12 AM
Ok, Brother Mark, so masterbation is sex because that is how you define it. That does not, by your utterance, make it so. Again, I ask, on what basis do you have to call it sex? According to dictionary.com sex is "to engage in sexual intercourse" - masterbation is not that. Indeed, if masterbation was sex, people would call it so.

seamus414
Apr 28th 2008, 01:16 AM
You need to take that in context he was talking about men who get involved in porn and now all of the sudden the sex life they have known with their wife no longer satisfies them. so now the wife has to dress up like a teen with bobby-socks and pig tails for hubby to get his jollys because normal sex no longer works for him. And it goes on from there. And if you think this is ok then talk to some of the wives who have been through this because it is freaking them out.
And if you can read the Bible and think that holy, righteous, and good....then you have a translation I ain't heard of.


I would agree that allowing pornography to cause your own sex life to be unsatisfying is the result of sin.

HOwever, if dressing with bobby-socks and pigtains gets your husband going, then who's to say that that is a sin? It's between husband and wife and there is nothing wrong with that. Aside fro gender restrictions (i.e.: homosexuality), the Bible really does not speak to what sorts of things should and should not arouse someone and neither should you, nor should you judge it as there is no basis to judge it by.

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 01:24 AM
Ok, Brother Mark, so masterbation is sex because that is how you define it. That does not, by your utterance, make it so. Again, I ask, on what basis do you have to call it sex? According to dictionary.com sex is "to engage in sexual intercourse" - masterbation is not that. Indeed, if masterbation was sex, people would call it so.

Kind of like what our president was getting at when he said he didn't have sex with that woman. ;) We call them our sex organs for a reason. When one stimulates his sexual organ, he is simulating sex. Masturbation is simulating sexual intercourse. Whether fantasy is involved or not, the purpose of masturbation is sexual release. It simulates sexual intercourse. Only the marriage bed is undefiled.

Slug1
Apr 28th 2008, 01:41 AM
Okay I reviewed your citation. Here is the problem:

Who determines what is or what is not self-control? Who determines what sexual behaviours are or are not derived from a lack of self-control?

You say "all these posts stating that they makelove to their wife 2-3 times a week and then love themselves additional times a week are not in any way practicing self-control" - how have you derived at the standard that 2-3 times with your wife plus self-stimulation other times a week is not self-control? It seems that you are chosing this as an arbitrary standard dervied from your personal feelings and not Scripture.

Also, why do you suggest that, by definition, self-pleasure is something evil? What is your Scriptural basis for that? God gave us sexual desires and it is okay to derive pleasure from them! Indeed, if I had sex with my wife 7 days week instead of self-stimulation how is that not self-pleasure too?

It seems like your standards are not biblicaly based but, instead, based upon your own feelings on the issue and then you go back and find an illdefined passages that include vague words like "self-control" to shore up your feelings. I should think that biblical interpretation should be the other way: derive our opinions from the Bible and not vice versa.All I can say is that when Jesus snapped that chain that had me bound to this sin, I don't need to do any explaining. It was a sin that Jesus took away.

If it wasn't a sin, there'd be no need to take it away from me.

Ill-defined passage? It's clear to anyone who is obedient to the intent of this scripture (Spirit of the Word). Many ignore it cause the specific words don't say.... masturbation is a sin (Letter of the Word). The point being, if the Bible was to specify ALL the sexual immorality that will crop up between the day this scripture was penned and the day Jesus is to return, then many, many more pages would have to be included in the Bible to cover all the specific acts. But the Holy Spirit inspired words of the Bible state sexual immorality so we have to seek God for conviction, not man which includes ourselves. We can easily convince ourselves that wrong is right when we like something and satan likes us to like allot of wrong stuff when we give in to our flesh (no self-control) and listen to satan instead.

Masturbation and any other sexual stimulus or act except sexual intercourse is sexual immorality. If you seek God for an answer and not all of us and LISTEN to the Holy Spirit and not your desires (flesh), then you will find the Truth that will break your chains as well.

JenniferBerry
Apr 28th 2008, 01:47 AM
I would agree that allowing pornography to cause your own sex life to be unsatisfying is the result of sin.

HOwever, if dressing with bobby-socks and pigtains gets your husband going, then who's to say that that is a sin? It's between husband and wife and there is nothing wrong with that. Aside fro gender restrictions (i.e.: homosexuality), the Bible really does not speak to what sorts of things should and should not arouse someone and neither should you, nor should you judge it as there is no basis to judge it by.
Guess what... yes there is. it's called sexual immorality it covers a very broad spectrum of things. :D

2 Peter 2:20
Apr 28th 2008, 01:49 AM
Masturbation is sex. It's sex with one's self. Sex is meant and designed for two people that are married. I think that's pretty self evident.

Paul said it is better to marry than to burn. If one feels inclined to masturbate, get married! Sex is for the marriage bed. Sexual immorality is all forms of sex that are performed outside of the marriage bed.

Yes, very true...

We can draw the same parallel with suicide. Suicide is not mentioned in scripture as far as the actual word "suicide" goes but by definition it is murder of ones self. Masturbation although not mentioned by name is fornication with ones self. However, both are sins nonetheless. To try and "spin it" in any other light is completely wrong.

JenniferBerry
Apr 28th 2008, 02:00 AM
And just to add "now days" masturbation destroys many family's just as it did mine when I was a little girl. Please read my story (http://worldwithnofaces.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=20&Itemid=40).

seamus414
Apr 28th 2008, 02:24 AM
Guess what... yes there is. it's called sexual immorality it covers a very broad spectrum of things. :D

Defined by what or whom? And what gave that what or whom the authority to define it?

JenniferBerry
Apr 28th 2008, 02:27 AM
Defined by what or whom? And what gave that what or whom the authority to define it?

I;m sorry what? Can you speak English maybe.

Athanasius
Apr 28th 2008, 02:37 AM
Defined by what or whom? And what gave that what or whom the authority to define it?

Uhm, God defined it. And He's God, so that gives Him authority.

seamus414
Apr 28th 2008, 02:48 AM
I;m sorry what? Can you speak English maybe.


Actually it is pretty clear.

You said: Guess what... yes there is. it's called sexual immorality it covers a very broad spectrum of things. :D

I said: Defined by what or whom? And what gave that what or whom the authority to define it?

In other words, what or whom defines "sexual immorality"? And who gave that what or whom that authority? We've seen in this thread that the Bible is not specific in its definition.

Also, considering your story, do you think you are the most objective person to define these terms?

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seamus414
Apr 28th 2008, 02:49 AM
Uhm, God defined it. And He's God, so that gives Him authority.

That's the problem. He did not define it terribly specifically.

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 02:54 AM
That's the problem. He did not define it terribly specifically.

It pretty much covers anything outside of marriage. Paul said that it is better to marry, than to burn. If one needs release, let him find it in marriage.

As Peter said above, suicide is not spoken of by name in the book. But murder is. One can look for loopholes if one is inclined to look. But the question that we must all answer is "does this act please God". That's what it really comes down to. Does God approve or not? We answer to him in the end, so if one is inclined to take a chance, that's between him and God.

I think God was clear on the issue though. The marriage bed is undefiled. What happens outside of there is sexual immorality.

2 Peter 2:20
Apr 28th 2008, 03:04 AM
That's the problem. He did not define it terribly specifically.

It sounds like you are trying to get by with something on a technicality. I hope this is not the case, is it?

Would masturbation fall under one or more of these categories?

1) Lust of the eyes
2) Lust of the flesh
3) Pride of life

NHL Fever
Apr 28th 2008, 03:43 AM
Also, considering your story, do you think you are the most objective person to define these terms?

Perhaps it would be wise to evaluate your own objectivity. Anything in this world that a person cannot let go of, or who has immediate resistance to the idea of letting go, is an idol. Like anything, the curse of mb is more likely the addiction than the act itself. If you find yourself immediately defensive at the idea of having to desist, then its an idol for you. If there's no way in your mind that those advocating total resistance from it could be right, and you could never accept that as truth into your life, its an idol. If you are not seeking to ask God earnestly if its a sin for you in prayer, but rather seeking to accumulate arguments for downplaying it, its more than likely an idol for you. I certainly have no interest in saying this that or the other person is wrong or right on this issue, but I do have a desire for Gods best for you and everyone, and therefore would implore you to seek openly and honestly Gods leading into your life on this issue.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 28th 2008, 04:07 AM
You need to take that in context he was talking about men who get involved in porn and now all of the sudden the sex life they have known with their wife no longer satisfies them. so now the wife has to dress up like a teen with bobby-socks and pig tails for hubby to get his jollys because normal sex no longer works for him. And it goes on from there. And if you think this is ok then talk to some of the wives who have been through this because it is freaking them out.
And if you can read the Bible and think that holy, righteous, and good....then you have a translation I ain't heard of.

Jennifer;

Do you really think it's a sin for married couples to engage in this sort of roleplay? If both partners are into it, and do it willingly, would that not make it okay....as long as both partners are comfortable with it?!

I don't think that "kink" in a marriage is all bad. I think anything, as long as it is done within the confines of marriage, is perfectly fine, as long as both partners are perfectly fine with it.

Equipped_4_Love
Apr 28th 2008, 04:08 AM
Ok, Brother Mark, so masterbation is sex because that is how you define it. That does not, by your utterance, make it so. Again, I ask, on what basis do you have to call it sex? According to dictionary.com sex is "to engage in sexual intercourse" - masterbation is not that. Indeed, if masterbation was sex, people would call it so.

I think it has to do with the fantasy factor, and the fact that men generally cannot masturbate without having to fantasize in some way.

Athanasius
Apr 28th 2008, 04:32 AM
That's the problem. He did not define it terribly specifically.

Wait a minute. . .You're going to agree with me that God defined sexual sin, and that He has the authority to define sexual sin, but in your previous post (to which I replied) you question the authority of God?

NHL Fever spoke the truth.

Slug1
Apr 28th 2008, 10:33 AM
Actually it is pretty clear.

You said: Guess what... yes there is. it's called sexual immorality it covers a very broad spectrum of things. :D

I said: Defined by what or whom? And what gave that what or whom the authority to define it?

In other words, what or whom defines "sexual immorality"? And who gave that what or whom that authority? We've seen in this thread that the Bible is not specific in its definition.

Also, considering your story, do you think you are the most objective person to define these terms?

I mentioned in my last post about what sexual immorality (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1619533&postcount=80) means and how if the Bible had to spell it all (defines) out for us (Letter of the Word) then there would be many more pages of scripture to cover all the sexual acts that will crop up from the time those Holy Spirit inspired words were penned till the day that Jesus returns. Instead the Holy Spirit used the two words Sexual Immorality and we are to use the Spirit of the Word and those two words to seek God and understand what the meaning is.

Anything that is not holy sexual intercourse in the bed of a married couple (male and female) is Sexual Immorality, thus is a sin.

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 10:39 AM
I think it has to do with the fantasy factor, and the fact that men generally cannot masturbate without having to fantasize in some way.

Not exactly. Fantasy is sinful because it is lust. I think masturbation is sinful because it is sex with oneself that is not taking place in the marriage bed. In other words, fantasy or no fantasy, it is sex without a spouse or said another way, sexual immorality.

ProDeo
Apr 28th 2008, 12:43 PM
Here Jesus is saying that to look on a woman to lust after her is the sin. It does not matter what the motive is.
Whether the motive is to be with her, or simply to stimulate your biological mechanisms in order to release...it doesn't matter. If you lust after her, then it is sin!!

Matthew 5:27 "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old, ‘Thou shalt not commit adultery.’

Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

I hope you see that verse 27 is connected with verse 28. So the topic is adultery. Jesus is talking to married people, not to singles because they can not commit adultery because of their unmarried state. When people get married the stimulus does not disappear by magic, it's still there, unchanged, the same stimulus that triggered the marriage in the first place.

The difference is that we do not allow us any longer to give the stimulus the freedom it had once before, whenever we do see someone attractive of the opposite gender we cut off the stimulus immediately as ordered in the above 2 verses. If you are going to give the stimulus any freedom (it formerly had) you have committed adultery in your heart because you have allowed your thoughts to enter the area of unfaithfulness towards your partner.

I think Jesus meant this when He spoke this words.

I am a happily married man, I sometimes masturbate and feel bad about it every time (and thus confess it) because as a young Christian someone told me masturbation is a sin. I took it for granted at the time as I took many other things for granted due to my lack of knowledge of the Bible. I even went as far to consider everything as a sin if there was a shred of doubt it could be a sin and some of these issues caused enormous stress. Yet my new implanted nature wanted to please the Lord on everything, this being the typical work of the Holy Spirit in every born again Christian and so I dealt with several issues of my life.

However during the years I noticed that several things I held for sin weren't actually a sin at all, that I was following man-made convictions based on vague and/or non-conclusive Bible texts, that I was following the conscience of others while my conscience should be founded in the Word of God. And due this experience I became a bit more critical not to accept everything so easily that is not based on clear evidence from the Scripture.

Back to topic: Although being happily married for 33 years I can tell you that whenever I see a good looking woman I still feel the same God-given stimulus as 33 years back. And there is nothing wrong with that. It's God's invention for reproduction. Being married Matthew 5:27-28 tells me it should end right there and I do not allow myself to react further on the stimulus and cut off any thoughts if they might appear. As far as I know I have never sinned against Matthew 5:27-28, that is, if the text is meant the way as described above.

However masturbation is a total different issue, I can tell you with 100% certainty that masturbation has nothing to do with sexual pleasure, nor the intend to cheat my wife, nor the lust for another woman, it's not like that at all. It's just that the stuff needs out, the body wants it that way, a 100% natural need God Himself invented and said it was good, as all things He created was good. We are easily forget about that fact.

Don't get me wrong, I am not promoting masturbation, I even have doubts on my own words as Ď still undecided on the issue and just want to contribute my thoughts and receive feedback. And thanks to this discussion I have decided to refrain from it till the issue is clear to me.

Regards,

Ed

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 12:50 PM
Matthew 5:27 "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old, ‘Thou shalt not commit adultery.’

Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

I hope you see that verse 27 is connected with verse 28. So the topic is adultery. Jesus is talking to married people, not to singles because they can not commit adultery because of their unmarried state.

Oh yes we can! The woman Jesus was referring to was likely married. Very few women of puberty age were not betrothed in biblical times. While they may not have consumated their marriage, betrothal was very likely. If a single man looks a betrothed or married woman and lusts after her, he is committing adultery.


Back to topic: Although being happily married for 33 years I can tell you that whenever I see a good looking woman I still feel the same God-given stimulus as 33 years back. And there is nothing wrong with that. It's God's invention for reproduction. Being married Matthew 5:27-28 tells me it should end right there and I do not allow myself to react further on the stimulus and cut off any thoughts if they might appear. As far as I know I have never sinned against Matthew 5:27-28, that is, if the text is meant the way as described above.The second look is the sin. Not the first. ;) We are hard wired to be attracted to beauty. Nothing wrong with that. But to covet something we don't have, that is sin.



However masturbation is a total different issue, I can tell you with 100% certainty that masturbation has nothing to do with sexual pleasure, nor the intend to cheat my wife, nor the lust for another woman, it's not like that at all. It's just that the stuff needs out, the body wants it that way, a 100% natural need God Himself invented and said it was good, as all things He created was good. We are easily forget about that fact. Nope. God provided a way out that doesn't require masturbation. Masturbation is a sexual act outside of the marriage bed. It has everything to do with sexual pleasure. Remove the pleasure and I can assure you, people would not masturbate. ;)

Slug1
Apr 28th 2008, 01:03 PM
If a single man looks a betrothed or married woman and lusts after her, he is committing adultery.

Mark, quick question on this statement. A "single" man, not being married... commits forinication and not adultry if my understanding is correct? Adultry if the married person is sinning in a sexual way while forinicating if unmarried.

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 01:05 PM
Mark, quick question on this statement. A "single" man, not being married... commits forinication and not adultry if my understanding is correct? Adultry if the married person is sinning in a sexual way while forinicating if unmarried.

The way I look at it slug, if I as a single man, sleep with a married woman, I have committed both adultery and fornication. Had she been single, then it would only be fornication. By sleeping with another man's wife, I was guilty of adultery too. At least that's the way I see it. ;)

Partaker of Christ
Apr 28th 2008, 01:29 PM
Masturbation is sex. It's sex with one's self. Sex is meant and designed for two people that are married. I think that's pretty self evident.

Paul said it is better to marry than to burn. If one feels inclined to masturbate, get married! Sex is for the marriage bed. Sexual immorality is all forms of sex that are performed outside of the marriage bed.

But don't the two become one flesh?

Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Slug1
Apr 28th 2008, 01:31 PM
But don't the two become one flesh?

Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.Yes, that is why intercouse between a man and his wife is Holy in the eyes of God. Cause "they" are one flesh. Any other sexual act by yourself or that which is not natural intercourse... is sexual immorality.

ProjectPeter
Apr 28th 2008, 01:36 PM
Please, Peter, I don't want to argue with you on this. Women are wired differently than men. For some reason, women can release without having to lust or fantasize.

What drives me to do it?! Stress, mainly. Even so, I know what the Holy Spirit requires of me. I know His voice, and I know that He has convicted me about this.And honestly... why is it that you think the Spirit convicted you of this if it isn't a sin?

JenniferBerry
Apr 28th 2008, 01:51 PM
Just because it's the marriage bed and you are in privacy at that moment in time doesn't mean God can't see you. And if we are to do "all" things as unto the Lord then I would have to say if what you are doing at that moment would not please God then maybe you ought not do it.

ProjectPeter
Apr 28th 2008, 01:57 PM
Your application of this passage is misplaced. Paul exorts against fornication not masterbation.

The fact tha "it ain't in there" suggests that our opnions on the matter ought not be so definitive as many on this board have tried to make them.

It appears that the Bible offers very general guidelines and then allows our individual conscience to fill in the gaps with each of us at different places relative to these issues. That is an okay thing. This seems to be the only solution unless one gives St. Thomas Acquinas any creedance, which I know people do not around here.Um.... why do you think Paul used the word immorality? Goodness... folks know what is right and wrong once they reach a certain age. If you're old enough for that release everyone seems so fond of... then you're old enough to have that whole right and wrong thing happening. That a person needs to see the word "masturbation" or some such in Scripture... pretty much the same argument that I hear folks use for doing drugs... porn, even homosexuality although one has to totally work to convince themselves the Scripture doesn't make that right clear. But abortion... it ain't in there either. Most any passage one uses... the same hollering.

Here is the thing... it is definitive thus the board stand on the issue. You don't like how we define it and that is up to you. Not a worry with me on this because ultimately you're just one that fights for it because you're likely living pretty deep in the issue. So you make excuses and that happens. Sexual immorality... it is a sin.

If you are married and you and the wife want to lay there and diddle yourself while having an intimate moment then hey... it's your wife and your her husband. Knock yourself out. But keep in mind that even then one can become sinful in things and rest assured... many do graduate to that point. It's a reality and it happens a lot. Look at some of the issues that come up in these threads. Porn... okay when with the wifey! Uh... no it isn't. It is watching other folks have sex and just because the Bible doesn't specifically mention porn or even watching other folks have sex... there is nothing pure. Nothing holy. Nothing good about doing it and it can lead to issues that ruin lives. Again... just another reality.

Partaker of Christ
Apr 28th 2008, 02:02 PM
I mentioned in my last post about what sexual immorality (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1619533&postcount=80) means and how if the Bible had to spell it all (defines) out for us (Letter of the Word) then there would be many more pages of scripture to cover all the sexual acts that will crop up from the time those Holy Spirit inspired words were penned till the day that Jesus returns. Instead the Holy Spirit used the two words Sexual Immorality and we are to use the Spirit of the Word and those two words to seek God and understand what the meaning is.

Anything that is not holy sexual intercourse in the bed of a married couple (male and female) is Sexual Immorality, thus is a sin.

In the O/T, the duty of a man was to lay with the wife of his brother, who had died without having a child. Is that sex outside of marriage, or did he have to marry her first, and if not, was that a sin?

Could the man 'stand up' to the call of duty, even if he did not lust after her? How does he get aroused?

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 02:03 PM
In the O/T, the duty of a man was to lay with the wife of his brother, who had died without having a child. Is that sex outside of marriage, or did he have to marry her first, and if not, was that a sin?

Could the man 'stand up' to the call of duty, even if he did not lust after her? How does he get aroused?

He was to marry her first.

ProjectPeter
Apr 28th 2008, 02:07 PM
What Biblical basis do you have for barring sodomy? I asked you that in a previous post and you offered no answer.

So your rubric here is that "if it is not permitted, it is prohibited"? What is your Biblical basis for this rubric? In other words, you essentially are assterting "God specifically said marital sex is not a sin, so it is not a sin" and "God makes no mention of masterbation at all so that must make it a sin." That's absurd. God also makes no mention of oral sex yet there seems to be no connotation that it is sinful when performed by a married couple. Again, I ask, on what grounds do you have to assume that what is not permitted must be prohibited?

Also, your assertions appear to imply that sexuality, by definition, is sinful in nature. That could not be further from the truth.

Also, masterbation is not sex. On what basis do you have to call it sex?


I forgot to ask this earlier - why are you labeling kinky sex a sin now? If it is between a married couple, that should be perfectly acceptable. There is no reason why a married couple cannot add however much kink they want in theri sex life as far as I can see, no?


Ok, Brother Mark, so masterbation is sex because that is how you define it. That does not, by your utterance, make it so. Again, I ask, on what basis do you have to call it sex? According to dictionary.com sex is "to engage in sexual intercourse" - masterbation is not that. Indeed, if masterbation was sex, people would call it so.


I would agree that allowing pornography to cause your own sex life to be unsatisfying is the result of sin.

HOwever, if dressing with bobby-socks and pigtains gets your husband going, then who's to say that that is a sin? It's between husband and wife and there is nothing wrong with that. Aside fro gender restrictions (i.e.: homosexuality), the Bible really does not speak to what sorts of things should and should not arouse someone and neither should you, nor should you judge it as there is no basis to judge it by.


Defined by what or whom? And what gave that what or whom the authority to define it?Let me make this very clear. You didn't start this thread to discuss this. You started this thread to simply be contrary to the rules and to argue the issue thus trying to make sexual immorality something akin to okay as long as it is wrapped around a marriage.

This is a real time issue that we will discuss in here. What we won't have... someone in here pushing perversion as okay to do. So far... you are just saying it is all good and there is nothing sinful that a man and woman can do (married) that is sinful. That ain't happening in here.

This idea that masturbation isn't sex is nonsense. Clinton didn't really have sex either and even the world laughed at that silliness. So be it known... this is likely a topic you should shy away from on this board.

ProjectPeter
Apr 28th 2008, 02:09 PM
This thread is closed. When folks start defending perversion as something righteous... it's done... even in contro. Masturbation is sex. Weird sex but sex none the less. If you are doing this and you are single... stop. Find you a good and godly lady and get married. If you are married and this is something you regularly have to practice... then go see a counselor. Something is broken. If you claim to be a Christian and yet you see no problem with sexual fantasy, porn, masturbation, etc... then you need to search yourself, repent, knock it off and turn to God. Then you will truly be saved.