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stillsearchin7
Apr 26th 2008, 03:41 AM
.... or rather, eternal life, so how many of you keep the Ten Commandments(I hope I don't come off judgemental or nosy, just curiousity)?

quiet dove
Apr 26th 2008, 05:55 AM
Did you mean to have this in End Times forum or were you shooting for Bible Chat? If Bible Chat was your intended forum I can move it for you.

Literalist-Luke
Apr 26th 2008, 06:05 AM
.... or rather, eternal life, so how many of you keep the Ten Commandments(I hope I don't come off judgemental or nosy, just curiousity)?I suppose that next you're going to tell us we need to be going to church on Saturday instead of Sunday.

markedward
Apr 26th 2008, 06:07 AM
.... or rather, eternal life, so how many of you keep the Ten Commandments(I hope I don't come off judgemental or nosy, just curiousity)?Eternal life comes through faith in the Son. We are not justified by our works, but by faith.

watchinginawe
Apr 26th 2008, 01:20 PM
According to the Lord, the Ten Commandments is the way towards eternal salvation.....
.... or rather, eternal life, so how many of you keep the Ten Commandments(I hope I don't come off judgemental or nosy, just curiousity)?Here is the relevant scripture (I think). Do you mean some place else? Anyway, Jesus does not say that the Ten Commandments is the way in the following scripture. Actually Jesus, when pressed on which commandments, gives a list of less than "the ten".

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Now, perhaps the one asking was trying to trick Jesus and see if He even knew the Ten Commandments, but we know that Jesus knew the Ten Commandments. So, are the above all that one must do for eternal life? Is the list some how invalidated by other scripture? Or was the list only for this particular person and not applicable to us? If so, are there then different commandments for each individual? What would be my list?

Also, ponder this. Assuming that I keep the above commandments starting from this day forward, does that forgive me for my past transgressions? Or is there a statute of limitations on my past transgressions? Or do I receive forgiveness for past transgressions but not any present transgressions after realizing that I must keep the commandments?

God Bless!

wombat
Apr 26th 2008, 04:11 PM
.... or rather, eternal life, so how many of you keep the Ten Commandments(I hope I don't come off judgemental or nosy, just curiousity)?

Hello! I have a feeling that this thread will be moved to a different forum, but I wanted to reply now in case I don't see it later. There is a key book in the Bible that talks about this issue of keeping the commandments and whether doing so gives you eternal life. The reference is Galatians 3:5-29, which is a long section. It speaks about how no one can ever keep every single one of the commandments, and that the law was actually given to show us how guilty we are of sin. We are all prisoners of sin, so freedom and life only come through believing in Jesus. The reference also says that Abraham believed God, so God declared him righteous because of his faith. I hope this is very helpful in answering your question.

stillsearchin7
Apr 26th 2008, 04:20 PM
Hello! I have a feeling that this thread will be moved to a different forum, but I wanted to reply now in case I don't see it later. There is a key book in the Bible that talks about this issue of keeping the commandments and whether doing so gives you eternal life. The reference is Galatians 3:5-29, which is a long section. It speaks about how no one can ever keep every single one of the commandments, and that the law was actually given to show us how guilty we are of sin. We are all prisoners of sin, so freedom and life only come through believing in Jesus. The reference also says that Abraham believed God, so God declared him righteous because of his faith. I hope this is very helpful in answering your question.

How are you doing, Wombat. In what you are saying, you are partially right, but there is a huge difference between the law and God's commandments. It's true that we cannot keep every single law, that's what Christ accomplished, but there's no scripture saying that we aren't able to keep the commandments.

stillsearchin7
Apr 26th 2008, 05:03 PM
Here is the relevant scripture (I think). Do you mean some place else? Anyway, Jesus does not say that the Ten Commandments is the way in the following scripture. Actually Jesus, when pressed on which commandments, gives a list of less than "the ten".

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Now, perhaps the one asking was trying to trick Jesus and see if He even knew the Ten Commandments, but we know that Jesus knew the Ten Commandments. So, are the above all that one must do for eternal life? Is the list some how invalidated by other scripture? Or was the list only for this particular person and not applicable to us? If so, are there then different commandments for each individual? What would be my list?

Also, ponder this. Assuming that I keep the above commandments starting from this day forward, does that forgive me for my past transgressions? Or is there a statute of limitations on my past transgressions? Or do I receive forgiveness for past transgressions but not any present transgressions after realizing that I must keep the commandments?

God Bless!


How are you doing? You are right when you say Christ gave a list less than ten, but what set of commandments was he
refering to? He didn't mention the first commandment, nor taking the name of the Lord in vain, so is it
okay to do so, since he didn't name them? Those commandments include the sabbath, for the book of James
tells you if you are guilty of one, you are guilty of all.

heart hammer
Apr 26th 2008, 05:27 PM
We cannot the Law was written to convivt us of short comings so that no flesh may glory in His presence. The Law was also meant to point to Christ when He came. The difference is that Christ was able and fully did keep the Law and still died for sin Not His own but ours. The covenant of Christ in His Body and Blood has freed us from the old covenant which was weak throught the flesh. We are not to bind burdens hard to bare on one another but forgive one another and see ourselves compared to the Holiness of the Righteous Lord and not to compare ourselves to one another. The Spirit which is the comforter does not condemn us of sin but convicts us of it. It takes the desire away. We cannot even see the wickedness within us unless the Spirit reveals it. The Lord works on us from the inside out. We can only work from the outside and can never truly get in as far as we need to. We cannot live by the Law...we know that and God knows that That defines our need for Christ because without Him we are still dead in sin as defined by God. The wages of sin are death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
Take Care and God Bless

markedward
Apr 26th 2008, 05:30 PM
.... or rather, eternal life, so how many of you keep the Ten Commandments(I hope I don't come off judgemental or nosy, just curiousity)?Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Salvation is only found in faith. Following God's laws and commands are simply evidence of the faith we place in Him.

LivingSacrafice
Apr 26th 2008, 06:08 PM
Eternal life comes through faith in the Son. We are not justified by our works, but by faith.

Ok but you also have to understand that how can someone enter heaven with their souls not saved and sanctified.We can have faith to want to change but if you dont have a pure heart to do these things then your just saying it to say it,and you want to do these things of sin.Now yes God doesnt
go by our works,we could give a million dollars to him or in the name of Jesus,but if we arent lined up with Gods will and we're in sin how can you recieve eternal life.

stillsearchin7
Apr 26th 2008, 06:19 PM
Like I've said, there's a huge difference between the law and God's Commandments. The Most High wrote the ten, he did not write the law. All throughout the scripture it tells you to keep God's commandments, even in the new testament, after Christ.

Saved7
Apr 26th 2008, 06:35 PM
I believe you have missed the bigger part of the 10 commandments....it's the law of love. The first two commandments tell us to love God with all our hearts and souls and minds, and the second is like it, love your neighbor as you love yourself.
If you keep these two commandments, there is no room to break the commandments, as love doesn't sin against those we love. All the other commanments are tied to loving someone else.
But as our Lord showed when He questioned the rich young ruler, it is impossible for us to obey every command, therefore, He goes on to say with God all things are possible. It is God's righteousness not our own that gets us into heaven.

markedward
Apr 26th 2008, 06:47 PM
Ok but you also have to understand that how can someone enter heaven with their souls not saved and sanctified.Our salvation and sanctification only comes from our faith in Jesus.


We can have faith to want to change but if you dont have a pure heart to do these things then your just saying it to say it,and you want to do these things of sin.Now yes God doesnt
go by our works,we could give a million dollars to him or in the name of Jesus,but if we arent lined up with Gods will and we're in sin how can you recieve eternal life.This is the idea that one is saved by faith and works, that one must have both to be saved, when Scripture teaches that one is saved only through faith. Works are evidence of the faith, but if a person has no works doesn't mean they have no faith. Even the famous John 3:16 says this. It says that "whosoever believes in Him has everlasting life." Not "whosoever believes in Him and does good things has everlasting life." Even before the Laws of Moses were given there was Abraham. He was not counted as righteous because of the good things he did, but because of his faith in God.

The whole point of Jesus doing what He did was because no man could be found righteous by their works.

No one can earn everlasting life. That is why Christ's salvation is given to us by the grace of God. It is a free thing, not something we have to earn.

stillsearchin7
Apr 26th 2008, 06:51 PM
I believe you have missed the bigger part of the 10 commandments....it's the law of love. The first two commandments tell us to love God with all our hearts and souls and minds, and the second is like it, love your neighbor as you love yourself.
If you keep these two commandments, there is no room to break the commandments, as love doesn't sin against those we love. All the other commanments are tied to loving someone else.
But as our Lord showed when He questioned the rich young ruler, it is impossible for us to obey every command, therefore, He goes on to say with God all things are possible. It is God's righteousness not our own that gets us into heaven.

Right. The commandment is to love God with all our heart, soul and mind. Now look at 1John 5:3 to see what that love is. If you love God with all of your heart, mind and soul, aren't you going to keep his commandments? Scripture says he that says I know him and keep not his commandments is a liar.

timmyb
Apr 26th 2008, 07:15 PM
we are saved by grace through faith which without works is dead and without grace the work will be fruitless... it goes hand in hand in hand...

quiet dove
Apr 26th 2008, 07:16 PM
I going to zip this on over to Bible Chat folks. :)

daughter
Apr 26th 2008, 07:56 PM
.... or rather, eternal life, so how many of you keep the Ten Commandments(I hope I don't come off judgemental or nosy, just curiousity)?
No. According to the Lord, "this is life eternal. That they know Thee (Jahveh) the only true God, and Jesus Christ Whom Thou hast sent."

Jesus says elsewhere that anyone who teaches anyone to disobey the least of His commandments will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven, and whoever teaches folks to keep His commandments will be great in the Kingdom of heaven. But a misunderstanding about those commandments isn't enough to damn someone.

I try to keep all ten commandments. God helps me, and when I fall short (for example, coveting, or being angry with my neighbour, etc) He instructs me where I've failed and helps make me cleaner in my heart. The one that most people get het up on is Sabbath, and lots of people keep a Sabbath in different ways. Today is a Sabbath day. (Actually, the sun's down now, so technically it's the first day of the week when Jesus rose... woohoo!) My son and I kept the Sabbath by travelling around handing out tracts, and were blessed to witness to someone, who was receptive to God's word. We're going to church tomorrow, to fellowship with other believers. But we keep the Sabbath special in our own way, and hope that God understands. I'm sure other genuine Christians have their own ways of keeping God's laws, and that He understands.

Saved7
Apr 26th 2008, 07:57 PM
Right. The commandment is to love God with all our heart, soul and mind. Now look at 1John 5:3 to see what that love is. If you love God with all of your heart, mind and soul, aren't you going to keep his commandments? Scripture says he that says I know him and keep not his commandments is a liar.

So you think that you have the ability to never sin again, based on your ability to love God???? My point is this, while i agree, that if we love God we will keep His commands, that doesn't mean that we won't mess up from time to time. KEEPING the commands means that you by nature tend toward these things; though you mess up from time to time. To say that you love somebody, means that you will not INENTIONALLY sin against them, but we still do. To say that you have never hurt someone you love would be a lie. Therefore, grace through faith.
If you are working at keeping those commands all the time, for fear of hell, then you need to question whether you have faith in our God and His grace at all. Abraham and David we all know were heaven bound, and they both messed up. Forgiveness.
If we had the capacity to love lilke God does, we would never sin, then we would have no need for forgiveness and Christ died in vain.

stillsearchin7
Apr 26th 2008, 11:37 PM
So you think that you have the ability to never sin again, based on your ability to love God???? My point is this, while i agree, that if we love God we will keep His commands, that doesn't mean that we won't mess up from time to time. KEEPING the commands means that you by nature tend toward these things; though you mess up from time to time. To say that you love somebody, means that you will not INENTIONALLY sin against them, but we still do. To say that you have never hurt someone you love would be a lie. Therefore, grace through faith.
If you are working at keeping those commands all the time, for fear of hell, then you need to question whether you have faith in our God and His grace at all. Abraham and David we all know were heaven bound, and they both messed up. Forgiveness.
If we had the capacity to love lilke God does, we would never sin, then we would have no need for forgiveness and Christ died in vain.

When did I say I have the ability to never sin again? All I did was quote a scripture. I don't keep the commandments for fear of hell, but for obedience towards the Most High. I have faith in God and his grace, but grace isn't a license to sin. "Shall we sin, that grace may aboud?"

stillsearchin7
Apr 26th 2008, 11:47 PM
No. According to the Lord, "this is life eternal. That they know Thee (Jahveh) the only true God, and Jesus Christ Whom Thou hast sent."

Jesus says elsewhere that anyone who teaches anyone to disobey the least of His commandments will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven, and whoever teaches folks to keep His commandments will be great in the Kingdom of heaven. But a misunderstanding about those commandments isn't enough to damn someone.

I try to keep all ten commandments. God helps me, and when I fall short (for example, coveting, or being angry with my neighbour, etc) He instructs me where I've failed and helps make me cleaner in my heart. The one that most people get het up on is Sabbath, and lots of people keep a Sabbath in different ways. Today is a Sabbath day. (Actually, the sun's down now, so technically it's the first day of the week when Jesus rose... woohoo!) My son and I kept the Sabbath by travelling around handing out tracts, and were blessed to witness to someone, who was receptive to God's word. We're going to church tomorrow, to fellowship with other believers. But we keep the Sabbath special in our own way, and hope that God understands. I'm sure other genuine Christians have their own ways of keeping God's laws, and that He understands.

How are you doing. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but what do you think is more acceptable to the Most High, keeping the Sabbath as he told us to, or our own way?

Literalist-Luke
Apr 27th 2008, 12:38 AM
How are you doing. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but what do you think is more acceptable to the Most High, keeping the Sabbath as he told us to, or our own way?That depends: What would be the purpose of keeping the Sabbath?

And if your answer is something like "Because He commanded us to", then my answer to that is "No, He didn't. He commanded Israel to keep the Sabbath, Gentiles were specifically exempted in Acts 15."

So with that in mind, again, what would be the purpose of keeping the Sabbath?

Saved7
Apr 27th 2008, 12:43 AM
When did I say I have the ability to never sin again? All I did was quote a scripture. I don't keep the commandments for fear of hell, but for obedience towards the Most High. I have faith in God and his grace, but grace isn't a license to sin. "Shall we sin, that grace may aboud?"


ooooh, so then when we read all your other posts, which seemed to insinuate that those who do sin from time to time are going to hell, because in order to go to heaven we must keep all of the commandments at all times...we simply misunderstood. Just wanted to make sure you didn't think it was a matter of works, but a matter of grace followed by works which will by your NEW NATURE follow, though we still have our old flesh which acts up from time to time.
Thank God for grace!!!:pp

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 03:22 AM
ooooh, so then when we read all your other posts, which seemed to insinuate that those who do sin from time to time are going to hell, because in order to go to heaven we must keep all of the commandments at all times...we simply misunderstood. Just wanted to make sure you didn't think it was a matter of works, but a matter of grace followed by works which will by your NEW NATURE follow, though we still have our old flesh which acts up from time to time.
Thank God for grace!!!:pp

I never insinuated that those who sin from time to time are going to hell; maybe that's what you're taking from what I'm saying but I never said that.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 03:31 AM
That depends: What would be the purpose of keeping the Sabbath?

And if your answer is something like "Because He commanded us to", then my answer to that is "No, He didn't. He commanded Israel to keep the Sabbath, Gentiles were specifically exempted in Acts 15."

So with that in mind, again, what would be the purpose of keeping the Sabbath?

You're referring to Acts 15:24 if I'm not mistaken; that verse doesn't mean they were exempted from the sabbath, which is a commandment of the Most High, they were exempted from the law; but one will not be able to understand that if they don't know the difference between the law and God's commandments.

Read Isaiah 56, and you'll see that other nations should keep the sabbath.
(And please don't say"that's the old testament, so it doesn't matter.")

losthorizon
Apr 27th 2008, 03:48 AM
...I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but what do you think is more acceptable to the Most High, keeping the Sabbath as he told us to, or our own way?
Don’t be fooled by misguided Sabbatarians – the command to keep the Sabbath holy was only given to the Hebrew nation (never to Gentiles) and it was nailed to the cross 2000 years ago when the Mosaic system ended. There is no command in the New Testament for Christians to keep the Sabbath holy. Therefore we are plainly told to...
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17

losthorizon
Apr 27th 2008, 03:59 AM
You're referring to Acts 15:24 if I'm not mistaken; that verse doesn't mean they were exempted from the sabbath, which is a commandment of the Most High, they were exempted from the law; but one will not be able to understand that if they don't know the difference between the law and God's commandments.

The command to Noah to build an ark of acacia wood is also a command of the Eternal but it was not a command given to all of God’s people for all time. Likewise, the command to keep the Sabbath was a command of God to a specific people (the Jews) for a specific period of time. Christians were never commanded to build an ark or to keep the Sabbath – you are in error.

Naphal
Apr 27th 2008, 04:05 AM
but one will not be able to understand that if they don't know the difference between the law and God's commandments.

There is no such difference.

Deuteronomy 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.


Proverbs 3:1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:


Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Naphal
Apr 27th 2008, 04:07 AM
The command to Noah to build an ark of acacia wood is also a command of the Eternal but it was not a command given to all of God’s people for all time. Likewise, the command to keep the Sabbath was a command of God to a specific people (the Jews) for a specific period of time. Christians were never commanded to build an ark or to keep the Sabbath – your are in error.


Yes this is fully accurate, especially the "for a specific period of time" part.

Literalist-Luke
Apr 27th 2008, 04:29 AM
You're referring to Acts 15:24 if I'm not mistaken; that verse doesn't mean they were exempted from the sabbath, which is a commandment of the Most High, they were exempted from the law; but one will not be able to understand that if they don't know the difference between the law and God's commandments.

Read Isaiah 56, and you'll see that other nations should keep the sabbath.
(And please don't say"that's the old testament, so it doesn't matter.")Assuming that I were to go along with this, you still didn't answer my question - What would be the purpose of keeping the Sabbath?

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 04:32 AM
The command to Noah to build an ark of acacia wood is also a command of the Eternal but it was not a command given to all of God’s people for all time. Likewise, the command to keep the Sabbath was a command of God to a specific people (the Jews) for a specific period of time. Christians were never commanded to build an ark or to keep the Sabbath – you are in error.

I never mentioned Noah, so why are you trying to attribute him to this discussion? No Jews were ever told to build an ark, so what's your point? Like I told someone else, read Isaiah 56.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 04:36 AM
There is no such difference.

Deuteronomy 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.


Proverbs 3:1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:


Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

In Proverbs 3:1, who was speaking? If it wasn't the Most High, then you quoting that scripture is irrelevant.

If Ephesians 2:15 is talking of the ten commandments, why don't we all become lawless and do whatever we feel?

The Most High didn't write the law.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 04:38 AM
Yes this is fully accurate, especially the "for a specific period of time" part.

What is that specific period of time? because the scripture says the sabbath is a sign between him and his people forever.

Naphal
Apr 27th 2008, 04:38 AM
I never mentioned Noah, so why are you trying to attribute him to this discussion? No Jews were ever told to build an ark, so what's your point? Like I told someone else, read Isaiah 56.


I believe the point was to show that certain things are for certain people and certain times. We must rightly divide all these things to properly understand them. The Sabbath day was only for the Jews and only was in effect until the NT came. It doesn't apply as a law/commandment to anyone who is a Christian. The closest thing for a Christian is that we must be in Christ who is our Sabbath.

Naphal
Apr 27th 2008, 04:40 AM
What is that specific period of time? because the scripture says the sabbath is a sign between him and his people forever.

Would you mind quoting that verse?

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 04:41 AM
Assuming that I were to go along with this, you still didn't answer my question - What would be the purpose of keeping the Sabbath?

Assuming that you in fact did go along with, like I said before; obedience. Like the scripture says, the love of the Father is keeping his commandments. Not only obedience, but The Most High says those who keep the sabbath, not polluting it, them will he bring to his holy mountain; where, according to Obadiah, deliverence is.(Isaiah 56)

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 04:43 AM
Would you mind quoting that verse?

I wouldn't mind at all, if you'd be willing first to tell me how you came to the conclusion(using scripture)that the sabbath was until the new testament.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 04:44 AM
I believe the point was to show that certain things are for certain people and certain times. We must rightly divide all these things to properly understand them. The Sabbath day was only for the Jews and only was in effect until the NT came. It doesn't apply as a law/commandment to anyone who is a Christian. The closest thing for a Christian is that we must be in Christ who is our Sabbath.

I hear a lot of people say that Christ is our sabbath, far too many actually, but is there a scripture that tells us that Christ is our sabbath?

Naphal
Apr 27th 2008, 04:47 AM
I wouldn't mind at all, if you'd be willing first to tell me how you came to the conclusion(using scripture)that the sabbath was until the new testament.

The Saturday Sabbath began to come to an end as Christ was in the process of fulfilling it. This is how he and his disciples could work on the Sabbath and not be guilty of a sin. When the law was abolished and we were set free from it, then we were free from even that one commandment of the law. New law was a part of the new covenant but a Sabbath day was not included yet the Sabbath concept lived on in greater form, fulfilled in Christ as the true, spiritual rest everyday and for all days and time to come.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 04:50 AM
The Saturday Sabbath began to come to an end as Christ was in the process of fulfilling it. This is how he and his disciples could work on the Sabbath and not be guilty of a sin. When the law was abolished and we were set free from it, then we were free from even that one commandment of the law. New law was a part of the new covenant but a Sabbath day was not included yet the Sabbath concept lived on in greater form, fulfilled in Christ as the true, spiritual rest everyday and for all days and time to come.

Exodus 31:16-17

Naphal
Apr 27th 2008, 04:55 AM
I hear a lot of people say that Christ is our sabbath, far too many actually, but is there a scripture that tells us that Christ is our sabbath?

Hebrews 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not
afterward have spoken of another day.
Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath
ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

"For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath
ceased from his own works, as God did from his."

Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest
any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

"Let us labour therefore to enter into THAT rest, lest
any man fall after the same example of unbelief."


Christ became our Sabbath yes, but those without the faith cannot enter into that rest which is in Him.


Matthew 11:28-30
(28) Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.(29) Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.(30) For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


So our real rest, the real sabbath lies within Him. If we are in Him we keep the sabbath Holy.

Literalist-Luke
Apr 27th 2008, 04:57 AM
OK, as long as we're simply going to throw Scripture in each other's face, two can play at that game:

Isaiah 1:13-14

13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your evil assemblies.

14 Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals
I hate with all my being.
They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.

Now, are you going to answer my question? What is the purpose of us keeping the Sabbath? Why do we need to do it when we are not Israel????????????????????????????????????????????

Naphal
Apr 27th 2008, 04:58 AM
Exodus 31:16-17

The Sabbath still exists but it is not in it's earlier form. We also have a sacrificed lamb and Christ will always be that but we do not kill lambs anymore.


Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath:
Colossians 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


Christ is the light which did cast the saturday Sabbath shadow. It was always him!

Literalist-Luke
Apr 27th 2008, 05:00 AM
Micah 6:8 - "He has shown all you people what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."

Hmmm, I'm having trouble finding anything about the Sabbath in there...:hmm:

Literalist-Luke
Apr 27th 2008, 05:04 AM
Colossians 2:16 - "Therefore do not let anyone judge you...with regard to...a Sabbath day."

Do I need to keep going? Why do Gentiles need to keep the Sabbath? What purpose does it serve? How will my life be worse if I don't keep the Sabbath?

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 05:22 AM
OK, as long as we're simply going to throw Scripture in each other's face, two can play at that game:

Isaiah 1:13-14

13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your evil assemblies.

14 Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals
I hate with all my being.
They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.

Now, are you going to answer my question? What is the purpose of us keeping the Sabbath? Why do we need to do it when we are not Israel????????????????????????????????????????????

That's your problem right there, by saying two can play that game. I don't look at the scriptures as a game. This might be a competition to you.
Isaiah says "YOUR new moon feast and YOUR appointed festivals. There's a difference between sabbaths and the sabbath. Sabbaths referes to ceremonial sabbaths. If you look throughout the scriptures, God clearly states when he is speaking of His sabbath, the day He sanctified, and ceremonials sabbaths.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 05:25 AM
Colossians 2:16 - "Therefore do not let anyone judge you...with regard to...a Sabbath day."

Do I need to keep going? Why do Gentiles need to keep the Sabbath? What purpose does it serve? How will my life be worse if I don't keep the Sabbath?

You don't have to keep going, but you're free to do so. I don't say this to spite you, but you don't understand some of the scriptures you bring out. Read Isaiah 56, and you'll see why Gentiles should keep the sabbath.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 05:30 AM
Hebrews 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not
afterward have spoken of another day.
Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath
ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

"For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath
ceased from his own works, as God did from his."

Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest
any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

"Let us labour therefore to enter into THAT rest, lest
any man fall after the same example of unbelief."


Christ became our Sabbath yes, but those without the faith cannot enter into that rest which is in Him.


Matthew 11:28-30
(28) Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.(29) Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.(30) For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


So our real rest, the real sabbath lies within Him. If we are in Him we keep the sabbath Holy.

Hebrews 4:10-For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Hebrews 4:11-Let us therefore labour to enter into that rest....

How do we cease from our works as God did from his? On the seventh day, as The Most High did.

Naphal
Apr 27th 2008, 05:32 AM
Hebrews 4:10-For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Hebrews 4:11-Let us therefore labour to enter into that rest....

How do we cease from our works as God did from his? On the seventh day, as The Most High did.



It's not talking about literal works or literally resting on a certain day...its a deeper more profound rest that is spiritual.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 05:57 AM
It's not talking about literal works or literally resting on a certain day...its a deeper more profound rest that is spiritual.

What scripture supports that that verse is speaking of a spiritual rest?
If you can, read Isaiah 56 and tell me what that means to you.

Naphal
Apr 27th 2008, 06:06 AM
What scripture supports that that verse is speaking of a spiritual rest?


"Let us therefore labour to enter into that rest"

The standard Sabbath was a day in which we rested from work. The rest the NT scripture speaks of is one we must labor to enter! This is understood as being a spiritual rest, but call it what you will. It is different in many ways from the 7th day rest.






If you can, read Isaiah 56 and tell me what that means to you.



It speaks of honoring the Sabbath and the covenant of the time. That was great for that time but we live in new times and a new covenant and a new law and a new Sabbath.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 06:14 AM
"Let us therefore labour to enter into that rest"

The standard Sabbath was a day in which we rested from work. The rest the NT scripture speaks of is one we must labor to enter! This is understood as being a spiritual rest, but call it what you will. It is different in many ways from the 7th day rest.






It speaks of honoring the Sabbath and the covenant of the time. That was great for that time but we live in new times and a new covenant and a new law and a new Sabbath.

Isaiah 56 says "Those who keep the sabbath, them will he bring to his holy mountain(which is where deliverence is in the days to come) That's the word of the Lord himself. Does the New testament make that promise void?

Naphal
Apr 27th 2008, 06:17 AM
Heb 3:17 Who were the people that made God angry for forty years? Weren't they the ones that sinned and died in the desert?
Heb 3:18 And who did God say would never enter his place of rest? Weren't they the ones that disobeyed him?
Heb 3:19 We see that those people did not enter the place of rest because they did not have faith.

Contextually it is clear this is a different kind of rest which those who had the Sabbath could not enter into. Paul continues about this in the next chapter.

Naphal
Apr 27th 2008, 06:19 AM
Isaiah 56 says "Those who keep the sabbath, them will he bring to his holy mountain(which is where deliverence is in the days to come) That's the word of the Lord himself. Does the New testament make that promise void?

The NT changes what the Sabbath is along with the entire covenant. There is no salvation outside of Christ, whether you keep the Sabbath or not. We must keep Christ as the Sabbath, our Saviour.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 06:27 AM
All right. One more question: In the 24th chapter of Matthew, when Christ is speaking of prophecy, concerning the end times, why did he say pray your flight be not in winter nor on the sabbath, if the sabbath was done away with?

Naphal
Apr 27th 2008, 06:30 AM
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Here Christ is mocking those who would be still in bondage to the old covenant rules for the Sabbath. He says they better pray that this abomination doesn't show up on the Sabbath day or else they won't be able to get away and escape as he is advising.

He knew that the abomination would come in the future when the Sabbath wouldn't prevent Christians from escaping. But for all else, they had better pray it didn't happen on the Sabbath or they would be unable to escape. This also makes reference to Sabbath restrictions on travel distances.

Naphal
Apr 27th 2008, 06:35 AM
If you don't agree, please tell us why the arrival of this abomination on the Sabbath would be something to pray against...what about the Sabbath would make it hard to escape?

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 09:06 AM
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Here Christ is mocking those who would be still in bondage to the old covenant rules for the Sabbath. He says they better pray that this abomination doesn't show up on the Sabbath day or else they won't be able to get away and escape as he is advising.

He knew that the abomination would come in the future when the Sabbath wouldn't prevent Christians from escaping. But for all else, they had better pray it didn't happen on the Sabbath or they would be unable to escape. This also makes reference to Sabbath restrictions on travel distances.

"Christ is mocking those that would be still in bondage..." Is that original? I'm not saying that to spite, but that's the first time I heard that one.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 09:07 AM
If you don't agree, please tell us why the arrival of this abomination on the Sabbath would be something to pray against...what about the Sabbath would make it hard to escape?

I don't agree simply for the fact that it doesn't make sense.

Naphal
Apr 27th 2008, 09:15 AM
"Christ is mocking those that would be still in bondage..." Is that original? I'm not saying that to spite, but that's the first time I heard that one.

Think of the other possibility then: That God might cause the abomination to come on a Sabbath therefore making it impossible for people to escape.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphal http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1618736#post1618736)
If you don't agree, please tell us why the arrival of this abomination on the Sabbath would be something to pray against...what about the Sabbath would make it hard to escape?

I don't agree simply for the fact that it doesn't make sense.


Yes I knew you would say that so please answer the question.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 09:30 AM
Think of the other possibility then: That God might cause the abomination to come on a Sabbath therefore making it impossible for people to escape.




Yes I knew you would say that so please answer the question.

You answered your own question-That God might cause the abomination....now right there you said "might" as in you don't know, or you're not sure, or it's not scriptual.

Naphal
Apr 27th 2008, 09:33 AM
Why would he warn them if when it occurs they have no way to get out? he answer is he wouldn't. Therefore he was taking a bit of a pot shot at those who would still be keeping the old Sabbath. He knew the Jews would be in control of that area when all of this would occur.

But i did ask you what was it about the Sabbath that would be bad for people that were trying to escape.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 09:43 AM
Why would he warn them if when it occurs they have no way to get out? he answer is he wouldn't. Therefore he was taking a bit of a pot shot at those who would still be keeping the old Sabbath. He knew the Jews would be in control of that area when all of this would occur.

But i did ask you what was it about the Sabbath that would be bad for people that were trying to escape.

You got me-what is it?(even though you already answered it)

Naphal
Apr 27th 2008, 10:00 AM
I didn't actually answer it. It's because of travel restrictions on a Sabbath. That's why you would pray your escape wouldnt fall on a Sabbath. However, this isn't an issue for Christians, not in our time and not on the day Christ said those words.

watchinginawe
Apr 27th 2008, 12:57 PM
According to the Lord, the Ten Commandments is the way towards eternal salvation..... .... or rather, eternal life, so how many of you keep the Ten Commandments(I hope I don't come off judgemental or nosy, just curiousity)?stillsearchin7, in your view, what role does Jesus Christ play in eternal salvation? Is there a New Testament?

God Bless!

losthorizon
Apr 27th 2008, 01:50 PM
I never mentioned Noah, so why are you trying to attribute him to this discussion? No Jews were ever told to build an ark, so what's your point? Like I told someone else, read Isaiah 56.
The point is God gave commands to different people at different time – not all of the commands He gave were for all people for all time. The command to obey the Sabbath was only given to the Hebrew nation and it was nailed to the cross 2000 years ago when the Mosaic system ended. There is no command in the New Testament for Christians to keep the Sabbath holy.

fordson
Apr 27th 2008, 02:30 PM
Maybe I can help answer your question about the 10 commandments. In Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus is teaching what commandments are necessary to follow which I refer to as the two great commandments.
The old covenant and what it consisted of was nailed to the cross when Christ was crucified signifying a change, read Colossians 2:14. The new covenant came into effect after Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, Ephesians 2:15 refers to this also.
The 10 commandments served the pupose that Paul refers to as the Law in Rom. 3:20. But the Law could not take away sins. That was accomplished through Christ's blood only. Under the old covenant the blood of bull and goats could not take away sin. Hebrews teaches about the superiority of the new compared to the old.
Some one else pointed out that in keeping the two great commandments, we would indeed be keeping all of what the 10 commandments require. For example, if I love my neighbor, I won't steal his goods. If I love God, I won't take His name in vain.
Indeed Christ was the only one who kept the Law perfectly. We cannot, but as a child of God, when we do sin, if we repent and ask God to forgive us, He will do so and we can start fresh again.
Hope this helps answer your question.
fordson

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 03:48 PM
stillsearchin7, in your view, what role does Jesus Christ play in eternal salvation? Is there a New Testament?

God Bless!

The Lord said it himself, " I am the resurrection, and the life...." So if anyone has any hope of making, you must follow Christ. He said no one can come to the Father but through me. Anything else?

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 03:53 PM
The point is God gave commands to different people at different time – not all of the commands He gave were for all people for all time. The command to obey the Sabbath was only given to the Hebrew nation and it was nailed to the cross 2000 years ago when the Mosaic system ended. There is no command in the New Testament for Christians to keep the Sabbath holy.

John 5:3-What commandments are these?
James 2:10-11-What does that mean to you?
Isaiah 56-If The Lord said those who keep the sabbath he will take to his holy mountain, where is the scripture where he says "Nevermind?"
Rev 12:17/Rev 14:12-Again, what commandments are these? I though all you had to do was believe in Christ, and have his faith.

TexasBeliever
Apr 27th 2008, 04:15 PM
Faith in Jesus is what saves us, but as the scriptures say, faith without works is dead. Keeping the commandments are the works.

Keeping the commandments alone without faith won't save us. That might make us a 'good' person but not a 'saved' person.

I remember Jesus telling His apostles, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel, (the good news of Jesus) AND teach them to observe everything I have taught you.'' He also said, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." and "Only those who do the will of My Father will enter the kingdom of heaven." and "I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it."

losthorizon
Apr 27th 2008, 06:17 PM
John 5:3-What commandments are these?



In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. John 5:3 (KJV)No commandments that I can see???


James 2:10-11-What does that mean to you?

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. James 2:10-12 (KJV)James is speaking here about the “the law of liberty” –ie- the gospel of Christ - a law obeyed from the heart - not of outward coercion but obedience from a willing spirit. Please note there is no requirement to keep the Sabbath holy anywhere in the book of James - why - because Christians are not commanded to keep that day holy.


Isaiah 56-If The Lord said those who keep the sabbath he will take to his holy mountain, where is the scripture where he says "Nevermind?"
Only those under the Old Covenant were required to keep the Sabbath – Christians are not now and have never been under the OC. It was taken away and nailed to the cross 2000 years ago.


Rev 12:17/Rev 14:12-Again, what commandments are these? I though all you had to do was believe in Christ, and have his faith.

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17 (KJV)The term “commandments of God” in this passage (and many other passages in the New Testament) is not a reference to the “Ten Commandments” given to the Jews only. Christians live and die under the “Law of Christ” and that law does not require Sabbath keeping and it never has – ever. There is no command for Christians in the book of Revelation to keep the Sabbath holy.

If it is your desire turn back "to the weak and beggarly elements" and “bind” Sabbath keeping on Christians (and it is) then the onus is yours to support your non-biblical view with scriptures that command Christians to keep the Sabbath. Can you deliver? If you can’t then you should stop peddling that which is not taught in the NT. Keeping the Sabbath was a "shadow" of what was to come - Christ has come - the shadow is no longer needed. The Sabbath was a sign given to the Hebrew nation under the Old Covenant but Jesus the Christ is the Sabbath rest for those who live under the New Covenant.
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Galatians 4:9-11 (KJV)

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 06:25 PM
In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. John 5:3 (KJV)No commandments that I can see???



For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. James 2:10-12 (KJV)James is speaking here about the “the law of liberty” –ie- the gospel of Christ - a law obeyed from the heart - not of outward coercion but obedience from a willing spirit. Please note there is no requirement to keep the Sabbath holy anywhere in the book of James - why - because Christians are not commanded to keep that day holy.


Only those under the Old Covenant were required to keep the Sabbath – Christians are not now and have never been under the OC. It was taken away and nailed to the cross 2000 years ago.



And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17 (KJV)The term “commandments of God” in this passage (and many other passages in the New Testament) is not a reference to the “Ten Commandments” given to the Jews only. Christians live and die under the “Law of Christ” and that law does not require Sabbath keeping and it never has – ever. There is no command for Christians in the book of Revelation to keep the Sabbath holy.


If it is your desire turn back "to the weak and beggarly elements" and “bind” Sabbath keeping on Christians (and it is) then the onus is yours to support your non-biblical view with scriptures that command Christians to keep the Sabbath. Can you deliver? If you can’t then you should stop peddling that which is not taught in the NT. Keeping the Sabbath was a "shadow" of what was to come - Christ has come - the shadow is no longer needed. The Sabbath was a sign under the Old Covenant but Jesus Christ is the Sabbath rest for Christians under the New Covenant.
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Galatians 4:9-11 (KJV)
Sorry, I meant 1John 5:3

What you don't understand about that verse in Isaiah is that is prophecy, a word from the Lord. I've presented plenty of scriptures, but you don't understand them.

Did Christ ever say no to keep that sabbath?
Your "law of liberty"explantion makes no sense. What commandments are in those law that James said if we break one we are guilty of all?

Hebrews 4:10-11-How do we rest as God did? By saying Jesus is our sabbath? Christ never said" I am your sabbath." He said sabbath was made for man and never denouced it.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 06:26 PM
Faith in Jesus is what saves us, but as the scriptures say, faith without works is dead. Keeping the commandments are the works.

Keeping the commandments alone without faith won't save us. That might make us a 'good' person but not a 'saved' person.

I remember Jesus telling His apostles, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel, (the good news of Jesus) AND teach them to observe everything I have taught you.'' He also said, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." and "Only those who do the will of My Father will enter the kingdom of heaven." and "I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it."

Couldn't agree more.

losthorizon
Apr 27th 2008, 06:41 PM
...What you don't understand about that verse in Isaiah is that is prophecy, a word from the Lord. I've presented plenty of scriptures, but you don't understand them.


What you fail to understand is the command to keep the Sabbath holy was only given the Hebrew nation – it was not a commandment given to Gentiles and it was never given as a commandment to any Christian in the NT. You are teaching a non-Christian dogma and again the burden is yours to support your non-Christian doctrine with a command from the NT for even one Christian to keep that day holy - this you have also failed to do – do you not have any such support? If you do not then your position remains what it is – outside of the NT and it must be rejected. :)

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 06:43 PM
What you fail to understand is the command to keep the Sabbath holy was only given the Hebrew nation – it was not a commandment given to Gentiles and it was never given as a commandment to any Christian in the NT. You are teaching a non-Christian dogma and again the burden is yours to support your non-Christian doctrine with a command from the NT for even one Christian to keep that day holy - this you have also failed to do – do you not have any such support? If you do not then your position remains what it is – outside of the NT and it must be rejected. :)

Burden? If that's how you see it.

losthorizon
Apr 27th 2008, 06:52 PM
Burden? If that's how you see it.
That's how I see it becuase that is how it is - 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating'. I will understand by your answer that you do not have any scriptural support to place Christians under the bondage of the old Mosaic system that ended with the finished work of Christ on the cross. If you ever think you have found such support for your non-biblical dogma then present it and we can discuss further.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 06:56 PM
That's how I see it becuase that is how it is - 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating'. I will understand by your answer that you do not have any scriptural support to place Christians under the bondage of the old Mosaic system that ended with the finished work of Christ on the cross. If you ever think you have found such support for your non-biblical dogma then present it and we can discuss further.

Like I've said before; if one can't understand the difference between the law, which the Most High didn't write, and the Ten Commandments, it's hard for them to understand. Any sabbath of the Mosaic law was ceremonial.

Naphal
Apr 27th 2008, 07:10 PM
Faith in Jesus is what saves us, but as the scriptures say, faith without works is dead. Keeping the commandments are the works.

Keeping the commandments alone without faith won't save us. That might make us a 'good' person but not a 'saved' person.

I remember Jesus telling His apostles, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel, (the good news of Jesus) AND teach them to observe everything I have taught you.'' He also said, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." and "Only those who do the will of My Father will enter the kingdom of heaven." and "I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it."


I highlighted the most important things you said.

everything I have taught you

My commandments

Not, if you love me keep the ten commandments. He said "my commandments" and what "I have taught you" which was part of the ten commandments and other commandments not found in the law.

Naphal
Apr 27th 2008, 07:18 PM
Like I've said before; if one can't understand the difference between the law, which the Most High didn't write, and the Ten Commandments, it's hard for them to understand. Any sabbath of the Mosaic law was ceremonial.

What do you mean he didn't write it? It was his law that Moses wrote so it's the same as if God wrote it. You make it sound like the law came solely from Moses and not God but that's untrue.

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgements.


All the law came from God and the ten commandments are the first ten laws of the old covenant laws but they are not a special part of the law that wasn't subject to change or fulfillment. People esteem the ten too highly and without just cause. We have commandments in the law of Christ that supercede anything in the old law.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 07:21 PM
What do you mean he didn't write it? It was his law that Moses wrote so it's the same as if God wrote it. You make it sound like the law came solely from Moses and not God but that's untrue.

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgements.


All the law came from God and the ten commandments are the first ten laws of the old covenant laws but they are not a special part of the law that wasn't subject to change or fulfillment. People esteem the ten too highly and without just cause. We have commandments in the law of Christ that supercede anything in the old law.

Once again, God did not write the law. Deut 5:22

losthorizon
Apr 27th 2008, 07:24 PM
Like I've said before; if one can't understand the difference between the law, which the Most High didn't write, and the Ten Commandments, it's hard for them to understand. Any sabbath of the Mosaic law was ceremonial.
Remember those three most important words if one wishes to support non-biblical dogma – scripture – scripture – scripture. Your scriptural support remains missing in action.

Naphal
Apr 27th 2008, 07:27 PM
Once again, God did not write the law. Deut 5:22


Deuteronomy 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

This says he did.

God didn't write most of scripture because God chose to inspire humans to do the writing while he is the author! Literal writing doesn't mean anything when it comes down to it.

All the law was God's law...it was only called Moses' law because he gave the law and handled it. It is called both God's law and Moses' law interchangeably in the OT.

Naphal
Apr 27th 2008, 07:28 PM
Any sabbath of the Mosaic law was ceremonial.

And all ceremonial laws have been fulfilled and completed in Christ and are nailed to the cross.

RogerW
Apr 27th 2008, 07:34 PM
What are the commandments we are to keep to show that we know Him? If it is the seventh day sabbath, doesn't it seem odd that Christ did not plainly state this? What we read instead is a new commandment, that is not a new commandment at all, but one heard from the beginning.

Mt 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mt 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mt 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mt 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Jo 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1Jo 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jo 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1Jo 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

According to the above passages, we see that we know Him when we keep His commandment of love, first toward God and also toward our brothers. In doing this we have fulfilled all the requirements of the Lord. If there were additional requirement to keep the seventh day sabbath, the Lord would certainly have told us this. But instead He says there is no other commandment greater than these, and these are summed up in loving God with all our heart, understanding, soul and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

Mr 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mr 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mr 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Mr 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Mr 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Mr 12:34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Many Blessings,
RW

Johan Jacobs
Apr 27th 2008, 08:05 PM
The ten commandments is the law.Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ,even we have beleived in Christ Jesus,that we might be justified by faith IN Christ,and not by the works of the law,for by the works of the law NO flesh shall be justified. Gal.2:16

Yolande~
Apr 27th 2008, 08:22 PM
The ten commandments is the law.Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ,even we have beleived in Christ Jesus,that we might be justified by faith IN Christ,and not by the works of the law,for by the works of the law NO flesh shall be justified. Gal.2:16

Amen my brother!

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 09:41 PM
Deuteronomy 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

This says he did.

God didn't write most of scripture because God chose to inspire humans to do the writing while he is the author! Literal writing doesn't mean anything when it comes down to it.

All the law was God's law...it was only called Moses' law because he gave the law and handled it. It is called both God's law and Moses' law interchangeably in the OT.

Why does the new testament attribute the giving of the law to angels?
The ten commandments are now the law; they weren't given at the same time, nor where they of the same importance. For all of you who say they are one in the same, if Christ did away with the law, which you say is the ten commandments, are we free to kill, steal, commit adultery?

losthorizon
Apr 27th 2008, 10:21 PM
Why does the new testament attribute the giving of the law to angels?
The ten commandments are now the law; they weren't given at the same time, nor where they of the same importance. For all of you who say they are one in the same, if Christ did away with the law, which you say is the ten commandments, are we free to kill, steal, commit adultery?
Was mankind free to kill, steal, and commit adultery before the giving of the Ten Commandment Law to Moses on Sinai? In the days of Noah was murder contrary to God's law? Noah was never commanded to keep the Sabbath holy - why - because it was only given to the Hebrew people under the Old Covenant and ended at the cross of Christ. Have you found that command yet that requires Christians to go back under the yoke of the Mosaic system?

valleybldr
Apr 27th 2008, 10:58 PM
Have you found that command yet that requires Christians to go back under the yoke of the Mosaic system?
Why did loving God take them out of slavery only to place a "yoke" on them. Sounds a bit strange don't you think? todd

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 11:03 PM
Was mankind free to kill, steal, and commit adultery before the giving of the Ten Commandment Law to Moses on Sinai? In the days of Noah was murder contrary to God's law? Noah was never commanded to keep the Sabbath holy - why - because it was only given to the Hebrew people under the Old Covenant and ended at the cross of Christ. Have you found that command yet that requires Christians to go back under the yoke of the Mosaic system?

Actually, mankind in a way was free to kill, etc(doesn't mean it was right: Romans 5:13/Acts 14:16). You keep mentioning the Mosaic law, like I've said before, and I'll say it once more: if one doesn't understand the difference between the law and God's commandments, they won't understand.

losthorizon
Apr 27th 2008, 11:20 PM
Why did loving God take them out of slavery only to place a "yoke" on them. Sounds a bit strange don't you think? todd
Not strange at all - they were to become God's chosen people from whom the Messiah would come who would be the redeemer of the human race (Jew and Gentile). When the Messiah came God promised to “make a new covenant” with His people unlike the first and He promised to change the old covenant and put His new law within the hearts of His elect and this "new covenant" did not include the command to keep the Sabbath holy. Does the NT command me to keep the Sabbath holy?
"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jeremiah 31: 31-34)

losthorizon
Apr 27th 2008, 11:31 PM
Actually, mankind in a way was free to kill, etc(doesn't mean it was right: Romans 5:13/Acts 14:16). You keep mentioning the Mosaic law, like I've said before, and I'll say it once more: if one doesn't understand the difference between the law and God's commandments, they won't understand.
Don’t fool yourself - murder, adultery, etc have always been sin in God’s eyes and it has been that sin that separates man from his Creator – this has been true from the get-go. Was Noah commanded to keep the Sabbath?


You keep mentioning the Mosaic law, like I've said before, and I'll say it once more: if one doesn't understand the difference between the law and God's commandments, they won't understand.
And therein lies your major problem and you will never understand the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant – you wish to mix and match but the NT is not on your side and you teach error. I am still waiting for the NT command that requires Christians to keep the Sabbath as a matter of salvation. Have you found it yet?

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 11:41 PM
Don’t fool yourself - murder, adultery, etc have always been sin in God’s eyes and it has been that sin that separates man from his Creator – this has been true from the get-go. Was Noah commanded to keep the Sabbath?


And therein lies your major problem and you will never understand the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant – you wish to mix and match but the NT is not on your side and you teach error. I am still waiting for the NT command that requires Christians to keep the Sabbath as a matter of salvation. Have you found it yet?

I never said it was never a sin; it was just never imputed at that time. Putting words in my mouth doesn't make you get your point across.

stillsearchin7
Apr 27th 2008, 11:44 PM
Not strange at all - they were to become God's chosen people from whom the Messiah would come who would be the redeemer of the human race (Jew and Gentile). When the Messiah came God promised to “make a new covenant” with His people unlike the first and He promised to change the old covenant and put His new law within the hearts of His elect and this "new covenant" did not include the command to keep the Sabbath holy. Does the NT command me to keep the Sabbath holy?
"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jeremiah 31: 31-34)

You quoting that scripture contradicts your whole arguement. The verse says " I will make the covenant with the house of Isreal..." Where does it say gentiles? So if you are not an Israelite, that doesn't include you...so what covenant are you abiding by?

losthorizon
Apr 28th 2008, 12:01 AM
You quoting that scripture contradicts your whole arguement. The verse says " I will make the covenant with the house of Isreal..." Where does it say gentiles? So if you are not an Israelite, that doesn't include you...so what covenant are you abiding by?
Your are wrong once again (habitual for you). All Christians - both Jew and Gentile are today - the Israel of God. You need to go back to square one and re-think your error. ;)
For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Gal 6:15-16 (ASV)

stillsearchin7
Apr 28th 2008, 12:08 AM
Your are wrong once again (habitual for you). All Christians - both Jew and Gentile are today - the Israel of God. You need to go back to square one and re-think your error. ;)
For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.


Gal 6:15-16 (ASV)

both Jew and Gentile are todday the Israel of God: I'm glad you said that. That being so, and the Most High said the sabbath is a sign between him and Israel forever, why aren't you keeping it, you being Israel and all?

valleybldr
Apr 28th 2008, 12:20 AM
Not strange at all - they were to become God's chosen people from whom the Messiah would come who would be the redeemer of the human race (Jew and Gentile). When the Messiah came God promised to “make a new covenant” with His people unlike the first and He promised to change the old covenant and put His new law within the hearts of His elect and this "new covenant" did not include the command to keep the Sabbath holy. Does the NT command me to keep the Sabbath holy?
"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jeremiah 31: 31-34) The quote and your commentary don't match. Jeremiah says nothing about a "new law." BTW, what law do you think will be protecting people in the Messiah's Kingdom? todd

Naphal
Apr 28th 2008, 12:30 AM
Why does the new testament attribute the giving of the law to angels?
The ten commandments are now the law; they weren't given at the same time, nor where they of the same importance. For all of you who say they are one in the same, if Christ did away with the law, which you say is the ten commandments, are we free to kill, steal, commit adultery?

The old law is gone but a new one is in it's place which commands against those things. It's all in the new testament of the bible.

losthorizon
Apr 28th 2008, 12:53 AM
both Jew and Gentile are todday the Israel of God: I'm glad you said that. That being so, and the Most High said the sabbath is a sign between him and Israel forever, why aren't you keeping it, you being Israel and all?
I don’t keep the “forever” Sabbath for the same reason I do not keep the “everlasting” circumcision requirement because neither circumcision or Sabbath keeping profit me anything under the law of Christ and they are not commanded for Christians. Forever and everlasting do not always mean forever until the end of time. They were both given to the Hebrew nation only and they lasted forever in the sense of as long as the Old Covenant was valid. Again the Mosaic system (the one you continue to misunderstand) was nailed to the cross and is not binding on Christians today – your error continues. Have you found the missing command to keep the Sabbath that you wrongly bind on Christians? Do you also bind the everlasting covenant of circumcision on the weak in faith? If not why not?
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. Genesis 17:13 (KJV)

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. Galatians 5:2 (KJV)

stillsearchin7
Apr 28th 2008, 01:01 AM
I don’t keep the “forever” Sabbath for the same reason I do not keep the “everlasting” circumcision requirement because neither circumcision or Sabbath keeping profit me anything under the law of Christ and they are not commanded for Christians. Forever and everlasting do not always mean forever until the end of time. They were both given to the Hebrew nation only and they lasted forever in the sense of as long as the Old Covenant was valid. Again the Mosaic system (the one you continue to misunderstand) was nailed to the cross and is not binding on Christians today – your error continues. Have you found the missing command to keep the Sabbath that you wrongly bind on Christians? Do you also bind the everlasting covenant of circumcision on the weak in faith? If not why not?
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. Genesis 17:13 (KJV)



Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. Galatians 5:2 (KJV)

You said yourself you were Israel, and you used that Jeremiah verse out of context. If you'd be willing, answer me this question and I'll show you how you used it wrong, that's if you'd be willing: The Jeremiah verse you pulled, does it apply to you?

losthorizon
Apr 28th 2008, 01:07 AM
The quote and your commentary don't match. Jeremiah says nothing about a "new law."
Todd - I hope you at least understand there was a change in the Levitical priesthood?? If there was a change in the priesthood (and there was) then there of necessity was also a change in the law.
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Hebrews 7:11-12 (KJV)

mcgyver
Apr 28th 2008, 02:40 PM
Like I've said, there's a huge difference between the law and God's Commandments. The Most High wrote the ten, he did not write the law. All throughout the scripture it tells you to keep God's commandments, even in the new testament, after Christ.

I saw this very same premise put forward in a little book called "The Ten Commandments, Twice Removed" (an SDA publication), where the authors carefully built a case to "prove" there was a difference.

The problem is that it is a false premise...a false Dichotomy.

For the Jew, the law was ALL that which was contained in the Torah. Whenever one sees reference to "The Law" in the Bible, it is ALL THE LAW, period. The Book of the Law, The Law of Moses, The Commandments and Ordinances all refer to the entire Torah. When Shaphan read the Book of the Law to Josiah, he didn't just read the Ten Commandments...but the entire Torah. When Paul speaks of being in "bondage under the law" he's speaking of the entire Torah...which contains of course the Ten. To try and interpret and separate the "Law of God" from "The Law of Moses" from a 20th century gentile perspective to justify Sabbath-keeping, or Circumcision, or anything else is an exercise in futility and utterly without merit or basis in the word of God, and to do so negates to a degree the New Covenant written in the Blood of Christ.

To say that God "wrote" the Ten Commandments and did not "write" the law is absolutely unsupported by scripture, no matter how you try to parse it. In fact Exodus 21 begins with God saying: "Now these are the judgments which you shall set before them"...God's voice speaking God's law...not Moses' law.

In fact, look at Deuteronomy 6:1-3

“Now this is the commandment, and these are the statutes and judgments which the LORD your God has commanded to teach you, that you may observe them in the land which you are crossing over to possess, that you may fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. Therefore hear, O Israel, and be careful to observe it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the LORD God of your fathers has promised you—‘a land flowing with milk and honey.’"

I've bolded the applicable sentences...ALL THE LAW (TORAH) IS THE LAW OF GOD! Every single bit of it. Any legitimate OT scholar will tell you the same thing....

The ten commandments written in stone were given by God to His people as a sign and testimony of the COVENANT...that they were now a people under the law, which differentiated and separated them (and still does) from all the gentile nations. That is why the tablets were carried in the Ark of The Covenant...not "The Ark of the Law", or the "Ark of the Commandments"...but "Covenant"...A physical reminder to Israel of the special relationship they had with Adonai.


The ten commandments are now the law; they weren't given at the same time, nor where they of the same importance. For all of you who say they are one in the same, if Christ did away with the law, which you say is the ten commandments, are we free to kill, steal, commit adultery?

An oft repeated "Strawman" (sigh)....simplest analogy I can think of is: If I leave the US and go to live in Canada...I am no longer under the laws of the US...I am now subject to the law of Canada...(with me so far?)...Here then is the question: "Is murder legal in Canada?". Of course not. As a Christian I am no longer under the law contained in the Torah, but under "the law" (for lack of a better term) of Christ. You do realize (I hope) that at least two of the Ten commandments were changed by Christ...Adultery (OT) = physical act. NT = Attitude of the heart. Murder (OT) = physical act NT = Attitude of the heart.

One final thing that I would like to point out here that is a most salient point:

There were in the times of the Apostles a group Jews known as "Judaizers". They went to the gentile churches and taught that these gentile Christians must keep the Law (all of it to include the Ten commandments...no difference to the Jews, remember?). The two things that they taught most heavily were:

Circumcision
Keeping the SabbathThis was the problem with the church in Galatia. Paul (writing under the inspiration and at the direction of the Holy Spirit) said of those who taught such things: "Let them be anathema". No where will you see Paul making any differentiation between the Ten Commandments and the rest of the Law. No where does he say "keep the Sabbath, but you don't have to be circumcised"

So if we as Christians must keep the Sabbath, why then were those who taught this very thing in the early chuches declared "Anathema" by the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul?

This is a point well worth pondering :hmm:

stillsearchin7
Apr 28th 2008, 03:24 PM
1Cor 7:19-right here Paul says circumcision is nothing(which is part of the law)but keeping God's commmandments

Romans 10:4-Right here Paul says Christ is the end of the law(which you all say includes the ten commandments)

Contradiction on Paul's part, or misunderstanding on yours?

mcgyver
Apr 28th 2008, 04:11 PM
Instead of playing "Bible ping-pong", let's put these verses into the proper context and see what happens...I'll start with Romans 10:4 (in context..Romans 10:1-10)

"Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”(that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

The first thing we see, is that in verses 1-4 Paul is specifically addressing Israel (to whom the law and covenant of the law was given), and pointing out that though they have a zeal for God, it is a zeal for the keeping of the Torah...the whole of the law (Vs 3). That they are trying to establish their righteousness through the keeping of the commandments...and in doing so they are missing the righteousness of God that is of Faith. Keeping the commandments and laws of God as contained in the Torah (the book of the law) will NOT make one acceptable to God.

Romans 3:20 says: "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." (Key)

In Verse 4, in saying that Christ is the end of the law, he is in fact saying that the entire purpose of the law was to show us that we could never hope to keep the law, and to point us to Messiah...That it is only through faith in Christ that we can be made righteous, and not by keeping the law.

He re-iterates this in Galatians 2:16: "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."In verses 5-8 there is a direct contrast drawn between the keeping of the law and the righteousness that is through faith in Christ. Pay special attention to verse 8.

In Verses 9-10 is given the requirement for eternal life...you will note that there is no mention of the keeping of ANY of the Laws, by grace through faith alone.

The law is called a "tutor"...Galatians 3:23-25 says: "But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." Here in is contained the purpose of the law...not to bring justification and righteousness (won't happen) but to bring us to Christ. Justification comes only through faith in Christ, otherwise we are negating the work of the Law in bringing us to Him, and instead keeping the law hoping to become acceptable to God.

To put all this in contemporary terms: View the law as a long and winding highway...at the end of the highway is the destination: Jesus Christ. Once one has reached their destination, there is no longer need to travel the highway, is there? And in this, Christ is truly the end of the law.

Now, I've got to take a break for lunch, but when I return I'll address 1 Corinthians 7, and tie it all together. :)

valleybldr
Apr 28th 2008, 04:13 PM
Todd - I hope you at least understand there was a change in the Levitical priesthood?? If there was a change in the priesthood (and there was) then there of necessity was also a change in the law.
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Hebrews 7:11-12 (KJV) Hmm, priesthood....law. Wonder what law he is talking about? todd

valleybldr
Apr 28th 2008, 04:15 PM
1Cor 7:19-right here Paul says circumcision is nothing(which is part of the law)but keeping God's commmandments

Romans 10:4-Right here Paul says Christ is the end of the law(which you all say includes the ten commandments)

Contradiction on Paul's part, or misunderstanding on yours?
I think someone needs to go and do a search of how the GK word rendered "end" is used in other passages. todd

stillsearchin7
Apr 28th 2008, 04:35 PM
I think someone needs to go and do a search of how the GK word rendered "end" is used in other passages. todd

I'm not speaking of other passages. Seeing you feel i need to so do, tell me what end means in that verse.

valleybldr
Apr 28th 2008, 04:48 PM
I'm not speaking of other passages. Seeing you feel i need to so do, tell me what end means in that verse. The law is a means to an end. Jesus is the end. He has filled it full. He is "the limit" the ultimate expression. todd

John146
Apr 28th 2008, 04:59 PM
I hear a lot of people say that Christ is our sabbath, far too many actually, but is there a scripture that tells us that Christ is our sabbath?

Do you know that Christ and His disciples worked on the sabbath, thereby breaking the sabbath law? Shouldn't we follow His example?

23And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. 24And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
25And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
26How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. - Mark 2:23-28

Neither Jesus nor the disciples followed the Sabbath laws as you think we should do today. They worked on the Sabbath. So, clearly, something changed when Christ came, in regards to the Sabbath day. You are clearly mistaken, as the Pharisees were back then, if you think we have to observe the sabbath the way they used to back before Christ came. We observe the Sabbath now by remembering the death and sacrifice of the Lord of the sabbath. He is our sabbath rest. You're hearing that a lot because it's the truth.

mcgyver
Apr 28th 2008, 05:02 PM
I'm not speaking of other passages. Seeing you feel i need to so do, tell me what end means in that verse.

telos


Telos: As used in this passage: Goal, conclusion, termination, result, or purpose


(Sources: Strong's concordance, Trench: Synonyms of the Greek NT, Textus Receptus- Stephanus)

valleybldr
Apr 28th 2008, 05:06 PM
Neither Jesus nor the disciples followed the Sabbath laws as you think we should do today. They worked on the Sabbath. So, clearly, something changed when Christ came, in regards to the Sabbath day. Many of the "Sabbath laws" in question were Jewish traditions not the written in the Word of God. Jesus was always trying to get people to see the meaning behind the law not the cold rote following of the letter or man's interpetations. Since He had authored the Law He had every right to defend it as He did. He was not a Sabbath breaker (as defined by Torah) as some contend. todd

mcgyver
Apr 28th 2008, 05:14 PM
Many of the "Sabbath laws" in question were Jewish traditions not the written in the Word of God. Jesus was always trying to get people to see the meaning behind the law not the cold rote following of the letter or man's interpetations. Since He had authored the Law He had every right to defend it as He did. He was not a Sabbath breaker (as defined by Torah) as some contend. todd

Agreed.....:)......................

John146
Apr 28th 2008, 05:14 PM
Many of the "Sabbath laws" in question were Jewish traditions not the written in the Word of God. Jesus was always trying to get people to see the meaning behind the law not the cold rote following of the letter or man's interpetations. Since He had authored the Law He had every right to defend it as He did. He was not a Sabbath breaker (as defined by Torah) as some contend. todd

Did Jesus follow this:

10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: - Exodus 20:10

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 05:34 PM
Did Jesus follow this:

10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: - Exodus 20:10

I think it's safe to say that Jesus didn't break any command. But before you jump out with some good ole NT verses that we all know, keep in mind that showing mercy was never against the law. Jesus himself taught that if an ox was in the ditch on the sabbath one could get him out. If you were hungry on the sabbath, you could glean enough to eat.

John146
Apr 28th 2008, 05:55 PM
I think it's safe to say that Jesus didn't break any command. But before you jump out with some good ole NT verses that we all know, keep in mind that showing mercy was never against the law. Jesus himself taught that if an ox was in the ditch on the sabbath one could get him out. If you were hungry on the sabbath, you could glean enough to eat.

What is your point? Do you think we have to observe the sabbath on Saturday? If so, what does that mean? How does one do so? If there are exceptions to the rule, what are those exceptions? Just the ones related to being hungry or helping an ox out of a ditch? Also, the sabbath was given specifically to the people of Israel (Exodus 31:16). Are you an Israelite?

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 05:59 PM
What is your point? Do you think we have to observe the sabbath on Saturday? If so, what does that mean? How does one do so? If there are exceptions to the rule, what are those exceptions? Just the ones related to being hungry or helping an ox out of a ditch? Also, the sabbath was given specifically to the people of Israel (Exodus 31:16). Are you an Israelite?

My point is that Jesus didn't break any OT laws. He fulfilled them entirely and completely.

valleybldr
Apr 28th 2008, 06:03 PM
What is your point? Do you think we have to observe the sabbath on Saturday? If so, what does that mean? How does one do so? If there are exceptions to the rule, what are those exceptions? Just the ones related to being hungry or helping an ox out of a ditch? Also, the sabbath was given specifically to the people of Israel (Exodus 31:16). Are you an Israelite? Your right. As Gentiles we should ignore divine law and make up our own. Let's have a Gentile worship day like say ah.....Sunday. What law can we make up next? This is fun...your turn. Any Gentile annual holidays we remake into "Christian" ones? todd

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 06:08 PM
Your right. As Gentiles we should ignore divine law and make up our own. Let's have a Gentile worship day like say ah.....Sunday. What law can we make up next? This is fun...your turn. Any Gentile annual holidays we remake into "Christian" ones? todd

Was that sarcasm? :cool:

The early church met every day. Pick a day for worship. All of them are fantastic for worshiping God.

John146
Apr 28th 2008, 06:15 PM
My point is that Jesus didn't break any OT laws. He fulfilled them entirely and completely.

I didn't say He broke any OT laws. He fulfilled them and He also explained the real meaning of them, which isn't clear from the OT text alone. Such as committing adultery or murder. Until He came, who knew that lusting after a woman was the same as committing adultery? Who knew that hating someone is the same as murder (1 John 3:15)?

valleybldr
Apr 28th 2008, 06:15 PM
Was that sarcasm? :cool:

The early church met every day. Pick a day for worship. All of them are fantastic for worshiping God. That's not what we are talking about. The early church started on a Holy Day (Pentecost). The biblical record and history shows they were meeting on Shabbats but over time "the church" turned towards Sunday (the preferred day in the Roman world). It might be helpful to do some research on how anti-Semetic many of the church father's were. The move from Sabbath to Sunday was fueled by racial animosity. The Catholics take great pride in how they conquered paganism but some of think they just repackaged it. todd

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 06:20 PM
That's not what we are talking about. The early church started on a Holy Day (Pentecost). The biblical record and history shows they were meeting on Shabbats but over time "the church" turned towards Sunday (the preferred day in the Roman world). It might be helpful to do some research on how anti-Semetic many of the church father's were. The move from Sabbath to Sunday was fueled by racial animosity. The Catholics take great pride in how they conquered paganism but some of think they just repackaged it. todd

How about this passage?

Acts 20:7-12

7 And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight. 8 And there were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered together. 9 And there was a certain young man named Eutychus sitting on the window sill, sinking into a deep sleep; and as Paul kept on talking, he was overcome by sleep and fell down from the third floor, and was picked up dead. 10 But Paul went down and fell upon him and after embracing him, he said, "Do not be troubled, for his life is in him." 11 And when he had gone back up, and had broken the bread and eaten, he talked with them a long while, until daybreak, and so departed. 12 And they took away the boy alive, and were greatly comforted.
NASB

Paul was clearly preaching a message on the first day of the week.

No doubt many in the "church" have been anti-semetic. But meeting on Sunday has happened for a long, long time. If Paul thought it appropriate to preach on Sunday, shoot, I might as well too. But then, he preached on other days of the week too. I will as well.

John146
Apr 28th 2008, 06:22 PM
Your right. As Gentiles we should ignore divine law and make up our own. Let's have a Gentile worship day like say ah.....Sunday. What law can we make up next? This is fun...your turn. Any Gentile annual holidays we remake into "Christian" ones? todd

Where is the scripture that says Gentiles are supposed to observe the sabbath on Saturday? I observe the sabbath every day. To me, observing the sabbath means resting in Christ and remembering His death and sacrifice.

16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. - Col 2:16-17

mcgyver
Apr 28th 2008, 06:42 PM
1Cor 7:19-right here Paul says circumcision is nothing(which is part of the law)but keeping God's commmandments

Romans 10:4-Right here Paul says Christ is the end of the law(which you all say includes the ten commandments)

Contradiction on Paul's part, or misunderstanding on yours?

In post # 104 I addressed the passage in Romans, and as promised I want now to address the passage in 1 Corinthians 7:19

First of all, it is vital to understand what the "commandments" spoken of in this passage are in reference to. The reason that I say this, is that Paul here tells the Corinthian church to keep the "commandments"; but yet when writing to the Ephesians he says (speaking of Christ):

"having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace..." (Eph 2:15)

In Romans 8:2 he says: "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." Remember that as a trained Rabbinical scholar, when Paul spoke of the law (of sin and death), he was referring to the entire body of the Law as contained in the Torah, not limiting nor excluding the Ten Commandments.

Paul again in Galatians 2 says:

"But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."

So...we have a dilemma, either Paul is a hypocrite, or the Holy Spirit is confused....or there is another meaning to "Commandments" in 1 Cor. 7.

Remember that the church in Corinth was a deeply divided church with each faction "warring" against the other. In the meantime, sin was raging within the church and love was missing! (Remember chapter 13?)

So what then were the Commandments spoke of by Paul?

"Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” Matt 22:37-41


"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another." John 13:34


These are the commandments that fit within the context of Paul's writing to the church at Corinth from Chapter 4 all the way through....

Once again, this really has nothing to do with keeping the Sabbath, circumcision, or anything of the like....

Partaker of Christ
Apr 28th 2008, 08:01 PM
You're referring to Acts 15:24 if I'm not mistaken; that verse doesn't mean they were exempted from the sabbath, which is a commandment of the Most High, they were exempted from the law; but one will not be able to understand that if they don't know the difference between the law and God's commandments.

Read Isaiah 56, and you'll see that other nations should keep the sabbath.
(And please don't say"that's the old testament, so it doesn't matter.")

The Lord is our Sabbath, and in Him we rest and cease from all our works.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said, As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works;
Heb 4:5 and in this place again, They shall not enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some should enter thereinto, and they to whom the good tidings were before preached failed to enter in because of disobedience,
Heb 4:7 he again defineth a certain day, saying in David, after so long a time, Today, as it hath been before said, Today if ye shall hear his voice, Harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience.

valleybldr
Apr 28th 2008, 09:02 PM
How about this passage?

Acts 20:7-12

7 And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight. 8 And there were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered together. 9 And there was a certain young man named Eutychus sitting on the window sill, sinking into a deep sleep; and as Paul kept on talking, he was overcome by sleep and fell down from the third floor, and was picked up dead. 10 But Paul went down and fell upon him and after embracing him, he said, "Do not be troubled, for his life is in him." 11 And when he had gone back up, and had broken the bread and eaten, he talked with them a long while, until daybreak, and so departed. 12 And they took away the boy alive, and were greatly comforted.
NASB

But meeting on Sunday has happened for a long, long time. If Paul thought it appropriate to preach on Sunday, shoot, I might as well too. But then, he preached on other days of the week too. I will as well. Look up the GK. It was Saturday night (the first day of the week) which is to be expected after having been together all day and having someone special in town who was leaving. Of course you can preach on whatever day you want but that's not the issue here. todd

valleybldr
Apr 28th 2008, 09:04 PM
Where is the scripture that says Gentiles are supposed to observe the sabbath on Saturday? I observe the sabbath every day. To me, observing the sabbath means resting in Christ and remembering His death and sacrifice.

16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. - Col 2:16-17 I believe the Scripture you quote proves the exact opposite you do but by all means do rest in the Lord each and every day. We should do no less. todd

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 09:34 PM
Look up the GK. It was Saturday night (the first day of the week) which is to be expected after having been together all day and having someone special in town who was leaving. Of course you can preach on whatever day you want but that's not the issue here. todd

You are right. But the point remains, it appeared to me that they gathered after the Sabbath was over. Then we also have Paul's command to take up an offering on the first day of the week.

But even more, we have Romans 14.

Rom 14:5-6
5 One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord,
NASB

So, if one wants to observe Saturday/Sabbath unto the Lord, praise God! If one wishes to observe Sunday unto the Lord, praise God! For it is unto the Lord one does so. No one is my servant or your servant. If they choose to honor one day above another unto God, that is fine according to Romans 14.

valleybldr
Apr 28th 2008, 09:58 PM
You are right. But the point remains, it appeared to me that they gathered after the Sabbath was over. Then we also have Paul's command to take up an offering on the first day of the week.

But even more, we have Romans 14.

Rom 14:5-6
5 One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord,
NASB

So, if one wants to observe Saturday/Sabbath unto the Lord, praise God! If one wishes to observe Sunday unto the Lord, praise God! For it is unto the Lord one does so. No one is my servant or your servant. If they choose to honor one day above another unto God, that is fine according to Romans 14. Look at the context of Romans 14. It has nothing to do with the Sabbath (unless that's your application). todd

valleybldr
Apr 28th 2008, 10:01 PM
You are right. But the point remains, it appeared to me that they gathered after the Sabbath was over. Then we also have Paul's command to take up an offering on the first day of the week.

He was leaving. This has nothing to do with setting a new day of corporate worship. If the day had been changed you would have plenty of scriptures dealing with the overwhelming turmoil such a move would have made. Instead there are none because....they continued to meet on the Sabbath. todd

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 10:11 PM
He was leaving. This has nothing to do with setting a new day of corporate worship. If the day had been changed you would have plenty of scriptures dealing with the overwhelming turmoil such a move would have made. Instead there are none because....they continued to meet on the Sabbath. todd

They met every day of the week. Any day to meet is fine. If one wants to meet on the Sabbath, excellent! If one wants to meet on the first day of the week, excellent. Shoot, meet on Tuesday if you want to. No problem there either.

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 10:15 PM
Look at the context of Romans 14. It has nothing to do with the Sabbath (unless that's your application). todd

He didn't just willy nilly throw the thing in there about days in amongst food. It's there for a purpose. So observe a day unto the Lord if you wish. If all days are the same, that's OK too.

Rom 14:5-9
5 One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
NASB

There's no need for Paul to tell anyone to honor one day above another because the people aren't Paul's. However, he will tell them when there is sin involved! Yet, he said nothing about sin in this passage all the while saying that each needs to be assured in his mind that what he is doing is unto the Lord.

One thing is for sure, we need to keep the Sabbath according to the Spirit of the Law. Let us enter into Canaan and find rest spiritually. We should all cease from our own words, which are dead, and do only the works of the Father.

valleybldr
Apr 28th 2008, 10:15 PM
They met every day of the week. Any day to meet is fine. If one wants to meet on the Sabbath, excellent! If one wants to meet on the first day of the week, excellent. Shoot, meet on Tuesday if you want to. No problem there either. We do have the biblical narrative and history that can be consulted but they don't match your revisionist take. todd

valleybldr
Apr 28th 2008, 10:18 PM
There's no need for Paul to tell anyone to honor one day above another because the people aren't Paul's. However, he will tell them when there is sin involved! Yet, he said nothing about sin in this passage all the while saying that each needs to be assured in his mind that what he is doing is unto the Lord. Millions of Christians are "assurred in [their] own mind" about what is right. They disagree on critical points and they can't all be right. todd

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 10:21 PM
We do have the biblical narrative and history that can be consulted but they don't match your revisionist take. todd

Romans 14 does. ;) As does Acts.

Acts 19:8-10

8 And he entered the synagogue and continued speaking out boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God. 9 But when some were becoming hardened and disobedient, speaking evil of the Way before the multitude, he withdrew from them and took away the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus. 10 And this took place for two years, so that all who lived in Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.
NASB

But even more interesting.

Acts 2:46-47
46 And day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, 47 praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.
NASB

These folks met every day in the temple. No reason we can't do the same thing. Pick a day. Shoot, pick all of them.

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 10:23 PM
Millions of Christians are "assurred in [their] own mind" about what is right. They disagree on critical points and they can't all be right. todd

Might want to take it up with Paul. He wrote it, not me. Still there though. He said not to judge them in what they were doing. I don't see an exclusion there for the sabbath in Romans 14.