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wombat
Apr 27th 2008, 05:45 AM
Hello everyone! I just wanted to ask you two questions related to the topic of Noah and Lot and Christ's return. Luke 17 speaks about Jesus' return being at a time much like the days of Noah and also Lot. In this reference, Jesus speaks of people just going about their daily business, unaware that judgment is coming. And we know that the world in Noah's day was so filled by wickedness that God sent the flood as judgment, and in Lot's day the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was so great that God destroyed those cities. In II Peter 2:5-9 these days are also referenced, and it is mentioned that Noah and his family were saved, and Lot was saved, because they were righteous.

The first question is whether you feel as I do that Christ's return must be very close because of the tremendous rise of evil in the world within the span of our lifetimes. II Peter says that Lot was sick of the immorality around him, and he was distressed by the evil he saw and heard day after day. Sometimes I feel very much like Lot. My heart gets really weighed down sometimes because everywhere I look, my eyes and ears are assaulted by the sensual images that are increasingly prevalent on TV and in shopping mall window displays, the sexual jokes and crude language I hear on radio or TV, etc. Don't get me wrong--I really don't watch much TV because I refuse to listen to immorality, but it seems like even the commercials are bad enough now. Even the daily news seems to do its best to provide footage of things that give me a dirty feeling that I need to ask Jesus constantly to wash away for me. Our nation's attempts at drowning out all reference to God and Jesus are another example. There just seems to be so much immorality rising around us that I am wondering if the time is right for Jesus' return and the judment of the world.

The second question is whether you feel as I do that the saving of Noah and Lot from the judgments is a picture of how Christians will be saved from the Tribulation. Now, I understand that some of us are pre-Tribbers and some are not. That's okay by me. I'm personally not quite sure where I stand on that issue yet, but I am trying to learn what the Bible has to say about it, and I'd love to get some insight about the Noah/Lot/Jesus' return issue.

Thank you all for any insights you might provide.

Diggindeeper
Apr 27th 2008, 06:04 AM
Wombat, in my opinion, you are very smart to want want to know the signifigance of our Lord using Noah and Lot as examples of how things will be! I say why not just allow the Lord Jesus Christ himself answer? Among other scriptures, we can look at this in Luke. I've colored some main points in red, for clarity.

Luke 17;20-30
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


You see, the wicked were destroyed! Both Noah and Lot were still here, on earth, but escaped the wrath of God! They were here the whole time. But unharmed. Noah and Lot were not TAKEN anywhere.

No second chances remained for the other people!

ScottJohnson
Apr 27th 2008, 03:34 PM
The first question is whether you feel as I do that Christ's return must be very close because of the tremendous rise of evil in the world within the span of our lifetimes. II Peter says that Lot was sick of the immorality around him, and he was distressed by the evil he saw and heard day after day. Sometimes I feel very much like Lot. My heart gets really weighed down sometimes because everywhere I look, my eyes and ears are assaulted by the sensual images that are increasingly prevalent on TV and in shopping mall window displays, the sexual jokes and crude language I hear on radio or TV, etc. Don't get me wrong--I really don't watch much TV because I refuse to listen to immorality, but it seems like even the commercials are bad enough now. Even the daily news seems to do its best to provide footage of things that give me a dirty feeling that I need to ask Jesus constantly to wash away for me. Our nation's attempts at drowning out all reference to God and Jesus are another example. There just seems to be so much immorality rising around us that I am wondering if the time is right for Jesus' return and the judment of the world.

Hi Wombat, there's no doubt that evil has been escalating for quite some time now. I'm not so sure though if that alone is any indication that Christ's return is with in our grasp.

Jesus questioned as to whether he would find faith on Earth at all at His return. Luke 18:8. Paul stated in 2 Thes 2:3 that day would not come unless first comes the falling away. So my theory for the moment would be that evil will continue to grow, but possibly because as more and more people fall away from the faith, there will be less and less people adhering to biblical principles.

At this point nations such as Australia and the U.S. seem to contain a fairly strong Christian contingent. But throughout much of Europe we're beginning to see a great falling away from the faith.



The second question is whether you feel as I do that the saving of Noah and Lot from the judgments is a picture of how Christians will be saved from the Tribulation. Now, I understand that some of us are pre-Tribbers and some are not. That's okay by me. I'm personally not quite sure where I stand on that issue yet, but I am trying to learn what the Bible has to say about it, and I'd love to get some insight about the Noah/Lot/Jesus' return issue.

I don't feel that the Noah and Lot represent a picture of how people will be saved from a tribulation. I believe that Jesus referenced these two events to point out the finality of the judgment that will take place upon His return. It has nothing to do with some so called future great tribulation, it has to do with the impending judgment of all mankind on the last day. See Matt 13:37-43; 2 Pet 3:2-13.

As I understand it, once Jesus returns, that's it, game over. Everyone on the face of the Earth will have had their opportunity and judgment will be passed based on how we responded to that opportunity.

Anyway, that's my opinion. That and seven bucks will get you some kind of flavored coffee at starbucks.

TexasBeliever
Apr 27th 2008, 04:01 PM
Hello :wave:

Yes, I do believe that the Lord's coming will be during this generation.

I also see that unbelievers will be going about their normal routines: marrying and giving in marriage, buying and selling. And since they are not aware of prophecy, the Day of the Lord's wrath will take them by surprise.

But for believers, they won't be living a 'normal' life. They will be hiding and being persecuted by unbelievers and the antichrist and won't be able to buy or sell. And since they are aware of the times they are living in and know that the Lord's return is near, won't be taken by surprise.
They will be ready and prepared to meet the Lord when He comes to rapture/remove them from the earth before He unleashes His wrath upon it.

ShirleyFord
Apr 27th 2008, 05:14 PM
Hello :wave:

Yes, I do believe that the Lord's coming will be during this generation.

I also see that unbelievers will be going about their normal routines: marrying and giving in marriage, buying and selling. And since they are not aware of prophecy, the Day of the Lord's wrath will take them by surprise.

But for believers, they won't be living a 'normal' life. They will be hiding and being persecuted by unbelievers and the antichrist and won't be able to buy or sell. And since they are aware of the times they are living in and know that the Lord's return is near, won't be taken by surprise.
They will be ready and prepared to meet the Lord when He comes to rapture/remove them from the earth before He unleashes His wrath upon it.

I don't know where you get the idea that believers will be running and hiding, trying to escape the persections of unbelievers worshipping and following the antichrist/beastly world system.

Don't sound much to me that the believers you describe would be very ready and prepared to meet the Lord when He comes. Where is their faith in Christ? They are filled with great fear running for their lives, hiding out with their every thought on antichrist and his people and somehow finding natural safety and a moment of peace and rest instead of on Jesus Christ and His absolute peace that passes all understanding and rest.


Shirley

The Prodigal Son
Apr 27th 2008, 05:37 PM
In the context of the end of the world and Noah [2Pe 3:6], God tells the true believers the following:


But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

In Noah's day, God told Noah that he would destroy the world in seven days:


For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

How long ago was the flood? Somewhere around 7,000 ago? Someone smarter than me could answer that...

divaD
Apr 27th 2008, 06:16 PM
The second question is whether you feel as I do that the saving of Noah and Lot from the judgments is a picture of how
Christians will be saved from the Tribulation.


The way I see it, Noah and Lot weren't saved from tribulation, they were saved from the wrath of God. Here's the way I see the day of the Lord. It will be a day of salvation and wrath combined. Just like in the days of Noah when the floods came.
That was the wrath of God upon the wicked. Noah and all those on the ark, that was the salvation of God. Take note, these happened together, one group was saved, the other group was lost. Jesus said it will be like in the days of Noah when He returns. Since the above is one part of how it was like in the days of Noah, then it will be like this when Jesus returns. Instead of one group being saved by way of the ark, they will literally be saved by Christ Himself, and instead of the other group being destroyed by water, this time it will be by fire.


1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.



These verses are meant to be read as one thought. Paul never changed the subject in Ch 5 like some suggest. He is clearly talking about the day of the Lord here. Notice what he says in verse 9 of Ch 5. He's comforting those by telling them that when Christ returns to unleash His wrath on the wicked, those that are His at His coming are not appointed to His wrath, but will obtain salvation thru Christ. Verse 9, among others, clearly tells me that the day of the Lord will be both a day of salvation, and a day of wrath, just like it was when the floods came in Noah's day.

I would like to stress another thought that I feel many overlook. Even tho Noah was safe in the ark, he still had to keep trusting God to keep him safe until it was over. Something to think about..

ShirleyFord
Apr 27th 2008, 06:53 PM
The way I see it, Noah and Lot weren't saved from tribulation, they were saved from the wrath of God. Here's the way I see the day of the Lord. It will be a day of salvation and wrath combined. Just like in the days of Noah when the floods came.

That was the wrath of God upon the wicked. Noah and all those on the ark, that was the salvation of God. Take note, these happened together, one group was saved, the other group was lost. Jesus said it will be like in the days of Noah when He returns. Since the above is one part of how it was like in the days of Noah, then it will be like this when Jesus returns. Instead of one group being saved by way of the ark, they will literally be saved by Christ Himself, and instead of the other group being destroyed by water, this time it will be by fire.



I agree that Noah was physically saved from God's wrath in the ark. But Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord 120 years before and not when he finished building the ark and entered into it.

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Noah had faith to believe God when He commanded him to build an ark and became heir of the righteousness.

He also was a preacher of righteousness condemning the world

2 Pet 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Sounds like Noah was saved by grace through faith looking ahead to the cross the same way that we are saved today looking back with the eye of faith to the cross.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:



Shirley

TexasBeliever
Apr 27th 2008, 09:11 PM
I don't know where you get the idea that believers will be running and hiding, trying to escape the persections of unbelievers worshipping and following the antichrist/beastly world system.

Don't sound much to me that the believers you describe would be very ready and prepared to meet the Lord when He comes. Where is their faith in Christ? They are filled with great fear running for their lives, hiding out with their every thought on antichrist and his people and somehow finding natural safety and a moment of peace and rest instead of on Jesus Christ and His absolute peace that passes all understanding and rest.


Shirley
I was asked and I answered.
Rev 6 "How long will it be before You judge the earth and avenge our blood among the inhabitants of the earth? ....they were told to be patient a little while longer until the quota of their fellow servants and brothers to be slain as they had been was filled." Rev 13 "For 42 months the beast was allowed to wage war on the saints and overcome them."

ShirleyFord
Apr 27th 2008, 10:57 PM
I was asked and I answered.
Rev 6 "How long will it be before You judge the earth and avenge our blood among the inhabitants of the earth? ....they were told to be patient a little while longer until the quota of their fellow servants and brothers to be slain as they had been was filled." Rev 13 "For 42 months the beast was allowed to wage war on the saints and overcome them."

That's fine Tex. And you have every right to your opinion.

But you seemed to be implying that those who were expecting to be raptured before the GT would not be ready for what lay ahead for them. And the GT would take them by surprise since they hadn't planned ahead since they had no plans to still be here during that time.

Then when you started talking about believers, who you seemed to be implying were post-trib, on the run, hiding out, trying to escape the wrath of the antichrist, it struck me that if you were describing post-trib believers, they wouldn't be any more prepared to face the GT than pretribbers were.

When we look closely at Rev. 13, we don't find the believers running for their lives, hiding out, trying to keep the beast from finding them. They refused to worship the devil, the first beast, the second beast and the image of the beast and they were killed.

But in all of that horrible tribulation of wrath, they they overcame the devil, the beast and all of the unsaved wicked.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Those you referenced in Rev 6 are physically dead but their soul/spirit is safely in heaven. Notice why they were killed:

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


Jesus said this in Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

One thing that strikes me about the believers in the NT. Nothing except physical death stopped them from spreading the gospel regardless of their persecutions and lack of even the necessities of life with the threat of being killed hanging over them every day of their lives.

Paul had it all before he met Jesus on the Damascus Rd.

Phil 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,


Look at the things Paul suffered after he was saved:

1 Cor 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;

12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.


2 Cor 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.


Paul certainly knew in whom he believed. And he could speak confidently of his Lord's faithfulness when he said in Romans 8, "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (vs 35-39)


(Excuse me while I take a praise break)

divaD
Apr 28th 2008, 12:34 AM
That's fine Tex. And you have every right to your opinion.

But you seemed to be implying that those who were expecting to be raptured before the GT would not be ready for what lay ahead for them. And the GT would take them by surprise since they hadn't planned ahead since they had no plans to still be here during that time.

Then when you started talking about believers, who you seemed to be implying were post-trib, on the run, hiding out, trying to escape the wrath of the antichrist, it struck me that if you were describing post-trib believers, they wouldn't be any more prepared to face the GT than pretribbers were.

When we look closely at Rev. 13, we don't find the believers running for their lives, hiding out, trying to keep the beast from finding them. They refused to worship the devil, the first beast, the second beast and the image of the beast and they were killed.

But in all of that horrible tribulation of wrath, they they overcame the devil, the beast and all of the unsaved wicked.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Those you referenced in Rev 6 are physically dead but their soul/spirit is safely in heaven. Notice why they were killed:

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


Jesus said this in Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

One thing that strikes me about the believers in the NT. Nothing except physical death stopped them from spreading the gospel regardless of their persecutions and lack of even the necessities of life with the threat of being killed hanging over them every day of their lives.

Paul had it all before he met Jesus on the Damascus Rd.

Phil 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,


Look at the things Paul suffered after he was saved:

1 Cor 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;

12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.


2 Cor 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.


Paul certainly knew in whom he believed. And he could speak confidently of his Lord's faithfulness when he said in Romans 8, "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (vs 35-39)


(Excuse me while I take a praise break)




ShirleyFord, I kind of feel TexasBeliever has somewhat of a legit point about the hiding out and such. If the trib were to last sev yrs, then how will those that are still alive at Christ's return still be alive, esp if they can't buy or sell, etc? The Bible also tells us that those that refuse to worship the beast and it's image will be killed. So how do we explain the ones that are still alive when Christ returns? Why weren't they killed? Could it be perhaps that they were hiding? I'm not saying that's the answer, but what else makes sense?

Diggindeeper
Apr 28th 2008, 12:50 AM
ShirleyFord, I kind of feel TexasBeliever has somewhat of a legit point about the hiding out and such. If the trib were to last sev yrs, then how will those that are still alive at Christ's return still be alive, esp if they can't buy or sell, etc? The Bible also tells us that those that refuse to worship the beast and it's image will be killed. So how do we explain the ones that are still alive when Christ returns? Why weren't they killed? Could it be perhaps that they were hiding? I'm not saying that's the answer, but what else makes sense?

DivaD, perhaps a good place to start would be for you to tell us where you find a seven year tribulation in scripture. Where is it in the Bible that says there is a 7 year tribulation?

divaD
Apr 28th 2008, 01:14 AM
DivaD, perhaps a good place to start would be for you to tell us where you find a seven year tribulation in scripture. Where is it in the Bible that says there is a 7 year tribulation?



Diggindeeper, if you read my post, I made no mention of seven years. I did say sev years, meaning several yrs. I can now see where I forgot to put the period after sev. I apologize if you took my abbreviation to mean seven instead of several. I specifically made a point to make it several years, since the Bible doesn't specify how long the trib actually is.

Diggindeeper
Apr 28th 2008, 01:24 AM
You are so right, diva!

But, then look at this.


According to tradition, all of the twelve apostles died as martyrs during the first century A.D. Only St. John, the writer of the Gospel with his name and the Book of Revelation died a natural death. It is believed he died near the year 100 A.D.
The possible causes of death of each of the Twelve Apostles:

Andrew: Martyrdom by crucifixion (bound, not nailed, to a cross).
Bartholomew (Often identified with Nathaniel in the New Testament): Martyrdom by being either 1. Beheaded, or 2. Flayed alive and crucified, head downward.
James the Greater: Martyrdom by being beheaded or stabbed with a sword.
James the Lesser: Martyrdom by being thrown from a pinnacle of the Temple at Jerusalem , then stoned and beaten with clubs.
John: Died of old age.
Jude (Often identified with Thaddeus in the New Testament): Martyrdom by being beaten to death with a club.
Judas: Suicide.
Matthew: Martyrdom by being burned, stoned, or beheaded.
Peter: Martyrdom by crucifixion at Rome with his head downwards.
Philip: Martyrdom.
Simon: Martyrdom by crucifixion or being sawn in half.
Thomas: Martyrdom by being stabbed with a spear.And to this very day, Christians are killed, just because they are Christ's followers. How much worse tribualtion could there possibly be?

We could be alive and remain, until his (one) second (and last) coming.

ShirleyFord
Apr 28th 2008, 01:36 AM
ShirleyFord, I kind of feel TexasBeliever has somewhat of a legit point about the hiding out and such. If the trib were to last sev yrs, then how will those that are still alive at Christ's return still be alive, esp if they can't buy or sell, etc? The Bible also tells us that those that refuse to worship the beast and it's image will be killed. So how do we explain the ones that are still alive when Christ returns? Why weren't they killed? Could it be perhaps that they were hiding? I'm not saying that's the answer, but what else makes sense?

Scripture makes sense when we accept it for what it literally says, I have finally learned. 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 says that some believers will be alive at the Coming of Christ. Yet Rev 13:15 says:

"...and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

With you Tex and others saying that believers will be on the run for their very lives, hiding out from the antichrist reminds me of when I was pretrib and the several different movies I saw in different Churches of those who were left behind to face the antichrist after the Rapture of the Church so they wouldn't be forced to take the motb.

While each of the movies had different titles, characters, actors and story lines, they all were basically the same. And the pastors used them as evangelistic tools to get put such fear in the unsaved by showing them what would happen to them if they missed the Rapture.

The people left behind were always running and screaming and sweating and dirty, their clothes full of holes and mostly rags, just trying to stay alive and away from antichrist and his wrath on them and his forcing his mark on them and they would be eternally lost spending eternity in the lake of fire. They were always looking for someone to turn to to help them. Always looking for someplace to hide. But they finally found that there was no one to turn to who would help them and no place to hide.

Even those who had plenty of money before and had plenty of food stored up and all kinds of beautiful vacation homes on beautiful lakes and beaches found out that none of these things could help them then. And neither could they depend on each other for help or even moral support. It soon became each family trying to take care of his own and no one else. And then each individual.

But nowhere in Revelation or anywhere else in the Bible do we find scenes like that. So I can't possibly agree that since 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 clearly proves that there will be believers left alive at Christ's Coming that they survived the antichrist by running and hiding and being prepared with stored up food and supplies to reconcile those Scriptures with Rev 13. It is simply not there. And I don't have liberty to add it.

The only explanation that I have from the Bible is that Jesus returns before all of the believers are killed and rescues them and destroys the beast and all of his followers.

I believe that we find this explanation in 2 Thess 1 and 2.

I believe the man of sin is the same as the beast in Rev 13. And we see what happens to him when Jesus returns.


Shirley

cwb
Apr 28th 2008, 01:37 AM
You are so right, diva!

But, then look at this.


According to tradition, all of the twelve apostles died as martyrs during the first century A.D. Only St. John, the writer of the Gospel with his name and the Book of Revelation died a natural death. It is believed he died near the year 100 A.D.
The possible causes of death of each of the Twelve Apostles:

Andrew: Martyrdom by crucifixion (bound, not nailed, to a cross).
Bartholomew (Often identified with Nathaniel in the New Testament): Martyrdom by being either 1. Beheaded, or 2. Flayed alive and crucified, head downward.
James the Greater: Martyrdom by being beheaded or stabbed with a sword.
James the Lesser: Martyrdom by being thrown from a pinnacle of the Temple at Jerusalem , then stoned and beaten with clubs.
John: Died of old age.
Jude (Often identified with Thaddeus in the New Testament): Martyrdom by being beaten to death with a club.
Judas: Suicide.
Matthew: Martyrdom by being burned, stoned, or beheaded.
Peter: Martyrdom by crucifixion at Rome with his head downwards.
Philip: Martyrdom.
Simon: Martyrdom by crucifixion or being sawn in half.
Thomas: Martyrdom by being stabbed with a spear.And to this very day, Christians are killed, just because they are Christ's followers. How much worse tribualtion could there possibly be?

We could be alive and remain, until his (one) second (and last) coming.

Jesus Christ said there would be a tribulation such as there has not been since there was a nation on earth. That has not happened yet. Daniel says the same thing. The book of Rev. in chapter 13 the beast will reign for 42 months. That has not happened yet. There is a tribulation coming that is worse than anything that has happened yet.

divaD
Apr 28th 2008, 01:54 AM
Scripture makes sense when we accept it for what it literally says, I have finally learned. 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 says that some believers will be alive at the Coming of Christ. Yet Rev 13:15 says:

"...and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

With you Tex and others saying that believers will be on the run for their very lives, hiding out from the antichrist reminds me of when I was pretrib and the several different movies I saw in different Churches of those who were left behind to face the antichrist after the Rapture of the Church so they wouldn't be forced to take the motb.

While each of the movies had different titles, characters, actors and story lines, they all were basically the same. And the pastors used them as evangelistic tools to get put such fear in the unsaved by showing them what would happen to them if they missed the Rapture.

The people left behind were always running and screaming and sweating and dirty, their clothes full of holes and mostly rags, just trying to stay alive and away from antichrist and his wrath on them and his forcing his mark on them and they would be eternally lost spending eternity in the lake of fire. They were always looking for someone to turn to to help them. Always looking for someplace to hide. But they finally found that there was no one to turn to who would help them and no place to hide.

Even those who had plenty of money before and had plenty of food stored up and all kinds of beautiful vacation homes on beautiful lakes and beaches found out that none of these things could help them then. And neither could they depend on each other for help or even moral support. It soon became each family trying to take care of his own and no one else. And then each individual.

But nowhere in Revelation or anywhere else in the Bible do we find scenes like that. So I can't possibly agree that since 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 clearly proves that there will be believers left alive at Christ's Coming that they survived the antichrist by running and hiding and being prepared with stored up food and supplies to reconcile those Scriptures with Rev 13. It is simply not there. And I don't have liberty to add it.

The only explanation that I have from the Bible is that Jesus returns before all of the believers are killed and rescues them and destroys the beast and all of his followers.

I believe that we find this explanation in 2 Thess 1 and 2.

I believe the man of sin is the same as the beast in Rev 13. And we see what happens to him when Jesus returns.


Shirley








Shirley, maybe hiding out is the wrong terminolgy to use. Maybe it's more like escaping to a safer place. Christ Himself did this at times. Here's an example.


John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.


This doesn't mean Jesus was a coward, it simply means that it wasn't meant for Jesus to die in this manner, so He escaped thru the midst of them. We can find the same things with some of the apostles.

Acts 14:1 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.
2 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren.
3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
4 But the multitude of the city was divided: and part held with the Jews, and part with the apostles.
5 And when there was an assault made both of the Gentiles, and also of the Jews with their rulers, to use them despitefully, and to stone them,
6 They were ware of it, and fled unto Lystra and Derbe, cities of Lycaonia, and unto the region that lieth round about:
7 And there they preached the gospel


Here we clearly see them fleeing to a safer place. I'm certain I can find more examples, but hopefully these will make my point.

ShirleyFord
Apr 28th 2008, 02:10 AM
Shirley, maybe hiding out is the wrong terminolgy to use. Maybe it's more like escaping to a safer place. Christ Himself did this at times. Here's an example.


John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.


This doesn't mean Jesus was a coward, it simply means that it wasn't meant for Jesus to die in this manner, so He escaped thru the midst of them. We can find the same things with some of the apostles.

Acts 14:1 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.
2 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren.
3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
4 But the multitude of the city was divided: and part held with the Jews, and part with the apostles.
5 And when there was an assault made both of the Gentiles, and also of the Jews with their rulers, to use them despitefully, and to stone them,
6 They were ware of it, and fled unto Lystra and Derbe, cities of Lycaonia, and unto the region that lieth round about:
7 And there they preached the gospel


Here we clearly see them fleeing to a safer place. I'm certain I can find more examples, but hopefully these will make my point.

No, I can't see that you made your point, not to what I had said anyway:


The people left behind were always running and screaming and sweating and dirty, their clothes full of holes and mostly rags, just trying to stay alive and away from antichrist and his wrath on them and his forcing his mark on them and they would be eternally lost spending eternity in the lake of fire. They were always looking for someone to turn to to help them. Always looking for someplace to hide. But they finally found that there was no one to turn to who would help them and no place to hide.

Even those who had plenty of money before and had plenty of food stored up and all kinds of beautiful vacation homes on beautiful lakes and beaches found out that none of these things could help them then. And neither could they depend on each other for help or even moral support. It soon became each family trying to take care of his own and no one else. And then each individual.

But nowhere in Revelation or anywhere else in the Bible do we find scenes like that. So I can't possibly agree that since 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 clearly proves that there will be believers left alive at Christ's Coming that they survived the antichrist by running and hiding and being prepared with stored up food and supplies to reconcile those Scriptures with Rev 13. It is simply not there. And I don't have liberty to add it.

Perhaps, I misunderstood what you initially said. And you could explain more what you meant.


Shirley

divaD
Apr 28th 2008, 03:01 AM
No, I can't see that you made your point, not to what I had said anyway:



Perhaps, I misunderstood what you initially said. And you could explain more what you meant.


Shirley


Shirley, my point is, we know from Scriptures that many will remain alive when Christ returns. All I'm trying to do is determine how they do this, esp if there is a considerable amount of time that passes before Christ returns, and people begin being killed for not worshipping the beast and it's image.
How is it that some are killed and others are not? How do the ones not killed avoid being killed?


But nowhere in Revelation or anywhere else in the Bible do we find scenes like that. So I can't possibly agree that since 1
Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 clearly proves that there will be believers left alive at Christ's Coming that they survived the antichrist
by running and hiding and being prepared with stored up food and supplies to reconcile those Scriptures with Rev 13. It is
simply not there. And I don't have liberty to add it

I 100% agree with you here. So I'm not about to suggest it as a possibility.

I would like to make one last comment. Obviously I haven't put much thought in this. To be totally honest, I never even really considered this until Tex had posted it in this thread. But now that I have thought about it for a bit, I've got to wonder how some survive, and why some don't, esp when the same fate is pronounced upon all...worship the beast and it's image or die.

Diggindeeper
Apr 28th 2008, 03:41 AM
But, diva, is there scripture that shows any one would be taken out BEFORE that time, before the order is given to worship the beast or his image?

I offer that Christ Jesus is returning, just as he said he would. But I further offer that Jesus returns only ONCE, at the very end. Then, comes the destruction.

2 Thess. 2 verse 8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

ShirleyFord
Apr 28th 2008, 03:51 AM
Shirley, my point is, we know from Scriptures that many will remain alive when Christ returns. All I'm trying to do is determine how they do this, esp if there is a considerable amount of time that passes before Christ returns, and people begin being killed for not worshipping the beast and it's image.
How is it that some are killed and others are not? How do the ones not killed avoid being killed?



I 100% agree with you here. So I'm not about to suggest it as a possibility.

I would like to make one last comment. Obviously I haven't put much thought in this. To be totally honest, I never even really considered this until Tex had posted it in this thread. But now that I have thought about it for a bit, I've got to wonder how some survive, and why some don't, esp when the same fate is pronounced upon all...worship the beast and it's image or die.

For the very same reason that we find in Acts 12 Herod killed James but God sent an angel to release Peter. And soon afterward God killed Herod. And no explanation is given as to why God didn't also protect James from death as He did Peter.

Both were apostles of the original 12 disciples of Jesus. Did that mean that Peter was a greater apostle than James. I don't think so. If that were the case I believe that we would find that at least mentioned somewhere in the Bible.

God is a sovereign God. He knows the beginning of our lives and He knows the ending of it. He has a purpose for each of our lives. That is why we must surrender our will to His will and purposes for our lives trusting Him to fulfill His will and purpose in us.

We can gain some insight from what God told Isaiah:

Is 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Paul confirmed it:

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

And we see the reality of it with the death of Stephen in Acts 7.

Because of his death, Saul whose name was changed to Paul was standing there when Stephen was stoned to death, we are told in Acts 7:58.

And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

Saul was consenting to Stephen's death:

Acts 8:1 1 And Saul was consenting unto his death.

Saul heard the gospel of Jesus Christ preached from Stephen in Acts 6 and 7 and watched him die.

The Church was scattered from Jerusalem because of the fierce persecution that Saul brought upon then after Stephen's death. They took the gospel to the Gentiles because of Stephen's death. And Saul met Jesus on the Damascus Rd. God saved him and changed his name to Paul. And he began preaching the same Jesus, the same gospel that he had hated the Church for and persecuted them for.


Shirley

9Marksfan
Apr 28th 2008, 09:23 AM
Noah and Lot were not TAKEN anywhere.

But surely Noah and his family were taken into the ark and Lot and his daughters (and initially his wife) were taken out of Sodom?

David Taylor
Apr 28th 2008, 11:54 AM
Jesus Christ said there would be a tribulation such as there has not been since there was a nation on earth. That has not happened yet. Daniel says the same thing. The book of Rev. in chapter 13 the beast will reign for 42 months. That has not happened yet. There is a tribulation coming that is worse than anything that has happened yet.

Not in severity(individually), only in locational scope(globally).

A future end-time christian martyr cannot be boiling in scalding oil any worse than a first-century christian martyr.

0nly the scope(more Christians globally being marytred) can be worse.

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 11:57 AM
But surely Noah and his family were taken into the ark and Lot and his daughters (and initially his wife) were taken out of Sodom?

True... before the wrath of God and his judgment fell. But they were not taken out as a way to avoid suffering. It was strictly to avoid the wrath and judgment of God.

David Taylor
Apr 28th 2008, 12:08 PM
But surely Noah and his family were taken into the ark

So were giraffes, hippos, rabbits, and lamas.

They were "taken into the ark" also...

does that make them pre-type examples of :pppretrib rapture rabbits:bounce:?

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 12:11 PM
Not in severity(individually), only in locational scope(globally).

A future end-time christian martyr cannot be boiling in scalding oil any worse than a first-century christian martyr.

0nly the scope(more Christians globally being marytred) can be worse.

This is an excellent point! I think many folks think the rapture may be intended to rescue believers from suffering. But God has allowed believers to suffer since sin entered into the world. The scope of the suffering will be much broader than it has been before.

9Marksfan
Apr 28th 2008, 12:52 PM
True... before the wrath of God and his judgment fell. But they were not taken out as a way to avoid suffering. It was strictly to avoid the wrath and judgment of God.

Agreed - I'm not a pre-tribber but there does seem to be a strong parallel between Noah and Lot and those who are "taken" while others are "left".

Does anyone know of (or subscribe to) the teaching (which I understand is held by some pre-tribbers) that the "one shall be taken" means "for judgement" and "one shall be left" means "for blessing"? It seems so clear to me that these verses are speaking of a rapture IMMEDIATELY prior to Christ's judgement, that I struggle to understand how they come to that viewpoint, if they are pre-tribbers...... :hmm:

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 12:58 PM
Agreed - I'm not a pre-tribber but there does seem to be a strong parallel between Noah and Lot and those who are "taken" while others are "left".

Does anyone know of (or subscribe to) the teaching (which I understand is held by some pre-tribbers) that the "one shall be taken" means "for judgement" and "one shall be left" means "for blessing"? It seems so clear to me that these verses are speaking of a rapture IMMEDIATELY prior to Christ's judgement, that I struggle to understand how they come to that viewpoint, if they are pre-tribbers...... :hmm:

Well, it gets interesting as to the "taking" in looking at parables. That's why I don't think all the parables are about the rapture but are about judgment. Though I do think some of the "one taken and the other left" is about the rapture.

Here's an example that I don't think is about the rapture but rather about judgment.

Matt 13:24-30

24 He presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 "But while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares also among the wheat, and went away. 26 "But when the wheat sprang up and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. 27 "And the slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' 28 "And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' And the slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?' 29 "But he said, 'No; lest while you are gathering up the tares, you may root up the wheat with them. 30 'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."' "
NASB

The tares are gathered first. Though I don't think I would put a ton of stock in that alone. But when combined with the following parable, I think it is interesting. (Note: because the tares are cast into the fire, it implies judgment in my mind.)

Matt 13:47-50

47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind; 48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down, and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. 49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels shall come forth, and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
NASB

But in the above parable, Christ seems to indicate that the wicked will be snatched out from the righteous and cast into the lake of fire. I see that as judgment. Not rapture.

9Marksfan
Apr 28th 2008, 12:59 PM
So were giraffes, hippos, rabbits, and lamas.

They were "taken into the ark" also...

does that make them pre-type examples of :pppretrib rapture rabbits:bounce:?


:lol:

There was also a couple of these....

:monkeyd::monkeyd:

Or perhaps SEVEN pairs (Gen 7:2)?!?

:monkeyd::monkeyd:
:monkeyd::monkeyd:
:monkeyd::monkeyd:
:monkeyd::monkeyd:
:monkeyd::monkeyd:


(I know that's not seven, but I'm only allowed a max of 15 images, so you'll just have to imagine the missing four!)

To quote one of the other posters, it really MUST have been a miracle of persevering grace for Noah to have STAYED in the Ark with THAT lot in with him!

9Marksfan
Apr 28th 2008, 01:01 PM
This is an excellent point! I think many folks think the rapture may be intended to rescue believers from suffering. But God has allowed believers to suffer since sin entered into the world. The scope of the suffering will be much broader than it has been before.

Amen! I like the way this thread is going! :)

Truthinlove
Apr 28th 2008, 02:09 PM
The second question is whether you feel as I do that the saving of Noah and Lot from the judgments is a picture of how Christians will be saved from the Tribulation.

:wave:

I do not think it is a picture of how Christians will be saved from "the tribulation", meaning the entire 7 years.

I do think it is a picture of how Christians will be spared the wrath of God during the Day of the Lord judgments.

Lot was righteous, he left Sodom and wrath fell on the wicked and they were destroyed.

Noah was righteous, he and his family entered the ark and God's wrath fell on the wicked and they were destroyed.

It will be just the same when Jesus returns, the righteous will be removed via the rapture and the the wrath of God will fall on the wicked and they will be destroyed.

I believe this is also a picture of the DOTL beginning on the SAME DAY that the rapture will be.

In the examples of Lot and Noah, they were rescued and wrath followed on the same day.

It will be just the same when Jesus returns, the rapture and the DOTL will be on the same day. Of course I believe the DOTL is longer than a 24 hour period, but it will begin shortly after the rapture takes place.
Paul links the the DOTL closely together with the rapture in 1 and 2 Thess.

RevLogos
Apr 28th 2008, 03:00 PM
This is an excellent point! I think many folks think the rapture may be intended to rescue believers from suffering. But God has allowed believers to suffer since sin entered into the world. The scope of the suffering will be much broader than it has been before.

Agreed. Many Christians around the world are in their own tribulations now.

Consider the Christians in North Iraq facing extinction. They cannot buy, sell, or get jobs. When I read this over the weekend it sure sounded much like tribulations to me:

http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=FBE73A97-9BC1-439B-A1D0-65ECFDAFB573

I am one who believes in a more gradual increase in persecution as we approach the tribulations rather than a sudden event. In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus compares the end-times to the pains of child birth. Birth pains initially come and go but they become more frequent and more painful as birth approaches. This suggests the pain of the tribulations may initially come and go, or be felt in certain regions, then increase in scope and intensity.

Luke 21 shows earthquakes, famines, plagues and persecution before the rapture. Jesus gives Christians a mission during these times: to be witnesses to the truth.

So regardless of your pre-mid-post trib views, things will get tough on Christians toward the end. But as in Noah and other events, the faithful will escape the wrath of God.

RevLogos
Apr 28th 2008, 03:36 PM
The first question is whether you feel as I do that Christ's return must be very close because of the tremendous rise of evil in the world within the span of our lifetimes.

We always look at things through the lens of our own lifetime. Though evil seems on the rise now, back in the 60's with the evil empire, and learning to "duck and cover" just before your city gets obliterated, I am sure many thought the end was near. Then 20 years prior we had Hitler and global war. Surely many Christians thought the end was near.

So is there any reason to believe the evil of today is somehow different than the past?

Yes! Today there is a difference. The evils of ages past have always been defeated. The evils of today are undercutting society at it's root: the family, and more evil is planning violence to end society as we know it. There are two evils in this world today that are here to stay.

Instead of evil represented by hostile governments from years past, evil now is coming from the heart of Man. Though in the US crime statistics are not any greater than years past, we see a rise in the most evil of crimes. Random violence and killings, mass killings, violence by children against children. We see God and morality systematically eliminated from our schools, replaced by postmodernism, materialism, moral relativity, a belief that there are no absolute truths. And with this we see the destruction of the family through abortion, and through promotion of "alternative lifestyles" in our schools as equal to a family. I also believe that the great falling-away predicted by Paul is happening now. We are in the Laodicean age.

We also see an ancient evil has reared it's ugly head again - Islam. Unlike Hitler or communism, both governments, Islam is a religion. And it hates Christians and Jews. It's mission is to destroy all that are not like them. And the end justifies any means. This threat will never go away. As long as Islam exists, there will be no world peace. It will not be defeated economically as the Soviet Union was, nor militarily as the Nazi's were.

ShirleyFord
Apr 28th 2008, 03:36 PM
I do think it is a picture of how Christians will be spared the wrath of God during the Day of the Lord judgments.

Lot was righteous, he left Sodom and wrath fell on the wicked and they were destroyed.

Noah was righteous, he and his family entered the ark and God's wrath fell on the wicked and they were destroyed.

It will be just the same when Jesus returns, the righteous will be removed via the rapture and the the wrath of God will fall on the wicked and they will be destroyed.

I believe this is also a picture of the DOTL beginning on the SAME DAY that the rapture will be.

In the examples of Lot and Noah, they were rescued and wrath followed on the same day.

Amen.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.



1 Thess 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Shirley

wombat
Apr 28th 2008, 08:04 PM
Instead of evil represented by hostile governments from years past, evil now is coming from the heart of Man. I also believe that the great falling-away predicted by Paul is happening now. We are in the Laodicean age.

Hi, Revolvr! I think you have spoken very well, and I agree with you that the great falling away is now occurring. Thank you to everyone else who has responded to my question, too--your answers are appreciated and very interesting to me.

wpm
Apr 29th 2008, 04:54 AM
In Noah's day, God told Noah that he would destroy the world in seven days:



God did NOT shut Noah and his family up in safety in the ark for 7 days. God gave Noah 7 days notice – allowing him to fill the ark with his family and the animals, saying, "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth" (Genesis 7:4).

7 days notice until the rain comes!!! God then closed the ark and the floods came immediately - lasting 40 days, although the water remained on the earth 150 days until the ark rested on Ararat. Jesus said, “the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all”(Luke 17:27).

Paul

wpm
Apr 29th 2008, 05:02 AM
Agreed - I'm not a pre-tribber but there does seem to be a strong parallel between Noah and Lot and those who are "taken" while others are "left".

Does anyone know of (or subscribe to) the teaching (which I understand is held by some pre-tribbers) that the "one shall be taken" means "for judgement" and "one shall be left" means "for blessing"? It seems so clear to me that these verses are speaking of a rapture IMMEDIATELY prior to Christ's judgement, that I struggle to understand how they come to that viewpoint, if they are pre-tribbers...... :hmm:

(1) How many wicked survived the flood?
(2) How many wicked survived the fire in Sodom?

Paul

wpm
Apr 29th 2008, 05:06 AM
:wave:

I do not think it is a picture of how Christians will be saved from "the tribulation", meaning the entire 7 years.

I do think it is a picture of how Christians will be spared the wrath of God during the Day of the Lord judgments.

Lot was righteous, he left Sodom and wrath fell on the wicked and they were destroyed.

Noah was righteous, he and his family entered the ark and God's wrath fell on the wicked and they were destroyed.

It will be just the same when Jesus returns, the righteous will be removed via the rapture and the the wrath of God will fall on the wicked and they will be destroyed.

I believe this is also a picture of the DOTL beginning on the SAME DAY that the rapture will be.

In the examples of Lot and Noah, they were rescued and wrath followed on the same day.

It will be just the same when Jesus returns, the rapture and the DOTL will be on the same day. Of course I believe the DOTL is longer than a 24 hour period, but it will begin shortly after the rapture takes place.
Paul links the the DOTL closely together with the rapture in 1 and 2 Thess.

Exactly.

Paul

the rookie
Apr 29th 2008, 05:22 AM
(1) How many wicked survived the flood?
(2) How many wicked survived the fire in Sodom?

Paul


Not to overly vex you, since we have the same views about pre-trib doctrine; but technically, Ham and Lot didn't do so great after these judgments. Moab and Ammon were the product of Lot's daughters and their progeny, after all. In fact, the Tower of Babel in Gen. 11 shows us that the answer to your query is "more than a few".

wpm
Apr 29th 2008, 05:42 AM
Not to overly vex you, since we have the same views about pre-trib doctrine; but technically, Ham and Lot didn't do so great after these judgments. Moab and Ammon were the product of Lot's daughters and their progeny, after all. In fact, the Tower of Babel in Gen. 11 shows us that the answer to your query is "more than a few".

It didn't stop them being just. 2 Peter 2:7 confirms this in regard to Lot: "And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked."

No wicked survived in Noah's day. None survived in Sodom. None will survive the Lord's return.

Jesus said in Luke 17 “the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all” (v27).

Jesus continues, “the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all” (v29).

The Lord concludes, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (v 30)

Paul says, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day” (II Thessalonians 1:7-10).

Peter said in 2 Peter 3:10-11, “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved.”

The writer of the Hebrews says in Heb 10:27, “a certain fearful looking forof judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”

John says, “heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns …out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King of kings, and Lord of lords” (Revelation 19:11-16).

Verses 17-18, saying, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven,Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The (or) remaining ones (or) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Paul

Merton
Apr 29th 2008, 10:44 AM
No wicked survived in Noah's day. None survived in Sodom. None will survive the Lord's return.

Paul



You missed the point that none were resurrected either, and mortal life continued upon the earth.

The pattern of Noah does not refer to the same pattern as does the example of Lot, and even Lots daughters accompanied lot out of the city and survived mortally.

To be true to the scriptures one ought not read more into the scriptures which are just not there.

It is like that one has an idea in ones mind which becomes the interpreter of scripture.

Merton.

9Marksfan
Apr 29th 2008, 11:18 AM
(1) How many wicked survived the flood?
(2) How many wicked survived the fire in Sodom?

Paul


None of course - so are you agreeing with me that it's speaking of Judgement?

heart hammer
Apr 29th 2008, 03:47 PM
First off Chapter 6 of Genesis goes into somedetail about the nature of man before the flood. The imaginations of the thoughts of their hearts were only evil continually.

Gen 6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Gen 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
Gen 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
Gen 19:6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
Gen 19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
Gen 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
Gen 19:9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
Gen 19:10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
Gen 19:11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
Gen 19:12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
Gen 19:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.
Gen 19:14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.
Gen 19:15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.

Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:


The signs of that generation are here again. We see the conditions spoken of before both the flood and Sodom and Gommorah.
The reference in Ezekiel above is to show the state of those who will be spared judgment and wrath. These are those who have the seal of God in their forehead (this is mentioned here:
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

I probably haven't given you the answer you were looking for but rest assured if you are weary of the sights and sounds of this age...remember:

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds.
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Hold Fast!
Take care and God Bless

wpm
Apr 29th 2008, 04:35 PM
None of course - so are you agreeing with me that it's speaking of Judgement?

Yes, it is speaking of God's judgment upon all those that refuse to accept Him. They will all be destroyed at Christ's return. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 says, “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.”

Please note (1) the destruction is “sudden” and (2) the wicked “shall not escape.”

Paul

wpm
Apr 29th 2008, 04:40 PM
You missed the point that none were resurrected either, and mortal life continued upon the earth.

The pattern of Noah does not refer to the same pattern as does the example of Lot, and even Lots daughters accompanied lot out of the city and survived mortally.

To be true to the scriptures one ought not read more into the scriptures which are just not there.

It is like that one has an idea in ones mind which becomes the interpreter of scripture.

Merton.

Firstly, mortal corruptible life has never before been extinguished. That will happen when Christ returns. It is only them that the bondage of corruption is finally eliminated. Romans 8:19-23 explains, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be (future tense) delivered from the bondage of corruption (death, sin and decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

God has ordained a day when He will finally bring time, sin and corruption to an end. This passage speaks of an approaching climactic event in history that will eventually and eternally release all creation from a position of current anguish and despair to a place of total liberation and relief. In fact, there can be no doubt, the central focus of this whole passage is the yearning of “the whole creation” for the day when “the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” There is indeed a termination to the “bondage of corruption.” Scripture makes it repeatedly clear that there will be a last day to the current fallen state. At this juncture we must briefly enquire, what is this “bondage of corruption” spoken of in this passage that will one day be removed? It is the awful curse that came upon all mankind as a result of Adam’s fall in the Garden of Eden. This curse embodies every effect of the fall that afflicts man, including sin, death, and every form of decay.

Secondly, Christ makes no allusion to the resurrection. The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked. Christ plainly and purposefully advanced these two days, where the righteous were graciously rescued just prior to the full annihilation of the wicked, in order to vividly portray the nature and scope of the day of His wrath at the Second Coming. He deliberates and graphically connected the happenings of both these former days of judgment to the day of His return. Jesus succinctly said, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (Luke 17:30).

Paul

Merton
Apr 29th 2008, 10:57 PM
Firstly, mortal corruptible life has never before been extinguished. That will happen when Christ returns. It is only them that the bondage of corruption is finally eliminated. Romans 8:19-23 explains, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be (future tense) delivered from the bondage of corruption (death, sin and decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”





Sorry Paul but you have it all wrong.

For the creature to be awaiting the manifestation of the sons of God so as to be to be delivered (future) from the bondage of corruption then it must follow that both the creature to be delivered and the sons of God be two different identities, both alive at the same time.

As the scripture does say --

"And not only they---, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit,




God has ordained a day when He will finally bring time, sin and corruption to an end. This passage speaks of an approaching climactic event in history that will eventually and eternally release all creation from a position of current anguish and despair to a place of total liberation and relief. In fact, there can be no doubt, the central focus of this whole passage is the yearning of “the whole creation” for the day when “the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” There is indeed a termination to the “bondage of corruption.” Scripture makes it repeatedly clear that there will be a last day to the current fallen state. At this juncture we must briefly enquire, what is this “bondage of corruption” spoken of in this passage that will one day be removed? It is the awful curse that came upon all mankind as a result of Adam’s fall in the Garden of Eden. This curse embodies every effect of the fall that afflicts man, including sin, death, and every form of decay.


Paul,

Your own belief system demands that Christ has overturned that curse for those who believe, and even the curse upon the earth was removed in the days of Noah.

Men are cursed today because they break Gods law, and where they keep His law they are blessed, be they of the elect or not. That is, the elect who carry Gods word are a guide to the unsaved as any parent is to their household, so is the church within the nation.

It is only after the nations are no more, after the last judgment, that the eternal state will ensue.

Nations (plural), therefore mortals, are still alive on the earth after the new Jerusalem comes down--


Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.
Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.




Secondly, Christ makes no allusion to the resurrection. The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked. Christ plainly and purposefully advanced these two days, where the righteous were graciously rescued just prior to the full annihilation of the wicked, in order to vividly portray the nature and scope of the day of His wrath at the Second Coming. He deliberates and graphically connected the happenings of both these former days of judgment to the day of His return. Jesus succinctly said, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (Luke 17:30).




Paul,

Yes the wicked are all destroyed at Christ's coming wrath,(Rev.16) but the accounts of both Noah and Lot show the continuation of the righteous, and others with them , in the mortal state along with their sinable flesh.

You own view allows that yourself is now living in the Kingdom of God, so it is not difficult to understand that mortals who are saved from wrath in the last 3.5 years of the witness of the Bride will do the same after Christ returns to resurrect the Bride in order for them to rule and reign over them both in the church and in the national sense over their nations.---

Read all of Zeph ch 3.

Zep 3:19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame.
Zep 3:20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the LORD.


Merton

divaD
Apr 30th 2008, 02:29 AM
No wicked survived in Noah's day. None survived in Sodom. None will survive the Lord's return.




Let's consider the 1000 yr reign of Christ. What happens at the end of that 1000 yrs? satan is freed, and goes to deceive the nations, and they in turn decide to form an army and attack the Holy city. With this in mind, and if there are no wicked left, which would mean nothing but saints on the earth during this 1000 yrs, then how was satan able to deceive them and get them to depart from the living God?

Now let's consider Noah's flood. The purpose of the flood was to destroy wickedness from off the face of the earth, yet wickness still continued, and still continues.

I'm not trying to imply anything here one way or the other, concerning the Lord entirely destroying the wicked off the earth when He returns. I'm just wondering how satan is able to deceive anyone when he is loosed, if all those on the earth are born again saints, and all of the wicked were destroyed when Christ returned.

wpm
Apr 30th 2008, 06:08 AM
Let's consider the 1000 yr reign of Christ. What happens at the end of that 1000 yrs? satan is freed, and goes to deceive the nations, and they in turn decide to form an army and attack the Holy city. With this in mind, and if there are no wicked left, which would mean nothing but saints on the earth during this 1000 yrs, then how was satan able to deceive them and get them to depart from the living God?

Now let's consider Noah's flood. The purpose of the flood was to destroy wickedness from off the face of the earth, yet wickness still continued, and still continues.

I'm not trying to imply anything here one way or the other, concerning the Lord entirely destroying the wicked off the earth when He returns. I'm just wondering how satan is able to deceive anyone when he is loosed, if all those on the earth are born again saints, and all of the wicked were destroyed when Christ returned.

Glorification has never occurred before, not in Noah's day or in Sodom, but all the wicked have been eliminated in these former days, just like they will when Jesus returns. Glorification of the righteous is a new thing which man and this eath will experience together for the first time (Rom 8, 2 Peter 3).

I think that you fail to acknowledge the recapitulation in Revelation. Rev 20 is the last of 7 parallels. I hold the thousand yrs to be symbolic and Rev 20 to relate to the hear-and-now.

Paul

Diggindeeper
Apr 30th 2008, 06:25 AM
One thought I want to add...my own thought.

I think we all can agree that "evil' and "wickedness" did rear its ugly head even after the flood. So did the giants! And wicked nations, fierce enemies to the chosen and Promised Seed.

I offer the fact that we know absolutely nothing about the 3 wives of Noah's three sons! And Ham certainly had a wicked lineage....

Who knows what kind of things those girls were into? But, I firmly believe that SOMEHOW, God will allow only the RIGHTEOUS to be in that new heaven and new earth, perhaps in the not-too-distant-future.