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View Full Version : Proverbs 1, God laughs at those in trouble and mocks them?



moonglow
Apr 28th 2008, 01:48 PM
I am putting this on this form because this has come up in a discussion to someone I witnessing to about our faith.

23 Come and listen to my counsel.
I’ll share my heart with you
and make you wise.

24 “I called you so often, but you wouldn’t come.
I reached out to you, but you paid no attention.
25 You ignored my advice
and rejected the correction I offered.
26 So I will laugh when you are in trouble!
I will mock you when disaster overtakes you—
27 when calamity overtakes you like a storm,
when disaster engulfs you like a cyclone,
and anguish and distress overwhelm you.

28 “When they cry for help, I will not answer.
Though they anxiously search for me, they will not find me.
29 For they hated knowledge
and chose not to fear the Lord.
30 They rejected my advice
and paid no attention when I corrected them.
31 Therefore, they must eat the bitter fruit of living their own way,
choking on their own schemes.
32 For simpletons turn away from me—to death.
Fools are destroyed by their own complacency.
33 But all who listen to me will live in peace,
untroubled by fear of harm.”

Now I can understand the part about when God draws the line...but I don't understand the laughing at those in trouble or mocking them. This seems very out of character for how God is described in the rest of the bible. I tried looking up a bible commentary on this but its not addressed...so I need some help with this one! thanks!

God bless

9Marksfan
Apr 28th 2008, 02:02 PM
Here is another passage that teaches the same thing:-

He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; the Lord shall hold them in derision. Ps 2:4 NKJV

What we so often forget is that God is a staggeringly righteous God who utterly hates sin and will pour out His holy and just wrath on all those who rebel against Him (ie everyone who does not repent) - the appalling wickedness of those in Prov 1 is that they spurned the correction of wisdom again and again and again - they thought they knew better than God - they thought they were wiser than Him - He is perfectly entitled to hold them in derision - the baffling thing is that He persisted with them for so long........

moonglow
Apr 28th 2008, 02:08 PM
Ok well I understand that...but..to actually laugh and mock them? This doesn't seem like a very holy trait...I mean look...Jesus tells us to rise above our enemies...to not get back at them, to pray for those that mock us...to love them! To turn the other cheek. He sets a very high standard for us...then we read God does this? That just doesn't make any sense to me...

When I was a little kid my sister got into trouble for something she did to me and I thought it was funny and laughed at her...when my mom caught me I got into BIG trouble for laughing at her punishment! How can we be told to uphold a high standard then see God behave this way? As I said, this simply doesn't fit in with what the rest of the bible says about the character of God...and it directly conflicts with these passage:

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’

2 Peter 3:9-"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God bless

moonglow
Apr 28th 2008, 02:26 PM
Well dumb dumb me! I should have gone back and read Proverbs in content...you would think I would know better by now! :B

Proverbs 1
The Purpose of Proverbs
1 These are the proverbs of Solomon, David’s son, king of Israel.

2 Their purpose is to teach people wisdom and discipline,
to help them understand the insights of the wise.
3 Their purpose is to teach people to live disciplined and successful lives,
to help them do what is right, just, and fair.
4 These proverbs will give insight to the simple,
knowledge and discernment to the young.

5 Let the wise listen to these proverbs and become even wiser.
Let those with understanding receive guidance
6 by exploring the meaning in these proverbs and parables,
the words of the wise and their riddles.

7 Fear of the Lord is the foundation of true knowledge,
but fools despise wisdom and discipline.
A Father’s Exhortation: Acquire Wisdom
8 My child, listen when your father corrects you.
Don’t neglect your mother’s instruction.
9 What you learn from them will crown you with grace
and be a chain of honor around your neck.

10 My child, if sinners entice you,
turn your back on them!
11 They may say, “Come and join us.
Let’s hide and kill someone!
Just for fun, let’s ambush the innocent!
12 Let’s swallow them alive, like the grave;
let’s swallow them whole, like those who go down to the pit of death.
13 Think of the great things we’ll get!
We’ll fill our houses with all the stuff we take.
14 Come, throw in your lot with us;
we’ll all share the loot.”

15 My child, don’t go along with them!
Stay far away from their paths.
16 They rush to commit evil deeds.
They hurry to commit murder.
17 If a bird sees a trap being set,
it knows to stay away.
18 But these people set an ambush for themselves;
they are trying to get themselves killed.
19 Such is the fate of all who are greedy for money;
it robs them of life.

Wisdom Shouts in the Streets

20 Wisdom shouts in the streets.
She cries out in the public square.
21 She calls to the crowds along the main street,
to those gathered in front of the city gate:
22 “How long, you simpletons,
will you insist on being simpleminded?
How long will you mockers relish your mocking?
How long will you fools hate knowledge?
23 Come and listen to my counsel.
I’ll share my heart with you
and make you wise.

24 “I called you so often, but you wouldn’t come.
I reached out to you, but you paid no attention.
25 You ignored my advice
and rejected the correction I offered.
26 So I will laugh when you are in trouble!
I will mock you when disaster overtakes you—
27 when calamity overtakes you like a storm,
when disaster engulfs you like a cyclone,
and anguish and distress overwhelm you.

28 “When they cry for help, I will not answer.
Though they anxiously search for me, they will not find me.
29 For they hated knowledge
and chose not to fear the Lord.
30 They rejected my advice
and paid no attention when I corrected them.
31 Therefore, they must eat the bitter fruit of living their own way,
choking on their own schemes.
32 For simpletons turn away from me—to death.
Fools are destroyed by their own complacency.
33 But all who listen to me will live in peace,
untroubled by fear of harm.”

This isn't God speaking...passage where God speak always say so.

Verse 20. Wisdom crieth (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=pr&chapter=001)
Here wisdom is again personified, as it is frequently, throughout this book; where nothing is meant but the teachings given to man, either by Divine revelation or the voice of the Holy Spirit in the heart. And this voice of wisdom is opposed to the seducing language of the wicked mentioned above. This voice is everywhere heard, in public, in private, in the streets, and in the house. Common sense, universal experience, and the law of justice written on the heart, as well as the law of God, testify against rapine and wrong of every kind.
********************

I know people who are SO book smart but seem to have no common sense at all! They do the dumbest things then wonder why they got into trouble.

Still I want to dig deeper on this and find a clear meaning as to who Wisdom is? And why is Wisdom referred to a she? If this were the Holy Spirit He would be referred to as a He, not a she. :hmm:

God bless

moonglow
Apr 28th 2008, 03:08 PM
Ok I looked up what a proverb is..its not to be taken literally...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proverb

A proverb (from the Latin proverbium), also called a byword, is a simple and concrete saying popularly known and repeated, which expresses a truth, based on common sense or the practical experience of humanity. They are often metaphorical. A proverb that describes a basic rule of conduct may also be known as a maxim. If a proverb is distinguished by particularly good phrasing, it may be known as an aphorism.

Proverbs are often borrowed from similar languages and cultures, and sometimes come down to the present through more than one language. Both the Bible (Book of Proverbs) and medieval Latin have played a considerable role in distributing proverbs across Europe, although almost every culture has examples of its own.

So 'wisdom' is not a person or diety, or even a spirit..its nothing more then an expression. Every scriptures where God actually speaks says so...this does not say, "God said" anywhere.

Here is a link to bible gateway..an online bible search that shows all the verses where God actually did speak.

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=said%20God&version1=51&searchtype=all&wholewordsonly=yes&bookset=1

Well I have to say I am relieved about this as it just did not fit in with the character of God.

What is the Bible? (http://www.carm.org/seek/Bible.htm)
The Bible contains many different styles of writing such as poetry, narration, fiction, history, law, and prophecy and must be interpreted in context of those styles. It is the source of the Christian religion in that the Bible contains the words of God and how the Christian is to apply the words of God to his life.

At any rate I am glad I did this thread...maybe it will be helpful for others that run into this also.

God bless

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 03:16 PM
You got it. Wisdom mocks us sometimes. Ever had the thought "Man I should have done this instead of that". Well, too late now.

moonglow
Apr 28th 2008, 03:23 PM
You got it. Wisdom mocks us sometimes. Ever had the thought "Man I should have done this instead of that". Well, too late now.

More often then I care to admit...like my original post and NOT reading that passage in content!!!! :B:B:B


:lol:

God bless

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2008, 03:27 PM
More often then I care to admit...like my original post and NOT reading that passage in content!!!! :B:B:B


:lol:

God bless

On the other hand, there are some things about God that are hard to swallow. For instance, the rich man lifted up his eyes in hell and saw Abraham and Lazarus. That ought to clue us in to how God will deal with the lost man. That is a constant reminder of what could have been and could be seen as mocking.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 28th 2008, 10:45 PM
I'm glad you got it. I was going to post the conclusion you came to but as I continued to read, you got it! :D As for Psalm 2, there is a laugh that is not mocking but is more like pity. Being put into derision simply means that you would be put into a place where you would be mocked. It doesn't say that He will be the one mocking you. ;)

God Bless!

moonglow
Apr 29th 2008, 12:15 AM
On the other hand, there are some things about God that are hard to swallow. For instance, the rich man lifted up his eyes in hell and saw Abraham and Lazarus. That ought to clue us in to how God will deal with the lost man. That is a constant reminder of what could have been and could be seen as mocking.

I don't see that as mocking...and it was Abraham was who the rich man was looking at, not God...on top of it the rich man kept up with his arrogance by asking Lazarus be sent to give him a drop of water as if he needed to serve this rich man. (did a bible study on this once). Isn't that how it will be with those that end up in hell? What lands them there besides obvious sin...their pride and arrogance. I image that won't change much no matter how 'tormented' they are.


Studyin'2Show I'm glad you got it. I was going to post the conclusion you came to but as I continued to read, you got it! As for Psalm 2, there is a laugh that is not mocking but is more like pity. Being put into derision simply means that you would be put into a place where you would be mocked. It doesn't say that He will be the one mocking you.

God Bless!

You know I have been doing this for years and this is the first time I had this passage presented and the person posting it said, see here, God is mocking and laughing at those that turn away from Him. He is nice to those that accept Him but cruel to those that don't. That is the usual atheist viewpoint. But this was a passage I hadn't seen before and briefly it threw me off as I pointed out in my second post..this goes against the whole character of God we see in the bible PLUS why expect us to meet this higher standard Jesus set for us but yet God not even meeting that standard. Its no different then me telling my son to treat everyone with respect, then him seeing me be rude to someone.

As they say, actions speak louder then words and God as our Father, sets that standard for us. So I am relieved, yes, I figured this out...but feel stupid for not reading it in content in the first place! That is usually my first rule I always follow when engaging a nonbeliever...well even a believer..anyone that asks about a passage in the bible and here I went and forgot! ugh.

Oh and yea I realize Psalm is poetry and not to be taking literally in all things...like God having wings...lol.

God bless

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 12:27 AM
I don't see that as mocking...and it was Abraham was who the rich man was looking at, not God...on top of it the rich man kept up with his arrogance by asking Lazarus be sent to give him a drop of water as if he needed to serve this rich man. (did a bible study on this once). Isn't that how it will be with those that end up in hell? What lands them there besides obvious sin...their pride and arrogance. I image that won't change much no matter how 'tormented' they are.

But he is constantly reminded of what could have been. He saw the man that sat at his gate each day, that knew the truth, and yet the rich man would not speak to him. Each day he passed his opportunity for eternal life. Each day the Lord desired to speak to him. Each day... and yet, he can see now the comfort that he will never enjoy. Being in great torment, he begs for one drop of water and is being constantly reminded of what could of been... all the while having no hope that anything will ever change. Wisdom laughs at his folly and mocks him each day. Constantly he sees what wisdom would have done and yet is reminded he didn't do it, and is in both physical and emotional pain as a result. All without hope, yet knowing, it did not have to be this way...

DrRoi
Apr 29th 2008, 12:33 AM
24 thousand +posts! You must have Carpal Tunnel Syndrome by now Moonglow! :spin:

If God is nice to those who believe then why does the rain fall on the wicked as well as the righteous? Why does He chastise those He loves?
Why will the believer suffer many things in this life?

DrRoi
Apr 29th 2008, 12:48 AM
But he is constantly reminded of what could have been. He saw the man that sat at his gate each day, that knew the truth, and yet the rich man would not speak to him. Each day he passed his opportunity for eternal life. Each day the Lord desired to speak to him. Each day... and yet, he can see now the comfort that he will never enjoy. Being in great torment, he begs for one drop of water and is being constantly reminded of what could of been... all the while having no hope that anything will ever change. Wisdom laughs at his folly and mocks him each day. Constantly he sees what wisdom would have done and yet is reminded he didn't do it, and is in both physical and emotional pain as a result. All without hope, yet knowing, it did not have to be this way...

Makes sense. Although I think he now mocks himself for his own lack of wisdom. Yet God does mock those who think more highly of themselves than they ought to. The Kings of the Earth. Those who trust in their riches. Yet simultaneously He Loves them and desires their change of heart.

No one goes to hell accidently. This parable is a picture of the only chance we have to get in on the Great Gift of God, Jesus the Christ. It is a picture of the finality of eternity. A Picture of how even one who returns from the grave is not enough evidence for the fools who deny their Creator.

cnw
Apr 29th 2008, 02:08 AM
I think we ought to be careful in stating the Psalm and Prov ought not be taken literally. these are the words God chose to put here...not confusious proverbs, or anothers, but Soloman and David and others whom he spoke through. I think we also get caught up in English translations and not the true Greek form of the word. were love has 4 meanings in Greek, we only have one word for it.
Moon you are right to study deeper as the usaved is used by the Enemy to catch us up in the literal words to be used against us no matter what. but litteral translations even if they are correct, when taken out of context can be damning to the word of God. Which in itself is contradictory.

moonglow
Apr 29th 2008, 02:23 AM
24 thousand +posts! You must have Carpal Tunnel Syndrome by now Moonglow! :spin:

If God is nice to those who believe then why does the rain fall on the wicked as well as the righteous? Why does He chastise those He loves?
Why will the believer suffer many things in this life?

Hey! Its DrRoi!!! Yahoo!:monkeyd:

Where have you been...you have been gone so long I figured I wouldn't see you again until I got to the pearly gates...:lol:

Now you gotta PM me and tell me what you have been up too...last time I talked to you, your computer had fired...(that is why getting dust out of the tower is helpful...;))

So nice to see you!


If God is nice to those who believe then why does the rain fall on the wicked as well as the righteous? Why does He chastise those He loves?
Why will the believer suffer many things in this life?


Good point! If we had it so easy and the unbelievers saw this, they would all want to join up! :rolleyes:

God bless

moonglow
Apr 29th 2008, 02:42 AM
But he is constantly reminded of what could have been. He saw the man that sat at his gate each day, that knew the truth, and yet the rich man would not speak to him. Each day he passed his opportunity for eternal life. Each day the Lord desired to speak to him. Each day... and yet, he can see now the comfort that he will never enjoy. Being in great torment, he begs for one drop of water and is being constantly reminded of what could of been... all the while having no hope that anything will ever change. Wisdom laughs at his folly and mocks him each day. Constantly he sees what wisdom would have done and yet is reminded he didn't do it, and is in both physical and emotional pain as a result. All without hope, yet knowing, it did not have to be this way...

Thats why its called hell. Though if any mocking is going on, I would think it would be his own mind...the constant, 'what if's'.


cnw I think we ought to be careful in stating the Psalm and Prov ought not be taken literally. these are the words God chose to put here...not confusious proverbs, or anothers, but Soloman and David and others whom he spoke through. I think we also get caught up in English translations and not the true Greek form of the word. were love has 4 meanings in Greek, we only have one word for it.
Moon you are right to study deeper as the usaved is used by the Enemy to catch us up in the literal words to be used against us no matter what. but litteral translations even if they are correct, when taken out of context can be damning to the word of God. Which in itself is contradictory.

There is always a literal meaning in the symbolism of course...even Jesus used parables...not literal stories...but fictional stories to get His point across. This was a very common way for people to teach then and we still do it alot today. The story, The Boy who Cried Wolf, is a fictional story...no real boy did this and it involved no real wolves, but it has a real message in the story and a very important one too. The fact its written as it is, doesn't discount or take away the seriousness of the message at all.

Consider this proverb

Proverbs 5

Avoid Immoral Women
1 My son, pay attention to my wisdom;
listen carefully to my wise counsel.
2 Then you will show discernment,
and your lips will express what you’ve learned.
3 For the lips of an immoral woman are as sweet as honey,
and her mouth is smoother than oil.
4 But in the end she is as bitter as poison,
as dangerous as a double-edged sword.
5 Her feet go down to death;
her steps lead straight to the grave

Now to take it literally would mean a woman filled with real poison was walking around and her legs stretched for miles and miles to where ever death is while her lips were covered with honey. We know this isn't to be taken literally...but the message is clear. Her speech (not her lips) will fill a man's mind with sweet words to seduce him...saying what he wants to hear. She is very attractive. But to having an affair with her means to sin...she is poison and like poison will ruin this man's life...not in the literal sense he would get sick from poison but his life will be ruined. Her feet going down to death means by sinning with her, he is on his way to hell...with her! Death and grave were commonly used then to mean hell. So my point is, while this isn't literal and no one would take it that way, it has a literal meaning that should be taken very seriously.

I do check the original language many times on key words that are in question and sometimes that can make a huge difference, but most of the time it doesn't...the meaning is still the same. I know what you mean though about unbelievers taking verses out of content that is why I always (well usually...duh on me) read it in content. Usually that clears it up pretty quickly! But not always.

God bless

9Marksfan
Apr 29th 2008, 10:35 AM
I'm very concerned to see people here trying to explain away Prov 1:26-30 (as if the wisdom referred to was somehow not a personification of God Himself - look at 1 Cor 1:24 and 30 to see Who is described as "wisdom from God" and "our Wisdom") and Ps 2:4, because they think they go against what the rest of the Bible teaches about the character of God - let me ask y'all...

After reading the following verses, do you believe in a God of wrath?

Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, and distress them in His deep displeasure Ps 2:5 NKJV

For the sake of My name I delay My wrath, and for My praise I restrain it for you, in order not to cut you off. Is 48:9 NASB

According to their deeds, so He will repay, wrath to His adversaries, recompense to His enemies; to the coastlands He will make recompense. Is 59:18 NASB

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." Jn 3:36 NASB

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, Rom 2:5 NKJV

But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) Rom 3:5 NKJV

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. Rom 5:9 NKJV

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Eph 5:6 NKJV

and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. 1 Thess 1:10 NKJV

...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 2 Thess 1:7b-9 NKJV

And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Rev 6:15-17 NKJV

Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. Rev 16:19 NKJV

Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Rev 19:15 NKJV

Now, in light of all these, if your answer is "yes", then shouldn't you look at Ps 2 again, especially, v12?

Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him. Ps 2:12 NKJV

If your answer is "no", then you don't believe in the God of the Bible.

It is God's RIGHT to show mercy to those He chooses - and to show wrath to everyone else - everyone of us deserves wrath after all - if atheists hate God for it, so be it! We do God a very great disservice if we try to water down His nature and His righteous justice against sin.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 29th 2008, 12:39 PM
9Marksfan,

The issue of the OP was not the wrath of God. Of course, that is more than justified. She was specifically question what seemed to her at the time to be God getting some joy out of those who are perishing (mocking them).

God Bless!

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 12:43 PM
That is right. And we must always take into consideration very clear verses like...

Ezek 18:23
23 "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord God, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
NASB

and

Ezek 33:11
11 "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord God, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'
NASB


God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. As Moonglow pointed out above, I think when a man realizes what truth is and what wisdom is, that wisdom torments him in his mind. He knows what could have been and his wisdom mocks him. It laughs at his predicament. Yet there is no hope.

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. And I believe that to include both the first death and the second death.

moonglow
Apr 29th 2008, 01:39 PM
I'm very concerned to see people here trying to explain away Prov 1:26-30 (as if the wisdom referred to was somehow not a personification of God Himself - look at 1 Cor 1:24 and 30 to see Who is described as "wisdom from God" and "our Wisdom") and Ps 2:4, because they think they go against what the rest of the Bible teaches about the character of God - let me ask y'all...

After reading the following verses, do you believe in a God of wrath?

Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, and distress them in His deep displeasure Ps 2:5 NKJV

For the sake of My name I delay My wrath, and for My praise I restrain it for you, in order not to cut you off. Is 48:9 NASB

According to their deeds, so He will repay, wrath to His adversaries, recompense to His enemies; to the coastlands He will make recompense. Is 59:18 NASB

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." Jn 3:36 NASB

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, Rom 2:5 NKJV

But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) Rom 3:5 NKJV

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. Rom 5:9 NKJV

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Eph 5:6 NKJV

and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. 1 Thess 1:10 NKJV

...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 2 Thess 1:7b-9 NKJV

And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Rev 6:15-17 NKJV

Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. Rev 16:19 NKJV

Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Rev 19:15 NKJV

Now, in light of all these, if your answer is "yes", then shouldn't you look at Ps 2 again, especially, v12?

Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him. Ps 2:12 NKJV

If your answer is "no", then you don't believe in the God of the Bible.

It is God's RIGHT to show mercy to those He chooses - and to show wrath to everyone else - everyone of us deserves wrath after all - if atheists hate God for it, so be it! We do God a very great disservice if we try to water down His nature and His righteous justice against sin.

Study'2Show and Brother Mark are correct...this has nothing to do with the wrath of God and if you notice NONE of those verses show God laughing. How can you describe God as angry and wrathful but yet be laughing too anyway? That wouldn't make any sense. When I am angry at my son for doing something bad, I sure am not laughing about it!

If God laughs over the fate of those that rebel against Him, then we would be dealing with some major contradictions with scriptures...as I already pointed out..how can we be told to love our enemies, turn the other cheek, pray for them when God is laughing at them and mocking them? That would make no sense. Plus like the scriptures Brother Mark posted...how would be resolve that? That God laughs at the fate of the wicked, yet doesn't want to see them die? Here we would have on one hand God caring about the loss of these people then say He laughs and mocks them. That would make no sense.

Not too mention neither God nor the Holy Spirit is EVER referred to as a 'she'. Then we would have to be figuring out why all the rest of the bible refers to Him in male tense except this one passage. That would be a real mess! And lead to doubts about whether the bible is trustworthy.

I am not trying to 'explain' away that passage...in content it explains itself pretty clearly. As I said God is never referred to as a 'she'.

I do appreciate your concerns here and I understand, but I think you misunderstood my initial post...as they said, this has nothing to do with the wrath of God. I am not trying to 'appease' an atheist. In fact I did this more for myself then him anyway because it made no sense! If a person takes a passage here and there in the bible they can build a idea of who God is that is usually distorted and untrue...this is why the whole bible has to be considered to get a balanced view of God. If I just took the verses you posted and never read any of the others..how God is long suffering as He doesn't want anyone to perish...how God is love, how God went out of His way for so many...if I didn't read any of those, I would think God was nothing but wrathful and angry and had no love and no compassion! But because I see the balance of Him in scriptures...I knew God doing this just made no sense at all. It would be extremely out of character for Him.

God bless

9Marksfan
Apr 29th 2008, 02:46 PM
9Marksfan,

The issue of the OP was not the wrath of God. Of course, that is more than justified. She was specifically question what seemed to her at the time to be God getting some joy out of those who are perishing (mocking them).

God Bless!

But the whole context of Ps 2 IS the wrath of God - and don't you think the calamity of those in Prov 1 is the condemnation of the lost?

What about this verse?

In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. Lk 10:21 NKJV

Jesus' rejoicing is twofold - the first part is in God's wisdom confounding the wisdom of the wise - that is a good and holy thing to do - when we get to glory, we too will rejoice in the wisdom and judgement of God toward those who reject Him (Rev 19:1-2) for we will be perfect then.

moonglow
Apr 29th 2008, 03:15 PM
But the whole context of Ps 2 IS the wrath of God - and don't you think the calamity of those in Prov 1 is the condemnation of the lost?

What about this verse?

In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. Lk 10:21 NKJV

Jesus' rejoicing is twofold - the first part is in God's wisdom confounding the wisdom of the wise - that is a good and holy thing to do - when we get to glory, we too will rejoice in the wisdom and judgement of God toward those who reject Him (Rev 19:1-2) for we will be perfect then.

First I think having joy is not the same as mockingly laughing at someone. There is no 'joy' in that ..its cruel and hurtful. The definitions are not the same. Jesus Is joyful the 'babes'...His disciples, were given the ability to understand which could only come from God. We cannot understand scriptures without the Holy Spirit in us.

Luke 21

21 At that same time Jesus was filled with the joy of the Holy Spirit, and he said, “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike. Yes, Father, it pleased you to do it this way.

22 “My Father has entrusted everything to me. No one truly knows the Son except the Father, and no one truly knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

23 Then when they were alone, he turned to the disciples and said, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you have seen. 24 I tell you, many prophets and kings longed to see what you see, but they didn’t see it. And they longed to hear what you hear, but they didn’t hear it.”

Scriptures tell us that Jesus came for the lost, NOT the righteous. And no one comes to Jesus unless they are drawn. So this passage is in keeping with that line of thought. Jesus didn't come for those who were self-righteous and arrogant and unable to see their own sins such as we see with the religious leaders of His time. They blinded themselves through their own pride in this way and God always gives us what we ask for...meaning He allowed them and even enhanced their blindness knowing their hearts and knowing they would not seek repentance...while at the same time opening the hearts and minds of those seeking such as in this case with the disciples. If you notice He goes on to say even the prophets did not see (understand) what the disciples were allowed to understand. God was working some real miracles here!

If you really want to that that proverbs as it being God laughing and mocking then you need to explain why He is being referred too as a 'she'.

God bless

9Marksfan
Apr 29th 2008, 06:03 PM
First I think having joy is not the same as mockingly laughing at someone. There is no 'joy' in that ..its cruel and hurtful.

But puny man thinking he is wiser than God IS laughable - ESPECIALLY to God, who sees it as UTTERLY ridiculous ie worthy of ridicule!


The definitions are not the same.

What I'm saying is that Jesus rejoices that the wicked are deliberately kept in ignorance - I thought you might have found that offensive too?

Please explain your munderstanding of Ps 2 to me - God laughs at those who think they can rebel against him successfully - He will have them in derision - Jesus will be angry with them and destroy them.


Jesus Is joyful the 'babes'...His disciples, were given the ability to understand which could only come from God. We cannot understand scriptures without the Holy Spirit in us.

Amen - I couldn't agree with you more and I love the way you put it - but you need to understand the other side of the coin too!


Luke 21

21 At that same time Jesus was filled with the joy of the Holy Spirit, and he said, “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike. Yes, Father, it pleased you to do it this way.

22 “My Father has entrusted everything to me. No one truly knows the Son except the Father, and no one truly knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

23 Then when they were alone, he turned to the disciples and said, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you have seen. 24 I tell you, many prophets and kings longed to see what you see, but they didn’t see it. And they longed to hear what you hear, but they didn’t hear it.”

Scriptures tell us that Jesus came for the lost, NOT the righteous. And no one comes to Jesus unless they are drawn. So this passage is in keeping with that line of thought.

Amen!


Jesus didn't come for those who were self-righteous and arrogant and unable to see their own sins such as we see with the religious leaders of His time. They blinded themselves through their own pride in this way and God always gives us what we ask for...meaning He allowed them and even enhanced their blindness knowing their hearts and knowing they would not seek repentance...

Exactly - Scripture tells us that God hardened their hearts! We need to understand that such rebellion and rejection of Him incurs His righteous wrath - do you accept the Scriptures on His wrath that I quoted? Do you accept that God is jealous and zealous for His own glory?


while at the same time opening the hearts and minds of those seeking such as in this case with the disciples. If you notice He goes on to say even the prophets did not see (understand) what the disciples were allowed to understand. God was working some real miracles here!

Again, couldn't agree with you more!


If you really want to that that proverbs as it being God laughing and mocking then you need to explain why He is being referred too as a 'she'.

Because in wisdom literature, virtues like wisdom are often personified as being female (think of The Muses). You cannot separate wisdom from God - they are synonymous - why would Solomon exhort "his son" to seek wisdom instead of God? If you replace the word "wisdom" with "the Lord" in most of the verses (except eg "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom"), then it should become clear - and you haven't answered my challenge that Christ is the wisdom of God and has become for us wisdom from God.


God bless

And you too!

Nigel

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 06:09 PM
What I'm saying is that Jesus rejoices that the wicked are deliberately kept in ignorance - I thought you might have found that offensive too?

Actually, I don't think that is completely accurate. Jesus is rejoicing at the way God does things. He is rejoicing that the truth is hidden. The ways of God please him. But we see at what he thinks of those that are blinded and cannot see on several different occasions. 1. On the cross, Jesus prayed that God would forgive them. He did not rejoice over their blindness. 2. But even more to the point...

Matt 23:37

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
NASB

Jesus did not rejoice at their deception. Instead, he longed for it to be different! Yet, he LOVED and REJOICED in the way of God that blessed the humble and resisted the proud. That is the point of the passage you quote. "I praise you God that you have hid these things from the wise and revealed them unto Babes". He did not rejoice over the blindness of the wicked but over the way God decided to reveal himself.

Indeed, God will judge them and they paid heavily for their sin.


Exactly - Scripture tells us that God hardened their hearts! We need to understand that such rebellion and rejection of Him incurs His righteous wrath - do you accept the Scriptures on His wrath that I quoted? Do you accept that God is jealous and zealous for His own glory?

Is God self seeking?

moonglow
Apr 29th 2008, 07:57 PM
9Marksfa

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonglow View Post
First I think having joy is not the same as mockingly laughing at someone. There is no 'joy' in that ..its cruel and hurtful.

But puny man thinking he is wiser than God IS laughable - ESPECIALLY to God, who sees it as UTTERLY ridiculous ie worthy of ridicule!

I think that is your opinion and I don't see God described in such a way as this. If we were so puny why did He love us enough to send His Son to die for our sins. I think we need to remember is not 'us' against them...and looking down on nonbelievers isn't right...especially since we were once in their place! The worse I see God saying towards those prideful people is that they are foolish.

1 Corinthians 1:19-21

19 As the Scriptures say,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise
and discard the intelligence of the intelligent.”

20 So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world’s brilliant debaters? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish. 21 Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never know him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save those who believe.

Quote:
The definitions are not the same.
What I'm saying is that Jesus rejoices that the wicked are deliberately kept in ignorance - I thought you might have found that offensive too?

Who were the wicked He was referring too though? It wasn't nonbelievers. It was those that claimed to believe in God..it was the Jewish religious leaders that were so prideful and thought themselves sinless. The bible shows us God doesn't just go around blinding people for the heck of it...He only blinds those already blind by their OWN choosing. As I said, He gives them what they want. Jesus was joyful I believe, because He was seeing God at work in this and more importantly, in opening the eyes of His disciples so they might see and understand. Until Jesus came all the disciple had to go by were what the corrupt Jewish leaders were teaching. Read Matthew 23. These religious leaders were leading people straight to hell. God stopped that process so of course, Jesus rejoiced.


Please explain your munderstanding of Ps 2 to me - God laughs at those who think they can rebel against him successfully - He will have them in derision - Jesus will be angry with them and destroy them.

If I am misunderstanding it how I can explain it to you? :confused


Quote:
Jesus Is joyful the 'babes'...His disciples, were given the ability to understand which could only come from God. We cannot understand scriptures without the Holy Spirit in us.

Amen - I couldn't agree with you more and I love the way you put it - but you need to understand the other side of the coin too!


Quote:
Luke 21

21 At that same time Jesus was filled with the joy of the Holy Spirit, and he said, “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike. Yes, Father, it pleased you to do it this way.

22 “My Father has entrusted everything to me. No one truly knows the Son except the Father, and no one truly knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

23 Then when they were alone, he turned to the disciples and said, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you have seen. 24 I tell you, many prophets and kings longed to see what you see, but they didn’t see it. And they longed to hear what you hear, but they didn’t hear it.”

Scriptures tell us that Jesus came for the lost, NOT the righteous. And no one comes to Jesus unless they are drawn. So this passage is in keeping with that line of thought.

Amen!


Quote:
Jesus didn't come for those who were self-righteous and arrogant and unable to see their own sins such as we see with the religious leaders of His time. They blinded themselves through their own pride in this way and God always gives us what we ask for...meaning He allowed them and even enhanced their blindness knowing their hearts and knowing they would not seek repentance...

Exactly - Scripture tells us that God hardened their hearts! We need to understand that such rebellion and rejection of Him incurs His righteous wrath - do you accept the Scriptures on His wrath that I quoted? Do you accept that God is jealous and zealous for His own glory?

I understand the judgment and wrath of God against those that rebel against Him, but it kind of bothers me you keep pressing me to accept these to see if I believe in the God of the bible as you put it. No I don't think God is some big teddy bear in Heaven that will pat people on the head that rebelled against Him and say its ok if that is what you are wondering. But I also know there is more to God then just wrath and anger. I personally don't like single verse or partial verses laid out the way you have them though. As far as God being jealous...that means He is passionate about us!

http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T4881
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
jel'-us-i (qin'ah; zelos):

Doubtless, the root idea of both the Greek and the Hob translated "jealousy" is "warmth," "heat." Both are used in a good and a bad sense--to represent right and wrong passion.

When jealousy is attributed to God, the word is used in a good sense. The language is, of course, anthropomorphic; and it is based upon the feeling in a husband of exclusive right in his wife. God is conceived as having wedded Israel to Himself, and as claiming, therefore, exclusive devotion. Disloyalty on the part of Israel is represented as adultery, and as provoking God to jealousy. See, e.g., Deuteronomy 32:16,21; 1 Kings 14:22; Psalms 78:58; Ezekiel 8:3; 16:38,42; 23:25; 36:5; 38:19.



Quote:
while at the same time opening the hearts and minds of those seeking such as in this case with the disciples. If you notice He goes on to say even the prophets did not see (understand) what the disciples were allowed to understand. God was working some real miracles here!

Again, couldn't agree with you more!


Quote:
If you really want to that that proverbs as it being God laughing and mocking then you need to explain why He is being referred too as a 'she'.

Because in wisdom literature, virtues like wisdom are often personified as being female (think of The Muses). You cannot separate wisdom from God - they are synonymous - why would Solomon exhort "his son" to seek wisdom instead of God? If you replace the word "wisdom" with "the Lord" in most of the verses (except eg "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom"), then it should become clear - and you haven't answered my challenge that Christ is the wisdom of God and has become for us wisdom from God.




Quote:
God bless
And you too!

Nigel

sorry I could finish answering this...out of time..have to get my son from school ..more later.

moonglow
Apr 30th 2008, 03:12 AM
9Marksfan...sorry I couldn't get back on here and finish my post to you...had to get my son from school then take him to the doctor...he has a sinus infection but not sick, sick yet...caught it early. Then he had a school musical this evening. Tomorrow morning I am headed out to the city to take things to my sister for a garage sale and not sure when I will be back. Only had a short time on the board this evening and I was way to tired to focus on this...

So hopefully we can get back on track tomorrow!

God bless

9Marksfan
May 1st 2008, 10:14 PM
9Marksfan

I think that is your opinion and I don't see God described in such a way as this.

I will say more but I believe my understanding of the scorn God pours on man's pathetic attempts to be as good and as big as God are entirely biblical.


If we were so puny why did He love us enough to send His Son to die for our sins.

So do you think that He sent Jesus to die for our sins because there was something good in us?!?


I think we need to remember is not 'us' against them...and looking down on nonbelievers isn't right...especially since we were once in their place!

I'm not saying we ought to look down on unbelievers - as you say, we were ALL there once! But we need to realise that the wrath of God is being stored up for them if they don't repent! And they should therefore kiss the Son, lest He be angry with them....


The worse I see God saying towards those prideful people is that they are foolish.

1 Corinthians 1:19-21

19 As the Scriptures say,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise
and discard the intelligence of the intelligent.”

20 So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world’s brilliant debaters? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish. 21 Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never know him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save those who believe.


Who were the wicked He was referring too though? It wasn't nonbelievers. It was those that claimed to believe in God.

No - he's writing about Jews AND Greeks - it's as much the pagan Greek philosophers that he's referring to as anyone else....


it was the Jewish religious leaders that were so prideful and thought themselves sinless.

But they weren't true believers - they were children of the Devil!


The bible shows us God doesn't just go around blinding people for the heck of it...He only blinds those already blind by their OWN choosing. As I said, He gives them what they want. Jesus was joyful I believe, because He was seeing God at work in this and more importantly, in opening the eyes of His disciples so they might see and understand. Until Jesus came all the disciple had to go by were what the corrupt Jewish leaders were teaching. Read Matthew 23. These religious leaders were leading people straight to hell. God stopped that process so of course, Jesus rejoiced.

Granted, but He also rejoiced that the truth was HIDDEN from the wise - THAT'S my point!


If I am misunderstanding it how I can explain it to you? :confused

Sorry - typo - didn't mean to put the "m" in - so what is your understanding?


I understand the judgment and wrath of God against those that rebel against Him, but it kind of bothers me you keep pressing me to accept these to see if I believe in the God of the bible as you put it.

That's because you keep shying away from the God of wrath, who is actually spoken of FAR MORE than the God of love we all love to emphasise - I'm trying to get you to have a balanced view of how the Bible portrays the RIGHTEOUS character of God AS A WHOLE!


No I don't think God is some big teddy bear in Heaven that will pat people on the head that rebelled against Him and say its ok if that is what you are wondering. But I also know there is more to God then just wrath and anger.

You seem dismissive of it - it is a TERRIFYING reality that should make ALL believers quake when they speak of it - our God is a CONSUMING FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I personally don't like single verse or partial verses laid out the way you have them though.

Why not? Is any one of them out of context? I thought the post was long enough, but if you'd like me to quote longer texts, I'll happily do so. You can rest assured that they are only a small sample of the numerous verses in both OT and NT that speak of God's holy wrath. Do you find using Scripture to back up one's argument somehow offensive?


As far as God being jealous...that means He is passionate about us!

He is - but He is MORE passionate about Himself and His glory!


http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T4881
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
jel'-us-i (qin'ah; zelos):

Doubtless, the root idea of both the Greek and the Hob translated "jealousy" is "warmth," "heat." Both are used in a good and a bad sense--to represent right and wrong passion.

When jealousy is attributed to God, the word is used in a good sense. The language is, of course, anthropomorphic; and it is based upon the feeling in a husband of exclusive right in his wife. God is conceived as having wedded Israel to Himself, and as claiming, therefore, exclusive devotion. Disloyalty on the part of Israel is represented as adultery, and as provoking God to jealousy. See, e.g., Deuteronomy 32:16,21; 1 Kings 14:22; Psalms 78:58; Ezekiel 8:3; 16:38,42; 23:25; 36:5; 38:19.

These Scripturs are all true, but they don't address the fact that God is supremely jealous for His own glory:-

You shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me Ex 20:5 NKJV

(For you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God) Ex 34:14 NKJV

For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. Deut 4:24 NKJV

You shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me Deut 5:9 NKJV

You shall not go after other gods, the gods of the peoples who are all around you (for the LORD your God is a jealous God among you), lest the anger of the LORD your God be aroused against you and destroy you from the face of the earth. Deut 6:14-15 NKJV

They provoked Him to jealousy with foreign gods; with abominations they provoked Him to anger......"They have provoked Me to jealousy by what is not God.....They have moved Me to anger by their foolish idols. But I will provoke them to jealousy by those who are not a nation; I will move them to anger by a foolish nation." Deut 32:16, 21 NKJV

And I will judge you as women who break wedlock or shed blood are judged; I will bring blood upon you in fury and jealousy. Ezek 16:38 NKJV

I will set My jealousy against you... Ezek 23:25a NKJV

“Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, and the valleys, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and My fury, because you have borne the shame of the nations.” Ezek 36:6 NKJV

In all these passages, God's jealousy is for His glory - He will NOT share it with another, because He's GOD! To do so would make him LESS THAN God!

moonglow
May 2nd 2008, 02:30 AM
You know what 9Marksfan I really don't care for the tone you have taken towards me in this thread and I have decided to not respond to you anymore regarding it. I feel as if you are accusing me of something and I don't appreciate it one bit. You seem to be reading into what I have said...such as I never said we were 'good' and deserved God's mercy. I simply said, He loved us enough to send His Son for us. I am sorry you have injected alot of wrong ideas into my post...I wish folks wouldn't do that and simply take what I say as what I say and nothing more.

end of discussion.

9Marksfan
May 2nd 2008, 08:52 AM
You know what 9Marksfan I really don't care for the tone you have taken towards me in this thread and I have decided to not respond to you anymore regarding it. I feel as if you are accusing me of something and I don't appreciate it one bit. You seem to be reading into what I have said...such as I never said we were 'good' and deserved God's mercy. I simply said, He loved us enough to send His Son for us. I am sorry you have injected alot of wrong ideas into my post...I wish folks wouldn't do that and simply take what I say as what I say and nothing more.

end of discussion.

I'm genuinely sorry you feel that way, moonglow - it wasn't intended at all - please forgive me for any offence I caused.

Blessings.

Nigel