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2 Peter 2:20
Apr 29th 2008, 12:28 AM
I just had a conversation with a friend next door and I was shocked to hear that her church looks down on anyone who misses a church service. She told me it is considered a sin. This level of legalism is not new to me but it still strikes me as odd. On top of that her church doesn't believe in children playing sports or going out to eat on Sundays.

Just for conversation I would like to know everyone's thoughts on the subject. Like how many times a week the church is required to meet...etc. I have my own answers but I would like to pick some brains!

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 12:31 AM
Well, I always heard it said that...

Those that love the church go to church on Sunday mornings.
Those that love the pastor go to church on Sunday evenings.
Those that love God go to church on Wednesday night.

Yep. We are in a volunteer organization and folks measure Godliness by church attendance. It's pure bunk. Jesus went to church 1 time a week, as was his habit. The early church met every day. Go how ever many times you want to go. Just don't forsake the assembly. It's certainly no measure of Godliness if one goes to 3 or more services a week or if one attends just 1 service a week.

karenoka27
Apr 29th 2008, 12:39 AM
A friend of mine once said that there are no rewards in heaven for perfect attendance...I liked that.

I love going to church..I love sitting and listening to and about God's Word..but I can't always be there, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to heaven!

It's sad that churches would keep a record of such things or even use guilt to get people into churches...we should go because we want to be there!

Psalm 122:1-"I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the LORD.

2 Peter 2:20
Apr 29th 2008, 12:48 AM
Well, I always heard it said that...

Those that love the church go to church on Sunday mornings.
Those that love the pastor go to church on Sunday evenings.
Those that love God go to church on Wednesday night.

Yep. We are in a volunteer organization and folks measure Godliness by church attendance. It's pure bunk. Jesus went to church 1 time a week, as was his habit. The early church met every day. Go how ever many times you want to go. Just don't forsake the assembly. It's certainly no measure of Godliness if one goes to 3 or more services a week or if one attends just 1 service a week.

I've never heard that quote before...now that's funny:lol:

It troubles me that people would set under that kind of teaching but I find that those who do let the preacher dictate to them what is right and wrong instead of getting in there and finding some answers to make sure everything that is being taught is lining up with scripture. I have been invited to this church before but I have never gone. Thank God for that!

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 12:50 AM
I've never heard that quote before...now that's funny:lol:

It troubles me that people would set under that kind of teaching but I find that those who do let the preacher dictate to them what is right and wrong instead of getting in there and finding some answers to make sure everything that is being taught is lining up with scripture. I have been invited to this church before but I have never gone. Thank God for that!

Oh yea, I grew up in that junk. Shoot, they hated TVs, public schools, pants on women and many other things. Even going to the county fair was frowned upon by some. I could go on and on but you get the picture.

2 Peter 2:20
Apr 29th 2008, 12:51 AM
A friend of mine once said that there are no rewards in heaven for perfect attendance...I liked that.

I love going to church..I love sitting and listening to and about God's Word..but I can't always be there, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to heaven!

It's sad that churches would keep a record of such things or even use guilt to get people into churches...we should go because we want to be there!

Psalm 122:1-"I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the LORD.

Another good quote...I like it too!

2 Peter 2:20
Apr 29th 2008, 12:57 AM
Oh yea, I grew up in that junk. Shoot, they hated TVs, public schools, pants on women and many other things. Even going to the county fair was frowned upon by some. I could go on and on but you get the picture.

How do they reconcile it with scripture? Are you telling me that several hundred people can set and listen to those kind of things and never question it? Surely there are some Bible scholars there that know what is being taught is wrong.

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 01:03 AM
How do they reconcile it with scripture? Are you telling me that several hundred people can set and listen to those kind of things and never question it? Surely there are some Bible scholars there that know what is being taught is wrong.

Well, folks will say things like "Don't be like the world. The world does X so you should not." Or they will say something along the lines of "if you love God, you will give him all of everything including your time. Be here on Wednesday." "Loving God and your kids, you will not subject them to public school." Sometimes they will speak of respect. "Don't run in the church, this is God's house. Respect it." I could go on and on.

The language is manipulative. But keep in mind, the people sitting believe it too. So it's not just the preacher. It's the whole church that has a like mind.

2 Peter 2:20
Apr 29th 2008, 01:08 AM
Well, folks will say things like "Don't be like the world. The world does X so you should not." Or they will say something along the lines of "if you love God, you will give him all of everything including your time. Be here on Wednesday." "Loving God and your kids, you will not subject them to public school." Sometimes they will speak of respect. "Don't run in the church, this is God's house. Respect it." I could go on and on.

The language is manipulative. But keep in mind, the people sitting believe it too. So it's not just the preacher. It's the whole church that has a like mind.

But does it ultimately boil down to lack of studying scripture and just listening to what someone else is telling them?

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 01:09 AM
But does it ultimately boil down to lack of studying scripture and just listening to what someone else is telling them?

I know a man who practically memorized the scriptures and yet he was legalistic. How much of the scriptures do you think the pharisees knew?

It comes down to deception not lack of study.

2 Peter 2:20
Apr 29th 2008, 01:14 AM
I know a man who practically memorized the scriptures and yet he was legalistic. How much of the scriptures do you think the pharisees knew?

It comes down to deception not lack of study.

Very true!! They know scripture but they don't know scripture. This would be where I would say they have eyes to see but they are blind and they have ears to hear but they are deaf to the true meaning of scripture.

Not that I have it all figured out but I'm trying.

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 01:17 AM
Very true!! They know scripture but they don't know scripture. This would be where I would say they have eyes to see but they are blind and they have ears to hear but they are deaf to the true meaning of scripture.

Exactly. It is close to bible worship. Searching the scriptures for salvation all the while missing that the scriptures are about the heart of God. Oh, they get salvation right. But they miss most everything else.

Saved7
Apr 29th 2008, 01:53 AM
My response would be to tell this individual to show me where that particular sin is mentioned in the scriptures. It's simply NOT a sin, it's just a warning for the sake of the believer not to FORSAKE the assembly. Meaning, try not to miss gathering together with the saints because it will be difficult to maintain your walk. NO where in the bible does it EVER call missing church a SIN.
That sort of mind set always flabbergasts me, don't people read their bibles?

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 01:59 AM
My response would be to tell this individual to show me where that particular sin is mentioned in the scriptures. It's simply NOT a sin, it's just a warning for the sake of the believer not to FORSAKE the assembly. Meaning, try not to miss gathering together with the saints because it will be difficult to maintain your walk. NO where in the bible does it EVER call missing church a SIN.
That sort of mind set always flabbergasts me, don't people read their bibles?

It's not about reading the bible. It's about blindness. Look at the context of the verse...

Heb 10:23-26
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near.

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
NASB

They will tell you that God immediately talks about sinning after he talks about forsaking. Also, they will say if God says not to forsake the assembly then it is a sin to do so. They will then define forsaking the assembly as missing Wednesday night. Oh, now there are exceptions. If you have to work or are sick, that's OK. Because in your heart you want to be there. But if you skip Sunday morning church to go fishing, you have forsaken church that morning.

They know their bibles well. It's not about reading them. Like Jesus said of the pharisees, they search the bible.

karenoka27
Apr 29th 2008, 02:04 AM
I know a man who practically memorized the scriptures and yet he was legalistic. How much of the scriptures do you think the pharisees knew?

It comes down to deception not lack of study.
Mark that's a good point..and how much Scripture do you think Satan knows? A lot I'm sure..he even tried to use it on Jesus!
Matthew 4:5-6-"Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone."

I'm sure Satan does all he can to manipulate Scripture...maybe he couldn't stop some from being saved, but he can sure try to make those that are, miserable about their choice..it's so sad. We have been called to a life of grace and mercy and yet some Christians find themselves in such bondage..to a church service nonetheless.

RobbieP
Apr 29th 2008, 02:22 AM
I don't think it is a sin...the working on Sunday (which I imagine is the reason they don't go out to eat) is borderline for me. I shop on Sundays so if it's not scriptual I'm also wrong...but I find if hypocritical of me to tell my work that I won't work Sundays...yet I go to places on Sunday that require people to work...Ya know what I mean?


As for church service, it's up to the person but what I am finding I want to go because I love it and it is also a way to get the Word into the family...and I'm finding it hard to find a church that has anymore than Sunday service because nobody shows up the rest of the time......so all those folks that didn't think it was needed....it was stopped and now those who would like to go----it's gone! How's that...a family wants to go to church and can't find one....mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Does that make me too legalistic...I'm not begrudging those that don't go but look what it's done to some of these smaller churches...

Is part of church supporting the leaders and encouaging them to have it?

aurora77
Apr 29th 2008, 02:25 AM
Was God being too legalistic in giving us the 10 commandments? We're to keep the Sabbath holy, what better way to do that than by going to church? It does seem to me to be a bit odd to be a devout Christian and intentionally not go to church. Nowhere in the Bible is Wednesday night mentioned, maybe that one's optional. ;)

Jamey
Apr 29th 2008, 02:36 AM
Don't we miss the whole point of what church is? If we are the church, then what does it mean to forsake church? Does it mean missing a meeting on Sunday or does it mean to stop fellowshipping with Christ? That is something we should do everyday. My pastor father-inlaw loves to point out (tongue in cheek I think) when I go fishing on a Sunday (after our meeting) that all I will catch is the devil. I remind him I"m under the new covenant.
J.

ddmor
Apr 29th 2008, 04:03 AM
I find the term 'legalist' somewhat offensive. Yes - I go to a church that encourages church attendance, and questions that if we're too busy for church, then how can we be giving our best to God? And - I tell students in my Bible classes that we want to be pleasing to God, and does it please Him when we set aside 3 hours a week for Him (or doesn't it)? To me 3 hours a week to praise and worship God and encourage my brothers and sisters is just a drop in the bucket - we should be giving much more than that for His Work!

Luke 17:7 "And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come at once and sit down to eat'?
17:8 "But will he not rather say to him, 'Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink'?
17:9 "Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not.
17:10 "So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.' "


Here is where I say - why only do that which you were commanded? Why not rather do all you can do to be pleasing to Him?

I know that this opinion isn't going to be popular ... and that's alright. I understand where you're coming from and you're correct, I can't argue from the silence of the scriptures. However, I have ask to tone down your judgements a bit ... yes - you're judging me and my church just as badly as the other way around. I've learned not to say 'you have to go to church if you want to be faithful', but please don't think that just because we encourage church attendance makes us 'legalistic'.

Church is what God set up to help us become strong Christians, it's a place to go to re-charge our batteries. I agree that there are some people who are strong and don't need church - but most people are hanging on by the tips of their fingertips, and so the strong helps the weak - that's God's plan for church, what HE set up for US. What does Paul say? 1THES 5:11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing. How can we do that if we're not at church?

You might not need to go to church everytime the door is opened, but someone at church might need you.

torazon
Apr 29th 2008, 04:57 AM
I just had a conversation with a friend next door and I was shocked to hear that her church looks down on anyone who misses a church service. She told me it is considered a sin. This level of legalism is not new to me but it still strikes me as odd. On top of that her church doesn't believe in children playing sports or going out to eat on Sundays.

Just for conversation I would like to know everyone's thoughts on the subject. Like how many times a week the church is required to meet...etc. I have my own answers but I would like to pick some brains!

Making a blanket statement like that is just silly. There are plenty of people that go to church "faithfully', never miss a service that are there purely for show. I believe attending church is important as God tells us to gather. But to suggest that if I miss a service for any reason is a sin, is folly. I do think we should keep an eye on one another. If a member stops showing up we should reach out to them, but not to brow beat them. We should reach out in love ALWAYS.

I do try to keep the sabbath myself. I do not shop, go out to eat or work.

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 01:28 PM
I find the term 'legalist' somewhat offensive. Yes - I go to a church that encourages church attendance, and questions that if we're too busy for church, then how can we be giving our best to God?

Does that question not bother you? "If we are too busy for church, then how can we be giving our best for God?" It makes many assumptions and is a loaded question.


And - I tell students in my Bible classes that we want to be pleasing to God, and does it please Him when we set aside 3 hours a week for Him (or doesn't it)? To me 3 hours a week to praise and worship God and encourage my brothers and sisters is just a drop in the bucket - we should be giving much more than that for His Work! But consider, there are many things that please God along with attendance of church services. God pretty much instituted 1 meeting a week but didn't discourage the early apostles or early church from meeting every day of the week. Look deeper at those questions. They are designed to make one feel guilty for not attending a service. Yet, the meeting time and place was designed by man. If we are living in the presence of God continually, is it possible that perhaps he has something for us other than church attendance on wednesday or sunday night?


Here is where I say - why only do that which you were commanded? Why not rather do all you can do to be pleasing to Him? Exactly! But why do we think that church on Wednesday and Sunday night pleases Him more than something else?



I know that this opinion isn't going to be popular ... and that's alright. I understand where you're coming from and you're correct, I can't argue from the silence of the scriptures. However, I have ask to tone down your judgements a bit ... yes - you're judging me and my church just as badly as the other way around. I've learned not to say 'you have to go to church if you want to be faithful', but please don't think that just because we encourage church attendance makes us 'legalistic'. I cannot judge the heart of the church. But certainly, I can see the words that are spoken and the expectations! If a church places expectations on me that God did not (the silence of scriptures) then who is placing themselves as commander and judge?


Church is what God set up to help us become strong Christians, it's a place to go to re-charge our batteries. I agree that there are some people who are strong and don't need church - but most people are hanging on by the tips of their fingertips, and so the strong helps the weak - that's God's plan for church, what HE set up for US. What does Paul say? 1THES 5:11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing. How can we do that if we're not at church?God told us not to forsake the assembly of ourselves together! I think that we need a church to be healthy. But also, we go for Him!


You might not need to go to church everytime the door is opened, but someone at church might need you.Absolutely! And of course, there may be someone else that needs us elsewhere. But we find times when Jesus pulled away from the crowd even though they needed him. He went to spend time alone with God.

When I was a child, my church had Sunday night services, a visitation night generally on Monday or Tuesday, Wednesday night services, and Saturday night services, sunday night training union for bible study, Sunday morning worship and Sunday morning sunday school.

The families didn't end up doing so well in the church. After being driven for a few years to perform, some families began to break under the strain.

There is nothing wrong with encouraging folks to attend church. But if we measure their spirituality by it, or we expect it out of them, then we have moved into a place where we don't belong. We need to be careful not to use guilt or manipulation to try and get folks to do what God doesn't speak to directly in his word.

Whispering Grace
Apr 29th 2008, 01:34 PM
I can't fathom wanting to be doing anything else more than being in church with my brothers and sisters in Christ worshiping the Lord.

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 01:35 PM
I can't fathom wanting to be doing anything else more than being in church with my brothers and sisters in Christ worshiping the Lord.

But yet, God told Phillip to leave a great revival and go and speak to the Ethiopian eunich. Church is AWESOME. But it is not the main thing.

Whispering Grace
Apr 29th 2008, 01:38 PM
But yet, God told Phillip to leave a great revival and go and speak to the Ethiopian eunich. Church is AWESOME. But it is not the main thing.

I guess I don't understand.....for most people, church is only an hour or so long (I'm Pentecostal Holiness, so that doesn't apply to me :lol:), so I'm not understanding what the big deal is. There are 24 hours in the day. If we can't "sacrifice" a few hours a week to spend in corporate worship, there is something wrong.

daughter
Apr 29th 2008, 01:38 PM
Exactly. It is close to bible worship. Searching the scriptures for salvation all the while missing that the scriptures are about the heart of God. Oh, they get salvation right. But they miss most everything else.
Someone remind me... where's the verse where Jesus says, "you search the scriptures, thinking that herein is eternal life, but all the while your hearts are far from me?"

I've probably quoted that wrong...

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 01:39 PM
I guess I don't understand.....for most people, church is only an hour or so long (I'm Pentecostal Holiness, so that doesn't apply to me :lol:), so I'm not understanding what the bid deal is. There are 24 hours in the day. If we can't "sacrifice" a few hours a week to spend in corporate worship, there is something wrong.

Anything that God doesn't move me to do is a dead work. We assume that God is moving all his children to attend every service. We know from Scripture that isn't true. The point is, that his children are not our servants. We must leave room for them to follow His lead in all of life, including attending a wednesday night or saturday night or any other night of the week meeting.

Whispering Grace
Apr 29th 2008, 01:40 PM
Anything that God doesn't move me to do is a dead work. We assume that God is moving all his children to attend every service. We know from Scripture that isn't true. The point is, that his children are not our servants. We must leave room for them to follow His lead in all of life, including attending a wednesday night or saturday night or any other night of the week meeting.

I guess my question is WHY wouldn't anyone want to go and worship the Lord? It doesn't make sense to me.

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 01:43 PM
Someone remind me... where's the verse where Jesus says, "you search the scriptures, thinking that herein is eternal life, but all the while your hearts are far from me?"

I've probably quoted that wrong...

That's a scary passage indeed!


John 5:39-41
39 "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.
NASB

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 01:45 PM
I guess my question is WHY wouldn't anyone want to go and worship the Lord? It doesn't make sense to me.

Because God hasn't quickened them to do so. Because God told them to do something else. Perhaps the church has issues. There are countless reasons that might be Godly reasons a person decides or desires to do something else on a wednesday night. One doesn't have to be in church to worship.

Whispering Grace
Apr 29th 2008, 01:52 PM
Because God hasn't quickened them to do so. Because God told them to do something else. Perhaps the church has issues. There are countless reasons that might be Godly reasons a person decides or desires to do something else on a wednesday night. One doesn't have to be in church to worship.

I still don't get it. Why wouldn't God want us in church with our brethren worshiping Him? Why would God lead us to do something at that exact time when we have 24 hours in the day and seven days in the week?

I guess I don't understand needing to be "quickened" by the Lord to go to church. It should be an innate desire in us.

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 01:57 PM
I still don't get it. Why wouldn't God want us in church with our brethren worshiping Him? Why would God lead us to do something at that exact time when we have 24 hours in the day and seven days in the week?

I guess I don't understand needing to be "quickened" by the Lord to go to church. It should be an innate desire in us.

Phillip led a great revival. The Lord was moving, but God told him to leave. Why? Because of the Ethiopian.

In the early church, when God fell on them, they didn't want to leave Jerusalem. So God had to send persecution to scatter them in order for them to keep the command "Go ye into all the world".

Perhaps God is using the freedom of a man to teach the church he is attending about following the Spirit of the Lord in all things. Who knows what the Lord is up to with that individual.

Finally, Jesus, as was his custom, went to synagogue on the Sabbath. We can follow the custom of God. But when man creates a custom, then thinks others should follow that custom, man has stepped out of line.

A dead work is doing anything outside of faith. Jesus said "I only do what the Father tells me to do". The assumption we too often make is that we know what God is telling someone else to do. They are not our servants, they are HIS servants. If he tells them to go fishing with their son on Sunday afternoon instead of attending church, then they answer to Him, not to me. Who am I to tell another man how to serve his Master? He knows his master's voice. That is between the two of them.

When IIIIIIIIIIIIIII try to tell another man that he should desire to be in church on wednesday night, IIIIIIIIIIII am placing myself as his Master and IIIIIIIIIIIII am out of line. That is something God has to tell the other man, not me.

ProjectPeter
Apr 29th 2008, 01:59 PM
I've no problem at all with folks stressing the importance of church attendance because it is important. Now the "it's a sin" thing can be a bit sketchy because what happens if I do have a legit reason to miss and yet feel condemned because I am not there? And while I wouldn't... there are others that would take it to that level and I've seen that over the years.

So it should be stressed as important. It is important. But it should be rightly expressed.

Whispering Grace
Apr 29th 2008, 02:02 PM
If he tells them to go fishing with their son on Sunday afternoon instead of attending church, then they answer to Him, not to me.

Sure they do, but I still don't get it.

Why not go fishing on Saturday and take the boy to church on Sunday? What message am I sending to my kids if I choose to fish instead of going to church?

ProjectPeter
Apr 29th 2008, 02:03 PM
Phillip led a great revival. The Lord was moving, but God told him to leave. Why? Because of the Ethiopian.

In the early church, when God fell on them, they didn't want to leave Jerusalem. So God had to send persecution to scatter them in order for them to keep the command "Go ye into all the world".

Perhaps God is using the freedom of a man to teach the church he is attending about following the Spirit of the Lord in all things. Who knows what the Lord is up to with that individual.

Finally, Jesus, as was his custom, went to synagogue on the Sabbath. We can follow the custom of God. But when man creates a custom, then thinks others should follow that custom, man has stepped out of line.

A dead work is doing anything outside of faith. Jesus said "I only do what the Father tells me to do". The assumption we too often make is that we know what God is telling someone else to do. They are not our servants, they are HIS servants. If he tells them to go fishing with their son on Sunday afternoon instead of attending church, then they answer to Him, not to me. Who am I to tell another man how to serve his Master? He knows his master's voice. That is between the two of them.

When IIIIIIIIIIIIIII try to tell another man that he should desire to be in church on wednesday night, IIIIIIIIIIII am placing myself as his Master and IIIIIIIIIIIII am out of line. That is something God has to tell the other man, not me.
I'm not sure that we can rightly compare Philip the evangelist with the average congregation that attends church though. Not sure we are doing the topic justice in that. Even with the persecution of Jerusalem. It wasn't that God was getting them outside of the church so as to not fellowship... they simply started fellowships elsewhere.

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 02:07 PM
Sure they do, but I still don't get it.

Why not go fishing on Saturday and take the boy to church on Sunday? What message am I sending to my kids if I choose to fish instead of going to church?

Because God said take him on Sunday. ;)

Let me speak even more plain. Let us not presume we know what God is telling another man. He is not your servant. He is God's servant.

There are many things I can teach my kids about God by choosing to fish one day instead of taking them to church that day. One would be not to be bound by the tradition that man has established for church attendance. But instead, to do all things as unto the Lord. If I attend church because the church thinks it's the right thing to do, I have attended church for the wrong reason!!!!

We know not the responsibilities in life that God gives each man. We know our own. Here is a verse that every child of God should memorize.

John 21:21-23
21 Peter therefore seeing him said to Jesus, "Lord, and what about this man?" 22 Jesus said to him, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!"
NASB

Another man's walk with the Lord is none of my business so long as it is not sinful. Choosing to not attend church on Wednesday night is not sinful.

2 Peter 2:20
Apr 29th 2008, 02:07 PM
I find the term 'legalist' somewhat offensive. Yes - I go to a church that encourages church attendance, and questions that if we're too busy for church, then how can we be giving our best to God?

The legalist term shouldn't be offensive to you if it doesn't apply to you. Yes, all churches should encourage attendance. That is not my point.



I know that this opinion isn't going to be popular ... and that's alright. I understand where you're coming from and you're correct, I can't argue from the silence of the scriptures. However, I have ask to tone down your judgements a bit ... yes - you're judging me and my church just as badly as the other way around. I've learned not to say 'you have to go to church if you want to be faithful', but please don't think that just because we encourage church attendance makes us 'legalistic'.


I only say that if a church says it is a sin to miss church then I will go out on a limb and say that they are wrong. If you want that to be judging then I am judging. If your church does that then it applies and if your church doesn't then it doesn't apply.


Church is what God set up to help us become strong Christians, it's a place to go to re-charge our batteries. I agree that there are some people who are strong and don't need church - but most people are hanging on by the tips of their fingertips, and so the strong helps the weak - that's God's plan for church, what HE set up for US. What does Paul say? 1THES 5:11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing. How can we do that if we're not at church?

Agreed. The church should be teaching those that are weak ways to become strong. That the Bible says that the temple of God is within believers and not in a building. They have access to God 24/7/365 and not only on Sunday and Wednesday. Maybe forcing them to church hurts them more than helps them for they might be doing it reluctantly rather than willfully. Maybe their schedule is so busy that they can't make it on Wednesday night from 7 to 8 but they could make it from 5 to 6. Fellowship is vital and I understand that completely but we must condemn those who don't go every single time the doors open.


I don't go to church right now but I do fellowship with co-workers, neighbors and with those on this forum. Does that count or do I have to walk into a building that has a pulpit and pews to be able to fellowship with my brothers in Christ?

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 02:10 PM
I'm not sure that we can rightly compare Philip the evangelist with the average congregation that attends church though. Not sure we are doing the topic justice in that. Even with the persecution of Jerusalem. It wasn't that God was getting them outside of the church so as to not fellowship... they simply started fellowships elsewhere.

You are right. But the point is a good one that I made. The question was why wouldn't anyone want to be in Church and implied within that, enjoying the presence of God.

I know of times when God moved on the preacher to help one in need and that his congregation we left waiting for him. Then God was able to preach through example. God will move one away from a church service to do something important to him.

I am not speaking of abandoning worship PP. I am speaking of leaving a move of God while following the hand of God.

But I am also speaking that Wednesday night service is a tradition of man. It's fine if we wish to walk in that and enjoy the fellowship. But if we assume that God requires or encourages every man of his to attend a wednesday night fellowship, we assume too much!

Whispering Grace
Apr 29th 2008, 02:15 PM
If I attend church because the church thinks it's the right thing to do, I have attended church for the wrong reason!!!!

I hate to sound like a broken record (CD? :lol:), but I'm not saying we should attend church because "it's the right thing to do". I don't understand NOT wanting to go to church. It makes no sense to me.

I think fishing with my kids would be wonderful. I just don't understand why in the world it would have to replace church. Seriously, if I'm too busy to fish and make it to church, I'm too busy, period!

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 02:21 PM
I hate to sound like a broken record (CD? :lol:), but I'm not saying we should attend church because "it's the right thing to do". I don't understand NOT wanting to go to church. It makes no sense to me.

I think fishing with my kids would be wonderful. I just don't understand why in the world it had to replace church. Seriously, if I'm too busy to fish and make it to church, I'm too busy!

If we are so busy attending church and enjoying God that we can't hear him tell us to "spend time with your son today, just you and him. I wish for you and him and me to do this today instead of going to Sunday night service."

I never said anything at all about NOT wanting to attend services. But now, I will address that. Jesus went to synagogue and they weren't so up to snuff on God. Shoot, when he began to speak at them, they tried to kill him by pushing him of a cliff! I will attend church even if they are not all that I desire them to be. But if you think my most precious times with God are at church, then you would be wrong.

My deepest desire is to please God! If he tells me to do something else, then I will do that! Man came up with times for services. That is man's thing. Does God use it, you betcha. Do I go on wednesday nights? Yep. Do I think others less spiritual if they do not attend on wednesday nights? No way. Can God tell a man to go fishing on a Sunday evening? Oh yes. It would not be the first nor will it be the last. Why would he tell a man to do that? Who knows but God. Often God will tell us why.

The point is, we follow God. We go to his leanings. What God is telling another man, I know not about. What he is telling me, that I know of. He has said nothing about Wednesday night or Sunday night church attendance in his word. Should we choose to meet any day of the week, we can do so. The custom of our Lord was to meet once a week in the synagogue.

The point is, God can and does tell people to not attend services. He's done it before and he will do it again. God did not institute wednesday night or sunday night services at most churches.

RobbieP
Apr 29th 2008, 02:24 PM
Excellent post DDMOR!!!! This person saying what they said may not be correct but attending church faithfully is not legalism.



God is absolutely there all the time and when we seek Him He is there....Not only did He die on the cross for me but He lives for me. I love studying His word, I love being in the church with fellow believers, it's my escape from the world...I grow under Biblical study, my husband grows...we grow closer to Him because we know Him better...

Yet, somehow it's become legalism...My new church doesn't have Sunday school in the summer...I was shocked...then reprimanded to spend the time with my family....I love my family, but on Sunday morning , if I sit at the beach...my heart will still feel sad because I'm not worshipping our Lord...

I'm sorry for being so passionate...I love Him and I love the escape from the world to be with His people...And spending Sunday for Him is not too much ...it just isn't....I don't frown on people who don't feel the same way though..I really don't......I know some strong Christians leaning towards making Sunday a family day.........I just wish it wasn't my church elders!

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 02:27 PM
I'm sorry for being so passionate...I love Him and I love the escape from the world to be with His people...And spending Sunday for Him is not too much ...it just isn't....I don't frown on people who don't feel the same way though..I really don't..

And that is the key. We each have our different passions for the Lord. Yet, we are part of a body. Let not the hand say to the foot "why can you not be more like me". There in is the legalism. It's when man expects all men to be as he is and to honor the code he has established for himself that legalism rears it's ugly head.

Whispering Grace
Apr 29th 2008, 02:28 PM
I know some strong Christians leaning towards making Sunday a family day.........I just wish it wasn't my church elders!

Sunday SHOULD be a family day....we should be together as a family in church worshiping the Lord. :)

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 02:29 PM
Sunday SHOULD be a family day....we should be together as a family in church worshiping the Lord. :)

And that is legalism. Who says Sunday is the day to worship?

2 Peter 2:20
Apr 29th 2008, 02:34 PM
I hate to sound like a broken record (CD? :lol:), but I'm not saying we should attend church because "it's the right thing to do". I don't understand NOT wanting to go to church. It makes no sense to me.

I think fishing with my kids would be wonderful. I just don't understand why in the world it would have to replace church. Seriously, if I'm too busy to fish and make it to church, I'm too busy, period!

I think you love the church you attend and praise God for that but some of us have been in churches that were not as lovely. We have had to quit going to some of these churches because of the teachings of man and not the teachings of God. I myself have been to at least a dozen different churches trying to find the correct one. This has been very hard and has troubled me not because I'm not going to church but because so many people are being led by denominational doctrines and not by the Spirit of God. I will not set in such a church just so I can say I go to church every service.

I live everyday the same and that is to honor God in everything that I do...I try. I cut the grass on Sunday if it needs cut or I wash my truck if it needs washed but while I'm out there my mind is usually on scripture or a hymn. Some of my best alone time with God has been done during this time. God is with us all the time and we don't need the alter to be able to speak to Him.

Whispering Grace
Apr 29th 2008, 02:35 PM
And that is legalism.

I don't believe it is.

It is absurd to me for a church to proclaim Sunday as "family day" and cancel church.

Why not cancel all of the cutesy little kids programs that separate families in church and bring families back together IN church to worship together as a family? What better "family day" could there be?

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 02:37 PM
I don't believe it is.

It is absurd to me for a church to proclaim Sunday as "family day" and cancel church.

Why not cancel all of the cutesy little kids programs that separate families in church and bring famlies back together IN church to worship together as a family? What better "family day" could there be?

Why does service have to be on Sunday? Cannot God cancel services on Sunday and move them to another day of the week? Is he limited to Sunday morning? Or Sunday evening? Can he not do as he pleases?

Sunday is a day that many believers set aside for the Lord. That is fine. But some might wish to do that on Saturday.

The legalism part is to think church has to occur on Sunday. It doesn't.

Whispering Grace
Apr 29th 2008, 02:38 PM
Why does service have to be on Sunday? Cannot God cancel services on Sunday and move them to another day of the week? Is he limited to Sunday morning? Or Sunday evening? Can he not do as he pleases?

Sure...but churches are not canceling Sunday services and moving them to another day. They are canceling services, period.

ProjectPeter
Apr 29th 2008, 02:47 PM
Why does service have to be on Sunday? Cannot God cancel services on Sunday and move them to another day of the week? Is he limited to Sunday morning? Or Sunday evening? Can he not do as he pleases?

Sunday is a day that many believers set aside for the Lord. That is fine. But some might wish to do that on Saturday.

The legalism part is to think church has to occur on Sunday. It doesn't.
Well it does in the sense that Sunday is when the vast majority of churches in fact do gather corporately. Sure it could be Friday, Tuesday, or Monday for days sake... but they gather on Sunday. So that's a fact in that Sunday is the corporate day of worship. Since that is the day set aside to gather then that is the day they gather. Not that it is legalistic... that's simply the day they gather.

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 02:52 PM
Sure...but churches are not canceling Sunday services and moving them to another day. They are canceling services, period.

Canceling sunday school or sunday night service is not the same as canceling sunday morning, imo.

RogerW
Apr 29th 2008, 02:54 PM
Because God said take him on Sunday. ;)

Let me speak even more plain. Let us not presume we know what God is telling another man. He is not your servant. He is God's servant.

There are many things I can teach my kids about God by choosing to fish one day instead of taking them to church that day. One would be not to be bound by the tradition that man has established for church attendance. But instead, to do all things as unto the Lord. If I attend church because the church thinks it's the right thing to do, I have attended church for the wrong reason!!!!

We know not the responsibilities in life that God gives each man. We know our own. Here is a verse that every child of God should memorize.

John 21:21-23
21 Peter therefore seeing him said to Jesus, "Lord, and what about this man?" 22 Jesus said to him, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!"
NASB

Another man's walk with the Lord is none of my business so long as it is not sinful. Choosing to not attend church on Wednesday night is not sinful.

Are you implying that the Spirit of God works outside of the Word? Can you please provide Scripture reference where the Spirit instructs any man to profain the one day a week we are given to come together as one body in Christ to worship Him and instead go fishing?

Many blessings,
RW

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 02:57 PM
Well it does in the sense that Sunday is when the vast majority of churches in fact do gather corporately. Sure it could be Friday, Tuesday, or Monday for days sake... but they gather on Sunday. So that's a fact in that Sunday is the corporate day of worship. Since that is the day set aside to gather then that is the day they gather. Not that it is legalistic... that's simply the day they gather.

I think a pretty strong argument can be made concerning Sunday morning worship service because the world knows that is the day Christians choose to meet. As a testimony them, attending sunday morning service is something that should be attended.

Here's the thing, missing a service doesn't constitute a habit. We should be like Jesus and as a custom, be attending a service. His custom was once a week. Yet, we see what he did throughout the week with his apostles, with the 70, with the multitudes. He never really stopped worshiping.

The point is, we have made church service God in some instances. Instead of encouragement, we have moved into condemnation and looking down at those that might not attend as often. That my friend, is not from God at all!

If one chooses to only attend Sunday morning service, can we really say he is less Godly than the one that chooses to attend 3 or more times a week? We can say it, but it doesn't make it true.

And what if a church cancels services for a couple of Sundays? Is that really wrong? Of course not! There is a HUGE difference in forsaking the assembly and canceling church one sunday.

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 03:00 PM
Are you implying that the Spirit of God works outside of the Word? Can you please provide Scripture reference where the Spirit instructs any man to profain the one day a week we are given to come together as one body in Christ to worship Him and instead go fishing?

Many blessings,
RW

What I am saying is that one can choose any day a week to attend. Sunday is something that man chose. The early church met on the Sabbath. They met on Sunday. They met each day of the week.

And that is my point in this thread. Generally, our example is ONE day a week. That is the example of Christ. Yet, man has taught that on that one day, we might meet for Sunday school, for morning worship, for training union that evening and an evening worship service. Want to get some religious spirits riled up, try canceling just one of those services at a church that has all four and watch what happens.

Now, it is one thing to love each service and desire to go. It is quite another to think all should attend each and every service and are instructed by God to do so.

Whispering Grace
Apr 29th 2008, 03:00 PM
Canceling sunday school or sunday night service is not the same as canceling sunday morning, imo.

So God will tell someone to go fishing Sunday evening, but not Sunday morning?

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 03:01 PM
So God will tell someone to go fishing Sunday evening, but not Sunday morning?

I have had God tell me to miss Sunday morning service before. What would Jesus have done? Exactly what the Father told him to do. It is not beyond God to tell a man to do something different than what custom or tradition holds. ;)

ProjectPeter
Apr 29th 2008, 03:02 PM
I think a pretty strong argument can be made concerning Sunday morning worship service because the world knows that is the day Christians choose to meet. As a testimony them, attending sunday morning service is something that should be attended.

Here's the thing, missing a service doesn't constitute a habit. We should be like Jesus and as a custom, be attending a service. His custom was once a week. Yet, we see what he did throughout the week with his apostles, with the 70, with the multitudes. He never really stopped worshiping.

The point is, we have made church service God in some instances. Instead of encouragement, we have moved into condemnation and looking down at those that might not attend as often. That my friend, is not from God at all!

If one chooses to only attend Sunday morning service, can we really say he is less Godly than the one that chooses to attend 3 or more times a week? We can say it, but it doesn't make it true.

And what if a church cancels services for a couple of Sundays? Is that really wrong? Of course not! There is a HUGE difference in forsaking the assembly and canceling church one sunday.
I thought I was already clear on all of that. When folks start calling it a sin then there's a bit of a problem. And no... I don't think there is anything at all wrong with missing a service if you're on vacation or traveling etc. I would venture to say that most everyone in here is lacking in perfect church attendance. None of that was my point really. I was simply pointing out that folks being labeled legalist for saying Sunday was the day of worship is being legalistic as well. Sunday is the day folks worship by and large... and legalism, like most things, has its opposite. Folks can be legalistic in their freedom if not careful. :)

2 Peter 2:20
Apr 29th 2008, 03:03 PM
Are you implying that the Spirit of God works outside of the Word? Can you please provide Scripture reference where the Spirit instructs any man to profain the one day a week we are given to come together as one body in Christ to worship Him and instead go fishing?

Many blessings,
RW

Are you implying that the Spirit of God can only be found in the church on Sunday (the one day a week we are given to come together...)??? Can he not take his child fishing and teach him lessons of God there? Can they not be in Spirit and in truth there and worship God?

ProjectPeter
Apr 29th 2008, 03:05 PM
Why are you guys picking on FISHING!!! :lol: I gotta get out and get a line in the water somewhere!!! Tis the season!

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 03:08 PM
I thought I was already clear on all of that. When folks start calling it a sin then there's a bit of a problem. And no... I don't think there is anything at all wrong with missing a service if you're on vacation or traveling etc. I would venture to say that most everyone in here is lacking in perfect church attendance. None of that was my point really. I was simply pointing out that folks being labeled legalist for saying Sunday was the day of worship is being legalistic as well. Sunday is the day folks worship by and large... and legalism, like most things, has its opposite. Folks can be legalistic in their freedom if not careful. :)

Any time we try to get others to walk in what God has convicted us, we are in danger of legalism. If I try and put my freedom on another person and get them to sin against their conscience, then I am putting my yoke on them and that is not of God.

Notice, I am not telling anyone how they should or should not attend in any of my posts. I am not their master. What I am pointing out, is that it is not for men to decide how often another should worship or even what day. If I tried to convince another that they should do as I say, then I am a legalist. I desire not to make bricks that fit together smoothly. But rather, to be with stones where the wind and water of the Spirit round out. Stones do not fit as well together as do bricks without the mortar of the Holy Spirit.

As Jesus said to Peter "If I want him to remain till I come, what is that to you?" If Jesus wants a man to fish on Sunday morning, what is that to me? The command is not to forsake the assembly. More than that is getting into man's laws and not the Lord's.

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 03:09 PM
Why are you guys picking on FISHING!!! :lol: I gotta get out and get a line in the water somewhere!!! Tis the season!

I want to go real bad. what a relaxing time fishing can be. It is in my heart to go trout fishing this year. Ever been?

Whispering Grace
Apr 29th 2008, 03:10 PM
I have had God tell me to miss Sunday morning service before. What would Jesus have done? Exactly what the Father told him to do. It is not beyond God to tell a man to do something different than what custom or tradition holds. ;)

I still don't get it. Perhaps in my sheer excitement to get to church, I'm missing His voice telling me not to go? :hmm:

I can't imagine there'd ever be a time He'd tell me not to go and worship Him! In fact, every single time I have had a conflict between church and something else (usually work), the Lord has resolved the conflict (oftentimes miraculously....there was no way it could have been done except through Him) so I could be at church!

ProjectPeter
Apr 29th 2008, 03:12 PM
I want to go real bad. what a relaxing time fishing can be. It is in my heart to go trout fishing this year. Ever been?
Sure... many a time.

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 03:14 PM
I still don't get it. Perhaps in my sheer excitement to get to church, I'm missing His voice telling me not to go? :hmm:

I can't imagine there'd ever be a time He'd tell me not to go and worship Him! In fact, every single time I have had a conflict between church and something else (usually work), the Lord has resolved the conflict (oftentimes miraculously....there was no way it could have been done except through Him) so I could be at church!

Then I will share a testimony with you. Of course, going to church is exciting and rewarding! It is an awesome experience.

My roommate and I were headed to church one Sunday morning. His brother was visiting with us and had slept in. Upon waking, he came to speak to us in the kitchen. We were getting ready to leave. But something was going on. In obedience to our Lord, we listened and watched. God was convicting this man. We spent the next hour or so speaking to him about Christ. He thought he was a good man and we gave him law. It was interesting to watch the Spirit of God begin to weigh conviction upon his soul. He want from thinking he was a decent man to utter hopelessness. Then we shared the gospel of Christ with him and watched his dread turn to joy as the Lord Jesus saved him.

Church could wait. God wanted us right where we were at.

Just because you can't imagine it for you, doesn't mean it can't happen to another. And that is the entire point. We are not another's judge. God did not appoint us to say what another should do. What is it to us if he tells another to do something differently?

We need to give each person room to do what the Lord tells him to do. Scripture lays out principles that we all are told to follow. None of us should forsake the assembly. But missing a church service is not forsaking the assembly. That's the point.

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 03:15 PM
Sure... many a time.

I might just have to plan a trip up to your neck of the woods. I want to go and enjoy some of that. But, the Lord will have to work out a few things first.

Whispering Grace
Apr 29th 2008, 03:16 PM
Then I will share a testimony with you. Of course, going to church is exciting and rewarding! It is an awesome experience.

My roommate and I were headed to church one Sunday morning. His brother was visiting with us and had slept in. Upon waking, he came to speak to us in the kitchen. We were getting ready to leave. But something was going on. In obedience to our Lord, we listened and watched. God was convicting this man. We spent the next hour or so speaking to him about Christ. He thought he was a good man and we gave him law. It was interesting to watch the Spirit of God begin to weigh conviction upon his soul. He want from thinking he was a decent man to utter hopelessness. Then we shared the gospel of Christ with him and watched his dread turn to joy as the Lord Jesus saved him.

Church could wait. God wanted us right where we were at.



That, to me, is worlds apart from going choosing to go fishing instead of going to church.

StarscreamX-2
Apr 29th 2008, 03:17 PM
Legalism


1 : strict, literal, or excessive conformity to the law or to a religious or moral code <the institutionalized legalism that restricts free choice> 2 : a legal (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/legal) term or rule

What is Legalism?

Whispering Grace
Apr 29th 2008, 03:17 PM
I might just have to plan a trip up to your neck of the woods. I want to go and enjoy some of that. But, the Lord will have to work out a few things first.

Just don't do it on Sunday! :P


























:lol:

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 03:18 PM
That, to me, if worlds apart from going choosing to go fishing instead of going to church.

We never know what God is trying to do or what work he is up to. Should God lead a man to go fishing, it would be sin for him to attend church instead.

Want me to tell you a story about how God told a friend of mine to go to an arcade? Why would God ever do that? It was to save a man.

God may tell a man to go fishing for many reasons. Or simply give him the freedom to go. The bottom line, is we are not the master of another man and have no right to say "God did not tell you to do that" or "God did not give you the freedom to do that" apart from what is mentioned in scriptures.

Whispering Grace
Apr 29th 2008, 03:21 PM
We never know what God is trying to do or what work he is up to. Should God lead a man to go fishing, it would be sin for him to attend church instead.

I don't get how going to church and worshiping the Lord could be a sin. That makes no sense to me.

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 03:25 PM
I don't get how going to church and worshiping the Lord could be a sin. That makes no sense to me.

Had I disobeyed God and went to church instead of listening to God and witnessing to my roommates brother, it would have been sin.

Look, the point I am making is that neither you nor I can tell another man what to do. You should go to church every time you wish to go as long as God doesn't say otherwise! However, do not tell another man when and how often per wee, etc. That would not be either of our places to do so. We then are in danger of making traditions of men as doctrines of God. Christ example was one day a week. Romans 14 says that some honor one day while to others all days are the same. Each does so unto the Lord. Let each do unto the Lord. Whether we understand the one who honors a day or the one who honors no day but all are equal, is not really the issue. The issue is, will we think the one who honors the day more Godly or the one who doesn't honor the day more Godly? If we think one person is better or more Godly than the other, we have moved out of the place we should be before God.

Whispering Grace
Apr 29th 2008, 03:29 PM
What about the person who doesn't have a "legit" reason for missing church? Should the churches just keep silent?

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 03:34 PM
What about the person who doesn't have a "legit" reason for missing church? Should the churches just keep silent?

How do you know they don't? Who decides what is legit? Scripture is silent on it, is it not? Never does God say "don't miss a service". What he does say is "don't forsake the assembly". Only my Master has the authority to tell me what is OK to miss for. Man and his traditions do not hold sway over me.

Churches can preach on sin and principles of righteousness. If we start preaching on "you should attend Wednesday night unless you have a legit reason to miss" we are missing the boat. What if I wanted to come to your church as an evangelist, and I started to preach from acts how they met every day of the week. Then I looked out and said "here is our example! We should meet every day of the week". If God moves on the body to do so, then wonderful. But if that is just me, then it should fall flat. Unfortunately, there are many people preaching about church attendance that is more than what God is saying.

How would I preach it? Do not forsake the assembly. Why is it OK to not attend our local church when we go on vacation? Why can a man take a trip and that is OK to miss his local church but other reasons are not valid? It is because in our culture, we have determined that is a legit excuse but others are not. It has nothing to do with scripture.

Whispering Grace
Apr 29th 2008, 03:39 PM
So you wouldn't tell someone they should be in church instead of sitting at home watching American Idol? Where do you draw the line? It seems to me in an effort not to be legalistic, you're going the opposite extreme.

Son_kissed
Apr 29th 2008, 03:50 PM
1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.

2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.


I think this speaks to a legalistic aspect of keeping the Sabbath day Holy, and suggests that we shouldn't be.

If God speaks to a man and tells him to let the disciples pluck wheat on the Sabbath, or take his son fishing on the Sabbath, he should listen. Perhaps the disciples were hungry (or perhaps God made them hungry just so He could use them as a lesson for us!). Perhaps the boy desperately needs to see the manifestation of God's love through his earthly father that day. I doubt God would be pleased if we said, "No Father, I will not let them work and pluck wheat on the sabbath," or, "No Father, instead of spending time with and showing my son my love for him today, as you have often genrously shown me your love, I'd rather go praise and worship you."

Reminds me of the Pharisees dedicating money and things to God that they should have used to take care of their family.

As with anything else we need to listen to God and worship and serve Him in spirit and truth.

Not going to church because we want to do something else is wrong, but so is going only because it's commanded, especially if you feel He's leading you to do something else that day.

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 03:57 PM
So you wouldn't tell someone they should be in church instead of sitting at home watching American Idol? Where do you draw the line? It seems to me in an effort not to be legalistic, you're going the opposite extreme.

I would tell them what the Lord tells me to tell them. I hardly know what American Idol even is sense I have only seen it a time or two. But I can tell you this, I would not preach to them about church. Instead, I would listen to God and find out what the issue is. Someone that has forsaken the assembly most likely has a deeper issue. Lack of attendance may be a symptom of the issue.

One thing is for sure, God let the rich young ruler leave. I have no issue letting someone else leave. Having said that, as a pastor, my calling before God is the welfare of one's soul. It is not his church attendance. As the soul is healthy, that soul will desire Church for God has written His laws upon our heart. If the desire is gone, why is it gone?

When one has a broken leg, I can tell him to walk all day long. But until the leg is dealt with, there will be a limp even if there is a walk.

Having said all that, if one wishes to stay home and fish, or watch american idol or do something else, that MAY be a sign of an issue with God. But I have experienced God enough to know that he will tell people to miss service for various reasons. If one is being driven to perform for God, God will deal with that on some level. A dead work is a dead work regardless of what that work is. That is why our righteousness MUST exceed the righteousness of the Pharisee.

If a man, because God so instructed, decides to attend church only on Sunday mornings, far be it from me to tell that man he should attend more often. Man has instituted the requirement of multiple services a week being mandentory or Godly. It was not God that established that standard. So if one misses Sunday night service for any reason, they may have broken man's command, but they have not broken the Lord's command.

Whispering Grace
Apr 29th 2008, 04:08 PM
I doubt God would be pleased if we said...."No Father, instead of spending time with and showing my son my love for him today, as you have often genrously shown me your love, I'd rather go praise and worship you."

I can't for the life of me fathom God being angry that I desire to praise and worship Him!

And I can't fathom having to miss church to spend time with my son and show him love.

Call me a flaming legalist if you like, but that just makes no sense!

RogerW
Apr 29th 2008, 04:09 PM
What I am saying is that one can choose any day a week to attend. Sunday is something that man chose. The early church met on the Sabbath. They met on Sunday. They met each day of the week.

We come together as one body unto Christ on the first day of the week for a reason. Do you know why the first day and no longer the seventh?



And that is my point in this thread. Generally, our example is ONE day a week. That is the example of Christ. Yet, man has taught that on that one day, we might meet for Sunday school, for morning worship, for training union that evening and an evening worship service. Want to get some religious spirits riled up, try canceling just one of those services at a church that has all four and watch what happens.

It is one day a week that we come together covenantally to bring our praise and worship unto God as one holy people. We come together to receive the message that God has sent unto His covenantal body. In response to hearing His word, we worship and praise Him through prayer, and singing of psalms and hymns, and partaking of the sacraments together as one holy, set apart people unto God. We are the church! We are called one body, with one Spirit, one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism. How can we be one if we separate ouselves from the one body?

We are called to be separate from the world. The world participates in worldly endeavors (fishing) because the world has no desire to worship and praise the Lord in Spirit and truth. If we do the same as the world, how will the world see the light of Christ shining through us? We are different, a strange people unto God, a holy people willing to deny ourselves physical pleasures because we love Him, and we love to come together as one special people anytime we can.



Now, it is one thing to love each service and desire to go. It is quite another to think all should attend each and every service and are instructed by God to do so.

This is true, God does not instruct us to attend every church service. God instead instructs us to live our whole lives as holy people unto God. He calls us to die to ourselves and live wholly unto Him. We are called to deny ourselves in service to Him, to take up our cross daily.

It is to the church that God has given apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. Why? So we can come to unity of the faith, and knowledge of the Son of God. Why? That we will not be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine by the slight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive. We are called to come together to speak the truth in love so that we may grow up into Christ. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. How can we do this if we neglect assembling ourselves together in love for the purpose of exhorting one another unto love and good works?

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Many Blessings,
RW

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 04:12 PM
I can't for the life of me fathom God being angry that I desire to praise and worship Him!

And I can't fathom having to miss church to spend time with my son and show him love.

Call me a flaming legalist if you like, but that just makes no sense!

No one is saying you have to be different WG. It is the concept that another must walk in your footsteps that many of us have an issue with when we refer to something as legalism. God speaks very strongly about forsaking the assembly. I could preach strongly on that without hesitation to the point that some might think it too strong. But God has and does tell people to miss church at various times and for various purposes, all according to His will.

Keep on attending as much as you desire! That is what the Lord is telling you to do! But when others are gleaning on the Sabbath for refreshment of their physical bodies (i.e. missing church), let us be careful not to say they have missed God.

RogerW
Apr 29th 2008, 04:13 PM
I have had God tell me to miss Sunday morning service before. What would Jesus have done? Exactly what the Father told him to do. It is not beyond God to tell a man to do something different than what custom or tradition holds. ;)

How has God told you this? I cannot find this in Scripture?

Many Blessings,
RW

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 04:19 PM
We come together as one body unto Christ on the first day of the week for a reason. Do you know why the first day and no longer the seventh?

We will disagree on this one. I know the reasons why folks say. As for me, count me in that group Paul refers to in Romans 14, all days are alike to me. The Sabbath never really changed from Saturday to Sunday. Though the church has decided to meet on Sunday, that's fine. Nothing wrong with it at all.


It is one day a week that we come together covenantally to bring our praise and worship unto God as one holy people. We come together to receive the message that God has sent unto His covenantal body. In response to hearing His word, we worship and praise Him through prayer, and singing of psalms and hymns, and partaking of the sacraments together as one holy, set apart people unto God. We are the church! We are called one body, with one Spirit, one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism. How can we be one if we separate ouselves from the one body?

THat is why God spoke so hard in Hebrews 10. Do we think that God just placed the concept of willful sin immediately after the concept of forsaking the assembly? God takes seriously the idea of being in covenant with Him and each other. We are to attend. But forsaking the assembly is more than just missing church. Let me ask you a question, when you go on vacation, do you get back to your local body in time to attend church? Most of us don't. Some of us attend another local body while on vacation. But the point is, that we all have missed Sunday morning service at our local church without sinning.


We are called to be separate from the world. The world participates in worldly endeavors (fishing) because the world has no desire to worship and praise the Lord in Spirit and truth. If we do the same as the world, how will the world see the light of Christ shining through us? We are different, a strange people unto God, a holy people willing to deny ourselves physical pleasures because we love Him, and we love to come together as one special people anytime we can.

That goes back to Hebrews 10, IMO. We are indeed a witness! Yet, I can be a witness and still have exceptions. As the brother quoted above, Jesus was gleaning on the Sabbath. It was not his habit to do so, but he did it. Notice, the world didn't care. But the religious crowd was really bothered about it. I can give real life examples of when God told a man to miss a service for a very good reason. Some would not set well with others. Perhaps God tells a man to spend time with his son fishing on Sunday. Maybe that guy has to work 6 days a week. But God wishes to do a work in the relationship between the man and his son so God tells the dad to take this time and instead of going to church, to spend it with his boy. Believe me, such an example has happened.




This is true, God does not instruct us to attend every church service. God instead instructs us to live our whole lives as holy people unto God. He calls us to die to ourselves and live wholly unto Him. We are called to deny ourselves in service to Him, to take up our cross daily.

It is to the church that God has given apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. Why? So we can come to unity of the faith, and knowledge of the Son of God. Why? That we will not be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine by the slight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive. We are called to come together to speak the truth in love so that we may grow up into Christ. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. How can we do this if we neglect assembling ourselves together in love for the purpose of exhorting one another unto love and good works?

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Many Blessings,
RW


I have no issue with this part. We are in agreement. And that is part of what I am trying to get at it throughout my posts.

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 04:20 PM
How has God told you this? I cannot find this in Scripture?

Many Blessings,
RW

I gave the example above. It's in the thread. ;)

RogerW
Apr 29th 2008, 04:21 PM
Are you implying that the Spirit of God can only be found in the church on Sunday (the one day a week we are given to come together...)???

No, not at all. The Spirit resides within believers, therefore wherever the believer is found, there will also be found the Spirit.



Can he not take his child fishing and teach him lessons of God there? Can they not be in Spirit and in truth there and worship God?

We can take our child fishing or anywhere else anytime we like, and teach them lessons of God in the process. That is not the point. We are speaking of coming together as one body unto the Lord on one specific day. Teaching our children to honor and reverence this special time of covenantal worship and praise together with the whole body of Christ is taught by example. If we treat this day as the world does, then we should not be surprised if our children grow up believing they can do whatever they like, whenever they like for we have taught them that setting aside a specific day and time to come together as one holy covenant body unto the Lord is of no import or significance. So the day, like every other day is profaned and consumed with worldliness.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Apr 29th 2008, 04:32 PM
I gave the example above. It's in the thread. ;)

Don't mean to be a pest, but you are implying that the Spirit works outside of the Word, and I cannot find this in Scripture. I did not find Scripture references to how God speaks to us without His Word. Did you provide them and I missed them, or are there no examples in Scripture to show how God will sometimes direct His people to profane the Lord's Day to engage in worldly affairs?

Many Blessings,
RW

Brother Mark
Apr 29th 2008, 04:36 PM
Don't mean to be a pest, but you are implying that the Spirit works outside of the Word, and I cannot find this in Scripture. I did not find Scripture references to how God speaks to us without His Word. Did you provide them and I missed them, or are there no examples in Scripture to show how God will sometimes direct His people to profane the Lord's Day to engage in worldly affairs?

Many Blessings,
RW

Did God tell Abraham to go to Ur by using the bible or in another way?

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word (remah) of God. Jesus went about doing just what God instructed him to do. He said he only did that which God told him to do. Was everything Jesus did commanded of God in scripture? No. But Jesus only said what he heard.

Jesus said that his sheep know his voice. But hearing God is a totally different thread than this one. Yet, what a great topic it is. For sure, God speaks to a man about things in his life that is not written in scripture. Yet, never will the spoken word of God tell a man to sin. We know that from scripture too.

Saved7
Apr 29th 2008, 04:59 PM
It's not about reading the bible. It's about blindness. Look at the context of the verse...

Heb 10:23-26
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near.

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
NASB

They will tell you that God immediately talks about sinning after he talks about forsaking. Also, they will say if God says not to forsake the assembly then it is a sin to do so. They will then define forsaking the assembly as missing Wednesday night. Oh, now there are exceptions. If you have to work or are sick, that's OK. Because in your heart you want to be there. But if you skip Sunday morning church to go fishing, you have forsaken church that morning.

They know their bibles well. It's not about reading them. Like Jesus said of the pharisees, they search the bible.


Excellent point.

Son_kissed
Apr 29th 2008, 05:12 PM
I can't for the life of me fathom God being angry that I desire to praise and worship Him!

And I can't fathom having to miss church to spend time with my son and show him love.

Call me a flaming legalist if you like, but that just makes no sense!

God wouldn't be angry at us for desiring to praise and worship Him, as long we don't put what we want (even our desire to love and know Him more) before what He wants.

For example: I love studying and absorbing His word and getting to know Him through the study of it. I could read it all day long, and nothing would make me happier. I'm sure that pleases God. But, if I continually neglected my family, and didnt take care of their needs, in order to keep reading and getting to know Him better, that would be selfish and wouldn't please Him. He can teach me about Himself in many ways, even through the mundane chores of cooking and doing laundry. And I can worship Him and show Him my love for Him by being obedient to his command to love and serve one another.

As another example: What about the wife of an unbelieving husband? If he told her not to go to church, would she be sinning if she didnt? I don't think so. I think God would want her to be humble and obey her husband, and demonstrate Christ to him through her. And I dont think that is the only time that God might prefer us not to go. I agree with Brother Mark. There may be other reasons that we are not aware of that other people don't go. If God impresses it upon them to stay home or do something else, they should. We can worship God wherever we are and in whatever we're doing.


John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


I'm not saying its legalistic to go to church on Sunday and worship God, and certainly wouldn't say that you're being legalistic. We should go to church! It's only wrong if we're not doing it in a right spirit (out of our own desire to go because we love Him, as you do). Or, if God would have us do something else that day, and instead we go to church and show Him our love for Him in the way that we want to. We cant throw the commandment to keep the Sabbath Holy back in His face as the Pharisees tried to do, if He's telling us to do something different. He is Lord of the sabbath.

We have to remain aware of the spirit of the law in all of the commandments.

grit
Apr 29th 2008, 05:33 PM
Legalism at it's finest! I just had a conversation with a friend next door and I was shocked to hear that her church looks down on anyone who misses a church service. She told me it is considered a sin. This level of legalism is not new to me but it still strikes me as odd. On top of that her church doesn't believe in children playing sports or going out to eat on Sundays.

Just for conversation I would like to know everyone's thoughts on the subject. Like how many times a week the church is required to meet...etc. I have my own answers but I would like to pick some brains!
(Forgive me for the extensive quotes below*, but I think they merit reference and consideration on the topics of the OP.)

Perhaps “legalism” is of primary consideration in the thread, but “worship”, “community”, “authority”, and “obedience” also frame our thoughts, and it would seem the most central issue is how each of these are qualified within concepts and practices of “church” or “Church”.

For me, and I trust for most gathered here, each of these are a constant within any timeframe of a Christian walk. What I mean is that there is not a moment within the Christian walk where these are nonessentials to a ‘Christian’ walk – not in a legalistic sense, for example, that each Christian must go to church, but that each Christian is a part of Church.

To most of our common consideration, being a ‘Christian’ begins as relational - we are said to be “in Christ” – He in us and we in Him. This does not mean that simply one person and Christ constitutes a “church” or “community”, but, in aspect of “communion”, it might be said to be nearly so, especially as it relates to “authority”, “obedience”, aspects of “legalism” and “The Law”, and certainly as a “worship” of God “in spirit and in truth”. In other words, “Church” begins with Christ as our head and focus of worship, “that in all things He might have the preeminence”, and then branches from that core into other expressions and relations of “community” and “authority”, as God has detailed in Holy Scripture as appropriate in model and practice.

To make a long story short, God has in fact given not only a model but a command in how He is to be worshiped, and this involves both community worship and community accountability. We are welcome to differ in details and regulations within Scriptural compliance, or more exactly within compliance to Christ.

To the friend who would mandate attendance at church services, I would defend that God does no less, depending on how particularly our ‘vision’ of “church” measures up with that given in Scripture, as foundationally “when two or more are gathered together in [Christ’s] name” (Matthew 18:20).

Does God condemn an absence from any particular church service and using Sunday for recreational enjoyments and serving worldly concerns? Is whatever liberty we have in Christ a license for sin? We would all answer, just as the Apostle Paul, “no”, to the second question (1 Cor. 8-9, 2 Cor. 3:1, Gal. 2:4); and that actually conditions our answer to the first. God judges our hearts, based on truth, the measure of our perfect alignment with His holy will, and the atonement and washing away of our sin through the sacrifice of His own Son Christ Jesus for our sin. In relation to our place in “community” and our subjection to one another in Christ, it may indeed be a sin for some to miss Sunday service and play tennis followed by a hearty meal at the local commercial eatery. For some Christian communions and holy subjections to lawful authorities, there are rules respecting Sunday worship and community practice, and there is a reasonable and holy accountability to one another under God-ordained Scriptural dictates for authority within the community. It is hopeful that we will together be worshiping God in community for eternity. To whatever degree our present worldly concerns restrict our community worship or structure it within certain limits of time and focus of community gathering, our hearts must never abandon the clear dictates of Scripture that we are one in Christ and that this is best realized and appreciated through communal worship and accountability.


*
VI. Official Board Policy on the "organized" Church and Bible Forums as a "Church"

Of late, there have been numerous threads on "coming out of the organized church" and there have been numerous post made in a variety of other threads with this same tilt. Here is our stand as leaders of this message board.

We are not going to be a Message Board that allows for total bashing of the "organized" or even "disorganized" church. If you have biblical truth to share in offering a solution to what you see as a problem... PLEASE share. If your aim is to just come in here and preach "come out from among" this church then you will not be allowed to continue.

For those of you who consider Bible Forums as your "church/fellowship" then let me be the first to tell you... Get real. This is not a local gathering of believers and that is what we need and it is very much a biblical requirement. We operate in a biblical manner as best as can be done within this medium. We are a gathering of believers. We can talk about the Bible and pray for each other and do many things that are similar to that gathering of believers laid out in the Bible. BUT there are MANY things that we cannot do and it is those many things that discount us as your "church/fellowship." If we see you say such as that then your post WILL BE deleted because we dare not allow a new or weaker believer think this a proper thing to believe. We would be derelict in our duty to allow any such as that.

We greatly appreciate your participation in this venue and it is all of you who make this Message Board one of the best on the Web. We enjoy the discussion and the fact that we have so many various views and can discuss them reasonably (most times ;)) and without all of you this board would be rather boring and would have long ago faded away as many such Message Boards have on the Net. But it is all of our responsibility, as a whole body, to be part of the solution and not part of the problem. So let's focus our attention on actually helping others, regardless of where they worship, and thus we become a strengthened and edified body of believers. That doesn't mean we're always going to agree (we aren't). But even in our disagreement we can become stronger.

Here are some other guidelines to consider. These might just need to be incorporated into specific forum rules.

Such threads will be hosted in Bible Chat or Contro forums.
In the New In Christ, Maturing in Christ, and Families forums, we will encourage participation of individuals and families in a local congregation. That could be a house Church or an organized Church, but we don't want doubtful views of either in these forums.
One's views should only be presented without demeaning any other form of Church.
We believe there are called ministers and leaders placed in the Church of God. Therefore we do not encourage posts which impugn these positions in the body of Christ. http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=59397 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=59397)

awestruckchild
Apr 29th 2008, 06:22 PM
I just had a conversation with a friend next door and I was shocked to hear that her church looks down on anyone who misses a church service. She told me it is considered a sin. This level of legalism is not new to me but it still strikes me as odd. On top of that her church doesn't believe in children playing sports or going out to eat on Sundays.

Just for conversation I would like to know everyone's thoughts on the subject. Like how many times a week the church is required to meet...etc. I have my own answers but I would like to pick some brains!

Very good thread Peter!
I just recently received some teaching from the Holy Spirit on this. It ties in with what He has shown me on Mathew 16 with Jesus' words to His followers on the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
The Pharisees focus of teaching was the "keeping of the law of Moses." But when Jesus came, He taught on the true meaning of the two laws on murder and adultery and so showed us that we cannot keep the law according to Gods standard in it.
But God also says that we must be holy because He is holy. So we must be holy, yet we can't keep the law. It appears from this that quite a lot of pulpit teaching is demanding the impossible from us and it even seems to appear that God Himself demands the impossible from us.
It seems to me the only honest response to this is to cry - "Oh, Lord, please have mercy on me, a sinner!"
The one who instead says - "Oh, Lord, I thank You that I am not like these other sinners who do not obey your law and break the Sabbath!" - is the one who walks away deceived and unforgiven. It should never be: Oh Lord, I thank you that I am...
It should only always be: Oh, Lord, I thank You that You are..."

Whispering Grace
Apr 29th 2008, 06:41 PM
As another example: What about the wife of an unbelieving husband? If he told her not to go to church, would she be sinning if she didnt? I don't think so. I think God would want her to be humble and obey her husband, and demonstrate Christ to him through her.

As the wife of an unbelieving husband, I wholeheartedly disagree with this. God said NOT to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. Period. Staying home to appease an unbelieving husband would mean going against God's Word.

Son_kissed
Apr 29th 2008, 08:15 PM
As the wife of an unbelieving husband, I wholeheartedly disagree with this. God said NOT to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. Period. Staying home to appease an unbelieving husband would mean going against God's Word.

He also says to be in subjection to your husband. Period. I don’t know about you, but I even made a vow before God to love, honor and obey mine (I know not everyone uses those words in their vows now).

Actually, neither one of the instructions to “forsake not the assembling of ourselves together,” or to “be in subjection to your husband” is a commandment. They are instructions (although Genesis makes it pretty clear that our husbands have rule or dominion over us, too, and also that we are to set the seventh day apart).

So what do we do?

Well, I don’t think we’ll ever go wrong if we follow the spirit of the law, and know and do God’s will.

When the Pharisees questioned Jesus regarding the disciples gleaning on the Sabbath they were attempting to keep the Sabbath holy in terms of what they considered holy to be, instead of what God considered holy to be. Was it because they loved God? It doesn’t look like they even knew Him. If they had known God and His will, they would have demonstrated compassion and mercy for the hungry disciples, as Jesus did.


Matt 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

If God was merciful to the hungry disciples and considered Jesus and the disciples guiltless concerning keeping the Sabbath holy, would He not also be as merciful to the spouse of the unbelieving husband for not attending church (if the unbelieving hubby told her not to) because she was in subjection to her husband as His word also tells us to be?

If Jesus had put his love for the Father first, and aside from the Father’s will, and before his love for us, he would have not have become sin for us. Thankfully, he knew the Fathers will was for him to love and sacrifice himself for us, and he loved the Father and obeyed, and knew that, even though he would become sin for us, God would be merciful.

I can't explain my understanding of this any more clearly than that. I guess if you still disagree, we’ll just have to disagree for now. :hug:

2 Peter 2:20
Apr 29th 2008, 08:48 PM
If we treat this day as the world does, then we should not be surprised if our children grow up believing they can do whatever they like, whenever they like for we have taught them that setting aside a specific day and time to come together as one holy covenant body unto the Lord is of no import or significance. So the day, like every other day is profaned and consumed with worldliness.

Many Blessings,
RW

We are not treating this like the world does. We are saying "THIS IS THE DAY THAT THE LORD HAS MADE LET US REJOICE". This day is any day God has put breath in your body. Some Christians believe that ALL days are that special...treat everyday like it is Sunday. So we are not profaning any day like the world does.

Whispering Grace
Apr 29th 2008, 08:50 PM
If God was merciful to the hungry disciples and considered Jesus and the disciples guiltless concerning keeping the Sabbath holy, would He not also be as merciful to the spouse of the unbelieving husband for not attending church (if the unbelieving hubby told her not to) because she was in subjection to her husband as His word also tells us to be?

I can love and honor my husband all week long, all day long. I have a hard time understanding how I would have to skip church to love and honor my husband.

If my husband told me to go rob a bank, I wouldn't do that either.

Son_kissed
Apr 29th 2008, 09:33 PM
If my husband told me to go rob a bank, I wouldn't do that either.

Again, its about the spirit of the law.

The law teaches us to love others, not hurt them. It would never be God's will for us to harm others by stealing their money. Staying home from church at our husbands request does not harm anyone, and it can demonstrate our love for them as well as our love for, and obedience to, God and His word, in loving and obeying them in that.

Thankfully, I don't have to make that choice, but I would never judge somebody who missed church if they thought that's what God was leading them to do. Nor would I judge them for going to church if they were sure that's what God wanted them to do.

daughter
Apr 29th 2008, 09:38 PM
I can love and honor my husband all week long, all day long. I have a hard time understanding how I would have to skip church to love and honor my husband.

If my husband told me to go rob a bank, I wouldn't do that either.
My husband commanded me NOT to go to church, and told me not to pray in front of him, not to read the Bible in the same room as him.

I prayed about it (in a seperate room) and God impressed upon me to obey my husband.

And within about six weeks, as I work out the time scale now, from my husband commanding me not to go to church, etc, my husband was saved.

Give EVERYTHING to God, every single thing, no matter how nonsensical, no matter how counter intuitive or daft it seems. He will work with everything that you do through faith.

I know Muslim women who are Christian converts who cannot go to church because their husbands would beat them. I couldn't go to church because my husband needed full time care, and unless he asked for it through the district nurse I couldn't leave the house. I certainly couldn't leave the house for church if he countermanded it.

The point is, nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to go to church on a Sunday. We're told to fellowship with other believers... but church as we know it is not a command.

I do go to church now, and I am glad to be able to do so. But I think that God was just as pleased, and just as much with me, when I couldn't leave the house.

Whispering Grace
Apr 29th 2008, 09:46 PM
Again, its about the spirit of the law.

The law teaches us to love others, not hurt them. It would never be God's will for us to harm others by stealing their money. Staying home from church at our husbands request does not harm anyone...

Not going to church would harm me. Does that count for anything?

Son_kissed
Apr 29th 2008, 09:54 PM
If Jesus is our example, I have to say no it doesn't. :hug:

Whispering Grace
Apr 29th 2008, 10:05 PM
So me being harmed doesn't count for anything? Interesting.

And to be clear, I believe in biblical submission. Trust me, I have submitted to things that have broken my heart in a million pieces. But I don't, not for one split second, believe that God intends for me to forsake worshiping with my brothers and sisters in Christ to appease a non-believing spouse.

Others may have a low view of church and corporate worship, but I do not. It is my place of refuge in an otherwise tumultuous world.

Son_kissed
Apr 29th 2008, 10:30 PM
I don't know what you want me to say WG. If your husband asked you to stay home from church and you had to miss out on fellowship with your family in Christ, it would be a sad thing. If you honestly feel that God would rather have you go, then you should go. Only He knows you and what you and your husband's needs are.

That doesn't mean that He would rather everybody else, in the same position, go. As with our sister "daughter" He may use their obedience and sacrifice to their husband to help win him over to Christ.

The fact that following Gods lead may at times cause us personal suffering shouldnt keep us from following his leading, though. Jesus, Paul, and all the disciples all considered whatever they suffered as gain. And we all suffer in some ways or others.

Again, only you know what God wants you to do. I certainly wouldn't question your or anybody else's decision to go to church instead of doing as your husband asks if you feel thats what God wants you to do.

ProjectPeter
Apr 30th 2008, 12:00 AM
My husband commanded me NOT to go to church, and told me not to pray in front of him, not to read the Bible in the same room as him.

I prayed about it (in a seperate room) and God impressed upon me to obey my husband.

And within about six weeks, as I work out the time scale now, from my husband commanding me not to go to church, etc, my husband was saved.

Give EVERYTHING to God, every single thing, no matter how nonsensical, no matter how counter intuitive or daft it seems. He will work with everything that you do through faith.

I know Muslim women who are Christian converts who cannot go to church because their husbands would beat them. I couldn't go to church because my husband needed full time care, and unless he asked for it through the district nurse I couldn't leave the house. I certainly couldn't leave the house for church if he countermanded it.

The point is, nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to go to church on a Sunday. We're told to fellowship with other believers... but church as we know it is not a command.

I do go to church now, and I am glad to be able to do so. But I think that God was just as pleased, and just as much with me, when I couldn't leave the house.
This falls into that area where it might be different for different folks and situations. Take for example... a husband that goes to church every Sunday because that is what you are supposed to do. An unbeliever and one that doesn't care to let folks in on that fact. Been doing that and doing that for years. The wife changes churches because of conviction and a change in doctrine and the husband... well he don't like this church because when he goes he gets convicted at this new place. So the husband quits going and doesn't want the wife to continue going.

I will side with WG on this one... go to church. I remember the story of Smith-Wigglesworth and how he told his wife that same thing. She told him that "you are my husband and I love you very much. But you aren't my God." She went on to church. Smith locked the door so she couldn't get in the house when she got home. The next morning he went to the front door and there she slept leaning on the wall. He opened the door. She woke, got up, walked in the house, kissed him and told him that she loved him. Then she went into the kitchen and prepared his breakfast as she did every morning and not a word said.

He asked her... are you going back to church tonight (there was a revival) and she said yes. He was fuming mad when he left for work that day. But it ate at him and ate at him badly. When he got home that night... he went upstairs, dressed, and went with her to church. That night he was saved and after that he spent the rest of his living days preaching to hundreds of thousands. So I am not so sure there is a set answer when it comes to this issue specifically.

2 Peter 2:20
Apr 30th 2008, 01:23 AM
Boy, I have opened a can of worms. What I thought would be a little discussion has turned into 100 posts in just 1 day. That is awesome! Thanks for everyones imput...this doesn't mean to stop posting, it means good job and keep it up.

Jeanne D
Apr 30th 2008, 04:05 AM
Admittedly I don't feel like reading all 7 pages, so I'm just gonna jump in here with my opinion regarding church attendance.

This is going to sound strange to some folks, but I think you can become too involved in church. Now I am all for going to church, but there are ministries that could have you involved almost every day of the week.
I've known families who are so involved, that they don't spend time together because they're just too busy.

I personally no longer attend on Sunday evenings. Sunday is supposed to be a day of rest. After services in the morning, we like to relax and spend some time together. We even have "family time" sometimes where we study the word together. While God wants us to fellowship, He does not want us to neglect our families. There has to be a balance.

Jeanne

Whispering Grace
Apr 30th 2008, 12:42 PM
The fact that following Gods lead may at times cause us personal suffering shouldnt keep us from following his leading, though. Jesus, Paul, and all the disciples all considered whatever they suffered as gain. And we all suffer in some ways or others.

This is not about avoiding suffering. I am sure most women married to unbelievers suffer to some extent regardless. But God's Word tells us not to forsake assembling together. We as believers need one another or God would not tell us to come together. And I dare say wives of unbelievers need Christian fellowship even moreso than those not in unequally yoked marriages because these marriages can be very discouraging and hinder our walks with the Lord.

I still don't believe for a minute it would be God's will for a woman to miss church on account of her unbelieving husband. I believe that would go directly against the Word of God. Anything that goes against the Word of God is not from God.

2 Peter 2:20
Apr 30th 2008, 01:40 PM
This is not about avoiding suffering. I am sure most women married to unbelievers suffer to some extent regardless. But God's Word tells us not to forsake assembling together. We as believers need one another or God would not tell us to come together. And I dare say wives of unbelievers need Christian fellowship even moreso than those not in unequally yoked marriages because these marriages can be very discouraging and hinder our walks with the Lord.

I still don't believe for a minute it would be God's will for a woman to miss church on account of her unbelieving husband. I believe that would go directly against the Word of God. Anything that goes against the Word of God is not from God.

But this woman could be the most godly, holy, sinless, righteous, God fearing person around and just because she didn't go to church that would make her bad?

Whispering Grace
Apr 30th 2008, 02:47 PM
But this woman could be the most godly, holy, sinless, righteous, God fearing person around and just because she didn't go to church that would make her bad?

Define bad. I don't believe I ever used that terminology in one of my posts.

9Marksfan
Apr 30th 2008, 03:17 PM
Don't we miss the whole point of what church is? If we are the church, then what does it mean to forsake church? Does it mean missing a meeting on Sunday or does it mean to stop fellowshipping with Christ? That is something we should do everyday. My pastor father-inlaw loves to point out (tongue in cheek I think) when I go fishing on a Sunday (after our meeting) that all I will catch is the devil. I remind him I"m under the new covenant.
J.

And the new covenant says "Forget about the Lord's day - it doesn't matter what you do - Is 58 is rescinded!", does it?!?

Whispering Grace
Apr 30th 2008, 03:27 PM
I personally no longer attend on Sunday evenings. Sunday is supposed to be a day of rest. After services in the morning, we like to relax and spend some time together. We even have "family time" sometimes where we study the word together. While God wants us to fellowship, He does not want us to neglect our families. There has to be a balance.

Families in my church spend time together in church. It's not an either/or proposition.

I think there is something wrong with many modern churches that separate families the minute they walk in the door.

Brother Mark
Apr 30th 2008, 03:35 PM
Families in my church spend time together in church. It's not an either/or proposition.

I think there is something wrong with many modern churches that separate families the minute they walk in the door.

Some churches schedule so much time at church that families cannot focus on one another. Paul rightly wrote about how the heart is divided for married folks in 1 Cor 7. A husband cannot focus on the needs of his family if he is in church all the time. But church attendance is very, very important! Once a week is the example. More than that is purely optional and pretty much man made. Nothing wrong with it, as long as it isn't looked at as a measure of maturity or something folks should do. If it becomes a yoke, and it can be that, then it is wrong.

And as far as missing one service, that certainly isn't taught to be sin in scripture.

Whispering Grace
Apr 30th 2008, 03:39 PM
A husband cannot focus on the needs of his family if he is in church all the time.

Define "all the time".

Apart from revivals, our church meets 3 times a week for worship. Granted, most of Sunday is spent at church, but that still leaves most evenings during the week and all of Saturday that we don't meet.

Brother Mark
Apr 30th 2008, 03:42 PM
Define "all the time".

Outside of revivals, our church meets 3 times a week for worship.

Well, we can dissect the letter if you wish. But it is the spirit that gives life.

Some churches have 4 or more nights a week tied up. That's way too much in our society today. That only leaves 3 nights to take care of our daily obligations and spend time with family. Now, if we wish to do it as the early church did, have dinner with the family and friends at the meeting, and preach the word too, that is different. It keeps all the relationships functional.

The pattern set for us from the beginning was one day a week. More than that is OK. But if a church thinks that attendance of the extra services is a measure of one's Godliness, they have moved into legalism. Those services should be a blessing to those that wish to attend. For those that don't want to attend, God is just as pleased with them.

Whispering Grace
Apr 30th 2008, 03:46 PM
Honestly, I can't get past this vibe I am getting in this thread that going to church more than once a week to gather with our brethren and worship the Lord is somehow a hardship.

If corporate worship is not something you [general] desire greatly to do, don't go to heaven, because there is going to be lots and lots and lots of that going on for a long, long time!

9Marksfan
Apr 30th 2008, 03:48 PM
For those that don't want to attend, God is just as pleased with them.

So if they're slobbing in front of the TV because they can't be bothered to go (the case for most people!), you're saying God's just as pleased with that?

Brother Mark
Apr 30th 2008, 03:51 PM
Honestly, I can't get past this vibe I am getting in this thread that going to church more than once a week to gather with our brethren and worship the Lord is somehow a hardship.

If corporate worship is not something you [general] desire greatly to do, don't go to heaven, because there is going to be lots and lots and lots of that going on for a long, long time!

WG, it's not about how one in particular feels. It's about how the church is not to tell a man what his convictions should be where scripture is silent. Churches today want to measure a man's commitment to God by their commitment to a worship service. That's the spirit of religion that was on the pharisees and not the Spirit of Christ. That's why it's labeled legalism.

I certainly desire to be in worship! I dare say, I attend church more often than the vast majority of believers do. Shoot, been in those all day revivals for days in row. The point is, that is between a man and his Lord. That is something for God to put into a man.

In heaven, we no longer will be burdened with other responsibilities that God has given us here to do. That is why he established one day, from the beginning, for us to gather together. He gave us other assignments to keep as well. Now, if one chooses to meet more than once a week, no problem! In Christ, he is free to do so. He is not however, free to place that conviction upon another believer. That is legalism and not from God.

Brother Mark
Apr 30th 2008, 03:57 PM
So if they're slobbing in front of the TV because they can't be bothered to go (the case for most people!), you're saying God's just as pleased with that?

I am not sure you guys are getting the point. There are three issues involved.

1. Our example is one day a week. That was established early on.
2. More than 1 is fine. But we should not put that on the body as a requirement. When we do, we are making traditions of men as commandments of God. That is wrong.
3. God can and does move and speak and grow folks. I have already given an example above when God led me to miss a Sunday morning service. A man got saved as a result.

Now, we can look for all kinds of exceptions, problems, what ifs, and I will always reply the same exact way... do what God says to do.

What's the difference between a man missing church because he is watching TV and one that misses his local church because he went on vacation? Some can say "Well, I attend another church when I go on vacation". So? How is that different than missing your local congregation? What we are doing is creating a vast array of laws and expectations. There is a simple answer. Keep the tradition established by God, as was his habit, Jesus attended service one day a week. More than that is fine but not something God has established or required.

Whispering Grace
Apr 30th 2008, 03:57 PM
Some churches have 4 or more nights a week tied up. That's way too much in our society today.

Perhaps the problem is with society and not with the church.

The Bible does tell us not to be conformed to the world. If modern day society has such a grip on us that it is hampering our devotion to church, maybe what needs to change is our enslavement to this modern world, not our church attendance.

Brother Mark
Apr 30th 2008, 04:00 PM
Perhaps the problem is with society and not with the church.

The Bible does tell us not to be conformed to the world. If modern day society has such a grip on us that it is hampering our devotion to church, maybe what needs to change is our enslavement to this modern world, not our church attendance.

God never established a requirement to meet more than once a week. But some churches have. The church has fallen into the sin of the pharisees in that they have made the traditions of man, even though they might be good, into commandments of God. It is wrong and sinful to do such things.

The minute the church puts a requirement on more than one day a week, they have stepped outside the bounds of scripture and have made themselves a judge of the law instead of a doer.

9Marksfan
Apr 30th 2008, 04:04 PM
I am not sure you guys are getting the point. There are three issues involved.

1. Our example is one day a week. That was established early on.

No - our example was EVERY day!


2. More than 1 is fine. But we should not put that on the body as a requirement. When we do, we are making traditions of men as commandments of God. That is wrong.

But as WG keeps saying, if we are going on, won;t we WANT to meet with our brothers and sisters in Christ more regularly? After all, surely that's a good preparation for Heaven!


3. God can and does move and speak and grow folks. I have already given an example above when God led me to miss a Sunday morning service. A man got saved as a result.

Sorry, haven't read all 8 pages yet! That's great - I too had an experience where I missed church (although Iwas TRYING to get there that showed me God had something else to teach me that day - will share it another time). But I believe that's the EXCEPTION!

Now, we can look for all kinds of exceptions, problems, what ifs, and I will always reply the same exact way... do what God says to do.

What's the difference between a man missing church because he is watching TV and one that misses his local church because he went on vacation? Some can say "Well, I attend another church when I go on vacation". So? How is that different than missing your local congregation? What we are doing is creating a vast array of laws and expectations. There is a simple answer. Keep the tradition established by God, as was his habit, Jesus attended service one day a week. More than that is fine but not something God has established or required.[/quote]

Brother Mark
Apr 30th 2008, 04:19 PM
No - our example was EVERY day!

No it wasn't brother. God, from the beginning, established one day. The early church did meet every day and failed to fulfill their call to go out into the world. God scattered them with persecution and the church grew. Jesus went to synagogue once a week. Not every day. Throughout the word, we see the significance of one day. It is OK to meet more than one day, but that is not the pattern God gave us.


But as WG keeps saying, if we are going on, won;t we WANT to meet with our brothers and sisters in Christ more regularly? After all, surely that's a good preparation for Heaven!

No problem with wanting to. The problem is with putting that expectation on other believers.


Sorry, haven't read all 8 pages yet! That's great - I too had an experience where I missed church (although Iwas TRYING to get there that showed me God had something else to teach me that day - will share it another time). But I believe that's the EXCEPTION!

For the one time a week, you are correct. But if one doesn't want to attend Wednesday night service, a service established by tradition, that is fine.

Paul told us about our responsibilities in 1 Cor. 7. Marriage and family brings with it God given responsibilities. If one wants to be like Anna and spend all her time in the temple, that is wonderful! Let her remain single as Paul suggested.

awestruckchild
Apr 30th 2008, 04:24 PM
Honestly, I can't get past this vibe I am getting in this thread that going to church more than once a week to gather with our brethren and worship the Lord is somehow a hardship.

If corporate worship is not something you [general] desire greatly to do, don't go to heaven, because there is going to be lots and lots and lots of that going on for a long, long time!

I think I may be misunderstanding what you said here.......did you just say that if someone does not attend a "church" and does not participate in "corporate worship", they will not go to heaven?

I am putting in this edit because I just answered my own question by reading your post again and with more care. Sorry I misunderstood. I am too ready to jump I think because of my belief that we rely too much on our "churches" and not enough on Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Once again, sorry.

Redeemed by Grace
Apr 30th 2008, 05:59 PM
God never established a requirement to meet more than once a week. But some churches have. The church has fallen into the sin of the pharisees in that they have made the traditions of man, even though they might be good, into commandments of God. It is wrong and sinful to do such things.

The minute the church puts a requirement on more than one day a week, they have stepped outside the bounds of scripture and have made themselves a judge of the law instead of a doer.

I haven't read the whole thread yet but working my way backwards as time permits, so maybe this was addressed earlier... but you state that God established a requirement to meet once a week... can you point to this within the word?

See, I don't see a set number even if it is once a week being a biblical requirement, thus isn't this also legalism if one says once is enough or what was commanded, if it's not there?

I guess what I see is that some say once is enough, others say 3 times is best, but isn't it to each one who is lead by His Spirit? If the local body is open every day, then those who need will be there. If it's open three times a week, then those who seek will know when to go....

My view of the early church is that it was always busy/open, and I don't think I remember scripture stating any particular day or time of day to meet.

Acts 2:46
Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,


So whatever a church group decides as to when to meet, then those meetings are there to the glory of God...


Romans 14: 22
The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.



So whether it be at home, or at church, with your spouse or without, whether it once a week or 5 times a week, let each one who has faith follow his conviction as to what he should do....


Now my twist [of legalism by some opinion here ;)] is that corporate worship is important and is needed... for we are to edify, correct, exhort and bear one another's burdens along with worshiping the Lord, and a group setting is the place that this naturally happens.

1 Corinthians 11:18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it.
1 Corinthians 11:20 Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper,
1 Corinthians 11:33 So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.


Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.


FWIW...

For His glory...

Son_kissed
Apr 30th 2008, 06:05 PM
This is not about avoiding suffering. I am sure most women married to unbelievers suffer to some extent regardless. But God's Word tells us not to forsake assembling together. We as believers need one another or God would not tell us to come together. And I dare say wives of unbelievers need Christian fellowship even moreso than those not in unequally yoked marriages because these marriages can be very discouraging and hinder our walks with the Lord.

I still don't believe for a minute it would be God's will for a woman to miss church on account of her unbelieving husband. I believe that would go directly against the Word of God. Anything that goes against the Word of God is not from God.

So then what of "daughters" example of the Lord impressing it upon her to do as her husband said? Or Marks example of God impressing it upon him not to attend services the morning that God wanted him to witness to another man instead?

If it was so clear, as you suggest, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. But, the fact is, that while Gods word instructs us not to forsake assembling it ALSO instructs us to be in subjection to our husbands so that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives.

David says in Psalms 119: 33,32: Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end. 34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.

David realized that just assuming to know what each commandment and statute meant and then obeying it wasn‘t going to work. We need God to teach us and give us understanding of “the way“ of the law (or the spirit of it) so we can be properly obedient to it. Because there is also a "way” that seems right to a man… (Prov 14).

We have two examples right here in this thread of people who God impressed it on not to attend church, and people were saved, and then the opposite example that PP gave. I, personally, wouldn’t assume it to be so clear as you do. If I were in the position of having to make that choice, between the two instructions, I would go prayerfully to God. If, then, I felt compelled by God to attend services, even though my husband asked me not to, I would go. If I felt like He wanted me to obey my husband, I would do that. But, I wouldn’t just pick the one I thought was most right and wanted to obey.

We want to put God first always, and that is right! But the commandments are built on the first two, to love God AND your neighbor as yourself. They are not exclusive of each other. If we love God, we will love and serve others. Maybe even on a Sunday, outside of church, if He tells us to.

Jeanne D
Apr 30th 2008, 06:18 PM
Honestly, I can't get past this vibe I am getting in this thread that going to church more than once a week to gather with our brethren and worship the Lord is somehow a hardship.

If corporate worship is not something you [general] desire greatly to do, don't go to heaven, because there is going to be lots and lots and lots of that going on for a long, long time!

Attending more than once a week isn't a hardship, however when you walk in the door, the babies go to the nursery, the young children go to children's church, the adults go into the sanctuary etc...

Nothing wrong with being involved, but there has to be a balance. You can also have "church" at home with your family in the evenings.

Jeanne

ProjectPeter
Apr 30th 2008, 06:19 PM
I haven't read the whole thread yet but working my way backwards as time permits, so maybe this was addressed earlier... but you state that God established a requirement to meet once a week... can you point to this within the word?

See, I don't see a set number even if it is once a week being a biblical requirement, thus isn't this also legalism if one says once is enough or what was commanded, if it's not there?

I guess what I see is that some say once is enough, others say 3 times is best, but isn't it to each one who is lead by His Spirit? If the local body is open every day, then those who need will be there. If it's open three times a week, then those who seek will know when to go....

My view of the early church is that it was always busy/open, and I don't think I remember scripture stating any particular day or time of day to meet.

Acts 2:46
Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,


So whatever a church group decides as to when to meet, then those meetings are there to the glory of God...


Romans 14: 22
The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.



So whether it be at home, or at church, with your spouse or without, whether it once a week or 5 times a week, let each one who has faith follow his conviction as to what he should do....


Now my twist [of legalism by some opinion here ;)] is that corporate worship is important and is needed... for we are to edify, correct, exhort and bear one another's burdens along with worshiping the Lord, and a group setting is the place that this naturally happens.

1 Corinthians 11:18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it.
1 Corinthians 11:20 Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper,
1 Corinthians 11:33 So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.


Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.


FWIW...

For His glory...
Surprise... I agree with you. ;)

Whispering Grace
Apr 30th 2008, 06:24 PM
Surprise... I agree with you. ;)

*falls down and hits her head*

(Don't worry....it won't cause me to miss church tonight! :D)

2 Peter 2:20
Apr 30th 2008, 06:28 PM
Ladies and gentlemen,

As Christians are we not worshipping and giving praise to God all the time? Well, we should be if we aren't. It doesn't matter where we are...whether it is at work, at home, at church, at a ball game, fishing, golfing, shopping...etc. Our light should be shining at all times which brings glory to the Father. Why is it that we want to put God inside the 4 walls of the church? Is that the only place He can be found? Can't the assembly be "where 2 or 3 are gathered in My name"?

Just some things to think about!!

DeafPosttrib
Apr 30th 2008, 07:36 PM
2 Peter 2:20,

I am curious, why do you typed down word, "legalism" for open new topic? Telling us, what the definition for 'legalism' means?

Myself been attened independent fundamental baptist churches years ago. I have seen many baptists are acts like Pharisees, because they like to tell the rumors on people's back. They also, like to judging and criticizing against each other. There are lot of hyprocrites at church. They acts like "saint" with gold ring above their heads think they are "holy" while attend church services. But, they are not godly life at their homes during weeks.

many churches have their own rules and standards. For example, many churches don't allow women to wear jean or pant at the church.

I know there are many wonderful godly ladies who wear pants, their spiritual are better than ladies who always wear dress.

Also, I notice many independent fundamental baptist pastors are actual legalists. Because, I know one of America's well-known IFB pastor who boasted his church - "World's Largest Sunday School", claimed, there are over 100,000 members at his church. His church and college are very high restricted with many rules and very high standards. He thinks he is the world's greatest pastor. He was filled of pride and ego. He was act like Pharisee. But, his son got fell in greater sins. His son was a murderer, commit adultery, married to a playboy lady. Even, pastor, himself was commit adultery with another lady. He refuses to admit it.

When he said something about another colleges, and churches, he always criticize against them.

Guess what? He got heart attack, and died suddenly without expecting.

I don't like legalists' attitude toward people and Christians.

Myself don't like the label name - "legalism". It sounds like as communism or being dicated.

Christ doesn't give us the legalism, Christ gives us the liberty and freedom to worship and serve him.

In Gal. 5:1 says, "Stand fast therefore in the LIBERTY wherewith Christ made us FREE, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."

Christ is not a legalist. Paul was not a legalist.

There was true fact during Christ's ministry on earth. Pharisees and Sects were added more rules and laws such as 'Mosiac Law'. Phraisees were very restrict and always judge and criticize. But, they were filled of hyprocrite. Even, Christ rebuked Pharisees, they are hyprocrite. They are not truly Godly, and holy life.

I have seen so many "Pharisees" at churches today. There are lot of hyprocrites at churches.

That why I hate the word - 'legalism'.

2 Peter 2:20,

Why you typed down the word, 'legalism' in this topic? I am curious.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

ProjectPeter
Apr 30th 2008, 08:36 PM
2 Peter 2:20,

I am curious, why do you typed down word, "legalism" for open new topic? Telling us, what the definition for 'legalism' means?

Myself been attened independent fundamental baptist churches years ago. I have seen many baptists are acts like Pharisees, because they like to tell the rumors on people's back. They also, like to judging and criticizing against each other. There are lot of hyprocrites at church. They acts like "saint" with gold ring above their heads think they are "holy" while attend church services. But, they are not godly life at their homes during weeks.

many churches have their own rules and standards. For example, many churches don't allow women to wear jean or pant at the church.

I know there are many wonderful godly ladies who wear pants, their spiritual are better than ladies who always wear dress.

Also, I notice many independent fundamental baptist pastors are actual legalists. Because, I know one of America's well-known IFB pastor who boasted his church - "World's Largest Sunday School", claimed, there are over 100,000 members at his church. His church and college are very high restricted with many rules and very high standards. He thinks he is the world's greatest pastor. He was filled of pride and ego. He was act like Pharisee. But, his son got fell in greater sins. His son was a murderer, commit adultery, married to a playboy lady. Even, pastor, himself was commit adultery with another lady. He refuses to admit it.

When he said something about another colleges, and churches, he always criticize against them.

Guess what? He got heart attack, and died suddenly without expecting.

I don't like legalists' attitude toward people and Christians.

Myself don't like the label name - "legalism". It sounds like as communism or being dicated.

Christ doesn't give us the legalism, Christ gives us the liberty and freedom to worship and serve him.

In Gal. 5:1 says, "Stand fast therefore in the LIBERTY wherewith Christ made us FREE, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."

Christ is not a legalist. Paul was not a legalist.

There was true fact during Christ's ministry on earth. Pharisees and Sects were added more rules and laws such as 'Mosiac Law'. Phraisees were very restrict and always judge and criticize. But, they were filled of hyprocrite. Even, Christ rebuked Pharisees, they are hyprocrite. They are not truly Godly, and holy life.

I have seen so many "Pharisees" at churches today. There are lot of hyprocrites at churches.

That why I hate the word - 'legalism'.

2 Peter 2:20,

Why you typed down the word, 'legalism' in this topic? I am curious.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
But let me tell you something... while Jack erred on the side of caution... perhaps too much so... That man loved the Lord and my hope is that when I get up there one day... I see him again. I am Pentecostal and not King James Only... but that man took us in his home and his church and he treated us as Scripture said to treat another brethren. Even our disagreements... when Jack introduced me to his church he introduced me as a brother in Christ who was just mistaken... but made it clear that I was just as much a brother in Christ as anyone in his church was. I will add that this shocked me from what I knew of Jack... but he was a true brother and I don't doubt that. His son... his sins are on his own back and his own responsibility.

DeafPosttrib
May 1st 2008, 01:10 PM
Good morning.

I did met Jack in person. His preaching was great. But he often talked on miracles and Holy Spirit.

One day on 'Pentacost Day' at his church, in year around 1996. That church claims there were over 15,000 saved and 5,400 baptized same day. He was seem being boast for "breaking new record" over Acts chapter 2 record. I dislike his attitude. His church was heavily "Easy Believism" of evangelism(soul winning). Also, that church is very strong OSAS.

I did attended his funeral service at that church in 2001. His wife gave lecture or speech during the service. She said, her husband went to see his doctor in 1996. His doctor warns him that he have a high risk chance of having heart attack. So, he told her, do not telling anyone nothing of him. She kept his secert for 5 years.

In my opinion of him. His pride might cause heart attack control by Holy Spirit, because of displeased what of his attitude.

Alsom in 1997, he resigned as committe of Sword of the Lord. My friend told me, Jack criticized against Sword of the Lord, called, them, "liberalism". I say nothing. Wow. I do love Sword of the Lord. I often read maginazes of Sword of the Lord. I met and heard of Dr. Hutson and Dr. Smith's preaching. They are wonderful men. I have many disagreements with them, but I have nothing against them. Because they preach against sins, walk holy living.

There are many churches got into divisions because of rumors, criticizes, judges, debate over issues, and their standards problems too.

I am a baptist, but I rather attend community church(it is also Baptist), because they much more friendly people and good preaching. I know that church is OSAS, but I highly respect them, because they are true godly people. I don't care what they believe, I am interesting in their fruits and spirits. I like them. There is no legalism within my church. That why I love them. I know one wonderful Christian family at my church. Both husband and wife were first met at Grace Community Church under John MacArthur Jr. They moved to Michigan. They are still attending my church, have 9 children! They do NOT have T.V. at home. All 9 children at at their home as 'school'. Parents refuse send their 8 children to either public school or Christian school. Because they know, their children can easily get influenced from kids of worldly things like dirty jokes, beahviors, etc. That why, mother of 9 children, she is teaching them at home as school. I notice their children are TRULY GODLY! They are so friendly! I like children's father. He is so nice man. I was once invited to their house. That house impressed me. In the living room, there were whole books on shelves, all are Christian. And I do not see T.V. there. Wow! They are a wonderful Godly Christian family!

Also, one elder of my church, he sends his daughter to Calvin College in Grand Rapids. I won't say anything to him of that college, I respect him. Because I can see his fruit is a truly wonderful godly man.

Hey, you know there are many Calvinists are truly wonderful Christians like Arminians. I do believe many Calvinists are in heaven. Not because of their beliefs, because of their fruits. I am more interesting in people's fruits than beliefs of doctrines issues.

We know that God is more interesting in us by showing our fruits of John 15:1-6 then just hearer or "talker" only.

Many people who attend churches, acts as religiously as godly. But, they are hyprcorite, because they have two faces. They like to criticize, judge, rumor on another people. But, their sins are still in their hearts.

A person who is a 'legalist', who like to judge, criticize, rumor, being boast as ego for be act as religiously, showing them that they think he/she is strong Christian. But, not. They deceive them.

That why, John warns us that, we must watch out for 'antichrists' of John 4:1-3. There are many antichrists in churches today. That why I do not like legalists. They are filled of hyprocrites.

God wants us to be honest, showing them truly fruits and also, LOVE too.

Sorry for being long post! ;)

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

ProjectPeter
May 1st 2008, 01:46 PM
Good morning.

I did met Jack in person. His preaching was great. But he often talked on miracles and Holy Spirit.

One day on 'Pentacost Day' at his church, in year around 1996. That church claims there were over 15,000 saved and 5,400 baptized same day. He was seem being boast for "breaking new record" over Acts chapter 2 record. I dislike his attitude. His church was heavily "Easy Believism" of evangelism(soul winning). Also, that church is very strong OSAS.

I did attended his funeral service at that church in 2001. His wife gave lecture or speech during the service. She said, her husband went to see his doctor in 1996. His doctor warns him that he have a high risk chance of having heart attack. So, he told her, do not telling anyone nothing of him. She kept his secert for 5 years.

In my opinion of him. His pride might cause heart attack control by Holy Spirit, because of displeased what of his attitude.

Alsom in 1997, he resigned as committe of Sword of the Lord. My friend told me, Jack criticized against Sword of the Lord, called, them, "liberalism". I say nothing. Wow. I do love Sword of the Lord. I often read maginazes of Sword of the Lord. I met and heard of Dr. Hutson and Dr. Smith's preaching. They are wonderful men. I have many disagreements with them, but I have nothing against them. Because they preach against sins, walk holy living.

There are many churches got into divisions because of rumors, criticizes, judges, debate over issues, and their standards problems too.

I am a baptist, but I rather attend community church(it is also Baptist), because they much more friendly people and good preaching. I know that church is OSAS, but I highly respect them, because they are true godly people. I don't care what they believe, I am interesting in their fruits and spirits. I like them. There is no legalism within my church. That why I love them. I know one wonderful Christian family at my church. Both husband and wife were first met at Grace Community Church under John MacArthur Jr. They moved to Michigan. They are still attending my church, have 9 children! They do NOT have T.V. at home. All 9 children at at their home as 'school'. Parents refuse send their 8 children to either public school or Christian school. Because they know, their children can easily get influenced from kids of worldly things like dirty jokes, beahviors, etc. That why, mother of 9 children, she is teaching them at home as school. I notice their children are TRULY GODLY! They are so friendly! I like children's father. He is so nice man. I was once invited to their house. That house impressed me. In the living room, there were whole books on shelves, all are Christian. And I do not see T.V. there. Wow! They are a wonderful Godly Christian family!

Also, one elder of my church, he sends his daughter to Calvin College in Grand Rapids. I won't say anything to him of that college, I respect him. Because I can see his fruit is a truly wonderful godly man.

Hey, you know there are many Calvinists are truly wonderful Christians like Arminians. I do believe many Calvinists are in heaven. Not because of their beliefs, because of their fruits. I am more interesting in people's fruits than beliefs of doctrines issues.

We know that God is more interesting in us by showing our fruits of John 15:1-6 then just hearer or "talker" only.

Many people who attend churches, acts as religiously as godly. But, they are hyprcorite, because they have two faces. They like to criticize, judge, rumor on another people. But, their sins are still in their hearts.

A person who is a 'legalist', who like to judge, criticize, rumor, being boast as ego for be act as religiously, showing them that they think he/she is strong Christian. But, not. They deceive them.

That why, John warns us that, we must watch out for 'antichrists' of John 4:1-3. There are many antichrists in churches today. That why I do not like legalists. They are filled of hyprocrites.

God wants us to be honest, showing them truly fruits and also, LOVE too.

Sorry for being long post! ;)

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
No doubt... Jack was a different character. :lol: Hadn't thought of him in a while.

DeafPosttrib
May 1st 2008, 02:08 PM
Oh Yes! During Jack's early life, he was a normal wonderful godly man and humble man. When after the death of Dr. John R. Rice, Jack change his attitude, and becoming more pride and ego himself. During in year 1990's, he becoming much more legalism and much of ego. That why, many Christians dislike him because of his pride and ego.

I lost in respect Jack than John Rice.

I still do highly admire Late Dr. John R. Rice, because of his sincerely godly life. He was a truly humble man. He believed in OSAS. But, he always preaching against sins, and high standard. I never meet him in person. Because he died many years ago in 1980. I was so young. But, I did meet John's sister-in-law - Cathy Rice. She is a truly wonderful godly lady. I attend Bill Rice Ranch several times. I know Ronnie Rice well. he is adopted son of Cathy Rice. I went to deaf revival in Grand Rapids to see Ronnie Rice preaching last fall. Ronnie Rice is not a legalist. He is a wonderful humble godly man. He and I both get along so well.

Sad, Hyles and Bill Rice Ranch, both are not get along each other before his death. You see, there are many baptist churches are divided over standards. They must stop judge each other. They have to respect each other with love. As what the Bible saying so.

Several weeks ago, I read your profile. You saying you go to Cleveland Tenn. For doing ministry at Pentacostal churches? Do you know Church of Christ and college in Cleveland? I am sure that you saw and heard it before many times. I used to live in neat Chattanooga, Tenn while I wa sin bible college. While I was at college, President do often mentioned on Church of Christ, he against it because of baptism salvation, and believe in lose salvation. Whilst I was a student at that college, I used to believe in OSAS before. I thought OSAS was a truth doctrine. But, I found out there are too many errors within OSAS doctrine conflict with Bible. I really so disappoint with baptist churches on OSAS. Because they misleading thousands of people for believing in it, while sinning life, still believe they are already saved.

Oh well, I am off from the track. Sorry.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Revinius
May 1st 2008, 02:32 PM
I have seen someone badgered out of their Church because they missed a couple of services and people kept bombarding them with their concern. It was so full on they couldnt handle the 'subtle harassment'. I think people should harden up and stop making rules for the masses. If you want to put up fence laws in your life your welcome to, but dont throw them at me as a law when clearly they are not. Fences are sound advice, but they arent law. Its true though that if you love Jesus you desire to meet with His people, so do so and do it with vigour.

9Marksfan
May 1st 2008, 03:31 PM
Hey, you know there are many Calvinists are truly wonderful Christians like Arminians.

You make it sound like you're a "better" Christian if you're an Arminian - correct?


I do believe many Calvinists are in heaven. Not because of their beliefs, because of their fruits.

So what do you find unbiblical about Calvinist beliefs? Don't you think what people believe matters? What if a Hindu had a really gracious, gentle, kind and loving attitude - a really selfless person - would they go to Heaven despite their beliefs?


I am more interesting in people's fruits than beliefs of doctrines issues.

But aren't our beliefs an evidence of the state of our hearts? Doesn't the new birth affect what we believe?


We know that God is more interesting in us by showing our fruits of John 15:1-6 then just hearer or "talker" only.

Agreed, but do you think our beliefs are unimportant to Him?


Many people who attend churches, acts as religiously as godly. But, they are hyprcorite, because they have two faces. They like to criticize, judge, rumor on another people. But, their sins are still in their hearts.

Amen.


A person who is a 'legalist', who like to judge, criticize, rumor, being boast as ego for be act as religiously, showing them that they think he/she is strong Christian. But, not. They deceive them.

You mentioned Dr Hutson - I'm assuming that's Curtis Hutson? I read a booklet of his called "Why I Disagree With All Five Points of Calvinism" - in it he was boasting of how big his church was and how much it had grown under HIS ministry - not much humility there - he was trying to imply that his church was big and blessed because he was preaching the truth - Arminianism flatters man because it says he is master of his own destiny and makes it easy for him to become a Christian - I'm not surprised Arminian churches are big!


That why, John warns us that, we must watch out for 'antichrists' of John 4:1-3. There are many antichrists in churches today. That why I do not like legalists. They are filled of hyprocrites.

God wants us to be honest, showing them truly fruits and also, LOVE too.

Sorry for being long post! ;)

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

Good points - if you were a Calvinist, you'd be perfect! ;)

DeafPosttrib
May 1st 2008, 10:04 PM
9Marksfan,

More important that, both Calvinists and Arminians believe in Jesus Christ, realize that Christ died for their sins, and they received Christ as personal saviour.

Our beliefs are important. But, also, we must practical with our beliefs both go together.

You asked me what about Hindu? Well, there are many good people likr religions. I know many people are wonderful and nice. But, they miss something, is need Jesus Christ.

Thier good life and good works, doesn't matter to God. God interesting that they have Jesus Christ in them.

Yes, you are correct on Late Dr. Curtis Hutson. I did met him in personal. He knows some sign language well. His daughter is an interpreter at the church. That why, he knew some signs.

I have his booklet - 'Why I Disagree with Calvinists' Five Points'.

While he was a pastor at Forest Hills Baptist Church in Decatur in area of Atlanta. His church was the America's fastest growing church. His church grew from 30 members to 7,900 in year around early 1970's.

In 1974, he resigned as pastor, became evangelist.

Dr. Pendall replaced him as pastor. Sadly, he fell into greater sin by commit adultery with women. That church got into split so badly.

Then, that church sold building to black church, moved to Stone Mountian.

Guess what? That church is no longer remain being exist today. It is gone and no members. All are scattered away for good.

You see, OSAS is a dangerous. Sorry, I am off the track on this topic.

Setting higher standards and restrict rules do not helping peoplke to be a strong Christians. Because many churches which are legalism, many people easily worshipping their own leaders than focus on God/Jesus. Also, they easily criticize other churches or their own members, they think, they are better than them. But, they have no true love for each other. They need return back to their first love where were begin with.

Some people think, legalism is a cult. Depend on what type of that church is. Only God knows churches of their spiritual, what they are. Many people who are legalists, are actual hyprocrite. Because of their pride and ego, think they are better than them. Also, they acts like 'god'.

Bible teaches us, we must be humble before people with the right attitude and being friendly and to be kind toward each other with love. That what the church should be.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

DeafPosttrib
May 1st 2008, 10:06 PM
By the way, I am neither Calvinist or Arminian either. I am a Christ's follower. But, in many areas I agree with Arminians and even with John Wesley's beliefs. My belief is more close to Arminian, because of Biblical.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Brother Mark
May 1st 2008, 11:05 PM
I haven't read the whole thread yet but working my way backwards as time permits, so maybe this was addressed earlier... but you state that God established a requirement to meet once a week... can you point to this within the word?

See, I don't see a set number even if it is once a week being a biblical requirement, thus isn't this also legalism if one says once is enough or what was commanded, if it's not there?

I guess what I see is that some say once is enough, others say 3 times is best, but isn't it to each one who is lead by His Spirit? If the local body is open every day, then those who need will be there. If it's open three times a week, then those who seek will know when to go....

My view of the early church is that it was always busy/open, and I don't think I remember scripture stating any particular day or time of day to meet.

Acts 2:46
Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,


So whatever a church group decides as to when to meet, then those meetings are there to the glory of God...


Romans 14: 22
The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.



So whether it be at home, or at church, with your spouse or without, whether it once a week or 5 times a week, let each one who has faith follow his conviction as to what he should do....


Now my twist [of legalism by some opinion here ;)] is that corporate worship is important and is needed... for we are to edify, correct, exhort and bear one another's burdens along with worshiping the Lord, and a group setting is the place that this naturally happens.

1 Corinthians 11:18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it.
1 Corinthians 11:20 Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper,
1 Corinthians 11:33 So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.


Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.


FWIW...

For His glory...


I have no issue with what you wrote. I don't think I said established once I day. I think I said patterned once a day. Wait, I do recall writing established from the beginning, so you got me. ;)

The best I can find is that Jesus met at the synagogue, as was his habit. And that God, established the sabbath day to keep it holy. It was part of the 10 commandments later. Etc, etc. I think it's safe to say that meeting once a week is a reasonable standard. However, Scripture doesn't command it! So we are free to meet 1 time a month if that is the best for the group of individuals. Isn't that the way some of the early churches in the pioneer days did it? They have traveling preachers and the preacher would make his rounds during the month and have services at various churches. I would never say they sinned by failing to meet more often. But I do believe that Jesus provided us with a pattern in that he was in the synagogue once a week as a custom. And that God told us to keep the sabbath holy.

Redeemed by Grace
May 2nd 2008, 01:50 AM
I have no issue with what you wrote. I don't think I said established once I day. I think I said patterned once a day. Wait, I do recall writing established from the beginning, so you got me. ;)

The best I can find is that Jesus met at the synagogue, as was his habit. And that God, established the sabbath day to keep it holy. It was part of the 10 commandments later. Etc, etc. I think it's safe to say that meeting once a week is a reasonable standard. However, Scripture doesn't command it! So we are free to meet 1 time a month if that is the best for the group of individuals. Isn't that the way some of the early churches in the pioneer days did it? They have traveling preachers and the preacher would make his rounds during the month and have services at various churches. I would never say they sinned by failing to meet more often. But I do believe that Jesus provided us with a pattern in that he was in the synagogue once a week as a custom. And that God told us to keep the sabbath holy.


Let's rewind the tape Earl...



I am not sure you guys are getting the point. There are three issues involved.

1. Our example is one day a week. That was established early on.
2. More than 1 is fine. But we should not put that on the body as a requirement. When we do, we are making traditions of men as commandments of God. That is wrong.
3. God can and does move and speak and grow folks. I have already given an example above when God led me to miss a Sunday morning service. A man got saved as a result.

Now, we can look for all kinds of exceptions, problems, what ifs, and I will always reply the same exact way... do what God says to do.

What's the difference between a man missing church because he is watching TV and one that misses his local church because he went on vacation? Some can say "Well, I attend another church when I go on vacation". So? How is that different than missing your local congregation? What we are doing is creating a vast array of laws and expectations. There is a simple answer. Keep the tradition established by God, as was his habit, Jesus attended service one day a week. More than that is fine but not something God has established or required.



God never established a requirement to meet more than once a week. But some churches have. The church has fallen into the sin of the pharisees in that they have made the traditions of man, even though they might be good, into commandments of God. It is wrong and sinful to do such things.

The minute the church puts a requirement on more than one day a week, they have stepped outside the bounds of scripture and have made themselves a judge of the law instead of a doer.


No it wasn't brother. God, from the beginning, established one day. The early church did meet every day and failed to fulfill their call to go out into the world. God scattered them with persecution and the church grew. Jesus went to synagogue once a week. Not every day. [RbG - I need some biblical help to see that it was only once a week and what the significance is if so?] Throughout the word, we see the significance of one day. It is OK to meet more than one day, but that is not the pattern God gave us.



I haven't read the whole thread yet but working my way backwards as time permits, so maybe this was addressed earlier... but you state that God established a requirement to meet once a week... can you point to this within the word?


The caution I suggest is that to say meeting only once and that it's the biblical example is just as legalistic as saying one must meet 1 PLUS X....

My point is

Romans 14: 22
The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.


So whether it be at home, or at church, with your spouse or without, whether it once a week or 5 times a week, let each one who has faith follow his conviction as to what he should do....


FWIW....

Brother Mark
May 2nd 2008, 02:02 AM
Let's rewind the tape Earl...

The caution I suggest is that to say meeting only once and that it's the biblical example is just as legalistic as saying one must meet 1 PLUS X....

My point is

Romans 14: 22
The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.


So whether it be at home, or at church, with your spouse or without, whether it once a week or 5 times a week, let each one who has faith follow his conviction as to what he should do....


FWIW....


Like I said, it's an example. Most of my point in this entire thread has been let the Lord lead you in what you are going to do. For me to put my convictions on you would be legalistic without firm ground to stand on scripturally. An example of once a week can be found in scripture but so can an example of more than once a week.

What do we have from scripture? Don't forsake the assembling of ourselves together.

You misunderstand me if you think I put a once a week requirement on someone. I just think a better case can be made for once a week than can be made for more than once a week. If you read closely, I already gave an example where God TOLD me to not attend a once a week service.

I am not anyone's master. So I won't be putting my convictions on another when it comes to gray areas. That's between them and the Lord. On the clear passages, I will speak if prompted by God, but even then, I will not expect others to listen nor will I expect them to reject. People do what people do. They don't belong to me so I pray for them but don't try to control them. Legalism tries to control folks. Yet, we do have church discipline. We can dissect more if you want to.

Jamey
May 2nd 2008, 02:12 AM
The people that Jesus criticized the most were the religious leaders of the day. He didn't criticize because they didn't know the law word for word. He was criticizing them because they didn't follow the law as it was intended....with their hearts.
Over and over again, Christ taught that it wasn't the ver batim that mattered. Every time you read "you have heard......." was a set up line for showing us what the law meant.
If you would pass someone in need and not help them because you would be late for church service.... how could you be worshiping and praising God? Sure you didn't forsake assembly, but you missed the whole point of worshiping God, by loving someone else.
We have to be careful about swallowing the camel to strain a gnat.

Redeemed by Grace
May 2nd 2008, 11:17 AM
Like I said, it's an example. Most of my point in this entire thread has been let the Lord lead you in what you are going to do. For me to put my convictions on you would be legalistic without firm ground to stand on scripturally. An example of once a week can be found in scripture but so can an example of more than once a week.

OK…. Your past comments have stated that "one day a week was established early on", but if you are meaning that once a week is not the prescribed number, I then would understand your comments. But point of clarification, legalism is not putting one's convictions on another…. Legalism is taking a doctrinal point and add to that point. Most times - based on the human desire of a work of religiosity.





What do we have from scripture? Don't forsake the assembling of ourselves together.

Excellent.... My point as well.



You misunderstand me if you think I put a once a week requirement on someone. I just think a better case can be made for once a week than can be made for more than once a week. If you read closely, I already gave an example where God TOLD me to not attend a once a week service.

Well your words then contradict each other, for reading your words as I have highlighted in my last post shows, you have declared that 'once a week is the ‘right’ number…' You also declare to link it back to the ‘day of rest’ in insinuating that this means ‘day of church’, which I have left alone, but to your opening paragraph, if you are declaring that this is not what you meant, then we can agree.



I am not anyone's master. So I won't be putting my convictions on another when it comes to gray areas. That's between them and the Lord. On the clear passages, I will speak if prompted by God, but even then, I will not expect others to listen nor will I expect them to reject. People do what people do. They don't belong to me so I pray for them but don't try to control them. Legalism tries to control folks. Yet, we do have church discipline. We can dissect more if you want to.


Again legalism is not throwing one’s convictions on another… it is about adding to the law…. Or making something a law that it is not. And then calling it right. So it can be on yourself as well as on another.

Staying focused on the gathering, the bible doesn’t say once a week or 20 times, but just come together. So I’ve never stated that you or I are anyone’s master, my comment to you is that you have stated more than once that the bible states that we are to meet once a week, and I asked where in the bible do you find that? And as we both know, the church hasn’t been given a prescribed time to gather, for the early church met daily as their practice…. Does that mean we are to as well? I say no, that’s open for what the local church sets as their desire…and that each man needs to seek as he is being lead. End of point.


Have a great day as God leads. :)

Brother Mark
May 2nd 2008, 11:39 AM
But point of clarification, legalism is not putting one's convictions on another…. Legalism is taking a doctrinal point and add to that point. Most times - based on the human desire of a work of religiosity.

I see those as the same thing. What's a conviction? It's something in addition to a doctrinal point, at least in the way I was trying to communicate it. One might be convicted to live holy and then be convicted to give up watching TV. That is fine. But then to start teaching others to live holy by giving up TV has moved into legalism.


Well your words then contradict each other, for reading your words as I have highlighted in my last post shows, you have declared that 'once a week is the ‘right’ number…' You also declare to link it back to the ‘day of rest’ in insinuating that this means ‘day of church’, which I have left alone, but to your opening paragraph, if you are declaring that this is not what you meant, then we can agree.

I see the two combined because of the command to "keep it holy". But as I have stated repeatedly, there is a difference in my mind between a command and a pattern. I have no issue saying it is a pattern. I will say again that once a week seems to be the right pattern. But that doesn't mean that if a church meets 1 time a month they are in sin. If you think that's contradictory, that's OK.


Again legalism is not throwing one’s convictions on another… it is about adding to the law…. Or making something a law that it is not. And then calling it right. So it can be on yourself as well as on another.

Oh, I agree with that. Whether you put it on yourself or another, legalism is legalism. My definition is purposefully simple. Why? Because legalism can be quite complicated. One can give up TV because God told one to give it up. Nothing in law or scripture about it. Is that person legalistic for adding to the law? No. Not until they begin to teach that all people should do it. For them, it is the right thing to do as God has instructed them to do it. But for them to teach other's to do it, that is wrong. That's why in general, I use the definition I used above, to put one's convictions on another. To be even clearer, it would be one putting their personal convictions as doctrine.


Staying focused on the gathering, the bible doesn’t say once a week or 20 times, but just come together. So I’ve never stated that you or I are anyone’s master, my comment to you is that you have stated more than once that the bible states that we are to meet once a week, and I asked where in the bible do you find that? And as we both know, the church hasn’t been given a prescribed time to gather, for the early church met daily as their practice…. Does that mean we are to as well? I say no, that’s open for what the local church sets as their desire…and that each man needs to seek as he is being lead. End of point.

As the Lord said "as oft as you do this, do it in remembrance of me". That was the instruction of the Lord's supper. I already said that daily was a pattern in acts. I do think we have a pattern established by the Sabbath day. But one can keep a sabbath day holy with no meeting or fellowship with the brothers. I also already stated before this post that if a church meets 1 time a month, then they are withing biblical bounds. Not sure what more you want me to say. I won't back off of the pattern thing. I think it's there. But as I said before, it's a pattern and not a command. There's a difference. Jesus, as was his custom, attended synagogue once a week.

Anyway, have a good day.

Redeemed by Grace
May 2nd 2008, 12:16 PM
Hi BM...




<SNIP>

As the Lord said "as oft as you do this, do it in remembrance of me". That was the instruction of the Lord's supper. I already said that daily was a pattern in acts. I do think we have a pattern established by the Sabbath day. But one can keep a sabbath day holy with no meeting or fellowship with the brothers. I also already stated before this post that if a church meets 1 time a month, then they are withing biblical bounds. Not sure what more you want me to say. I won't back off of the pattern thing. I think it's there. But as I said before, it's a pattern and not a command. There's a difference. Jesus, as was his custom, attended synagogue once a week.

Anyway, have a good day.

Sorry to come back to this, but I need to know where in the bible you find that Jesus attended synagogue once a week? I just can't seem to find within the word that He was their just once in a week...

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks


And the other point which is not something I want to tie into this yet, but are not the churches different from synagogues? Maybe later.... But finding the references that Jesus attended synagogue once a week is what I'd like to see answered.

Brother Mark
May 2nd 2008, 12:21 PM
Hi BM...



Sorry to come back to this, but I need to know where in the bible you find that Jesus attended synagogue once a week? I just can't seem to find within the word that He was their just once in a week...

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks


And the other point which is not something I want to tie into this yet, but are not the churches different from synagogues? Maybe later.... But finding the references that Jesus attended synagogue once a week is what I'd like to see answered.

Luke 4:16

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
KJV

Redeemed by Grace
May 2nd 2008, 12:31 PM
Luke 4:16

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
KJV


So Brother Mark, are you then saying by this verse that He only went to synagogue just on the Jewish Sabbath?


My point is that Jesus frequented the Synagogue more than once a week, but this verse states what he did on the time of the Sabbath and not that this was the only time He was there.

Brother Mark
May 2nd 2008, 02:50 PM
So Brother Mark, are you then saying by this verse that He only went to synagogue just on the Jewish Sabbath?


My point is that Jesus frequented the Synagogue more than once a week, but this verse states what he did on the time of the Sabbath and not that this was the only time He was there.

My implication is that it was his custom to be there once a week. However, he also went to the temple at times other than the Sabbath because we know he was there for 3 days when he was 12. Of course he spent a lot of time learning and reading, and speaking with others, etc. But it was his custom to go to synagogue on the sabbath. For me, that is a pattern. We see him in the temple and fellowshipping at other times too. I have no issue with that. The early church met every day.

Redeemed by Grace
May 2nd 2008, 06:54 PM
My implication is that it was his custom to be there once a week. However, he also went to the temple at times other than the Sabbath because we know he was there for 3 days when he was 12. Of course he spent a lot of time learning and reading, and speaking with others, etc. But it was his custom to go to synagogue on the sabbath. For me, that is a pattern. We see him in the temple and fellowshipping at other times too. I have no issue with that. The early church met every day.

It's good to hear we are now on the same page...