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SoldierOfChrist
Apr 28th 2008, 12:56 AM
You may beleive it but to agree with it you have to agree with everything,anyone can say they agree with the bible,you see we all have a portion of the holy ghost when we are saved,but you dont have it all,and to be the bride you have to have it all.

Where is that written? You have the Holy Spirit or you don't as far as I'm concerned... someone please correct me with scripture if you think I'm wrong?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

I think you are confusing the gifts of the Spirit with the Spirit... do some only have half a Spirit? I think not. This reminds me of the RCC ordination by laying on one hand or two... as if they would get half the anointing from only one hand. :o

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.



And how can someone truly be filled and not agree in the word,let me say this,many say they have the holy ghost...Let me say that we can agree with the Word (the Spirit) and question a few scriptures. For instance I question 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and would probably argue that it would have been better to write if someone was not annointed with the Holy Spirit they should speak in the church.... another subject.



And by the way being filled is the same as being indwelled with the holy spirit,for something to indwell in you you have to be filled with it,its the same thing.I certainly agree here! I just don't think there is a partial indwelling as you described... you got it or you don't. I also have a problem with people believing that they need any gift like healing or tongues as an important aspect of the Spirit, because just walking with the Spirit of the Lord is far greater than any gift.

Michael

quiet dove
Apr 28th 2008, 09:02 PM
I have an open mind here but the scripture you quote to support this certainly don't support what you say it does! I have to disagree that upon believing we are indwelt.

Here are the scriptures you quote:

2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

2 Corinthians 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

None of the above really tell us that they received the spirit because the believed. It just says after they believed they were sealed (baptized). These scriptures below show that they did already believe and had not received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Acts 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

They were sealed by the baptism of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands, they already believed.

Michael

Look at those verses again
Act 19:2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

Besides, laying on of hands nor baptism for that matter is required for a person to believe or be indwelt by the Spirit.

The verses I quoted made the statement " manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all" The speaking in tongues, a gift of the Spirit, was to "the profit of all" to show that it was truly Jesus building this new entity the Church. An outward sign, just like healing or any of the other gifts. However, a person can accept Christ, believe, be saved, in the quiet of their own home, not having anyone praying or laying on hands or them speaking in tongues, and be just as saved. Tongues are not required to prove the indwelling of the Spirit or salvation.

Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
And as already quoted about the Holy Spirit giving the gifts:
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with people speaking in tongues, or any of the other gifts, but tongues is just that, a gift of the Spirit, where as the Spirit, is a gift from God to seal His own. And I would also believe that all who are saved, and indwelt with the Spirit receive one or more gifts, but receiving any of these gifts is for the benefit of the Church, and a witness, but are not proof of salvation. Lot of people out there doing a lot of things that appear to be signs and wonders, but they are false, the person doing them as no idea who Christ is.

LivingSacrafice
May 1st 2008, 01:21 AM
LivingSacrafice :) you may be just misreading what he is saying.

He is not a downplaying the word(Bible) He is pointing out the extreme authority of
the Word - (Jesus)


And if anyone here implies that "the laying of the hands" is the requirement to receive the Holy Spirit, It simply is Not true. No Mans' Hands were there for me. Mans hands would have ignored me, would not have reached for me in the place that I was. Only One Hand was there to reach for me. It was the hand of the Word ...I new nothing of the word.

Tongues - yes a sign, But I ask - THE sign ? ...seriously, when the Holy Spirit enters ones body, the question posed by this thread is not question.

When you are truly filled with the holy spirit theres and utterance that comes,and you begin to speak in tongues.So thats probally the first sign of truly being filled.

IamBill
May 1st 2008, 01:56 AM
When you are truly filled with the holy spirit theres and utterance that comes,and you begin to speak in tongues.So thats probally the first sign of truly being filled.

Bummer, you're telling me Jesus only gave me half a dose then huh ?
sort of ...short changed me on the promise ?




.

quiet dove
May 1st 2008, 02:03 AM
Bummer, you're telling me Jesus only gave me half a dose then huh ?
sort of ...short changed me on the promise ?


Certainly not! You are in Christ Jesus and indwelt with the Spirit whether you speak in tongues or not. The priority is walking in the Spirit and that comes with daily obedience and submission. If the Spirit gives you a gift, be it tongues or healing or prophecy or all of them they will be for the glorification of Christ and the edification of the Church Body. But you completely covered by Christ with nothing of Him lacking as far as what He has given you. What you need to do is continue growing and maturing, same thing all of us need to do!

As far as how this applies to this thread, if we stick to scriptures, we will not believe the false ones or one when they come along claiming to be of Christ, we have scripture to check all things. And we have the Spirit within us to guide us, teach us, speak to us. Might I suggest doing a search of the New Testament for "Spirit", see what you get.

IamBill
May 1st 2008, 02:25 AM
Thank you quiet dove, and I know.


just stunned






.

LivingSacrafice
May 1st 2008, 02:36 AM
Thank you quiet dove, and I know.


just stunned






.
No for one when your saved you a portion of it,being saved does not make you the bride of christ,When jesus comes back when the rapture happens hes not coming back for those that are saved but those that are filled with the real holy ghost,when your saved you have some of it thats why your able to stay saved because it corrects you and keeps you right.But if you had none of it how would you even be able to stay saved and try to recieve all of the holy spirit.

RevLogos
May 1st 2008, 02:58 AM
No for one when your saved you a portion of it,being saved does not make you the bride of christ,When jesus comes back when the rapture happens hes not coming back for those that are saved but those that are filled with the real holy ghost,when your saved you have some of it thats why your able to stay saved because it corrects you and keeps you right.But if you had none of it how would you even be able to stay saved and try to recieve all of the holy spirit.

So you're saying I only got part of the Holy Spirit? Is it some percentage, like 30% of the HS? Or did I get the blue light special HS? What do I have to do to get the rest of the deal? Is there some "work" I have to do to get the rest of it? Do I have to upgrade to HS Version 2.0? I must have missed the Bible verses that point this out. Is it in the fine print somewhere? Can you point me to this scripture?

Yes I am being facetious but yes the questions are serious.

IamBill
May 1st 2008, 03:34 AM
--------


Ya know something LivingSacrafice ?

There are people who's lives literally hang from the thread you cut upon.
I'm sure you don't mean to do that.

perhaps you need to show support of your words.


being saved does not make you the bride of christ
FYI, Jesus could rightfully throw me in hell, Knowing him is more than I could have asked for.

I am becoming speechless.

SoldierOfChrist
May 1st 2008, 06:35 AM
You know I really want to answer this but I don't know where to start? I don't have much time today.

LivingSacrafice you are proof a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous. You need to quote scripture to support your arguments. Please try and choose your words more carefully.

The greatest gift is the Holy Spirit. I am going to agree that not all believers have the Holy Spirit. Sorry guys I have been to many a church and I can say that some have no Holy Spirit in any of the members and they still believe. Now some of them think they have it but they have no sign inwardly or outwardly.

The gifts of the Spirit are gifts and are usually for the benifit of the church and have little to do with walking with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

1 Corinthians 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

Do all speak with an unknown tongue? It reads let him that does it does not say all.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1 Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

So I have only sang with the Spirit in an unknown tongue and I have never spoke in tongues... do I have the partial Spirit. Does that mean those that only sing in tongues are not going to be saved because we don't have the full Spirit?

1 Corinthians 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

1 Corinthians 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

1 Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

It is the inward manifestation that is important as you have received the promise.

You either have the Holy Spirit or you don't, and you know when you have the Holy Spirit because you know the minute you recieved the Spirit. Right Bill? Many that are tought of God are separate from the others and the teaching they provide, instead they are lead by the Spirit and not man.

I think I already said that?

Michael

Diggindeeper
May 1st 2008, 06:45 AM
The holy spirit wrote the bible,this is how all these men in the bible wrote the bible through the holy spirits leading.The word is God,and the word became flesh which would be Jesus.So if someone doesnt agree with the word from Genesis to Revelations how can they have the holy spirit.Im not trying to prove you wrong,because I know theres things you say that are true,but when you recieve the holy spirit thats a gift,in my bible which is the holy bible the true word of God it says when the first christians were filled with the holy ghost they began to speak in tongues,so that shows that thats a sign of having the Holy Ghost.And also if a saved person didnt have any holy ghost in them how could they stay saved,theres no real saved person that could stay saved with out some of the holy ghost,because the holy ghost is there to correct us,now when recieve the holy ghost in full measure you begin to speak in tongues thats a sign of having the holy ghost.

Im not here to use any strategy or logic to get my point out,like I said theres much for me to learn but I know some stuff.

let me also say that the indwelling of the holy spirit is the same as being filled with the holy spirit,when you are filled it dwells in you.I added that because one of you posted something again about that.

Anyways much love but the truth must not be flipped,and if in anyway I ever flipp the scriptures INTENTIONALLY and cause anyone to fall from God may I not live any longer after that,and some might say thats a little crazy,but no I would never want to hurt and unbeliever or a believer by pouring out lies and causing them to fall from God,that would be so selfish.

LivingSacrafice, you have made some pretty strong statements here, but I cannot totally agree with all that you say. For one thing you said this,

"Im not trying to prove you wrong,because I know theres things you say that are true,but when you recieve the holy spirit thats a gift,in my bible which is the holy bible the true word of God it says when the first christians were filled with the holy ghost they began to speak in tongues,so that shows that thats a sign of having the Holy Ghost.And also if a saved person didnt have any holy ghost in them how could they stay saved,theres no real saved person that could stay saved with out some of the holy ghost,because the holy ghost is there to correct us,now when recieve the holy ghost in full measure you begin to speak in tongues thats a sign of having the holy ghost."

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that when we "recieve the holy ghost in full measure you begin to speak in tongues thats a sign of having the holy ghost."

I offer there are other signs that a person is filled with the Holy Ghost! For example, consider this--
Acts 4:31
31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

I know you probably come here from a denomination that teaches tongues are THE sign you are filled with the Holy Ghost. Yet, I offer the above scripture is ANOTHER SIGN.

Also, Jesus said this--
John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Holy Ghost teaches us!

John 15:26
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost (according to John 14:26!) is the Spirit of truth!

It is not the gift of tongues that teaches us, or causes us to testify of Him, or causes us to speak the word of God with boldness...but the Holy Ghost.


1 Corinthians 12:4-11
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. (There are different kinds of gifts! Not just ONE.)

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. (It is the SAME God that works in all!)

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. (These different MANIFESTATIONS are listed in the scriptures below.)

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Perhaps you have the gift of tongues, another has the gift of healing, another the gift of discerning of spirits....

So, lets be careful saying things like, "when you recieve the holy ghost in full measure you begin to speak in tongues" unless you can back it up with scripture.

9Marksfan
May 1st 2008, 09:49 AM
I am going to agree that not all believers have the Holy Spirit.

So how do you reconcile that with this verse?

...Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Rom 8:9b NKJV


Sorry guys I have been to many a church and I can say that some have no Holy Spirit in any of the members and they still believe.

It's possible to assent to the truth without being a believer - Satan's theology is very sound!


Now some of them think they have it but they have no sign inwardly or outwardly.

First of all, please remember that the HS is the Spirit of GOD, so it borders on blasphemy to refer to Him as "it". Secondly, what sign inwardly or outwardly would they need to have, in your opinion?


It is the inward manifestation that is important as you have received the promise.

Are you saying you need to have the gift of tongues as evidence that you have the HS?


You either have the Holy Spirit or you don't, and you know when you have the Holy Spirit because you know the minute you recieved the Spirit.

So you believe that receiving the Spirit is a secondary experience for some Christians after their conversion?

SoldierOfChrist
May 1st 2008, 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
I am going to agree that not all believers have the Holy Spirit.


So how do you reconcile that with this verse?

...Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Rom 8:9b NKJV

Easy:

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
Sorry guys I have been to many a church and I can say that some have no Holy Spirit in any of the members and they still believe.



It's possible to assent to the truth without being a believer - Satan's theology is very sound!

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.



First of all, please remember that the HS is the Spirit of GOD, so it borders on blasphemy to refer to Him as "it".

I agree I'm not that good of a writer and if you want to attack me for not speaking quite correctly even though I did speak correctly in every other sentence like the one below so be it... just you know I usually refer to HIM as the Father but that thought that may confuse some in this context.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
You either have the Holy Spirit or you don't, and you know when you have the Holy Spirit because you know the minute you recieved the Spirit. [/quote]



Secondly, what sign inwardly or outwardly would they need to have, in your opinion?

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
It is the inward manifestation that is important as you have received the promise.



Are you saying you need to have the gift of tongues as evidence that you have the HS?

Are you looking to twist my words here? Where did I say anyone needed any gift except the gift of the Holy Spirit? You are not reading what I said correctly at all because I said the complete opposite!

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
You either have the Holy Spirit or you don't, and you know when you have the Holy Spirit because you know the minute you recieved the Spirit.



So you believe that receiving the Spirit is a secondary experience for some Christians after their conversion?Well here we go again... that is not waht I said. We were talking about believing and not having the Spirit, NOT conversion! There is a secondary experience for some Christians after believing! Conversion is that!

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Mark 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

Mark 4:14 The sower soweth the word.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

So tell me what is the difference between John's baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Do you get it NOW?

9Marksfan don't twist what I say but feel free to attack whatever I say... just not me please. If I hit a nerve maybe I'm sorry and maybe not! If I should provoke any believer to seek out the Spirit of the Lord it is good thing. I will tell you I am against those that teach the UNKNOWN GOD theory.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Michael

9Marksfan
May 1st 2008, 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
I am going to agree that not all believers have the Holy Spirit.



...Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Rom 8:9b NKJV

Easy:

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

"His own" means the Jews - we all know that most didn't believe.


Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Again, Jews who didn't believe in Christ - NOT believers!


John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Again, not believers.


John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Ditto.


John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

Huh? Relevance?


John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

He's addressing unbelievers - NONE of your verses helps your argument in ANY way at all!


Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
Sorry guys I have been to many a church and I can say that some have no Holy Spirit in any of the members and they still believe.



James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The point I was getting at with Satan having good theology! You can't say that demons are "believers" in the way that Christians are "believers" but don't have the HS! EVERYONE who truly believes has been born of God - and you will see the fruit in their lives.


I agree I'm not that good of a writer and if you want to attack me for not speaking quite correctly even though I did speak correctly in every other sentence like the one below so be it... just you know I usually refer to HIM as the Father but that thought that may confuse some in this context.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
You either have the Holy Spirit or you don't, and you know when you have the Holy Spirit because you know the minute you recieved the Spirit.

Fair point - "Him" should be used of Father, Son AND Spirit, as each Person is as much God as the Other!


Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Amen!


Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
It is the inward manifestation that is important as you have received the promise.

Are you looking to twist my words here? Where did I say anyone needed any gift except the gift of the Holy Spirit? You are not reading what I said correctly at all because I said the complete opposite!

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

You still haven't explained what you mean by the inward manifestation - the conviction that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God? Isn't that manifested by our faith and joy in Him?


Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
You either have the Holy Spirit or you don't, and you know when you have the Holy Spirit because you know the minute you recieved the Spirit.

Well here we go again... that is not waht I said. We were talking about believing and not having the Spirit, NOT conversion! There is a secondary experience for some Christians after believing! Conversion is that!

So you think a person can be a believing Christian and yet not be converted?!?! Man - THAT'S confusing! If waht you are saying is that a person can "believe" in an intellectual way (like Satan, accepting the facts of the gospel) but not be saved/converted, I agree - but such a person is NOT a Christian and does NOT have the Spirit of God indwelling them! ALL Christians are saved/converted/have believed with their heart (ie trusted Christ) and are indwelt by the HS - PERIOD!!!!!!!!


Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Mark 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

Mark 4:14 The sower soweth the word.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Agree with all these verses but I don't see what you're getting at :confused


So tell me what is the difference between John's baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Hmm - no one has John's baptism now - so what's your point?


Do you get it NOW?

No, because I'm still utterly in the dark about your theology!


9Marksfan don't twist what I say but feel free to attack whatever I say... just not me please.

I'm sorry if you feel I'm twisting what you say or attacking you personally - I don't intend either - but I think you are greatly confused about what is called the ordo salutis ie the order of events in the experience of someone who is saved.


If I hit a nerve maybe I'm sorry and maybe not! If I should provoke any believer to seek out the Spirit of the Lord it is good thing. I will tell you I am against those that teach the UNKNOWN GOD theory.

And what's that when it's at home?


John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

EXCELLENT verses - but they apply to ALL true believers! :pp


Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Michael

Jesus is writing to a church - the door is the door of the church building/house where they met - NOT the door of our hearts - GOD is the One who ALONE opens that (Acts 16:14, Ezek 36:26).

SoldierOfChrist
May 1st 2008, 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
Sorry guys I have been to many a church and I can say that some have no Holy Spirit in any of the members and they still believe.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The point I was getting at with Satan having good theology! You can't say that demons are "believers" in the way that Christians are "believers" but don't have the HS! EVERYONE who truly believes has been born of God - and you will see the fruit in their lives.).

The scripture reads "the devils also believe" you can twist and turn it. I think it proves my point and as to the other scripture only being written to the unbelievers, I disagree. Sorry I don't have time to comment on some of the rest right now but will later when I get some time.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.



Jesus is writing to a church - the door is the door of the church building/house where they met - NOT the door of our hearts - GOD is the One who ALONE opens that (Acts 16:14, Ezek 36:26).

You are wrong! The door is the Spiritual door not the door of the church. He is addressing the men of church... "if any man hear my voice"... the spiritual man knows that what sup with him means.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Let me put it this way: A person may say I read the Bible and and believe and then calls themselves a witness. A witness to what?

I'm here to sharpen my knowledge and understanding and I must tell what I know and believe and you can chalenge it, and if I'm wrong I will learn something and so will others

More later.

Michael

divaD
May 1st 2008, 07:33 PM
The greatest gift is the Holy Spirit. I am going to agree that not all believers have the Holy Spirit. Sorry guys I have been to
many a church and I can say that some have no Holy Spirit in any of the members and they still believe. Now some of them
think they have it but they have no sign inwardly or outwardly.


Perhaps you need to define what a believer is. Take devils for instance, they believe in Jesus Christ, yet we know none of them have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. My point...is believing in Jesus Christ, enough to save you? Is simply by itself, believing in Christ, enough for the Holy Spirit to indwell within? If someone
does not have the Holy Spirit indwelling, then they can't be saved, no matter what they believe. Would that be correct? If so, then how can just believing in Christ save anyone? To get back to the point I'm trying to make, you stated "Sorry guys I have been to
many a church and I can say that some have no Holy Spirit in any of the members and they still believe."

So, how can it be both ways? A believer can believe in Christ and has the Holy Spirit indwelling, A believer can believe in Christ and not have the Holy Spirit indwelling?

Please don't misunderstand my post. I basically agree with your post. I'm just trying to help you see what you're implying here, at least from the perspective I'm seeing it from.

LivingSacrafice
May 1st 2008, 07:43 PM
LivingSacrafice, you have made some pretty strong statements here, but I cannot totally agree with all that you say. For one thing you said this,

"Im not trying to prove you wrong,because I know theres things you say that are true,but when you recieve the holy spirit thats a gift,in my bible which is the holy bible the true word of God it says when the first christians were filled with the holy ghost they began to speak in tongues,so that shows that thats a sign of having the Holy Ghost.And also if a saved person didnt have any holy ghost in them how could they stay saved,theres no real saved person that could stay saved with out some of the holy ghost,because the holy ghost is there to correct us,now when recieve the holy ghost in full measure you begin to speak in tongues thats a sign of having the holy ghost."

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that when we "recieve the holy ghost in full measure you begin to speak in tongues thats a sign of having the holy ghost."

I offer there are other signs that a person is filled with the Holy Ghost! For example, consider this--
Acts 4:31
31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

I know you probably come here from a denomination that teaches tongues are THE sign you are filled with the Holy Ghost. Yet, I offer the above scripture is ANOTHER SIGN.

Also, Jesus said this--
John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Holy Ghost teaches us!

John 15:26
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost (according to John 14:26!) is the Spirit of truth!

It is not the gift of tongues that teaches us, or causes us to testify of Him, or causes us to speak the word of God with boldness...but the Holy Ghost.


1 Corinthians 12:4-11
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. (There are different kinds of gifts! Not just ONE.)

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. (It is the SAME God that works in all!)

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. (These different MANIFESTATIONS are listed in the scriptures below.)

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Perhaps you have the gift of tongues, another has the gift of healing, another the gift of discerning of spirits....

So, lets be careful saying things like, "when you recieve the holy ghost in full measure you begin to speak in tongues" unless you can back it up with scripture.

Well speaking in tongues is the sign of being filled with the holy ghost,but when you recieve it in full measure and you have not spot,wrinkle or any such thing,then you are the bride of christ.

godsgirl
May 1st 2008, 10:18 PM
We need to concern ourselves with how much of us the Holy Spirit has!

Baptism is a total immersion! That's what I want.

divaD
May 1st 2008, 10:46 PM
We need to concern ourselves with how much of us the Holy Spirit has!

Baptism is a total immersion! That's what I want.


godsgirl, that is an excellent point! I may not agree with your pov in regards to the gifts of the Spirit operating today, but what you stated doesn't have to be only in relation to the gifts of the Spirit operating today, in order for it to be an excellent point. Personally, I feel that the fruits of the Spirit are what we are to be filled with. So the more of us that the Holy Spiit has, the more evident the fruits of the Spirit will be to others.

SoldierOfChrist
May 2nd 2008, 05:22 AM
Perhaps you need to define what a believer is. Take devils for instance, they believe in Jesus Christ, yet we know none of them have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. My point...is believing in Jesus Christ, enough to save you? Is simply by itself, believing in Christ, enough for the Holy Spirit to indwell within? The JW's beleive in Christ, do they have the Father in them? I honestly don't think so!



If someone does not have the Holy Spirit indwelling, then they can't be saved, no matter what they believe. Would that be correct? If so, then how can just believing in Christ save anyone? Well that is the question isn't it? I can only speak from my own experience. When I first believed did I have the Holy Spirit? If I did I didn't know it. When I recieved the Holy Spirit I knew the minute I did and can still recall the moment. I have something many belivers do not have as the Father revealed himself unto me.

How does the believer know that the Spirit is with them if they have no sign... and I'm not talking about tongues! How can the Holy Spirit teach us anything if you have no contact with him?



To get back to the point I'm trying to make, you stated:
"Sorry guys I have been to many a church and I can say that some have no Holy Spirit in any of the members and they still believe."

So, how can it be both ways? A believer can believe in Christ and has the Holy Spirit indwelling, A believer can believe in Christ and not have the Holy Spirit indwelling?

I think you are missing what I;m saying, this would be closer: A believer can believe in Christ and can have the Holy Spirit indwelling, A believer can believe in Christ and not have the Holy Spirit indwelling



Please don't misunderstand my post. I basically agree with your post. I'm just trying to help you see what you're implying here, at least from the perspective I'm seeing it from.I'm even going to go futher and say I know of people that have recieved the Spirit and have not kept him.

Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

And of course the parable of the sower also supports this. I know what I know and I know what have read but I have an open mind. Jesus said you must be born from above and to me that is more than just believing. I have questions but only from the wide spread belief that it is not necesary and we are saved by faith. Maybe that is correct? But the way I see it is the only way to know the Holy Spirit NOW is to have him dwell within you and you need to be born from above and I don't mean getting dunked in water and turning over a new leaf. To be born of the Spirit.

It is written God is not a God of the dead but of the living!

Michael

SoldierOfChrist
May 2nd 2008, 05:33 AM
Well speaking in tongues is the sign of being filled with the holy ghost,but when you recieve it in full measure and you have not spot,wrinkle or any such thing,then you are the bride of christ.I must have missed the scriptures that support this, maybe you could find them for us. When I see this missing I can only asume that someone told you this.

You are born of Spirit and then you are like a plant that needs watering from above to grow. If you get lots of light and don't grow among the weed etc. you become a strong tree. If not when the sun comes up you wither away.

Mark 4:32 But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

Michael

SoldierOfChrist
May 2nd 2008, 05:58 AM
"His own" means the Jews - we all know that most didn't believe.
Again, Jews who didn't believe in Christ - NOT believers!


Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



You still haven't explained what you mean by the inward manifestation - the conviction that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God? Isn't that manifested by our faith and joy in Him?


I don't know why you can't see it here. I guess it boils down to I believe I have the holy spirit in me or I KNOW I have the Holy Spirit in me. How because he revealed himself to me.

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.



So you think a person can be a believing Christian and yet not be converted?!?! Man - THAT'S confusing! If waht you are saying is that a person can "believe" in an intellectual way (like Satan, accepting the facts of the gospel) but not be saved/converted, I agree - but such a person is NOT a Christian and does NOT have the Spirit of God indwelling them! ALL Christians are saved/converted/have believed with their heart (ie trusted Christ) and are indwelt by the HS - PERIOD!!!!!!!!





Hmm - no one has John's baptism now - so what's your point?

They why are so many churches still practicing it?

Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.



I think you are greatly confused about what is called the ordo salutis ie the order of events in the experience of someone who is saved.

I don't think so... is this not the order... believe and baptized so first you believe and then you are baptized and I don't mean John's baptism.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.



John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:



EXCELLENT verses - but they apply to ALL true believers! :pp I bolded it again "hear my voice" now the carnal man man reads this one way and the Spiritual man another.

Michael

Diggindeeper
May 2nd 2008, 06:08 AM
I say there is definitely a denominational slant to this thread. Its obvious to me. But, we cannot lay aside scriptures like this, regardless of our denominational leanings--

John 14:16
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Admittedly, some denominations adhere to the teaching that there is something in addition to being born again, and that "something in addition" is the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

This does not mean that we don't have the Holy Ghost within us unless we have the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. That simply is not true. To me, it amounts to saying, "If you don't have the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, you don't have the Holy Ghost living in you."

You see, once we are born again, we become a new man, or woman. Its because the Holy Spirit now lives and abides in us and will abide in us FOREVER. We were dead, but now alive, forevermore!

We could not even understand what scriptures are saying withoout Him living within us, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Its the Holy Ghost within that TEACHES us spiritual things! And He makes his abode in us when we are born again. We don't get "more" of the Holy Ghost by being Baptised in the Holy Ghost. That is a separate outpouring, not "more" within.

SoldierOfChrist
May 2nd 2008, 06:39 AM
Diggindeeper I agree for the most part although there are a couple of things.



Admittedly, some denominations adhere to the teaching that there is something in addition to being born again, and that "something in addition" is the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Interesting as I see the Baptism of the Holy Ghost the same as being born again(born from above). To me saying you are a born again really means nothing and certainly doesn't mean you now have the Spirit in you. I can say anything it just doesn't make it so.

I guess I should explain what I think the born of Spirit is to me. To me it is the outpouring of the Spirit, if it happens after the laying on of hands or by prayer while one is alone it is the first time you experience the presence of the Holy Spirit. It is the seed that is planted within you that can grow or wither.

Either way:
John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

So maybe you know better what I'm trying to say... the title of this thread is not mine!!!

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

If the Lord hasn't manifested or revealed himself to you keep seeking him. If he has not manifested or revealed himself to you how can he teach you?

Michael

LivingSacrafice
May 2nd 2008, 07:21 AM
Let me clear something up,When your saved that is an act of the holy spirit,so when your saved you recieve some of the holy spirit,but being filled is
the baptism of the holy spirit,for that is what John said,I have come to baptise thee with water but someone greater comes to baptise thee with the holy spirit,and I most likely miss quoted that scipture but its there and Im sure some of you have read it.And then again,when the first saints were filled with the holy ghost didnt it say in the bible that they began to speak in tongues,so
when they were filled the holy spirit gave them utterance to speak in tongues.
Now I might not be able to tell you the exact scipture or give you the address for it but most of us have read that and know that it is there.So once again when you're saved its an act of the holy spirit touching you for you to have noticed God.And some might say God touched me well yes thats true,Theres one God eternally existing in three offices: Namely the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost.

GOD HEAD
John 1:1 In the beggining was the word,and the word was with God,and the word was God.

John 5:7 For those three that bear record in heaven,the Father,the Word,and the Holy Ghost.And these three are one.

Colossians 1:16
Colossians 2:9 For in him dewlleth all the fullness of the Godhead Bodily.

BAPTISM
A.In the baptism of the Holy Ghost subsequent to a clean heart:

Acts 1:8 But ye shall recieve power,after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in jerusalem,and in all judea,and in Samaria,and the utter-most part of the earth.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them,Repent,and be baptize everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,and ye shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things and also the Holy Ghost,whom God hath given to them that obey Him.

-So when you are filled with the Holy Ghost you are a witness to of the things in the bible,your an actual witness not someone who jsut believes,which is fine and well but that shows that you are able to agree from Genesis to Revalations with every scripture.

Baptism of the Holy Ghost
A.In speaking in other tongues as the spirit gives utterance as one of the evidences of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Mark 16:16 he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved,but he that believeth not shall be damed17.And these signs shall follow them that believe.In the name shall they cast out devils;they shall speak with new tongues.18. They shall take up serpants;and if they drink any deadly thing,it shall not hurt them;they shall lay hands on the sick,and they shall recover.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,and began to speak with other tongues,as the spirit gave the utterance.

Act 10:46 For they heard them spek with other tongues,and magnify God.Then answered Peter

Acts 19:6 And then paul laid hands upon them,the Holy Ghost came upon them;and they spake with tongues,and prophesied.
-Thats another sign of the holy ghost ''and they prophesied.



And yes I knew most of this but didnt know the sciptures for it and couldnt explain most of it,but all this credit goes to God because I found something that showed these things and the scriptures for them.So no this does not come from me but from the word of God.

Diggindeeper
May 2nd 2008, 07:57 AM
LivingSacrafice, I am proud that you are a 16 year old who is searching the scriptures. Most people your age don't do that. You just keep on searching, and reading, and learning. Don't ever stop studying the Word of God.

We may disagree on things, but everyone here are Christians, and the main thing is that we can talk and discuss, and we see things differently. But that is okay. We discuss because that, too, is how we keep on learning. But we still love one another.

I am glad you are being diligent to search the scriptures. Just keep in mind that we do see things differently and that is one reason there are different churches and denominations.

People are on this board from all kinds of church backgrounds, but we are still brothers and sisters in the Lord.

(Be sure to check out the Young Adults forum, LivingSacrafice. Its especilly for the young people. I didn't know if you had seen that forum or not, and thought I'd tell you and invite you there some too.)

But I just wanted you to know that I am glad to see a young person studying the scriptures. And, I am proud of you for digging into the Word!

LivingSacrafice
May 2nd 2008, 08:06 AM
LivingSacrafice, I am proud that you are a 16 year old who is searching the scriptures. Most people your age don't do that. You just keep on searching, and reading, and learning. Don't ever stop studying the Word of God.

We may disagree on things, but everyone here are Christians, and the main thing is that we can talk and discuss, and we see things differently. But that is okay. We discuss because that, too, is how we keep on learning. But we still love one another.

I am glad you are being diligent to search the scriptures. Just keep in mind that we do see things differently and that is one reason there are different churches and denominations.

People are on this board from all kinds of church backgrounds, but we are still brothers and sisters in the Lord.

(Be sure to check out the Young Adults forum, LivingSacrafice. Its especilly for the young people. I didn't know if you had seen that forum or not, and thought I'd tell you and invite you there some too.)

But I just wanted you to know that I am glad to see a young person studying the scriptures. And, I am proud of you for digging into the Word!

Well thank you very very much,and I give all the Glory to God for my life that is with him.

Let me just say that God doesnt like denomination,you see if everyone is disagreeing then somewhere the truth is mixed up,this is the word,one of the apostles clearly talks about this in the new testaments,maybe in acts or somethings,maybe paul.I dont say this o bash anyone or you,but its not a problems that you dotn agree with me,but I quoted sciptures to back up what I claimed out of the word of God,whats more to agree with,we cant flip the bible.You might not agree with me but if we cant agree with God then we wouldnt be the body of chirst,so when you said theres so many denominations and people disagree then where is the truth in this,and if theres so many lies out there then that would mean not all are the body of christ because they would be going by man made doctrine,especially when people make a man made church they choose to seperate from the body because God is against it,and he built one church[one body].

We as human beings can disagree but if we disagree on the word and we are both reading from the same bible,then what truth is there in us,like I said I quoted sciptures,or atleast found some scriptures and then put them on here,if someone cant agree with that then they arent filled with the holy ghost,and also they are with some other doctrine,I corrected my mistakes by not giving scriptures which I felt I needed to do in the beggining,it was on my heart when I first wrote that post as I got deeper into it,but I didnt obey.

divaD
May 2nd 2008, 01:51 PM
The JW's beleive in Christ, do they have the Father in them? I honestly don't think so!

Well that is the question isn't it? I can only speak from my own experience. When I first believed did I have the Holy Spirit? If I did I didn't know it. When I recieved the Holy Spirit I knew the minute I did and can still recall the moment. I have something many belivers do not have as the Father revealed himself unto me.

How does the believer know that the Spirit is with them if they have no sign... and I'm not talking about tongues! How can the Holy Spirit teach us anything if you have no contact with him?



I think you are missing what I;m saying, this would be closer: A believer can believe in Christ and can have the Holy Spirit indwelling, A believer can believe in Christ and not have the Holy Spirit indwelling



Michael


Michael, this is what I believe. In order for Christ to be revealed to anyone, He must be revealed thru the Holy Spirit.
It is the Holy Spirit that reveals Christ to us. Once we have that revelation of Christ, we get revelation thru Christ in the Word, of the Father, in which the Holy Spirit guides us into this truth. Christ reveals the Father to us. Christ came to do not His will, but the will of the Father, thus revealing the Father to us. No one can have Christ and the Father, and not have the Holy Spirit. No one can have the Holy Spirit and Christ, and not have the Father, etc. My point is, no one can be saved if this link is broken.
This is why JWs are not saved. They believe that they can get to the Father without the Son. There is only one way to the Father, and that is thru the Son. No one can have the Son, unless the Holy Spirit has revealed Him unto them. And no one can have access to the Father but thru the Son. Do you see how this link works?

My point is this, it is impossible for a true believer, one that the saving power of Christ, and the Father, has been revealed
unto them, and not have the Holy Spirit, because it is the Holy Spirit where we get this revelation from.

IamBill
May 2nd 2008, 03:58 PM
You either have the Holy Spirit or you don't, and you know when you have the Holy Spirit because you know the minute you recieved the Spirit. Right Bill? Many that are tought of God are separate from the others and the teaching they provide, instead they are lead by the Spirit and not man.

I think I already said that?

Michael

FACT ! :)

I understand everything you are posting. ;)

Revinius
May 2nd 2008, 04:28 PM
When you are truly filled with the holy spirit theres and utterance that comes,and you begin to speak in tongues.So thats probally the first sign of truly being filled.

That is heresy my friend. Tongues does not equate to being completely filled by the spirit, its just a gift like any other.

To infer that because one does not speak in tongues one is less spirit filled is plain wrong. To tell the truth the wisest people i know would rather speak 5 intelligible words than a thousand in tongues.

9Marksfan
May 2nd 2008, 04:38 PM
The scripture reads "the devils also believe" you can twist and turn it. I think it proves my point

Sorry - only just realised my posts were included in this new thread! I think we probably are agreed here - I didn't express myself too well - I guess that those who only have a demonic intellectual "faith" are indeed no better than demons - what I meant to say was that you cannot say that those who have truly trusted Christ BUT DON'T SPEAK IN TONGUES are somehow not saved and haven't received the baptism of the Holy Spirit!


and as to the other scripture only being written to the unbelievers, I disagree.

Why? They clearly were NOT believers, because they rejected Christ!


Sorry I don't have time to comment on some of the rest right now but will later when I get some time.

OK.


Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

You are wrong!

I beg to differ - have you checked out any decent commentaries on the verses? I think you'll find that most of them adhere to the view I've propunded - if it was the door of the HEART, then surely Jesus would have said "doorS"! As it is, the Laodiceans felt they could do without Christ - He was actually outside their meeting place! But Christ said to any CHRISTIANS there who heard His knocking, that He would have fellowship with THEM!


The door is the Spiritual door not the door of the church.

YOU are the one who is wrong!


He is addressing the men of church... "if any man hear my voice"... the spiritual man knows that what sup with him means.

So all the women are just barred from fellowship with Christ?


John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Fair enough - we're agreed this is feding on Christ by faith.


Let me put it this way: A person may say I read the Bible and and believe and then calls themselves a witness. A witness to what?

Well it depends whether they've had an encounter in the woerd with the risen Christ and have trusted Him, doesn't it? THEN they're witnesses!


I'm here to sharpen my knowledge and understanding and I must tell what I know and believe and you can chalenge it, and if I'm wrong I will learn something and so will others

More later.

Michael

OK - glad to hear it - will reply to your other post soon.

Nigel

9Marksfan
May 2nd 2008, 04:47 PM
The JW's beleive in Christ, do they have the Father in them? I honestly don't think so!

They don't believe in the Christ of the Bible - they don't believe he was the incarnate Son of God.


Well that is the question isn't it? I can only speak from my own experience. When I first believed did I have the Holy Spirit? If I did I didn't know it.

I don't know - it depends if you had Spirit-enabled faith or not!


When I recieved the Holy Spirit I knew the minute I did and can still recall the moment. I have something many belivers do not have as the Father revealed himself unto me.

Well I think you're deluded - God has no favourites! No "first class Christians" and "second class Christians", as you would like to believe.....


How does the believer know that the Spirit is with them if they have no sign... and I'm not talking about tongues! How can the Holy Spirit teach us anything if you have no contact with him?

What sign DO you mean?


I think you are missing what I;m saying, this would be closer: A believer can believe in Christ and can have the Holy Spirit indwelling, A believer can believe in Christ and not have the Holy Spirit indwelling

Sorry - that's completely unbiblical - Rom 8:9b - All true believers belong to Christ - ALL true believers have the Spirit!


I'm even going to go futher and say I know of people that have recieved the Spirit and have not kept him.

This just gets woyce and woyce! Doh!


Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

And of course the parable of the sower also supports this. I know what I know and I know what have read but I have an open mind.

Doesn't look like it from where I'm standing!


Jesus said you must be born from above and to me that is more than just believing.

Correct - it's having a new heart from God! It's having His Spirit indwell you!


I have questions but only from the wide spread belief that it is not necesary and we are saved by faith. Maybe that is correct? But the way I see it is the only way to know the Holy Spirit NOW is to have him dwell within you and you need to be born from above and I don't mean getting dunked in water and turning over a new leaf. To be born of the Spirit.

It is written God is not a God of the dead but of the living!

Michael

Well I THINK we're agreed there -but how do you define being born from above? What do you think happens?

Diggindeeper
May 2nd 2008, 04:52 PM
That is heresy my friend. Tongues does not equate to being completely filled by the spirit, its just a gift like any other.

To infer that because one does not speak in tongues one is less spirit filled is plain wrong. To tell the truth the wisest people i know would rather speak 5 intelligible words than a thousand in tongues.

And that, Revinius, is the scriptural way to be! Even Paul said this--

1 Corinthians 14
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

"Tongues" is a GIFT of the spirit. Like healing, and all the other gifts. It is not the proof that we are not right with CHRIST Jesus, as some have implied. We best be careful that we are not speaking into the air, as Paul said in verse 9 above.

9Marksfan
May 2nd 2008, 04:55 PM
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Exactly - they were LOST = NOT believers!


I don't know why you can't see it here. I guess it boils down to I believe I have the holy spirit in me or I KNOW I have the Holy Spirit in me. How because he revealed himself to me.

You're going to have to explain yourself a bit more fully!


Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

But it's the person of Christ that was revelaed to Peter! The Father revealed that great truth to him!


They why are so many churches still practicing it?

I don't know of any that practise a baptism of repentance ONLY - tyey practise Christian baptism upon repentance of sin and faith in Christ - in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost - is there something wrong with this?


Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

And your point is?


I don't think so... is this not the order... believe and baptized so first you believe and then you are baptized and I don't mean John's baptism.

What - you mean water baptism? That's a new one!


Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So we find that baptism is very important - buit faith is THE most important thing!


John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

I bolded it again "hear my voice" now the carnal man man reads this one way and the Spiritual man another.

Michael

If you're talking about an inward, spiritual perception of Christ's voice, I agree - this is the mark of the true child of God - the "sheep" for whom He laid down His life and who knows Christ and follows Him! :pp

9Marksfan
May 2nd 2008, 06:14 PM
Let me clear something up,When your saved that is an act of the holy spirit,

Amen!


so when your saved you recieve some of the holy spirit,

Er - how much? 10%? 30%? Where do you find this in Scripture? Do you realise that the HS is NOT an invisible spiritual force/liquid - but the Third Person of the Godhead! He can't be divided up!


but being filled is the baptism of the holy spirit,

No - there is ONE baptism of the HS - but SEVERAL fillings - that's clear from Acts - and also from Eph 5:18, where the tense makes it read "Keep on being filled".


for that is what John said,I have come to baptise thee with water but someone greater comes to baptise thee with the holy spirit,and I most likely miss quoted that scipture but its there and Im sure some of you have read it.

You've quoted it pretty well, but there's only ONE baptism of the HS - it's an INITIAL experience of ALL Christians AT conversion! 1 Cor 12:13


And then again,when the first saints were filled with the holy ghost didnt it say in the bible that they began to speak in tongues,so
when they were filled the holy spirit gave them utterance to speak in tongues.

Yes - and they also had tongues of fire on their heads - ever seen that happen?


Now I might not be able to tell you the exact scipture or give you the address for it but most of us have read that and know that it is there.So once again when you're saved its an act of the holy spirit touching you for you to have noticed God.

Amen!


And some might say God touched me well yes thats true,Theres one God eternally existing in three offices: Namely the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost.

GOD HEAD
John 1:1 In the beggining was the word,and the word was with God,and the word was God.

John 5:7 For those three that bear record in heaven,the Father,the Word,and the Holy Ghost.And these three are one.

Colossians 1:16
Colossians 2:9 For in him dewlleth all the fullness of the Godhead Bodily.

Amen - great verses!


BAPTISM
A.In the baptism of the Holy Ghost subsequent to a clean heart:

Er, it doesn't say anything about a clean heart first - the Father is the One that gives us the new heart and puts His Spirit in us (Ezek 36:26, 27)


Acts 1:8 But ye shall recieve power,after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in jerusalem,and in all judea,and in Samaria,and the utter-most part of the earth.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them,Repent,and be baptize everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,and ye shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things and also the Holy Ghost,whom God hath given to them that obey Him.

-So when you are filled with the Holy Ghost you are a witness to of the things in the bible,your an actual witness not someone who jsut believes,which is fine and well but that shows that you are able to agree from Genesis to Revalations with every scripture.

OK with you so far....


Baptism of the Holy Ghost
A.In speaking in other tongues as the spirit gives utterance as one of the evidences of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Mark 16:16 he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved,but he that believeth not shall be damed17.And these signs shall follow them that believe.In the name shall they cast out devils;they shall speak with new tongues.18. They shall take up serpants;and if they drink any deadly thing,it shall not hurt them;they shall lay hands on the sick,and they shall recover.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,and began to speak with other tongues,as the spirit gave the utterance.

Act 10:46 For they heard them spek with other tongues,and magnify God.Then answered Peter

Acts 19:6 And then paul laid hands upon them,the Holy Ghost came upon them;and they spake with tongues,and prophesied.

What about lifting snakes and drinking poison? Ever seen that done successfully? Paul says "Do ALL spewak in tongues?" It's clearly NOT a gift for all and NOT a sign of having been baptised in the HS.


-Thats another sign of the holy ghost ''and they prophesied.

Depends on what you mean by that today.....


And yes I knew most of this but didnt know the sciptures for it and couldnt explain most of it,but all this credit goes to God because I found something that showed these things and the scriptures for them.So no this does not come from me but from the word of God.

I applaud your willingness to learn but you need to look at some more Scriptures to gain a fuller understanding - remember that the disciples were in a unique situation - living during the events of Christ's life, death, resurrection, ascension and sending of the Spirit - we can't draw too many parallels because we live in the aftermath of these glorious things! There's completeness to the true believr's experience at conversion now that there wasn't in the early church.....

LivingSacrafice
May 2nd 2008, 08:27 PM
Amen!



Er - how much? 10%? 30%? Where do you find this in Scripture? Do you realise that the HS is NOT an invisible spiritual force/liquid - but the Third Person of the Godhead! He can't be divided up!



No - there is ONE baptism of the HS - but SEVERAL fillings - that's clear from Acts - and also from Eph 5:18, where the tense makes it read "Keep on being filled".



You've quoted it pretty well, but there's only ONE baptism of the HS - it's an INITIAL experience of ALL Christians AT conversion! 1 Cor 12:13



Yes - and they also had tongues of fire on their heads - ever seen that happen?



Amen!



Amen - great verses!



Er, it doesn't say anything about a clean heart first - the Father is the One that gives us the new heart and puts His Spirit in us (Ezek 36:26, 27)



OK with you so far....



What about lifting snakes and drinking poison? Ever seen that done successfully? Paul says "Do ALL spewak in tongues?" It's clearly NOT a gift for all and NOT a sign of having been baptised in the HS.



Depends on what you mean by that today.....



I applaud your willingness to learn but you need to look at some more Scriptures to gain a fuller understanding - remember that the disciples were in a unique situation - living during the events of Christ's life, death, resurrection, ascension and sending of the Spirit - we can't draw too many parallels because we live in the aftermath of these glorious things! There's completeness to the true believr's experience at conversion now that there wasn't in the early church.....

To tell you the truth your taking short cuts around the truth,basically your saying that the scriptures I posted are not right?Are you trying to go around the bible or are you trying to go by it,I said scriptures and you twist it and add on things,which some of those may be true but then again you cant cross out scripture but you can cross out my own 2 cents that I added.

And when you said theres only one baptism of the holy spirit,thats what I was saying,I said that John baptised with water,but Jesus came to baptize in the holy Ghost.Did it not say that,thats what the bible says doesnt it,doesnt John baptise with water and not the holy Ghost.

You said it says nothing about a clean heart first,but when you are filled doesnt your heart become clean,the holy spirit is of the God Head,so it is God,its all in one,so to tell you the truth that would be dividing God up if you were to say that when your filled you dont recieve a clean heart,as of when your filled the holy spirit is there to comfort you and help you resist sin.

And you said some things about have I seen snakes being lifted and drinking poison,but are you saying that the word of God is wrong,are you saying that when it says that in the bible that that is wrong,the holy spirit has witnessed to all of the bible as of it wrote the bible,thats how these men knew what to write,so when your filled you have also witnessed all of this so that is why your able to agree with Genesis through Revelations.

By the way when God gives you the Holy Ghost,that is a gift,not everyone speaks in tongues because not everyone is filled with the holy ghost,as I said earlier when your saved its an act of the holy spirit moving in you,so then wouldnt that mean that it would be in you but you you wouldnt be filled,and a sign of that would be speaking in tongues,it said somewhere in the bible in the new testament that when those first christians were filled they all spoke in tongues not one or two or 3,but all of them.

Yes the diciples were in the actual events of their life and then when jesus went into heaven they went out into the world and told the world how to live,and performed miricles and things of that nature,Jesus healed the blind,he healed those who couldnt walk,he casted out demons,ok and that stuff is still happening today,as of when your filled as the bible says and I gave a scripture to that,it says that when your filled you will have the power to do the same things.And when your saved,when your baptised you immerse,and that represents us dieing with christ,that is why we are born again if you do it right[In the name of the Father,son and Holy ghost,and their names are Lord Jesus Christ].So for one their are still apostles in this world even though they werent the 12,there are chief apostles,few but there are some.There are prophets,elders,deacons,and bishops.

We all have a calling,for example prophets/prophetess,people who have this calling were this before they were born,because in order to be a prophet/prophetess God had to have made you that,no man can make you that.So in that case since there still is people with callings like Apostles and Prophet/prophetess then wouldnt that mean that God is still moving like back in Jesus time line.

It says that God is the same today,tomorrow,and forever more,so the words in the Holy Bible are Gods actualy words not mans word,so if God is the same today,tomorrow,and for ever more,wouldn't that mean that when the bible says something its the truth,when I said those scriptures they were also here for today,keep in mind this is the new testament,and when the apostles went around speading it to the world they were speaking to us,For instance i believe if Im not wrong that Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles,he was assigned to us,so when he said things,wouldnt that mean that it was for us in 2008 and so on.If thats not true then wouldnt that mean God would have to write a new bible for us and that God isnt the same today,tomorrow,and for ever more,or is it true that when the new testament was established it referred to us in this time aswell,for if that wasnt true then we would be in the old testament and we wouldnt be able to be saved,as of when Jesus died that was what free us.

So all Im saying is we cant change the word of God and flip over to another scipture and say well since I read this scripture and it says this,then I dont have to follow this one,we would want to get right with God if we were saying things like that.

awestruckchild
May 2nd 2008, 08:49 PM
This thread has intrigued me. I can understand how the original poster got into his thought that we do not receive "all" of the Holy Spirit at once. I once had some thoughts that were similar. And a bit of arrogance too, because everyone I knew could not sense the Holy Spirit as I did.

It is only very recently that I discovered that I was more carnal than a lot of them and that the human way I was sensing Him was keeping me in my pride and humaness which are the exact parts that keep us stuck and going no further towards a perfect union! I had received all of Him, I am sure, but I was rejoicing in something that was quenching Him from going further with me - that was actually keeping me from knowing Him better!

As far as the talk of speaking in "tongues", I really don't get from the book of Acts the same conclusion that everyone else does with this. I got that they were speaking in different human languages so that ppl who were listening all heard them in their own dialect. I don't know, how from this, the belief that there are these spiritual languages we speak has come about. It is heartbreaking to me that someone who has received the Holy Spirit might not come to know His voice all because someone has told them that unless they speak in some strange language, they cannot know Him. It just makes me so sad.

LivingSacrafice
May 2nd 2008, 09:05 PM
This thread has intrigued me. I can understand how the original poster got into his thought that we do not receive "all" of the Holy Spirit at once. I once had some thoughts that were similar. And a bit of arrogance too, because everyone I knew could not sense the Holy Spirit as I did.

It is only very recently that I discovered that I was more carnal than a lot of them and that the human way I was sensing Him was keeping me in my pride and humaness which are the exact parts that keep us stuck and going no further towards a perfect union! I had received all of Him, I am sure, but I was rejoicing in something that was quenching Him from going further with me - that was actually keeping me from knowing Him better!

As far as the talk of speaking in "tongues", I really don't get from the book of Acts the same conclusion that everyone else does with this. I got that they were speaking in different human languages so that ppl who were listening all heard them in their own dialect. I don't know, how from this, the belief that there are these spiritual languages we speak has come about. It is heartbreaking to me that someone who has received the Holy Spirit might not come to know His voice all because someone has told them that unless they speak in some strange language, they cannot know Him. It just makes me so sad.

I posted that,please do not put words into my mouth,I did not say they cant come to know him if they dont speak in tongues,when I came to know God I wasnt saved,I was a sinner,and I didnt care about God,I became saved but I wasnt filled,you see when i came to church it was a true act of the holy spirit as of one day I just turned it to a christian station on tv and even though the preacher might have had something going on in her life that really changed me just in that instant,I still did bad things but God has grew me to a level where I know what I need to do to not sin,If I dont pray and if I dont rely on him I will sin but If I do those things I will have strength to resist.

I did not say that you cant come to know the Lord because you dont speak in tongues,I was talking about when someone is really filled with the Holy Ghost,so lets not start dropping words into my mouth.

When they spake in unknown tongues that means no one knew what they were saying,thats why it says when you speak in tongues its not to edify the church its for yourself as of no one knows what your saying.The heavenly tongue isnt from his world it is from God,and God gives us our own when we are filled.No you dont talk in english,The bible says when they were filled they spake in tongues as of the Spirit gave utterance,For example I was in church and I was praying in english and all of a sudden my words came out really funny,and later on I learned that the spirit gave utterance,thats what it means when it says the spirit gave utterance.If you were talking in english what tongue would that be,that wouldnt be a tongue from Heaven that would be from this earth.

But no In no way did I said you had to speak in tongues to recieve God,as of God didnt save me because I was speaking in tongues,but because someone was praying for me,the holy spirit came and moved in me.

Jesus loves us all,thats why he died for us,but His bride will not be those that are saved but those that are truly filled.That is why we must take this serious and not disagree with the word,Now I did make a mistake when I first posted and didnt provide scripture,but I corrected that not bu my own knowledge but because I looked in my doctrine book which goes by the word of God not mans word.And I remembered that some of that stuff was in there.So no I dont give credit to me,but to God.

LivingSacrafice
May 2nd 2008, 09:14 PM
By theres a difference between being saved and being filled with the holy Ghost,as of you cant enter heaven with out being filled with the true Holy Ghost.

awestruckchild
May 2nd 2008, 09:25 PM
I posted that,please do not put words into my mouth,I did not say they cant come to know him if they dont speak in tongues,when I came to know God I wasnt saved,I was a sinner,and I didnt care about God,I became saved but I wasnt filled,you see when i came to church it was a true act of the holy spirit as of one day I just turned it to a christian station on tv and even though the preacher might have had something going on in her life that really changed me just in that instant,I still did bad things but God has grew me to a level where I know what I need to do to not sin,If I dont pray and if I dont rely on him I will sin but If I do those things I will have strength to resist.

I did not say that you cant come to know the Lord because you dont speak in tongues,I was talking about when someone is really filled with the Holy Ghost,so lets not start dropping words into my mouth.

When they spake in unknown tongues that means no one knew what they were saying,thats why it says when you speak in tongues its not to edify the church its for yourself as of no one knows what your saying.The heavenly tongue isnt from his world it is from God,and God gives us our own when we are filled.No you dont talk in english,The bible says when they were filled they spake in tongues as of the Spirit gave utterance,For example I was in church and I was praying in english and all of a sudden my words came out really funny,and later on I learned that the spirit gave utterance,thats what it means when it says the spirit gave utterance.If you were talking in english what tongue would that be,that wouldnt be a tongue from Heaven that would be from this earth.

But no In no way did I said you had to speak in tongues to recieve God,as of God didnt save me because I was speaking in tongues,but because someone was praying for me,the holy spirit came and moved in me.

Jesus loves us all,thats why he died for us,but His bride will not be those that are saved but those that are truly filled.That is why we must take this serious and not disagree with the word,Now I did make a mistake when I first posted and didnt provide scripture,but I corrected that not bu my own knowledge but because I looked in my doctrine book which goes by the word of God not mans word.And I remembered that some of that stuff was in there.So no I dont give credit to me,but to God.

I am so sorry-I was definitely not trying to put words into anyones mouth. I was commenting on the op's quote box that we do not receive all of the Holy Spirit at once and my belief that we do but we just have to take the time to get to know Him better and not quench Him.
Once again, my apologies for putting words in your mouth-it wasn't my intent.

awestruckchild
May 2nd 2008, 09:27 PM
It also might help if I tell you that I was commenting on many posts in here, not just yours. I am sorry.

awestruckchild
May 2nd 2008, 09:30 PM
By theres a difference between being saved and being filled with the holy Ghost,as of you cant enter heaven with out being filled with the true Holy Ghost.

Well then where do the saved ppl that can't enter heaven go?
And please keep calm-I am just asking.

IamBill
May 2nd 2008, 09:39 PM
9Marksfan, and others, maybe I can explain what we/some call being "Born again, or born of Spirit, or Re-Born".
As I am what many would probably call an "extreme" example.
I'll put this in terms that may not sound nice/correct, but do express the ignorance that I held at the time. I will be brief as possible.
---
Baptism -According to records, I was indeed Baptized in a Catholic church in 1959. - end of that story, whatever it was supposed to mean, and whatever 'catholic' meant.

*skip ahead some 30 years*
gods, toothfairy ..yeah, whatever, But to each his own
an atheist, also a term which I placed in the above category, had an 'event'.
An "event" that makes an OBE a fairy tail. All I ever knew, all my Reality, all Logic defied. My "Known" world shattered to dust.

SO -----
Believer - Day One -
GOD IS REAL, THIS IS ALL REAL you probably can't imagine what was behind that emphasis. So, likewise, can't imagine that within the same hour I was refused by church and learned my destiny was HELL.
PERIOD.
I returned home, told God -I was sorry, I didn't know, I blah blah blah...
I fell to the floor and crawled to my room, became very VERY sick, shivering, sweating and shaking in fetal position, my body turned to Lead. then I got worse ..and worse. I was unable to move, not even to 'dry heave'.
I would have taken my own life 'if only I could move an arm'. I begged he do it for me. I never felt such suffering.
I eventually accepted my destiny, I deserved it. and that, IF I had to live any longer ..and on and on and on. I was Dieing, or died and was In hell wasn't even sure. I was delirious.

Then someone roared, "the door is open", I awoke, startled. "What ?" I jumped out of bed checking doors, checking rooms "whos' here ?" .."Hello? "
Nothing !, as I chuckled, then, I realize three full days had passed. I stunk something fierce. I was so thirsty. Then, It all came back to me.. and I am alive, and I felt good. I became a Giddy giggling child. even though I was going to hell, or 'fit' to belong to a church. I would praise God the rest of my life, in all that I do.

Well, my first mission was to get me a Bible. 15 minutes later I was back home and opening it, I was so excited. so so excited.
first page, humm, next, elsewhere, here, there... I couldn't hardly pronounce the words, It hardly made sense. ...I was CRUSHED, I fell to the floor again, SOoo stupid I was to think I could ever be dirt for Him to tread on. I broke and bawled and cried in the most pathetic way.
"End it now" I thought, and with that, something happened, a tingling, warmth, goosebumps, my agony washed right out of me. Something caused my hands to close the book as I heard a whisper - "It's ok".

Tears, joy just gushed and poured out ..I could hardly speak
"THANK YOU JESUS"

THEN something else happened. Call it what you will. I didn't know.
It seemed that the room changed, I couldn't put my finger on it, It sort of 'alarmed' me. Then, something touched my head, I didn't dare move, It very slowly moved down, the edge was Very distinctive, inside and out, I expected
to see a visible line as it moved down through me, down my arms fingers, legs, to the very tips of my toes. Like a Hot bubble settled and engulfed me, or being slowly dipped head first into a tank of hot water.
Then, ..words just cannot do justice. Pure electrifying Love.

I didn't even know what happened, or why. At the time, I didn't know anything except that that had to do with Jesus, He was somehow inside me, and I was forgiven.
*********
so, now, excuse me here for awhile as I go collect myself.

.

awestruckchild
May 2nd 2008, 09:45 PM
Oh, IamBill, thank you for sharing that! I remember when I received the Holy Spirit too. I knew it was Jesus too, but it never occurred to me till later that it was my actual Holy Spirit baptism.
Thank you!!

LivingSacrafice
May 2nd 2008, 09:48 PM
Well then where do the saved ppl that can't enter heaven go?
And please keep calm-I am just asking.

Well its all in revalations,If you are saved and not filled with the Holy Ghost when Jesus comes,you will have to go through the great tribulation.Thats where the anti christ come in and all the things about getting the mark on your head.Well those that have the Holy Ghost wont be asked to take that mark because they were prepared to Go to heaven.

Thats why in the bible it says that there were 3-4 virgins or something like that,and they stayed in watch for the Lords coming,and they all had lamps,but I think only two of them had oil and the other two or so werent prepared and they didnt have any oil.So when the Lord came the two virgins without oil asked the ones with oil for oil and they said no ebcause I wont have enough.And it says they missed out because they werent preapred.

Thats exactly how it will be when Jesus comes,those that are truly filled with the Holy Ghost,without spot,wrinkle,or any such thing are the bride that hes coming back for in the rapture,and those that are saved are the ones who arent prepared.

Now those that are saved wont just go to hell,but they will have to go through the tribulation,there will be no more grace so no one will be able to be saved and God will go over to the Jews and save the true house of israel,thats where the 100,000 in revalations come in.But those that were saved before Jesus came will have a chance to still make it to heaven,but they will be asked to take the mark of the beast,the number six hundred sixty six[666] and if you take it you will go to hell,but if you dont you will be beheaded but you will go to heaven.The thing is there will be famine in that time,there will be so much pain and agony,more than anyone could imagine.And you will missed out on the wedding feast where Jesus will serve
his bride,and that also is in the bible.

This stuff is in the bible,and read revelations,thats not just for you thats for anyone out there.

awestruckchild
May 2nd 2008, 10:04 PM
Thanks for your answer. I had never quite looked on it all that way. Seems to make a certain amount of sense. Thank you.

LivingSacrafice
May 2nd 2008, 10:11 PM
By the way you probaly already know this,but to anyone out there,Im just a human being,thats why I say even though I've said what I said,Im not God,ask God to reveal the truth to you with your heart open to it,it doesnt always come how you want it to come.But God will do it,Im just a young man or teenager who loves the Lord,but God is almight,he is the one that we should go to.God will show you the truth more than I ever could.

Thats why I say to you all I am sorry,the first time I posted on here I ddint provide scripture even though I knew I should have.I must make that clear because I dont want anyone to Judge God by the mistakes I have made[even though we cant Judge him,sometimes we question him and say God this and God that]

The first time I posted which was in another post,I said some true things,but then I ran into some parts where I didnt kow the full truth so I added my own words.But for now on I will provide scipture Like I did with a post an hour or two ago.

But just remember that the word of God is what we want to learn by,not by what a human being says,but if a human being those speak the word of God,if that person those provide scripture to back it up and arent cutting corners,then we know it is truth,but God is the ultimate person we should all go to.

SoldierOfChrist
May 2nd 2008, 11:54 PM
Bill thank you very much for sharing! One part of your experience really made me smile. :)

"the door is open"



Then someone roared, "the door is open", I awoke, startled. "What ?" I jumped out of bed checking doors, checking rooms "whos' here ?" .."Hello? "
Nothing !, as I chuckled, then, I realize three full days had passed.
.I experienced something different but similar. I understand this following scripture from a revelation of Jesus Christ like yours.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

I guess you understand what this scripture means:

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Insert Bill's name where Simon Barjona is!

Michael

SoldierOfChrist
May 3rd 2008, 12:05 AM
By the way you probaly already know this,but to anyone out there,Im just a human being,thats why I say even though I've said what I said,Im not God,ask God to reveal the truth to you with your heart open to it,it doesnt always come how you want it to come.But God will do it,Im just a young man or teenager who loves the Lord,but God is almight,he is the one that we should go to.God will show you the truth more than I ever could.I really like your passion, humility and commitment to the lord. Knowledge and understanding don't come overnight and I'm a lot older than you and still make many mistakes. I prayed for knowledge and understanding many years ago and the lord showed me many things, some I didn't understand for years after and some I'm am yet to fully comprehend.

Keep reading those scriptures, walk with the spirit and always question what man teaches you!

Michael

SoldierOfChrist
May 3rd 2008, 12:15 AM
Michael, this is what I believe. In order for Christ to be revealed to anyone, He must be revealed thru the Holy Spirit.
It is the Holy Spirit that reveals Christ to us. Once we have that revelation of Christ, we get revelation thru Christ in the Word, of the Father, in which the Holy Spirit guides us into this truth. Christ reveals the Father to us. Christ came to do not His will, but the will of the Father, thus revealing the Father to us. No one can have Christ and the Father, and not have the Holy Spirit. No one can have the Holy Spirit and Christ, and not have the Father, etc. My point is, no one can be saved if this link is broken.
This is why JWs are not saved. They believe that they can get to the Father without the Son. There is only one way to the Father, and that is thru the Son. No one can have the Son, unless the Holy Spirit has revealed Him unto them. And no one can have access to the Father but thru the Son. Do you see how this link works?

My point is this, it is impossible for a true believer, one that the saving power of Christ, and the Father, has been revealed unto them, and not have the Holy Spirit, because it is the Holy Spirit where we get this revelation from.We agree except I only mentioned one faith that denies the Spirit and there are many.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Michael

SoldierOfChrist
May 3rd 2008, 01:05 AM
I will made a couple of points for the others but I'm not interested in your argument. Many times when someone cannot intelligently defend their position on a message board they will start to make personal attacks and then usually add a bunch of info that is not even related to the topic. The topic goes off in different directions and nothing is learned, the thread becomes pointless...


I meant to say was that you cannot say that those who have truly trusted Christ BUT DON'T SPEAK IN TONGUES are somehow not saved and haven't received the baptism of the Holy Spirit!

I never said that and I didn't title or start this thread!

Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.



I beg to differ - have you checked out any decent commentaries on the verses? I think you'll find that most of them adhere to the view I've propunded - if it was the door of the HEART, then surely Jesus would have said "doorS"! As it is, the Laodiceans felt they could do without Christ - He was actually outside their meeting place! But Christ said to any CHRISTIANS there who heard His knocking, that He would have fellowship with THEM!


Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
The door is the Spiritual door not the door of the church.



YOU are the one who is wrong!

Well Nigel through the revelation of Jesus Christ this mystery was revealed to me. Should I share it with you? This scripture comes to mind:

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Here is why:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
He is addressing the men of church... "if any man hear my voice"... the spiritual man knows that what sup with him means.



So all the women are just barred from fellowship with Christ?


If I had said "He is addressing the women of church" you would have said that is not what the scripture reads.

If I had said "He is addressing the men and women of church" you would have said that is not what the scripture reads.

If I had said "He is addressing the people of church" you would have said that is not what the scripture reads.

I'm not going there with you and I am quite familiar with the woman at the well with Jesus.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
When I recieved the Holy Spirit I knew the minute I did and can still recall the moment. I have something many belivers do not have as the Father revealed himself unto me.

Then we have comments like this:


Well I think you're deluded - God has no favourites! No "first class Christians" and "second class Christians", as you would like to believe.....


You seem to want to take things out of context and twist them, sorry but I'm not going to play!

I'm not going to say to much more to you, as it is written:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

To some people a walk in the park is Spiritual but not to me.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
How does the believer know that the Spirit is with them if they have no sign... and I'm not talking about tongues! How can the Holy Spirit teach us anything if you have no contact with him?



What sign DO you mean?


I will explain once more and if you don't get it, well ask the lord to open your eyes that you might see. Read below where it says "will manifest myself to him". It means you know!

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

I'm not interested in repeating myself so go back and read what I said until you get it... or not.

Michael

IamBill
May 3rd 2008, 03:30 AM
Oh, IamBill, thank you for sharing that! I remember when I received the Holy Spirit too. I knew it was Jesus too, but it never occurred to me till later that it was my actual Holy Spirit baptism.
Thank you!!

:) you are welcome. I hope it helps clear some things up here.

IamBill
May 3rd 2008, 04:11 AM
Bill thank you very much for sharing! One part of your experience really made me smile. :)

"the door is open"

I experienced something different but similar. I understand this following scripture from a revelation of Jesus Christ like yours.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

I guess you understand what this scripture means:

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Insert Bill's name where Simon Barjona is!

Michael

:) severely condensed version. Yes, imagine my surprise when I finally read that verse ! And many others.
I am not sure what all happened once the Holy Spirit filled me. it overwhelmed me, I woke hours later, I don't know what I had seen, I know I heard many things, I understood many things, and knew Much was to come in due time.

Anyway, I hope it helps others understand better the differences between Johns' baptism, doctrine of Man, and being born of and taught by the Holy Spirit.
then again ?

Eph 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

;)

9Marksfan
May 4th 2008, 04:51 PM
I will made a couple of points for the others but I'm not interested in your argument.

Ah - a closed mind....


Many times when someone cannot intelligently defend their position on a message board they will start to make personal attacks and then usually add a bunch of info that is not even related to the topic. The topic goes off in different directions and nothing is learned, the thread becomes pointless...

Guess you're referring to me - care to be specific?


I never said that and I didn't title or start this thread!

Do you believe it, though?


Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
The door is the Spiritual door not the door of the church.

Well Nigel through the revelation of Jesus Christ this mystery was revealed to me.

Ah, the infallibility of personal revelation from the LORD Himself! So how come the Spirit didn't use the word anthropos, (or better still arren or arsen), if Scripture is meant to be abundantly clear in all things.......???


Should I share it with you? This scripture comes to mind:

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Wow - you sure don't speak like someone who has a hotline to the Throneroom.......so you're saying I'M not saved, right? Who are YOU to judge?


Here is why:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
He is addressing the men of church... "if any man hear my voice"... the spiritual man knows that what sup with him means.

If you took some time to examine the meaning of tiv in the original Greek and ALL other translations, you would see that what Jesus is saying is "anyONE" - there's nothing at all to suggest from the original Greek that a man is in mind - that's why John was led by nthe Spirit to use the word tis (someone, a certain one) instead of anthropos (although even anthropos tends to be used to refer to mankind/humanity in general) or arren or arsen (male).


If I had said "He is addressing the women of church" you would have said that is not what the scripture reads.

Correct - because it isn't.


If I had said "He is addressing the men and women of church" you would have said that is not what the scripture reads.

Correct, because you are excluding the children - they are covered by tiv too.


If I had said "He is addressing the people of church" you would have said that is not what the scripture reads.

No - because that is what tiv means - anyone in the church.


I'm not going there with you and I am quite familiar with the woman at the well with Jesus.

Hmm - relevance? :hmm:


Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
When I recieved the Holy Spirit I knew the minute I did and can still recall the moment. I have something many belivers do not have as the Father revealed himself unto me.

Then we have comments like this:

You seem to want to take things out of context and twist them, sorry but I'm not going to play!

Well if you're not going to defend your statements, comments like "I'm not going to play" come over as not really worth making.....


I'm not going to say to much more to you, as it is written:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I see - another thinly veiled accusation that I'm unspiritual = unsaved! Just because I dare to disagree with you?


To some people a walk in the park is Spiritual but not to me.

Huh?!? :confused


Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
How does the believer know that the Spirit is with them if they have no sign... and I'm not talking about tongues! How can the Holy Spirit teach us anything if you have no contact with him?

I will explain once more and if you don't get it, well ask the lord to open your eyes that you might see. Read below where it says "will manifest myself to him". It means you know!

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

I'm not interested in repeating myself so go back and read what I said until you get it... or not.

Michael

Well NOW you're making things a bit clearer - Rom 8:16 - right? :thumbsup:

SoldierOfChrist
May 5th 2008, 02:59 AM
I don't mind discussing things with you Nigel but I'm not going to play the word games with you.



Guess you're referring to me - care to be specific?


I was very specific and I don't care to repeat myself.



Do you believe it, though?


Obviously you have only read my posts to YOU and I don't care to repeat myself.



Ah, the infallibility of personal revelation from the LORD Himself! So how come the Spirit didn't use the word anthropos, (or better still arren or arsen), if Scripture is meant to be abundantly clear in all things.......???
Ya... the Holy Spirit should have spoken Greek to me so I would have known that it was people and not just men. Lucky I had the internet and the Lexicon. But the point is that you pick out something again that has nothing to do with what we were talking about and twist it.



Wow - you sure don't speak like someone who has a hotline to the Throneroom.......so you're saying I'M not saved, right? Who are YOU to judge?
I can look back through your twisted logic and find that, yup!

Why would I want to discuss anything with someone going around mocking me and saying "Well I think you're deluded". You are the one judging me and the spirit within me.

You mentioned blasphamy to me... well read it:

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Mark 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.



If you took some time to examine the meaning of tiv in the original Greek and ALL other translations, you would see that what Jesus is saying is "anyONE" - there's nothing at all to suggest from the original Greek that a man is in mind - that's why John was led by nthe Spirit to use the word tis (someone, a certain one) instead of anthropos (although even anthropos tends to be used to refer to mankind/humanity in general) or arren or arsen (male).

Correct, because you are excluding the children - they are covered by tiv too.


This is good example of what I mean you are looking for an argument where there is NONE. I really have to laugh as you still found one... now I'm excluding the children...:crazy: Keep jumpin to your conclusions!



No - because that is what tiv means - anyone in the church.


You are right because I had assumed it was anthropos and I didn't realize it was tiv. That's a big mistake isn't it? This stuff is pointless!

Seek and yee shall find. You are looking and finding... but what you are finding is not even close to the truth!

I am not here to be tested or judged by you. You are a moderator not a tester of some ones character. As a moderator you should be held to a higher standard and as an example of how to act on a message board. Rude moderators full of pride and ego can easily take away from the quality of an internet forum like this one.

Just so ya know where I'm coming from I have been the administrator of 3800 member message board for the past 7 years. I have never posted on a Bible forum before this one ever. In my forum every once and a while I have to warn the old crew that they are not there to test and try the new members but are to welcome them. Do you think mocking me makes you look good? Stand back and look!

Wow another post full of useless crap! Well done... maybe we can just delete the whole thread now and you can have your way? Is that one of the other ways you prove your point?

1 Corinthians 8:1 ...Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

Nigel I have forgotten more than I know, but regarding Spiritual things I know them well and not because I'm smart or better than anyone else but because the Lord has shown them to me.

My appologies to anyone reading this! I probably shouldn't have answered it... I hate this kind of crap!

Michael

Revinius
May 5th 2008, 04:57 AM
This argument is looking pretty sinister, if you dont do it out of love your doing it fruitlessly.

Studyin'2Show
May 5th 2008, 11:54 AM
Okay, that's enough of this nonsense. :rolleyes: This thread is now closed.