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9Marksfan
May 2nd 2008, 02:42 PM
How do Dispensationalists reconcile their enthusiasm over the 60th anniversary of the creation of the state of Israel with the fact that - as a whole - the Jews STILL hate Christ?

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0501/breaking84.htm

David Taylor
May 2nd 2008, 03:15 PM
How do Dispensationalists reconcile their enthusiasm over the 60th anniversary of the creation of the state of Israel with the fact that - as a whole - the Jews STILL hate Christ?

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0501/breaking84.htm


Not much different than the Gentiles by the billions throughout history prior to Pentecost that rejected Christ.

Narrow is the way, and straight is the gate that leadeth unto eternal life, and few find it.

It's not a Jewish or Gentile thing; but rather, humankinds hearts, more often than not, are wicked, and reject the Lord; although He is not very far from any one of them.

Grafted_In
May 2nd 2008, 03:27 PM
Dispensationalists see Israel as a fulfiling of prophecy, the ingathering of the exiles in the latter days. And despite their unfaithfulness God has not rejected them completely, and I believe He will pour out His spirit on them in the last days, and they will accept the one whom they pierced.
And hey, their are still billions of Gentiles who also reject Christ.

9Marksfan
May 2nd 2008, 04:17 PM
I accept all these points - my point was that I believe it's TOTALLY wrong to make such a fuss about Israel as a nation, defending them and cow-tow'ing to them like SOME US preachers do (hem hem - I think we all know who I'm referring to!) - not only because of their barbaric actions but more importantly because they are STILL rejecting Christ - so until they start believing on Him in BIG numbers, PREACHING THE GOSPEL TO THEM should be the focus of our interest in Israel - agreed? Or is some Hyperdispie going to come in with the "dual covenant" theory and say that all they need to do is be good Jews and live up to the requirements of the Old Covenant - and they'll be OK! No need to come to Christ! Believe me, I've heard that nonsense!

Grafted_In
May 2nd 2008, 05:21 PM
not only because of their barbaric actions but more importantly because they are STILL rejecting Christ - so until they start believing on Him in BIG numbers, PREACHING THE GOSPEL TO THEM should be the focus of our interest in Israel - agreed? Or is some Hyperdispie going to come in with the "dual covenant" theory and say that all they need to do is be good Jews and live up to the requirements of the Old Covenant - and they'll be OK! No need to come to Christ! Believe me, I've heard that nonsense!

What barbaric actions? you mean defending themselves? they are practically surrounded by 400 million people who want them gone.
they are at war, have been for sixty years now. I often wonder what other countries would do in the same circumstances when being subjected to constant terror attacks, rockets fired into their towns on a daily basis.
If the holocaust taught them one thing, its that they wont go quietly again.

Sure, they need Christ, in a big way, its what I pray for daily, and sadly I read in scripture that the majority will perish before they DO finally accept Him.

God blinded the Jews to the truth so they would not believe until the appointed time. Although their are many more believing Jews now than at anytime in History, still they are the exception.

btw, I see youre in Scotland, I grew up there (Ayrshire) and I'd say Scotland is far from being the 'Christian nation' it once was in the days of the reformation and the covenanters.

Rangers FC, all the way!!

9Marksfan
May 2nd 2008, 06:25 PM
What barbaric actions? you mean defending themselves?

It's the indiscriminate killing of civilians - women and children -in retaliatory attacks - that is sickening. I'm no pro-Palestinian but I get embarrassed at Christians who support everything Israel does when they are just as bad as the Palestinians a lot of the time.


they are practically surrounded by 400 million people who want them gone. they are at war, have been for sixty years now. I often wonder what other countries would do in the same circumstances when being subjected to constant terror attacks, rockets fired into their towns on a daily basis. If the holocaust taught them one thing, its that they wont go quietly again.

Of course they have a right to defend themselves - all I'll say is I don't think they go about it in the best of ways a lot of the time.....


Sure, they need Christ, in a big way, its what I pray for daily, and sadly I read in scripture that the majority will perish before they DO finally accept Him.

God blinded the Jews to the truth so they would not believe until the appointed time. Although their are many more believing Jews now than at anytime in History, still they are the exception.

Agreed - but the problem I have is with those who think that NOW is the appointed time - and has been for the past 60 years! Until they start turning to Christ en masse, I don't reckon we have anything to celebrate....


btw, I see youre in Scotland, I grew up there (Ayrshire) and I'd say Scotland is far from being the 'Christian nation' it once was in the days of the reformation and the covenanters.

Sadly you're quite right - it is an utter tragedy that this country is as godless as most of the rest of Western Europe - just shows what can happen in less than two centuries.....


Rangers FC, all the way!!

Did you see the got into the UEFA Cup Final last night? First time since 1972 that they've done that! And Russian opponents AGAIN! They won 3-2 last time - let's hope they do it again! Our local team, Queen of the South, are in the Scottish cup final for the first time EVER against them later this month!

Ta-An
May 2nd 2008, 06:58 PM
I accept all these points - my point was that I believe it's TOTALLY wrong to make such a fuss about Israel as a nation, :hmm:
Did you know that you are commanded to pray for Israel?? :hmm:

amazzin
May 2nd 2008, 06:58 PM
How do Dispensationalists reconcile their enthusiasm over the 60th anniversary of the creation of the state of Israel with the fact that - as a whole - the Jews STILL hate Christ?

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0501/breaking84.htm

But Mark, there are many nations who reject Christ including here in North america. I could ask the same question to you -the Americans hate Christ?

Ta-An
May 2nd 2008, 07:00 PM
How do Dispensationalists reconcile their enthusiasm over the 60th anniversary of the creation of the state of Israel with the fact that - as a whole - the Jews STILL hate Christ?
This is what makes living so exciting.... if you love history.... for we are living history in the making!! The 60th anniversary marks a very important milestone for when Christ returns !! ;)

EDIT:

We are living in a time of grace.... where Gentiles have to opportunity to come into the fold..... when that time is over,,,, I believe, then the scales will fall off the eyes of the Hebrew nation .......besides.... Who is causing their blindness???? :hmm:

Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

9Marksfan
May 2nd 2008, 07:08 PM
:hmm:
Did you know that you are commanded to pray for Israel?? :hmm:

Yeah, I know - I just get annoyed when Christians justify every thing the Israelis do - and give the impression that, even though they have rejected Christ, were they to die in that position, they would still be in glory - do you believe that? That a Jew doesn't need to believe in Christ to be saved?

9Marksfan
May 2nd 2008, 07:09 PM
But Mark, there are many nations who reject Christ including here in North america. I could ask the same question to you -the Americans hate Christ?

I know - but I think people make WAY to big a fuss about Israel when we haven't really begun to see them turning to Christ - UNTIL that happens, I don't believe there's ANY cause to celebrate - they're as hellbound as non-believers in any other nation......

9Marksfan
May 2nd 2008, 07:11 PM
This is what makes living so exciting.... if you love history.... for we are living history in the making!! The 60th anniversary marks a very important milestone for when Christ returns !! ;)

How so? I've never heard that one before.....

Ta-An
May 2nd 2008, 07:17 PM
Yeah, I know - I just get annoyed when Christians justify every thing the Israelis do - and give the impression that, even though they have rejected Christ, were they to die in that position, they would still be in glory - do you believe that? That a Jew doesn't need to believe in Christ to be saved?Every person has to confess Christ as Savior Redeemer to enter into heaven.... there are MANY Jewish People that does so :)

Ta-An
May 2nd 2008, 07:26 PM
This is what makes living so exciting.... if you love history.... for we are living history in the making!! The 60th anniversary marks a very important milestone for when Christ returns !! ;)

How so? I've never heard that one before.....Instead of me rewriting what has already been posted, I'll refer you to a recent thread on this Message board : http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=123452

My argument is much the same..... ;)

You look at the signs of the time.... and there is another thread,,,, I'll look for it :idea:

Ta-An
May 2nd 2008, 07:38 PM
Another view....

The life of a Jew /Jewish nation is based a lot on symbology and types and examples......

Even when you look at the Star of David.... yes, it resembles the number 666 which also stands for the anti-Christ.... yet it also can stand for the six days of creation and the Sabbath, or the 6 days of the week and then the Sabbath....

The number 7 has a very strong value in the Jewish 'culture' for lack of a better word....
When the 6th day/or then 60th (6x10) year is completed, the 7th day or then 7th group of 10 years start..... a new phase of something new.... the Sabbath year, or the Sabbath or the time of rest starts.....

So Symbolically this is a age of something new to happen.....

I am not date setting, all I am saying is..... keep and eye on what is happening, know where we come from, watch for the Fig tree.... and don't be caught empty handed... :idea:

amazzin
May 2nd 2008, 07:57 PM
I know - but I think people make WAY to big a fuss about Israel when we haven't really begun to see them turning to Christ - UNTIL that happens, I don't believe there's ANY cause to celebrate - they're as hellbound as non-believers in any other nation......

Careful how you say that. God's plan for Israel is not yet completed. I beieve that in the end times Israel as a people will be the biggest group to be revived and saved. They will recognize Messiah as Lord and Saviour.

quiet dove
May 2nd 2008, 08:21 PM
Yeah, I know - I just get annoyed when Christians justify every thing the Israelis do - and give the impression that, even though they have rejected Christ, were they to die in that position, they would still be in glory - do you believe that? That a Jew doesn't need to believe in Christ to be saved?

Dispensationalism does not teach that Jews get to go to heaven based on ethniticity,(I cant spell that word). It teaches that at some point God will take the scales off their eye and they will accept Jesus. As far as 'hyperdipsie' goes, I don't know what that is.

The reason this is an exciting time to live is not because Israel is infallible, but because prophecy is exciting and the potential of watching it unfold before our eyes is exciting and leaves one in awe of our God.

MrAnteater
May 3rd 2008, 01:32 AM
Careful how you say that. God's plan for Israel is not yet completed. I beieve that in the end times Israel as a people will be the biggest group to be revived and saved. They will recognize Messiah as Lord and Saviour.

I think you're onto something. I hope they come to accept Jesus before it's too late and I feel especially bad for Messianic Jews who are persecuted by their own people.

diffangle
May 3rd 2008, 02:06 AM
How do Dispensationalists reconcile their enthusiasm over the 60th anniversary of the creation of the state of Israel with the fact that - as a whole - the Jews STILL hate Christ?

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0501/breaking84.htm
This might get the ball rolling, we might see Messianic Jews start moving to Israel now in high numbers, don't think they won't influence the Orthodox or the atheist Jews there...

From http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1208870469395&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


Messianic Jews are entitled to Israeli citizenship according to the Law of Return if their father is Jewish, according to a precedent-setting ruling handed down last week by the High Court of Justice

Fifteen years ago, the court rejected a petition by Messianic Jews who demanded to be recognized as Jews so as to automatically receive Israeli citizenship according to the Law of Return. In that landmark case, the court ruled that Messianic Jews had converted, and therefore were no longer Jewish.

Since then, the state has refused to grant all requests for citizenship according to the Law of Return by Messianic Jews.
Two years ago, however, a number of new immigrants to Israel belonging to the Messianic Jewish community petitioned the High Court after the Interior Ministry refused to grant them new immigrant status and citizenship according to the Law of Return.





It's the indiscriminate killing of civilians - women and children -in retaliatory attacks - that is sickening.

It's not indiscriminate killing of civilians, that's the Pals mode of operation. The Pals are notorious for blaming Israel of crimes they didn't commit, they(the Pals) also set up all their rocket attacks in areas where civilians live knowing full well they'll get more sympathy from the world when Israel is forced to retaliate and some civilians get killed. The Pals have been busted being good actors by staging so-called deaths and injuries suppossedly done by Israel, check out these video's in regards to that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=842IvLvbuVA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eww7BkkvFdo

Grafted_In
May 3rd 2008, 04:10 AM
I think you're onto something. I hope they come to accept Jesus before it's too late and I feel especially bad for Messianic Jews who are persecuted by their own people.
Yes, messianic Jews are given a hard time by both sides, by the Jews who say they've abandoned their people, and then by Christians who say they're not fully commited as Christians because they hold on to their roots.



Did you see the got into the UEFA Cup Final last night? First time since 1972 that they've done that! And Russian opponents AGAIN! They won 3-2 last time - let's hope they do it again! Our local team, Queen of the South, are in the Scottish cup final for the first time EVER against them later this month!
Yes I saw the highlights, it didnt look very good for Rangers for pretty much the whole game, but the keeper came through for them in the shootout, nice! Queen of the south in the Scottish cup? wow, thats a shocker!

My heart's Desire
May 3rd 2008, 04:23 AM
How do Dispensationalists reconcile their enthusiasm over the 60th anniversary of the creation of the state of Israel with the fact that - as a whole - the Jews STILL hate Christ?

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0501/breaking84.htm

Easy, despite it all they ARE still a Nation for 60 years and on God's land that He gave to them.
And yes, the fact does remain that Israel is still very much very secular.
I believe that is still a remnant that will be saved, not the whole Nation.

Naphal
May 3rd 2008, 07:08 AM
:hmm:
Did you know that you are commanded to pray for Israel?? :hmm:

Does it say Israel or Jerusalem?


Psalms 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.



called also Salem, Ariel, Jebus, the "city of God," the "holy city;" by the modern Arabs el-Khuds, meaning "the holy;" once "the city of Judah" (2 Chr. 25:28). This name is in the original in the dual form, and means "possession of peace," or "foundation of peace." The dual form probably refers to the two mountains on which it was built, viz., Zion and Moriah; or, as some suppose, to the two parts of the city, the "upper" and the "lower city." Jerusalem is a "mountain city enthroned on a mountain fastness" (comp. Ps. 68:15, 16; 87:1; 125:2; 76:1, 2; 122:3). It stands on the edge of one of the highest table-lands in Palestine, and is surrounded on the south-eastern, the southern, and the western sides by deep and precipitous ravines.

David Taylor
May 3rd 2008, 12:25 PM
God blinded the Jews to the truth so they would not believe until the appointed time.

Scripture doesnt support the postponement promise.(God has provided the immediate cure!)

Healing from blindness is appointed "at any time" anyone will repent!

2 Corinthians 6:2 (For Isaiah saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)


Luke 19:8 "And Jesus said unto Zacchaeus, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."


2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.


Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.


Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.


2Peter 3:9 The Lord is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.


Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

DurbanDude
May 5th 2008, 05:24 PM
Most of the posts have been right on.

When God drags the armies of Gog from their place in the far north , the reason is judgement on Israel. They will attack Israel and Israel will repent. Sure we can pray for the peace of Jerusalem , and that peace will come , because the bible says that Gog will attack a land at peace , an unsuspecting land.

So yes , we must pray for peace , yes Israel deserves judgment and will get it , and yes , they have a special destiny that will come about at the end.

markedward
May 6th 2008, 12:02 AM
Although their are many more believing Jews now than at anytime in History, still they are the exception.Not to pick on you specifically, but I see statements like this made all the time. Examples include:

More people die nowadays in a natural disaster than anytime in history!

More people believe in Christ now than anytime in history!

More people reject Christ now than anytime in history!

Saying these kinds of statements is like saying "More people live now than anytime in history." Obviously more there are "many more believing Jews now than at anytime in history" because there are more Jews alive today than there were anytime in history.

A thousand years ago the earth had, what, XX-million people living on the earth? There's nearly 7-billion people living on the earth now, so it doesn't prove anything to say "More people such-and-such now than anytime in history" because if the world population increases from something-million to something-billion, then the demographics are going to increase in number too. I'll put it into a simple example:

100 Jews were alive in year A. Of those 100 Jews, 10 believe in Christ.
1000 Jews were alive in year B. Of those 1000 Jews, 100 believe in Christ. A person could rightfully say "More Jews believe in Christ now than anytime in history." It would be a true statement, because obviously 100 is more than 10. But it's not going to make me raise my eyebrows. Why? Because 10/100 in year A is the same ratio as 100/1000 in year B. The overall population of Jews increased, but so did the sub-demographic increase, and at the same ratio.

Not to get the thread off track, but, again, statements like these are pointless to make because they're misleading.

Grafted_In
May 6th 2008, 03:59 AM
Still, its a fact that there are more 'Jewish Christians' now, than in any other time since the early Church.
40 years ago their were no 'messianic' congregations, anywhere! now there are hundreds in N America, and are even growing in Israel, and sure, theyre not all jews in these congregations, but the majority are.
Look into it.

Roelof
May 6th 2008, 10:22 AM
:hmm:
Did you know that you are commanded to pray for Israel?? :hmm:

ACCM

Can you please give more info?

Roelof
May 7th 2008, 01:20 PM
Torn by a political crisis that cast doubts over the future of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Israel commemorated its fallen soldiers on Wednesday on the eve of its 60th anniversary.
Olmert, who is fighting off calls to step down over fresh corruption allegations, marked Remembrance Day with a call to fight for the survival of the Jewish state - a nation shaped by conflict.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2317915,00.html

Roelof
May 7th 2008, 01:23 PM
When will Israel experience peace?


Israel said on Monday it had made "significant progress" on the issue of the future borders of a Palestinian state following a top-level meeting between the two sides.

"We have made significant progress on the two issues of outlining the borders of the future Palestinian state and the security arrangements between Israel and the Palestinian state," a senior Israeli official said. The official spoke after a meeting between Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas at which he was present.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2316942,00.html

Ta-An
May 7th 2008, 03:08 PM
ACCM

Can you please give more info?We are commanded to pray for the Peace of Jerusalem..... which ultimately include Israel Napal :)
Ps 122:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=122&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.

Grafted_In
May 7th 2008, 03:20 PM
When will Israel experience peace?
Sadly they'll never find 'true peace' til they acknowledge the Prince of peace!

1 Thessalonians 5:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=5&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Prophecy Man
May 7th 2008, 03:44 PM
Hi folks --
I haven't written lately been very busy. Just remember God's saving grace will be witnessed by the nations ( it already has been seen) when the final assault against Israel takes place on the plains of Jezrael. God will have to entervean to " save the Day " so to speak.
Do you understand when they became a nation after so long in exile they were attacked by at least seven ISlamic nations with the aim to drive the Jews into the sea. They were out numbered at least 120 to one without an army nor weapons to speak of and yet they got stronger during the fight and came out winners and it has not stopped to this day. Their enemies constantly attack them and they are swtill here.
It does not matter they have not accepted Christ they will at the appointed time. They will have to call on him as a nation for it is as a nation right now they are blamed and attacked. Many Jews know
Christ as Lord and they are witnesing to their fellow country man. It is true the majority do not know him like we do but unlike our country that keeps God out of every thing they constantly seek God's favor in all their doings. They are awaiting their redemption ( their words).

God bless you all
PM

Ta-An
May 7th 2008, 04:54 PM
It does not matter they have not accepted Christ they will at the appointed time.They will,,, just for some it will be too late...

timmyb
May 7th 2008, 05:22 PM
I did my first traditional Passover/Seder and I cried... it has so many in your face pointing to Christ parts in it.... I look at this and I think..."how can they miss it?"

I have a hard time agreeing with guys like John Hagee and other dispensationalist Zionist groups that don't evangelize the Jew or try to get them saved...

to withold the gospel from the Jew is worse than Anti Semitism... you're sentencing them to a fate far worse than the Holocaust by witholding Christ from them... They may hate him, but we still have and obligation to pray that their eyes would be opened

Naphal
May 8th 2008, 05:10 AM
We are commanded to pray for the Peace of Jerusalem..... which ultimately include Israel Napal :)
Ps 122:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=122&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.

The scripture only speaks of praying for the peace of the "city of peace". It does not say to pray for the nation of Israel, or to pray for the Jews etc etc.

We can pray for whomever we wish to but the scripture only speaks of Jerusalem, and I don't agree with you that it is a "command".


Jerusalem is where Christ shall be when he returns and peace will return to that city and the world at that time. To pray for the city's peace is to pray for Jesus to return there.

Roelof
May 8th 2008, 10:51 AM
ACCM

I will pray for Israel.

resbmc
May 8th 2008, 11:30 AM
for who ever blesses Israel will be blessed and whoever curses will be cursed, I think this is universal

Naphal
May 8th 2008, 11:02 PM
ACCM

I will pray for Israel.


Do you pray that they will convert to Christ or do you pray something else?

Roelof
May 9th 2008, 12:42 PM
Naphal

Praying for peace and that they will accept Jesus as Saviour.

ForChrist
May 9th 2008, 01:14 PM
I will add my prayers for Israel and ask that they come to the knowledge of Salvation through Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Firstfruits
May 9th 2008, 01:36 PM
I accept all these points - my point was that I believe it's TOTALLY wrong to make such a fuss about Israel as a nation, defending them and cow-tow'ing to them like SOME US preachers do (hem hem - I think we all know who I'm referring to!) - not only because of their barbaric actions but more importantly because they are STILL rejecting Christ - so until they start believing on Him in BIG numbers, PREACHING THE GOSPEL TO THEM should be the focus of our interest in Israel - agreed? Or is some Hyperdispie going to come in with the "dual covenant" theory and say that all they need to do is be good Jews and live up to the requirements of the Old Covenant - and they'll be OK! No need to come to Christ! Believe me, I've heard that nonsense!

Do not forget that their eyes have been blinded to the truth.

Jn 12:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Rom 11:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

2 Cor 3:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

2 Cor 4:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

A remnant shall be saved.

Rom 9:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Naphal
May 9th 2008, 09:35 PM
quote=Roelof;1632840]Naphal

Praying for peace and that they will accept Jesus as Saviour.[/quote]

Amen!

9Marksfan
May 9th 2008, 09:46 PM
Do not forget that their eyes have been blinded to the truth.

Jn 12:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Rom 11:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

2 Cor 3:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

2 Cor 4:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

A remnant shall be saved.

Rom 9:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Agreed - and that blinding is a judgement upon them - what gets my goat is those Christians who think Isreal can do no wrong - and will actually oppose and condemn Messianic Jews who try to proclaim Christ to their fellow Jews! :B

Grafted_In
May 10th 2008, 04:51 AM
Yes, many messianic Jews are given a hard time, the Christians will say they're too Jewish! and the Jews will say if you believe in Yeshua then you're no longer Jewish!, they face opposition from both sides.

David2
May 12th 2008, 02:54 AM
Mark

Agreed - and that blinding is a judgement upon them - what gets my goat is those Christians who think Isreal can do no wrong - and will actually oppose and condemn Messianic Jews who try to proclaim Christ to their fellow Jews! :B
You complain about many things here, but I did not see anyone on this thread saying that Jews will be saved without Christ or that they can't do anything wrong. I also believe in the restoration of Israel but I don't believe any of those things. I get the impression that some people hate the idea that the Bible says that the land of Palestine belong to the Jews and that they will be restored and saved. That is why they come up with all kinds of reasons to bring disrepute to Israel and to the people who pray for them.

9Marksfan
May 12th 2008, 08:47 AM
Mark

You complain about many things here, but I did not see anyone on this thread saying that Jews will be saved without Christ or that they can't do anything wrong. I also believe in the restoration of Israel but I don't believe any of those things. I get the impression that some people hate the idea that the Bible says that the land of Palestine belong to the Jews and that they will be restored and saved. That is why they come up with all kinds of reasons to bring disrepute to Israel and to the people who pray for them.

Well I'm not one of them (and I'm Nigel, btw - my Forum name comes from this website www.9marks.org (http://www.9marks.org) )

No one has come on board this thread yet (remember, I started it - with a view to debating with amy dual covenant folk out there), but believe me - such people DO exist! I believe that there will be a restoration of the people of Israel at the end of time but we're not seeing that yet in any significant way - ALL Jews MUST turn to Christ and believe on HIM as Messiah - the dual covenant guys believe they don't need to - all they need to do is be good Jews and God will overlook the fact they're looking for a different Messiah! It's THESE guys who defend absolutely everything Israel does - it's perhaps encouraging that not many of them are on this Forum but I just suspect that they either haven't come across this thread or (for whatever reason) are choosing not to post on it.

I also get very concerned with folk that think that the creation of a nation state for Israel is all we needed to be looking for in terms of end times prophecy - as if the Jews (as God's chosen people) don't need to be converted to Christ before His return - a kind of more moderate version of the dual covenant position (which is very much AGAINST evangelising Jews, because it will upset them! And why evangelise God's people if they're God's people already?).

Prophecy Man
May 12th 2008, 03:41 PM
To those who think if you do not accept Christ the first time it is too late to accept Him.

Many a person think Israel has had her chance by her rejection of Christ. They do not understand God almighty does not give up just because we say no the first time. I know a brother who is with the Lord right now and he bought into Morman doctrine for a long time. i witnessed to him many times. I couldn't believe my my eyes when one day he found me and announced to me he has accepted Christ. He was a hippie at one time and had that mentality before he joined the morman church. His conversion came when he told me the things he was believing about the morman church did not add up. He came to understand only Christ could save him so over night he cut his hair and the rest became history. He loved Christ for at least twenty more years, I just heard Don retired from his Job and he died six months later with kidney cancer.

God's holy Spirit is right now working in the hearts of thousands of Jews because their fellow born Again brothers and sisters are witnessing to them. I knew a family whose parents were in a concentration camp. The Lady who saw her seven brothers and sisters murdered didn't die with them. With tears she asked my pastor " Why has Hashem kept me alive " and my family has died? Why" My pastor told her " because he wants you to know the Messiah Jesus". We found out her children had accepted Christ and were afraid to tell her. My pastor handeled that situation very carefully. i am sure She found out her children has accepted Christ.

The bottom line is God has a plan and you and
I fit in it right along with the Chosen People and nothing they or us can change it.

Praise him

My heart's Desire
May 12th 2008, 04:40 PM
Well I'm not one of them (and I'm Nigel, btw - my Forum name comes from this website www.9marks.org (http://www.9marks.org) )

No one has come on board this thread yet (remember, I started it - with a view to debating with amy dual covenant folk out there), but believe me - such people DO exist! I believe that there will be a restoration of the people of Israel at the end of time but we're not seeing that yet in any significant way - ALL Jews MUST turn to Christ and believe on HIM as Messiah - the dual covenant guys believe they don't need to - all they need to do is be good Jews and God will overlook the fact they're looking for a different Messiah! It's THESE guys who defend absolutely everything Israel does - it's perhaps encouraging that not many of them are on this Forum but I just suspect that they either haven't come across this thread or (for whatever reason) are choosing not to post on it.

I also get very concerned with folk that think that the creation of a nation state for Israel is all we needed to be looking for in terms of end times prophecy - as if the Jews (as God's chosen people) don't need to be converted to Christ before His return - a kind of more moderate version of the dual covenant position (which is very much AGAINST evangelising Jews, because it will upset them! And why evangelise God's people if they're God's people already?).
I believe the Nation of Israel is still in God's plan, but believes it focuses more on the people, not on the Nation per say.
I'm not duel covenant for sure. All people need Christ as Savior. Just as there are a certain number of Gentiles who will be saved, there will be a certain number of Jewish people who will be too.

9Marksfan
May 13th 2008, 08:35 AM
I believe the Nation of Israel is still in God's plan, but believes it focuses more on the people, not on the Nation per say.
I'm not duel covenant for sure. All people need Christ as Savior. Just as there are a certain number of Gentiles who will be saved, there will be a certain number of Jewish people who will be too.

:agree: The people rather than the nation is a very good point - well said!

Firstfruits
May 13th 2008, 11:33 AM
:hmm:
Did you know that you are commanded to pray for Israel?? :hmm:

Can you please explain the following concerning prayer for Israel?

Jer 7:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Therefore will I do unto this house, which is called by my name, wherein ye trust, and unto the place which I gave to you and to your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh.
Jer 7:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim.
Jer 7:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.

Jer 11:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.
Jer 11:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.

Jer 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Thus saith the LORD unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the LORD doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins.
Jer 14:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Then said the LORD unto me, Pray not for this people for their good.
Jer 14:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.

Is 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Is 11:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

when is the consumation?

Dan 7:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

Dan 9:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Thanks

Firstfruits

Prophecy Man
May 13th 2008, 04:24 PM
The verses you posted is not the end of it. Sure God was mad at them. they disobeyed and that generation was punished. This in no way stops the plans and purposes of God especially when Israel is concerened.

Please read these passages.I don't have time to print them out but you can go look them up for your selves. Be honest with them. Sur God declared He was angry with them. this tells the whole story.

Read the whole ----- the whole chapter of Ezk chap twenty
the whole chapter points out God was Angry but he did not leave it that way---You figure it out.

PM

Naphal
May 13th 2008, 09:57 PM
Can you please explain the following concerning prayer for Israel?

Jer 7:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Therefore will I do unto this house, which is called by my name, wherein ye trust, and unto the place which I gave to you and to your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh.
Jer 7:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim.
Jer 7:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.

Jer 11:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.
Jer 11:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.

Jer 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Thus saith the LORD unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the LORD doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins.
Jer 14:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Then said the LORD unto me, Pray not for this people for their good.
Jer 14:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.

Is 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Is 11:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

when is the consumation?

Dan 7:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

Dan 9:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Thanks

Firstfruits

Excellent verses. We shouldn't pray for the Jews as in praying they will prosper how they are, to continue in their wicked and ungodly ways. God is angry and will not answer such prayers. The only prayer I think is allowed is to pray that they repent and turn away from their wrongs and accept the Messiah. Otherwise, pray not for them.

"Pray for the peace of Jerusalem"....is widely misused to go contrary the verses you have presented. Well done.

My heart's Desire
May 14th 2008, 06:07 AM
The verses you posted is not the end of it. Sure God was mad at them. they disobeyed and that generation was punished. This in no way stops the plans and purposes of God especially when Israel is concerened.

Please read these passages.I don't have time to print them out but you can go look them up for your selves. Be honest with them. Sur God declared He was angry with them. this tells the whole story.

Read the whole ----- the whole chapter of Ezk chap twenty
the whole chapter points out God was Angry but he did not leave it that way---You figure it out.

PM
Makes us even more thankful that God's anger no longer abides on those of us who believe in Christ Jesus! God desires to have mercy on man.

Firstfruits
May 14th 2008, 07:57 AM
Excellent verses. We shouldn't pray for the Jews as in praying they will prosper how they are, to continue in their wicked and ungodly ways. God is angry and will not answer such prayers. The only prayer I think is allowed is to pray that they repent and turn away from their wrongs and accept the Messiah. Otherwise, pray not for them.

"Pray for the peace of Jerusalem"....is widely misused to go contrary the verses you have presented. Well done.

Thanks Naphal,

I hope that someome will be able to explain these scriptures as to wether or not praying for Israels good is the same as praying for Israels peace

Jer 11:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.

Jer 14:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Then said the LORD unto me, Pray not for this people for their good.

Ezek 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=26&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no Peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:

Ezek 13:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=26&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.


Ezek 7:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=26&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Wherefore I will bring the worst of the heathen, and they shall possess their houses: I will also make the pomp of the strong to cease; and their holy places shall be defiled.
Ezek 7:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=26&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Destruction cometh; and they shall seek peace, and there shall be none.

Is this in regards to that which is spoken of by Daniel that Jesus told his disciples would come in the last days?

Mt 24:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Firstfruits

daughter
May 14th 2008, 08:31 AM
Got to say this...

Thank God that God's more patient than we are! Sixty years might seem a long time to us, but to God it's just another sixty years in the last several thousand. All peoples, including Israel, have been rejecting God since history began.

2Witnesses
May 14th 2008, 09:34 AM
Got to say this...

Thank God that God's more patient than we are! Sixty years might seem a long time to us, but to God it's just another sixty years in the last several thousand. All peoples, including Israel, have been rejecting God since history began.

Daughter,

You are so right. And here is the REAL point: NO ONE can come to the Father except the Spirit of God draw him! 'You' (anyperson) cannot just decide one day you will 'accept Jesus'. Jesus is not in some ticket couter somewhere waiting for customers.

When the Church began, God began it on a Jewish foundation. And then He made them apostles to the nations, that His salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.

But after awhile, the remnant in Judah was filled to the full number. And there was then, a roughly 1900 year time when God did not visit the Jews. Bit that a Jew could not besaved. He just did not seek them out.

Why? Because He was doing a grat work among the nations, calling out from them a people for His name. It was the time of the Gentile as it were.

But now, in these end of days, He is once again visiting the Jews. He is seeking out the rest of His remnant. And there ARE now more Jewish believers than were at the foundation of the Church.

Remember, the Nation will never be saved. It is the Remnant! It is just as it is among ANY nation. All America will never be saved. All of Canada will never be saved.

'All Israel' only means believers! And the Bible NEVER says all the nation Israel will believe.

2Witnesses

Naphal
May 14th 2008, 10:06 AM
And here is the REAL point: NO ONE can come to the Father except the Spirit of God draw him! 'You' (anyperson) cannot just decide one day you will 'accept Jesus'.

That's actually very untrue but I don't want to get into it for the sake of side tracking the thread. There is a reason people are drawn to God and its in the next verse.

Prophecy Man
May 14th 2008, 03:39 PM
Just to let you know Israel as whole will be saved but before that takes place God has a multitude of witnesses (as we live and breath) in the land of Israel. This is happening through Messianic pastors and teachers and even in their military. So many Jews are hearing the good news of Christ right now.
Did you know the whole land Of Israel ( the people of course ) practices things we here in America are making a crime ( not quite there yet ).
Things like praying at sporting events, court judges prayin, and shuting down the whole country on the Sabbath. All radio programs and radio stations are God focused. We have to have stations exclusive for that. In israel every station is exclusive for " Heshem ".
The whole world hates Israel and blames Israel for all the terror and I just found out some prominent pastors believe the Jews have control of our on Congress. Their money , they believe , influences trade and even politics. How ubsurd, That is retoric right out of " Mein Kamph ".
You are right in saying all individuals in Israel must accept Christ and it is happening right now. But to say Israel right now is not propheticly important, that their being in the land is not significantly important is a case of " not seeing the trees because of the forest ".
There is no one I know of that believes in a dual Covenant. The Covenant ( Jer 31 : 31 ) refered to in scrfipture is the one we the Church has entered into with israel. That Covenant is kept by God Almighty Himself and if not for israel we , the Gentile , Would be lost. God stated that if His covenant with Day and night ( yes there is such a thing ) can be broken then then he would cast of israel.
Without The Jew we would not have a bible , we know nothing of God's love and most important we would not have a saviour. I worship Christ and Him alone but I bless Israel which is bible.
WE just have to put things in order.

I would like to have your comments

P M

Grafted_In
May 14th 2008, 05:07 PM
Well said, I agree wholeheartedly!
I think some Christians and non-Christians alike dont see the connection between todays Jews and the ancient Israelites of scripture. I've had arguments with some who totally reject that notion, and believe the Jews are mostly imposters despite the evidence to the contrary.
I guess that would be the christian identity position which is totally false and I'll leave that there.

Firstfruits
May 15th 2008, 08:16 AM
The verses you posted is not the end of it. Sure God was mad at them. they disobeyed and that generation was punished. This in no way stops the plans and purposes of God especially when Israel is concerened.

Please read these passages.I don't have time to print them out but you can go look them up for your selves. Be honest with them. Sur God declared He was angry with them. this tells the whole story.

Read the whole ----- the whole chapter of Ezk chap twenty
the whole chapter points out God was Angry but he did not leave it that way---You figure it out.

PM

I agree that God has been merciful to Israel many times, but yet God has said he will destroy not only Israel but all that dwell on the earth.

Jer 7:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall Be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon Beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not Be quenched.

Jer 15:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Thou hast forsaken me, saith the LORD, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting.
Jer 15:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And I will fan them with a fan in the gates of the land; I will bereave them of children, I will destroy my people since they return not from their ways.

Ps 75:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=75&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.

This earth will be destroyed, God will destroy his people, but a remnant shall be saved.

Is 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
Rom 9:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

There is a time when Israel shall have peace but not until after the consumation, and the day of the Lord has come. This will be in the new Jerusalem.

Rev 21:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
May 15th 2008, 08:26 AM
Just to let you know Israel as whole will be saved but before that takes place God has a multitude of witnesses (as we live and breath) in the land of Israel. This is happening through Messianic pastors and teachers and even in their military. So many Jews are hearing the good news of Christ right now.
Did you know the whole land Of Israel ( the people of course ) practices things we here in America are making a crime ( not quite there yet ).
Things like praying at sporting events, court judges prayin, and shuting down the whole country on the Sabbath. All radio programs and radio stations are God focused. We have to have stations exclusive for that. In israel every station is exclusive for " Heshem ".
The whole world hates Israel and blames Israel for all the terror and I just found out some prominent pastors believe the Jews have control of our on Congress. Their money , they believe , influences trade and even politics. How ubsurd, That is retoric right out of " Mein Kamph ".
You are right in saying all individuals in Israel must accept Christ and it is happening right now. But to say Israel right now is not propheticly important, that their being in the land is not significantly important is a case of " not seeing the trees because of the forest ".
There is no one I know of that believes in a dual Covenant. The Covenant ( Jer 31 : 31 ) refered to in scrfipture is the one we the Church has entered into with israel. That Covenant is kept by God Almighty Himself and if not for israel we , the Gentile , Would be lost. God stated that if His covenant with Day and night ( yes there is such a thing ) can be broken then then he would cast of israel.
Without The Jew we would not have a bible , we know nothing of God's love and most important we would not have a saviour. I worship Christ and Him alone but I bless Israel which is bible.
WE just have to put things in order.

I would like to have your comments

P M

Not all Israel shall be saved, only a small remnant.

Rom 9:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Is 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
Is 10:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Is 10:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

Is 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Firstfruits

Naphal
May 15th 2008, 08:29 AM
All Israel shall be saved...its just that it's ALL of a part, the part that is loyal to Jesus.


It's that remnant that is the ALL at the time.




Not all Israel shall be saved, only a small remnant.

Rom 9:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Is 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
Is 10:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Is 10:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

Is 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
May 15th 2008, 08:59 AM
Just to let you know Israel as whole will be saved but before that takes place God has a multitude of witnesses (as we live and breath) in the land of Israel. This is happening through Messianic pastors and teachers and even in their military. So many Jews are hearing the good news of Christ right now.
Did you know the whole land Of Israel ( the people of course ) practices things we here in America are making a crime ( not quite there yet ).
Things like praying at sporting events, court judges prayin, and shuting down the whole country on the Sabbath. All radio programs and radio stations are God focused. We have to have stations exclusive for that. In israel every station is exclusive for " Heshem ".
The whole world hates Israel and blames Israel for all the terror and I just found out some prominent pastors believe the Jews have control of our on Congress. Their money , they believe , influences trade and even politics. How ubsurd, That is retoric right out of " Mein Kamph ".
You are right in saying all individuals in Israel must accept Christ and it is happening right now. But to say Israel right now is not propheticly important, that their being in the land is not significantly important is a case of " not seeing the trees because of the forest ".
There is no one I know of that believes in a dual Covenant. The Covenant ( Jer 31 : 31 ) refered to in scrfipture is the one we the Church has entered into with israel. That Covenant is kept by God Almighty Himself and if not for israel we , the Gentile , Would be lost. God stated that if His covenant with Day and night ( yes there is such a thing ) can be broken then then he would cast of israel.
Without The Jew we would not have a bible , we know nothing of God's love and most important we would not have a saviour. I worship Christ and Him alone but I bless Israel which is bible.
WE just have to put things in order.

I would like to have your comments

P M

When you say "all Israel shall be saved" the scriptures regarding that add one very important point, as you will see in the following.

Rom 11:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Is 59:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=59&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

Remember that Isaiah already said that a remnant shall be saved.

Is 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Is 10:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Is 10:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

Is 10:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Firstfruits

9Marksfan
May 15th 2008, 09:14 AM
Did you know the whole land Of Israel ( the people of course ) practices things we here in America are making a crime ( not quite there yet ).
Things like praying at sporting events, court judges prayin, and shuting down the whole country on the Sabbath. All radio programs and radio stations are God focused. We have to have stations exclusive for that. In israel every station is exclusive for " Heshem ".

But NONE of that is acceptable to God because their faith and worship are NOT through Christ - since He is the ONE mediator between God and man, Jewish worship apart from Christ is FALSE and will incur the wrath of God.


There is no one I know of that believes in a dual Covenant.

OK - time to name him - John Hagee does.


The Covenant ( Jer 31 : 31 ) refered to in scrfipture is the one we the Church has entered into with israel.

Pleae provide Scripture to prove that the church enters into any convenant with Israel.


That Covenant is kept by God Almighty Himself

Er, isn't it MADE by God with the Israel of God, ie all true believers?


I bless Israel which is bible.

What do you mean by that?

Roelof
May 16th 2008, 09:54 AM
I read an advertisement in a local newspaper yesterday, describing the situation between Israel and the Palestines as similar to Apartheid in South Africa many years ago.

resbmc
May 16th 2008, 02:29 PM
the remnant is physical, in the human body, Gods Judgement will be to each, as to what is in there heart, same as he will all unbeivers who never had a chance to hear the word, same as the O.T. what was in your heart. God knows.

Firstfruits
May 16th 2008, 02:59 PM
the remnant is physical, in the human body, Gods Judgement will be to each, as to what is in there heart, same as he will all unbeivers who never had a chance to hear the word, same as the O.T. what was in your heart. God knows.

Not all have been blinded.

Rom 11:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

A remnant shall be saved.

kansmith61
May 16th 2008, 03:11 PM
Hi 9Marksfan,
You bring up a lot of questions trying to find answers as I have done myself.
I was brought up in church and that was always the saying that Israel was God's chosen people. I never thought anything else until a few years ago when the word Zionism came up. I did some reading about this and figured this was some people against Israel and wanted to distort the truth. I did some other research on different items and started finding some other information about Zionism. It seemed that Zionism was not jews but what were they and where did they come from.
From the news I got a bit of information about the US Liberty Ship that was struck by Israel. http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html
Now things were not making any since to me. About a year ago I saw a news clip that Ahmadinejad(Iran) stated that "The problem is not with the Jews. The problem is with Israel".
Now I'm saying to myself, this person knows something that not many people know about. I then found this information. http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/index.cfm
This is a lot of information on this web site. I think we need to go back to Genesis 25 and reread that chapter.

Genesis 25:22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD. 23And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.


Now I can see a start of something Good and Evil now forming.
In Genesis 35:10 it states that Jacob name was changed to Israel. At this point it becomes interesting. The United Nations started the state of Israel. But why did the UN do that. Now there is a very fine line that, to me, is starting to form. On one side(Jacob), America is a christian nation. Christians believe the Bible as I do. I believe that its a road map for us. But, its people listen to ministers that they rely on to tell them the truth that is the problem. The people don't read for them selves. The ministers get caught up in there 501c3's that are controlled by the government. So they try to please the people on one side and the government on the other. Now I also don't think all the ministers are doing this. This is where, I think, in Revelations that John talks to the seven Churches.
On the other Side(Esau) is a control of people, land, religion comes into play. This is the Elite side of Skull and bones, Knights of Malta, FreeMason, Club of Rome all come into play. People get caught up into these societies without checking them out first because they offer you so much of the worldly things. They don't look at the Biblical view.


With Israel giving land away and doing some things about our own elections here, I think The True Jews have got hi-jacked from there land. I believe that the UN setup the state named Israel to fit into the Christians world to make them believe they were the jews of the Bible. Now here again I am not talking about the true Jews. I am sure there are true jews in the army of Israel. Its the main ones controlling the country that are not the true jews. Its like in this country (US). Our leaders are making laws that make no since only to them. Our constitution is being destroyed in plain sight. But too many people watch TV and don't research what is going on behind the scenes.


This is like a large picture puzzle that you try and put the pieces together from information you get by doing research. I hope I'm wrong but this is the way I see it taken place. Its coming down now faster than 20 years ago and until now most of this did not make any since.

AnaA
May 16th 2008, 10:12 PM
The time of the Gentiles to be saved through Christ hasn't yet ended, so that's why the Jews look to God, and Him only.

IamBill
May 16th 2008, 10:32 PM
About a year ago I was handed a book titled "Jerusalem Countdown" and was told to give it a read.
I read most of the first page ...and said, "no thanks" handing it back.
******

"God's Will" - Will be done regardless of 'what' and 'when' we want.

...and attitudes do reflect the true inner man.
We must pray for ALL.

ShirleyFord
May 17th 2008, 12:04 AM
The time of the Gentiles to be saved through Christ hasn't yet ended, so that's why the Jews look to God, and Him only.

Jesus said to those Jews in the first century,"If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me....it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
" (John 8:42, 54)

Today is the day of salvation for both Jews and Gentiles.

Paul said this, "(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation) (2 Cor 6:2)

In Acts 4:12, we find Peter standing up and saying to all of the religious rulers of Israel that was for all Israel, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Roelof
May 17th 2008, 05:40 AM
Al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden slammed Western leaders for taking part in Israel's 60th birthday celebrations and vowed that Muslims would not give up "one inch of Palestine", in an audio message on Friday.
"The participation of Western leaders with the Jews in this celebration confirms that the West supports this ugly Jewish occupation of our lands and that they stand in the Israelis' trench against us," Bin Laden said in the "message to Western peoples" posted on the internet.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2323757,00.html

9Marksfan
May 17th 2008, 09:03 AM
The time of the Gentiles to be saved through Christ hasn't yet ended, so that's why the Jews look to God, and Him only.

And do you think that God will accept them when they are rejecting Christ?

Firstfruits
May 17th 2008, 12:22 PM
Jesus said to those Jews in the first century,"If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me....it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
" (John 8:42, 54)

Today is the day of salvation for both Jews and Gentiles.

Paul said this, "(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation) (2 Cor 6:2)

In Acts 4:12, we find Peter standing up and saying to all of the religious rulers of Israel that was for all Israel, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."


Hi Shirley,

Amen!!!!!

IamBill
May 17th 2008, 04:56 PM
This is like a large picture puzzle that you try and put the pieces together from information you get by doing research. I hope I'm wrong but this is the way I see it taken place. Its coming down now faster than 20 years ago and until now most of this did not make any since.

;) (have you read "the protocols" yet ?)

Grafted_In
May 18th 2008, 11:46 PM
;) (have you read "the protocols" yet ?)

Are you referring the the protocols of the elders of Zion? that was proven a forgery, a hoax made up by some Russian to justify hatred of the Jew.

They regularly show the film version in moslem Arab nations, the whole blood libel accusation and such, and that the Jews are all part of a satanic cult that sacrifices 'christian babies'.
Its the same old story thats been passed down through the centuries since the rise of Christianity, Hitler was just another addition in the promoting of this sorta hate.

IamBill
May 19th 2008, 01:04 AM
Film Version ??? sacrificing Christian babies ? (never heard that one before)
A centuries OLD Hoax ? PROVEN ? do you have a link to that ?

either way it was NOT the question ;)

Grafted_In
May 19th 2008, 01:14 AM
Film Version ??? sacrificing Christian babies ? (never heard that one before)
A centuries OLD Hoax ? PROVEN ? do you have a link to that ?

Do a search on Google, I know for a fact that Egyptian tv shows the film every passover.
The protocols was written in the late 19th century I believe. I just know it wasnt written by Jews and was debunked as a hoax years ago.

http://ddickerson.igc.org/protocols.html
http://skepdic.com/protocols.html
http://christianactionforisrael.org/antiholo/protocol.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_blib2.htm

IamBill
May 19th 2008, 01:33 AM
I dont have a link myself, Do a search on Google, I know for a fact that Egyptian tv shows the film every passover.
I didnt say it was centuries old (the protocols) not sure when it was written, I just know it wasnt written by Jews and was debunked years ago.

Well for one, Yes it was supposedly written by what eventually became known as Zionists not Jews and traced back to the roots of the Rothschild's family,17th century, and if I remember right, was only discovered because the guy 'hand delivering' the book between parties was struck by lightning in the center of some town, which was considered an act of God.

I have skimmed the book in excess of 15 years ago, and to be frank, it was not something a Movie could be made out of no more than this thread could.
so I can't imagine what is being shown on Egyptian TV

also We can google and find that the Bible is fraudulent :lol:

BUT again the question was IF kansmith has read it ?
we are derailing !
;)

kansmith61
May 19th 2008, 01:03 PM
;) (have you read "the protocols" yet ?)

No Bill, I have not heard of it.

diffangle
May 19th 2008, 02:59 PM
Well for one, Yes it was supposedly written by what eventually became known as Zionists not Jews and traced back to the roots of the Rothschild's family,17th century, and if I remember right, was only discovered because the guy 'hand delivering' the book between parties was struck by lightning in the center of some town, which was considered an act of God.

I have skimmed the book in excess of 15 years ago, and to be frank, it was not something a Movie could be made out of no more than this thread could.
so I can't imagine what is being shown on Egyptian TV

also We can google and find that the Bible is fraudulent :lol:

BUT again the question was IF kansmith has read it ?
we are derailing !
;)
You aren't remembering right... the Protocols was a rip off of Maurice Joly's book. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion#Origins_and_co ntent



Elements of the text in the Protocols were plagiarizations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarized) from the 1864 book, Dialogue aux enfers entre Machiavel et Montesquieu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dialogue_in_Hell_Between_Machiavelli_and_Monte squieu) (Dialogue in Hell Between Machiavelli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machiavelli) and Montesquieu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_de_Secondat%2C_Baron_de_Montesquieu)), written by the French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_people) satirist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire) Maurice Joly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Joly). Joly's work attacks the political ambitions of Napoleon III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_III) using Machiavelli as a diabolical plotter in Hell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell) as a stand-in for Napoleon's views. Joly himself appears to have borrowed material from a popular novel by Eugène Sue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%A8ne_Sue), The Mysteries of the People, in which the plotters were Jesuits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Jesus). Jews do not appear in either work. Since it was illegal to criticize the monarchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy), Joly had the pamphlet printed in Belgium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium), then tried to smuggle it back into France. The police confiscated as many copies as they could, and it was banned. After it was traced to Joly, he was tried on April 25 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_25), 1865 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1865), and sentenced to 15 months in prison at Sainte-Pelagie. Joly committed suicide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide) in 1878.

diffangle
May 19th 2008, 04:44 PM
Hi 9Marksfan,
You bring up a lot of questions trying to find answers as I have done myself.
I was brought up in church and that was always the saying that Israel was God's chosen people. I never thought anything else until a few years ago when the word Zionism came up. I did some reading about this and figured this was some people against Israel and wanted to distort the truth.

The anti-Zionists are against Israel/Jews and do distort the truth.



I did some other research on different items and started finding some other information about Zionism. It seemed that Zionism was not jews but what were they and where did they come from.

A Zionist is to Israel as an American is to America. Being a Zionist is the same thing as being an American.



From the news I got a bit of information about the US Liberty Ship that was struck by Israel. http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html
Now things were not making any since to me. About a year ago I saw a news clip that Ahmadinejad(Iran) stated that "The problem is not with the Jews. The problem is with Israel".

Then why did the Arab Muslims make an alliance with Hitler (http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/musnazi.html)against the Jews prior to the state of Israel?



Now I'm saying to myself, this person knows something that not many people know about. I then found this information. http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/index.cfm

The Nutrea Karta/Jewsagainstzionism are a very small radical group that have no basis in the Scriptures... they're basis is the Talmud, they're leader has also been caught being on the payroll of Yassir Arafat.:rolleyes:



This is a lot of information on this web site. I think we need to go back to Genesis 25 and reread that chapter.

Genesis 25:22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD. 23And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.

Right, this ultimately about two brothers fighting.

Gen 27:41 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=27&v=41&t=KJV#41)And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob.



Now I can see a start of something Good and Evil now forming.
In Genesis 35:10 it states that Jacob name was changed to Israel. At this point it becomes interesting. The United Nations started the state of Israel. But why did the UN do that. Now there is a very fine line that, to me, is starting to form. On one side(Jacob), America is a christian nation.

You lost me... are you saying that Jacob is America?



Christians believe the Bible as I do. I believe that its a road map for us. But, its people listen to ministers that they rely on to tell them the truth that is the problem. The people don't read for them selves. The ministers get caught up in there 501c3's that are controlled by the government. So they try to please the people on one side and the government on the other. Now I also don't think all the ministers are doing this. This is where, I think, in Revelations that John talks to the seven Churches.
On the other Side(Esau) is a control of people, land, religion comes into play. This is the Elite side of Skull and bones, Knights of Malta, FreeMason, Club of Rome all come into play. People get caught up into these societies without checking them out first because they offer you so much of the worldly things. They don't look at the Biblical view.

What does this have to do with Israel and/or the Jews?


With Israel giving land away and doing some things about our own elections here, I think The True Jews have got hi-jacked from there land. I believe that the UN setup the state named Israel to fit into the Christians world to make them believe they were the jews of the Bible. Now here again I am not talking about the true Jews. I am sure there are true jews in the army of Israel. Its the main ones controlling the country that are not the true jews.
Are you talking about the conspiracy theory that the Kahzars are occupying the land of Israel? Is so, it's already been proven through genetic testing that the Jews in Israel are indeed Jews.

IamBill
May 19th 2008, 05:53 PM
No Bill, I have not heard of it.

:) even better ;)
It obviously has been changed anyway :lol:
I think it referred to "Illuminati" and the powers that drive the Governments/ Wars through finance...all about the roots of the so called "wealthy elite" who want to rule over ALL mankind. Your post reminded me of it

but evidently It was plagiarized and changed into a Zionists/Jew thing :hmm:

Thanks :)

IamBill
May 20th 2008, 02:41 AM
Grafted_In, diffangle

I just wanted to add that I googled "the PoEoZ" and have to agree and note that the web versions are not what I had seen in that book.
and Actually it's title was simply "Protocols", it was a "Bloodline/roots" and an "Outline" containing NO commentary or explanations.

So Grafted, back to your original question

Are you referring the the protocols of the elders of Zion?
Nope
My apologies
:)

The Village Idiot
May 20th 2008, 03:17 AM
"some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree" (Ro 11:17).

Paul's analogy suggests to me that believers in Christ are grafted in among them to become partakers with them of the rich sap. In other words, the same promise which sustains one sustains the other also.

Another way of putting this might be to say that there has always been one, Abrahamic church. The unbelieving were cut off, but the rest continued. Gentile believers in Christ are now ingrafted so that they become partakers. And so, all Israel will be saved.

Unbelieving Jews have little to celebrate. We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. Let them come to Jesus Christ. Thus returning to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they will be admitted to the table of the Lord.

kansmith61
May 20th 2008, 02:56 PM
[quote=diffangle;1644235]

What does this have to do with Israel and/or the Jews?

It has a lot to do with them.
Lets go back for a moment. The British was the ones that named most of the land everywhere on the face of the earth. I found a document, a few years back, when some cities in South Africa was changing there names from that of the British names that was given to them. We know that The British named territories in the US but we drove them out and started our own constitution. If you want to follow that line, look up what happened to our forefathers that wrote the Constitution son after they signed it.
Back to Israel. Remember that God changed Jacob's name to Israel. In the Bible, you can find 1578 occurrences stating "Of Israel" and there are 95 occurrences stating "In Israel". Now note that way back some of our land was just marked by a tree or rock and that was called our piece of land belonging to whom ever. When it talks about in Israel, I believe that this was a piece of land so marked that everyone knew it was the Jews land of Jacob. Now this consisted of twelve tribes. Here is a tree that I found. http://www.complete-bible-genealogy.com/names/esau_182.htm
Now lets move forward to the year 1947 when Israel became a nation.
http://tinyurl.com/2ny7zThis shows how Israel was started and borders set up to become a place. To call it Israel might have been a stolen name like that of Jacob from Esau. Remember that Christians relate Israel to Jews. Its always been that way as I knew it. But now in 1967 we have a war. http://imeu.net/news/article005371.shtml
I won't go into depth here as you can read the article but why did Israel attack when later was stated that they deliberately chose war.
I believe that something was started here that continues today. Questions come in mind of if they are truly Jews, why do they keep giving away land that God gave them. What really happened to Sharon.
Today when you listen on the news you hear of Cops now taking DNA from people. They claim its because of former arrest or trying to find former offenders. I think its a cover up and they are still looking for any Jewish blood lines. Its like the real ID act. They make people think its a good cause and really lay out the facts but its deceiving. I also believe that the US has to be taken down before all this in Revelations comes into play. Because we are a Christian nation, we have to be taken out of the picture.
Just take a look at what nations are grouping together now, drawing up there war plans against each other. A Christian nation would not war against Israel, but the Bible so states that ALL nations would come against Israel. So This is why I believe the US is gone as is the Church.

Prophecy Man
May 20th 2008, 05:16 PM
Thanks for answering me.
Yes, John Hagee believes Dual covanent Theology. I Just found out just recently

BLESS ISREAL --Gen 12: 1-3 (all familes of the earth will be blessed through them )

MY POINT CONCERNING ISRAEL BEING GOD FOCUSED--it is not that their worship is false but that they are looking for Him and their blinders will be removed to see him

THE NEW COVENANT ---- Jer 31: 31
This covanant was made with Israel not the Church, the Church was not in existance at that time.
We the Church was Grafted in as the word says in the book of Romans.
They were up rooted as the word says and torn down but the word also says they will also be built up again.
A time is coming God will make a new Covenant with them and not like the one He made with them in the Desert, with Moses. they broke that covenant but the new Covenant God will keep it not anyone else.
vs 35 God has made a promise with Israel they will not be removed from the land but will be established and this can be broken only if the fixed order of day and night were to cease. In other words God would do away with the earth before he would reject Israel.

ACTS 2 Peter spoke up and reminded the ones in the upper room ( 120 of them ) they were witnesing the start of the new covenant " spoken of by Joel the Prophet "
FACT ---the ones in that room were Jews

FACT--- Paul was sent to the Gentiles and Also Peter went to the
house of Cornelious a Gentile when Peter was told to go there
FACT--- This is where the Church intered in with Israel

YES GOD HAS REMNANT AT ALL TIMES---- As you can see the Church was grafted in. unfortunantly only a believing portion of all Israel will be saved and it will be through Grace.

I have more but no more time ---- God bless
PM

ShirleyFord
May 20th 2008, 06:53 PM
ACTS 2 Peter spoke up and reminded the ones in the upper room ( 120 of them ) they were witnesing the start of the new covenant " spoken of by Joel the Prophet "
FACT ---the ones in that room were Jews

I have more but no more time ---- God bless
PM

Doug,

Great to see you again. :)

I think you need to re-read Acts 1 and 2.

We find 120 Jews gathered in the upper room when the day of Penticost had fully come:

Acts 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty)

Then in Acts 2, Peter preached his first recorded sermon to a multitude of Jews, the household of Israel from every nation under heaven:

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?


And these multitude of Jews who had come to the temple to celebrate the Feast of Penticost were so amazed:

12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

3000 Jews believed the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and were added to the Church:

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Prophecy Man
May 21st 2008, 04:58 PM
Yes I have been away and i may be prevented again also because my time is so limited.

The posting you put up Shirley strenthens my point, The 120 were Jews and the end result of 3000 souls saved were also Jews. This is keeping with Israel receaving the new Covenant , The Gentiles ( us ) were later added , I might add Jesus did not save any group accept the lost House of Israel. Paul was rejected by Israel when he preached Jesus and said from hinsforth was going to the Gentiles.
Peter only wanted to witness to Jews but a vision was given to him three times concerning Koser issues and was ordered to go to the house of Cornelious a gentile, preach the gospel and save his family. At the first concel Peter retold his story and said it was then the Gentile must be added to the Church. WE as I said were grafted in, The Jews were already in God's plan but not saved but the plan was to save them from the start. The Gentiles were never in god's plan untill the new covenant. Don't get me wrong, Gentiles were saved in the old testemant because they heard of God's greatness THROUGH ISRAEL which is part of God's plan to beless the whole world through Israel.

God bless and I await your comments------Doug

9Marksfan
May 21st 2008, 08:37 PM
Paul's analogy suggests to me that believers in Christ are grafted in among them to become partakers with them of the rich sap. In other words, the same promise which sustains one sustains the other also.

Another way of putting this might be to say that there has always been one, Abrahamic church. The unbelieving were cut off, but the rest continued. Gentile believers in Christ are now ingrafted so that they become partakers. And so, all Israel will be saved.

Unbelieving Jews have little to celebrate. We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. Let them come to Jesus Christ. Thus returning to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they will be admitted to the table of the Lord.

EXCELLENT post, TVI - in fact that verse from Rom 11 has helped me understand Jn 15:2 in a new light now - the true "church" did NOT start at Pentecost and, in a real sense, started with Abraham - the branches in the Vine that did not bear fruit were the unbelieving Jews - they were broken off and, if they did not repent and believe in Yeshua as Messiah, they would eventually be burned.

9Marksfan
May 21st 2008, 08:43 PM
I might add Jesus did not save any group accept the lost House of Israel.

But did He save ANY group? He was only sent to the lost House of Israel, yet that passage involves the Syrophoenician woman, who was NOT a Jew - yet Jesus said "GREAT is your faith!"


Paul was rejected by Israel when he preached Jesus and said from hinsforth was going to the Gentiles.
Peter only wanted to witness to Jews but a vision was given to him three times concerning Koser issues and was ordered to go to the house of Cornelious a gentile, preach the gospel and save his family. At the first concel Peter retold his story and said it was then the Gentile must be added to the Church. WE as I said were grafted in, The Jews were already in God's plan but not saved but the plan was to save them from the start.

When exactly? At THAT time? If so, did God's plan fail?


The Gentiles were never in god's plan untill the new covenant.

Nonsense - your next comment shows the fallacy of that argument.


Don't get me wrong, Gentiles were saved in the old testemant because they heard of God's greatness THROUGH ISRAEL which is part of God's plan to beless the whole world through Israel.

So did God plan to include Gentiles in the Old Covenant or did Israel go beyond the call of duty to proclaim the LORD to the Gentiles?!?


God bless and I await your comments------Doug

What do you think of The Village Idiot's post?

The Village Idiot
May 23rd 2008, 03:22 AM
EXCELLENT post, TVI - in fact that verse from Rom 11 has helped me understand Jn 15:2 in a new light now - the true "church" did NOT start at Pentecost and, in a real sense, started with Abraham - the branches in the Vine that did not bear fruit were the unbelieving Jews - they were broken off and, if they did not repent and believe in Yeshua as Messiah, they would eventually be burned.

Any thoughts on this text?


"...in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions..." (Col 2:11-13).

9Marksfan
May 23rd 2008, 10:37 AM
Any thoughts on this text?

I love that passage for a whole lot of reasons - but I'm maybe guessing that it's the spiritual circumcision that you're referring to? They are not all Israel who are Israel - in the OT, true IUsrael were those who believed - who had circumcised their hearts - it's the same now - unless we have been made new creatures in Christ with hearts of flesh instead of stone, then we will ALL be lost - whether Jew or Gentile. But God has ONE way of saving folk - the new birth - forgiveness through Christ - for Jew and Gentile.

The Village Idiot
May 23rd 2008, 01:53 PM
Well--obviously many people must disagree with this reading of the text, BUT...

Some find in Co 2:11ff the idea that baptism replaces circumcision as the sign of the covenant (which is why some churches practice infant baptism). As I say, some disagree. But if baptism is the new sign of God's promise administered in the place that circumcision once stood--then we have a very powerful image illustrating our engrafting into the one, Abrahamic covenant/church of Christ. Baptism is also a core, theological commitment of the church. This understanding of it can help clarify not only the relationship of the church to the promise, but also the nature of the gospel (the exclusivity of Christ over Moses) the nature of God's dealings with us, and the nature of ministry. It certainly answers the question of whether God is pursuing two agendas or one.

Because Christ put an end to all blood rituals, the sign of blood (circumcision) must give way, and that its use must be abolished. Now the sign of baptism is applied in the place that circumcision once stood.

Take another look at Co 2:11ff. I'd be interested in hearing what you think. This is certain--we're looking at major, paradigm shift here.

Blessings!

wpm
May 23rd 2008, 05:28 PM
Well--obviously many people must disagree with this reading of the text, BUT...

Some find in Co 2:11ff the idea that baptism replaces circumcision as the sign of the covenant (which is why some churches practice infant baptism). As I say, some disagree. But if baptism is the new sign of God's promise administered in the place that circumcision once stood--then we have a very powerful image illustrating our engrafting into the one, Abrahamic covenant/church of Christ. Baptism is also a core, theological commitment of the church. This understanding of it can help clarify not only the relationship of the church to the promise, but also the nature of the gospel (the exclusivity of Christ over Moses) the nature of God's dealings with us, and the nature of ministry. It certainly answers the question of whether God is pursuing two agendas or one.

Because Christ put an end to all blood rituals, the sign of blood (circumcision) must give way, and that its use must be abolished. Now the sign of baptism is applied in the place that circumcision once stood.

Take another look at Co 2:11ff. I'd be interested in hearing what you think. This is certain--we're looking at major, paradigm shift here.

Blessings!

Where does it say that infant baptism has taken over as the replacement of circumcision?

Paul

The Village Idiot
May 24th 2008, 04:36 AM
Hi wpm! This is as close as you'll get.



"...in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism..."

The idea is that "you don't need circumcision, because you have been circumcised already--with a circumcision made without hands--how? when? --having been buried with him in baptism.

These texts don't reference children (although Ac 2:38f names them as inheritors of the promise), but the argument is made that the spiritual import and efficacy of circumcision (ex: De 10:16; 30:6; Ez 11:19-20; 36:26-27) is now seen in baptism (cf. Ro 2:28-29). Since we are grafted into the same promise (Ro 11:17-18), have Abraham as our father, and have the same faith as Abraham (Ro 4:16), are Abraham's descendents and inheritors according to promise (Ga 3:29), and are children of promise (Ga 4:28), etc.

Clearly, this is a theological construct (like the Trinity), and there are no direct references to children. I won't develop this here as it really doesn't belong on an eschatology board. But you've got some ideas for further study here if you want. Pierre Charles Marcel's work, "Baptism: Sacrament of the covenant of grace" is as god a statement on the matter as I've found. I think it's been reprinted in the past year or so.

I tossed this out on the assumption that Marksfan or someone might see the application in context of eschatological discussion. One covenant in all ages in which gentiles participate by faith in Christ pretty much tosses the distinctive "Israel" programme out the window. The requirment of baptism upon profession of faith in Christ now rests upon Jews as an utter necessity. The sign of circumcision (read "Moses") avails them nothing. The sign of baptism (read "Spirit") saves.

Of course Abraham had circumcision as a covenant sign from God 400 years before Moses. It never was about law. It was always about faith (Ga 3:16-17). Abraham was to mark his descendents with the sign (Ge 17), and we are Abraham's descendents (Ro 4:16) because the promise is given to all who believe in Jesus (Ga 3:22).

On another matter, I forgot to offer a thought on Ga 3:16, which is one of my favorite texts.


"...the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ" (Ga 3:16 ).

Isn't it extraordinary that Paul makes this point--"he didn't say 'seeds' but 'seed!'" As I read it, the singular "seed" means that ultimately, Jesus Christ IS Israel--the only one who ever loved, trusted, and obeyed our heavenly Father perfectly. No less than those sealed with the sign of circumcision (Ro 4:11), that is now laid upon us who are sealed in Christ by the promised Holy Spirit, who is the pledge (oath) of our inheritance (Ep 1:13).

Time to crash! Blessings, wpm, and keep up the work!

Shortness
May 27th 2008, 10:15 AM
If there ever comes a time where Israel does decide to accept Jesus as the Messiah, it won't be the same Jesus that was crucified and in heaven right now interceding on our behalf, but a false one.

Behold, thy house is left unto you desolate.

Prophecy Man
May 27th 2008, 05:39 PM
I have heard this argument before. The church dating back to the time of Abraham and all believers have been addaded in at that time. The only reference I know of that eluds to that information is found in the book of Hebrews where it talks about entering into " His Rest " and the " Church in the wilderness ".
That Church was Jewish , it had nothing to do with Gentiles. I don't know but is this now church the same as the one in the wilderness?

I understand the church we now speak of is the one that Christ said He would build through the same method Peter was commended for " Blessed are you Simon Bar Jona, for flesh and blood did not reveal this to you but my father in heaven and upon this Rock I will build my Church. "
I think the word used there is the word meaning
" called out from amoung ".
I may be wrong but the word used in hebrews refering to the Church in the wilderness is a different word with a different understanding.

I don't pretend to know everything and I am teachable I hope.

I know getting our focus right is important. We must all keep the commandment Christ gave us , to " Go Ye into all the world ..... ect "

This is my aim and I believe God is going to finish what he started from the beginning and that is God would use Israel to make himself known through His defence of Israel. At no time has this been more important because you can go on the internet and veiw comments that were made by the enemies of Israel. It looks like pasages right out of the Old Testement concerning their statements when they say " let us cut them off , Let us drive them from the land , Let us wipe them out , let the name of Israel be mentioned no more ".

A web site you can go to is Memri.org and you will view comments from people who hate israel and the U S A. This site translates speaches made by people from the Mid East.

Surley you folks know how the Jewish people are hated and attacked daily and how they must keep watch or their enemies will over run them.
what part does the Israel you know of fit in with this problem? You call your self Israel but do you fit in with these people who are opressed constantly.

I will finish with this " they call us infidells " and hate us because

# 1 we are unbelievers ( of their faith )

# 2 WE support Israel ( they hate us for supporting Israel ) This is the only reason we pay such a high price for gas. We do use mideast oil

The moment we stop supporting israel our gas prices will come down.

Doug

My heart's Desire
May 27th 2008, 05:53 PM
I have heard this argument before. The church dating back to the time of Abraham and all believers have been addaded in at that time. The only reference I know of that eluds to that information is found in the book of Hebrews where it talks about entering into " His Rest " and the " Church in the wilderness ".
That Church was Jewish , it had nothing to do with Gentiles. I don't know but is this now church the same as the one in the wilderness?

Doug
I find what you say here interesting as I recently heard a bit of word study on "Church" "ekkesia" (sp?) Church doesn't always mean the Body of Christ, etc. Meaning of an assembly etc. The context will help intrepretation of wherever the word is found.

The Village Idiot
May 27th 2008, 06:02 PM
Like multiple churches? I seriously doubt that. In fact, I doubt that even you believe that. Perhaps you should rephrase.

We know about Memri, Camera, etc. Personally, I put more stock in Scripture than what they say--regardless of what impact this has on the price of gas.

Paul's analogy of the tree (Ro 11) suggests that believing gentiles are grafted into the root, so that they, together with believing Israel, are sustained by the rich, nourishing sap of the promise. I note that the "hardening" was partial. I tend to think that believing Israel and believing gentiles are the Israel that is Israel--as opposed to those who are not Israel that are Israel (if you take my meaning).

As for eretz Ysra'el--they should swap places with those in the occupied territories for a week. They might then realize that mishpat precedes shalom.

I tend to see nationalism (Israel, America or anywhere else) as heretical ideology. Christians owe everything to their only Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore they owe the state nothing. The powers of this age (of which eretz Ysra'el and the USA are two) are arrayed against Christ as should be evident from Col 2:15. I tell you what--if you want to make people mad, Col 2:15 is the way to do it.

Two more points.

Abraham rejoiced to see Christ's day (Jo 8:56).

Jesus Christ is Israel (Gal 3:16).

Naphal
May 27th 2008, 09:00 PM
The only reference I know of that eluds to that information is found in the book of Hebrews where it talks about entering into " His Rest " and the " Church in the wilderness ".
That Church was Jewish , it had nothing to do with Gentiles. I don't know but is this now church the same as the one in the wilderness?

I think the meaning of the word there is "gathering" not "Church" as we think of it in modern terms, plus there were gentiles intermingled with the Jews that kept the laws and lived as Jews.

However, whatever "Church" it was back then is not the same Church it is now. The Church today is the body of Christ, followers of the Son Jesus.

Soldier4Him
May 27th 2008, 10:10 PM
Dearest Marksfan,

Wow, you sure attracted a great deal of attention with this string. I want to say from the start that I didn't have the time to read all of the posts here so please forgive me if my post is redundant.


Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come,when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel saith the Lord, and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Just as a side note: The Greek word ἡμέρα (hēmera) (days) is speaking to the last days, the judgment days. This means that the new covenant with Israel will be made in the last days. Despite your personal problem with Israel as a nation God seems to have a plan for their salvation. God's timetable is not always the same as ours.

I hope this helps.

Yours in Christ
Soldier4Him

Naphal
May 27th 2008, 10:35 PM
This means that the new covenant with Israel will be made in the last days. Despite your personal problem with Israel as a nation God seems to have a plan for their salvation. God's timetable is not always the same as ours.

The covenant spoken of is the one of the new testament which is the same word as covenant. It's now, not a future covenant and there is no special plan to save racial Israel anymore than to save any other people. Those who are saved are in Christ and those who are not saved are not in Christ. That's the one and only plan.

9Marksfan
May 27th 2008, 10:53 PM
Dearest Marksfan,

Wow, you sure attracted a great deal of attention with this string. I want to say from the start that I didn't have the time to read all of the posts here so please forgive me if my post is redundant.

It's not - and I'm as surprised as anyone about the interest this thread has generated!



Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come,when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel saith the Lord, and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Just as a side note: The Greek word ἡμέρα (hēmera) (days) is speaking to the last days, the judgment days. This means that the new covenant with Israel will be made in the last days.


But the "last days" are the time from Christ's first coming until His return - even Hebrews makes this clear!

"has in these last days spoken to us through His Son..." Heb 1:2a NKJV



Despite your personal problem with Israel as a nation God seems to have a plan for their salvation. God's timetable is not always the same as ours.


My personal problem with Israel as a nation (which is a problem I believe everyone should have, hence this thread) is that they are STILL rejecting Christ - so I don't see anything to rejoice about - YET! As some others have said, God's plan is clearly with a PEOPLE not a NATION - but just who ARE spiritual Israel?!?


I hope this helps.

Yours in Christ
Soldier4Him



Well, it certainly adds to the dicussion - tell me this, though, doesn't the contect of Heb 8 make it clear that the ne covenant had already begun with the new era of the Spriit following Pentecost? Let me put it another way - do you think the church is referred to much or even at all in the OT prophecies? Or are they all about national or ethnic Israel?

Shortness
May 28th 2008, 06:50 AM
I think the point should be emphasized that God's people are the community of believers who accept Jesus as their Saviour. Anything less seems kinda unbiblical?

The Village Idiot
May 28th 2008, 01:42 PM
I think the point should be emphasized that God's people are the community of believers who accept Jesus as their Saviour. Anything less seems kinda unbiblical?

Are we not looking at one people of God, from Abraham into the eschaton?



"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad" (Jo 8:56).

"...in you all the families of the earth will be blessed" (Ge 12:3).

"The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU" (Ga 3:8).

"Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, 'And to offsprings,' referring to many, but referring to one, 'And to your offspring,' who is Christ" (Ga 3:16).

"We hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one. He will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith" (Ro 3:28-30).

"For good news came to us just as to them" (He 4:2).

"But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe" (Ga 3:22).


Think of it as one, Abrahamic church in Jesus Christ.

Prophecy Man
May 30th 2008, 02:52 PM
First and foremost I thank all of those who are contributing to this discuission.:pp

You said it like it is, no one is saved apart from believing in Jesus as Lord. Here is some thing i had a problem with when i was attending a local church. We would go out on tuesdays and visit people in the neighborhood and share the gosple and see people get saved. We would read and discuss scripture all the time. Then a person came into our study who starting talking about Spiritual Israel. No one had a problem with it and we moved on but the question always ( my problem ) arose " what is Spiritual Israel and why did not our pastor tell us about Spiritual Israel?

I went to another church and the best sunday school teacher I had ever been under couldn't answer the Question as " what is Spiritual Israe?" a good brother who thinks Kenneth Copland is his pastor tried to explain it to me and he left me searching. All he could say was Christ is coming back to a " glorious Church " which is Spiritual Israel.

I decided only the text of the scripture could explain it to me, all I had to do was find the verses and chapters it would be located in. I did find it and I can't sum it up in just a paragraph or a few words. To arrive at Spiritual Israel it takes a bunch of verses and a train of thought that leads one to see Spiritual. ( do any of you see what I am driving at)

Concerning Memri.org

my point for bringing it up in the first place is a person can read first hand comments from people who hate Israel. I was trying to show antisemitisim at it's best.


I was going to post a study I did this week on Jeremiah chapters 30 and 31 but actually anyone of you can turn to those chapters and read them your self. It will be clear as a bell as to who God's people are and His description of how ------

God declares he is , and still is , punishing Israel for her sins.

God also declares He will have mercy on them

God declares He will save them FROM AFAR

God declares He will bring them back into their own land

God declared he would bring them back from all the countries He has
driven them.

It is reasonable to say we the Gentiles entered into all the promises of God by faith through the same believing faith as Abraham did.


but my dear people we would have not realized that promise without Christ and we would not have Christ without Israel.
Why then
is Satan still trying to wipeout all of Israel
( Hitler not the last) If God is not going to save them as a nation then was it not a nation God saved under the Nazies or as people are saying "God only saves individuals ". God saved a nation of people called Jews , Israelites and history proves it.

Yes , Christians were also killed but the world knows ( I have footage of it ) it was the Jewish people that was the target and they are are still the target and will always be the target.

All you folks have done is argue salvation ( discuss really ) through faith in Christ which is a no brainer.


which as a Christian we should be able to understand.


God love all of you

Doug

PartisanOfChrist
May 30th 2008, 03:33 PM
The entire premise of the complaint is wrong ( from how I see it, with all due respect ). Yes Israel as a nation, is not a nation that proponents of Prophecy can be proud of ----based on the beliefs of it's populace as a whole.

However, Israel still has some history left to go thru, and has yet to fullfill all of God's purposes,

And, yet the most important aspect of the initial complaint of this post, seems to imply God is getting no glory from Israel,

Where the actual truth is, God allways deals with, ( in relation to the Glory God recieves, and the Love God is rightly shown ), God allways deals with the "Faithful Remnant,"

And there are Millions and Millions of Messianic Jews in the world today, including a large percentage of them in Israel.

And a Messianic Jew, is the same as a Jewish Christian ----because the definition of a Messianic Jew is the same as it's gentile believer counterpart

-----with the exception they prefer the name Messianic Jew, to witness to the world, that there are Jews in the world today who believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and are saved,

-----And that, for the sake of creating "Jealousy of Obedience," to show they are not lazy, or "Lax," in observance of the law, ( to provoke non believeing Jews to the Jealousy/witness of Christ ),

So that they observe the sacremental feasts of Israel, not as sacrements, because they know they do not need to observe them to be saved, but rather as "Commemerative feasts," to Honor how the feasts were shadows of Christ's glory, ----and they simply fullfill their version of the feasts, to commemerate the meaning of Christ's glory, and finnished work, on the cross ----as so many Christian books also do, in explaining the messianic meanings of the same feasts!!!!!!!!!!!

---------It's the saved remnant, that Israel can claim today as justification enough for their existence --------not even to mention, that they yet have much to fullfill yet, to fullfill all of God's purposes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

----And so, as I do understand Your premise, all the Christians, who are so proud of the lost Jews, and Secular State Of Israel,

-----that's their problem isn't it???????????? And in no way, does that diminish God's faithfull remnant of Messianic Believing Jews, ----who we should see as what's good about Israel, at this moment in history!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God Bless.

Mike.

wpm
May 30th 2008, 04:28 PM
I have heard this argument before. The church dating back to the time of Abraham and all believers have been addaded in at that time. The only reference I know of that eluds to that information is found in the book of Hebrews where it talks about entering into " His Rest " and the " Church in the wilderness ".
That Church was Jewish , it had nothing to do with Gentiles. I don't know but is this now church the same as the one in the wilderness?

I understand the church we now speak of is the one that Christ said He would build through the same method Peter was commended for " Blessed are you Simon Bar Jona, for flesh and blood did not reveal this to you but my father in heaven and upon this Rock I will build my Church. "
I think the word used there is the word meaning
" called out from amoung ".
I may be wrong but the word used in hebrews refering to the Church in the wilderness is a different word with a different understanding.

I don't pretend to know everything and I am teachable I hope.

I know getting our focus right is important. We must all keep the commandment Christ gave us , to " Go Ye into all the world ..... ect "

This is my aim and I believe God is going to finish what he started from the beginning and that is God would use Israel to make himself known through His defence of Israel. At no time has this been more important because you can go on the internet and veiw comments that were made by the enemies of Israel. It looks like pasages right out of the Old Testement concerning their statements when they say " let us cut them off , Let us drive them from the land , Let us wipe them out , let the name of Israel be mentioned no more ".

A web site you can go to is Memri.org and you will view comments from people who hate israel and the U S A. This site translates speaches made by people from the Mid East.

Surley you folks know how the Jewish people are hated and attacked daily and how they must keep watch or their enemies will over run them.
what part does the Israel you know of fit in with this problem? You call your self Israel but do you fit in with these people who are opressed constantly.

I will finish with this " they call us infidells " and hate us because

# 1 we are unbelievers ( of their faith )

# 2 WE support Israel ( they hate us for supporting Israel ) This is the only reason we pay such a high price for gas. We do use mideast oil

The moment we stop supporting israel our gas prices will come down.

Doug

It is not just that Acts 7: 38 refers to the Church of Israel in the Old Testament, it is the fact the word ecclesia (Church) is found 77 times in the Greek Old Testament - Septuagint (LXX) - referring to the assembly of the people of God. The writer of the Hebrews quotes and applies the word ecclesia, as it exactly reads in Psalm 22:22 in the Greek Septuagint, to the Old Testament saints, saying: “I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee” (Hebrews 2:12).

Psalm 22:22 reads, “I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.”

Paul

The Village Idiot
May 30th 2008, 06:36 PM
"...they observe the sacremental feasts of Israel, not as sacrements, because they know they do not need to observe them to be saved, but rather as 'Commemerative feasts'..."

Why the discomfort?


"if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law" (Ga 5:2-3).

wpm
May 30th 2008, 06:49 PM
Why the discomfort?

I agree.

Colossians 2:14 plainly declares of Jesus, “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

Ephesians 2:15 also says, “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.”

Paul

PartisanOfChrist
May 30th 2008, 08:12 PM
I had to edit the intro of My previous post in this thread to qualify: When I disagree with how things develop in Christianity, as things allways develop, with which we have to disagree with

-----I only intend to be harsh with events and views, etc.., and not with people for debating issues, as debate is never settled thru yelling, or mocking fellow debators -----not to mention a higher standard we as Christians should hold to,

----I belive My points can be yelled at, as long as it is not I who is being yelled at, and likewise I do unto others as I would have them do unto Me,

----And I forget Myself at times, for when I yell at a point, I don't mean to yell at the individual who makes the point ----and therefore, I have to watch sometimes how I put things,


-----And I found Myself, frustrated with the way Many fundamentalists, and Evangelicals, etc.., have treated Israel, as if they walk on water, each and every citizen of them, and likewise I also then get frustrated with backlashes against them, Because We as Christians have not done enough to police our own : We indeed should look inwards, at our own house 1st.


----And if God were to find only 10 righteous within Israel, then God would have his remnant within them, and has his purpose for the nation of Israel, inspite of how clearly far from perfect they are,


----And I am simply frustrated, with these dillusional attitudes so many Fundamentalist, to which other denominations, and sects, also hold them to be true ---and am frustrated with the Backlash, we sometimes feel we must have against their attitudes, ----because they are clearly wrong,


----And so I understand, the premise of this thread, being frustrated with the attitude that Israel is not the answer propheticaly to all of our dreams, when it is clearly a socialist, secular nation, with a variety of beliefs,

----But I was simply frustrated with, not wanting to "Throw out the baby with the bath water," in pointing out, 1st of all God has his millions upon, millions of Messianic Jews today, who know they are saved thru Christ Jesus alone -----and therefore God has his faithfull remnant!!!!!!!!!!!!

-----But even if there were only 10 faithfull Jews in all of Israel ( I think You know where I am getting this point from ), but even if there were only 10 righteous, or 5, or 1, or even 0, ----God still has a prophetic purpose for Israel, ----and if their rigtheous were zero ( which is not true ), ---then God would raise their righteous remnant when the time is right, according to God's own purpose, plans, and timing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-----And since their have been millions of Messianic Jews in the world for quite some time now, how do we know, that they may not be the very remnant that God said would be there?????????????????????

-----How do we claim to know so much all of the time, ---when we have to study, and debate, learn, and grow, ---and hopefully, help, instruct, and edify eachother,


----And thus in My frustration, with what could be read as "God has now righteous remnant in Israel today," ---simply because of the valid premise of this thread, of being frustrated with the attitute that the nation of Israel as a whole, seems to walk on water, when discussed by so many pastors, and lay believers today -----And thus in My frustration, I have seen, how My frustrated rejection, of the backlash which is occuring, because of our own sins, and incorect beliefs and attitudes, as the Body Of Christ,

----That I just realised My initial post in this thread, sounded harsh against the author of this post, who indeed has a valid point, of how Israel is treated as if it walks on water, where I personaly would not want to be anywhere near Israel, if a strong lightning storm started brewing, ---and I myself am 1/4 ( or a little less ) Jewish Myself.

I could call Myself a Christian, or a Messianic Jew, if I so choose, but they are more culturaly Jewsih than I am ---and they indeed do hold to all the Jewish feasts, for symbolic resons, to commemorate the finished work of Christ, for the sake of Jealousy for their non believing Jewish brothers and sisters, ---to show they are not lazy, but rather see the feasts, speak of Christ, and his finished work ---and thus I could join them in this, if I so wanted,

----As I am sure they are probably just as imperfect, as the rest of Us, and thus probably do make their own sets of errors, just as we do, ---but since I have never become one Myself, I can not see their errors, as clearly as I can see ours!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So I modified My 1st intro, as My frustration, blinded Me, as to how I wrote it.


May God Bless Us all, who Truly believe in Him, and Love Him,
but who also need help, in finding our Love, and common ground
with eachother, In Jesus's name I pray, Amen.

Mike.

wpm
May 30th 2008, 08:53 PM
And there are Millions and Millions of Messianic Jews in the world today, including a large percentage of them in Israel.

Can you back this up with evidence and statistics?


And a Messianic Jew, is the same as a Jewish Christian ----because the definition of a Messianic Jew is the same as it's gentile believer counterpart

Scripture knows of no such title.


So that they observe the sacremental feasts of Israel, not as sacrements, because they know they do not need to observe them to be saved, but rather as "Commemerative feasts," to Honor how the feasts were shadows of Christ's glory, ----and they simply fullfill their version of the feasts, to commemerate the meaning of Christ's glory, and finnished work, on the cross ----as so many Christian books also do, in explaining the messianic meanings of the same feasts!!!!!!!!!!!

Where is the command to do this?

Paul

9Marksfan
May 30th 2008, 10:10 PM
Of course I rejoice at all those Jews who come to Christ - but my concern is twofold - as a NATION - they are still rejecting Christ - so without them turning to Christ in their droves, there is no real cause to rejoice. Secondly, I wanted to challenge those who are Christian Zionists in any shape or form to realise that the ONLY thing that matters about the Jews to rejoice about is whether or not they have accepted Christ - the same goes with any individual, people or nation........

What do they think of Christ? That is all that matters......

PartisanOfChrist
May 30th 2008, 10:23 PM
OK, as I understand the facts, Jews who are citizens of Israel, had converted to becoming Messianic Jews, as the worldwide movement grow.

Finding acurate statistics on the internet, on certain subjects can be difficult, when "anything" you type in your searches, are "tagged," as promising to be a related result -----only to find so many countless results, which do not deliver what they promise ----and I have found even ask.com, does not allways search any beeter, but simply cuts back on percentage of some of the incorrectly tagged articles and sites. And I have not got the time to keep digging, into to subject right now.

Official figures take time to sift thru, and multiple sources to veryify,

But even with outdated articles aside:

1) the Messianic Jewish population officialy understood to exist is supposed to be about 1% of Israel's total population.

2) Israel, persecutes Messianic Jews by denying them citizenship, if they apply as such.

3) I believe, from a 1970 law in Israel, if one is a citizen of Israel, and becomes a messianic Jew, they can have their citizenship revoked, because Israel does not want them trying to convert others,

4) So therefore, in addition to the 1970 law persecuting Isralie converts to messianic Judism, ----it also leaves little incentive for them to all come foward, and admidt for the statistics that they have so converted ( and thus exist, as the underground Church in China has, etc.., etc.., etc.., )-----and thereofre real numbers would become difficult to find.

5) Of the now 6.72 Billion some odd people in the world today, 14% are believed to be Jews, in this world wide population, -----which would be some 940 million Jews world wide, and there are million of Messianic Jews world wide -----though Satan hates this, so the numbers seem to be underreported.

6) Many of the Jews, who have found salvation in Jesus, have simply become Christians, and I am sure it has become much easier for them this way, so what percentage were Messianic Jews, or should be called Messianic Jews is debatable ----Because Technically they can all be called Messianic Jews, even those who have simply joined Christian Churches, as a Messianic Jew, is simply the Jewish component of the Body of Christ, and it's all simply semantics,

7) Other than the number of Messianic Jews who live in, with underreporting and all, and who visit Israel ----The Isralie Supreme court, has recently ruled on cases in favor of Messianic Jews seeking Isralie citizenship, -----so the number will only increase.

8) So with numbers in flux, and soon to increase with recent supreme court decision, --and poorly available statistics to begin with, I stand by My assesment ---though numbers are difficult to verify ----and even when counting for what percentage of Messianic Jews are staying in Israel, as guests of their Israeli Messianic hosts ( this number would also fluctuate, as some arrive, while others leave ----just like fluctuating populations visiting any country, where so allowed to do so ).

9) But even, if worse, or least populace number, of about 1% of total population of Israel, officialy thought to be Messianic Jews, does God not have his 50 righteous living in Israel Today ( if only counting from among Messianic Jews ) ???????????????????


and 10) The N.T., clearly demonstrates thru a progressive revelation, how Peter, Paul, and other disciples, came to understand changes in their thinking to the point, where the N.T. tells us to not dispute over feasts and days, etc.., ----so therefore if it is not a stumbling block for Messianic Jews to engage in symbolic/commemerate feasts, for their interpretation of obedience of jealousy ---to help show other Jews, that they see the feasts, as symbolic of the finished work of Christ, -----then with all due respect, we have not got the right to challenge them on their obsevances,

----unless on Theological conviction, if we believed their non-sacremental feast observance, were of the sacremental type ---and we in our conscious do not believe in sacrements as being anything but salvation thru works ---which is how I view /and thus reject sacrements ---but again would have to debate that politely, if that were indeed the debate at hand.

May God Bless all of us who are Saved, and seek truth, and obedience,
even if we respectfuly disagree on what that means.

I know know one here yet, but with granting the benifit of the doubt to
whom I discource with, I in no way mean to imply "I know someone to not be saved," and therefore supposedly word My closing prayer, as a technical "dig" at someone,

So, with the previous premise, of praying for blessings for the saved, and for salvation for the unsaved would have to be worded differently ---but I allways, wich to imply salvation for the lost as well,

God Bless You,

and thank You for the oportunity to express, edify, and debate,

Mike.

PartisanOfChrist
May 30th 2008, 10:30 PM
Also I was in no way supporting the idea of rejoicing, over the secular, and socialist, state of Israel,

I was only pointing out, that it exists as part of God's overall plans, and therefore let God's plans evolve as God sees fit ----rather than hating Israel more than is her due, because so many Christians treat her, as if Israel walks on water ( and therefore we are not going to want to be guilty of the other extreme, just because other Christians may drive us crazy at times ---as I am sure I drive many of you crazy at times as well )


And lastly, if God finds even 1 righteous person in Israel, Christian, Jewish Christian, or Messianic Jew ----then lets let God decide, rather than hoping God will reign fire and brimstone down on them right away, is all I am saying.


Because even if they are pure evil, ( for argument sake ), then if they are their to fullfill God's purposes, and plans, then there they will remain, until God is ready to deal with them otherwise.

God Bless.

Mike.

wpm
May 30th 2008, 10:43 PM
5) Of the now 6.72 Billion some odd people in the world today, 14% are believed to be Jews, in this world wide population, -----which would be some 940 million Jews world wide, and there are million of Messianic Jews world wide -----though Satan hates this, so the numbers seem to be underreported.




Hold on here, your stats are way-off the beam. There is no where near that amount of Jews in the world.

According to the estimates for 2007 of the Jewish People Policy Planning Institute, the world population of Jews is 13.2 million.

So by your questionable '1% Messianics' stats, I would make that 132,000 Messianics. But you have no where even proved that, so I cannot accept these wild figures you are throwing around.

Paul

PartisanOfChrist
May 31st 2008, 12:33 AM
please don't make up supposed facts, or put words in My type I never typed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I made up no wild facts, and thus Your calling Me a liar, after I just did a search,

And what I wrote in the 1st posts was from memory, of statistics I had indeed seen and heard,

and as I said I can not be responsible for the statistics I had heard a few years back, since I do not know what percentage of the number of Messianic Jews have decided since then, that they were not getting the support or conversion rates they hoped for, and simply became Christians,

And if they became Christians, which yeilded them more of a support network, than retaining the title Messianic Jew, I still contend even if classified as "Christian," because of the Satanic world's hostility to the very classification of "Messianic Jew,"

and even Israel has been persecuting them, and passed laws going back to 1970 if I remember, which could be used to take their citizenship from them for becoming Messianic Jews, and had denied new aplications for citizenship, for being a Mesianic Jew, ---that I stated that their numbers in Israel are underreported -----as Christins worshiping secretly in China, etc..,

And I stated the official numbers, from what I could find, has an understood amount of 1% of Israels official population, and not 1% world population, as being Messianic Jews,

But I had understood from memory that number being musch higher, than what I see now as listed as official ----and therefore based on what I had heard in the past, in relation to their numbers and activity in Israel,

-----I was just carefull to point out, 1) I don't know if My previous statistics I had heard, included what percentage of visiting activity of other Messianic Jews in Israel, in support of them, 2) What percentage have gone underground in Israel to avoid having their citizenship revoked, and 3) What percentage gave up on such persecutions, and are now numbered in statistics as Christians, underground or otherwise, as they are persecuted in Israel, 4) I cited articles on the recent Israeli Supreme Court decision, to allow them citizenship, even if they are Messianic Jews ---and theirfore in the statistics, their numbers in Israel should rise again,

And Lastly, I know from memory, the large number of Messianic Jews in the Millions I had heard about, does in no way reflect on how few are officialy reported to exist in Israel, because I simply had not looked into it,

and had no idea just how bad their persecution in Israel was, ----when all they wanted was to be believers in Jesus, and have a home, ----because Jews, are finding less welcome in the world, than is given credit, and that is why, no matter how tough for them in Israel, so many Jews are indeed imigrating to that nation.

And lastly, I looked at more recent worldwide statistics than 2007, when their percentage worldwide may have been listed at 13.5% or so, but I saw a current estimate at about 14%,

But how do you get from that, that there are only 135,000 Messianic Jews worldwide??????????????, or expect Me to know, of the numbers I had heard, how many gave up on remaining Messianic Jews in Israel, and went underground, and simply joined into Christian denominations, for easier support, while remaining under the radar of Israel, and how many of them remained being Messianic Jews in Israel, but also underground?????????????

I gave numbers from memory, and did as You asked, and quickly looked it up, via search engine searches,

And stated, that I had no idea how bad their persecution in Israel had been since before and thru the 1970's till today, with the exception of their supreme court recently saying they could apply for, and remain as citizens, even if they are, or remain Messianic Jew, in title,

Because Messianic Jew, in title, is only a title, where they use their Jewishness to try and convert more Jews, and if a large percentage of them, saw it was not bearing the fruit they wished, and was also easier to simply join Christian churches, then how am I responsible for being purposely missleading, if their statistical status has changed????????

messianic Jews simply observe their feasts, to commemorate the finnished work of Christ, while aparently a large number of them simply became Christians instead, and saw their observence of the feasts, were not provoking the conversions they sought.

And in America, in a few states I was in at the time, I had personaly seen visiting Messianic Jews, visitng Local Christian Churches I happened to be visiting at the time.

But please do not put words in My mouth, because I can not pin down an official number of them in Israel, because of those who went underground due to persecution, and even statisticaly changed categories instead to Christian, while underground or otherwise.

The world is an evil place, and History, and statistics, are written by the politics of the day, in this evil world, and the Victors allways write the history.

Worship all the official statistics You want, but please do not put words in My mouth, when all I said was I could now only officialy confirm about 1% of Israel's population being Messianic jews ---and have no way of confirming underground numbers,

Nor tell Me, by looking up "Current" statistical data from 2008, that has a world population of about 6.72+ Billion people, and about 14% Jews worldwide, up from a lower percentage from 1990 statistics, showing a steady growth, which obviously outpaced your 2007 13% figures.

PartisanOfChrist
May 31st 2008, 12:48 AM
You twisted 2 sets of statistics I listed:

1) 6.72+ Billion people in the world today, with 14% estimate being Jews = 940+Million worldwide ( 2008 numbers )

2) I stated I had no idea just how bad their persecution in Israel had been, including revoking of and denying aplications for citizenship, so I don't know what percentage went underground.

3) I stated that, I also had no idea, since the numbers I heard years ago, what percentage, saw no fruit of conversion of fellow Jews in the numbers they were looking for, and persecution, and so went underground, and also simply joined Christian denominations, and thereofore are no longer listed in statistics as messianic jews.

4) Due to persecution, I could only find an official estimate of about 1% of them as citizens in Israel today ( still statistics and history are written by governments, governments who were the victors of conflicts, and agencies such as the U.N., or private statistic gathering institutions ----which can still be jaded by the evils of the world, and as the world is in Satan's power ----I do not know what percentage of their true number, may be squelched, thru prejudice, pure evil, jaded categories, or otherwise )

5) I also stated that Israel's supreme court, as I found in articles, has recently decided to allow them citizenship, unless that decision gets reversed again ----and if it does not get reversed, then their numbers in Israel should go back up again, ---once those who are currently denied, or are underground, can test the waters, so to speak.

6) And the entire premise of this entire thread, has nothing to do with what percentage of Jews in Israel are Messianic, or even if I were wrong with My numbers, ----But rather about God's purpose and will for the nation of Israel, and how many Christians treat the secular huminist and socalist state of Israel as if it walks on water, just becuase it exists, while at the same time we have to ask are we allowed to hate it's existence, simply because others worship it's existence?????????

7) To which I deffered, even if their were only 1 righteous man in Israel today, is that not God's business, unless You want to call for fire and brimstone to be called down upon them, in which case ----argue Your point with God, and God's will ---and not Me.

The Village Idiot
May 31st 2008, 02:47 AM
[QUOTE] "...if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" (Ga 3:29).


"...we are the real circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh" (Ph 3:3). /QUOTE]

Abraham's offspring and the inheritors of the promise are those who put their trust in Jesus Christ. They are the real circumcision, which means taht those who trust in lineage or Christless religion are not. This isn't about hating anyone; but it is about loving Jesus Christ.

Perhaps it is time that we face honestly what many suspect: this perennial fascination with an ideology of blood, race and soil persists because like those addressed in the book of Hebrews, a sizable faction of today's church teeters on the brink of defection from Christianity to Judaism.

wpm
May 31st 2008, 03:43 AM
please don't make up supposed facts, or put words in My type I never typed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I made up no wild facts, and thus Your calling Me a liar, after I just did a search,

And what I wrote in the 1st posts was from memory, of statistics I had indeed seen and heard,

and as I said I can not be responsible for the statistics I had heard a few years back, since I do not know what percentage of the number of Messianic Jews have decided since then, that they were not getting the support or conversion rates they hoped for, and simply became Christians,

And if they became Christians, which yeilded them more of a support network, than retaining the title Messianic Jew, I still contend even if classified as "Christian," because of the Satanic world's hostility to the very classification of "Messianic Jew,"

and even Israel has been persecuting them, and passed laws going back to 1970 if I remember, which could be used to take their citizenship from them for becoming Messianic Jews, and had denied new aplications for citizenship, for being a Mesianic Jew, ---that I stated that their numbers in Israel are underreported -----as Christins worshiping secretly in China, etc..,

And I stated the official numbers, from what I could find, has an understood amount of 1% of Israels official population, and not 1% world population, as being Messianic Jews,

But I had understood from memory that number being musch higher, than what I see now as listed as official ----and therefore based on what I had heard in the past, in relation to their numbers and activity in Israel,

-----I was just carefull to point out, 1) I don't know if My previous statistics I had heard, included what percentage of visiting activity of other Messianic Jews in Israel, in support of them, 2) What percentage have gone underground in Israel to avoid having their citizenship revoked, and 3) What percentage gave up on such persecutions, and are now numbered in statistics as Christians, underground or otherwise, as they are persecuted in Israel, 4) I cited articles on the recent Israeli Supreme Court decision, to allow them citizenship, even if they are Messianic Jews ---and theirfore in the statistics, their numbers in Israel should rise again,

And Lastly, I know from memory, the large number of Messianic Jews in the Millions I had heard about, does in no way reflect on how few are officialy reported to exist in Israel, because I simply had not looked into it,

and had no idea just how bad their persecution in Israel was, ----when all they wanted was to be believers in Jesus, and have a home, ----because Jews, are finding less welcome in the world, than is given credit, and that is why, no matter how tough for them in Israel, so many Jews are indeed imigrating to that nation.

And lastly, I looked at more recent worldwide statistics than 2007, when their percentage worldwide may have been listed at 13.5% or so, but I saw a current estimate at about 14%,

But how do you get from that, that there are only 135,000 Messianic Jews worldwide??????????????, or expect Me to know, of the numbers I had heard, how many gave up on remaining Messianic Jews in Israel, and went underground, and simply joined into Christian denominations, for easier support, while remaining under the radar of Israel, and how many of them remained being Messianic Jews in Israel, but also underground?????????????

I gave numbers from memory, and did as You asked, and quickly looked it up, via search engine searches,

And stated, that I had no idea how bad their persecution in Israel had been since before and thru the 1970's till today, with the exception of their supreme court recently saying they could apply for, and remain as citizens, even if they are, or remain Messianic Jew, in title,

Because Messianic Jew, in title, is only a title, where they use their Jewishness to try and convert more Jews, and if a large percentage of them, saw it was not bearing the fruit they wished, and was also easier to simply join Christian churches, then how am I responsible for being purposely missleading, if their statistical status has changed????????

messianic Jews simply observe their feasts, to commemorate the finnished work of Christ, while aparently a large number of them simply became Christians instead, and saw their observence of the feasts, were not provoking the conversions they sought.

And in America, in a few states I was in at the time, I had personaly seen visiting Messianic Jews, visitng Local Christian Churches I happened to be visiting at the time.

But please do not put words in My mouth, because I can not pin down an official number of them in Israel, because of those who went underground due to persecution, and even statisticaly changed categories instead to Christian, while underground or otherwise.

The world is an evil place, and History, and statistics, are written by the politics of the day, in this evil world, and the Victors allways write the history.

Worship all the official statistics You want, but please do not put words in My mouth, when all I said was I could now only officialy confirm about 1% of Israel's population being Messianic jews ---and have no way of confirming underground numbers,

Nor tell Me, by looking up "Current" statistical data from 2008, that has a world population of about 6.72+ Billion people, and about 14% Jews worldwide, up from a lower percentage from 1990 statistics, showing a steady growth, which obviously outpaced your 2007 13% figures.


Remember, you said:



there are Millions and Millions of Messianic Jews in the world today, including a large percentage of them in Israel.

1% of Isreal's population is not even close to "millions and millions" as you allege. According to figures released by the Central Bureau of Statistics (CBS) the population of Isreal is 7,282,000. Some 5,499,000 of the population (75.5 percent) are Jews, 1,461,000 (20.1%) are Arabs. 1% of Jews would be 54,990. Way short of your "millions and million."

I challenged your assertion because I know of no one who makes such wild claims. I asked: "Can you back this up with evidence and statistics?"

You then claimed as support:


5) Of the now 6.72 Billion some odd people in the world today, 14% are believed to be Jews, in this world wide population, -----which would be some 940 million Jews world wide, and there are million of Messianic Jews world wide -----though Satan hates this, so the numbers seem to be underreported.

This is what I challenged.

I am simply saying your stats are unsafe. They aren't even close to reality. My issue is not the persecution of the true Church in Israel, we all know that Israel is subjugating Christians. It is your contention that there are 940 million Jews world wide 9.4 million of which are Messianics. This is just crazy. That is what I am questioning.

I have been to Israel several times, on-the-ground-evidence proves there are more Christians among the Arabs than the Jews. I have even preached in Israel. I don't know where these claims come from.

Paul

PartisanOfChrist
May 31st 2008, 04:53 AM
Well You can spin Your acusations again. But again I state they are seperate issues, because I heard about the "Millions" of Messianic Jews, worldwide years ago, ---which I did not think was relavent, and did not mention.

I just quoted numbers from memory. I had been in different states. I have lived in Omaha Nebraska, and attended a Independant Fundamentalist Bible Baptist Church there, who saw a lot of visitors from Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska. Offutt, is in the dead center of the country, and therefore used to be the base from which SAC was based, and would send out it's nuclear armed bombers. However, over time SAC, was no longer stationed there,

But they have a Base, 10 or more stories beneath the base, which is the home of "Looking Glass," which around the clock every 3 minutes launces, and lands specialy modified c130's I believe ---which can remote launch all of our nukes, if needed.


When I lived In N.J. previously to moving to Nebraska, I had a friend who lived in N.Y.C., who was a Christian, like Me, who I would visit, and who was very interested in Messianic Jews, and I visited a few church services with Him, where guest Messianic Jews, would come and Speak, and Teach, and preach, etc..,

As well as to all the Christian Radio I used to watch, and some stuff I have seen on cable.

I do not remember, nor should I have to, where I heard the Statistics, but I heard it discussed more than once, I believe on Christian radio, as well as cable programs, abou the Church, and Israel, and mentioning Messianic Jews,


But now aparently, I have just learned of how badly they have been persecuted By Israel, for decades now, and of a specific law in 1970, used to strip citizenship from Messianic Jewish converts, etc.., all of which I did not know.

The visiting Messianic Jews I have met, were all very upbeat, and onfire for Jesus, and didn't burden Me, with how tough it was for them, so I did not know.

Aparently also, many also gave up on the movement for failures, to prvoke more converts thru Jealousy, thru observing feasts commemoritively, only -----and were probably, allways accused of being sacramentalists, and therefore simple folded into the Christian Body, as Christians themselves,

As well, as I now do not know how many are also underground, and all.


I thought I rememberd during the height, which is apparently, when I heard the statisics, but don't remeber exactely, but thought I remembered something about 20 million of them, and 2 million of them on some other related thing,

And I may have remembered 2 million of them in the U.S., or involved in trying to help in Israel, and they visit their, even though as citizens they are being weeded out????????

and maybee they are successfuly being weeded out so badly, that the movement is changing, due to lack of support, and they are being absorbed into the Body Of Christ, in mainstream Christian demoninations??????????????

I don't remember, other than something to the effect, of their activity in Israel, visitng, but don't know what percentage visit, and what percentage live there.


So when I found out about these persecutions, and I know from expereinece how difficult sometimes to find just what your looking for on the internet -----especialy since I know I am being persecuted by the world system, which has attempted to murder Me, and even though this thorn in My flesh leaves Me wouned and vulnerable, and they want to rip Me fully into their gnostic fold, because they know I know too much, is all ---because they are full of crap with their claims of love and fellowship and all, and I just quote Isaiah 66:3-5 back to them, especialy Isaiah 66:5,

but be that as it may, I am alos of very poor health, and as such do not organize My thoughts/as can be seen in My posting, very well.

But inspite all of this,

I was quite clear, and told You:

1) I found out about the depth of their persecution, and how the movment may be dying out to a large extent due to lack of support, and persecution, with many folding into mainstream Christian denominations,

2) However, not knowing how many may have converted, since the years I heard the numbers, and how many may be underground, and how many may be underreported in the official statistics in Israel, with their calim officialy of about 1% ( a secret they don't want you to know about, because they hate them, as enemies of Judiasm ),

and 3) That My world wide number of "Millions and Millions," seems to still be true, but not in the 10's of Millions, I thought I remembered from years ago, and I never claimed that now ----and still think world wide that a few million of them still exist, even in statistics, with thousands of Messianic jewish Congregations, still existing worldwide,


4)But why Do You twist, when I said I still believe their to be Millions of them worldwdie, with the official ( and tainted estimite ) of 1% of Israel's population, after all these years of persecution, still being Messianic Jewish citizens of Israel,

And I don't remember if the millions I heard about in Israel, at the time, were visiting, in support of trying to help them or what, or if their numbers have decreased in that nation that badly.

5) And I used new statistics from 2008, which currently sees worldwide Jewish population to be at 14%, as opposed to 13.5% in 2007 ---and You seemed to do everything to call Me a Liar ----for using more recent numbers than Yours,

6) And also The official ( and like I said probably under reported number of them in Israel ), has nothing to do with their still being a few million of them worldwide????????????????????????

A) You again twist things around to imply I did not answer 2 seperate questions, which I did, and B) try and twist/blend different numbers, like the percentage of then in Israel ---as My claim to how many of them are in the world???????????????????? Which I did not do.


*********So quite frankly, with all due respect, I have answed your false twisting of what I have said, and did indeed look up, because I briefly looked to see if I could find an acurate number of them worldwide, but still not having finnished doing so, because what I found seemed to state several thousand congregations world wide, Israel's supreme court ruling in their favor, about 1% estimated for Israel, etc..,

and in no way ignored that number, but rather quoted on the more concrete things I did find,


******And therefore, with answering Your distractions from the actual thread for the last time, I have concluded, with all due respect, that I do not like You in the least bit, and do not care what You think, on any subject whatsoever, even when You may by accident ( in My estimation of You ), be correct.

Now, I do not know if You are accurate on other things to be fair, but also to be fair, I can not help feeling deep inside, that I do not believe so, and have no interest in finding out.

*********I am not being overly rude, the question of Your, or My salvation, or name calling is not being brought up, I just trutfully don't like You.

That does not mean, I can not say God Bless You, with the assumption, until I know otherwise, that You are saved, but I doubt I will read enough of Your stuff to so conclude, and even if I did conclude so, would not be so rude as to start a shouting type over it,

************I feel I should have My right, with all due respect, to not like You int the least, and likewise, You are perfectly free to not like, or like whomever You wish.

God Bless.

And good day.

and P.S., what's crazy 1) that I was shown a current world population that said there are 6.72+ Billion people in the world, and then listed 14% Jewish, and if it were a mistake that should have said 1.4%, or even 2/10th's of one percent -----that was the fault of the statistics site, somehow misunderstanding My query, so I posted what they said -----because I have just found 13.5 million Jews for 2000, and then other searches show that the statistic then probably should have been worded that 14 million is their percentage worldwide, and thereofre I see where that sites error in how it was listed ------------so thereofre I am not responsible for what It meant to say, because I have not looked it up previously, and therefore 14 million world wide, or .14% is what they meant to say.

and if there are 2 million of them world wide, which I just saw that as as estimate, then the 20 million I remember years ago, must have been a number involved in supporting them, I had heard or remembered it worng at the time, ---which would have been more in line with the 2 million figure I do remember hearing at the time in relation to them, in which case, it's a static situation,

but just because a site reported 14%, when it should have said .14%, or 14 million as their percentage of world population ---does not make Me responsible for their error, and I will when I have time, for My own amusment double check the 2 million number I just ran across, in which case My error in memory of 2 million, as opposed to millions and millions, is not such a crazy mistake, to justify You twisting My numbers into, 1% of those found in Isreal, means the thousands of their congregations worldwide, means none of them can exist outside of Israel???????????????

So I still see the 2 million number, will check it out ----but the error in My memory, and the incorrect site listing of the number next to the %-sign, to lead to that gross error in number ------in no way gives You the right to twist My words, because of 1 bad number I now see I was given, and 1 bad memory I now see I had ( because the 20 million, I heard wrong, as to what it meant, such as something they were involved in, and not just of their numbers, or I multiplied it by 10 in My hearing, or memory )

But I amde nothing up, because of one bad memory, and one bad listing, does not give You the right to say I did.

An error on My part, and on the part of the way a site listed something, constitues 2 errors ----and not a lie.


And only 1 of the numbers was "Crazy," based on how the site listed it, ----so everything I said was not crazy, but only 1 number was crazy, thru no fault of My own, and 1 number was only multiplied by 10, a minor error, which I can not deconstruct ----because 20 million may have been some paryer fellowship, or something for the Messianic Jews in Israel, and not mean 20 million Messianic Jews ( My error, in hearing or memory, I lay calim too ).

And I can not help it if the one listing said 1% of the population of israel, not 1% of the Jews in Israel ------so I will check that out, because if it was also listed wrong, that is not my fault it said 1% of the population on Israel, and not 1% of the poulation of Jews in Israel.

I did some quick searches, which only showed 1 error I can see so far ----with no proof of the number of errors You claim,

because 1 error was mine, and had nothing to do with the error the search produced ----and thereofre 20 million, may have been involved in a prayer event with eachother, for Israel, the 2 million world wide still seems it may be acurate, I will check that one,

but 1 error on My memory, and 1 on a web site listing ----then goes back to before I became angry with what You said,

because technicaly, because of My one numerical memory/error ----two things were then in error by implication in My previous posts, because millions and millions, may be only 2 million, and therefore the 2 million alone in Israel, was a prayer event, worldwide no doubt, and thereofre not in Israel, and I also did not know Israel's population, or world Jewish population, is still as low as 13.5 to 14 million worldwide. That's not a lot of people considering,

But all that shows, is I have never been interested in that statistic before, becuase I simply don't care how many there are -----which is a seperate issue of how people should be treated.

I remembered ( must have been ), a 20 million person prayer event, and 2 million Messianic Jews ----in wrong context ---and thus caused Myself to have two errors in My memory by a magnitude of 10, related to messianic Jews,

And My errors, in the 1st few posts, all stemmed for 2 order of 10 magnitiude errors in My memory ( because I still think the 20 million, did mean somethnig???? ), and I by acident transfered their implications,

And 1 error, came from the net,

But I did not lie ----nor would I expect to get away with such a lie, because facts can not back it up?????????? And the other Jewish statistic site, never said 1% of Jews, but 1% of the population of Israel, so if they were in error ----I again did not lie, if things are listed poorly

quiet dove
May 31st 2008, 05:21 AM
It seems that all that most any of us can do is google for the statistics and hope the information provided is accurate. I mean even if the numbers are off, not a reason to get ruffled about it as I do not think any one is trying to intentionally skew the facts. Isn't the point of discussion to discuss and to sort through information and help each other reach an accurate conclusion?

Besides, what does how many Jews their are in the world have to do with whether or not they are rejecting Christ? And how does getting ruffled over the exact number get any of them saved?

PartisanOfChrist
May 31st 2008, 07:35 AM
Look I don't want to be angry with You, so I wan't to calm down about it.

I never lied. I had not interest into looking into Jewish population statistics, and therefore the 20 million I remembered mush ave been a prayer event or something like it I remembered, involving Messianic Jews, and then the number of 2 Million Messianic Jews worldwide as I remember now, must have been toatl, and not just 2 million I heard about in some passing event ----and I displaced portions of these memories.

So, I will look into it, and still think the 2 million was acurate, inspite of the bad decimal point the one statistics site had. It may infact have had a point-14%, instead of 14%, with such a faint period, I did not see the existence of it as a decimal point,

I had no idea the Jewish world population never recovered after WW II, because only 14 million worldwide is not a lot, and their percentage in the U.S. is pretty hi, so I see them all over the place, all the time here in the Tri-State area.


But My memory, causing Me to then shift 2 numbers over by a magnitude of 10 ( by displacing a 20 million person event/with it being remembered as 20 million of them ------and since their worldwide numbers are so low, it's a good thing I did not bring that number up ), and only assumed, just incase I had remembered the 20 million wrong, because I could not remember the exact context, that I deffered back to the 2 million I did remember ----and only increased that by a factor of about 2,

but the overall effect, had Me multiplying then some details by 10, given the poor way I saw facts listed.

So I am sorry, I don't want to be angry with You, just because I never cared about their statistics, and thus not on;y remembered wrong, but did not raise any red flags over the 14%, instead of point-14% ---must be what happened. And I had no idea their numbers are so dismal percentage wise, still, after so long after WW II.

So I want to calm down, and not be angry with You personaly, as it seems You had compounded My errors by misquoting Me, or simply not trusting anything I said, and inacurately lumped My statements together, because of the obvious errors ----because You simply did not scrutinize what You said very closely, since You thought I was so wrong.

So all that aside, I don't ant to fight with You personaly, because I am so devistated right now, that i don't want to be sensitive enough to be baited, by My state of mind, into letting Myself get all worked up.

Apart from the fact that i believe the entire world, is obviously been secretly taken over by the world system of Gnosticim, as was established as the enemies world system of lies, as the one world beast system, which I now believe has completely won.

When I became a Christian, I can now see, I beleive, everything including all of Christianity has been taken over by it, and likewise it tried to plant it's thorn in My side, and tried to destroy Me. And I can not defeat it, and so tried to manipulate what circumstances I could, to expose, and defeat it, but it's no good.

Because the entire world, secretly, and otherwise, holds on purpose to 2 very narrow definitions, to secretly destroy the world, 1) that the word "flesh," can only mean the physical body, instaed of evil nature of the entire human being as well, and thus their sin nature, and 2 ) to hate the world, and have no love of the world, and the world system, can only mean to hate the physical world -----instead of to hate the world, and the things of the world, and the world system ---means it's "elemental" gnostic nature, of anti-physical qabbalistic worlds, which is supposed to be "spirit," and "kingdom of heaven/God," --even though with a renewed mind, and renewed inner man of the heart ---the kingdom of heaven resided within Us, for those who are saved -----but the world treats that as an impossibility, unless one abandons the physical /though secretly so,

and it becomes about "places," and 'things," ---which are then substituted for the "personal relationship/(s)" with God, and the various indwellings of God's spirit, etc.., ---and lacks the "preservation," of ones body, as ones temple,

and to love being obedient, within the physical world, and thus holding onto it ----is not the same thing as loving the world, and world system, because the world is only a bunch of water, and rocks and dirt ----but it's supposed to be our water, and rocks, and dirt, ---while we wait for the new heavens, and the new earth ----and ofr the here and now, our renewed heart, is our new Jerusalem, and our Bodies are our temples, for now!!!!!!!!!!!!

And as such, this supposed inner man, which is the flesh nature/enemy, has been able, via the thorn, ---and 00.00% support from the Body of Christ to stand in the truth, has been trying to rip Me apart. And I can quote Isaiah 66:3-5, or whatever I want at them, becuase I know what they are up to, to no avail whatsoever.

And because I despise the worlds gnosticism, this thorn, and flesh, pretending to be the true renewed inner man, along with the Body Of Christ, and the enemy ( all of them together in My opinion ), are trying to kill Me off ----so they can claim to see My liberation, and Joy, and all,

But I have already been born again, which does not mean to abandon the physical world for higher places /planes of existance, or whatever ---so back off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,

And My health is attacked horribly, for years and years now, and I am persecuted horribly on Jobs, to the point becuse I hate their gnosticism, and only think angry thoughts in My head at them, to their attacks, and system, ----becasue it is spiritualy illegal, and they should not be able to read My thoughts, or intentions, ----because I will never let them take My mind,

But, I hate them, and will not let them take Me, so they simply make up lies, and fasle accusations, and charges, and drive Me from jobs, and fire Me,

And so I will never again be able to find a Job, because they never stop persecuting Me, not to mention My health, And therefore their is no way for Me to survive, because I am incapable of finding work, in this evil world,

And I keep thinking I may be able to say something within Christinaity, to make someone stand up for the truth, but I have no faith in Christianity anymore.

I have faith in God, and Christ, but not in the so called body of believers, who are no friends of mine, inspite what they say,

And while I am still alive, because with My health, and no means to support Myself, ever again, because they think i am a wounded animal, which they think they own ---they are mistaken, because I despise them all,

Love has to be based on the truth, You have to Love God in truth, and God's will in truth, and God's character in truth ---before that can be twisted into their "sappy" emotional, you have to love them no matter what, even if they refuse to abide in the truth, and thus accept the abomination of desolation into their very own bodies, their very own temples, ---and then they wonder why things get so bad upon the earth, after having surrendered all authority to the enemy ---so He can rebuild a temple in Jerusalem, and do the same in it, after he has already done so in their very lives!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And, all I want to do, instead of fight in debate ( as calling names in cyberspace, debates, and such solves nothing ---so I would rather bow out, as I can't seem to want to continue ),

And I have been contemplating, finding all the anything goes secular blogs only, and expalin how 100% of Christianity, without exception has sold out -------because I never see any suport 00.00% of it, and only see those who wish to pounce upon Me, because of their inward coruption, and sensuality, and greed -----and they call that fellowship, and love.

i don't see how they use sensuality, and sappy emotional neediness, and even create racism, to pretend they have come to eliminate it, because "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom," and after as "Nicolations," and other spiritualy dead heirarchies, they use racism, and sexism, etc.., to plant weeds, and destruction, so they can falsely claim they have come to put an end to all of that, and follow the bad shephard of the bookof Zechariah, who rips off the hoofs of it's sheep, -----and devestates all truth, while pretending to be Christ,

I will never, love, accept, or like them, and can have no love or fellowship with hell ---even if they wish to call me mean, or a bastard, or whatever, as they do not love the truth.

If I am to be destroyed by the world, I only want death, or deliverance from them ----but never firendship with any of them, because of what they have become.

And if there is a remnant, who has no idea what I am talking about, then praise God, there is still some truth left somewhere, and I would ask those then, who have no idea what I am talking about ----because they have maintained their innocence, and their garments, to pray for My deliverance, or death,

because being ripped between worlds, just enough, so everyone can rip at Me, and take shots at Me -----while I am not deep enough, to actualy exist in tehir world, where I might have been able to correct choices, and take actions for truth, and trun from ways, which I do not walk in, in the 1st place, to trun from,

because it is only the illusion, of the flesh nature pretending to be Me, and they want Me to die into their arms, and want to believe it is Me, because He seems so nice to them???????????, whereas it can't be Me, truly, because I could never love them so for their wanton cruelty of lies, and their destructions!!!!!!!!!!!!!


So being ripped just enough into their grasp, gives them the excuse to pretend I am "luke warm," or "luke warm enough," on purpose, or something, and so they rip at Me, as in Isaiah 66:5, in relation to Isaiah 66:3-5, because they think I want to become swines blood, or incence like they have become.

So I pray for deliverance, or the grave I don't care which ---because just to be able to have a job again, any job, where I can support Myself, without persecution beyond what I can handle ---because they can all burn in hell, if they think I will ever support their gnostic ways.

Love, has to be love of the truth 1st, and I would rather face the firing squad, or the grave, before I would desire anything other than for them to burn in Hell, for refusing to stop trying to torture Me continualy, with their Gnostic ways ---as if I participate in their abominations with them, where they turn men into women, and women into parasites, even though they see it as the other way around. I do pray if they will recieve salvation, and even deliverance from being "graves people walk over unawares," for those who Believed in God, and then turned to these evil ways ----and I don't mind praying for them as they need it, ---but that does not obligate Me in loving their evil ways, and it does not obligate Me to wish them God spped on their evil, by not being righteously angry with them ( based on knowing they are wrong, every time they try and back Me into a corner, which is all of the time ), and therefore My only defence against their open attacks, in thinking hatefull wishing they were dead for not leaving Me alone, is merely defending Myself from them, because they are simply Hell-Hounds, etc.., ----and they have no right to try and "read" me in anyway other than to get the message that I don't want their evil ways and back off ----I don't know how they think they know, but since they have tried to turn me into a "Tare," like them -----hopefully that does let this mask/flesh nature pretending to be Me, to draw Me to them ---allows it to fight back????????????? I don't know if I gain ground, but when hell hounds are ripping at You ----it's hard to think anything is fair, other than why can't I die, or why can't they die ------because I will allways hate their evil ways.

But when they are not in My face, I have had to speak to God, the deal I made to God, hoping God will at least respect the deal, which is: I prayed that God be able to filter all I think and feel, so I can hate them while they attack Me, and yet if hate-thought, would somehow hurt them, counter to God's desire ---incase God has one who needs a calmer way to be reached, then I want God to do as He wills, and not mine ---because I also pray God pours all His wrath upon them for attacking Me, and also know they attack everyone who is not one of them ---and also leave that up to God, on whom He feels needs that,

So in a way I try to make it about letting God take care of the forgiving part for Me, if God sees they need it, in God's bigger ability to judge the situation than I ( obviously God knows everything, and we know nothing ), so that if My anger ---is the only thing that lets Me keep My sanity, when they attack Me -----I don't want to neglect praying for them ----or neglect letting God take car of them, for good or ill, as God sees fit --when I am too angry to deal calmly with them ----and thus I believe that the deal I spoke to God, to surrender My anger and wrath to God, in such a way, as it keeps Me sane, when they attack ----but not to neglect forgiving them in the bigger picture, and praying for them ---because I believe they deserve the wrath of God, and hope God will take care of how God sees the bigger picture, ---but when I am hurting ( almost all of the time ), because the world is addicted to "Love," which is not real Love ----and deep inside I believe they know better, because the N.T. teaches in the end, most will be lovers of themselves ----because they know they are only looking out for their own greedy evil ways, while playing the game of being spiritual vampire and wearwolf "Peace-mongers:" who say "peace, peace ---and suddenly destruction comes upon them," because their "peace" is destruction, and they get what they deserve!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Peace-Mongers," instead of truth seekers, are the most evil one can be, and they kill Me constantly, but wont finnish Me off. they have just enough power /influence to continualy-kill Me, in painfull ways, physicaly, mentaly, etc.., ----but they won't finnish Me off ----because they are only tenderizing Me, like a chew toy ( because they allways hope I will become one of them ), and they can take their abomination of desolation they call peace, and burn in God's wrath I pray, until they stop trying to chew Me up ----but I also allways hope they will get saved for real ---especialy the ones who already think they are. It is difficult praying for them, and not wanting to be their spiritual-lies chew toy, or peace-toy, for their false-peace -----praying for anyone is not the hard part, and praying for their deliverance is not hard, but surving, half killed by them, and constantly being attacked by them is!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They have broken Me apart, and it is difficult at times keeping My sanity, if it were not for God, because it is so unfair I can't just drop dead, or be delivered from years, and years, and years of attacks. And being able to have My health, and a Job would be nice. They let Me get hired, torture Me with their evil ways, get pissed that I wont accept the mark of the beast ( because the beast is all they are ), and then trump up performance, or other charges, and get rid of Me. So I have major health issues they attack Me with, let those remain calm enough so I can work, so they can tear Me up, and then get rid of Me, because I'll never join them!!!!!!!!!!!!! So I don't see how I'll ever be able to work again??????????? I can't see how, anything but 100% of Christianity has been taken over by them, because the kingdom of heaven is like three pecks of meal, which leaven was introduced into, until the whole lump becomes leavened. I am upset right now, but from memory, these outward coppies of the true kingdom of heaven, is barely exists in the world today, with the saint who are being killed crying out for Judgement by God, ---and the outward fake copy of the true kingdom, I believe is what Jesus meant ---with all of his negative parables about the Kingdom: the good, refers to the true Kingdom, within the renewed heart, and all the negative things Jesus said about the kingdom, is about their fake one, which is more of a place, where their fake selves /and fake hearts, etc.., reside, following the false Christ, who rips off the hoofs of the sheep ( of Zacheriah I believe ---I'm a bit upset right now ), but they live in hell, and call it heaven.

PartisanOfChrist
May 31st 2008, 07:20 PM
I have studied many subjects, and tried My best to help, but I must admidt world statistics, was never anything I cared about.

I am, now having looked at it, am still a little surprised that the worldwide Jewish population, has increased so slowly since WW II, while so many other ethinc groups have realy been allowed to flower/explode, but that's another issue.

I can even see, how when I did a quick search, and found the 14% of world population listed, that they used a font faint enough with it's punctuation, that I did not see a decimal point that should have been there ( assuming they did include it ---which I don't doubt they did ), and then can ask why such faint fonts, don't automaticaly produce bold period's, at the very least, when numbers are involved, ---and the bold periods should at least be available for "formula's," where they can use Office type documents, that use "cells," to calculate formula's, and then print the result into their web documents, with the Boldface period, so the decimal point sticks out better???????

But if I cared even one little bit about ethnic world statistics data, I should have seen it must have been .14%, by there calculations,

But now that I have looked into it, I am still amazed at the range of guessing, which seems to show Jewish world population to be between 9.8+, to 13.5+, to 14 million, worldwide. That's quite a large range of guessing, since the scale is in the millions.


But inspite of the mistake of decimal points one can not see for being too faint, and My error, of probably hearing it on either Christian Prophetic broadcast, segment on Messianic Jews, or Christian Radio broadcast on same, and just remember a "20 Million," number, if I recal correctly, which must have been some worldwide prayer intercession, or something along those lines -----and now remembered about hearing of a worldwide Messianic Jewsih population of 2 Million ( years ago ), and am supposed to remember which Christian source I heard it from??????????, especialy with the various Church guest services, and services I attended, and all of the Christian talk radio ( mainly sermon radio shows ), I listened to, and cable TV, and TV Christian shows /and Channels, I have been able to listen to, ---not even mentioning all the Christian books I purchased, and studdied, etc.., Not to mention having to live life, etc..,

And I remebered various conversations I had had, and other things I did to do My part, etc.., I remember one conversation I had in a Christian book store, when I was sharing, ( and trying to do My part to help the body of Christ, in that way also ), Where I related how the world works, to mock, and undermine Christianity, including all aspects of the secular, and corporate world ----and how it is not allways the fault of a corporation per sey, but rather evil individuals within that particular corporation, just as evil indivduals are everywhere, including leadership roles in our Churches, and so ( of cource I was not worried in a conversation, about making false claims ---but My premise was that of an Allegation, in which I did not know who to blame specificaly, and so I relate what I said in the same way I expressed it back then ). And I said that Popular Culture is used to mock and undermine Christianity, even if we do not know whom, within a particular corporation intended what, and I then gave this example: I said how Paul had written that "The Mystery of Lawlessness," and "The Mystery of Iniquity," "Doth already work," ( KJV references, as I remember how they were worded ), ---and that The Bubwieser corporation, in a collective example of this mocking, 1) distributes their beer thru "The Lawless Distribution Co," < if I remember >, and that that then mocks "The Mystery Of Lawlessness," and that their spokesmen are 3 frogs ( The Three frogs, are mocking the three frogs/ unclean Spirits of The Beast, The False Prophet, and the AntiChrist in Revelation ), ---and how the 3 frogs in trun sound out BUD--WEIS---ER, which can also be taken to mean BUD ( Pot ) will make you Wiser, or even Weiser ----as in Samuel Weiser Books, one of the worlds largest occult book publishers. And I pointed out how Pot, is a powerfull Hallucinogen, which is almost never presented as one ----because spiritualy it is very powerfull, and the world likes to by clandestine means, take people into pot trips into cartoon, and nightmare world hallucinations, if they know the time ir rigth to pounce on someone, and murder their mind ---so as to take them prisoner in hell ( see My response at end of "The Beatles," thread, in the anything goes room ),

And So, the evile gnostic world culture, of syncronistic mind games from hell, like all the "Physical Grafiti," ( a name of a Led Zeppelin Album ---which Jimmy Page, a leading world Satanist, wanted the Spelling of Led Zeppelin to contain 11 letters, because that is the number of Magick, acording to Aliester Crowley <being the 11 sephiroth of the kabbalah ---being the 10 & 11th little horn of the terrible beast of Daniel 7: >, and that Jimy Page Lived/lives at the "Bolksine" house on Loch Ness, wales, ---Aleister Crowley's "Bolksine" house, which he owned, because it was supposed to have been built on the site of a church, which burned down with the congregation inside of it. And Jimy Page, had world leading Satanists, place satanic objects, and perform satanic rituals in the house. And Jimy Page, owns one of the worlds largest occult book stores in London, and He is so big in the occult, that occult books are dedicated to Him. I believe --from memory, one Title was "Books of the Beast," or "Bookshelf of The Beast," ---I don't remember, but I have seen occult books dedicated to Him. In addition, he is supposed to have a much more rare, and accurate version of the Necronomicon, in His possession ----a book which may have been invented by H.P. Lovecraft, but is claimed to have more of a history than just that, including claims, it's knowledge existed in some evil realm such as the supposed akashic record, and lovecraft, simply channeled the work ----the point is, it is taken very serriously in occult circles, ---and stairway to heaven is written around the characters of the necronomicon, mainly the evil queen of heaven as "The Lady who's sure all that glitters is gold," ----as personifications of the forces within the book, of which he owns a supposedly more evil/powerfull version. led Zeppelin 9 as can be found in the book "The Hammer Of The God's" had a song entitled "Hats off to Roy Harper," --who as it turns out was a black poet who traveled with them for a bit, and who wrote "You Christians killed My tribe, and I stab at You till I die," And Aleister Crowley, began the fascination with speaking backwards --but it was not until the first half-track open real tape recorders were invented, in which when a tape is flipped over, and played back ---the two tracks recorded on the other side line up with the same two tape head sections, and therefore the sound plays backwards, and everyone from Buddy Holly, to the Beatles and beyond manipulated what these tape machines could do ---with the beatles becoming experts at playing things chopped up, and backwards ( thru much trial and error, and thus gained experience ), and so satanists learned what backward masking sounds like, and found the word "satan" when played backwards, sound like "theres," ---a very rare occurence indeed, where one word played backwards, can actualy sound like another real world ----and so in "Stairway To Heaven," the word "There's" is used so the backward masking of satan will apear ---and when stairway to heaven is played backwards ---and entire satanic message can be heard. And of cource, when Crowley, supposedly channeled the "Book Of The Law," thru his wife in Ciaro Egypt ---the book declares the end of Christianity, by declaring the end of the Christian age, and the birth of the new age of "The Crowned and Conquering Child." ---and it is this crowned and conquering child, who will destroy/replace Christianity, who Led Zeppelin sings about in " Going To california," "The Mountains and the canyons started to tremble and shake, as the children of the sun began to awake"!!!!!!!!!!!!! And in "When the Levee breaks," when they sing "crying wont help you, prayin wont do you no good, crying wont help you, prayin wont do you no good, when the levee breaks mamma you gota move."

and so much of this evil theme of Led Zeppelin in particular, is found on the untitled Volume 4. ----But I have done My part to try and tell the truth, because it's much worse than anyone will admidt too, from the Beatles to Led Zeppelin, and beyond -----but only bands like ACDC, seem to raise eyebrows, when the entire earth has become hell itself, when the secret world gnostic religion, has taken over, and has superemposed the "physical grafiti," of the anti-physical gnostic world, over the true physical world ----and in teaching You their BS, about how you need to be saved from the Matrix, they awaken you into the very Matrix, they claim to save You from: and Neo Aderson == ( Neo=new ) ( Ander ==a derivative from a word meaning "man" ) and ( son=son ), or Neo Anderson = the "new son of man"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pop culture revels, wantingly revels, and mocks us, for the hell it has turned earth into, because Christianity wont stand in truth ---and to hate the world, and the world system, means this hidden world of hell, which we let them superempose on the physical world, where we are to preserve our temples/bodies in obedience ----which we can not do, if we allow all to become hell around us.

And just a little nit-picking here, but: 1)If we need to be born again, then 2) then and only then does our body become our temples, which we are to preserve, becasue 3) We do not belong to God, before being saved, and 4) therefore Jesus would not be concerned with us preserving something, that has not yet been "born Again," ---in the bigger picture, so 5) therefore, when we become born again, and then get the brilliant idea to hate the flesh ( flesh nature ), and the world, that we have to go gnostic, against the physical body/flesh --instead of flesh nature, and against the physical world/which is where the temple/body resides, which we are supposed to "preserve," ---but instead we come to hate the physical world, and thus have nothing left to preserve, and no where to preserve it ----because our very action in becomming gnostic, re-crucifies Christ, and thus I reject what the world system, and Christianity has become,

-----Instead we have to stand up and fight, rather than quible over nonsensical nit-picking, and post thousands of some odd posts, and don't realy seem to do anythig to try and make a real difference?????? A difference, which will actualy help someone in the real world?????????? I may be very ill, ( being attacked physicaly with metabolism, and thus concentration problems, and heart trouble, and now hypertension as well, etc.., etc.., etc.., ), and as being ill, I type lousy posts, ( but I do prya for health to better organize/and post ), and yet I see the most polished, slickest posts, imaginable, which don't realy say a single thing of real importance, or impact towards helping the world, except to polish out post technique and style, and I simply don't get it????

There will come a time when no "Man" can work, a concept overlooked, when it is only said no one can work ------because if You study the sum total of all verses, there are verses about how "few" men will be left, and how "men" will become more rare than the gold of ophir, ---because gnosticism, with lucifer/goddess as king of assyria, thus king of the goddessess, who refer to them as "Are not all my princes kings?," and therefore the goddess, think they are the prince, the inner man, the king, the substitute christ ( anti!!!! ), and that men have to be converted into their fold/system, "to become real men," ---and thus they murder/and emasculate the Church, and like Ezekile 13:20 says They "hunt lives to make them fly," ---which will be found in the KJV, I do not allways favor the KJV, but rather the recieved text from which it was written, and I have a recieved text hebrew/greek/english interlinear Bible, as well as many other resouces, and The litteral english translation given, along with the KJV, can be more litteral than where the KJV is in error ---and I correct it all into an older Ryrie study Bible NASB, which is also litteral type translation ----but I add in longer version of 1 JN 5:6-8, which is a seperate controvery, where they try and BS us about the shorter text is better,

Because the Vandals, and Goths, and Visigoths and others who occupied territory in the Roman Empire, and in various times, were pushed futher west, as the goths gave rise to the visigoths, and ostrogths, etc.., ---but as they got pushed into Spain ---it 1st was the Vandals ( where we get the term "Vandal" ), who swept down into Egypt, killing Trinitarian believing clergy, and burning their Bible texts, and other waves of successive goths, also swept down in waves, at defferent times, burning Bible texts as well,

And so as different waves passed thru, in North Africa and Egypt, Trinitarian, and then Non Trinitarian Bible texts/manuscripts were burnt, as each invasion/wave came and went, and in trash heaps in the sands of Alexandria Egypt, some fragment, of who knows of which counter wave?????????, burnt fragments of the shorter Vandal version texts were found, ----and touted as more accurate, than Byzantine texts, by BS scholorship ----and based on burnt fragments from trash heaps, beneath the sands of North Africa, we now have the NIV!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And so on, and so on, ----I have to fight the entire world, shlorars, pagans, and sold out Christians alike -----And I am very sick, and tired, and type from memory, and make mistakes ----which only means I have to every now and then refresh My memory, be rereading information ---and come to tell You, it is much worse than I tell You it is for the world, because the proof is more damming than I can remember ----and My occassional errors, do not strengthen the other sides case at all,

And as God is indeed My witness, things are far worse than I can possibly explain.

I will wait out history, and we can all see if what I do say, is indeed born out with God, as My witness, because I know inspite of My many failings, and on My last legs, unless I recieve some major miracles of healings, and restoration, ----I know My abilities are quite weak, but what I say is indeed true.

And while I ride out this storm, because I still don't know if I'll live, or how i'll ever find work again, without being pounced upon by worthless whores, and I do mean without a single ounce of worth of any kind, which I do also know is very harsh, but true ---so I pray You all pray for them, and infact You should be praying for all of the people I have accused, because even if remotely true ( incase You doubt Me ), they all need our prayers,

PartisanOfChrist
May 31st 2008, 08:18 PM
I want to hate My enemies, in My mind, to keep My sanity, when they attack Me, and yet I want to BEG YOU, that we all pray for them, I don't care anymore if I live another single day, in this destroyed state they have Me in, but please pray for those I tell You about, from all the Jimmy Pages in the world, to these employers, and co-workers from hell!!!!!!! We need to pray for them ---even if You don't like Me, because there are very few people I like ( But Biblical Love, meaning we care if our enemies do go to hell, which we should never want ----has nothing to do, with Me being forced to like someone. I don't have to like anyone, to ask you to pray for all the ACDC, and other occupants of hell, which is most all of us, in My opinion )
And God has indeed helped Me see another piece of the puzzle I am trying to put together, because I do not like the Preterist View, and see much of the Historic, and Futurist view of revelation ---which everyone seems to see, at the expense of the Idealist, or personal view ---the idealsit view, deals with each and every individual, and what can happen to us in light of the "elemental things" of the new age world system of gnosticism, etc.., ---and Jesus, in the 7 Church letters, was also speaking to individuals, and those who do and do not do these things, and do and do not hold to these thrings etc..,
Gnosticism, and Roscicrusian alternative realites, take over the world, till people become "like dreams, like visions in the night," Isaiah 29:7-8, etc.., has the dual role of preaching of when the world goes down to make war with Ariel/Jerusalem ---when our bodies are our temples, and the New Jerusalem within our Hearts, the Home of The Holy Spirit, are destroyed ---until the final day, of futurist interpretation, where everyone looks for the rebuilding of a single new temple on the temple mount, during the final days of this evil earth ----but as individuals we have been facing this evil ( in a spiritualized way ) for almost 2000 years,
which is what Luther, and the Protestants came to realise ----that the evil spirit of the antichrist is allways with the world, and the church, That is a fundamental part of Protestantism ---which is largely overlooked, because the spirit of the world beast, has made the Church drunk with sleep, and complacency.
The Protestants came to realise, the spirit of the antichrist, is allways with the world, and the Church ----and all we do, is look to the Future, instead of here and now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wpm
May 31st 2008, 08:19 PM
Aparently also, many also gave up on the movement for failures, to prvoke more converts thru Jealousy, thru observing feasts commemoritively, only -----and were probably, allways accused of being sacramentalists, and therefore simple folded into the Christian Body, as Christians themselves,

Surely there is only one body, known by the same name Christian - why is there such a problem with this biblical name? Why the division? The Bible says "there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek" (Rom 10:12), "there is neither Jew nor Greek" (Gal 3:28), and "there is neither Greek nor Jew" (Col 3:11), "no difference between us and them" (Acts 15:9), "us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles" (Rom 9:24), and "by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles" (1 Cor 12:13).

This is just another man-made schism within the body, which runs against scriptural command. Whether we are Jews or Gentiles, we who trust Jesus have one common faith. As Paul put it "There is one body and one Spirit -- just as you were called -- one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all" (Eph. 4:4-6).

There should be no division in the body on ethnic grounds - none.

Paul

Merton
May 31st 2008, 10:21 PM
[quote] "...if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" (Ga 3:29).


"...we are the real circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh" (Ph 3:3). /QUOTE]


Abraham's offspring and the inheritors of the promise are those who put their trust in Jesus Christ. They are the real circumcision, which means taht those who trust in lineage or Christless religion are not. This isn't about hating anyone; but it is about loving Jesus Christ.



Perhaps it is time that we face honestly what many suspect: this perennial fascination with an ideology of blood, race and soil persists because like those addressed in the book of Hebrews, a sizable faction of today's church teeters on the brink of defection from Christianity to Judaism.



Well said.



Merton.

wpm
May 31st 2008, 11:11 PM
[quote] "...if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" (Ga 3:29).


"...we are the real circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh" (Ph 3:3). /QUOTE]


Abraham's offspring and the inheritors of the promise are those who put their trust in Jesus Christ. They are the real circumcision, which means taht those who trust in lineage or Christless religion are not. This isn't about hating anyone; but it is about loving Jesus Christ.



Perhaps it is time that we face honestly what many suspect: this perennial fascination with an ideology of blood, race and soil persists because like those addressed in the book of Hebrews, a sizable faction of today's church teeters on the brink of defection from Christianity to Judaism.


I must also say: Well said.

Paul

Naphal
May 31st 2008, 11:16 PM
Perhaps it is time that we face honestly what many suspect: this perennial fascination with an ideology of blood, race and soil persists because like those addressed in the book of Hebrews, a sizable faction of today's church teeters on the brink of defection from Christianity to Judaism.


Or at least confusion between the two...a hybrid religion borrowing from both which I believe can be innocent but can also be very dangerous.

PartisanOfChrist
Jun 1st 2008, 01:27 AM
I wanted to pull My posts from this thread, because of what had developed.

I had one mistake in memory, invovling a large number I heard on a Christian show. ( Which I now believe must have been about a joint event. )

Based on what I thought I had heard about an event involving Israel, I thought it also involved a sizeable population indiginous to Israel.

I am not interested in world stats, and study just about everything but them, and therefore did not realize their worldwide population is growing so much slower, than so many others.

I then looked some stuff up quickly, in which the internet can realy suck for finding things, if You don't specificaly know the name of the site you want ---and I should have never asked a search engine My question, but rather for the name of sites, and then asked the site ----because the way I did it brought too many hits, and all sites want to do, is produce as many useless hits as possible.

But in doing so, I discovered one site had a missing decimal point, or one two faint to read?????????? and annother specificaly gave an answer to a question based on percentage of population in Israel, and not percentage of Jews ( it could have been figured either way, but was not ) And therefore I became angry, when it seems I was being specificaly misquoted, on what they said, ---which I reported it, just how they had worded it, even if the stat from the other site, probably had a faint decimal point I did not see.

with all of this being said, I would prefer to not be angry with You specificaly, because I am too bussy being angry with the concept, that I simply do not believe the large numbers of those who claim to love Christ, and God are accurate ------because a percentage ( large I beleive ), actualy love the substitute pretending to be Christ, i.e. the anti- or instead of Christ; and then the implication of the 2nd meaning of anti- as against ----because he does not care if he has to play both roles.

And I stated, I believed it was from Zechariah, that this instead of, is the false shephard, who "rips the hoofs off of" his flock, and is quite gnostic, and is pure evil.

However, as I am being spiritualy, and physicaly persecuted, I went off, and went into subjects I would prefer to pull, and place elsewhere, under apropriate headings, and maybee present them better, when I feel better, but in a polite and generic way, as I do not know, or want to know who is who, and will not get involved in a shouting war, but rather, do not want to pull My punches, with My acusations, that so much of what claims to be genuine, is not.

And I want to leave behind a reduced number, of corrected posts in this thread, because My points had nothing to do with the numbers, I remembered wrong -----because I so stated, it had nothing to do with numbers,

However, I also stated, that a Messianic Jew, is, if genuine, simply a Jewish Christian, who holds onto certain aspects of their Jewishness, for the sake of Jealousy, to help entice other Jews to convert as well.

I also just discovered the statistic, that many Messianic Jews simply became Christians instead, I believed because of lack of support, in the other status

But I also do not know, what percentage of them go from being Messianic Jews to being Christians, because they want to down play the whole bloodline issue as well???????????

I don't know how many of them have indeed converted "Titles" for conscious sake, so that the blood aspect can be downplayed??????

I'm a mutt, majority Gentile, and a tiny fraction Jewish, on the English, Scottish, Welsh side ---that would involve all the French, and Germanic blood, ---and on that English side, Native American, and the Jewish < it's a long story>, and on the Scicilin, and Spanish side, long Spanish ancestory, Black, most likely Moorish?????????, so I'm a mutt

And I have never been concerned about blood ----except to say the world system of gnosticism, uses race, to create racism as a "red herring," and then comes along to claim to destroy the same racism ----(because in truth satan creates the racisms, and all of it, so he can manipulate the flesh nature within gnosticism's victims, to feel this way and that, to force them to eventualy choose higher qabalistic paths. For example, I believe it is in the Pantera song "Five minutes alone," where they sing "You use My color to promote your racism...)

Because Jesus did say "nation will rise against nation, and kingdom will rise against kingdom," Mt 24:7, and also spoke of earthquakes, and famines etc.., However in the Bible nation=race, as in the table of nations, so therefore what Jesus said can be understood "Race will rise against race, and nation will rise against nation."

So therefore, as I stated, I don't care about race, except for how it's abused, and I am lucky I can take advantage of My racial inheritence, to make a few observations, without being attacked: Namely I believe satan's plans, from the tower of babel, etc.., involved creating a racial component to his agenda to make gnosticism a universal phenomenon, and therefore the O.T. tells us how Egypt put it's faith in Ethiopia, and Cush ----and therefore as rulers of the night, and going qabalisticaly higher, I believe the Nicolations type of Heirarchy within gnosticism, involves a black ruling /guardians of the night, type component, which Egyptian half of the system ( as per Isaiah showing Egypt as 1/2 of it ), and therefore the book, Song Of Solomon, with the dark skinned queen of Sheba, is used inapropriately, for the black goddess rulership ( as per Isaiah showning Assyria as 1/2 of it ), ----and therefore the gnostic heirarchy has a spiritual black on black war, or kingdom on kingdom war, ------and the whole gnostic mess also has it's nation upon nation war ----where blacks, and whites, and all other races fight, and accuse the others of abuse, etc..,

It's a real mess, and MT 24:7, warned of it ---and it indeed is the system satan uses, to claim to destroy racism, and sexism, and ageism, etc.., from one saide, while the other side says Bull ---and the spiritual vampires, and wearwolves battle it out.

No one seems to want to discuss their spriitual dream/nightmare world gnosticism ----which can be seen in the majority of Pop culture, from classic rock to heavy metal, to the movies, and books, etc.., etc.., etc.., ---it's everywhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

However, I have a question, based on what I have read here??????? If one is a true Christian, then how can they defect to Judism, based on race????????????

I had no idea such a concern existed, but are You saying, by feeling Israel has some prophetic purpose to fullfill, when restored to prophetic authority, when the Church is grafted back out of position of holding same authority, due to the great apostacy, or falling away ----because that is what so many believe, and not in the simple minded explainations sometimes given?????????????????????????

Many look to the Jews, to be restored, ( meaning only a faithfull remnant mind You ), because the Church becomes too apostate to hold claim to being faithfull, and therefore do not hold to the views which seem to be put forth here today. So do You understand these as a seperate argument, and reject them as well, holding to some sort of dominion theology, or that a little of everything will exist, when Christ returns, including many faithfull Christians???????????

I don't realy care what You believe, in that I am not attacking Your views, but am merely so currious, as to what You are saying, I would prefer qualifications on Your part, on just how many major versions, divisions of this issue You see, and how You feel about them?????????

As I can clearly see not, a presentation, in a way I never heard it presented before, namely the "dangers of a blending of the two," and a "defection away from Christianity towards Judism."

Because not seeing in that light, I have come accross individuals trying to push Qabbalistic thought, based on some supposed "Jewsih" authority on the rise, within Christianity. And I am currious, as to just how large an issue You see it as???????

I want to war with gnosticism, and therefore wish to pull most of these posts in this thread, and leave only a very small number of corrected ones in their place -----and repost most of this material elsewhere, under different headings and all.

But if You would not mind, elaborating further, I have no intention of jumping all over You. there is no trickery involved, I am just currious, because I have observed some of the same things.

And lastly, when I pull most of these posts, and correct the mistakes, You don't have to of cource, but for clarity sake ---it would be easier if You also pulled the quotes of My mistakes, as the thread wont make as much sense, with My corrections, and You still quoting, what will no longer exist. I can admidt their were small percentage of errors on My part, involving the 20, when the 2 ( I now see ) sholud have been the Max number. And as such I was angry, but have calmed down ---over the other wordings ( involving 1 or maybee 2 mistakes ), based on exactely what was said on stat sites, and I had no control over their wordings, including 1% of population of Israel ----because they did not say 1% of Jewish population in Israel ----and I don't like being help accountable for their wording, as if I made that up???????

I admidted where I was wrong, when I finaly was able to piece together My error, and then the way a couple of sites had listed things, and hope we can move on.

I will give it a couple of days for You to decide for yourself, but I will correct My errors, and if You still choose to quote, what won't be there anymore, so be it, I do not want to fight.

There are way to many so called Christians for Me to be angry with, since they are not genuine ----for Me to make a specific example out of anyone ----so I preffer a broad stroke, as opposed to otherwise,

And I am so stating, because I do not know You, nor do I care if I do, because if I decide You fit in such a category, according to My assessments, I would never tell You so ----because I want to be as generic as possible, and therefore am looking for no war of words with You, even if I decide I feel Your wrong.

I need prayers, and practice to calm down, because I am very ill, and if I am misquoted -----or feel I am -----or feel minor number of errors of mine, leads to licence to misquote me accross the board, etc..,

becuase even though I felt attacked, You could have simply been so amazed with the numbers I found, based on that faint decimal point I must have not seen ---that hopefully You did not intend to misquote Me!!!!!!!!!

My errors were bad enough on their own, and needed no help of misquotes as well.

So I have to learn to not answer them, when they occur, and let the reader decide.

But as I am also ill ----I need to start writting everything I post in "Word," and then edit, and then post -----as I with My chronic fatigue, concentrate well enough for a good 2st draft ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think faster than I can put the thought down, and get jumbled, and I therefore write, like a psycotic, or like I have had a mental breakdown, or something like that, on My 1st draft.

I can write well, if I outline, and redo ---what most people take for granted as 1st drafts, so consider Yourselves blessed for that ability.

God Bless.

Mike.

Levi bar HaNatsari
Jun 1st 2008, 03:11 AM
I accept all these points - my point was that I believe it's TOTALLY wrong to make such a fuss about Israel as a nation, defending them and cow-tow'ing to them like SOME US preachers do (hem hem - I think we all know who I'm referring to!) - not only because of their barbaric actions but more importantly because they are STILL rejecting Christ - so until they start believing on Him in BIG numbers, PREACHING THE GOSPEL TO THEM should be the focus of our interest in Israel - agreed? Or is some Hyperdispie going to come in with the "dual covenant" theory and say that all they need to do is be good Jews and live up to the requirements of the Old Covenant - and they'll be OK! No need to come to Christ! Believe me, I've heard that nonsense!


I believe you have a serious battle ahead of yourself, see because of the bloodline you should care about hte things you say. Elohim said to Avraham " I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you". Maybe we should ask ourselves why the Yahudim(jews) should want to believe in some white messiah, who seemingly has persecuted them for some 2000 years by his followers, catch my drift! It was this Messiah who said to go to the Yahudim first, to pray for them, and if this fits to love your enemies. I believe this line of tyrannical inquiry stems from 2000 years of anti-semitism within this "church", which so many people believe has Relaced the House of Ya'akov(jacob)!!!! Who do we think we are, following these New-Age teachings of Origen and Marcion! Forget the words of these wolves who have infiltrated the assemblies of the Almighty and look upon the words of Yahushua HaMaschiach as our sole source of RENEWED covenant leadership. I once was lost in the land of Babel(confusion) but I prayed earnestly before Adonai to show me the Truth, and if you ask in faith you shall receive! To use the very person most people use to dispute our Messiah, this is a lesson from Paul and it would do you well to remember that we are grafted into the Olive tree of the Yahudim, not vice versa.

Naphal
Jun 1st 2008, 03:34 AM
To use the very person most people use to dipute our Messiah, this is a lesson from Paul and it would do you well to remember that we are grafted into the Olive tree of the Yahudim, not vice versa.

The gentiles certainly have been grafted onto the olive tree but don't forget the faithless have also been broken off and cast away. It's two fold. No one should boast against anyone else on that tree but there is nothing wrong with being honest about those that are not in the faith and know not God :)

wpm
Jun 1st 2008, 03:43 AM
I believe you have a serious battle ahead of yourself, see because of the bloodline you should care about hte things you say. Elohim said to Avraham " I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you". Maybe we should ask ourselves why the Yahudim(jews) should want to believe in some white messiah, who seemingly has persecuted them for some 2000 years by his followers, catch my drift! It was this Messiah who said to go to the Yahudim first, to pray for them, and if this fits to love your enemies. I believe this line of tyrannical inquiry stems from 2000 years of anti-semitism within this "church", which so many people believe has Relaced the House of Ya'akov(jacob)!!!! Who do we think we are, following these New-Age teachings of Origen and Marcion! Forget the words of these wolves who have infiltrated the assemblies of the Almighty and look upon the words of Yahushua HaMaschiach as our sole source of RENEWED covenant leadership. I once was lost in the land of Babel(confusion) but I prayed earnestly before Adonai to show me the Truth, and if you ask in faith you shall receive! To use the very person most people use to dipute our Messiah, this is a lesson from Paul and it would do you well to remember that we are grafted into the Olive tree of the Yahudim, not vice versa.

Scripture continually tells us that there are only two types of people in this life – saved and lost, the righteous and the wicked; it doesn’t remotely outline three peoples as many futurists try to do. In fact, Paul the Apostle destroys that notion by revealing that both of these two diverse groups include Jew and Gentile alike. Therefore, biblically, everyman is either Christ’s or Satan’s in this life – no convenient man-made in-between.

Paul explains of the wicked,“Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile” (Romans 2:9).

And of the righteous,“glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also of the Gentile” (Romans 2:10).

Paul’s clear words in this narrative firmly nail the dispensational notion that there are three distinct peoples in this life, namely – saved, lost and natural Jews. They argue, without any scriptural support, that of these three, two are God’s – the Church and the Jews, and one is the devil’s – the wicked. However, Paul concludes, “For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law (Gentiles) shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law (Jews) shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:11-12).

Peter outlines the same truth in Acts 10:34-36, when he witnessed with his own eyes the Gentiles receiving the Gospel of Christ, saying,“I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all).” What he succinctly affirmed was: “God is no respecter of persons.” This is the constant theme of the New Testament. The Gospel is no longer restricted to the physical race of Israel but it has been opened up to all nations. In fact, them that fear him and walk righteously “in every nation” are now “accepted with him.” He is assuredly “Lord of all.”He has made all nations, tribes and kindreds the focus of His favour today. It is wrong to elevate one nation over another.

Paul

Levi bar HaNatsari
Jun 1st 2008, 05:54 AM
Forgive me, I do not mean to imply that the jews are saved for their bloodline, we must remember that as Yochanan the Baptizer said to the Pharisees and Saducees, And think not to say within yourselves, We have Avraham to our father: for I say unto you, that Elohim is able of these stones to raise up children unto Avraham.

Psalm 19:7 The Torah is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of YHWH is sure, making wise the simple.

And the Words of the Messiah:
Yochanan 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.




Now Luke 15:11-32 this is the story of the prodigal son.

11.
Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons.(Yahudah and Yisrael)


12.
The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of the estate.' So he divided his property between them.


13.
"Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living.(the diasporsa)


14.
After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. (there was a spiritual void)


15.
So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs.(uncleanliness of this world, other gods whom we worshipped, because we had lost our identity amongst the nations, we were utterly consumed)


16.
He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.


17.
"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death!


18.
I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.


19.
I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.'(the sincere realization that salvation comes by adhering to Fathers desires)


20.
So he got up and went to his father. "But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.(after the term spent in catholic imprisonment, in the 1500's we began to reform and He met us)


21.
"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'


22.
"But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet.(which is all for the first born-Yahudah, remember the prophecy in genesis 49:10 ' the scepter will not pass from Yahudah, nor the rulers staff from between his legs, until Shiloh comes, and it is He-Shiloh-whom the peoples will obey', you see, the One to whom obedience belongs-Shiloh-will bless the youngest first as Ya'akov has blessed Efraim over Manasheh,if the youngest returns to Him, for He is the lawgiver. What great rejoicing our Father has that we are returning, it was prophecied in Hoshea 2:14-23)


23.
Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate.


24.
For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.(they began to celebrate but could not fully do so until returning to house as we will see, the current and further restoration as opposed to the reformation of Fathers assemblies)


25.
"Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing.(as I said, once they returned to the house, the lost son received all that was promised)


26.
So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on.


27.
'Your brother has come,' he replied, 'and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.'


28.
"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him.(so Yahudah remains outside not partaking, because of jealousy)


29.
But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends.(Thus begins the jealous excuses of Yahudah, as we now see "why should I worship this blonde haired blue-eyed anti-semite", though truly jealous because of the fervor Yisrael,christianity, has for the Almighty)


30.
But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!'


31.
" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours.(those of you that keep my saying, my Torah that converts the soul, will always be with Me, everything I have is yours)


32.
But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' "
Sorry it is in NIV, couldn't find anything else online in so quick a time, but the Message here seems clear enough to me. No, Elohim is no respecter of persons, but when we look at the words of Messiah and not explain Him away with Paul, you see that though bloodline is not the deciding factor in salvation, as we see in Psalm 19:7 and Yochanan 8:51, He chose a People, this is scriptural, not my own making to teach some fabricated doctrine to lead people after me, these are His people.As we see from history, He blessed those that blessed the Yahudim, and certainly cursed those that have cursed them. Many of them will perish and it is not His will that any of us perish, our command is to spread the Good Tidings to all the world, but first to the Yahudim.

wpm
Jun 1st 2008, 10:03 PM
Forgive me, I do not mean to imply that the jews are saved for their bloodline, we must remember that as Yochanan the Baptizer said to the Pharisees and Saducees, And think not to say within yourselves, We have Avraham to our father: for I say unto you, that Elohim is able of these stones to raise up children unto Avraham.

Psalm 19:7 The Torah is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of YHWH is sure, making wise the simple.

And the Words of the Messiah:
Yochanan 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.









Now Luke 15:11-32 this is the story of the prodigal son.

11.
Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons.(Yahudah and Yisrael)


12.
The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of the estate.' So he divided his property between them.


13.
"Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living.(the diasporsa)


14.
After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. (there was a spiritual void)


15.
So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs.(uncleanliness of this world, other gods whom we worshipped, because we had lost our identity amongst the nations, we were utterly consumed)


16.
He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.


17.
"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death!


18.
I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.


19.
I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.'(the sincere realization that salvation comes by adhering to Fathers desires)


20.
So he got up and went to his father. "But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.(after the term spent in catholic imprisonment, in the 1500's we began to reform and He met us)


21.
"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'


22.
"But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet.(which is all for the first born-Yahudah, remember the prophecy in genesis 49:10 ' the scepter will not pass from Yahudah, nor the rulers staff from between his legs, until Shiloh comes, and it is He-Shiloh-whom the peoples will obey', you see, the One to whom obedience belongs-Shiloh-will bless the youngest first as Ya'akov has blessed Efraim over Manasheh,if the youngest returns to Him, for He is the lawgiver. What great rejoicing our Father has that we are returning, it was prophecied in Hoshea 2:14-23)


23.
Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate.


24.
For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.(they began to celebrate but could not fully do so until returning to house as we will see, the current and further restoration as opposed to the reformation of Fathers assemblies)


25.
"Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing.(as I said, once they returned to the house, the lost son received all that was promised)


26.
So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on.


27.
'Your brother has come,' he replied, 'and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.'


28.
"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him.(so Yahudah remains outside not partaking, because of jealousy)


29.
But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends.(Thus begins the jealous excuses of Yahudah, as we now see "why should I worship this blonde haired blue-eyed anti-semite", though truly jealous because of the fervor Yisrael,christianity, has for the Almighty)


30.
But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!'


31.
" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours.(those of you that keep my saying, my Torah that converts the soul, will always be with Me, everything I have is yours)


32.
But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' "
Sorry it is in NIV, couldn't find anything else online in so quick a time, but the Message here seems clear enough to me. No, Elohim is no respecter of persons, but when we look at the words of Messiah and not explain Him away with Paul, you see that though bloodline is not the deciding factor in salvation, as we see in Psalm 19:7 and Yochanan 8:51, He chose a People, this is scriptural, not my own making to teach some fabricated doctrine to lead people after me, these are His people.As we see from history, He blessed those that blessed the Yahudim, and certainly cursed those that have cursed them. Many of them will perish and it is not His will that any of us perish, our command is to spread the Good Tidings to all the world, but first to the Yahudim.

Since the cross God has chosen all nations equally to receive the Gospel without fear or favour. He is no respecter of persons today. Gentiles can receive salvation and experience favour today like Israelis. One's etenicity means absolutely nothing today, just contrite hearts all over the world.

I Corinthians 7:17 declares, “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing"

Galatians 5:2 declares, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."

Galatians 5:5 declares, "For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

Colossians 3:11 declares, “there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Romans 2:28-29 plainly states,“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter.”

Galatians 6:13 declares, “For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ"

Paul explains in Philippians 3:3, speaking of the Church,“For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the Spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.”

Here we have it! We the redeemed Church are the true circumcision today. That is Scripture speaking, not man's opinion.

Paul

wpm
Jun 2nd 2008, 04:39 AM
We are saved by grace, not by race. 1 Corinthians 1:23-24 says, "But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."

The religious Jews boasts of the law and their own works, but no man is saved (or justified) by keeping the law. Only one person kept the law perfectly - Christ. He was our substitute and representative. He lived that life we could never live. He died that death that we could never die. That's why we look to Him. This is basic salvation. We are saved by simple faith.

Paul says in Romans 3:20-22, “by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe.”

When we gave our hearts to Christ in salvation and trusted in His redeeming blood – we were immediately and completely cleansed of our sin and justified before a thrice-holy God. We were brought into union with God through the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ. We are now therefore reconciled unto an offended holy God. None of us has the ability to overcome sin in our own strength, by our own will-power or by our own self-discipline. We can only defeat it through the power of God in our lives. He changes our desires, He gives us strength, He enables us to conquer that old nature - daily. In short, we cannot overcome the old nature of our self. We need to learn how to lean completely upon Him, to depend upon Him for every holy inclination. Every truly righteous thought and desire we have originates in Him. Many wrongly think they can personally create these thoughts of themselves, but that is a delusion.

Paul then presents an interesting question in Romans 3:27-28, “Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”

Boasting is totally excluded by the fact that we are saved by faith in what Christ has done for us, not what we have done for Him.

Romans 4:13-16 says, “For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace.”

Please know, we do not gain God’s favour by doing a, b and c. We do a, b and c because we have God’s favour. There is an important difference. One is works and emanates from man; the other is faith and emanates from the grace, mercy and love of God.

Romans 11:5-6 says, “at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”

One seems to cancel out the other.

Galatians 2:16 declares, “a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

Galatians 3:10-11 agrees, saying, “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.”

Ephesians 2:8-9 says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

Are men looking to their own righteousness or are they looking to Christ's? If it is Christ's then they will see that their salvation is sure. If they are looking to themselves theywill be sorely disappointed. Those that look to Christ possess His robes of righteousness and are therefore one with Him and part of His bride. Those that don't are outside of salvation and outside His bride.

2 Timothy 1:9 says that God, “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.”

Titus 3:5-7 says, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

Paul

PartisanOfChrist
Jun 3rd 2008, 01:02 AM
I had made a technical error from My memory, which compounded into a second error, and side I was going to pull this post due to the errors. But
the software won't let Me do so.

I apologize for the inconvenince.

God Bless,

Mike.

looking forward
Jun 9th 2008, 03:07 PM
be dealing with Israel in the next 10 years, when they have their (70) th birthday,

Prophecy Man
Jun 9th 2008, 04:39 PM
Let me encourage you. the postings you put up are wonderful, I have covered them at some point but not the Prodigal son which is a perfect picture of salvation. First for israel and them to Individuals who hear the mesage and recieve it with gladness.

These people are hung upon the message of salvation which we are all in agreement we just discuss who are the recievers and how. They fail to understand the Gospel was to be preached to the Jew first and then to the gentile. At this point it becomes a none issue for we all enter into the " new Covenant " through the shed blood of Yashoah.

It is like a friend who finds a buddy living in rags and dirt so he takes up his buddy and offers to restore him to health and help him get on his feet.
The growth takes place where the " buddy " does become healthy and strong. Later the friend overs hears his buddy tell another person the house he is living in is now his house. He hears that all decisions and bank accounts are also his. A jealousy begins but both parties know the truth.

This is a rediculas story yet we see it played out in the Church today. Main stream church is now calling itself " True Israel " as if God did not rescue Israel from distruction in the past. After all God only saves individuals so what was that nation without a country doing in another country that had to be rescued. Did God reacue a nation or did God rescue a bunch of individuals. And why after every card against them they managed to escape and remain a nation and regain their land again.

This is history, anyone can use scripture to say what they believe. I could use scripture to support a person should go out and hang them self when they repent, after all Judas did. This is why I usually quote history because history supports a nation of people called Israelites and their story. History speaks for itself and scripture speaks for itself when it is lined up with the bible and God's original promises.

God bless
Doug

wpm
Jun 9th 2008, 10:50 PM
Let me encourage you. the postings you put up are wonderful, I have covered them at some point but not the Prodigal son which is a perfect picture of salvation. First for israel and them to Individuals who hear the mesage and recieve it with gladness.

These people are hung upon the message of salvation which we are all in agreement we just discuss who are the recievers and how. They fail to understand the Gospel was to be preached to the Jew first and then to the gentile. At this point it becomes a none issue for we all enter into the " new Covenant " through the shed blood of Yashoah.

It is like a friend who finds a buddy living in rags and dirt so he takes up his buddy and offers to restore him to health and help him get on his feet.
The growth takes place where the " buddy " does become healthy and strong. Later the friend overs hears his buddy tell another person the house he is living in is now his house. He hears that all decisions and bank accounts are also his. A jealousy begins but both parties know the truth.

This is a rediculas story yet we see it played out in the Church today. Main stream church is now calling itself " True Israel " as if God did not rescue Israel from distruction in the past. After all God only saves individuals so what was that nation without a country doing in another country that had to be rescued. Did God reacue a nation or did God rescue a bunch of individuals. And why after every card against them they managed to escape and remain a nation and regain their land again.

This is history, anyone can use scripture to say what they believe. I could use scripture to support a person should go out and hang them self when they repent, after all Judas did. This is why I usually quote history because history supports a nation of people called Israelites and their story. History speaks for itself and scripture speaks for itself when it is lined up with the bible and God's original promises.

God bless
Doug

Galatians 5:2-6 says, “If ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

The word rendered “profit” here, in the King James Version, is the Greek word opheleo meaning to be of benefit, advantage or profit. Thus we can deduce: one’s circumcision (or Jewishness) carries no advantage before God when it comes to salvation. All men approach God on the same terms and in the same way. Jew and Gentile must acknowledge their innate sin to enter into the joy of salvation, whereupon they embrace the Lord Jesus Christ by faith as man’s only sin-bearer and Saviour. Salvation is all about Christ. He is man’s mediator, Saviour and justifier. Without Him there is no redemption.

Paul

Naphal
Jun 10th 2008, 12:18 AM
Thus we can deduce: one’s circumcision (or Jewishness) carries no advantage before God when it comes to salvation. All men approach God on the same terms and in the same way.

Yes as well as that there is no benefit to someone for obeying the OT laws regarding circumcision which also implies the same to all non-valid laws like the food laws, Sabbath laws, any ceremonial laws....any law not part of the NT law of Christ.

Joe King
Jun 10th 2008, 02:13 AM
Have any prominent Jewish leaders converted to Christianity?

Naphal
Jun 10th 2008, 05:27 AM
Have any prominent Jewish leaders converted to Christianity?

Yes, a man named Saul converted which was quite a shock to both the Jewish and Christian communities.

Joe King
Jun 10th 2008, 05:46 AM
Yes, a man named Saul converted which was quite a shock to both the Jewish and Christian communities.

:pp:pp:pp

Touche. I mean in recent times.

Naphal
Jun 10th 2008, 05:53 AM
:pp:pp:pp

Touche. I mean in recent times.

This is more recent anyways:

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9204mast.asp

wpm
Jun 10th 2008, 06:06 AM
This is more recent anyways:

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9204mast.asp

He was not a convert to Christianity but Romanism.

Paul

Naphal
Jun 10th 2008, 06:13 AM
He was not a convert to Christianity but Romanism.

Paul

Well, for the sake of avoiding argument he left Judaism towards Christianity....I don't want to ruin it to debate the pitfalls of Catholicism.

Prophecy Man
Jun 10th 2008, 04:16 PM
Paul,
The post you put up is as I pointed out, that is , We must look to Christ for salvation. For us it is a no brainer for we have left the fundamental doctrine of salvation and are ( should be ) moving on to maturity as the word says. You and I are in agreement on " how to be saved " which is by grace. Noah was given notice of the flood and the message that " the end of all flesh has come before Me ( God ) " but did all flesh perish-no- because that whould have ment Noah and his family would have had to perish. We see a perfect picture of Grace, and the word even says " and Noah FOUND grace in the eyes of the Lord ". So all of Noah's family was saved and take a close look, it was a group of people that got saved not just individuals.
I have maintanied all along that God's love for the covenant people has not changed -- read two chapters in Isaiah starting with 40 and end with 41. you will find that :

God wants comfort for his people
God says speak kindly to Jerusalem
( her punishment is complete, The Lord has made her pay for her
sins double )
God declars his greatness in these chapters and says " do you not
know , vs 40 : 28 , He does not get tired nor weary , He is an
eternal God ". (this is why God forgives sin )
Vs 41 : 9 God says you ( Israel ) " whom I am bringing back from
the earth's extremities, and have summed from the remote regions
I -==- God -== -told you (Israel ) you are my servant, I have
chosen you and not rejected you.
vs 41 : 20 " I will do this so people will observe and recognize , and
pay attention and understand that the lord's power has , the
sovereign king of Israel has done this ".

In these passages God has told us what He is and will do. God said He
is " the King of Israel ". by saying the church is true Israel you are saying
physical Israel is out of the picture. These passages point out God is not
finished with Israel or why did God save them through out History as I have said all along. These passages back up what I have said and History
also backs it up.

Naphal,
In answer to your Question has any leaders of Israel accepted Christ?
Yes, only they are keeping it to themselves. Remember Elijah thought
all of Israel ( sound familar ? ) had rejected God but God told Elijah
" I have reserved 7000 that has not kissed nor bowed down to BaaL "
God always has a Remnant and that is true today. That Remnant is
Jewish and God knows who they are but we do not.
When the going gets tuff, these will be the ones that will reject the
antiChrist. They won't be able to keep silent any longer, God will give them strength to speak out.

I await your responces

Doug

wpm
Jun 10th 2008, 05:07 PM
God's love for the covenant people has not changed...

God said He
is " the King of Israel ".

But God loves the nations today, that is why Jesus came. Jesus said in John 3:16-17: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

God is also King of all the nations today, not just natural Israel. I hope you don't mind me saying, but the problem with Dispensationalism is that it is fixated with Israel. It can see no further than that nation, whereas God is interested in all nations today equally. God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:29, Romans 2:11, Galatians 2:6, Ephesians 6:9, Colossians 3:25, 1 Peter 1:17). The sinner (of all nationalities) enters exclusively into communion with God through regeneration and the new birth experience.



by saying the church is true Israel you are saying
physical Israel is out of the picture


It is not about one lone physical nation anymore - it about all nations, kindreds and tribes. God's chosen people are those that love Christ, not those that hate Him.

1 John 5:10-12 says, “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”

II John 1:9-10 says, “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Paul

Naphal
Jun 10th 2008, 08:59 PM
That Remnant is
Jewish and God knows who they are but we do not.
When the going gets tuff, these will be the ones that will reject the
antiChrist. They won't be able to keep silent any longer, God will give them strength to speak out.

I await your responces

Doug

Well, I am sure there are Jews in the world that are silent about their Christianity but I also know there are many that are not silent about it. I don't believe all the remnant keeps their beliefs secret up until the time they reject the antichrist but I do agree with the premise that this remnant will already be Christians rather than become Christians through the process of the tribulation or when they see Christ return.

Prophecy Man
Jun 11th 2008, 06:34 PM
Paul, I just read Genises chapter 12 : 3 and in it it declars that


" I (God) will ( future from that point and has not changed at the present time because God declared He is unchangeble ) bless those who bless thee and curse Him that curses thee. AND IN THEE SHALL ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH BE BLESSED (KJV)
the other translations I have read says that all the families of the earth
shall bless themselves because of you.

The reason the nations / families will bless and be blessed is through
Abraham came promise of salvation and was passed down through
Isaac. This is the no brainer, We know from where we are saved and
I am reminded of this all the time. This is scripture as I have stated
but does History support " it is not about a nation anylonger ".

I read history and history records a nation that has been in existance
for at least 3000 years. This nation has been badly mistreated to the point that if a mirical had not taken place this nation would have been
wiped out a dozen times. I read a book that backs up that history and that same book states that in the future this same nation will be the focal point for world peace. Contempory history and past history records this same nation has been the focal point since their beginning.

Did you know that during the six day war the world came close to a necular exchange that would have killed millions of lives. Also during
the Yom Kippor war as well. Presedent Nixion told the soviets to back of
because the U S A was backing Israel ( Israel was about to go under
and they were about to use the Samson option ) That would have ment:

The Soviets would have launched their Nukular missiles
The U S A would have done the same
And Israel would have launched their Missels also.

That would have ment three countries missels' would have done so much dammage we can't even consieve how bad.

WHY

because of a little small nation not bigger than the state of Roade
Island. Why has it's enemies tried time after time to not just take
them over but totally wipe them out as a people that not one would
be left alive.

WHY

does the Koran state that no muslim will be resureccted untill all jews will be dead.

we are in the end times and Jesus promised he would return again but if it is not about nations / families of the earth why then does it say " I will
make Jerusalem a burdensome stone to all the nations ". and also why does it say in joel 3 " I will gather all nations ( after God brings them back from captivity ) and bring them into the vally of decision and enter into Judgement with them there :

WHY
vs 3 : 2b " on account of my people , my heritage ISRAEL " " they have
also divided up my land" ( the dividing up the land happened in the mid
1900"s not before )

If it isn't abnout a nation then why all the scripture supporting a nation which history supports.

I know what you will say and it concerns salvation and a nation can't bring salvation but Christ can and did bring about salvation. But Christ
promised to come back to Israel and set up " the kingdom of God ".
This is what Satan is desperatly tring to stop.

The kingdom will be restored to Israel ( Acts 1 : 9 )
Jesus promised " you ( Israel ) will not see me again UNTILL
you say blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord " ( math 23 : 27-29)

This is the reason Satan has been furously trying to wipe out Israel and
Satan has clouded the truth so that He can ultimatly be greater than
( sound familiar ) God. If he can put an end to Israel there won't be a
Jerusalem or a people called Israelites to come back to.

You can call it Dispensationalisim or anything you like , I call it a fact!
The word says through His people " I ( God ) will be sanctified through
Israel.

Again I will say " I will bless Israel but I will also worship Christ"

I cretainlly won't despise Israel by not Honoring them or praying for them and the peace the bible talks about.

Naphel,
many of the members of the I D F saw miricals they could not explain.
The kind of miricals like walking through mine fields and not getting blown
up or like during battle they saw the enemie suddenly turn and start fighting themselves and running away at the point the Israel Army was
badly out numbered. Many of these soldiers have become believres in the one true God of Abraham and isaac and before they were unbelievers.
God is not done with them and we will be grandstanding when the final act will be played out. Pray for them because they need it.
( so do we also )

Doug

wpm
Jun 11th 2008, 06:44 PM
Paul, I just read Genises chapter 12 : 3 and in it it declars that


" I (God) will ( future from that point and has not changed at the present time because God declared He is unchangeble ) bless those who bless thee and curse Him that curses thee. AND IN THEE SHALL ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH BE BLESSED (KJV)
the other translations I have read says that all the families of the earth
shall bless themselves because of you.

The reason the nations / families will bless and be blessed is through
Abraham came promise of salvation and was passed down through
Isaac. This is the no brainer, We know from where we are saved and
I am reminded of this all the time. This is scripture as I have stated
but does History support " it is not about a nation anylonger ".


The NT Redeemed Church is simply and extension of the OT Redeemed Church. The elect of all ages are one spiritual body and one spiritual building - there is no dividing wall. We are the children of Abraham - not Christ rejecting natural Israel. The kingdom was taken off them.

Galatians 3:7-9 says, “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”



WHY
vs 3 : 2b " on account of my people , my heritage ISRAEL " " they have
also divided up my land" ( the dividing up the land happened in the mid
1900"s not before )

If it isn't abnout a nation then why all the scripture supporting a nation which history supports.


Yes we are spiritual Israel. He still blesses us.



I know what you will say and it concerns salvation and a nation can't bring salvation but Christ can and did bring about salvation. But Christ
promised to come back to Israel and set up " the kingdom of God ".
This is what Satan is desperatly tring to stop.

The kingdom will be restored to Israel ( Acts 1 : 9 )
Jesus promised " you ( Israel ) will not see me again UNTILL
you say blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord " ( math 23 : 27-29)


No, they asked him a question. Jesus gave a spiritual answer about the advance of the Gospel.



This is the reason Satan has been furously trying to wipe out Israel and
Satan has clouded the truth so that He can ultimatly be greater than
( sound familiar ) God. If he can put an end to Israel there won't be a
Jerusalem or a people called Israelites to come back to.

You can call it Dispensationalisim or anything you like , I call it a fact!
The word says through His people " I ( God ) will be sanctified through
Israel.


Satan wants to destroy all nations, not just Israel.



Again I will say " I will bless Israel but I will also worship Christ"

I cretainlly won't despise Israel by not Honoring them or praying for them and the peace the bible talks about.


We are true Israel.

Paul

Prophecy Man
Jun 16th 2008, 04:16 PM
Your answer to me is a side step to continue not believing God almighty will be Glorified through the nation of israel. As I stated a person can make the scriptures to support any belief they want and they have that
right given by God Himself.

Again

History supports Israel was many times been at the brink of total distruction. The Church was called out all nations to Join that group of people for savation. I have read all about the Gentiles entering into the
" New Covenant " which was instituted at the last supper to twelve people who were of Jewish nationality. You are right these people became
one through the shed blood Christ Himself. Without His shed blood no one would be saved.

Let me ask you a question --Did you know the so called Palestinions deny Israel exist? The Palestinions say the Jews stole the Land from them?

What land are they fighting over?
Why is it a battle over Jerusalem also?
Who has been protecting Israel all these years?

and now my last Question.... The word says in many places that God will be gloriefied through the nation of israel when her enemies sourround her and God Himself has to entervene or face total distruction. (Ezek 36-39)

. Just how can God be glorified through a church that promoltes homosexuality, same sex marriage and send money to the televangelist and God will bless you ministry? What church do you belong to that is known through out the world that brings Glory to God? Just how does it work if this is all the world sees. Movies and T V programs that distort Christianity so that the average person who wants to know the truth won't recognized the truth because of the Lie being promoted in and throught society. Just how can the church Glorify God in this atmosphear?Certainly many Born again bible believing , would not turn from following Christ saints are attending these churches?

I can tell you how God will , not can , be Glorified through israel because the Church is under attack spiturally but not physically.

Israel is in constant danger every day and her existance is a threat to world peace yet God will not use her to Gloriofy His name because she has rejected Christ. Why this is what happened to Saul, he hated and destroyed the Church but God saw fit to save him and bring glory to his name. God said the same thing to Ananias that he said to Ezekael
" He is a chosen vessel to (Future) suffer for My ( God's ) name sake. " God said the same stuff to His prophets only
He was refering to His Heratage Israel.

You say God won't use these people ---- looks like all the evedence is in history.

Doug

Naphal
Jun 16th 2008, 10:29 PM
I want to add something that might be overlooked.

"Israel" was name that belonged to no one until God re-named Jacob and thus all of Jacob's children shared in that name. Just as God took that name and placed it on Jacob, he can take it away and give it to someone else! That's what happened. Now there are the racial, former Israelites and the new every-race Israel commonly known as spiritual Israel.

fewarechosen
Jun 16th 2008, 11:50 PM
there is neither greek nor jew so why all the fuss about a people who call themselves something and live on a piece of land.

thats some old time national pride. nothing to do with god.

jewel4Christ
Jun 16th 2008, 11:58 PM
there is neither greek nor jew so why all the fuss about a people who call themselves something and live on a piece of land.

thats some old time national pride. nothing to do with god.

Amen to that.





peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 17th 2008, 12:03 AM
Wanted to add something for emphasis....

What that nation over there needs is the same message that God sent HIS people out to preach/teach..."repent and believe".

They don't need to be fed the lies of the false prophets that they are somehow special, outside of Christ...


That is what is helping to keep them in their blindness, in mho....just like hiding the truth from a spoiled child, it only makes him/her more self centered.

peaceandlove,

janet

wpm
Jun 17th 2008, 01:04 AM
Your answer to me is a side step to continue not believing God almighty will be Glorified through the nation of israel. As I stated a person can make the scriptures to support any belief they want and they have that
right given by God Himself.

Again

History supports Israel was many times been at the brink of total distruction. The Church was called out all nations to Join that group of people for savation. I have read all about the Gentiles entering into the
" New Covenant " which was instituted at the last supper to twelve people who were of Jewish nationality. You are right these people became
one through the shed blood Christ Himself. Without His shed blood no one would be saved.

Let me ask you a question --Did you know the so called Palestinions deny Israel exist? The Palestinions say the Jews stole the Land from them?

What land are they fighting over?
Why is it a battle over Jerusalem also?
Who has been protecting Israel all these years?

and now my last Question.... The word says in many places that God will be gloriefied through the nation of israel when her enemies sourround her and God Himself has to entervene or face total distruction. (Ezek 36-39)

. Just how can God be glorified through a church that promoltes homosexuality, same sex marriage and send money to the televangelist and God will bless you ministry? What church do you belong to that is known through out the world that brings Glory to God? Just how does it work if this is all the world sees. Movies and T V programs that distort Christianity so that the average person who wants to know the truth won't recognized the truth because of the Lie being promoted in and throught society. Just how can the church Glorify God in this atmosphear?Certainly many Born again bible believing , would not turn from following Christ saints are attending these churches?

I can tell you how God will , not can , be Glorified through israel because the Church is under attack spiturally but not physically.

Israel is in constant danger every day and her existance is a threat to world peace yet God will not use her to Gloriofy His name because she has rejected Christ. Why this is what happened to Saul, he hated and destroyed the Church but God saw fit to save him and bring glory to his name. God said the same thing to Ananias that he said to Ezekael
" He is a chosen vessel to (Future) suffer for My ( God's ) name sake. " God said the same stuff to His prophets only
He was refering to His Heratage Israel.

You say God won't use these people ---- looks like all the evedence is in history.

Doug

There has been many nations near extinction over this past 2,000 yrs. Many have obtained nationhood in recent yrs.

Did Israel return to Palestine in obedience or disobeidience?

Paul

Prophecy Man
Jun 17th 2008, 03:17 PM
Glad you asked did they come into the land in obedience or un obedience.
I might add, Unbelief or un belief also.

They entered the land in unbelief,yes, and were they disobedient
.Can't say because of all the persecutin and all they were at a point they had to do something or be persecuted forever. Who gave them the desire to enter the land of their forfathers? I think the enemy was used of God to motovate them. They sought God to return and God himself brought them back into the land as the word says they would enter in in unbelief.
I am giving you a portion of scripture and ask that you read it and give me some comments about it.

Ezek 20 : 1-43

Jeremiah 18 God said he would remake them ( Israel ) not give their name to another nation. God said the other nations he would bring in through of them. Quite different.

God bless you all

Doug

quiet dove
Jun 17th 2008, 05:40 PM
Glad you asked did they come into the land in obedience or un obedience.
I might add, Unbelief or un belief also.

They entered the land in unbelief,yes, and were they disobedient
.Can't say because of all the persecutin and all they were at a point they had to do something or be persecuted forever. Who gave them the desire to enter the land of their forfathers? I think the enemy was used of God to motovate them. They sought God to return and God himself brought them back into the land as the word says they would enter in in unbelief.
I am giving you a portion of scripture and ask that you read it and give me some comments about it.

Ezek 20 : 1-43

Jeremiah 18 God said he would remake them ( Israel ) not give their name to another nation. God said the other nations he would bring in through of them. Quite different.

God bless you all

Doug

Not to jump in the middle of the conversation and am not going to do that further than to just add this thought.

I understand that the Jews are in disobedience due to their rejection of Christ and that anyone saved must be saved through Christ. However, the Jews still worship the true God the Father. That may not make them 'saved' through Christ, but it also does not equate to worshiping Buddah or Allah or a tree. God the Father is still the true God and they still believe in Him, though they need Christ and are in disobedience, they still are not worshiping a false God.

So though they came back to the land in disobedience, rejecting Christ as the One who fulfilled their Messianic prophecies, they did not come back in disbelief in the one true God of their fathers. And scripture, I believe, teaches they will realize their mistake of rejecting Jesus.

Just wanted to add that thought, sorry for the interruption.

jewel4Christ
Jun 17th 2008, 09:02 PM
I understand that the Jews are in disobedience due to their rejection of Christ and that anyone saved must be saved through Christ. However, the Jews still worship the true God the Father. That may not make them 'saved' through Christ, but it also does not equate to worshiping Buddah or Allah or a tree. God the Father is still the true God and they still believe in Him, though they need Christ and are in disobedience, they still are not worshiping a false God.

So though they came back to the land in disobedience, rejecting Christ as the One who fulfilled their Messianic prophecies, they did not come back in disbelief in the one true God of their fathers. And scripture, I believe, teaches they will realize their mistake of rejecting Jesus.

Just wanted to add that thought, sorry for the interruption.

I don't agree with this. Jesus Himself said they had satan as their spiritual father.

It is not wise to paint an antichrist, people as less than what they are, for this type of thing is what is keeping them from repenting, in mho...


It is written in the prophets that it is the false prophets that are causing them to remain blind....by telling them such as this.


peaceandlove,

janet

wpm
Jun 17th 2008, 09:15 PM
Not to jump in the middle of the conversation and am not going to do that further than to just add this thought.

I understand that the Jews are in disobedience due to their rejection of Christ and that anyone saved must be saved through Christ. However, the Jews still worship the true God the Father. That may not make them 'saved' through Christ, but it also does not equate to worshiping Buddah or Allah or a tree. God the Father is still the true God and they still believe in Him, though they need Christ and are in disobedience, they still are not worshiping a false God.

So though they came back to the land in disobedience, rejecting Christ as the One who fulfilled their Messianic prophecies, they did not come back in disbelief in the one true God of their fathers. And scripture, I believe, teaches they will realize their mistake of rejecting Jesus.

Just wanted to add that thought, sorry for the interruption.

If they are not in Christ they are of their father the devil. This is the very thinking that dilutes what a child of God is or a chosen vessel is. They are saved or lost, God's or the devil's, heaven or hell. There is no in-between people like ytou portray.

Paul

wpm
Jun 17th 2008, 09:18 PM
Glad you asked did they come into the land in obedience or un obedience.
I might add, Unbelief or un belief also.

They entered the land in unbelief,yes, and were they disobedient
.Can't say because of all the persecutin and all they were at a point they had to do something or be persecuted forever. Who gave them the desire to enter the land of their forfathers? I think the enemy was used of God to motovate them. They sought God to return and God himself brought them back into the land as the word says they would enter in in unbelief.
I am giving you a portion of scripture and ask that you read it and give me some comments about it.

Ezek 20 : 1-43

Jeremiah 18 God said he would remake them ( Israel ) not give their name to another nation. God said the other nations he would bring in through of them. Quite different.

God bless you all

Doug

Christ is the only land they need. They need to get their eyes of the natural and the earthly and put in upon Christ and the spiritual. They have only taken a small portion of the former Promised Land. This is not a biblical return but a man-made attempt to manipulate things.

Paul

John146
Jun 17th 2008, 09:25 PM
Not to jump in the middle of the conversation and am not going to do that further than to just add this thought.

I understand that the Jews are in disobedience due to their rejection of Christ and that anyone saved must be saved through Christ. However, the Jews still worship the true God the Father. That may not make them 'saved' through Christ, but it also does not equate to worshiping Buddah or Allah or a tree. God the Father is still the true God and they still believe in Him, though they need Christ and are in disobedience, they still are not worshiping a false God.

So though they came back to the land in disobedience, rejecting Christ as the One who fulfilled their Messianic prophecies, they did not come back in disbelief in the one true God of their fathers. And scripture, I believe, teaches they will realize their mistake of rejecting Jesus.

Just wanted to add that thought, sorry for the interruption.

What you're saying does not line up with what the following scriptures tell us:

41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. - John 8:41-42

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. - John 14:6-7

23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also. - John 15:23

These people who you say are worshiping God the Father also reject Christ. So, they are not truly worshiping the Father because they are not worshiping Christ. As Christ Himself said, "He that hateth me hateth my Father also.". Those people you are talking about think they "have one Father, even God", just as the Pharisees did. But Jesus says that if God is their Father, they would love Him. So, if they don't love Jesus how can they be worshiping the Father? They can't. If they truly want to worship the Father then they will repent and put their faith in His Son.

fewarechosen
Jun 17th 2008, 09:25 PM
if you reject christ you reject god.

you cant get to the father except through the son

jewel4Christ
Jun 17th 2008, 09:28 PM
Christ is the only land they need. They need to get their eyes of the natural and the earthly and put in upon Christ and the spiritual. They have only taken a small portion of the former Promised Land. This is not a biblical return but a man-made attempt to manipulate things.

Paul Hi Paul,

I agree. It is even written in God's word that it is the spirit of frogs/which are NOT GOD, whom are leading this world to armagheddon...and, he is using the fleshly nations whom REJECT the true way to PEACE, which is through Jesus alone, to do so.

...it is shocking to think that so many today think God is behind this.


peaceandlove,

janet

quiet dove
Jun 18th 2008, 02:27 AM
I have never said they could get saved without Christ and I very clearly said they were in disobedience. What God do they worship, buddah, allah, are they hindu maybe, cows, rats?

Are you calling the God taught about in the Torah a false God?

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 03:45 AM
I have never said they could get saved without Christ and I very clearly said they were in disobedience. What God do they worship, buddah, allah, are they hindu maybe, cows, rats?

Are you calling the God taught about in the Torah a false God?

I think that we are looking at this from the perspective that if one does not worship Jesus, and accept HIM as God that they are antichrist/ and have satan as their spiritual father.

In reality, anyone whom is not in Jesus is not worshipping the true God, because JESUS is God come in the flesh...the bible makes it plain if you do not have Jesus, you do NOT have the Father. I don't think it is not that complicated....k?

peaceandlove,

janet

wpm
Jun 18th 2008, 04:32 AM
I have never said they could get saved without Christ and I very clearly said they were in disobedience. What God do they worship, buddah, allah, are they hindu maybe, cows, rats?

Are you calling the God taught about in the Torah a false God?

Muslims claim allegiance to the God of the OT - yet they are not saved. The Roman Church claims faith in Christ but it is apostate. True worship to Jehovah is found in Christ. If a Jew rejects Christ (like the overwhelming nation does) then they are off their father the devil. They are antichrist and the wrath of God is upon Israel - like every other apostate nation.

Only the new birth brings a man into favour with God. A Jew or Gentile that is not born again is on his way to hell unless he repents. Israelites for 2,000 yrs have been rejecting Christ in large numbers.

No they are not worshipping my God or they would be reconciled to Christ.

1 John 5:10-12 says, “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”

II John 1:9-10 says, “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Jesus said, in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

Paul

Mograce2U
Jun 18th 2008, 05:37 AM
For QD,
Was Esau not a Jew? Yet after he rejected his birthright he fathered a nation which became the arch-enemy of Israel. The bible tells us that he despised the gift of God and that God hated him. So how can he be a true worshipper of God in that position? Israel as a nation today is as Edom in relationship to God's Church. She is become the enemy of Christ because she too despises her birthright which is Christ and opposes the people of God which WE are - not her. And unless she repents she will die in her sins, having missed the purposes of God first promised to her altogether.

If Israel has been set up for anything in these last days, it would seem in her current state of unbelief; it is for her final fall, not her rising again.

(1 Sam 15:23 KJV) For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

To reject Christ is to abandon all hope of salvation.

Merton
Jun 18th 2008, 09:53 AM
Consider these things.


Here we have it! We the redeemed Church are the true circumcision today. That is Scripture speaking, not man's opinion.


Paul the apostle spoke of the need for believers to be circumcised in their hearts by the Spirit of God. Therefore it is not automatic that every believer is spritually circumcised until he/she is.----


Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.


God is also King of all the nations today, not just natural Israel.


I doubt that to be true. Christ is the King of Kings of a new creation rulership yet to be revealed upon the earth--


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become thekingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshiped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.


Until then it is said of the nations in the endtimes--


Mat 24:9 Then they will deliver you up to affliction, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

Including Israel of the middle east.



The kingdom will be restored to Israel ( Acts 1 : 9 )
Jesus promised " you ( Israel ) will not see me again UNTILL
you say blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord " ( math 23 : 27-29)

This is the reason Satan has been furously trying to wipe out Israel and
Satan has clouded the truth so that He can ultimatly be greater than
( sound familiar ) God. If he can put an end to Israel there won't be a
Jerusalem or a people called Israelites to come back to.

Jews have been repenting at the hearing of the gospel for 2 millenia.

The scripture actually states that they have to say "blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord" which is before the Lord returns.

I am not going to make the mistake of instructing the enemies of God as to who they should target in their fury against God, but we know that satan working through Hitler got it all wrong, so we must not educate him.

Remember that the apostle of the Jews says that the Jew was Germany at one time, and that the German Jew is not even related to Israel except by Judaism, for they are Kashazis who incidently are mentioned in Gog and Magog in Ezekiel. (so much for the flesh)

If any claim to God or the land is made through descendancy of the flesh then very few are genuinely so, or nearly everybody in Europe and America is.

The western church wants to fight for Israel of the flesh. Well let them.

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.


I don't agree with this. Jesus Himself said they had satan as their spiritual father.

It is not wise to paint an antichrist, people as less than what they are, for this type of thing is what is keeping them from repenting, in mho...

Only people of the nation who reject Jesus Christ can be termed anti-christ, as for people of any nation like in the western nations.

Yes it is unwise to speak of people of any nation who have not accepted Jesus Christ as being Gods people for there is no claim on God through ones race or nation or religion.

The danger in blanketing people of any race, religion, or nations as being anti-christ, is that it may discourage the person who is seeking God among them who is not anti-christ.

All nations are in the same category at the moment including the western ones, as God's Israel is not yet gathered together from among the nations, both living and dead, resurrected and mortal, and it is only this gathered together nation which Gog and Magog comes against and not before.

Many foolish believers will lose their lives needlessly defending Israel, as they have in attacking Iraq. Many believers in Iraq have lost their lives as well through this foolish anti-christs actions.


If they are not in Christ they are of their father the devil. This is the very thinking that dilutes what a child of God is or a chosen vessel is. They are saved or lost, God's or the devil's, heaven or hell. There is no in-between people like ytou portray.

Tell me Paul M,

Are your children the children of the devil from birth or are they children of God from birth???

Your answer will probably contradict your own teaching.


Christ is the only land they need. They need to get their eyes of the natural and the earthly and put in upon Christ and the spiritual. They have only taken a small portion of the former Promised Land. This is not a biblical return but a man-made attempt to manipulate things.

Oh yes. God even assists mankind to deceive himself if they do not believe Him to do what He has promised at the proper time, and what such men consider to be the realization of the promise, the works of their own hands, God rejects.(Ishmael -Absolum-temple of stone.)



They entered the land in unbelief,yes, and were they disobedient
.Can't say because of all the persecutin and all they were at a point they had to do something or be persecuted forever. Who gave them the desire to enter the land of their forfathers? I think the enemy was used of God to motovate them. They sought God to return and God himself brought them back into the land as the word says they would enter in in unbelief.

NO, the word of God does NOT say that His children would enter the land in unbelief.

That is terrible wrong and contradicts everything in the Bible on the matter.-- Read Heb.ch 4.

Deu 30:1 And it shall be when all these things have come on you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you among all the nations where Jehovah your God shall banish you, you shall bring back to your heart these things;
Deu 30:2 and shall turn back to Jehovah your God and listen to His voice, according to all that I am commanding you today, you and your sons with all your heart, and with all your soul;
Deu 30:3 then Jehovah your God will turn your captivity, and He will have pity on you, and will return and gather you from all the nations where Jehovah your God has scattered you.
Deu 30:4 If you are cast out to the end of the heavens, Jehovah your God shall gather you from there, and He shall take you from there.


Eze 20:33As I live, says the Lord Jehovah, Surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will reign over you.
Eze 20:34 And I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands in which you are scattered among them with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out.
Eze 20:35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and I will be judging face to face there with you.
Eze 20:36 Just as I was judging your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will be judging you, declares the Lord Jehovah.
Eze 20:37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant.
Eze 20:38 And I will purge from among you the rebels and the transgressors against Me. I will bring them out of the land where they reside, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am Jehovah.



These people who you say are worshiping God the Father also reject Christ. So, they are not truly worshiping the Father because they are not worshiping Christ. As Christ Himself said, "He that hateth me hateth my Father also.". Those people you are talking about think they "have one Father, even God", just as the Pharisees did. But Jesus says that if God is their Father, they would love Him. So, if they don't love Jesus how can they be worshiping the Father? They can't. If they truly want to worship the Father then they will repent and put their faith in His Son.

People who worship God of the OT bible are not all anti-christ, the same as not all who go to church out of respect for God, are anti-christ because they do so either.

Many attending Christian churches are like many of the Jews also because they believe God and have not yet come to a saving knowledge of Christ and the Holy Spirit has not fallen on them..

The point is that many Jews do not believe in God at all and they are just like the western nations in that the national religion confesses God the creator, and many of the Jews do believe that the messiah will come and save them but just not that Jesus of the western church bears any likeness to the Messiah that they expect from reading the OT and frankly the Jesus of much of the western church does not line up with the Messiah of the NT either. The real error is in following governments, religions or other people.

What we have to do is see that the anti-christ of the Jewish nation is the hardliner fanatic in the black hats which is a minority of the people, who many of the people of Israel who do believe that Jesus is the Messiah are afraid of, and others just have not even heard or read the NT.


So if we want to single out Israel of the middle east as being anti-christ or Gods people, then the same thing applies to every other nation as well.

Especially in view that much of the western nations influence stemmed from the scattered Jews of all tribes to whom the gospel went first, at the first preaching of the early church into all of the world, which will also occur at the last in the same fashion by Christians scattered for the same reasons.


Mar 16:15 And He said to them, Going into all the world, preach the gospel to all the creation.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the earth for a testimony to all the nations, and then will come the end.

Merton.

ShirleyFord
Jun 18th 2008, 12:06 PM
Merton,

Those who claim today that Jesus has not already come in the flesh as their Messiah, Savior and Deliverer are antichrist, whether they are Jews or Gentiles and regardless of what nation or geographical location they come from:


1 Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

There are not two different Gods, as dispensationalism taught me to believe for many years and as many Christians today are taught to believe:

1. The God of the OT

God the Father
The God of the Jews of the OT
The God of modern-day religious Jews who reject Christ
2. The God of the NT

God the Son, Jesus Christ
The God of the Church of the NT
The God of the modern-day Gentiles who put their trust in Him
But Jesus said this to those Jews who rejected Him but claimed that their father was God since they kept the law of Moses:

Mt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Lk 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

According to Jesus, the only way that anyone can know the Father God is through His Son who is the only One who reveals the Father since He is the only One who knows the Father.

And He went on to declare:

Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So it is impossible to worship God the Father while rejecting His Son.

What about those who claim that Jesus is truly the Christ, the promised Messiah, and even do great miracles in Jesus name but they are not truly born again?

Jesus warned of those also during His earthly ministry:

Mt 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Lk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; And the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



Shirley

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 01:51 PM
Muslims claim allegiance to the God of the OT - yet they are not saved. The Roman Church claims faith in Christ but it is apostate. True worship to Jehovah is found in Christ. If a Jew rejects Christ (like the overwhelming nation does) then they are off their father the devil. They are antichrist and the wrath of God is upon Israel - like every other apostate nation.
Who are you to judge who is saved and who isn't? Our only purpose here is to love ALL our bretheren on the earth, not just Gentiles.

Last time I checked Jesus gave us two commandments. Love God with all our heart and mind and soul, and love our neighbors as ourselves.

Was there a third commandment that said "thou shalt condemn those not claiming Christ as their personal Lord and Savior."?

John146
Jun 18th 2008, 02:09 PM
I have never said they could get saved without Christ and I very clearly said they were in disobedience. What God do they worship, buddah, allah, are they hindu maybe, cows, rats?

Are you calling the God taught about in the Torah a false God?

In the following passage, who did the religious Jews Jesus was speaking to think they were worshiping?

40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. - John 8:40-44

They thought the God of the Bible was their Father. But Jesus said their father was the devil. How can someone worship the Father without worshiping Christ? You are mistaken in thinking these people who reject Christ are actually worshiping the Father. They are not. Outwardly, it may seem that way, but inwardly it is not the case. I'm not speaking of anyone who might be genuinely searching for truth and hasn't found it yet. I'm speaking of those who are just like the scribes and Pharisees.

27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. - Matthew 23:27-28

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 02:36 PM
Quote:
I don't agree with this. Jesus Himself said they had satan as their spiritual father.

It is not wise to paint an antichrist, people as less than what they are, for this type of thing is what is keeping them from repenting, in mho...

Only people of the nation who reject Jesus Christ can be termed anti-christ, as for people of any nation like in the western nations.



I agree. Rejecting Jesus Christ is the key here. That is what I said.



Yes it is unwise to speak of people of any nation who have not accepted Jesus Christ as being Gods people for there is no claim on God through ones race or nation or religion.

Agreed again....;)


The danger in blanketing people of any race, religion, or nations as being anti-christ, is that it may discourage the person who is seeking God among them who is not anti-christ.

If they do not reject Jesus Christ individually, yes, they are not antichrist. I was speaking as a "nation" though....


All nations are in the same category at the moment including the western ones, as God's Israel is not yet gathered together from among the nations, both living and dead, resurrected and mortal, and it is only this gathered together nation which Gog and Magog comes against and not before.


I agree.



Many foolish believers will lose their lives needlessly defending Israel, as they have in attacking Iraq. Many believers in Iraq have lost their lives as well through this foolish anti-christs actions.


I agree. You are either of the kingdom of God, or standing on the outside, and are of the world. There is no in between. If you fight with the world, you are most likely to die with the world.

That is my stance.

There is no middle ground with Jesus.

You either accept Him as God, or you don't.

However, I do believe He will have the last word on whom was sincerely blinded, of no fault of their own, and whom was willfully blinded...for I do see a difference in that.

For that reason I would not judge any man's ultimate salvation, because, God alone can judge the inner man and his heart, but, to say that someone is not antichrist, if they deny Jesus has come in the flesh as God, is also not correct.


They must hear the truth, or else how would they know to come to Him, for salvation?


peaceandlove,

janet

Prophecy Man
Jun 18th 2008, 04:25 PM
Again, who did God save at the crossing of the Jordan River?
History as I have said supports a people called Jews that has been
persecuited and hated for centuries because they at one time
rejected Christ.
I do believe no other nation has been persecuted for this reason.
Also no nation has been at the brink of distruction " many times "
to survive and exist in other counties as a nation to finally end up
back where they started from.
Joel chapter three states God brought them into the vally of Descision
" Because they have parted my land ". The ones that have parted the land will be judged for that reason.
Why did not any one comment on the passage I gave --Ezek 20 --
the whole chapter? You might find a chapter stating " they were punished
for their sins " , not only for rejecting Christ. You will also find out they will repent of their sins and call on God Almighty.

I didn't think anyone would take a chance and read the pasage i gave
because it supports a people prophecied to be brought back to the land and
I ( God ) will plead with them face to face.

With all the evidence around you why do you persist in denying these
people are survivers unparrelled throught history.

The God of Islam is not the same God of the Old testement for it states in the Koran " God has no son " and even on the Dome of the Rock this same statement of the Koran is printed on it. The muslims laugh at the thought of God having a son. Their God says to kill their enemy, Hang him , hunt him down and kill him and terrorize him.

Our bible says in the Old and the new " love your enemy " which Christ said in the sermon on the mount.

when you state the God of the koran is the God of the Old Testement
you could'nt be more wrong. Why ask any muslim and they will tell you the same.

Doug

wpm
Jun 18th 2008, 05:24 PM
Who are you to judge who is saved and who isn't? Our only purpose here is to love ALL our bretheren on the earth, not just Gentiles.

Last time I checked Jesus gave us two commandments. Love God with all our heart and mind and soul, and love our neighbors as ourselves.

Was there a third commandment that said "thou shalt condemn those not claiming Christ as their personal Lord and Savior."?

I love the brethren.

Who are the brethren in your estimation?

Paul

Mograce2U
Jun 18th 2008, 05:27 PM
Doug, #177 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1676718&postcount=177)
I think the problem you might be having as you read Ezekiel 20 is in seeing that it was ultimately fulfilled in the coming of Christ. For it was then that God pleaded with the people "face to face".

wpm
Jun 18th 2008, 05:28 PM
Again, who did God save at the crossing of the Jordan River?
History as I have said supports a people called Jews that has been
persecuited and hated for centuries because they at one time
rejected Christ.
I do believe no other nation has been persecuted for this reason.
Also no nation has been at the brink of distruction " many times "
to survive and exist in other counties as a nation to finally end up
back where they started from.
Joel chapter three states God brought them into the vally of Descision
" Because they have parted my land ". The ones that have parted the land will be judged for that reason.
Why did not any one comment on the passage I gave --Ezek 20 --
the whole chapter? You might find a chapter stating " they were punished
for their sins " , not only for rejecting Christ. You will also find out they will repent of their sins and call on God Almighty.

I didn't think anyone would take a chance and read the pasage i gave
because it supports a people prophecied to be brought back to the land and
I ( God ) will plead with them face to face.

With all the evidence around you why do you persist in denying these
people are survivers unparrelled throught history.

The God of Islam is not the same God of the Old testement for it states in the Koran " God has no son " and even on the Dome of the Rock this same statement of the Koran is printed on it. The muslims laugh at the thought of God having a son. Their God says to kill their enemy, Hang him , hunt him down and kill him and terrorize him.

Our bible says in the Old and the new " love your enemy " which Christ said in the sermon on the mount.

when you state the God of the koran is the God of the Old Testement
you could'nt be more wrong. Why ask any muslim and they will tell you the same.

Doug

I don't think you are reading my posts. The unsaved Muslim and Jew today purport to believe in the OT God - they both accept this book, but they reject the God of the OT. They reject the Lord Jesus Christ, they reject the cross. An unsaved Jew is the unsaved Gentile, they are of their father the devil. The only person on this earth that belongs to God is a born again Christian.

Paul

Naphal
Jun 18th 2008, 08:29 PM
Again, who did God save at the crossing of the Jordan River?
History as I have said supports a people called Jews that has been
persecuited and hated for centuries because they at one time
rejected Christ.

I think you also forget that they rejected God in the OT for false Gods are were punished many times by God himself. What you are seeing through history is a people that continue to reject God and that same God putting them through tribulations to try to shock them into coming back to Him. BTW, the Jews are not the only peoples that have been persecuted and come to the brink of extinction many times. This happens in the 3rd world countries nearly on a daily basis so get out into the whole world and do some research and study on these things ;)

quiet dove
Jun 18th 2008, 09:43 PM
peaceandlove,
janet



Paul


For QD,
Was Esau not a Jew?


In the following passage, who did the religious Jews Jesus was speaking to think they were worshiping?

- Matthew 23:27-28

Trying to save space and help on my confusion with so many post guys

I am not saying that anyone, including the Jews can be saved any other way than through Christ, without Him they are certainly in disobedience and lost. It goes back to the promises made by God that are not null and void.

It is not because of who or what Israel is that will bring about the fulfillment of those promises, it is because of who and what God is. The OT states this, I cant remember where the verses are but will hunt them.

Esau selling his birthright did not stop God from making His promises on to Jacob. Just like when He brings about opening the eyes of Israel, all those who in the past rejected Christ will not prevent Him from bringing about His purpose and His promises. It does not have anything to do with who or what Israel is, but who and what God is, just like any man ever saved was saved because of who and what God is, not who or what the man is.

And the Muslims, if they held the OT as their holy scriptures would not even recognize Mohammad or Allah or their Koran.

The religious Jews were in disobedience before Christ arrived and their sacrifices and legalities God did not desire. Same goes now for any one, Jew or Gentile, even Christians. If the heart is not right, we are in disobedience. And I agree, the Jews rejecting Christ are in disobedience. But disobedience has never prevented God from working His purpose before, all of us here are believers and saved right. He will accomplish His purpose in bringing, at some point, Israel to be a nation serving Jesus Christ.

They still, though lost in disobedience, are not worshiping buddah or allah. Though lost in disobedience, still believe the promises of a coming Messiah. Unfortunately, very very unfortunately, their disobedience in having rejected Jesus leaves them to this prophecy.

Joh 5:43 I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.

This of course is very serious. There will be many who fall for the AC. But also very unfortunately, there are many Christians who reject there will even be this false one to come. Hopefully the true Christians, knowing the voice of their Shepard, will see this false one whether they believe he is coming or not, like any other false one that has come and gone that they recognized as false. And together we can be the warning cry for all the lost who will follow the false.

And even though they are lost and in disobedience, they still hope in the God who had the prophets pen the words written in the OT. Doesn't make them saved, but it does not make them hoping in allah or buddah either.

That is all I was saying and didn't intend to get into so much otherwise so I will drop it. If I find those verses here soon, I will stick them in this post.

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 09:56 PM
I love the brethren.

Who are the brethren in your estimation?

Paul

I can see your confusion. Usually we call brothers and sisters in Christ bretheren.

In this context I was saying we are to love the entire human family. It is not our place to condemn others to hell no matter what their affiliation. Our place is to love the entire human family and help them find Christ in whatever way we can till we enter the sabbath. Then God's judgement will deal with the rest.

Don't be so quick to hand out death and judgement for you might be surprised to find out who is fulfilling God's will and who isn't.

I know I was.

Revelation 16:12 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+16:12&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+16&version=9)
And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

After God's final judgement on the earth the kings of the east will have their chance. Pray God to help you discover the secret of the kings of the east.

wpm
Jun 18th 2008, 10:01 PM
I can see your confusion. Usually we call brothers and sisters in Christ bretheren.

In this context I was saying we are to love the entire human family. It is not our place to condemn others to hell no matter what their affiliation. Our place is to love the entire human family and help them find Christ in whatever way we can till we enter the sabbath. Then God's judgement will deal with the rest.

Don't be so quick to hand out death and judgement for you might be surprised to find out who is fulfilling God's will and who isn't.

I know I was.

Revelation 16:12 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+16:12&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+16&version=9)
And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

After God's final judgement on the earth the kings of the east will have their chance. Pray God to help you discover the secret of the kings of the east.

God is interested in hearts not race. Anyone that bows their heart to Jesus will be delivered. Assigning God's favour to a Christ-rejecter is wrong.

Paul

Merton
Jun 19th 2008, 01:20 AM
I don't think you are reading my posts. The unsaved Muslim and Jew today purport to believe in the OT God - they both accept this book, but they reject the God of the OT. They reject the Lord Jesus Christ, they reject the cross. An unsaved Jew is the unsaved Gentile, they are of their father the devil. The only person on this earth that belongs to God is a born again Christian.

Paul

It is a mistake to regard all Muslims and Jews to be of their father the devil just because they are Muslims and Jews or gentiles.

Many muslims regard all westerners as being of satan just because they are westerners and regard all Christians as being Roman Catholics.

We ought not do the same to Muslims and Jews.

Not all Jews were of their father the devil when Jesus spoke to Jews then, and they are not all of their father the devil just because the State religion is anti-christ today.

As I pointed out before, the western nations confess Christ yet serve the devil in many ways, so which is worse in Gods eyes, and which will receive the most stripes?

Speaking for myself, I was never a child of the devil before I was born from above.

Becoming a child of the devil involves reasoned responses to the devil and his lies and spirit, in much the same way as the Amorites became worthy of being destroyed by God.

Let me put in rememberance that Joseph ruled over all Egypt and its non-born again, inhabitants.

Do we suppose that Joseph ruled under Satan the King of Egypt and over subjects whose father was the devil??

Of course not. That style of thinking is wrong and often has resulted in wars between persons and nations by saying that they are of the devil but we are of God, instead of being kind to those who hate us and speaking kind words to them encouraging them to repent from dead works and to serve the living God, (not dropping bombs on them.)

The Christian response to evil is to stop being evil ourselves and bless our enemies even more, and if they hate and kill us for that then let God take care of that , but we and our loved ones who agree with us in this, will be safe for eternity. Do the Christians not even believe what God says?)

Let God Himself condemn other people if He wants to, but we are not called to do that.

Is it so hard to learn?

We are called to speak the truth without pointing it at anyone. God will do the convicting and if not then it is none of our business to say that a person, race, religion, or nation is evil.(or good)


Read what Paul said and did---

Act 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offense toward God, and toward men.
Act 24:17 Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation, and offerings.
Act 24:18 Whereupon certain Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with multitude, nor with tumult.
Act 24:19 Who ought to have been here before thee, and object, if they had aught against me.
Act 24:20 Or else let these same here say, if they have found any evil doing in me, while I stood before the council,
Act 24:21 Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day.

1Co 10:32 Give none offense, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
1Co 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

Mat 19:17 And He said to him, Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One, God! But if you desire to enter into life, keep the commandments.

Merton.












Merton.

Merton
Jun 19th 2008, 01:47 AM
Again, who did God save at the crossing of the Jordan River?
History as I have said supports a people called Jews that has been
persecuited and hated for centuries because they at one time
rejected Christ.
I do believe no other nation has been persecuted for this reason.

Doug

No,

The Jews among the nations have been persecuted for being separatist, in defiance of Gods command to mix with the nations, yet repent and be separate in their hearts and minds, being a witness to the people of the nations where they are scattered to, of a Holy attitude bought about in them by the Holy Spirit which God blesses, and in the very things that the nations strive to obtain in an ungodly attitude which leads them to loose the things they fight for.

The true believer does not have to strive or fight or remain separatists from other cultures in order to be blessed by God and be a witness.

The Christians strength is in their rest in the hands of their Father who knows what they need, and with what they should have from His hands to witness with, which can vary depending on what people they are among.

For example, if in prison then full of grace, peace, and hope, in an otherwise hopeless situation.



Merton.

jewel4Christ
Jun 19th 2008, 05:05 AM
Hi Mert,


Let God Himself condemn other people if He wants to, but we are not called to do that.

Is it so hard to learn?

We are called to speak the truth without pointing it at anyone. God will do the convicting and if not then it is none of our business to say that a person, race, religion, or nation is evil.(or good)

I agree with you here..we are not called to condemn, or judge...and, yes, God will convict.

peaceandlove,

janet

wpm
Jun 19th 2008, 05:17 AM
Hi Mert,



I agree with you here..we are not called to condemn, or judge...and, yes, God will convict.

peaceandlove,

janet

It is not us that condemns men but the word of God. The Christ rejecter is condemned by the Word. That is not to say there is no hope, but a sinner is a sinner. People don't like categorising people into 2 groups: saved (those of their heavenly Father), lost (those of their father the devil). However, this is an ongoing reality in the Word from the start.

Paul

jewel4Christ
Jun 19th 2008, 05:54 AM
It is not us that condemns men but the word of God. The Christ rejecter is condemned by the Word. That is not to say there is no hope, but a sinner is a sinner. People don't like categorising people into 2 groups: saved (those of their heavenly Father), lost (those of their father the devil). However, this is an ongoing reality in the Word from the start.

Paul

Hi Paul,

....I have thought long and hard about this, and even prayed about it.

The answer I got was YES< it is the word of God that condemns mankind when they are sinners, but, in reality, JESUS ALONE is the WORD OF GOD.

We are not.

It is not our place, and, He tells us everywhere in there to not judge, and, especially before the time, so, I am gonna have to go with it....;)

peaceandlove,


janet

Merton
Jun 19th 2008, 06:41 AM
It is not us that condemns men but the word of God. The Christ rejecter is condemned by the Word. That is not to say there is no hope, but a sinner is a sinner. People don't like categorising people into 2 groups: saved (those of their heavenly Father), lost (those of their father the devil). However, this is an ongoing reality in the Word from the start.

Paul

Paul,

I did ask you a question which you did not answer.

That question was after the line of--

When your children were born, then were they children of the devil or children of God seeing as they were not born-again at the time.

Merton.

9Marksfan
Jun 19th 2008, 09:10 AM
Hi Paul,

....I have thought long and hard about this, and even prayed about it.

The answer I got was YES< it is the word of God that condemns mankind when they are sinners, but, in reality, JESUS ALONE is the WORD OF GOD.

We are not.

But what about the Bible?

jewel4Christ
Jun 19th 2008, 01:57 PM
What do you mean, "what about the bible"?

The bible is a collection of the "word" of God written on paper, but, there is a greater one coming, and HE ALONE will judge all men.

I have decided to leave it for Him to decide.

He has taught us to not judge our brother.

Who is our brother?

The bible says if only those whom we love are our brother, (as in those whom are of our own household), then, we don't really understand whom our brother is.

That's all I want to say on this.....:D


peaceandlove,

janet

wpm
Jun 19th 2008, 11:26 PM
Paul,

I did ask you a question which you did not answer.

That question was after the line of--

When your children were born, then were they children of the devil or children of God seeing as they were not born-again at the time.

Merton.

I believe that there is an age of accountablity. After that their fatherhood is revealed.

Paul

wpm
Jun 19th 2008, 11:27 PM
What do you mean, "what about the bible"?

The bible is a collection of the "word" of God written on paper, but, there is a greater one coming, and HE ALONE will judge all men.

I have decided to leave it for Him to decide.

He has taught us to not judge our brother.

Who is our brother?

The bible says if only those whom we love are our brother, (as in those whom are of our own household), then, we don't really understand whom our brother is.

That's all I want to say on this.....:D


peaceandlove,

janet

Jesus says in John 6:45-48, “Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life.”

Jesus said, in John 10:1, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.”

He then goes on to explain, “I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture” (John 10:9).

Jesus said, in John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

Jesus said in John 14:21-24, “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.”

If the Jew purports to love God then they will love Christ. Jesus said in John 5:42,“But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not.”

Jesus said in John 8:42, “If God were your Father, ye would love me.”

Peter declared onto the unbelieving Jews in Acts 4:10-12, “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

Romans 8:9 says, “Now if any man have not the spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

1 Corinthians 3:11 states, “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

1 Timothy 2:5-6 expressly states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time”

1 John 5:10-12 says, “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”

II John 1:9-10 says, “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Paul

wpm
Jun 19th 2008, 11:32 PM
What do you mean, "what about the bible"?

The bible is a collection of the "word" of God written on paper, but, there is a greater one coming, and HE ALONE will judge all men.

I have decided to leave it for Him to decide.

He has taught us to not judge our brother.

Who is our brother?

The bible says if only those whom we love are our brother, (as in those whom are of our own household), then, we don't really understand whom our brother is.

That's all I want to say on this.....:D


peaceandlove,

janet

I have to disagree. Christ said: “For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother” (Matthew 12:50)

What is the will of the Father?

The Lord explains in John 6:40: “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life.”

For the committed Christian, a brother is a fellow believer, one who has surrendered his life to Christ.

Paul

Merton
Jun 19th 2008, 11:47 PM
I believe that there is an age of accountablity. After that their fatherhood is revealed.

Paul



Well, where is your scriptural evidence for this.


If this is true then a child is neither a child of the devil nor a child of God until that age, or they have been one or the other from birth, but just not revealed.




Either that or you would have to accept that there are other people in the world, who in not having heard the gospel are neither children of the devil nor children of God.



However you are attempting to say that all children are designated to be one or the other from birth, who at the age of accountability are revealed for which one that they really are.


That is not the Gospel of Christ , Paul M.


The age of accountability, whenever that is, or from birth, does not determine who one ultimately is.


In your church, do you preach to the congregation that at the age of accountability, it will be revealed whether they are raising children of the devil or children of God?


Merton.

9Marksfan
Jun 20th 2008, 12:02 AM
What do you mean, "what about the bible"?

The bible is a collection of the "word" of God written on paper, but, there is a greater one coming, and HE ALONE will judge all men.

You seem to be implying that the Bible isn't God's final word - it is, because it reveals Jesus Christ.


I have decided to leave it for Him to decide.

And do you think He will use a different standard than His word?


He has taught us to not judge our brother.

What exactly do you think that means?

Defender of Christ
Jun 20th 2008, 12:18 AM
How do Dispensationalists reconcile their enthusiasm over the 60th anniversary of the creation of the state of Israel with the fact that - as a whole - the Jews STILL hate Christ?

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0501/breaking84.htm

How are the Jews considered God's chosen people if they reject Jesus Christ?

Mograce2U
Jun 20th 2008, 01:34 AM
How are the Jews considered God's chosen people if they reject Jesus Christ?Now there is a $64,000 question! ;)

Joe King
Jun 20th 2008, 01:57 AM
How are the Jews considered God's chosen people if they reject Jesus Christ?

Because God said so? His covenant with them is still in effect and will be when Christ returns to save us all.

Naphal
Jun 20th 2008, 02:03 AM
Because God said so? His covenant with them is still in effect and will be when Christ returns to save us all.

God didn't say so and no, the covenant with them is no longer in effect.

John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

Was not Christ speaking to Jews when he said they don't know God the Father because they didn't know the son? Therefore this applies even today. Those that do not know Christ do not know his Father, God. This makes one a stranger to God despite natural bloodlines.

In fact Christ is quite direct about this fact:

John 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
John 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

The Jews Christ spoke to did not know God, neither Son nor Father. He even calls them liars for claiming they know God.

Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

Some things just don't change much.


Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

wpm
Jun 20th 2008, 03:39 AM
Because God said so? His covenant with them is still in effect and will be when Christ returns to save us all.

You obviously haven't considered what it says in NT (which has now arrived). 1 John 5:10-12 says, “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”

Could you explain this in the light of your response?

Paul

John146
Jun 20th 2008, 01:59 PM
Because God said so? His covenant with them is still in effect and will be when Christ returns to save us all.

Which covenant is that? We need to let scripture tell us who God's chosen people are.

Not God's people:

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. - Romans 9:6-8


God's people:

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. - Romans 9:6-8

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. - Gal 4:28

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Gal 3:26-29


Clearly, what determines whether a person is one of God's chosen is not race or nationality, but rather whether or not one has faith in Christ and belongs to Him. It's that simple.

resbmc
Jun 21st 2008, 01:56 PM
It says it is a mystery, but all Jews, all the house of Isreal will be saved, especially 25-32, Paul does not want Christians to be ignorant of this.

Defender of Christ
Jun 21st 2008, 03:43 PM
How do Dispensationalists reconcile their enthusiasm over the 60th anniversary of the creation of the state of Israel with the fact that - as a whole - the Jews STILL hate Christ?

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0501/breaking84.htm

How can the Jews be considered God's chosen people if they reject Jesus Christ as their Savior?

Naphal
Jun 21st 2008, 08:56 PM
It says it is a mystery, but all Jews, all the house of Isreal will be saved, especially 25-32, Paul does not want Christians to be ignorant of this.

That's not what it says. All Christians will be saved. Anyone not a Christian isn't going to be saved. The bible is quite clear on that in many places.

BroRog
Jun 21st 2008, 11:21 PM
How are the Jews considered God's chosen people if they reject Jesus Christ?

The are beloved because of their fathers. Romans 11:28

scooter2
Jun 21st 2008, 11:31 PM
Will find that resbmc is correct, this is recorded in both the old and new testaments. It says in Revelations that ALL Israel will be saved even as it is written. The even as its written comes from the old testament. The entire Bible is about the tribes of Israel and Judah, not the Christian Church much as we would like it to be that way.

Defender of Christ
Jun 21st 2008, 11:34 PM
The are beloved because of their fathers. Romans 11:28

Thanks for your answer. And by the way, I hope my question didn't sound harsh to the Jews because I didn't mean it in an ignorant manner.

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:25 AM
The are beloved because of their fathers. Romans 11:28


Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:27 AM
Will find that resbmc is correct, this is recorded in both the old and new testaments. It says in Revelations that ALL Israel will be saved even as it is written. The even as its written comes from the old testament. The entire Bible is about the tribes of Israel and Judah, not the Christian Church much as we would like it to be that way.

The first part of the bible was about a race of people, the second part is about all races who accept the Messiah. It is about the body of Christ who is the church and his bride and no other so you are gravely mistaken.

wpm
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:42 AM
Will find that resbmc is correct, this is recorded in both the old and new testaments. It says in Revelations that ALL Israel will be saved even as it is written. The even as its written comes from the old testament. The entire Bible is about the tribes of Israel and Judah, not the Christian Church much as we would like it to be that way.

Romans 9:6-8 confirms, “they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham (through the flesh), are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

This shows what "all Israel" truly is. It is not all those of Jewish birth, but those born again of God. Here natural Israeli stock is shown to carry no spiritual favour before God. Whilst Ishmael was the heir apparent the destiny was seen Isaac – the child of promise.

Paul

scooter2
Jun 22nd 2008, 07:06 AM
Will just have to argue your point with G-d, He says they will, and it isn't the Church. The Church never was Israel, and the Israel of G-d was never the Church, still isn't Biblically. The idea that the church replaced Israel is a myth unsupported Biblically. It is a man made idea.

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 07:09 AM
The idea that the church replaced Israel is a myth unsupported Biblically. It is a man made idea.

No,..... it isnt. it's a biblical fact.

scooter2
Jun 22nd 2008, 07:14 AM
It isn't, Its simply a wish list made up by errant teachers. If you wish I can show you the scripture telling all this fact. No where in the entire Bible did G-d take the promises away from Israel and give them to the Church, its a myth

scooter2
Jun 22nd 2008, 07:18 AM
11:11 I ask then, did they stumble that they might fall? May it never be! But by their fall salvation has come to the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. 11:12 Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness? 11:13 For I speak to you who are Gentiles. Since then as I am an emissary to Gentiles, I glorify my ministry; 11:14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh, and may save some of them. 11:15 For if the rejection of them is the reconciling of the world, what would their acceptance be, but life from the dead? 11:16 If the first fruit is holy, so is the lump. If the root is holy, so are the branches. 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree; 11:18 don’t boast over the branches. But if you boast, it is not you who support the root, but the root supports you. 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” 11:20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 11:21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 11:22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 11:23 They also, if they don’t continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 11:24 For if you were cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more will these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 11:25 For I don’t desire you to be ignorant, brothers, (http://www.ebible.org/bible/hnv/Romans.htm#N54) of this mystery, so that you won’t be wise in your own conceits, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved. Even as it is written,

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 07:21 AM
11:11 I ask then, did they stumble that they might fall? May it never be! But by their fall salvation has come to the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. 11:12 Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness? 11:13 For I speak to you who are Gentiles. Since then as I am an emissary to Gentiles, I glorify my ministry; 11:14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh, and may save some of them. 11:15 For if the rejection of them is the reconciling of the world, what would their acceptance be, but life from the dead? 11:16 If the first fruit is holy, so is the lump. If the root is holy, so are the branches. 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree; 11:18 don’t boast over the branches. But if you boast, it is not you who support the root, but the root supports you. 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” 11:20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 11:21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 11:22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 11:23 They also, if they don’t continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 11:24 For if you were cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more will these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 11:25 For I don’t desire you to be ignorant, brothers, (http://www.ebible.org/bible/hnv/Romans.htm#N54) of this mystery, so that you won’t be wise in your own conceits, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved. Even as it is written,

Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

scooter2
Jun 22nd 2008, 07:40 AM
But it also says He [G-d] will save his chosen in both testaments. ALL Israel will be saved as it is written in both testaments, This is found thruout the old testament as it is in the new. Israel is his, and a Christian is adopted into Israel, not the Church. Church isn't even the correct name for the Gentiles that repent Biblically. In fact the word isn't found in the entire Bible

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 07:43 AM
But it also says He [G-d] will save his chosen in both testaments. ALL Israel will be saved as it is written in both testaments, This is found thruout the old testament as it is in the new. Israel is his, and a Christian is adopted into Israel, not the Church. Church isn't even the correct name for the Gentiles that repent Biblically. In fact the word isn't found in the entire Bible

May I say NO to all of this?

scooter2
Jun 22nd 2008, 07:50 AM
But you will be incorrect, Here is an old testament scripture that tells the same thing. Israel will be saved. Do you know where this is found in the old?

9:13 “Behold, the days come,” says the LORD, “that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the one treading grapes him who sows seed; and sweet wine will drip from the mountains, and flow from the hills. 9:14 I will bring my people Israel back from captivity, and they will rebuild the ruined cities, and inhabit them; and they will plant vineyards, and drink wine from them. They shall also make gardens, and eat their fruit. 9:15 I will plant them on their land, and they will no more be plucked up out of their land which I have given them,” says the LORD your God.

scooter2
Jun 22nd 2008, 07:54 AM
Prophecy that Israel will be saved can also be found in Isaiah, Amos, and in the new, Romans etc. Its stated all thru the Bible, and the entire Bible is about Israel and what befalls her, from day one to the end of days.

scooter2
Jun 22nd 2008, 08:08 AM
10:6 “I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them back; for I have mercy on them; and they will be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and I will hear them.
10:7 Ephraim will be like a mighty man, and their heart will rejoice as through wine; yes, their children will see it, and rejoice. Their heart will be glad in the LORD.
10:8 I will signal for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them;
G-d IS going to save Israel as it is written, This is also found in the old testament, in another book other than the ones I gave.

scooter2
Jun 22nd 2008, 08:27 AM
The old testament. Its ALL of Israel, from day one to the end of days.


37:1 The hand of the LORD was on me, and he brought me out in the Spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones. 37:2 He caused me to pass by them all around: and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and behold, they were very dry. 37:3 He said to me, Son of man, can these bones live? I answered, Lord GOD, you know. 37:4 Again he said to me, Prophesy over these bones, and tell them, you dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 37:5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. 37:6 I will lay sinews on you, and will bring up flesh on you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the LORD. 37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, an earthquake; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. 37:8 I saw, and, behold, there were sinews on them, and flesh came up, and skin covered them above; but there was no breath in them. 37:9 Then he said to me, Prophesy to the wind, prophesy, son of man, and tell the wind, Thus says the Lord GOD: Come from the four winds, breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live. 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up on their feet, an exceedingly great army. 37:11 Then he said to me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are clean cut off. 37:12 Therefore prophesy, and tell them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, my people; and I will bring you into Eretz-Israel. 37:13 You shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, and caused you to come up out of your graves, my people. 37:14 I will put my Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land: and you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it, says the LORD. 37:15 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying, 37:16 You, son of man, take one stick, and write on it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write on it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: 37:17 and join them for you one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand. 37:18 When the children of your people shall speak to you, saying, Will you not show us what you mean by these? 37:19 tell them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his companions; and I will put them with it, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in my hand. 37:20 The sticks whereon you write shall be in your hand before their eyes. 37:21 Say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, where they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 37:22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all; 37:23 neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. 37:24 My servant David shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my ordinances, and observe my statutes, and do them. 37:25 They shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob my servant, in which your fathers lived; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children’s children, forever: and David my servant shall be their prince for ever. 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 37:27 My tent also shall be with them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 37:28 The nations shall know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in their midst forevermore.

scooter2
Jun 22nd 2008, 08:32 AM
Either G-d is lying to us, or the Church is, which one do you believe?? As I said, the word Church isn't in the Bible except thru interpretation by Gentiles. The first believers were called the way, not the Church. They were the assembly, or congregation of the Messiah

BroRog
Jun 22nd 2008, 06:53 PM
Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

We ask the question, to whom was Jesus talking: The Jews in general, or particular Jews?

When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus' parables, they knew he was talking about them.

In this we see that Jesus did not mean God was taking the kingdom away from the Jews as a people, but he was taking the kingdom away from the chief priests and the Pharisees just as the vineyard owner removed management of the vineyard from the tenants who killed the son of the owner.

As it turned out, the chief priests were responsible for putting Jesus to death, and God removed them from the management of the kingdom. Also, as it turned out, he gave it to his apostles.

Let's remember also that both the chief priests and the Apostles were sons of Jacob.

BroRog
Jun 22nd 2008, 07:03 PM
Romans 9:6-8 confirms, “they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham (through the flesh), are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

This shows what "all Israel" truly is. It is not all those of Jewish birth, but those born again of God. Here natural Israeli stock is shown to carry no spiritual favour before God. Whilst Ishmael was the heir apparent the destiny was seen Isaac – the child of promise.

Paul

While the text supports the idea that not all Jews are Israel, it doesn't support your other contentions that 1) Natural Israel stock carries no favor with God, and 2) Gentile stock is at all in view.

Unless we want to accept the idea that Paul is allowed to contradict himself, your first contention is refuted in Romans 11:28 as he says, "they are beloved because of the fathers."

Secondly, since Paul's examples sort between the physical sons of Abraham, we can not use this passage to affirm Gentile participation in the promise. Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, and Esau are physically related to Abraham.

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 07:34 PM
The first believers were called the way, not the Church. They were the assembly, or congregation of the Messiah

The first believers were called disciples of Jesus and Christians.


Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.


Matthew 27:57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:


Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

Mograce2U
Jun 22nd 2008, 07:34 PM
While the text supports the idea that not all Jews are Israel, it doesn't support your other contentions that 1) Natural Israel stock carries no favor with God, and 2) Gentile stock is at all in view.

Unless we want to accept the idea that Paul is allowed to contradict himself, your first contention is refuted in Romans 11:28 as he says, "they are beloved because of the fathers."

Secondly, since Paul's examples sort between the physical sons of Abraham, we can not use this passage to affirm Gentile participation in the promise. Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, and Esau are physically related to Abraham.Paul does use the example of how election worked to separate the physical children of Abraham from those who were the children of promise and those who were not. But he is using this example in the context of who the remnant of ISRAEL is to be seen as. IOW among the children of the flesh who were given the promise, a distinction exists - within the sons of Jacob. This is a typical Hebraism where a comparison is made by contrast.

(Rom 11:2-4 KJV) God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, {3} Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. {4} But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Here we see that the sons who would hold onto the promise would not be any of those who had bowed the knee to Baal. Paul then applies that example to the current time:

(Rom 11:5 KJV) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

So we see that this subset of men who comprise the elect remnant are chosen out from among the children who were given the promise but did not keep it. This is the remnant who the Lord would save out of the children of Jacob.

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 07:36 PM
We ask the question, to whom was Jesus talking: The Jews in general, or particular Jews?

It was taken from the nation and given to another composed of all races. The Pharisees represented most Jews and thus represented Judaism in Christ's day.

It's no different than this:


Psalms 118:22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Mark 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

Here the Jews are represented by the "builders" who rejected the cap stone which was Jesus. Not every single individual Jew rejected Jesus but corporately the Jews rejected him mainly because they follower their leaders and Rabbi's and they taught and teach to reject Jesus thus the people as a whole are rejecters. Many Jews did not reject and to this day convert but as a whole the Jews have rejected Jesus and in the same way has the Kingdom of God been taken away from them.

scooter2
Jun 22nd 2008, 09:18 PM
They were called followers of the way. Simply put all of them were Jewish and went to synagogue. The Church system was brought about by one person in particular, and it was not Jesus. Jesus came ONLY to the tribes of Israel as he said in the Gospels.

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 09:31 PM
They were called followers of the way. Simply put all of them were Jewish and went to synagogue.

Can you provide scriptures showing they were called this and not the church and Christians as I have already documented? Did you not know that there were gentiles that were part of the early church?




The Church system was brought about by one person in particular, and it was not Jesus.


And who was that person?



Jesus came ONLY to the tribes of Israel as he said in the Gospels.

Yes but that did not stop him from sharing the gospel with gentiles, nor healing gentiles. He simply did not initially make them a priority but it wasn't before long that the gentiles were targeted for evangelism.

scooter2
Jun 22nd 2008, 09:42 PM
Preach to Gentiles. He came ONLY to Israel.

"Go not into the way of the Gentiles....but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 10:7)

He said so himself. Paul was the only Apostle that went to the Gentiles. And as for what they were called this term Christian was brought about by Constantine and taught that way by the CC to start with. It simply isn't in the Bible except for the interpretations of man.

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 09:58 PM
Preach to Gentiles. He came ONLY to Israel.

"Go not into the way of the Gentiles....but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 10:7)

He said so himself. Paul was the only Apostle that went to the Gentiles.

Any gentiles that they came by could be preached to but they weren't sent intentionally to them.


Matthew 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Matthew 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Matthew 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Matthew 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.




And as for what they were called this term Christian was brought about by Constantine and taught that way by the CC to start with. It simply isn't in the Bible except for the interpretations of man.

No, it's in the bible.


Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

5546
5546 Christianos {khris-tee-an-os'}

from 5547; TDNT - 9:493,1322; n pr m

AV - Christian 3; 3

1) Christian, a follower of Christ


How can you say the term Christian isn't in the bible?



What isn't in the bible is your claim of the name "the way".

scooter2
Jun 22nd 2008, 10:30 PM
They were first called Christians at Antioch, in a sneering sort of way, Read up on it, you will be surprised.

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 10:33 PM
They were first called Christians at Antioch, in a sneering sort of way, Read up on it, you will be surprised.



That doesn't make any sense. So, you have a problem with the term Christian? What religion are you? The way?

Act 26:28 Agrippa asked Paul, "In such a short time do you think you can talk me into being a Christian?"
Act 26:29 Paul answered, "Whether it takes a short time or a long time, I wish you and everyone else who hears me today would become just like me! Except, of course, for these chains."

What of this?

1Pe 4:16 Don't be ashamed to suffer for being a Christian. Praise God that you belong to him.

and this??

scooter2
Jun 22nd 2008, 10:34 PM
Whether you believe it or not is up to you, but its the truth.


The term "Early Jewish Christians" is often used in discussing the Early History of Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity#The_Earliest_Church), see also Early Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity). Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus), his Twelve Apostles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Apostles), the Elders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_%28religious%29), his family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desposyni), and essentially all of his early followers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disciple_%28Christianity%29) were Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish) or Jewish Proselytes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proselytes). Hence the 3,000 converts on Pentecost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecost) (Sivan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sivan) 6), following the death and resurrection of Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_and_resurrection_of_Jesus) (Nisan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisan) 14 or 15), described in Acts of the Apostles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_the_Apostles) 2 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Acts&verse=2&src=%21), were all Jews and Proselytes. Samaritans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans) were not Jewish (Judean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judean)), but are still identified with the tribes of Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribes_of_Israel) and also numbered among the early followers, as is the Ethiopian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian) eunuch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch) (Acts 8 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Acts&verse=8&src=%21))[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Christians#cite_note-0). Traditionally the Roman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire) Centurion Cornelius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centurion_Cornelius) is considered the first Gentile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentile) convert[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Christians#cite_note-1), as recorded in Acts 10 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Acts&verse=10&src=%21), albeit he too is a "God-fearer" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godfearers) proselyte who participated in a Jewish synagogue. The major division prior to that time was between Hellenistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenization) and non-Hellenistic Jews or Koine Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek) (Acts 6 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Acts&verse=6&src=%21)) and Aramaic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic) (Acts 1:19 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Acts&verse=1:19&src=%21)) speakers. The conversion and acceptance of the Gentile Cornelius can be described in terms of the Judaic teaching which describes strangers becoming part of the community (Isaiah 56:3-7 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Isaiah&verse=56:3-7&src=%21)). Acts does not use the term "Jewish Christians", rather those led by James the Just (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_the_Just), Simon Peter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Peter), and John the Apostle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Apostle), the "Pillars of the Church", were called followers of "The Way".[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Christians#cite_note-2) Later groups, or perhaps the same group by different names[, were the Ebionites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites) and Elkasites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elkasites).
The "Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian)" appellation was first applied to the followers after Paul of Tarsus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_of_Tarsus) started preaching at Antioch

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 10:41 PM
Whether you believe it or not is up to you, but its the truth.


The term "Early Jewish Christians" is often used in discussing the Early History of Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity#The_Earliest_Church), see also Early Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity). Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus), his Twelve Apostles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Apostles), the Elders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_%28religious%29), his family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desposyni), and essentially all of his early followers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disciple_%28Christianity%29) were Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish) or Jewish Proselytes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proselytes). Hence the 3,000 converts on Pentecost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecost) (Sivan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sivan) 6), following the death and resurrection of Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_and_resurrection_of_Jesus) (Nisan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisan) 14 or 15), described in Acts of the Apostles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_the_Apostles) 2 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Acts&verse=2&src=%21), were all Jews and Proselytes. Samaritans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans) were not Jewish (Judean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judean)), but are still identified with the tribes of Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribes_of_Israel) and also numbered among the early followers, as is the Ethiopian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian) eunuch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch) (Acts 8 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Acts&verse=8&src=%21))[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Christians#cite_note-0). Traditionally the Roman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire) Centurion Cornelius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centurion_Cornelius) is considered the first Gentile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentile) convert[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Christians#cite_note-1), as recorded in Acts 10 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Acts&verse=10&src=%21), albeit he too is a "God-fearer" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godfearers) proselyte who participated in a Jewish synagogue. The major division prior to that time was between Hellenistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenization) and non-Hellenistic Jews or Koine Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek) (Acts 6 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Acts&verse=6&src=%21)) and Aramaic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic) (Acts 1:19 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Acts&verse=1:19&src=%21)) speakers. The conversion and acceptance of the Gentile Cornelius can be described in terms of the Judaic teaching which describes strangers becoming part of the community (Isaiah 56:3-7 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Isaiah&verse=56:3-7&src=%21)). Acts does not use the term "Jewish Christians", rather those led by James the Just (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_the_Just), Simon Peter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Peter), and John the Apostle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Apostle), the "Pillars of the Church", were called followers of "The Way".[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Christians#cite_note-2) Later groups, or perhaps the same group by different names[, were the Ebionites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites) and Elkasites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elkasites).
The "Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian)" appellation was first applied to the followers after Paul of Tarsus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_of_Tarsus) started preaching at Antioch


You need to cite the source. SO, you use this as your proof against the proof I use from the bible? Which is the better documentation? First you said the term Christian wasn't even in the bible, and when I showed it's in the bible three times then you decide to claim it was a name that was an insult even though it's not used in such a way? Very weird agenda you have. I also am curious why you say youre a Christian when you apparently aren't and don't even believe in the term.

scooter2
Jun 22nd 2008, 10:52 PM
The term Christian was an insult, I did tell you what they were called at first, where the name came from and why. I also told you Jesus did NOT come to Gentiles, fact of the Bible and Jesus himself.


Look, I am not trying to have some sort of doctrinal argument with you, or any kind of argument for that matter, all I am trying to do is tell you the truth of the Bible, without some doctrinal system added to it.

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 10:56 PM
I did NOT say The term Christian was an insult,

Yes you did:


They were first called Christians at Antioch, in a sneering sort of way,

It was not used in a sneering sort of way. It was the official name of those that followed Jesus Christ.

scooter2
Jun 22nd 2008, 10:59 PM
Do some reading, research helps a lot, then you begin to get it correct.

threebigrocks
Jun 22nd 2008, 11:27 PM
Preach to Gentiles. He came ONLY to Israel.

"Go not into the way of the Gentiles....but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 10:7)

He said so himself. Paul was the only Apostle that went to the Gentiles. And as for what they were called this term Christian was brought about by Constantine and taught that way by the CC to start with. It simply isn't in the Bible except for the interpretations of man.


You sure about that? Were the tax collectors, prostitutes, the woman at the well, of the house of Israel?

The followers of Christ were first called Christians at Antioch.

Acts 11

and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.


No different than calling someone from Corinth a Corinthian or from Ephesus an Ephesian. I'm from Minnesota, so that would make a Minnesotian.

How can it mean anything else? It's a simple term.

Christ called Paul to go to the gentiles. It seems like you are saying Christ only came for the Jews. How can that be seeing as how he hung out with many that the Jews considered unclean? If he truly came only for the Jews then why didn't he only hang out with the Pharasees and Sadduces?

scooter2
Jun 22nd 2008, 11:32 PM
Said himself. Its in the Bible where he said it.

threebigrocks
Jun 23rd 2008, 12:21 AM
Either G-d is lying to us, or the Church is, which one do you believe?? As I said, the word Church isn't in the Bible except thru interpretation by Gentiles. The first believers were called the way, not the Church. They were the assembly, or congregation of the Messiah

Let me get a hold of what you are saying here scooter. Are you saying that to call us Christians is in err because it was coined by gentiles?

scooter2
Jun 23rd 2008, 01:04 AM
But it was coined by Gentiles making fun of believers. I realize this upsets most, but its the truth. It was their way of being derogatory toward those who followed Jesus, or Christ. You can find this info out from several places including the net. I am not trying to make enemys out of anyone, I am just telling the truth about the way people learn, or not, about the Bible and what it says.

Naphal
Jun 23rd 2008, 01:10 AM
But it was coined by Gentiles making fun of believers. I realize this upsets most, but its the truth. It was their way of being derogatory toward those who followed Jesus, or Christ. You can find this info out from several places including the net. I am not trying to make enemys out of anyone, I am just telling the truth about the way people learn, or not, about the Bible and what it says.

Just to set the record straight, not a word of this is true. This is a-typical anti-Christian propaganda. The word Christian no more makes fun of those who followed Christ than "Americans" makes fun of those who live in America. It's a baseless claim to suggest the word Christians makes fun of followers of Jesus Christ.

threebigrocks
Jun 23rd 2008, 01:12 AM
But it was coined by Gentiles making fun of believers. I realize this upsets most, but its the truth. It was their way of being derogatory toward those who followed Jesus, or Christ. You can find this info out from several places including the net. I am not trying to make enemys out of anyone, I am just telling the truth about the way people learn, or not, about the Bible and what it says.

Well, if those who coined the term Minnesotian were making fun of people who first settled here, should I take it personally? No!

It's the way language is used my friend. I expect to get spit on and dirt kicked on me because of being a Christian. Christianity isn't a clean and dressed up package. We were told we would do greater things than Christ, but not without a price. We were also warned we would be persecuted.

scooter2
Jun 23rd 2008, 01:14 AM
I am saying is not popular with the usual crowd, but it is truth, and truth is usually stranger than fiction. Whatever the case may be I will stop upsetting the normal view, Its in error a lot but thats the way most want it. I don't even claim to be the smartest chip on the block, but I do know what the Bible actually says, and it usually conflicts with the set view. Heh. Anyway believe what you wish, its none of my business.


Besides It looks like I have already been judged by some, Thats ok too, I know the difference

ShirleyFord
Jun 23rd 2008, 01:22 AM
Whether you believe it or not is up to you, but its the truth.

I don't know whether you were aware of it or not. But after clicking on the first link and it took me to the source that you are calling the truth to a clickable LDS site at the top of that article.

Btw you must've missed this Scripture written by a full-blooded Jew, a disciple and apostle of Christ, who preached that first sermon in Acts 2 to no one but Jews when 3000 of those Jews were saved on that one day:

1 Pet 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

Shirley

threebigrocks
Jun 23rd 2008, 01:23 AM
I am saying is not popular with the usual crowd, but it is truth, and truth is usually stranger than fiction. Whatever the case may be I will stop upsetting the normal view, Its in error a lot but thats the way most want it. I don't even claim to be the smartest chip on the block, but I do know what the Bible actually says, and it usually conflicts with the set view. Heh. Anyway believe what you wish, its none of my business.


Besides It looks like I have already been judged by some, Thats ok too, I know the difference

So you won 't be called a Christian because someone poked fun at it once?

scooter2
Jun 23rd 2008, 01:29 AM
In the Messiah, the Master of the universe, and if it requires I be called a Christian then so be it. I have nothing against the name and I do believe Jesus/Christ gave his life for any who repent, But to say I am not a Christian is judging. The name is ok with me but it did come from where I said it did, in jest by those who were not following Jesus.