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joztok
May 4th 2008, 02:09 PM
I'm witnessing to a guy and some thoughts came up that bothered me.

When Christ died, how and why did we die?
When He was buried, how were we buried and why were we buried?
When Christ rose from the dead, how and why did we rise from the dead?

When a believer meets Jesus and believes in Him, he automatically is given His faith, therefore is crucified with Christ, buried with Christ and then resurrected in the new life as a new creature just like Christ.
So do other believers.

So what is this spiritual bond that connects us, ties us with and shares in Christ's death, burial and resurrection to bring new life, the new nature and new spirit in believers?

What is this bonding or spiritual binding that Jesus has on all of humanity that when His Father does these things for Him, they happen to us too?


I'm hoping that their might be a knowledgeable answer in terms of understanding spiritual insights to these questions. Looking forward to your answers...

Teke
May 5th 2008, 01:45 PM
By the Incarnation God put on humanity and bound it to Him.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Brother Mark
May 5th 2008, 01:52 PM
Eve was the first being created that was created from life. She didn't come from dirt. She was shared Adam's life.

When we get saved, the uncreated life of Christ is put in us. Somehow, we become sharers of his eternal and uncreated life. His Life is in us. We are now dead to ourselves and alive to Him. So what he experienced, we experienced because we are now in Christ and Christ is in us.

joztok
May 5th 2008, 01:58 PM
By the Incarnation God put on humanity and bound it to Him.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Can you expand on that then. Someone said something similar but I don't think I understand what either of you mean. Is their a good website or book on this that I can look at?


Eve was the first being created that was created from life. She didn't come from dirt. She was shared Adam's life.

When we get saved, the uncreated life of Christ is put in us. Somehow, we become sharers of his eternal and uncreated life. His Life is in us. We are now dead to ourselves and alive to Him. So what he experienced, we experienced because we are now in Christ and Christ is in us.
So can someones please explain the 'somehow', if possible? It's a good observation of Adam and Eve- I haven't thought of that before. But I'd like to know how this spiritual bond works and why.

Teke
May 5th 2008, 02:09 PM
Can you expand on that then. Someone said something similar but I don't think I understand what either of you mean. Is their a good website or book on this that I can look at?

Here (http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/athanasius/incarnation/incarnation.c.htm) is a website with "St Athanasius on the Incarnation" (intro by CS Lewis included). Small book if you bought it, but it's published free on the web.



So can someones please explain the 'somehow', if possible?

Even Paul had to use metaphor to explain the mystery.

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

uric3
May 5th 2008, 02:15 PM
I'm witnessing to a guy and some thoughts came up that bothered me.

When Christ died, how and why did we die?
When He was buried, how were we buried and why were we buried?
When Christ rose from the dead, how and why did we rise from the dead?

When a believer meets Jesus and believes in Him, he automatically is given His faith, therefore is crucified with Christ, buried with Christ and then resurrected in the new life as a new creature just like Christ.
So do other believers.

So what is this spiritual bond that connects us, ties us with and shares in Christ's death, burial and resurrection to bring new life, the new nature and new spirit in believers?

What is this bonding or spiritual binding that Jesus has on all of humanity that when His Father does these things for Him, they happen to us too?


I'm hoping that their might be a knowledgeable answer in terms of understanding spiritual insights to these questions. Looking forward to your answers...

Thats an interesting question you bring up. We are tied to his D/B/R and it actually takes place when we are baptized into Christ.

Read Rom 6:3-4

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

So we see here that we are the old man of sin... we die and are buried with Christ in baptism upon coming out of that watery grave we are a new creature and walk in newness of life.

We also read in 2nd Cor 5:16-18

Note verse 17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

So when do we put on Christ or put in Christ? We are told in Gal 3:27 that when we are baptized into Christ we have put on Christ thus making us a new creature. One who has been raised up a saved Christian with his/her sins washed away. 1st Peter 3:20-21

So in summery of your questions

1. When Christ died, how and why did we die? Rom 6:6 Our old man of sin is crucified with him so we can raise again to become a new creature.
2. When He was buried, how were we buried and why were we buried? Rom 6:3-4 We are buried with him via baptism washing away our sins.
3. When Christ rose from the dead, how and why did we rise from the dead? Rom 6:3-4 When we complete the act of baptism we come up out of the watery grave a new creature that is free of sin. Also note 1st Peter 3:20-21

Hopefully that helps if not I will expound more when I have the chance.

Souled Out
May 5th 2008, 05:07 PM
I'm witnessing to a guy and some thoughts came up that bothered me.

When Christ died, how and why did we die?
When He was buried, how were we buried and why were we buried?
When Christ rose from the dead, how and why did we rise from the dead?

When a believer meets Jesus and believes in Him, he automatically is given His faith, therefore is crucified with Christ, buried with Christ and then resurrected in the new life as a new creature just like Christ.
So do other believers.

So what is this spiritual bond that connects us, ties us with and shares in Christ's death, burial and resurrection to bring new life, the new nature and new spirit in believers?

What is this bonding or spiritual binding that Jesus has on all of humanity that when His Father does these things for Him, they happen to us too?


I'm hoping that their might be a knowledgeable answer in terms of understanding spiritual insights to these questions. Looking forward to your answers...

I think the view you have of the atonement will greatly affect your understanding (and the explanations of others) of how we fell and rose with both corporate Adams. I always thought there was only one view of the atonement because that was all I heard and was taught.

There are actually several theories that have been believed throughout the church, with the penal substitution theory being the most prevalently taught in Christendom. So you’ll find zillions of papers and many organized writings on this view. The other theories/views you’ll have to study out on your own.

It's a faith booster when you know what you believe and why you believe it. It's even more powerful when you can explain it to others, so this study was key for me. :)

Brother Mark
May 5th 2008, 05:11 PM
I think the view you have of the atonement will greatly affect your understanding (and the explanations of others) of how we fell and rose with both corporate Adams. I always thought there was only one view of the atonement because that was all I heard and was taught.

Only those in Christ will ever see God. The rest are doomed to miss out on what the atoning sacrifice of God was meant to accomplish. They will spend eternity in judgment.

Souled Out
May 5th 2008, 05:35 PM
Only those in Christ will ever see God. The rest are doomed to miss out on what the atoning sacrifice of God was meant to accomplish. They will spend eternity in judgment.

What are you talking about? Neither the OP nor my post have anything to do with eternal judgment.

Brother Mark
May 5th 2008, 06:39 PM
What are you talking about? Neither the OP nor my post have anything to do with eternal judgment.

Atonement is all about forgiveness and forgiveness is all about missing judgment. I wanted to make it clear that the "many" ways atonement can be viewed are not all accurate and many are antibiblical. Not everyone experiences atonement. Just wanted to dispense with that troublesome doctrine right away. You did rightly point out that how one views atonement will impact there views in many different ways. Not all those views are allowed on taught on this board, even if they are hinted at.

Souled Out
May 5th 2008, 07:03 PM
Atonement is all about forgiveness and forgiveness is all about missing judgment. I wanted to make it clear that the "many" ways atonement can be viewed are not all accurate and many are antibiblical. Not everyone experiences atonement. Just wanted to dispense with that troublesome doctrine right away. You did rightly point out that how one views atonement will impact there views in many different ways. Not all those views are allowed on taught on this board, even if they are hinted at.

Many views/theories of atonement does not mean many roads to Christ so what you're saying, I'm not sure why you're saying what you're saying.

I think you're confusing salvation with atonement. They are two completely different subjects.

joztok
May 6th 2008, 08:09 AM
Thats an interesting question you bring up. We are tied to his D/B/R and it actually takes place when we are baptized into Christ.

Read Rom 6:3-4

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

So we see here that we are the old man of sin... we die and are buried with Christ in baptism upon coming out of that watery grave we are a new creature and walk in newness of life.

We also read in 2nd Cor 5:16-18

Note verse 17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

So when do we put on Christ or put in Christ? We are told in Gal 3:27 that when we are baptized into Christ we have put on Christ thus making us a new creature. One who has been raised up a saved Christian with his/her sins washed away. 1st Peter 3:20-21

So in summery of your questions

1. When Christ died, how and why did we die? Rom 6:6 Our old man of sin is crucified with him so we can raise again to become a new creature.
2. When He was buried, how were we buried and why were we buried? Rom 6:3-4 We are buried with him via baptism washing away our sins.
3. When Christ rose from the dead, how and why did we rise from the dead? Rom 6:3-4 When we complete the act of baptism we come up out of the watery grave a new creature that is free of sin. Also note 1st Peter 3:20-21

Hopefully that helps if not I will expound more when I have the chance.
Thankyou for your kind effort into explaining this. I'm familiar with those scriptures and I fully know that baptism represents our death, burial and new resurrected life in Him.

But let me try to rephrase the questions:
Christ died, was buried and rose again 2000 years ago.
When Christ saves us (lets say 2008), how does His events 2000 years ago, bind us to the same work Spiritually? When Christ died and rose again, how are we spiritually bound as to have those affects apply to us 2000 years later? Why should these things happen?

What is this spiritual bond that connects us, ties us with and shares in Christ's death, burial and resurrection to bring new life, the new nature and new spirit in believers?

What is this bonding or spiritual binding that Jesus has on all of humanity that when His Father does these things for Him, they happen to us too?

Thanks to everyone's replies.

Roelof
May 6th 2008, 10:07 AM
Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)

Teke
May 6th 2008, 02:44 PM
But let me try to rephrase the questions:
Christ died, was buried and rose again 2000 years ago.
When Christ saves us (lets say 2008), how does His events 2000 years ago, bind us to the same work Spiritually? When Christ died and rose again, how are we spiritually bound as to have those affects apply to us 2000 years later? Why should these things happen?

What is this spiritual bond that connects us, ties us with and shares in Christ's death, burial and resurrection to bring new life, the new nature and new spirit in believers?

What is this bonding or spiritual binding that Jesus has on all of humanity that when His Father does these things for Him, they happen to us too?

Thanks to everyone's replies.

Plainly speaking the bond is "Life", and life is of God, who is Spirit. Like Trinity theology we explain this ontologically.

joztok
May 11th 2008, 03:01 PM
Plainly speaking the bond is "Life", and life is of God, who is Spirit. Like Trinity theology we explain this ontologically.
Wow! I was looking for something deeper and more intellectual.
But that answer is profound to me. God breathed 'life' into Adam, and the Second Adam gave up His life and surrendered His life to His Father.
This life breathed into the first Adam would have been God's life and Man's life. THat's why Satan wanted man's authority?

Mark F
May 11th 2008, 08:22 PM
joztok,

What your looking for is not a matter of understanding people's descriptions of what they think it is.

People are saved when they believe God has been merciful, that He has provided a Savior, and that He is propitious.

It has to be thought of in concrete terms not subjective descriptions. We do indeed partake of a mystical union with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

We come to these understandings by revelation only. I do not deny that we are given a sense, or feeling in the matter, but our knowledge of the fact is by revelation only:

1 John 5:9-15
"If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

The testimony is Scripture, here are six passages that declare to us the vital union you describe.

The believer is in God the Father. 1 Thess. 1:1
That God the Father is in the believer. Ephesians 4:6
The believer is in the Son. Romans 8:1
The Son is in the believer. John 14:20
The believer is in the Spirit. Romans 8:9
The Spirit is in the believer. 1 Cor. 2:12

Others have posted Scripture that testifies of the knowledge of how we partake of and identify with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. This again is by revelation, the value of this is that by Jesus meeting the righteous requirements of a holy God and only He of His own merit is qualified to stand perfect before Him and fellowship with God, we become partakers by believing God (the testimony of Scripture) concerning Jesus, and we are then given this vital union with God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit by imputation. We know these things primarily because the Scriptures declare them.

C. I. Scofield wrote: "Christ is the propitiation (hilasterion, mercy seat, "throne of grace," Heb. 4:16) because He is the meeting place and place of communion between a holy God and a sinful but believing human being."

Hope this helps.