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ProDeo
May 4th 2008, 04:47 PM
I am wondering concerning the connections between Hell, Lake of Fire and Second Death, the latter two only mentioned in Revelations.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

I interprete Second Death as the final destruction of the soul, people not written in the Book of Life are thrown in the Lake of Fire and die, else the word "death" is hard to understand.

But then 4 verses earlier:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Here it is said there is no death but torture forever.

Then in the next chapers we read about the new Jerusalem coming from heaven and then we read:

Revelation 20:15 For outside are dogs and sorcerers, and whoremongers and murderers and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

The term hell or lake of fire is not mentioned here. Who are those?

Regards,

Ed

divaD
May 4th 2008, 06:34 PM
Revelation 20:15 For outside are dogs and sorcerers, and whoremongers and murderers and idolaters, and
whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

The term hell or lake of fire is not mentioned here. Who are those?


You have to read this in the right perspective.


Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.



Notice what verse 12 states,
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Read verse 15 from this perspective, and not from the perspective of after the white throne judgment. The perspective here, is, before Christ has even returned. Verse 14 tells us that those that do His commandments, they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Verse 15, these are the ones that will be cast into the lake of fire after being judged at the white throne judgment.
Rev 21:8 also backs this up.

Rev 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

Since this had already occured in Ch 20, it is just a matter of reading it from the correct perspective.

ProDeo
May 5th 2008, 11:01 AM
divaD, thank you.

And what about 20:10 and 20:14 ?

I am asking myself the question if an all-loving God is able to torment unbelievers forever for saying no to God with their God-given free will.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The 2 texts leave room for speculation that not every unbeliever will be tortured forever but that the fire simply will destroy them, erased from history completely according their explicit wish for not wanting God. That only key-evil creatures responsible for the damage they created to God's creation (the fallen angels come to mind: 2 Peter 2:4, Jude 1:6) will be tormented forever because of all the deception with as only goal to harm God.

God has given people a free will to chose before or against Him. The reward for a positive choice is eternal life, a negative choice the destruction of the soul / personality, the second death or as the well known John 3:16 says: to perish. Perish in the Lake of Fire as final destination.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I am not sure my reasoning is right, I see Matthew 5:29-30 as an obstacle, but then Revelation 20:14 tells us that hell and the Lake of Fire are 2 different things.

Ed

Roelof
May 5th 2008, 11:45 AM
Rebel777

I see it in the same light as you.

Br. Barnabas
May 5th 2008, 11:55 AM
I agree with the concept of annihilationism, that is the final destrution of the soul at the second death. I would say that once death, hades, the sea, and the beasts are thrown into the lake of fire, God never wants to see them again or for them to ever hurt people. God created them and at some point he will uncreate them and comfort those who were hurt by them.

divaD
May 6th 2008, 01:18 AM
The 2 texts leave room for speculation that not every unbeliever will be tortured forever but that the fire simply will destroy
them, erased from history completely according their explicit wish for not wanting God. That only key-evil creatures
responsible for the damage they created to God's creation (the fallen angels come to mind: 2 Peter 2:4, Jude 1:6) will be
tormented forever because of all the deception with as only goal to harm God.



rebel777, you won't get any argument from me in what you posted up above. I tried to make this point in another thread, but I tend to believe no one heard me. They saw what I wrote, they just didn't hear what I wrote.

I'm convinced that even though all of these end up in the same place, these are entirely different judgments, in regards to Rev 20:10 and 20:14. I basically believe that satan was created immortal, man was not. Mortal can die, immortal can't. Notice what it states in Rev 20:14. It's called the second death. There is NO WAY this can apply to satan, because if it did, then that would mean that satan would have had to have died 1 time already, in order to die a second death.
Anyone that has read the Bible, knows that satan has never died. Clearly to me, these are entirely 2 different judgments, Satan and his ilk are tormented forever, humans are destroyed forever.

Of course you'll have some proclaim, how is there justice in that, if humans are destroyed and not horrendlessly tortured forever? I can ask the same question. How is there justice in humans being horrendlessly tortured forever? Where is the justice in that?

Clifton
May 6th 2008, 01:52 AM
I am wondering concerning the connections between Hell, Lake of Fire and Second Death, the latter two only mentioned in Revelations.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

I interprete Second Death as the final destruction of the soul, people not written in the Book of Life are thrown in the Lake of Fire and die, else the word "death" is hard to understand.

But then 4 verses earlier:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Here it is said there is no death but torture forever.
The dilemma you are facing in trying to sort these things out is due to the disorder of passages in The Book Of Revelation, ESPECIALLY of the last 3 Chapters, which are the worst out of sequence.


Then in the next chapers we read about the new Jerusalem coming from heaven and then we read:

Revelation 20:15 For outside are dogs and sorcerers, and whoremongers and murderers and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

The term hell or lake of fire is not mentioned here. Who are those? I think you mean Revelation 22:15, which is placed "within the so-called Millennial Kingdom" (or, "Kingdom Age"), which is a text that belongs earlier in the whole. Only the righteous can enter into the City that will be here for that Kingdom Age, thus, "the sorcerers", etc. are outside of it. Only the righteous will be able to enter and be in the City, but from what I have learned, I think there will be "evangelizing" outside the city.

I have a thread on the Last three chapters of Revelation, but it is in the Controversial Issues Forum of this board and I am not sure if you have access to that yet, or have joined that group section - if you have access, you can click on the following link which will direct you to it on this board:

Revelation: Last 3 Chapters

If you are unable to access that thread yet, here is a sampling of summaries that is better sequenced (from the Late British Scholar, RHC (Robert Henry Charles)):

CHAPTERS 20-22
(The traditional order of the text in these three chapters is intolerably disordered and hopelessly unintelligible. The present editor (RHC) has restored, so far as he can, the order of the text as it left the hand of The Seer. See RHC Vol. II, 144-154. The restored order is given on pp. 153-154. On line 12 (p. 154) delete 6a, and on line 17 insert 5c before 6b-8. (Vol. II, ALP 449 of 516))

SECTION F

Chapter 20a (v.1-3)

20:1-3. (Satan chained for a thousand years, and the nations are set free from his deceptions.)


Chapter 21a and Chapter 22a

21:9-22:2, 14-15, 17. (Vision of the Heavenly Jerusalem, which descends from Heaven and settles on the ruined site of the earthly Jerusalem. This Heavenly City is at once the seat of the Messianic Kingdom, the abode of the glorified martyrs, and the center of the evangelizing agencies of the surviving nations on the earth, during the millennial period. Though it is not stated, we must conclude that alike the glorified martyrs and the Heavenly Jerusalem are withdrawn from the earth before the final judgment.

The tree of life (22:2, 14) appears to be for the new converts (22:2; cf. 11:15, 14:6, 7, and 15:3, 4) and not for the martyrs, since the martyrs are already clothed with their Heavenly bodies and are not subject to the second death. They had already eaten of it in the Paradise of God (2:7).

As one of the seven angels of the Bowls showed Rome -- the capital of the kingdom of the Antichrist -- to The Seer 17:1, so he now shows him the Heavenly Jerusalem.)


Chapter 20b (v4-10)

*20:4-6.* (Vision of the glorified martyrs who reign with Christ for a thousand years.)

*20:7-10.* (Close of the Millennial Kingdom and of its evangelizing activities. There upon follows Satan being loosed, march of Gog and Magog against the beloved city, their destruction by supernatural means, and the casting of Satan into the lake of fire. The Seer does, not say what became of the Heavenly Jerusalem, but its withdrawal from the earth before the final judgment is presupposed. Since “the beloved city” in 20:9 is the Heavenly Jerusalem, the saints referred to in the same verse must include the risen martyrs.)


SECTION G

Chapter 20c (v.11.13.12.14.15)

*20:11, 13, 12, 14-15.* (Vision of the great throne and of Him that sat thereon, before whose presence the former heaven and the former earth forthwith vanish. Judgment of the dead. Death and hell cast into the lake of fire.)


SECTION H

Chapter 21b & 22b

21:5a, 4d, 5b; 21:1-4abc.; and 22:3-5. (Declaration by God that the former things have passed away and that He creates all things new. Forthwith The Seer sees the new heaven and the new earth and the New[2] Jerusalem coming down, adorned as a bride for her husband. God tabernacles with men. No more grief or pain or tears or death. All the faithful are to reign with Christ for ever and ever (22:5), whereas in the Millennial Kingdom only the risen martyrs were to reign for a thousand years.)

Footnote:
[2] “New” = Even the Heavenly City of 21:10, which had been withdrawn from the earth before the Judgment with Christ and the saints, is renewed or displaced by one of a higher nature.


SECTION I

EPILOGUE AT THE CLOSE OF JOHN'S VISION.

Chapter 21c

21:5c, 6b-8. (God's testimony to John's book: His message to all men.)


Chapter 22c

22:6-7, 18a, 16, 13, 12, 10. (Here more than anywhere else in Chapters 20-22, we have the disjecta membra of the Poet-Seer. I (RHC) have restored the order of this section tentatively as above. As for 22:11, 18b-19, they are relegated to the footnotes as interpolations. See RHC Vol. II. 211-213, 217.)

Blessings

MikeAD
May 6th 2008, 02:05 AM
I just pray and hope that annihilation is what happens.

I can't imagine being happy in Heaven knowing that millions/billions are being tortured, nor can I envision a Just God allowing it. I know people say that you are cut off and separate and perfect and pure, but its hard for me to grasp.

I still look at Ezekiel 37 and hope that everyone gets a second chance.

There is so much in the Bible that we just don't know about, because there is support for both views and the afterlife is riddled with this. What happens after death and before Christ’s' return, or soul sleep, or instantly being with God, there is support for all.

We can find support for annihilation and we can find support for eternal torture. Further, I think it is how we want it to be, that determines how we interpret the text. For instance, I have always interpreted "there will be gnashing of teeth" to mean during destruction and not eternal.

markedward
May 6th 2008, 02:25 AM
I am wondering concerning the connections between Hell, Lake of Fire and Second Death, the latter two only mentioned in Revelations.The "lake of fire" is the "second death," as stated in Revelation 20.

Hell is the English translation of the Greek word hades, which is in turn the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word sheol.

In the strictest, most literal, context, "hell" is not the eternal fire. For a moment, let's disregard that the word "hell" exists.

In the Old Testament, the Hebrew term sheol is used, to refer to death and dying, to the grave, and occasionally to the "abode of the dead." There are particular passages in the OT that, when taken together, give the impression that both the righteous and wicked went to sheol. This, in my opinion, is likely, since Jesus stated that no one had gone up to heaven except for Himself. No one could enter heaven until Christ had atoned for their sins, so, it seems that both "good" and "bad" who died went to sheol. When comparing Daniel 12:1-2 and Revelation 20:11-15 together, it is easy to see that they speak of the same event. Both of them speak of (1) the book of life and (2) the dead being judged. Daniel 12:1-2 says that the dead would be raised, with the good being given eternal life and the bad being given eternal "shame and contempt." Revelation 20:11-15 depicts the dead from hades being brought before the throne of God and judged according to if the individuals are in the book of life. Those that are not in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. If the people of hades needed to be divided according to the book of life, it should be obvious that both "good" and "bad" people are in hades to be divided.

In the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the OT), the Greek term hades is used in place of the Hebrew word sheol. The Septuagint was around prior to the life of Jesus, so by the time the New Testament was written, the authors would know that the proper Greek equivalent of sheol would be hades. So, when we read the Gospels it is best to mentally translated each instance of hades as sheol.

In the gospels, Christ speaks of sheol/hades on occasion, but when He spoke of the eternal fire, He always made it distinct from sheol/hades. Sometimes Jesus referred to the eternal fire as gehenna, a Greek translation of a word that referred to the garbage dump that was continually burning. The Revelation speaks of a "lake of fire," and now and then says that it is eternal.

The best place in the Bible to find the distinction that sheol/hades is not the same thing as the eternal fire is in Revelation 20, in which it states that sheol/hades is thrown into the lake of fire. Sheol/hades/hell simply cannot be the eternal fire if it is thrown into the lake of fire (i.e. showing that sheol/hades/hell is not eternal if it comes to and end).

As for the annihilationist view, this is simply unBiblical.

The number one way to put down this view is with a single verse from Jesus Himself.

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Just as the "life" is on-going and neverending, the "punishment" is on-going and neverending. If the "punishment" is the lake of fire, and a person is placed into it and they burn up and disappear from existence, then that punishment came to an end. It wasn't eternal.

"It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hellfire, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'"

Note: the word "hellfire" here is not a translation of hades, but of gehenna. Depending on your translation, your Bible may translate both hades and gehenna as "hell," which only leads to confusion. Anyway, here Jesus says that the "hellfire" (gehenna fire) is unquenchable. According to the annihilationist view, a person is burned in the lake of fire, and then they disappear from existence. Wouldn't that mean the fire was quenched, which Jesus stated the fire would never be?


It's called the second death. There is NO WAY this can apply to satan, because if it did, then that would mean that satan would have had to have died 1 time already, in order to die a second death.John directly states that to be cast into the lake of fire is the "second death." John also directly states that Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Satan, ergo, takes part in the "second death."

Jesus stated that the eternal fire was created for "the devil and his angels," and He also stated that mankind would face the same fate if they remained in sin. Jesus never implied or suggested that Satan and the fallen angels would face eternal punishment while mankind would face temporal punishment followed by eternal non-existence. Again, Jesus directly stated that the mankind would face unquenchable fire if they continued in sin.

Spiritual death is not the end of a person's existence.

Physical death is not the end of a person's existence.

So why does the fact that the lake of fire is called the "second death" (whether it is the second compared to the spiritual death or the physical death) mean it is the end of a person's existence?

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"

Jesus directly states that the eternal fire is the punishment of Satan and the fallen angels. And the annihilationist would have you believe that this is, indeed, eternal punishment and eternal torment (Rev. 20:10) for Satan.

Yet here Jesus directly says that the sinful man is "cursed into the eternal fire." The very same eternal fire that Satan is eternally tormented in. Why would Jesus specifically say to unsaved mankind "You are condemned to the eternal fire" if it wasn't eternal for unsaved mankind?

Let's convert this into an analogy:

Satan and the angels are condemned to wear red coats for eternity. Then Jesus says to sinful mankind "You are to wear the same red coats that were made for Satan and the angels" and then sinful mankind is handed red t-shirts, that's not the same thing. Sure, they're still wearing something red, but a coat is far different from a t-shirt.

Now let's replace the proper terms:

Satan and the angels are condemned to burn in eternal fire for eternity. Then Jesus says to sinful mankind "You are to burn in the same eternal fire that was made for Satan and the angels" and then sinful mankind is burns in temporal fire, that's not the same thing. Sure, they're still burning in fire, but an eternal fire is far different from a temporal fire.

There is no reason to interpret "You are cursed to the eternal fire made for the devil and his angels" as "You are cursed to the eternal fire made for the devil and his angels, but only for a little while" unless the interpreter admits they're changing the plain and obvious meaning. If the fire is eternal for Satan and his angels, and the same "eternal fire" is threatened over sinful mankind, then it is eternal for sinful mankind.

Reynolds357
May 6th 2008, 05:51 PM
I am wondering concerning the connections between Hell, Lake of Fire and Second Death, the latter two only mentioned in Revelations.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

I interprete Second Death as the final destruction of the soul, people not written in the Book of Life are thrown in the Lake of Fire and die, else the word "death" is hard to understand.

But then 4 verses earlier:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Here it is said there is no death but torture forever.

Then in the next chapers we read about the new Jerusalem coming from heaven and then we read:

Revelation 20:15 For outside are dogs and sorcerers, and whoremongers and murderers and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

The term hell or lake of fire is not mentioned here. Who are those?

Regards,

Ed

What is death in these passages? In this context, Death is eternal separation from the Father. These passages speak of spiritual death, not physical death.

Reynolds357
May 6th 2008, 05:54 PM
I just pray and hope that annihilation is what happens.

I can't imagine being happy in Heaven knowing that millions/billions are being tortured, nor can I envision a Just God allowing it. I know people say that you are cut off and separate and perfect and pure, but its hard for me to grasp.

I still look at Ezekiel 37 and hope that everyone gets a second chance.

There is so much in the Bible that we just don't know about, because there is support for both views and the afterlife is riddled with this. What happens after death and before Christ’s' return, or soul sleep, or instantly being with God, there is support for all.

We can find support for annihilation and we can find support for eternal torture. Further, I think it is how we want it to be, that determines how we interpret the text. For instance, I have always interpreted "there will be gnashing of teeth" to mean during destruction and not eternal.

I do not think you can find any support for "annihilation."
God is just. We all deserve Hell. Compared to Jesus Christ, none of us are worthy of any good thing. We all deserve hell. God, in His immense love for us sent us His Son so that we could escape what we deserve. God's love offered us provision for eternal life.

MikeAD
May 6th 2008, 06:08 PM
What is death in these passages? In this context, Death is eternal separation from the Father. These passages speak of spiritual death, not physical death.

Is that what "Death" is or is that what you are reading "death" to be?

mikebr
May 6th 2008, 06:51 PM
I do not think you can find any support for "annihilation."
God is just. We all deserve Hell. Compared to Jesus Christ, none of us are worthy of any good thing. We all deserve hell. God, in His immense love for us sent us His Son so that we could escape what we deserve. God's love offered us provision for eternal life.

I've heard this often so I'm sure its true but can you enlighten us on the scripture that supports this.

Reynolds357
May 6th 2008, 07:10 PM
I've heard this often so I'm sure its true but can you enlighten us on the scripture that supports this.

Which part do you want clarification on? I will be glad to clarify, but do you want clarification on eternal damnation, or on we are all worthy of damnation?

Reynolds357
May 6th 2008, 07:20 PM
Is that what "Death" is or is that what you are reading "death" to be?
Ephesians 2:1
Ephesians 2:5
Colossians 2:13

Isaiah 66:24 is concrete proof of the eternity of Hell.
The following scriptures also affirm that premise.

"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).
"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).
These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude12-13).

ProDeo
May 7th 2008, 10:25 AM
rebel777, you won't get any argument from me in what you posted up above. I tried to make this point in another thread, but I tend to believe no one heard me. They saw what I wrote, they just didn't hear what I wrote.

That has to been seen. Information is like food, it needs to be digested first before one adapts his views.


I'm convinced that even though all of these end up in the same place, these are entirely different judgments, in regards to Rev 20:10 and 20:14. I basically believe that satan was created immortal, man was not. Mortal can die, immortal can't. Notice what it states in Rev 20:14. It's called the second death. There is NO WAY this can apply to satan, because if it did, then that would mean that satan would have had to have died 1 time already, in order to die a second death.
Anyone that has read the Bible, knows that satan has never died. Clearly to me, these are entirely 2 different judgments, Satan and his ilk are tormented forever, humans are destroyed forever.

You make a good point here, thank you.

Also satan and co have been in the glorious presence of the Lord and yet chosen to rebel. How could they? We humans never had that privilege, we are bound to Hebrews 11:6 It's maybe for this reason there will be a different judgement for mankind and satan and co.


Of course you'll have some proclaim, how is there justice in that, if humans are destroyed and not horrendlessly tortured forever? I can ask the same question. How is there justice in humans being horrendlessly tortured forever? Where is the justice in that?

If one in this life makes the choice not wanting to have anything to do with God then that person is being served completely to his/her explicit wish. The destruction of the soul and personality is their own choice. Very democratic by God also. It makes so much sense in the light of an all-loving and all-righteous God.

On the other hand "markedward" made a good counter post, it needs to be addressed as well.

Ed

ProDeo
May 7th 2008, 10:42 AM
I do not think you can find any support for "annihilation."

Yesterday I found this on the wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism

The annihilation doctrine was total new for me ;)


God is just.

Right.


We all deserve Hell.

Wait a minute... where did you read this in the Scripture?


Ed

Reynolds357
May 7th 2008, 12:40 PM
Yesterday I found this on the wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism

The annihilation doctrine was total new for me ;)



Right.



Wait a minute... where did you read this in the Scripture?



Ed


I am well versed on the annihilation doctrine. It is anti biblical, and came from the Watchtower. Historically, the Jehovah's witnesses were the only group in the United States who held this doctrine in any number. Not meaning any disrespect, but in all honesty I believe it is simply a false doctrine on par with the rest of their false teachings.

Where did I find we all deserve Hell in Scriptures? We have already agreed that God is just, so that eliminates the need for the discussion of that issue.
Romans 3:23 tells us that we are all sinners and not worthy of Heaven in our un-redeemed state.
In Revelation 20:15 God casts "all who were not written in the book of life" into the lake of fire. If a just God casts the sinner into the lake of fire, then the sinner is deserving of the lake of fire. If the sinner were not deserving of the lake of fire, then that would make God unjust. All us were sinners before Salvation. We all deserved the lake of fire. In our own righteousness, we still deserve the lake. Thank God for the imputed righteousness we receive from His Son Jesus. In Jesus, we are worthy of Heaven. In our own righteousness, we are worthy of the Lake of fire.

Brother Mark
May 7th 2008, 12:54 PM
Wait a minute... where did you read this in the Scripture?


Ed


Since your the second person to ask this question, I figured I might throw a couple of scriptures out there.


Rom 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
NASB

That's just one, but there are others. All who sin are deserving of hell. That's why we need a savior... to save us from our sins.

ProDeo
May 7th 2008, 06:58 PM
Since your the second person to ask this question, I figured I might throw a couple of scriptures out there.


Rom 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
NASB

That's just one, but there are others. All who sin are deserving of hell.

So in your opinion the text reads as: "for all have sinned and deserve hell".

It doesn't state that.

Don't we believe we are born in sin? Isn't it also a fact that we don't had any say about our existence which was just the will of our parents? So how can an all-loving and all-righteous God say to every new born baby that he/she deserves eternal punishment and torment in the Lake of Fire? It doesn't make any sense to me. I am not following a cruel God but a loving One.

The penalty of sin is second death, the destruction of the soul in the Lake of Fire. We are born in sin, not written in the Book of Life and are given the opportunity to have our name in by Jesus Christ and are given a whole lifetime to come to that decision.

It's so much different then saying we deserve the Lake of Fire, we don't deserve it, it's simply the result of sin, a penalty, a fact. The word "deserve" would qualify if every new born baby had been fully aware of the risks involved being born in this world and having the choice not to be born at all because of that. It's not that way, God decided otherwise.

When every knee will bow (Philippians 2:9-11) even hardcore atheists can (will?) still be thankful for the years God gave them on Earth before being destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

If that makes me an annihilationist so be it :)

Ed

Reynolds357
May 7th 2008, 07:23 PM
So in your opinion the text reads as: "for all have sinned and deserve hell".

It doesn't state that.

Don't we believe we are born in sin? Isn't it also a fact that we don't had any say about our existence which was just the will of our parents? So how can an all-loving and all-righteous God say to every new born baby that he/she deserves eternal punishment and torment in the Lake of Fire? It doesn't make any sense to me. I am not following a cruel God but a loving One.

The penalty of sin is second death, the destruction of the soul in the Lake of Fire. We are born in sin, not written in the Book of Life and are given the opportunity to have our name in by Jesus Christ and are given a whole lifetime to come to that decision.

It's so much different then saying we deserve the Lake of Fire, we don't deserve it, it's simply the result of sin, a penalty, a fact. The word "deserve" would qualify if every new born baby had been fully aware of the risks involved being born in this world and having the choice not to be born at all because of that. It's not that way, God decided otherwise.

When every knee will bow (Philippians 2:9-11) even hardcore atheists can (will?) still be thankful for the years God gave them on Earth before being destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

If that makes me an annihilationist so be it :)

Ed

Now, you are going backwards. We agreed on the fact earlier that God is Just. Are you wanting to go back now and discuss whether God is or is not Just. "For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God."
That verse merely settles the fact that no one is righteous. As I pointed out, God will judge at the white throne. He will cast all unrighteous in the lake of fire. If you agree that God is a just God, then how can you say that man does not deserve the punishment that God gives?

James 2:10 (King James Version)

10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

If you have committed one sin, you have committed every sin. To say that you do not deserve hell, you would have to throw James 2:10 out of the Bible, among many other references.

You are an annihilationist if you believe that hell is not eternal. You share a very dangerous doctrine with the Jehovah's witnesses. This doctrine, until recently, was almost non-existent outside the Watch Tower society. Do you not think it odd that the protestant church has always held that hell is eternal? Has the entire protestant church had this wrong for so many years and needed the Watch Tower to correct them? I think Not!

With scripture, how do you refute the scriptures we posted showing that the lake of fire is eternal?
The first thing you need is scripture to counter the scriptures we have posted that most definitely tell us Hell, even though it changes forms, is eternal.

Brother Mark
May 7th 2008, 07:31 PM
So in your opinion the text reads as: "for all have sinned and deserve hell".

It doesn't state that.

Don't we believe we are born in sin? Isn't it also a fact that we don't had any say about our existence which was just the will of our parents? So how can an all-loving and all-righteous God say to every new born baby that he/she deserves eternal punishment and torment in the Lake of Fire? It doesn't make any sense to me. I am not following a cruel God but a loving One.

The penalty of sin is second death, the destruction of the soul in the Lake of Fire. We are born in sin, not written in the Book of Life and are given the opportunity to have our name in by Jesus Christ and are given a whole lifetime to come to that decision.

It's so much different then saying we deserve the Lake of Fire, we don't deserve it, it's simply the result of sin, a penalty, a fact. The word "deserve" would qualify if every new born baby had been fully aware of the risks involved being born in this world and having the choice not to be born at all because of that. It's not that way, God decided otherwise.

When every knee will bow (Philippians 2:9-11) even hardcore atheists can (will?) still be thankful for the years God gave them on Earth before being destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

We deserve hell because we are sinners. All have sinned.

As for whether or not God is just, he is just in everything he does. If he says sinners will burn for eternity in hell, then he is just in that and it lessens his love not one iota.

Matt 25:46
46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
NASB

mikebr
May 7th 2008, 08:18 PM
"For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God"

An interesting study would be the word Glory.

I believe that it simply means the manifestation of God.


For all have sinned and fall short of the manifestation of God.

!oh yeah and that eternal word to!

Reynolds357
May 7th 2008, 08:40 PM
"For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God"

An interesting study would be the word Glory.

I believe that it simply means the manifestation of God.


For all have sinned and fall short of the manifestation of God.

!oh yeah and that eternal word to!

This passage will clear up any ambiguity that the above passage left you with.

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

The scriptures are posted on the previous page that shows that hell is eternal. That point needs no further clarification.

mikebr
May 7th 2008, 08:45 PM
This passage will clear up any ambiguity that the above passage left you with.

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

The scriptures are posted on the previous page that shows that hell is eternal. That point needs no further clarification.


Have you ever studied the word "eternal?"

Reynolds357
May 7th 2008, 08:51 PM
Have you ever studied the word "eternal?"
Yes I have. It has three common meanings. The context in which I use the word is something that had a beginning, but no end.
Eternal can also be used to describe something with no beginning, nor end. However, I am using the more common meaning of the word.

mikebr
May 7th 2008, 10:59 PM
Yes I have. It has three common meanings. The context in which I use the word is something that had a beginning, but no end.
Eternal can also be used to describe something with no beginning, nor end. However, I am using the more common meaning of the word.

So you know that it is also translated "world"?

divaD
May 7th 2008, 11:51 PM
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Let's look at this verse for a second. What do we see here? We see two opposites. We see eternal/everlasting life, and we see eternal/everlasting death. If the wages of sin is death, then it can't be eternal life, it has to be eternal death, the complete opposite.


Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


For those willing to see, we see the very same thing in the above verse. We see two opposites. We know from Romans 6:23 that the wages of sin is death. This is what the punishment is, it's eternal/everlasting death, the opposite of eternal/everlasting life. It couldn't be any clearer. If the waqes of sin is death, then it has to be everlasting death, or it's not death at all.

Brother Mark
May 8th 2008, 12:46 AM
"For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God"

An interesting study would be the word Glory.

I believe that it simply means the manifestation of God.


For all have sinned and fall short of the manifestation of God.

!oh yeah and that eternal word to!

Funny thing about that word eternal, if eternal doesn't mean eternal for punishment, then it doesn't mean eternal for life either. But yet, God said we would have eternal life.

Rev 14:9-11

9 And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
NASB

That word, forever and forever is qualified here to indicate they would never have rest.

ProDeo
May 8th 2008, 02:38 AM
We agreed on the fact earlier that God is Just. Are you wanting to go back now and discuss whether God is or is not Just. "For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God."
That verse merely settles the fact that no one is righteous. As I pointed out, God will judge at the white throne. He will cast all unrighteous in the lake of fire. If you agree that God is a just God, then how can you say that man does not deserve the punishment that God gives?

I agree with all you say above except with the underlined. I haven't said that nor implied it.

In answer to you and BM I say that the word "deserve" is a bad chosen word. The word "deserve" implies there was a choice, the choice not to sin. Well, there isn't any choice since we were born in sin. Our nature is to sin. Already as a baby we show outbursts of anger every time we don't get it our way, we plague our little sisters or brothers till they cry. And and and... Do these little ones deserve to be tormented in all eternity?

Come on.... that's an insult to God's Love.


For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

100% agree.

"For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God." - Right to the point, well spoken Paul.

Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" - Very well spoken Lord!

I think we are hair-splitting about the word "deserve". Of course without repent we will not be in the Book of Life and thus eventually thrown in the Lake of Fire, we deserve to be thrown in the Lake of Fire not because we are born in sin, and thus sin, but because we willfully have rejected God and not have taken the exit door He offered us, his Son Jesus Christ.

We, unless God in the Flesh, never had the opportunity to lead a sinless life. Only the Godly nature of Jesus had this opportunity and demonstrated that.


You are an annihilationist if you believe that hell is not eternal.

Hell is not eternal indeed, see Revelation 20:14

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


You share a very dangerous doctrine with the Jehovah's witnesses. This doctrine, until recently, was almost non-existent outside the Watch Tower society. Do you not think it odd that the protestant church has always held that hell is eternal? Has the entire protestant church had this wrong for so many years and needed the Watch Tower to correct them? I think Not!

No good argument, the Protestant church has its own unbiblical doctrines, baby baptism by sprinkling for instance.


With scripture, how do you refute the scriptures we posted showing that the lake of fire is eternal?

There is nothing to refute, the Lake of Fire is indeed eternal, hell is not ;)

Ed

ProDeo
May 8th 2008, 02:55 AM
And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

That's a text to remember for Annihilationists ;)

Very good BM!

Ed

divaD
May 8th 2008, 03:06 AM
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Let's look at this verse for a second. What do we see here? We see two opposites. We see eternal/everlasting life, and we see eternal/everlasting death. If the wages of sin is death, then it can't be eternal life, it has to be eternal death, the complete opposite.


Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


For those willing to see, we see the very same thing in the above verse. We see two opposites. We know from Romans 6:23 that the wages of sin is death. This is what the punishment is, it's eternal/everlasting death, the opposite of eternal/everlasting life. It couldn't be any clearer. If the waqes of sin is death, then it has to be everlasting death, or it's not death at all.



I feel I need to further clarify the perspective that I am seeing this from.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let's consider the eternal life aspect of this verse for a moment. My point is to try and show that the wages of sin is in ref to the second death and cannot apply to believers, nor the first death, our physical death.

If we were to take eternal life literally, then it would mean that when we accepted Christ, we would at that moment live forever and never die. But we know this is not the case, since there is physical death to contend with for most, but not for all. I'll get back to that in a moment.



1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


This is when eternal life begins. Now getting back to not everyone physically dying...

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Here we clearly see that some will not die a physical death. So the wages of sin is death, cannot be in ref to the first death, the physical death, nor believers in Christ, since the ones that are alive and remain would not be included if the wages of sin is death was in ref to our physical death, so it must be in ref to the second and final death. And just like I stated, if the wages of sin is death, then this is the everlasting punisment, the opposite of everlasting life.

divaD
May 8th 2008, 03:09 AM
That's a text to remember for Annihilationists ;)

Very good BM!

Ed



Not really, Ed. It's just a matter of reading those verses from the correct perspective and within context. Those verses are taken out of context perhaps more than any verses in the Bible.

Brother Mark
May 8th 2008, 03:56 AM
That's a text to remember for Annihilationists ;)

Very good BM!

Ed

It is a good verse for them to ponder and perhaps change their mind. But hey, some folks have a hard time believing that eternal torment in hell is just. I think scripture clearly teaches it, but many don't want to believe it.

Brother Mark
May 8th 2008, 03:58 AM
Not really, Ed. It's just a matter of reading those verses from the correct perspective and within context. Those verses are taken out of context perhaps more than any verses in the Bible.

The context is eternal suffering. ;)

ProDeo
May 8th 2008, 09:34 AM
Not really, Ed. It's just a matter of reading those verses from the correct perspective and within context. Those verses are taken out of context perhaps more than any verses in the Bible.

Well, there is no way around those humans who are clearly described to suffer in eternity, those: who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

From the Annihilationists stance one could argue this is a) due to level of their sin. I mean, we know that sinning against the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable, there is a gradation of sin and b) it is limited to those.

But one thing for sure, there will be humans in the Lake of Fire that will not die the second death and suffer with the fallen angels forever. Meaning, that not every unbeliever will be destroyed.

Ed

ProDeo
May 8th 2008, 11:11 AM
It is a good verse for them to ponder and perhaps change their mind. But hey, some folks have a hard time believing that eternal torment in hell is just. I think scripture clearly teaches it, but many don't want to believe it.

I am sure it is just, it is just because God says so. It's clear from the Scripture there will be humans that will be tormented forever. In this thread we (with our limited minds) are trying to figure out why their eternal torment is just. And that is not so clear because we are missing several pieces of the puzzle. Some are curious and ask questions, not because we doubt, but because they feel there is more to discover. Others (you?) take it for granted and are less interested in the complete picture. Your stance is that all unbelievers will suffer and be tormented forever and ever, correct me if I am wrong. It looks like a safe stance in which you can't go wrong, but is it?

I think there is enough Biblical evidence not all unbelievers will be tormented forever when thrown in the Lake of Fire. Enough to have a good pondering about the issue.

Matt 10:28 And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Question: if an unbeliever is sentenced by God to the Lake of Fire to be tormented forever and that unbeliever in defense says the following, "I know God that I have sinned, I know I have rejected You, by why oh God did You had me born, I never asked to be born, I never had a free will in that, please uncreate me". Does the unbeliever has a point? Tricky one. Tricky because the fallen angels could argue similar. But then the fallen angels had daily access to the throne of God while we are limited to Hebrews 11:6, quite a difference.

Ed

Brother Mark
May 8th 2008, 11:17 AM
I am sure it is just, it is just because God says so. It's clear from the Scripture there will be humans that will be tormented forever. In this thread we (with our limited minds) are trying to figure out why their eternal torment is just. And that is not so clear because we are missing several pieces of the puzzle. Some are curious and ask questions, not because we doubt, but because they feel there is more to discover. Others (you?) take it for granted and are less interested in the complete picture. Your stance is that all unbelievers will suffer and be tormented forever and ever, correct me if I am wrong. It looks like a safe stance in which you can't go wrong, but is it?

I think there is enough Biblical evidence not all unbelievers will be tormented forever when thrown in the Lake of Fire. Enough to have a good pondering about the issue.

Matt 10:28 And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Question: if an unbeliever is sentenced by God to the Lake of Fire to be tormented forever and that unbeliever in defense says the following, "I know God that I have sinned, I know I have rejected You, by why oh God did You had me born, I never asked to be born, I never had a free will in that, please uncreate me". Does the unbeliever has a point? Tricky one. Tricky because the fallen angels could argue similar. But then the fallen angels had daily access to the throne of God while we are limited to Hebrews 11:6, quite a difference.

Ed

Romans deals with your question.

Rom 9:19-24

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
NASB

If people deny God, then what leg will they have to stand on? Doesn't matter if they requested to be made or not. They are not God. If they submit to God, they are blessed. If they resist God, they are damned.

On another note, if the lake of fire is indeed death, then how do you deal with the verses I quoted above? They are IN the lake of fire.

Rev 20:10
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
NASB

The lake of fire is the second death, yet it will not kill Satan and his angels in the way we like to think. Here's another verse...

Rev 20:14-15
14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
NASB

All those not found written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire. ALL of em. Yet, look what happens to these that are placed there.

Rev 14:9-11

9 And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
NASB

These folks are not in the book of life and are thrown into the lake of fire. The second death is eternal separation from God and eternal torment. This is the wages of sin... death in the lake of fire.

Reynolds357
May 8th 2008, 01:45 PM
So you know that it is also translated "world"?
The English word "eternal" is not translated "world" in the English language. If you are discussing Hebrew or Greek roots, go back to the Hebrew or Greek for the discussion.

Reynolds357
May 8th 2008, 01:56 PM
There is nothing to refute, the Lake of Fire is indeed eternal, hell is not ;)

Ed
Like 99% of Christians, when I use the word "hell," I use it to reference the place of eternal punishment. "Hades" is cast into "the lake of fire." You agree that the lake of fire is eternal. Hades is the holding place for the unrighteous until their judgment and their sentence at the white throne. When the unrighteous of the world have been judged, then Hades is cast into the lake of fire. For discussion in English, both the lake of fire, Hades, Gehenna, and sometimes sheol are hell.
If you want to split hairs on terminology, then we must not use the English word Hell in our discussion. We must use Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, and lake of fire. The English word Hell refers to all the above in some fashion. If you want a discussion that is accurate right down to the most miniscule detail, we should stop using the word Hell and use Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, and lake of fire.

divaD
May 8th 2008, 10:47 PM
Romans deals with your question.

Rom 9:19-24

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
NASB

If people deny God, then what leg will they have to stand on? Doesn't matter if they requested to be made or not. They are not God. If they submit to God, they are blessed. If they resist God, they are damned.

On another note, if the lake of fire is indeed death, then how do you deal with the verses I quoted above? They are IN the lake of fire.

Rev 20:10
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
NASB

The lake of fire is the second death, yet it will not kill Satan and his angels in the way we like to think. Here's another verse...

Rev 20:14-15
14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
NASB

All those not found written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire. ALL of em. Yet, look what happens to these that are placed there.

Rev 14:9-11

9 And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
NASB

These folks are not in the book of life and are thrown into the lake of fire. The second death is eternal separation from God and eternal torment. This is the wages of sin... death in the lake of fire.




9 And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and
receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full
strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the
presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night,
those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.



I've tried to explain this in the past. Try reading this from the perspective that it is in, and that is not from the perspective of the lake of fire, but from the perspective of the wrath of God being poured out upon these. Rev 14:9-11
takes place at least 1 thousand yrs prior to the white throne judgment.

The reason there is no rest day and night, is because God's wrath is being continually, without pause, poured out upon these.


Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


What do we see after this scene?



Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


In the verses preceeding these, we see angels pleading with those that dwell on the earth to worship God and to fear Him.

In verses 9-11, the 3rd angel gives a warning with a loud voice. They're warned to not worship the beast and his image, nor receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand.

Then this angel proclaims the consequences if one does any of this.

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.


These are the ones that will be killed for not worshipping the beast and his image.



Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


These are the saints we saw in Rev 14:12-13. Notice when this occurs.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


We're clearly shown here that this transpires at least a thousand yrs before the white throne judgment, which occurs a millenium later, after satan is loosed out of his prison.

The correct perspective to interpret Rev 14 is from the perspective of the wrath of God being poured out on those that worship the beast and his image.

Revelation is written in such a way, that we have to be able to see the perspective that we are reading from at anytime, is in, in order to even begin to understand it.

With all of this said, try reading Rev ch 14 from the perspective of Rev ch 16, the correct perspective. This is why there is no rest for these in ch 14, and why the smoke of there torment ascendeth up forever(which is not to be taken literally, but to be interpreted as a figure of speech).

Brother Mark
May 9th 2008, 08:13 PM
This is why there is no rest for these in ch 14, and why the smoke of there torment ascendeth up forever(which is not to be taken literally, but to be interpreted as a figure of speech).

It can be taken quite literally because it is taught throughout scripture. This concept of anihilation doesn't hold up to scrutiny. They are tormented forever and ever. As you mentioned, God's wrath is being poured out. He is not going to pour it out when the problem that caused it is gone. Shoot, once the situation is dealt with, there is no longer any reason for wrath. So if his wrath is being poured out forever, then take it to the bank, that which it is being poured out on is still an issue. Why is it still an issue? Because they are still around in the lake of fire suffering the second death, which is eternal punishment.

rush4hire
May 11th 2008, 06:13 PM
Hades and Gheh'-en-nah

When Jesus said: "fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Mt 10:26)

The word for "hell" here is gheh'-en-nah.

Gheh'-en-nah is the place where they burned their trash outside Jerusalem. Sometimes they put dead people who where stoned and where not considered worthy of a decent burial. They would keep the fire burning day and night to keep the stench down. And there where always maggots there as much of the trash was organic.

This was the place where "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mk 9:44)

"Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them" (Mt 13:30)

The wicked are burned like trash.

Now here is a completly different meaning for the word "hell".

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

In this case "hell" is translated from "Hades". Hades and Ghehennah are two totally different things. I wish I could go back in time and instruct the bible translators.


Eternal fire destroys.

Jude 1:7 ..Sodom and Gomorrha, ... are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Matt. 3:12 Whose fan in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

Ez 20:47 ...Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.

Heb 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.

Num 16:45 Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment

Ex 33:5 Ye [are] a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee:

Rev 20:9 ..and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The term "everlasting punishment", (not eternal punishment, that's bad translation), is the same thing as "everlasting destruction"

2 Thes. 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


For Ever in the Bible

There are at least 50 verses in the bible where the term "for ever" is used to denote an period of time which has already past. "For ever" usually means an indefinite amount of time, not an infinite amount of time.

Matthew 21:19 ..and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

That fig tree is not there today because it suffered a "for ever" or everlasting curse.

Exodus 21:6 ..and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.
Duet 15:17 Then thou shalt take an awl, and thrust [it] through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever.

He served his master "for ever" until he died.

Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars [was] about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Jonah would have been in that dark place for ever until he died if God hadn't intervened.

1 Sam. 1:22 But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, [I will not go up] until the child be weaned, and [then] I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD, and there abide for ever.

In this case "for ever" meant "as long as he liveth", or until he died.

1 Sam. 1:28 Therefore also I have lent him to the LORD; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the LORD.

2 Kings 5:27 The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever. And he went out from his presence a leper [as white] as snow.

If he had decided not to have children or somehow his lineage ended, thats how long "for ever" lasted in this case. The curse does not guarantee him an endless lineage.


The Immortal Soul docrine

Neither does "for ever" when applied to the wicked grant them eternal life in hell fire. The wicked don't get eternal life, only the righteous. [I]"no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (John 3:15)

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

It is the Devil who said: "you shall not surely die".
That is why it is a universal teaching among the gentile religions that man has an "immortal soul".

Somehow this belief crept in among Christians and in the name of Christ is being taught today. No wonder many theologians teach that all religions are acceptable unto God and that the whole world is being converted. But the bible teaches: "..that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils,.." (1 Cor. 10:20)

But Christianity does not teach man has an immortal soul. Christianity teaches that Jesus resurrects man at his second coming, which docrine is unique to Christianity. Resurrection is not taught in any pagan religion.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.



There are no such terms in the bible as:

immortal soul
spend eternity in hell
eternal torment
everlasting torment
we all know that [so-n-so] is in hell right now

Conclusion


Non-biblical, pagan teachings came into Christian thinking during the Dark Ages when Christians didn't have bibles to read or bible reading was forbidden by their church, but they fully trusted and depended upon their priests and the traditions of the people for authority on spiritual matters.

Less than honest clergy would exploit the superstitions of the people and persuade them to give money and services to the church in order to buy mercy from God so He can let their dead loved ones out of Purgatory.

"When the coin in my coffers clings
The soul from Purgatory springs!"
- from the jingle of an Indulgence peddler.

This is the main thing that incited Martin Luther against the apostasies of his church.

If you read Dante's Inferno, you will get an idea of some of the ridiculous notions alot of people had about hell. But much of the mythology of the Dark Ages, is still popular among the masses to this day.

I know I didn't do this topic justice. When I have time, I'll write a proper report.

Brother Mark
May 11th 2008, 08:51 PM
Eternal fire destroys.

It destroys the earthly sodom and gomorrah. But it did not destroy the rich man who lifted up his eyes in hell.[/quote]

You are right that the fire is eternal. But not right that the suffering is quenched.


The term "everlasting punishment", (not eternal punishment, that's bad translation), is the same thing as "everlasting destruction"

2 Thes. 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Rev 20:10
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
NASB

Neither the devil nor his angels are consumed by the eternal fire that you stated earlier will consume. Interesting.

Rev 14:9-12

9 And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
NASB

As for the ones who worship the beast, they have no rest. Or as Jesus said when he referred to death no "sleep".




For Ever in the Bible

There are at least 50 verses in the bible where the term "for ever" is used to denote an period of time which has already past. "For ever" usually means an indefinite amount of time, not an infinite amount of time.

Matthew 21:19 ..and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

That fig tree is not there today because it suffered a "for ever" or everlasting curse.

The tree wasn't cursed to death. It was cursed so that it would never again bear fruit. Having lost it's purpose, it died. But the point is, it is still not bearing fruit. Nor will it ever again bear fruit. The curse was forever, not for a time being.



The Immortal Soul docrine

Neither does "for ever" when applied to the wicked grant them eternal life in hell fire.

Since when would one equate the second death to life? Living in hell is not living nor is it meant to be. It is dying for eternity. God is life. In the lake of fire, one is separated from Him who is life. That does not mean that one can no longer feel the torment. The rich man, being in hell, lifted up his eyes. He was not consumed. But rather, he was in torment. He is still in torment today.

divaD
May 12th 2008, 03:11 PM
It destroys the earthly sodom and gomorrah. But it did not destroy the rich man who lifted up his eyes in hell.

You are right that the fire is eternal. But not right that the suffering is quenched.



Rev 20:10
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
NASB

Neither the devil nor his angels are consumed by the eternal fire that you stated earlier will consume. Interesting.

Rev 14:9-12

9 And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
NASB

As for the ones who worship the beast, they have no rest. Or as Jesus said when he referred to death no "sleep".



[SIZE=4][COLOR=darkred]

The tree wasn't cursed to death. It was cursed so that it would never again bear fruit. Having lost it's purpose, it died. But the point is, it is still not bearing fruit. Nor will it ever again bear fruit. The curse was forever, not for a time being.

[SIZE=4][COLOR=darkred]


Since when would one equate the second death to life? Living in hell is not living nor is it meant to be. It is dying for eternity. God is life. In the lake of fire, one is separated from Him who is life. That does not mean that one can no longer feel the torment. The rich man, being in hell, lifted up his eyes. He was not consumed. But rather, he was in torment. He is still in torment today.[/QUOTE]


Brother Mark, so according to this reasoning, souls are already burning in hell, as with the case of the rich man. So what is the point of the lake of fire at the white throne judgment, when hell will be emptied into it? On one hand the rich man is currently burning in hell, and on the other hand, this same rich man will be taken out of these flames and cast into some different flames, the lake of fire. That just doesn't make sense. If the rich man is currently engulfed in flames, then that means that he has already been judged and sentenced. But that sure seems to go against what the book of Rev teaches.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



I still have to wonder why God would see the need to take these out of one fire, only to cast them into another fire?
I see the account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 for what it is, and that's a parable. It couldn't possibly be meant to be taken literally. Anyone being literally engulfed in flames
would require more than a mere drop of water to cool their tongue. And besides, anyone being literally engulfed in flames, especially flames of hell, these would not be able to reason. These would be screaming hysterically, not conversating with those on the other side of the gulf, hoping for just a mere drop of water to cool thei tongues.

I feel there is a deeper message to be learned from the account of the the rich man and Lazarus. While I feel I understand some of that deeper message, I do not yet understand it in it's entirety. With that in mind, I won't try to interpret it in it's entirety just yet. But I am convinced that it shouldn't be taken literally, and that it is a parable.

Brother Mark
May 12th 2008, 03:28 PM
Brother Mark, so according to this reasoning, souls are already burning in hell, as with the case of the rich man. So what is the point of the lake of fire at the white throne judgment, when hell will be emptied into it? On one hand the rich man is currently burning in hell, and on the other hand, this same rich man will be taken out of these flames and cast into some different flames, the lake of fire. That just doesn't make sense. If the rich man is currently engulfed in flames, then that means that he has already been judged and sentenced. But that sure seems to go against what the book of Rev teaches.

Even in our own prison systems, we put folks in prison and leave them there until their court date. Some pay bale and get released till their sentencing, some don't get that opportunity. In hell, no one gets to pay bale. They wait there till they are judged.


Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

That would be true. Judged later and removed from hell and thrown into the lake of fire.


I still have to wonder why God would see the need to take these out of one fire, only to cast them into another fire?

Perhaps here is a clue. What if God decided... That's what Romans 9 speaks about. If God decides to do something, he can do it.

Rom 9:20
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
NASB

The question is not "why does he do X" but rather "does he do X". If he does, then we teach it. If he reveals why, then we teach that too. But understanding that he does X, is vital to moving into understanding why he does X. If we first eliminate the does, based on a lack of understanding of why, we can fall into error.


I see the account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 for what it is, and that's a parable. It couldn't possibly be meant to be taken literally. Anyone being literally engulfed in flames
would require more than a mere drop of water to cool their tongue. And besides, anyone being literally engulfed in flames, especially flames of hell, these would not be able to reason. These would be screaming hysterically, not conversating with those on the other side of the gulf, hoping for just a mere drop of water to cool thei tongues.

If you thought your only hope for relief was to conversate, perhaps you would compose yourself long enough to speak. But Jesus also said there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth, which also indicated great torment. And he clearly said the rich man "being in torment". And he said he was burning.


I feel there is a deeper message to be learned from the account of the the rich man and Lazarus. While I feel I understand some of that deeper message, I do not yet understand it in it's entirety. With that in mind, I won't try to interpret it in it's entirety just yet. But I am convinced that it shouldn't be taken literally, and that it is a parable.

It could be a parable, yet in this parable he named names. That is rare indeed. I can't think of any other parable where one was named. One thing is certain, he was teaching warning the Pharisees about being tormented after death.

ARCHER42
May 12th 2008, 05:24 PM
Some thoughts to ponder:

For believers they will be given a 'resurrected' body like Jesus Christ's at His return for His bride. Not susceptible to sin or death or decay.... thus 'death' was defeated by His resurrection. He is the first fruit. according to the power of His resurrection. We get to partake in that by what He did. Thats His PROMISE to His children.

NOW, when the wicked or spiritually dead that are judged at the Great White Throne of Judgement... are their bodies reunited with their soul and spirit before they are cast into the lake of fire. It states that the 'sea', 'death and hell' gave up its dead only to Stand before Him that was on the throne. Those that were not found in the Lambs Book of Life were judged according to those books written. They were cast into the Lake of Fire.

God's Holy Spirit is everywhere... even in Hades.. the place of departed souls. Thats because He is Omnipresent...being everywhere at the same time. We know God is a consuming fire.. as the bush that Moses saw burned yet it did not consume.. Could it be that the Lake of Fire would be a fire that the wicked and the devil and his angels are tossed into.. a fire that burns but doesnt consume thier bodies? Talk about torment.. burning yet never consuming.. always feeling the pain.. being conscious of it. Also being totally separated from God... I wonder if He'll remove His Holy Spirit from the Lake of Fire.. that would make it even more tormenting... burning and 100% total separation from God forever. Could this be the second death? Total separation from God both physical and spiritual... plus the torment of the flame that burns yet does not consume......

I know that at one point in time.... 'everything' that harbors 'death' will give it up to be judged one final time.. and then 'death' itself will be dealt away.. so when you get to the New Heavens and New Earth.. there is no more death or decay or sin... Just as it was suppose to be in the Garden of Eden. God made it possible thru His Own's Son's Sacrafice.. on the tree and His resurrection after that. What a Saviour!


Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of the life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 5:28-29

divaD
May 12th 2008, 06:11 PM
God's Holy Spirit is everywhere... even in Hades.. the place of departed souls. Thats because He is Omnipresent...being
everywhere at the same time.


You know, I've heard this before. I find it to be not Biblical. It is true, the Holy Spirit is Omnipresent. But the Bible does teach that tho He has these abilities, He still chooses where He wants to be. If the Holy Spirit were everywhere like you claim, then that would mean that everyone is filled with the Holy Spirit, including satan and his ilk. And as far as the Holy Spirit being everywhere, including hades, I refuse to believe that. That is not Biblical. Why would He need to be in a place where there is no hope?

My point, being everywhere at the same time doesn't literally mean being everywhere at the same time in ref to one being, such as the Holy Spirit. Haven't you ever wondered why God has myriads of angels? Somewhere in the OT it speaks of the eyes of the Lord beholding both good and evil. Personally, I have from yrs ago interpreted that to pertaining to God's angels.

ARCHER42
May 12th 2008, 06:39 PM
Whither shallI go from thy Spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence.

If I ascend up into Heaven; thou ART THERE: if I MAKE MY BED IN HELL, BEHOLD, THOUR ART THERE.

If I take the wings of the uttermost parts of the sea:
Even there thy Right Hand shall hold me.
Psalm 139:7-9

This makes it pretty BIBLICAL to me...

Jesus Himself descended into these parts and 'preached' unto the spirits that were there in prison. To say that God wouldn't be there or His presense or Spirit wouldnt be there just doesn't line up with the Word.

God is Omnipresent... His Spirit is Omnipresent because He can be anywhere, everywhere at the same time. To reduce this and 'water it down' is to reduce His Diety. I believe His Spirit is in Hell.. because He says it in His Word.. I believe His word Literally.....

Its funny you bring that up and not to get off track... I hear alot of people 'inviting' the Holy Spirit... He's already there.. You don' have to invite Him...

ARCHER42
May 12th 2008, 07:01 PM
If the Holy Spirit were everywhere like you claim, then that would mean that everyone is filled with the Holy Spirit, including satan and his ilk.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Just because the Holy Ghost is there doesnt mean He is filling or indwelling all creatures.... The Holy Ghost today is present in this fallen world.. and look He doesnt 'fill' everybody. If He did you would have total paradise on this earth.. and you don't. I don't find anywhere in the Bible where it states that the Holy Ghost will 'fill' all creatures. That doesnt make sense and that's not what I meant.

divaD
May 12th 2008, 11:07 PM
If the Holy Spirit were everywhere like you claim, then that would mean that everyone is filled with the Holy Spirit, including satan and his ilk.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Just because the Holy Ghost is there doesnt mean He is filling or indwelling all creatures.... The Holy Ghost today is present in this fallen world.. and look He doesnt 'fill' everybody. If He did you would have total paradise on this earth.. and you don't. I don't find anywhere in the Bible where it states that the Holy Ghost will 'fill' all creatures. That doesnt make sense and that's not what I meant.




Of course it doesn't make sense, that's the point. You specifically stated that the Holy Spirit was everywhere at the same time, and this includes hades. Like I stated, I've heard this before. Those that stated this, claimed the Holy Spirit was even in every blade of grass, every carpet fiber, etc. According to them, there is nowhere His presence isn't.

For me to take literal what you stated, then that means that there can't be one place, one spec, where the Holy Spirit isn't, otherwise He is not everywhere at the same time. So unless you want to go the same route as these others, by saying the Holy Spirit occupies every spec there is at the same time, then the Holy Spirit couldn't possibly be occupying hades, because He is not everywhere at the same time. He is everywhere He wants to be at the same time, but He is not everywhere, nor anywhere He doesn't want to be.