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puregospeltruth
May 6th 2008, 08:45 PM
Many of you have heard about the "revival" going on in Florida under Todd Bentley. We need to take caution and examine these things by their fruits. I wanted to post here a couple videos that show some of the manifestations from this revival.

Video 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX9xdw6aT9c&feature=related
This video shows a man testifying of what he has experienced and then shows Todd Bentley imparting this "anointing" to him by kneeing him in the stomach. The man proceeds to shake and convulse violently.

Video 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLOgb9ng2F4&feature=related
This video shows the same man in his hotel room sharing the same story about the angel. A few minutes into it, he convulses, gets thrashed by an unseen force, hits his head very hard, and manifests like an epileptic on the floor while his friends laugh hysterically.

Now, I haven't said anything good or bad about this revival, just posting these things to make them known. I will let everyone decide for himself. Just know that these are real manifestations occuring and Todd Bentley is the one causing them to occur.


For more on this revival, and to know what I think about it, click here: http://www.puregospeltruth.com/healing-revival-lakeland-florida-todd-bentley.html

markedward
May 6th 2008, 09:04 PM
Revivals happen almost once or twice every generation. There were revivals in the 1900's, there were revivals in the 1800's, in the 1700's, and on back. Classifying it as an end-times revival or deception is hardly called for if similar events have happened in the past. That would be like calling the Iraq War a sign of the end-times simply because it's a war, while ignoring the Vietnam War, the Korean War, World War II, World War I, etc.

Related websites:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revivalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_blessing
http://www.evanwiggs.com/history.html

markedward
May 6th 2008, 09:10 PM
What I am interested in knowing is...

How does the revival actually play out?

What we read or see in the news is just masses of people trying to crowd into a church or onto stage to get healed.

Is there any organization to this? Is there any time specifically set aside, for everyone to shut up and listen to someone reading Scripture, where someone gets on stage and reads the Truth to the crowds? It happens now and then that people, even Christians, get into the delusion that they need physical healing. Which is more important, physical health or spiritual health? Jesus performed miracles - if you read the Scriptures people went to Him for physical healing. But what He taught was spiritual healing, in Him. The physical healings are a sign to the people, but the spiritual healing is the most important thing. That's what I want to know, are they making the spiritual health an important aspect in this revival, or are they just sticking to physical health?

markedward
May 6th 2008, 09:28 PM
(Third post, woo.)

I just finished watching the first video...

And what I see there is nothing like the physical healings we see in the Bible. I see a man who is becoming increasingly agitated, is kneed (well, it wasn't that hard, but still) in the stomach, and falls to the floor tweaking and twitching.

In the Bible, it was always a statement of "Be healed" and the person was healed, filled with strength. Not someone getting kicked in the stomach or smacked on the forehead, and the person drops the floor, completely weak and twitching involuntarily.

My immediate perception of what I see: this doesn't appeal to the Bible. This isn't good.

coolhandluke
May 6th 2008, 10:01 PM
I heard about the revival in Florida just recently. Its nice that you already looked into it for me, saves me some time. Thanks thats all I need to see. Good Website!!

IamBill
May 6th 2008, 10:08 PM
I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

ProjectPeter
May 7th 2008, 12:18 AM
Let me say a few things here just to make a few things clear.

1. On an official note... folks be careful what you say and how you treat this thread and what is happening in Florida. Keep in mind this fact... there are literally thousands of people attending every night and tens of thousands watching on the Internet and likely hundreds of thousands watching via Godtv. My personal opinion and yours aside... there are many people that think this real and think this a real revival etc. Just saying it is of the devil or some such does nothing for anyone short ticking them off and causing them to shut their ears to anything good said.

2. Todd Bentley, Joe Schmucky, myself or no other man has healed anyone save Jesus Christ when He walked this earth. Every other healing done since that day was done by the self same power of Jesus Christ.

3. Just because a bunch of folks who came to a revival then went to their hotel room and laughed like drunken sailors (no offense to the drunken sailors) and claimed it an anointing of God don't make it either an anointing of God nor does it make it something approved of by the person preaching the revival. Now... Todd well may approve of this but that isn't the point. Folks have a tendency to broad brush things when seeing stuff like this.

4. Drama rules with many a preacher. From the preacher that is talking normal and then is "crying" and yet not a tear in the eye and then switches right back to normal... to the preacher that uses some made up story that he knows didn't really happen... to the preacher that gets up there and falls on the floor acting like that same drunken sailor. Sure... there are degrees of exaggeration but why be legalistic about it. Drama is drama regardless of the degree.

On that note... and I will have more to say I am sure... be civil and act like the Christian folk you proclaim to be when discussing this issue in this thread.

This is not intended for any specific person in this thread already etc. I am just being ahead of the curve because I know well how these threads turn out. If a person starts being a jerk then your post will be deleted. No complaining if it happens.

Partaker of Christ
May 7th 2008, 12:26 AM
I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

Cry :cry:

There has recently been a lot of this guy on God Channel TV, here in the UK. I find it hard to watch more then a few minutes at a time.

amazzin
May 7th 2008, 12:54 AM
I heard about the revival in Florida just recently. Its nice that you already looked into it for me, saves me some time. Thanks thats all I need to see. Good Website!!

Always look into things yourself and always take the time to test it with scripture. Never depend on others for the things you should do yourself.

ProjectPeter
May 7th 2008, 12:55 AM
No real need to either laugh or cry guys. Just pray that whatever God wills in all of this be done.

IamBill
May 7th 2008, 01:40 AM
No real need to either laugh or cry guys. Just pray that whatever God wills in all of this be done.

Pretty much what I meant. I didn't watch the whole fist minute.

valleybldr
May 7th 2008, 01:45 AM
No real need to either laugh or cry guys. Just pray that whatever God wills in all of this be done. Well, if it's deception (and I lean in the direction) then" God's will" is not in it other then to allow it to take place. todd

Diggindeeper
May 7th 2008, 07:06 AM
I know one thing for certain...people (all of us) are so, SO hungry for real, God-sent REVIVAL, they go traveling for miles and miles, just in the hope of seeing a real move of God!

But, in my time, I HAVE been in real moves of God, and believe me, once you've experienced a holy move of the spirit of Almighty God, nothing but the real can ever, ever take its place.

Oh my, even I long for those days again...Oh Dear Jesus, just to see those days again...

But the moves of God that I recall, we didn't have to go here or go there...my goodness! We sometimes were in home Bible Studies, and miracles happened! Sometimes revival came in my own private home...it came to the work places--factories all around started having a 30 - 45 minute each day, when a preacher or teacher would come in and lead a Bible Study! Kids in schools were starting "Bible Clubs"...and owners of beer joints closed down, and churches sprang up in those same buildings!
Sinners actually came under conviction, and hurried to the church, and could not wait for an altar call to run to the altar and fall on their knees, crying out for God to save them!

I've seen it...I've seen precious Mothers and wives shout the roof almost off the building, when that worthless-drunken-no-good man found salvation! Salvation that TOOK, in those days! God took the bottle from town drunkards and replaced the bottle with the bible, and those former old drunks who would not work, and were cruel to their families, became Choir Leaders and Sunday School Teachers!

AND...none of us could read and hear enough of the WORD OF GOD! We were soaking it up like a sponge!

Yes, I know the real. Let me hear about these things again, and I want to be in it. But the trouble is, the real was contagious. People seemed to catch it from each other!

I just happen to believe real moves of God come to us. Do I need to go SOMEWHERE looking when I KNOW revival COMES to where we are? Am I too far off track? Here, I believe, is where revival starts....

2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Just a side note...gas is far too high now-adays to go running here and there in search for revival. Lord, start a revival again, and Lord, let it begin with me, and with each person on this board that is dedicated to you! Amen.

ProjectPeter
May 7th 2008, 12:00 PM
I know one thing for certain...people (all of us) are so, SO hungry for real, God-sent REVIVAL, they go traveling for miles and miles, just in the hope of seeing a real move of God!

But, in my time, I HAVE been in real moves of God, and believe me, once you've experienced a holy move of the spirit of Almighty God, nothing but the real can ever, ever take its place.

Oh my, even I long for those days again...Oh Dear Jesus, just to see those days again...

But the moves of God that I recall, we didn't have to go here or go there...my goodness! We sometimes were in home Bible Studies, and miracles happened! Sometimes revival came in my own private home...it came to the work places--factories all around started having a 30 - 45 minute each day, when a preacher or teacher would come in and lead a Bible Study! Kids in schools were starting "Bible Clubs"...and owners of beer joints closed down, and churches sprang up in those same buildings!
Sinners actually came under conviction, and hurried to the church, and could not wait for an altar call to run to the altar and fall on their knees, crying out for God to save them!

I've seen it...I've seen precious Mothers and wives shout the roof almost off the building, when that worthless-drunken-no-good man found salvation! Salvation that TOOK, in those days! God took the bottle from town drunkards and replaced the bottle with the bible, and those former old drunks who would not work, and were cruel to their families, became Choir Leaders and Sunday School Teachers!

AND...none of us could read and hear enough of the WORD OF GOD! We were soaking it up like a sponge!

Yes, I know the real. Let me hear about these things again, and I want to be in it. But the trouble is, the real was contagious. People seemed to catch it from each other!

I just happen to believe real moves of God come to us. Do I need to go SOMEWHERE looking when I KNOW revival COMES to where we are? Am I too far off track? Here, I believe, is where revival starts....

2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Just a side note...gas is far too high now-adays to go running here and there in search for revival. Lord, start a revival again, and Lord, let it begin with me, and with each person on this board that is dedicated to you! Amen.
Nothing at all wrong with that! :)

VerticalReality
May 7th 2008, 12:04 PM
I'm still not sure I understand the concept of "revival".

Are these churches that are going into "revival" dead or something? It seems to me that if you need some sort of revival you must just be a dead church. The folks in the bible didn't need "revival". They got that when they accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior and were baptized in the Holy Spirit. It seems when folks use the term "revival" today they are saying that they need something exciting to happen. They need something to stir their emotions and revive them out of this dead state they're in. This concept is troubling to me.

ProjectPeter
May 7th 2008, 12:19 PM
Technically that is what revival should be. Not that they are dead perhaps but maybe let's call it on the way to being so. :lol:

I think where folks really get this messed up a bit is in understanding the calling of an evangelist. And evangelist is not a "soul winner" as labeled by many. Now before folks get bunched up... ALL CHRISTIANS should be sharing the gospel with unbelievers and thus souls won. But that isn't the ministry of an evangelist. Just like the other five offices mentioned in Ephesians... and evangelist is to equip the saints to do the work of Christ. In that equipping it includes training them in taking the message to the lost. But the evangelist, no different than the pastor, is to ultimately equip the saints.

Now... Todd for example, calls himself a revivalist and I suppose that might be different but they operate more on the concept of reviving a dead city. Problem with that concept that I see... that would mean that at some point that city had to be alive. YOu can't revive someone that has never lived. So to start... I think that over the years, like with many other things, folks have redefined the calling of an evangelist.

Look... there is absolutely nothing at wrong with wanting something exciting to happen. Shoot... better than going every Sunday (rote) and singing three songs (rote), taking up the offering (rote) and then listening to half hour or so of someone droning on about some Scripture (rote). If a church has fallen into that and it is recognized and someone cranks it up a couple of notches... wonderful. We should feel excitement when we enter corporate worship. If not then it can quickly just turn into something we do because that is what we have always done and in the end... you fall into either that cold state or worse... the lukewarm state.

But there is a flipside to most everything. If a person is just going for the thrill of it all... that too can be problematic. And once it is jacked up a few notches and that becomes rote then folks jack it up a few more notches until that becomes rote and repeat... repeat... repeat... until soon... it is all just man made nonsense.

Here lies the problem I suppose. We can psycho-analyze why it is that folks seem to need this and we all know that there would be dozens of opinions on that issue from "they were never saved in the first place" to "they have gone stark raving lunatic and now are all going to fry in hell." So trying to figure out the why on a message board would be pretty near impossible! But this is pretty much the problem that we have. Can we fix it? In degrees in that we can make sure that we don't individually fall into such as that. But overall... probably not.

Anyway... tis early and my first post that required thinking and I am slow sipping that cup of coffee (cutting myself down to one cup a day now.... mind you it is 20 something ounces but still a lot less than normal :lol:) so if this don't make sense... I will try again later!

VerticalReality
May 7th 2008, 12:50 PM
Look... there is absolutely nothing at wrong with wanting something exciting to happen. Shoot... better than going every Sunday (rote) and singing three songs (rote), taking up the offering (rote) and then listening to half hour or so of someone droning on about some Scripture (rote). If a church has fallen into that and it is recognized and someone cranks it up a couple of notches... wonderful. We should feel excitement when we enter corporate worship. If not then it can quickly just turn into something we do because that is what we have always done and in the end... you fall into either that cold state or worse... the lukewarm state.

That was basically the point of my comment. If you need something exciting to happen to "revive" you it means that you currently aren't very excited. I find it a troubling reality that folks come to church and sit there like a bump on a pickle like they have 50 other things better to do than be in that church for a couple of hours worshiping the Lord and hearing His Word. I know that with some folks this is going to be inevitable, but when an entire church is this way I think you have some serious issues going on. When you aren't excited to feed on God's Word and give Him praise, folks really to examine where their heart is. Many folks today say the right things, but in their heart they just seem to be miles away.

ProjectPeter
May 7th 2008, 01:01 PM
That was basically the point of my comment. If you need something exciting to happen to "revive" you it means that you currently aren't very excited. I find it a troubling reality that folks come to church and sit there like a bump on a pickle like they have 50 other things better to do than be in that church for a couple of hours worshiping the Lord and hearing His Word. I know that with some folks this is going to be inevitable, but when an entire church is this way I think you have some serious issues going on. When you aren't excited to feed on God's Word and give Him praise, folks really to examine where their heart is. Many folks today say the right things, but in their heart they just seem to be miles away.
That happens though. I think that is much of what the letters to the seven churches show us in Revelation. Folks can get so caught up in whatever... things do become rote. They need a cattle prod type something happen to them just to jar them back into spiritual reality (for lack of a better way to describe it). Sure... it points to a problem somewhere. But even still... if they are in that deep of a lull... not sure without some reviving that they would even notice it.

ProDeo
May 7th 2008, 01:14 PM
My stomach turns seeing such video's. What you (IMO) see in these video's is an epileptic man. It's known from science epileptic people are vulnerable for having visions. A man from God gifted by the Holy Spirit to perform miracles would certainly know the difference between real and unreal.



Ed

VerticalReality
May 7th 2008, 01:26 PM
It's known from science epileptic people are vulnerable for having visions.

It is known from Scripture that epilepsy isn't of God either . . .



Matthew 17:14-18
And when they had come to the multitude, a man came to Him, kneeling down to Him and saying, “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and suffers severely; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water. So I brought him to Your disciples, but they could not cure him.” Then Jesus answered and said, “O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him here to Me.” And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour.

ProjectPeter
May 7th 2008, 01:37 PM
My stomach turns seeing such video's. What you (IMO) see in these video's is an epileptic man. It's known from science epileptic people are vulnerable for having visions. A man from God gifted by the Holy Spirit to perform miracles would certainly know the difference between real and unreal.



EdDo you realize what these people are even saying in this video? See... this is where folks get strange on me. They are planting seed in the mind of people that Paul and even Moses all suffered from epilepsy and therefore that is why they had their "religious experiences." I mean come on guys... buying into this sort of stuff is buying into what the devil would have all us believe.

I removed the link by the way because in all honesty... it was nothing short of anti-Christ propaganda.

VerticalReality
May 7th 2008, 01:44 PM
Do you realize what these people are even saying in this video? See... this is where folks get strange on me. They are planting seed in the mind of people that Paul and even Moses all suffered from epilepsy and therefore that is why they had their "religious experiences." I mean come on guys... buying into this sort of stuff is buying into what the devil would have all us believe.

I removed the link by the way because in all honesty... it was nothing short of anti-Christ propaganda.

Wow! I didn't see this video, but they were saying that just because someone has a vision they are epileptic and not of God?

cheech
May 7th 2008, 01:54 PM
That was basically the point of my comment. If you need something exciting to happen to "revive" you it means that you currently aren't very excited. I find it a troubling reality that folks come to church and sit there like a bump on a pickle like they have 50 other things better to do than be in that church for a couple of hours worshiping the Lord and hearing His Word. I know that with some folks this is going to be inevitable, but when an entire church is this way I think you have some serious issues going on. When you aren't excited to feed on God's Word and give Him praise, folks really to examine where their heart is. Many folks today say the right things, but in their heart they just seem to be miles away.

This is true...but then again, you have to look deeper as to why they are like this. Why do they not hear God's word while sitting there, feel it, and want to be there then take it out to others. I can testify that I use to be like this. I'd go to church every week because that was how I was brought up. Did I want to be there? Yes and no. I felt drawn to go and there were times I really wanted to be there, but then there were times I didn't and if my kid even so much had a sniffle, that was my excuse to stay home sometimes and my husband was worse. Why did we feel this way? Because we were still too much into the world. One hour was just too long for us at times but that was because we weren't really listening to what we were being told. Could be we weren't being fed the nourishment we really needed. The veil wasn't lifted yet. Many go because they feel it's their duty to go. The reasons are many.

God knocks on the doors of everyones hearts, but it takes some longer than others to open up. Some open up sooner and feel as you and I do...we want to be there and go out and share God's word. We want people to know Christ as we know Him! Some take a while to open that door, as it did with me, and it took something happening in my life that brought me crashing on the ground to open that door and allow Christ in. At that moment I did that, the veil was lifted and my ears perked up and I was hungry for the nourishment Christ could provide. Now I see what others felt who had come up to me in the past wanting to share the word of God with me. Now I want to share it with others.

We have to look past what we see on the outside and delve deeper to the inside of people for the answers as to why the fire or light in some people has dimmed and needs to be rekindled. That is where you work from.

ProjectPeter
May 7th 2008, 01:55 PM
Wow! I didn't see this video, but they were saying that just because someone has a vision they are epileptic and not of God?
Not that simple but in essence they say that this is the reason they likely had all the visions such as Paul on the road to Damascus. Frontal lobe epilepsy is "likely" what they suffered from and this "enhanced" their "religious experience" etc. etc. etc.

ProjectPeter
May 7th 2008, 01:57 PM
This is true...but then again, you have to look deeper as to why they are like this. Why do they not hear God's word while sitting there, feel it, and want to be there then take it out to others. I can testify that I use to be like this. I'd go to church every week because that was how I was brought up. Did I want to be there? Yes and no. I felt drawn to go and there were times I really wanted to be there, but then there were times I didn't and if my kid even so much had a sniffle, that was my excuse to stay home sometimes and my husband was worse. Why did we feel this way? Because we were still too much into the world. One hour was just too long for us at times but that was because we weren't really listening to what we were being told. Could be we weren't being fed the nourishment we really needed. The veil wasn't lifted yet. Many go because they feel it's their duty to go. The reasons are many.

God knocks on the doors of everyones hearts, but it takes some longer than others to open up. Some open up sooner and feel as you and I do...we want to be there and go out and share God's word. We want people to know Christ as we know Him! Some take a while to open that door, as it did with me, and it took something happening in my life that brought me crashing on the ground to open that door and allow Christ in. At that moment I did that, the veil was lifted and my ears perked up and I was hungry for the nourishment Christ could provide. Now I see what others felt who had come up to me in the past wanting to share the word of God with me. Now I want to share it with others.

We have to look past what we see on the outside and delve deeper to the inside of people for the answers as to why the fire or light in some people has dimmed and needs to be rekindled. That is where you work from.
Exactly Cheech! The "excuses" (if you will) would vary from person to person to person. I honestly don't think that we could just lay blame one particular thing to each individual person.

coolhandluke
May 7th 2008, 02:00 PM
Always look into things yourself and always take the time to test it with scripture. Never depend on others for the things you should do yourself.

When I said "thanks for looking into it for me," I shouldve said I didnt know where to start looking or who the guy preaching even was. The OP had links right to the videos of the REVIVAL in FL. So I was thinking cool no searching for it. Just point and click. I probably couldve used my googlefu to find the same thing. I watched as many videos as I could stand and thats all I needed to see. That and the Wife told me to put something else on. The website that was mentioned was something I looked at after I had made my own opinion. The website makes it abundantly clear. Thanks for the Advice though its always good to search things your self and not take other peoples word for it.

I got a question about Todd, does he preach the salvation message? I couldnt really find any video on that, just on the healing and being slain in the spirit stuff. By defenition a revival is a series of services held in order to inspire active members of a religious body and to gain new converts. Is he really getting the message out there? If he is, is it the right message?

If this is how I should be as a born again Christian then I am seriously lacking something.

ProjectPeter
May 7th 2008, 02:12 PM
When I said "thanks for looking into it for me," I shouldve said I didnt know where to start looking or who the guy preaching even was. The OP had links right to the videos of the REVIVAL in FL. So I was thinking cool no searching for it. Just point and click. I probably couldve used my googlefu to find the same thing. I watched as many videos as I could stand and thats all I needed to see. That and the Wife told me to put something else on. The website that was mentioned was something I looked at after I had made my own opinion. The website makes it abundantly clear. Thanks for the Advice though its always good to search things your self and not take other peoples word for it.

I got a question about Todd, does he preach the salvation message? I couldnt really find any video on that, just on the healing and being slain in the spirit stuff. By defenition a revival is a series of services held in order to inspire active members of a religious body and to gain new converts. Is he really getting the message out there? If he is, is it the right message?

If this is how I should be as a born again Christian then I am seriously lacking something.
Let me tell you this in all fairness. What you see in a clip that is six... nine... fifteen minutes long is just a wee sampling of the 3 or 4 hours this thing last each night. But to answer your question in the same fairness... not really. I have watched the full service on a number of occassions now and not really. The "gospel" message there is very weak.

Now saying that... if it is an "evangelistic" message then the "gospel" is not what needs be preached. Equipping the SAINTS... they should already be saved and thus the gospel message isn't necessary. But keep in mind what I posted about "Revivalist" and the desire to save a city.... that is different. If your aim is to equip the saints then equip them. If it is to save lost souls... the gospel is VITAL.

So in saying all of that... not sure what this would be classified as.

VisionOfYou
May 7th 2008, 04:26 PM
Let me tell you this in all fairness. What you see in a clip that is six... nine... fifteen minutes long is just a wee sampling of the 3 or 4 hours this thing last each night. But to answer your question in the same fairness... not really. I have watched the full service on a number of occassions now and not really. The "gospel" message there is very weak.

Now saying that... if it is an "evangelistic" message then the "gospel" is not what needs be preached. Equipping the SAINTS... they should already be saved and thus the gospel message isn't necessary. But keep in mind what I posted about "Revivalist" and the desire to save a city.... that is different. If your aim is to equip the saints then equip them. If it is to save lost souls... the gospel is VITAL.

So in saying all of that... not sure what this would be classified as.

ProjectPeter, you and cheech have offered some very wise counsel on this subject. I've only had the opportunity to watch a couple of services since hearing about it, but it does seem to me to be geared more towards equipping the saints - releasing an impartation for them to take back to their own communities, for their churches and for reaching the lost. I've heard several people, including Todd, say that what God is doing now isn't about one man or one movement, and if that's the case it would make sense that these meetings are more about spreading revival (of whatever the correct term is ;)) to as many regions and countries as possible.

I think we need to be careful about drawing conclusions from a few video clips since the point of a lot of those is to show a few minutes of something sensational rather than give an accurate overview of what is happening. When it comes to manifestations, sure, there are always going to be some who are in error, but this is (unfortunately) true of anything, including preaching and teaching, and just because some are out of order does not negate the real thing. As I said, I've only seen a couple of services, but no one in either of those was "convulsing like an epileptic". Yes, most of the people I've seen prayed for "fell out", but that was about the extent of it. For me, the more important question would be, is God being glorified? I've seen a lot of people telling about how hungry they were for more of God, praising Him for healing them...even saw a spirit of infirmity cast out of a man. In Matthew 12 Jesus says that a house divided against itself cannot stand, addressing the accusation that demons would be cast out and the sick healed by anything other than the power of God.

So, yeah...I'm done rambling now...just wanted to put a couple more thoughts out there. :)

timmyb
May 7th 2008, 05:30 PM
I believe that we need to know what revival is before we judge it..

for every move of God there are critics...

are these people being legitmately healed? Does Satan work against himself? If these people are being healed, it has to be a move of God.... there is no other explanation....

I would be careful, we tread on new ground here... we haven't seen a move of God this powerful since the Brownsville Revival... and that one has critics too...

Let's look at the fruit of this revival... there are times for Scripture, people are getting saved, people are being healed... We need to look at the good coming from this and don't judge the fruit by how many nuts are in it but look instead on the fruit and praise God that he's moving and separate the fruit from the nuts...

the last thing this revival needs is a critical spirit...

ProjectPeter
May 7th 2008, 06:36 PM
ProjectPeter, you and cheech have offered some very wise counsel on this subject. I've only had the opportunity to watch a couple of services since hearing about it, but it does seem to me to be geared more towards equipping the saints - releasing an impartation for them to take back to their own communities, for their churches and for reaching the lost. I've heard several people, including Todd, say that what God is doing now isn't about one man or one movement, and if that's the case it would make sense that these meetings are more about spreading revival (of whatever the correct term is ;)) to as many regions and countries as possible.

I think we need to be careful about drawing conclusions from a few video clips since the point of a lot of those is to show a few minutes of something sensational rather than give an accurate overview of what is happening. When it comes to manifestations, sure, there are always going to be some who are in error, but this is (unfortunately) true of anything, including preaching and teaching, and just because some are out of order does not negate the real thing. As I said, I've only seen a couple of services, but no one in either of those was "convulsing like an epileptic". Yes, most of the people I've seen prayed for "fell out", but that was about the extent of it. For me, the more important question would be, is God being glorified? I've seen a lot of people telling about how hungry they were for more of God, praising Him for healing them...even saw a spirit of infirmity cast out of a man. In Matthew 12 Jesus says that a house divided against itself cannot stand, addressing the accusation that demons would be cast out and the sick healed by anything other than the power of God.

So, yeah...I'm done rambling now...just wanted to put a couple more thoughts out there. :)
I don't want folks to misunderstand me here. I am not endorsing this Revival. Far from it actually. I am not going to be bold enough to call it of satan... but it is certainly flesh filled as anything one could observe.

Look... there is no teaching there. There is no Word there. There are angels and "manifestations" but none of that makes it of the Spirit of God. Would I love to see that sort of realness of the Spirit... YOU BET. Is this it? No... not in ones wildest hope. Will people get healed there? Some perhaps but not because of Todd and his visitations and all that stuff. It will be because their faith was strong enough.

Personally... I wouldn't waste the gas money or plane ticket to go there. There is no "edification" of the saints unless perhaps the saints need a pep rally much along the line of an old AMWAY meeting where folks gather and someone shows up to convince them to SELL SELL SELL!!! That will pump folks up for a week... maybe a month. But that too will fade. That being said... I also don't want folks to paint this picture with such a broadbrush that they make any thing "Revival" as something horrible either.

ProjectPeter
May 7th 2008, 06:39 PM
I believe that we need to know what revival is before we judge it..

for every move of God there are critics...

are these people being legitmately healed? Does Satan work against himself? If these people are being healed, it has to be a move of God.... there is no other explanation....

I would be careful, we tread on new ground here... we haven't seen a move of God this powerful since the Brownsville Revival... and that one has critics too...

Let's look at the fruit of this revival... there are times for Scripture, people are getting saved, people are being healed... We need to look at the good coming from this and don't judge the fruit by how many nuts are in it but look instead on the fruit and praise God that he's moving and separate the fruit from the nuts...

the last thing this revival needs is a critical spirit...While some bad stuff happened at Brownsville there at the end... let me state this and this is without a doubt true. There is a huge difference between Brownsville and this. One can say what they want for doctrinal reasons but at Brownsville... no one left without hearing Jesus Christ crucified, resurrected, living today and folks should repent and turn to God. That is a tad lacking in this particular Revival.

ProDeo
May 7th 2008, 06:47 PM
Not that simple but in essence they say that this is the reason they likely had all the visions such as Paul on the road to Damascus. Frontal lobe epilepsy is "likely" what they suffered from and this "enhanced" their "religious experience" etc. etc. etc.

Only saw part-1 (the URL I gave) and offered it as evidence for my statement epilepsy (sometimes) is linked to religious experiences. If the other parts (2-5) state what you say then I am truly sorry for posting this link and you did the right thing to remove the URL.

Ed

ProjectPeter
May 7th 2008, 06:57 PM
Only saw part-1 (the URL I gave) and offered it as evidence for my statement epilepsy (sometimes) is linked to religious experiences. If the other parts (2-5) state what you say then I am truly sorry for posting this link and you did the right thing to remove the URL.

Ed
Yeah... it went on to get goofy.

VisionOfYou
May 7th 2008, 07:47 PM
I don't want folks to misunderstand me here. I am not endorsing this Revival. Far from it actually. I am not going to be bold enough to call it of satan... but it is certainly flesh filled as anything one could observe.

Look... there is no teaching there. There is no Word there. There are angels and "manifestations" but none of that makes it of the Spirit of God. Would I love to see that sort of realness of the Spirit... YOU BET. Is this it? No... not in ones wildest hope. Will people get healed there? Some perhaps but not because of Todd and his visitations and all that stuff. It will be because their faith was strong enough.

Personally... I wouldn't waste the gas money or plane ticket to go there. There is no "edification" of the saints unless perhaps the saints need a pep rally much along the line of an old AMWAY meeting where folks gather and someone shows up to convince them to SELL SELL SELL!!! That will pump folks up for a week... maybe a month. But that too will fade. That being said... I also don't want folks to paint this picture with such a broadbrush that they make any thing "Revival" as something horrible either.

No worries, I didn't see anything you said as an endorsement. I haven't seen enough to feel comfortable making any judgments one way or the other myself - although I guess that in itself is saying something. I was just making some general observations on what I have seen of it in the interest of discussion. Sorry it came off that way. :)

timmyb
May 7th 2008, 08:17 PM
While some bad stuff happened at Brownsville there at the end... let me state this and this is without a doubt true. There is a huge difference between Brownsville and this. One can say what they want for doctrinal reasons but at Brownsville... no one left without hearing Jesus Christ crucified, resurrected, living today and folks should repent and turn to God. That is a tad lacking in this particular Revival.

this is a revival that is focused primarily on healing... which is a work of God... while people are getting saved, the kingdom is being shown in a mighty way... You judge a revival by it's FRUIT not by it's NUTS.... Although you may not agree with the method, the fruit is undeniable... God is showing up in a mighty way... people are getting ministered to by the Lord getting healed, and some are getting saved and turning their lives around... say what you want about this, but this is a move of God, what else could it be?

Even Todd said that these are none of himself. If you would watch it and hear him preach you would know that. I choose to let the fruit speak for itself.

I am endorsing this revival as a genuine demonstration of the Kingdom of God. I'll take the good with the bad. Like Sean Connery said to Lancelot in First Knight I can't love people in slices and you can't endorse movements of God in slices.

ProjectPeter
May 7th 2008, 08:28 PM
No worries, I didn't see anything you said as an endorsement. I haven't seen enough to feel comfortable making any judgments one way or the other myself - although I guess that in itself is saying something. I was just making some general observations on what I have seen of it in the interest of discussion. Sorry it came off that way. :)
Ha... you're cool. I just felt I better clarify! :)

ProjectPeter
May 7th 2008, 08:30 PM
this is a revival that is focused primarily on healing... which is a work of God... while people are getting saved, the kingdom is being shown in a mighty way... You judge a revival by it's FRUIT not by it's NUTS.... Although you may not agree with the method, the fruit is undeniable... God is showing up in a mighty way... people are getting ministered to by the Lord getting healed, and some are getting saved and turning their lives around... say what you want about this, but this is a move of God, what else could it be?

Even Todd said that these are none of himself. If you would watch it and hear him preach you would know that. I choose to let the fruit speak for itself.

I am endorsing this revival as a genuine demonstration of the Kingdom of God. I'll take the good with the bad. Like Sean Connery said to Lancelot in First Knight I can't love people in slices and you can't endorse movements of God in slices.
Not only have I watched it many times... I know Todd. So as I said... I am far from calling this something "demonic" and I hope others heed that as well. I just want folks to understand that there is much "flesh" in all of this as well. Rest assured... as time marches on... I will say plenty more. Right now... I am waiting to see if a few things happen that I pray do. If they do... wonderful. If not... that happens. :)\

As to the Sean Connery quote in a movie... if that has impacted your life then I am not sure anything that I say would make much a difference.

timmyb
May 7th 2008, 08:53 PM
Not only have I watched it many times... I know Todd. So as I said... I am far from calling this something "demonic" and I hope others heed that as well. I just want folks to understand that there is much "flesh" in all of this as well. Rest assured... as time marches on... I will say plenty more. Right now... I am waiting to see if a few things happen that I pray do. If they do... wonderful. If not... that happens. :)\

As to the Sean Connery quote in a movie... if that has impacted your life then I am not sure anything that I say would make much a difference.


as far as the revival goes... when the Glory of God is entrusted to humans, there is going to be those who aren't mature enough to deal with it... you are going to have genuine fruit and some nuts... as for Todd I cannot speak for him, I am to know him by his fruit... his method is debatable

as for the sean connery quote... i liked it... and I used it... besides what are you implying by me using that?

ProjectPeter
May 7th 2008, 10:43 PM
as far as the revival goes... when the Glory of God is entrusted to humans, there is going to be those who aren't mature enough to deal with it... you are going to have genuine fruit and some nuts... as for Todd I cannot speak for him, I am to know him by his fruit... his method is debatable

as for the sean connery quote... i liked it... and I used it... besides what are you implying by me using that?
I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in the quote was my basic point and simple implication.

As to Todd... I do know him and ultimately DiggenDeeper made a great point. Let Revival start in our own lives and watch what will happen to the world surrounding us and watch it spread out as it truly infects others in a positive way. Don't worry about Florida and whatnot... let what happens there happen there. If it is of God then God bless them. If not... time will tell.

timmyb
May 8th 2008, 12:46 AM
I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in the quote was my basic point and simple implication.

As to Todd... I do know him and ultimately DiggenDeeper made a great point. Let Revival start in our own lives and watch what will happen to the world surrounding us and watch it spread out as it truly infects others in a positive way. Don't worry about Florida and whatnot... let what happens there happen there. If it is of God then God bless them. If not... time will tell.

that's what I'm trying to say... so far I like what I'm seeing.. I have had friends go there and have their lives impacted in such a remarkable way... I am very encouraged by this revival myself..

i don't put alot of stock in the quote, but it kinda applied to this situation

My heart's Desire
May 8th 2008, 01:02 AM
went to the blog, read Doctrinal statement. I would use caution personally. I didn't watch the video, I went to see what they believe.

coolhandluke
May 8th 2008, 10:51 AM
Does Satan work against himself? If these people are being healed, it has to be a move of God.... there is no other explanation....


Acts 16:
16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.


What if anyone were to be led to Christ because of what she had said?
Is this an example of Satan working against himself? Isn't Satan always trying to take some of the glory, even if its a little bit he is taking glory from God.

markedward
May 8th 2008, 03:14 PM
The demons in the gospels couldn't help but cry out "You are the Son of the Most High God" when they saw Jesus - is that them working against Satan by declaring who Jesus was?

markedward
May 8th 2008, 03:22 PM
Let's look at the fruit of this revival... there are times for Scripture, people are getting saved, people are being healed... We need to look at the good coming from this and don't judge the fruit by how many nuts are in it but look instead on the fruit and praise God that he's moving and separate the fruit from the nuts...If we look at certain You-Can-Better-Yourself ministers, they certainly use Scripture, pray to God, people are "being saved," but oftentimes their use of Scripture is distorting what is in the text or even outright lying what a particular passage actually says, their prayers are for the people to be able to get that sweet new car they always wanted, and the people come to "salvation" not with faith in Christ to save them from their sins but faith in Christ to make them materialistically prosperous.

At first glance from the outside world, and even from "newborn" Christians, such ministers are bearing wonderful fruit for Jesus, but in reality they teach a twisted and selfish doctrine. The way we know this is by comparing what they teach and what they do to the Bible, using discernment for the Truth.

In my (third) post earlier in the thread, I compared one particular "anointing" that was recorded from the Revival to anointings and healings in the Bible. It doesn't match up. It doesn't compare. In every aspect of the "anointing" I saw that had taken place at this Revival, it contradicted what Scripture describes. The Revival may appear "fruitful" to people from the outside, or even to the misled who are "saved," but in direct comparison to the authority, the Bible, I see counterfeit.

ProjectPeter
May 8th 2008, 07:19 PM
The demons in the gospels couldn't help but cry out "You are the Son of the Most High God" when they saw Jesus - is that them working against Satan by declaring who Jesus was?
No... it is just that Christ cannot be denied ultimately... even by demons. They feared Him.

Friend of Jesus
May 8th 2008, 08:27 PM
I really don't see how this revival could be considered anything but God's work. My Pastor and his family visited that church for a few days (travelling from England) and have come back full of the Holy Spirit. No one else fills people with the Holy Spirit except God, because the Holy Spirit is God.

God heals people, God brings back the dead and God fills people with the Spirit. No one else can do these things without the Spirit of God.

Our first thought should not be to question the works of God, but to praise and thank him for it. People have been praying for revival for years, now that God has given it to us- his works are being considered as those of the Devil.

No- This is God's work, and this Church is filled with God's people.

amazzin
May 8th 2008, 11:12 PM
I really don't see how this revival could be considered anything but God's work. My Pastor and his family visited that church for a few days (travelling from England) and have come back full of the Holy Spirit. No one else fills people with the Holy Spirit except God, because the Holy Spirit is God.

God heals people, God brings back the dead and God fills people with the Spirit. No one else can do these things without the Spirit of God.

Our first thought should not be to question the works of God, but to praise and thank him for it. People have been praying for revival for years, now that God has given it to us- his works are being considered as those of the Devil.

No- This is God's work, and this Church is filled with God's people.

What you describe is not the definition of a revival. Tell me, how do you define revival?

valleybldr
May 9th 2008, 12:24 AM
I really don't see how this revival could be considered anything but God's work. My Pastor and his family visited that church for a few days (travelling from England) and have come back full of the Holy Spirit. No one else fills people with the Holy Spirit except God, because the Holy Spirit is God. How as your congregation increased in holiness throught this experience? Are any of the healings documented on video? The Apostles did works that were undeniable because people could see the results. todd

Friend of Jesus
May 9th 2008, 07:03 AM
Sorry, I you suggesting that the healings happening in Florida are faked?

As to the question about revival: a revival is what God wants it to be. We have had revivals of the Word many times- This time it is a revival of the Spirit.

Our church especially was very dry in the Spirit. I have been seeking more of God's Spirit, for many months- Now that it has come, I am not going to question God's works.

We have a meeting tonight in our church where the Pastor's family will make their testimonies about what they saw, and we will have our own healings and floodings of Spirit. I will post back later to say what happened.

God Bless

valleybldr
May 9th 2008, 10:25 AM
Sorry, I you suggesting that the healings happening in Florida are faked?

As to the question about revival: a revival is what God wants it to be. We have had revivals of the Word many times- This time it is a revival of the Spirit.

Our church especially was very dry in the Spirit. I have been seeking more of God's Spirit, for many months- Now that it has come, I am not going to question God's works.

We have a meeting tonight in our church where the Pastor's family will make their testimonies about what they saw, and we will have our own healings and floodings of Spirit. I will post back later to say what happened.

God Bless "Healings" take place without divine intervention as with. A "flooding of the Spirit" will have people returning the faith and practice (and no, quivering on the floor in another state was not a new testament practice) known to the early church. The gifts are listed and if the lives of those involved see more "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control..." there will be your proof.

todd

RoadWarrior
May 9th 2008, 06:05 PM
When I started to hear about what is happening in Florida, I remembered that I have a book on my shelf called "Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire" by Jim Cymbala. I highly recommend this book to any of you who are investigating or being attracted to the concept of fresh fire in the church today.

Jim Cymbala writes of his own experience, of being called to pastor a church of 25 people in a derelict section of Brooklyn. What happened in that church is a beautiful picture of what a true move of God looks like, and what the results can be when God is glorified. Today, that little church is known a Brooklyn Tabernacle, and has thousands of members. These are not Christians who were church-hoppers, but they are people whose lives were changed by an encounter with the true God.

We need revival in our hearts and minds today, and in our churches. May the LORD bring a true revival to us!

Friend of Jesus
May 9th 2008, 06:16 PM
"Healings" take place without divine intervention as with. A "flooding of the Spirit" will have people returning the faith and practice (and no, quivering on the floor in another state was not a new testament practice) known to the early church. The gifts are listed and if the lives of those involved see more "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control..." there will be your proof.

todd


These probably are happening in the church, they just might not be televised. Once this revival goes on for a little while longer, no doubt it will be public knowledge. I don't think you can judge this entire revival on one perculiar act.

Jesus said this in Mark 9.38 :

"No one can use my name to do something good and powerful, and in the next breath cut me down. If he's not an enemy, he's an ally. Why, anyone by just giving you a cup of water in my name is on our side."

amazzin
May 9th 2008, 06:17 PM
Sorry, I you suggesting that the healings happening in Florida are faked?

As to the question about revival: a revival is what God wants it to be. We have had revivals of the Word many times- This time it is a revival of the Spirit.

Our church especially was very dry in the Spirit. I have been seeking more of God's Spirit, for many months- Now that it has come, I am not going to question God's works.

We have a meeting tonight in our church where the Pastor's family will make their testimonies about what they saw, and we will have our own healings and floodings of Spirit. I will post back later to say what happened.

God Bless

No, I am not suggesting that.

The primary fruit of a revival is souls coming to Christ in unheard numbers in places unimaginable.

All the past revivals (book of Acts included) has this one primary result. The mesage of Salvation through Christ alone is the focus. This is God's heart for mankind. This in my humble opinion is a non-negociable.

As for miracles and sign and wonders, these follow the conversions.
Revival is all about reviving that which is dead. Revival means reviving those whose hearts are hardened and non-responsive to the gospel and then suddenly breakthrough and acceptance of the Word of God.

timmyb
May 9th 2008, 06:47 PM
What you describe is not the definition of a revival. Tell me, how do you define revival?

I define revival by this one word... Restoration... it is a time of restoring to the church the power that it has lost...

can you give me a definition of Revival? I don't think these people who criticize these kind of things really know what they want... Forgive me if I seem offensive... it's just what I'm seeing

but this isn't the full extent of it... Healings and Miracles are a part of the demonstration of the kingdom but it's only a link the whole chain of things... Revival produces salvations, love for Jesus, wholehearted obedience to him, and is demonstrated by the giftings and healings and miracles

ravi4u2
May 9th 2008, 11:26 PM
I define revival by this one word... Restoration... it is a time of restoring to the church the power that it has lost...

can you give me a definition of Revival? I don't think these people who criticize these kind of things really know what they want... Forgive me if I seem offensive... it's just what I'm seeing

but this isn't the full extent of it... Healings and Miracles are a part of the demonstration of the kingdom but it's only a link the whole chain of things... Revival produces salvations, love for Jesus, wholehearted obedience to him, and is demonstrated by the giftings and healings and miraclesBut, has the Church ever lost her power? To even suggest such a thing is ludicrous, as the Church is the Body of Christ, to whom is given all power in Heaven and on Earth.

RoadWarrior
May 10th 2008, 12:45 AM
I'd like to share a little more from Jim Cymbala's book, Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire.

Early on, he was crying out to God that he didn't want to just mark time. There was a point at which he was weeping before the Lord and heard this in his spirit:

"If you and your wife will lead my people to pray and call upon my name, you will never lack for something fresh to preach. I will supply all the money that is needed both for the church and for your family, and you will never have a building large enough to contain the crowds I will send in response."

At this point, Pastor Cymbala made the Tuesday night prayer meeting the most most important meeting that the church had. He told his congregation, "From this day on, the prayer meeting will be the barometer of our church. What happens on Tuesday night will be the gauge by which we will judge success or failure because that will be the measure by which God blesses us.

If we call upon the Lord, he has promised in his Word to answer, to bring the unsaved to Himself, to pour out his spirit among us. If we don't call upon the Lord, he has promised nothing. Nothing at all. It's as simple as that. No matter what I preach or what we claim to believe in our heads, the future will depend upon our times of prayer."

ProjectPeter
May 10th 2008, 12:50 AM
I'd like to share a little more from Jim Cymbala's book, Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire.

Early on, he was crying out to God that he didn't want to just mark time. There was a point at which he was weeping before the Lord and heard this in his spirit:

"If you and your wife will lead my people to pray and call upon my name, you will never lack for something fresh to preach. I will supply all the money that is needed both for the church and for your family, and you will never have a building large enough to contain the crowds I will send in response."

At this point, Pastor Cymbala made the Tuesday night prayer meeting the most most important meeting that the church had. He told his congregation, "From this day on, the prayer meeting will be the barometer of our church. What happens on Tuesday night will be the gauge by which we will judge success or failure because that will be the measure by which God blesses us.

If we call upon the Lord, he has promised in his Word to answer, to bring the unsaved to Himself, to pour out his spirit among us. If we don't call upon the Lord, he has promised nothing. Nothing at all. It's as simple as that. No matter what I preach or what we claim to believe in our heads, the future will depend upon our times of prayer."
I spoke at his church at the Brooklyn Tabernacle... wow... long time ago... mid to late 90's. He and Carol are some good people. Sweethearts in many ways.

ProjectPeter
May 10th 2008, 12:52 AM
But, has the Church ever lost her power? To even suggest such a thing is ludicrous, as the Church is the Body of Christ, to whom is given all power in Heaven and on Earth.
You know... this is where we sort of get caught up in religious speak. Sure the "church" has lost it's power. That isn't a new concept at all and even one can simply read John's letter to the 7 churches and see where this isn't a strange concept. Tell me when the last time you saw a liar to the Spirit of God (and oh yeah... there are many) struck dead and drug out and buried. Been a while I'm sort of thinking. ;)

ravi4u2
May 10th 2008, 03:18 AM
You know... this is where we sort of get caught up in religious speak. Sure the "church" has lost it's power. That isn't a new concept at all and even one can simply read John's letter to the 7 churches and see where this isn't a strange concept. Tell me when the last time you saw a liar to the Spirit of God (and oh yeah... there are many) struck dead and drug out and buried. Been a while I'm sort of thinking. ;)No religious speak at all...Your definition of church may be different from mine...Perhaps that is why you put it in inverted commas. John addresses the letters to the church in the city...But there is a Bride who calls with the Spirit, COME! My take...Even during the dark ages...the Church had been vibrant...

Diggindeeper
May 10th 2008, 03:38 AM
I am reminded of this song. It says it all, I truly believe!


Narrative from The Church Triumphant
Recorded by The Bill Gaither Trio


God Has Always Had A People!

Many a foolish conquer made the mistake of thinking that because he had forced the
Church of Jesus Christ out of sight, that he had stilled its voice and snuffed out its life.

But God Has Always Had A People!

The powerful current of a rushing river is not diminished because it is forced to flow
underground. The purest water is the stream that bursts crystal clear into the sunlight
after it has fought its way through solid rock.

There have been charlatans who like Simon the magician, sought to barter on the open
market that power which cannot be bought or sold.

But God Has Always Had A People!

Men who could not be bought and women who were beyond purchase.

Yes, God Has Always Had A People!

There have been times of affluence and prosperity when the Church's message was
nearly diluted into oblivion by those who sought to make it socially attractive, neatly
organized and financially profitable. It has been gold plated ,draped in purple and
encrusted with jewels. It has been misrepresented, ridiculed, blotted and scorned.

These followers of Jesus Christ have been according to the whim of the times
elevated as sacred leaders and martyred as heretics. Yet through it all, there
marches on that powerful army of the meek, God's chosen people that can't be
bought, flattered, murdered or stilled.
On through the ages they march.

The Church, God's Church Triumphant, is Alive and Well!


Now listen child of God. It's alive! (It's alive!)

Discouraged pastor it's His Church and it's alive! (It's alive!)

Lonely Missionary sow your seeds with confidence! (It's alive!)

It's alive my broken hearted friend! (It's alive!)

Old saint you’re not alone and forgotten, the Church is alive! (It's alive!)

Busy mother cast your cares on Jesus! (It's alive!)

It's alive young student. You're not alone in serving the Lord! (It's alive!)

Faithful father there's rest in the Lord! The Church is alive! (It's alive!)

Cynical skeptic you haven't killed God with your noisy unbelief. (It's alive!)

He's Alive!

So family of God raise you hands and praise the Lord.

For the Church, God's Church Triumphant is Alive and Well!

timmyb
May 10th 2008, 05:43 PM
But, has the Church ever lost her power? To even suggest such a thing is ludicrous, as the Church is the Body of Christ, to whom is given all power in Heaven and on Earth.


I don't know...are signs and wonders just 'normal' to you... if it is then why all the ruckus about a mass healing?... we should be doing this in the streets

the reality of it is... the book of Acts church is the Normal Church... Like Peter said... we haven't seen people who use the glory of God for their own good struck dead... we aren't seeing apostles and prophets walk the streets proclaiming the word of the Lord and the church being added to daily... It was said of by Paul that there were going to be men that were going to have a form of godliness but DENY IT'S POWER... meaning they will say all the right things and do the services and go through the motions but deny the power of the Spirit...

Believe me, I do believe the church has lost it's power because we have denied it.

Friend of Jesus
May 10th 2008, 08:45 PM
My Pastor has arrived back from Florida- And the revival in England is beginning!

There is no lack of God or Spirit in these meetings for that you can be sure. The main thing that is being revived in Florida is the works of the Spirit and Worship. And the same thing started last night in our church. Many people were healed, slain in the Spirit and opened their hearts to God.

Our Pastor did speak about some people not believing it is God's work. But he has been there himself and has been able to judge first hand. There is no need for anymore discussion on the matter- IT IS GOD'S WORK.

It is fair enough to question some things at first- but since this is so obviously God's work. I think people had better be careful before bad mouthing what God is doing. I would recommend anyone to read the whole of John chapter 9.

Jesus could do whatever he wanted to heal people. There was a blind man in John chapter 9, and Jesus healed him. He could have simply laid his hands on him and said 'Be healed' -But he didn't. No, Jesus spat on the ground and made little mud pies which he then put on the man's eyes. No clear divine method- Mud pies!

My Pastor once asked Jesus why he healed the man by making mud pies. Jesus replied "So you would wonder". In otherwords- Jesus purposefully healed that man in a perculiar way to show that there is no method to healing people- As long as they are healed!

Later in the same chapter, this man gets questioned several times by others. They asked him many odd questions to 'prove' that this man wasn't healed. They said "this man never was blind" or "it isn't the same man" - They even got his parents to come and tell them whether the man used to be blind or not.

The only thing the ex-blind man knew was: "I was blind, and now I see". If people keep questioning this work of God, they will be like these questioning Pharisees- with the evidence right in front of their eyes, but refusing to believe.

God is working in Florida, and now the revival has come to England.

If this isn't a Revival- I think it will do till one comes!

My Pastor also said this to all those who refuse to believe that God is working in Florida, sending his fire down upon a nation:

"Does your God still heal people?
Does your God still do miracles?
If not I'll stick with mine,
I like mine!"


God Bless Everyone!

Diggindeeper
May 10th 2008, 08:50 PM
I don't know...are signs and wonders just 'normal' to you... if it is then why all the ruckus about a mass healing?... we should be doing this in the streets

the reality of it is... the book of Acts church is the Normal Church... Like Peter said... we haven't seen people who use the glory of God for their own good struck dead... we aren't seeing apostles and prophets walk the streets proclaiming the word of the Lord and the church being added to daily... It was said of by Paul that there were going to be men that were going to have a form of godliness but DENY IT'S POWER... meaning they will say all the right things and do the services and go through the motions but deny the power of the Spirit...

Believe me, I do believe the church has lost it's power because we have denied it.

No, I don't see "apostles and prophets (or anyone else, for that matter!) walk the streets proclaiming the word of the Lord"

Nor do I see "the church being added to daily..."; not even anywhere in Florida! Just two more reasons this possibly may not be the so-called real thing. "Feeling" is not a sign of revival, but going about proclaiming the Word of God is always the result of revival, and THE thing that brings sinners to repentance and puts broken homes and marriages back together, and heals broken hearts, and therefore, the churches increase when these things happen.

Friend of Jesus
May 10th 2008, 09:01 PM
Diggindeeper- Do you have any idea how many hundreds (possibly thousands) of people have become part of God's church because of the revival (and it is a revival!) happening in Florida.

The answer is: LOTS!

timmyb
May 10th 2008, 09:11 PM
No, I don't see "apostles and prophets (or anyone else, for that matter!) walk the streets proclaiming the word of the Lord"

Nor do I see "the church being added to daily..."; not even anywhere in Florida! Just two more reasons this possibly may not be the so-called real thing. "Feeling" is not a sign of revival, but going about proclaiming the Word of God is always the result of revival, and THE thing that brings sinners to repentance and puts broken homes and marriages back together, and heals broken hearts, and therefore, the churches increase when these things happen.

if you take the time to notice, there are people getting saved in Florida... you want to know if the revival in Florida is just a feeling then take a look at the line of crutches and walkers and wheelchairs they have collected... There is legitimate healing in Florida... I wish people would see the good of this instead of looking for things to criticize about it... I find that when man gets their hands on a Revival that it dies quickly.... Just let God work and rejoice

if you don't believe me then go down yourself and criticize it from the inside... you never approve the house from the outside looking in, so why are you using this same principle for the Lakeland Revival?

RoadWarrior
May 10th 2008, 09:18 PM
Friend of Jesus, please forgive us for being skeptical. I would ask you to observe carefully what happens in your own church, and to give us a true report. What I would hope that you would look for:

1. True healings of real diseases that can be documented, as plainly as the man who was lame from birth, that was healed when Peter and John were on their way to prayer. Everyone knew this man, knew he had been lame all his life, and now they saw with their own eyes that he was walking and leaping and praising God. Please watch for something that powerful and let us know.

2. True salvation experiences. Watch for people who were not Christians, who did not attend church, to come to Jesus. This also can be observed as true when you see dramatically changed lives. (Don't count the ones who just moved from one church to another church.)

3. The members of the church coming out in large numbers to the prayer services, and praying in faith and power for God's kingdom to be increased and God's will to be done.

4. Changed lives. People who were lukewarm Christians but were living worldly lives, who give up their drugs and alcohol and immoral behaviors, who return (or begin) to living Godly lives.

If you see more things than I have thought of, that have this kind of power, please let us know.

We can see the emotional responses of people, by watching it on the tv or the pc. What we cannot see are the changed lives.

Thanks!

Diggindeeper
May 10th 2008, 09:42 PM
Diggindeeper- Do you have any idea how many hundreds (possibly thousands) of people have become part of God's church because of the revival (and it is a revival!) happening in Florida.

The answer is: LOTS!

Friend, at my age, (and I'm telling you the truth...I have been an avid student of the Word for over 56 years!) and after all that I've seen in my time, let me tell you....only time will tell! I have seen it happen so many times. People get all caught up in fads going around, and they're all gung-ho! For a time. Then, well, this is what happens:

Matthew 13:18-23
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, (Pray they first of all UNDERSTAND the Word! If they DON'T stay to gain understanding, then look what happens next...)then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; (Note that they receive it WITH MUCH JOY! But joy alone cannot sustain! There is so much more, like PERSEVERENCE, and OBEDIENCE, etc.))

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, (I have only heard about all the "MIRACLES" in Florida. People are not being ROOTED, in the WORD. How much WORD is being taught there? Not much at all , from what I've heard! So many who went there are all excited, but ONLY about the miracles.) but dureth for a while: (Yes, they will be there for a little while. To see MORE miracles and signs and wonders..but, read on...) for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

(This is why I say time alone will tell....)

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

(In other words, if what they receive is NOT something that is to their benefit--like riches, or cares of this world, or even healing of everything from now on--then, the Word is choked out, and they cannot and will not endure.)

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; (I offer it is the WORD they must hear, and they must UNDERSTAND. Only in this way, can they grow to spiritual maturity, and bring forth FRUIT!) which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

I have seen these things before. I am not saying and will never say that God went out of the healing business. I myself have received direct, instant healing at least 3 times! But I have had other times when I had to endure in spite of the fact that God did not heal me each and every time! So, I choose to wait it out and SEE the long-term results of this latest alledged revival.

Remember I told you, time WILL tell.....

ravi4u2
May 11th 2008, 12:06 AM
I don't know...are signs and wonders just 'normal' to you... if it is then why all the ruckus about a mass healing?... we should be doing this in the streets

the reality of it is... the book of Acts church is the Normal Church... Like Peter said... we haven't seen people who use the glory of God for their own good struck dead... we aren't seeing apostles and prophets walk the streets proclaiming the word of the Lord and the church being added to daily... It was said of by Paul that there were going to be men that were going to have a form of godliness but DENY IT'S POWER... meaning they will say all the right things and do the services and go through the motions but deny the power of the Spirit...

Believe me, I do believe the church has lost it's power because we have denied it.We are called to transcend the natural and walk in the supernatural. After all, to be naturally minded is death. There are many miracles happening in many parts of the world. The genuine do not usually have God TV publicising them. Those that are publicised are very often (not all the time) just hype. Believe me, the Ecclesia has never lost her power!

cheech
May 11th 2008, 02:34 AM
When we are ill and go to a doctor, the doctor talks to us about our illness and then talks to us about how to receive healing. He provides information on how to maintain the healing so our illness does not come back. He doesn't just heal us without any info whatsoever.

I have watched many of the videos of the revival and true, we probably don't get see everything in its entirety so we do have to be careful of what we say. To receive healing is a wonderful thing and glory will always be to God because he is the Master Healer. His Son, Jesus Christ is the one who breaks the chains of bondage that the enemy ties so tightly around our wrists. But as I watched the videos, I was reminded of the following verse:

Matthew 12:43-45
43"When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."

My main concern with what I watched of the revival is that I did not hear scripture regarding our "illnesses". I'm not just talking about physical illnesses but spiritual illnesses as Christ says in Mark 2:17:

On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

I also did not hear scripture on how to maintain any healing they may have received. If one does not know how to maintain that healing spiritually through the word of God, then the verse in Matthew 12 will happen. We have to remember that when Christ and all of His disciples went out and did these healings, they also preached the word of God telling the people what they needed to know. They did not heal without telling people what they must do...and that is turn from their sinful ways and be saved. They preached the word of God. To be healed is wonderful, no one discounts this, but people must be told how to maintain that healing.

As I said, we didn't see everything that went on so I can only pray that for those who did not know Christ but became saved during this time, were ministered to by all the Christians and Pastors that were there (those who were a part of the revival and those Pastors in the audience).

Friend of Jesus
May 11th 2008, 08:47 AM
Friend of Jesus, please forgive us for being skeptical. I would ask you to observe carefully what happens in your own church, and to give us a true report. What I would hope that you would look for:

1. True healings of real diseases that can be documented, as plainly as the man who was lame from birth, that was healed when Peter and John were on their way to prayer. Everyone knew this man, knew he had been lame all his life, and now they saw with their own eyes that he was walking and leaping and praising God. Please watch for something that powerful and let us know.

2. True salvation experiences. Watch for people who were not Christians, who did not attend church, to come to Jesus. This also can be observed as true when you see dramatically changed lives. (Don't count the ones who just moved from one church to another church.)

3. The members of the church coming out in large numbers to the prayer services, and praying in faith and power for God's kingdom to be increased and God's will to be done.

4. Changed lives. People who were lukewarm Christians but were living worldly lives, who give up their drugs and alcohol and immoral behaviors, who return (or begin) to living Godly lives.

If you see more things than I have thought of, that have this kind of power, please let us know.

We can see the emotional responses of people, by watching it on the tv or the pc. What we cannot see are the changed lives.

Thanks!



My answer is a big YES! to 1, 3 and 4.

The healings flooding out: For example my Pastor's daughter (18 years old) had a major back problem. She was descibed by the doctors as having "the back of a much older person". She was in a lot of pain for a while for a long time- BUT NOW SHE IS COMPLETELY HEALED!

The first night of the beginning of our revival began 2 nights ago, and far more people turned up than was expected at 1 day's notice.

People everywhere were being slain in the Spirit, speaking in tongues, lifting their hands in loving praise- The whole building was just ALIVE with God.

I can only guess on other people's part for your last question- But fo rme the answer is yes. I have given up an addiction that plagued my relationship with God.

For your second question: Only time will tell- We've only had 2 days! But I am certain that once our church starts moving fully in the Spirit- Our church will grow quickly.

And just before anyone starts moaning at me saying "you are not teaching the word"- I will tell everyone that there is PLENTY of the word in our meetings!

God is about to do something amazing in England

RoadWarrior
May 11th 2008, 02:22 PM
God has done amazing things in England before. The great revival of the turn of the century came out of Wales, I believe. George Mueller and Rees Howellls are two of my favorites.

Thank you for sharing. I shall be waiting to hear what happens next. :hug:

timmyb
May 11th 2008, 10:46 PM
We are called to transcend the natural and walk in the supernatural. After all, to be naturally minded is death. There are many miracles happening in many parts of the world. The genuine do not usually have God TV publicising them. Those that are publicised are very often (not all the time) just hype. Believe me, the Ecclesia has never lost her power!

then where are the signs, the wonders, the miracles... you claim to have the power of the kingdom... then demonstrate it and let signs and wonders be done through your hands in the name of Jesus... or are you going to deny that?

timmyb
May 11th 2008, 10:51 PM
When we are ill and go to a doctor, the doctor talks to us about our illness and then talks to us about how to receive healing. He provides information on how to maintain the healing so our illness does not come back. He doesn't just heal us without any info whatsoever.

I have watched many of the videos of the revival and true, we probably don't get see everything in its entirety so we do have to be careful of what we say. To receive healing is a wonderful thing and glory will always be to God because he is the Master Healer. His Son, Jesus Christ is the one who breaks the chains of bondage that the enemy ties so tightly around our wrists. But as I watched the videos, I was reminded of the following verse:

Matthew 12:43-45
43"When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."

My main concern with what I watched of the revival is that I did not hear scripture regarding our "illnesses". I'm not just talking about physical illnesses but spiritual illnesses as Christ says in Mark 2:17:

On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

I also did not hear scripture on how to maintain any healing they may have received. If one does not know how to maintain that healing spiritually through the word of God, then the verse in Matthew 12 will happen. We have to remember that when Christ and all of His disciples went out and did these healings, they also preached the word of God telling the people what they needed to know. They did not heal without telling people what they must do...and that is turn from their sinful ways and be saved. They preached the word of God. To be healed is wonderful, no one discounts this, but people must be told how to maintain that healing.

As I said, we didn't see everything that went on so I can only pray that for those who did not know Christ but became saved during this time, were ministered to by all the Christians and Pastors that were there (those who were a part of the revival and those Pastors in the audience).

there are holes in every revival... that is true... we are man and imperfect and we are called into a partnership with God on the earth.... even sincere believers have made mistakes in the glory... it's a test of man... yes there needs to be a time of ministering on how to maintain the revival... because if we let it die then things will indeed get worse afterwards....

I really see nowhere on how to maintain healing in the Bible... other than 'Go and sin no more'... but if you can show me where that is in the Bible I would like to see it

Brother Mark
May 11th 2008, 10:53 PM
then where are the signs, the wonders, the miracles... you claim to have the power of the kingdom... then demonstrate it and let signs and wonders be done through your hands in the name of Jesus... or are you going to deny that?

Even the apostles couldn't, at their bidding, demand God do a thing. It was just like Christ, only at the word of the Father could a thing be done. I have seen power in his church today and seen miracles worked that would amaze many. Last year, a lady with less than 1 month to live was healed of cancer in our church. We have witnessed many more miracles in our little congregation. One couple, barren for 7 years, received a word from the pastor to "lay it down". After giving their desire to Christ for a week, they became pregnant. I know of even greater miracles than these, but these will suffice.

timmyb
May 11th 2008, 11:04 PM
Even the apostles couldn't, at their bidding, demand God do a thing. It was just like Christ, only at the word of the Father could a thing be done. I have seen power in his church today and seen miracles worked that would amaze many. Last year, a lady with less than 1 month to live was healed of cancer in our church. We have witnessed many more miracles in our little congregation. One couple, barren for 7 years, received a word from the pastor to "lay it down". After giving their desire to Christ for a week, they became pregnant. I know of even greater miracles than these, but these will suffice.

but here's what i'm trying to say... you are absolutely right that we cannot demand God to do a thing... but, miracles and signs and wonders were the norm in the Book of Acts...heck that WAS their outreach ministry....that's how many were added to the church daily because of the demonstration of the kingdom of God through word and power..... 1 Thessalonians says that the kingdom is not in word only but in power... The healings are great, but they're too sporadic compared to the standards of the early church.... granted we are seeing them here and there... but in Lakeland it's happening massively... this isn't just one or two people, this is hundreds of confirmed documented healings breaking out here... the early fathers were used to this in whole cities

Friend of Jesus
May 12th 2008, 06:59 AM
Just you wait- God's Spirit is going to spread like wildfire- healings, miracles, ressurections and masses of people coming to God are going to be happening everywhere before too long.

These kind of things are already happening in other (poorer) countries. Now they will start happening HERE!

Well I'm excited!

Roelof
May 12th 2008, 02:07 PM
Just you wait- God's Spirit is going to spread like wildfire- healings, miracles, ressurections and masses of people coming to God are going to be happening everywhere before too long.

These kind of things are already happening in other (poorer) countries. Now they will start happening HERE!

Well I'm excited!

Friend of Jesus

Please give more info or sources.

Friend of Jesus
May 12th 2008, 02:31 PM
Friend of Jesus

Please give more info or sources.

What kind of source do you want? If you look on the previous page you can see my reasons/info.

I'm afraid we do not film our prayer meetings, so I can't give you a Lakeland style Youtube video ;)

Roelof
May 12th 2008, 07:17 PM
Just you wait- God's Spirit is going to spread like wildfire- healings, miracles, ressurections and masses of people coming to God are going to be happening everywhere before too long.

These kind of things are already happening in other (poorer) countries. Now they will start happening HERE!

Well I'm excited!

Friend of Jesus

We experience a lot of miracles under black Christians in South Africa. It has a very big impact on them and convert many to Christ.

My heart's Desire
May 13th 2008, 05:09 AM
Ok reports of these services are popping up on other message boards and I'm just telling you what I'm seeing. Things about these services are popping up on "Apostacy warning" websites. I'm just telling what I'm reading. Don't shoot the messenger!

Friend of Jesus
May 13th 2008, 09:53 AM
Sorry 'My heart's Desire', maybe I'm being ignorant here but what is wrong with that? Surely it is a good thing?

Roelof, it's great to here that miracles are happenning in South Africa, and that many are coming to Christ because of that- With any faith, the same sort of things should start happening consistantly in England.

My heart's Desire
May 13th 2008, 04:07 PM
Sorry 'My heart's Desire', maybe I'm being ignorant here but what is wrong with that? Surely it is a good thing?

Well, depends on how you look at it. They are sending out warnings about the revival services in Lakeland.
To be honest, the reason I rarely comment on things such as this is because of the passages in Matt. 12:24-30. The Lord Jesus was here in person and they were accusing Him of the source of His Power for healings being from somewhere else and it was blasphemy.
Now, I don't know if makes the same accusations about another's work to turn out to be the same. Regardless, it makes me uneasy and I believe it takes a person of great discernment to judge between these things. Anyone can do a search for the Revival and also Apostasy and find these sites. I just read, take note and then go on.
FWIW

Friend of Jesus
May 13th 2008, 04:21 PM
Okay now I am being ignorant- why are they sending "warnings", I thought you meant they were having prayer meetings like the ones my church is having.

My heart's Desire
May 13th 2008, 04:33 PM
Okay now I am being ignorant- why are they sending "warnings", I thought you meant they were having prayer meetings like the ones my church is having.
Sorry, I wasn't finished with my post. Anyway, just do a search for the Revival in Lakeland or Todd's name or Apostasy and read for yourself. Like I said, I read, take note and go on. I have a Baptist background but have also been in the "Word of Faith" circles so I still have some of my own questions regarding similiar things.

Friend of Jesus
May 13th 2008, 04:56 PM
Oh my goodness, I've just been looking at "false prophet" news etc- And yes it is awful that this is happenning.

Sorry about that- I didn't know what Apostacy meant (hits self)

I've noticed that just about every single one of these declarations is lamely trying to pick tiny things wrong with the individuals involved (such as Todd) and then using these mistakes to justify why The Lakeland revival is clearly the work of Satan.

Please don't listen to them- I could go into great detail about it all but my Pastor does it better. Here is a link to his blog about the Lakeland revival, I would highly suggest reading it:

http://anthonydelaney.wordpress.com/2008/05/09/the-wrong-question/

My heart's Desire
May 13th 2008, 05:05 PM
Oh my goodness, I've just been looking at "false prophet" news etc- And yes it is awful that this is happenning.

Sorry about that- I didn't know what Apostacy meant (hits self)

I've noticed that just about every single one of these declarations is lamely trying to pick tiny things wrong with the individuals involved (such as Todd) and then using these mistakes to justify why The Lakeland revival is clearly the work of Satan.

Please don't listen to them- I could go into great detail about it all but my Pastor does it better. Here is a link to his blog about the Lakeland revival, I would highly suggest reading it:

http://anthonydelaney.wordpress.com/2008/05/09/the-wrong-question/
On every side there are pros and cons. I am only showing that others are showing the cons and not that I agree or disagree. As I stated things related to the things presented make me uncomfortable so therefore I'm keeping my personal opinion just that. Personal. ;)

Friend of Jesus
May 13th 2008, 05:07 PM
Everyone's got a right to their own opinion I guess.

But it is the work of God that is happenning in Lakeland, believe it or not

ProjectPeter
May 13th 2008, 05:31 PM
Ok reports of these services are popping up on other message boards and I'm just telling you what I'm seeing. Things about these services are popping up on "Apostacy warning" websites. I'm just telling what I'm reading. Don't shoot the messenger!
Keep in mind though... most of these "apostasy" websites... also called discernment sites... are driven totally by their own doctrine. Many don't believe that the gifts of the Spirit are active today for example... therefore any group of folk that do in fact "speak in tongues" to these guys are bad etc. So it is easy to go to these sites and paint something as false... but folks need understand what it is that drives them to paint it false. They will also look for the goofiest stuff out there and put it up as their proof. An example would be the YouTube thing in here of the guys in the hotel room laughing themselves silly. They were there at the Revival therefore the Revival is silly because some men were acting silly in their hotel room. Now... my point isn't that the folks down there (even Todd) would think this stuff legit... I figure they do. But my point is that just because some folk act odd... doesn't allow us to judge the entire group down there as odd. That's the danger of these sites and rest assured... they are a dime a dozen on the Internet and most of them are wrong as rain is wet and a lot of them do what they do with wrong motive to boot. I know several of those guys personally. So don't put that much stock in them. Sure... they have links where you can get some information... but their stuff need line up with Scripture or they become just as bad as what they accuse others of being.

This wasn't specifically to you but just a friendly reminder to all of us... using your post to make the point. :)

ProjectPeter
May 13th 2008, 05:40 PM
Well, depends on how you look at it. They are sending out warnings about the revival services in Lakeland.
To be honest, the reason I rarely comment on things such as this is because of the passages in Matt. 12:24-30. The Lord Jesus was here in person and they were accusing Him of the source of His Power for healings being from somewhere else and it was blasphemy.
Now, I don't know if makes the same accusations about another's work to turn out to be the same. Regardless, it makes me uneasy and I believe it takes a person of great discernment to judge between these things. Anyone can do a search for the Revival and also Apostasy and find these sites. I just read, take note and then go on.
FWIWI think that shows wisdom on your part. We need to be slow to speak. Not afraid to speak when needing to speak but even then... very slow with our tongue is always a good practice. :)

My heart's Desire
May 13th 2008, 05:45 PM
Keep in mind though... most of these "apostasy" websites... also called discernment sites... are driven totally by their own doctrine. Many don't believe that the gifts of the Spirit are active today for example... therefore any group of folk that do in fact "speak in tongues" to these guys are bad etc. So it is easy to go to these sites and paint something as false... but folks need understand what it is that drives them to paint it false. They will also look for the goofiest stuff out there and put it up as their proof. An example would be the YouTube thing in here of the guys in the hotel room laughing themselves silly. They were there at the Revival therefore the Revival is silly because some men were acting silly in their hotel room. Now... my point isn't that the folks down there (even Todd) would think this stuff legit... I figure they do. But my point is that just because some folk act odd... doesn't allow us to judge the entire group down there as odd. That's the danger of these sites and rest assured... they are a dime a dozen on the Internet and most of them are wrong as rain is wet and a lot of them do what they do with wrong motive to boot. I know several of those guys personally. So don't put that much stock in them. Sure... they have links where you can get some information... but their stuff need line up with Scripture or they become just as bad as what they accuse others of being.

This wasn't specifically to you but just a friendly reminder to all of us... using your post to make the point. :)
thank you Peter. As you know by now, I read man's opinion, but I stand on the Word of God. I wasn't pointing out any website at all, just putting forth the pros and cons. If one only looks at the pros, they will never see that there are cons too. I should have just said "Don't take everything at face value, just do the research. Until this thread, I'd never heard of the Revival nor have I heard of Todd either. Well, I won't go on about it. If the point of the thread is that there is NO deception then why even ask as the title of the thread does? Not everyone's doctrine is the exact same as mine but that doesn't mean that I throw it all out. I look to see if it lines up with the Word of God. Anyway, neither here nor there. I gotta go to work! :)

ProjectPeter
May 13th 2008, 06:54 PM
Go to work and be blessed. ;)

Friend of Jesus
May 13th 2008, 08:52 PM
thank you Peter. As you know by now, I read man's opinion, but I stand on the Word of God. I wasn't pointing out any website at all, just putting forth the pros and cons. If one only looks at the pros, they will never see that there are cons too. I should have just said "Don't take everything at face value, just do the research. Until this thread, I'd never heard of the Revival nor have I heard of Todd either. Well, I won't go on about it. If the point of the thread is that there is NO deception then why even ask as the title of the thread does? Not everyone's doctrine is the exact same as mine but that doesn't mean that I throw it all out. I look to see if it lines up with the Word of God. Anyway, neither here nor there. I gotta go to work! :)

I understand completely where you are coming from- if I was in your position I'd think on the same lines. But because my Pastor has gone and seen these things first hand and bought some of his experiences home- I know that what is happenning is God's work.

I'm not trying to present opinion as fact- quite the opposite, I simply KNOW that what is happenning in Lakeland is of God. Not because I am stubborn but because I literally know. In the same way that I know I am filled with the Holy Spirit- I can see its fruit, so how can there be any other explanation.

God Bless

timmyb
May 13th 2008, 09:42 PM
The reality of this is that there is no other way this could be other than a move of God... Does Satan work against himself?... I challenge the critics to look at the lives changed from the revival and look at the before and after and then say it wasn't of God... It's easy to criticize anything...

ravi4u2
May 14th 2008, 04:30 AM
then where are the signs, the wonders, the miracles... you claim to have the power of the kingdom... then demonstrate it and let signs and wonders be done through your hands in the name of Jesus... or are you going to deny that?If you are saved, then you are the sign, the wonder and miracle. For now, you have become the Temple of the Living God. Outward manifestations will follow the inward change. It is better to know the ways of God rather than to see the acts of God.

Friend of Jesus
May 14th 2008, 07:38 AM
If you are saved, then you are the sign, the wonder and miracle. For now, you have become the Temple of the Living God. Outward manifestations will follow the inward change. It is better to know the ways of God rather than to see the acts of God.


It is not the healings, nor the prophesies, nor the resurrections that make this revival so amazing. It is simply the awesome presence of the Holy Spirit- It's like you can reach out and touch God. All of these miracles are a result (fruit) of the Spirit- but it is the Holy Spirit in itself that makes this revival so powerful.

ProjectPeter
May 14th 2008, 12:13 PM
The reality of this is that there is no other way this could be other than a move of God... Does Satan work against himself?... I challenge the critics to look at the lives changed from the revival and look at the before and after and then say it wasn't of God... It's easy to criticize anything...
Let me bring a dose of reality to this though. The revival has been going on a bit over 40 days now. While there may be some "changed" lives right now... let me see a year from now. One cannot judge much by that in all honesty. I could give you a ton of names of folks that got all "changed" at Brownsville too. Several months later... that change wasn't so evident and today... many are stone cold heathens. So that someone comes back excited and fired up... that doesn't necessarily denote change. Short term okay... but short term change isn't that much change at all.

Now to keep it fair... that isn't always the fault of the person preaching the Revival. That often falls on the person themselves as well as to a large degree the church that they go back to. But nevertheless... changed lives, while good and while a good sign, isn't the greatest measuring stick to use as history has shown us MANY times.... starting in the book of Exodus for a great example.

ProjectPeter
May 14th 2008, 12:15 PM
It is not the healings, nor the prophesies, nor the resurrections that make this revival so amazing. It is simply the awesome presence of the Holy Spirit- It's like you can reach out and touch God. All of these miracles are a result (fruit) of the Spirit- but it is the Holy Spirit in itself that makes this revival so powerful.
Tell me something... and I understand what you are saying. Why does that constitute Revival? The Holy Spirit isn't just parked down in Lakeland Florida right now. I think this is a part that concerns me maybe most. It is like... Go to Florida and experience the tangible presence of the Holy Ghost! Why would one need to go to Florida for that?

Friend of Jesus
May 14th 2008, 04:14 PM
In Acts people would lie down the sick in Peter's shadow and they were healed. Not because there was anything special about Peter's shadow- But because they had complete confidence that they would be healed.

It is the same with Florida. People believe that if they go to Florida they will be filled with the Holy Spirit- so God fills them. IT IS A REVIVAL OF FAITH.

You can stay in your hometown and be filled, or go to the desert and be filled, or get baptised and be filled, or lie in bed praying and be filled. The location is irrelevent- It is FAITH that makes people filled with the Holy Spirit.

In my church if a prayer meeting was held and people just went along as they do normally to church: to spend some time with God and to learn about him- then they would get that much. But because a prayer meeting was held after my Pastor had got back from Florida fired up with the Spirit. He said come along and we will see healings and we will invite God into church and have our own revival.

And guess what happened- Exactly what people believed would happen. Healings, speaking in tongues, people bursting with the Spirit, many people lying on the floor as God touched them.

I hope this answers your question- It's not enough to ask for God's Spirit. You've got to be ready to RECIEVE his Spirit too.

amazzin
May 14th 2008, 04:29 PM
Let me pop in here. I am and will be following this topic very closely for reason that I do not want to discuss on the open boards.

The fruit of a life spent in the presence of Jesus, through devotions, prayer, the word is always good fruit. The closer one gets to Christ the more Christ pulls out the weeds and undesired things in our lives. But so is true with what he replaces it with. God knows what is needs and He does not cookie cut what He gives you and others. To some He gives an overwhelming presence of His love, to others he heals and others he saves entire families. Each is different because we each approach God with different needs.

The impact on your pastor is primarily the result of his meeting with God in a fresh and new way. I would reckon to say, that perhaps he and many others needed to get away and go to a faith filled place to get that touch. But I also say this that had that opportunity been available closer to home, he would have met God in that same way.

Consequently, he took that touch (anointing) back to his church and since the fruit is good fruit (a personal revelation) the harvest also produces good fruit.

But, here's my "But". Revivals are all about the above but it is first all about the gospel changing lives through the preaching of His word to the unsaved. Salvations is the fruit of revival, then the secondary effect of miracles, signs and wonders follow.

Let's praise God for all that is happening in Florida but also praise God for what's happening in Asia (a textbook example of revival and persecution that follows) and Africa and the church down the road that doesn't get the media attention but God is moving with the anointing of His Spirit.

Every life that is "changed" must testify relentlessly and cause change in the lives of the unsaved or else the fruit was not good enough to produce a harvest and it will die.

ProjectPeter
May 14th 2008, 04:41 PM
In Acts people would lie down the sick in Peter's shadow and they were healed. Not because there was anything special about Peter's shadow- But because they had complete confidence that they would be healed.

It is the same with Florida. People believe that if they go to Florida they will be filled with the Holy Spirit- so God fills them. IT IS A REVIVAL OF FAITH.

You can stay in your hometown and be filled, or go to the desert and be filled, or get baptised and be filled, or lie in bed praying and be filled. The location is irrelevent- It is FAITH that makes people filled with the Holy Spirit.

In my church if a prayer meeting was held and people just went along as they do normally to church: to spend some time with God and to learn about him- then they would get that much. But because a prayer meeting was held after my Pastor had got back from Florida fired up with the Spirit. He said come along and we will see healings and we will invite God into church and have our own revival.

And guess what happened- Exactly what people believed would happen. Healings, speaking in tongues, people bursting with the Spirit, many people lying on the floor as God touched them.

I hope this answers your question- It's not enough to ask for God's Spirit. You've got to be ready to RECIEVE his Spirit too.
I am glad that folks faith is being revived. That is certainly a good thing and I don't think anyone would argue this! Hope not anyway! And keep in mind too... I would never want to say or do anything at all to put such a fire out. The church does often need revived... some even need a cattle prod to help wake them up!

That being said... listen to what Amazzin says as well. Somewhere in here that fire has to be about salvation of souls. That actually should be our primary focus (all believers) in that we are all instructed to go out there and tell folks the good news of Jesus Christ. I am reminded of an article that I wrote one time... it was about prayer. Often times folks will meet together and pray for souls to be saved and they will pray and pray and pray... as they should do. But until they in fact get up off their knees and go out there and tell the good news of Christ... prayer has just become an excuse and it has no legs. One must put legs to that prayer... Go into all the world... and then that prayer is mixed with true faith in that it is a working faith.

timmyb
May 14th 2008, 04:45 PM
Let me bring a dose of reality to this though. The revival has been going on a bit over 40 days now. While there may be some "changed" lives right now... let me see a year from now. One cannot judge much by that in all honesty. I could give you a ton of names of folks that got all "changed" at Brownsville too. Several months later... that change wasn't so evident and today... many are stone cold heathens. So that someone comes back excited and fired up... that doesn't necessarily denote change. Short term okay... but short term change isn't that much change at all.

Now to keep it fair... that isn't always the fault of the person preaching the Revival. That often falls on the person themselves as well as to a large degree the church that they go back to. But nevertheless... changed lives, while good and while a good sign, isn't the greatest measuring stick to use as history has shown us MANY times.... starting in the book of Exodus for a great example.

I totally and completely agree... I just want this to be reasonably judged... there is some good and some not so good... there will be lasting fruit and there will be some who will not... It's a matter of eating the meat and spitting out the bones...

Jesusinmyheart
May 14th 2008, 05:09 PM
With the title being end times revival or end times deception...i have to say i see both taking place.

Sad but true.

But this is what happens when people don't study the scriptures out for themselves and just adhere to what any joe schmuck in such and such church teaches.

It's a "see for yourself" type of thing. Fore those who ask and truly want truth the door will be opened. Study the scriptures.....

Shalom,
Tanja

Friend of Jesus
May 14th 2008, 09:03 PM
I really don't know how both could be taking place

If the people "in charge" of the revival are a bit shaky on scripture that is their own fault but does by no mean make them decieving.

I am sure that once a revival in England gets underway, many people will be bought to God. BUT it must begin with you. Someone said (can't remember who) that the best way to start a revival is to draw a circle around yourself and say to God "Lord let your fire fall on everything in this circle" and from there it will spread.

Once we are filled ourselves we spend no time in spreading God's word- It is like with the Pentecost: The apostles recieved the Spirit first and then started spreading the word- not the other way round.

As long as this revival does not cause us to neglect spreading his word (can't think of why on earth it would- If anything it would give us an incentive) then this revival is not really a problem. In fact it is the opposite- it is a blessing, so let's give thanks to God for it.

My heart's Desire
May 14th 2008, 11:59 PM
If someone is in ministry and you want to know why they preach what they do, you
search to see what they believe. When something is experience driven to do this is even more important. Then you research to see what other people under a certain teacher have experienced elsewhere. I for one think I've read and seen enough. Hope others use the same caution when dealing with the supernatural.

Ekeak
May 15th 2008, 02:30 AM
Revivals happen almost once or twice every generation. There were revivals in the 1900's, there were revivals in the 1800's, in the 1700's, and on back. Classifying it as an end-times revival or deception is hardly called for if similar events have happened in the past. That would be like calling the Iraq War a sign of the end-times simply because it's a war, while ignoring the Vietnam War, the Korean War, World War II, World War I, etc.

Related websites:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revivalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_blessing
http://www.evanwiggs.com/history.html

yea but if Russia attacks Isreal... Isn't that supposed to be something?

Ekeak
May 15th 2008, 02:34 AM
This is rediculous. There is no controversy, I think he's playing with too many people's perceptions.
POSTEDIT: Although to some... they could vary in opinion. I think this guy could really believe this is happening to him.

Ekeak
May 15th 2008, 02:36 AM
I'm even tempted to go back and look at it some more on the videos. Todd's is either a prophet... or a false prophet.
EDIT: I'll go and look at this some more. Perhaps this is not a deception.
POSTEDIT: Not that I have power, or anything. I just am throwing it out there (like some of you are) that this guy could be a player.
POSTPOSTEDIT: Perhaps for every false prophet there is a prophet. Let's just hope that's the case -.-.

Friend of Jesus
May 15th 2008, 08:32 AM
I disagree entirely- There is very little special about Todd- he is neither a prophet and is certainly not a false prophet.

Todd is simply the guy preaching- he's not the guy doing the work- GOD IS. People aren't bought to God in Florida because of what the guy at the front is saying but because they are experiencing something in the worship- THE HOLY SPIRIT. People aren't being healed because Todd has a magic touch- no, most of the sick and injured are healed in the worship (including several people in my church, so don't argue this fact).

I will repeat what I said before- There is no point trying to pick tiny things wrong about each individual. Because you are basically asking "who sinned?" which Jesus points out is the wrong question (John chp 9)- a better question would be "WHO SAVES?" because many people are being saved in Florida- The answer is JESUS SAVES!

God Bless!

ravi4u2
May 15th 2008, 08:46 AM
It is not the healings, nor the prophesies, nor the resurrections that make this revival so amazing. It is simply the awesome presence of the Holy Spirit- It's like you can reach out and touch God. All of these miracles are a result (fruit) of the Spirit- but it is the Holy Spirit in itself that makes this revival so powerful.
I find it useless to argue over whether or not the presence of God can actually be found in this 'revival'. Instead, it is best to ask, 'so what?'. Even if God is present in this 'revival' and His gifts are manifested there, does not prove He condones the 'revival'. God's presence, as wonderful as it is, and His gifts, valuable as they are, are given freely. Now, I think the Spirit is wonderful but can miracles, prophecies or even earnest prayers, somehow override scripture's plain teaching?

Friend of Jesus
May 15th 2008, 09:00 AM
Again I have to disagree- the fact that the Holy Spirit is working there means that God is in control and in charge of this revival.

Also what makes you think that scripture is being neglected. It isn't in my church- and we're about to have a revival (heck, it's happenning already)

ravi4u2
May 15th 2008, 09:56 AM
Again I have to disagree- the fact that the Holy Spirit is working there means that God is in control and in charge of this revival.

Also what makes you think that scripture is being neglected. It isn't in my church- and we're about to have a revival (heck, it's happenning already)The church of corinth is a biblical example of how the Spirit can move in a church despite gross shortcomings. There are numerous modern day examples as well, from fallen tele-evangelist movements to prophetic ministries. Was it not the Spirit of God moving in these ministries? Weren't real miracles taking place? And yet, can anyone say that these ministries were sanctioned by God? What makes me think why scripture is neglected? Well, what is your opinion about angel Emma?

ProjectPeter
May 15th 2008, 02:55 PM
The church of corinth is a biblical example of how the Spirit can move in a church despite gross shortcomings. There are numerous modern day examples as well, from fallen tele-evangelist movements to prophetic ministries. Was it not the Spirit of God moving in these ministries? Weren't real miracles taking place? And yet, can anyone say that these ministries were sanctioned by God? What makes me think why scripture is neglected? Well, what is your opinion about angel Emma?
Ravi,

Just because a minister falls doesn't make the ministry not "sanctioned" by God. David was certainly sanctioned by God as King as was Saul. Both fell... one stayed down and one got up. But neither fall negated the fact that their kingship was sanctioned by God. Same with ministers... just because a man fell doesn't negate their original call by God.

As to the Emma Angel thing. It is bizarre. But then you know what... so is Ezekiel. Look... I don't even have a problem with visions and whatnot or even angelic visitations. I have no problem with that sort of thing still happening. Now... I have a problem when that sort of thing is the main focus but not in the idea of those type things still happening.

timmyb
May 15th 2008, 04:59 PM
Ravi,

Just because a minister falls doesn't make the ministry not "sanctioned" by God. David was certainly sanctioned by God as King as was Saul. Both fell... one stayed down and one got up. But neither fall negated the fact that their kingship was sanctioned by God. Same with ministers... just because a man fell doesn't negate their original call by God.

As to the Emma Angel thing. It is bizarre. But then you know what... so is Ezekiel. Look... I don't even have a problem with visions and whatnot or even angelic visitations. I have no problem with that sort of thing still happening. Now... I have a problem when that sort of thing is the main focus but not in the idea of those type things still happening.

I totally agree... the healings and the manifestations don't need to be the focus of the revival... it needs to be God at all times... To give God the focus means to let him work and obey him... But there is the reality of the benefits of that, manifestations, healings, and signs and wonders. Praise the Lord and forget not his benefits. Psalm 103

My heart's Desire
May 15th 2008, 05:04 PM
I don't even have a problem with visions and whatnot or even angelic visitations. I have no problem with that sort of thing still happening. Aside from the subject, but are demons not also angels? Do they cease to be angels when they become demons? Hum I never thought of that before!

My heart's Desire
May 15th 2008, 05:08 PM
oops, was gonna let this go, but is interesting~

daughter
May 15th 2008, 05:11 PM
What's this about an angel? I've read up on that, and it's setting my alarm bells off!

ProjectPeter
May 15th 2008, 05:28 PM
Aside from the subject, but are demons not also angels? Do they cease to be angels when they become demons? Hum I never thought of that before!Well... since we don't have the recipe book... don't know. :lol: But seriously... I don't suspect it is all spooky and or sweet like many pictures depict. That is why it is terribly important that one know the Scripture well and have discernment to be able to keep themselves from getting into a mess.

timmyb
May 15th 2008, 05:29 PM
Aside from the subject, but are demons not also angels? Do they cease to be angels when they become demons? Hum I never thought of that before!

reality is yeah Satan can transform himself into an angel of light... if there are demons then there are angels... and besides demons don't heal.... believe me if you have ever seen a demon manifest you will know.... demons don't manifest in the way I have seen in watching the Lakeland Revival.... demons don't heal people... they possess them and are all about control... The Holy Spirit is a perfect gentleman and doesn't demand control but will take it when you give it to him...

Can demons cast out demons?

ProjectPeter
May 15th 2008, 05:31 PM
What's this about an angel? I've read up on that, and it's setting my alarm bells off!
Todd is much about angels. No mystery there and even the folks who follow him should recognize that the mention of angels here and angels there and visions of angels and visititations before pretty much every service and visitations during the service and etc. etc... there is an awful lot of emphasis put on the angelic. One need determine if it is too much so.

My heart's Desire
May 15th 2008, 05:45 PM
I will repeat what I said before- There is no point trying to pick tiny things wrong about each individual. That's true. But....we should be aware of the doctrine that one believes in before blindly following a person. We shouldn't even really follow a person should we, or should we? And I know we do! Maybe not blindly all the time, but we do in a way. We say I love so and so. I listen to so and so. I support so and so. And I don't think that is always wrong. God has granted some ministers with great insight into the Scriptures.
But.. will God still honor with works those who have some say, humm New Age thought, spiritualism, eastern religion etc mixed in with their doctrine?
I'm talking here about ANYONE who names the Name of Christ or God.

Diggindeeper
May 15th 2008, 05:57 PM
Keep in mind what John said in Revelations:

Revelations 22:8-9

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Why any angel worship, at all, whatsoever? It sure seems to me that this man is very near to worshiping angels, or at the least considers that he has a private pipeline to God, and angels (of which none of his can be proven in scripture--like, where is his "Emma" in scripture?) but they supposedly attend and approve his every move?

My heart's Desire
May 15th 2008, 06:17 PM
Well... since we don't have the recipe book... don't know. :lol: But seriously... I don't suspect it is all spooky and or sweet like many pictures depict. That is why it is terribly important that one know the Scripture well and have discernment to be able to keep themselves from getting into a mess.
That's true too. If it was all so clear to everyone as spooky or sweet, they wouldn't have the chance to deceive anyone. Remember..if possible would deceive even the elect?..

ravi4u2
May 16th 2008, 01:57 AM
Ravi,

Just because a minister falls doesn't make the ministry not "sanctioned" by God. David was certainly sanctioned by God as King as was Saul. Both fell... one stayed down and one got up. But neither fall negated the fact that their kingship was sanctioned by God. Same with ministers... just because a man fell doesn't negate their original call by God.Precisely what I said earlier. I find it useless to argue over whether or not the presence of God can actually be found in this 'revival'. Instead, it is best to ask, 'so what?'. Even if God is present in this 'revival' and His gifts are manifested there, does not prove He "sanctions" the 'revival'. God's presence, as wonderful as it is, and His gifts, valuable as they are, are given freely.


As to the Emma Angel thing. It is bizarre. But then you know what... so is Ezekiel. Look... I don't even have a problem with visions and whatnot or even angelic visitations. I have no problem with that sort of thing still happening. Now... I have a problem when that sort of thing is the main focus but not in the idea of those type things still happening.As 'bizarre' as Ezekiel was, he never went beyond the revelation of God to His forerunners. As for Angel Emma, she is extra-biblical because there are no 'female angels' found anywhere in scripture. I do not have a problem with angels and visions as well. In fact, I am quite prone to such suipernatural encounters (please see my blog entry: Master of Colors (http://lifegathering.bravejournal.com/entry/24420)). It is one thing when your supernatural encounters line up with the revelations of God, but quite another, when they become extra-biblical and sometimes, even demonically influenced. As someone rightly said, demons are after all fallen angels as well. So, we can perhaps even call them angelic visitations. But are these other angelic visitations from the Lord or are there mere deceptions, to lead His people away from the Giver to the 'gifts'?

ProDeo
May 16th 2008, 09:03 AM
What's this about an angel? I've read up on that, and it's setting my alarm bells off!

I am with you daughter on this.

Todd in Ethiopia casting out a demon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqgqoXYPz7U

My (limited) Biblical understanding of casting out devils is that:

1) A one-time spoken command in the Name of Jesus was sufficient to force the demon to leave, nowhere I remember the command had to be repeated a dozen times;

2) Nowhere I read the person in command was in a great emotional state of mind, instead I sense a calm Holy Power when Jesus casted out a devil, the same with the Apostles in Acts;

3) Nowhere I read about physical contact with a demon possessed person, no laying on of hands, let alone sitting on a demon possessed person.

Anyone?

Ed

Friend of Jesus
May 16th 2008, 09:40 AM
If you look back a few pages to my post about John chapter 9, you will see that Jesus can heal people in whatever way he wants. Jesus sees a blind man- he could have just laid hands on him and said "be healed" and the man would be able to see.

But he didn't- No, he spat on the ground and made pud pies to slap on the blind man's eyes. Jesus told my Pastor that he did this "so you would wonder".

So as you can see, the method is irrelevent- as long as the fruit is good. And it is!

Again- I don't like to repeat myself, but there is little point in trying to pick little things wrong with people. Because, as Jesus also shows in John chapter 9- EVERYONE SINS.

Also just to clarify- often when Jesus threw out a demon, the person being healed would have an even greater fit. -But in the end the demon would be thrown out.

I will say it again. Before anyone else gives a link to another website that "proves" how this is all the devil's work. I will say this:

Does your God still do miracles?
Does your God still heal people?
If not I'll stick with mine,
I like mine

ProjectPeter
May 16th 2008, 10:15 AM
Precisely what I said earlier. I find it useless to argue over whether or not the presence of God can actually be found in this 'revival'. Instead, it is best to ask, 'so what?'. Even if God is present in this 'revival' and His gifts are manifested there, does not prove He "sanctions" the 'revival'. God's presence, as wonderful as it is, and His gifts, valuable as they are, are given freely.

As 'bizarre' as Ezekiel was, he never went beyond the revelation of God to His forerunners. As for Angel Emma, she is extra-biblical because there are no 'female angels' found anywhere in scripture. I do not have a problem with angels and visions as well. In fact, I am quite prone to such suipernatural encounters (please see my blog entry: Master of Colors (http://lifegathering.bravejournal.com/entry/24420)). It is one thing when your supernatural encounters line up with the revelations of God, but quite another, when they become extra-biblical and sometimes, even demonically influenced. As someone rightly said, demons are after all fallen angels as well. So, we can perhaps even call them angelic visitations. But are these other angelic visitations from the Lord or are there mere deceptions, to lead His people away from the Giver to the 'gifts'?
Like I said... that's where folks need to be able to discern. It is vital in this day and age, especially with the technology that we have.

ProjectPeter
May 16th 2008, 10:17 AM
I am with you daughter on this.

Todd in Ethiopia casting out a demon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqgqoXYPz7U

My (limited) Biblical understanding of casting out devils is that:

1) A one-time spoken command in the Name of Jesus was sufficient to force the demon to leave, nowhere I remember the command had to be repeated a dozen times;

2) Nowhere I read the person in command was in a great emotional state of mind, instead I sense a calm Holy Power when Jesus casted out a devil, the same with the Apostles in Acts;

3) Nowhere I read about physical contact with a demon possessed person, no laying on of hands, let alone sitting on a demon possessed person.

Anyone?

EdRead the account of the guy in the tombs. Jesus told the demons to leave but they stuck around and negotiated a stay in a herd of pigs. So no... not always is it as easy as saying one time... come out. That's a mis-teaching that has come about by a lot of Word of Faith teachers and they are wrong on that. :)

daughter
May 16th 2008, 10:28 AM
If you look back a few pages to my post about John chapter 9, you will see that Jesus can heal people in whatever way he wants. Jesus sees a blind man- he could have just laid hands on him and said "be healed" and the man would be able to see.

But he didn't- No, he spat on the ground and made pud pies to slap on the blind man's eyes. Jesus told my Pastor that he did this "so you would wonder".

So as you can see, the method is irrelevent- as long as the fruit is good. And it is!

Again- I don't like to repeat myself, but there is little point in trying to pick little things wrong with people. Because, as Jesus also shows in John chapter 9- EVERYONE SINS.

Also just to clarify- often when Jesus threw out a demon, the person being healed would have an even greater fit. -But in the end the demon would be thrown out.

I will say it again. Before anyone else gives a link to another website that "proves" how this is all the devil's work. I will say this:

Does your God still do miracles?
Does your God still heal people?
If not I'll stick with mine,
I like mine
There is another message in the miracle of the blind man who sees in two stages.

Sometimes when you first "see" you don't see everything. For example, when I first called on God, I didn't know exactly what I was doing, I wasn't even aware that I was repenting. I was just giving up - collapsing as it were. And then I knew that something had happened, but I didn't understand yet what it was. I was given a bible the very next day, and as I was reading the Bible the scales progressively fell from my eyes, and I began to realise that I was in a process of repentance and renewal... but I didn't know all that at once. And I presume that I'll continue to see more and more clearly as time goes on.

I think that miracle makes us wonder, and it also shows us that salvation is an ongoing process, not a one time only event, He continues to open our eyes and lead us from darkness into light.

Friend of Jesus
May 16th 2008, 11:06 AM
There is another message in the miracle of the blind man who sees in two stages.

Sometimes when you first "see" you don't see everything. For example, when I first called on God, I didn't know exactly what I was doing, I wasn't even aware that I was repenting. I was just giving up - collapsing as it were. And then I knew that something had happened, but I didn't understand yet what it was. I was given a bible the very next day, and as I was reading the Bible the scales progressively fell from my eyes, and I began to realise that I was in a process of repentance and renewal... but I didn't know all that at once. And I presume that I'll continue to see more and more clearly as time goes on.

I think that miracle makes us wonder, and it also shows us that salvation is an ongoing process, not a one time only event, He continues to open our eyes and lead us from darkness into light.


Good point- I hadn't noticed that before. I used to think my salvation happened in the space of 2 or 3 months about 5 years ago. But after the experience of God I am having at the moment, I realise that was only part of the package of salvation that God had given me- I just hadn't fully unwrapped it.

Slightly different to your experience I know- but it is the same kind of idea

timmyb
May 16th 2008, 06:48 PM
Where do you get the idea of angel worship in the Lakeland Revival?

ProjectPeter
May 16th 2008, 06:58 PM
Timmy,

Got to be honest with you on this issue... there is WAY TOO MUCH emphasis put on the angelic in Lakeland. With Todd as well and that's been a pattern of his for several years now so nothing new in regard to him. But there is much more emphasis on the angelic than there is on Christ.

Flip side of that coin... Of late Todd is putting a bit more emphasis on Christ and even had a couple of services where he was almost "grossly" (just a phrase to make the point folks so don't freak) put the emphasis on Christ. So we will see. Unfortunately... that hasn't held consistent but it is happening more and more. So perhaps he is listening.

timmyb
May 16th 2008, 07:01 PM
Timmy,

Got to be honest with you on this issue... there is WAY TOO MUCH emphasis put on the angelic in Lakeland. With Todd as well and that's been a pattern of his for several years now so nothing new in regard to him. But there is much more emphasis on the angelic than there is on Christ.

Flip side of that coin... Of late Todd is putting a bit more emphasis on Christ and even had a couple of services where he was almost "grossly" (just a phrase to make the point folks so don't freak) put the emphasis on Christ. So we will see. Unfortunately... that hasn't held consistent but it is happening more and more. So perhaps he is listening.


do you realize that the angelic is working in partnership with the Holy Spirit... I don't see them worshipping angels, I see them paying attention to what they are doing and where they are at..... Everytime I hear Todd talk about the angel of the Lord it's usually where he's at, or what he's doing... I find that he's listening... I haven't seen a hint of angelic worship in this revival and I try to watch it as much as I can.

ProjectPeter
May 16th 2008, 07:04 PM
I didn't say there was "worship." You are the one that put that word in there in regard to what I said. What I said was there is WAY TOO MUCH EMPHASIS. Difference there Timmy. And as to your idea of angels working in such a way... how about one of them there Scriptures to make that point. ;)

ProDeo
May 16th 2008, 07:09 PM
Read the account of the guy in the tombs. Jesus told the demons to leave but they stuck around and negotiated a stay in a herd of pigs. So no... not always is it as easy as saying one time... come out. That's a mis-teaching that has come about by a lot of Word of Faith teachers and they are wrong on that. :)

OK, very well. What about Matt 7:21-24?

21 Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will go into the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the pleasure of my Father in heaven.
22 A great number will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, were we not prophets in your name, and did we not by your name send out evil spirits, and by your name do works of power?
23 And then will I say to them, I never had knowledge of you: go from me, you workers of evil.

It's interesting that Jesus does not deny the claims made by these people, this leaves room for speculation that verse 22 is literal true, that there are non-Christians who pretend being Christian doing supernatural things in the name of Jesus and that God allows these miracles to happen anyway? Now that would be confusing, or?

Alright, the absence of a denial is not conclusive and maybe that's the best explanation. Verse 20 gives us the key to recognize them anyway, their fruits and I haven't heard a single bad rumour about Tod.

Ed

timmyb
May 16th 2008, 07:10 PM
I didn't say there was "worship." You are the one that put that word in there in regard to what I said. What I said was there is WAY TOO MUCH EMPHASIS. Difference there Timmy. And as to your idea of angels working in such a way... how about one of them there Scriptures to make that point. ;)

i never said you did... i was seeing the implication made throughout the threads...


Heb 1:13 And to which of the angels has he ever said, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?

they work to minister the work of the Holy Spirit and the ministers of God who are humans are to work in partnership with that....

amazzin
May 16th 2008, 07:23 PM
i never said you did... i was seeing the implication made throughout the threads...


Heb 1:13 And to which of the angels has he ever said, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?

they work to minister the work of the Holy Spirit and the ministers of God who are humans are to work in partnership with that....

Tim
We don't need to come to the angels, or to any other creature, to guide us. If we know Christ, we have everything we need in Him, and He alone is the one to whom we should come.

After all, when Jesus was taken into heaven after His resurrection, He was given His rightful place of authority at the right hand of God. Now, the Bible says, He intercedes for us—and He is all we need, because He loves us and we are His special concern. The Bible says, "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25).

Yes, God has given us the unseen angels, who are "ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation" (Hebrews 1:14). But we are not to worship them or pray to them. When the Apostle John fell down to worship the angel who had been sent to tell him about the future, the angel rebuked him and said, "Do not do it! ... Worship God!" (Revelation 22:9).

timmyb
May 16th 2008, 07:30 PM
Tim
We don't need to come to the angels, or to any other creature, to guide us. If we know Christ, we have everything we need in Him, and He alone is the one to whom we should come.

After all, when Jesus was taken into heaven after His resurrection, He was given His rightful place of authority at the right hand of God. Now, the Bible says, He intercedes for us—and He is all we need, because He loves us and we are His special concern. The Bible says, "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25).

Yes, God has given us the unseen angels, who are "ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation" (Hebrews 1:14). But we are not to worship them or pray to them. When the Apostle John fell down to worship the angel who had been sent to tell him about the future, the angel rebuked him and said, "Do not do it! ... Worship God!" (Revelation 22:9).

and where did I say I worshipped angels?... I just said that angelic ministry is real and we are to partner with that for the sake of furthering the kingdom of God...

stop putting words in my mouth

ProjectPeter
May 16th 2008, 07:31 PM
Well here's the problem... when you use words like "worship" and that isn't what anyone said... that's not being very intellectually honest. I certainly never implied any such thing and unless I've missed a post in here... I've not seen that said.

And as to your use of Scripture in Hebrews... you need to really study that out. What you imply it says is not at all what that is saying. You're really stretching that.

ProjectPeter
May 16th 2008, 07:32 PM
OK, very well. What about Matt 7:21-24?

21 Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will go into the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the pleasure of my Father in heaven.
22 A great number will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, were we not prophets in your name, and did we not by your name send out evil spirits, and by your name do works of power?
23 And then will I say to them, I never had knowledge of you: go from me, you workers of evil.

It's interesting that Jesus does not deny the claims made by these people, this leaves room for speculation that verse 22 is literal true, that there are non-Christians who pretend being Christian doing supernatural things in the name of Jesus and that God allows these miracles to happen anyway? Now that would be confusing, or?

Alright, the absence of a denial is not conclusive and maybe that's the best explanation. Verse 20 gives us the key to recognize them anyway, their fruits and I haven't heard a single bad rumour about Tod.

Ed
Not confusing at all if you understand the passage.

Friend of Jesus
May 16th 2008, 07:34 PM
Even my Pastor saw a vision of Angels of the Lord coming down with gifts. You can read his blog on a link I posted a few pages back.

But seriously guys- I think we should stop the discussion on angels, I think that there is very little wrong with angel emphasis in Lakeland. Again you cannot judge God's revival simply by what the guy at the front is saying- It is what is happenning to the people that matters- And believe me, they are being set on fire with the Holy Spirit.

amazzin
May 16th 2008, 07:36 PM
and where did I say I worshipped angels?... I just said that angelic ministry is real and we are to partner with that for the sake of furthering the kingdom of God...

stop putting words in my mouth

I am only bringing proper perspective on that passage you quoted

Friend of Jesus
May 16th 2008, 07:40 PM
Amazzin- with all due respect you were putting words in his mouth

timmyb
May 16th 2008, 07:50 PM
Well here's the problem... when you use words like "worship" and that isn't what anyone said... that's not being very intellectually honest. I certainly never implied any such thing and unless I've missed a post in here... I've not seen that said.

And as to your use of Scripture in Hebrews... you need to really study that out. What you imply it says is not at all what that is saying. You're really stretching that.

amazzin just assumed i said i worshipped angels.... Angels are agents of ministry sent by God... they just point to God and minister his work on earth... angels ministered to Elijah while he was in the cave (1 Kings 19)

To mention angels doesn't mean to place too much emphasis on them... it's acknowledging their work... Todd has mentioned time and time again that God is working... but as he works through humans he also works through angels to minister his work to his bride

as far as the verse, to say the angels are ministers isn't stretching the application of the verse, it's reading the verse... they are ministering spirits to man for the sake of God to his elect.... what else could it possibly say?

amazzin
May 16th 2008, 08:01 PM
amazzin just assumed i said i worshipped angels.... Angels are agents of ministry sent by God... they just point to God and minister his work on earth... angels ministered to Elijah while he was in the cave (1 Kings 19)

To mention angels doesn't mean to place too much emphasis on them... it's acknowledging their work... Todd has mentioned time and time again that God is working... but as he works through humans he also works through angels to minister his work to his bride

as far as the verse, to say the angels are ministers isn't stretching the application of the verse, it's reading the verse... they are ministering spirits to man for the sake of God to his elect.... what else could it possibly say?

Here my thing Tim. And you need to believe me when I say I now this more than you. Todd worship of angels is a know thing. His idol / mentor worshipped angels. His name was William Branham. He quotes Branham often adn uses him as an example of a Godly man. Do your homework now and find out what Branham is all about and we can talk later.

Friend of Jesus
May 16th 2008, 08:11 PM
Can I just say, for the reference- in case the last 3 times I've said it haven't been noticed- THAT THIS REVIVAL IS NOT BEING LED BY TODD!!!

It is Jesus who is leading this revival- No matter what Todd says, or what mistake Todd has made, or what Todd's mentor from goodness knows how long ago believed... IT DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE. This is a revival of faith, and it is spreading like only the Holy Spirit can.

We're having a revival in our church- but it is not my Pastor who is responsible for it- It is God.

So please everyone- leave off Todd, I don't know him personally, but I'm sure he's a great guy. This revival is being led by Jesus, so if you want to voice anything wrong about the revival- You'll have to start picking mistakes that Jesus is making.

Is he making any?... No I don't think so,

I'm sorry everyone- but this thread is starting to get on my nerves

amazzin
May 16th 2008, 08:17 PM
I'm sorry everyone- but this thread is starting to get on my nerves

Then stay out because it is both about the "revival" and "Todd".

Friend of Jesus
May 16th 2008, 08:21 PM
Then stay out because it is both about the "revival" and "Todd".


Fine then- keep pointing out the specks in Todd's eyes.

Me- I'm going to pray for him (and for you too)

timmyb
May 16th 2008, 08:33 PM
Here my thing Tim. And you need to believe me when I say I now this more than you. Todd worship of angels is a know thing. His idol / mentor worshipped angels. His name was William Branham. He quotes Branham often adn uses him as an example of a Godly man. Do your homework now and find out what Branham is all about and we can talk later.


believe you me I know all about William Branham... and I know he preached heresy... but there is no denial of his ability as a faith healer.... he preached oneness and worship of angels... but don't judge Todd by another man's work... Branham was at one point a very godly man, he worked with Gordon Lindsey then he got arrogant and tried to be a teacher of the word contrary to his calling but the giftings and callings of God are irrevocable...

Don't judge Todd by another person... judge Todd Bentley's fruit... I must admit I am leery of him quoting Branham because of the stain on the Charismatic movement because of him I don't hold that against Todd either.... don't bring William Branham into this he was a Godly man who taught errors late in his life... There is a story that when he died according to Gordon Lindsey's prophecy that as he was dying he healed his wife in Jesus name... he was a great faith healer who should have never become a teacher... but the principle of dividing the fruit from the nuts still applies...

amazzin
May 16th 2008, 08:42 PM
believe you me I know all about William Branham... and I know he preached heresy... but there is no denial of his ability as a faith healer.... he preached oneness and worship of angels... but don't judge Todd by another man's work... Branham was at one point a very godly man, he worked with Gordon Lindsey then he got arrogant and tried to be a teacher of the word contrary to his calling but the giftings and callings of God are irrevocable...

Don't judge Todd by another person... judge Todd Bentley's fruit... I must admit I am leery of him quoting Branham because of the stain on the Charismatic movement because of him I don't hold that against Todd either.... don't bring William Branham into this he was a Godly man who taught errors late in his life... There is a story that when he died according to Gordon Lindsey's prophecy that as he was dying he healed his wife in Jesus name... he was a great faith healer who should have never become a teacher... but the principle of dividing the fruit from the nuts still applies...

Okay, so read what you just said again and tell me if we are not correct in our comments about Todd and his very public ministry?

timmyb
May 16th 2008, 08:51 PM
Okay, so read what you just said again and tell me if we are not correct in our comments about Todd and his very public ministry?

he is not worshipping angels.... he is blatant in his affirmation that the revival is a work of God... I have NEVER heard Todd place any special emphasis of angels over the work of Christ... it's always in the name of Jesus that he heals... not in the name of some angel... when he sees an angel it's because he is seeing God work because the angel is always working for God for the sake of the elect...

I think you are very unfair in your judgment of Todd and his ministry...

Because you guys are judging the fruit of the revival before the fruit of it can really be made manifest... you guys by your own admission have said that the real fruit of this won't be made manifest until a few years have passed.... why not rejoice that God is moving and that he's working through a man named Todd Bentley? His past is debatable, his methods are debatable, but the collection of crutches, walkers and wheelchairs is the undeniable of the healing power of Christ and the benefits of the cross... you can tell me all day about Todd or Branham and the bad things about them and I probably won't have anything to say to respond... but right now, God is moving through this man and there is absolutely nothing you can say that it's not a work of God... feelings are one thing... but healings can only come from God...

Joh 9:33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing."

and demons don't work against themselves... nor can they heal

Friend of Jesus
May 16th 2008, 08:54 PM
he is not worshipping angels.... he is blatant in his affirmation that the revival is a work of God... I have NEVER heard Todd place any special emphasis of angels over the work of Christ... it's always in the name of Jesus that he heals... not in the name of some angel... when he sees an angel it's because he is seeing God work because the angel is always working for God for the sake of the elect...

I think you are very unfair in your judgment of Todd and his ministry...

Because you guys are judging the fruit of the revival before the fruit of it can really be made manifest... you guys by your own admission have said that the real fruit of this won't be made manifest until a few years have passed.... why not rejoice that God is moving and that he's working through a man named Todd Bentley? His past is debatable, his methods are debatable, but the collection of crutches, walkers and wheelchairs is the undeniable of the healing power of Christ and the benefits of the cross... you can tell me all day about Todd or Branham and the bad things about them and I probably won't have anything to say to respond... but right now, God is moving through this man and there is absolutely nothing you can say that it's not a work of God... feelings are one thing... but healings can only come from God...

Joh 9:33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing."

and demons don't work against themselves... nor can they heal


Thank God, there is some sense pushing back into this thread

My heart's Desire
May 16th 2008, 11:23 PM
Actually, this revival is being talked about on many Christian message boards and on websites across the Web. There are both sides presented all over so it is not hard to find information and misinformation as well. I think the reason is that we, who believe that we are in or very near the end times, don't take things at face value anymore. Now, I'm saying this much in general and this does not particularily pertain to this Revival or to the one who leads it. Might need to be subject of a different thread in fact instead of in this one.

We search the scripture and the backgrounds of what people believe. In many places, I know that many people even on this board believe there will be a great deception within the Church or just a deception period. No matter what our opinion of who is going to be deceived the general knowledge most of us have is that toward the end of time there will be deception. We call it falling away from the faith, apostasy etc etc.
And...if one believes this scripture pertains to the end time, then we also cannot get past this scripture regarding the Day of the Lord:

2 Thess. 2:8-10
Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of Him mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9. that is , the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10. and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

Might as well add verse 11.
11. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, NASB


Quite a few of us believe the one who is showing signs and wonders in this verse is the antichrist and we don't believe he has been revealed but if this is going to happen then it has in a sense already begun. Even in verse 7 of this same chapter it says that the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. That was in Paul's time. If it was then so how much more now in this day and time?
Not knowing how to end without someone getting the wrong idea, but looks like according to verse 9, signs and wonders can be done in less than a godly manner. I'm reminded of how the 2 magicians in the story of the Exodus were able to produce snakes just like the rods of Moses and Aaron's produced snakes.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not applying this to this revival yet I think today we should not take the supernatural lightly and my opinion is that many do. By lightly, I mean that we are bold enough to presume to know the source of everything that happens supernaturally.

ProjectPeter
May 17th 2008, 01:51 AM
Okay guys... There is no way that you are going to be able to separate Todd Bentley from that Revival in Lakewood.

1. This is how it is billed with the medium responsible for most folks seeing it.



FLORIDA HEALING OUTPOURING LIVE ON GOD TV WITH TODD BENTLEY



Now... Todd Bentley is a devout follower of Branham. You aren't going to hear a service or discussion by the others in this meeting without his name being brought up. And much of what Todd does today is just that... a bit of Brahnam... a bit of Kulman... a bit of Benny Hinn. Very little is his own style or even many of his dreams. There lies much of the problem that a lot of folks have and are going to have with Todd.


Now add to that the fact that Todd does in fact put a HEAVY EMPHASIS on angels. Fact... there is often times more emphasis on angels than Christ Himself.

Fact... Todd has many sermons that he has preached even before Florida and many of those sermons had a HEAVY EMPHASIS on angels in his visions.

Fact... and you watch and tell me if I am wrong. If you see him do it then watch again for a couple of nights because you would see a fluke. Tood walks on stage without a Bible. Todd doesn't have a Bible at the pulpit either. Todd really doesn't quote the Bible much save something now and again such as "your sons and daughters will dream dreams.... " etc or some such verse to attempt to justify the "outpouring."

All of this is not lies.

Now... Friend of Jesus. I don't know your pastor. Amazzin may or may not... I'm not sure because he has more contacts in the UK with pastor's than I do. But this I can tell you... neither of us is saying stuff about Todd here that we aren't PERSONALLY knowledgeable of. Not by gossip... but by personally knowing the man.

I have stated this many times... I don't want to chuck water on anyones fire. That is not my aim nor is it his. But folks who are quick to defend Todd and you don't know the man from Adam... best be careful. There are in fact folks that do know him personally and we didn't just wake up yesterday and decide we don't like him.

Both Amazzin and I are Pentecostal and have been all our lives. We've seen revival... real and bogus. We've seen amazing miracles... amazing manifestations... amazing things done by the power of God. Neither of us would ever stand for anything else and will die doing so. Yet... we've seen an awful lot of bogus too. In the end... the fruit of Toronto and the fruit of Brownsville went a bit bad. Did other revivals start in other churches as a result of those meetings? Did we get any good at all out of any of those meetings? Sure we did. But with that... came an awful lot of bad.

You are talking to two men in Amazzin and I who have and are pastor's in Pentecostal churches for quite a few years now. Many of the faces you have seen down in Lakeland are folks that we know both professionally (if you will) and personally. So you guys need to be slow to speak and listen. We are not dismissing what is happening in your church. God can do many good things even with a mess. He's done it many times... He won't stop until all of this nasty now and now is done and over with. But rest assured... it ain't all good what is happening down there and while I am trying very hard to be open to both sides of this issue... I cannot endorse this myself nor would I. Not right now and it is because of many of these such issues. Would I pray for change? Oh yes I would! Would I pray it turn all good? You bet I would, have, do and will continue to do as long as it is there and running. But as it stands right now... there is some stuff that yet needs dealt with. There are folks trying to do that... time will tell.

And Timmy... the reason we aren't rejoicing right now is because in all honesty... not at all convinced that it is God working through Todd producing anything at all. That's just the honest truth and should I speak of rejoicing about what I have seen thus far... I would not be telling you the truth nor would Amazzin. That, neither of us is willing to do.

ProjectPeter
May 17th 2008, 01:53 AM
And on an official note... if you can't handle this discussion without bugging out then please... do get out of it. This can easily be set afire and I am not going to let the flame get much bigger than a low heat. The fire is flickering now and starting to get there. Knock it off or I will close the thread.

Friend of Jesus
May 17th 2008, 02:00 PM
Ok, sorry I meant no offense- I'm just very passionate about the revival as I'm sure you would be in my situation.

Whether Todd is ligitimate or not- God is working in Florida.

I won't say anything for or against Todd, because I don't know him personally, nor have I been to the revival myself- I'll just keep passionate about the revival in my church, and leave this discussion to you guys. I just ask that you don't judge the entire revival by one man- the revival is from God, even if Todd isn't (although I believe he is- but that is simply opinion)

God Bless

amazzin
May 17th 2008, 07:26 PM
....God is working in Florida.......... I'll just keep passionate about the revival in my church, ........

Thank you and keep praying for lasting fruit that will produce a harvest in your church

timmyb
May 17th 2008, 08:23 PM
Apostasy is a willfull turning from the truth in the saving power of Christ. It is to deny the work of Christ on the Cross and to deny his free gift of salvation...

as far as the revival goes.... where in the Bible do demons heal people? Satan can show false signs and lying wonders... but healings and the casting out of demons? Jesus was very clear about demonic activity not working against itself.

My heart's Desire
May 17th 2008, 11:16 PM
Apostasy is a willfull turning from the truth in the saving power of Christ. It is to deny the work of Christ on the Cross and to deny his free gift of salvation...

as far as the revival goes.... where in the Bible do demons heal people? Satan can show false signs and lying wonders... but healings and the casting out of demons? Jesus was very clear about demonic activity not working against itself.If you are refering to the Scriptures I gave, well that's why I gave them. I'm letting them speak for themselves. I'm not going to add to them except that in the end times, it seems that it will be deception by power, signs and wonders. I'm only saying it will probably be a trend that we may see more and more of as the time draws closer although it is specifically said to be done by the man of lawlessness at that time. Again, that could be a subject for a new thread, not this one.

daughter
May 18th 2008, 09:16 AM
Apostasy is a willfull turning from the truth in the saving power of Christ. It is to deny the work of Christ on the Cross and to deny his free gift of salvation...

as far as the revival goes.... where in the Bible do demons heal people? Satan can show false signs and lying wonders... but healings and the casting out of demons? Jesus was very clear about demonic activity not working against itself.
If someone is afflicted by a demon, that demon can choose to further afflict them by withdrawing for a season, so that you think you're cured, and then it can return. A remission is not the same thing as a healing.

Well, that's one way of looking at it.

I'm not saying that is what is happening here, but it could be, in any healing, unless you know it's the Spirit of God.

And if it's the Spirit of God, then there should be no mistaking it.

I should also point out, that I've seen a healing which was definitely from God. It only worked for a short season, six weeks, but that was long enough for the man to be saved before he died, and to witness to his family. My son had been Christian all of two days when he laid hands on the man in the hospital, and prayed for him.

If this revival is from God, then I'd expect to see that sort of thing... believers going up to those in hospital, laying on hands, and praying for them.

But we should read James, and see what God requires of us as individuals before we can have the Spirit of God move in us. The faithful prayer of a righteous man is effective... God knows if we are righteous, and if we are truly conforming our hearts and minds, giving our bodies as living sacrifices, and being conformed into the image of Christ.

If so, then we can move in the power of the Holy Spirit.

If not, then we're posturing, and our condemnation will be terrible.

If the Holy Spirit moves He purifies where He goes, and scalds out our sin. If that is happening in this "revival", then it is of God.

Funnily enough, before I was Christian, I had always thought revival was something to do with communities becoming Christian. I am surprised that it seems to refer only to a church. Am I missing something? When there were revivals in Ireland, Scotland or Wales, you'd have whole villages falling under the power of the Holy Spirit. Is this happening in this revival? Are whole neighbourhoods turning to Christ?

timmyb
May 18th 2008, 04:34 PM
Well Peter... I have one question for you... Where else can supernatural healing come from? it can't come from Satan... Who else saves souls? Yes, people are being saved at Lakeland as well... Todd gives a salvation message at every meeting and people have responded... i don't know the exact numbers.... Where in this revival are people being turned away from Jesus?

ProjectPeter
May 18th 2008, 04:55 PM
Let's close this one too. Timmy... go ahead and put this same post in that group and we can discuss that in that section. I have sent a group invite to everyone in this thread and the others going about this topic.