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mikebr
May 6th 2008, 09:14 PM
If we as Christians believe that all people deserve hell why do we believe that we should be the first to speak up when people go through hell on earth?

DaveS
May 6th 2008, 10:23 PM
That's kind of like asking, Why do we preach the gospel? If everyone deserves Hell, why not just keep quiet and let them go where they deserve.

Our role is to make known the grace of God, whether by preaching or by defending the oppressed and showing kindness to those who suffer.

jezxy
May 6th 2008, 11:08 PM
Jesus died for us so that people don't deserve hell. That is why we try to save people by passing on the word of God and encourage them to accept Jesus as their saviour. They are just lost sheep and we must try to return them to the flock.

th1bill
May 6th 2008, 11:43 PM
I'm just dumb founded that the question was asked by a Christian.

Reynolds357
May 7th 2008, 12:02 AM
I'm just dumb founded that the question was asked by a Christian.
I fully Agree, this is basic thology.

mikebr
May 7th 2008, 12:06 AM
I'm just dumb founded that the question was asked by a Christian.

;).................................?

Vhayes
May 7th 2008, 12:09 AM
If we as Christians believe that all people deserve hell why do we believe that we should be the first to speak up when people go through hell on earth?
Hi Mikebr - are you saying you don't understand why we share the gospel or are you saying that we, as Christians, should be the last to say, "Well, they got what they deserve"? - Which is not loving OR helpful in my opinion.

mikebr
May 7th 2008, 12:11 AM
That's kind of like asking, Why do we preach the gospel? If everyone deserves Hell, why not just keep quiet and let them go where they deserve.

Our role is to make known the grace of God, whether by preaching or by defending the oppressed and showing kindness to those who suffer.

It honestly sounds like a contradiction to me. I believe that we should do everything possible to keep people out of hell. The reason I believe it is that I don't believe people deserve it.

mikebr
May 7th 2008, 12:12 AM
I fully Agree, this is basic thology.

Which is basic theology; that people deserve hell or that we should preach the gospel?

Reynolds357
May 7th 2008, 12:36 AM
Which is basic theology; that people deserve hell or that we should preach the gospel?
Both would fit the category of basic theology.

little_tigress
May 7th 2008, 12:38 AM
i'm not sure i understand the question. someone goes through a rough period in their lives here on earth so that means we shouldn't say anything to them about their spiritual lives? Isn't during the hardest times of life that people need their Saviour the most?:hmm:

Reynolds357
May 7th 2008, 12:40 AM
It honestly sounds like a contradiction to me. I believe that we should do everything possible to keep people out of hell. The reason I believe it is that I don't believe people deserve it.

I will readily admit that I deserve Hell, so I will use you as an example in this situation. Have you ever sinned? God set the standard to make heaven as perfection. One must live a perfect life to enter into heaven based on his own works. There is no point in even discussing original sin since no person has ever lived life without sin. God set the standard. God is God and He has the authority to define who deserves hell and who does not. God plainly tells us that if we break one of His laws, we have broken the entire law. If you have ever committed one sin, you have committed every sin. You deserve Hell. God, in His grace made provision for us all not to get what we deserve.

Hawkins
May 7th 2008, 01:25 AM
If we as Christians believe that all people deserve hell why do we believe that we should be the first to speak up when people go through hell on earth?

Then we may have to understand the deeper meanings of why we "deserve hell".

1. We sin, continue to sin, have sinned, and have sinned alot.
2. We refuse the New Covenant, we dismiss His crucifixon for sinners salvation

In front of Law, we are the dead already. But in front of His Grace from the covenant, we may still be saved. That's why the Gospel shall be made known, such that more will be saved by His Grace.

MBJ
May 7th 2008, 06:19 AM
The concept of "deserving hell" can be compared with being afflicted with a fatal disease. If I have the same disease, and yet have found a cure for that disease, is it not my responsibility to share it with others who have the same malady?

Yes, we have all sinned. It is grace that brings us into God's arms. That grace does not diminish as we share it with others, but deepens and embraces all people.

Don't worry about having asked a question that many others regard to be ... unnecessary. Take the next step and reach out to those around you who need to know God's love and mercy in their lives.

daughter
May 7th 2008, 06:56 AM
It honestly sounds like a contradiction to me. I believe that we should do everything possible to keep people out of hell. The reason I believe it is that I don't believe people deserve it.So God is unjust?

timmyb
May 7th 2008, 07:03 AM
Which is basic theology; that people deserve hell or that we should preach the gospel?

both... Ephesians 2

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

... this is meant not to insult anyone's intelligence

2Witnesses
May 7th 2008, 08:26 AM
both... Ephesians 2

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

... this is meant not to insult anyone's intelligence


Madoia, or Lama. That means 'Why' in Hebrew. Did God create me to hate some. Do you understand? Is there light and dark?

2Witnesses

mikebr
May 7th 2008, 08:05 PM
So it appears that the majority of those who have responded to my post believe that we all deserve hell. So let me ask this: Do you believe that some people deserve hell more than others or that all deserve hell equally?

For instance does an infant deserve it as much as say Hitler?

timmyb
May 7th 2008, 08:49 PM
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

my answer is yes...

Reynolds357
May 7th 2008, 08:57 PM
So it appears that the majority of those who have responded to my post believe that we all deserve hell. So let me ask this: Do you believe that some people deserve hell more than others or that all deserve hell equally?

For instance does an infant deserve it as much as say Hitler?

By God's standard of righteousness Yes. What you are failing to see is that individual sins are not what send one to hell. All have sinned. All are guilty of breaking the entire law. The sin that sends you to hell is failure to accept the free gift of Salvation through God's son that He so lovingly offered to us. Having said that, an infant has never had the opportunity to make a decision regarding Christ. We know from King David that God makes special provision in His grace for those who die before they reach the mental capacity to make that decision. This is where you see the grace and mercy of a "Just" God. The infant, though it is guilty of origional sin, is extended grace by a provision from our loving, "just" God.

daughter
May 7th 2008, 09:09 PM
So it appears that the majority of those who have responded to my post believe that we all deserve hell. So let me ask this: Do you believe that some people deserve hell more than others or that all deserve hell equally?

For instance does an infant deserve it as much as say Hitler?
Could you answer a question for me... do you think God is unjust?

mikebr
May 7th 2008, 09:12 PM
Could you answer a question for me... do you think God is unjust?


No!...........................What in my post made you think otherwise?

mikebr
May 7th 2008, 09:16 PM
If it would be more just for God to send Hitler to hell than an infant then Hitler and the infant aren't equally deserving of hell. If God is equally just when sending an infant to hell as when He sends Hitlers to hell then we are all equally deserving of hell.

Where do you stand on this?

mikebr
May 7th 2008, 09:19 PM
By God's standard of righteousness Yes. What you are failing to see is that individual sins are not what send one to hell. All have sinned. All are guilty of breaking the entire law. The sin that sends you to hell is failure to accept the free gift of Salvation through God's son that He so lovingly offered to us. Having said that, an infant has never had the opportunity to make a decision regarding Christ. We know from King David that God makes special provision in His grace for those who die before they reach the mental capacity to make that decision. This is where you see the grace and mercy of a "Just" God. The infant, though it is guilty of origional sin, is extended grace by a provision from our loving, "just" God.

Neither has 95% of the people who have ever lived.

BrckBrln
May 7th 2008, 10:16 PM
Neither has 95% of the people who have ever lived.

That sure is a stat from way out in left field. How do you figure that 95% of the people who have ever lived never had the opportunity to come to Christ? Keep in mind for a long time it was God's plan for only the Jewish people to have faith.

mikebr
May 7th 2008, 10:56 PM
That sure is a stat from way out in left field. How do you figure that 95% of the people who have ever lived never had the opportunity to come to Christ? Keep in mind for a long time it was God's plan for only the Jewish people to have faith.

It has been estimated that there have been 50 billion people to have lived on earth. The number of Christians is 2,039 million according to some stats. I haven't actually done the math. Maybe someone can correct me.

BrckBrln
May 8th 2008, 12:35 AM
It has been estimated that there have been 50 billion people to have lived on earth. The number of Christians is 2,039 million according to some stats. I haven't actually done the math. Maybe someone can correct me.

But a lot of those people have had the chance to come to Christ but they rejected him instead. And for all the people who have never heard the gospel well, God will have mercy on whom he choses and if he doesn't then he doesn't.

JordanW
May 8th 2008, 12:50 AM
As Christian's we need to preach the Gospel and let the righteousness of Christ be known!

ARCHER42
May 8th 2008, 01:06 AM
The number of Christians is 2,039 million according to some stats.

Well from what I've learned and from a Biblical perspective there is ONLY ONE PERSON.. who has the PERFECT and CORRECT statistics as far as the 'number' of Christians to have lived.... They are found in HIS BOOK.. It belongs to Jesus Christ and it's the Lamb's Book of Life. :eek::B It baffles me at how man in his finite wisdom and understanding can even attempt to put a number on something that ONLY JESUS CHRIST alone has the authority on.

Brother Mark
May 8th 2008, 01:15 AM
Neither has 95% of the people who have ever lived.

Baloney. Abraham say Jesus day and rejoiced. When someone comes after God, God will reveal his Son to them. The Ehtiopian eunich had Jesus revealed to him. Cornelius had Jesus revealed to him. Both were seeking God and God saw to it to send a missionary. Romans 1 makes it clear that God reveals himself to all of man. If man responds to that revelation, God will send more revelation.

John 9:39-41
39 And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see; and that those who see may become blind." 40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things, and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?" 41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.
NASB

God has no issue blinding a man that refuses the light he sends to him. Jesus has made it clear that the amount of light one receives is what will be used to judge them. It will be easier in the day of judgment for Sodom and Gomorrah than it will be for the cities of Jesus day. Why? Because they would have repented had Jesus works been done in them.

So, the more light one has, if they reject that light, then the judgment is more severe.

My heart's Desire
May 8th 2008, 01:39 AM
Neither has 95% of the people who have ever lived.
The book of Romans says this:
because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen , being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

If one trys to find another reason for creation and created things, that would be a way to not acknowledge evidence of God.

God says people are without excuse.

DaveS
May 8th 2008, 04:06 AM
Originally Posted by daughter
Could you answer a question for me... do you think God is unjust?



No!...........................What in my post made you think otherwise?mike, you said we should do everything we can to keep people from Hell. So you obviously believe that people go there. But you don't believe they deserve it. That would make God unjust. No?

Or do you believe that only SOME people deserve Hell and they are the ones that go there (unless they are saved)? In which case you would have to say that everyone who was ever saved deserved to go to Hell. Otherwise, what were they saved from?

And since some of the most godly people who ever lived were saved people, and those people deserved to go to Hell, why would the rest who were less godly deserve it less?

Or am I way off?

MikeAD
May 8th 2008, 06:06 AM
Ok I understand that not coming to Christ, or acknowledging his sacrafice means hell but I do not understand the jump in logic to people deserve hell.

I don't understand how one can love a God that made a creation that was deserving of hell or how one can say a loving God would create such a thing.

Now I know the likely response is that God made us knowing we deserved hell, that man would fall, but he would later send a sacrafice.
In response, I say why reqiure the sacrafice in the first place? Why make people who deserve hell?

If I accept that we were made knowing that there would later be a sacrafice then we hae all of those who will never meet Christ or never have the chance to make the choice. To this the response to me would be the writings of Paul on the subject, such as God has made himself evident to them and so on.

But if that is true, and there is an alternate path to escape hell, then what would be the point of the sacrafice in the first place?

If
1. People are created deserving hell
2. There is a sacrafice that allows people to escape hell
3. If people don't ever recieve this opportunity then they God will reveal himself through nature etc.

If 2 and 3 are both true, then Heaven will be a very populous place. Only those that specificially get the opportunity to accept Christ's sacrafice would be deserving of hell.




Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.







And totally unrelated to what I just said, I have always found the above scripture (and those like it) to be very interesting. It seems to imply that Christians should not spread the word. If someone doesn't hear the word, then they will be saved through not hearing it? And if that is true, we could just put a child in a room alone for the entirity of his life and he would be saved.

Hawkins
May 8th 2008, 09:31 AM
So it appears that the majority of those who have responded to my post believe that we all deserve hell. So let me ask this: Do you believe that some people deserve hell more than others or that all deserve hell equally?

For instance does an infant deserve it as much as say Hitler?

First, I think that it's said that we are not allowed to judge. Actually, it's impossible for us to judge correctly.

If it's said the lust is a sin, how many "lusts" the infant did to be comparable to killing a man. We never know, so we never know how to weigh. Moreover, only God is capable of judging hearts. So we can never compare the infant's heart with Hitler's.


That said, there's reference in James talking about law, I don't know how it's applicable to your question thou. Yet perhaps it may shed some light on the topic? :confused

James 2:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.


Moreover, I think that if there's no simple measurement for sin committed, there won't be simple logic on why we deserve hell.

daughter
May 8th 2008, 09:46 AM
mike, you said we should do everything we can to keep people from Hell. So you obviously believe that people go there. But you don't believe they deserve it. That would make God unjust. No?

Or do you believe that only SOME people deserve Hell and they are the ones that go there (unless they are saved)? In which case you would have to say that everyone who was ever saved deserved to go to Hell. Otherwise, what were they saved from?

And since some of the most godly people who ever lived were saved people, and those people deserved to go to Hell, why would the rest who were less godly deserve it less?

Or am I way off?
That's how I read it too. Mike, you seem to believe that you have to spread the gospel to stop people from going to hell, but that people don't deserve to go to hell. That would make you more just than God.

I agree, Hitler did far more evil than a baby. That is an extreme example, and scripture does hold out hope for babies (though that will lead to a whole other debate, which if it develops should go into another thread.)

But I didn't do as much harm as Hitler, and I deserve hell. You have no idea how wicked I am - and I never did anything that the world would consider heinously wicked.

I could be wrong, but interpretations of sin would seem to be the root of our different interpretations. You think man is basically good. I think man is basically evil. I think God takes sin so seriously that it requires a death, it requires hell. What do you think sin requires?

Brother Mark
May 8th 2008, 11:27 AM
Ok I understand that not coming to Christ, or acknowledging his sacrafice means hell but I do not understand the jump in logic to people deserve hell.

What we are saying is that the wages of sin is death and death is the lake of fire. One earns the right to go to hell through his sin. All have sinned therefor all have earned hell. They deserve to go there. They have earned it through their sin. But God did not make hell for mankind. He made it for the devil and his angels. Yet, because of sin, man also goes there. But God, in his mercy, provided a way of escape for man that is not available to satan and his hordes.

ProDeo
May 8th 2008, 11:47 AM
God has no issue blinding a man that refuses the light he sends to him. Jesus has made it clear that the amount of light one receives is what will be used to judge them. It will be easier in the day of judgment for Sodom and Gomorrah than it will be for the cities of Jesus day. Why? Because they would have repented had Jesus works been done in them.

So, the more light one has, if they reject that light, then the judgment is more severe.

I also believe that to be true. Although being 30+ years ago I remember my unbeliever state of mind very well, although having almost zero knowledge of the Bible there was always this little voice in my head that said, "You won't be thrown in hell for your unbelief but for your unwillingness to take time and research as your prefer to enjoy life above that". I knew very well if there was a God after all I would be without any excuse.

When we testify the Gospel to unbelievers we automatically make them subject to God's judgement.

Ed

ForChrist
May 8th 2008, 01:08 PM
Romans 6:23


23 For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.




All sin is in rebellion against God. Sin makes us deserving of hell. We don't have to go there, though. The answer is Jesus Christ.

mikebr
May 8th 2008, 01:34 PM
mike, you said we should do everything we can to keep people from Hell. So you obviously believe that people go there. But you don't believe they deserve it. That would make God unjust. No?

Or do you believe that only SOME people deserve Hell and they are the ones that go there (unless they are saved)? In which case you would have to say that everyone who was ever saved deserved to go to Hell. Otherwise, what were they saved from?

And since some of the most godly people who ever lived were saved people, and those people deserved to go to Hell, why would the rest who were less godly deserve it less?

Or am I way off?

CS Lewis believed that the doors of hell were locked from the inside. That people actually made a conscious decision to go there. Read "The Great Divorce." Its pretty much how I see things. Most would say, unless you are of the Reformed nature, that God never sends people to hell. If those of you reading this are Calvinists then it pretty much explains our differences and I don't suspect we will come to any agreements too soon. I am not a Calvinist nor an Armenian.

mikebr
May 8th 2008, 01:39 PM
That's how I read it too. Mike, you seem to believe that you have to spread the gospel to stop people from going to hell, but that people don't deserve to go to hell. That would make you more just than God.

I agree, Hitler did far more evil than a baby. That is an extreme example, and scripture does hold out hope for babies (though that will lead to a whole other debate, which if it develops should go into another thread.)

But I didn't do as much harm as Hitler, and I deserve hell. You have no idea how wicked I am - and I never did anything that the world would consider heinously wicked.

I could be wrong, but interpretations of sin would seem to be the root of our different interpretations. You think man is basically good. I think man is basically evil. I think God takes sin so seriously that it requires a death, it requires hell. What do you think sin requires?

I may have a skewed sense of judgment (I'm sure you think I do) but not giving someone what they deserve seems unjust to me. If my kid deserves to be punished and I don't punish him is that just?

Brother Mark
May 8th 2008, 01:54 PM
I may have a skewed sense of judgment (I'm sure you think I do) but not giving someone what they deserve seems unjust to me. If my kid deserves to be punished and I don't punish him is that just?

But let's clarify the difference between chastisement/discipline and punishment. Eternal punishment is not doled out to God's children. It is doled out to those that hate him. While he disciplines his children.

So, when we hated God and deserved punishment, he revealed that to us. We begged for mercy and God, in his righteous judgment, sent Christ to be punished in our stead. Since I am now in Christ, my punishment was also put on me because I was crucified with Him. We see both mercy and grace active in this.

But he still disciplines me. As for the unbeliever, since he is not in Christ, he will get eternal punishment which is what he deserves. For me, while deserving punishment, God reconciled me to himself and I was forgiven. My punishment was pardoned in an act of mercy. God's justice was satisfied through Christ.

Thank God he is just. Thank God, he is not fair. If he were fair, we would all be doomed to hell.

seamus414
May 8th 2008, 02:03 PM
If we as Christians believe that all people deserve hell why do we believe that we should be the first to speak up when people go through hell on earth?

Origional sin, due to the fall of man in the Garden of Eden, has caused humans to have the taint of sin on their soul. Consequently, this sinful taint renderes all human beings to be deserved of damnation at the moment of their conception as no sin is permitted in God's devine presence - which is where we all want to be when we pass from this life to the next. This is among the most basic of Christian dogmas.

DaveS
May 8th 2008, 02:15 PM
CS Lewis believed that the doors of hell were locked from the inside. That people actually made a conscious decision to go there. Read "The Great Divorce." Its pretty much how I see things. Most would say, unless you are of the Reformed nature, that God never sends people to hell. If those of you reading this are Calvinists then it pretty much explains our differences and I don't suspect we will come to any agreements too soon. I am not a Calvinist nor an Armenian.I can't speak for anyone else but this is something you and I have in common. I am neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian.

But the depravity of mankind is not the intellectual property of the Calvinist any more than the deity of Christ is of the Catholic.

As for only the Reformed holding that God sends people to Hell I would argue that that view originates from Scripture regardless of who does or doesn't hold it.

Eze 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit:

Lu 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

Mt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I won't pile on the verses here but the point is that none of these depict a willing soul knocking on the doors of Hell and requesting entrance. These people are "thrust", "gathered" and "cast" into Hell by God Himself or by His angels at His direct command.

God does in fact 'send' people to Hell. Or so it would seem from these and many other Scriptures.

mikebr
May 8th 2008, 02:36 PM
Origional sin, due to the fall of man in the Garden of Eden, has caused humans to have the taint of sin on their soul. Consequently, this sinful taint renderes all human beings to be deserved of damnation at the moment of their conception as no sin is permitted in God's devine presence - which is where we all want to be when we pass from this life to the next. This is among the most basic of Christian dogmas.
So I deserve to burn for eternity for something that I inherited from Adam.

The Village Idiot
May 8th 2008, 03:11 PM
If we believe in hell, why shouldn't we be the first to speak up when people go through hell on earth? The homeless of Amerika come to mind--to say nothing of Darfur, the DR Congo, Chad, Iraq and even occupied Palestine. Back in Amerika, we can produce an endless supply of munitions, but we can't have universal health care (paid not to government but to private practices). Why is that?

You get the impression that "hell" in the next life counts for an hell of a lot more than hell in this life. And I agree. The problem is--hell in this life appears to amount to very little. Some consider this to be a part of an evangelical theology. I tend to see it as Gnostic blasphemy. Perhaps if we were more incarnational in the face of hell on earth, we might have a little more credibility when we speak about the next stop.

MikeAD
May 8th 2008, 03:20 PM
If we believe in hell, why shouldn't we be the first to speak up when people go through hell on earth? The homeless of Amerika come to mind--to say nothing of Darfur, the DR Congo, Chad, Iraq and even occupied Palestine. Back in Amerika, we can produce an endless supply of munitions, but we can't have universal health care (paid not to government but to private practices). Why is that?

You get the impression that "hell" in the next life counts for an hell of a lot more than hell in this life. And I agree. The problem is--hell in this life appears to amount to very little. Some consider this to be a part of an evangelical theology. I tend to see it as Gnostic blasphemy. Perhaps if we were more incarnational in the face of hell on earth, we might have a little more credibility when we speak about the next stop.

Well if you are discussing the theory that I think you are then I will continue (forgive me if I misunderstand). Many find it beyond unfathomable for God to allow those who experience the most ammount of suffering on this earth to then go to an afterlife of eternal suffering and torment. Further it is unreasonable to many that those who died in the Holocaust should remain in torture for all of time side-by-side with the man that is responsible for their death and torture. But on the typical Christian view, it is unclear how these Jews who died could not be torture forever, for eternity in agony and pain.

I just don't buy it.

Reynolds357
May 8th 2008, 03:40 PM
So I deserve to burn for eternity for something that I inherited from Adam.

If you believe that God is Just, you deserve what He says you deserve.
You are throwing out the argument of the Jehovah's witnesses point for point. I have debated many from the Watch Tower. You are simply posting the points from their conversion manuals with alteration of the words. You are posting thought for thought their argument on hell.
The problem is that the only way you can defend this doctrine is to use their Bible. You can defend annihilation from the Watchtower's Bible, but not from an accurate translation.
You are trying to make rationalle replace scripture. The scripture says what it says. It does not matter if we do or do not like what it says.

Reynolds357
May 8th 2008, 03:44 PM
Well if you are discussing the theory that I think you are then I will continue (forgive me if I misunderstand). Many find it beyond unfathomable for God to allow those who experience the most ammount of suffering on this earth to then go to an afterlife of eternal suffering and torment. Further it is unreasonable to many that those who died in the Holocaust should remain in torture for all of time side-by-side with the man that is responsible for their death and torture. But on the typical Christian view, it is unclear how these Jews who died could not be torture forever, for eternity in agony and pain.

I just don't buy it.

Are you saying James is wrong when he says that if you offend in one area of the law, you are guilty of the violation of the entire law?
Is James wrong, or is he correct?
If he is correct, which he is, your above stated premise is meaningless in the light of what he told us. You are trying to let the wisdom of man override the Wisdom of God. It simply does not work.

MikeAD
May 8th 2008, 03:57 PM
Are you saying James is wrong when he says that if you offend in one area of the law, you are guilty of the violation of the entire law?
Is James wrong, or is he correct?
If he is correct, which he is, your above stated premise is meaningless in the light of what he told us. You are trying to let the wisdom of man override the Wisdom of God. It simply does not work.

I am not trying to let the Wisdom of man override the wisdom of God, that is ubsurd. I find it extremely disheartening that a just God would put Hitler in Hell and those he killed in Hell.

And yes, I do believe in what James said:


2:14What good is it, my brothers, if a man says he has faith, but has no works? Can faith save him? 2:15And if a brother or sister is naked and in lack of daily food, 2:16and one of you tells them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled;" and yet you didn't give them the things the body needs, what good is it? 2:17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead in itself. 2:18Yes, a man will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 2:19You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also believe, and shudder. 2:20But do you want to know, vain man, that faith apart from works is dead? 2:21Wasn't Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 2:22You see that faith worked with his works, and by works faith was perfected; 2:23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness;" and he was called the friend of God. 2:24You see then that by works, a man is justified, and not only by faith. 2:25In like manner wasn't Rahab the prostitute also justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way? 2:26For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.

Works over faith leads to a wide variety of salvation. Show yoru faith throgh your works.

But maybe if I listen to James I am putting the wisdom of man over the wisdom of God?

"Listen, my beloved brothers. Didn't God choose those who are poor in this world to be rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he promised to those who love him?"

I think suffering in this world can equal salvation.

BrckBrln
May 8th 2008, 04:48 PM
So I deserve to burn for eternity for something that I inherited from Adam.

Yes. But the good news is there was a last Adam.

And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:45

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22

It's something called Federal Headship. Adam, in the Garden of Eden, was representative of the whole human race after him. As you know he failed but don't go blaming Adam because none of us would have done any better. Adam was made near perfect and he still fell.

Anyway, then Christ came to act as another, the last, federal head for all who have faith in Him. Therefore if you don't believe you deserve Hell for something Adam did then there is no way you can see Heaven for something Christ did. Do you understand?

daughter
May 8th 2008, 04:53 PM
So I deserve to burn for eternity for something that I inherited from Adam.
Yes. Isn't God wicked?

seamus414
May 8th 2008, 06:03 PM
So I deserve to burn for eternity for something that I inherited from Adam.

Well, of course origional sin is the most basis reason for humanity's depravity. There is also, of course, actual sin that everyone commits over the course of his/her life that further causes seperation from God. That, too, deserves just payment.

Reynolds357
May 8th 2008, 06:43 PM
I am not trying to let the Wisdom of man override the wisdom of God, that is ubsurd. I find it extremely disheartening that a just God would put Hitler in Hell and those he killed in Hell.

And yes, I do believe in what James said:


2:14What good is it, my brothers, if a man says he has faith, but has no works? Can faith save him? 2:15And if a brother or sister is naked and in lack of daily food, 2:16and one of you tells them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled;" and yet you didn't give them the things the body needs, what good is it? 2:17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead in itself. 2:18Yes, a man will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 2:19You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also believe, and shudder. 2:20But do you want to know, vain man, that faith apart from works is dead? 2:21Wasn't Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 2:22You see that faith worked with his works, and by works faith was perfected; 2:23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness;" and he was called the friend of God. 2:24You see then that by works, a man is justified, and not only by faith. 2:25In like manner wasn't Rahab the prostitute also justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way? 2:26For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.

Works over faith leads to a wide variety of salvation. Show yoru faith throgh your works.

But maybe if I listen to James I am putting the wisdom of man over the wisdom of God?

"Listen, my beloved brothers. Didn't God choose those who are poor in this world to be rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he promised to those who love him?"

I think suffering in this world can equal salvation.

You think suffering in this world can equal salvation? That simply is not scriptural. Jesus gave us the path to salvation. The only suffering in the equation is the suffering He did at the Cross.

Are you making the inference that the book of James is not the inspired word of God?

DaveS
May 8th 2008, 07:09 PM
"Listen, my beloved brothers. Didn't God choose those who are poor in this world to be rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he promised to those who love him?"

I think suffering in this world can equal salvation.Hi Mike. There is a parallel passage to the one you've quoted above in I.Corinthians chapter 1 that explains this truth in more detail.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
...
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
...
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

It isn't that being poor or downtrodden in itself qualifies one for salvation. It's that God has chosen a means of salvation that seems foolish and weak to the world. The preaching of the cross is foolishness to the "wise" of this world, and weakness to the "mighty" of this world.

But God chose this "weak" and "foolish" way of salvation to attract the "weak" and "foolish" (folks like me, praise God), and to confound the "mighty" and "wise".

As James also said,

Jas 4:6 ...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

If you look at the verse you quoted you'll notice that being poor doesn't do it, but it's the poor who are "rich in faith" that inherit the kingdom of God.

MikeAD
May 8th 2008, 09:18 PM
Hi Mike. There is a parallel passage to the one you've quoted above in I.Corinthians chapter 1 that explains this truth in more detail.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
...
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
...
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

It isn't that being poor or downtrodden in itself qualifies one for salvation. It's that God has chosen a means of salvation that seems foolish and weak to the world. The preaching of the cross is foolishness to the "wise" of this world, and weakness to the "mighty" of this world.

But God chose this "weak" and "foolish" way of salvation to attract the "weak" and "foolish" (folks like me, praise God), and to confound the "mighty" and "wise".

As James also said,

Jas 4:6 ...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

If you look at the verse you quoted you'll notice that being poor doesn't do it, but it's the poor who are "rich in faith" that inherit the kingdom of God.

Thank you, I really wasn't trying to be difficult, just looking for answers. This is a good start.