PDA

View Full Version : Jerusalem Post: Rabbis call Christianity a cult



RevLogos
May 7th 2008, 04:33 AM
As part of the 60 year celebration of existence, one of the events in Israel is a Bible quiz for young Jews. One of the finalists is a young girl who is a Messianic Jew.

This has lead to protests from the chief Rabbis. There are calls to disqualify the girl or boycott or cancel the quiz. The Rabbis wrote:


"It is unacceptable that a member of a cult that has removed itself from the Jewish faith will take part in a quiz dedicated to a book that has been holy to the Jews since their inception as a people."The Jerusalem Post article is here:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1209627027490&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

I understand of course Jews disagree with Christians. But a cult? Is this how Jews see Christians? It saddens me to see such harsh rhetoric.

Roelof
May 7th 2008, 12:30 PM
This is very sad, because Christians never said bad words to Jews for not accepting Christ as their Saviour. It only shows the deep division between two main stream religions.

Firstfruits
May 7th 2008, 01:56 PM
As part of the 60 year celebration of existence, one of the events in Israel is a Bible quiz for young Jews. One of the finalists is a young girl who is a Messianic Jew.

This has lead to protests from the chief Rabbis. There are calls to disqualify the girl or boycott or cancel the quiz. The Rabbis wrote:
The Jerusalem Post article is here:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1209627027490&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

I understand of course Jews disagree with Christians. But a cult? Is this how Jews see Christians? It saddens me to see such harsh rhetoric.

Truly the word of God is being fulfilled, let us hope that their eyes are opened before it is too late, as we know only a remnant shall be saved of Israel.

Rom 10:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Rom 10:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Rom 11:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

Rom 11:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Rom 11:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Firstfruits
May 7th 2008, 02:02 PM
This is very sad, because Christians never said bad words to Jews for not accepting Christ as their Saviour. It only shows the deep division between two main stream religions.

Do they therefore not acknowledge what Jesus accomplished at the cross?

Eph 2:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

If they seek peace why do they not accept what Christ has done?

diffangle
May 7th 2008, 02:03 PM
This is very sad, because Christians never said bad words to Jews for not accepting Christ as their Saviour. It only shows the deep division between two main stream religions.
That's not necessarily true, the Catholic church doctrine taught that the Jews were the killers of Yahushua up until recent times.

David Taylor
May 7th 2008, 02:13 PM
I understand of course Jews disagree with Christians. But a cult? Is this how Jews see Christians? It saddens me to see such harsh rhetoric.


Technically, from a Judaism perspective, Christianity is a cult.

'Cult' meaning an offshoot viewpoint that differs significantly in several areas from the original viewpoint.

Christianity has alot of offshoot beliefs from Judaism. In this case, however, the original was flawed (for rejecting the Messiah), and the offshoot cult (Christianity) was correct for accepting Messiah, and shouting Him from the tops of the mountains and throughout the world for the last 2000 years.

Firstfruits
May 7th 2008, 02:32 PM
Technically, from a Judaism perspective, Christianity is a cult.

'Cult' meaning an offshoot viewpoint that differs significantly in several areas from the original viewpoint.

Christianity has alot of offshoot beliefs from Judaism. In this case, however, the original was flawed (for rejecting the Messiah), and the offshoot cult (Christianity) was correct for accepting Messiah, and shouting Him from the tops of the mountains and throughout the world for the last 2000 years.

Is that therefore where this applies?

Rom 10:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Revinius
May 7th 2008, 06:30 PM
So much for being a light unto the world

Rullion Green
May 7th 2008, 06:39 PM
This is very sad, because Christians never said bad words to Jews for not accepting Christ as their Saviour. It only shows the deep division between two main stream religions.


This is a delicate subject, you have to understand what the Jewish people have been through with the persicution and forced conversions. We should be praying for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. We are enjoying the fact the we know the Jewsih Messiah and have salvation while they the chosen people are blinded to their own Messiah. Sad indeed

Naphal
May 10th 2008, 07:11 AM
That's not necessarily true, the Catholic church doctrine taught that the Jews were the killers of Yahushua up until recent times.

I wonder why they taught that.


John 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

John 7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.




Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Acts 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Acts 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

diffangle
May 10th 2008, 01:05 PM
I wonder why they taught that.


John 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

John 7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.




Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Acts 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Acts 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Don't get me wrong, the Jews played a part in His death but so did the gentiles, the gentiles were the ones that physically carried it out, also He died for every one of us... so if you want to get technical... we all killed Him(since we're all sinners). But ultimately remember, no man taketh His life from Him...

Jhn 10:18 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=10&v=18&t=KJV#18) No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of My Father.

So trying to put the blame solely on the Jews is just plain wrong.

Athanasius
May 10th 2008, 02:26 PM
This is very sad, because Christians never said bad words to Jews for not accepting Christ as their Saviour. It only shows the deep division between two main stream religions.

Hrrrm... We only, 'historically', accused them of Deicide (killing God) and having to drink the blood of 'Christian' babies to make themselves 'whole, pure', whatever other garbage.

Revinius
May 10th 2008, 08:39 PM
Yeah bad things have been done to both. Thats the nature of humans doing/saying stupid human things to other humans. We all know that so lets move on. :D

Naphal
May 10th 2008, 08:45 PM
Don't get me wrong, the Jews played a part in His death but so did the gentiles, the gentiles were the ones that physically carried it out, also He died for every one of us... so if you want to get technical... we all killed Him(since we're all sinners). But ultimately remember, no man taketh His life from Him...

Jhn 10:18 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=10&v=18&t=KJV#18) No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of My Father.

So trying to put the blame solely on the Jews is just plain wrong.

Solely? It would be inaccurate but you said:


That's not necessarily true, the Catholic church doctrine taught that the Jews were the killers of Yahushua up until recent times.

Suggesting that it was wrong to even implicate the Jews as being any part of the death of Christ and well, the scriptures make it clear they did kill him. It lays more blame on them than anyone and rightly so. Yes, no one could have killed him had he chosen not to come and be born, but that's a side issue. The Jews did everything but do the actual killing but this equals killing just as much as the hands that were bloodied in the act, even moreso in this case.

diffangle
May 10th 2008, 09:11 PM
Suggesting that it was wrong to even implicate the Jews as being any part of the death of Christ and well, the scriptures make it clear they did kill him. It lays more blame on them than anyone and rightly so.

It's wrong to try and pin it on to one race of people, the Scriptures make it clear that it was a joint effort(of Jew and gentile) in the crucifixtion of Yahushua and that it was b/c of our(both Jew and gentile) sin.


Yes, no one could have killed him had he chosen not to come and be born, but that's a side issue.
It's not a side issue, He explicity states that no man(that includes the Jews) takes His life from Him but that He lays it down Himself.


The Jews did everything but do the actual killing but this equals killing just as much as the hands that were bloodied in the act, even moreso in this case.
If the gentiles didn't beat and crucify Him... He wouldn't have died... the Jews weren't going to kill Him themselves... it took two to tango in this case... no one is less guilty than the other.

Naphal
May 10th 2008, 10:26 PM
It's wrong to try and pin it on to one race of people, the Scriptures make it clear that it was a joint effort(of Jew and gentile) in the crucifixtion of Yahushua and that it was b/c of our(both Jew and gentile) sin.

And I think it's wrong to not acknowledge the main part the Jews had in it. The gentiles would never have killed him without the Jews forcing their hand. That's all, this is about a fair and full view of what occurred. The original quote made it seem like it was a Catholic lie or something.

diffangle
May 10th 2008, 11:57 PM
And I think it's wrong to not acknowledge the main part the Jews had in it.
Where does the Scripture say they were the "main" part?

Mat 27
27 Then the soldiers(gentiles, not Jews) of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers.
28 And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.
29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
30 And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head. 31 And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.

35 And they(the gentiles) crucified Him


The gentiles would never have killed him without the Jews forcing their hand.
And the Jews wouldn't have killed Him without the gentiles...

Jhn 18:31 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=18&verse=31&version=kjv#31) Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye Him, and judge Him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:




That's all, this is about a fair and full view of what occurred. The original quote made it seem like it was a Catholic lie or something.

So you think it's fair that the Catholic church singled out and demonized a race of people by denying the hand that all of us(Jew and gentile) had in His death? :hmm:

Naphal
May 11th 2008, 12:12 AM
Where does the Scripture say they were the "main" part?

The entire thing does. The Romans had no reason to kill him and didn't even want to. It was always the Jews that wanted and got him to be killed.





And the Jews wouldn't have killed Him without the gentiles...

Jhn 18:31 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=18&verse=31&version=kjv#31) Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye Him, and judge Him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:



That's why they used the Romans.





So you think it's fair that the Catholic church singled out and demonized a race of people by denying the hand that all of us(Jew and gentile) had in His death? :hmm:

Yes although it is not as much about race than religion as Christ was a Jew and so were his followers. There is a difference between him dying for those who weren't even alive and those that murdered him.

pinky
May 13th 2008, 11:11 AM
Jhn 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.

Jerome1
May 13th 2008, 11:28 AM
All branches of christendom have a history of being somewhat antisemitic at times, not just Catholicism. Wasn't Martin Luther slated for bing very antisemitic?


So you think it's fair that the Catholic church singled out and demonized a race of people by denying the hand that all of us(Jew and gentile) had in His death?

Both Jews and gentiles did have a hand in Christs death, hostility still exists between Judaism and christianity, it isn't just one way traffic.

The Jews also rejected the New Testament at the Council of Jamnia.

diffangle
May 13th 2008, 02:39 PM
Jhn 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.
So as long as we're into playing the blame game... should we be blaming the power from above? It really is sad that we can't admit that it is all of our sins that put Him to death.

pinky
May 13th 2008, 03:19 PM
Yes, Jesus gave His life so that we may live.

However, my NT demonstrates that the religious leaders plotted to have Him killed.

Mat 21:38 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat021.html#38) But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.


Luk 22:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk022.html#2) And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.


Jhn 5:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn005.html#18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


Jhn 7:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn007.html#1) After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.


1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.


I'll believe what my NT says, even if it is not politically correct.

diffangle
May 13th 2008, 03:44 PM
However, my NT demonstrates that the religious leaders plotted to have Him killed.


Your NT also says that He gave His life. The religious leaders plot was part of the plan so that our sins could be atoned for. Why villianize all Jews of all times for the actions of some religious leaders that lived 2000 years ago? Idk, maybe we should be a little more forgiving for the religious leaders part, Yahushua seemed to view it that way, look at how He rebukes Peter for trying to interfere with what had to take place...

Mat 16:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=16&verse=21&version=kjv#21) ¶From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto His disciples, how that He must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Mat 16:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=16&verse=22&version=kjv#22) Then Peter took Him, and began to rebuke Him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto Thee.

Mat 16:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=16&verse=23&version=kjv#23) But He turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind Me, Satan: thou art an offence unto Me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

pinky
May 13th 2008, 07:25 PM
Your NT also says that He gave His life.


Yes indeed.



The religious leaders plot was part of the plan so that our sins could be atoned for.


Yes, I agree.



Why villianize all Jews of all times for the actions of some religious leaders that lived 2000 years ago?


I didn't notice anyone in this thread doing that. Maybe I overlooked it??



Idk, maybe we should be a little more forgiving for the religious leaders part


Absolutely, we should have a heart to forgive them. I don't argue against that at all. Not at all.

I guess what I don't understand is why we as Christians can't state some simple truths about what our NT says?

Why is it if we say that Jewish religious leaders wanted to kill Jesus, or plotted to kill Him, or tried Him unjustly, or pressured Pilate, or cried out to crucify Him..........why is this construed as a hateful blame game?

Is this what the NT says? Yes or no?

Yes, the Romans are the ones who carried out the physical act of crucifying Jesus.
However, did the Romans hate Jesus or WANT to kill Him?
No.

Did the 'common' Jewish people hate Jesus or WANT to kill Him?
No. At least not from anything I have read in the NT.


Did the religious leaders hate Jesus or WANT to kill Him?
Yes.

Who did Jesus specifically call vipers, serpents, children of satan?
Romans? No.
The Jewish people? No.
The religious leaders? ........um....... yes.


Peace,
pinky

Gulah Papyrus
May 13th 2008, 07:38 PM
I think we have all had a hand in killing Jesus...it was the sin of man that killed Him. To hold any one person or group of people responsible is absurd. Are you a sinner? Then you must share in the responsibility.

pinky
May 13th 2008, 08:55 PM
To hold any one person or group of people responsible is absurd.

So...... are you saying that the NT verses that I read in my Bible that say Jewish religious leaders killed Jesus and are His 'murderers'.......... that these verses are absurd?

Peace,
pinky

Brother Mark
May 13th 2008, 09:18 PM
So...... are you saying that the NT verses that I read in my Bible that say Jewish religious leaders killed Jesus and are His 'murderers'.......... that these verses are absurd?

Peace,
pinky

Might as well throw the Romans in there too. Pilate was held accountable by Jesus even though Jesus said another had a greater sin.

I think it most important to understand it wasn't so much the Jews that killed Jesus, as it was the religious crowd that killed him. We can see the same thing going on in some of today's churches!

Naphal
May 13th 2008, 09:35 PM
So as long as we're into playing the blame game... should we be blaming the power from above? It really is sad that we can't admit that it is all of our sins that put Him to death.

There is a huge and very important difference between Christ willingly dying for all and those that plotted to criminally murder him (using the Romans as their pawns).

Just saying were all responsible is not good enough.

Gulah Papyrus
May 13th 2008, 09:36 PM
So...... are you saying that the NT verses that I read in my Bible that say Jewish religious leaders killed Jesus and are His 'murderers'.......... that these verses are absurd?

Peace,
pinkyOf course not, I am saying that they didn't kill Him because they were Jewish, they killed Him because they were sinners. Jesus' blood is on all of our hands. Sin killed Jesus...and then Jesus killed sin!!:pp

diffangle
May 13th 2008, 09:42 PM
There is a huge and very important difference between Christ willingly dying for all and those that plotted to criminally murder him (using the Romans as their pawns).

Just saying were all responsible is not good enough.
I disagree, how else would you propose His life to have been given?

diffangle
May 13th 2008, 09:46 PM
Of course not, I am saying that they didn't kill Him because they were Jewish, they killed Him because they were sinners. Jesus' blood is on all of our hands. Sin killed Jesus...and the Jesus killed sin!!:pp
That's what I've been trying to point out(it's our sin that ultimately killed Him), so when the Catholic church in the past made it a point to teach as if blame could be put solely on a race, it led to a sort of justification for persecuting Jewish people.

Naphal
May 13th 2008, 09:49 PM
I think we have all had a hand in killing Jesus...it was the sin of man that killed Him.

No, that didn't kill him. The abuse and nails et al killed him. The reason why he came willingly to die is for our sins. That's an important difference that is being overlooked.

Naphal
May 13th 2008, 09:51 PM
I disagree, how else would you propose His life to have been given?


It was given the way it was but that doesn't mean were all guilty of murder like the Jews were.

pinky
May 13th 2008, 09:51 PM
There is a huge and very important difference between Christ willingly dying for all and those that plotted to criminally murder him (using the Romans as their pawns).


I agree.

If someone gives their life out of love to save yours, does that mean you killed that person?


If you plan, conspire and act to carry out taking someone's life, is that not premeditated murder?


Is there a difference? I think so.

diffangle
May 13th 2008, 09:58 PM
No, that didn't kill him. The abuse and nails et al killed him.

Ah... so the actions of the Romans iow. ;)

diffangle
May 13th 2008, 10:01 PM
If you plan, conspire and act to carry out taking someone's life, is that not premeditated murder?


Is there a difference? I think so.
The carrying out was done by the Romans. How else would you see His death be carried out? He seemed pretty adament about it going down exactly the way it happened judging by the way He rebuked Peter.

Gulah Papyrus
May 13th 2008, 10:01 PM
Bullets don't kill people, people kill people.

All murder is perpetuated by sin. If there is no sin, there is no murder. Were it not for our sin, Jesus would not have had to die, therefore our sin, yours and mine, is responsible for Jesus' death.

The fact that his murderers happened to be Jewish is beside the point.

Naphal
May 13th 2008, 10:37 PM
Ah... so the actions of the Romans iow. ;)

Yes. The action of the Romans due to the actions and murderous desire of the Jews:


Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Acts 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Acts 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Naphal
May 13th 2008, 10:39 PM
The fact that his murderers happened to be Jewish is beside the point.

It's not beside the point, it is the point :)

Who murdered Jesus? The Jews. How did they accomplish this murder? By using the Romans to carry out a crucifixion for the Jews and at the request of the Jews through the use of false accusation and lying witnesses.


Matthew 26:59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;

Brother Mark
May 13th 2008, 11:02 PM
It was given the way it was but that doesn't mean were all guilty of murder like the Jews were.

I would change that to the religious crowd. There were Jews that didn't want him to die and were innocent of his murder. Also, Pilot was counted guilty by Jesus as well.

John 19:11

11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
KJV

I agree that only those present were guilty of murder, we all do share in his death. Had Adam not sinned, Christ death would not have been necessary. But this present generation will not stand before the judgment for the murder of Christ.

Naphal
May 13th 2008, 11:41 PM
I would change that to the religious crowd. There were Jews that didn't want him to die and were innocent of his murder.


I can't change it because that's what is written but certainly the bible isn't saying every single Jew was to blame...but a great many were and scripture tends to lay guilt on all the refused to receive the Messiah.




I agree that only those present were guilty of murder, we all do share in his death.



We share in it and are blessed by it but we are not guilty of his murder. We are guilty of our own sins and he came willingly to die for us. We did not force him, especially not in the criminal sense of it.




Had Adam not sinned, Christ death would not have been necessary.

It still would have been since someone else would have sinned.

Toymom
May 14th 2008, 03:02 AM
they are calling Messianic Judaism a cult. Did you read the article?
And as far as name calling and prejudice, while some Christians have been and are kind to the Jews, many Christians - probably a majority of them, have been and continue to be prejudiced against the Jewish people. It is a fact of life. Jews don't have any problem with Christians as long as the Christians leave them alone and don't try to convert them to Christianity. They see Messianic Judaism as a cult because they are trying to claim to be both Jewish and Christian and they are trying to convince Jews to believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

BibleGirl02
Jun 3rd 2008, 11:37 PM
How dumb. Christianity is hardly a cult. Christianity is a well established religion that has existed for the past nearly 2,000 years. :)

Jesusinmyheart
Jun 4th 2008, 02:37 AM
That's right the rabbis fear and dislike Messianic Jews more than any other group, because they believe as Jews do that the Law is still valid as ever, but yet they also believe in Yeshua as the messiah, and to them that is dirtying their religion.

It's the same age old problem that first arose in the times after the death of Yeshua, that followers of Yeshua followed the Torah and believed Yeshua to be the Messiah. There were many for, and as many against this idea because those who did not see who Yeshua was, simply were figuring the apostles were apostasizing and deviating from the truth of the scriptures.

There are places in the Nt where these same folks stirred trouble in the new congregation saying that unless one was circumcised one could not inherit the covenant promises.
They couldn't see that circumcision of the heart must come first, and that it takes time.

Shalom,
Tanja

ChristianKnight
Jun 10th 2008, 12:39 PM
No offense but they are one to be calling us a cult...

angelus5370
Jun 18th 2008, 04:59 PM
That's not necessarily true, the Catholic church doctrine taught that the Jews were the killers of Yahushua up until recent times.
The magic word here is CATHOLIC CHURCH! Christians love the Jews, and do not blame them for killing Christ, the catholic church is a different ball game altogether.

Revinius
Jun 19th 2008, 05:39 AM
The magic word here is CATHOLIC CHURCH! Christians love the Jews, and do not blame them for killing Christ, the catholic church is a different ball game altogether.

We love them as we love all peoples, but they did kill their Messiah (we all did) and those who do not accept Him will be judged for that.