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VerticalReality
May 7th 2008, 12:58 PM
I figured this would be an interesting discussion to dive into. You hear many preachers today speak about how God's wrath has subsided because of what Jesus Christ did on the cross and that He no longer pours out His wrath or judges the wicked.

I personally do not believe this, but I would be interested to see what others believe on this topic.

This topic sparked my interest because of a biography program I watched on a very controversial and infamous atheist who eventually left this world via very undesirable circumstances.

Opinions?

Rullion Green
May 7th 2008, 01:14 PM
I'm with you...

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him (John 3:36)

pretty much says it all for me.

who was the athiest and what was the topic it sounds interesting ?

Rullion Green
May 7th 2008, 01:57 PM
Its a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Hebrews 10:31)

If only they would listen to the word of God. Some people will never accept it but in the end they will see its no joke !

man that brought Hebrews 10:31 alive !

ARCHER42
May 7th 2008, 06:28 PM
Obviously that TV program was in err..... God is the same today yesterday and forever.... He does not change and YES He still judges the wicked and pours out His wrath as He sees it. He is Soveriegn and in control of all things. God the Father didn't change or back off as far as His judgements or wrath against the wicked because of the Cross.

For true believers there is 'chastisement' as a Christian... not 'wrath' As a father or mother chastises their children so God chastens those whom He recieves and loves. It's done so that the peaceable fruits of righteousness may be shown or yielded as that person continues their walk with Him.

The Scriputre refers to 'vessels' of wrath and 'vessels' of mercy.. these folks, are not 'tableware' you put on your kitchen table.. they are individuals. God endures with much longsuffering the 'vessels' of wrath. He could wipe them all out in the twinkling of an eye if He wanted.. He endures with much longsuffering these 'vessels' of wrath so that He might make known the riches of His glory upon the 'vessels' of mercy which He knew even before the foundation of this world.

If you peer into the Book of Revelation and look at the 'hour of temptation' that is to come upon the earth.. His wrath during this time is not held back or reduced.. It actually grows... culminating in the physical return of Jesus the Christ.

The Cross is the substitute wrath for the 'believer'... God laid the wrath that a lost unsaved sinner was to partake in , upon Jesus the Christ. He 'took' that for His children. It is Justification, Righteousness, Salvation, Redemption, and a Shelter for those that are Saved. For the unbelieveing its a stumblingblock or just downright foolishness. God's wrath still is upon them even though He went to the Cross.

VerticalReality
May 7th 2008, 06:34 PM
Obviously that TV program was in err..... God is the same today yesterday and forever.... He does not change and YES He still judges the wicked and pours out His wrath as He sees it. He is Soveriegn and in control of all things. God the Father didn't change or back off as far as His judgements or wrath against the wicked because of the Cross.

For true believers there is 'chastisement' as a Christian... not 'wrath' As a father or mother chastises their children so God chastens those whom He recieves and loves. It's done so that the peaceable fruits of righteousness may be shown or yielded as that person continues their walk with Him.

The Scriputre refers to 'vessels' of wrath and 'vessels' of mercy.. these folks, are not 'tableware' you put on your kitchen table.. they are individuals. God endures with much longsuffering the 'vessels' of wrath. He could wipe them all out in the twinkling of an eye if He wanted.. He endures with much longsuffering these 'vessels' of wrath so that He might make known the riches of His glory upon the 'vessels' of mercy which He knew even before the foundation of this world.

If you peer into the Book of Revelation and look at the 'hour of temptation' that is to come upon the earth.. His wrath during this time is not held back or reduced.. It actually grows... culminating in the physical return of Jesus the Christ.

The Cross is the substitute wrath for the 'believer'... God laid the wrath that a lost unsaved sinner was to partake in , upon Jesus the Christ. He 'took' that for His children. It is Justification, Righteousness, Salvation, Redemption, and a Shelter for those that are Saved. For the unbelieveing its a stumblingblock or just downright foolishness. God's wrath still is upon them even though He went to the Cross.

I appreciate the thoughts, Nobunaga and Archer.

Frances
May 7th 2008, 06:49 PM
I agree with N. anad A. - God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

HisLeast
May 7th 2008, 06:58 PM
I guess it depends what you consider wrath. Is wrath the natural consequences of our sinfull actions that's programmed into reality, or is it extra punishment on top of that?

When I hit rock bottom last year, it sure felt like G-d was wringing me out over the flames, but I only had myself to thank for it. In the end, I dodged more than a few bullets, and as time progresses there are still consequences to deal with. Is that wrath, or is that consequence, and is there a difference?

JordanW
May 7th 2008, 07:03 PM
I think that the Wrath of God still exists to some extent. I don't believe that he acts the same as he did back in the old days of Israel.

mikebr
May 7th 2008, 08:11 PM
I figured this would be an interesting discussion to dive into. You hear many preachers today speak about how God's wrath has subsided because of what Jesus Christ did on the cross and that He no longer pours out His wrath or judges the wicked.

I personally do not believe this, but I would be interested to see what others believe on this topic.

This topic sparked my interest because of a biography program I watched on a very controversial and infamous atheist who eventually left this world via very undesirable circumstances.

Opinions?

What about Christians who've left this world via very undesirable circumstances?


For true believers there is 'chastisement' as a Christian... not 'wrath' Archer42

Many people said that Hurricane Katrina was God's wrath poured out on New Orleans but there were over two hundred churches destroyed or damaged. Was it wrath for some and chastisement for others?

Or was it just a storm?:hmm:

VerticalReality
May 7th 2008, 08:29 PM
What about Christians who've left this world via very undesirable circumstances?


What about them?

mikebr
May 7th 2008, 08:33 PM
What about them?



Were those undesirable circumstances due to God's wrath?

mikebr
May 7th 2008, 08:34 PM
Judgment begins at the house of God, of which I am.

VerticalReality
May 7th 2008, 08:35 PM
Were those undesirable circumstances due to God's wrath?

Why would they be?

Additionally, let me just go ahead and add that the intentions of this thread were not just for folks to come in and challenge others about their beliefs but also to state what it is they actually believe about the subject at hand as well.

mikebr
May 7th 2008, 08:42 PM
Why would they be?

Additionally, let me just go ahead and add that the intentions of this thread were not just for folks to come in and ask questions to others about their beliefs but also to state what it is they actually believe about the subject at hand.

OK, I believe that the wages of sin is death, for Christians as well as atheists. Every sin has a direct consequence. If a Christian sins his consequences are exactly like those of an atheist who sins. If a Christian cheats on his wife the consequences will be exactly like those of an atheist who cheats on his wife. Maybe even worse. An atheist who cheats on his wife may cause his kids to look for a better life. A Christian who cheats on his wife may cause his kids to become atheists.

VerticalReality
May 7th 2008, 08:48 PM
OK, I believe that the wages of sin is death, for Christians as well as atheists. Every sin has a direct consequence. If a Christian sins his consequences are exactly like those of an atheist who sins. If a Christian cheats on his wife the consequences will be exactly like those of an atheist who cheats on his wife. Maybe even worse. An atheist who cheats on his wife may cause his kids to look for a better life. A Christian who cheats on his wife may cause his kids to become atheists.

What Scriptures would you use to indicate these things, other than the Scripture stating that the wages of sin equals death?

mikebr
May 7th 2008, 10:58 PM
What Scriptures would you use to indicate these things, other than the Scripture stating that the wages of sin equals death?


Just observation. So you disagree?

ARCHER42
May 7th 2008, 11:59 PM
Archer42

Many people said that Hurricane Katrina was God's wrath poured out on New Orleans but there were over two hundred churches destroyed or damaged. Was it wrath for some and chastisement for others?

Or was it just a storm?:hmm:


mmm lets see.. to answer your question... it was a storm yes.. and a big one at that. Was it chastisement for some and wrath for others? I really can't answer that ... because only God knows what was going on in those peoples hearts. He ALONE is the Righteous Judge..... As far as the churches.. were they destroyed by God under His wrath or Chastisement... or was it a storm that Satan started? As the prince of the power of the air he does have limited ability in wreaking havoc thru bad weather.

I really can't answer your question as far as the churches. He ALONE knows and I would really have to look at what these churches were preaching and teaching. Even then I wouldn't be able to give you an answer because God ALONE knows whats going on in the hearts of those that attended those types of churches and He will deal with it accordingly.

When I spoke of chastisement in my first post I was speaking about a believer as an individual. God is forgiving, merciful and loving.. look at the Life of His Own Son and what He did .. tasting death for every man woman and child. His Character and Personality is very evident in what He accomplished on the Cross...... But He is also Just and Righteous. To have one without the other just won't work. That's because He's Sovereign. God hasnt changed.. He's the same yesterday , today and forever.

VerticalReality
May 8th 2008, 04:25 PM
Just observation. So you disagree?

Yes, I disagree. I mean you could make the same argument that you are making for the folks under the Old Covenant as well, but we can clearly see through God's Word that God brought His wrath into folks' lives through many ways. He did so through sickness, weather related events and so on. I believe the same can and will happen today. Now, I'm not saying that everytime a storm arrises or something that it is God's wrath being poured out. I am simply saying that this is an avenue that God can use to wake some folks up.

I believe we can see a little of God's wrath in Romans 1 where he gives folks over to a debased mind for their wickedness.

Lars777
May 8th 2008, 05:49 PM
I personally do not believe for one second that any natural disaster that claims hundreds and thousands of lives comes from the hand of the Father as many people feel.

They claim its Gods wrath,or a form of judgement,or just a wake up call,to me that could not be further from the truth.

We need not forget something of importance, we see Jesus calm the wind and the sea showing His authority over nature, but way back in the garden this authority was given to man.

But man lost that authority,to who? Ya you guessed it.

Ya satan can and does bring it, but at the same time we are living in a fallen world that is drawing to a close and Jesus said just as labor pains increase so will natural events as the days draw close to the end.

Now with that being said I believe Gods love and wrath are one and the same,there is no difference.

What you say,how could you even say that,well think long and hard before answering that, lets look at this more closely.

Lets look at a human example first, no one in there right mind would ever try to hurt a child with the mother right there, if you did you would experience that mothers wrath upon you, you would feel the pain she inflicted but this wrath is rooted in love.

Her love of her child is bringing fourth this wrath, this mothers love is protecting her child.

Ok so lets look at the flood,here we can say that the wrath of God was poured out on the earth as many perished, But this was not the wrath of God at all it was His love, the human race had become tainted and could not continue, but at the same time that clock counted down for 120 years before the flood came as Noah was preacher of rightousness preaching to try and warn these tainted people to see the truth,they had none of it.

We also know the wrath of God was poured out at the cross of Christ,ya sure we all have images of a man a little beaten and a little bloodied hanging there but that could not be further from the truth, Jesus was a mass of blood and pulp,sure the beatings took there toll on His body,but it was the taking the sin of the world unto himself that disfigured Him to the point that you could hardly tell He was a man at all.

On top of that the Father withdrew His presence now that is the wrath of God in full bloom,as you cannot experience anything worse than losing the presence of the Father and having Him turn His back on you.

But we read that GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTON SON, yes the cross of Christ is the greatest expression of love that we can and will ever endure.

The cross is the greatest example of the love and wrath being one and the same,for God IS love everything the Father does is rooted and grounded in love.

Someone mentioned about being given over to a debased mind,as we well know that thew Father is drawing everyone to Him through Christ but there does come a time when the heart is so hardened there is no turning back and the Father gives you over to your debased mind.

Again this is the love of the Father simply giving you what you really want, surely you will experience the wrath as God gives you over but its His love that is giving you what you wanted all along, your way.

If you look back all throughout the Bible you will soon see Gods love and wrath are the very same thing.

New Creation
May 8th 2008, 06:46 PM
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness" (Rom 1:18) KJV

"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath"(Rom 2:5-8) KJV

"But immorality (sexual vice) and all impurity [[b] of lustful, rich, wasteful living] or greediness must not even be named among you, as is fitting and proper among saints (God's consecrated people). Let there be no filthiness (obscenity, indecency) nor foolish and sinful (silly and corrupt) talk, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting or becoming; but instead voice your thankfulness [to God]. For be sure of this: that no person practicing sexual vice or impurity in thought or in life, or one who is covetous [who has lustful desire for the property of others and is greedy for gain]--for he [in effect] is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one delude and deceive you with empty excuses and groundless arguments [for these sins], for through these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of rebellion and disobedience."
(Eph 5:3-6) AMP

"Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming."
(Col 3:5-6) NIV

9Marksfan
May 8th 2008, 07:57 PM
God only looks in mercy on the believer (even the chastening is merciful) and He only looks in wrath upon the unbeliever - agreed?

2 Peter 2:20
May 8th 2008, 08:25 PM
I personally do not believe for one second that any natural disaster that claims hundreds and thousands of lives comes from the hand of the Father as many people feel.


What about Sodom and Gomorrha? Gen. 19
What about the Israelites that were swallowed up by the earth? Num. 16
What about the snakes that were sent among the Israelites? Num. 21
What about Ananias and Sapphira? Acts 5

These things came directly from the Father.

HisGrace
May 8th 2008, 09:11 PM
When Adam disobeyed a curse was put on the earth and God punished his children through pestilence and wrath in the OT, but Jesus broke that curse on the cross.

There was no pestilence and famine in the NT. When referring to the wrath of God in the New Testament it speaks about judgment in the future. Some believe that earth started to die after the great flood, so therefore that affected the weather patterns, and because of the earth's deterioration the weather is getting worse. This is not because of God's wrath, but human disobedience in the Garden of Eden and global abuse down through the ages.

Once again God will reign with total wrath during the tribulation in order to totally defeat the devil and bring back peace and restoration to the earth.

9Marksfan
May 8th 2008, 10:00 PM
When referring to the wrath of God in the New Testament it speaks about judgment in the future.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. Rom 1:18-27 NKJV

We're seeing the wrath of God all around us here and NOW - one Bible teacher refers to it as "the wrath of abandonment".

ARCHER42
May 9th 2008, 12:19 AM
I agree with 9Marksfan.... 100 percent.

I will state it again.. God hasnt changed.. In Hebrews.. the NT..... He's the same today yesterday and forever. In Malachi.. OT He states and very boldly... "I change not" His wrath and just and righteous judgement against all ungodliness, unrighteousness, those who hold the truth in unrighteousness, wickedness, etc...is the same as it was in the OT as it is now. To say God is a loving and merciful God and then to turn around and say He will turn a shoulder and not judge wickedness and unrighteousness or that His judgements per say have somehow disappeared or been diminished flies in the face of His Sovereignty...... There are those on the other side too .. all they want to do is to 'call fire down from Heaven' upon everything that walks and talks on this earth. They have 'no mercy or love'... God is Soveriegn and He does not change.

The Cross was there to bring and allow Man to come back to God.. God the Father provided the 'provison', only thru the Gift of Righteouness which is the Person of Jesus the Christ and His completed work on that bloody tree. He hasn't changed... His Character and Personality are the same today as they were in the past... He's Loving and Merciful and He's Just and Righteous. You can't have one without the other.

HisGrace
May 9th 2008, 12:37 AM
2 Cor. 3:6 He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life.

Remember the old Levitical laws? :eek: Remember the sermon on the mount?

Jesus' death on the cross was in vain if God hadn't shown his introduction to the new covenant of love.

Hebrews 12:24You have come to Jesus, the one who mediates the new covenant between God and people, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks of forgiveness instead of crying out for VENGEANCE like the blood of Abel.

Hawkins
May 9th 2008, 01:52 AM
God only looks in mercy on the believer (even the chastening is merciful) and He only looks in wrath upon the unbeliever - agreed?

I think that if you love the wolves, you should feed them with sheeps, if you love the sheeps you have to isolate the wolves and goats from the sheeps and finally destroy them. There's no another way around.

If you willing to back-deduce from the end result, you might notice that there's only one of the two results you have to lean on,

1) with God
2) without God

There's no middle ground there, perhaps planet earth is the only middle ground provided such that one may have a choice, outside that, well, that's it.

One more point is, I have yet to see how those end up not with God will be. Hmmm.. I mean, it's philosophical question,

Without God, what will one be? To me, the only destination can be pointed to is ......... Hell.

Naphal
May 9th 2008, 07:17 AM
James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2 Corinthians 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Firstfruits
May 9th 2008, 08:35 AM
I figured this would be an interesting discussion to dive into. You hear many preachers today speak about how God's wrath has subsided because of what Jesus Christ did on the cross and that He no longer pours out His wrath or judges the wicked.

I personally do not believe this, but I would be interested to see what others believe on this topic.

This topic sparked my interest because of a biography program I watched on a very controversial and infamous atheist who eventually left this world via very undesirable circumstances.

Opinions?

I also agree with you concering Gods wrath.

Firstfruits

VerticalReality
May 10th 2008, 09:08 PM
When Adam disobeyed a curse was put on the earth and God punished his children through pestilence and wrath in the OT, but Jesus broke that curse on the cross.

I disagree. The Word states that Jesus broke the curse for those who believe. It is certainly not speaking of the unbeliever.


There was no pestilence and famine in the NT.

Where's the Scripture declaring such a thing?


When referring to the wrath of God in the New Testament it speaks about judgment in the future.

The Word definitely speaks of a final judgment where God will give folks their final destination. However, that doesn't mean that there is no judgment whatsoever for anyone now. In fact, Paul says that God does judge those who are outside the body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 5:12-13
For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”


Once again God will reign with total wrath during the tribulation in order to totally defeat the devil and bring back peace and restoration to the earth.

Of course, if one were to believe this they would have to assume that this 7 year tribulation teaching is biblically accurate, which I do not believe that it is. The Word declares in John 3, as has already been referenced in this thread, that the wrath of God is already abiding on those who do not believe on Jesus.

VerticalReality
May 10th 2008, 09:11 PM
2 Cor. 3:6 He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life.

Remember the old Levitical laws? :eek: Remember the sermon on the mount?

Jesus' death on the cross was in vain if God hadn't shown his introduction to the new covenant of love.

Hebrews 12:24You have come to Jesus, the one who mediates the new covenant between God and people, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks of forgiveness instead of crying out for VENGEANCE like the blood of Abel.

This is all true only for those who believe. None of the things you are referencing are speaking of unbelievers. There is no longer vengeance against those who believe on Jesus. That is the context of those passages.