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Hawk
May 7th 2008, 06:04 PM
The subject line says it all...

“Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.”
(Rev 19:17-21 NKJV)

If it has occurred, I'm curious what scriptures you would use to support it.

If it has not, I'd love to hear when you think it will occur.

Thanks so much! I'm just trying to get a handle around this viewpoint and there are some nagging questions I am having a hard time answering...

Hawk

wpm
May 7th 2008, 06:13 PM
The subject line says it all...

“Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.”
(Rev 19:17-21 NKJV)

If it has occurred, I'm curious what scriptures you would use to support it.

If it has not, I'd love to hear when you think it will occur.

Thanks so much! I'm just trying to get a handle around this viewpoint and there are some nagging questions I am having a hard time answering...

Hawk

This is the one final future Coming of Christ.

Paul

Hawk
May 7th 2008, 06:17 PM
Thanks so much for the speedy reply Paul! I completely agree with you.

Can you expound on what you believe is happening specifically in 19:20?

Hawk

Romulus
May 7th 2008, 06:22 PM
The subject line says it all...

“Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.”
(Rev 19:17-21 NKJV)

If it has occurred, I'm curious what scriptures you would use to support it.

If it has not, I'd love to hear when you think it will occur.

Thanks so much! I'm just trying to get a handle around this viewpoint and there are some nagging questions I am having a hard time answering...

Hawk

The other point of view of fulfillment which a few of us (very few) believe, is unfortunately against board rules to discuss (Full Preterism.) :(

God Bless!

Hawk
May 7th 2008, 06:36 PM
I guess the crux of my whole misunderstanding can be boiled down to one starting question.

Is Rev. 19:17-21 a parallel passage of Rev. 20:1-10 in the amil viewpoint? Is it just simply a "retelling" of the same events, "rewinding" at 20:1 back to Calvary and proceeding to the second coming and ultimate destruction of the wicked at 20:9?

Hawk

wpm
May 7th 2008, 07:16 PM
I guess the crux of my whole misunderstanding can be boiled down to one starting question.

Is Rev. 19:17-21 a parallel passage of Rev. 20:1-10 in the amil viewpoint? Is it just simply a "retelling" of the same events, "rewinding" at 20:1 back to Calvary and proceeding to the second coming and ultimate destruction of the wicked at 20:9?

Hawk

Rev 17-19 is speaking about the intra-Advent period. Babylon is false religion. The beast is the antichrist system. This ends with war against the saints, then the Coming of Christ.

I believe Rev 20 is also speaking about the intra-Advent period. The binding of Satan occurred spiritually at the cross. The Gospel went out to the ethnos (Gentiles). Satan and the spirit of antichrist will be released from their restraint at the end. The saints will then be surrounded - then the Coming of Christ.

Paul

John146
May 7th 2008, 07:18 PM
The subject line says it all...

“Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.”
(Rev 19:17-21 NKJV)

If it has occurred, I'm curious what scriptures you would use to support it.

If it has not, I'd love to hear when you think it will occur.

Thanks so much! I'm just trying to get a handle around this viewpoint and there are some nagging questions I am having a hard time answering...

Hawk

No, that has not occurred yet. It's a description of the second coming of Christ.

John146
May 7th 2008, 07:23 PM
I guess the crux of my whole misunderstanding can be boiled down to one starting question.

Is Rev. 19:17-21 a parallel passage of Rev. 20:1-10 in the amil viewpoint?

Not exactly. Paul explained it already. But I'll just add that we see both Rev 19:17-21 and Rev 20:9 as being when Christ returns "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess 1:7-8).



Is it just simply a "retelling" of the same events, "rewinding" at 20:1 back to Calvary and proceeding to the second coming and ultimate destruction of the wicked at 20:9?No, I think it's just speaking of the actual day of His return.

Hawk
May 7th 2008, 08:20 PM
I'm getting clarity, thanks again Eric and Paul...

Do you see the battle of Rev. 19:17-21 as the same battle as Rev. 20:7-10, or are they two different battles, both occurring some time around the second coming of Christ?

"Around", meaning a few hours or days, not 1000 years :D

Hawk

John146
May 7th 2008, 09:43 PM
I'm getting clarity, thanks again Eric and Paul...

Do you see the battle of Rev. 19:17-21 as the same battle as Rev. 20:7-10, or are they two different battles, both occurring some time around the second coming of Christ?

"Around", meaning a few hours or days, not 1000 years :D

Hawk

I see them as the same battle. I see the battle of Armageddon (Rev 16:13-16) as being the same battle as those.

Hawk
May 8th 2008, 12:44 AM
I see them as the same battle. I see the battle of Armageddon (Rev 16:13-16) as being the same battle as those.

Cool, thanks Eric! wpm, what do you think?

Hawk

wpm
May 8th 2008, 05:22 AM
Cool, thanks Eric! wpm, what do you think?

Hawk

Likewise. Gog and Magog battle is before the return of Christ, not 1,000 yrs+ after.

Paul

ross3421
May 8th 2008, 08:36 AM
I guess the crux of my whole misunderstanding can be boiled down to one starting question.

Is Rev. 19:17-21 a parallel passage of Rev. 20:1-10 in the amil viewpoint? Is it just simply a "retelling" of the same events, "rewinding" at 20:1 back to Calvary and proceeding to the second coming and ultimate destruction of the wicked at 20:9?

Hawk

Just an addition..........

The events in Rev 1-7 all have occurred prior to the return of Christ. The confusion is the literal interpetation of 1000 years. ummm Minnesota is called the state of a thousand lakes...... but I bet it does not have a thousand?

Anyway, you will see that Satan was cast into, and is loosened from the bottomless pit prior to Christ's return. He is cast into the pit in chapter 12 prior to the 1260 days and the woman is protected from the serpant Satan for this period. Since there is no measured time in heaven/hell Satan is reffered as being in this location for "thousand years". During this 1260 days in which Satan is bound he has a man in his place which deceives the world after which he himself is loosened and comes up after the 5 trumpet is complete for a period of 30 days.

Rev 8.9 then speak of the gathering of the final battle and the second coming of Christ.


Mark

Hawk
May 8th 2008, 10:05 AM
Likewise. Gog and Magog battle is before the return of Christ, not 1,000 yrs+ after.

Paul

Great.

So if the battle of Rev. 19 is the exact same battle as Rev. 20, how do you account for the discrepancies in details between the two battles? It would seem as if there has been some sort of passage of time between them (perhaps not 1000 years but a chronological reading of the text would of course indicate that - this is not a major point I am making, just a small observation - I am still just trying to obtain your viewpoint).

In Rev. 19:20, the "beast" and the "false prophet" are thrown alive into the lake of fire, but in Rev. 20, they are identified as already in there. Satan then joins them (20:10). If these were "parallel" passages, why would 20:10 describe the "beast" and "false prophet" as already being in the lake of fire?

Finally, hash out practically for me what it looks like for an "antichrist system" and a "false religion" to be thrown into the lake of fire.

Thanks again for helping me to understand your view!

Hawk

The Village Idiot
May 8th 2008, 12:19 PM
is an obvious parody to the marriage supper of the Lamb, referenced a few verses earlier.


"And the angel said to me, 'write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb'" (Re 19:9).

John146
May 8th 2008, 02:20 PM
Great.

So if the battle of Rev. 19 is the exact same battle as Rev. 20, how do you account for the discrepancies in details between the two battles? It would seem as if there has been some sort of passage of time between them (perhaps not 1000 years but a chronological reading of the text would of course indicate that - this is not a major point I am making, just a small observation - I am still just trying to obtain your viewpoint).

In Rev. 19:20, the "beast" and the "false prophet" are thrown alive into the lake of fire, but in Rev. 20, they are identified as already in there. Satan then joins them (20:10). If these were "parallel" passages, why would 20:10 describe the "beast" and "false prophet" as already being in the lake of fire?

Why can't it be that Satan is cast into the lake of fire shortly after the beast and the false prophet?



Finally, hash out practically for me what it looks like for an "antichrist system" and a "false religion" to be thrown into the lake of fire.

Probably kind of like how it looks for death and hell to be cast into the lake of fire.

Hawk
May 8th 2008, 02:49 PM
Why can't it be that Satan is cast into the lake of fire shortly after the beast and the false prophet?

It has to be at some point after the beast and false prophet are sent there - that's exactly what I'm saying.

But that single difference alone has to make anyone wonder, even just a little bit, if Rev. 19 and 20 are talking about the same battle.


Probably kind of like how it looks for death and hell to be cast into the lake of fire.

Gotcha.

Hawk

John146
May 8th 2008, 02:54 PM
It has to be at some point after the beast and false prophet are sent there - that's exactly what I'm saying.

But I don't see it as a problem for amil.



But that single difference alone has to make anyone wonder, even just a little bit, if Rev. 19 and 20 are talking about the same battle.

I suppose, but when I look at the overall picture, I believe amil is far more in harmony with scripture than premil.

Hawk
May 8th 2008, 03:33 PM
But I don't see it as a problem for amil.


I guess it all depends on one's perspective. Some premils I bet would consider it a huge problem, but from the amil perspective, it can still fit, despite a small amount of seeming disharmony.


I suppose, but when I look at the overall picture, I believe amil is far more in harmony with scripture than premil.

Perhaps - and I may start a thread to talk more about the overall picture. For this thread though I just wanted to narrowly focus on Rev. 19 and 20's battles in their context. And I think I've come away with a better understanding of the amil perspective on them now.

Sooo helpful!

Hawk

wpm
May 8th 2008, 05:04 PM
I guess it all depends on one's perspective. Some premils I bet would consider it a huge problem, but from the amil perspective, it can still fit, despite a small amount of seeming disharmony.



It is only a problem if you want it to be. It doesn't anywhere say that "1,000 yrs after the beast and false prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire then Satan will follow." If it did then there would be a problem. But it doesn't and there isn't. :pp

Paul

fellowservant
May 9th 2008, 08:57 PM
It is only a problem if you want it to be. It doesn't anywhere say that "1,000 yrs after the beast and false prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire then Satan will follow." If it did then there would be a problem. But it doesn't and there isn't. :pp

Paul

Yes is does, so there is a problem:D:pp i see rev 19 and rev 20 on, to be in chronological order. So that can be a big problem, if you don't see this in chronological order.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.



Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.




Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


The problem comes on the way you interpret, Amill is more of a spiritual interpretation. Premill is more of a literal interpretation. When Premill speaks of a coming man of sin as Paul did, Premill uses a man, not a system. When you speak of a prophet that can do miracles, and call fire down to the earth like the prophet Elijah did, and deceive people on the earth to worship this man of sin or his image, they see a man here as well.

Its all in the interpretation of the book of revelation between the two camps. And don't forget Daniel as well, he speaks of a man called a little horn who in the end of time will persecute the saints as well. And he is also mentioned as to be given to a burning flame. Premills consider this burning flame, to be the lake of fire that rev speaks of.

So its all in the interpretation, Amills more spiritual, Premill more literal. I my self take a more literal interpretation here, because of Daniel, Paul, and John. To me they all seem to speak of a literal man of sin, not a system. Paul says that this man must be revealed in his time, and deceive with all power and signs and lying wonders. I don't see a system here, but a man, who Paul calls the son of perdition, or man of sin.


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I see no system in the above scripture, but i do see Paul here referring to a coming man of sin. Who Christ will destroy with the brightness of his coming. The above scripture about this man of sin appears to be very literal, as Paul doesn't give us any reason to think otherwise.

When it comes to prophecy, its best to take most of it in a literal way, until there is reason to interpret it as spiritual. As most of Gods dealings with men, when it came to prophecy, took place literally. Ie the coming of John the baptist in the spirit of Elijah, the coming of Christ as the Messiah, and so on. I see no reason for a coming man of sin, to come as a force, or system. But as a person, as Daniel, and Paul, and John, seem to be saying.

God bless

David Taylor
May 9th 2008, 09:29 PM
Y
The problem comes on the way you interpret, Amill is more of a spiritual interpretation. Premill is more of a literal interpretation.


I've been amill for just over 10 years, (after being Premill for 20 years), and I prefer a literal interpretation of the following passage.

It aids in clarifying Satan's demise as described in Revelation.

Following the resurrection of mankind, at the return of Jesus we see:

Isaiah 26:19 "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon"


It is very fitting, in the grand scheme of creation and history, that Satan, the antagonist from the beginning who helped introduce sin into the perfect creation; will be the final and last one of Creation cast alive into the Lake of Fire. After the wicked angels, after the wicked people, even after the beast and false prophet of Revelation 19. Satan, the great serpent, the dragon of the sea.....will be slain at the Lord's return.

fellowservant
May 10th 2008, 04:18 AM
I've been amill for just over 10 years, (after being Premill for 20 years), and I prefer a literal interpretation of the following passage.

It aids in clarifying Satan's demise as described in Revelation.

Following the resurrection of mankind, at the return of Jesus we see:

Isaiah 26:19 "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon"


It is very fitting, in the grand scheme of creation and history, that Satan, the antagonist from the beginning who helped introduce sin into the perfect creation; will be the final and last one of Creation cast alive into the Lake of Fire. After the wicked angels, after the wicked people, even after the beast and false prophet of Revelation 19. Satan, the great serpent, the dragon of the sea.....will be slain at the Lord's return.


If Satan is destroyed at the second coming, then it will contradict rev 19 and 20. I take a more literal interpretation on rev 19 and 20 myself, as it gets rid of this contradiction. Plus the book of revelation is a more up to date version of prophecy, if we are going to talk about prophecy.

A little here, a little there, is how prophecy works. Its a known fact that in the book of revelation, John gives extra revelation to what the prophets said. Even Paul gave extra revelation, to what the prophets said.

God bless

Raybob
May 10th 2008, 09:53 AM
Yes is does, so there is a problem:D:pp i see rev 19 and rev 20 on, to be in chronological order. So that can be a big problem, if you don't see this in chronological order....

To see Rev. 19 chronologically followed by Rev. 20 would be a major problem. Revelation 19 clearly shows that when Christ comes for His church, that "the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great" will be consumed. To even think that anyone could survive this and then, at a chronologically later time, could "compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city" would be a major problem in interpretation, if you ask me.

Raybob

quiet dove
May 10th 2008, 02:23 PM
To see Rev. 19 chronologically followed by Rev. 20 would be a major problem. Revelation 19 clearly shows that when Christ comes for His church, that "the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great" will be consumed. To even think that anyone could survive this and then, at a chronologically later time, could "compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city" would be a major problem in interpretation, if you ask me.

Raybob

Revelation 19 does not say all men were "will be consumed" it says
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. ...21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Where as Revelation 20 says
Rev 20:9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Not much left for birds to consume here.

The Village Idiot
May 10th 2008, 04:15 PM
Jear Jo 14:6 and Hawk:

May I be forgiven for making an observation?


So if the battle of Rev. 19 is the exact same battle as Rev. 20, how do you account for the discrepancies in details between the two battles? It would seem as if there has been some sort of passage of time between them (perhaps not 1000 years but a chronological reading of the text would of course indicate that - this is not a major point I am making, just a small observation - I am still just trying to obtain your viewpoint).


Da 7 concerns the destruction of the beast that has persecuted the people of God, and the transference of his kingdom to the Son of Manb and his people. It is this which Revelation depicts in 19:11-21 (the destruction of the beast) and 20:4-6 (the transference of the kingdom to the saints). The negative aspect of the final judgment (19:11-21), in which the beast was condemned, requires as its positive counterpart that judgment be given in favor of the martyrs, who must be vindicated and rewarded. In the contest between the beast and the witness of Jesus, the beast appeared to triumph and the martyrs to be defeated. But when the heavenly perspective finally prevails on earth, so that the truth of things becomes evident, not only must the beast be seen to be defeated, but also the martyrs must be seen to triumph. The kings of the earth who shared the beast’s usurped rule are deprived of their kingdom, so the martyrs now reign with Christ.



In Rev. 19:20, the "beast" and the "false prophet" are thrown alive into the lake of fire, but in Rev. 20, they are identified as already in there. Satan then joins them (20:10). If these were "parallel" passages, why would 20:10 describe the "beast" and "false prophet" as already being in the lake of fire? Finally, hash out practically for me what it looks like for an "antichrist system" and a "false religion" to be thrown into the lake of fire.

John’s lake of burning sulful imagery (Re 19:20; 20:10, 14, 15) imagery is borrowed from Ge 19:24. I think the apostle is saying that judgment will befall the beast, the kings of the earth and their legions as surely as it caught Sodom.


"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. "Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it" (Ezk 16:49-50).


"And Babylon, the beauty of kingdoms, the glory of the Chaldeans' pride, Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah" (Is 13:19).


"And they strengthen the hands of evildoers, So that no one has turned back from his wickedness. All of them have become to Me like Sodom, And her inhabitants like Gomorrah" (Je 23:14).

wpm
May 10th 2008, 04:53 PM
If Satan is destroyed at the second coming, then it will contradict rev 19 and 20. I take a more literal interpretation on rev 19 and 20 myself, as it gets rid of this contradiction. Plus the book of revelation is a more up to date version of prophecy, if we are going to talk about prophecy.

A little here, a little there, is how prophecy works. Its a known fact that in the book of revelation, John gives extra revelation to what the prophets said. Even Paul gave extra revelation, to what the prophets said.

God bless

No, it will contradict your chronological approach to Rev. But Rev is not chronological.

Paul

wpm
May 10th 2008, 04:58 PM
Revelation 19 does not say all men were "will be consumed" it says
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. ...21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Where as Revelation 20 says
Rev 20:9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Not much left for birds to consume here.

You are only quoting part of the wicked company that are destroyed. Revelation 19:17-18, describes the full amount, “And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

In keeping with the rest of Scripture, Rev 19 show the complete and swift annihilation of all left behind flesh. Who possibly is exempt from "the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.” The attached "both free and bond, both small and great” reinforces the all-inclusive nature of the wicked in view. That is of course if we take a plain face value reading of Scripture - i.e. letting Scripture speak for itself.


Paul

wpm
May 10th 2008, 05:05 PM
Yes is does, so there is a problem:D:pp i see rev 19 and rev 20 on, to be in chronological order. So that can be a big problem, if you don't see this in chronological order.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.



Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.




Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


The problem comes on the way you interpret, Amill is more of a spiritual interpretation. Premill is more of a literal interpretation. When Premill speaks of a coming man of sin as Paul did, Premill uses a man, not a system. When you speak of a prophet that can do miracles, and call fire down to the earth like the prophet Elijah did, and deceive people on the earth to worship this man of sin or his image, they see a man here as well.

Its all in the interpretation of the book of revelation between the two camps. And don't forget Daniel as well, he speaks of a man called a little horn who in the end of time will persecute the saints as well. And he is also mentioned as to be given to a burning flame. Premills consider this burning flame, to be the lake of fire that rev speaks of.

So its all in the interpretation, Amills more spiritual, Premill more literal. I my self take a more literal interpretation here, because of Daniel, Paul, and John. To me they all seem to speak of a literal man of sin, not a system. Paul says that this man must be revealed in his time, and deceive with all power and signs and lying wonders. I don't see a system here, but a man, who Paul calls the son of perdition, or man of sin.


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I see no system in the above scripture, but i do see Paul here referring to a coming man of sin. Who Christ will destroy with the brightness of his coming. The above scripture about this man of sin appears to be very literal, as Paul doesn't give us any reason to think otherwise.

When it comes to prophecy, its best to take most of it in a literal way, until there is reason to interpret it as spiritual. As most of Gods dealings with men, when it came to prophecy, took place literally. Ie the coming of John the baptist in the spirit of Elijah, the coming of Christ as the Messiah, and so on. I see no reason for a coming man of sin, to come as a force, or system. But as a person, as Daniel, and Paul, and John, seem to be saying.

God bless

As our disscusion on 2 Peter 3 proves, Premils are far from literalist in their analyse of Scripture. They are when it suits. If it doesn't fit with their take on Rev 20 they tend to insert 1,000 yrs+ into the narrative or spiritualise the detail in view. I will put this conclusion to the test:

Who on this earth is exempt from the description"the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great”?

Paul

quiet dove
May 10th 2008, 05:13 PM
You are only quoting part of the wicked company that are destroyed. Revelation 19:17-18, describes the full amount, “And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

In keeping with the rest of Scripture, Rev 19 show the complete and swift annihilation of all left behind flesh. Who possibly is exempt from "the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.” The attached "both free and bond, both small and great” reinforces the all-inclusive nature of the wicked in view. That is of course if we take a plain face value reading of Scripture - i.e. letting Scripture speak for itself.


Paul

Ok, I just didnt quote that far, but the fact remains, the birds are devouring this flesh, not fire from heaven devouring the flesh, as in Rev 20. Plus it says the flesh of those who gather together, those of the army of the Beast, those who received the Beast mark and worshiped his image - they are the ones destroyed and eaten by the birds. That does not equate to the same thing happening to those mortals still alive and in Christ Jesus.

wpm
May 10th 2008, 05:14 PM
Ok, I just didnt quote that far, but the fact remains, the birds are devouring this flesh, not fire from heaven devouring the flesh, as in Rev 20. Plus it says the flesh of those who gather together, those of the army of the Beast, those who received the Beast mark and worshiped his image - they are the ones destroyed and eaten by the birds. That does not equate to the same thing happening to those mortals still alive and in Christ Jesus.

Revelation 13:8 states, “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

The beast's army are all the wicked!!!

Paul

Clifton
May 10th 2008, 06:26 PM
I was avoiding saying this (again) since the thread title contains “19:17-21”, but now I am curious if the surrounding text is having some effect on the ideas and views of these selected verses… perhaps not, but just in case, let me mention, in this thread, that there is a "hole" in Revelation Chapter 19, IOW: LACUNAE OF A GRAVE LOSS… “LOST TEXT”, which is presupposed between 19:8 and 19:11 – the current texts of Revelation we have reveals this presupposition;

Notes:
------
{{*Destruction of the Parthian hosts by Christ and His elect. : Lost (though referred to proleptically in 17:14 and presupposed in 19:13: possibly displaced by the interpolated passage, 19:9-10)}};

19:9b-10, doublet of 22:8-9, which has dislodged part of the original text. “Destruction of the Parthian hosts by Christ and His elect” Lost (though referred to proleptically in 17:14 and presupposed in 19:13: possibly displaced by the interpolated passage, 19:9-10). These lost verses after 19:9a (whose place has been taken by an interpolation, i.e., 19:9b-10 modeled on 22:8-9) recounted the destruction of the Parthian kings;

Their destruction was prophesied in 17:14, and the vision recounting their destruction should have been given here. In 17:17.16 there is a prophecy of the destruction of Rome: in 18 a vision of this destruction. In 14:14.18-20 (see also 16:13-14.16) we have a proleptic vision of the judgment of the nations by the Word of God in 19:11-21 (20:7-10);

Thus it is clear that a vision dealing with the destruction of the Parthian hosts by the Lamb and the Saints (see 17:14) should have been recorded in our text. That it actually did stand in the autograph of the Seer may be reasonably concluded from 19:13, where the Word of God is said to be "clothed with a garment dipped in blood." that this is the blood of the Parthian hosts follows from any just interpretation of the text.

------

The loss of what should have been in 19:9b-10 has been replaced with:
“He said to me, ‘These are true words of God.’ * I fell down before his feet to worship him. He said to me, ‘Look! Don’t do it! I am a fellow bond-servant with you and with your brothers who hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God, for the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy.’”, which is modeled on Revelation 22:8-9.

******

So, the proof is in the pudding, so to speak.

Also, 16:5b-6; 16:7 goes between 19:4 and 19:5. It is common knowledge with scholars, textual folks, critics, and so on, and even with many simple laymen, of Revelation being in disorder – some have called it a clumsy redaction over the past century, but nonetheless, the disorder is very old news and was recognized in the 1st Millennium A.D.

(19:4) The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sits on the throne, saying, “Amen! Hallelujah!”
(16:5b) “You are righteous, who are and who were, you Holy One, because you have judged these things.
(16:6) For they poured out the blood of the saints and the prophets, and you have given them blood to drink. They deserve this.”
(16:7) I heard the altar saying, “Yes, Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are your judgments.”
(19:5) A voice came forth from the throne, saying, “Give praise to our God, all you his servants, you who fear him, the small and the great!”
(19:6-8)…
(19:9a) He said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’”

As for the addressed verses, Revelation 19:17-21, in this thread, they are fine – now, there are variances between the different Greek Archetypes, but nothing I see to rock one’s world over. Nonetheless, I'll provide those variants and alternative readings upon request.

Blessings.

quiet dove
May 11th 2008, 01:42 AM
Revelation 13:8 states, “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

The beast's army are all the wicked!!!

Paul

I understand that part. All the wicked at Christ return, He destroys with the sword of His mouth, and the birds are filled.

You said in the previous post


Rev 19 show the complete and swift annihilation of all left behind flesh.But actually, it is only the flesh of the wicked, not the righteous.

And as I said before, in Rev 20, it is not Christ who destroys the wicked(as in Rev 19), it is "the fire comes down from God out of heaven that devours them." No bird would have anything to eat after God devoured the bodies with fire.

In Rev 19 there is a distinction between what happens to the AC and FP as compared to the rest of the wicked. The former two are tossed on in the Lake of Fire, the latter bunch is "killed with the sword of His mouth", then later, a thousand years later, God destroys any and all who joined the rebellion lead by the released from prison Satan. They are killed by fire from heaven. Then they, along with the wicked killed a thousand years earlier by Christ are all judged. GWTJ.

wpm
May 11th 2008, 01:54 AM
I understand that part. All the wicked at Christ return, He destroys with the sword of His mouth, and the birds are filled.

You said in the previous post

But actually, it is only the flesh of the wicked, not the righteous.


And as I said before, in Rev 20, it is not Christ who destroys the wicked(as in Rev 19), it is "the fire comes down from God out of heaven that devours them." No bird would have anything to eat after God devoured the bodies with fire.


In Rev 19 there is a distinction between what happens to the AC and FP as compared to the rest of the wicked. The former two are tossed on in the Lake of Fire, the latter bunch is "killed with the sword of His mouth", then later, a thousand years later, God destroys any and all who joined the rebellion lead by the released from prison Satan. They are killed by fire from heaven. Then they, along with the wicked killed a thousand years earlier by Christ are all judged. GWTJ.




But I believe that the catching away is the one final return of Christ. The righteous are caught up (those who have the seal of God) and the wicked are destroyed (all those that have been conformed to this evil world - the beast system).

Paul

Raybob
May 12th 2008, 04:32 PM
And as I said before, in Rev 20, it is not Christ who destroys the wicked(as in Rev 19), it is "the fire comes down from God out of heaven that devours them." No bird would have anything to eat after God devoured the bodies with fire.

Pour birdies gotta have some bird food. :) If you eat a steak, you need to put the piece of the cow body over fire to make it taste good. Same with bird food in that day I suppose.


In Rev 19 there is a distinction between what happens to the AC and FP as compared to the rest of the wicked. The former two are tossed on in the Lake of Fire, the latter bunch is "killed with the sword of His mouth",



I'm sure you aren't so much of a literalist that you can't understand the sword of His mouth being the same as the "Word of God". Those that don't follow Jesus, being killed judgment day, speaks of their souls. Rev. 20 gives us more detail of what happens to their souls at this judgment.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Raybob

quiet dove
May 12th 2008, 07:36 PM
I'm sure you aren't so much of a literalist that you can't understand the sword of His mouth being the same as the "Word of God". Those that don't follow Jesus, being killed judgment day, speaks of their souls. Rev. 20 gives us more detail of what happens to their souls at this judgment.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Raybob

Yes, I understand the sword of His mouth is the Word. But that does not make Rev 19 and 20 the same event.

19:20...These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled
then in 20
20:9 And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. ...12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. with their flesh. and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

There is a difference in God devouring, from heaven with fire, and all the dead standing for judgment, then being thrown, in the Lake of Fire. We are also told that the earth and heaven fled away, how are birds being filled with dead bodies that are no longer on a earth, that is also, no longer there?

wpm
May 12th 2008, 07:44 PM
Yes, I understand the sword of His mouth is the Word. But that does not make Rev 19 and 20 the same event.

19:20...These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled
then in 20
20:9 And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. ...12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. with their flesh. and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

There is a difference in God devouring, from heaven with fire, and all the dead standing for judgment, then being thrown, in the Lake of Fire. We are also told that the earth and heaven fled away, how are birds being filled with dead bodies that are no longer on a earth, that is also, no longer there?



I thought that Jesus appears from heaven? Jesus represents the kingdom of heaven and all righteousness. When He appears He brings the new Jerusalem with Him. This probably happens real quickly. The righteous are rescued, the wicked are destroyed at His appearance, the earth is then dissolved. How possibly could any mortal survive this to enter a supposed future millennium?

Paul

quiet dove
May 12th 2008, 07:59 PM
I thought that Jesus appears from heaven? Jesus represents the kingdom of heaven and all righteousness. When He appears He brings the new Jerusalem with Him. This probably happens real quickly. The righteous are rescued, the wicked are destroyed at His appearance, the earth is then dissolved. How possibly could any mortal survive this to enter a supposed future millennium?

Paul

When we get to Rev 20, no flesh will survive. But Rev 19 is a different matter, how can birds eat any flesh if eveything, including the earth is gone?

wpm
May 12th 2008, 08:30 PM
When we get to Rev 20, no flesh will survive. But Rev 19 is a different matter, how can birds eat any flesh if eveything, including the earth is gone?


The wicked are destroyed with His appearance. The fowls then partake of the feast. This is a symbolic depiction of the destruction of the wicked.

Paul

David Taylor
May 12th 2008, 09:26 PM
If Satan is destroyed at the second coming, then it will contradict rev 19 and 20.

I find no contradiction in rev 19-20 with satan being destroyed at the second coming.

Both of those chapters, discuss aspects of the 2nd Coming.

19 primarily focuses on the living wicked who are destroyed at the Lord's return.

20 primarily focuses on the dead wicked who are destyroyed at the Lord's return.

Satan, is just the last creature cast into the lake of fire, when all of the wicked are sent in.





I take a more literal interpretation on rev 19 and 20 myself, as it gets rid of this contradiction.

There's no contradiction. All of the wicked, both living and dead, are destroyed and cast into the furnace of fire, lake, darkness, gnshing-teeth place at Christ's return.





Plus the book of revelation is a more up to date version of prophecy, if we are going to talk about prophecy.


And Revelation's account of the 2nd Coming harmonizes nicely with Isaiah's account of the 2nd Coming; if they are allowed to harmonize with each other. No reason to allow anything to create conflict between them.





A little here, a little there, is how prophecy works. Its a known fact that in the book of revelation, John gives extra revelation to what the prophets said. Even Paul gave extra revelation, to what the prophets said.


Yep, but even any extra revelation given, it always harmonizes with prior revelation. That is where false later-additions like the BOM, DNC, PGP, Koran, NWT, Ellen G White prophecies, etc...all fail. They never harmonize with the previously provided inspired scriptures.

Merton
May 13th 2008, 12:08 AM
I thought that Jesus appears from heaven? Jesus represents the kingdom of heaven and all righteousness. When He appears He brings the new Jerusalem with Him. This probably happens real quickly. The righteous are rescued, the wicked are destroyed at His appearance, the earth is then dissolved. How possibly could any mortal survive this to enter a supposed future millennium?

Paul


Isa 66:13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
Isa 66:14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.
Isa 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
Isa 66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
Isa 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Jer 33:25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, andif I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
Jer 33:26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.


Merton.

wpm
May 13th 2008, 03:38 AM
Isa 66:13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
Isa 66:14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.
Isa 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
Isa 66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
Isa 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Jer 33:25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, andif I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
Jer 33:26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.


Merton.



What time period are you relating these to, the last days, your millennial earth or the new earth?

Paul

Merton
May 13th 2008, 11:42 PM
What time period are you relating these to, the last days, your millennial earth or the new earth?

Paul


The millennum is the last day of the last days.

Neither our present time period pre Christs return, nor the time post the thousand years is described in these scriptures.

Nations in our time still learn war, and there is only one nation with no more sea in the eternal earth.

Merton.

The Village Idiot
May 14th 2008, 02:49 AM
As I said elsewhere, the marriage supper (Re 19:9) and the carrion feast (Re 19:17) stand in parody as a theological statement. You'd think we'd get that given that both are "suppers" and are separated by a mere 7 verses. But go ahead! Just try an make sense of this from a Chronological perspective!

wpm
May 14th 2008, 04:17 AM
The millennum is the last day of the last days.

Neither our present time period pre Christs return, nor the time post the thousand years is described in these scriptures.

Nations in our time still learn war, and there is only one nation with no more sea in the eternal earth.

Merton.

What about Isa 65 and what it says of the new heavens and new earth? Is that a future millennium also?

Paul

Merton
May 14th 2008, 09:28 PM
What about Isa 65 and what it says of the new heavens and new earth? Is that a future millennium also?

Paul


Paul,

The new heavens and earth of Isaiah ch 65 is described in Isaiah ch 65 and ch 66, even back from Ch 60. (with many descriptions of events in the world which lead up to that time as described in Daniel.)

It is also described in Rev. chs 21 and 22.

What you have to do is take stock of the descriptions of the new heaven and earth in those chapters and try to make out of them an eternal situation on an eternal earth with no more sea, no more nations, and no more flesh.

The fact is that you can no do so, nor can you show that such a time exists now before Christ returns.

Merton.

wpm
May 14th 2008, 10:02 PM
Paul,

The new heavens and earth of Isaiah ch 65 is described in Isaiah ch 65 and ch 66, even back from Ch 60. (with many descriptions of events in the world which lead up to that time as described in Daniel.)

It is also described in Rev. chs 21 and 22.

What you have to do is take stock of the descriptions of the new heaven and earth in those chapters and try to make out of them an eternal situation on an eternal earth with no more sea, no more nations, and no more flesh.

The fact is that you can no do so, nor can you show that such a time exists now before Christ returns.

Merton.

So the millennium is also the last days and the new heavens and new earth???

That sounds about right. :confused

Paul

Merton
May 15th 2008, 01:40 AM
So the millennium is also the last days and the new heavens and new earth???

That sounds about right. :confused

Paul


The millennium is in the last days according to Isaiah ch 2 and the new heavens and new earth of Isaiah chs 65-66 is in the last days as well but it is not the recreated new earth of the eternal state which is after the last judgment.

The last days of this present earth extend from the time of the cross through the millennium of the last day.

Christs day is not a single day but is the last day of this present earth.


I am not trying to convince you particularly but others who follow the bible without using Chiltons teachings will get to understand it.


Luk 17:22 And He said to the disciples, Days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and will not see.
Luk 17:23 And they will say to you, Lo, here! Or, Lo, there! Do not go away, nor follow.
Luk 17:24 For as the lightning lighting up out of one part under heaven to one part under heaven shines, so also will the Son of Man be in His day.


We now live in the time of the selection of Christ's Bride who suffer in this life as He did, (Heb.ch 12) but the time of the reigning of the saints with Christ over the nations is further ahead after His return, in His day, but well before the burning up of this present creation with all of the ungodly of all time.

Merton.

wpm
May 15th 2008, 04:45 AM
The millennium is in the last days according to Isaiah ch 2 and the new heavens and new earth of Isaiah chs 65-66 is in the last days as well but it is not the recreated new earth of the eternal state which is after the last judgment.

The last days of this present earth extend from the time of the cross through the millennium of the last day.

Christs day is not a single day but is the last day of this present earth.


I am not trying to convince you particularly but others who follow the bible without using Chiltons teachings will get to understand it.


Luk 17:22 And He said to the disciples, Days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and will not see.
Luk 17:23 And they will say to you, Lo, here! Or, Lo, there! Do not go away, nor follow.
Luk 17:24 For as the lightning lighting up out of one part under heaven to one part under heaven shines, so also will the Son of Man be in His day.


We now live in the time of the selection of Christ's Bride who suffer in this life as He did, (Heb.ch 12) but the time of the reigning of the saints with Christ over the nations is further ahead after His return, in His day, but well before the burning up of this present creation with all of the ungodly of all time.

Merton.

So there are 2 old earths and 2 new earths one at the start of the millennium one after and 2 "last days periods" one before the Coming of Christ and one after?

Paul

Clifton
May 15th 2008, 12:57 PM
So there are 2 old earths and 2 new earths one at the start of the millennium one after and 2 "last days periods" one before the Coming of Christ and one after?

Paul

I believe he was more descriptive in saying "recreated new Earth" (when this current physical Earth will be sent away) which fits the context and distinguishes the Hebrew and Aramaic Idioms... after the Flood with Noah in The Ark there was a 'new Earth' - when you became a Christian you became a new creature - same body, which will also become anew in the eternal.;)

Blessings.

ShirleyFord
May 15th 2008, 02:10 PM
I believe he was more descriptive in saying "recreated new Earth" (when this current physical Earth will be sent away) which fits the context and distinguishes the Hebrew and Aramaic Idioms... after the Flood with Noah in The Ark there was a 'new Earth' - when you became a Christian you became a new creature - same body, which will also become anew in the eternal.;)

Blessings.

But Clifton (sorry I called you Hawk), God didn't create a new earth after the flood. The same old earth before the flood was the same old earth after the flood. The only thing different, all living people and animals who were not in Noah's ark at the time of the flood were destroyed off the old earth.

This is what God said to Noah concerning the purpose of the flood:

Genesis 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.



Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.


23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.


Where do you find mentioned concerning God destroying the old earth with the flood and recreating a new earth afterward?

Clifton
May 15th 2008, 02:31 PM
But Hawk, God didn't create a new earth after the flood. The same old earth before the flood was the same old earth after the flood. The only thing different, all living people and animals who were not in Noah's ark at the time of the flood were destroyed off the old earth.

This is what God said to Noah concerning the purpose of the flood:

Genesis 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.



Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.


23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.


Where do you find mentioned concerning God destroying the old earth with the flood and recreating a new earth afterward?

I'm sorry, I do not understand you.:confused I'm not Hawk, and I did not say anything about God "recreating a new Earth". The word "new" in the Bible, as well as in today's age, does not always refer to something 'totally destroyed" and "rebuilt" (or "recreated"). The contexts reveals the meaning(s);

For those of us that accept the Apocalypse of John, (and DSS Revelation, as far as a new earth is concerned), the only reason we see that this current physical Earth will be gone and there will be a brand new Earth (though it might be termed as a "metaphysical" one) is due to the texts that reveal that this current physical Earth will be sent away, and will have fled away, and all things being 'made new'.

As for after The Flood, the whole physical Earth was not destroyed, but the surface pretty much was, thus, a new Earth is an applicable term.;)

Blessings.

Merton
May 16th 2008, 12:07 AM
So there are 2 old earths and 2 new earths one at the start of the millennium one after and 2 "last days periods" one before the Coming of Christ and one after?

Paul


Paul,

The new Heaven of Isaiah ch 65 is the new Heavenly rule of the saints of the New Jerusalem from above come down,(Rev.21) and the new earth of Isaiah is the changed conditions of the present earth in which mortal people live.

Hence the reason for the presence of flesh in Isaiah ch 66.


There is only one period called the last days in the bible which spans from the cross to the last judgment.

Christ will reign with His saints over the nations who will not learn war during the last day, which is still in the last days.

The book of Rev. is mainly dealing with the changing of the rulerships over our present earth in our future at the return of Christ some thousand years before its burning up with all ungodly of all ages. (A better term is the years of the thousand)


Merton.

ShirleyFord
May 16th 2008, 12:21 AM
I went back and edited my post shortly after I had posted it and noticed that the post was by Clifton and not by Hawk (as I incorrectly assumed while writing my post) to read:


But Clifton (sorry I called you Hawk),

Sorry you didn't catch that.

Clifton
May 16th 2008, 12:35 AM
I went back and edited my post shortly after I had posted it and noticed that the post was by Clifton and not by Hawk (as I incorrectly assumed while writing my post) to read:



Sorry you didn't catch that.
Quite alright Shirley :hug:. I know many of us have to go back and edit our posts, and woah, oh how many times I have done mine as well...

...if only I had a dollar for every time I have hit the PREVIEW POST and EDIT Buttons.:P

Blessings.

ShirleyFord
May 16th 2008, 12:54 AM
The millennum is the last day of the last days.

Merton.

But Jesus said that these things occur on the last day:

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (John 6:39)

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:40)

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:54)

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. (John 12:48)

Premill believe that the physical resurrection of the righteous is before the thousand years at the Second Coming of Christ. But that the judgement of the wicked is after the thousand years.

But Jesus taught that both happen at the same time.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29)

So the last day must be after the thousand years have expired and after the devil's tribulation of wrath. at the Second Coming of Christ.

Merton
May 16th 2008, 09:19 AM
But Jesus said that these things occur on the last day:

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (John 6:39)

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:40)

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:54)

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. (John 12:48)

Premill believe that the physical resurrection of the righteous is before the thousand years at the Second Coming of Christ. But that the judgement of the wicked is after the thousand years.

But Jesus taught that both happen at the same time.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29)

So the last day must be after the thousand years have expired and after the devil's tribulation of wrath. at the Second Coming of Christ.




Here we must pay attention to detail.

"at the last day" in the last day" is after all "a day" of "the last days."

Luke 17:26 gives the day of Christ as being many 24 hour days.

Also-

Christ spoke of two groups of people who are saved in John 5.

One group of the saved who DO NOT come into judgment,(being judged progressively before they die) these are in the first resurrection near the beginning of the thousand years--

Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, The one who hears My Word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Joh 5:25 Truly, truly, I say to you that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and the ones hearing will live.


The other group of the saved who do come into THE judgment, that is the

sheep and goats after the thousand years---

Joh 5:27 And He also gave authority to Him to execute judgment, for He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice.
Joh 5:29 And they will come out, the ones having done good into a resurrection of life; and the ones having practiced evil into a resurrection of judgment.



The necessary qualifications required, in order to be in the first resurrection is far greater than that of being among the saved sheep after the thousand years.


as stated by the Apostle Paul--


Phi 3:7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss because of Christ.
Phi 3:8 But, no, rather I also count all things to be loss because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them to be trash, that I might gain Christ
Phi 3:9 and be found in Him; not having my own righteousness of Law, but through the faith of Christ, having the righteousness of God on faith,
Phi 3:10 to know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, having been conformed to His death,
Phi 3:11 if somehow I may attain to a resurrection out of the dead.
Phi 3:12 Not that I already received or already have been perfected, but I press on, if I also may lay hold, inasmuch as I also was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.


Look up how often Paul mentioned hell in his ministry.


Both Christ and Paul ministered differently to the saved than to the unsaved.


Merton.

fellowservant
May 16th 2008, 05:07 PM
The beast's army are all the wicked!!!


Paul

An army is an army, you can only have so many people in it at a time.

If all the wicked are destroyed at the second coming. Who will Christ reign over with a rod of iron during the Millenium?


Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.




Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little.




According to Daniel after the beast is given to the burning flame (ie the lake of fire) God spares some of the kingdoms that the beast had power over.

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.



God bless

wpm
May 16th 2008, 06:12 PM
I'm sorry, I do not understand you.:confused I'm not Hawk, and I did not say anything about God "recreating a new Earth". The word "new" in the Bible, as well as in today's age, does not always refer to something 'totally destroyed" and "rebuilt" (or "recreated"). The contexts reveals the meaning(s);

For those of us that accept the Apocalypse of John, (and DSS Revelation, as far as a new earth is concerned), the only reason we see that this current physical Earth will be gone and there will be a brand new Earth (though it might be termed as a "metaphysical" one) is due to the texts that reveal that this current physical Earth will be sent away, and will have fled away, and all things being 'made new'.

As for after The Flood, the whole physical Earth was not destroyed, but the surface pretty much was, thus, a new Earth is an applicable term.;)

Blessings.

But the first John sees a new earth is after the millennium. You introduce the "new heaven and a new earth" at the beginning of your millennium, when John expressly makes no reference to it until after Satan's little season. I feel you and John are at odds.

Paul

wpm
May 16th 2008, 06:16 PM
An army is an army, you can only have so many people in it at a time.

If all the wicked are destroyed at the second coming. Who will Christ reign over with a rod of iron during the Millenium?


Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.




Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little.




According to Daniel after the beast is given to the burning flame (ie the lake of fire) God spares some of the kingdoms that the beast had power over.

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.



God bless

Daniel's beasts represent ancient wicked kings/kingdoms that are long gone. These are tributaries of the overall beast kingdom. The beast in Rev represents that overall spirit of antichrist that has existed from the beginning. It is destroyed at Christ's Coming.

Paul

Paul

Clifton
May 16th 2008, 07:12 PM
But the first John sees a new earth is after the millennium.
Right, a brand new Earth (be it "physical", or "metaphysical"), after this current physical Earth we are living on now is sent away (and has "fled away"), then comes the "Eternal Abode", which the idiom "NEW Jerusalem" is for.


You introduce the "new heaven and a new earth" at the beginning of your millennium, when John expressly makes no reference to it until after Satan's little season.No, I do not, and have not, and as far back as I can remember in my previous decades of my life, never have "introduce" a "Brand new Earth" (after this Current Physical Earth is sent away and has fled away) before the Millennium-Messianic age. That makes no sense, and is not congruent with the bulk of the Bible and the historical texts related to it.

I'm using the term "Brand new Earth" here to make the distinction between this current physical Earth we are on, and the one to come after this current physical Earth "passes away" (an alternate reading many English Bibles use), be the Brand New one "physical", or "metaphysical" (which is the one I believe).


I feel you and John are at odds.Then you feel incorrectly. To remedy that, I refer you to the thread:
Revelation: Last 3 Chapters
Post #3. It is short and only contains small summaries of larger pictures.

Blessings.

wpm
May 16th 2008, 10:02 PM
Right, a brand new Earth (be it "physical", or "metaphysical"), after this current physical Earth we are living on now is sent away (and has "fled away"), then comes the "Eternal Abode", which the idiom "NEW Jerusalem" is for.

No, I do not, and have not, and as far back as I can remember in my previous decades of my life, never have "introduce" a "Brand new Earth" (after this Current Physical Earth is sent away and has fled away) before the Millennium-Messianic age. That makes no sense, and is not congruent with the bulk of the Bible and the historical texts related to it.

I'm using the term "Brand new Earth" here to make the distinction between this current physical Earth we are on, and the one to come after this current physical Earth "passes away" (an alternate reading many English Bibles use), be the Brand New one "physical", or "metaphysical" (which is the one I believe).

Then you feel incorrectly. To remedy that, I refer you to the thread:
Revelation: Last 3 Chapters
Post #3. It is short and only contains small summaries of larger pictures.

Blessings.



When does the "new heavens and a new earth" appear described in Isaiah 65:17-21, which causes our current earth "not [to] be remembered, nor come into mind"?

Paul

Clifton
May 16th 2008, 11:17 PM
When does the "new heavens and a new earth" appear described in Isaiah 65:17-21, which causes our current earth "not [to] be remembered, nor come into mind"?

Paul

You are spanning through 3 blocks of text and dropping off the 2 verses from the 3rd Block. Would you like to go through 5 blocks of exposition, which is from Isaiah 65:17-25, which shows that the people will have lives as long as the life of a tree (Isaiah 65:22), though verse 20 (which you did include) shows the minimum will be 100 years, and also, the last block which the last verse shows that wild beasts will be at peace with domesticated ones (65:25) (This is almost a repeat of Isa 11:6-9)? It would be nice in memory of the dog we lost last week (though not by no wild beast).

Would you like that? It would/will be fun! Let me know so I know how much coffee to prepare:D. In case you do, I will note the previous block before the 5 first (and fill in other contexts later, which would/will be quite lengthy and take the rest of this Month):

Isaiah 65:13-16 Complete Apostles' Bible
13 Therefore thus says the Lord: Behold, My servants shall eat, but you shall hunger; behold, My servants shall drink, but you shall thirst; behold, My servants shall rejoice, but you shall be ashamed;
14 behold, My servants shall exalt with joy, but you shall cry for the sorrow of your heart, and shall howl for the vexation of your spirit.
15 For you shall leave your name for a loathing to My chosen, and the Lord shall destroy you; but My servants shall be called by a new name,
16 which shall be blessed on the earth; for they shall bless the true God; and they that swear upon the earth shall swear by the true God; for they shall forget the former affliction, it shall not come into their mind.

I am glad you know that since God is so awesome and great, in being able to create the Heavens and Earth, and man, and all the glorious and mysteries of the universe, that He would certainly have no problem in transforming humans not to remember certain things, nor have certain things come into mind, nor take them to heart which is applied to a thing, the thought of which “ascends” within us, and with which we are inwardly occupied - and still not be zombies. Right? ;) Not to mention, the idea of people living from 100 years old to the life of a tree is not something that occurs AFTER this current physical Earth is sent away and is replaced by a brand new one, right?:P

BTW, there is a parallel: Jeremiah 3:16.

Blessings.

ShirleyFord
May 17th 2008, 12:21 AM
You are spanning through 3 blocks of text and dropping off the 2 verses from the 3rd Block. Would you like to go through 5 blocks of exposition, which is from Isaiah 65:17-25, which shows that the people will have lives as long as the life of a tree (Isaiah 65:22), though verse 20 (which you did include) shows the minimum will be 100 years, and also, the last block which the last verse shows that wild beasts will be at peace with domesticated ones (65:25) (This is almost a repeat of Isa 11:6-9)? It would be nice in memory of the dog we lost last week (though not by no wild beast).

Would you like that? It would/will be fun! Let me know so I know how much coffee to prepare:D. In case you do, I will note the previous block before the 5 first (and fill in other contexts later, which would/will be quite lengthy and take the rest of this Month):

Isaiah 65:13-16 Complete Apostles' Bible
13 Therefore thus says the Lord: Behold, My servants shall eat, but you shall hunger; behold, My servants shall drink, but you shall thirst; behold, My servants shall rejoice, but you shall be ashamed;
14 behold, My servants shall exalt with joy, but you shall cry for the sorrow of your heart, and shall howl for the vexation of your spirit.
15 For you shall leave your name for a loathing to My chosen, and the Lord shall destroy you; but My servants shall be called by a new name,
16 which shall be blessed on the earth; for they shall bless the true God; and they that swear upon the earth shall swear by the true God; for they shall forget the former affliction, it shall not come into their mind.

I am glad you know that since God is so awesome and great, in being able to create the Heavens and Earth, and man, and all the glorious and mysteries of the universe, that He would certainly have no problem in transforming humans not to remember certain things, nor have certain things come into mind, nor take them to heart which is applied to a thing, the thought of which “ascends” within us, and with which we are inwardly occupied - and still not be zombies. Right? ;) Not to mention, the idea of people living from 100 years old to the life of a tree is not something that occurs AFTER this current physical Earth is sent away and is replaced by a brand new one, right?:P

BTW, there is a parallel: Jeremiah 3:16.

Blessings.

But when and how does the new earth that Isaiah prophecies about come about?

Is 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Is 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

fellowservant
May 17th 2008, 12:32 AM
Daniel's beasts represent ancient wicked kings/kingdoms that are long gone. These are tributaries of the overall beast kingdom.

The beast in Rev represents that overall spirit of antichrist that has existed from the beginning. It is destroyed at Christ's Coming.

Paul

Paul

Read all of Daniel seven, the interpretation of the vision as well. There is a lot more to it, than just a bunch of old long gone kings.



The beast of revelation is a man, he has a kingdom and a seat in it.


Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.


I don't see how only a spirit of antichrist, fits the above scriptures.


God bless

RogerW
May 17th 2008, 12:39 AM
Here we must pay attention to detail.

"at the last day" in the last day" is after all "a day" of "the last days."

Luke 17:26 gives the day of Christ as being many 24 hour days.

Also-

Christ spoke of two groups of people who are saved in John 5.

One group of the saved who DO NOT come into judgment,(being judged progressively before they die) these are in the first resurrection near the beginning of the thousand years--

Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, The one who hears My Word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Joh 5:25 Truly, truly, I say to you that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and the ones hearing will live.


The other group of the saved who do come into THE judgment, that is the

sheep and goats after the thousand years---

Joh 5:27 And He also gave authority to Him to execute judgment, for He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice.
Joh 5:29 And they will come out, the ones having done good into a resurrection of life; and the ones having practiced evil into a resurrection of judgment.

Greetings Merton,

You are missing the first resurrection of the dead in John 5. You are correct John 5 does speak of two resurrections. The first is the spiritual resurrection when the spiritually dead hear the voice of the Son of God and live, these have now passed from spiritual death to life everlasting.

Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

In the second resurrection, at the coming of Christ all who are in the graves; e.g. physical bodies, are resurrected. At the last trump those who have done good (in Christ) will be raised a glorious incorruptible, immortal body when death will be no more. But those who have practiced evil to Judgment and eternal torment.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Compare those resurrected for Judgment. Since none of them had part in the first resurrection, they are Judged according to their works and receive the second death; e.g. the lake of fire.

Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Paul here is not writing to a corpse (physically dead). He is writing to those who were spiritually dead in trespasses and sins. Those who had once walked according to the course and power of this world, who were once children of disobedience. BUT, God Who is rich in mercy and love has made us alive together with Christ, and has raised us up together with Him. In the fullness of time He will show the exceeding riches of His grace through Christ Jesus when our bodies are resurrected immortal and incorruptible. This passage speaks of the first resurrection which is spiritual.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

There is no progressive Judgment for those who have part in the first (spiritual) resurrection. For they have passed from Judgment to eternal life. The first resurrection takes place throughout the gospel/church era or during the millennial reign, when many are resurrected to spiritual life through the proclamation of the gospel. The second resurrection comes in the fullness of time, when our physical bodies are resurrected to receive immortal, incorruptible, everlasting life, or the Judgment and the lake of fire.

Many Blessings,
RW

Clifton
May 17th 2008, 01:51 AM
But when and how does the new earth that Isaiah prophecies about come about?

Is 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Is 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
And Isaiah 34:4 as well?

Isaiah 34:4 Complete Apostles' Bible
4 And all the powers of the heavens shall melt, and the sky shall be rolled up like a scroll; and all the stars shall fall like leaves from a vine, and as leaves fall from a fig tree.

If I knew that, I would know when the final phase of the Second Advent begins, or be in the Great Tribulation and be aware of what is taking place.

Maybe I am taking it for granted that I am an old geezer, thus, over the years have increased in vocabulary and terminologies (especially Biblical) that is taking others time to acquire (i.e. years). I can understand that. Again, the term "new heavens and the new earth" can mean different ones and does not always necessary mean 100% different. The context will show that. Do you assume when you see these phrases they represent a totally brand new Earth and Heavens, meaning, the totality of this current physical Earth has been sent away? You know, a scorched Earth can be called a "new Earth", meaning a different one, but with the same internals.

When all the powers of the heavens shall melt, and the sky shall be rolled up like a scroll, and it will be unrolled - Worship of elements in the sky will be worshiped no more, say, like the Greeks did, or as even as some today do with stars and so on (like for Horoscopes, which is a major no-no). This will not occur in the Millennium, and as for afterwards, in the Eternal Abode, it will not be an issue.

The first two sections Isaiah are prophetic orations, with he intentionally closed the third section with this terrible picture of their want of peace. Isaiah consists of twenty-seven orations. The whole book has to be read, more than once, and studied in its contexts.

Maybe I should quote The Hebrew Experts Johann (C.F.) Keil (1807-1888) & Franz Delitzsch (1813-1890) and their K&D commentary on the Hebrew Scriptures[?]. Are you aware of various issues coming for the Millennium? For Isa 65:25, with its vision of shalom in nature, is harking back to God’s original intentions for his creation, intentions which Gen 6:9-11 posit were not being fulfilled prior to the flood - be it a literal 1000 years or non-literal. Most of us would be more than happy to participate in the original plan before reaching the Eternal Abode, especially since it will be better than now.

I'm about the fix a peanut butter sandwich - want one? :P

Blessings.

wpm
May 17th 2008, 01:54 AM
But when and how does the new earth that Isaiah prophecies about come about?

Is 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Is 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

So, when does the "new heavens and a new earth" appear described in Isaiah 65:17-21, which causes our current earth "not [to] be remembered, nor come into mind"?

Paul

Raybob
May 17th 2008, 06:21 PM
An army is an army, you can only have so many people in it at a time.

If all the wicked are destroyed at the second coming. Who will Christ reign over with a rod of iron during the Millenium?


Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.



The "he" in Rev. 2:27 is Jesus. Jesus smashes the nations to bits (broken to shivers). Saints overcome and are with Him at the smashing (see Rev.19).

Your question to Paul is implying that anyone will survive on this earth after Jesus returns. According to Revelation 19, ALL men die, great and small, not just some men at a battle but all, "great and small".

Rev 19:18-21 That ye may eat ...the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. ... And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Raybob

Merton
May 18th 2008, 01:09 AM
The "he" in Rev. 2:27 is Jesus. Jesus smashes the nations to bits (broken to shivers). Saints overcome and are with Him at the smashing (see Rev.19).

Your question to Paul is implying that anyone will survive on this earth after Jesus returns. According to Revelation 19, ALL men die, great and small, not just some men at a battle but all, "great and small".

Rev 19:18-21 That ye may eat ...the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. ... And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Raybob



Most all, if not all of the events of Rev. are described in the OT.

Rev. contains the endings as Genesis contains the beginnings.

The book of Isaiah contains much of the story of the endings of apostacies both of OT Israel and of the latter days apostacy of the church and what shall be there after.

It is easy to mix that which followed OT Israel with that which will follow the present age of the churches.

An honest apraisal of events and conditions of our time and their comparing with the bible promises would show that the best of the Kingdom of God on this present earth is yet to come.

Both worshippers of flesh Israel and hyper spiritualists are in error.


1Co 4:8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
1Co 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
1Co 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honorable, but we are despised.
1Co 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwelling place;
1Co 4:12 And labor, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
1Co 4:13 Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, andare the offscouring of all things unto this day.
1Co 4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet haveye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1Co 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
1Co 4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timothy, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
1Co 4:18 Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you.
1Co 4:19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.
1Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
1Co 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?


This age is entirely different to the age to come upon this present earth.--

Isa 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
Isa 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
Isa 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
Isa 60:4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
Isa 60:5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
Isa 60:6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall show forth the praises of the LORD.
Isa 60:7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.
Isa 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
Isa 60:9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
Isa 60:10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favor have I had mercy on thee.
Isa 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings maybe brought.
Isa 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

Merton

Merton
May 18th 2008, 01:51 AM
Greetings Merton,

You are missing the first resurrection of the dead in John 5. You are correct John 5 does speak of two resurrections. The first is the spiritual resurrection when the spiritually dead hear the voice of the Son of God and live, these have now passed from spiritual death to life everlasting.


The receiving of the Holy Spirit and subsequent learned obedience to God through it, is the guarantee of partaking in the first resurrection.

Christ was not resurrected in stages, neither are we.

A resurrected spirit can not live directly in an old body but by/through faith, and the evidence of the experience of every believer is that the old spirit still lives in these old bodies and able to assert itself upon ones life in denyimng the will of the Spirit from above.

The insistence that the believer is now a possesser of a resurrected spirit other than the indwelling of the Spirit which dwelt in Christ, is a direct denial of the need for the exercise of faith between the new from above and the old still existing.





In the second resurrection, at the coming of Christ all who are in the graves; e.g. physical bodies, are resurrected. At the last trump those who have done good (in Christ) will be raised a glorious incorruptible, immortal body when death will be no more. But those who have practiced evil to Judgment and eternal torment.

Scripture denies that proposition.


1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The all of this chapter does not refer to all of mankind but only to those who are in Christ--


1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

.
Compare those resurrected for Judgment. Since none of them had part in the first resurrection, they are Judged according to their works and receive the second death; e.g. the lake of fire.


Tell me how the believers of the OT had partaken in the resurrection, as you suppose it to be, if Christ had not yet made it possible?


Joh 7:37 And in the last day of the great feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
Joh 7:38 The one believing into Me, as the Scripture said, Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 But He said this concerning the Spirit, whom the ones believing into Him were about to receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of the One having raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One having raised the Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies live through the indwelling of His Spirit in you.


You would have no salvation possible for the OT believers, and for many since, because by your view all in the second resurrection at the last judgment must go into hell.

However many sheep are at this last judgment, where the book of life is also opened, and the sheep enter into the Kingdom for the first time while the tares go into hellfire. (Mat.25).



There is no progressive Judgment for those who have part in the first (spiritual) resurrection. For they have passed from Judgment to eternal life. The first resurrection takes place throughout the gospel/church era or during the millennial reign, when many are resurrected to spiritual life through the proclamation of the gospel. The second resurrection comes in the fullness of time, when our physical bodies are resurrected to receive immortal, incorruptible, everlasting life, or the Judgment and the lake of fire.

Many Blessings,
RW

Paul the apostle disagrees with you--


2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
2Ti 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.



Phi 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.


Merton.

Merton
May 18th 2008, 02:09 AM
Paul[/quote]


So, when does the "new heavens and a new earth" appear described in Isaiah 65:17-21, which causes our current earth "not [to] be remembered, nor come into mind"?

Paul


The current conditions of the earth and its present system of rule is to be replaced by these in the millennium which can in no way describe condition now, or that of the eternal dwelling place of the righteous after the last judgment.


Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

------------------
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice forever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die a hundred years old; but the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.



Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

---------------

-Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

We have to be careful in our reading of scripture.

Merton.

Clifton
May 18th 2008, 02:36 AM
Paul

The current conditions of the earth and its present system of rule is to be replaced by these in the millennium which can in no way describe condition now, or that of the eternal dwelling place of the righteous after the last judgment.


Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

------------------
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice forever inthat which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die a hundred years old; but the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shallbe the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.



Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

---------------

-Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

We have to be careful in our reading of scripture.

Merton.




:amen:

There are 5 blocks of texts in the end of Isaiah 65:
Isa 65:17-19
Isa 65:20
Isa 65:21-23
Isa 64:24
Isa 64:25

It was not unusual to have "breaks" in areas of scripture discourses (kind of like, "Remember", "BTW", "Don't forget", and so interruptions) of things to happen later in the future, and bounce back and forth between different issues than it is today;

Perhaps an easy example should suffice:

Luke 3:16-22 Complete Apostles' Bible
16 John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire;
17 whose winnowing shovel is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His threshing floor, and will gather the wheat into His barn; but the chaff He will burn up with unquenchable fire."
18 And with many other exhortations he proclaimed the good news to the people.
19 But Herod the tetrarch, being rebuked by him concerning Herodias, his brother's wife, and for all the evils which Herod had done,
20 he also added this to all his other sins, and locked up John in the prison.
21 Now it came to pass that when all the people were baptized, that Jesus also was baptized, and was praying, that the heaven was opened;
22 and the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came out of heaven, saying, "You are My beloved Son; in You I have found delight."

I ASSUME that no one is reading this "as if" John Baptize Christ with Water in Prison, and that the river did not flow through the prison! If that scripture example does not work, perhaps an example of parents planning the future of their children will work and make it clear[?].:hmm:

Blessings.

wpm
May 18th 2008, 04:07 AM
Paul




The current conditions of the earth and its present system of rule is to be replaced by these in the millennium which can in no way describe condition now, or that of the eternal dwelling place of the righteous after the last judgment.


Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

------------------
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice forever inthat which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die a hundred years old; but the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shallbe the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.



Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

---------------

-Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

We have to be careful in our reading of scripture.

Merton.

[/quote]

So this "new heavens and a new earth" comes 1,000 yrs before your second "new heavens and a new earth"?

Paul

Raybob
May 18th 2008, 09:46 AM
Most all, if not all of the events of Rev. are described in the OT.

Rev. contains the endings as Genesis contains the beginnings.



Actually both Revelation and Genesis contain much more than what is interpreted plainly. Genesis, in more than one place, shows prophecy of the coming Lord some 4000 years after the beginnings.

Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Just the same way, I believe Revelation speaks of, to John in first century, " things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter" as Jesus put it so well in Rev. 1. Only one of those three things is future to first century.

Raybob

Clifton
May 18th 2008, 03:48 PM
The current conditions of the earth and its present system of rule is to be replaced by these in the millennium which can in no way describe condition now, or that of the eternal dwelling place of the righteous after the last judgment.


Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

------------------
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice forever inthat which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die a hundred years old; but the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shallbe the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.



Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

---------------

-Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


So this "new heavens and a new earth" comes 1,000 yrs before your second "new heavens and a new earth"?

Paul
I do not see any clauses like "then", "after that", "then after that" preceding in any of the verses you quoted. Do I err in thinking you are inserting such clauses into there yourself? Since you HAVE quoted from Isaiah, does this mean you DO accept Isaiah, or do you just think you are pointing out errors? FTR, I began learning Hebrew 27 years ago, so I should let you know there are Hebrew Constants that shows "breaks" in the text - but that does not matter, there has never been a world wide "rule", or even a world wide commonality that any book must be written in a 'chronological' matter. Often "things to come" where and inserted beforehand, especially when it comes to better or comforting things to come;

Even from Genesis 8:22, with the words used, "While earth remains...",
we know that this current physical Earth will not be here forever, and it does not mean that the texts preceding it means the world is gone;

Have you read 2 Peter 3:5-7?

For this they willfully forget, that there were heavens from of old, and an earth compacted out of water and amid water, by the word of God; by which means the world that then was, being overflowed in water, perished: but the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. (2 Peter 3:5-7 UPDV).

When we rightly divide the scriptures, we see that "new", just like in English, can mean "different".

Blessings.

Raybob
May 19th 2008, 08:03 AM
Have you read 2 Peter 3:5-7?

For this they willfully forget, that there were heavens from of old, and an earth compacted out of water and amid water, by the word of God; by which means the world that then was, being overflowed in water, perished: but the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. (2 Peter 3:5-7 UPDV).

When we rightly divide the scriptures, we see that "new", just like in English, can mean "different".

Blessings.


I take it you must not believe the next three verses in that passage that state, "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."


You honestly don't believe that the elements will melt. Is that correct? Maybe I'm just not understanding what you are saying in reply to Paul.

Raybob

Clifton
May 19th 2008, 06:32 PM
I take it you must not believe the next three verses in that passage that state, "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

I see and am well aware of the paragraph of v.9-10 (v.8 is a paragraph on its own, though is part of a larger context). There are variances between the Greek Archetypes on verse 10 (i.e. "burned up" versus "laid bare" {literally, "found"}), but I will note that the Greek "holokleros" (i.e. "whole", "entire", "totally") is not present there. So it does not mean the "whole" physical globe will be demolished.

The thrust of my point in quoting 2 Peter 3:5-7 is that when words like 'new" (and "old" as well) are used, is that they do not "automatically" refer to something totally or entirely "destroyed" in the physical or object sense. It can mean "something different"... such a meaning is used in this manner in English as well.


You honestly don't believe that the elements will melt. Is that correct? Maybe I'm just not understanding what you are saying in reply to Paul.On the Greek word where "elements" is used, you may want to refer to your resources for the Greek Word "stoicheion" Strong's 4747. Consider it like "ordinances", "rudiments", etc..

I believe this refers to events in Revelation 8 and/or that preceding the Millennium, as some "cleansing" (or whatever the better term might be) for the Earth for those that will be present in it. This could refer to the "rolling up like a scroll and unrolling" we are told about in the Hebrew Scriptures. One idea there was so that no one would be worshiping things in the skies we see now;

After that, The Millennium. The Book of Revelation in the last 3 chapters (though they be badly disordered and out of sequence) shows us that this current physical Earth is 'sent away', and after that has 'fled away', then the "new" (kainos) will come. This is in other ancient texts as well.

On the word "melt", it is kind of funny (in an odd way) to Greek Teachers and Students that the Greek word "luo", Strong's #3089, underlies that English word there. This is the main Greek word that Greek teachers "burn out" students on (excuse the pun). It is used for example charts of conjugations of verbs, and more. For example, the conjugation of "luo" used in 2 Peter 3:10 is "luTHehsontai". Primarily, it literally means "loosen", etc..

I hope that helps - at least a little bit.;)

Blessings.

wpm
May 19th 2008, 06:58 PM
I see and am well aware of the paragraph of v.9-10 (v.8 is a paragraph on its own, though is part of a larger context). There are variances between the Greek Archetypes on verse 10 (i.e. "burned up" versus "laid bare" {literally, "found"}), but I will note that the Greek "holokleros" (i.e. "whole", "entire", "totally") is not present there. So it does not mean the "whole" physical globe will be demolished.

The thrust of my point in quoting 2 Peter 3:5-7 is that when words like 'new" (and "old" as well) are used, is that they do not "automatically" refer to something totally or entirely "destroyed" in the physical or object sense. It can mean "something different"... such a meaning is used in this manner in English as well.

On the Greek word where "elements" is used, you may want to refer to your resources for the Greek Word "stoicheion" Strong's 4747. Consider it like "ordinances", "rudiments", etc..

I believe this refers to events in Revelation 8 and/or that preceding the Millennium, as some "cleansing" (or whatever the better term might be) for the Earth for those that will be present in it. This could refer to the "rolling up like a scroll and unrolling" we are told about in the Hebrew Scriptures. One idea there was so that no one would be worshiping things in the skies we see now;

After that, The Millennium. The Book of Revelation in the last 3 chapters (though they be badly disordered and out of sequence) shows us that this current physical Earth is 'sent away', and after that has 'fled away', then the "new" (kainos) will come. This is in other ancient texts as well.

On the word "melt", it is kind of funny (in an odd way) to Greek Teachers and Students that the Greek word "luo", Strong's #3089, underlies that English word there. This is the main Greek word that Greek teachers "burn out" students on (excuse the pun). It is used for example charts of conjugations of verbs, and more. For example, the conjugation of "luo" used in 2 Peter 3:10 is "luTHehsontai". Primarily, it literally means "loosen", etc..

I hope that helps - at least a little bit.;)

Blessings.

We should note, the original text relating to 2 Peter 3:10-13 is even more fiery and destructive than the KJV wording. It suggests: “the day of the Lord will arrive as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away (or) perish with a great noise, and the elements shall be loosed by being set on fire, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up utterly (or) consumed wholly. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, loosened (or) broke up … Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, melted (or) loosed, and the elements shall melt by being set on fire?”

The earth (gee) here is the ground, the land, the solid part of the globe. The word katakakeesetai used here in the original denotes complete destruction. It means to be utterly burned up or wholly consumed.

We see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The word en is used 2,831 times in Scripture and is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” or “within” throughout. Significantly, it is not translated as ‘near,’ ‘close to’ or ‘close by’ in any of these references. We must pause for one moment and ask an important question, “in which” what? Wherever one locates the day of the Lord we surely know it arrives “as a thief in the night” (or suddenly) “in which” certain things occur. What are these things that accompany the arrival of the day of the Lord? The above reading demonstrates how the day of the Lord “will come” suddenly “as a thief in the night; in the which”:

1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

And continues, “seeing then that all these things (that is 1-4) shall be luomenoonordissolved / burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The old order of affairs is completely consumed by fire in a climactic conflagration in order to make way for the new eternal state. One cannot imagine how the Holy Spirit could have made the awful nature and full extent of God’s judgment any plainer to the human mind in this passage. This passage agrees totally with the all-consummating character of every other explicit Second Coming passage in Scripture; the day of the Lord sees the immediate destruction of the old heavens, elements and old earth, and the introduction of the “new heavens and a new earth” (2 Peter 3:13).

Paul

Clifton
May 20th 2008, 02:19 AM
We should note, the original text relating to 2 Peter 3:10-13 is even more fiery and destructive than the KJV wording. It suggests: “the day of the Lord will arrive as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away (or) perish with a great noise, and the elements shall be loosed by being set on fire, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up utterly (or) consumed wholly. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, loosened (or) broke up … Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, melted (or) loosed, and the elements shall melt by being set on fire?”

The earth (gee) here is the ground, the land, the solid part of the globe. The word katakakeesetai used here in the original denotes complete destruction. It means to be utterly burned up or wholly consumed.

We see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The word en is used 2,831 times in Scripture and is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” or “within” throughout. Significantly, it is not translated as ‘near,’ ‘close to’ or ‘close by’ in any of these references. We must pause for one moment and ask an important question, “in which” what? Wherever one locates the day of the Lord we surely know it arrives “as a thief in the night” (or suddenly) “in which” certain things occur. What are these things that accompany the arrival of the day of the Lord? The above reading demonstrates how the day of the Lord “will come” suddenly “as a thief in the night; in the which”:

1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

And continues, “seeing then that all these things (that is 1-4) shall be luomenoonordissolved / burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The old order of affairs is completely consumed by fire in a climactic conflagration in order to make way for the new eternal state. One cannot imagine how the Holy Spirit could have made the awful nature and full extent of God’s judgment any plainer to the human mind in this passage. This passage agrees totally with the all-consummating character of every other explicit Second Coming passage in Scripture; the day of the Lord sees the immediate destruction of the old heavens, elements and old earth, and the introduction of the “new heavens and a new earth” (2 Peter 3:13).

Paul
All this effort by someone and they did not even note the word starting out in verse 13, in English, "BUT" (in the Greek, the second word, "de"), expressing what follows is something different than what was just conveyed. One little word! The text shows that the “new” is something later and look for. One little word omitted (or changed?)!

Incredible! What did the Greek “de” become in this spin? “So you see…” ???

One little word which probably would have not been missed if it were read in a newspaper. There is "commentary" of scripture and there is "adding" to scripture, and woah, a whole lot was added here and changed that is not in the GNTs. I think the Hyper-Preterism “spin” on these sections of 2 Peter are less destructive. At least they did not roam over the word “"BUT" – they just feel that this “new heaven and earth” came about in 70 A.D.

And did you not noticed that I mentioned that the Greek "holokleros" (i.e. "whole", "entire", "totally") is not present there? You quoted my statement with that. There is nothing in the text that even suggests that the “inner” parts of the Earth are "totally" done away with, and the other words in the context of 2 Peter 3:10-12 would not be there, because the various words would not be needed, and not to mention, sound tongue-twisted in Greek.

I am just familiar with the Greek “En” as I am my own name – it was one of the first 9 words I had to learn back in the 1990’s (John 1:1). It is a preposition and it’s meaning is determined by what follows it, and the context. And "Ge" (pronounced "ghay") does not mean the whole inner globe. And it is not "Gee" either.

Let me give you a heads-up about this “Selective Processing” you posted (it was not by anyone acquainted well with Greek, but just looked up a few Greek words and lexicons)… How to define one Greek word depends on the surrounding Greek words and context – and that is why when you look at a lexicon, you see various definitions there and outlined – you can’t just choose any of them – that is for the concordance. Just like if you are reading an English book and can across a word you look up in the English Dictionary with an outline of various meanings and words, and know which one to use by the context of the page of the book.

I provided you 2 Peter 3:5-7 to perhaps get a feel of words like “new” and “old” – it is the same in English – English Bibles are done in relation to the English Dictionary, so you can look the English words out of the Bible;

I will be more than happy to provide a BALANCED analytical breakdown of the blocks of curiosity of 2 Peter 3, but not soon – maybe June or so, God permitting. I did one years ago when coming across hyper-preterists, but I can tell you is 2 Peter 3:10 is for The Millennium, as I have already posted here in this forum, post # 1630900;

Years ago we used the term “renovation” in relation to what will happen to this Earth prior to the Millennium. The term remains applicable.

Well, you have almost answered my questions, as to whether or not you accept the all of the Book of Revelation and one or more books of the Prophets in the Tanak (OT). Either you reject them in part or whole, or you just pit “scripture against scripture” to support some position(s) instead of rightly dividing them and balancing them out. And what I mean by that, is when recognizing verses, recognize the others to, and keep the integral of The Bible intact and balanced.

It is easier to pull the wool over the eyes of Judge Judy than it is me. :P

Blessings. But if it makes you feel better, permit unto me to let you know, that when you put an Alka-Setzer or some Benefiber in your drink, and it “dissolves”, there will still be something there in your drink to benefit you.:D

Blessings.

The Village Idiot
May 20th 2008, 04:14 AM
"The creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body" (Ro 8:21-23).

Based on the above reading, some suggest that creation itself will be participate in redemption by being "freed" from slavery to corruption into the glory of the children of God. How this squares with the Petrine text may not be immediately apparent. And to that we can add this:


"This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain" (He 12:27).

The outlook in this text seems to differ both from the Romans text and from Peter. And again--how it all fits together is not immediately clear.

Perhaps what is indicated is judgment upon and the final removal of all that offends God, whether that is pictured as an exodus/baptism (freed from slavery to corruption), a skaking, or fervent heat (associated with fire, which is an image of judgment).

Jesus said that heaven and earth will pass away, although his word will remain forever (Mt 5:18; 24:35). That saying may be informed by the following:


"Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away, but you are the same, and your years have no end" (Ps 102:25-27).

If so, we have yet another image for the end of the heavens and earth, an image not of destruction, but of changing, such as we would discard a worn out robe. There may be other images, but these are what come from the "top of my head."

This suggests to me that a little care might be helpful here. Rather than raising question about whether others believe or do not believe Scripture, perhaps we should become better students of Scripture.

Oh yes! Heaven is God's throne, and earth is his footstool (Is 66:1), and he fills heaven and earth by his presence (Je 23:24). So--will the place consecrated as his sanctuary by his presence perish?


"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever" (Ps 45:6).

wpm
May 20th 2008, 05:18 AM
Based on the above reading, some suggest that creation itself will be participate in redemption by being "freed" from slavery to corruption into the glory of the children of God. How this squares with the Petrine text may not be immediately apparent. And to that we can add this:

The outlook in this text seems to differ both from the Romans text and from Peter. And again--how it all fits together is not immediately clear.

Perhaps what is indicated is judgment upon and the final removal of all that offends God, whether that is pictured as an exodus/baptism (freed from slavery to corruption), a skaking, or fervent heat (associated with fire, which is an image of judgment).

Jesus said that heaven and earth will pass away, although his word will remain forever (Mt 5:18; 24:35). That saying may be informed by the following:

If so, we have yet another image for the end of the heavens and earth, an image not of destruction, but of changing, such as we would discard a worn out robe. There may be other images, but these are what come from the "top of my head."

This suggests to me that a little care might be helpful here. Rather than raising question about whether others believe or do not believe Scripture, perhaps we should become better students of Scripture.

Oh yes! Heaven is God's throne, and earth is his footstool (Is 66:1), and he fills heaven and earth by his presence (Je 23:24). So--will the place consecrated as his sanctuary by his presence perish?

Good thoughts.

Hebrews 12:25-29 declares, “See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.”

This passage is an interesting passage and one rarely quoted when considering the Lord’s final climactic Advent. God speaks of one final future shaking of “the earth” and “also heaven.” This seems to be referring to the final renovation of this sin-cursed earth, which sees “the removing of those things that are shaken” –namely the things that relate to decay and corruption – “as of things that are made.” The result being, “that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.” The bondage of corruption will be totally removed by the final climactic activity of the Lord. All that remains is that which is not scared by corruption.

The same God who spoke creation into being is the same God who will one day declare this current corrupt arrangement finished. This voice that has previously “shook the earth” when manifested in power and glory, will one day bring this scene of time to an end by way of fire. It is not just that this earth will be destroyed, but also the wicked on it. As is common with most Second Coming narratives, there is an inherent warning attached to this event that reveals the solemnity of the day of final judgment for the unrighteous. The Holy Spirit warns: “See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven.” The day of opportunity is fast closing. The day of wrath is drawing near.

Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown explain in their scholarly Commentary, that God has “Promised” at “His coming to break up the present order of things is to the ungodly a terror, to the godly a promise, the fulfillment of which they look for with joyful hope ... The shaking began at His first coming: it will be completed at His second coming, prodigies in nature accompanying the overthrow of all kingdoms that oppose the Messiah. [`owd 'achat ma`at hiy'] 'It is yet one little' - i.e., a single brief space until the series of movements begins, ending in Messiah's advent. Not merely the earth, as at the Sinaitic covenant, but heaven also, is to be shaken.”

Interestingly, the writer to the Hebrews adds a vital ending: “For our God is a consuming fire.” This is a significant statement to finish up with. It also correlates with many other passages that tell us that this concluding event will be fiery. This is the means by which corruption will be purged from this current globe of ours. What replaces this fiery purge is a glorious kingdom that is both righteous and eternal. The writer sums this all up by reminding the elect of God that they have a glorious hope: “Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.”

Paul

Raybob
May 20th 2008, 08:36 AM
One little word which probably would have not been missed if it were read in a newspaper. There is "commentary" of scripture and there is "adding" to scripture, and woah, a whole lot was added here and changed that is not in the GNTs. I think the Hyper-Preterism “spin” on these sections of 2 Peter are less destructive. At least they did not roam over the word “"BUT" – they just feel that this “new heaven and earth” came about in 70 A.D.



It's quite true that preterists don't believe that this earth will ever dissolve. Preterists, and I guess you too, believe that the "new earth" is not really a new earth but the very same one we have now only cleansed. Preterits believe it happened already and you seem to believe it will happen in the future. I personally, believe it makes more sense to know some things in the bible must have to be literal to fit with what other scriptures explain about the same thing.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

I know that the new earth can't resemble this one at all because the new one has no need for the sun like this current earth does for it's existence.

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Raybob

Clifton
May 20th 2008, 02:30 PM
It's quite true that preterists don't believe that this earth will ever dissolve. Preterists, and I guess you too, believe that the "new earth" is not really a new earth but the very same one we have now only cleansed. Preterits believe it happened already and you seem to believe it will happen in the future. I personally, believe it makes more sense to know some things in the bible must have to be literal to fit with what other scriptures explain about the same thing.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

I know that the new earth can't resemble this one at all because the new one has no need for the sun like this current earth does for it's existence.

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Raybob

Yes, I am acquainted with the Preterist Interpretations (at least as they were a few years ago).

Scripture does indeed teach us that this current physical Earth and skies will be gone - I term that as being beyond the physical and into the metaphysical. But there are times when a term like "new earth" might be used and mean "different", and not mean the whole inner and all is gone. Such a case can be made for after the time of the Flood.

As for this current physical Earth, I see it as something that will be renovated (or "purged") in the future, then a Heavenly Jerusalem coming down on desolation, and there will be a "period of time" when things are restored to a time as it was in the beginning and intended;

After that the Judgment, then this current physical Earth is sent away, then there will be a totally new Earth - A Brand New Earth in the whole, and the Eternal Abode. The children of God were told and reminded of this in the past. But I think I will go over to the Controversial Forum and ask Fenris what Judaism's take is on that (if for nothing else, at least for curiousity:P). I probably asked someone from Judaism about this in the past couple of decades, but do not remember what I was told.

Blessings.