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View Full Version : Amils - who are the "souls" in Rev. 20:4?



Hawk
May 7th 2008, 06:06 PM
Again, the subject line says it all...

“And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”
(Rev 20:4 NKJV)

Just wondering who you think these "souls" are. I have a few questions left in trying to understand the amil viewpoint and this is one of them...

Thanks so much!

Hawk

wpm
May 7th 2008, 06:16 PM
Again, the subject line says it all...

“And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”
(Rev 20:4 NKJV)

Just wondering who you think these "souls" are. I have a few questions left in trying to understand the amil viewpoint and this is one of them...

Thanks so much!

Hawk

The dead in Christ.

Paul

Hawk
May 7th 2008, 06:28 PM
Thanks again Paul!

Your answer makes me think of another couple of questions...

The condition of these "souls" that John sees are those who:

a) Have been "beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God"
b) Have "not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands"

So...

1) Do these souls include people like the Noah, Abraham, David, and Zechariah?

2) Who is the "beast", "his image", and this "mark" that these souls did not worship or take? Do all believers throughout history have this quality?

I see how this fits in a premil viewpoint but I'm trying to learn more about amil and am just having a hard time with this one...

Hawk

wpm
May 7th 2008, 07:34 PM
Thanks again Paul!

Your answer makes me think of another couple of questions...

The condition of these "souls" that John sees are those who:

a) Have been "beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God"
b) Have "not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands"

So...

1) Do these souls include people like the Noah, Abraham, David, and Zechariah?

2) Who is the "beast", "his image", and this "mark" that these souls did not worship or take? Do all believers throughout history have this quality?

I see how this fits in a premil viewpoint but I'm trying to learn more about amil and am just having a hard time with this one...

Hawk

I believe it is the antichrist spirit that takes a hold of every unsaved man from Cain and ultimately deludes them into believing a lie. At the time John wrote Revelation, five kings / kingdom’s were fallen, one was (which in John’s day was Rome), and one was still to come. This seventh, which was to come, and was to continue a short space, is the final reign of the beast (Satan’s overall kingdom), when Satan is loosed for a short period near Christ's Second Advent.

Revelation 17:8 continues, “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

Revelation 17:9-13 further enlarges, “The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

A plain reading of these passages prove that, whatever the beast truly represents, he / it was expressly in existence before the time that John received this symbolic revelation. The beast cannot therefore merely be a last few years end-time phenomenon, as some would have us believe. After all, he existed before John wrote Revelation. We learn through the apostle’s first century testimony that the beast expressly “was” (past tense). In fact, the passage mentions this fact three times (twice in verse 8, and once in verse 11). Therefore, he existed before John. He also existed at the time of John – who said of his day, the beast “is” (present tense). John then explained that the beast would continue after his day, saying it “shall” be (future tense). In fact, Scripture tells us that the beast, and the false prophet, will only finally be destroyed at the all-consummating Second Coming of the Lord, where they will be “cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone” (Revelation 19:20). Why would this world system be destroyed at Christ’s Coming and then re-emerge in a future millennium as the sand of the sea?

Paul

Reynolds357
May 7th 2008, 07:38 PM
Again, the subject line says it all...

“And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”
(Rev 20:4 NKJV)

Just wondering who you think these "souls" are. I have a few questions left in trying to understand the amil viewpoint and this is one of them...

Thanks so much!

Hawk
The martyrs throught History for the sake of the Gospel.

John146
May 7th 2008, 07:42 PM
Hawk,

Not all amils believe the same, for one thing. There are futurists, preterists, historicists and idealists among those who believe in amillennialism. But I know Paul and myself as well as Shirley Ford and maybe a few others here believe that the beast is basically the antichrist system or Satan's worldly system that has been around a long time. We can see in Revelation 17:8 that the beast was, is not, and yet is, and was to come. So, the beast was around even before John wrote the book, existed in some form at the time he wrote the book, and would arise again at some point in the future, presumably to the same state it was before it was and was not in John's day. People have been worshiping the beast and worshiping Satan for a long time now.

So, to answer your first question, yes, the souls include Noah, Abraham, David and all those guys.

To answer your second question, well, I already gave my view of the beast, so I'll just briefly say that I believe the mark of the beast is spiritual and has to do with one's thoughts and beliefs (forehead) and actions (right hand) and how they reflect allegiance to Satan and his worldwide beast empire (this reflection = the image of the beast).

Eric

VerticalReality
May 7th 2008, 07:55 PM
Hawk,

Not all amils believe the same, for one thing. There are futurists, preterists, historicists and idealists among those who believe in amillennialism. But I know Paul and myself as well as Shirley Ford and maybe a few others here believe that the beast is basically the antichrist system or Satan's worldly system that has been around a long time. We can see in Revelation 17:8 that the beast was, is not, and yet is, and was to come. So, the beast was around even before John wrote the book, existed in some form at the time he wrote the book, and would arise again at some point in the future, presumably to the same state it was before it was and was not in John's day. People have been worshiping the beast and worshiping Satan for a long time now.

So, to answer your first question, yes, the souls include Noah, Abraham, David and all those guys.

To answer your second question, well, I already gave my view of the beast, so I'll just briefly say that I believe the mark of the beast is spiritual and has to do with one's thoughts and beliefs (forehead) and actions (right hand) and how they reflect allegiance to Satan and his worldwide beast empire (this reflection = the image of the beast).

Eric

I suppose you could throw me in that camp as well . . . :D

Hawk
May 7th 2008, 08:16 PM
Eric and Paul, thanks so much for helping me understand your specific viewpoint (which is the one I was interested in as I am familiar with some of the others).

I'm going to hold off on answering the questions you've posed (I may do so in another thread) because I really just want to keep this thread to obtaining your take and understanding your viewpoint...

Paul, the passages you mentioned describe the beast well (I would have picked the same passages...) but what is your take on the "false prophet" and the "image" of the beast?

Just wondering if you could flesh out what an "image" of the antichrist spirit looks like, and how one can worship it. And if you have some insight on the "false prophet" and how it relates to the beast and the image of the beast, that'd be great as well.

Of course, as is your custom, throw in lots of supporting scriptures for me to help me understand it...





A plain reading of these passages prove that, whatever the beast truly represents, he / it was expressly in existence before the time that John received this symbolic revelation.


Interestingly enough, which we can address in another thread, a plain sense reading of Revelation 19 and 20 would seem to indicate that the millennium follows the second coming and events of Rev. 19... Even several works by Amils I have been looking at readily admit this. (Anthony Hoekema and William Hendriksen are the specific examples). But we'll save that for another thread :)

Hawk

White Spider
May 7th 2008, 08:34 PM
. . . We can see in Revelation 17:8 that the beast was, is not, and yet is, and was to come. So, the beast was around even before John wrote the book, existed in some form at the time he wrote the book, and would arise again at some point in the future . . .

Sorry to shorten your post, but to me you have forsaken the fact John is writing about a vision. And a vision could have taken him to a future place where the beast was, is not, and yet is, and is to come. It doesn't mean the beast was, is not, and yet is, and is to come in reality, but in the vision. Whether the vision was future based or not is debatable but I just think you should realize it's not as plain and simple as you make it out to be.

David Taylor
May 7th 2008, 08:42 PM
Again, the subject line says it all...

“And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”
(Rev 20:4 NKJV)

Just wondering who you think these "souls" are. I have a few questions left in trying to understand the amil viewpoint and this is one of them...

Thanks so much!

Hawk



The righteous dead-in-Christ of the ages; reigning in Heaven on thrones with Christ; awaiting the final judgment and resurrection of mankind before the eternal state is set.


The 'Beast' and all that goes with it, is a progressive battle spanning all ages; not just the final few years before the Lord's return; differentiating Satan's assault upon the Kingdom of God; and all of the wicked attacks he has, is, and will continue to make against God's people.

Revelation picks up on alot of the final stuff at the end; but it also includes alot of panoramic pictures of the entire historical shooting match as well.

John146
May 7th 2008, 09:02 PM
I suppose you could throw me in that camp as well . . . :D

Yes, of course. Sorry for the omission. :P

John146
May 7th 2008, 09:05 PM
Sorry to shorten your post, but to me you have forsaken the fact John is writing about a vision. And a vision could have taken him to a future place where the beast was, is not, and yet is, and is to come. It doesn't mean the beast was, is not, and yet is, and is to come in reality, but in the vision. Whether the vision was future based or not is debatable but I just think you should realize it's not as plain and simple as you make it out to be.

Okay then. I understand that pretty much the whole book is debatable (just read this forum), so I will just say that I'm going to stick with my understanding while respecting the fact that others can have different views. Despite what you just said, I still think it is as plain and simple as I make it out to be, but you are free to disagree, of course.

John146
May 7th 2008, 09:15 PM
Interestingly enough, which we can address in another thread, a plain sense reading of Revelation 19 and 20 would seem to indicate that the millennium follows the second coming and events of Rev. 19... Even several works by Amils I have been looking at readily admit this. (Anthony Hoekema and William Hendriksen are the specific examples). But we'll save that for another thread :)

Hawk

We can save that for another thread, like you said, but I was just wanted to say that my whole basis at one point in believing premil was the assumption that Rev 20 followed Rev 19 chronologically. That was it. Not Zechariah 14 or Isaiah 65 or anything like that. But as you probably saw with Hoeksema and Hendriksen (is More than Conquerors the book you're looking at?) my understanding of what scripture teaches on things like one general resurrection of all the dead, one day of judgment, and all unbelievers being destroyed when Christ returns forced me to take a closer look at Revelation 20. I had already believed that there were parallels within the book because I believe Christ returned right after the seventh and last trumpet of Revelation 11 as well as the time when the seventh vial is poured out in Revelation 16, and of course in Revelation 19 as well. So, then I realized that Rev 20 could be a parallel as well.

Clifton
May 7th 2008, 09:23 PM
Sorry to shorten your post, but to me you have forsaken the fact John is writing about a vision. And a vision could have taken him to a future place where the beast was, is not, and yet is, and is to come. It doesn't mean the beast was, is not, and yet is, and is to come in reality, but in the vision. Whether the vision was future based or not is debatable but I just think you should realize it's not as plain and simple as you make it out to be.
Bump Bump, as is the case when people are using different Bible Versions, Greek New Testaments, and Bibles based on the various Greek Archetypes. So I often have to provide some aid in clearing up some confusion and "why is it one person is not understanding another person, and vice-versa?";)

What most Christians across the world throughout history and have been used to is, and what most MSS (5000+) and Greek New Testaments that have been out, and are out, state to the effect of:

"The beast which you saw was, and is not, and is about to be ascending out of the bottomless pit and to be going away to destruction. And the ones dwelling on the earth will be amazed, whose names have not been written on the Scroll of Life from [the] laying of the foundation of [the] world [or, from [the] beginning of the creation of [the] universe], when they see the beast that was, and is not, and will come. Revelation 17:8 ALT

The TR (Textus Receptus) archetype is at odds with the MT (Majority Texts) archetype and the CT (Critical Texts) with this rendering.

For a listing of variants and difference between the 3 main archetypes in the Book of Revelation, you can access those at:

http://www.dtl.org/alt/variants/revelation.htm

On the above reference web page, the most significant variants and differences have the archetype identifier (MT. TR, or CT) emphasized in bold, example:

18:20 MT/ CT: the holy ones and the apostles – TR: the holy apostles

For the “preferred” and “alternate” readings for the Byzantine Textform, an MT archetype, for the The Book of Revelation in the Bible, you can access those at:

http://www.dtl.org/alt/byzantine/alt...gs/heb-rev.htm (http://www.dtl.org/alt/byzantine/alternate_readings/heb-rev.htm)

On that web page, the first reading given is the “preferred” readings, then, one or more “alternate” readings after the 2 forward slashes, “//”. This means the readings are closely divided among the numerous manuscripts. Also, it is up to the readers and translators whether they choose any given “alternative” readings. Example:

20:7 when the thousand years are completed, // after the thousand years,
IOW in that example:
PREFERRED READING: when the thousand years are completed,
ALTERNATE READING: after the thousand years

Take Revelation 21:1 for example. It appears that most English Bibles use the “alternate” reading, which may not look like much different in English, but in Greek, there is a difference.

21:1 went away // passed away

Blessings.

White Spider
May 7th 2008, 09:48 PM
I was using his words . . . I don't think different Bible versions came into play at all.

Let me put it this way.

Say I have a dream of the next president being sworn into office, but I can't tell who it is exactly. I ask a bystander in my dream and they answer. "The President you see survived an assassination attempt."

That doesn't mean our next president has survived an assassination attempt when I wake up, it may happen in the future.

Sorry to get the thread a bit off topic, Hawk is looking for amill views. I just wanted to show that it's not obvious that the beast was around before John wrote the book. :cool:

John146
May 7th 2008, 09:56 PM
I was using his words . . . I don't think different Bible versions came into play at all.

Let me put it this way.

Say I have a dream of the next president being sworn into office, but I can't tell who it is exactly. I ask a bystander in my dream and they answer. "The President you see survived an assassination attempt."

That doesn't mean our next president has survived an assassination attempt when I wake up, it may happen in the future.

Sorry to get the thread a bit off topic, Hawk is looking for amill views. I just wanted to show that it's not obvious that the beast was around before John wrote the book. :cool:

So, you are amil as well? Can you give a brief explanation of what you think Rev 17:8 means? Maybe you can just PM it to me if you don't want to get the thread off track.

wpm
May 7th 2008, 11:07 PM
Interestingly enough, which we can address in another thread, a plain sense reading of Revelation 19 and 20 would seem to indicate that the millennium follows the second coming and events of Rev. 19... Even several works by Amils I have been looking at readily admit this. (Anthony Hoekema and William Hendriksen are the specific examples). But we'll save that for another thread :)

Hawk

I don't know of anywhere that Anthony Hoekema or William Hendriksen suggested that "a plain sense reading of Revelation 19 and 20 would seem to indicate that the millennium follows the second coming." I think that they insinuate that a chronological approach to Rev would indicate that. But they, like me, do not see it as chronological.


Eric and Paul, thanks so much for helping me understand your specific viewpoint (which is the one I was interested in as I am familiar with some of the others).

I'm going to hold off on answering the questions you've posed (I may do so in another thread) because I really just want to keep this thread to obtaining your take and understanding your viewpoint...

Paul, the passages you mentioned describe the beast well (I would have picked the same passages...) but what is your take on the "false prophet" and the "image" of the beast?

Just wondering if you could flesh out what an "image" of the antichrist spirit looks like, and how one can worship it. And if you have some insight on the "false prophet" and how it relates to the beast and the image of the beast, that'd be great as well.

Of course, as is your custom, throw in lots of supporting scriptures for me to help me understand it...

I equate the second beast with the false prophet and take it to refer to false religion. I believe that the image of the beast is the outward manifestation of the world anti-Christ system within false religion (the false prophet). False religion will bow to the secular spirit of the day in the end. There will probably be unity amongst the religions apart from the true Church.

Revelation 13:11-18 tells us, “And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.”

Revelation 19:20 states, “And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.”

Revelation 20:10 states, “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

Paul

Clifton
May 8th 2008, 12:13 AM
The martyrs throught History for the sake of the Gospel.

That's been the general consensus - never knew of anything else myself.

It is the contention of some scholars and students, particularly of Britain (and learned from and influenced by them), that these martyrs will be the only ones to enter (revived into) the Kingdom Age, or "Millennial Age", and of course, get to be inside the 'beloved city' - as for the saints, alive and dead beforehand, are 'caught up' into the air, and will be in Heaven during that Kingdom age.

Now, my WDNT Greek Dictionary gives definitions then an exegesis for the definitions (most of the time) - looking at one of the Greek words for the English word 'resurrection' (and other words), it appears that the Greeks do not concur with the British (and etc.) side of this.

Isn't harmony just so wonderful?:P

Blessings.

Hawk
May 8th 2008, 12:58 AM
I equate the second beast with the false prophet and take it to refer to false religion. I believe that the image of the beast is the outward manifestation of the world anti-Christ system within false religion (the false prophet). False religion will bow to the secular spirit of the day in the end. There will probably be unity amongst the religions apart from the true Church.

Revelation 13:11-18 tells us, “And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.”

Revelation 19:20 states, “And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.”

Revelation 20:10 states, “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

Paul

Cool.

So correct me if I'm not following your thoughts here...

Those who take part in the first resurrection are those who have died in Christ, those who have not worshipped an antichrist system, those who have not worshipped the "image" of an antichrist system (of which a "false religion" arises out of), and those who do not take a "mark" by their actions or beliefs in such a system or religion.

All believers in Christ take part in this resurrection because it is a spiritual resurrection of the heart, with Christ being the firstfruits of the first resurrection.

Does that sound right?

If so, I'd love for you to flesh it out a bit more - practically, what does it look like for a human being to worship an antichrist system? And what is the "image" of the antichrist system?

This has been very helpful thus far in understanding your viewpoint better... Thanks so much Paul and Eric!

Hawk

wpm
May 8th 2008, 03:05 AM
Cool.

So correct me if I'm not following your thoughts here...

Those who take part in the first resurrection are those who have died in Christ, those who have not worshipped an antichrist system, those who have not worshipped the "image" of an antichrist system (of which a "false religion" arises out of), and those who do not take a "mark" by their actions or beliefs in such a system or religion.

All believers in Christ take part in this resurrection because it is a spiritual resurrection of the heart, with Christ being the firstfruits of the first resurrection.

Does that sound right?

If so, I'd love for you to flesh it out a bit more - practically, what does it look like for a human being to worship an antichrist system? And what is the "image" of the antichrist system?

This has been very helpful thus far in understanding your viewpoint better... Thanks so much Paul and Eric!

Hawk

You still have a little bit of Premil thinking colouring your analyse. I could be wrong, but are you attributing those who enjoy the first resurrection as only those in heaven? Regardless. this is my position:

The saints in heaven are the dead in Christ now (those who have had their part in Christ's first resurrection). The saints on earth now - like those that are said to be surrounded by Gog and Magog in Rev 20 - are the 'live in Christ' (those who have equally had their part in Christ's first resurrection). Both parties are reigning - in Christ. This is a positional thing. They reign because He reigns. The fact is, we all are seated in heavenly places.

Paul

Hawk
May 8th 2008, 03:17 AM
You still have a little bit of Premil thinking colouring your analyse. I could be wrong, but are you attributing those who enjoy the first resurrection as only those in heaven? Regardless. this is my position:

The saints in heaven are the dead in Christ now (those who have had their part in Christ's first resurrection). The saints on earth now - like those that are said to be surrounded by Gog and Magog in Rev 20 - are the 'live in Christ' (those who have equally had their part in Christ's first resurrection). Both parties are reigning - in Christ. This is a positional thing. They reign because He reigns. The fact is, we all are seated in heavenly places.

Paul

Gotcha!

Any thoughts on what it looks like for a human being to worship an antichrist system? And what is the "image" of the antichrist system?

Hawk

wpm
May 8th 2008, 05:20 AM
Gotcha!

Any thoughts on what it looks like for a human being to worship an antichrist system? And what is the "image" of the antichrist system?

Hawk

I feel it is someone that gives themselves over to the spirit of this world. The mark is Satan's final of ownership - namely the mark of reprobation. The image could be figurative language for the outward representation of everything that is evil in this world. That is not to say these aren't real evil vices that zap the unsaved, but that the rhetoric of Rev is symbolic of broader wealth of inticments.

Paul

ross3421
May 8th 2008, 08:41 AM
Again, the subject line says it all...

“And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”
(Rev 20:4 NKJV)

Just wondering who you think these "souls" are. I have a few questions left in trying to understand the amil viewpoint and this is one of them...

Thanks so much!

Hawk

In Rev 20 4-6 you two groups which are both Christians. Those in verse 4 are the martyred and then the "rest of the dead" are those asleep in Jesus. The martyred get immediate entrance while the rest have to wait until the first resurrection. We know the rest of the dead are a reference to Christians as they will be priest of God and will reign with him.

Mark

ross3421
May 8th 2008, 08:57 AM
Just wondering if you could flesh out what an "image" of the antichrist spirit looks like, and how one can worship it. And if you have some insight on the "false prophet" and how it relates to the beast and the image of the beast, that'd be great as well.



What is the image of God? spirit, invisible. Where does or has or will his spirit reign? From the throne within the sanctuary. Likewise the image of the beast is spirit and will reign and speak from this place. The following is previous thread of the matter.

================================================== =====

It is clear that the second Beast is to cause those who dwell on the earth to make an Image to the first Beast, the Beast which had one of it's 7 heads wounded. As I have previously shown though not all currently agree, the first Beast is the red dragon Satan and his kingdom and not a man. Compare Rev. 12:3,9 with 13:1. The second Beast is the "man" indwelt by the first.

It is important to understand that it is "to the Beast" and not "of the Beast" in which this Image is made. Thus this Image will not resemble a certain person but the word "to" as we shall see gives the meaning "for the Beast".

Those that dwell on the earth will make (BUILD) an Image FOR the Beast to dwell.


The Image is alive and speaks and is to be worshiped.

Again what or who is to be worshiped? Satan. We know that Satan is wanting the worship of God's creation and will deceive the nations into believing that his son is the most high not just some world dictator. Those that dwell on the earth will think they are in the presence of the Almighty and will think everlasting peace has come.

So after they build this Image the second Beast is able to make it speak and that those who do not worship the Image of the first Beast to be killed. Since this second Beast is claiming to be the most high he will reside in Jerusalem as I have shown to be Babylon and set himself in the Temple. Just as Christ as seen as the angel of the Lord will tell John to worship him but his father (Rev. 19:10) so to will the son of perdition (second beast) cause those that dwell on the earth to worship his father. Now thankfully, there will be those who will be wise and not worship the image but however will be killed.

Where is this Image located? Where would those go to worship this Image? Again Babylon is the city Jerusalem which has a king claiming to be Christ and telling those that dwell on the earth to worship.... UM. You guessed it, in the city.

The Image will be located in the City ; Jerusalem.


The Temple and its Glory

The Image is to be of the Most High as those who dwell on the earth are to worship this image they have built and believe it is God but it is Satan. Has anyone seen the face of God? No. What is God's Image? His physical Image is invisible however seen within the sanctuary where the glory of the Lord God resides.

Fire is called down from heaven to fill the Temple with Glory.

This was the key to understanding the image of the beast. The second beast calls down fire heaven to earth in the sight of men which is taken that he can do miracles but it is for a much grander purpose. Why and where did this fire go?

2ch 7:1Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the house.2ch 7:2And the priests could not enter into the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD had filled the LORD'S house.2ch 7:3And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the LORD upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshiped, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.


The Image of jealousy

Eze 8:3And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.

Notice the location of this "Image" for it is in the temple in Jerusalem. But more importantly the reference to the "north" gate whereby this Image is located. The north gate and the south gate is whereby acess is gained to this Image the sanctuary. The east gate is shut.

Eze 44:4Then brought he me the way of the north gate before the house: and I looked, and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD: and I fell upon my face.Eze 44:5And the LORD said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the LORD, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary.

In Chapter 10 we see that it is within this sanctuary whereby upon this seat God almighty speaks.


The seat of Satan

Re 2:13I know thy works and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Satan also has his seat wherein he dwells.

2th 2:3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;2th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

He has a "son" in which will set himself in the Temple whereby his father's seat is.

Isa 14:13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:Isa 14:14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Again we see the reference to the the throne and to the direction "north".

Re 13:15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


The Image of the Beast is the sanctuary whereby Satan will dwell and those on the earth will worship from the one speaking from the throne.

================================================== ======


Interestingly enough, which we can address in another thread, a plain sense reading of Revelation 19 and 20 would seem to indicate that the millennium follows the second coming and events of Rev. 19... Even several works by Amils I have been looking at readily admit this. (Anthony Hoekema and William Hendriksen are the specific examples). But we'll save that for another thread :)

Hawk
[/quote]

The 1000 years is a metaphor since there is no measured time outside this realm. God could have used 100 or 10 million but he chose 1000.

Mark

Hawk
May 8th 2008, 09:55 AM
I feel it is someone that gives themselves over to the spirit of this world. The mark is Satan's final of ownership - namely the mark of reprobation. The image could be figurative language for the outward representation of everything that is evil in this world. That is not to say these aren't real evil vices that zap the unsaved, but that the rhetoric of Rev is symbolic of broader wealth of inticments.

Paul

So how can a Christian be sure they have not taken "the mark" or worshipped "the image"? There are so many Christians that give themselves to the spirit of this world all the time... Is there a way to identify someone with this "mark"?

I've just never really pushed the "spiritualness" of this type of interpretation, so your answers have been very helpful for me to grasp it. Thanks so much Paul!

Hawk

David Taylor
May 8th 2008, 01:54 PM
So how can a Christian be sure they have not taken "the mark" or worshipped "the image"? There are so many Christians that give themselves to the spirit of this world all the time... Is there a way to identify someone with this "mark"?


Sure....there is plenty of assurance to the Christian. It's just the basics. Nothing fancy.

I Thessalonians 1:4 "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord"

Hebrews 10:22 "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)"

Romans 8:5 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."

Romans 14:18 "For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. "

2 Corinthians 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

Colossians 2:6 "As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ"

2 Thess 6:10 "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints"

2 Timothy 3:14 "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

I John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

John146
May 8th 2008, 02:10 PM
So how can a Christian be sure they have not taken "the mark" or worshipped "the image"? There are so many Christians that give themselves to the spirit of this world all the time... Is there a way to identify someone with this "mark"?

I've just never really pushed the "spiritualness" of this type of interpretation, so your answers have been very helpful for me to grasp it. Thanks so much Paul!

Hawk

I believe this answers your question:

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. - Matthew 7:13-20

I don't believe there is any new concept introduced in the book of Revelation that isn't covered elsewhere in scripture.

Hawk
May 8th 2008, 02:42 PM
I believe this answers your question:

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. - Matthew 7:13-20

I don't believe there is any new concept introduced in the book of Revelation that isn't covered elsewhere in scripture.

Good passage, thanks Eric!

So is it possible for a believer to have "the mark" at some point in their life and then to repent and not have it at another point in their life? There was definitely a point in my life in the past that I was not producing good fruit. But I have since come back to the Lord and repented, and by His grace I am producing some good fruit now. Did I have "the mark" back then, and did my repentance take it away?

Hawk

The Village Idiot
May 8th 2008, 02:53 PM
Some translate “psuche” as “person,” which includes both body and soul. This is possible where context will allow. As examples:


Ac 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.


Ro 13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.


1Pe 3:20 “…during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.”


This would mean “I saw the persons (souls and bodies) of those who had been beheaded.” But John is describing the first resurrection, which is that of souls only. So context forbids this translation of “psuche.”

The NT often uses “psuche” in the sense of “life.”


Mt 2:20 "Get up, take the Child and His mother, and go into the land of Israel; for those who sought the Child's life are dead."


Lu 12:22 And He said to His disciples, "For this reason I say to you, do not worry about your life, as to what you will eat; nor for your body, as to what you will put on.


Ac 20:10 But Paul went down and fell upon him, and after embracing him, he said, "Do not be troubled, for his life is in him."


In some 35+ cases, “psuche” is adequately translated as “life.” John, the author of the Revelation, uses “psuche almost exclusively in that sense: (Jo 1-:11, 15, 17; 12:25; 13:37, 38; 15:13; 1Jo 3:16; Re 8:9; 12:11).

Rendered this way, Re 20:4 would read,


Re 20:4 And I saw the lives of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God.

On the surface, martyrs may not seem to have reigned in life. But the apostle sees them also as enthroned in life. In their lives on earth, Paul declares that they were more than conquerors.

It seems to me that cases where “psuche” means “disembodied soul” are few. Thayer’s Lexicon gives four examples: Ac 2:27, 31; Re 6:9, and Re 20:4. I don’t see how the Ac texts can refer to the disembodied soul of Christ, for his body was in the tomb. The disembodied soul is never committed to the grave, which seems to be the sense of “hades” in the Ac text. Christ committed His spirit to the Father (Lu 23:46). If his soul in distinction from his body were in the grave, how could he say to the thief: “this day you will be with me in paradise?”

Another consideration: the “souls of the martyrs” (Re 6:9) may not be the souls in the intermediate sate. Souls may intend the OT sense that they are in the blood--the animal souls (ex, Ge 9:5). They are murdered souls; but the blood itself may have just as well have stood. And in the next verse, blood is actually put instead of the souls. “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth” (Re 6:10)? This is comparable to Ge 4:10 where the blood of Abel cries out to God from the ground.

So it isn’t entirely evident that “souls” in Re 20:4 indicates the intermediate state. And if it were the intermediate state, why are only martyrs mentioned when all departed saints are in this intermediate state?

And still another point: Although this is not reflected in all translations, the verbs of Re 20:4--sat, was given, lived, reigned, had worshipped, had received--are all the same tense. And as they are all the same tense, they refer to the same time. The time of not worshipping the beast and not receiving his mark is also the same time as that of sitting on thrones and living and reigning with Christ.

Re 20:4 And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Regardless of martyrdom and suffering, the saints victorious reign on the earth such that Paul can say that they are more than conquerors.

John146
May 8th 2008, 03:10 PM
Good passage, thanks Eric!

So is it possible for a believer to have "the mark" at some point in their life and then to repent and not have it at another point in their life? There was definitely a point in my life in the past that I was not producing good fruit. But I have since come back to the Lord and repented, and by His grace I am producing some good fruit now. Did I have "the mark" back then, and did my repentance take it away?

Hawk

Goodness gracious, you sure are challenging us with a lot of good questions. :D

Well, I'm not certain if the mark is a mark of reprobation or just something that marks someone as an unbeliever but is something that can later be removed when someone returns to the Lord or puts their faith in Christ. I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of God giving people over to their sin, making them reprobate, right? We can see examples of that in Romans 1:18-32 and 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12. Hebrews 6:4-6 speaks of people falling away and not being able to be led back to repentance again. I'm not going to pretend that I have a full grasp on who fits into that category because I'm not sure. Seems like only God can know something like that for certain because He's the one who knows our hearts.

I'm not sure if I answered your question in a satisfactory manner or not. If not, let me know and I'll try to be more specific. Can you tell me what difference it would make whether the mark of the beast is a mark of reprobation or not? Specifically, what difference it makes as it relates to the topic of this thread.

Eric

The Village Idiot
May 8th 2008, 03:14 PM
John uses the "mark" in theological counterpoint to the "seal" of God (i.e., baptism)?

John146
May 8th 2008, 03:16 PM
John uses the "mark" in theological counterpoint to the "seal" of God (i.e., baptism)?

I believe so....

Hawk
May 8th 2008, 03:41 PM
Goodness gracious, you sure are challenging us with a lot of good questions. :D

Well, I'm not certain if the mark is a mark of reprobation or just something that marks someone as an unbeliever but is something that can later be removed when someone returns to the Lord or puts their faith in Christ. I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of God giving people over to their sin, making them reprobate, right? We can see examples of that in Romans 1:18-32 and 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12. Hebrews 6:4-6 speaks of people falling away and not being able to be led back to repentance again. I'm not going to pretend that I have a full grasp on who fits into that category because I'm not sure. Seems like only God can know something like that for certain because He's the one who knows our hearts.

I'm not sure if I answered your question in a satisfactory manner or not. If not, let me know and I'll try to be more specific. Can you tell me what difference it would make whether the mark of the beast is a mark of reprobation or not? Specifically, what difference it makes as it relates to the topic of this thread.

Eric

Good call Eric, those passages are precisely the ones I was thinking of.

I'm just thinking of how I would preach such a thing to folks. There's so much uncertainty about the mark, what it is, what unbelievers think it is, etc. that I think both believers and unbelievers will want to be sure they have not taken it since, in the amil perspective, it's a spiritual mark. I'm concerned about the lack of clarity in the body of Christ at large about what it is, if it is indeed spiritual, simply because of the distinction John makes about their condition of reigning with Christ only if they had not taken the mark.

Paul, feel free to chime in if you've got some good insight. I'm still a bit confused.

Hawk

John146
May 8th 2008, 03:57 PM
Good call Eric, those passages are precisely the ones I was thinking of.

I'm just thinking of how I would preach such a thing to folks. There's so much uncertainty about the mark, what it is, what unbelievers think it is, etc. that I think both believers and unbelievers will want to be sure they have not taken it since, in the amil perspective, it's a spiritual mark. I'm concerned about the lack of clarity in the body of Christ at large about what it is, if it is indeed spiritual, simply because of the distinction John makes about their condition of reigning with Christ only if they had not taken the mark.

Paul, feel free to chime in if you've got some good insight. I'm still a bit confused.

Hawk

All I can say is "ye shall know them by their fruits". It's usually not too difficult to see where one's allegiances lie. I see the mark as being the spiritual counterpart to the seal of God. So, from my perspective, to make sure one hasn't taken it is to make sure that one has repented and put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. I don't see how a physical mark could determine the spiritual reality of whether one's name was in the book of life or not.

Hawk
May 8th 2008, 04:04 PM
All I can say is "ye shall know them by their fruits". It's usually not too difficult to see where one's allegiances lie. I see the mark as being the spiritual counterpart to the seal of God. So, from my perspective, to make sure one hasn't taken it is to make sure that one has repented and put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Cool...

So it's not possible for a believer to "take the mark"? Or can a believer take the mark at some point in the future, and then get rid of it somehow by repentance?

Does that mean, even though I accepted Jesus at a young age and I rebelled in my teens (I did not produce good fruit), that I "took the mark"? Because if I took the mark, then I surely would not take part in the first resurrection according to the passage we're examining.

Just trying to clarify... Thanks for bearing with me :)

Hawk

John146
May 8th 2008, 04:20 PM
Cool...

So it's not possible for a believer to "take the mark"? Or can a believer take the mark at some point in the future, and then get rid of it somehow by repentance?

We could discuss this if you really want to, but it might go on for 2,000+ pages (see the OSAS vs. NOSAS debate in Bible Chat forum). I'm not sure if I'm up to that. :D I'll just say this. Revelation itself doesn't speak of any believers taking the mark.



Does that mean, even though I accepted Jesus at a young age and I rebelled in my teens (I did not produce good fruit), that I "took the mark"? Because if I took the mark, then I surely would not take part in the first resurrection according to the passage we're examining.

Just trying to clarify... Thanks for bearing with me :)

HawkAs Christians, we are not perfect. We still sin. But our sins don't cause us to lose our salvation. Did you ever renounce your faith in Christ? Taking the mark does seem to be an act of one giving their full allegiance to Satan and the beast. Now, how many people willingly and knowingly worship Satan? Not too many. Yet, it says that those who worship the beast also worship Satan (Rev 13:4). So, it seems to me that worshiping the beast and worshiping Satan and taking the mark of the beast is not something that people are necessarily fully conscious of doing but is the result of being deceived into following after the ways of Satan and the world and the spirit of the world/antichrist.

ForChrist
May 8th 2008, 04:33 PM
I just wanted to say that you all have offered superb incite into Scripture and I've learned so much so far and am continuing to. Let's not rule out the possibility that the mark of the beast is physical, though. That's not saying that it isn't a spiritual mark. After all, we know that satan is referred to as the god of this world.

2 Corinthians 4:4



4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.

wpm
May 8th 2008, 04:51 PM
Good passage, thanks Eric!

So is it possible for a believer to have "the mark" at some point in their life and then to repent and not have it at another point in their life? There was definitely a point in my life in the past that I was not producing good fruit. But I have since come back to the Lord and repented, and by His grace I am producing some good fruit now. Did I have "the mark" back then, and did my repentance take it away?

Hawk

No, a reprobate is one that has went over a line of no return. Not everyone that currently abides in the world today has yet taken the mark of final and eternal irreversible reprobation. Notwithstanding, those who eventually receive this irrevocable mark are eternally damned, and are therefore absent from the book of life written before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8, 17:8).

Men harden their heart to such a degree that God hardens theirs. See Rom 1. We see God giving men up (or over) to their own lusts. Once a man goes over that line there is no return. The mark of the beast is the mark of reprobation that ensures a man will never see heaven. Men today are either saved or unsaved – but not all unsaved men have yet taken this mark of reprobation (mark of the beast). Many will eventually be saved at some future juncture. The message for them is to repent lest they receive this spiritual mark and spend eternity under the wrath of God as a consequence. The Lord is still evidently in the saving business; therefore this message is still apt.

Genesis 6:3 records: "And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man."

Paul

wpm
May 8th 2008, 04:57 PM
John uses the "mark" in theological counterpoint to the "seal" of God (i.e., baptism)?

I would agree partially. I feel it is the anthisis of the seal of the Holy Spirit - a spiritual mark of our eternal ownership.

Ephesians 1:11-14 declares, “In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest (or our pledge in advance) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 4:30 says, “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

Paul

wpm
May 8th 2008, 05:00 PM
Good call Eric, those passages are precisely the ones I was thinking of.

I'm just thinking of how I would preach such a thing to folks. There's so much uncertainty about the mark, what it is, what unbelievers think it is, etc. that I think both believers and unbelievers will want to be sure they have not taken it since, in the amil perspective, it's a spiritual mark. I'm concerned about the lack of clarity in the body of Christ at large about what it is, if it is indeed spiritual, simply because of the distinction John makes about their condition of reigning with Christ only if they had not taken the mark.

Paul, feel free to chime in if you've got some good insight. I'm still a bit confused.

Hawk

If God stops speaking and convicting then you have went too far. Until then the Gospel door is wide open.

Paul

John146
May 8th 2008, 05:01 PM
I would agree partially. I feel it is the anthisis of the seal of the Holy Spirit - a spiritual mark of our eternal ownership.

Ephesians 1:11-14 declares, “In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest (or our pledge in advance) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 4:30 says, “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

Paul

I agree. I agreed with him with the understanding that he was speaking of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which I see as occurring simultaneously with the sealing of the Spirit.

wpm
May 8th 2008, 05:09 PM
I agree. I agreed with him with the understanding that he was speaking of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which I see as occurring simultaneously with the sealing of the Spirit.

Wow! We have a disagreement. :cry:

On salvation I believe we are baptised into Christ. For empowerment we need to be baptised in the Spirit. The Lord said shortly before His ascension, in Luke 24:49-50, “And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”

Remember the disciples were already born again!

They were again promised in Acts 1:5: “For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”

Acts 1:8: “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

Paul

John146
May 8th 2008, 06:58 PM
Wow! We have a disagreement. :cry:

On salvation I believe we are baptised into Christ. For empowerment we need to be baptised in the Spirit. The Lord said shortly before His ascension, in Luke 24:49-50, “And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”

Remember the disciples were already born again!

They were again promised in Acts 1:5: “For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”

Acts 1:8: “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

Paul


I understand what you're saying and I actually agree with it, but what about this verse:

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. - 1 Cor 12:13

Is that not also the baptism of the Spirit? Does the baptism described there not occur upon salvation? Seems to me there is a baptism of the Spirit that occurs when one is initially saved or born again and then subsequent baptisms of the Spirit that have to do with God giving a person special power through the Holy Spirit in which to boldly proclaim the gospel.

The Village Idiot
May 8th 2008, 07:51 PM
Methinks a few more words would be in order. Regarding the words:


"...he was speaking of the baptism of the Holy Spirit."

I concur entirely. In addition to the two Ep texts cited already, I would add:


"Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge" (2Co 1:21-22).

In my faith tradition, baptismal waters are the sign which points to the baptism of the Spirit--which is the reality to which the sacrament witnesses.

Placing the "mark" and the "seal" sed in parody, John demonstrates that both God and the devil make exclusive claim to our allegiance. Either we will love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength, or we will bear in our minds the impression of and by the strength of our hands serve--that system of ideology/authority/power/idolatry/oppression/injustice/extortion/corruption/propaganda which we call "the world."

This reading of John would, I suspect, seriously endanger theological laxity and prophetic indifference in our churches. Of course, it would also put us in a rather adversarial relationship with the powers of this world, including our own governments. Could it be that for this reason, we would prefer NOT to have this understanding of John?

By the same token, I would offer that yes, one can exchange the "mark" for the "seal." How? You turn to Christ.

wpm
May 8th 2008, 08:19 PM
I understand what you're saying and I actually agree with it, but what about this verse:

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. - 1 Cor 12:13

Is that not also the baptism of the Spirit? Does the baptism described there not occur upon salvation? Seems to me there is a baptism of the Spirit that occurs when one is initially saved or born again and then subsequent baptisms of the Spirit that have to do with God giving a person special power through the Holy Spirit in which to boldly proclaim the gospel.

I suppose the Holy Spirit is the agency that exposes our sin, reveals Christ, regenerates and empowers. The Holy Spirit is the person who introduces to Christ thus enabling us become one with Him. When we are saved the Holy Spirit wells up within us (Rom. 10:9) and gives us eternal life (John 4:14) and we receive the seal of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13). The Holy Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13).

I feel that in no way negates the empowerment “with the Holy Ghost and with fire” (Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, Acts 1:5).


Paul

John146
May 8th 2008, 08:25 PM
I suppose the Holy Spirit is the agency that exposes our sin, reveals Christ, regenerates and empowers. The Holy Spirit is the person who introduces to Christ thus enabling us become one with Him. When we are saved the Holy Spirit wells up within us (Rom. 10:9) and gives us eternal life (John 4:14) and we receive the seal of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13). The Holy Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13). I believe those things happen simultaneously or at least one right after the other. Do you agree?



I feel that in no way negates the empowerment “with the Holy Ghost and with fire” (Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, Acts 1:5).Me neither. I agree with you that even before Pentecost, the disciples were already born again and baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ.

wpm
May 8th 2008, 08:27 PM
I believe those things happen simultaneously or at least one right after the other. Do you agree?

Me neither. I agree with you that even before Pentecost, the disciples were already born again and baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ.

Yep, don't think we are too far away. :pp

Paul

Hawk
May 10th 2008, 03:59 AM
We could discuss this if you really want to, but it might go on for 2,000+ pages (see the OSAS vs. NOSAS debate in Bible Chat forum). I'm not sure if I'm up to that. :D I'll just say this. Revelation itself doesn't speak of any believers taking the mark.


I'm not up to that either, heh... Just wanted to push the boundaries of this discussion from mere spiritual concepts to more of a practical, "flesh it out" kind of thing.

Revelation doesn't necessarily say that believers do not or will not take the mark... But it does emphasize that those who do not take the mark have been written in the Lamb's book of life. I suppose this vein could move us towards a OSAS discussion, but as I said, I don't want to go there :)


As Christians, we are not perfect. We still sin. But our sins don't cause us to lose our salvation. Did you ever renounce your faith in Christ? Taking the mark does seem to be an act of one giving their full allegiance to Satan and the beast. Now, how many people willingly and knowingly worship Satan? Not too many. Yet, it says that those who worship the beast also worship Satan (Rev 13:4). So, it seems to me that worshiping the beast and worshiping Satan and taking the mark of the beast is not something that people are necessarily fully conscious of doing but is the result of being deceived into following after the ways of Satan and the world and the spirit of the world/antichrist.

So I think I'm gathering that you (and I think Paul's) perspective on the beast, the false prophet, and the mark is that it is something that only the truly reprobate worship and buy into - the folks that have hardened their heart Romans 1 style and are fully given over in their sin. It's not just "enjoying" or "participating in" (worshipping) the systems of the world and "bearing bad fruit" as a result but it is much more than that - things like open demon worship or blasphemy of God?

Or is that just a description of those who have taken "the mark"?

If so, that brings me back to an earlier question - what defines worshipping the beast or his image?

Your view is definitely clear to me in that those who take "the mark" (being a mark of reprobation) will not participate in the resurrection of Rev. 20:4, but I'm still unclear on who and for what reason someone won't participate in it because they "worshiped the beast" or "his image".

Thanks for your patience with me... You guys have been so helpful thus far.

Hawk

wpm
May 10th 2008, 05:12 PM
Your view is definitely clear to me in that those who take "the mark" (being a mark of reprobation) will not participate in the resurrection of Rev. 20:4, but I'm still unclear on who and for what reason someone won't participate in it because they "worshiped the beast" or "his image".

Thanks for your patience with me... You guys have been so helpful thus far.

Hawk

I believe this is a heavenly scene in the here-and-now. This is a picture of the disembodied elect intra-Advent. They have been caught up to God upon death. Whilst this is describing the dead in Christ that have experienced the first resurrection (salvation), it is not describing the first resurrection per se.

Paul

John146
May 12th 2008, 04:10 PM
I'm not up to that either, heh... Just wanted to push the boundaries of this discussion from mere spiritual concepts to more of a practical, "flesh it out" kind of thing.

Revelation doesn't necessarily say that believers do not or will not take the mark... But it does emphasize that those who do not take the mark have been written in the Lamb's book of life. I suppose this vein could move us towards a OSAS discussion, but as I said, I don't want to go there :)



So I think I'm gathering that you (and I think Paul's) perspective on the beast, the false prophet, and the mark is that it is something that only the truly reprobate worship and buy into - the folks that have hardened their heart Romans 1 style and are fully given over in their sin. It's not just "enjoying" or "participating in" (worshipping) the systems of the world and "bearing bad fruit" as a result but it is much more than that - things like open demon worship or blasphemy of God?

Or is that just a description of those who have taken "the mark"?

If so, that brings me back to an earlier question - what defines worshipping the beast or his image?

Your view is definitely clear to me in that those who take "the mark" (being a mark of reprobation) will not participate in the resurrection of Rev. 20:4, but I'm still unclear on who and for what reason someone won't participate in it because they "worshiped the beast" or "his image".

Thanks for your patience with me... You guys have been so helpful thus far.

Hawk

I believe those who take the mark are "of the world". Whereas believers are not "of the world" and are "of God" instead. I believe scripture repeatedly differentiates between believers and unbelievers in different ways. Revelation is no different. Saved and lost. Wheat and tares. Sheep and goats. Righteous and wicked. And so on. In this case, I believe Revelation depicts all believers as having the seal of God whereas all unbelievers have the mark of the beast. So, we could liken the worshiping of the beast to the worshiping and serving of the creature more than the Creator (Rom 1:25).

Hawk
May 12th 2008, 06:09 PM
I believe those who take the mark are "of the world". Whereas believers are not "of the world" and are "of God" instead. I believe scripture repeatedly differentiates between believers and unbelievers in different ways. Revelation is no different. Saved and lost. Wheat and tares. Sheep and goats. Righteous and wicked. And so on. In this case, I believe Revelation depicts all believers as having the seal of God whereas all unbelievers have the mark of the beast. So, we could liken the worshiping of the beast to the worshiping and serving of the creature more than the Creator (Rom 1:25).

Gotcha. In Romans 1, Paul seems to go a bit "deeper" into the progression of the hardening of one's heart and searing of one's conscience (thus leading to openly pledging one's allegiance to Satan) though, so I think I'd personally have a hard time using that as a final scriptural definition of "worshipping the beast", since at one time or another we all (even as believers) have served the creature rather than the Creator.

What specifically is the "image" of "an antichrist/worldly system"? What does it look like to worship the "image of the beast"?

Also, earlier you said:


So, it seems to me that worshiping the beast and worshiping Satan and taking the mark of the beast is not something that people are necessarily fully conscious of doing but is the result of being deceived into following after the ways of Satan and the world and the spirit of the world/antichrist.

Romans 1 seems to indicate that men are fully aware of what they are doing in allowing their hearts to become hardened towards God. Even though they are utterly deceived, the witness about God's heart, nature, and character goes forth (Psalm 8, Psalm 19, Romans 1:20) so that they are without excuse and without accusation against God in not allowing them to choose. If men have progressed to such a hardened state and are completely and wholly unaware of the fact that they have "bad fruit", are "reprobate", and are worshipping Satan, that would seem to contradict the character of God... I'd love for you to "flesh out" what you meant a bit more because I think I might be misunderstanding you.

Hawk

John146
May 12th 2008, 06:55 PM
Gotcha. In Romans 1, Paul seems to go a bit "deeper" into the progression of the hardening of one's heart and searing of one's conscience (thus leading to openly pledging one's allegiance to Satan) though, so I think I'd personally have a hard time using that as a final scriptural definition of "worshipping the beast", since at one time or another we all (even as believers) have served the creature rather than the Creator.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to get at here. Can you elaborate? All I can say is that while we're all sinners and all lost at one point in our lives, it does seem to only be speaking of those whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world (Rev 17:8). One's name is either written in the book of life or it isn't. Those whose names are not written there worship the beast, without exception, according to Rev 13:8.



What specifically is the "image" of "an antichrist/worldly system"? What does it look like to worship the "image of the beast"?

The opposite of the image of Christ, which is godliness and righteousness. So, the image of the beast is worldliness and wickedness. What it looks like to worship the image of the beast is to practice wordliness and wickedness and to have an unrepentant heart. The image speaks through the people who practice it.



Romans 1 seems to indicate that men are fully aware of what they are doing in allowing their hearts to become hardened towards God. Even though they are utterly deceived, the witness about God's heart, nature, and character goes forth (Psalm 8, Psalm 19, Romans 1:20) so that they are without excuse and without accusation against God in not allowing them to choose. If men have progressed to such a hardened state and are completely and wholly unaware of the fact that they have "bad fruit", are "reprobate", and are worshipping Satan, that would seem to contradict the character of God... I'd love for you to "flesh out" what you meant a bit more because I think I might be misunderstanding you.

HawkIt's as simple as this. If unbelievers somehow had it proven to them beyond the shadow of a doubt that what the Bible teaches is all true, how many of them would remain unbelievers (knowing that they would end up in the lake of fire for doing so)? Not many, if any, I would guess. They have been deceived into thinking that this life is all there is or that they can be reincarnated or whatever the case might be. So, while deep down the knowledge of God is there, they are blinded to that fact by other things. If I'm not answering your question or clarifying things, just let me know and I'll try again.

Hawk
May 12th 2008, 07:25 PM
I'm not sure what point you are trying to get at here. Can you elaborate? All I can say is that while we're all sinners and all lost at one point in our lives, it does seem to only be speaking of those whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world (Rev 17:8). One's name is either written in the book of life or it isn't. Those whose names are not written there worship the beast, without exception, according to Rev 13:8.


I agree. I'll elaborate a bit on my point about Romans 1 for you though. I think Paul is offering a progression by which men's hearts become hardened, first beginning with doing things like being unthankful and professing their own wisdom (1:21-22), giving in to idol worship by which God gives them over to uncleanness (1:23-24), such that they give their loyalty to men rather than God (1:25). As a result of that, God gives them over even further to the lusts of the flesh. (1:26). Yet there is still another "level" of hardening towards God in which men are given over to a "debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting" (1:28) who are unrepentant and knowingly are not "retaining God in their knowledge".

While "serving the creature rather than the Creator" is not a good thing, it's merely a step on the path to a fully hardened heart. I would say it's one expression of a giving of oneself to worshipping Satan (and for the sake of this discussion, what you see as "worshipping the beast"), it's not the fullness of it.

Hopefully that helps clarify what I was thinking...




The opposite of the image of Christ, which is godliness and righteousness. So, the image of the beast is worldliness and wickedness. What it looks like to worship the image of the beast is to practice wordliness and wickedness and to have an unrepentant heart. The image speaks through the people who practice it.


I guess I'm still having a hard time distinguishing then between your idea of worshipping the beast and worshipping the image of the beast... What's the distinction?



It's as simple as this. If unbelievers somehow had it proven to them beyond the shadow of a doubt that what the Bible teaches is all true, how many of them would remain unbelievers (knowing that they would end up in the lake of fire for doing so)? Not many, if any, I would guess. They have been deceived into thinking that this life is all there is or that they can be reincarnated or whatever the case might be. So, while deep down the knowledge of God is there, they are blinded to that fact by other things. If I'm not answering your question or clarifying things, just let me know and I'll try again.

Isn't that the story of the ages? God is going to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that everything He says is true (isn't that the point of a "witness" in all the nations - Matt. 24:14 - and the Great Commission, as well as the declaration made at the 7th trumpet, that the "mystery of God would be finished" - in other words, who God is, what He is like, and what His intentions are) yet men are still unrepentant. Isn't this what Paul describes as the "mystery" of lawlessness, that men, even with an undeniable and clear demonstration of who He is, remain defiant and turn in hatred towards Him? Let me know if I'm misunderstanding you...

I'll get on the same page with you eventually :)

Hawk

John146
May 12th 2008, 08:03 PM
Hawk,

What is the real point you are trying to make here? There must be something you're trying to get at, but I'm not seeing it.

Eric

Hawk
May 12th 2008, 08:09 PM
Hawk,

What is the real point you are trying to make here? There must be something you're trying to get at, but I'm not seeing it.

Eric

No hidden agenda - I'm just trying to figure out who the "souls" of Rev. 20:4 are, and the conditions by which they participate or are involved with the "first resurrection", according to the amil view. I'm just trying to have a sufficient explanation for each phrase in verse 4. I think I have what I'm looking for, minus the difference between worshipping the beast and worshipping the image of the beast. I'm being particular because the passage itself makes a clear distinction. And because it's distinguished, the Lord has something important in there for us to know, and I don't want to be content with just broadstrokes and concepts. The details are in there to help us love Jesus more, as the book of Revelation is indeed the revelation of a Man (Rev. 1:1)! :spin:

Hawk

wpm
May 12th 2008, 08:28 PM
No hidden agenda - I'm just trying to figure out who the "souls" of Rev. 20:4 are, and the conditions by which they participate or are involved with the "first resurrection", according to the amil view. I'm just trying to have a sufficient explanation for each phrase in verse 4. I think I have what I'm looking for, minus the difference between worshipping the beast and worshipping the image of the beast. I'm being particular because the passage itself makes a clear distinction. And because it's distinguished, the Lord has something important in there for us to know, and I don't want to be content with just broadstrokes and concepts. The details are in there to help us love Jesus more, as the book of Revelation is indeed the revelation of a Man (Rev. 1:1)! :spin:

Hawk

You must of missed my post above. I believe this is a heavenly scene in the here-and-now. This is a picture of the disembodied elect intra-Advent. They have been caught up to God upon death. Whilst this is describing the dead in Christ that have experienced the first resurrection (salvation), it is not describing the first resurrection per se.

Paul

Hawk
May 13th 2008, 01:00 PM
You must of missed my post above. I believe this is a heavenly scene in the here-and-now. This is a picture of the disembodied elect intra-Advent. They have been caught up to God upon death. Whilst this is describing the dead in Christ that have experienced the first resurrection (salvation), it is not describing the first resurrection per se.

Paul

Thanks Paul.

So what do you believe the passage is speaking of when it is distinguishing between those who did not worship the beast and those who did not worship the image of the beast? What does it look like to worship "the beast" versus worshipping the "image of the beast"?

Hawk

TexasBeliever
May 13th 2008, 01:14 PM
[quote=Hawk;1630386]Again, the subject line says it all...

“And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”
(Rev 20:4 NKJV)

Just wondering who you think these "souls" are. I have a few questions left in trying to understand the amil viewpoint and this is one of them...

Thanks so much!

Hawk[/quote

These souls are a group of people alive at the time of the antichrist, aka the beast. Anyone who is described as a "witness to Jesus" is a part of the body of Christ, also known as the church.

Firstfruits
May 13th 2008, 02:44 PM
Thanks Paul.

So what do you believe the passage is speaking of when it is distinguishing between those who did not worship the beast and those who did not worship the image of the beast? What does it look like to worship "the beast" versus worshipping the "image of the beast"?

Hawk

For your information the whole earth shall worship the beast if their names are not in the book of life, and this is before the second beast comes with the mark.

First beast
Rev 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Second beast
Rev 13:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

wpm
May 13th 2008, 03:33 PM
Thanks Paul.

So what do you believe the passage is speaking of when it is distinguishing between those who did not worship the beast and those who did not worship the image of the beast? What does it look like to worship "the beast" versus worshipping the "image of the beast"?

Hawk

To worship the beast is to give one's allegiance to the spirit of this world in life, which ultimately leads to reprobation (or taking the worlds final mark of ownership). The believer has another mark which is effectual until the day of redemption. He does not submit to this wicked system. In life He gives His all to Jesus. It is referring simply to all the non-elect - those not in God's book from the foundation of the world.

Paul

Hawk
May 13th 2008, 05:50 PM
To worship the beast is to give one's allegiance to the spirit of this world in life, which ultimately leads to reprobation (or taking the worlds final mark of ownership). The believer has another mark which is effectual until the day of redemption. He does not submit to this wicked system. In life He gives His all to Jesus. It is referring simply to all the non-elect - those not in God's book from the foundation of the world.

Paul

Thanks Paul.

Eric and I went back and forth on that point enough so I'm confident in that view of it. But my question still remains - what does it mean to worship the image of the beast, if worshipping the beast is taking "allegiance to the spirit of the world"?

If the beast is "the spirit of this world", what then is the image of the beast? Help me out with your interpretation of Rev. 13, because that's where I'm lacking clarity in how it applies to Rev. 20...

Hawk

wpm
May 13th 2008, 06:21 PM
Thanks Paul.

Eric and I went back and forth on that point enough so I'm confident in that view of it. But my question still remains - what does it mean to worship the image of the beast, if worshipping the beast is taking "allegiance to the spirit of the world"?

If the beast is "the spirit of this world", what then is the image of the beast? Help me out with your interpretation of Rev. 13, because that's where I'm lacking clarity in how it applies to Rev. 20...

Hawk

Scripture does not clarify, so we can only speculate.

Revelation 13:11-16 declares:“And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads.”

It could be something the religious spirit (the false prophet) creates religiously that is in reality just another representation of the spirit of this world. Remember, dead religion is just another facet of the spirit of this world. It is built upon the innovation of man - it is the flesh (exactly everything that the beast represents).

The image could be figurative language for the outward representation of everything that is evil in this world. That is not to say these aren't real evil vices that zap the unsaved, but that the rhetoric of Rev is symbolic of broader wealth of enticements.

Paul

Hawk
May 13th 2008, 07:08 PM
Scripture does not clarify, so we can only speculate.

Revelation 13:11-16 declares:“And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads.”

It could be something the religious spirit (the false prophet) creates religiously that is in reality just another representation of the spirit of this world. Remember, dead religion is just another facet of the spirit of this world. It is built upon the innovation of man - it is the flesh (exactly everything that the beast represents).

The image could be figurative language for the outward representation of everything that is evil in this world. That is not to say these aren't real evil vices that zap the unsaved, but that the rhetoric of Rev is symbolic of broader wealth of enticements.

Paul

Interesting...

If what John highlighted as characteristics of those in Rev. 20:4 is even remotely important (which I believe it is, because John did indeed make it a point to write it), don't you think we should have a bit more clarity on what worshipping the beast and the image of the beast is? At least so that we are assured they aren't actually doing it, if it's indeed what you're professing it to be... The detail is in there for a reason, and I simply can't throw it away with mere speculation.

I by no means have all of the answers to everything in Revelation, but your response does come as a bit of a surprise since you have scripturally supported many of your other points elsewhere.

Anyways, thanks so much for your time Paul, Eric, and the others that have contributed to this thread. It's been very helpful for me to understand your perspective on Rev. 20:4.

Hawk

wpm
May 13th 2008, 07:47 PM
Interesting...

If what John highlighted as characteristics of those in Rev. 20:4 is even remotely important (which I believe it is, because John did indeed make it a point to write it), don't you think we should have a bit more clarity on what worshipping the beast and the image of the beast is? At least so that we are assured they aren't actually doing it, if it's indeed what you're professing it to be... The detail is in there for a reason, and I simply can't throw it away with mere speculation.

I by no means have all of the answers to everything in Revelation, but your response does come as a bit of a surprise since you have scripturally supported many of your other points elsewhere.

Anyways, thanks so much for your time Paul, Eric, and the others that have contributed to this thread. It's been very helpful for me to understand your perspective on Rev. 20:4.

Hawk

Hawk,

There are some things that I am convinced of, others I am partially convinced of, other again that I am at a loss to be dogmatic. I have heard many views on this, some are ok, most are speculation. I am still not totally sure. I haven't done big research on that, so it is ok to say I'm not totally sure - especially when we don't get much info on it. Maybe that is why I furnished you with no supporting Scripture.

I am sure there are things you are unsure about as well. That is not a weakness, it is a reality with being a finite creature.

What do you think it is?

Paul

Hawk
May 13th 2008, 09:08 PM
Hawk,

There are some things that I am convinced of, others I am partially convinced of, other again that I am at a loss to be dogmatic. I have heard many views on this, some are ok, most are speculation. I am still not totally sure. I haven't done big research on that, so it is ok to say I'm not totally sure - especially when we don't get much info on it. Maybe that is why I furnished you with no supporting Scripture.

I am sure there are things you are unsure about as well. That is not a weakness, it is a reality with being a finite creature.

What do you think it is?

Paul

Indeed... We are still earthen vessels, even though we have treasure in them :)

Being a non-dispensational premillennialist, I would tend to see the beast and the image of the beast from the "normal" futurist perspective (the beast is a man called the antichrist and the image of the beast is an idol of that man that seemingly has a supernatural ability to speak). But this thread has helped me tremendously with understanding the spiritual view.

Thanks again!

Hawk

John146
May 14th 2008, 02:33 PM
Indeed... We are still earthen vessels, even though we have treasure in them :)

Being a non-dispensational premillennialist, I would tend to see the beast and the image of the beast from the "normal" futurist perspective (the beast is a man called the antichrist and the image of the beast is an idol of that man that seemingly has a supernatural ability to speak). But this thread has helped me tremendously with understanding the spiritual view.

Thanks again!

Hawk

This is what you said in another thread regarding the bottomless pit:



Thanks Eric...

One thing I've looked at a little bit that may be worth noting for the discussion. The bottomless pit throughout the NT and in Revelation seems to be the abode of the demonic, and often times it has a key.


Hey Shirley! Thanks for jumping in!

Thanks for the references. Those were exactly the ones I was thinking of. This "bottomless pit" is a very real place where demons are. I'm glad we're in agreement!

So since we've established that this bottomless pit is a very real place in the spirit (as heaven is), and there are apparently some sort of spiritual "chains" that bind these demons, what do you think about the phrases John uses in Rev. 20:3, specifically "shut him up", and "set a seal on him"? That sounds pretty intense!

Hawk

If the beast is a man, how can that be in light of the fact that it says the beast shall come up out of the bottomless pit (Rev 11:7, Rev 17:8)? I thought you said the bottomless pit is a place where demons dwell? I guess you actually believe it's a place where evil men dwell, too?

Also, how do you think the entire unbelieving world would worship a talking idol? Don't you think that's a little silly? Remember, scripture indicates that all whose names are not written in the book of life will worship the beast and the image of the beast. I can see maybe some people worshiping such a thing, but everyone? I can't see that at all.

Hawk
May 14th 2008, 06:47 PM
This is what you said in another thread regarding the bottomless pit:



If the beast is a man, how can that be in light of the fact that it says the beast shall come up out of the bottomless pit (Rev 11:7, Rev 17:8)? I thought you said the bottomless pit is a place where demons dwell? I guess you actually believe it's a place where evil men dwell, too?

Also, how do you think the entire unbelieving world would worship a talking idol? Don't you think that's a little silly? Remember, scripture indicates that all whose names are not written in the book of life will worship the beast and the image of the beast. I can see maybe some people worshiping such a thing, but everyone? I can't see that at all.

My theory is that the antichrist is fully man and fully demon, as a counterfeit to Jesus. Satan can comfortably give him "his power, his throne, and great authority" because the antichrist has pledged his loyalty to him and is fully "demon incarnate".

Hawk

wpm
May 14th 2008, 07:43 PM
My theory is that the antichrist is fully man and fully demon, as a counterfeit to Jesus. Satan can comfortably give him "his power, his throne, and great authority" because the antichrist has pledged his loyalty to him and is fully "demon incarnate".

Hawk

I don't think he can be a man, unless he has b een living for thousands of yrs. I think the beast can be identified with (what the rest of Scripture describes as) the "mystery of iniquity" and "that spirit of antichrist." I believe these are all synonymous. It is interesting that they are all described as being alive and kicking in Bible times. This would challenge the popular modern-day belief of the beast being an end-time person.

Revelation 17:8 states, “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

Revelation 17:9-13 further enlarges,“The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

Paul explains in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 of his day,“For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

1 John 4:3-6 sheds more light on this matter, saying,“And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; andeven now already is it in the world.”

Paul

Hawk
May 14th 2008, 08:20 PM
I don't think he can be a man, unless he has b een living for thousands of yrs. I think the beast can be identified with (what the rest of Scripture describes as) the "mystery of iniquity" and "that spirit of antichrist." I believe these are all synonymous. It is interesting that they are all described as being alive and kicking in Bible times. This would challenge the popular modern-day belief of the beast being an end-time person.

Revelation 17:8 states, “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

Revelation 17:9-13 further enlarges,“The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

Paul explains in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 of his day,“For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

1 John 4:3-6 sheds more light on this matter, saying,“And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; andeven now already is it in the world.”

Paul

While I am in complete agreement that the spirit of antichrist has been alive and kicking for centuries, I can't just spiritualize away passages where Paul explicitly identifies someone coming called the "man of sin". If the "falling away" from the faith described by Paul in 2 Thess. 2:3 is an event that will really come to pass in our time and space, I can't just spiritualize the rest of the passage because it does not make any exegetical sense to do so. I also can't see how a spirit of lawlessness can stand up in the temple of God declaring himself to be God. Besides, Paul goes on to describe the "mystery of lawlessness" being "already at work" several verses later (2:7), distinguishing it from the "man of sin" to be revealed (gr: apokalupto) before the day of Christ (implying he is not already at work).

I think you would agree that it is being eisegetical to assume that the "man of sin" is the same entity as the "mystery of lawlessness".

Hawk

John146
May 15th 2008, 03:20 PM
My theory is that the antichrist is fully man and fully demon, as a counterfeit to Jesus. Satan can comfortably give him "his power, his throne, and great authority" because the antichrist has pledged his loyalty to him and is fully "demon incarnate".

Hawk

Then that man demon has been around a long time (Rev 17:8). What is his name? Where is the scripture that would support this idea of a demon incarnate?

Firstfruits
May 15th 2008, 03:30 PM
Then that man demon has been around a long time (Rev 17:8). What is his name? Where is the scripture that would support this idea of a demon incarnate?

Hi Eric,

Just to add, he will also have to be alive when Jesus returns, not saying he is not a man,but I would say according to what is written that he has not yet been revealed.

Am I on the right track with what you are trying to say?

John146
May 15th 2008, 03:33 PM
While I am in complete agreement that the spirit of antichrist has been alive and kicking for centuries, I can't just spiritualize away passages where Paul explicitly identifies someone coming called the "man of sin".

I do believe that the word man there is literal, but not referring to an individual man. On the surface, that may seem confusing. But look at this passage:

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. - 2 Timothy 3:16-17

Is this passage referring to an individual man of God or the people of God in general? Obviously, it's referring to the people of God in general. Other examples like this are Isaiah 3:2, which refers to "the man of war" as men of war in general and Micah 6:9 which refers to "the man of wisdom" as men or people of wisdom in general.

In the same way, I believe 2 Thess 2 is referring to the people of sin in general. But in particular those who deceive others. So, I believe it refers to the same false teachers, false prophets and false Christs that are called "antichrist" elsewhere. Scripture says that the antichrist is anyone who denies Christ came in the flesh (2 John 1:7) or denies that He is the Christ (1 John 2:22).

John146
May 15th 2008, 03:38 PM
Hi Eric,

Just to add, he will also have to be alive when Jesus returns, not saying he is not a man,but I would say according to what is written that he has not yet been revealed.

Am I on the right track with what you are trying to say?

I'm not the one trying to say that the beast is a man or a man demon, so to speak. I don't believe that. Hawk is saying that. It's clear that it can't be a mortal man because that guy would be at least 2,000 years old by now. So, Hawk has concluded it will be a demon who appears as a man or something like that. I don't buy that explanation, though.

ShirleyFord
May 16th 2008, 10:49 AM
While I am in complete agreement that the spirit of antichrist has been alive and kicking for centuries, I can't just spiritualize away passages where Paul explicitly identifies someone coming called the "man of sin". If the "falling away" from the faith described by Paul in 2 Thess. 2:3 is an event that will really come to pass in our time and space, I can't just spiritualize the rest of the passage because it does not make any exegetical sense to do so. I also can't see how a spirit of lawlessness can stand up in the temple of God declaring himself to be God. Besides, Paul goes on to describe the "mystery of lawlessness" being "already at work" several verses later (2:7), distinguishing it from the "man of sin" to be revealed (gr: apokalupto) before the day of Christ (implying he is not already at work).

I think you would agree that it is being eisegetical to assume that the "man of sin" is the same entity as the "mystery of lawlessness".

Hawk

Do you also "assume" that the temple of God is a third temple the antichrist agrees to let the Jews build in the seven-yr. covenant he makes with them because of your "assuming" that the "he" in Daniel 9:27 is antichrist (instead of Jesus Christ the Messiah that Gabriel prophecied to Daniel that would come to his people during the 70th week) who will break the covenant after 3 1/2 years in the midst of the 70th week (instead of the crucifixion of Christ in the midst of the 70th wk.) when he goes into the holy of holies of the rebuilt third temple that causes the Jews to know that antichrist whom they have accepted and worshipped as their Promised Messiah is not Him after all and that makes the antichrist fighting mad since he knows that the Jews will no longer be worshipping him so he breaks the seven-year covenant and turns on them in obedience to the Father God and kills 2/3 if them before he can get 1/3 of them to acknowledge that Jesus indeed was and is the Jews Promised Messiah after all?

Firstfruits
May 16th 2008, 12:19 PM
I'm not the one trying to say that the beast is a man or a man demon, so to speak. I don't believe that. Hawk is saying that. It's clear that it can't be a mortal man because that guy would be at least 2,000 years old by now. So, Hawk has concluded it will be a demon who appears as a man or something like that. I don't buy that explanation, though.

Thanks for the clarification.

How would you discribe the beast in the following?

2 Thess 2:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thess 2:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

According to the following scripture the beast is not a demon or the devil, as he gets his power to do what he does from Satan the dragon.

Rev 13:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Rev 13:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev 13:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Firstfruits

John146
May 16th 2008, 02:46 PM
Thanks for the clarification.

How would you discribe the beast in the following?

2 Thess 2:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thess 2:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

According to the following scripture the beast is not a demon or the devil, as he gets his power to do what he does from Satan the dragon.

Rev 13:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Rev 13:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev 13:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Firstfruits

Can you be more specific about what you're asking me? I don't believe the beast is a demon or the devil. I also don't believe it can be a man because the beast existed before John wrote the book of Revelation (Rev 17:8). I believe it is a world kingdom or empire just like the beasts of Daniel are world kingdoms. It's Satan's world kingdom that opposes God's kingdom.

wpm
May 16th 2008, 05:54 PM
Thanks for the clarification.

How would you discribe the beast in the following?

2 Thess 2:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thess 2:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

According to the following scripture the beast is not a demon or the devil, as he gets his power to do what he does from Satan the dragon.

Rev 13:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Rev 13:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev 13:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Firstfruits

That spirit of antichrist has been operating for a long time and will one day be destroyed.

Paul