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seamus414
May 8th 2008, 02:26 PM
This may have no answer humans can grasp, but here goes:

Assumptions:
-God is eternal; he has always existed and always will exist;
-God is omnicient: he knows everything there is to know and will ever be to know and has always known it. Therefore, God has always known how history will play out;


Therefore:
-As God has always known how history will play out: humans have always existed in God's conscioueness. There was never a time when humans did not exist in the mind of God;
-Jesus has always been, at some level, conscious that he was/is/will be a human for part of his existence;
-Jesus has always known he will serve to be the redeemer of humanity;

Comments on the above? What do you thinK?


Another idea:
-has Jesus always been a human being - that is, before he was born by the Blessed Virgin Mary?

Athanasius
May 8th 2008, 02:54 PM
I don't see what you're looking for answers to, other than the last line? Oh, and before I forget to mention. There is, I would think, a difference between actually existing and existing in God's mind. There may never have been a time where God didn't know about humanity, but there was most certainly at time when humanity didn't exist.

Annnnnnnnnd I can't answer what form Jesus was before he became incarnate (or if he was always incarnate). But I will say that the Son, being God, would have probably known his function in the trinity and creation. Now how much of that knowledge carried over to Jesus Christ, God incarnate, I wouldn't know. Obviously he knew God's will for his life, but was it something he knew since birth, or something the Spirit revealed through him later on, because of his relationship with the Father.

Rullion Green
May 8th 2008, 03:06 PM
I don't see what you're looking for answers to, other than the last line?

The post is for thoughts and comment...... not answers.

Athanasius
May 8th 2008, 03:11 PM
The post is for thoughts and comment...... not answers.

Ah, the line "This may have no answer humans can grasp, but here goes" throw me off.

Rullion Green
May 8th 2008, 03:14 PM
Ah, the line "This may have no answer humans can grasp, but here goes" throw me off.

Easy mistake but the line "comment on the above ? what do you think ?" should have cleared it up.

DaveS
May 8th 2008, 06:33 PM
This may have no answer humans can grasp, but here goes:

Assumptions:
-God is eternal; he has always existed and always will exist;
-God is omnicient: he knows everything there is to know and will ever be to know and has always known it. Therefore, God has always known how history will play out;


Therefore:
-As God has always known how history will play out: humans have always existed in God's conscioueness. There was never a time when humans did not exist in the mind of God;
-Jesus has always been, at some level, conscious that he was/is/will be a human for part of his existence;
-Jesus has always known he will serve to be the redeemer of humanity;

Comments on the above? What do you thinK?


Another idea:
-has Jesus always been a human being - that is, before he was born by the Blessed Virgin Mary?

As to the last point...

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

...so I would have to say, No, Jesus was not always a human being.

As for the rest I have to agree with Xel'Naga. Existing in the mind of God and actually being created are two different things. Yes, God always knew that He would create, but it didn't happen until "...God said, Let there be..."

moonglow
May 8th 2008, 07:01 PM
The post is for thoughts and comment...... not answers.
This poster DID ask a question:
-has Jesus always been a human being - that is, before he was born by the Blessed Virgin Mary?


Asking for thoughts and comments is asking a question anyway. When I ask for that on my post I welcome corrections even answers...that is what commenting means. I really don't understand why this bothers you so much..the way it was responded too..it bothers me that you are telling people how to reply to someone's post though.


So back on topic:


seamus414
crazy time/space question
This may have no answer humans can grasp, but here goes:

You are a human and thought of it so why couldn't we answer it as humans?


Assumptions:
-God is eternal; he has always existed and always will exist;
-God is omnicient: he knows everything there is to know and will ever be to know and has always known it. Therefore, God has always known how history will play out;

True.


Therefore:
-As God has always known how history will play out: humans have always existed in God's conscioueness. There was never a time when humans did not exist in the mind of God;


the idea of us existed in His mind sure...like the idea of my son existed before I conceived him.


-Jesus has always been, at some level, conscious that he was/is/will be a human for part of his existence;

Not sure what you mean by Jesus knowing at 'some level in his conscious' He would be human. He is God..so always knew.


-Jesus has always known he will serve to be the redeemer of humanity;

True.


Comments on the above? What do you thinK?


Another idea:
-has Jesus always been a human being - that is, before he was born by the Blessed Virgin Mary?

I can't answer that...there are many that think references to the Lord in the OT where He was interacting with people, was in fact, Jesus Himself. But we know angels can appear looking like human beings, so whether Jesus just appeared that way, but wasn't yet...I don't know. Good question though.

On the time/space idea though, Einstein thought with the time/space a person traveling at the right speed could come back around and meet himself again, but they would be older then the first one that left and made the loop.

http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/NumRel/NumRelHome.html
In 1905, Albert Einstein published his famous Special Theory of Relativity and overthrew commonsense assumptions about space and time. Relative to the observer, both are altered near the speed of light: distances appear to stretch; clocks tick more slowly.
**********************************************
Revelation 13

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Was Jesus slain as the Lamb BEFORE the world was created...? Possibly, if Einstein is right and we are on this space/loop. While it was a past event then, it was still a future event for us! Now that sets the mind boggling...:lol:

God bless

Reynolds357
May 8th 2008, 07:57 PM
This may have no answer humans can grasp, but here goes:

Assumptions:
-God is eternal; he has always existed and always will exist;
-God is omnicient: he knows everything there is to know and will ever be to know and has always known it. Therefore, God has always known how history will play out;


Therefore:
-As God has always known how history will play out: humans have always existed in God's conscioueness. There was never a time when humans did not exist in the mind of God;
-Jesus has always been, at some level, conscious that he was/is/will be a human for part of his existence;
-Jesus has always known he will serve to be the redeemer of humanity;

Comments on the above? What do you thinK?


Another idea:
-has Jesus always been a human being - that is, before he was born by the Blessed Virgin Mary?

Are you leading into one of these "If God is all powerful, can He create a rock so big he can not pick it up" Questions?

Rullion Green
May 8th 2008, 09:19 PM
This poster DID ask a question:


Asking for thoughts and comments is asking a question anyway. When I ask for that on my post I welcome corrections even answers...that is what commenting means. I really don't understand why this bothers you so much..the way it was responded too..it bothers me that you are telling people how to reply to someone's post though.




I wasn't telling anyone how to answer a post.

Seems to me people can't share a thought, without people taking it apart. Asking for thoughts and comments isn't the same as asking a specific question.

I didn't know there was guru's here that knew everything, if so i would have kept my mouth shut.

Anyway am outa here, dont think i'm cut out for this

Oma
May 9th 2008, 04:08 AM
This may have no answer humans can grasp, but here goes:

Assumptions:
-God is eternal; he has always existed and always will exist;
-God is omnicient: he knows everything there is to know and will ever be to know and has always known it. Therefore, God has always known how history will play out;


Therefore:
-As God has always known how history will play out: humans have always existed in God's conscioueness. There was never a time when humans did not exist in the mind of God;
-Jesus has always been, at some level, conscious that he was/is/will be a human for part of his existence;
-Jesus has always known he will serve to be the redeemer of humanity;

Comments on the above? What do you thinK?


Another idea:
-has Jesus always been a human being - that is, before he was born by the Blessed Virgin Mary?


Interesting topic!
Would you agree that: God has always known how history will play out because He ordained everything that happens in history which is actually His Story? Acts 2:23

Gulah Papyrus
May 9th 2008, 04:42 AM
This may have no answer humans can grasp, but here goes:

Assumptions:
-God is eternal; he has always existed and always will exist;
-God is omnicient: he knows everything there is to know and will ever be to know and has always known it. Therefore, God has always known how history will play out;


Therefore:
-As God has always known how history will play out: humans have always existed in God's conscioueness. There was never a time when humans did not exist in the mind of God;
-Jesus has always been, at some level, conscious that he was/is/will be a human for part of his existence;
-Jesus has always known he will serve to be the redeemer of humanity;

Comments on the above? What do you thinK?


Another idea:
-has Jesus always been a human being - that is, before he was born by the Blessed Virgin Mary?This thread took a strange turn right out of the gate.

God is all knowing meaning there is nothing he can learn so yes, i guess we 'were always on his mind...we were always on his mind' .

The rub comes when considering that eternity isn't endless time as much as it is a lack of time so to try to define 'before creation' using what we know as time is, well, impossible. In other words we were always on his mind but that doesn't mean that 'always' indicates a certain length of time...because there wasn't measurable time as we know it, :confused Let me try that again, I don't believe God has ever existed apart from the love he has for you and I. Does that work?

No Jesus was not always human, but he has always been the son of God...I think?:hmm::rolleyes::rofl:

mikebr
May 9th 2008, 11:57 AM
The problem may be our concept of time. Time was created? or was it? Therefore God existed before time and outside time. God has always been a creator. Its part of who he is. Try to imagine things He created before He created time. When two physical properties are created time becomes a necessity. (distance necessitates time)So if God created before He created time the things He created could not have been physical as we know it. Therefore there are many things that are and have been created that we can have no concept of. God was doing something 100 billion trillion years ago. What was it?

Uruguay
May 9th 2008, 12:19 PM
Assumptions:
-God is eternal; he has always existed and always will exist;
-God is omnicient: he knows everything there is to know and will ever be to know and has always known it. Therefore, God has always known how history will play out;

Therefore:
-As God has always known how history will play out: humans have always existed in God's conscioueness. There was never a time when humans did not exist in the mind of God;Yes, I'd agree with this statement. Everything that exists is a part of God's plan by virtue of it existing (for he had the power to create everything and the forethought on how it'd turn out). If something that occurred was not a part of God's plan, it would not be able to exist unless God were not all powerful and all knowing, and that's just silly (for argument's sake, free will is a part of God's plan, and we can decide in opposition of God because he planned for free will, so there's no contradictions there).

-Jesus has always been, at some level, conscious that he was/is/will be a human for part of his existence;This doesn't follow from what you laid out. God has always been aware of Jesus' role, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Jesus was always fully aware of his role. An argument could be made about the holy trinity, and how Jesus IS God IS the Holy Spirit, but there are still differences between the three (Jesus is corporeal and the Holy Spirit is not, for instance). I'm not saying that Jesus couldn't have known of God's plan (and realistically, he probably did know). I'm just saying that your logic does not flow cleanly from point A to point B here.

-Jesus has always known he will serve to be the redeemer of humanity;Again, this doesn't necessarily follow from what you laid out either. Same reasons as above. I personally figure that it's likely, but the two assumptions that you started with don't lead to Jesus holding the same knowledge as God.

Another idea:
-has Jesus always been a human being - that is, before he was born by the Blessed Virgin Mary?Umm ... sure? My personal opinion is that he's more than human, genetic divinity does that I'm told, but he's not on the same level as God or the Holy Spirit. That being said, he's perfect for what he had to do (delivery of a message, mortality so he can rise again, divine spirit so he can cleanse the world, etc.). God likely wouldn't have accomplished the same thing so finely because He tends to be TOO powerful a force, and the Holy Spirit ... well ... does the Holy Spirit actually DO anything?

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

ProjectPeter
May 9th 2008, 02:00 PM
I wasn't telling anyone how to answer a post.

Seems to me people can't share a thought, without people taking it apart. Asking for thoughts and comments isn't the same as asking a specific question.

I didn't know there was guru's here that knew everything, if so i would have kept my mouth shut.

Anyway am outa here, dont think i'm cut out for thisActually... let's just point out how this worked.

Xel shared his thoughts. You took it apart by jumping in with the "not looking for answers, just thoughts and comments." So... funny how things work and where you are correct is that some folks just aren't cut out for this. That happens so don't sweat it. :)

moonglow
May 9th 2008, 02:17 PM
The problem may be our concept of time. Time was created? or was it? Therefore God existed before time and outside time. God has always been a creator. Its part of who he is. Try to imagine things He created before He created time. When two physical properties are created time becomes a necessity. (distance necessitates time)So if God created before He created time the things He created could not have been physical as we know it. Therefore there are many things that are and have been created that we can have no concept of. God was doing something 100 billion trillion years ago. What was it?

You are correct! God created time. :) When we had the big bang (which I think lines up nicely with the creation story in Genesis) time did not exist then. At least not in the way we understand time. We cannot even grasp the idea of existing without time! All we know is, beginning, middle and end. Everything in our world is born...has a middle, then ends, dies. For a long time they thought the universe was timeless...had no beginning therefore could have no end (we know there will be an end cause the bible says so...:lol:) Of course no one believed us crazy Christians were right in saying the universe had a beginning....but thanks to Einstein, we now know it did indeed have a beginning and if something has a beginning it will have an end to it. So time exist like this for us. But now they are discovering time is alot more flexible then anyone every imaged. And that there may be different types of time in which of course God exist.

I think for God time as we know it, just isn't a factor. There is no passage of time for Him before He created us...no 100 billion trillion years ago for Him. Until that is, He created time.

God bless

RogerW
May 9th 2008, 02:40 PM
This may have no answer humans can grasp, but here goes:

Assumptions:
-God is eternal; he has always existed and always will exist;
-God is omnicient: he knows everything there is to know and will ever be to know and has always known it. Therefore, God has always known how history will play out;


Therefore:
-As God has always known how history will play out: humans have always existed in God's conscioueness. There was never a time when humans did not exist in the mind of God;
-Jesus has always been, at some level, conscious that he was/is/will be a human for part of his existence;
-Jesus has always known he will serve to be the redeemer of humanity;

Comments on the above? What do you thinK?


Another idea:
-has Jesus always been a human being - that is, before he was born by the Blessed Virgin Mary?

Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
Zec 6:13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Zechariah is prophesying about the coming of the Branch, the Messiah, and the conversation is between the Branch who takes his place as a priest on his throne, and the Lord. God is here providing the way in which He will redeem men before the foundation of the world. He does this by divine oath. Christ is to be priest. He is to be the sacrafice for sin and the priest who continually intercedes for those for whom he dies. Here the Son is ratified by oath to make the Counsel of Peace effectual, and this before the foundation of the world. Since this was done in eternity past clearly God's plan to redeem a people for Himself existed before time began.

How does Christ fulfill the oath made in heaven before time began?

Mt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

His eternal plan was published in heaven before time began. Even though Christ existed in heaven with the Father in eternity past, He always knew He would come to earth as a man to redeem human kind and save an elect people for Himself. These were chosen before time began, and all who are chosen have been written in the Lamb's Book of Life before creation.

Many Blessings,
RW

seamus414
May 12th 2008, 09:15 PM
Some of you have pointed out that God is outside of time. I agree.

Although difficult to think about, I think that the aliens in the book "Slaughterhouse 5" offer a good description of being outside of time. In the book the main character, Billy Pilgrim, becomes "unstuck" in time and experinces being outside of time on a small scale. In the book the aliens do not have linear time, therefore they are constantly in the presence of the past, present, and future. It is all "present" for them.

I think the aliens in the book are how God is in real life. It is all present. Therefore, Jesus is always a human from his view?

Thoughts on the above?

Gulah Papyrus
May 12th 2008, 09:48 PM
A good friend of mine in HS had a band called Billy Pilgrim.

I think you are right on with your post.